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Fed Audit's Initial Report Reveals Trillions in Secret Loans

An anonymous reader writes "The first top-to-bottom audit of the Federal Reserve uncovered eye-popping new details about how the U.S. provided a whopping $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression."

499 comments

  1. Ron Paul 2012 by rcb1974 · · Score: 4, Funny

    nuff said.

    1. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dennis Kucinich is the left-wing equivalent. Both Kucinich and Paul are vocal about the Fed and its parasitic relationship to national economies. It is for that reason that I know they can be trusted.

    2. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Kenja · · Score: 4, Insightful

      True, reverting to the gold standard would greatly excelerate our fall into third world nation status. But I just dont see why that's a desirable thing.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    3. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Specifically how?

    4. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rubycodez · · Score: 2, Funny

      We became a superpower while on the gold standard; your statement is absurd.

    5. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      You do realize that it was Bernie Sanders, not Paul, who ordered this audit, right? You know, Sanders (S-VT), where "S" is the Socialist Party of Vermont?

    6. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      True, reverting to the gold standard would greatly excelerate our fall into third world nation status. But I just dont see why that's a desirable thing.

      Pros and cons of a gold standard aside I just don't understand this argument.

      The US was, to a certain extent, on the gold standard until the early 1970s

      Are you telling me that a 3rd World country landed men on the moon?!

    7. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Oh+Gawwd+Peak+Oil · · Score: 1

      Or, say, Bernie Sanders, who ordered this audit.

    8. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, let's see, gold was trading for around $350 an ounce not too long ago, and it's now well over $1,000 per ounce. Basically, that would have us living with what, 200% inflation? Why would you peg your entire economy to some random mineral? Remember when two clowns in Texas came very close to virtually cornering the global silver market? If some one creates a way to artifically produce gold on a vast scale, then what? It's already happened with diamonds, but there's no cartel to protect gold prices.

    9. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Or maybe the guy who actually did this?
      You know Bernie Sanders, or as Paulites would refer to him "teh ebil Socialist."

      Ron Paul gets a lot of credit for doing a whole lot of nothing.

    10. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hahahahaha...no we didn't actually...our super status was not really sealed until after WWII. We all know that we began to move off of the gold standard under Roosevelt, but still had some of our money supply backed up by gold reserves. Moving off of the gold standard was what allowed our economy to grow exponentially after WW2. This is a simplistic explanation as it is much more involved than that. We were a player on the world stage, but not really what you would deem a super power.

    11. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rcb1974 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      What we need is a fiat monetary system (not the gold standard, which will just make the depression worse due to natural scarcity of gold) where the amount of currency in the system (and hence its value) is controlled by a computer. The computer simply raises the tax rate in order to "destroy" currency and prevent inflation, or issues new currency in order to prevent deflation. The computer could simply use an HONEST CPI value that is continously measured in order to decide whether or not to create or destroy currency. Fiat currency could be "destroyed" (removed from the system) through taxation, which would raise money for the government, and then the government could spend it to pay for its expenses and also to prevent deflation.

      It should be forbidden in our constitution to BORROW money that is created out of thin air by a privately held organization such as the Federal Reserve Bank (which pays no taxes BTW!). That is simply insane. Woodrow Wilson was incredibly naive and foolish to sign the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

    12. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by 2muchcoffeeman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The gold standard is overrated. The longer a country stayed on the gold standard during the Great Depression, the longer it took that country to get out of the Great Depression.
       
      As this article notes,

      ... 13 other countries besides the U.K. had decided to abandon their currencies' gold parity in 1931. Bernanke and James' data for the average growth rate of industrial production for these countries (plotted in the top panel above) was positive in every year from 1932 on. Countries that stayed on gold, by contrast, experienced an average output decline of 15% in 1932. The U.S. abandoned gold in 1933, after which its dramatic recovery immediately began. The same happened after Italy dropped the gold standard in 1934, and for Belgium when it went off in 1935. On the other hand, the three countries that stuck with gold through 1936 (France, Netherlands, and Poland) saw a 6% drop in industrial production in 1935, while the rest of the world was experiencing solid growth.

      A gold standard only works when everybody believes in the overall fiscal and monetary responsibility of the major world governments and the relative price of gold is fairly stable.

      Enough with the gold standard nonsense already.

      --
      Prevent Windows piracy. Use Linux instead.
    13. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by NevarMore · · Score: 0, Troll

      Ron Paul gets a lot of credit for doing a whole lot of nothing.

      Its because he's doing exactly what most of us want him, our legislators, and government to do.

    14. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Noughmad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, let's see, gold was trading for around $350 an ounce not too long ago, and it's now well over $1,000 per ounce. Basically, that would have us living with what, 200% inflation?

      No, it's the other way round. If a commodity that used to cost $350 now costs $1.000, that means that dollars had 200% inflation in that time period.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    15. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by cpu6502 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Our present paper-based system has devalued by grandfather's savings by 1/100th its previous buying power. i.e. A wool suit that cost $5 in 1920 costs $500 today.

      I'd rather have the solidity of a Gold system that can not destroy people's savings via rampant running of the printing presses. Ownership of half an ounce of gold will buy 1 suit, whether its 2010 or 1910 or 1810. Gold has a fixed value. Paper does not.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    16. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smelch · · Score: 0

      Our currency more than doubling in value is what you consider inflation? Are you... oh... you're posting AC. Nevermind. If filling out a registration form is too taxing for you, which-number-is-biggeristics is way too advanced. Knowing when to properly apply the concept is even harder than that. No, even economics 101 is out of your reach.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    17. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      You mean let whatever goes on around him just happen?

      By doing nothing I do not mean preventing laws from passing or making sure the government does nothing. I mean just lets the rest of his party do whatever they want.

    18. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To support this post above, using a gold standard will cause Deflation. Which unlike Inflation, is much harder to control. I realize that Wikipedia isn't the best source to educate yourself, but it is a start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation

    19. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Alchemy does not exist. Producing gold with a nuclear reaction is not feasible, and definitely not profitable considering the energy states required.

    20. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      I'd rather have the solidity of a Gold system that can not destroy people's savings via rampant running of the printing presses.

      How would it stop that? The Government can just change the exchange rate of their currency to gold whenever they feel. Which is what governments on gold standards have done.

      Ownership of half an ounce of gold will buy 1 suit, whether its 2010 or 1910 or 1810. Gold has a fixed value. Paper does not.

      Fixed value? Since when? Gold has had numerous booms and busts in its value.

    21. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by msauve · · Score: 1

      "Well, let's see, gold was trading for around $350 an ounce not too long ago, and it's now well over $1,000 per ounce. Basically, that would have us living with what, 200% inflation? "

      If you had an ounce of gold (or the equivalent in gold backed currency) "not too long ago," it bought 350 loaves of bread, now it would buy over 1000. You don't know what inflation is.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    22. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your grandfather should have invested that money not hoarded it.
      Inflation is good in that it encourages spending.

    23. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      And by "most of us" you mean a small minority of right-wing whackjobs, right? Because most of us don't want a government that does nothing.

    24. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

      True, reverting to the gold standard would greatly excelerate our fall into third world nation status. But I just dont see why that's a desirable thing.

      I believe reverting to the gold standard is not how you fix the mess we are in. First we have to clean house and start building industry and jobs first. There are a lot of people out there that WANT to work. We also need to determine a better way to give incentives to bring back all those jobs that were outsourced. You can't just give tax cuts without a clearly defined goal of returning more people to the workforce. This is the first thing Obama should have done instead of the health care bill that most voters didn't even see a benefit from. Once you bring industry back and get people working you can start to make a dent in the deficit (trade and fiscal). Only then should we contemplate going back on the gold standard. No one wins if we go broke because we can't pay our bills. Both parties have to drop thier idealism and get back to work.

      --
      "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
    25. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by newcastlejon · · Score: 3, Informative

      If some one creates a way to artifically produce gold on a vast scale, then what? It's already happened with diamonds, but there's no cartel to protect gold prices.

      For accuracy's sake I should say that artificial gold is a practical impossibility until we have cheap transmutation; diamonds are just a form of common carbon, while gold is made of precious gold. To answer your specific question of what might happen when we have the technology to cheaply create synthetic gold, I can only imagine: our economies might well have moved past physical scarcity by that point in time.

      Perhaps you should have been thinking about cheaply extracting the gold that already exists on Earth. Getting it from seawater is an idea that I've heard mentioned a few times and if that were possible then the price of what is basically just an expensive commodity would plummet, so naturally basing a currency on it would be a Bad Thing. Until that happens I've no idea why the gold standard is bad but then again I don't know how to cast the bones like an economist.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    26. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woodrow Wilson was incredibly naive and foolish to sign the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
      Yaaaaa I'm sure it was an act of ignorance and foolishness that passed the act. You think that was an accident?

    27. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      You touch on my fundamental objection to returning to the gold standard. SInce gold is a finite commodity, with both a finite amount available at any time and a finite amount EVER available, it is a significantly limiting factor to economic growth. Scarcity leads to inflation, and collapse doesn't solve anything regarding the currency.

      The solution isn't to tie currency to something, it's to control the Fractional Reserve

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    28. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Got news for you, before WWII, our solders pointed broomsticks at cars ("tanks") and said, "eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh", to simulate firing an imaginary weapon. During WWI, gunners trained by using their finger and pointing at imaginary targets while spinning in a swivel chair. The US absolutely did NOT become a super power until after the close of WWII. And in large part, that was thanks to the Germans (including Nazis) absorbed by the US.

    29. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      hahahahaha...no we didn't actually...our super status was not really sealed until after WWII. We all know that we began to move off of the gold standard under Roosevelt, but still had some of our money supply backed up by gold reserves. Moving off of the gold standard was what allowed our economy to grow exponentially after WW2. This is a simplistic explanation as it is much more involved than that. We were a player on the world stage, but not really what you would deem a super power.

      It had nothing to do with us and everything to do with the rest of the industrialized world being leveled during WWII while our factories were still operational. In it's superior productivity position, the US basically strong-armed implementation of the Bretton Woods system that essentially set international trade pegged to the dollar, part of which was swallowed because it was pegged to gold, which the US was holding onto since, during the war, wealthy nations during the war had shipped it there for safe keeping.

      Essentially, the US stole the world's gold reserves by exchanging it for dollars and under the Bretton Woods formed World Bank, pegged all trade to the US dollar by pegging all foreign currencies to the US dollar. Then we changed the ounces of gold per dollar. Then we eliminated all pretext and made the dollar pure fiat... now that vital commodities like oil were traded in, yep, US dollars.

      The superpower status of the US was as much a scam as the USSR's superpower status, except we actually managed to steal much of the world's wealth while the USSR was too deluded by the communism illusion to admit they had nothing.

    30. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Except other currencies have been relatively stable with the dollar.

      And before you start saying "well, they had 200% inflation too!", they didn't, because the prices of non-gold commodities didn't go up by the same amount. Gold is in a bubble.

    31. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by dkleinsc · · Score: 5, Informative

      Here's the deal on this: Ron Paul is one of the minority in Congress who actually believes what he's saying and isn't for sale. It's actually not unusual for him to ally himself with the likes of Bernie Sanders (S-VT) and Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), because he will come to the same conclusions they do for completely different reasons. For instance, Kucinich and Paul have worked together trying to stop the war in Libya. Dennis is against it for typical liberal peacenik reasons like thinking it immoral to bomb people who present no threat to the United States. Ron is against it because he thinks of big military spending as tax-and-spend big government.

      Now, Paul has been pushing "audit the Fed" from a conservative angle for years. Sanders, on the other hand, actually managed to get it into law. Kudos to both of them for making the right decision.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    32. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by vajrabum · · Score: 2

      Fascinating that you didn't seem to notice that this came from Bernie Sanders who's the only self described democratic socialist in the national legislature. Unlike Ron Paul there's no indication at all that Bernie Sanders is a racist (http://www.realchange.org/ronpaul.htm).

    33. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Ahh.

      You fear an economy that could be ruined by the dreams of the mediaeval alchemyste.

      Bravo.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    34. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rubycodez · · Score: 3, Informative

      no nonsense, U.S. went off the gold standard in 1973. The Depression had everything to do with self-referential paper pyramid scams, same as recession of now. Quit being a shill for the banking cartel parasites who have been draining our wealth.

    35. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      Our currency more than doubling in value is what you consider inflation? Are you... oh... you're posting AC. Nevermind. If filling out a registration form is too taxing for you, which-number-is-biggeristics is way too advanced. Knowing when to properly apply the concept is even harder than that. No, even economics 101 is out of your reach.

      Don't be mean; the guy just used the wrong sign in his head.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    36. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How????

      The simple math is that a gold standard would boost the dollars value. People would trust dollars in all countries knowing that they could be traded in for gold. Right now, our economy is strong because we have an Oil Standard. Not a government guarantee but the oil market is traded in US Dollars. Don't worry their only a lot of talk about switch to ether Euros or some sort of shared reserve currency and the administration being internationalists has nothing against this threat to US Economy. Gold would kill the Federal Reserve, since they could not issue new money without actual obtaining more gold. The Federal reserve issues new money without even print it. It has to in-order to fuck interest rates. Investor return on interest rates needs to beat inflation by about 1% to 2%. In a country with "easy money" you have lots of "easy waste." Loans are given to people who can't repay them, Businesses are given loans for projects that won't return more value.

      Runs are banks are only a problem when banks do not a have sane reservers along with some sort of Goverment Insurence on people's deposites. Yes, it would slow down the US Econemy to not have "easy money" but the truth is that it would really only slow down the bubbles, all those get rich quick wall street guy might have to find real jobs or just be happy with a small but steady return. The next step to a stable econemy is to slowly pull back the safty nets Not remove them but make it unpleseant to relie on. At the same time one needs to almost enforce saving, put an end to this spend your whole paycheck every month montalety, People need to build their own safty nets. Right now people don't know where to put their money, a bank doesn't want it. (the interset on CDs are a joke.) WallStreet is over valued. You should be able buy at P/E ratio that a company might actually justife one day. Right now, if some asks me how to save, I'll tell them it doesn't pay unless you have enough saved to go with good mutal fund. We need to correct this or it will correct it self in the long run.

    37. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      What economy couldn't be ruined by the dreams of the mediaeval alchemyste? You think the EU or China are in any better position to weather the changes resulting from Eternal Youth? Maybe the Hopi...

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    38. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, better to let the federal reserve continue to inflate your hard-earned dollars until you whine about how gas is $10/gallon and blame it all on the evil oil companies and speculators.

    39. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Since we went off the gold standard in 1973, your little fun history lesson of increased manufacturing capacity in WW II is pointless.

    40. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Palpatine_li · · Score: 1

      I wish someone would give you a troll mod. Hard assertion without shit to back it up.

    41. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by es330td · · Score: 1

      Getting it from seawater is an idea that I've heard mentioned a few times and if that were possible

      Hartson Brant figured this out back in 1947. (Just checking to see how many people know this reference.)

    42. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by KhabaLox · · Score: 2

      our economies might well have moved past physical scarcity by that point in time.

      Umm... they already have with fiat currency.

      Or do you mean our economy as a whole, i.e. the trading of goods and services, would move beyond scarcity? I don't see how that is possible. Value is intrinsically linked to scarcity.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    43. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that adjusted for inflation? The fiat currency supplies would have gone up while gold stayed the same. So if production goes up, the fiat currencies can maintain a 1:1 of widgets to dollars, whereas that ratio would drop for widgets to gold. Without factoring the currency and gold supplies, I don't think you can claim the gold economies shrunk.

    44. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Xaositecte · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Both are pretty bad actually.

      Gold is valuable as a currency because it looks pretty, doesn't have many industrial uses, is difficult to counterfeit, and cannot be created infinitely by the controlling authority. There's no artificial scarcity involved with gold like their is with paper money. Classically, staying on the gold standard was a good idea because almost every attempt to create a paper currency throughout history ended in the controlling authority (the monarchy usually, the Fed and congress in our case) printing more money to cover their debts until inflation rendered the currency worthless.

      Unfortunately, when the population and economy expand, the money supply has to expand with it. When administered responsibly (I.E. not just printing more money to cover debts), a paper money supply can be controlled much more finely. The gold supply expands in a fairly unpredictable way, controlled by how fast mining can be done, which can be completely unrelated to current economic conditions.

      Basically, if you have a responsible and knowledgeable administrator, fiat currency can be superior to the gold standard. If you have an irresponsible administrator, fiat currency can and will turn into economic doomsday.

    45. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by tombeard · · Score: 1

      $800 buys 1 Oz of gold in 2008
      $800 buys 1/2 Oz of gold in 2011
      $1 saved from 2008 now equal to $0.50
      Inflation is bad, dollars are not a good store of value. They don't rot as fast as potatoes but almost.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    46. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes.

      A currency based on valuable commodity is much more foolish than one based on un-payable debt, sustained only through inflation and growth-for-growth's-sake.

      I fail to find any intellectually sound argument that can establish the difference between a fiat money that is valued by debt, and a Ponzi pyramid, other than the differential factor of inflation.

      Every economist who has looked at the mathematics of compound interest has pointed out that in the end, debts cannot be paid.

      Every rate of interest can be viewed in terms of the time that it takes for a debt to double. At 5%, a debt doubles in 14.5 years; at 7 percent, in 10 years; at 10 percent, in 7 years. As early as 2000 BC in Babylonia, scribal accountants were trained to calculate how loans principal doubled in five years at the then-current equivalent of 20% annually (1/60th per month for 60 months). "How long does it take a debt to multiply 64 times?" a student exercise asked. The answer is, 30 years -- 6 doubling times.

      We Have Forgotten What the Ancient Sumerians and Babylonians, the Early Jews and Christians, the Founding Fathers and Even Napoleon Bonaparte Knew About Money

      Money As Debt - Full Length Documentary

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    47. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by msauve · · Score: 1

      "Superpower" doesn't have to mean military power. In 1870, the UK was the indisputable superpower, and had a GDP of ~$100 billion 1990 International Dollars. The US had a GDP of ~$98 billion. By 1913, the US GDP had grown over 5x, to ~$517 billion, while the UK was at $224 billion and the second largest economy in the world.

      You want to try again to explain how the US didn't become a superpower until after WW2 (and further, to answer the GP, how the US wasn't already a superpower in 1971, the year it went off the gold standard)?

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    48. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your grandfather should have invested that money not hoarded it.
      Inflation is good in that it encourages spending.

      When you conflate "spending" with "investing" you personify the country's failure to educate its population.

    49. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by nschubach · · Score: 1

      You can't bring back industry to the US without imposing huge tariffs. People here will not work for wages that they will in China. You have to take away some of the powers of unions and allow companies to actually fire workers that are not working. The only real way to have manufacturing here is to promote robotics (which would make robot repair jobs, but not create the four jobs that one robot replaced) or reduce the amount of acceptable income the employees can take in to stay competitive.

      I'm really curious how you'd expect The President to promote industry as well. For one, it's the Executive branch. They don't create laws or set policy (or shouldn't.) The primary goal of said branch is execute the law.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    50. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by HeckRuler · · Score: 1, Funny

      It'll be hilarious to see their souls crushed when it pops though. That's right, Glen Beck lied. Gee, what were the odds?

    51. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by tombeard · · Score: 2

      No it wouldn't. The price of bread doubled when the value of dollars dropped by half. Ribeye steaks cost $12/lb at my grocery, 3 years ago they cost $6. You are supposing a gold based currency which is the opposite of what we have. 1 Oz of gold used to buy $800, now it buy $1600 thus the cost or value of the doller is now half what ti was 3 years ago. Good if you are paying back loans, bad if you had money in the bank. Irrelevant if you had gold.

      --
      The reason we subjugate ourselves to law is to better procure justice. If law does not accomplish this purpose then it m
    52. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you're hiding that money under a bed, it's getting reinvested by whatever bank you gave it to. That's why they're prepared to give you interest on it.

    53. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      impressive how ignorant that is. Scarcity leads to inflation? So you would not object to making plenty of dollar bills available? e.g. Print up $1bn per human being in the world, and then give it to each person? You've got it the wrong way around. A scarce number of dollars due to the convertibility to gold would mean falling prices of everything else in terms of dollars.

    54. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by nschubach · · Score: 1

      How would you have him "prevent" someone from voting a particular way? He already speaks in front of an empty room (because nobody is there) and he votes against the bills that he feels should not be Federal affairs or are in violation of what he feels his constituents want.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    55. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      LOL. The idea that the US pulled out of the great depression in 1933 is hilarious. We didn't get out of the great depression until the 1940's, when all of our able bodies workers went off to die, resulting a deficiency of employable bodies back home, with reduced the employment rate and increased wages. Also: People spent BOATLOADS of money to compete with the russians and to rebuild europe. So that's why we got out of the depression. The gold standard had basically nothing to do with it.

    56. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by msauve · · Score: 1

      Whoosh.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    57. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rcb1974 · · Score: 1

      I think he meant to say scarcity leads to deflation not inflation.

    58. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, if you try to see which country is in very deep shit right now......: US, Italy, Belgium (is this country actually a country!!!!).........
      Lets see now, the countries that are still vibrant: France, Netherland, Poland.....................
      For who are the bells ringing?

    59. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rhook · · Score: 1

      Why did this post get modded troll?

    60. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by moj0joj0 · · Score: 1

      Excelerate? I think you mean this Oh, and by the way, you are mistaken in your assessment of the United States declining into the '3rd world' as well. I suggest that you do a bit more reading on the topic. If we were on the gold standard the US dollar would currently be worth more that any other currency in the world.

    61. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It depends on how you measure growth, and frankly your quoted statement is foolish.

      GDP is a crappy metric in a case like this, and I would argue that the "growth" was largely the result of price increase from monetary inflation as well as destructive practices (FDR had millions of cattle slaughtered and thrown out simply to drive up the price because it was too low).

      If the "dramatic recovery" was actual, why did it take over 8 more years for the depression to end?

      Yes it's true, you can inflate the hell out of a fiat currency. Some will say inflation = growth. That doesn't address the actual creation/destruction of wealth nor does it address quality of life.

    62. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fixed value? Since when? Gold has had numerous booms and busts in its value.

      Yes, but relative to what? Other currencies. Supply and demand applies to currencies, too. If some bank / country is pumping all of their money into buying US bonds, or Yen or Swiss Francs, or whatever, they obviously can't buy gold with the same capitol. So, the price of gold goes down.

      Unlike all other currencies, the only viable way to produce more gold is to dig the stinking stuff out of the ground and refine it into a known and trade-able quantity.

    63. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Amouth · · Score: 1

      except the interest they give you is no where near the inflation rate or anywhere near the value of it.

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    64. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THANK YOU! You are the Common Sense Messiah we have been waiting for!

      PLEASE don't go away! 2012 is going to be a loooooooong year.

    65. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by MiniMike · · Score: 2

      We also became a superpower without the internet; bye now!

    66. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      Our money is controlled by the Federal Reserve, a for profit, privately owned financial institution. Every dollar that is printed equals more than a dollar in debt to the Federal Reserve. They're the main reason we are in the mess that we are in now, we need to go back to the silver standard. JFK attempted to do this and was assassinated for doing so. Fiat currency only exists to line bankers pockets.

    67. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Znork · · Score: 3, Informative

      Inflation is only easy to control if you get to define 'inflation' to mean whatever you feel like. As in "something went up in price so we'll make up an excuse to exclude it - see we have no inflation". Or "oh, beef got more expensive, but eh, people will eat processed dog instead so their meals got no more expensive - see, we have no inflation".

      Perhaps, if we got accurate measurements of inflation it would be a workable model, but unless things like asset inflation get included we'll just get an endless process of bubble-crash-bubble-crash as malinvestments get stuffed into segments that are not accounted for.

      A deflationary economy would ultimately be less painful, but as it would put significant problems for stealth taxation and it would create less benefit for the economic actors closest to money creation, it is unlikely to happen.

    68. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      That's simplistic. The president is not an all-powerful deity. Voting in one guy to the presidency isn't going to clean this up, no matter how different you think he is. There are enough congressmen bought by chambers of commerce and banks to keep the gravy train going.

    69. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by astar · · Score: 1

      I am quite positive that connally, treasury secretary under nixon, had us off the gold standard in August 1971. And the people I was playing with then knew today was coming and in real time cited this even as the tolling of the bell.. Hmm, that is true, but not quite to the point. They knew 1986 was coming, but they did not realize how crazed the monetarists are. So we get wonder walls of money and everything you have come to hate. And now there are no more scams and looting and austerity that will give value to a couple quadrillion in worthless unpayable debt. And you start to get concerned new reporting in your local papers.

      I have an idea-- put glass-steagall back in. Multiple bills with significant backing to do that are in Congress right now. This would take out most of the political leadership and most of the banks internationally. But it is challenging for me to believe they are not going soon. We should chose to keep ourselves standing. G-S, put in in the 1930's and fully repealed in 1999 separates out commercial banking assets from investment banking assets--that is, speculative "value" has to stand on its own.. Think of it this way: We need to keep commercial banks going. We do not need to keep speculators and their assets around. So, the speculators need to go grow roses or something useful. Their paper assets really do not exist. And we realize this by the simple and moderate tactic of *not* supporting the fictitious values of the assets, as with your tax dollars, etc. Hey, this is why we have bankruptcy courts.

      HB 1489?comes to mind. I am pleased that my rep defazio introduced a similar and useful bill. Where is your rep on this?. I look for a link:
      http://www.larouchepac.com/node/18182

      http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.1489:

      http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:H.R.2451:

      enjoy

    70. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because USSR had nothing, they did not sell it. That's why the still have the same nothing, and no DEBT whatsoever. That was the main reason for all the BS between US and USSR, not being able to lend them paper, i mean money.

    71. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      He could do many things.
      He could always vote no, he could start his own party. He could even propose legislation to prevent that empty room.

      I figure if congresscritters can't show up for some percentage of the time, take their seat from them.

    72. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by brit74 · · Score: 1

      "In early 1933, in order to fight severe deflation Congress and President Roosevelt implemented a series of Acts of Congress and Executive Orders which suspended the gold standard except for foreign exchange, revoked gold as universal legal tender for debts, and banned private ownership of significant amounts of gold coin."
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar

    73. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Notice the country didn't need an income tax, before the creation of the Fed?

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    74. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      âoeThose who are unaware they are walking in darkness will never seek the light.â

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    75. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Zibodiz · · Score: 1

      This is insightful simply because nobody seems to notice that Ron Paul is the one who performed this audit. I do have to say that this is good timing for his political campaign -- perhaps he planned it that way?

    76. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope, the main reason is that the population of the US is financially irresponsible and the choices it makes (including political choices) reflect this attitude. You're used to easy living on other people's money. Until that problem is resolved, gold, silver or fiat money won't matter.

    77. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Considering that "going off the gold standard" in that time period is just a roundabout way of saying, "stealing the gold people were entitled to as currency holders", I think you need to show a little more than (very temporarily) puffed up economic activity to show that it was a good idea.

      In most shitty economies, you can goose the economic numbers for a few years if you loot the rich and spend the proceeds on cool stuff. (See: History of every Banana Republic.) That doesn't somehow prove that looting the rich is a good idea.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    78. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      You touched on something that I think needs a lot more attention: Gold is a mineral which is only valuable because people *perceive* it as valuable. It has very limited uses besides sitting around being shiny. Everybody I see argue for the gold standard attacks the seemingly arbitrary nature of fiat currencies when that same fiat currency is backed by the productive output of the nation that mints it. What backs gold? What are you going to turn that gold into? How much will that ounce of gold buy you when there is no industry in place to build the things you want to buy?

      --
      +1 Disagree
    79. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      "The gold standard survived, with several modifications, until 1971." -- same link

    80. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the hypothetical situation of a stanrdard-based US currency, gold-backed to be specific, and the problem of expanding the money supply. Eventually gold becomes scarce, therefore more expensive, and either the money supply can't be expanded (inflation?) or it becomes prohibitively expensive to do so (inflation?).

      Either way, the most important outcome might be lost growth.

      So, bright eyes, what would happen if a gold-backed currency could not find more gold to back it?

      Your comment, "Print up $1bn per human being in the world, and then give it to each person?", seems to indicate you didn't understand my example. Fine.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    81. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Ribeye steaks cost $12/lb at my grocery, 3 years ago they cost $6

      things_that_never_happened.txt

    82. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What planet do you live on? Gold is 4 times it's value today.

      I agree that now is a bad time to buy gold, mainly because I'm cynical and believe that by the time you start seeing ads airing on TV pitching gold investing to the masses, that's probably indicative of the beginning stages of a bubble and subsequent collapse. The people that have been hoarding gold in secret all this time (how often did you really hear people talk about investing in gold until the last few years?) know this, and are trying to cash out while the value is at it's highest by schlepping it to the people conveniently terrified of an impending financial collapse.

      We've seen the same damn thing happen with the housing market 5 years ago. You couldn't turn on the freaking TV without seeing a show about flipping houses and how everybody was making a ton of money and seminars teaching people how to do it and all that garbage. Once everybody starts really taking on ridiculous loans for houses all over the country, bang, the bubble bursts and you see where we are today.

    83. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      And before the Fed there were no nuclear weapons.

      And the World Trade Center hadn't been destroyed.

    84. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Fiat currency is a technology. We the ppl can use it to benefit us! Just think, if the Fed created $16 trillion out of thin air and there was no inflation to speak of, why can't we print the budget and empower individuals with a basic income, and fund challenges to stimulate the innovation that is the real driver of standard of living increases?

    85. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by enjerth · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, when the population and economy expand, the money supply has to expand with it.

      Does it? Numbers are infinitely divisible. We would be discussing the usefulness of the half-penny rather than the discussing doing away with the penny altogether.

      We would have a slow and steady deflation rather than inflation. The problems that creates are not necessarily worse, just different.

    86. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Let see:

      If OPEC moves the oil a certain way, gold drops, another, it rises.
      Newer extraction process lower the value of gold.
      It can fluctuate wildly on idle speculation.
      The gold standards no longer works. TO many bad actors.

      I am NOT saying the current system is sound. I am saying it is better then the previousl gold standard, for a variety of reasons.

      I wish people who talked about this would read up on why,. Yes there is a lot of dry documents that are a yawnfest. But still, it's important to not look foolish.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    87. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a limited supply of gold. Doubling in value means that those without gold would have to do more work to get anything. So yes, that's inflation.

    88. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No it wouldn't. You are foolish looking at the price of gold now and assuming that's what it would be if we where on it.
      The actor involved in gold prices are different then the one we would have if we where on the gold standard.

      If you are asking 'what actors?' then please shut the fuck up about the gold standard.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    89. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      Fear-based buying. Don't put your faith in your economy, get that gold. It's a "survivalist" mentality that only serves to make people look like idiots.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    90. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "I figure if congresscritters can't show up for some percentage of the time, take their seat from them."

      hear, hear!

      I know, 40 hours sick, 80 hours vacation and 15 holidays a year.

      Like most everyone else.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    91. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      The most that was lent out at any particular time was $1 trillion. If it had been 16 all at once there probably would have been some inflation.

    92. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by blue+trane · · Score: 1, Funny

      So the value of knowledge goes down the more there is of it?

    93. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Magius_AR · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You should look up the term "leading indicator". That's what gold is. It's an inflation HEDGE, where people put their money because they're expecting inflation will be coming. And based on the rising prices of a whole score of commodities (Corn, Coffee, Sugar, Copper, Oil, etc, etc...pick your poison), I'd say they got it right. I've little doubt these costs will eventually filter down to the consumer. Hell, I know for a fact we've already seen that in coffee prices: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-03-18-starbucks-coffee-prices.htm

      You're deluded if you don't think inflation isn't a problem. You're also nuts if you think all of these commodity spikes are somehow "speculation" driven.

    94. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Remember Lincoln printed over $400 million greenbacks in the 1860s.

    95. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Xaositecte · · Score: 2

      Eh, even if gold wasn't currency, people would still want it. It's shiny, can be made into jewelry, which can then be used to help you find a mate (getting down to the basics). If everyone one day decided to stop using gold as currency, you'd still have it as an intrinsically valuable commodity, just less valuable then when it was a currency.

      But, you're right to say that every currency (Fiat, mineral, or otherwise) is just an arbitrary token that has been agreed to be worth a certain amount of goods or services. People argue that gold is a better choice of arbitrary token then fiat currency mostly because of the aforementioned enforced scarcity. Other scarce materials that lack industrial applications would also be a good choice of currency for the same reasons.

    96. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by citylivin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "where the amount of currency in the system (and hence its value) is controlled by a computer. The computer simply raises the tax rate in order to "destroy" currency and prevent inflation"

      Whenever someone proposes that something complicated or unmanageable by human standards should be controlled by a computer, I cannot help but read the whole sentence in Dr Strangelove's voice. Which of course makes it instantly hilarious.

      I think my brain does this because people still don't get the fact that computers are just as fallible as man. They are after all, programmed by us. Computer control is NOT the answer and any system which would rely on it in a "savior" like way, is not one that I would 'bank' on. (heh)

      --
      As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    97. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ron Paul follows the Austrian school of economics. They believe that mathematical models and statistics can't be used to analyze economics, and that you cannot conduct tests are experiments to determine the validity of economic theories. You just have to reason it out from first principles. It is basically a rejection of the idea that economics can be developed as a science or based on real world data.

      They are essentially the economic equivalent of creationists, rejecting science. A Ron Paul economy would be a disaster.

      Maybe he'd be better on non-economic issues. Oh wait--he's tried three times now to use an underhanded legislative trick (jurisdiction stripping) to make it so the Constitutional prohibition of establishment of religion would not apply to the states. Yeah, state sponsored religion--that's just what we need.

      How about education? He supports spending public money on vouchers for Christian schools, but voted against vouchers for DC schools. I guess he thinks public schools are good enough for Black kids.

      Votes no on pretty much anything designed to encourage development of clean energy or to reduce our dependency on oil.

      Do Ron Paul supporters ever actually look into his record? Nearly all of them I've seen on the net seem to support him because he agrees with one or two of their pet issues, and they have no idea of how terrible he is on so many things.

    98. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by roman_mir · · Score: 5, Informative

      . 13 other countries besides the U.K. had decided to abandon their currencies' gold parity in 1931. Bernanke and James' data for the average growth rate of industrial production for these countries (plotted in the top panel above) was positive in every year from 1932 on. Countries that stayed on gold, by contrast, experienced an average output decline of 15% in 1932. The U.S. abandoned gold in 1933, after which its dramatic recovery immediately began. The same happened after Italy dropped the gold standard in 1934, and for Belgium when it went off in 1935. On the other hand, the three countries that stuck with gold through 1936 (France, Netherlands, and Poland) saw a 6% drop in industrial production in 1935, while the rest of the world was experiencing solid growth. - this entire paragraph is ridiculous.

      The US didn't begin a recovery in 1933 at all. US only recovered once the WWII ended, so the government stopped with the spending and the credit could be reallocated back into the private sector. 1929-1945 were the years of bail outs and stimulus. And when talking about 'output decline', yeah, that's their most important metric. For the government of-course, as when prices fall in a deflation, they collect less taxes and they owe money, so to a government this is a double hit - they collect less in taxes and they must repay debts in appreciating currency.

      Of-course they hate deflation, but deflation is great for the consumer. FDIC was created to fight an imaginary problem - only 2% of deposits were wiped out during the Depression, but the prices fell by a much bigger amount due to the deflationary pressure, which was a healthy unwinding of the bubble, that the US government has created in the twenties, when it was buying UK debt, to prop up UK pound, so they inflated a huge bubble in agriculture, prices needed to go down and they fought it tooth and nail by printing so much money, it was obscene by those times.

      The consumers who didn't have their deposits disappear, gained hugely from the increase in purchasing power, much more than 2%, as the prices for agricultural products were plummeting, and government was trying to keep the prices up then, just like it's trying to keep prices for houses and various companies (banks, GE, GM, etc.) up today.

      Real gold standard wouldn't have let US to get into the Great Depression in the first place, because the Fed wouldn't be able to print money. The current depression wouldn't have happened either.

    99. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Irrelevant points. These occur decades later.

      I understand that you are trying to ridicule my implication of causation by making frivolous correlations.

      But the US Federal Income Tax is ratified in 1913, the same year as the creation of the US Federal Reserve Bank. They are corrolary actions.

      Now, slink back to Jekyll Island.

      "If it were to be exposed that our particular group had got together and written a banking bill, that bill would have no chance whatever of passage by Congress."
      -- Frank A. Vanderlip, Banker, 1935

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    100. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it bum you out that gas prices have gone down recently?

    101. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that "inflation" is never a problem, I'm saying that inflation isn't our problem right now. I also never made the claim that they are "speculation" driven, I'm just pointing out that all the inflation concerns that seem to be so prevalent on one side of the political aisle are completely unfounded. Get back to me in a couple years when we actually have an inflation rate worth talking about.

      Also, sending me a link to a story about a company that hadn't raised their prices in 3 years, and then getting all crazy about "OMG INFLATION!!!" isn't really doing it for me

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    102. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Gold stays constant, to the price of oil - give or take. :-)

      You see the dollar's weakness. This was the supposed "oil crisis" of the 70's. There was no shortage of supply, or sudden change in demand or speculation. The dollar shit, after Nixon went all the way off. The value has never been recovered.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    103. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      But at some point pulling it out of the ocean will be.

    104. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      I dare you to go to you favourite shop, and buy a suit for an ounce of gold.

      People will laugh at you.

    105. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Except other currencies have been relatively stable with the dollar.

      And before you start saying "well, they had 200% inflation too!", they didn't, because the prices of non-gold commodities didn't go up by the same amount. Gold is in a bubble.

      Bullshit. How about oil? And how about industrial commodities? Have you compared the price of gold over time to the price of wheat?

      I also suggest you take a careful look at the stock market, which the "experts" in Washington and at the Fed claim is indicating a recovery. In fact, the stock market prices simply reflect the first place where the devalued dollar starts to show large price increases. Check out the indexes vs. the price of gold, and you'll notice that the market is still depressed, and the only thing that is failing is the fiat "money" that the elites are fooling everyone with and using to rob the lower classes.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    106. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by clampolo · · Score: 2

      You are injecting too much politics into this. Do you really think that Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh's audience have the economic power to cause a major commodity to rise to an all time high? For a major commodity like gold to go up in price some major players have to be getting in on the action. And in fact, China and India have been buying large amounts of gold.

      And it makes sense why people are buying. There is a lot of uncertainty in the world economy right now. There are fears from austerity measures in Europe as well as debt/unemployment woes in the US. Gold makes a very nice hedge. If the fears are justified then there is no bubble. But if you are so sure that you know more than the market, feel free to short gold.

      Inflation has not been the problem over the last few years

      Considering that the FED's definition of inflation excludes food and energy prices, I tend to dismiss anyone that says inflation isn't that bad.

      The gold standard would be a great thing for very few people. and I'd bet dollars to donuts that you aren't actually one of them

      Despite its occasional ups and downs, gold is pretty good at keeping its purchasing power. The dollar is not. Inflation is a real killer for people on fixed incomes, so I fail to see why you think price stability is only good for the rich.

    107. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by enjerth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your grandfather should have invested that money not hoarded it.
      Inflation is good in that it encourages spending.

      That is perhaps the greatest fallacy of the modern era: economic strength is in spending.

      An increase in economic activity is not an indication of strength. Spending (consumption) is actually a destructive force. If spending and an increase in economic activity were indicative of economic strength, then nations with hyper-inflated currencies are among the strongest in the world, because those people spend all of their income the very same day they get paid.

      Power is increased through accumulation (saving), which is reserved not for itself, but for the sake of future spending and investing, whether or not there is a goal in mind for those savings. Whether or not you see it, spending must always come from savings. What about spending on credit? Well that is just a promise that you will save in the future. You are promising future savings for spending today. If you can't learn to save before spending then you will never catch up with your debt, and you will live out the rest of your life as a slave to your debt.

      A monetary system that discourages savings by way of inflation will make slaves of all of it's subjects.

    108. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 2

      No, he is right. For all intents and purposes, spending and investing are the same. In aggregate, the money put into the system in exchange for is used to produce more goods and services.

      It is a bizarre illusion that some transfer of money between two parties is "spending" and some of it is "investing". In the end, it doesn't matter: money gets transformed into goods and services. When you spend your money in a restaurant, you are allowing this restaurant to stay in business. And you are ensuring that you can continue to go eat there.

      Money is just a convenient way to exchange goods and services. But in the end, it is only that. There is no particular value of having lots of it stored somewhere, unused.

    109. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Fiat currency is a technology. We the ppl can use it to benefit us! Just think, if the Fed created $16 trillion out of thin air and there was no inflation to speak of, why can't we print the budget and empower individuals with a basic income, and fund challenges to stimulate the innovation that is the real driver of standard of living increases?

      There's no such thing as a free lunch. Those at the top get to use the money while it retains most of it's value. Those further down the money "food chain" won't get to use any of that extra money until most of the value is depressed. That's how the wealthy use fiat money and inflation to rob the rest of the people. Because they just need capital to get more capital, but the rest of us have to do real work and produce real goods and services.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    110. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Paracelcus · · Score: 0

      I just love how people will fall for one bullshit line after another, Ron Paul is just another self serving parasite, capitalizing on the unending gullibility of the American people, didn't anybody learn their lesson from "change you can believe in"? or "hope", learn the lesson, get a clue, if the cocksucker was any god damn good he'd be getting a flight in a Paul Wellstone aeroplane! Just go ahead and challenge the status quo and see if anybody hears about you!

      I'm SICK of these simpleminded bastards endlessly believing in one lying crooked scumbag after another! Back in the 60's there was a sign "what if they gave a war and nobody came" How about "what if they had an election and everybody wrote in Mickey Mouse"!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    111. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by budgenator · · Score: 1

      If memory serves me correctly, Great Yellow Father bitch-slapped those two Texan-clowns pretty hard, and Diamonds have been mostly De Beers marketing hype for decades.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    112. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The claim that "there is no inflation" is nothing but a lie. Those of us watching our living expenses go up already know this. Others just believe the lie.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    113. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by makomk · · Score: 1

      This has the... interesting side effect of increasing the wealth of rich people that haven't actually contributed to the economic expansion at the expense of the people that did actually contribute. (It also doesn't work in practice from what I can recall.)

    114. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      You mean like BitCoin?

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    115. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      Yes, the 'modifications' were increasing the number of dollars to an ounce of gold. This is not what a gold 'standard' is. Whoever put that in Wikipedia has no idea what the terminology even means. Any sane person cannot possibly consider Bretton-Woods to be a gold standard.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    116. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      It has over a hundred medical and industrial uses as it has some very unique physical and chemical properties.Yes it was one of the first shiny things people got ahold of, but it shines because of those unique physical and chemical properties. Because it is so expensive it is only adapted when there is really no alternative. Thus there's always some demand for it.Then it's other physical characteristics make it a good candidate for a medium of exchenage (divisible, durable, rare)

    117. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      You do realize that it was Bernie Sanders, not Paul, who ordered this audit, right? You know, Sanders (S-VT), where "S" is the Socialist Party of Vermont?

      Actually, it was originally Ron Paul's bill. Sanders sold out, gutted it, and instead of a comprehensive full audit of the Fed became and extremely limited, one-time audit instead.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    118. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      +1 Informative. Wish I had mod points.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    119. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      The U.S. became the world's largest manufacturer in 1895.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    120. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Two factors that are probably more relevant to the expansion seen after WWII. Women had become part of the workforce,(not all at once mind you but they were edging in) and the end of wage and price controls of the depression and wartime era.

    121. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Or, say, Bernie Sanders, who ordered this audit.

      You should make sure you know what you're talking about before opening your mouth. Here's a good start.

      Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) introduced an amendment on the floor effectively adding the Grayson-Paul language to the Senate bill, but later changed his amendment under pressure by the Federal Reserve and the Obama administration. The altered Sanders amendment passed the Senate on May 11, 2010 by a unanimous 96-0 vote.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    122. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by enjerth · · Score: 1

      And what exactly is better about robbing the masses of purchasing power by steady inflation and making them slaves to debt?

      From what you recall? Got an example?

    123. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by KhabaLox · · Score: 2

      I think you are confusing knowledge of all things with knowledge of a specific thing. As we learn more, the sum total of knowledge increases, the aggregate value of that knowledge increases. But as specific knowledge becomes widespread, the value of that knowledge decreases.

      If only one person knew how to brew beer, that knowledge would be very valuable. If everyone knows how to brew beer, that knowledge is less valuable.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    124. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Or maybe the guy who actually did this? You know Bernie Sanders, or as Paulites would refer to him "teh ebil Socialist."

      Ron Paul gets a lot of credit for doing a whole lot of nothing.

      I'm getting tired of correcting you ignorant masses. But here is the full story, again

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    125. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jayson · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, when the population and economy expand, the money supply has to expand with it. When administered responsibly (I.E. not just printing more money to cover debts), a paper money supply can be controlled much more finely. The gold supply expands in a fairly unpredictable way, controlled by how fast mining can be done, which can be completely unrelated to current economic conditions.

      Actually the above ground gold stock expands at a fairly steady rate. It has a low industrial demand that tends to match its production. This is one of the reasons gold's value is fairly stable, the most stable over a very long time of anything we know of.

      To have a gold standard doesn't mean you need to actually have every dollar backed by gold or use gold directly. It is called a gold target. We say that a dollar is to be worth 1/1500th of an ounce of gold and the money supply is expanded and contracted. This maintains its role of a unit of measurement.

      It isn't rocket science or new as to how to make a gold standard work. It is just that politicians like to be in control and use inflation as a tax (Carter's budgets hid out year deficits by predicting inflation pushing people into higher tax brackets it was so institutionalized).

    126. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by budgenator · · Score: 1

      golds is U$ 1590.96, the United States Bullion Depository holds 147.2 million oz. troy.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    127. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by The+AtomicPunk · · Score: 1

      you have it backwards. the dollar was worth 1/350 of an ounce of gold - now its worth a mere 1/1600. the inflation you fear has already been here for a good 10 years.

      however, the establishment applauds your ignorance.

    128. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Getting it from seawater is an idea that I've heard mentioned a few times

      From what I've heard about this, scientists estimated that seawater contained a certain amount of gold, someone invented a means of getting that gold out of the seawater, but the amount of gold they found was many times less than the estimate, so they scrapped the project. The result could mean one of two things: Either the process didn't work as well as it needed to, or the original estimate of the amount of gold in seawater was wrong. If the first was true, then I guess yes, maybe one day we will come up with an economically-viable way to get gold from seawater. If the second was true, then we won't.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    129. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jayson · · Score: 2

      So, bright eyes, what would happen if a gold-backed currency could not find more gold to back it?

      You are not understanding how a gold standard is operated. It doesn't mean that the amount of money is tied to an amount of gold. It means that the dollar is tied to the price of gold.

      For example, right now you would set the dollar to target $1500 per ounce of gold. As gold rose, dollars would be drained from the economy. As gold fell below $1500, dollars would be injected into the economy. We don't need to monkey with the tax rates either (actually, that would be an absolutely terrible idea). You would use open market operations like they do now. Too many dollars (inflation) - sell bonds and extinguish the dollars. Too few dollars (deflation) - buy bonds with newly printed dollars.

      People often get this really wrong and assume that a gold standard implies money has to grow at the rate of gold when that isn't true at all. The central bank doesn't even need to own any gold at all to make it work since you are just doing a price target. People also often confuse inflation and deflation with rising and falling prices. They are not the same thing. For example, inflation will put upward price pressure that will result in rising prices - ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL. But scarcity or high demand can also cause rising prices, but that isn't inflation - it is a pricing signal unrelated to inflation.

    130. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      There was some recovery in 34-35, but there was a second dip in 36-37

      A 100% reserve currency could still go through a business cycle if there was a significant mismatch between the time terms of savings and of lending, but this is a fairly esoteric point.

    131. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, some 420,000 Americans died in WWII, and there were 5.3 million unemployed in 1940, so I think your argument is weak. What WWII proved is that the govt can take over 43% of the economy and pull the country out of a depression when biz can't.

    132. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Innovation increases quality of life. We can print as much money as we want, but we need to keep innovation going. When biz is sitting on trillions licking its wounds after its latest screwup, govt should spend, preferably by providing a basic income and holding challenges (which biz can hold too, like Netflix, Google) to stimulate each individual to take advantage of his/her native curiosity and creativity to advance knowledge and technology. Look at Japan's 200% debt-to-gdp ratio, and a currency they consider too strong...

    133. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bramlet+Abercrombie · · Score: 1

      don't you guys know gold hit 1600 an ounce?

    134. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bramlet+Abercrombie · · Score: 1

      didn't anybody learn their lesson from "change you can believe in"? or "hope" So you would rather we voted for McCain? If there is a lesson to be learned its to stopping caring, because nothing can be done. Apathy will set you free.

    135. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Sanders amendment was passed over Paul's amendment. Paul's amendment was an actual top-to-bottom audit of the Fed, while the Sanders was incredibly watered-down by comparison. For example, the gold will not be audited. For all other multi-billion dollar assets, owners require periodic audits of the asset, yet for some reason the gold in the Federal Reserve has not been audited in over 60 years.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    136. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because it is so expensive it is only adapted when there is really no alternative.

      The paradox here is that something like 50 percent of all gold that isn't used for money or investments is used for jewelery and other decorative purposes, all of which are completely unnecessary. There are also plenty of alternative shiny things that could be used to make jewelery, but people choose gold anyway. So whatever demand there may be for it in industrial applications is offset by the completely irrational demand for it in other applications. In my book that makes it a lousy commodity market to be in, unless you're there to exploit bubbles.

      To illustrate, titanium is also used in medical applications because it has some properties similar to gold, and it's probably useful in far more medical applications than gold is, yet gold is currently 1,224 times more expensive than titanium.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    137. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by mirix · · Score: 1

      Ask the psych/philosophy/history majors (and hell, engineers these days) working at starbucks.

      Scarcity of a trade provides it with value... (yeah I know that is a small portion of knowledge)

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    138. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      Your premise is flawed, gold has booms and busts like every other commodity, and those booms and busts aren't necessarily the optimal choices for the economic conditions they occur in.

    139. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Xaositecte · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Steady deflation provides an incentive to keep most of your wealth in savings, rather than invest it. The result is a tendency for slower economic growth compared to an inflationary economy.

      People tend to become slaves to debt in America because they don't know how to live within their goddamn means.

    140. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by PCM2 · · Score: 2

      I dare you to go to you favourite shop, and buy a suit for an ounce of gold.

      A friend of mine runs a store that sells fancy bicycles, and a guy tried to do just that. He actually had the gold coins on his person. Really, though, it seemed like he was less interested in buying a bike than in haranguing shop owners about the evils of fiat currency, etc., etc. This may be why a lot of folks assume that people who are obsessed with the gold standard are loonies.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    141. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by PCM2 · · Score: 2

      If spending and an increase in economic activity were indicative of economic strength, then nations with hyper-inflated currencies are among the strongest in the world, because those people spend all of their income the very same day they get paid.

      And if not spending were indicative of economic strength, then nations where everyone lives in caves and there is no industry would be among the strongest in the world, because everyone's money would just sit in the bank.

      Power is increased through accumulation (saving), which is reserved not for itself, but for the sake of future spending and investing

      So spending now is bad, and what you really want to do is spend later? I'm not sure I see the distinction.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    142. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by enjerth · · Score: 0

      Steady deflation provides an incentive to keep most of your wealth in savings, rather than invest it.

      Only while the typical investment return, after risk, is less than the rate of deflation.

    143. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Xaositecte · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying savings will always be the optimal choice over investment in a deflationary economy, only that it will happen more often.

    144. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smash · · Score: 1

      You think you AREN'T already living with 200% inflation?

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    145. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smash · · Score: 1

      No, its because people have been ditching your monopoly money and going into real assets.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    146. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smash · · Score: 1

      It is still significantly more difficult than adding some zeros to an electronic balance.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    147. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by SomeKDEUser · · Score: 1

      They are loonies!

      People who think that the goal of hoarding money is to have more money as time passes are loonies. Seriously, think about it, why would a society think that having large amount of some counters representing value immobilised somewhere is Good?

      It is neither moral, nor makes economic sense. Loonies.

    148. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smash · · Score: 1

      I don't know how to cast the bones like an economist.

      Given the state of world finances, i would say neither do the majority of our "economists".

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    149. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by mirix · · Score: 1

      me too.

      Mr. President, it is not only possible, it is essential. That is the whole idea of this machine, you know. ... And so, because of the automated and irrevocable decision making process which rules out human meddling, the doomsday^W money-printing machine is terrifying. It's simple to understand. And completely credible, and convincing.

      [snip]

      Well, it's remarkably simple to do that. When you merely wish to print money, there is no limit to the amount. After that they [printers] are connected to a gigantic complex of computers. Now then, a specific and clearly defined set of circumstances, under which the money is to printed, is programmed into a tape memory bank.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    150. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by mirix · · Score: 1

      Funny thing how back in the day normal folks could afford to buy shoes made by normal folks, here. Even when they were made by unionized workers.

      Perhaps the companies were somewhat less insanely profitable.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    151. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that Ron Paul is a fucking nutcase, and Bernie Sanders is OK. Ron Paul would be an awful president.

    152. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      It is for that reason that I know they can be trusted.

      Who Kucinich and Paul or the Federal Reserve? Personally this passes my test of if Paul and Kucinich are against something it is probably bad. Each of these individuals represents what even their own parties considers the extreme ends so if they are in agreement that says something about how good or bad something is.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    153. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      no nonsense, U.S. went off the gold standard in 1973. The Depression had everything to do with self-referential paper pyramid scams, same as recession of now.

      In the real world, the U.S. went off the gold standard in 1933, and the while there is some debate among experts about how big a role the gold standard played in the Depression overall, it was undisputably a major factor in the bank run and bank collapses that were one of the early events of the depression, because these were directly triggered by waves of attempts to convert dollars to gold.

      Its true that much of the world, including the U.S., adopted a system that was something like a gold standard under the 1946 Bretton Woods agreement, but this wasn't what most people (including most current advocates of a "gold standard") define as a gold standard (particularly, it was a "U.S. dollar standard" with a notional peg to gold, but only certain specially privileged actors had the right to convert dollars to gold; most gold standard advocates advocate free convertibility.)

      Even the limited sort-of-gold-standard of Bretton Woods was showing major strains by the late 1950s, and was completely failed by the late 1960s (with major runs on gold, the US threatening to deny conversion of dollars to gold to certain countries, and the open market price of gold far above the notional peg price), and effectively killed any meaningful resemblance to a gold standard in 1971 when direct convertibility was suspended and then the dollar began a series of rapid adjustments in nominal gold value in an attempt to maintain the core of the Bretton Woods system, which was the peg of other currencies to the U.S. dollar.

      What actually happened in 1973 is that the world left the U.S. dollar standard, more than the U.S. leaving any meaningful gold standard.

      Quit being a shill for the banking cartel parasites who have been draining our wealth.

      How about if you quit being a shill for the gold investors would-be parasites that are looking for their chance to join the banking cartels in that draining. If you look at the history of economies under the gold standard, its not like banking cartels were any less parasitic. The push for a return to a gold standard largely comes from people who have staked out positions in gold hoping to benefit from the inevitable runs on gold that gold standards produce, and their dupes.

    154. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by dryeo · · Score: 1

      So between '79 when gold was close to a $1000 an oz to 2007 (or whenever, too lazy to double-check) when gold was $350 an oz we had 200% deflation?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    155. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      You do realize that it was illegal for individuals in the US to own gold bullion at that time. It was however legal to own foregin currency that was legal tender, certain collectible gold coins, and gold jewelry. Most notable of the collectible coins were the US gold double eagle ($20 coin) especially the 1933 dated one. For foreign currency the South African Krugerrand was dominant until the US in 1986 started again issuing American Gold Eagle bullion coins. Also at that time an individual could not redeem dollars for gold even though the international gold window was still open.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    156. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      I thought we became a super power after the Europeans bombed the crap out of each other so that they were basically all 3rd world countries and then we rolled in and bombed them some more. Add to that what happened in the Pacific Theater and basically we came out way ahead since we could actually build stuff and produce food. We really weren't on the gold standard during or after WWII since an individual US citizen couldn't actually redeem their dollars for gold from the government, but only foreign governments could, but after WWII they were all dirt poor and indebted to the US anyway so what did that matter.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    157. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by dryeo · · Score: 1

      $800 buys 1 Oz of gold in 1979
      $800 buys 2.9 Oz of gold in 2000
      $800 buys 1/2 Oz of gold in 2011

      So prices went down by 290% from '79 to 2000 and have only doubled from '79 to '11. Sure fooled me.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    158. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It's not that hard to believe. Presumably he's comparing now to sometime around 2003 when gold was around $350/oz. In that time, the price of wheat has increased by about a factor of around 2 to 2.5, depending on what you want to use as the exact starting point.

      Source: http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=wheat&months=120

    159. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      Also during that time there was a run on "hard" currency since people were hording all the coinage they could since gold and silver coins would still be worth something regardless of what side won. It got so bad the both the Union and Confederate governments had to create fractional currency, also known as postage currency which was basically denominations of paper currency less than a dollar.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    160. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      And I spent all of my mod points today someone get this man a +5 funny. In my opinion Peter Sellers greatest role.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    161. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I take it you have never heard of debasing the currency like the Romans use to do with theirs.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    162. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Since we went off the gold standard in 1973,

      The US went off the gold standard in 1933. Much of the world (including the US) adopted a currency system in which the U.S. dollar was the standard, and the U.S. dollar was notionally pegged to gold but with only limited convertibility (only central banks could convert dollars to gold, and only in specified quantities) in 1946 (Bretton Woods), an arrangement which showed strains almost immediately, and which had effectively collapsed by the late 1960s (when a series of events, including a major run on gold and gold trading in markets far above its notionally fixed "peg" price, led the US acted to limit further even convertibility and to abandon its minimum reserve ratio of gold to dollars), and which effectively fell completely apart in 1971 when the long-standing notional peg at $35/oz. was abandoned and the dollar went through a series of price adjustments relative to gold, leading to complete abandonment of the pegs of other currencies to the dollar in the Bretton Woods arrangement in 1973.

    163. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      You want to try again to explain how the US didn't become a superpower until after WW2 (and further, to answer the GP, how the US wasn't already a superpower in 1971, the year it went off the gold standard)?

      The U.S. went off the gold standard in 1933. It was recognized as the world's overwhelmingly dominant economic power when essentially the entire world adopted a system in which the U.S. dollar was the standard against which other currencies were pegged in 1946. Its true that the U.S currency was, in the same system, notionally pegged to gold, but (1) this peg featured very limited convertibility, and (2) this peg to gold very quickly broke down as anything more than notional, as gold within a decade or so was trading well above the notional peg price, and a variety of extreme steps had to be taken to attempt to maintain any credibility of the peg, which continued to become less and less meaningful, leading to abandoning reserve requirements and further steps to limit convertibility in 1968, attempts to reset the peg value vs. gold of the US dollar from 1971, and finally the Bretton Woods system of currencies using the U.S. dollar as the standard being abandoned in 1973.

      Its important to note that the Bretton Woods arrangement wasn't a real good standard in the usual sense (the U.S. dollar wasn't freely convertible to gold), in attempt to restrict the opportunities for runs on gold and other problems which had caused the disastrous collapse of gold standards around the world not long before -- a failed attempt, at that, as the same problems even with the restricted convertibility brought down Bretton Woods, as well.

      Pegging currencies to a single well-selected commodity might be good for the "store of value" function of money (but only in the short term, as pegged currencies regimes don't tend to last long in environments with modern, active trading markets), but its really bad (compared to fiat money) for the "medium of exchange" function, and experience has shown this pretty clearly. As long as people can buy commodities with money, any advantage a pegged currency would have for store of value is realized in a fiat money system as well, as people can just buy the commodity directly, and hold it as a store of value, liquidating it only as necessary to generate currency to use in exchange.

      A well-selected, dynamically adjusted basket of commodities might work fairly well as basis for currency, but from a practical standpoint the management and selection of the basket would be even more subject to manipulation that would be opaque to the general public than the fairly simple and (comparatively) easily understood manipulations possible with fiat money. You probably get a lot better result for the effort, just in terms of currency policy and its effects, improving government transparency and accountability in a fiat money regime than trying to replace a fiat money regime with something else, and improving transparency and accountability has lots of side benefits outside of currency policy.

    164. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by jcr · · Score: 2

      Gold has increased in value because the Glenn Beckers and his (whatever they actually call themselves) ditto-heads have driven the price up with excess demand.

      That's absolutely idiotic. Beck got on the gold-buying bandwagon very late, and he certainly had nothing to do with the massive buying that the Chinese and Indian banks have been doing.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    165. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      like shiny pieces of metal

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    166. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      Your food prices going up because the cost per barrel of oil (to ship it) fluctuating month to month is not inflation.

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    167. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      I understand

      I understand?

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    168. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Jayson · · Score: 1

      You have it backwards. The dollar has booms or busts and it shows up immediately in the price of gold as gold falls or rises, respectively.

      Prices are the result of 2 supply curves and 2 demand curves: the supply and demand for an item and the supply and demand for dollars (more generally, the unit that item is denominated in). Gold's supply and demand curves are fairly static. You cannot simply look at price fluctuations and say therefore the value of gold is rising and falling since you are then ignoring the value of the dollar.

      Making things a little more difficult, most currencies move together since we are in a global economy with global trade with central banks that follow similar methodologies. If gold is soaring, but the EUR/USD exchange rate isn't moving too much, it simply means the EUR and USD are inflating together.

      The way you see this is by looking at the effects of inflation. This is why so many (poor Keynesian) economists get it so very wrong. They see and flat EUR/USD and assume no inflation and then get really confused by it so they play games with pricing metrics to make it magically disappear. Higher prices cased by inflation will slowing trickle though the economy starting in commodities, moving through the economy finally impacting durable goods and wages on the other extreme (also, this is one of the reason the core CPI and GDP deflator are often poor measure of inflation because they are many years backwards looking).

      This also leads to the confusing about "cost push" inflation. The full story isn't that higher oil prices lead to higher goods costs, it is that excess liquidity flows into commodities first and then that liquidity ripples through the economies as contracts renew. All else being equal, if you help the money supply constant and oil prices went up, goods in the rest of the economy would fall. That relative price movement is the market signal to produce more oil. Inflating currencies ruin this pricing signal by showing false signs of scarcity.

    169. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 2

      Holy fucking Jesus, I thought I was the only one that saw the pattern..... When you see it on TV, that's the charlatans working together to get someone else to hold the flaming bag of poo.

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    170. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Poorcku · · Score: 1
      What a bunch of crap. Sorry. I am not an American, so I will not comment on the last part of your statement. I don't know the reasons why he voted that way. The first part however needs some correction.

      Rejecting mathematical models and statistics.

      True. But it rejects economical models and statistics. These models, never-mind how much are you inclined to believe them are full of flaws. And one of them particularly hardcore. The assumption that humans will make rational decisions based on presented facts. Despite four decades of applied psychology research showing that rational decision making in certain situations is not attainable, your statistic lovers in the "we love Keynes" Department won't listen, and won't change their models accordingly. But hey, if some multiple regression gets you off, so be it.

      After your logic, psychoanalysis can also be classified as scientific creationism, nevermind that several meta-analysis have shown psychoanalysis and psychodynamic therapy to be effective, with outcomes comparable or greater than other kinds of psychotherapy or antidepressant drugs (Schedler, 2010). This kind of statistical onanism you preach is just bad for science.

      Reference: Shedler, J. (2010), "The Efficacy of Psychodynamic Psychotherapy", American Psychologist 65 (2): 98â"109,

      --
      I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
    171. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      I know your heart is in the right place, but the fact of the matter is that in the United States, banks have always been able to engage in fractional reserve lending. Whereever FRL is allowed, the basis of the currency, whether it be a commodity like gold, or credit as we do now, is pretty much irrelevant. So to say that the United States was on the gold standard is not really correct. If a nation was truly on the gold standard, i.e. with now FRL allowed, it wouldn't last 10 years.

      Please don't read the above to conclude that I think FRL is a good thing. IMO it has caused more human suffering than any other thing one can name. Please have a look at my sig. Social Credit is what you are looking for, not the gold standard.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    172. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      Your heart is in the right place, but you don't understand how the Fed works. It doesn't really print money - mostly that is done by private banks via the mechanism of fractional reserve lending. Regulating FRL is the Fed's purpose and that is where the evil comes in. However if we were to end FRL and go on the gold standard at the same time, we wouldn't last 5 years. As for deflation, no, it is not "great". I'll tell you what would be great: steady predictable growth, just like population. No bubbles, no crashes. How to get that? Read my sig. Economics, like relativety, was all figured out around the begginning of the 20th century, only unlike relativety, with economics the truth has been surpressed. The "Einstein" in this case is a man named Clifford Hugh Douglas.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    173. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      Yeah, Paul isn't even much of a libertarian. However, even with all his poorly thought out positions and the Austrian nonsense, he at least seems to me a man who is uncynically true to his openly expressed notions. Considering that, quite a contrast between him and most of the rest of congress who are only true, in private, to the largest donors.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    174. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    175. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by xelah · · Score: 1

      If only one person knew how to brew beer, that knowledge would be very valuable. If everyone knows how to brew beer, that knowledge is less valuable.

      Not to the economy as a whole. If there is a beer monopolist then less beer is produced, and there are people who would be prepared to pay more for beer than it costs to make but less than he is charging. If everyone knows then that's not the case. In the first case the creation of that knowledge has increased everyone's welfare by less than the second, so the secret knowledge has less value to the economy than the public knowledge. (All under certain assumptions, of course, such as that everyone knows what's good for them and the rest of the economy is perfect....but it's a starting point and it might be expected to be approximately true).

      And that's not to mention that bits of knowledge can interact. You need a lot of bits of knowledge just to build a better pencil, never mind a car. The more public it is the more easily it can be brought together.

    176. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      but you don't understand how the Fed works. It doesn't really print money -

      - thank you, I know that the Fed is not actually printing money, they are marking up their accounts that the member banks are holding, and then the banks actually issue credit from those accounts.

      It's the same thing as printing money.

      Regulating FRL is the Fed's purpose and that is where the evil comes in.

      - no it's not. Fed's mandate was 'price stability' and for some reason now it also became 'maximum employment', but in actual reality their actual powers are in inflation generation, which is now their actual mandate, as stated by Bernanke. Of-course the Fed is an abysmal failure in both: price stability and maximum employment.

      They physically cannot fail in the mandate of generating inflation, because that's easy. That's money printing (and I don't mean physical printing with paper and colors, etc., spare me.)

      Here in so many words by Bernanke himself

      The Objectives of Monetary Policy ...
      Recognizing the interactions between the two parts of our mandate, the FOMC has found it useful to frame our dual mandate in terms of the longer-run sustainable rate of unemployment and the mandate-consistent inflation rate . ...
      The longer-run inflation projections in the SEP indicate that FOMC participants generally judge the mandate-consistent inflation rate to be about 2 percent or a bit below. In contrast, as I noted earlier, recent readings on underlying inflation have been approximately 1 percent. Thus, in effect, inflation is running at rates that are too low relative to the levels that the Committee judges to be most consistent with the Federal Reserve's dual mandate in the longer run. ...

      s for deflation, no, it is not "great". I'll tell you what would be great: steady predictable growth, just like population. No bubbles, no crashes.

      - a fools errand. You can't have economy that is stable and non-dynamic, in a non-dynamic economy you'll only have worsening economy. There are no benefits to preventing the market solutions at work to the bubbles. The busts are solutions, not problems. Bubbles are the problem, and bubbles will always form since people are not perfect in decision making even when the government is not interfering. In absence of government interference, any bubbles are quickly busted and the resources are reabsorbed by the economy, fixing the problem quickly - the companies go bust, people get fired, money gets freed, new companies form, people get hired, new products are created. This is good stuff, this is dynamic stability, not this artificial staleness that you want economy to be.

      Read my sig. Economics, like relativety, was all figured out around the begginning of the 20th century, only unlike relativety, with economics the truth has been surpressed.

      - nobody needs to suppress garbage. Real economics that is actually suppressed is Austrian economics, and it's suppressed for a reason - governments hate reduction of their power, and that's the logical outcome of following actual sound money.

      Here is a little something on monopoly power created by the government. - at least this is an interesting read.

    177. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by xelah · · Score: 1

      Economics is rather limited in how well it can predict and advise, but even when it can people don't necessarily take notice. Quite a few of the housing booms around the world were quite obvious once you looked at price/rent or price/income ratios but people still bought houses. And I don't think you'd have found many economists to approve of governments persistently attempting to spend their successors' tax revenue during good economic conditions, either. Almost all governments do that, all over the world, because it's good politics.

    178. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      the silver market is smaller than the gold market, so that makes it easier for Hunt Brothers-esque gamesmanship.
      granted, though it's clear that federal spending is crazy, I'm not sure if going back to a metal monetary standard is the answer.

      "lower spending/higher taxes, sell less in bonds and print less in FRNs" doesn't necessarily mean reviving gold certificates and/or silver certificates

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    179. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by surgen · · Score: 1

      Sanders (S-VT), where "S" is the Socialist Party of Vermont?

      "Score: 4, Informative" for a post that ignores the information that Bernie has been representing us as an Independent since the 1980's?

    180. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by frisket · · Score: 1

      Except that in most shitty economies they don't loot the rich. They are the rich. What they do is loot the poor and keep it for themselves. We call that "corruption". The only difference in the western economies now in trouble (US included) is that they did it via the taxation system and via corporations, which makes it legal. It's still corrupt, though.

    181. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by shoehornjob · · Score: 1

      I'm really curious how you'd expect The President to promote industry as well. For one, it's the Executive branch. They don't create laws or set policy (or shouldn't.) The primary goal of said branch is execute the law.

      That may be so however he did a good job working within the party to push that health care bill through congress. And in reality presidents have always pushed their own agenda especially when their party has the majority rule in both houses of congress.

      --
      "We are just a war away from Amerikastan. When god vs god the undoing of man." Dave Mustaine
    182. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to have every major point wrong:

      1. An economic recovery is a process, not an event. It did indeed *begin* in 1933, continued until 1937 and faltered under a tax hike. This recovery was eventually completed by the forced employment (aka the wartime draft) of a huge chunk of the male population of the country and massive deficit spending. Look no further than the employment graphs from 1920-1940 on the Wikipedia page for the Great Depression (although "recovery" is defined in terms of GDP growth, so it's not entirely fair to use employment stats).

      2. "Deflation is great for the consumer"? Deflation is great for the creditor. In case you haven't noticed, very few people in history are creditors. In the 1930s, when the majority of Americans were in the agricultural sector (farmers/hands), debt was a way of life. You had to go into debt in order to plant your crops and maintain them throughout the summer. Hopefully the crop wouldn't fail lest you be left with nothing.

      So deflation means your debt load has actually gone up over the summer (since the value of your crops you planted are worth less than they were last year). So you take out more loans, and the next year you plant more so you can stay in front of it. Everyone else in the sector has the same pressures and makes the same moves, so you collectively depress the price of food and simultaneously exhaust the soil, creating the Dust Bowl. Then the USDA steps in to pay everyone to not be an idiot, and the CME lets you sleep soundly knowing you won't be ruined by a failed crop (aka, you're hedged).

      This is, BTW, how nearly all of the economy works (albeit without the USDA and CME). Only Microsoft builds things with the money they have in the bank, everybody else buys what they need on credit, and pay it off later. If that debt goes up in value, then I have to make even more money to stay afloat than I would in an inflationary cycle. So the amount of time I need in order to become profitable gets longer, my bank account gets lighter, my VCs need more placating, and maybe I don't make it. Microsoft, by contrast, would continue to use its existing reserves.

      So a deflationary cycle is disastrous for anyone trying to do business that doesn't already have a fat wad of cash. But that's really the point, isn't it? Kicking away the ladder?

      3. The FDIC was created to fight crises of confidence---just like the one that took out Lehman Brothers and started the broader financial crisis. A crisis of confidence is an "imaginary problem" in the same way that the wind is an "imaginary problem".

      4. Assuming that the US *government* owned the British debt during the 1920s (I'll need a source). They accumulated it during WWI, when the UK flipped from a creditor nation to a debtor. Again, sometimes you need to do things that you can't afford (like fight ze Germans), and you need to go into debt. There's more on Wikipedia about this, but the UK re-imposed the gold standard in 1925 (with bullion convertibility), couldn't afford it, and had to take the country off the gold standard in 1931. So as it turns out, what you're advocating has been tried before, and it's failed.

      5. See #2 above regarding food prices in particular, and debt in general.

      6. This is so weird that it's not even wrong. I suggest you look at the research that Bernanke (yes, *that* Bernanke) has done on the Fed's role in the Great Depression. Effectively, they tried to help companies with their "healthy unwinding" (as you call it) of 30% of the workforce, rather than doing everything possible to stop it.

    183. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His record is pretty easy to understand. He votes against Federal government spending, and for states right's to self-determination. Did you not realize that the District of Columbia is a federal zone?

    184. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why the fuck should we base our currency off some arbitrary metal? Why not use copper or uranium or chickens for that matter?

    185. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smelch · · Score: 1

      So let me explain this to you: he was saying going to the gold standard would destroy our country because the price of gold skyrocketed, which would be inflation. That's not true. When the Euro gets stronger compared to the dollar, that is not the Euro inflating, it is the dollar inflating. Gold is going up because of a weak (inflating) dollar. You can't say that the price of something (in this case gold) going up in dollars is evidence that if we were to use that something as a currency we would have rampant inflation. It makes no sense.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    186. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by smelch · · Score: 1

      Inflation is when a unit of currency buys less goods or services than it used to. It is not the opposite of that. Inflation is caused by excessive growth of the money supply, which can not happen with gold because it is limited, and this makes it a very stable currency. More to the point gold is doubling in value as measured by dollars! Dollars are the thing inflating, not gold! Ask yourself, would you rather be working for something that deteriorates in value or grows in value? Have you ever heard of an investment?

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    187. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      begin* in 1933,

      - was confiscation of private property (gold) part of the 'beginning of recovery'?

      You probably think that Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC), Civil Works Administration (CWA) was recovery? That started in 33.

      You probably think that FHA, FSA, HOLC, NRA (National Recovery Act,) PWA, SSA, TVA and WPA were recovery?

      You think public projects are equivalent of an actual economy? If so, how come the USSR was bankrupt even it was all only public projects?

      This recovery was eventually completed by the forced employment (aka the wartime draft)

      - aha, that and the fact that women had to go to work to the weapons factories is wonderful, 100% employment. Just like USSR had - 100% employment.

      Too bad that government 100% employment produces nothing that economy actually needs. No, don't get me wrong, it surely is one way to fight a war and must be done somehow, but to say that war time draft and weapons manufacturing causing 100% (well, probably a bit below that, but not much) employment is actually a real economic activity that helped to alleviate the ills of Depression?

      That's just silly. What is the use of those resources - that's the question. Of-course the Krugmans of the world will tell you that it is irrelevant what the employment that gov't provides is, as long as people are employed. That's of-course horse crap. Anybody would do anything rather than having to go to war and work building bombs that are immediately destroyed and don't do anything for the market except killing potential customers and producers.

      Again, during an even such as war, normal economy stops, but that does not mean that war helps the normal economy to get better. The only way in which war helps is that it allows some to steal a bunch of stuff from some others, but again, that's not a sustainable economic model.

      Deflation is great for the creditor.

      - that's not the point. The point for the consumers is that deflation is great for them.

      Government on the other hand, they have a huge problem with deflation, as they get fewer tax dollars, though the dollars they get buy more, but they get fewer of them, so they see it as a problem. Their other and more important problem is that government owes money.

      If government lived within its means deflation wouldn't have hurt it, but government does not want to do that. Who wants to do that? Why would you go to government to live within your means, isn't that's just silly?

      The FDIC was created to fight crises of confidence---just like the one that took out Lehman Brothers and started the broader financial crisis

      - no, FDIC was created to fight an imaginary problem because the problem it was created to fight only hit 2% of deposits. If you create an agency, which introduces systematic moral hazard into an existing market structure, then you are fighting an imaginary problem by doing the worst thing possible.

      It was an imaginary problem, because while 2% of deposits were lost, the rest of the deposits (98%, just to make sure you understand that little mathematical point) were not lost, in deflationary environment those 98% of deposits gained much more value than the 2% of the lost deposits wiped out.

      Assuming that the US *government* owned the British debt during the 1920s (I'll need a source)

      - who's "I"? You don't even exist, AC.

      Friedman's video or something to
      read.

    188. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

      But it rejects economical models and statistics. These models, never-mind how much are you inclined to believe them are full of flaws. And one of them particularly hardcore. The assumption that humans will make rational decisions based on presented facts.

      That's actually not a feature of rational choice theory, which models behavior as making the choice with the best utility with full knowledge, not making a "rational decision" based on "presented facts". Its actually well-known that what it posits (which requires perfect information) isn't an accurate model of the underlying reality. How science works, though, is to arrive at successively better models of reality by positing a model which makes falsifiable predictions, testing them, and refining them as necessary. Within certain domains within economics and other social sciences, rational choice theory has reasonable predictive power and better models aren't available. Within other domains, it doesn't, and other models (often based on modifications to rational choice theory based on observations of how actual human decisionmaking has shown to diverge from utility optimizing with perfect information) are used.

      Despite four decades of applied psychology research showing that rational decision making in certain situations is not attainable, your statistic lovers in the "we love Keynes" Department won't listen, and won't change their models accordingly.

      You don't discard a model because research in a different domain shows that its basic principle isn't universally applicable. You discard a model because you have a model which works better. And there are lots of models used in lots of domains within economics are empirical models that aren't derived from simple rational choice theory to start with, including most of those labelled "Keynesian".

      Discarding aggregate economic models based on rational choice theory that work empirically because rational choice doesn't model individual level decisions perfectly and thus can't be a perfect explanation of why those models work empirically is merely dumb. Discarding empirical economic models for which rational choice theory isn't central in the first place for that reason is insane.

    189. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ron Paul follows the Austrian school of economics. They believe that mathematical models and statistics can't be used to analyze economics, and that you cannot conduct tests are experiments to determine the validity of economic theories. You just have to reason it out from first principles. It is basically a rejection of the idea that economics can be developed as a science or based on real world data.

      They are essentially the economic equivalent of creationists, rejecting science. A Ron Paul economy would be a disaster.

      This is an absurd way of talking about Austrian economics. It is precisely the other economic theories who reject science when they think one, single, un-repeatable event can prove a theory. Or even worse, that one un-repeatable series of events can prove anything.

      Science must have experiments. You cannot conduce macro-economic experiments multiple times and check the results.

    190. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Of-course while the video of Friedman that I linked shows Milton being incorrect about the Fed's role in terms of ability to help during depression by printing money, he is correctly attributing inflation to the ability of the Fed to print money.

      This is what US Fed did starting in 1925 to prop up UK pound

      Hoover further charged that by shaping New York Fed interest rates to facilitate maintaining the British return to gold after 1925, Strong artificially depressed U.S. interest rates at a time the stock speculation fever was getting out of control in 1927, in effect adding fuel to the fire which led to the spectacular 1929 collapse.

    191. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Danathar · · Score: 1

      People talk about the Gold standard and then get crushed by critics.

      I want currency and banking COMPETITION. If gold wins so be it, if something else wins that is fine too. It's not gold in particular that I care about just something other than money backed by nothing other than "because"

    192. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

      You do realize that State governments are (at least under the US Constitution) allowed to have their own established religion, right? I don't like it, but the Feds have no legal power to prevent that sort of thing. The concept that they have the power to stop it is a legal fiction that someone just made up called the Incorporation Doctrine.

      Uhh.... no I don't think he supports vouchers. I don't think he wants government money to be entangled with education. In fact he believes that education is an issue best left to the State and local governments. Again, the Constitution grants the Feds no authority over the issue of education.

      And of course RP supporters look at his record, that's WHY they support him. Most of what the federal government does is unconstitutional and Ron doesn't vote for anything that is unconstitutional. It's just that simple.

      Either you are ignorant, or you are a troll. If it's the former, please take time to educate yourself. http://www.mises.org/ is a good place to start.

      --
      Libertas in infinitum
    193. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FDIC was created to fight an imaginary problem - only 2% of deposits were wiped out during the Depression,

      The FDIC was created to instill confidence in banks by removing the fear in depositers that they were going to lose their savings. Assuming that your 2% figure is accurate, runs on banks were very real and very destabilizing.

      but the prices fell by a much bigger amount due to the deflationary pressure, which was a healthy unwinding of the bubble, that the US government has created in the twenties, when it was buying UK debt, to prop up UK pound, so they inflated a huge bubble in agriculture, prices needed to go down and they fought it tooth and nail by printing so much money, it was obscene by those times.

      That's a whole lot of commas!

    194. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by ImprovOmega · · Score: 2

      The US absolutely did NOT become a super power until after the close of WWII. And in large part, that was thanks to the Germans (including Nazis) absorbed by the US.

      It had much more to do with Europe (the former economic super power) having completely wrecked its infrastructure following two major wars, while the U.S. had a completely intact infrastructure from a complete lack of being bombed into the stone age.

    195. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      The FDIC was created to instill confidence in banks by removing the fear in depositers that they were going to lose their savings. Assuming that your 2% figure is accurate, runs on banks were very real and very destabilizing.

      - yeah, great trick that governments do to get more power is to pretend that they can remove risk from the system and not to cause the system to become unbalanced in the long term.

      FDIC
      Freddie/Fannie
      FHA
      0% interest
      SS
      Medicare
      70 million cap on deep off-shore oil drilling
      FDA
      FAA
      EPA
      Department of education
      Department of small business
      Department of agriculture

      etc.etc.etc., all there to remove risk. All there eventually to cause some catastrophe.

    196. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by lysdexia · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid that for us, the living, that particular comedy of customs will forever be beyond this horizon.

    197. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      Gold is in a bubble right now so it's kind of disingenuous to say "look how much value gold has gained relative to inflation, let's pin our economy on that".

    198. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by omnichad · · Score: 1

      That was back in the day when people owned less "stuff" and felt less need for owning things. If a married couple owns two cars, a smartphone or two, a computer, paying a monthly Internet bill, you can see how people are forced to buy the cheapest thing possible by their own choices. International competition allows prices to be in line with what they can still afford. We can have cheap manufacturing too, if we weren't afraid of robots replacing jobs that people here won't do for that price anyway.

    199. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by lysdexia · · Score: 1

      It's really hard to clean snot and tea out of a keyboard. Thanks.

    200. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      What would be the incentive to invest and generate wealth in a deflationary economy? This is not a snarky comment, I'm genuinely curious why you say a deflationary model would be less painful.

    201. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by taiwanjohn · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, the way governments calculate the inflation rate is somewhere between hokus-pokus and a shell game. Since Clinton's day, the USA has been using the Boskin Commission guidelines which include such "creative" ideas as substitution, weighting, and hedonics.

      For example, last year you bought a 27" flat-screen TV for $295. This year the same model has a higher resolution screen but has the same price. So they calculate the price as $245, since you're getting more "value" for the same price. They also have ways of fudging the numbers the other direction, and may even go both ways on the same product in different contexts (say, inflation vs. GDP).

      Check shadowstats.com for details.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    202. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      money only gains value when it is exchanged. If i take my $100 gold coin to best buy and buy a TV, bust buy takes that gold coin and pays it's workers, those workers take that gold coin and buy lunch, those restaurants take that gold coin and buy a college education for their kids, those colleges take that gold coin and buy a global warming researcher, that global warming research takes that gold coin and buys a new car... already that single $100 gold coin has bought $500 worth of goods and services. It is encouragement of exchange that creates a booming economy, not printing or withholding cash.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    203. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      You can't get people back to work when they are dieing in the streets.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    204. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by taiwanjohn · · Score: 1

      The problem with gold as a currency base is that it's too easy to monopolize. Even silver is susceptible... back in the 70's there was a pair of investor brothers (can't remember their names off hand) who caused a bit of havoc in that market. The best option IMO is a fiat currency which is pegged (by statute) according to population growth.

      http://www.themoneymasters.com/monetary-reform-act/

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    205. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      As much as I liked "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Heinlein and "Earth" by Brin that aspect of the story always bothered me. Ultimately I think it is just an acknowledgment of the sentiment that utopia cannot be achieved by Human beings alone.

    206. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Deefburger · · Score: 1

      Gold, Silver, Commodity Money is a desireable thing because it eliminates your dependence upon the Fed or any other central bank to do business. It's not having a standard based on a stable tangible commodity that is causing the "crisis". The third world has seen this before. In Zimbabwe, gold was the only thing that could buy food when a wheelbarrow full of central bank notes couldn't. There is no problem with the economy that wasn't a direct result of the Central Bank and it's monopoly. How do you think the control happens? Magic? It's the monopoly on the creation of the currency that is the control. More of it means less value for you. The currency, the "Trillions of Dollars" that people seem to think is so much and so big and so valuable is actually worth NOTHING to the bank that created it! Get off your knees and stop being a sucker for central banking! Get back to a sound commodity currency and 100% reserve banking.

      --
      Most people are mostly good most of the time.
    207. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Syberz · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, Austria's economy was going quite well. They weathered the financial crisis while keeping the unemployment rate at 4.3%. Their debt to GPD ratio is at 72%, which is a bit high but still not as high as the US's 96%.

      Of course, Austrian Economics is a bit of an odd way of looking at things but it does explain in part why the markets collapsed even though inflation was in check. Basically, the inflation is maintained artificially low due to the monetary policies of the Fed; the cash injections and lending practices in place keep the inflation rate in check but doesn't stop the factors leading to financial collapse. This in turn tricks Keynesian economists into thinking that the economy is going well, because according to their models, it is... until it implodes on itself, like we've just seen.

      --
      ~Syberz
    208. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by powerlord · · Score: 1

      Power is increased through accumulation (saving), which is reserved not for itself, but for the sake of future spending and investing, whether or not there is a goal in mind for those savings. Whether or not you see it, spending must always come from savings. What about spending on credit? Well that is just a promise that you will save in the future. You are promising future savings for spending today. If you can't learn to save before spending then you will never catch up with your debt, and you will live out the rest of your life as a slave to your debt.

      Sounds like Apple's strategy in a nutshell.
      Oh wait ... what was the topic again?

      --
      This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
    209. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      Hey, I just thought I'd join in your post hoc ergo propter hoc party.

    210. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      It's actually not unusual for him to ally himself with the likes of Bernie Sanders (S-VT) and Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), because he will come to the same conclusions they do for completely different reasons.

      This should indicate something about the bill that they are voting on. If people who come from such different political perspectives can agree that a bill is bad or good then it is probably really is a good or bad bill.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    211. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Ron Paul follows the Austrian school of economics. They believe that mathematical models and statistics can't be used to analyze economics, and that you cannot conduct tests are experiments to determine the validity of economic theories.

      Actually you can't develop experiments to test the validity of economic theories since you really can't go and create the same initial conditions and rerun the great depression with different government actions to see what happens. If anything economics really is all about analysis since you just have a bunch of data and you are trying to predict what will happen if some action is taken.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    212. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying that "inflation" is never a problem, I'm saying that inflation isn't our problem right now.

      But that doesn't make any sense...just because it isn't happening right now doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about it. It'd be like saying "global warming isn't our problem right now", so why bother even thinking about it? We know that everything we're doing is pushing inflation and all the signs are heavily pointing in that direction. And we're actually capable of doing things to curb that inflation prior to it becoming dangerously out of control (in the same way we had the power to curb the housing bubble but didn't). Seriously, were you the same guy saying "nahhhh, housing prices _never_ fall, get back to me when they actually do"?

    213. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      And if not spending were indicative of economic strength, then nations where everyone lives in caves and there is no industry would be among the strongest in the world, because everyone's money would just sit in the bank.

      That would still be better than forcing people to buy shit they don't want under threat of their savings evaporating, which is essentially what you're arguing for when you say "inflation encourages spending and that's good!".

      Seriously, "no trade" is still better than "trade you only conducted because your savings would otherwise be raided".

      Spending is not good, folks. Rather, good spending is good. Spending that leaves both parties better off is good. Spending that only happens under thread of being jacked of your stuff is *not* good -- its a wholly different species, and not something that should be casually equated with the spending that happens when people buy stuff they genuinely want to consume.

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    214. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying gold doesn't have uses, just that it doesn't have very many compared to any number of other (far cheaper) metals and minerals. Proportional to its scarcity - if it wasn't valued for its shininess, it would be relatively worthless.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    215. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      Your comparison is what doesn't make sense. If global warming was actually about warming AND global cooling was a separate but different problem, then fine, I'll give it to you. Hyper inflation is what you are talking about (and what the conservative blogs and papers have been talking about as well for years) and it isn't happening. Moderate inflation isn't a bad thing. And in a depressed economy like ours it's actually a GOOD thing (as it reduces the level of existing debt, something that would be great for pushing us out of this housing mess). We're more in risk of deflation (hence the global warming example being bunk). Something that is much more difficult to control and much more difficult to recover from. You seem to be mixing things up. I don't think I said that housing prices won't fall. I said that we aren't having noticeable inflation right now and get back to me in a couple years if we do.

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    216. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      The old man & the crazy bitch would have done/not done exactly the same thing as O'Bomb-em-all/I'm-biden-my-time! The President/vice President do exactly as they are told by the big money bastards that REALLY put them in office!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    217. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by jmcvetta · · Score: 1

      Funny also how those union made shoes, which were almost certainly more expensive as a percent of income than SE Asian slave labor shoes, were constructed in such a way that they could be repaired & maintained over time. Cheap (always as percent of income) products and the environmentally disastrous disposable-culture go hand in hand.

    218. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      You're deluded if you don't think inflation isn't a problem.

      Wait ... what?

      You're deluded if you don't think inflation isn't a problem.
      !(don't think inflation isn't a problem.)
      !!(inflation isn't a problem.)
      !!!(inflation is a problem.)
      !(inflation is a problem.)
      Inflation isn't a problem.

      Really? If that's what you meant to say it sure is an odd way to phrase it. If it isn't what you meant then of course it's even odder.

      /even odder

    219. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      We're more in risk of deflation

      That's insane. There isn't a single indicator of possible deflation. Even the people claiming "omg, double dip recession" were proven handily incorrect. All the numbers are either stable or rising. Companies are having blowout quarters beating all estimates, hiring is trending up, unemployment is trending downward, housing is trending sideways. And on top of that, there's the aforementioned commodities spiking that will cause an inevitable increase in the cost of goods (which frankly we've already been seeing for a long time in things like gasoline, but the government just blissfully ignores that when calculating its bullshit CPI number). Hell, decreasing prices at the pump would be one of the best ways to kick the recovery into high gear -- but instead, they're focused on driving oil prices higher via dollar devaluation. Deflation is a near impossibility at this point. It's just another example of the Fed being woefully unaware and asleep at the wheel -- they're going to be once again way late to the party and no amount of slamming on the brakes will be able to slow the rampant inflation to come.

      By what evidence do you claim deflation is "more likely", let alone even a remote possibility. The charting trend is obvious, even if you do as the govt does and cheat by excluding food and gas: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/14/business/economy/14econ.html. Hell, even the retailers see the writing on the wall: http://inflation.us/blog/2011/03/major-retail-price-increases-coming-in-june/

    220. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by swilde23 · · Score: 1

      It's hard to argue with someone who get's their information from a site that advertises itself as "Preparing Americans for Hyperinflation". So I'm going to step out. Have fun with your gold...

      --
      There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand this sig, and those that beat up people who do.
    221. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      It's hard to argue with someone who ignores an entire paragraph and keys in only on the source (and not the material) of a single link. Have fun believing whatever you want to believe, regardless of the facts. Pesky things just get in the way anyways.

    222. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by KhabaLox · · Score: 1

      Correct. The value to the economy as a whole increases as knowledge is shared. This is (one of) the argument(s) for FOSS.

      But, if I am the only one who knows how to brew beer, how much would the market pay me for that knowledge? If everyone knows how to brew beer, how much would the market pay me for that knowledge? The forer is greater than the latter. Therefore, the value of a piece of knowledge decreases as more people possess it (ie as it becomes less scarce).

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    223. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish slashdot would implement "score 6". This post is important and shouldn't be overlooked. Personally, I agree, namely with the second paragraphy.

      Our printing of money should be based on what is produced. Although, we could go further and require that it is based on real production of commodities, and not speculation. Do they print money based on real estate speculation?

    224. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Gold is very scarce. All of it now in the control of men could fit in a cube a little more than 20m on a side.

    225. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Annual production of titanium if 99,000 tonnes, gold is 2,800 tonnes. Gold has a presence no more than 4 parts per billion in the crust, titianium 5 parts per thousand. A difference in rarity of 6 orders of magnitude. If your mass represented titanium, gold could be represented a be a drop of water. Titanium can be lit on fire, gold can not be, and the medical uses don't tend to overlap. Better comparators would be palladium, platinum, or irridium all of which are still fairly expensive. While a portion of the price reflects it's demand in a medium of exchange there's not reason to believe it would ever be as cheap as titanium, and if it were all the stockpiles would be consumed and the price would rise again.

    226. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      If some one creates a way to artifically produce gold on a vast scale, then what?

      Then it would be fiat currency. What an absurd line of reasoning.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    227. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Where do you live?

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    228. Re:Ron Paul 2012 by volpe · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that there ought to be (and, in fact, there are) more productive uses of gold than to have it sit in a vault serving as backing store for another medium of exchange.

  2. Isn't this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Among the investigation's key findings is that the Fed unilaterally provided trillions of dollars in financial assistance to foreign banks and corporations from South Korea to Scotland, according to the GAO report. "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said."

    So the quote says no agency *should* be able to do this, but I thought it was actually illegal. Is this not the case since the Federal Reserve is actually a private entity?

    1. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Ruie · · Score: 2
      I do not see $16T in the actual document - is this an integrate number (i.e. the sum of all loans provided over the time period) ? Everybody should keep in mind that Fed provides overnight loans which have to be returned the next day. If the bank needs more money they do it again so the figure multiplies quickly.

      The quick look at plots shows that the maximum amount (in 2008) was below $1T.

    2. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are these outstanding loans right now or have they been paid back yet? If so who cares?

    3. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not illegal if no one enforces the law against it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Isn't this illegal? by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      I honestly don't know why anybody's surprised.

      The Federal Reserve is a private bank and a monopoly. It is no different than your local electric or cable or utility monopoly. Naturally these private corporate monopolies serve (a) themselves and (b) their fellow corporate colleagues while (c) not giving a damn about the citizens.

      So a Private Central Bank bailed out other private banks, and did nothing for the citizens. Color me unsurprised.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    5. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this not the case since the Federal Reserve is actually a private entity?

      You've provided your own answer:

      the Federal Reserve is actually a private entity

      The Federal Reserve is not an agency of the United States government .

      Pity people don't seem to understand that. Oh well, we didn't need a strong currency or sound fiscal policy anyway.

    6. Re:Isn't this illegal? by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Its worth mentioning that Goldman Sachs pulls most of the strings at the US Federal Reserve.

    7. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      That's a whole lot of BS. The Federal Reserve is most certainly an agency of the US government. It's board members are appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate for limited terms. Salaries are set by legislation. They can be removed for ethical and criminal acts by impeachment by the senate. You are confusing private with independent. You cannot buy shares in the Fed. No private individual owns the Fed. Go to the federal reserve's website. www.federalreserve.GOV

    8. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Although in the present day, I could just as well be describing General Motors, which used to be a private company.

    9. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Kelbear · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's on page 131, table 8, bottom right:

      In short, it's a pretty absurdly inflated number. Loaning 10 billion for 1 day, and doing it for 30 days, is counted as 300 billion of loans, rather than a 10 billion 30-day loan.

      "Table 8 aggregates total dollar transaction amounts by adding the total dollar amount of all loans but does not adjust these amounts to reflect differences across programs in the term over which loans were outstanding. For example, an overnight PDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30
      business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300 billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30... In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to the total transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made loans for periods longer than overnight"

      Further, this is pretty much regular operations of the Fed as part of their work in stabilizing the economy through monetary policy. It's what they were made to do.

      The GAO is pointing out failures in controls. Offering some perspective as a public company auditor (not a government auditor) I see failures in control all over because there is the concept of an ideal control environment, but every control represents additional costs and times, and general inefficiency. It adds hoops to jump through to get things done. At some point companies look at the risk and the cost needed to implement additional controls on that risk and decide that it's not worth it to strive for 100% security against a problem that may or may not exist. However, auditors point out these risks because that's their job, and the risks are real, whether or not the cost/benefit makes sense. In this specific case, revolving around conflicts of interest, there's only so much you can do, but considering the nature of the issue, it is damned important to have strong controls in these area. In summary, it's not suprising to see control deficiencies, and control deficiencies are not evidence of fraud or misstatement, but it's always better to have less control risk.

    10. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Dracos · · Score: 2

      Has your stolen bicycle been returned yet? If so, who cares?

    11. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Among the investigation's key findings is that the Fed unilaterally provided trillions of dollars in financial assistance to foreign banks and corporations from South Korea to Scotland, according to the GAO report. "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said."

      So the quote says no agency *should* be able to do this, but I thought it was actually illegal. Is this not the case since the Federal Reserve is actually a private entity?

      The Federal Reserve is not in any meaningful sense a private entity. The board is appointed. The "shareholders" are member banks which are required to be members to be part of the Federal Reserve clearing system. They have shares on which the maximum return is fixed. The rest of the profits are remitted to the Treasury. It is a "private" institution in the sense that it is not a wholly-owned subsidiary of government, but it is not "private" in any normal sense of the word.

      The complaints about foreign banks being able to access dollar liquidity strike me as being as short-sited as complaining about the fire department putting out a fire at an IKEA. The fact is that the US dollar is a world reserve currency, which means it is used in payments all around the world. If a foreign-owned bank is integrated into the US payment system it surely deserves to be treated pari-passu with the rest - how can you have a two-tier banking system where 25% of businesses don't get paid on time because their customers use a bank that happens to be owned by a holding company that is owned by another bank that is owned by Koreans or Germans?

      Other measures such as the extra-ordinary swap line with the European Central Bank were motivated by the very large imbalances being the US and Europe. US depositors put money in money-market funds, which invested in the short-term commercial paper market (essentially corporate IOUs). The commercial paper market included a lot of issuance from European banks. These banks were trying to expand very fast - faster than they could do so in "real" banking in Europe so they were borrowing money and investing in CDOs, Mortgage-backed securities and the like that were largely issued from the US. There were therefore large gross flows of capital across the Atlantic, but small net flows. When the money-market funds started to collapse after Lehman fell, led by the Primary Reserve Fund, the money market funds pulled all their funding from everything except US Government paper (IOUs). Therefore the European banks were screwed. They needed a new source of US dollar funding or else they would have to default on their obligations to the MMF or sell their US assets into a fire-sale at near-zero prices. Either would have made the collapse even worse for the US, not just for Europe.

      What seems sad to me is that a lot of people seem hyper-skeptical of the explanations, research papers and financial statements on the websites of the Federal Reserve, ECB, RBA, BoE etc, but they are willing to buy into any theory offered by a hyperactive Youtube user because it just makes all the chaos seem to fit a narrative - things may be shit, but at least they aren't random.

    12. Re:Isn't this illegal? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Worth mentioning, also, that although the Federal Reserve earns a profit, nearly 100 percent of those profits are turned over to the Federal Treasury. The Fed makes money for the U.S. government.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    13. Re:Isn't this illegal? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Right. So If the Fed is a greedy private corporation, it voluntarily allows 94% of it's profits to be confiscated. Not likely.

  3. Let me be the first to say 'oh cock'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Holy fuck. I'm not voting for anybody of my federal representatives that are currently in office in the next election. Fuck'em all. Only a select few in congress have earned my trust. The rest need to go.

    1. Re:Let me be the first to say 'oh cock'. by paiute · · Score: 1

      Holy fuck. I'm not voting for anybody of my federal representatives that are currently in office in the next election. Fuck'em all. Only a select few in congress have earned my trust. The rest need to go.

      You only get to vote for a maximum of two congresspeople at any one election. It doesn't matter if Representatives or Senators from other voting areas have earned your trust or not. You don't get to vote for them. Besides, remember the old truism: My guy's okay, but the rest of those pols are crooks.

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    2. Re:Let me be the first to say 'oh cock'. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice knee jerk reaction there. Yes, I should definitely trust your opinion.

  4. Surprise! by jimmerz28 · · Score: 1

    I wish I had a surprise face for this, but things like this just don't seem to surprise me anymore.

    They're almost expected?

    1. Re:Surprise! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A question mark, by dint of its nature, nay indeed its very name, provides the reader with the information that what is written preceding the question mark (and follows the previous terminating punctuation character, if one exists) is indeed a question. Examples of such include "What is your name?", "Who are you?", and "Why did you put a question mark at the end of a declarative statement?"

  5. 16 trillion? A typo? by Guspaz · · Score: 2

    I don't see how the federal reserve could have given out 16 trillion in secret loans when that represents more than five times the total assets of the federal reserve... Am I missing something? The GAO's report never mentions this figure.

    1. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Jeng · · Score: 1

      As someone else mentioned the Federal Reserve does overnight loans for banks and that if they are not paid back that day then there is a new overnight loan the next day, and the next, and the next, etc. Which really makes the totals add up quick even if the amount borrowed was not much initially.

      And these are Loans, not gifts, they get paid back.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    2. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by jimmerz28 · · Score: 1

      Search the GAO PDF for "trillion" and you'll find several instances.

      Look at the CitiGroup bailout, they were worth "Citigroup was the second largest banking organization in the United States, with total consolidated assets of approximately $2 trillion."

    3. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a poster suggested above, these were overnight loans that were almost immediately repaid.

    4. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MrQuacker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Thats total, not at once. Lend out $100 Billion to someone on Monday night, they pay it back Tuesday morning, and borrow it again Tuesday night to pay back Wednesday morning. Do that for a week and you just lent out a Trillion.

    5. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MikeyC01 · · Score: 1

      Thats total, not at once. Lend out $100 Billion to someone on Monday night, they pay it back Tuesday morning, and borrow it again Tuesday night to pay back Wednesday morning. Do that for a week and you just lent out a Trillion.

      Or $700 billion but what's a few billion between friends :)

    6. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      In calculating this figure: Loaning 10 billion for 1 day, and doing it for 30 days, is counted as 300 billion of loans, rather than a 10 billion 30-day loan.

      Basically it's just a lot of overnight loans, which is simply what the Fed is for.

    7. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by acoustix · · Score: 1

      Hopefully it was more than $700B. They should've charged interest and made money.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    8. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Note that the Fed works on a deca-week, not the seven day week used by the unwashed masses. It would take two five-day work weeks to reach the Trillion $$ lent out in one deca-week!

    9. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      What those someone else's mentioned is the "federal funds rate". This is is the interest rate at which depository institutions lend balances at the Federal Reserve to other depository institutions overnight. It's currently running at 0.0% to 0.25% depending on just who is doing the asking and the loaning.
                There's no theoretical obstacle to taking very short term loans like these every normal banking day of the year, so, in theory, one receiving depository could borrow about 288 trillion dollars in the course of a year without the lending institution ever having more than 1 trillion out. These are huge banks that do plenty of business at night, on weekends and such, and maybe they could also borrow at the best rate on odd weekends or holidays, but supposedly, member institutions are supposed to plan for such routine conditions as a lot of people wanting some spending money for Friday evening, or Social Security checks coming on the 3rd of the month, so maybe they would have a hard time getting immediate coverage on some days for some situations.
                In practice, if one particular bank needed to borrow overnight nearly that often, eventually its interest rate would start to go above these marginal courtesy rates and if it was still having the same problems, soon the other depositories would make individual decisions to stop lending to them at all, but the reserve rules don't force all the banks into lockstep on doing these deals.
                15 trillion can be explained if the average member reserve bank borrows overnight about once a month, and that would result in an average risk of 'only' 1/2 a trillion total. Since the numbers are probably not that evenly distributed, real worst case risk might have been 0.75 trillion or even 1 full trillion on some particular days.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    10. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      The Fed's overnight loan rate has been near zero since 2008 in a just barely successful effort to prevent runaway deflation. It is technically possible for them to make the overnight rate effectively negative if it had become necessary, but I can't imagine what uninformed pundits would tell the even more uninformed public if that were to happen.

    11. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by cartman · · Score: 1

      The federal reserve doesn't require assets to make loans. It can create dollars out of thin air, then deposit or loan those dollars. Whereas private banks must take money from elsewhere when making a deposit or loan, the fed can write a check for any amount, and that check draws upon nothing and doesn't deduct money from any other account when it's deposited.

    12. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by PoopCat · · Score: 1

      Please lend me $1000. I will pay you back at $100 a day for the next seven days, after which time I shall owe you nothing.

    13. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      super mod up. I'm no fan of the federal reserve, but it's important to understand the facts.

      This is exactly the same type of bad math that happened to a friend of mine who had $5000 in a Scottrade account.

      At the beginning of the year, he bought $5000 worth of stock. Then he sold it for a $500 loss. Then he bought $4500 worth of some other stock. Then he sold it for a $1000 gain. Then he bought $5500 worth of stock. Then he sold it for $3800, taking a nice $1700 haircut. Then he bought $3800 worth of stock, and sold it for $5000. Rinse, wash repeat a few times, you get the picture. Then he stayed in cash at the end of the year.

      His net at the end of the year? approx. ZERO.

      He started the year with $5000, and ended the year with $5000.

      Then he got a letter from the morons at the IRS, that he owed capital gains on $73,500 worth of sales.

      He was very pissed.

    14. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      I have repaid every loan I've ever taken early (sometimes by years). Can I get a one day trillion dollar loan? Please? Oh, and if I don't pay it back tomorrow, can I keep it until the next day? Please? And then the next day? Please?

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    15. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      We created the Fed to make gargantuan loans to foreign entities?

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    16. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Sure. Let me see some collateral.

    17. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Bramlet+Abercrombie · · Score: 1

      In a world where it takes money to make money, how is it fair that these banks can get loans but I cannot? I thought the whole reason I wasn't rich was because I was not as successful competing in this free market. Turns out the game is rigged.

    18. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 2

      I see, the standard is higher for me.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    19. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 1

      How many billions in a trillion? Seven hundred? I thought it was more like one thousand or one million depending on if you use long scale or short scale. To demonstrate how much a more a trillion is than a billion, think of it as time.

      1 million seconds = 11.5 Days (< a fortnight)
      1 billion seconds = 31.6 years (a quarter of a life time)
      1 trillion seconds = 31,688 years (>8 times the length of recorded history)



      Ya, a trillion is a LOT bigger than a billion.

    20. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by kmoser · · Score: 1

      Sure: As a US citizen and taxpayer, I'm a shareholder of the US Gov't and all its assets.

    21. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by EdwardJohansson · · Score: 1

      Look up fractional reserve banking. Theoretically, if they were to loan out $16 trillion in one go (at the effective average reserve rate of 3%) they would only be required to be holding $480 billion in reserve (which in turn can be from incoming payments from other loans).

    22. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you are looking to get people's rant on you can not pay any attention to the details.

      Over night loans have been a standard way for banks, finance house, government to maintain liquidity in the market for as long as these places have existed. The fact most people don't know about the transactions (because the people are stupid not because they were hidden) makes it a sensational headline. Now quit being logical and start panicking. It's what you need to do to help save the USA for the terrorists.

      Idiots.

    23. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Danathar · · Score: 1

      You do understand fractional banking right? The Federal Reserve system is not limited to creating currency that they have actual assets for. This is why the dollar is a "fiat" currency.

    24. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Not particularly... Foreign banks like the Federal Reserve might have questionable practices that make it important for Americans to know how it works, but the Bank of Canada has given Canadians little cause to bone up on the inner workings of our banking system. It does a pretty good job.

    25. Re:16 trillion? A typo? by DriedClexler · · Score: 2

      Collateral or not, short-term or not, a loan at 1% APR (or whatever obscenely below-market rate they charged) is pretty fucking sweet, and the fact that the Fed doesn't extend this offer to everyone, but only the "important people" should tell you something. If nothing else, the difference between the market cost of such a loan, and the price the Fed charged, is the magnitude of the subsidy.

      Which means that all of these firms did, in fact, get a free handout just for being "special".

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  6. A one liner solution would be great by Marrow · · Score: 2

    But I am unsure how the the powers of the Executive Branch can force a change.
    1. He only gets to sign or veto bills written by other people.
    2. He has no control over the airwaves that would be saturated by very desperate people who want to keep things the same.
    3. He will want to get re-elected.

    1. Re:A one liner solution would be great by peragrin · · Score: 1

      shhhh!!! the president is all powerful and can do whatever they like, stop limiting delusions os fools by showing them reality.

      Seriously any one who wants to be president should never be allowed to have the job. The president gets all the blame, very little glory, and once your there your done, I am what can you do afterwards except talk about what you did do.

      Personally we should everyone's name in a hat and randomly pick a person like the lottery. you play power ball you could win X millions of dollars and you stand a one in a 10 million chance of being president too.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:A one liner solution would be great by geekoid · · Score: 1

      8 years of the media, and varies branches telling us the president is all powerful has confused some people.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:A one liner solution would be great by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      The president can order all troops to come home, saving thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of lives as well as hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars. The president can investigate every nook and cranny of the Federal Government. Set the focus of the law enforcement arms. Appoint reasonable people to the myriad commissions and czar positions. This is list is inconclusive yet would still be a lot of change.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    4. Re:A one liner solution would be great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The president can order all troops to come home

      So could Congress, but they won't because the Democrats don't want to get in their man's way, and the Republicans (McCain) actually stood up and said they didn't want to do anything that might hold back a Republican president, so they aren't doing anything about it either.

      The president can investigate every nook and cranny of the Federal Government.

      So can Congress, but they're too busy dicking around with guys who play with their balls, and whining about being lied to.

      Set the focus of the law enforcement arms

      He can only enforce the laws Congress passes... legally, anyway. He could choose not to enforce the laws Congress passes, but then he would be in violation of his oath to uphold the laws faithfully.

      Appoint reasonable people to the myriad commissions and czar positions.

      Only to those positions created by Congress. If the acts creating the EPA were to be cancelled by Congress (perhaps over a presidential veto) there'd be no clean air czar spot to fill, and if he tried to create one, it wouldn't have any legal power to do anything but stand there and whine (for free, absent a budget).

      The so-called all-powerful "unitary executive" is a myth made up by Bush supporters who needed to justify Bush doing whatever he pleased.

    5. Re:A one liner solution would be great by peragrin · · Score: 1

      8 years hah! Try 80 years. It is one of the few things FDR did that i dont agree with. While truman and Esinhower tried to tone it back down, the damage was done, with each succesive president trying to one up the previous in how much they weild.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    6. Re:A one liner solution would be great by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      The real power of the presidency is the bully pulpit. Bush Jr. used it to great affect. It's a shame his policies were so disastrous through.

    7. Re:A one liner solution would be great by Risen888 · · Score: 1

      He only gets to sign or veto bills written by other people.

      Since his election, President Obama has enacted no fewer than 91 executive orders.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
  7. Bravo! by steelfood · · Score: 0

    Now let's put these criminals who've stolen trillions from the American people behind bars.

    Oh wait.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    1. Re:Bravo! by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stolen?
      They made overnight loans on which the Fed profited. Meaning they reduced the amount the American people owe.

    2. Re:Bravo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do you see trillions stolen ?
      It's loans for god sakes and futhermore probably loans with very short echeances.
      I would not even be surprised if the totally of it has already been repaid interest added.

    3. Re:Bravo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Now let's put these criminals who've stolen trillions from the American people behind bars.

      Oh wait.

      They're already behind bars... of gold.

    4. Re:Bravo! by cosm · · Score: 2

      Are you telling me when the Federal Reserve profits that money goes into reducing the deficit? I thought they were a pseodo-private institution?

      --
      'We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress.' RPF
    5. Re:Bravo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, plus seniorage money (minus reserve acquisition, and so on). The "profits" goes back to the Federal government, like any other Central Bank in the world.

      It's not a "pseudo private" institution.

      It's independent.

      Like any other Central Bank in the world.

      It really amazes me how such a fucking great country like US can generate the really bizarre number of loons with conspiracy theories about the it's own government.

      And apple pie. I really enjoyed apple pie. Keep doing that.

  8. This is well known by sgent · · Score: 5, Informative

    Its not some sort of secret, it has been disclosed by the Fed in their annual reports as required by law.

    FORTUNE -- The bailout of the financial system is roughly as popular as Wall Street bonuses, the federal budget deficit, or LeBron James in a Cleveland sports bar. You hear over and over that the bailout was a disaster, it cost taxpayers a fortune, we didn't really need it, it didn't work, it was a failure. It has become politically toxic, which inhibits reasoned public discussion about it.

    But you know what? The bailout, by the numbers, clearly did work. Not only did it forestall a worldwide financial meltdown, but a Fortune analysis shows that U.S. taxpayers are coming out ahead on it -- by at least $40 billion, and possibly by as much as $100 billion eventually. This is our count for the entire bailout, not just the 3% represented by the massively unpopular Troubled Asset Relief Program. Yes, that's right -- TARP is only about 3% of the bailout, even though it gets about 97% of the attention.

    http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/08/surprise-the-big-bad-bailout-is-paying-off/ Fortune Magazine Article

    1. Re:This is well known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Great, profit for those who put the US in the position of having to bail them out in the first place.

    2. Re:This is well known by rcb1974 · · Score: 2

      When you claim that the bailout worked, do you factor into your conclusion that 2011 dollars are worth about 20% less than 2008 dollars, due to inflation? Oh, and don't believe the CPI values that the government comes up with -- those are manipulated lower so that the government doesn't have to increase Social Security payouts.

    3. Re:This is well known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It worked well for the banks and the US government. US citizens, however, are still taking it good and hard, just like we always do.

    4. Re:This is well known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what would 2011 dollars be worth compared to 2008 if the bailout didn't happen and the large banks were all allowed to collapse?

      We don't know and never will, because we can't re-run the experiment, but I'll bet the difference would have been a lot more than 20%.

    5. Re:This is well known by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      Bail outs did not work because the same institutions that were bailed out are just as insolvent today, as they are now loaning from the Fed's discount window and making a spread by buying/holding T-Bills. Once the interest rate goes up, they fail, and real interest is going up, Fed won't be able to hold interest down as long as it's printing, and it will continue to print.

      Fed now cannot even technically be bankrupt, as a couple of months ago, the Fed changed the rules, that any liabilities it holds actually count towards its balance with the Treasury, so any liabilities of the Fed are now your liabilities.

      About 1/3 of the mortgage market was underwater, now is owned by the Treasury - you, the 'taxpayer'.

      The real bail outs are still coming, the States, the municipalities, then businesses again, probably student loans, etc. This won't stop, because bail outs are exactly the instruments that don't let it stop by letting the market get rid of the companies that must fail and the debt that must be written off.

      Those same banks that were bailed out will fail again shortly.

    6. Re:This is well known by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      So I shouldn't believe the government's numbers but I should believe yours?

    7. Re:This is well known by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Yes. The problem is many people don't understand.

      The bailouts work in that the US economy didn't completely collapse.
      People seem to thing the bailouts working means things won't get bad.
      They are bad, but not nearly as bad as they would of been otherwise. Look at what happened in Japan when this happened. Look at pretty much in country this type of collapse happened.

      I do wonder if letting it crash would have been better for us in the long run. Meaning better regulations and controls. But that's a different thing altogether.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    8. Re:This is well known by m.dillon · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't just believe every bit of sensational news bits you hear on T.V. This isn't even remotely true.

      You know, the same sort of crap screwed up the municipal bond market for almost 6 months. One talking head on T.V. and suddenly the mob thinks munis are going to collapse when, in fact, the default rate was actually going down to historic lows.

      -Matt

    9. Re:This is well known by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      The unfunded liabilities are what, about 114 trillion? Today US lives only because the interest payments are low, they won't stay low, just like they didn't stay low for the variable rate teaser mortgages.

    10. Re:This is well known by exentropy · · Score: 1

      taxpayers are coming out ahead -- by at least $40 billion

      This is fallacious -- the taxpayer never comes out ahead financially (excluding the ones who are subsidized by the government). The author of that article is implying that, somehow, the taxpayer is gaining money -- an idea totally contrary to taxation.

    11. Re:This is well known by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The report says otherwise. On page 2:
      During and after the crisis, some members of Congress and others
      expressed concern that certain details of the Federal Reserve System’s
      emergency lending activities, including the names of borrowers receiving
      loans, were kept confidential. In addition, certain ties between Reserve
      Banks and financial institutions, such as those with a director on a
      Reserve Bank’s board of directors, raised questions about whether the
      Federal Reserve System took appropriate steps to prevent favoritism and
      mitigate conflicts of interest.

      Subscript 3 says the Fed released names and other info on these loans Dec1 2010.
       

    12. Re:This is well known by m.dillon · · Score: 2

      More horse-tripe, unfortunately. 'Unfunded liabilities' is just another way of projecting a deficit into the future and assuming nothing will ever be done to deal with it. It's a fun way to come up with a big-assed number but worthless in any real discussion.

      The reality is that no deficit survives long enough to come remotely close to the numbers the talking heads spew out. Changes are made (or forced to be made) long before then.

      Just like the 'hundreds of trillions' of dollars of face value people were screaming about for CDSs, these numbers are meaningless. You are taking the scare-mongers statements hook line and sinker without bothering to understand what the numbers actually mean.

      Here's a little hint: Everything congress mandates comes out of somebody's pocket. 'Funded' vs 'Unfunded' is a feel-good gimick used by politicians. It doesn't matter how it is designated. You know, our two wars have been unfunded as well... congress simply tacked their costs onto the debt and didn't count them at all in their budgets. For ten fracking years.

      Similarly if you were to talk about, say, Medicare, throwing around big numbers won't help you actually solve the problem.

      p.s. this is also why people generally have no clue as to how healthy or non-healthy the banking system is. From an investor's standpoint the banking system is still in trouble, but from a fundamental solvency standpoint the banking system is not. Anyone looking for a large U.S. bank to go under due to mortgages or European debt or whatever is going to be mightily confused when it doesn't materialize.

      We got the same tripe with the FDIC too. People were screaming about the FDIC's balance sheet going negative and having to dig into their line of credit with the Fed. It didn't happen, and anyone with a clue knew it wouldn't happen. But the screaming masses listening to the talking heads thought it might and some people (obviously) STILL think it might. Sigh.

      In anycase, if you want to talk meaningful numbers then stick to the actual debt, which is $14T. Stick to current costs (medicare is good fodder here, but Social security isn't). There's plenty to talk about there without having to throw out meaningless synthesized numbers.

      -Matt

    13. Re:This is well known by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      More horse-tripe, unfortunately. 'Unfunded liabilities' is just another way of projecting a deficit into the future and assuming nothing will ever be done to deal with it.

      - no, unfunded liabilities means that there are debts, liabilities that have no funding behind them.

      As in they are only funded on paper with IOUs, that are US Treasury T-bills that need to be sold. Somebody has to buy them. On the other hand if US could scrap the entire liability situation, as in default on its payments for these unfunded liabilities, then it would deal with its debt. By defaulting, just like it did in 1971, when it defaulted on its promise to pay gold for US dollars.

      When you say

      assuming nothing will ever be done to deal with it.

      what exactly do you mean by 'deal with it'? US cannot deal with it in any way, that requires paying these out in actual money that is actually worth anything.

      Imagine yourself, owing 100 million dollars to a bunch of people, with whatever current salary that you have. How would you 'deal with it'? The only way you can deal with it is by refusing to pay, declaring yourself a bankrupt and then having an sale, paying down something, but basically a penny on a thousand dollars or something to that tune.

      US can deal with it the same way. It doesn't have the revenue to deal with it by funding it, but it can deal with it by stopping the payments. The worst thing that US could do is to print more money to 'deal with it' by inflating the dollar further, because that will cause hyperinflation and insane interest rates. Unfortunately it looks like that's going to the the modus operandi here.

      The reality is that no deficit survives long enough to come remotely close to the numbers the talking heads spew out. Changes are made (or forced to be made) long before then.

      - you think debt is magic, and solutions are magical. No no, this debt is real and there is no revenue to cover it and there will be no revenue to cover it, especially given what the government is doing to 'deal with it'. Inflation will drive more capital out of US, the production capacity will diminish further, the US consumer will lose all ability to buy foreign goods, as the foreigners will stop supplying them, because what foreigners are doing now is gifting the US with their goods, they are not selling them, they are giving them away, it's a charity, because they are absorbing worthless dollars and bonds by printing their own currency and they are lending US the money to buy their own products and they build the products.

      US will default on their debts of-course by destroying the dollar and the foreigners will get nothing in return for all that manufacturing they did to provide US consumers with all those goods. So it's going to be a few lost generations of manufacturing for the foreigners, while they are on a quest to devalue their own money to subsidize the US consumer.

      Just like the 'hundreds of trillions' of dollars of face value people were screaming about for CDSs, these numbers are meaningless. You are taking the scare-mongers statements hook line and sinker without bothering to understand what the numbers actually mean.

      - no, you don't understand that those are now products/assets and liabilities that US tax payer owns through the Fed and now the Treasury, as the Fed changed the way it deals with the Treasury. Those are real losses that must be accounted for. They are on US Treasury books, at their former 'valuations', which are insanely high and need to come down by a disturbing factor (I don't know, by a million? I don't know.) The point is that that those are in your possession, on the books and they cannot be sold at their book value. It's impossible.

      Here's a little hint: Everything congress mandates comes out of somebody's pocket. 'Funded' vs 'Unfunded' is a feel-good gimick used by politicians. It doesn't matter how it

    14. Re:This is well known by Danathar · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but maybe not. The counter factual of "it would of been worse" is hard to prove.

    15. Re:This is well known by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      The unfunded liabilities are what, about 114 trillion?

      Correct, according the the US national debt clock they are currently about 114 trillion. The problem with the concept of unfunded liabilities is that they are based on current spending and rates of increase projected out some arbitrary amount of time. Currently I think they are projecting these values out for 50 or 75 years. Projecting things that far in the future when it comes to government spending is basically worthless.

      --
      Time to offend someone
  9. And the sheeps will go on with their lives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There will be no uprise, there will be no pause
    There will be no protest or justice call

    Seriously, this level of corruption in the government should hold serious consequences (meaning federal imprisonment) but the most that will happen is that the perpetrators will get a slap on the wrist and this issues will get swept under the rug.

    1. Re:And the sheeps will go on with their lives by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 1

      Not even that. The mobsters and their loyal servants in Congress, the White House, the Dept. of Justice, and all of their various dependencies will continue to successfully pretend none of that happened. Republicans will pretend that Job Creators were protected and Democrats will say and do nothing. The mobsters will continue to accumulate vast wealth, a lot of it apparently created out of thin air.

      Here's how to vote next year, if you're in the U.S.

  10. Great job Federal Reserve! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is all very interesting, but doesn't look like much new. Hopefully next time around, you'll get a leader who will arrange some laws for your financial markets, not just say that he will. And after that, we hope that the other side does not vote it down. Though I'm not sure if Obama's regulation efforts needed any shooting down by republicans.

  11. Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OK, so they loaned out a truly epic amount of money. A reasonable thing to do during a crisis: you borrow money to get through the bad times, then you pay it back when times are better.

    The questions are:

    * Did they pay it back?
    * Did they pay interest?
    * How much?

    I don't really care about the absolute dollar figure: this was an international crisis and the dollar figures are going to be proportional to the size of economies, which will measure in the trillions. As long as the net result was that the economy survived (which it did), that it didn't blow up inflation rates (which it didn't; inflation was negative for a while), and that in the end the books balance (thus my questions).

    It may well be that the interest rates were so low as to be questionable, especially given that the banks have been giving nonexistent interest to depositors and have been very chary about turning that money around to investment. But I'm not going to wring my hands over the size of it. I'm more concerned about the terms.

    1. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please don't turn around in a year or so and tell me that you've got a problem with wealth inequality or the top 0.1% owning the assets. Because that is exactly what this king of bullshit is helping to perpetuate. The financial institutions "saved" (in quotes because they are still totally insolvent but we hid that after FASB 157) are robbing pension funds, savers, and the elderly of hundreds of billions in interest income every year to cover up the insolvency.

      The economy did not "survive" and inflation did in fact "blow up." I guess you don't go to the gas station or grocery store. The US has devalued it's currency (pull up a chart of DXY) to prop up Too-Big-To-Fail financial institutions and fuck the American people. We now have real-negative interest rates to help Bank of America, Citi, and the rest of the insolvent bunch pay out record bonuses.

    2. Re:Did they pay it back? by Fishbulb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      * Did they pay their taxes to support such an institution?

    3. Re:Did they pay it back? by lkcl · · Score: 1

      no, the economy didn't "survive": basic economic rules were completely ignored (repeatedly, dating back some 80+ years), and a policy of hyperinflation put in its place. you need to read senator ron paul's book, "end the fed" to fully grasp what's going on, here.

      but, to give you an idea, and a good comparison: the policy of taking the brakes off of the U.S. Federal Reserve - allowing them, beginning in 2006, a license quite literally to print money - is very similar to what the hitler government did in between the 1st and 2nd world war. the reichmark was *massively* hyper-inflated (ironically allowing them to completely pay off the 1st world war "reparations") so much so that they had in the end to abandon that currency and come out with the "deutchsmark" instead.

      unfortunately in this case, the currency being hyperinflated is the one that is used world-wide as a "Reserve Currency" for international trade. thus, it becomes necessary not just for the U.S.A. to hyerinflate their currency, but also for all currencies pegged to the USD to do the same. this is why there have been 19 "favoured countries" who have received sickeningly-large amounts of money in order to bail them out.

      as the major currencies hyper inflate (all at the same rate) everything all looks peachy, but the reality is that if this hyperinflation policy were to be stopped, the concept of money - in every major country - would collapse. this is the only thing that ron paul has, in my opinion, wrong. ron paul advocates returning to the "Gold Standard", to bite the bullet and to allow market forces to take their course in the buying up of remaining valued assets as numerous corrupt, big-bonus-paying banks collapse. unfortunately, i believe that the whole system is so far gone in its level of corruption and hyperinflation that it's far too late for that, and it just has to be sustained through further continued hyperinflation until even that is just blindingly obviously not working.

      in the meantime: buy gold. not "gold certificates": those are a scam, as the ratio required to be held by the bond issuer of actual gold to the quantity of bonds issued is: 100 to 1. buy actual real gold.

    4. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      According to cnn/fortune, yes, they did (in general) pay it back, with interest.

      They are claiming that the US government is currently running a $40 billion profit on the bailout loans, and when it's all done, should have over $100 billion profit. http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/07/08/surprise-the-big-bad-bailout-is-paying-off/

    5. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You (and/or Ron Paul) have no fucking idea what you're talking about. You keep throwing around the word "hyperinflation" to describe a timespan in which the US skirted deflation.

      The "buy gold" at the end is just the icing on the crazy.

    6. Re:Did they pay it back? by jhsiao · · Score: 2

      Did they pay it back? Page 2 of the GAO report: "To date, most of the Reserve Banksâ(TM) emergency loans have been repaid, and FRBNY projects repayment on all outstanding loans."

      Did they pay interest? Page 17: "To ease stresses in these markets, on August 17, 2007, the Federal Reserve Board made two temporary changes to the terms at which Reserve Banks extended loans through the discount window. First, it approved the reduction of the discount rateâ"the interest rate at which the Reserve Banks extended collateralized loans at the discount windowâ"by 50 basis points."

      A reduction in the interest rate by 0.50%. The discount rate was already pretty low IIRC.

      What basically happened was all the banks were terrified of lending money to each other because of counterparty risk (banks weren't sure of their counterparties' exposure to credit default swaps). So there was a credit crisis since noone wanted to risk lending any money to each other for daily business operations. So the fed stepped in and offered tons of cheap credit so that the banks could continue to operate.

      See http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/05/07/whiteboard-counterparty-risk/

    7. Re:Did they pay it back? by sjames · · Score: 1

      The next question then is why couldn't the people getting tossed from their homes when their refi went south get in on that loan action?

    8. Re:Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 2

      Thanks for actually reading a very lengthy FA.

      In return: the discount rate is very low now (.75%) but in August 2007, it was 5.75% for primary credit. (That is the lowered discounted rate; it had been 6.25% before that.)

      http://www.frbdiscountwindow.org/historicalrates.cfm?hdrID=20&dtlID=52

      The rates proceeded to drop like a rock, so they either paid it back fast or got caught with a hell of a spread.

    9. Re:Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      As the other commenter and I just discovered, the interest rate was nearly 6%, and that's for a loan directly to a bank (i.e. the bulk discount). It might shave a bit off a mortgage, but it's not going to fix a deal in which you paid far too much for your house.

    10. Re:Did they pay it back? by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      The 16 trillion figure is on page 131, table 8, bottom right:

      In short, it's a pretty absurdly inflated number. Loaning 10 billion for 1 day, and doing it for 30 days, is counted as 300 billion of loans, rather than a 10 billion 30-day loan.

      Further, this is pretty much regular operations of the Fed as part of their work in stabilizing the economy through monetary policy. It's what they were made to do.

      "Table 8 aggregates total dollar transaction amounts by adding the total dollar amount of all loans but does not adjust these amounts to reflect differences across programs in the term over which loans were outstanding. For example, an overnight PDCF loan of $10 billion that was renewed daily at the same level for 30
      business days would result in an aggregate amount borrowed of $300 billion although the institution, in effect, borrowed only $10 billion over 30... In contrast, a TAF loan of $10 billion extended over a 1-month period would appear as $10 billion. As a result, the total transaction amounts shown in table 8 for PDCF are not directly comparable to the total transaction amounts shown for TAF and other programs that made loans for periods longer than overnight"

      The loans were all paid back, with interest, within an extremely short period of time. The interest rates were low of course, because all banks lend at rates on top of how much the fed charged them. When the Fed wants banks to lend out money at low interest rates so that entrepeneurs and businesses take loans to grow their business and the economy, the Fed lowers the interest rate it loans to banks. When the Fed wants banks to stop lending b/c the economy is "overheating" and forming market bubbles, the fed increases the interest rate.

      So there's basically nothing "secret" about these loans. I've known about these loans since I was in /highschool/ because this is just the textbook definition of how the Fed implements monetary policy. Notice how nobody's bringing this up as front-page news anywhere else? It's just 1 old man's blog (even if he's a senator). It's because when someone took the time to actually read into that 16 trillion figure, they realized that there's no news to be found here.

    11. Re:Did they pay it back? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Because no one can repay the next morning? These are overnight loans for the banks when they are short on real money that is being lent against. Otherwise the bank has to stop giving mortgages and other loans. This is a good thing that is being over dramatized. and we pulled a tidy profit of 40 billion off the REPAID loans.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    12. Re:Did they pay it back? by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 1

      Except we're not talking about the "bailout loans" on which the US government supposedly is $40B ahead. We're talking about $16T that was created out of thin air by the financial consortium that owns and operates the Federal Reserve (not the U.S. government), which they proceeded to shower upon themselves as a "loan." Nobody reading slashdot has a grasp of how much money that is. Not you, not me, nobody here. It is a truly vast sum. A potentially world-transforming sum. Every politician on the planet could be bought for years on end with but a few single-digit percentage points of that sum.

      Be afraid, you stupid fuck. Be very afraid.

    13. Re:Did they pay it back? by Roachie · · Score: 1

      Yea gold has been money since time immemorial.

      Stupid people, why go for all that messy mining, refining, minting when money can be made of paper?

      Come to think of it why does anyone have to work at all, why dont we just create money? I mean heck -its just little pieces of paper. I mean sure it costs money to print money but thats ok because you are making money, more money more rich.

      Nobody has to be poor! We can all just spend the free money. We'll all be rich!

      I'll take my Noble Prize now.

      --
      This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
    14. Re:Did they pay it back? by nickmalthus · · Score: 1

      Did they pay it back?

      Yes, with money borrowed from the treasury.

      All of which is to say that these banks repaid cash owed to a program run by the Treasury Department by. . . borrowing from another program run by the Treasury Department.

      Classic pyramid scheme. Perhaps that is why an unfinished pyramid is on our money.

      --
      If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
    15. Re:Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Bernie Sanders seems an OK guy, but he seems to be on the Kucinich/Ron Paul conspiracy theory train. As far as I can tell, this "audit" turned up exactly the zilch expected.

    16. Re:Did they pay it back? by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      buy actual real gold.

      What for?

    17. Re:Did they pay it back? by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      If I had a bunch of gold to sell, I'd be telling people to buy it too!!

      --
      +1 Disagree
    18. Re:Did they pay it back? by Un+pobre+guey · · Score: 1

      We can all just spend the free money. We'll all be rich!

      Ben Bernanke, is that you?

    19. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is: from where did they get money, they borrowed so happily? Out of thin air?

    20. Re:Did they pay it back? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      That book is crap. People: Do not read. Unless you like a long string of logical fallacies and out of context 'views'.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    21. Re:Did they pay it back? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      More like your classic not understanding finance.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    22. Re:Did they pay it back? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Some people were just screwed, others were fine at their initial interest rate and payments, but were expecting to be able to refinance before their payments ballooned (because that's the horrible advice they received from the people who got the bailouts). It stands to reason that that significant segment could have been helped a lot by a refinance bailout that allowed them to continue paying what they could afford.

      I see no reason why they would need the loans to be free, they were never expecting that.

    23. Re:Did they pay it back? by Ocker3 · · Score: 1

      #4 Was it legal?

    24. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +1

    25. Re:Did they pay it back? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      No, the questions are:
      Were these banks bankrupt?: YES
      Did the federal government suspend federal law (mark to market rules) to allow them to keep operating despite being bankrupt?: YES
      Despite the bailout are Mark to Market rules still in suspension?: YES
      More importantly, are these banks still literally bankrupt? YES

      These banks, the same banks that lead to the financial crisis, owe more money than they have assets to cover. To this very day, their primary source of collateral is still the very same mortgage backed derivatives that landed them in the mess in the first place.

      The best thing that could happen in this entire mess would be to allow these banks to go under, like they should have in the first place and allow the market to correct naturally. How many empty, foreclosed homes are in your neighborhood? Why do you think the banks aren't selling them? Because they are not forced by federal law to mark them on their balance sheets at their true value. All the houses around you are selling for $200k but that foreclosed house is sitting on a banks balance sheet being valued at $300k so the bank can claim it's solvent.

    26. Re:Did they pay it back? by dkf · · Score: 1

      Did the federal government suspend federal law (mark to market rules) to allow them to keep operating despite being bankrupt?: YES

      The problem with Mark To Market rules being that they only work well when you're not in a crisis. In a crisis, especially a large one, there's a drop in M2M valuations which causes the amount of capital that the banks have available to technically drop. That means that they have to raise more capital (through borrowing or trading) yet they have simultaneously worsened credit ratings and fewer opportunities to make profits. You get a vicious circle and the excrement truly hits the ventilator. The easiest, quickest way out of that hole is to temporarily suspend M2M rules until valuations stop freefalling and everyone can work out just how deeply in the shit they really are; then you can M2M again, as you're not in the catastrophic failure state any more.

      There's very little wrong with M2M rules: the only real issue is that they assume that markets are sane, represent true value and don't tend to hit major correlated behavior. But we know that markets (and traders) aren't truly sane and logical, especially over short periods of time, and we also know that in a crash it all goes south at once. We know these facts from history, from observational studies, and from agent-based modeling. The Efficient Market hypothesis (the fundamental basis for the Rightness of the M2M rule) is a major simplification of a much more messy reality.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    27. Re:Did they pay it back? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Mark to market rules work, when banks have real assets and not complex derivatives designed to maximize profits. Had the banks been allowed to go under, these derivatives would no longer exist because no one would trust them as collateral on a loan. But since they are apparently backed by the federal reserve now (unlike the dollar) the banks will continue trading them as if they were immune to market fluctuations (unlike the dollar.)

      What you effectively have is the Federal reserve protecting the non-monetary assets of large banks by devaluing the currency. The currency is where most of the poor and middle class have their investments. This is literally stealing from the poor to give to the rich. These banks were bankrupt. Period. Then the fed devalued every cent we own, and gave it to the banks to keep them afloat. Are we better off? Inflation is at 9% right now... think about that... in 5 years your paycheck will be cut in half. Oh wait, we're using the Feds new magic inflation that forever stays at 0%. I forgot.

    28. Re:Did they pay it back? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      So we all heard we would be suffering hyperinflation back in Early 2009 when it finally came into law. LOOK OUT!!!

      Well, it is now 2011. Where is this hyperinflation you speak? I do not see runs on the bank. I do not see the cost of goods going up by the hour like in Weinmar Germany. I do not see riots.

      I am becoming a more liberal keyesian economic supporter if anything. Basically in a *normal* economy if the fed did something stupid like this then yes we would have massive hyperinflation, rising costs by the day, riots, and currency being worth nothing next to nothing as you can't buy squat with it. The fact that is it not happening at all shows us that your classical economists ...cough ... austrian...Paul Ryan ... viewpoints are discredited. What is scary for me is they are becoming more mainstream again with the cult of Fox News and Goldline.

      Basically Keyesian economics states that demand side, rather than Reagan supply side creates jobs and more goods and services. This whole recession was started because the private sector distorted the free market by deregulation of financial services and loans mixed with the gamblers on Wall Street. The prospensity to consume is hugely influential in consumers behaviors more than cheap prices. If people are scared to spend they will save. Too many universities only teach the conservative classical view of economics where prices and supply always correct each other that complete ignore demand and other factors.

      The US and world had a depression in 1873 as well when gold was the standard. It was not as bad as the Great Depression but it was servre and lasted for 7 years. 1812 may have been another one, but we lack economic data at the time to make it a conclusion. Gold would work if we all used it for currency and nothing else but we still trade it without another for purchases.

    29. Re:Did they pay it back? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      You're not concerned that the government boards issuing these TRILLIONS in loans are in many cases the same people benefiting?

      You're not concerned that the gov't can lend out $16 trillion without Congress or the President knowing/signing off?

      Seriously?

      --
      -Styopa
    30. Re:Did they pay it back? by evought · · Score: 1

      OK, so they loaned out a truly epic amount of money.

      Not just an "epic" amount but a destabilizing amount. Privileged insiders having access to gobs of money--- even as a loan--- can allow one to destroy competitors, manipulate markets, and control commodities. It's not really about the money; it's about power and corruption.

    31. Re:Did they pay it back? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      You're kidding, right? It's because they aren't members of the right club.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    32. Re:Did they pay it back? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      It also all these irritating numbers after sentences and is a ripoff because a bunch of pages in the back just list other things to read with page numbers and some kind of other garbage.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    33. Re:Did they pay it back? by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      I thought the Keynesians were predicting that with the stimulus we wouldn't see more than 8.5% unemployment? Weren't the Keynesians through the 2000s saying that housing was a good deal and everyone should get a house? Didn't the Austrians predict throughout the 2000s that the enormous bubble in housing, caused by Government intrusion into the marketplace, would bring down the entire U.S. economy?

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    34. Re:Did they pay it back? by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      "I thought the Keynesians were predicting that with the stimulus we wouldn't see more than 8.5% unemployment?">

      The economy and GDP contracted more in the last 3 months of 2008 and into 2009 than in the half of the 1930's. Household wealth vanished by 15% in just 90 days! We would be at 30% unemployment by now if we did nothing and yes he saved 8 million or more jobs at least.

      "Weren't the Keynesians through the 2000s saying that housing was a good deal and everyone should get a house? " No. Cite a source? That was made up by FoxNews but the vast majority of the foreclosed homes were not given to under class minority Americans. The foreclosed homes were because the bank promised some families that the mortgage would never go above x amount, and 2 years later it went up 2x because they were not fixed rate. That was fraud. The lack of background checking was another reason.

      "Didn't the Austrians predict throughout the 2000s that the enormous bubble in housing, caused by Government intrusion into the marketplace, would bring down the entire U.S. economy?
      --"

      Wrong. They did predict that the amount of debt was problematic and many keynesians noticed that the savings rate was dangerously low and that was bad. Nowhere is there evidence regulation caused the crash.

      Evidence support deregulation as the cause. If we kept glass-steagull the banks would not be flipping these toxic loans to wall street who gambled and played them like a game of hot potato until the one holding them lost all the money when it crashed. We need more regulation and the market can readjust. The sole reason the banks were handing out loans like candy is because it was not there problem if they foreclosed. That is Wall Streets problem. Wall Street also had insurance agains't losses from AIG that made it even more messy and encouraged more reckless behavior.

    35. Re:Did they pay it back? by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Did the banks just borrow again to repay and keep it going?

    36. Re:Did they pay it back? by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      I've been buying apples for 78 cents a pound for years now.

    37. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer the save money when times are good so you have money when times are bad approach. I don't know why people don't do this anymore. This way you get money from interest rather than paying money into interest.

    38. Re:Did they pay it back? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Come on. We're talking about Austrian economy. It's famous in that it doesn't make predictions.

      Predictions are not important, after all. It's the explanation why we must use gold and transfer money to rich people that is important.

    39. Re:Did they pay it back? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Fed Reserve overnight window interest rate is currently around 0%.

      Did they pay taxes? Not nearly what they should have.

    40. Re:Did they pay it back? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      I thought the Keynesians were predicting that with the stimulus we wouldn't see more than 8.5% unemployment?

      Which Keynesians? I know Paul Krugman was predicting that we would see continued high unemployment for an extended period of time, with a significant potential for a second recession before employment significantly recovered, without a much more massive stimulus than Obama and Congress finally provided.

      Weren't the Keynesians through the 2000s saying that housing was a good deal and everyone should get a house?

      No, Randian Objectivists like Alan Greenspan were saying that. (Well, Greenspan specifically was, I don't actually recall anyone else taken seriously in economic matters saying it -- of course, people selling houses and selling mortgages and otherwise in the financial sector were saying it, but that's based on self-interest, not economic theory.)

      Didn't the Austrians predict throughout the 2000s that the enormous bubble in housing, caused by Government intrusion into the marketplace, would bring down the entire U.S. economy?

      If any Austrians that made that prediction, the only difference between them and many leading Keynesians (e.g., Krugman) and plenty of others who are market analysts but not economists of any broader stripe was after the "caused by..." part. The housing bubble was fairly widely recognized long before it burst.

    41. Re:Did they pay it back? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      The people who think our economy is going to collapse should not be buying gold, but should instead "invest" in firearms, ammo, gun powder, primers, bulk lead, and casting equipment. Until I see lots of people starting to do this consistently, not like the nut jobs did when Obama was elected, I am not going to worry too much. The simple fact is that there isn't enough gold to go around to run an economy the size of ours. So if things get bad what am I going to want a pile of soft dense yellow metal or something that is useful like mason jars of food, firearms, tools. I guess I could cast some gold bullets, but other than that it isn't something that people need when things go to hell.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    42. Re:Did they pay it back? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      If he was really worried then he should buy firearms, mason jars, ammo, hand tools and then learn how to use them. In the worst case scenario that the gold bugs love to imagine gold is actually pretty worthless as in that society you can't really do anything with it. You can't eat it, you could make some things out of it but they would mostly be decorative as it isn't strong enough to be of use in a world without electricity, about the only thing it would be good for is casting into bullets as it is even denser than lead.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    43. Re:Did they pay it back? by orngjce223 · · Score: 1

      This "hyperinflation" you speak of is alive, in all its quadruple-digit glory, in the academic textbooks market.

      --
      Note: I was 13 when I wrote most of this. Take with several grains of salt.
    44. Re:Did they pay it back? by ZeeStorm · · Score: 1

      With the Fiat majority takeover of Chrysler, U.S. Treasury said we will probably not get our $1.3b back (let alone interest). So there's 1 loan out of the $16t loans that never came back. Which is sort of sad, we should be collecting on that money regardless. Bailout loans aren't grants.

    45. Re:Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Different pot of money. And different goal: when the alternative was throwing a lot of workers out on the street all at once in the middle of a recession, the government was happy to spend a billion to keep those jobs.

      Whether it is financially profitable in the long run is a different question, and it may simply delay the pain to another day. But it's not a case where ripping off the bandage all at once hurts less; confounding factors make it hurt more.

    46. Re:Did they pay it back? by ZeeStorm · · Score: 1

      Not saying at once, they had plans to pay it off over time -- why not keep those plans in place? That's like saying I don't have to pay off my house or car loan because they've been transferred to other banks now. Wish I didn't have to.. I wasn't disagreeing with them bailing them out, I just think since the company has "recovered" (they did say they are in the green/black, whatever you want to call it), that they should now start paying back what they took.

    47. Re:Did they pay it back? by jfengel · · Score: 1

      According to a recently-published article, the actual loans were repaid. But more money was spent on it in a different form: money given in exchange for stock. That stock was finally sold at a net loss of $1.3B.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/us-concludes-chrysler-rescue-with-sale-to-fiat/2011/07/21/gIQAzPDZSI_story.html

      In theory, they could have continued to negotiate with Fiat to raise the price, but that would almost certainly have queered the deal. Alternatively, they could try to take the money out of the UAW's share, but that would just move the obligation to the Pension Benefit Guaranty, a different arm of the government. By ensuring pension benefits (a deal dating back to 1974), they effectively became on the hook for losses.

      In theory that should have forced them to ensure that Chrysler was better managed, or at least raised the insurance rates; insurance always means moral hazard. In this case, the moral hazard tripped them up, and they effectively are simply realizing a loss that was incurred a long time ago.

    48. Re:Did they pay it back? by ZeeStorm · · Score: 1

      That makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the link and explanation.

  12. 16 friggin trillion? by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    I Betcha' that's just the tip of the iceberg.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:16 friggin trillion? by stubob · · Score: 1

      Right, the real amount will be eleventy bajillion zillion dollars.

      --
      Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
    2. Re:16 friggin trillion? by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      A) There was nothing secret about these loans; in fact, making these loans is the primary purpose of the Federal Reserve
      B) The way this number is calculated, the average amount loaned out at any given time would have been less than $50 billion
      C) This is effectively a press release from the Senator from Vermont saying what a good job he did (It appears he's up for reelection soon).

  13. Meanwhile... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Soviet Russia secret loans audit you, top-to-bottom.

  14. How Much is a Trillion? by Grizzley9 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I thought this site explains what a trillion dollars is fairly well.

    www.wtfnoway.com

    1. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Jeng · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Here is what a Trillion looks like.

      http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    2. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Grizzley9 · · Score: 1

      Here is what a Trillion looks like.

      http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

      You didn't even look at my link did you? It's roughly the same thing except yours has worse graphics and not as much in comparison.

    3. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Jeng · · Score: 1

      Thought he was asking a question, didn't even bother looking at the link since it looked to be a sig.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    4. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Thyrsus · · Score: 1

      Nope. This is what a trillion dollars looks like: $1000000000000.00

      This kind of money only exists in financial institution computers, it never gets moved around on pallets. The most that was ever moved around that way was the billion or so that got "misplaced" in Iraq.

    5. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or to put it another way, a trillion dollars is your typical Wal-Mart packed full of pallets of $100 bills stacked 4-6 high.

    6. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by Grizzley9 · · Score: 1

      Way to miss the point of relating it to things people can grasp.

    7. Re:How Much is a Trillion? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I find it helps to imagine the money in terms of data storage.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  15. Not that you would stop spreading disinformation.. by PaulBu · · Score: 2

    But Ron Paul does not advocate return to pure gold standard, he advocates allowing competing currencies, some backed by gold, other by silver, third by "trust in US Government", and letting people/markets decide which one do they prefer.

    And, as others have said, US was technically on the gold standard until 70s, this is how dollar became reserve currency of the world...

    Paul B.

  16. This is more money than the Federal Public Debt by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 2

    The Fed and the Treasury keep swearing that they're not going to monetize the debt. But my goodness, this amount of money is greater than what we owe. For that matter, it's greater than our GDP. This is why we should all laugh when they say they won't be monetizing the debt, try to prepare for heavy inflation, and vote for someone who has a record of not being a mere R or D. The Fed supplied status quo, built on endless wars and unsustainable entitlement programs, will end because it will destroy our currency.

  17. ok by geekoid · · Score: 5, Informative

    A) These are loans, almost all of which get paid back.
    B) this is not a secret. Just because something goes on you didn't know about, doesn't mean it was a secret. It just means you where ignorant.
    C) This benefits the US. The US MADE money from this.

    I just had to get that out there, I know it wont stop the frothing lunatics.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:ok by Tr3vin · · Score: 2

      But... But... Ron Paul says...

    2. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have not been keeping up with the Federal Reserve! It is historically unprecedented that the Fed has been audited in the past year. The chairman going to press conferences is also unique to this century. There are a couple Congressmen who fought nearly their entire lengths in office for a less secretive Federal Reserve, for "Audit the Fed" bills. They appear to no longer need to fight. More specifically, these loans during the crisis were completely a secret until the Fed released a massive report about four months ago? which has been making headlines periodically, especially as it is more clearly understood. So regarding ignorance you speak of.....the Fed has been an extremely secretive organization until *very* recently.

      About the US benefiting, its not entirely clear if in the grand scheme of things we 'made' money from all loans foreign and domestic. Consider the recent headlines on Chrysler putting the government at a massive loss. Regardless, you should be alarmed when your taxes are being used in loans to Swiss credit institutions and fishing villages in the middle of nowhere.

    3. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      RE: C) If I take your money and make a loan with it, is it OK if I made money for you? What about exposing you to a risk without your consent?

    4. Re:ok by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Informative

      US lost money on this and it will lose money going forward on these very bail outs again.

      1. Moral hazard was created - now everybody knows they will be bailed out again. Everybody can gamble, government made sure of it. You loan money to these major banks, you can't lose. The government won't let you. All managers at the banks know, they can take any crazy risks, the government will bail them out.

      2. The bail outs are causing massive price hikes, the money printing is inflation and inflation causes prices to go up. You are saying: the loans are paid back. How does any of it help the consumers, who have to pay higher prices?

      3. The bail outs money printing and borrowing increased the total debt of USA. This is money that needs to be paid back with interest.

      4. The same companies that were bailed out before will inevitably fail again. Except that the bail outs made sure that the currency also will be destroyed, as that's how government 'bails' out, by printing and borrowing.

      5. The economy is not growing, it's shrinking, the bail outs just worsen the inflation and capital flight, and thus worsen the economy.

      6. In reality the money wasn't even repaid. This is the MOST IMPORTANT POINT. The Fed did NOT UNWIND THE TRADES.

      The so called repayment is no such thing. Let the Fed show the actual money, because the moment they try to sell the assets that they own from those banks they will find out their actual worth, and it's nowhere near what they tell you, there is no repayment.

      Also, don't forget that they are creating about 10% inflation annually, so anything you can even count as 'repayment' is already 10% below what it was last year, you have to repay with extra 10% just to be at 0.

      GM will be bankrupt again of-course as well.

    5. Re:ok by inKubus · · Score: 2

      The so called repayment is no such thing. Let the Fed show the actual money, because the moment they try to sell the assets that they own from those banks they will find out their actual worth, and it's nowhere near what they tell you, there is no repayment.

      Uh, the Fed prints money. They can show whatever they want. The Fed responded to a massive deleveraging (leveraging is when money is spent multiple times). In the U.S. economy, we rely on money being spent around 8 times at once. It's hard to envision but there's a sort of chain reaction effect when money is spent and economists call this the money multiplier. What happened was the housing market was over-represented in the leveraging and when it tanked it took a major multiple of itself out of play. What the Fed did was re-leverage all of that itself by basically printing up a portion of the lost multiplied leverage and just giving it to some big companies. They in turn, spent it and the regular money multiplier took effect enough to lift the credit markets from a standstill. It wasn't fair, no, but we are all better off today that we would be.

      Where we stand right now is that the private capital leverage is starting to pick back up again as banks loan money. As that happens, people are going to be willing to take on risk and at that point the Fed will unload the stuff it bought for cash it printed, thus getting that cash back. The Fed can then just burn the money or basically buy back debt from china or something. The beauty is that we make the rules and the rules call for, above all, certainty of value, even if that value is dropping at a certain rate (e.g. inflation). What they did was brilliant, actually made the taxpayers money and, although we will have to suffer some inflation (and it's coming), the vast majority of prices were already inflated due to the over-leveraging (which functions as monetary inflation does on prices), so food isn't going to shoot up and if you're well placed in the market now you will see some very nice gains over the coming decade. Plus, baby boomers are going to go from saving to spending mode starting in 2016 which will just add some more bull market momentum. Assuming we don't overheat again, we are primed for a good 10-15 years of steady growth, and they can keep us from overheating by doing some taxes, or raising rates or a combination of both. I have a feeling it'll be taxes first, so we can buy back those treasuries.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    6. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to the local library and borrow a macroeconomics text book, and FOOL’S GOLD By Gillian Tett.
      Some of your facts aren't quite accurate.

      1. Moral hazard was created - now everybody knows they will be bailed out again. Everybody can gamble, government made sure of it. You loan money to these major banks, you can't lose. The government won't let you. All managers at the banks know, they can take any crazy risks, the government will bail them out.

      Wrong. The Fed bailed out the first few companies then realised the problem was too big. Their rationale was not just 'too big to fail' it was 'too interconnected to fail without taking the system down'. AIG and Lehman Brothers are not around today because the Fed drew the line, changed their policy and decided not to bail them out. The Greek crisis is the current incarnation of this debate - and while they are being bailed out, it is nothing like the first-round of US bailouts.

      2. The bail outs are causing massive price hikes, the money printing is inflation and inflation causes prices to go up. You are saying: the loans are paid back. How does any of it help the consumers, who have to pay higher prices?

      Printing money causes inflation, and inflation means prices goes up - yes. But inflation means nominal prices go up, not real prices. Inflation means you value $1 less, and then ask for more wages. Inflation only hurts domestic citizens because it costs you more to buy foreign goods (because your inflated dollar buys less yen), and banks ask for higher interest to factor inflation into lending.

      3. The bail outs money printing and borrowing increased the total debt of USA. This is money that needs to be paid back with interest.

      Yes, but the sneaky thing is that the same amount of debt is worth less.Say you owe China 1 trillion USD. Today, that buys a lot ... say half a trillion loaves of bread. Now, if you print enough money that a loaf of bread is worth 1 trillion dollars... and because the US citizins know that 1 trillion dollars is now worth what $2 used to be, they ask for their pay to be increased by 500 billion times... and your employer will give it to you because their products are selling for 500 billion times what they used to... Now, you can easily settle that debt with interest by paying China two loaves of bread - worth 2 trillion dollars.

      4. The same companies that were bailed out before will inevitably fail again. Except that the bail outs made sure that the currency also will be destroyed, as that's how government 'bails' out, by printing and borrowing.

      Nah, we will fix the problems of today with regulation. But someone will find the way around that regulation with good intentions. Someone else will find a way to exploit that for profit. It will bubble, the bubble will burst. The problem is that the economy is becomming more interlinked, more interconnected and more global.
      Before the bubbles were so big, the self-correction technique was to let them burst, let people loose money (and in civilised countries unlike america you support their basic standards of living with a social safety net) and let them re-skill to now-relevent terms. The horse and cart industry today is nothing like what it used to be, and when cars were invented lots of coach manufacturers lost their livelyhood.... the problem is now that when it fails, everyone looses their livelyhood at the same time - and no country has had the balls to see what happens if you just let the failure take its course.

      Interesting side note about why they don't have the balls .... the traditional way that people react (it still happens today in banana republics) is to violently overthrow their government and the system that let them down.

      5. The economy is not growing, it's shrinking, the bail outs just worsen the inflation and capital flight, and thus worsen the economy.

      Spot on.

      6. In reality the money wasn't even repaid. This is the MOST IMPORTANT POINT. The Fed did NOT UNWIND THE TRADES.

      I'll take your word for it.

    7. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did the U S make the money or did the Federal Reserve
      make the money?

    8. Re:ok by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

      > C) This benefits the US. The US MADE money from this.

      The US made less than one percent. When you get less back on a loan than the rate of inflation, it is losing money. When you are the investor of last resort in a failing business, you are supposed to get much more than the going rate, not less.

      I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do for external reasons, but to claim it was a sound investment in direct ROI is false.

    9. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And please do what you can to accelerate GM's failure. The money they still owe us... we're never really going to see that. Better to write it off now and let the remaining assets (tooling, facilities, etc) be liquidated and hopefully snapped up by someone with a good idea on how to use them.

      When buying a new vehicle, the right choice is Ford or Foreign.

    10. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hypocrite alert! Roman_mir lives in a socialist county with some of the best safety nets in the world but likes to armchair quarterback the US and how we should not try to achieve the same

    11. Re:ok by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 1

      I think you're confusing the federal reserve bank and the federal government. "The fed" is no more related to the federal government than federal express. When "the fed" makes money, the U.S. does not somehow also make money. That would be like saying that I make money when my bank makes money off a loan.

    12. Re:ok by chaboud · · Score: 1

      The Fed made a profit of $82 billion in 2010 and transferred $79 billion the the U.S. Treasury as a result.

      Slashdotters need to read more or STFU about finance.

    13. Re:ok by ticktickboom · · Score: 0

      never in the history of mankind did anyone ever, or any govt make money on a loan, unless the interest was paid to them.
      your saying that hte govt somehow made money by making a loan, repaying it, and repaying the interest. please tell me how this worked.

      remember, the central bank called teh federal reserve is NOT govt. its a private bank. just like bank of america or federal express.

    14. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      C) Do you really think this is "make money" when a printing press was used to create the loan money in the first place?

    15. Re:ok by martas · · Score: 1

      I don't think the loans are the main problem here, it's the blatant conflicts of interest. That doesn't have you the least bit worried?

  18. Senator Sander, you know better. by panda · · Score: 3, Informative

    "No agency of the United States government should be allowed to bailout a foreign bank or corporation without the direct approval of Congress and the president," Sanders said.

    Since when is the Federal Reserve an agency of the United States government? Last time that I checked it was and still is a privately owned corporation.

    --
    Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
    1. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Congress controls the federal reserve. Yes, banks sit on it's board.

      Bureaus would be closer then agency.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Bartles · · Score: 1

      Since the Federal Reserve Act created it. It's an Independent Governmental Agency. If it's privately owned, who owns it, and where can I go to short sell shares?

    3. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Federal Reserve Board is most certainly a government agency. All Board members are appointed by the President and approved by the Senate. The Federal Reserve Banks are private, but all of this lending came from Board authority and Reserve Banks had no vote.

      And, Mr. Sanders, Congress did provide direct approval when it granted the Fed this authority under Section 13 of the Federal Reserve Act. The Act explicitly grants the Board this authority and does not require it to seek additional approval from Congress.

    4. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was created by an Act of Congress, and as such it is subject to Congressional oversight. It does not have plenary powers such as Congress or the President both of which are authorized by the Constitution of the United States. Therefore, while independent of Presidential authority and not an "agency" or part of the bureaucracy, it is still governed by laws and overseen by Congressional committee.

    5. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, it is effectively an agency of the US government, in that it provides a particular service for the US government. It may technically be a privately owned corporation, but that's nothing more than a technicality.

    6. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by mybecq · · Score: 4, Informative

      Since when is the Federal Reserve an agency of the United States government?

      Since December 23, 1913:

      The Federal Reserve, like many other central banks, is an independent government agency

    7. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Lando · · Score: 2

      Federal reserve is a part of the government. I believe it's a common misconception that it isn't a part of the government because it's an independent agency and word of mouth isn't that hot about specifics. I had the understanding that it wasn't a part of the government until I took an economics class where the instructor mentioned that it was and I did a little digging.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System

      --
      /* TODO: Spawn child process, interest child in technology, have child write a new sig */
    8. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      Sanders does know better. The power was relegated legally by a corrupt congress a century ago to create an agency run by the banks. Its effectively theirs and not the people's but technically it was created by the government; only a tad from the corporation which is defined by government under even weaker rules. Its the splitting of the details which makes a corporation private and a similar institution run by private interests an agency. Some people think the fed belongs on the corporation side and others think it is an agency; how one thinks of it can greatly impact their attitudes towards it.

    9. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Federal Reserve in D.C. is. The Federal Reserve BANKS are not.

    10. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is independent for a reason, probably so weasely senators can't screw it up.

    11. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by MoldySpore · · Score: 1

      The Federal Reserve is only "Federal" by name. It is about as "Federal" as "Federal Express". The Federal Reserve is a private bank. It loans all money to the American government with interest attached to each dollar, just like a real bank.

      --

      "I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."

    12. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 2

      Congress controls the Federal Reserve only if it passes acts to amend the Federal Reserve Act (and the acts that amend that act). They cannot subpoena nor otherwise influence the Fed.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    13. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      How is it the most uninformative posts in this whole discussion are (Score:5, Informative)? mybecq is Spewing random bullshit. Fuck that PR crap on the friendly pages, dig down to the real info and you find that every Federal Reserve is a corporation and its shares are owned by member banks. Who do you think they are scared of, the special interest bought and paid for Congress or the shareholders? Here, right out of the act, is how to buy shares of a Federal Reserve Bank:

      Section 5. Stock Issues; Increase and Decrease of Capital

      1. Amount of Shares; Increase and Decrease of Capital; Surrender and Cancellation of Stock

      The capital stock of each Federal reserve bank shall be divided into shares of $100 each. The outstanding capital stock shall be increased from time to time as member banks increase their capital stock and surplus or as additional banks become members, and may be decreased as member banks reduce their capital stock or surplus or cease to be members. Shares of the capital stock of Federal reserve banks owned by member banks shall not be transferred or hypothecated. When a member bank increases its capital stock or surplus, it shall thereupon subscribe for an additional amount of capital stock of the Federal reserve bank of its district equal to 6 per centum of the said increase, one-half of said subscription to be paid in the manner hereinbefore provided for original subscription, and one-half subject to call of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. A bank applying for stock in a Federal reserve bank at any time after the organization thereof must subscribe for an amount of the capital stock of the Federal reserve bank equal to 6 per centum of the paid-up capital stock and surplus of said applicant bank, paying therefor its par value plus one-half of 1 per centum a month from the period of the last dividend. When a member bank reduces its capital stock or surplus it shall surrender a proportionate amount of its holdings in the capital stock of said Federal Reserve bank. Any member bank which holds capital stock of a Federal Reserve bank in excess of the amount required on the basis of 6 per centum of its paid-up capital stock and surplus shall surrender such excess stock. When a member bank voluntarily liquidates it shall surrender all of its holdings of the capital stock of said Federal Reserve bank and be released from its stock subscription not previously called. In any such case the shares surrendered shall be canceled and the member bank shall receive in payment therefor, under regulations to be prescribed by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, a sum equal to its cash-paid subscriptions on the shares surrendered and one-half of 1 per centum a month from the period of the last dividend, not to exceed the book value thereof, less any liability of such member bank to the Federal Reserve bank.

      [12 USC 287. As amended by act of Aug. 23, 1935 (49 Stat. 713).]

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    14. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Zaphod+The+42nd · · Score: 1

      "However, its authority is derived from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight. Additionally, the members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the President and confirmed by Congress. The government also exercises some control over the Federal Reserve by appointing and setting the salaries of the system's highest-level employees. Thus the Federal Reserve has both private and public aspects." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System Wikipedia isn't always accurate, but you can go argue with the citations if you disagree.

      --
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    15. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

      And since the Fed is the sole currency provider, the interest is an amount in excess of the total amount of currency in circulation, so it can only be paid off with natural resources, imported assets, and labor. In time the Fed will own everything and everyone will be helplessly in debt. This is a recipe for slavery and it's built right into the US monetary system.

      --

      War as we knew it was obsolete
      Nothing could beat complete denial
      - Emily Haines
    16. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Danathar · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between the Federal Reserve Board in Washington D.C. and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Banks are privately owned government sanctioned. The Federal Reserve Board of Governors IS a government agency.

    17. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Danathar · · Score: 1

      No. The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in D.C. is a Federal Agency. The individual Federal Reserve Banks are private and government sanctioned. The board of governors in D.C. direct the banks (or delegate control back to the banks).

    18. Re:Senator Sander, you know better. by Lando · · Score: 1

      I'm a bit lost by your statement. What am I misunderstanding?

      --
      /* TODO: Spawn child process, interest child in technology, have child write a new sig */
  19. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 5, Informative

    But Ron Paul does not advocate return to pure gold standard, he advocates allowing competing currencies, some backed by gold, other by silver, third by "trust in US Government", and letting people/markets decide which one do they prefer.

    Because multiple competing currencies worked so great during the Articles of Confederation days, right? Oh wait, it was an abysmal failure.

  20. This is Why by gubers33 · · Score: 2

    No one from any banks or investment firms should be allowed to serve on any government boards. The corruption is absolutely absurd, they have the interests of the companies they are boards on not of the people. Like what this country was founded on a government of the people, by the people and for the people. But this country has become ruled by the corporations and it just saddening.

    --
    Just because you are wrong and I called you out on it doesn't mean I am a Troll.
    1. Re:This is Why by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Before then it was owned by the privately wealthy and robber barons. This country was never "of the people, by the people and for the people". The USA is not unique in that either.

  21. Incorrect by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

    Lets say I have 5 dollars.

    I lend you 5 dollars, the next day you pay me back 5 dollars and 5 cents.
    The I lend that 5 dollars to someone else and they paid me backs 5 dollars an 5 cents.

    I lent out 10 dollars during those 2 days, but I never lent more then I had. And I ended with 10 cent more then I started.

    Get it?

    Listening to most slashdotters talk about finance is like listening to accounts talk about a computer. simple painful.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Incorrect by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 2

      I'll certainly agree with your point (the first point, not the bit which seems to impugn the knowledge of a large and diverse group of people), and I thank you for it, but it is beside my point.

      I apologise if I was unclear about this, but pointing to the GDP and the national debt was meant as an illustration of the enormity of the Fed's activities. It was not meant to speak of whether or not, to borrow your phrase, we lent more than we had. Nor could it have been. GDP is not the amount of money we have--i.e. it isn't the five dollars in our collective pocket. I am quite certain that the people have more in assets than the 14.7 trillion in goods and services produced in a year (after all, were there not more in assets than in the value of goods and services produced, then we'd have a hard time accounting for the capital used to produce).

      My point is simply that the Fed acts on a scale that is quite capable of destroying our currency, that they will monetize the debt because neither major party will allow genuine spending cuts on entitlements or warfare (indeed they call these things "non-discretionary") but both will continue to argue over things like NPR, and that a wise man will do his best to ready himself for the coming inflation. As evidence of these claims, I submit to you the farce that is the debt ceiling debate. Boehner and McConnell have made it quite clear that they'll strike a deal, they just have to put on a show first. Ultimately the President will give in to some plan that "reduces the deficit" by calling for a reduction in projected increases (as Paul Ryan's joke of a plan did)--i.e. vaporware cuts. And they will do this because both the politician who doesn't save us from terrorists and tyrants by bombing Somalia, Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq and the politician who dares to suggest a hike in the eligibility age for certain entitlements will quickly become a failed politician. The only politically viable solution will be to allow the debt to be monetized, hide under inflation numbers that do not include basic items of consumption, and hope the storm passes.

    2. Re:Incorrect by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Whatever, shut up, BUY GOLD!!!

      /sarcasm

      --
      +1 Disagree
    3. Re:Incorrect by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " this amount of money is greater than what we owe [wikipedia.org]. "

      So you were very clear. You claimed they lent more money.
      You're post in no way touches on the point you spell out in your reply.

      How can you claim monetization when we don't have a constant interest rate rule? Every signal from the fed indicate they do not want to monetize the debt.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Incorrect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's even more painful is reading your posts. I can't figure out if you're stupid, or just ignorant, or maybe both, but your command of written English is simply terrible.

    5. Re:Incorrect by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see. Mea culpa. Apparently I was being quite lazy with my language and I should certainly know better.

      As for how I would claim monetization, I say this because of the risk of QE3. Nor is Bernanke the only one who favors a bit more easing (I cannot help but note the irony of the gas tank analogy in this article, given that gas is not counted in most inflation numbers). Certainly the Fed denies that it does not want to monetize debt in order to quell fears of inflation, but they are making a bad habit of using open market operations to solve political problems. As for interest rates, the first article above speaks of committing to several years of low interest rates (which, one might speculate means at the very least keeping them constant) or even lowering them.

      Above all, I would point back to the political argument. To cut spending either on war or on entitlements is anathema. To raise taxes is verboten. Even to go into deeper debt is, increasingly, politically dangerous (though I expect that option in the near future). Our political class faces impossible choices not unlike those faced in Europe. Like Europe, the only politically safe option may well be to monetize the debt. The Fed will come to the rescue of the political class and, in return, we can expect the political class to be ready to stimulate the banking class yet again.

  22. 1998: Long term capital management, $3.6B by vinn01 · · Score: 1

    Secret bailouts are not new, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management

    On the face of it, it appeared that private banks provided the bailout money, but many suspected that they were all backed by secret government loans.

    1. Re:1998: Long term capital management, $3.6B by vinn01 · · Score: 1

      Replying to my own post about the LTCM bailout, let me add ...

      "Some industry officials said that Federal Reserve Bank of New York involvement in the rescue, however benign, would encourage large financial institutions to assume more risk, in the belief that the Federal Reserve would intervene on their behalf in the event of trouble. "

  23. End the Fed, really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wonder if the MSM will retract all those statements it's made about people wanting to "end the fed" being crazy?

  24. Jefferson said it best.. by gtmoose · · Score: 2

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson It doesn't get anymore prophetic than that.

    1. Re:Jefferson said it best.. by MikeyC01 · · Score: 2

      "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -Thomas Jefferson It doesn't get anymore prophetic than that.

      I often see this quote (or something close to it) bandied about so I fired up the Interweb to research it. Snopes.com offers a different view of that purported Jefferson quote http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

      Among the highlights ...

      In addition to the lack of documentation, an entry in Respectfully Quoted: A Dictionary of Quotations labels this quotation as "obviously spurious" for contextual reasons, noting that the Oxford English Dictionary's (OED) earliest citation for the word "deflation" (as related to currency) dates only to 1920. (The OED's earliest citation for the word "inflation" used in a financial sense dates to 1838, which means that usage might have been known during Jefferson's lifetime.)

  25. Facts please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [Citation needed]

  26. Inflation v Deflation by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    Good point.

    Effectively, the problem is that given inflation, inventories earn more than they cost, so there is profit. In deflation, inventories cost more than they earn, so there is loss. *technically* that isn't exactly true--the value of the dollar is changing--but it certainly messes a lot of things up, like our whole national tax infrastructure.

    Deflation also makes it more expensive to borrow... unless you adjust for the time value of money in the borrowing, which frankly is more complex and probably more expensive (transaction costs are higher for more complexity).

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    1. Re:Inflation v Deflation by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If you desire to purchase a good, let's say a loaf of bread, do you factor in the rate of change of value in the currency? How about when you purchase a new phone? Of course not, because the change in value is insignificant to the price of the good. The supply chain works to support your needs as a consumer, so the argument that deflation affects production is false, especially when we begin to evaluate how markets behaved when there really was deflation.

      We did not leave the gold standard until the Federal Reserve Act of 1913. Before that we were on the gold standard, and from the ratifying of the Constitution to creation of the Federal Reserve we went from a third-world bankrupt nation to the largest manufacturer on the planet (1895). Clearly the small amount of deflation did not hamper investment in capital goods. In fact, it probably made the economy grow more quickly because investments were made more wisely.

      Most people are poor at making investment decisions, but inflation puts pressure on people to invest because they know that their savings will be worthless when they want to draw on it during retirement. With this pressure they are more likely to make higher risk investments. However, if they know that a penny earned now will be worth a penny after being saved, they become much more skeptical about investing, meaning that those seeking investors will have to have much more robust business plans to convince the investors to part with their money. With less malinvestment prices are more stable and the economy will grow more quickly.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    2. Re:Inflation v Deflation by dryeo · · Score: 1

      And here I thought it was Nixon who removed the gold standard as a bunch of countries were demanding America to honour its promise to pay the bearer on demand in the form of gold and America was running out of gold due to inflation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_Shock

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    3. Re:Inflation v Deflation by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      Nixon ended Bretton Woods, as stated in the first paragraph of the page you linked to.

      The Nixon Shock was a series of economic measures taken by U.S. President Richard Nixon in 1971 including unilaterally cancelling the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold that essentially ended the existing Bretton Woods system of international financial exchange.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  27. Gold by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

    We have 10% of the world's official gold reserve sitting in a basement in NY, 50 feet below sea level. It's just sitting there. (NY Fed.)

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    1. Re:Gold by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      How do we know that? There hasn't been an audit of the Federal Reserve gold in over 60 years. This audit they're doing now is nothing more than a joke for those who understand how the Fed works.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

    2. Re:Gold by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      How do we know that? There hasn't been an audit of the Federal Reserve gold in over 60 years. This audit they're doing now is nothing more than a joke for those who understand how the Fed works.

      Sure, they could be faking it. But I find it unlikely.

      First, it is gold belonging to a lot of different countries--I am sure if any country seriously believed there were a problem, it could examine--or even claim--its own gold.

      Second, I've been in the vault. It is pretty damn secure, and there was a lot of gold there when I visited.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    3. Re:Gold by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      For assets of this size it is standard to audit at least annually. There is no such thing as trust with dollar amounts this huge.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  28. It's called the discount window by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Informative
    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:It's called the discount window by nickmalthus · · Score: 2
      We knew the federal reserve corporation was lending money; we did not know the extent or exactly to who. Does this matter? From the article:

      "This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you're-on-your-own individualism for everyone else."

      "The non-partisan, investigative arm of Congress also determined that the Fed lacks a comprehensive system to deal with conflicts of interest, despite the serious potential for abuse. In fact, according to the report, the Fed provided conflict of interest waivers to employees and private contractors so they could keep investments in the same financial institutions and corporations that were given emergency loans."

      This is a real American corruption crisis of private individuals using government authority to pick market winners and losers.

      --
      If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
    2. Re:It's called the discount window by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The report specifically does not cover the discount window.

      "It did not grant us authority to review discount window
      loans made before enactment. Accordingly, this report does not cover the
      Federal Reserve System’s discount window lending during the recent
      financial crisis." pg '2' of the report. pg 15 of the pdf.

  29. Forty Carriers by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 4, Informative

    Got news for you, before WWII, our solders pointed broomsticks at cars ("tanks") and said, "eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh", to simulate firing an imaginary weapon. During WWI, gunners trained by using their finger and pointing at imaginary targets while spinning in a swivel chair. The US absolutely did NOT become a super power until after the close of WWII. And in large part, that was thanks to the Germans (including Nazis) absorbed by the US.

    At the Battle of Leyte Gulf, we had forty aircraft carriers: 8 fleet, 8 light, and 18 escort. Plus a dozen battleships and over a hundred fifty other ships.

    Forty fucking aircraft carriers.

    We were a super power--and the only nuclear power--before the end of World War 2.

    --
    -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    1. Re:Forty Carriers by locallyunscene · · Score: 1

      Super power is a new term, before WWII there were just world powers or (fading)Empires. The term super power came about due to the Cold War and the competing influences of the US and Russia across the economic(and real) battle grounds of the world.

      Between WW I and WW II the US occupied a similar position to where China stands now.

    2. Re:Forty Carriers by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      Forty fucking aircraft carriers.

      That's like owning a junk yard and bragging you own 100 cars. Bot all aircraft carriers are created equal. In fact, only a tiny handful are worth mentioning.

      You also missed the fact that back then, battleships were still considered the predominate projection of military prowess. Which is exactly why at the beginning of the war, our armed forces sucked ass. Its also why the dramatically inferior Sherman tank was our main battle tank. It sucked ass. Furthermore, its also why the German's employed US technology, with the US passed on, for their own, vastly superior and more maneuverable main battle tanks.

      In a nut shell, the US had a navy. At the beginning of the world, IIRC, it was ranked number three or four in the world. Traditionally, the British Navy help the number one spot and arguably it was displaced by the Germans.

      So holding up a completely useless and meaningless metric is just that - meaningless and useless. Beyond that, outside of naval power, the militarily and economically, the US sucked between WWI and WWII. Perhaps you've heard of the great depression.

    3. Re:Forty Carriers by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      Not at all--you are now talking about between the wars. Previously you said the US was not a superpower until after the end of the war. I was disagreeing with the latter point. There are major distinctions--for one, the Battleship was no longer the lynchpin of military prowess, as of mid-morning December 7, 1941. (And if that had not put the nail in the coffin, the sinking of the Yamato at Leyte was another symbolic end to the era of the battleship.) In addition, the size of the fleet in the Pacific before the war was tiny compared to late in the war. The US was very clearly a super power before the end of the war. I did not say it was one during the Depression--Roosevelt was greatly concerned with the state of Readiness of the United States prior to the war.

      And, of course, there's a subtle difference between a junked car and an aircraft carrier. Even a small aircraft carrier. =)

      The British Navy was sort of displaced by the Germans--it's more a question of types, though, with U-boats instead of surface ships. The U-boats were more effective at closing the North Atlantic than the Surface ships were at keeping it open.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
  30. Need to redo the national debt visualization by Quila · · Score: 1

    That's from before Obama had a chance to do anything. It's gone up almost 30% since then.

  31. The way to do this. by Chas · · Score: 2

    1: Stop with all the NEW pork projects in the government and military.

    2: Finish out any projects already on the books that are within their original budgets.

    3: Do not continue to pay for projects that are overdue.

    4: If projects are overdue, DEMAND DELIVERY.

    5: If the contractor cannot deliver, declare the project failed and in default.

    6: Liquidate the company's assets to recoup the cost of the failed project.

    7: Stop all the government welfare crap. If there's legitimate medical reason, maybe. I'm a big fan of government-created work programs though. Nothing like a lot of back-breaking labor to motivate someone to get a real job. Tie it into health and housing support with a small budget for food, etc.

    8: When an official is elected to office, liquidate all his assets and put them into a fund tied to the well-being of the economy. This way, if the economy does well, he has a lot of money when he leaves office. If the economy tanks, he's handed a set of clothes and turned out on the street when things are over. Tax rates would be fixed during their term and only take effect once their successor took office. This way they can't fix tax rates to generate false profit.

    I could go on, but you get the idea.

    Of course, this would never work. Politicians of all stripes would never actually DO this. The lousy fucking bastards are all more worried about keeping their jobs and lining their pockets than they are about actually doing something to help the country.

    Maybe they should wor

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:The way to do this. by blue+trane · · Score: 2

      Better idea: guarantee a basic income to everyone, and encourage innovation through challenges (biz can hold them too). The focus should be on the advance of knowledge and technology, because that is what raises standard of living and increases the survival fitness of society. Debt is a giant distraction, purely a way for attention-seeking bankers to seize control of the national discourse to gratify their egos.

  32. $16 trillion? Not really. by yuna49 · · Score: 1

    No mod points for me today, or you would have gotten a +1 Informative.

    Where, exactly, does this $16 trillion figure that Sanders cites appear in this document? That's about twice the current M2 money supply figure for the entire economy. The Executive Summary of the report cites a $1 trillion figure for the total of loans disbursed at the peak in 2008. As Figure 11 on the Report's page 137 shows, most of those loans have been fully paid back.

    So thanks the power of Ctrl-F, I searched for every "16" in the document. The number Sanders is citing appears on page 131, which does report a figure slightly over $16 trillion. However if you look carefully at these numbers, the big items are all from the "PDCF" facility, which provided collateralized overnight loans to big banks. As the Report notes, it's unfair to compare an overnight loan to one that has a much longer term. When the GAO adjusts these figures by length of term, the adjusted figure is more like $1.1 trillion.

  33. This Audit Was More Extensive by cmholm · · Score: 2

    Per the Wikipedia entry, normal audits of the Fed leave significant gaps, gaps that were to some degree addressed by this more through audit.

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    Luke, help me take this mask off ... Just for once, let me butterfly kiss you with my own eyes.
  34. VERY misleading by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I don't see how the federal reserve could have given out 16 trillion in secret loans when that represents more than five times the total assets of the federal reserve... Am I missing something?

    Yes you are. Investment banks live(d) on short term loans, often literally overnight. They might borrow $2 billion today and repay it tomorrow. Sometimes this money gets borrowed from other banks (commercial paper) or sometimes it is borrowed from the Federal Reserve. This is perfectly normal and nothing to normally get overly exited about. The only thing to get excited about is when it doesn't happen because that means there are liquidity problems. The thing that killed Lehman Brothers was precisely that no one would loan them any money - they basically ran out of liquidity.

    The $16 trillion figure is VERY misleading because it isn't one loan or even a few loans. It's a series of very short term loans done repeatedly. Big dollar amounts but we're talking millions to a several billion at any given time spread across many borrowers. This is EXACTLY what the purpose of the Fed is, to be the lender of last resort - to loan money when no one else can/will.

    $16 Trillion sounds like a lot (and it is) but the average daily trading volume in bonds is about $800 billion. During the financial crisis almost the only one lending was the government. Doesn't take long to get to $16 trillion in a market where the total market for debt outstanding at any given time is about $90 trillion. The bond market is 2-3X the size of the stock market.

  35. Top to Bottom Audit? Ha! by tekrat · · Score: 2

    Now if only they could find that 12 Billion that went missing in Iraq. Yeah, whatever happened to *that* ?

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  36. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    Things have changed a -bit- since then. I've heard one of the major problems was that interstate commerce was crippled by the conversion. Today, I can use my credit card in nearly any other country, if my debit card was paying out in florida dollars instead of montanas or whatever, I'd have to keep an eye on it, but it wouldn't be the huge hassle it was back then. I wouldn't have to take a horse and ride to the nearest town to change my currency.

    Which is not to say it wouldn't be a disaster for -different- reasons. At a minimum, I'm sure banks would love it if you couldn't use cash and they got to put a surcharge for converting between competing currencies. Plus I'm not a member of the "Free market forces improve EVERYTHING" religion.

  37. Act of congress by sjbe · · Score: 3, Informative

    Since when is the Federal Reserve an agency of the United States government?

    I would guess ever since the Federal Reserve System was created by an act of Congress, which has been amended some 200 times. All banks are required to be members of the Federal Reserve.

    Last time that I checked it was and still is a privately owned corporation.

    It is technically private but that doesn't mean it doesn't answer to the government. The Fed needs some independence to do its job properly. But the Fed is a quasi-governmental entity. It is backed up by the full faith and credit of the US government and only exists because Congress delegated some powers to it. It is private in the same sense that Fannie Mae was private. Technically true but well understood that it had the backing of the government.

    1. Re:Act of congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's even worse than private: It has backing by the government, but doesn't have to answer to the government for its actions.
      if you disagree, then answer me, why it didn't have to answer for its actions until now? (And I also wouldn't call the current "audit" taking responsibility either.)

    2. Re:Act of congress by Coolhand2120 · · Score: 1

      So in your world view, were "the fed" to have its 16 trillion in secret loans defaulted on the American tax payers would be on the hook for secret loans made by a non-government agency to a foreign bank for thousands of times our GDP? Maybe you should go back and read the law.

    3. Re:Act of congress by chaboud · · Score: 1

      The Fed has published regular reports about its actions (I have the 1929 and 1930 annual reports, and they're real laffers), and the Federal Reserve Act has been amended a *number* of times.

      Congress is going after the Fed because Congress boned us, hard in 1999. Funny how our legislators find everyone but themselves at fault, eh?

    4. Re:Act of congress by chaboud · · Score: 1

      That's not how the Fed works.

      They bought things. They bought securities and assets with money that they made out of thin air. When they sell those things, they nuke the money that they'd previously made and pocket a profit. The bulk of this profit goes to the U.S. Treasury.

      If they can't sell the assets that they purchased? Well, then they just increased the money supply.

      Still, I can't tell if you're arguing for or against something here...

    5. Re:Act of congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is technically private but that doesn't mean it doesn't answer to the government.

      Its hard to tell who the government is representing when executive move between the boardroom and the financial regulatory bodies. Look what happened with Goldman Sachs after the GFC. Open your eyes people.

    6. Re:Act of congress by randyleepublic · · Score: 0

      Well, wait a minute, what is the tail is and what is the dog? Sure the Fed reports to the "government", but that is the same government that is elected via the campaign contributions of the wealthy - who might also, you think, be the owners of the Fed.

      --
      Social Credit would solve everything...
    7. Re:Act of congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The ownership of Federal Reserve stock is not only private, it's secret.
      Two issues with that: 1) Can shareholders influence who gets loans? If so, they might derive monitary benefit from that influence and 2) the Federal Reserve pays hundreds of millions in dividends to shareholders every year.

      One source of ownership speculation:
      http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

    8. Re:Act of congress by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Creature from Jekyll Island (http://www.gibson2.com/econ135/fed.pdf) explains the origins of the Federal Reserve.

  38. federal reserve a privately owned corporation by lkcl · · Score: 1

    "Last time that I checked it was and still is a privately owned corporation." ... and this is supposed to make me feel better?? what the hell is the a privately owned corporation doing with an unregulated unrestricted uncontrolled license to print money, when the consequences and amounts are both so insanely high? i could understand... if there was actually anything IN THE RESERVE ... like... y'know.... gold? or something? y'know? i think you REALLY need to read Senator Ron Paul's book, "End the Fed".

  39. Federal Reserve's charter.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    is indeed to do just this - act as a source/sink to the financial system to filter out spikes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System).

  40. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by geekoid · · Score: 0

    Ron Paul needs to look at history. There is a reason we don't do that anymore.
    And if you can't bother to find out why on your own, then you shouldn't be allowed to vote.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  41. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by geekoid · · Score: 1

    Yep, banks would get together, and then refuse to take some currency, making it worthless. And then buy up property from people who defaulted because there money was suddenly deemed worthless.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  42. Yes, the US "Made" Money... by cmholm · · Score: 1

    You're correct, the US "made" money on these loans... because the Fed, with an accounting trick within its authority, in essence created trillions from thin air. The Fed created value - money - when buying what anyone else considered worthless.

    During its open market operations, the Fed expands or shrinks the money supply (a superset of physical currency) by buying or selling bonds or other financial instruments. The "loans" discussed here were created when the Fed "bought" bonds and short term paper from the private institutions. Where did the Fed get the money to pay for them? The stacks of Treasury notes, whose value is ultimately backed by the "full faith and credit of the United States", ie. the ability of the Federal government to tax and print money. (Side note: the GOP is currently destroying trillions of dollars worth of goodwill. Can we expect a check from the RNC to repay it?)

    Theoretically, this crap was backed by collateral. But, the edifice of fractional banking ultimately rests on a little bit of physical collateral, and a lot of trust. Since trust had by this time evaporated, the Fed was in effect passing out free money. While it's true that any surplus from Fed operations go the the US Treasury, the profits were a drop in the bucket against the trillions in value that drained out of the US economy.

    --
    Luke, help me take this mask off ... Just for once, let me butterfly kiss you with my own eyes.
  43. Wow, not one single person by Phoenix666 · · Score: 0

    modded above 3 thinks this is outrageous. The USA is done.

    If they line up the CEOs of Goldman Sachs, AIG, JP Morgan and all the rest of the usual suspects and summarily executed them, and then repossessed all their yachts and limos and burned their mansions to the ground, then personally I'd feel quite a bit better about $16 trillion of our fucking money being handed over to these creeps.

    And spare me the "it's just a loan" crap. "Just a loan" that never gets paid back.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
    1. Re:Wow, not one single person by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      The fall of Rome redux. It's bread and circuses from now on.

      I really should live out on a rural plot of land with a garden and guns-n-ammo stashed in a secret location. If the entire nation falls a part, I'm not going to feel very safe...at all.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    2. Re:Wow, not one single person by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      And spare me the "it's just a loan" crap. "Just a loan" that never gets paid back.

      Actually its a series of loans, all of which were paid back, and there was never that much money loaned out at one time.

  44. Wrong units. by roguegramma · · Score: 1

    Just goes to show that non-bankers use the wrong units to measure how much money was lent.

    --
    Hey don't blame me, IANAB
  45. Ron Paul supporters generally like Bernie by billstewart · · Score: 1

    You're mixing up Ron Paul supporters with Rush Limbaugh / Fox Noise supporters. Please don't. Free Markets and Republican political capitalism are much different things, and free marketers don't think ignorant insulting sloganeering is a good way to convince people to agree with you.

    Yes, we know Bernie, and people who like Ron Paul have generally paid enough attention to like Bernie Sanders even though we disagree with him on a lot of issues. He's a Socialist who's actually in favor of Socialism, using government resources to do good things for people, as opposed to somebody who likes big powerful intrusive government because they like power and can use their power to support their friends (we call most of those people "Republicans" and some of them "Democrats".) Sure, it's not economically sustainable, but the system we've got now tries to emulate many of the bad aspects of socialism and not the good ones.

    If you've noticed, and you apparently haven't, Ron Paul disagrees with most of Congress a lot, but when there are a couple of other people agreeing with him on something, it's usually Bernie or Dennis Kucinich. Occasionally it'll be a Tea Party Republican, but only if it's a fairly specific economic issue, and usually those guys would rather vote with the Party Machine or bully the Party Machine into doing what they want.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  46. I'd expect nerds to be smarter than average by m.dillon · · Score: 2

    But I guess it isn't so :-(

    This isn't really news. These weren't even real loans, they were just 28-day backstops during the money market meltdown. Just like the inflated values reporters loved to throw around about CDSs, it's more of the same here. They're just adding them all together sequentially (and conveniently forgetting to report the short durations and senior debt status).

    And, really, only a complete fool hopes and prays for the banking system to fail.

    Go looking somewhere else, this was one thing the Fed actually did right. And like TARP, the government didn't lose any money doing it either.

    If you want to complain about something complain about the use of the AIG bailout as an indirect method of bailing out the (mostly bank) counterparties. That was real money that didn't have to be paid back to the government.

    -Matt

    1. Re:I'd expect nerds to be smarter than average by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      The lesson is: the so-called debt crisis is completely manufactured, there's plenty of money because the Fed can create it, and talk of hyperinflation is hyperbolic.

  47. Democratic Socialists by DragonWriter · · Score: 2

    Fascinating that you didn't seem to notice that this came from Bernie Sanders who's the only self described democratic socialist in the national legislature.

    Bernard Sanders is not the only self-described democratic socialist in the Congress; there are at least 69 others (since, including Sanders, there are 70 members of the Democratic Socialists of America in Congress, but there may be additional self-described "democratic socialists" who are not members of the DSA.)

    1. Re:Democratic Socialists by vajrabum · · Score: 1

      You're a troll. By any definition that covers the Democratic party most of the Republican's qualify as well. If you support social security then you're a socialist along with a large number of very popular and successful gov't programs that have been in existence for longer than you've been alive. The Republican majority house, senate and president passed the Medicare drug benefit. If that isn't socialist then what is? The current trouble with our government is obviously agency capture by various industry groups for anyone who is paying attention. This is particularly true of banking. Both democrats and republicans are kowtowing to the bankers. And Ron Paul is still a racist.

  48. Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Expanding the money supply isn't necessary for economic growth - what happens instead is that as the economy grows, prices of everything fall, which is a reasonable response to having more stuff around for people to buy. This is mostly good. It means that you can save money and it'll be worth more to you in the future. On the other hand, it means that if you borrow money, it's effectively going to cost you more to pay it back, which is a problem if you want to take financial risks (like starting/expanding a business), and you might be more inclined to rent a house from a landlord than to borrow money to buy one yourself.

    Also, "expanding the money supply" means that the government effectively prints paper money and says "you have to accept this as payment on stuff", without them having done actual work to create more stuff in the economy. Why should they be allowed to do that? How do you keep them from doing it to excess, e.g. Weimar Germany where you needed wheelbarrows full of currency to buy bread, or Zimbabwe which has dropped at least 30 zeroes off their currency, leaving what a friend of mine called "homeopathic quantities of money"?

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by Jayson · · Score: 1

      Expanding the money supply isn't necessary for economic growth - what happens instead is that as the economy grows, prices of everything fall, which is a reasonable response to having more stuff around for people to buy.

      Deflation is a bad thing. Of the three main functions of currency, a stable unit of measurement is one of them. Falling prices because of lower demand or too much supply is one thing. Those are pricing signals. But if supply and demand do not change, the price shouldn't change. It would be like constantly redefining the inch every year to be larger and larger. Contracts to pay $100 for something then have to content with "well $100 from what year?" That is the same problem you have with inflation.

    2. Re:Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by billstewart · · Score: 1

      No, being a stable storage of value is one of them. If supply and demand don't change, the price won't be changing. Changing the amount of money in the system is like redefining the inch. If the money supply remains constant, instead of expanding, a contract to pay $100 will be a contract to pay $100 from your pocket, doesn't matter what year you got them.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    3. Re:Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by belg4mit · · Score: 1

      It's not necessary, or good, but a side-effect of the current system.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_as_Debt

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    4. Re:Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Expanding the money supply isn't necessary for economic growth - what happens instead is that as the economy grows, prices of everything fall

      Actually, it is by definition impossible for that ("prices of everything fall") to happen in a regime where the currency is effectively pegged to a particular commodity; if you have a notionally commodity-pegged currency and prices of everything fall relative to the curerncy, then the fundamental basis of your currency system has collapsed.

      This is mostly good. It means that you can save money and it'll be worth more to you in the future.

      Insofar as this is true, you can achieve exactly the same effect in a fiat money system by buying whatever commodity it is that, in a commodity-backed system, the currency would be pegged to. But the store of value function isn't the important function of money, the medium of exchange function is, and pegging it to a single commodity (and thus exposing your principal medium of exchange to supply and demand fluctuations in that commodity) is disastrous to the medium of exchange function. So why do it?

      Also, "expanding the money supply" means that the government effectively prints paper money and says "you have to accept this as payment on stuff", without them having done actual work to create more stuff in the economy. Why should they be allowed to do that? How do you keep them from doing it to excess, e.g. Weimar Germany where you needed wheelbarrows full of currency to buy bread, or Zimbabwe which has dropped at least 30 zeroes off their currency, leaving what a friend of mine called "homeopathic quantities of money"?

      How do you stop government from any other bad policy decision? In a democracy, you don't elect people that show a bent toward that decision. If your system of government is broken enough that you can't do that, your problem isn't with your currency system, its with your system of government, so fix the real problem.

    5. Re:Expanding Money Supply isn't Necessary by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Every year since the IBM PC, computer prices have been falling (or performance increasing, same thing).

      Has that caused a problem? Most people think it's great.

      Now imagine that for every sector of the economy.

      And falling computer prices doesn't mean computer companies going out of business. Apple, M$, HP, Dell seem to be fine, although MidWest and some others went away.

      A contract for $100 isn't a problem for you the receiver. That $100 will buy more goods and services in a constantly more productive economy. It's not really that much of a problem for the giver, either. First of all, if you want to buy something, buy it now. The reason companies make long term contracts in an economy where prices are increasing is to "lock in" the current price. Why do that if it'll be cheaper off-the-shelf next month?

      Second, negotiations for a computer contract:

      Supplier: I'll sell you 10 computers a month for 10 months at $1000 per computer.
      Vendor: But the price of computers has been falling every year. So I'll give $1000 per computer the first month, $999 the second month, $998 the third month.
      Supplier: OK.

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  49. Expanding Money Supply Already Happened by billstewart · · Score: 1

    On the other hand, just because I don't think expanding the money supply is a good idea, that doesn't mean it hasn't already happened to such an extent that we can actually get the US back onto the gold standard, given the amount of economic activity, the amount of gold in the world, the amount of real money, and the amount of fictitious funny money floating around in the financial markets, much less the huge interconnectedness of the world economy that's evolved since we went off the gold standard (which didn't happen because we went off the gold standard, but because protectionist regulation was reduced or eliminated, transportation costs dropped significantly, and lots of economic activity happened.)

    Gold is a commodity, and it has functional as well as speculative value, gold ownership is spread very unevenly around the economy between commodity users, speculators, and jewelry, and I'd be extremely surprised if the government could pick a gold price and suddenly declare "We're backing US dollars with gold at $X/oz and we'll buy whatever we need with the existing dollars to make that work" without radically twisting the market in ways that don't make economic sense.

    Ron Paul, with all due respect, hasn't really been paying much attention to the changes in the world economy over the last couple of decades. Yes, we could possibly have gone back to the gold standard in the early 1980s (after the Hunt Bros attempt to corner the markets during the ~1980 gold price bubble was over with.) But that was three decades ago, and you can't get back there again.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Expanding Money Supply Already Happened by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      Ron Paul, with all due respect, hasn't really been paying much attention to the changes in the world economy over the last couple of decades. Yes, we could possibly have gone back to the gold standard in the early 1980s (after the Hunt Bros attempt to corner the markets during the ~1980 gold price bubble was over with.) But that was three decades ago, and you can't get back there again.

      He no longer advocates a return to the gold standard. Or, perhaps more accurately, he desires a return to the gold standard, but what he has pushed for more recently is to declare gold (and likely other precious metals) to be legal tender, so that gold can be used as an alternative currency in the US. I suspect his reasons for doing so are in part because he recognizes that a full-on return is impossible at the moment, and in part because having gold present in everyone's consciousness would act as a check on further inflation of the money supply. It's harder for the Fed to pull shenanigans like creating $16T out of nothing when people can see the dollar price for something remain roughly the same while the price in gold drops by 25%, as would have happened over the past year.

  50. Perspective by rockwood · · Score: 2
    --
    Never try to beat a professional at his own game!
  51. Dollar backed by oil by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    And, as others have said, US was technically on the gold standard until 70s, this is how dollar became reserve currency of the world...

    Engineering the US dollar as the only accepted currency for OPEC oil purchases probably had a bit more to do with it of late.

    That's one reason the US government has been so down on Hugo Chavez -- he threatened to accept the euro in payment for Venezuelan oil, which would have seriously imperiled the valuation of the US dollar.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:Dollar backed by oil by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Also the reason for Saddam's downfall and now Kaddafi who wanted, along with some other African countries, to use a new gold-backed currency.
      America can not afford for the US$ to not be the reserve currency of the world.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  52. Why the Debt Ceiling Compromise Breaks It by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Also, the Debt Ceiling compromise is going to be a mess, and one obvious thing Obama can do besides raising taxes and cutting spending is to sell assets - he's been drawing down on the Strategic Oil Reserve already, mostly to manipulate gasoline prices, but he could always go sell all the gold in Ft. Knox just to annoy Ron Paul :-)

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Why the Debt Ceiling Compromise Breaks It by coinreturn · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. I have been promoting that idea for a LONG time. Sell it all to the Glenn Beck followers.

  53. "Secret" or "Private?" by fishbowl · · Score: 1

    Are they "secret" loans, or is it just that the details are private?

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    1. Re:"Secret" or "Private?" by MyFirstNameIsPaul · · Score: 1

      Prior to this act, if anyone asked the Federal Reserve about these loans, they would say that it is not appropriate for them to comment on the inner workings of the Fed. I would classify that in the secret category.

      --

      I once took an excursion to Reddit, and later HN. Unlimited up/down voting sucks when dealing with a hive-mind.

  54. Wall Street/Washington Pimped Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    $16 trillion?! More than our GDP in loans, SOME OF WHICH WENT TO FOREIGN BANKS AND CORPORATIONS?! When did our representatives put foreign countries above the welfare of the average American, all the while using American tax dollars as average Americans lost trillions in wealth (phantom, yes) and unemployment skyrocketed. Wait, it wasn't voted on by Congress- how convenient. Does anyone not believe that the average American is playing in a rigged system now? Fire Washington, burn the lobbyists out of town and tax Wall Street to its neck. If this doesn't show you who our government represents then you're one of them. THIS is the straw that breaks the camel's back, if we can't trust our government to support its own citizens in the crisis AT THE EXPENSE OF Americans then this game is over.

  55. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    as others have said, US was technically on the gold standard until 70s, this is how dollar became reserve currency of the world...

    Paul B.

    No we became the currency of the world after WWII because we bombed the crap out of the rest of the world. We took most other countries gold, and had them use the US dollar as their reserve currency since ours was still backed by gold and redeemable (by foreign governments) for gold.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  56. 1970s oil crises by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    You see the dollar's weakness. This was the supposed "oil crisis" of the 70's. There was no shortage of supply, or sudden change in demand or speculation. The dollar shit, after Nixon went all the way off.

    There were two major oil crises in the US in the 1970s. The first was before the official abandonment of the peg of the dollar to gold, when in an effort to reduce the trade deficit in order to preserve the peg Nixon imposed limits on oil imports (an effort which failed, which caused the complete abandonment of the already-merely-notional peg of the dollar to gold, and more significantly the peg of many other world currencies to the dollar), the second was when the Arab states raised prices globally and boycotted sales to Israel, the US, and certain close allies of those countries. So, your argument is wrong in, essentially, every point.

  57. You mean like this? I'm leaving USA, in my boat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    US debt isn't a Walmart warehouse stacked 4-6 high. Try 20 layers high to the ceiling.

    http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/usdebt.html

    I think it's safer to live out at Sea, rather than risk living in any country or nation because each and every one of them becomes fiscally irresponsible wherever the jews are allowed to control the nature of money.

  58. How is this news by MonkeySpaceCapsule · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not sure why this is news (google "short term loans federal bailout" for stuff back in march/april). The Fed Reserve admitted to as much months back, though it had to be coerced out of them. The loans (overseas and domestic) were done in an overnight or sub-week fashion in order to provide liquidity in the open market. Where I draw issue is that most of these banks had capital, but were unwilling to lend it. Instead, they were able to get essentially free (~0% interest) money with which they could purchase short-term positions with guaranteed returns (e.g., US Treasuries) and make considerable money. Almost *none* of this money was lent to small businesses (as that would've required a long-term loan from the Fed, which this was not).

    During that interval I really wished I would've qualified as a bank so I could (1) get huge sums of zero-interest short term money from the Fed and (2) just stash it somewhere to get returns in gov't bills.

    Also, the metric reported (16 trillion) is a bit skewed. If you imagine that this was done over 14 months and the loans were of a 2.5 day average, that means any given day only 95 billion dollars was actually wrapped up in loans ( e.g., the RMS loan value is $9.5e10= $16e12/(14 months*30days/month)*2.5days). However, taking that back-of-the-envelope number and calculating interest, that let (with 3% compound interest at 14 months), the collective of banks make ~3.6 billion in returns. So, given the loss to the community (e.g., free money of 3.6 billion to rich banks), versus the potential fallout if they hadn't made these loans (e.g., bank collapse??), I say that this was a *very* cost effective means of stabilizing the economy. This is in contrast to other "bailouts" and shovel-ready plans which essentially just funneled cash into poorly managed state slush funds and pet projects.

     

  59. Democratic Socialists of America by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Bernard Sanders is not the only self-described democratic socialist in the Congress; there are at least 69 others (since, including Sanders, there are 70 members of the Democratic Socialists of America in Congress, but there may be additional self-described "democratic socialists" who are not members of the DSA.)

    You're a troll.

    No, I'm not. Words and phrases have meaning, and "self-described democratic socialist" is a phrase that applies to more than one person in the US Congress.

    By any definition that covers the Democratic party most of the Republican's qualify as well.

    If I had been referring to the Democratic party, then I wouldn't have said 70, I would have said 244 -- there are more than 70 Democrats in Congress. But the issue isn't how you define "democratic socialist", its how people describe themselves (Bernie Sanders was described, in GGP, falsely as the only SELF-DESCRIBED democratic socialist in Congress.) The Democratic Socialists of America are a group whose membership includes many Democrats (and many people who aren't Democrats, of whom Bernard Sanders is the only one in Congress), and which identifies itself as the nation's largest socialist organization. I may have overstated the number in Congress, as the count of 70 was current as of the 111th Congress, but, still, Bernard Sanders is far from the only self-described democratic socialist in Congress.

  60. First assume a spherical cow... by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Ask 10 Economists about anything, and you will get 10 different answers. I don't see how that is based on math and science. Yes they have models and such, however there is a divide between the theroy, the models, and reality, which is what I think they get at.

    Case in point, if economics is based on sound science and math, why did no one really predict what happened?

    If an ideal world, I agree that economics can be modeled, and be meaningful. However we live in reality which is much dirtier, and not so precise. Anyway I don't reject the idea of economics and the use of math and science to try and explain things, but at best it is alike a pseudoscience like psychology or sociology.

    The take highly complex problems, with many important factors not included, and simplify it to the point where it makes sense in a model, but not in the real world. They can still be useful, but only in a limited way.

    The classic physics joke "First assume a spherical cow..." comes to mind.

  61. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How was it an abysmal failure? There were problems with interstate commerce but the Articles of Confederation was the government that defeated the British.

  62. Re:Not that you would stop spreading disinformatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because multiple competing currencies worked so great during the Articles of Confederation days, right? Oh wait, it was an abysmal failure.

    That was because those currencies were backed by banks and/or states, not the federal government, no? Not to mention that type of system would look vastly different in the digital age -- how easy is it to convert the pound-sterling or the euro to the us dollar these days?

  63. Douglas Adams Explains by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Folks,

    If you will kindly open your copy of "The Restaurant at the end of the Universe" by Douglas Adams, chapter 32 does an excellent job of explaining the predicament that we are in.

    Personally, I have stuffed my track suit with leaves and Zimbabwe $100,000,000,000 dollar bills to avert recession.

  64. over 100% of the US GDP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    $16 trillion is more than the roughly $14 trillion in the US's GDP in 2009. This shows the depth of the financial crisis and I'm frankly astonished that it isn't closer to $40 trillion which is about how much the housing bubble reduced Americas wealth by.

    My debt is roughly equal to one years worth of income so where's my bailout?