Galaxy Tab 10.1 Vs. iPad 2 Review

DeviceGuru writes "DeviceGuru's 10-inch tablet smackdown pits Samsung's Galaxy Tab 10.1 against Apple's iPad 2. At price parity the iPad 2 is probably a better bet for the average user since it's a more stable, near-perfect device with a rich assortment of apps for nearly every possible function you'd like to perform on a tablet, reasons the post. However, with the Samsung tablet's cost of goods rumored to be around $215 versus $260 for the iPad 2 for comparable models, Samsung could drop its 10-inch tablet's price to $425 and pose a serious challenge to Apple's device. But will they...?"

Comments

Better Value

[sonicmerlin]

If you can go on Newegg you can already get a 7 inch dual-core tablet for $300. Or you could get the Transformer for $400. Pretty soon Archos will release their own 10 inch dual core versions for sub $400. Heck the Viewsonic G Tablet has been out since last year for $300. Competitors will drive down the price of these tablets until they've pushed margins so low we finally get sub $300 10 inch tablets. Until then however I think the iPad 2 is just better bang for the buck.

Re:Better Value

[Starteck81]

I think it's wise to focus purely on the specs. WARNING CAR ANALOGY: It's like having powerful car but the seat is milk crate and the steering wheel is made of unpolished metal rods welded into a square. Sure, it's fast but the ergonomics are so awful that who would really want to use it? Most of the cheaper tablets out there suffer from the same problem.

Re:Better Value

[zoffdino]

My manager bought the Viewsonic G Tablet the same time I bought my iPad 2. His reasoning was that the G Tablet has the same hardware, hackable to run Honeycomb but at half the price of the iPad. He tried to sell it 2 weeks later for a $50 discount and no buyer as of yet (3+ months). It really scared me about the things that the G can't do: Skype video call, Netflix streaming, dearth of apps. At least Angry Birds was good. Even if Samsung is willing to take a dive and have a $75 price advantage over the iPad, the iPad still has better name recognition, and more apps. All the Android manufacturers keep pushing out new hardware, but software is what makes the consumers want them. Has any of them push for more indie dev other than Google?

Re:Better Value

[Microlith]

The G Tablet runs the same android as most other tablets. It's problem is the shitty screen that makes it unusable, and it came out running Android 2.2, so you had to root and install the market before it was usable.

Re:Better Value

[KreAture]

That is exactly how I feel the ipad is. Polished on the outside, secret on the inside and I am not allowed to peek inside nor add any update not approved by the manufacturer and without paying the manufacturer a piece of the update-price.
Oh, and the ipad comes without a passanger-seat and lighter-plug meaning if someone wants a ride, they have to take my seat, and I can't plug in anything.

Re:Better Value

[WillyWanker]

Stevie J, is that you?

Re:Better Value

[WillyWanker]

I think you don't give consumers enough credit. Yeah, there are a lot that run out and buy an iPad cause it's the cool new must-have tech gadget that they'll use for a month and then toss on the shelf (and then only pull out when friends come over or for social gatherings -- gotta keep up the "I'm cool" image). Then there are those that actually do pay attention to specs and features. Cause if that weren't the case every laptop sold would be an atom-based netbook.

Re:Better Value

[Starteck81]

This is not a personal attack so please don't take it as such. I understand that you want to play with the engine and stuff behind the dash board but that means you are not the target audience for iDevice products. Android is a better choice for you. My comment was aimed at the other 90% of the populations that do not want to tinker with the stuff behind the dashboard. Would you not agree that the iPad is a better choice for those who do not wish to tinker? If not please explain why.

Re:Better Value

[wootest]

You're right, buying a tablet because it's a cool new must-have tech gadget is idiotic. Buying a tablet because it has a dual-core processor makes much more sense!

Re:Better Value

[oakgrove]

Could you please explain to me what on my Xoom requires "tinkering"? It works pretty freaking well as far as I can see. I have had plenty of time with iPads and I don't see how they are easier to operate than an Android tablet with Honeycomb.

Re:Better Value

[node 3]

No, I think it's clear that you're the one not giving consumers enough credit. They are choosing, in overwhelming numbers, the tablet that they actually want. You're the condescending prick who is saying they are just mindless drones buying iPads for social status, right down to explaining why iPads are so visible everywhere as some sort of "conspicuous consumption" type display.

Specs are absolutely meaningless except in as much as they effect your experience with the product.

Then there are those that actually do pay attention to specs and features. Cause if that weren't the case every laptop sold would be an atom-based netbook.

How so? Nobody goes, "oh an Atom processor? That's an in-order, dual core 32-bit CPU, presently topping out at 1.X GHz..." They just know (or are advised) that netbooks are dumpy notebooks and buy accordingly. And if they buy poorly, their *experience* is affected. Which is what I pointed out in my first post. It's not the specs themselves that matter, it's the user experience those specs lead to.

So a dual core Android tablet doesn't mean experience parity with the iPad. All it means is that the Android tablet has a dual core processor, and is *probably* better than a single core Android tablet.

And, like I said, few people ever walk up and ask if a specific tablet is dual core or not. All they care about is how well it works. And for that, the iPad is head and shoulders above the "competition".

And if you gave consumers as much credit as you say you do, you'd understand that.

Re:Better Value

[wzinc]

I'm an Android developer because my job requires it, but I wouldn't buy an Android device. When it comes to my personal phone, I'm just a user, and users would much rather have an app or device with five working features than one with fifty buggy features. I like the mobile space because, unless I finally start developing for iOS, I get to approach it as an ordinary user.

Re:Better Value

[Anonymous Coward]

I have had plenty of time with iPads and I don't see how they are easier to operate than an Android tablet with Honeycomb.

That's because they look/feel a lot like iPads.

Re:Better Value

[WillyWanker]

I'm sorry, did I insult your fruit-based sensitivities? Cause you seem pretty ornery. Or do you just not like people dissing the glory of all things Apple?

And are you sure you read the article here, cause I don't recall the part about the iPad being "head and shoulders above the competition". I'm pretty sure it said they were just about equal, and which you should get depends upon whether you prefer Apple's closed-space environment or Android's open one. I guess you must have been thinking about that Mac Life article you read last year.

I think most people know that a dual-core unit will provide better performance than a single-core unit, so no, it's not an usual question when comparing devices. It's actually a SMART question to ask. Unless they're buying it for show, and then they wouldn't care if it was powered by calculator guts. I know, I know, Apple fanatics don't ask those kinds of silly questions, they just want the device with the highest number. Cause what would their family think of them if they still had last year's model?!?!?

Re:Better Value

[JorDan Clock]

Could you please explain to me what on my Xoom requires "tinkering"?

The price.

Re:Better Value

[WrongSizeGlass]

Could you please explain to me what on my Xoom requires "tinkering"?

Nothing requires tinkering. But if you want to tinker then the Xoom is a better choice. If you don't want to tinker then either device is a (potentially) a good choice based on your wants, needs and any other Android or iOS devices you own or use.

Re:Better Value

[jimicus]

Five years ago, if you wanted a hard-disk based MP3 player with 20GB of capacity, you had one or two choices. The iPod; I believe Toshiba had their own product, as did iRiver.

Price-wise, there wasn't an enormous amount between them. The iPod was slightly dearer, but not a huge amount by any means - maybe £20 or so. The competition was - as a rule:

- Bulkier.
- Shipped with much poorer software (be it in the form of firmware and the UI provided by said firmware or in the form of software which you had to install on your PC to load music onto the device).

Today, I think the story's much the same. You can save £10-20 (big f*ing deal) and in exchange you get a device that's bulkier, ships with much worse software and doesn't work as well.

Re:Better Value

[Sable Drakon]

That'd be awesome if Archos actually supported their older hardware at all. Can you imagine the situation that users would be in when Archos releases the successors to their first 10 inch Android tablets? It'd end up the same state that a lot of smartphone owners find themselves in when their carrier/hardware vendor chose to not upgrade the software on those phones. No thanks.

Re:Better Value

[ozmanjusri]

No, that's not true. I bought the Asus Transformer.

I like tinkering myself, but my GF is determinedly non-geek and still prefers the Android interface to iOS. Given that the hardware specs favour the Asus, as does the price, the Transformer is clearly a better device than the iPad.

Re:Better Value

[cynyr]

I think the better part of your argument is the lack of "the passenger seat" (multiple account support). These devices really do get passed round/left on a coffee table. I know if i had one, and left it out i would expect that my guests feel free to pick it up and play with it.

Both iOS and Android are rather weak in this area to be honest and I hope someone gets it together soon. I'd still probably not consider the iPad due to the hood being welded shut, but with the correct maintenance agreement i could be persuaded.

Re:Better Value

[exomondo]

Today, I think the story's much the same. You can save £10-20 (big f*ing deal) and in exchange you get a device that's bulkier, ships with much worse software and doesn't work as well.

If you read TFA you'll see the featured Android device is the same thickness and is a bit lighter, so if anything the ipad is the one that is bulkier. I don't really have much experience with Android (tablet-wise i use an ipad and haven't had an Android phone) but from as much as i have used it I haven't found the software to be worse in any way nor to not work as well, maybe it depends on what you're doing with it.

Re:Better Value

[cynyr]

THERE IS NO COMMAND LINE IN WINDOWS... by hairyfeet (841228)
Protip: Never go full retard.

Well for certain values of command line that is true. Let me know how to create a shortcut as simply as "ln -s" from the windows stock command line(no cheating and using powershell)

Re:Better Value

[nathanh]

That is exactly how I feel the ipad is. Polished on the outside, secret on the inside

It's not secret on the inside. The hardware and software APIs are extremely well documented. You are confusing your ignorance of the product with an imagined secrecy.

I am not allowed to peek inside nor add any update not approved by the manufacturer

You are allowed to peek inside - Apple even has a free developer program and downloadable tools to let you do exactly that. Download the free OS developer tools, develop any app you like, and install your app on your IOS device.

The only caveat is that Apple won't help you install "whatever update you like". And you most certainly can't sell products on the Apple App Store that don't conform to their rules. But there's nothing stopping *you* from installing *your* apps on *your* devices.

This is what irks me about the supposedly Free Software and Open Source advocates when it comes to Apple's IOS. Free Software could really go to town on IOS. For example, Apple won't distribute MAME through their App Store; and fair enough too. But anybody with a free developer account could compile the source code for MAME for IOS (assuming it exists) into an app, sign that build with their developer certificate, then upload the binary onto their own phone.

Instead people bitch-and-moan that they can't use Apple's App Store to distribute binaries. Why is that a problem? This is a community built on open source and free software. So why not distribute the apps as source. If open-source is such a big deal, why the fascination with bundling everything up as binaries and asking Apple to distribute it?

So you could have any app you like on your iPad or iPhone. The only barrier to entry is you need to know how to compile and install software. Is that really a problem in the Free Software world which has distros like Gentoo? It would keep out all the annoying non-developers too. It would be like the good old days of Linux when everybody actually knew UNIX; before the hoi-polloi found out about it and fucked it up.

Re:Better Value

[brim4brim]

I have had plenty of time with iPads and I don't see how they are easier to operate than an Android tablet with Honeycomb.

That's because they look/feel a lot like iPads.

Which proves the point. Why not buy something that looks and feels like an iPad but isn't one and the answer is of course, brand loyalty/brand choice/lack of willingness to shop around/take your pick. Reality is the difference is negligible between the two software platforms and there isn't that much to the hardware to go wrong so why pay the premium? If the Apple logo means that much to someone then by all means but everyone else, go nuts on cheaper tablets.

Re:Better Value

[KreAture]

I feel the iStuff (tm?) is suited for people who need to be told they are special and successfull. Btw, would you buy a extra large rubber bumper for your car to avoid it breaking from a slight ding or would you rather it be designed to actually withstand normal use? Would you have bought it if it had been designed with that rubber bumper prefitted and non-removeable instead?

That being said. I do agree on one point, stuff needs to work out of the box.
When it comes to android stuff I have never been dissappointed and never had to tinker to get it working. I have however never been prevented from distributing my app to my customers without apple requiring payment either.

Re:Better Value

[Dunbal]

Must be an Apple user. You're surprised? But don't worry he'll choke on his latte soon when he reads the financial column and watches his 401(k) evaporate again. October is coming...

Re:Better Value

[KreAture]

Thankyou! You seem to be the only one getting it...

Mods! Attention please! This guy actually gets it! Mod up please!

Re:Better Value

[peragrin]

90% of the population won't change their own oil, and only put air in the tires when they have too.

these people put gas in their cars and that is all. iDevices are similar, you set it up once, and maybe add a fancy steering wheel cover, and that is it.

Re:Better Value

[Hognoxious]

Five years ago, if you wanted a hard-disk based MP3 player with 20GB of capacity, you had one or two choices. The iPod; I believe Toshiba had their own product, as did iRiver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archos_Jukebox_series#Jukebox_Recorder

Oops, my bad. That was nine years ago, not five.

Re:Better Value

[KreAture]

Can you be sure your hard work will even reach the appstore? They change the rules of what is accepted every day.
Can you compile an app and send it to 20 ppl to test, or deliver it privately to a customer? Can you be sure that the devtool isn't sending information of your top secret app to be delivered directly to customer (and owned by your customer) to Apple?
Btw, I never moaned about what you say.
I also didn't mean closed as in source. Nor secret as in undocumented hardware or api. It was more of a "not allowed to" reference.

As for transfering the built app... You have to use itunes while on android you can simply copy a file via any mass storage compatible system. The same goes for your music and you can sync with as many computers as you want and even use your device to keep the comps synced. (rsync anyone?)

Re:Better Value

[CheerfulMacFanboy]

Could you please explain to me what on my Xoom requires "tinkering"?

Maybe you should ask the guy he's replying to?

Re:Better Value

[blacklint]

Unless it has changed in the past couple years since I've last looked, deploying code to your own iOS device requires a $99/year developer subscription. Which very much is preventing me from installing my apps on my devices. The free tools don't provide you with a certificate to deploy to real hardware, only the emulator.

Re:Better Value

[Anonymous Coward]

"mklink" or "mklink /h"

Re:Better Value

[cynyr]

you missed, "yet that $20 savings gets you a USB host port, an HDMI port, and the ability to simply load music and videos on the device from any computer or from the device plugged into the USB port. It also gets you a micro SD card slot, and usually the ability to have more than 1 battery."

Re:Better Value

[node 3]

I'm sorry, did I insult your fruit-based sensitivities? Cause you seem pretty ornery. Or do you just not like people dissing the glory of all things Apple?

No, you're just an asshole who thinks that anyone with an opinion other than yours is stupid.

And are you sure you read the article here, cause I don't recall the part about the iPad being "head and shoulders above the competition".

Um, no, that was my words.

I'm pretty sure it said they were just about equal, and which you should get depends upon whether you prefer Apple's closed-space environment or Android's open one. I guess you must have been thinking about that Mac Life article you read last year.

No, they pretty much bent over backwards to try to pretend the two are about equal, like most Android vs iPad reviews. And you keep confusing me for some sort of mythical "fanboy". I don't read Mac Life. This is just another example of your "if you disagree with me, you're stupid" attitude.

I think most people know that a dual-core unit will provide better performance than a single-core unit, so no, it's not an usual question when comparing devices.

Yes, it's an exceptionally unusual question. Just so we're clear, you are honestly trying to say that people commonly ask, "is this tablet dual core" at Best Buy, Apple Stores, etc.?

It's actually a SMART question to ask. Unless they're buying it for show, and then they wouldn't care if it was powered by calculator guts.

And you continue to completely miss the point. Consumers don't give a fuck about cores and GHz and such. All they really care about is how the thing works. An Android device with 8 cores doesn't mean shit if a single core iPad is more enjoyable to use.

I know, I know, Apple fanatics don't ask those kinds of silly questions, they just want the device with the highest number. Cause what would their family think of them if they still had last year's model?!?!?

Again, you are being an arrogant prick. "If you disagree with me, you're stupid, you're a fanboy."

Clue: most people aren't nerds. They don't like what you like, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Re:Better Value

[sapphire wyvern]

PowerShell is the stock command line if you're using a version of Windows that's less than 10 years old.

Re:Better Value

[Sepultura]

I am not allowed to peek inside nor add any update not approved by the manufacturer and without paying the manufacturer a piece of the update-price.

Please stop spouting this bullshit - you can do whatever the hell you want with your iPad. Just don't expect Apple support. Just like *gasp* automakers will drop support/warranty if you decide you want to add a turbo.

Re:Better Value

[BobaFett]

Skype runs fine on G-Tablet. It's one of the few Android devices, other than the few officially blessed HTC phones, which can run the Netflix app (you need to replace stock ROM with Cyanogen, but Cyanogen is by far superior ROM anyway).

Re:Better Value

[Dr Max]

This is exactly what tfa said its not that apple is better or android does more. Its that you get a customisable open plan package you can individualise on android (if you can handle it) and the same easy to use simple package everybody gets with an apple on an ipad. Whoever turned it into a /. story is trying to start a war but the article was quite fair. It depends whether you want to tinker with the engine, install your own aftermarket steering wheel and slushy machine, or if you just want a car that will take you to the shops when you need milk.

Re:Better Value

[index0]

add kernel support so you can access your windows shared folders.

Re:Better Value

[cyfer2000]

Are you saying by rooting and installing the market, the screen becomes better?

Re:Better Value

[CastrTroy]

Your analogy sucks. Most new cars have bumpers that will crack even with minor hits. And since they aren't made of metal, you can't just pound them out anymore, you have to replace the entire bumper.

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

This is what irks me about the supposedly Free Software and Open Source advocates when it comes to Apple's IOS. Free Software could really go to town on IOS. For example, Apple won't distribute MAME through their App Store; and fair enough too. But anybody with a free developer account could compile the source code for MAME for IOS (assuming it exists) into an app, sign that build with their developer certificate, then upload the binary onto their own phone.

Most people don't have the $1,000 or so to buy the hardware required to make use of the "free developer account". And, don't even start down the road of claiming that everyone who has an iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch also has a Mac.

Unless you are planning on making money from an iOS app, you won't go out and buy a Mac just to allow you to put a few apps on your phone. If you already have a Mac, you might spring for the $99/year for the certificate, even if only for an app or two. But, if you are faced with the same issue on Android (wanting an app that you just can't get from any app store), all you need is any x86 hardware and the completely free Android SDK.

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

Five years ago, if you wanted a hard-disk based MP3 player with 20GB of capacity, you had one or two choices. The iPod; I believe Toshiba had their own product, as did iRiver.

My five-year-old Archos portable media player (calling a device that can play back HD movies with full surround sound an "MP3 player" is just wrong) with an 80GB hard drive begs to differ with your recollection.

Not only was it was cheaper than even a 32GB iPod, but it also had a much larger screen (so yeah, it was "bulkier", but it still fit in a pocket), an easy-to-use interface, didn't require special software to load media files (it was just a USB hard drive), and inexpensive interchangeable rechargeable batteries (less than $30 for a new battery that gives 12 hours of music or about 4 hours of video, and can be swapped in about 10 seconds).

Re:Better Value

[whiteboy86]

The green robot with linux brain is loose and winning over iPad here in Europe already -- Transformer, Multipad, Yarvik, Archos, Flyer sell more then iPad 2 at the biggest online retailer overhere (bestsellers listing), also of note is that Nokia sell like 10x more phones then Apple in that store so it might be due to some unfamiliarity with Apple products or something...

Re:Better Value

[Falconhell]

Arrogant prick fanboy writes like fanboy, doesnt like being called ,whoodathunkit?

Re:Better Value

[PopeRatzo]

That is exactly how I feel the ipad is. Polished on the outside, secret on the inside and I am not allowed to peek inside nor add any update not approved by the manufacturer and without paying the manufacturer a piece of the update-price.

Where does the fun come in?

I know I'm in the minority, but if I can't pop the lid and mess with the noodles without violating some eternal oath, or having it turned by remote control into a very slick-looking trivet, it's just not for me.

God bless 'em for selling a zillion. My Apple stock continues to enhance my nest egg (but not as much as if they'd pay a goddamn dividend instead of just accumulating a war chest to buy the competition). However, it's just not for me. It wasn't designed with me in mind, and it doesn't fire my imagination. A $250 Android tablet, on the other hand...

So I'll leave the iPads for others to buy and watch closely for just the right moment to sell my stock.

Re:Better Value

[cats-paw]

I just tried an Archos 4.3 and it was a real POS - I doubt there tablet will be much better.

The fact is that Apple puts out a product that works.

Everybody else makes you the beta tester. I don't need that kind of aggravation to save a $100.

Re:Better Value

[rtb61]

The big reason to go for cheaper tablets is always going to be drop factor. You playing with something in your hands, something fairly large and fairly heavy ie something more drop-able than a mobile phone and note neither manufacturer (or one manufacturer operating under different badges) gives any durability ratings.

Samsung pricing most likely takes into account their extensive notebook and netbook range at that pricing point. Perhaps from their viewpoint, the tablet is nothing but a product line filler not to be taken to seriously, when they can do a fifteen inch notebook for the same price (consider the majority of users who will not buy a tablet as their third or fourth concurrent computing device).

Re:Better Value

[smash]

This, a million times this. Apple do not compete on spec vs price. However, in actual use their gear is generally pretty bloody hard to beat, and its also why they're so anal about protecting the IOS user interface and iphone/ipad styling.

Comparing spec sheets between apple and clone equipment doesn't show the whole story. Go and actually USE the devices back to back and pick which one you prefer. For some people the trade-offs go in favour of apple, for others they don't.

Another car analogy: its like comparing a 400hp turbo jap import against a Ferrari F430. Power:weight may be similar, on paper spec may be similar, but i guarantee you that the F430 is a more complete package.

Re:Better Value

[mwvdlee]

or if you just want a car that will take you to the only shop in the world when you need milk.

FTFY. We're talking about iPad here ;)
Also, you'll only be able to buy the milk if the shop owner doesn't provide a milk-like product themselves.

Re:Better Value

[mwvdlee]

Sounds good!
Could you please tell me where I can download the official IOS dev tools for Linux?

Re:Better Value

[ozmanjusri]

add kernel support so you can access your windows shared folders.

Does the Xoom need kernel modification for that?

I'm using the AndSMB app on my Asus to access my fileshares.

Re:Better Value

[mwvdlee]

It's no different to getting an SSL cert from Verisign; the $99 just establishes a level of trust between you and Apple.

Except that the Verisign SSL cert is used so other people can trust me. I kinda trust myself not do steal my own privacy or infect my own devices, so why do I still need to pay $99 to Apple in order to be able to trust myself? Also, why doesn't Apple allow developers to use any development tools they want? There's no good technical reason for that. It's not so much the money that's the problem with Apple, it's the complete lack of choice.

Re:Better Value

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Except that the Verisign SSL cert is used so other people can trust me. I kinda trust myself not do steal my own privacy or infect my own devices, so why do I still need to pay $99 to Apple in order to be able to trust myself?

True, I hope Apple changes this in future.

Also, why doesn't Apple allow developers to use any development tools they want? There's no good technical reason for that. It's not so much the money that's the problem with Apple, it's the complete lack of choice.

There's no secret sauce, it's all just gcc in the end. See also iPhone Dev, which has been around since the original iPhone :

"The goal of the iphone-dev project is to create a free, portable, high quality toolchain to enable development for the Apple iPhone and other embedded devices based on the ARM/Darwin platform."

Supported and tested on a bunch of Linux distributions too. Of course you don't get the nice GUI etc. you get in Xcode, but you can't blame Apple for not porting that to other platforms anymore than you would expect MS to port Visual Studio to Linux.

Re:Better Value

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Unofficial tools exist. There's no mystery, Apple releases tools on their platform which support their platform just like MS does or pretty much every vendor since the dawn of time. Why the hell would they want to waste all that effort to port Xcode to Windows and/or Linux ?

Re:Better Value

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Not in Belgium as far as I can see. Neither on the train (I've seen maybe 1 non-Apple tablet) nor at retailers where Android tablets lie forlorn in bargain bins while the iPad display tables are always crowded.

Re:Better Value

[CharlyFoxtrot]

(you need to replace stock ROM with Cyanogen, but Cyanogen is by far superior ROM anyway).

That pretty much sums up the problem with Android doesn't it ? Maybe Android is so popular among geeks because they can't stand the thought of no longer being needed to do stupid shit like this for all their friends and family members. Geek codependency.

Re:Better Value

[beelsebob]

There's no secret sauce, it's all just gcc in the end.

clang actually, but that's okay – that's even more open (BSD) than gcc.

Re:Better Value

[beelsebob]

I know I'm in the minority, but if I can't pop the lid and mess with the noodles without violating some eternal oath, or having it turned by remote control into a very slick-looking trivet, it's just not for me.

Then you'll feel very comfortable rooting it and playing around inside.

Re:Better Value

[beelsebob]

It's amazing that people spend all their time moaning that you need to root an iPad to have fun with it... and then have no problem going "oh, just root it and install a different ROM" when it comes to android tablets.

Re:Better Value

[Patch86]

All modern tablets look and feel like all modern tablets look and feel. Just because the iPad might have done it first, it doesn't mean other offerings are automatically worse.

Re:Better Value

[Xest]

Agreed, I actually own an iPad 2, but not an Android tablet. I do however have an Android phone.

There's a lot of rough edges on the iPad, it's merely a myth by Apple fanboys that it's got a somehow perfect UI experience. I don't know how Android tablets compare, because I've never used one, but certainly compared to Android on my phone, Android is the nicer OS imo. It has no more rough edges than the iPhone, and yet has a lot more features.

To cite some examples, I don't like how in the Apple store, if you want to browse games, they're not terribly well categorised into genre. If you scroll through the full list of all 3500 or whatever, and get half way through the list, select a game to view, then go back, it drops you right back to the start of the list, so good luck finding what page you were on again. I've found clearing search filters and then searching on category returns no results, which seems like an illogical action to me, you have to go back to the start and start again. I don't know why there was ever a whine about fragmentation on Android, the half-size game rendering with a little 2x button to double the pixel size to play iPhone apps on the iPad is the most god awful hack I've ever seen, it's just brutal. Sometimes you get a question about wanting permissions for something that doesn't really have any meaning to anyone who doesn't already understand it (i.e. regarding notifications). There's also a lot of use of touch where there really needn't be such that you end up having to guess what gesture you're meant to do where half the time, or even bypass believing the feature isn't there because there's no sensible UI indicator a gesture is possible on some interface elements to manipulate them. The standard Apple device quirks, like having to hand over your name, phone number, address, and so forth just to be able to even use the device in the first place utterly stink, and getting media onto it seems to be an absolute pain, you either have to find some app, or convert it, and then sync your media via iTunes- far easier on Android to just copy it straight across via USB, Wifi, or taking the SD card out tbh.

Of course don't get me wrong, I still like it, it's a nice device, but being objective about it it's not the miracle device Apple fanboys make out, it certainly has at least as many rough edges as Android, but fundamentally the biggest problem is that sometimes I sit down with it and think is that it? You've got a desktop with list of icons, and you've got the apps they lead to which themselves are somewhat restricted as to what they're allowed to do. I don't like the fact you can't have useful gadgets on the desktop, I don't like the fact I have to use the iPhones shitty keyboard and less than stellar autocomplete that acompanies it and completes when you don't want it to, and that you can't instead have something like Swype- you really can feel the restrictions on the device when you've used Android and then use an Apple device for a while, they really are quite painfully limiting.

My partner likes the iPad 2 for what it is, she likes being able to just use iPlayer and such on it, but I think both of us agree, had we not received it free as a gift we certainly wouldn't have bought one, but to be fair it's likely we wouldn't (yet) have bought an Android tablet either, however if we did buy a tablet off our own backs at some point, then it probably would have been Android- there's just no benefit to the Apple experience, the fragmentation issue is apparent on Windows desktops to Android, to iPads - it's a fact of computing progress, the rough edges exist in no more numerous or serious ways on both operating systems, but most damning is that the restrictiveness of the Apple ecosystem really can be felt and that's where the iPad falls down.

Re:Better Value

[rtfa-troll]

Would you not agree that the iPad is a better choice for those who do not wish to tinker? If not please explain why.

This is to do with a difficult (for those people) to explain concept called "lock in". When you use a device, gradually you get used to and start using it's features. Much of the time, changing to a different device will be easy and no problem, but there are some applications such as office documents; film editing; social networking and so on where the data you use is so specific and complex (e.g. the exact layout and fonts in the office documents) that it's almost impossible to switch to an equivalent application. At the point where you have put a large investment into such an application you are vulnerable to "lock in" and if you need a new feature (e.g. your supplier demands you export office documents in PDF) you will have to pay whatever your supplier demands for that feature.

If you choose a device where you can tinker; even if you personally don't tinker, this means that there are other people who can also supply your needs and reduces the price you have to pay for new features you need from the price the original supplier is willing to charge down to the price that the competitive market is willing to charge. That price may still be high (e.g. you may have to hire a programmer and get a custom software project done) but it will be lower than the price is likely to be otherwise (if you have to persuade Apple to do custom development just for you).

I don't want to leave it with just this simple case; there are other "freedom" related facts; you may well find that someone has already developed the software you want. You may find that, once you experience a bit of freedom you start to want to and benefit from tinkering. However it's important to understand that the availability of freedom improves your life even if you, personally, just choose to do what Apple would have wanted you to do anyway. Even people who buy Apple platforms benefit from this because features available on Android and missing from IOS become targets for Apple to fill in.

Re:Better Value

[sparrowhead]

Make that 2 years. Not even Server 2008 shipped with the PowerShell

Re:Better Value

[geminidomino]

Not entirely true on the second point. I had an Neuros II (I think it was an Archos) which, like a lot of MP3 players at that time besides the iPod, had full MSD support, instead of needing crappy software, and few of them were as flaky on PC as iTunes (Nomad Jukebox, however, was). The UI was better, too, with actual buttons instead of a thumbwheel which, subjectively, I think blows goats.

It was the size of a half-brick, though. That part is true.

How is the story the same today? Is anyone besides Apple still making an "iPod Classic" type music player? Not full PMPs or mini-tablets or any of that fancy crap, but just a basic hard-drive based player? When Apple axes the Classic line and mine dies, I'm pretty much screwed.

It's a messed up world when Apple is the only one out there meeting one's modest needs.

Re:Better Value

[improfane]

No, we shouldn't have to pay to get *our* software out there. We're volunteers, we are doing it out of the goodness for our hearts, why should we pay a hardware corporation to distribute open source software?

Re:Better Value

[improfane]

Except you pay a premium for that privilege. Buy a non Apple product and you can do it on the cheap.

Re:Better Value

[borum]

Can you be sure your hard work will even reach the appstore? They change the rules of what is accepted every day.

Yes, you can be sure. Check the terms if in doubt. They change a few times a year - usually clarifications. Sometimes, though, it is a huge change of rules (like the in-app subscription thing).

Can you compile an app and send it to 20 ppl to test, or deliver it privately to a customer?

Yes.

Can you be sure that the devtool isn't sending information of your top secret app to be delivered directly to customer (and owned by your customer) to Apple?

Reasonably sure. Monitor the network traffic if in doubt.

As for transfering the built app... You have to use itunes while on android you can simply copy a file via any mass storage compatible system. The same goes for your music and you can sync with as many computers as you want and even use your device to keep the comps synced. (rsync anyone?)

Over the air transfer of apps - including custom built apps - works just fine.

Re:Better Value

[jimicus]

My argument is that five years ago, Apple were making a product which may not have been any better technologically than their rivals but was rather more refined.

Today, the iPad may not be any better technologically than its rivals but it's rather more refined. A lot of people see their computer as some sort of a magic box which is great when it works but frequently doesn't quite do what they want it to - and find the "doesn't quite do what they want it to" bit immensely frustrating. For such people, this refinement is hugely important.

Re:Better Value

[silanea]

Let me get this straight. You truly cannot fathom why FLOSS developers shun the Apple ecosystem in favour of Android when by your own admittance developing iOS apps for your own device comes with a $99 or, more realistically for the majority, $1099 premium on a $499 (for the cheapest model) price tag versus no additional cost whatoever (I do not know anyone with a tablet but no x86 compatible machine) and $300 to $500 pricetag? Wow. I thought such people existed only in soap operas and politics.

Re:Better Value

[karnal]

Mine actually caved when I attempted to take out a small snowdrift a few years ago. Since it's plastic, it just pops back to shape. Sure, the paint is cracked and chipped all along where the force was applied, but I really don't care what the paint looks like on a 12 year old car. Just had to reach behind with my hand and "pop" it back out to it's normal pre-impact state. I'm betting I could sand it down and repaint it if I really cared; but the rest of the car's paint is starting to show it's age.

Re:Better Value

[Pieroxy]

http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/

Re:Better Value

[Vectormatic]

I might be secretely cheating here (dont know if windows 7 has powershell by default), but mklink surely works

Re:Better Value

[Pieroxy]

Of course! 99% of so-called OSS-advocates, are really looking for good software that is $0 and legal. Nothing else matters.

Re:Better Value

[improfane]

If I were going to buy a smartphone, I would personally buy an Android device even if it was more expensive than an equivalent Apple device. The reason is the ecosystems are slightly different. I can do what I want on Android, that has more value than Idevice.

Re:Better Value

[Pieroxy]

My friend, you are simply dreaming. I don't say that this store you're talking about doesn't exist, but the ipad2 is outselling all the devices you mentioned combined in most other stores ! And that's pretty much all across Europe (and north america for that matter)

Now, of course, Android will catch up as it did with phones. Obviously a piece of free software backed by 20+ tablet makers will eventually overcome the one product made by Apple. Of course. But none of these products will beat Apple when it comes to a 1 on 1 fight.

Re:Better Value

[Carewolf]

I cannot fathom why FLOSS developers claim it's all about liberty and freedom, then balk at the price.

Can you fathom why FLOSS users balk at paying $100/year + $1000 one time fee for access to free software that is always $0 free as long as they STAY AWAY from Apple?

Can you troll?

Re:Better Value

[Vectormatic]

It is about both.

I dislike apple's model with iOs, i vehemently hate my ipod touch for its reliance on itunes, or shady workaround software. However, as a programmer interested in trying my hand at app development, the fact that i dont have a mac, and it would cost me roughly near 1000 euros to acquire a recent one to develop on is as much of a roadblock as their policies. I have more x86 hardware then i can shake a stick at (i literally just started throwing out old P4 machines since i cant think of any reason to keep them), i have an old thinkpad which i got for 50 bucks which works just dandy for android development.

Why would i want to start out my small experiment with investing 1000 euros just to be able to program?

Re:Better Value

[geminidomino]

My argument is that five years ago, Apple were making a product which may not have been any better technologically than their rivals but was rather more refined.

Except that's not true, then or now. It was better marketed, but the "refinements" were a new input method which was oohed and ahhed, but ultimately harder to use than the standard buttons everyone was used to. The required software was bulky, invasive, and buggy.

What the iPod had was aggressive marketing. You never saw Creative Labs hiring whiny has-been rockers to sell Nomads. In fact, you never saw a Nomad commercial on TV, period.

A lot of people see their computer as some sort of a magic box which is great when it works but frequently doesn't quite do what they want it to - and find the "doesn't quite do what they want it to" bit immensely frustrating. For such people, this refinement is hugely important.

Apple users have their fair share of issues, same as PC users. More so when it comes to things like interoperability. And if you think Uncle Billy doesn't care about interoperability, you've never had to explain why he can't send a "Pages" file out to the family mailing list and have everyone be able to read it, just like you had to do with "Word" files back in the days before OO.o et al.

"Just Works" is as much pure marketing and as disconnected from reality as your statement about iTunes being "better software" than those that came with competing devices. You're still going to need to handhold the newbies, and established users, even power users, are going to suffer problems because of the "visionary" design BS, which screws with long-established, if ad-hoc, usability standards because it was aesthetically displeasing to some d-bag in a turtleneck.

The strange thing about this iteration is that the competition isn't trying to beat the Apple tax. Tablets are still a niche, but the use cases for them are pretty limited, regardless of which one you have. When you have feature parity (no, a beveled case is not a "feature"), charging the same as the "premium, more-dollars-than-sense" competitor is a mistake, since they can buy the "fancy" one for the same price.

Re:Better Value

[Vectormatic]

i've said this time and time again, if you buy any product based on promises from the manufacturer on what they will update, you are a fool. You are giving them your money for stuff you might get in the future, with only the marketing meatbag saying "we'll give you want you want, honest", while the beancounters start forecasting revenue for the succesor product.

Re:Better Value

[ByOhTek]

I don't want to play with the engine, and I still prefer my Thrive to an iPad2

Similar internals, swappable battery if it goes bad (meaning I don't have to send it back), better screen, and a less abusive company (Google or Toshiba), lower price.

Of course, it has a shorter battery life, but for me, that's not a huge drawback. There's nothing about "messing with the internals" that gives it a huge desire for me. Oddly enough, if I wanted something to write programs on, or mess with the internals of, I'd go for a Windows or non-android Linux tablet.

Re:Better Value

[nathanh]

Can you fathom why FLOSS users balk at paying $100/year + $1000 one time fee for access to free software that is always $0 free as long as they STAY AWAY from Apple?

I cannot fathom why you keep avoiding the crux of the argument, which is that freedom and frugality are different goals. If you want to create Free Software on IOS devices, then you can. You just need to spend money. You don't want to spend money? Perhaps you're not the model champion of Free Software you pretend to be on /.

I predate Linux. I remember when UNIX was "Live Free or Die". Then Linux came along and it was "Spend $0 or Die". The message of freedom got diluted. The concept of open collaboration between multi-nationals was disbanded. The new generation think it's all about getting something for nothing, rather than getting freedom at any price. You miss the point.

Re:Better Value

[nathanh]

Why would i want to start out my small experiment with investing 1000 euros just to be able to program?

Why would you splash out 1000 euros on a new Mac when clearly you're comfortable with an "old thinkpad which you got for 50 bucks"?

Buy an old Mac. You can get a mini on ebay for about $200 that will run Xcode. Or buy a broken one for $50 and fix it.

Do you want to write Free Software for IOS? Nothing is stopping you, other than your aversion to spending money.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Not really. Something can be better than something else, regardless of one's desire to tinker with it or not. For example, my BMW 325 is by all accounts a better engineered vehicle than a 1972 Ford Maverick, even though the latter is more tinker-able.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Yeah, because the iPad doesn't get on the largest highway ever created...

And there are absolutely NO weather apps in the app store because Apple already has a weather app and won't let you sell your own...oh wait...

Sorry to bust your bubble, but your response isn't nearly as clever as you think.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Much of the time, changing to a different device will be easy and no problem, but there are some applications such as office documents; film editing; social networking and so on where the data you use is so specific and complex (e.g. the exact layout and fonts in the office documents) that it's almost impossible to switch to an equivalent application.

Those days are long gone. Lock in of that sort hasn't existed for a decade, except for amongst the most stubborn of users.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Less abusive company + Google...that's a great laugh for the morning!

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Most people who develop software for a profession (or hell, even a hobby), don't have the $1000 computer needed to write the code? Are you high?

My hobby is playing music. My drums total well over $10k. I can go buy a $200 Mac on Craigslist and start cranking out code for my iOS device.

The fact you think $1000 is out of the realm of a professional software developer tells me a lot about the quality of stuff you offer.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Wow. I thought such people existed only in soap operas and politics.

Yes every soap opera has an über-cheap jackass who doesn't want to spend money on anything. And in politics, we call them "Tea Partiers".

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

You must pay $99 to be able to load apps onto an iDevice with XCode. If you want to do it for free, you have to jailbreak. If you download XCode and write an app, you are limited to the simulator unless you pay.

Re:Better Value

[nathanh]

You must pay $99 to be able to load apps onto an iDevice with XCode. If you want to do it for free, you have to jailbreak. If you download XCode and write an app, you are limited to the simulator unless you pay.

You can afford a $1000 phone but can't afford $99 to write software for it? My point is proven; you're all a bunch of cheapskates complaining about the price of popcorn at the movies.

If you want to develop Free Software for IOS - remember, that's what the OP complained about, and the only point I was addressing - then the only thing stopping you is your moth-infested wallet.

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

The cheapest Mac is $599. Add in a mouse, keyboard and monitor, and you're looking at about another $100. Claiming you have to spend a grand on a Mac is just ridiculous.

And I do my iDevice development on a 2005 Macbook, so claiming that you need more power than exists in a Mac Mini is just lying.

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

I can't fathom why you would pay $1000 for a Mac just for iDevice development. At most, you need spend 70% of that amount, and you could always buy used and spend even less.

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

Even at a 1 to 1 exchange rate from dollars to euros, a brand new Mac for iOS development doesn't cost a 1000. Why do so many people here have so much hatred that they have to blatantly and obviously lie to make their point?

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

Please point us to an equivalent tablet (in features and specs) that beats the price. We'll be here all day, so take your time.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

I don't change my own oil for two reasons: if I screw it up, I'm the only one to blame, and it costs me more in supplies to change my own oil than it does to pay Jiffy Lube. Taking my car to Jiffy lube every 5-6 months, buying tires and a battery every three years, and filling it up is all car maintenance should be. If it is anything else, you are a serious hobbyist, or you are doing it wrong.

5 quarts of generic oil at wal-mart (with tax is $20). A standard oil change, plus filter at Jiffy lube is $25, and they'll dispose of the oil. Most importantly, my time is worth 10x both of those, easily.

This is the heart of the anti-Apple rant. Some of you are so stubborn that you'd rather change your own oil, even if it costs you MORE money to do so than to let somebody else dictate the steps (proper steps that work just fine, mind you) and process to change the oil. It's this mentality that the has driven the rest of us to coin the phrase, "he's so damn smart he's stupid", when it comes to talking about our software developer coworkers.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

He started his post with "the green robot with the linux brain is loose..." Did you actually expect anything after that to be factual?

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

I know I'm in the minority, but if I can't pop the lid and mess with the noodles ... it's just not for me...It wasn't designed with me in mind...

Jot this day down in history -- slashdotter discovers the world doesn't evolve around him, on August 1st, 2011.

Re:Better Value

[ByOhTek]

Apple acts as a standard monopoly, even if they don't technically have one. I'd have to say, yeah, they are more abusive than Google.

When I consider the big companies - Apple, Google, MS, Oracle, I'd have to say that Google is the only one that only moderately bothers me, rather than downright frightens me.

Re:Better Value

[Vectormatic]

Fine, i could get a mac mini at 799, but i dont use desktops anymore or a 11" MBA for 949, near enough as makes no difference 1000 euros, and god forbid if i would want to connect an extra monitor, since they havent sold anything with DVI/VGA out for ages. (so better pull out your wallet for the appropriate fucking cable)

Yes i could buy a mini, or apple could fuck off with their overpriced junk, and requiring it to run their damn IDE

Re:Better Value

[Xest]

What will Apple address? from what I can see they're only just going to be adding what Android already has- a useful task bar at the top, iTunes free activation and such. There's nothing listed that stands out, or makes up for the shortfall.

Your argument would make sense if it had any semblance of a basis in reality, but it's at the point now where Apple is actually playing catch up, not leading and pulling ahead which suggests the counter to what you're claiming will happen- that the gap will in fact widen.

I understand you may like less features (calling things like widgets garbage IS fanboyism - why would you want a full blown app for simple things like on-desktop weather display etc. - it's a distinct optional improvement with no downside), and less control, but ultimately that must become a minority viewpoint, because more and more killer apps become available through these features and this flexibility- again, Swype like keyboards being a prominent example- it's way ahead of plain old touch screen keyboards, and so it's an embarassment that iOS still doesn't offer a competitor to this. A platform can't grow and improve if it keeps itself too limited and basic which is precisely the problem iOS has if Apple wont open things up somewhat - they NEED to allow things like Swype, because many customers are going to expect that type of input as standard on smartphones, simply because it's that much better.

I agree the standards are higher in iOS apps some of the time (but definitely not all of the time), but this isn't a fault of Android itself, merely the likes of the BBC are showing distinct bias in supporting iOS over Android due to an internal preferential bias and because it has more hype. I don't think that can last though, the bigger the gap between Android and iOS penetration grows- particularly with the likes of the BBC who are publicly funded.

Re:Better Value

[improfane]

Go to your favourite search engine, type Android tablets, pick one and then buy it.

Next question?

Re:Better Value

[Pieroxy]

Point taken. And well taken !

Re:Better Value

[jawtheshark]

Luxembourg here. Haven't seen a single non-iPad device in usage "in the wild" yet. iPads? Sure, you see them. I have seen the brands you say at retailers, but that's about it. Recently an Archos for 350€ on sale. No idea what it runs. I was tempted for two minutes, but since I just bought a new laptop, I decided to let it slide. You know what products they put on sale? Those that don't sell well, especially in electronics.

Re:Better Value

[PopeRatzo]

Then you'll feel very comfortable rooting it and playing around inside.

I would be uncomfortable violating the blood oath I made to Steve Jobs when I bought the iPad, vowing never to use it for anything but consuming stuff, and never, ever, EVER to violate the sanctity of iOS.

Re:Better Value

[daid303]

You forgot step 1, buy something that runs an Apple OS. And step 2, register at apple.

I didn't do step 1, I tried step 2 when the iPhone came out so I could take a peek at the developer documentation. But step 2 failed, even after countless emails with support. So I gave up. Happy Android user here.

I made a small Android app, which isn't finished and polished. I could load it on my phone without registration. But even better, I could put the APK file online, point other people to it, and they could install it. That's more open then "yes you can load whatever you want, if you run an Apple OS, register at X, download the SDK, install the SDK, compile the source, upload it to your phone"

Re:Better Value

[Molt]

http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/ ...it's still $99/yr if you want to actually be able to deploy onto hardware and not just run it in the iOS simulator on a mac.

Re:Better Value

[GNious]

Or you pay 2-3€ more on your internet bill, and get a Galaxy Tab bundled with 3G.
Compare with €599 for an iPad2 with mobile data, it takes 200 months to get price-parity....well, more, since then you still need a 3G subscription for the iPad.

When you then also see companies offering Apps for Android, with the note that they are still waiting for approvals from Apple before they can release their Apps on iPad, I have a very hard time seeing the value of iPad.

Re:Better Value

[Dog-Cow]

Hating unreasonably is far worse than liking unreasonably. So, I'd rather be a fanboy (if I were such), than a bigoted hater like you.

Re:Better Value

[Andy Dodd]

7 inch dual core - would that be the Huawei MediaPad? That's the first 7 inch dual-core Honeycomb tablet I'm aware of, and Huawei has an awful track record when it comes to product support and GPL compliance. They also have a bad habit of releasing buggy software.

Many of the other units you are referencing such as the G Tablet are running Froyo/Gingerbread - Honeycomb DOES make a significant difference for tablets.

The Transformer at $400 seems great until you read about the quality control issues (screen bleed, hinge issues) they have been having, and also look and see that their special charge cable is not yet available from third-party sources and is unobtainium from Asus. (Or at least this was the case 2-3 weeks ago when I bought my Tab 10.1). It's actually part of Asus' stated strategy - sell the tab almost at cost and make profit on the accessories. A charger and cable is $50!!!!

Meanwhile, the Tab 10.1 is compatible with most of the original 7" Tab's accessories - as a result there are lots of third-party cables and chargers on the market, and you can even order a bare dock connector for $5 and solder up something yourself (good for those who want to do something customized, like a combo charger and USB host adapter.)

The only things I have to criticize Samsung on as far as the Tab 10.1 are:
1) They're a bit slower than other Honeycomb vendors with updates. However, unlike with phones, update release deltas seem to be weeks and not months. I think Google is forcing vendors to be timely with updates if they want to play.
2) They remove a bunch of features from their kernels which have no business being removed (such as Xbox360 pad support and Sony HID support, aka PS3 controller support)
3) They are randomly shipping them with locked bootloaders. There seems to be no pattern to locked vs. unlocked.

Re:Better Value

[heathen_01]

Most people ... && Unless you are planning on making money from an iOS app, you won't go out and buy a Mac just to allow you to put a few apps on your phone.

I believe this was the key point. Professional software developers do not enter into the argument.

Re:Better Value

[AmiMoJo]

The 90% who don't necessarily understand the technical issues will still be screwed by Apple's DRM eventually.

Sometimes they might not even realise it. Newspapers were complaining that because of the Apple tax and ban on selling inside apps they have to charge ridiculous prices for their subscription apps. The average Joe will just look at the price and decide that the newspaper is ripping them off and not buy it, but in actual fact it was Apple that screwed them.

Similarly if Apple ban a particular app most people won't hear about it, so they don't know what they are missing out on. How many people compare the cost of apps between the App Store and the Android Market either?

Of course eventually they will notice that Apple keep breaking their 3rd party charge/sync cable so they have to shell out for an official one, or that changing the battery is either expensive or difficult, or both.

Re:Better Value

[AmiMoJo]

It also prevents a lot of open source apps from getting on iOS. Development for Android is completely free so there is a much larger base of open source and freeware available. Apple probably see that as undesirable since they like all the iOS apps to meet minimum levels of polish, but inevitably it is going to block some really good apps because the developer doesn't want to pony up the cash for a developer license.

Is there an iOS simulator or do they have to buy and iOS device for development? With the Android one you can write a fully functional app at zero cost.

Re:Better Value

[heathen_01]

This is the heart of the anti-Apple rant. Some of you are so stubborn that you'd rather change your own oil, even if it costs you MORE money to do so than to let somebody else dictate the steps (proper steps that work just fine, mind you) and process to change the oil. It's this mentality that the has driven the rest of us to coin the phrase, "he's so damn smart he's stupid", when it comes to talking about our software developer coworkers.

My understanding is different than yours. Some of us want to choose who changes our oil (DIY or 3rd party) and don't want to be locked into $car_manufacturer who would likely cost us $x * %30.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

None of them frighten me. Google pisses me off because they have chosen a business model built around selling ads, and I hate ads. Society in general is much more stupid due to advertising. What I DO like about Google, and Apple, however, is an insane level of demanded excellence at all levels of everything they do. This makes society better, even if they are excellently selling ads.

Re:Better Value

[heathen_01]

You seem to be confusing jail breaking and rooting. They are not the same thing.

Re:Better Value

[Pieroxy]

Ok,let's get through Apple's website together. Starting point:

http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/

clisk: "Learn more about our developer program"
click: "Learn more" under the free program

There, you can read: "Students can test and debug their applications using Xcode’s graphical debugger, or collect real-time performance data in Instruments’ timeline view. To see their work in action and ensure proper functionality, students can install their applications directly on iPad, iPhone and iPod touch."

Emphasis mine. Three options here:
1. You're wrong
2. They lie
3. I can't read.

Re:Better Value

[BasilBrush]

And there you go. One of the retard ACs my filtering usually avoids, unmasked by his own stupidity in not clicking the post as AC box.

Re:Better Value

[sapphire wyvern]

Huh, really? I thought it included PS 1.

My bad.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Why not buy something that looks and feels like an iPad but isn't one and the answer is of course, brand loyalty/brand choice/lack of willingness to shop around/take your pick.

You forget the far better app ecosystem, as of now. I'm sure that'll change in a year or so, but as of now, the iPad has a far better library of tablet-optimized apps than Honeycomb.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

What about the software ecosystem? Price may favor the Transformer, and I'm not convinced about the specs (and as any good geek can tell you, they're not the only thing you should judge on), but the software definitely favors the iPad at this point in time. Tablet optimized apps are far more available on iOS than on Android. I'm sure given time that will change, but for now it's true.

And before you ask, tablet optimized apps are better than scaled up phone apps, mainly because they can take advantage of the hardware a tablet has to offer. They're able to make much better use of the extra screen real estate.

Re:Better Value

[VisceralLogic]

I don't change my own oil for two reasons: if I screw it up, I'm the only one to blame, and it costs me more in supplies to change my own oil than it does to pay Jiffy Lube. Taking my car to Jiffy lube every 5-6 months, buying tires and a battery every three years, and filling it up is all car maintenance should be. If it is anything else, you are a serious hobbyist, or you are doing it wrong.

I change my own oil because I don't trust the grease monkeys at Jiffy Lube not to screw up...

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

I would say a lot of your gripes about the iPad are prevalent on Android as well. The excessive use of touch, for instance, is also there on Android. The crappy searching in the Market is definitely there. And as far as the 2x hack, well Android just does that by default.

and you've got the apps they lead to which themselves are somewhat restricted as to what they're allowed to do.

Not really. Yes, there are some exceptions, but for the most part, anything you want to do on Android, you can do on iOS. Especially if you're willing to Jailbreak (which I would put as on the same level as rooting for Android phones).

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Btw, would you buy a extra large rubber bumper for your car to avoid it breaking from a slight ding or would you rather it be designed to actually withstand normal use?

If you think this is unique to Apple stuff, you're high. Or an anti-fanboy troll.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Yeah, but you have legal recourse if they do. Anecdotally, I've been taking cars to Jiffy Lube for 23 years and I've never had a problem. And they can't up-sell you to a bunch of stuff you don't need like the repair shops and dealerships do.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

You don't have any more freedom on Android in that respect; once you've bought enough apps and sunk enough money into the platform, you're effectively locked in. Sure, you can buy a few different "shells" for Android, but it's all the same stuff.

Re:Better Value

[IMightB]

Additionally, the oil and filter that Juffy Lube uses by default is the lowest quality available. If you want to go synthetic with a good filter or any variation in between, Jiffy Lube costs more. Plus I get a chance to inspect stuff under the car for any issues. Changing the oil, after you've done it a few times, takes only 15-20 minutes, even for Joe-Six pack. Also I'd like to point out that it's only worth your time if you are indeed using that time at Jiffy Lube to make money.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Can you be sure your hard work will even reach the appstore?

Yes. The evaluation criteria is freely published. Not to mention that some 95% of apps are approved within a day or two.

Stop spreading FUD regarding the Store. It's largely not what you say.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Which very much is preventing me from installing my apps on my devices.

Oh no, you're too cheap to do so. Doesn't change the fact that you still can.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Most people don't have the $1,000 or so to buy the hardware required to make use of the "free developer account.

That's their problem. If I want to release something for Windows, I still need a Windows machine to compile and test on. And, don't even start down the road of claiming that everyone who wants to release on Windows has Windows.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

No, that's a recent change. It was GCC in the beginning, and the GCC toolchain will still work.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

No, we shouldn't have to pay to get *our* software out there. We're volunteers, we are doing it out of the goodness for our hearts, why should we pay a hardware corporation to distribute open source software?

Are you trying to claim that you shouldn't have access to the dev platform to dev software? If you want to release something for Solaris, you'd still need a machine running Solaris. If you want to release something for Windows, you'll need access to a machine running Windows. This is no different.

Just because you're releasing open source software doesn't mean you shouldn't incur any costs whatsoever.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Can you fathom why FLOSS users balk at paying $100/year + $1000 one time fee for access to free software that is always $0 free as long as they STAY AWAY from Apple?

Because they're fucking cheapskates. That's what you're saying.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Why would i want to start out my small experiment with investing 1000 euros just to be able to program?

Why are you insisting that you need a new Mac, when you've obviously showed that you're perfectly fine with older hardware? Go buy a 2 year old Mac, and you'll be just fine.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

Yes i could buy a mini, or apple could fuck off with their overpriced junk, and requiring it to run their damn IDE

Oh noes! To develop for someone's platform, you have to have their platform. The injustice of it all!

Quit bitching. You have plenty of options to you. More if you drop the retarded idea that you need a brand new Mac, when obviously you're just fine with using hardware that's a couple generations out.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

As soon as you point me to the official Windows dev tools for Linux.

Re:Better Value

[improfane]

If I buy hardware I should have the right to put what software on it I want. That's what I am saying. I shouldn't have to pay for that "privilege". It's an artificial limitation with the sole purpose of monetizing a deliberate limitation.

Re:Better Value

[ganjadude]

and I believe that is the point, with android we dont HAVE to jailbreak it to get the functions we want, with iOS you do need to do it. of course to us it is trivial to jailbreak an ios device, but we shouldnt HAVE to is the point.

Re:Better Value

[ganjadude]

its not that we dont want to spend money, its just we want to spend less money that the democratic controlled congress has been spending for the past 6 to 8 years now. Its always easy to spend money that isnt yours and you wont be held accountable until after your out of office and or deceased.

Re:Better Value

[ganjadude]

exactly, to use the same filter and oil at a jiffy lube or equivalent, it would cost me 85 bucks. Doing it myself costs me around 30 bucks, and no more than 20 min of time.

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

Are you trying to claim that you shouldn't have access to the dev platform to dev software? If you want to release something for Solaris, you'd still need a machine running Solaris. If you want to release something for Windows, you'll need access to a machine running Windows. This is no different.

OK, I see...this is the same in that I want to release something for iOS, so I'll need access to a machine running Mac OS X...wait, what?!? I don't think you understand what "different" means.

On the other hand, for Android, I need access to nothing special because I can host my tool chain on pretty much any modern OS. So, assuming I already have a computer, there is no cost to develop for Android other than my time. This is not the case for iOS, which specifically requires both a Mac for development, and a yearly fee to allow deployment to real hardware.

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

Oh noes! To develop for someone's platform, you have to have their platform.

You are missing the point...he doesn't want to develop for Mac OS X...he wants to develop for iOS. I could understand requiring a iOS device to develop for iOS (at the very least to test), but you shouldn't need a specific different hardware platform to develop for a phone, especially when the phone code doesn't run natively on the other hardware platform.

In other words, since you have to emulate the phone and cross-compile, why is special hardware required to host the tool chain?

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

That's their problem. If I want to release something for Windows, I still need a Windows machine to compile and test on.

No, you only need a Windows machine to test on...you can cross-compile on other OS (like Linux running Wine).

And, don't even start down the road of claiming that everyone who wants to release on Windows has Windows.

No, but they only need it to test the final code, just like you must have an iOS device to test the iOS code, or an Android device to test the Android code. But, you don't need an Android device to compile Android code, nor are you restricted to compiling Android code on Chrome OS. On the other hand, you must have Mac OS X to compile iOS code.

Re:Better Value

[nabsltd]

Buy an old Mac. You can get a mini on ebay for about $200 that will run Xcode.

Today, maybe, but as soon as OS X Lion is required for Xcode, then you're SOL.

Meanwhile, Windows 2000, 10 year old Linux distros, or even that old Mac will allow Android development.

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

On the other hand, you must have Mac OS X to compile iOS code.

So fucking what? Do you honestly expect them to make a version of their compiler for everything out there? And are you also expecting Microsoft to make a version of the WP7 compiler that runs on everything out there?

Re:Better Value

[s73v3r]

And I fail to see why Apple should have to support their dev tools on other OSes. That's what everyone is getting their panties in a twist about; they feel that Apple should port and support their dev tools on other platforms. Which is absurd on it's face.

Re:Better Value

[Xest]

"I would say a lot of your gripes about the iPad are prevalent on Android as well. The excessive use of touch, for instance, is also there on Android. The crappy searching in the Market is definitely there."

No, I agree, but that was my point- often iOS is cited as not having these issues, it's dressed up as something perfect and flawless, but it's not- it has at least as many quirks and flaws as Android, it certainly doesn't have less as many fanboys and Apple marketing themselves make out to be the case.

But I take issue with your latter point, it's simply not true, everything from emulators, to desktop widgets, to customised components such as the vastly improved swype style keyboards. Android is simply more flexible, and yes, jailbreaking opens up these things but for many it's not an option- many people just don't want the risk that their device will be bricked one day by Apple for jailbreaking it and so forth- I do not know how Apple fans can honestly say "It just works" to "Jailbreak it if you want that" - you shouldn't have to, you don't on Android (without even having to root the device), and that's the fundamental point. Even though our iPad was free, I wont jailbreak it because I don't want the hassle of having to fix it if Apple break it with an update, or some dodgy exploit is performed against jailbroken devices that fucks it etc.

Re:Better Value

[npsimons]

But anybody with a free developer account could compile the source code for MAME for IOS (assuming it exists) into an app, sign that build with their developer certificate, then upload the binary onto their own phone.

And, why, pray tell, should I have to have a "developer account"? No, it doesn't matter that it is "free", it's just an unneccesary layer between me and my hardware. Not to mention that I can develop software for my current (non Apple) phone on any platform I please, including the phone itself.

If Apple is serious about attracting OSS devs and people who like to tinker, they should consider not putting up artificial barriers to entry.

Re:Better Value

[Dr Max]

Sorry wasn't logged in when i submitted my above comment.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

Actually you are wrong. For simplicity's sake, I avoided talking about synthetics, but my car (a Mazdaspeed 3) uses synthetic oil AND 6 quarts of oil as opposed to the regular 4-5 quarts. The synthetic+extra quart price advantage is even greater by going to quick-lube-du-jour than DIY.

Re:Better Value

[stewbacca]

You are crazy. I paid $45 last time I went to a Jiffy Lube like place. $85? You got suckered.

Besides, 5 quarts of synthetic oil at Wal-mart is $25 bucks. The filter is probably $5. That's $30 minimum cost. Then you have the oil disposal fee (which I have no idea what it runs these days, since it costs more to change your own oil). Then, as I said before, there's my time. Even if it's only 20 minutes, thats $30 of my salary. $30 plus 20 minutes of my time is already way over the cost benefit.

It is worth mentioning that it is 105 degrees every day this week in Texas. Have fun changing your oil in that weather.

Re:Better Value

[silanea]

Oh, ok. Expecting not to shell out ludicrous sums for the privilege of using a device one already shelled out a considerable sum for is balking and missing the point of freedom. Paying said ludicrous sums for said privilege - which is not a privilege but SOP in FLOSS - is somehow the true freedom. Yeah, I am so totally envious of your age of UNIX where freedom depended on the size of your wallet. Not.

Re:Better Value

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

I dunno.... it's starting to look pretty much the same to me too. They're both the process of getting root on a device that wasn't allowing you root access on.

If you disagree, then elaborate, plz?

Re:Only things that matter:

[keytohwy]

Except actual users don't, you know, give a shit about Flash. http://blogs.forbes.com/elizabethwoyke/2011/07/08/taking-the-pain-out-of-tablet-typing/?partner=yahootix From the article: The study, which polled 1,011 U.S. tablet users in June, found that typing large documents (more than 500 words) was the chief frustration among respondents, netting a 44% response. Other tablet features were also singled out as irritations, but less vehemently. Battery life, for instance, got a 36% response while “limited connectivity” earned 23%, “not enough apps available” got 19% and “no flash” 3%.

Executive summary

[CharlyFoxtrot]

If you're the kind that likes to do a lot of handwaving about openness while boring all your friends and have a 'DIY attitude' (read: lots of free time), buy the Galaxy Tab. Everyone else, stay away until they either become significantly cheaper than the iPad or Android has caught up in marketshare and polish (which, conveniently, is always 6 months from now.)

Re:Executive summary

[ColdWetDog]

Everyone else, stay away until they either become significantly cheaper than the iPad or Android has caught up in marketshare and polish (which, conveniently, is always 6 months from now.)

Or you could wait 5 years and get holographic storage.

Re:Executive summary

[gutnor]

Executive summary: unlike the rest of the iPad competitor, the Galaxy tab look like a worthy competitor, meaning 95% of everything you would do on one work well on the other. If you are an ios user and happy, buy an iPad. If you are a bit bored after so many iPhone, just buy the Galaxy tab for a change. Vice versa for Android users.

For new users, if you like tinkering, the galaxy tab is for you. Otherwise, get an iPad, to have *today* the reference tablet, or a Galaxy Tab 2 to have an old version of *tomorrow* reference tablet (Galaxy Tab 3). Unless you need flash, in that case, buy a laptop.

Re:Executive summary

[jedidiah]

...kind of depends on what you want to do with a tablet/phone and whether or not this will run afoul of Steve's vision and what the devout fanboys think you should be doing with a tablet.

More and more it becomes easier and easier to want things that the devout fanboys will call "geeky".

Re:Executive summary

[Anonymous Coward]

I own an iPad and an htc evo 3d. I find just about everything on my phone to be more polished than iOS; slicker UI, much more intuitive and less frustrating messaging system (seriously, pop ups? WTF?!). The edge that I used to give to iOS was that apps didn't crash often, while on my old phone, the original evo, they crashed all of the time. This is no longer the case.

Re:Executive summary

[vlm]

Everyone else, stay away until they either become significantly cheaper than the iPad or Android has caught up in marketshare and polish (which, conveniently, is always 6 months from now.

6 months from now, when the androids can finally compete head to head with the ipad2, and all the early adopters have expired after being shot in the back with arrows, I'm sure sales against the ipad3 with retina display or whatever its supposed to have will be ... once again, not so brisk; but I promise once again, in just 6 more months, we'll have an Ipad3-killer android tablet ... ready by the rollout of the ipad4...

Re:Executive summary

[jo_ham]

It's one or the other - if you want to claim they have the polish *and* and marketshare, then you are dreaming.

There are some really awesome Android handsets that are more than a match for the iPhone. These don't make up the majority of the Android market share though - that distinction belongs to the cheaper "built to a budget" phones that can also run Android. I've seen several of these handsets too (and used them) and they are nowhere near the polish of an iPhone (or their much better Android cousins).

So, it is more accurate to say "Android has swelled its marketshare by going after part of the market that Apple has no interest in - cheap, crappy smartphones - while also having some genuine iPhone equivalents". You can't simply say that have "overtaken iPhones in marketshare and polish".

There are some features of Android that I'd love to have on iOS, and funnily enough, they weren't features that the cheap Android phones I've used have had on them either. Other than that, by far the biggest downer on the cheap ones is the quality of the screen and the quality of the touch response.

Of course manufacturers can make something equivalent to the iPad 2 "within a year" - they just can't make it cheaper than Apple, which has been the rub. Everyone automatically assumed that Apple was slapping a giant markup on the iPad and making hay while the sun shined. The number of "just you wait for the Android tablets at half the price with better features! any day now! any day! next month!" posts that we saw on slashdot and other sites during the iPad 1's unchallenged reign was remarkable. The closest we really got was the Xoom, which, funnily enough, cost pretty much the same as the iPad. What they were hoping for was to be able to get some sales going because the Xoom was better than the iPad 1, but Apple went ahead and one-upped them and released the iPad 2 at the same time and for the same price as the first one and the Xoom is dead in the water. It didn;t help that they rushed it to market too quickly because of the impending iPad 2 and shipped it with some of the much lauded "essential missing features" of the iPad not working at all (SD reader, Flash, usb).

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

These don't make up the majority of the Android market share though

Can you cite that? The only lists I can find of top-selling Android phones are almost completely dominated by the "super phones", i.e., Evo 4G, Motorola Droid, Galaxy S. The crap Android phones seem to be far outsold by the good ones. Which kind of blows a hole all through your long-winded theory here.

Re:Executive summary

[jo_ham]

I have no cite, only my personal experience. Perhaps I just know some very cheap people but I have only run into two people with awesome Android phones, and about 10 or 15 people with really poor ones. Three of those have said they hate it and will be switching to a new phone as soon as possible. One of those has and got an iPhone 4, the other two are still in contract and are considering more expensive Android phones since they like the OS.

I always ask to try out friends' phones if the opportunity arises for these very discussions, so I can get a feel for exactly what is going on (I can hardly be critical of something in detail that I have not personally tried, nor can I see the shortcomings of my own phone if I don't see what else is available).

The cheap Android phones seem to be outselling their expensive cousins because of that reason: people want a smartphone since they have seen this whole "iPhone thing" and then balk at the price, then see what look to be equivalent smartphones for much less, only to be disappointed. They are not the sort of people looking at the really nice android phones that match the iPhone. Those who buy those tend to be the very specific clued in consumer who has decided that what the iPhone offers is not for them.

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

I have no cite

That's what I thought. Here's Amazon's best seller list in post-paid cell phones. Notice the list is dominated by high-end Android handsets. Here's an article from a while back showing the same thing.

Your personal experience means squat and it would be great (and make for a more honest dialog) if you wouldn't pretend like it does.

Re:Executive summary

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Or if you refuse to indoctrinate yourself into the Cult of Apple.

Heh. The righteous shalt chooseth Google.

Re:Executive summary

[stormj]

Everyone else is always in a cult. It couldn't be that different people like different systems... for valid reasons.... could it? I personally like my iPad and can see why a lot of others would too. I don't think people who want a tab are broken or stupid or evil. I just worry that reviews that are always grading Apple's competition on a curve will result in more people unhappy with what they get because it wasn't the iPad killer they thought it was. But if they like it in the end, so what to you and me?

Re:Executive summary

[jo_ham]

So who's buying them, or is that list skewed by people who buy phones online, and not via a carrier store?

My personal experience of seeing actual phones in the wild is the opposite. I think I've seen one Incredible.

Re:Executive summary

[Anonymous Coward]

That's amazon's list. Try something a little more accurate.

http://newstonight.net/content/apple-bests-nokia-and-samsung-q2-worldwide-smartphone-sales

20 percent of the worlds smartphones in the last quarter were Apple phones. Looks like you shouldn't pretend a list of Amazon's best sellers represents worldwide sales totals. That might make for a more honest dialog.

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

So if you don't have iPhones to sell (or at least compare in the list) it's kinda hard to make any comparative claims.

Um, do you know what the word context means? I was replying to someone that said most Android phones in consumer hands were cheap models. The point I was making has absolutely nothing to do with how well Android and iPhones sell vis a vis. O_o

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

If you have a more authoritative source, bring it on. Amazon is a very mainstream site and is credible.

Re:Executive summary

[jo_ham]

You're getting very defensive - "your opinion doesn't mean squat", "bring it on" - I'm not personally attacking Android here, I am offering my experiences. That list is for US sales - perhaps it is different in the UK? (I just looked on Amazon's UK site, and they don't seem to have an equivalent UK list for mobile phones). The majority of phones here are purchased in high street stores, which may suggest the reason for the differences.

In fact, I would wager it's exactly that issue:

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/38347/ios-massively-outshines-android-europe (Feb 2011 data) - android is growng in the UK (12% market share compared to iOS at 42%), but it's the cheaper handsets I'm seeing, although another search shows that of the top ten best selling phones in the UK as of this month, the HTC Desire is number 1, so perhaps we are just delayed in getting decent handsets? The iPhone and Blackberry are still king here - it seems if you don't want an iPhone but are still willing to spend you get a BB instead of an Android, but perhaps that will change (BB has been declining since November).

Re:Executive summary

[exomondo]

So who's buying them, or is that list skewed by people who buy phones online, and not via a carrier store?

My personal experience of seeing actual phones in the wild is the opposite. I think I've seen one Incredible.

Oh come on, are you seriously refuting statistical evidence with anecdotal evidence or are you just being obtuse?

Re:Executive summary

[jo_ham]

Given that his "statistical evidence" is the top 10 bestselling phones on Amazon in the USA only, and what we're talking about is my experience of the UK market, then "yes", in this case. He's attempting to refute my anecdotal experiences with data from a market that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Apparently the "HTC Droid Incredible 2 on Verizon" is the top selling phone! I wonder why I haven;t seen any of those in my day to day life? Could it be that Verizon is a USA-exclusive carrier, and that phone is not available here on any carrier? Nah! He cited evidence! It must just be my faulty experiences!

I already linked to an article that breaks down iOS/Blackberry/Android marketshares in the UK (and europe as a whole) - Android is 12% here, mostly due to cheap Android phones that are available on considerably cheaper contracts than iPhones (and until recently, Blackberries, but since they have been in steady decline facing the rise of Android, there are now some very cheap BB deals).

I also posted that, after searching, the current best selling phone in the UK this week is the HTC Desire - likely because it is almost as good as an iPhone for many people and you can get it on a cheap contract.

Re:Executive summary

[exomondo]

Given that his "statistical evidence" is the top 10 bestselling phones on Amazon in the USA only, and what we're talking about is my experience of the UK market, then "yes", in this case.

Well do you actually have any evidence then? (we all know anecdotal evidence isn't worth anything)

mostly due to cheap Android phones that are available

Again is this just anecdotal or do you have some evidence? Anyone could come along and say the opposite and it cancels out your entire argument. I'm not saying you're wrong but you'd have to be a complete idiot to accept anything based on anecdotal evidence alone.

Re:Executive summary

[shmlco]

"... seriously, pop ups? WTF?!"

iOS 5. Two months.

Both sides can play "your problem will be fixed in the next version of Android/iOS" game.

Re:Executive summary

[shmlco]

It's probably safe to say that Amazon's numbers aren't carrier numbers.

Re:Executive summary

[CharlyFoxtrot]

For new users, if you like tinkering, the galaxy tab is for you. Otherwise, get an iPad, to have *today* the reference tablet, or a Galaxy Tab 2 to have an old version of *tomorrow* reference tablet (Galaxy Tab 3). Unless you need flash, in that case, buy a laptop.

I think the problem there is that the people buying tablets, certainly the people buying iPads, buy them expressly because they do not want to tinker. Who wants to wrestle another device, another interface ? Ease of use is the primary selling point, not the specs which are again uselessly quoted in TFA.

Re:Executive summary

[CharlyFoxtrot]

...kind of depends on what you want to do with a tablet/phone and whether or not this will run afoul of Steve's vision and what the devout fanboys think you should be doing with a tablet.

More and more it becomes easier and easier to want things that the devout fanboys will call "geeky".

Sure they could go after those people, but that's what you might call a niche market. I don't see Samsung doing that though, it looks like they are trying to beat the iPad at its own game which is a losing proposition. That's probably why the article speculates if they could beat the iPad on price. Frankly I think if Samsung could do that they would've done so already.

Re:Executive summary

[blind monkey 3]

That's amazon's list. Try something a little more accurate.

http://newstonight.net/content/apple-bests-nokia-and-samsung-q2-worldwide-smartphone-sales

20 percent of the worlds smartphones in the last quarter were Apple phones. Looks like you shouldn't pretend a list of Amazon's best sellers represents worldwide sales totals. That might make for a more honest dialog.

Apples and oranges (excuse the pun). That article is talking about shipments, this is not a figure on actual sales - doesn't mean they weren't all sold but it also doesn't mean they were.
To be honest, I think this all feels like a scene from the Life Of Brian - "It's the gourd!" "No - It's the sandal!".
Regardless of who is better than who, the standard of mobile phones has improved immensely - let's hope the trend continues.

Re:Executive summary

[JAlexoi]

Today Galaxy Tab 10.1 is lacking only in software(for your average Joe). iPad3 will bring iOS5(if you're lucky), definitely not iOS6, and we know what iOS5 brings...
Android has an issue with polish and apps today. That is where iPad leads.
I will go for the utilitarian ThinkPad, rather than Galaxy Tab.

Re:Executive summary

[syockit]

Do you realize what that amazon's list was supposed to be about?

There are some really awesome Android handsets that are more than a match for the iPhone. These don't make up the majority of the Android market share though

And so the list was posted to prove otherwise. Then suddenly you come out of nowhere with a link that has nothing to do with the above. What the heck is wrong with you?

Re:Executive summary

[stewbacca]

So people who prefer to shop online for tech products are more likely to buy high end tech gadgets. What a concept! Your picking and choosing which sales report to cite is just as weak as his lack of citation.

Now if anybody has the complete picture of what kind of android phones are purchased, that would be informative. I'm gonna guess that the $50-$100 ones easily outsell the high end Galaxy S and the like.

Re:Executive summary

[stewbacca]

God forbid you bring personal experience to a discussion forum--especially slashdot!

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

I'm gonna guess

Thank you for your worthless input.

Re:Executive summary

[stewbacca]

Yeah, thanks for hanging out on a forum and not contributing anything that doesn't pass Ivy League College citation requirements.

Last I checked, this is an informal place to discuss technology stuff. If you don't like my ideas or the other guy, feel free to disagree. I won't even give you grief or drop a "citation" penis size comparo on you if you don't give a citation in the process.

Re:Executive summary

[oakgrove]

Look, I'm not trying to be a dick but the original guy I responded made the statement that in his personal experience most Android phones in consumer hands were low end. If he'd stopped there, I wouldn't have had a beef. But he didn't; he went on to paint this entire picture based on that observation as if he had a clue of what he was talking about. In my experience, most Android phones are more upmarket. I don't have a definitive answer in front of me so I went and had a look. Instead of just being lazy I checked Google, Amazon, etc. and at least came back with something unlike the other guy. As an aside, I'd actually like to know the answer to the question. I'd like to know the market share of wp7 but everything I see always lumps it in with windows mobile. Worthless.

Re:Executive summary

[PipsqueakOnAP133]

No doubt Amazon is very mainstream... but I highly doubt that a significant number of people buy their cell phones from Amazon.

To put it bluntly, I might not be the most popular guy in the world, but in the last 10 years, I don't think I've ever heard of even an acquaintance who bought their phone off Amazon.com. (And I've talked with enough people about phones to even know a person who bought an android phone off some used phone swapping site that seemed kinda shady but still worked out.)

Greater ability to adapt...

[SuperKendall]

I disagree the Android tablet has a greater ability to adapt. Most standards that would emerge would be well supported by a very robust application space, sooner than any Android tablet. You want a cloud file management app? Here's 20 on an iPad.

Re:Greater ability to adapt...

[node 3]

It also leaves unclear what "new technologies and standards" they are referring to. This is really just a vague claim meant to provide some sort of "balance" in the review.

Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

Every Android vs iPad review, summed up:

"The iPad is the best product, hands down, but if you don't mind dealing with a bunch of issues, the Android tablet is a strong contender."

It's like all reviewers need a horse race, and will bend over backwards to try to say nice things about the Android tablets. Do you think they'd do the same if the tables were reversed?

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

What the hell are you talking about? DeviceGuru is a Mac magazine?

Why not take your own advice, and broaden your horizons? Android is getting its ass handed to it in the tablet space.

But here on slashdot, apparently it's easier to just say things like "Cult of Apple" or "fanboy", than to actually make arguments based on reality.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

I just like poking the Apple fanbois. They've got so much bullshit stuffed up their asses it's hard not to.

In other words, you're just a troll.

And I wouldn't worry too much about Android in the tablet space. It's getting "clobbered" cause those not enthralled by Stevie J know when something isn't worth buying. Unlike Apple users who will buy anything and everything Apple sells without so much as a single nano-thought.

In other words, anyone who likes what you don't like are stupid.

Tablets are DOA devices.

Reality contradicts this claim.

The fact that Apple sells so many only underscores how braindead people like you are.

Back to the "everyone who doesn't share my opinion is stupid" line.

Tablets will either transform into something useful or will die out quickly. And then where will the iPad be? In landfills with all the other old and useless Apple equipment that cost too much and did too little (other than make you look cool to your friends and co-workers).

And a combination of ignoring reality and everyone not like me is stupid.

All you need as proof is the smartphone market, where Android has busted a dozen caps into Apple's ass.

The handset market is the *one* market where Android and iOS overlap which is significantly influenced by factors external to OS choice. Carrier choice, plans, prices all have a significant impact.

So, the one and only market which you can cite as "proof" just so happens to be the one and only market where Android and iOS don't directly compete without external influences. Bravo!

Also, your "proof" ignores much more relevant proof, which is the *actual* sales numbers of iPads vs Android tablets.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[SuperKendall]

I just like poking the Apple fanbois. They've got so much bullshit stuffed up their asses it's hard not to.

Yes, we call you haters, and your focus on asses is very easy to detect since you always come off as one.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[1155]

So the article linked to in the story here is an apple fanboy site? I just read it and it didn't seem that way to me. More like an android fanboy reviewing an android device trying to like it and yet having to come clean about some problems. But still saying it's better.

I've not used either an ipad or any of the android devices, but I'm pretty interested in buying one within the next year. The problem is that every time I read about the android devices on the android fanboy websites, there are always some apologies about the android device and the android device still wins. On the ipad fanboy sites, the ipad fanboys actually say what the problems are and do not sugar coat things as much, but the ipad still comes out on top.

The problem is that once you get past the "hey it can run flash!" portion, I don't know which is actually any better. I tried the hp tablet the other day and kind of liked it, but then it had weirdness all around it too. Is android the same? Is the ipad? No review on this really just answers the question that I can find.

"Branch out a bit" seems to be a typical response from both sides. It's really just a defensive reflex from someone who really loves (and probably rightfully so) their chosen platform that they chose to invest in.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[BasilBrush]

I just like poking the Apple fanbois.

Given your username, that's not surprising anybody.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they grade Apple on a curve.

When no one had Macs, marketshare was proof that Macs were inferior. Now that everyone has i-Devices, marketshare is proof that the owners are sheep.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[stephanruby]

What are you implying? That the Samsung Tab 10.1 is all bad?

You may not seem to like this, but the Samsung Tab 10.1 is a strong contender (to the big iPhone lookalike). For some people with expensive existing music collections/movie collections (that predate iTunes or that were not gotten through iTunes), an Android tablet is really the only option they have. To a consumer, it's not a question of freedom, they rarely care about that, it's really a question of being able to play the stuff they already paid for.

Not only that, but the Samsung Tab is lighter and feels better in your hands than the iPad 2, and has the ability to turn off the auto-screen rotation (not just on an application basis, but on the entire device, this is useful when you're using it while laying in bed). And unlike the iPad 2, the Honeycomb version of Android was designed with the size of the larger screen in mind. Haven't you noticed that the screen icons of the iPad 2 are far too spread apart than they really need to be? And don't get me started on multi-tasking which the iOS still hasn't gotten right (despite their claims to the contrary).

And if you happen to own an hdmi-enabled television/flat screen, the next best choice is probably the Xoom, not the iPad2 (which tries to control everything you try to video-out). With a Xoom, you can mirror anything you have on your screen, you can play games on the big screen, you can play your music collection/movie collection through it. You can do anything through it. This is a huge plus for my friends. With the iPad 2, the only way it will allow you to play a movie through to a bigger screen is only if you purchase the movie through iTunes (it won't even allow your netflix streaming to go through to a bigger screen unless you're willing to purchase that same movie a second time).

So like I said, the Samsung Tab is a strong contender, and even the Xoom (in some areas). And unless Apple loosens up the control it holds over everything you do on your iPad, it's leaving huge openings for Android-based tablets to sweep in and take over some of the Market.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[SmittyTheBold]

Some people need to have their hand held when using gadgets. Those people need Apple to hold them close and assure them that as long as the money flows all will be okay and Apple will protect them from the big bad world out there.

Could you be a more condescending twat? I can hear the arrogance over here.

What I find funniest about your statement is the idea "as long as the money flows...Apple will protect" you, implying that Android is the key to having software support for a much longer period of time. In reality, many Android device manufacturers have seen fit to stop releasing software updates as soon as the stop selling the hardware. It's a huge factor in the crazy-wide distribution of version numbers in use. And Cyanogen doesn't really count; if you're going to run the Android equivalent of jailbreak apps you need to be intellectually honest.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

Yeah, you don't really get it. The only reason Apple sells any significant quantity of tablets is because Apple fanbois have a pathological need to buy anything with a fruit logo on it.

The rest of us aren't buying Android tablets because there is no practical use for them to justify the price. So Apple sells more overpriced limited-use devices than anyone else. Whoopee. All it means is that the sheeple will literally buy anything that Jobs tells them to, whether they need it or not or even if it's useful or not. I don't think that's something to be proud of, but keep on crowing...

tl;dr: reality, who needs it?

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

You are 100% incorrect about HDMI mirroring on the iPad 2.

As for any existing Android tablet as being a "strong contender", that flies in the face of reality. You are making a theoretical claim (for example, that the Tab feels better, or that icon spacing on the iPad is a problem, etc.). This is all well and good, but the fact is that the iPad is outselling all Android tablets by a very wide margin, so clearly these aspects which you claim make the Android tablets "strong contenders", in reality, don't.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Antisyzygy]

Said like a true Apple fanboy.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[kangsterizer]

To be fair the iPad 2 also let you lock orientation device wide. In fact it let you bind the lock button for that task and its very handy.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Solandri]

Every Android vs iPad review, summed up:

"The iPad is the best product, hands down, but if you don't mind dealing with a bunch of issues, the Android tablet is a strong contender."

There's a simple reason for that. When Apple released the iPad, they cut a lot of deals with major publishing companies to release electronic publications for the iPad. The iPad was going to be the messiah which led the paper-bound publishing industry to the promised land of DRM-locked electronic content distribution. The publishing companies have every reason to want the iPad to succeed and open, easily hackable platforms like Android tablets to fail.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[whoop]

So, the one and only market which you can cite as "proof" just so happens to be the one and only market where Android and iOS don't directly compete without external influences. Bravo!
I think the Android/Iphone phone sales will be a major indicator towards tablet sales in the next couple years. People are buying these smart phones in droves, and porting your apps (especially purchased ones) to the same tablet OS will be key.

Apple chose only one carrier (here in the US) for so many years, and it stopped them from completely dominating the market. They will have a lot to lose as tablet prices come down and Android phones sell more and more on every carrier.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[R3d M3rcury]

[...] the fact is that the iPad is outselling all Android tablets by a very wide margin [...]

Yeah. And Mac OS X is not a strong contender, either. There's no way it can succeed--Windows outsells it 10:1. Windows must be better than Mac OS X.

Or, to put it another way, EAT SHIT: 10,000,0000 flies can't be wrong.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[stephanruby]

Isn't this what I said? "(not just on an application basis, but on the entire device, this is useful when you're using it while laying in bed)." I already knew that the iPad could let you lock the screen on an application basis. Do you think this goes far enough? Don't you switch task/applications once in a while?

Also, are you saying that you can only lock it in landscape mode, not in portrait mode? If true, that's got to be super annoying too. I don't think I'd ever be able to read most of my manga collection in bed if I could never lock it in portrait mode.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Anonymous Coward]

> this is useful when you're using it while laying in bed

What do you lay in bed? Eggs?

What is it with US folk and their inability to distinguish LAY and LIE?

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[stephanruby]

You are 100% incorrect about HDMI mirroring on the iPad 2.

You're right. I just did some research, and I stand corrected. I had no idea this had changed.

Apparently, Steve Jobs credits teachers for pushing Apple to backtrack on the previous hdmi-drm scheme.

But really? Do you really think it's the teachers that changed his mind? Or was it the fact that some Android phones were coming out with no DRM on their hdmi connection?

And yes, that last statement is another "theoretical claim" on my part. I actually have no way to know what was in Steve Jobs mind at the time. For all I know, Steve Jobs doesn't consider the android tablet a strong contender either

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[stephanruby]

You are 100% incorrect about HDMI mirroring on the iPad 2.

You're right. I just did some research, and I stand corrected. I had no idea this had changed.

Apparently, Steve Jobs credits teachers for pushing Apple to backtrack on the previous hdmi-drm scheme.

But really? Do you really think it's the teachers that changed his mind? Or was it the fact that some Android phones were coming out with no DRM on their hdmi connection?

And yes, that last statement is another "theoretical claim" on my part. I actually have no way to know what was in Steve Jobs mind at the time. For all I know, Steve Jobs doesn't consider the android tablet a strong contender either

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[borum]

The lock button works on 'device level' and works in all four orientations.

Seriously; are you making things up?

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[node 3]

I never heard that claim, but it makes a lot of sense. Apple doesn't do things, like so many Slashdotters seem to think, to control or limit people. The lack of HDMI mirroring makes sense from the point of view that on the iPad, you directly interact with the screen, and you don't directly interact with a TV screen.

So having a separate HDMI-out stream makes a lot of sense. Video can play without all the fluff, Keynote presentations can be played with all the cards visible only on the iPad, etc. But teachers especially will want to be able to show exactly what they are seeing (like with overhead projectors and notebook computers), so that plea would have a strong impact on Apple and Jobs.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Pieroxy]

Isn't this what I said?

No. Go and re-read your own post. You said the Tab has the ability to lock orientation.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Carewolf]

Could you be a more condescending twat? I can hear the arrogance over here.

Being arrogant and condescending towards Apple users is a higher form of irony.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[CProgrammer98]

why would it only lock in landscape? that would be dumber than a dumb thing that's really dumb.

Of course you can lock the iPad (original or 2) into either portrait or landscape. You can configure the slider switch to be either your mute button or your orientation lock button (you can still mute by holding the volume down button for a second)

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[dsrg]

Do you think they'd do the same if the tables were reversed?

No, but perhaps if the tablets were.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Dog-Cow]

Considering that just about 100% of what he wrote about the iPad 2 was wrong, I'd say he was too busy hating with out reason to worry about grammar.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Narnie]

Lying in bed is when you're telling your wife that there is a perfectly good and innocent reason why you and your secretary are naked and in bed together.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[Just Some Guy]

For some people with expensive existing music collections/movie collections (that predate iTunes or that were not gotten through iTunes), an Android tablet is really the only option they have. To a consumer, it's not a question of freedom, they rarely care about that, it's really a question of being able to play the stuff they already paid for.

WTF are you talking about about? I have a huge collection of MP3s from ripped CDs. They import to iTunes (and from their to iOS devices) just fine. I use Handbrake to transcode movies to the Apple -> iPhone 4 preset just because it makes no sense to carry around Blu-Ray quality files on a tiny device. So, what media that predates iTunes or that were not gotten through iTunes are you thinking I'm missing out on?

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[SmittyTheBold]

If we look at the closest existing Android phone to the iPhone 3G, it lost Cyanogen support around the same time Apple dropped the iPhone 3G. The G1 lost "official" support far earlier, at Android 1.6. Look at my link in the post you replied to about what versions people are actually running in their Android phones. The number that are stuck on 2.1 is a little lame. The glut held back to 2.2 is a flat-out embarrassment. I'd one to see a counter-argument supported with facts, but as far as I can see, Android users can rely on being abandoned by the OEM within two years of release in most (all?) cases. Apple, on the other hand, has supported a given phone for at least three years from release.

Re:Every Android vs iPad review...

[de_smudger]

> For some people with expensive existing music collections/movie collections (that predate iTunes or that were not gotten through iTunes), an Android tablet is really the only option they have.

Perhaps I'm feeding a troll here but would you care to explain why? If you've heard or read somewhere that the iDevices can't play mp3s purchased outside of iTunes then I guess you'll be pleased to hear that's entirely incorrect - or are you referring to some proprietary music/DRM format available only on Android?

Even Android reviews lack polish!!

[SuperKendall]

From early in the Gripes list:

Occasionally, view orientation momentarily switches back/forth between portrait and landscape modes for no apparent reason; only happens when it's on its stand, slightly reclined.

Then a little later on in the same list:

The device occasionally switches between landscape and portrait modes for no reason, when operated on stand (a setting can lock it, however).

I guess it was really annoying to list it twice!

Re:Even Android reviews lack polish!!

[cyberchondriac]

I noticed that too. So really he only had 9 gripes about the Galaxy.
The review lacked polish elsewhere too; I know it's nitpicky, but it threw me for a sec where he meant to type "lessens" and spelled it, "lessons", as in, ("It’s a more efficient use of home screen real estate, and it lessons the need for scrolling among multiple screens to locate a desired app" (or he was trying to say it teaches the user of the need to scroll among multiple screens!...naah).
The comparison to the iPad2 itself doesn't interest me all that much, as any comparison between an Apple product and a non-Apple product usually breaks down to an argument between tighter manufacturing and development control vs. decreased restrictions and more flexibility, just like the ancient Mac vs. PC debate. Same ol' same ol'.
I'd just wanted to know what it could do, I'd be happy if I could afford either tablet, at this point, but that's not happening anytime soon.

Galaxy Tab 10.1 owner here

[Necroman]

Disclaimer: I got my galaxy tab for free, so I have a little extra love for it.

I've been using the tablet for a couple months now and I'm pretty happy with it. Since the Android 3.1 update came out, it fixed a lot of the initial software issues I had with the device. My biggest annoyance is the lack of Netflix support. But overall, it's been great for web browsing and standard tablet activities.

Pros:

• Flash support. (could be listed as a con also, due to flash advertisements and focus stealing issues).
• A more open app store. For example, I wanted an app that showed wireless AP strength. Android has some nice apps for it, the iPhone does not since the APIs on the iphone/ipad are private.
• Choice of web browser and mail app. You get popups like on windows saying "which app do you want to open this in".

Cons:

• Android devices vary quite a bit from one another in both firmware version of device configuration. This causes apps to not always behave properly on your device, or not be supported yet (skype and netflix).

In the deeper parts of the device I'm sure I could find complaints, but as a web browser/email client and occasionally playing games on it, my Galaxy Tab 10.1 has been a good experience (again, since 3.1 came out).

The 3.0 firmware that was originally on the Tab was really buggy. I had lots of rendering errors when visiting various websites (Google News was a big offender). but they fixed all my major issues since then.

Re:Galaxy Tab 10.1 owner here

[yeshuawatso]

Where the hell are you getting free Xooms from?

Re:Galaxy Tab 10.1 owner here

[ArsonSmith]

The xoom plays netflix just fine now with version 1.3 that recently came out. I wouldn't doubt the g-tab would work as well.

You do have to download it and side load as it doesn't show up in the market yet.

Re:Galaxy Tab 10.1 owner here

[kangsterizer]

iPad 2 owner here - did not get it for free. Sold it today.
Had iOS 4.3.3 +JB, and iOS 5 up to beta 4 as a dev.

All in all it's a nice device, does what it says. Screen is ok, weight is ok, battery life is ok. But it's just not enough for me.

I could list all of it's short comings vs Android and there's quite a few, although it has its pros too. But at the end of the day I use it to play videos, sometimes a game or one of the few good apps (such as garageband) and that's that. I prefer to take my phone or the laptop for all other tasks, even reading news.

Re:Only things that matter:

[cyber-vandal]

If units sold means a better product then Britney Spears is one of the best musicians in the world.

I ditched my iPad for Android

[Sarusa]

I've had an iPad since the day it launched. And I do like the hardware and I prefer the screen ratio to the Android tablet widescreen - the page size is better for reading magazines and comics.

Then Woot had a sale on refurbed XOOMs and I bought one. Imagine, I can just plug it in with mini-USB and transfer files or SSH them over wifi. I can replace the soft keyboard with a better one. I can have mail on my 'desktop'. Basically, there's very little I can't control, especially with Tasker. The screen on the XOOM is not quite as good as the iPad's in sunlight, and of course the iPad has a far better game selection, but I don't think I can go back at this point. So since I think the Tab 10.1 is better hardware than the XOOM except for that stupid proprietary cable that'd be even better.

My biggest regret is that I could only delete iTunes from my computer and not skull@#$ it till it died, since that's what I feel like it was doing to me every time I was forced to use it.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

What do you transfer files for? Serious question, because one of the greatest things Apple has done with the iPad is get rid of the antiquated concept of the file system. Obviously, iOS is a work in progress, but I can't see why I'd want to put files on a tablet computer a year from now.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[Sarusa]

The serious answer is for putting music on, putting reading material on, and putting photos on for slideshows. I have far too much music to fit on any tablet and there's only about 10 CDs I want to listen to at any given time, so I just copy the artist/[year]_album directory over or delete it.Then there's scanslated manga, which comes in zips or rars, or pdfs of books like 'Machine of Death'. Copy those over, delete when read. I realize some people love iTunes to death for this, but since I'm well organized it's much easier to just sling directories around. You can use Dropbox on the iPad as well for auto-sync, but it's a pain in the ass to get it the content into the right app.

Magazines are handled by Zinio on iPad or Android, so no need for transfer there.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[manekineko2]

How does the iPad get around the concept of the file system? (serious question, I really would like to know)

For example, if I download an image in my web browser, how do I select it in image editing software, and then take the result and email it to my friend in my email software?

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[cathector]

i'm not sure i understand the theory here; files seem like a good thing.

i agree that relieving the user of the burdens of file-management as much as possible is good,
but i think our OSs need to preserve the concept that they need to support 'documents' of unanticipated types
which multiple unanticipated apps can work with. .. which sounds like files to me.

or are you suggesting that we still have a filesystem, it's just not on the device ?

or perhaps another clarifying question is: how does the "camera roll" in iOS differ from a file system
that only supports a particular set of filetypes ?

fwiw,
i develop in my free time for iOS, but the only thing i use my iPad for is development and occasional browsing.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[brunes69]

You should switch to a TF-101, it is the same price as the Xoom but has an IPS display like the iPad.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

What I mean is, you should never need to resort to having to deal with the file system, which is basically like a manual sync. At least not on a stream-lined device like a tablet. I understand the problem of unanticipated document types, but have you got an example of how that is a problem in practice? If you don't yet have an application installed to make use of a type of document, then why is it so important to be able to upload the file to the device before you install the app to deal with it? It's a problem that "power users" might face, for sure. But if you're a power user, you probably still frequently use a desktop OS, not matter how much you use your tablet.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[windwalkr]

At the point of download, you have the choice of:

* Downloading it to your photo roll.
* Copying it to the clipboard.
* Emailing it.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I look at it this way: iTunes does what I'd normally do with a file system, and more. Such as keeping smart playlists if you're limited on space. Sure, you could write a script to do that, but I'd rather use the existing script tailored specifically for that purpose that is iTunes. I guess if you're on Linux, it's another story. And also understandable if you have to use iTunes on Windows. But that is more to do with the availability and quality of iTunes than filesystem vs dedicated music manager.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[xigxag]

You have to transfer files on an iPad as well. But there is no convenient way to acess those files once on the tablet. For example, assume you have a large video on your iPad in your Videos app. Later on, someone releases subtitles for it. You can't just load the external subs, because they don't play in Videos. You'd like to just play the same video in another app that displays subs, but you can't. You have to retransfer the entire video into another app that will display subtitles. And if it turns out the video doesn't play well in that app, you then have to load the whole thing again, or send a copy of the file to another app. You wind up with two or three copies of the same file. IOW, of course there is a filesystem, but it is severely gimped in userland. Apple, to its credit, has a history of sometimes giving in on pointless restrictions. It belatedly acknowledged that people did want folders and multitasking after all. So, perhaps in a year, accelerating the trend away from the iPad needing a host computer, there will be a universal default "open with" method of accessing files from multiple apps, as opposed to the current kludges and ad hoc methods.

Also, in general, "I can't see why X...", as an argument, only betrays a failure of imagination or empathy in the speaker. Better to explain why X is not a good idea, or why not-X is a good idea.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[cathector]

by 'unanticipated' i meant unanticipated by the OS-maker.

the use case i think is important is having multiple apps able to work with a given document type.
ie, having documents not belong to specific apps.
maybe that's already provided for in iOS.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[karnal]

I have an iPad - and having to plug the thing into a PC to "sync" it to move files is ridiculous given that it has wifi. Granted, it would be a little more of a task for Apple to do wireless synching - perhaps even just having the host PC turned on and listening to broadcasts - but it could be done.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

My understanding of iCloud is that developers are able to create the same syncing abilities as Apple's apps. So it shouldn't matter if there is a file type that Apple hasn't anticipated. As for multiple apps for the same document, I'm not too sure. I think the idea is more to send a document between apps. I remember seeing something about document management and it seemed much improved in iOS 5, but I can't find it.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Why upload the video onto the device if you don't yet have the subtitles?

Apple never gave in to anyone with regards to folders and multitasking. I'm sure it was on their road map right from the start. And I'm sure they'll improve the way iOS handles documents, but they won't be introducing the Finder for iOS to do it.

Also, in general, "I can't see why X...", as an argument, only betrays a failure of imagination or empathy in the speaker. Better to explain why X is not a good idea, or why not-X is a good idea.

Or perhaps I just imagine things differently.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[MidnightBrewer]

So basically if you're someone who likes to hack and tweak your tablet six ways from Sunday, get an Android tablet. Pretty appropriate for the Slashdot crowd. Do you like Linux, too? (Serious question, not derisive).

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[Dog-Cow]

iOS 5.

And yes, it sucks that it's taken this long to get it, but at least it's correctable in software.

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[karnal]

Cool; learn something new every day.

Slashdot - fix your site; I'm just trying to reply; what good does it do to force the reply part down off the screen every time I click in the box (and my cursor out of the box while you're at it?)

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[Dog-Cow]

As an iOS developer, I can tell you that document (file) handling on iOS sucks. Unconditionally sucks. There are zero upsides to it at all. Well, no upsides that can not be mimicked some other way that doesn't leave it sucking. What Xigxag wrote is entirely correct. Files only live within the confines of a single app. With very exceptions (and all them Apple-provided), one app can not see another's files.

(It happens to be that apps can see video that is available to Apple's player, so it may be that his example is not the best choice. Still, pick any other document type (besides photos and maybe audio) and you have a valid complaint.)

Re:I ditched my iPad for Android

[b0bby]

I have an iPad - and having to plug the thing into a PC to "sync" it to move files is ridiculous given that it has wifi. Granted, it would be a little more of a task for Apple to do wireless synching - perhaps even just having the host PC turned on and listening to broadcasts - but it could be done.

It certainly can be done, since my poop brown Zune does it really well. I guess iOS 5 might do this when it comes out.

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[gilesjuk]

Rubbish, the support period from Apple is longer than from Samsung. Apple supports 2-3 years, the industry average is 1-2 years, usually 12 months.

Flash is a non-Apple standard? it's not even a standard. A standard implies that a specification or protocol is available to 3rd parties which is incorrect. It's closed and proprietary, I find it laughable that people who are normally advocating openness think such proprietary closed source technology is a good thing?

Re:I just paid $22.87 for an iPad2-64GB and my gir

[vlm]

Neglecting to mention those were paid for using $25 face value 1/2 oz golden eagles.

Yes I'm well aware its laughably bad comment spam, but its kinda funny how the numbers pretty much work out...

Exactly.

[MrEricSir]

(which, conveniently, is always 6 months from now.)

As someone who works in the open source world, I gotta say that's not only spot on, but applies to almost all open source software. You're trading ease of use for configurability and openness, at the cost of glitches and big, empty promises.

Re:Exactly.

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull-fucking-shit.

I am using a Thinkpad R60 right now with Ubuntu 10.04 LTS. Everything works perfectly. All of the hardware works. When I close the lid, it immediately goes into standby. When I open it, it immediately comes out. Wireless, bluetooth, everything flawless. The software I run has yet to crash one single time. Firefox runs perfectly. Chromium-browser runs perfectly, all of the cli apps (ssh, vi, etc.) run perfectly. Networking, i.e., Samba, apache, ssh server, run perfectly. There is nothing even remotely glitchy at all. It's like an appliance. I don't know what shit you are using, maybe you wrote it yourself but the open source software I use is fantastic.

Re:Exactly.

[manekineko2]

(which, conveniently, is always 6 months from now.)

As someone who works in the open source world, I gotta say that's not only spot on, but applies to almost all open source software. You're trading ease of use for configurability and openness, at the cost of glitches and big, empty promises.

Yeah, that's why I'm still running Internet Explorer. Firefox and Webkit (among the most popular and widely distributed of open source software) may have configurability and openness, but they'll never match Internet Explorer for its ease of use, lack of glitches and fulfilled promises.

Re:Exactly.

[oakgrove]

Yeah, I'm sure the guy only has 5 "apps" installed on his computer. Geez. Just gnome itself pulls in over a hundred distinct applications. Have you ever even seen Linux?

Re:Exactly.

[IrquiM]

I thought they were discussing pads now?

Re:Exactly.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yeah, that's why I'm still running Internet Explorer. Firefox and Webkit (among the most popular and widely distributed of open source software) may have configurability and openness, but they'll never match Internet Explorer for its ease of use, lack of glitches and fulfilled promises.

Heh. That reminds me: A few years ago I saw a post where somebody loudly proclaimed that the Mac had no games. Somebody angrily replied with "Nuh uh, we have Myst!"

Re:Exactly.

[MrEricSir]

You'll notice I never said this was true of all software. Firefox and Webkit are certainly exceptions to this.

Re:Exactly.

[MrEricSir]

And when you upgrade Ubuntu, expect random things to stop (or start) working. 'Tis the nature of desktop Linux.

As for what "shit" I'm using, I use Ubuntu. And some of the "shit" I write is included in Ubuntu, including the version you're using. So there's that.

Re:Exactly.

[shugah]

Lack of glitches? Surely you jest. What are we at - the 9th major release before we have a version that is both stable AND reasonably compliant with current W3C standards? Fulfilled promises? I give you quirks mode a broken box model.

Re:Exactly.

[JAlexoi]

Really? Have you ever used most of the enterprise software suites? Maybe you should look around at more COTS software

And since most of FOSS is infrastructure oriented, it's almost none of the FOSS is as bad as their commercial counterparts.
A lot of the consumer oriented software and UIs tend to be on the clunky side, but in most software. PERIOD. There is such a ridiculously small amount of polished software out there, that it's not even funny...

glitches and big, empty promises

Pretty much sums up all of the software industry. FOSS is no exception.

Re:Exactly.

[Pieroxy]

Firefox may very well be an exception to this, but certainly not Webkit, which is *not* a web browser. And no, Chrome is not open source, nor is Safari.

Re:Exactly.

[stewbacca]

Flawless, perfect, yet to crash one single time: delusional.

Re:Only things that matter:

[tepples]

Running custom applications on an iPad 2 requires $649 for a Mac mini and $99 per year for a developer certificate.

Re:Only things that matter:

[WillyWanker]

And Harry Potter and Transformers are the highest grossing movies of the year. Clearly they must be the best movies EVAH, right? Oh wait...

Re:Where does that cost of goods come from?

[node 3]

What's going on?

What's going on is that almost all of the assumptions you've made prior to your question are ass-backwards. I'll address one of the ones you would least expect to be false:

stop paying the Windows tax and run FOSS Android instead

No major manufacturer uses the actual open source Android distribution. In fact, the only version of Android that officially supports Android is not open source. It's very much closed, and tablet makers pay Google for access to it.

Open Screen Project

[tepples]

[SWF is] a proprietary closed source standard from Adobe.

Used to be until two and a half years ago. In February 2009, Adobe published the SWF specification under a license that does not prohibit third-party SWF players. Flash Player remains proprietary software, but the spec license change has allowed for Gnash, Gordon, and Smokescreen.

Re:Open Screen Project

[PCM2]

Used to be until two and a half years ago [wikipedia.org]. In February 2009, Adobe published the SWF specification under a license that does not prohibit third-party SWF players. Flash Player remains proprietary software, but the spec license change has allowed for Gnash [wikipedia.org], Gordon [slashdot.org], and Smokescreen [slashdot.org].

That argument seems to be sort of a smokescreen to me (no pun intended). None of those projects can play all Flash content. The most mature of the three, Gnash claims to support "most" Flash v7 and "some" Flash v8 and 9. Flash is on Version 10. As long as the only way to reliably play Flash content is to install the Adobe product, then Flash remains "closed" as a practical matter. Same is true of Microsoft's XML-based Office file formats; you can read the specs, but how many open source projects can reliably read/write .docx files? I would say none.

Re:Open Screen Project

[tepples]

Gnash can't play as much as Flash Player, but iOS can't even play as much as Gnash. How would you recommend watching, say, Homestar Runner or Weebl and Bob on iOS? Reencode to H.264 and make the file ten times bigger?

Re:Open Screen Project

[drinkypoo]

That argument seems to be sort of a smokescreen to me (no pun intended). None of those projects can play all Flash content.

And neither can the flash player. Try playing some very old flash, it may or may not work. Try running it on Linux or on OSX, it may asplode.

Re:Open Screen Project

[exomondo]

As long as the only way to reliably play Flash content is to install the Adobe product, then Flash remains "closed" as a practical matter. Same is true of Microsoft's XML-based Office file formats; you can read the specs, but how many open source projects can reliably read/write .docx files? I would say none.

And yet the specs for HTML5 are all there but how many browsers can run all HTML5 content? None! I'm no fan of Flash but your logic is way off.

Re:Open Screen Project

[PCM2]

And yet the specs for HTML5 are all there but how many browsers can run all HTML5 content? None! I'm no fan of Flash but your logic is way off.

The extent to which modern Web browsers support HTML5 vs. the extent to which the latest version of Gnash supports Flash content is what's way off.

Re:Open Screen Project

[exomondo]

And yet the specs for HTML5 are all there but how many browsers can run all HTML5 content? None! I'm no fan of Flash but your logic is way off.

The extent to which modern Web browsers support HTML5 vs. the extent to which the latest version of Gnash supports Flash content is what's way off.

That doesn't refute my comment at all, even with all the specs for HTML5 out there is still no browser that supports all HTML5 content, not even close, proving that even with a spec available there is still no guarantee there will be an implementation of the spec. I don't know the full feature breakdown of all modern browsers ability to implement the entire HTML5 spec vs Gnash's feature implementation of the entire Flash spec but i'd wager you don't either.

Re:Open Screen Project

[PCM2]

I don't know the full feature breakdown of all modern browsers ability to implement the entire HTML5 spec vs Gnash's feature implementation of the entire Flash spec but i'd wager you don't either.

Most browsers support some HTML5. In my experience they support most of it; any quirks at this point are fairly minor. By comparison, as I've mentioned before, Gnash only supports most Flash 7, some Flash 8 and Flash 9, and no Flash 10. That's by its developers' own admission, and that's a lot different than the difference between how WebKit renders HTML5/CSS3 versus how Firefox renders it.

Put it to you this way: How many Web developers bother to test against two or more different browsers? I'd wager all of them. How many Flash developers bother to test against Gnash? Find me one.

Re:Open Screen Project

[exomondo]

I prefer HTML5 for the future but if you're going to claim open flash viewers aren't capable of viewing all flash content you can't ignore the obvious fact that the same situation exists for HTML5. At least there is a way to view all flash content, there is still no such thing for HTML5.

Re:Open Screen Project

[PCM2]

You clearly don't work with HTML at all, because there really is no comparison between the state of Gnash and the state of Web browsers. Seriously. You've already said you don't know how much each supports, so don't keep repeating yourself.

Re:Open Screen Project

[exomondo]

You clearly don't work with HTML at all, because there really is no comparison between the state of Gnash and the state of Web browsers.

I didn't say it's about the state of Gnash vs Web Browsers, it's about the existence of software that conforms to open specifications and that just because the spec is open doesn't mean you'll get a conformant implementation, I agree with you on that but im not blind to the fact that this issue exists not just with non-adobe flash implementations but with all HTML5 browser implementations.

Seriously. You've already said you don't know how much each supports, so don't keep repeating yourself.

And if you did then you'd have posted it, but it's obvious you don't.

Re:Open Screen Project

[PCM2]

I didn't say it's about the state of Gnash vs Web Browsers, it's about the existence of software that conforms to open specifications and that just because the spec is open doesn't mean you'll get a conformant implementation

Amazing, though, that Adobe is able to create a conformant (not a real word) implementation when nobody else can -- isn't it?

And if you did then you'd have posted it, but it's obvious you don't.

And what is it you want me to post, exactly? Do you want me to scour the Web for sites written using HTML5 on the off chance that they might not work in one of the modern, HTML5-supporting Web browsers? Would that make you happy? If you found one HTML5 Web site that rendered weirdly in your browser, will you consider your point proven?

Meanwhile, Gnash cannot play Flash content created using Flash 10 features. Not one single Web site written using Flash 10 features will work on Gnash. The same is true of any site that uses certain features of Flash 7, 8, and 9. If you can't see the difference between that and how Web browsers support HTML5, you are truly blind. The simple fact is that there is not one single implementation of the supposedly "open" Flash standard that can reliably play Flash content, except one -- Adobe's. And when Adobe comes out with Flash 11 the open source implementations will fall even further behind.

Re:Open Screen Project

[exomondo]

Amazing, though, that Adobe is able to create a conformant (not a real word) implementation when nobody else can -- isn't it?

Not really, Adobe wrote the spec. Just like Oracle/Sun with the JVM and MS with .Net. I don't find that amazing at all, in fact i think it's pretty damn obvious.

And what is it you want me to post, exactly?

Some evidence backing your argument. The simple fact that you don't seem to be able to comprehend is that just because you have a published spec doesn't mean you'll get compliant implementations and that this is not something unique to Flash, it exists with published open specs like HTML5, JVM, .Net CLR, etc...

The simple fact is that there is not one single implementation of the supposedly "open" Flash standard that can reliably play Flash content, except one -- Adobe's.

Exactly like Mono vs CLR, HotSpot vs Harmony, etc... Flash is absolutely no different. You cant even do it with HTML5 because there is no software in existence that conforms to the whole spec.

Something I've never understood

[vlm]

Here's something I've never understood...

Samsung could drop its 10-inch tablet's price to $425 and pose a serious challenge to Apple's device. But will they...?

Why would anyone trade so much away for 10% of the price in a luxury market?

There's no way I'd drop most of my half of a mortgage payment on something that "kinda works sometimes" when I could just toss in the cost of a nice night out and get the top of the line...

Imagine if the decision was to buy the yugo for $9K or the BMW for $10K. You can have a grilled to perfection steak dinner for $5 or save a whopping 50 cents by having a three day old mcdonalds burger instead. Would I still be married if I told her to buy a $900 pair of sweatpants and teeshirt from walmart instead of a kilobuck wedding dress? Why throw down do much cash but not finish the job?

Now if it didn't really work, but it was 1/4 the price, Oh I'd find a way, even if it involved desoldering and remanufacturing. But almost but not quite the same cost? Forget it.

Re:Something I've never understood

[jedidiah]

...except in the real world it's the Yugo that doesn't fly apart into pieces.

Again with the clueless "BMW" remarks from the devout fanboys. I doubt if any of these jokers have ever been inside a BMW.

Some people are just brand fixated and will pay a lot of money for the right logo.

Re:Something I've never understood

[vlm]

Tactical error on my part. A better standard /. analogy would have been:

$9K for a used beater from '05 with 100K miles driven hard by teenage fast-and-the-furious wannabe that often breaks down vs $10K for a new one of whatever jedidiah thinks is a decent car brand.

The point remaining, if I'm gonna toss out a substantial amount of dough for a luxury, I want it to "just work perfectly", not be "kinda close for 10% less".

"Kinda close for 10% less" is how you sell 6-32 screws to engineers who wanted to use 8-24 screws but the boss forced the redesign because its a little cheaper. "Kinda close for 10% less" is not how you sell luxury goods.

"Here's my new Rowlex... Its almost like a Rolex, in that its worn on a wrist and tries to tell time, but not really, because it doesn't work. Oh well, I saved 10%" ... um, maybe, just maybe, that would fly at a 2600 meeting, but probably no where else..

Re:Something I've never understood

[spire3661]

This is it exactly. The Apple premium is exactly what Kutaragi (Father of the PS3) was describing when he said " It will be expensive ... for consumers to think to themselves 'I will work more hours to buy one'. " .

Re:Something I've never understood

[cynyr]

could you find me a new car on a lot in the USA for 10K? where the two car sizes are at all the same size/grade? i mean no used BMW 535, vs a Kia sub compact. This is under the assumption a fixed budget to use on a "new" car.

I say this as the US doesn't seem to get the high end trim levels in the fiestas, golfs, GTIs, and etc. that Europe gets. We also don't really get the Turbo diesel options as well.

Re:Something I've never understood

[ginbot462]

Or 60-mpg diesels ... but that's a whole another can of worms.

Motorola Xoom owner here

[oakgrove]

I also got my Xoom for free.

I've had my Xoom almost since it first came out and I, as you, have had a much improved experience following the 3.1 update. A friend of mine as well as my boss both have iPads that I have had much experience with and here's my 2 cents.

I prefer the Xoom for the following reasons:
The web browser makes more sense ergonomically on a tablet than Safari does on the iPad since it has tabs that are always viewable.
Higher resolution widescreen display.
I prefer the way multitasking works as I just hit a button on the taskbar and thumbnails of currently running programs display to pick from.
Always visible and consistent "back" button on the taskbar.
Widgets
Wi-fi hangs on to a signal better. My boss is constantly getting the "would you like to sign up for a cellular plan" pop-up on his iPad when the wi-fi falls down.
Google Music integration with the music player so all of my stuff is always at hand.
Scripting layer for Android so I can write and run python scripts right on the device.
Choice of keyboards including "Hacker's Keyboard" that gives me access to all keys including Esc, Ctrl, and Alt for vnc/ssh sessions.
Firefox web browser that stays in sync with my desktop browser including tabs/settings/passwords, etc.
Ubuntu chroot so I have an industrial strength cli environment right on the device.

About the only advantages I see for iPad is the interface is smoother and their are more tablet oriented apps. Some people claim that it is simpler to operate but I don't really think that is the case. I have yet to see any particular exclusive apps that would draw me away from Android and I can get past the relatively small difference in smooth. YMMV.

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[shutdown -p now]

There is one huge disadvantage that I see with Honeycomb tablets: the stock browser is a horrible, slow piece of crap. It's probably the fourth time I post this on Slashdot, but this just serves to highlight the point: there have been two Honeycomb updates already (3.1 and 3.2) and none of them fixed it. It is still impossible to post a comment on Slashdot using the stock Honeycomb browser: the typing lag is so slow that it is an exercise in frustration and nothing else. Meanwhile, Safari on iPad can do so just fine. Heck, browser on my Android phone can do it!

And before I get a bunch of replies about how it's Slashdot HTML/JS that's crap (it is, but it's not relevant in this case) - it's not just Slashdot. Same problems on XDA forums, for example, A bunch of other places, too.

I can't imagine how this kind of bug can go unfixed for two significant updates.

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[oakgrove]

I agree it sucks. I use Opera and Firefox almost exclusively. Try putting about:debug in the address bar then turning off video acceleration.

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[shutdown -p now]

I'd gladly use Opera, if they didn't screw up scrolling there. Normally in a browser (or any app really), scroll direction is "sticky" - if you start a gesture more or less vertically, you'll scroll only vertically even if your finger moves to the side as you continue the gesture. In Opera, however, there's only panning - it scrolls exactly as much as you move the finger, on both axes. So in practice, even if you try scrolling vertically, you'll end up moving a bit to the side as well.

Firefox is better in that regard, but last I checked, it didn't do Flash?

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[oakgrove]

Absolutely true on the Opera front of multi axis scrolling. You have to wonder how such a talented group of developers can get something so fundamentally wrong when practically everybody else gets it right. That's the main reason I don't use Opera on my phone unless it is in single column layout mode. However, on the tablet, horizontal scroll is much less of an issue when in landscape mode so it doesn't really bother me there. They really should fix that though.

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[Dog-Cow]

If your boss doesn't have a cellular plan for his iPad, why doesn't he turn off the cellular radio? For that matter, why did he buy a 3G-capable model? Really, I almost pity you for working for someone so stupid.

Re:Motorola Xoom owner here

[oakgrove]

why did he buy a 3G-capable model?

It was a Christmas gift.

, I almost pity you for working for someone so stupid.

They guy is in his 60's and is tech illiterate. Besides there's something to be said for job security via the people you work for being clueless about something you have expertise in.

ipad vs galaxy

[bobm3]

hmm the choice is a better all around machine or saving a few dollars, I go with the better product that just works.

Re:ipad vs galaxy

[vlm]

Solution is raise the price to match the ipad? Crazily enough it might work to position themselves as "about the same although a little different" rather than carefully positioning themselves to be the ipad's annoying kid brother, or the ipad's poseur wannabe guy.

Imagine how horrible linux market share would be on servers if it was marketed in the 90s like Android is marketed in the 10s... "Well, RHAT will sell you a support contract for 10% less than msdos 3.30, so you save there, but its not quite as good and there's some minor UI issues where the world standard of blackslashes in directory names is forwards slashes on linux, and all the distributions are different and appear and disappear unless you stick to the majors, and individual issues have to be tracked by the end users, unlike msdos where everyone runs the same ver 3.30 so there's no real community amongst linux distros... But, hey, if you want to put in more effort for 10% less cost, its ... usable...

Note I'm not talking about what it is, but how its marketed.

Re:ipad vs galaxy

[cynyr]

not to be too much of an ass/youngin' here, but wasn't most of the rest of the world outside of MSdos 3.30 using slashes at the time anyways?

Re:ipad vs galaxy

[Dog-Cow]

If by "most of the rest of the world" you mean Mac OS, VMS, or zOS (or whatever it was called back then), the answer would be no.

Re:ipad vs galaxy

[cynyr]

I was thinking the rest of the world, by install size, UNIX and other POSIX systems.

Hack Much?

[turb]

If you're someone that wants to get into the device, and do plenty of your own modifications then sure get an android based tablet that fits into your desired price/feature range. You'll be glad you did and have lots of fun.

If you want to use a tablet and not fiddle with it then I'd recommend getting an iPad. It "just works" and there's plenty of great software.

Re:Hack Much?

[oakgrove]

I have a Xoom with Android 3.1. Could you tell me what about it doesn't "just work"?

Re:Hack Much?

[oakgrove]

That's strange as according to this review, the xoom gets 8 hours and 20 minutes on a charge. I usually go a couple of days on a charge using it on and off.

Re:Hack Much?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

I have a Xoom with Android 3.1. Could you tell me what about it doesn't "just work"?

Full automated backup - has this been implemented yet? I may be ill-informed or behind the times, but a colleague of mine was complaining about the series of manual steps that needed to be undertaken to perform a full backup of system, data and apps. He even made the suggestion that root access was required...

Feel free to shoot me down if this isn't the case. I don't own a Xoom myself.

Re:Hack Much?

[oakgrove]

He even made the suggestion that root access was required...

OMG! He said what??? root?? Isn't that illegal and stuff? Heaven help us if anyone were to root their device and install a custom recovery like clockwork mod and use a program like nandroid to back up their entire device to an image that they can then put anywhere they want. Or use a program like titanium backup that will custom back up any software or setting and then allow you to restore it at will. I mean, Worse. Thing. Ever. Right?

Re:Hack Much?

[tooyoung]

Compared to just plugging it into your computer, that doesn't 'just work'.

Re:Hack Much?

[CharlyFoxtrot]

You are arguing that everyone needs to be a sysadmin with the skillset that goes with it in order to have a tablet which is properly backed up ? Good luck with that.

Re:Hack Much?

[IrrepressibleMonkey]

You seem to be taking this a little personally. I'm not criticising the Xoom; I'm merely venturing a suggestion as to why the phrase "it just works" is more readily offered in relation to the iPad. If the Xoom "just works" for you, that's great. Ultimately personal experience is what counts. But a large proportion of iPad users would shy away from the solutions that you've alluded to in your post. The simplicity of the iPad backup isn't something to be dismissed.

Re:Where does that cost of goods come from?

[jo_ham]

add the touchscreen layer

You just answered your own question.

Re:Only things that matter:

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is a mathematical proof that your first condition is wrong.

None of the demos on this page( http://www.apple.com/html5/ ) will run on the Galaxy Tab. Therefore the Galaxy Tab does not support the entire web.

QED

Re:Only things that matter:

[will_die]

For support entire web: neither there are plenty of sites a galaxy cannot access.
You can easily and cheaply develop custom applications for the ipad
For user customization what kind of customization? There are plenty of things on the ipad that can be customized.

As for those items mattering not at all. The last two items are so low on the list of what real users want to do it. As for visiting all sites on the internet, since neither devices can do it, that is not a major item. Most major sites have pages setup for theses mobile devices so you can get to the data, also the really big and important sites have applications for accessing data they produce.

As for /. users

[drb226]

TFA:

[Get the iPad]...unless you’ve got a grudge against Apple for some reason, or are enamored with the idea of having a more configurable tablet

He just described ~80% of slashdotters there. So go get your Galaxy Tabs, folks.

Galaxy Tab has already been declared the winner

[Snaller]

Here
http://www.displaymate.com/Tablet_ShootOut_2.htm

Re:Galaxy Tab has already been declared the winner

[PCM2]

That's weird. You say the Galaxy Tab has already been declared the winner, but the link you provide declares the iPad the winner... and goes as far as to use words like "obnoxious," "tolerable," "hurts to look at," "sledge hammer approach," and "Samsung ruined it" to describe the Galaxy Tab. (Note that the review is just of the various tablets' screen technologies.)

Re:Galaxy Tab has already been declared the winner

[CProgrammer98]

and you missed the part where they said "so the Galaxy Tab is the Winner, by a nose"

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

No, but they'd be the "clear winners", which is what was claimed.

Re:Only things that matter:

[oakgrove]

For support entire web: neither there are plenty of sites a galaxy cannot access.

I have Firefox installed on my Xoom with the desktop UA string. What site can I not access?

You can easily and cheaply develop custom applications for the ipad

If you already have a Mac, sure. Otherwise, you will need to buy one to the tune of at least 7-8 hundred dollars, then pay the 99 dollar iTunes fee. For Android, you just download eclipse and the Android sdk for free on whatever computer you have at hand whether it has Windows, Linux or OSX on it. Then when you want to load your app on your device, you pay nothing.

For user customization what kind of customization?

Widgets? Alternative launchers? Themes? And that's before you root it.

The last two items are so low on the list of what real users want to do it.

Users don't like widgets? News to me as a person that administers a fleet of Iconia A500's. Also, in a corporate environment, my boss cares a whole lot on how easily and cheaply I can develop for our tablets.

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[the_brobdingnagian]

I absolutely hate Flash for several reasons, but do you mean these specifications are not open? http://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[lordkuri]

A standard implies that a specification or protocol is available to 3rd parties which is incorrect.

I still wouldn't necessarily call it a standard, but your assertion that there are no specifications available to 3rd parties is wrong.

http://wwwimages.adobe.com/www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/swf/pdf/swf_file_format_spec_v10.pdf

Re:Only things that matter:

[WillyWanker]

He found the "clear winner" based upon his needs. You refuted that saying "no, your needs will be better served by the #1 selling tablet, the iPad 2... even if it doesn't do what you want". Silly fanboi.

Re:Only things that matter:

[macs4all]

If units sold means a better product then Britney Spears is one of the best musicians in the world.

Funny, that's exactly what Android users keep using as "proof" that Android phones are "better" because of a few quarters of higher sales numbers.

Re:Only things that matter:

[PCM2]

None of the demos on this page( http://www.apple.com/html5/ ) will run on the Galaxy Tab. Therefore the Galaxy Tab does not support the entire web.

How do we know if they'll run on the Galaxy Tab? They very well might, if Apple hadn't put up a wall that prevents non-Safari Web browsers from viewing them. The content won't load on a Galaxy Tab, but to my knowledge nobody has checked whether it will run (which isn't the same thing). Saying that makes Apple's product superior is like saying Internet Explorer 6 is a better Web browser than Chrome because Chrome can't view Web pages with ActiveX controls on them.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[manekineko2]

Heh, open in the sense that any door is open if you have a crowbar.

Re:Only things that matter:

[PCM2]

I have Firefox installed on my Xoom with the desktop UA string. What site can I not access?

Sites that use Flash, Silverlight, Java applets, or ActiveX controls, for starters. What's more, when using the built-in browser I've also seen plenty of Flash sites that reject the Galaxy Tab because it doesn't have the Flash Player installed (even when it does).

Re:Only things that matter:

[oakgrove]

http://www.apple.com/html5/

Most of it works pretty well considering the fact that the site is owned by Apple and is specifically designed to show off iOS compatible extensions to a non-ratified HTML and CSS standard. Nice try though.

MySpace was completely customizable too. Look how that turned out.

Look how Windows turned out. Neither of which have anything to do with the tablet space.

No! Not they don't.

Every Android device I see that someone has is chock full of widgets. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:Only things that matter:

[CFTM]

I would wager that at least 95% of tablet users have no interest in developing custom applications. I suspect that this will never be a major selling point for these devices, sure a niche audience is interested in this ability but most of the users don't care.

And honestly, my 95% estimation is probably on the low end of the spectrum. Its probably much closer to 99%.

Although this is merely anecdotal evidence, I can say that every user that I personally know who utilizes a tablet device will never develop a custom application for these devices. One of them has worked in technology for over 35 years and has been a significant part (programmer) of over 20 game releases in that time period. But this is just a small subset of people and I do not have enough information to speculate accurately on this issue at the macro level.

Winning and Clarity

[SuperKendall]

The claim was "clear winner"

Why would that not obviously be defined by who is making the most profit? Since after all the point of any company making said devices s to make money...

Then of course, the "clear winner" is Apple.

Toshiba Tablet

[Gutboy]

I'm looking at the Toshiba Tablet. It has one feature I really like: "Battery Replaceable? Yes, and you can do it without and tools." A full sized USB port and an SB port don't hurt, either.

Re:Toshiba Tablet

[green1]

I too am looking at the Toshiba Thrive, but to be honest, I don't think "replaceable battery" is as big a deal as they try to make it out to be. The odds of still using the same device by the time the battery needs to be replaced are slim to none, and the idea of having 2 batteries for a device with enough battery life to go more than a full day between charges, especially when the only way to charge the spare battery is in the device itself, seems less than necessary.

The reason I'm looking at the Thrive is that is is the only tablet that has full size USB and HDMI ports and a full size SD card slot, completely negating the need to carry around any adapters to connect devices. The ability to use any SD card you have lying around, or pull the one out of your camera to transfer photos is quite appealing, as is the ability to plug in any USB thumb drive someone hands you. Full HDMI output to use this device as an HD video player just completes the package.

Now if only they'd get their butts in gear and release the thing in Canada already!

On a side note, I was offered a steep discount on the Xoom through work, and seriously considered it (what with it already being available in Canada, and the discount, I was willing to live with having to carry adapters around with it) unfortunately what I couldn't live with was the fact that in Canada Motorola still refuses to release the 3.1 update, even though they're working on 3.2 for the USA already, meaning Canadians still aren't allowed to use the SD card slot.

We live in a global economy, I really wish tech companies would wake up to this and quit discriminating against those of us who don't live in the USA.

Re:Only things that matter:

[oakgrove]

I would wager that at least 95% of tablet users have no interest in developing custom applications.

Really? For realz? Naw...

But seriously. If that 1 percent or so of people that do have that interest didn't, the other 99 percent of users wouldn't exist.

Re:OT Anecdote as Data

[PCM2]

Just tried it on a Galaxy Tab 10.1 and it works fine. I personally never put much stock in display models, especially at a high-traffic "big box" store like Best Buy. Those display units go through hell. If one crashes, I just think, "Jesus, couldn't they have even put a working one out for display?"

Re:Only things that matter:

[PCM2]

Work fine on my Xoom. What site are you referring to?

Firefox Mobile doesn't support plugins, so I don't see how you can be viewing Flash sites with it. As for the stock browser, Flash sites absolutely do not "work fine" on Honeycomb tablets; that's just an out-and-out lie.

PCs older than an iPad

[tepples]

If you were foolish enough to not consider which laptop brand would allow you to enable development on an iPad/iPhone

Since when has it commonly been considered "foolish" to have bought a computer before the iPad existed?

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[epine]

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance used to be a bit of a cult favorite. I think for me it was my Marshal McLuhan watershed.

From Alan Jacobs' superb distillation Why Bother with Marshall McLuhan?

First, that McLuhan never made arguments, only assertions. Second, that those assertions are usually wrong, and when they are not wrong they are highly debatable. Third, that McLuhan had an uncanny instinct for reading and quoting scholarly books that would become field-defining classics. Fourth, that McLuhan's determination to bring the vast resources of humanistic scholarship to bear upon the analysis of new media is an astonishingly fruitful one, and an example to be followed. And finally, that once one has absorbed that example there is no need to read anything that McLuhan ever wrote.

Alan Jacobs single-handedly proves there is intelligent life in the humanities after all, even if he did wrap his fine meditation in three layers of compatibility cloak. His thesis is that McLuhan made an immense contribution by giving people permission to speak about media in a different way, without sounding like complete idiots (in comparison to what McLuhan got away with himself).

This lumps McLuhan in with Pirsig and Freud.

As far as I know those handlebars are still loose. And I believe now that he was actually offended at the time. I had had the nerve to propose repair of his new eighteen-hundred dollar BMW, the pride of a half-century of German mechanical finesse, with a piece of old beer can!

You're one of those. I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I regard the Apple-branded wedding dress as a Symbiote spider skin. Your GF would probably think that totally rocks as a wedding dress, if it comes in white. Don't forget your first anniversary, she might have a temper.

Its a personal matter

[Elimental]

I have an ASUS Eee Pad and an iPad 1 and both have pro's and con's but to be honest you can sum it up as follow:

If you want design over function go iOS
If you want function over design go Android

Because the device is so personal it comes down what you weigh more, design and looks or functions and control. There is no one device fits all group here, which is great as competition brings innovation both in products as well as price.

Samsung Aping Apple, vs Lenovo Thinking Different

[obarthelemy]

and Sammy will find buyers, but I'm much more interested in the Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet, which does everything quite differently:
- active digitizer pen, allows taking freehand+OCR notes on it. If I can discipline myself into using that correctly, should shave 1hr off my workday.
- a smorgasbord of standard ports: USB host (USB drives FTW !), Mini-USB, mini-HDMI, full SD, allows connecting the tablet to stuff w/o special "forgettable" cables, and saves on cables
- plenty of pro software pre-installed (QuickOffice, security, OCR, some kind of notetaking software...), shaves $50+ from the actual "usable configuration" price, on top of cable savings.
- optional Thinkpad keyboard with a variation of the trackpoint, lets my hands stay on home row
- serious-looking black slate

Re:Or jailbreak it

[KreAture]

And every month someone with a autowelder comes and closes it again.
He also removes any addons you may have installed and makes sure the welds are stronger this time.

Btw, my friend tried to park his iCar in my garage and iGarage wanted to erase the tapes in his 8-track and glovebox.
Will I have to install a new carport to avoid it (tinker?) or will someone relax a bit soon?

Re:Only things that matter:

[LynnwoodRooster]

Great - let me know when HTML5 becomes a standard, and Apple allows royalty-free use of the patents they're trying to get included in HTML5...

No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[JackAxe]

I have an iPad(iOS 5 -- I'm a developer.) and an ASUS Transformer to name just two of my tablets. My iPad is really just glorified personal media player -- and at that task it's overpriced. My ASUS on the other hand is closer to my MacBook Pro with the niceties of a tablet. For what I do and what I like, it's hands down better on almost every front

I MY FREAKING OPINION -- just like the article this is linked to:
The iPad is for someone that's heavily invested in iTunes and enjoys an overly simplified UI that holds one's hand and lets that user know exactly what they can and can not do. It's a device that throws individuality out the door in favor of conformity -- every iOS device looks pretty much the same with only a slight variation in the background and it's pretty sad that almost all of them have AngryBirds installed. iOS has become rather generic.

The iPad is a safe and limited tablet that will rarely evolve beyond what it is now. It's main purpose is to keep the user in Apple's eco-system and it does an excellent job at that task.

Android(Honeycomb) tablets on the other hand, are for those that want the consumption strengths of a tablet, but WAY more functionality like a traditional OS. They're devices for the tinkers, the individuals, power users. People that don't readily conform to one generic set standard and would like to personalize their experience outside of just having different apps available.

They're excellent devices for those that don't need their hand held and can make decisions on their own.

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[aiken_d]

So, sort of like a generic BMW versus a customized 1970's muscle car with lots of aftermarket parts that you can easily wrench on yourself, then?

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

I didnt see that in his post. There are plenty of android tablets that dont require 'aftermarket wrenching', they install and run apps just like the ipad does.

What they do allow is a choice of applications markets (there are dozens, including googles and amazons), and usually the ability to add in a microsd card to upgrade storage while apple requires you to upgrade to a new tablet to go from 16 to 32gb.

His comments about it being a device that preserves a user inside the apple ecosystem is spot on. Be interesting to see how the upcoming amazon android tablet works out, if it makes a ploy to keep the user inside the amazon ecosystem or is out-of-the-box flexible.

By the way, you sound British. Do you know why the Brits never became major computer manufacturers? After trying for years they were unable to find a way to make them leak oil.

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[dfghjk]

I wonder what part of his post led you to think BMW? Oh yeah, it's what an Apple fanboy script directs you to say...

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[yeshuawatso]

"I have an iPad(iOS 5 -- I'm a developer)....My iPad is really just glorified personal media player" - Ditto. Even after jailbreaking, it's still just an oversize iPod touch. For media, it is great; for everything else, you should get something else. However, I believe this was Apple's goal the whole time. This tablet can't replace the functionality of my Windows XP Motion M1400 (which is now dead), but it does a wonderful job of replacing my phone for media viewing and web surfing. It's something that I could leave with my mother and not wonder if she's updated her virus scanner recently.

I've been thinking about that ASUS Transformer as a laptop (I don't have one since the Motion tablet died), and I don't need a crap load of power to create a few docs either, but almost $600 for tablet and dock is making me consider a cheap laptop.

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[R3d M3rcury]

Here's to the tinkers. The individuals. The power users. The people that don't readily conform to one generic set standard and would like to personalize their experience outside of just having different apps available. They're not fond of rules and they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify and vilify them. About the only thing you can't do is ignore them because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as crazy, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[Bongo]

But also, people who can "think for themselves" and "not conform" have their own way of making decisions, like, "I just want a simple device that works for XYZ, as I'm too busy doing my real job where my skills and talents and creativity are focussed."

If your skills and talents are IT stuff then fine, but being an IT geek doesn't mean you're the only person who can think for themselves. Slight bias there with how you're framing the word "individuals".

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[JAlexoi]

The muscle car is the iPad. Incredibly simplistic and a big engine roaring under the hood. And trying to turn in it, is like trying to turn a boat...
Today, BMW will probably have more after-market parts than any muscle car.

However, BMW owners have known to be gits. So yeah, BMW's owner is just like the stereotypical Apple user....

Re:No longer comparing Apple's to apples...

[JAlexoi]

+1. I travel a lot, so even a 7hr laptop will not do a lot of good for me. The Transformer gets through a long journey and more.

But, does it run Linux??

[udippel]

Lame? no
Redundant? no

I read the review and there was no mention of it. I have the money, I only have yet to find a good 10-inch tablet on which I can install Linux. No, not the Android-kernel, but, let's say Debian. And not in a chroot, not with soldering. Just from a USB, for example.
I don't know how many feel like me, but no business with me if I can't run my Linux distro of choice on it. Am I the only one?

Re:But, does it run Linux??

[shutdown -p now]

The most likely candidate for this at the moment seems to be Asus Transformer, since its boot key has been leaked, and so the device is fully exposed for mods now.

So far as I can tell, the trick is getting all the needed drivers. Here is where it's at right now.

Re:But, does it run Linux??

[redstar427]

"Linux" is a *kernel*, and YES Android devices run Linux kernels.
However, you may mean "Does it run a Linux distribution?"
Not yet, since the existing distributions were written to run on different hardware.

However, Android devices are running a Linux kernel and have Linux drivers for the hardware.
So, all that is needed is for developers to choose to write a Linux distribution for Android devices.

Re:Only things that matter:

[exomondo]

How adorable. You have found a "clear winner". Too bad for your theory that the iPad 2 sells more units in 2 weeks than the Tab sells in an entire year.

That doesn't refute his theory at all, he categorically said his conclusion is based on those three metrics. Now its quite obvious that those 3 metrics are not the most important to most people given that the ipad sells far more than the galaxy tab yet doesn't satisfy those criteria, we can all see that already so at best you could be captain obvious and point that out.

Re:Only things that matter:

[colinrichardday]

http://www.apple.com/html5

Firefox can access that site, though it cannot access the content listed on the site. Also, I can access the content (with various degrees of success) by using konqueror to spoof Safari. Perhaps this is less of an issue concerning the capabilities of Firefox and more of an issue concerning Apple.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[cynyr]

so explain why the keep filling the spots my crowbar fits on every new release?

Re:Only things that matter:

[webmistressrachel]

You're not doing a very good job of trolling for Apple.

The iPad can't view Flash, Silverlight, full embedded Java, or ActiveX either. What's your point exactly?

Re:Only things that matter:

[webmistressrachel]

Blatant lies. Now I know you're trolling; Firefox for Android DOES support Flash, and the browser's user-agent is the only thing standing between you and rich Internet goodness. Maybe you couldn't figure that out and got bitter about it, and started trolling every time you see the iPad compared to Android?

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

Sorry, but liking what you don't like doesn't make me a "fanboi", but calling me a "fanboi" over it makes you something of a prick.

The clear winner is the iPad. You can *prefer* something else, but there's no way possible to make the general statement that Android is "clear winner".

Cost of Goods -- WRONG

[Chuckstar]

I can almost guarantee that the cost of goods analysis is wrong. There is no way in today's tablet market that Samsung wouldn't mark down it's price below the iPad if it could afford to.

Re:Cost of Goods -- WRONG

[julesh]

I can almost guarantee that the cost of goods analysis is wrong. There is no way in today's tablet market that Samsung wouldn't mark down it's price below the iPad if it could afford to.

It's called perceived value: if you initially sell something for a high price and then drop it, purchasers think they're getting a better deal.

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[cynyr]

Ask the iPhone 3G users and how that last iOS update went... it may have been the 3gs users... which ever.

BN Color Nook w/ Android

[Bodhammer]

I'm quite content for the moment with my refurbished BN Color Nook running CM7 (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1030227). It overclocks to 1200Mhz, has complete access to the Android Market and Amazon App Store. I use the Kindle App for books, as well as Netflix, WSJ, obligatory Angry Birds and many other mainstream apps. The display is beautiful and battery life is pretty good. My cost with nice RooCase, 8GB flash MicroSD, and the Nook, $205! Of course I would like more memory and a Dual-Core but I really don't need it and I don't have a spare $500 at the moment.

Re:BN Color Nook w/ Android

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

To be fair, you do have to hack the nook to get all that goodness, although its a very easy hack. At $205 you're also talking about a refurbished nook, not a new one. While there were a few bluebird deals where you could get a new nook for close to $200, they're not the sort of deals you can get most of the time, or even a lot of the time.

So we'd have to compare it with refurb galaxy tabs and refurbed original ipads, and those often come around for $300-400ish.

Re:BN Color Nook w/ Android

[Cyberllama]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I was a bit disappointed that the screen on my refurb unit had some blemishes, but on searching around I found that was fairly common and sending it back for a replacement was so likely to fix that (as I'd just get another dice roll on a refurb).

That aside, it does a pretty good job for everything I need it to do. People make a lot of noise about the iPad having more apps for tablets, but that's just really not a big deal. Ninety-nine percent of the use cases for a device like this just involves having a bigger screen for web browsing or video watching; the Nook Color with Cm7 handles this easily. The only app I really needed was Netflix, and it didn't take very much to make that work.

To be perfectly honest, since so much of what tablets are used for is web browsing, I can't imagine why anyone who didn't need the friendlier UI wouldn't prefer an android tablet. I absolutely LOVE that I have the option to use Flash when I need to. There's so much stuff you still just can't get any other way. Of course, Grandma might not love it so much since she wouldn't know how to switch it to "tap to enable" mode. I have an iPhone, and I'll probably replace it with another one--but I can't imagine I'll ever shell out for an iPad when I get so much more value out of an Android tablet in terms of cost and features.

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

Unlike comparing a Kia to a Lamborghini, price isn't a factor. Although Android devices do tend to cost more, they aren't too much more expensive. If a Lamborghini was only 5% more expensive than a Kia (including maintenance, etc.), I doubt Kia would do all that well either.

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

See my other reply to you.

And, according to my theory, I'd drive whatever the fuck I'd want. My post wasn't about what *I* prefer, but what the "clear winner is". And the clear winner as the market stands now is the Kia.

As for the tablet market, the clear winner is the iPad. Is your grasp on reality that weak that you can't understand this?

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

How adorable. You have found a "clear winner". Too bad for your theory that the iPad 2 sells more units in 2 weeks than the Tab sells in an entire year.

That doesn't refute his theory at all, he categorically said his conclusion is based on those three metrics. Now its quite obvious that those 3 metrics are not the most important to most people given that the ipad sells far more than the galaxy tab yet doesn't satisfy those criteria, we can all see that already so at best you could be captain obvious and point that out.

Except he didn't just say, "based on those three metrics", but also claimed that those three metrics are the only ones that are important, and that made the Galaxy Tab the "clear winner", "hands down".

If all he said was that those are his criteria, and that his criteria aren't all that common, I'd not have replied as I did.

You are somewhat correct that my reply is something of a "Captain Obvious" post, but only if this were pretty much anywhere other than Slashdot. Captain Obvious implies the active membership has a firm grasp on reality.

Not so fast

[Cyberllama]

The problem with articles relying on price estimates based on teardowns is that those are only semi-accurate when their current. Once they're a year old, like the iPad 2's estimate is, it's almost certainly way too high. I wouldn't be surprised if the iPad 2 was actaully less expensive to build, at current prices, than the Galaxy Tab 10.1. Of course, Apple is less willing to accept a lower profit margin. They have less competition, since they're the only iOS tablet manufacturer.

Re:Who cares?

[cynyr]

care to show me a touch screen laptop that my kids could use that plays angry birds, and kids doodle, that I can also use to read slashdot, or check my e-mail with (and play angry birds/tank hero)? This is also around the $500 mark?

Someone's been drinking the kool-aid

[Cute Fuzzy Bunny]

I keep hearing the Appleoids tell me that the ipad/ipad2 provide the only 'real tablet experience' and all the other esoterica from the title about polish and apps. I've used ipods, ipads and android tablets. For the life of me I cant sort out this 'special experience' from one to the other. The android tabs and ipads run most the exact same apps from the exact same publishers. I have a $100 android tablet from a year ago thats frankly pretty slow these days but I got to learn all about tablets with it. I just bought a $150 android tablet with the same innards as the original ipad, but with a supposedly lesser screen. The screen looks and works just fine to me, and I see very little difference between it and the ipad 2 screens. Plus I'll let my 6 year old play games on these without fear of breakage. I saw a mother hand her ipad 2 to her kid the other day and the kid dropped it, screen down. Smash.

I watch netflix, listen to music, watch ripped movies, play all sorts of games, browse the web, do video chat, make free internet phone calls, etc. Nothing I've tried was slow or made me think of a $600 dual core ipad, or a similarly priced galaxy pad.

Funny but the same strategy has worked for decades with computer hardware, televisions, cars and so forth. You can always spend 3-4x for something than whatever provides the basic function. If you can identify and value the special functions or capabilities that the more expensive one brings to the table, and you need those, buy it.

Of course, I dont drink the Apple kool-aid nor do I want to spend a similar amount on an android tablet. It'll be outdated in a year or two when version 3.8 or 4.0 android or ios v6 comes out and they leave legacy hardware behind. I'll be able to buy another $150 tablet that runs the new os, has mostly the same innards as the new expensive tablets, has a workable screen, maybe is a little thicker or bigger or heavier. But I sure wont be impressing others with my new $600 tablet, my $80,000 car, or my 73" LED 3d television set. Thats important, right?

I did retire when I was 39 though. Mostly by not wasting money.

Re:OT Anecdote as Data

[517714]

You should have stayed with the generic argument against anecdotal "evidence" which is much stronger than the case specific one. If you want to see the tablet floor models that really get used a lot, go to an Apple Store. But they don't seem to crash.

Re:Only things that matter:

[exomondo]

Except he didn't just say, "based on those three metrics", but also claimed that those three metrics are the only ones that are important

And clearly they are for him, since we all know they aren't for everyone, that's already blindingly obvious given ipad sales figures.

Re:Only things that matter:

[colinrichardday]

http://www.apple.com/html5/

Google Chrome could deal with the content (except for the 3D stuff). Is it the web browser for Galaxy?

Fanboyism....

[tonywestonuk]

" In fact, Apple’s more tightly constrained systems are generally credited with being more stable and less prone to hardware/software and OS/app incompatibilities and mishaps,"

So, he's saying that apples gear is more stable, etc, because its tightly constrained???

Bollocks!... Look at linux, that's pretty stable and works with all hardware, and yet its arguably the most open of PC operating systems. The reason Apple gear is more stable is because Apple makes it that way, rather than just make something that looks good, and ship it "cus the suckers will buy it anyhow", which seems to be the mentally of most of the tech industry.

Re:Only things that matter:

[PCM2]

Now I know you're trolling; Firefox for Android DOES support Flash

If Firefox for Android supports Flash they're being pretty quiet about it. News reports announcing the Firefox 6 beta complain that it has no Flash support. User comments on the Firefox Beta page on the Android Market complain that it still has no Flash support. The release notes for Firefox 6 say Flash and other plugins are not supported. This bug report has been open since January and as of late June it just says "we're working on it." If you guys are using Flash with Firefox for Android I'd love to hear how you've managed it. Sounds like the Mozilla Foundation would love to hear about it, too.

This is a troll.

[Antisyzygy]

At price parity the iPad 2 is probably a better bet for the average user since it's a more stable, near-perfect device with a rich assortment of apps for nearly every possible function you'd like to perform on a tablet, reasons the post.

Come on. I like how the OP tacked on "reasons the post" at the end to somehow claim objectivity. You did a great job of being objective OP.

Same problem as most Android phones.

[neosar82]

I got an iPad (original) from my work about a year ago. I used it quite a bit at first, but eventually wound up using my laptop more often. When I saw the Galaxy Tab 10.1 I really thought I'd give the tablet thing another try. I picked one up at Best Buy now that they have the no-questions-asked return policy. I truly believe it's the first iPad contender. It has the power, the battery life, the form factor, etc. All in all it's a great device. Also, I truly liked Honeycomb. Then, a few days later, I read that Samsung had ported their touchwiz UI to the Galaxy Tab, and were going to be pushing it out in an update in August. I promptly returned the device, and bought an iPad 2. Until Google puts their foot down and stops these manufacturers from bastardizing the very capable OS they have developed it's never going to be able to stand on equal footing with a device built by a company like Apple who controls everything from hardware to software. I decided to check out a Droid X2 a couple weeks ago, and after about 10 minutes gave it back in disgust. The thing had so much crapware bundled on it that it reminded me of 90s era PCs. Unfortunately you can't remove any of it without voiding your warranty. Google HAS to do something about this. I like Android, and I think some of these devices have a real chance at making a dent in the market, but they will not get a dime of my money until I get the OS as it was intended and the manufacturer leaves any modifications up to me.

Everthing you said is basically true

[Brannon]

but you said it in kinda an obnoxous & condescending tone and I strongly suspect that you are a dick.

Carryover apps

[whoop]

What percentage of people buying one of these devices already own a phone with the same OS?

To me, that would be a pretty major consideration. I have an Android phone. I am used to all its apps, paid or free. Buying an Android tablet would be a seamless transition. I'm sure it's similar with an Iphone-to-Ipad transition. Having to figure out different apps to do the same tasks between the two would get mighty annoying.

Is there anyone out there that has opposite devices and likes their choice?

Rumored cost of goods

[dwightk]

articles are bunk

Charging Problem with original Galaxy Tab

[grouchomarxist]

With the original Galaxy Tab there is an annoying misfeature when when you use USB connected to your computer, you only get a trickle recharge of the battery. Does the 10.1 Tab also have this problem. I couldn't find a reference to it in any of the reviews.

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[shmlco]

Many Flash apps like video players rely on certificates and signing in the official player. Without those, even a perfect clone won't be able to decode the streams.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[shmlco]

In the sense that many Android phones are also "open" if you have a crowbar. Rooting the device in order to gain access to restricted functionality is not the typical definition of open.

Re:Only things that matter:

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple hadn't put up a wall that prevents non-Safari Web browsers from viewing them.

Irrelevant. The claim is that the Galaxy Tab and handle 100% of the web. I have shown something it is blocked from therefore it cannot handle 100% of the web.

Easy solution

[SuperKendall]

So explain why the keep filling the spots my crowbar fits on every new release?

Because they know you have a crowbar and so can get back in. The other homes with owners who just use the front door are safer from burglars, and you can always get back in anyway so why do you care?

Re:OT Anecdote as Data

[CharlyFoxtrot]

I go see display models to find out if something can withstand a months of people constantly pawing at it and randomly pushing stuff. If it's somewhat greasy but in good working order it's a keeper for sure.

Re:Only things that matter:

[node 3]

Except he didn't just say, "based on those three metrics", but also claimed that those three metrics are the only ones that are important

And clearly they are for him, since we all know they aren't for everyone, that's already blindingly obvious given ipad sales figures.

Please re-read my reply to you. It's not clear *at all* that the person I was replying to understood this. In fact, it's fairly clear the exact opposite is the case. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying other than that it applies to the person in question.

Why, oh why?

[alex67500]

I read the title in my RSS feed, and still opened it. I knew it was going to end-up in a Fanboys vs. Haters and I still opened it. Well, better get back to work...

Not again!

[SpinyManiac]

Do we always have to have car analogies?

You've obviously never heard of the way the Honda/Acura NSX completly outshone the Ferarri 348. Also, the F430 has one of the ugliest interiors I've seen in a such an expensive car - is that part of the complete package?

How much of that applies to Apple is another matter, but don't think for a moment that they are in an unassailable position. There is no such thing.

Re:Not again!

[smash]

ugliness is subjective. NSX came out around the time of the 355, testarossa, F40, etc.

But all that is beside the point.

Never said apple are un-assailable. The point being - you can compare items on spec sheet numbers, but there are subjective things (such as ugliness or lack of it) that don't show on a spec sheet. Your example of the 430 interior for one - thats not a spec sheet item, and if you were comparing numbers on a bit of paper, it wouldn't rate a mention. You think its ugly. I personally don't but thats my opinion. Spec sheet doesn't take that into account at all.

It's the same with electronics gear. For example - Apple screens are excellent. Not necessarily in terms of the pixel resolution, but colour reproduction, viewing angle, and brightness consistency across the entire screen - a number of factors that aren't often on the spec sheet. Apple touch pads are second to none. OS X is only available on Mac, etc. Whether or not these things matter to you, only you can decide once using the device. They are part of the complete package, however and not on the spec sheet.

I'm a motorcyclist so I'll use a bike analogy :D On paper all the Jap 600cc supersports are within 5% of each other on power, weight, top sped, quarter mile, etc. However they all feel very different to actually ride - and this doesn't show when simply comparing spec sheets.

Bought an Asus Transformer

[foxalopex]

I actually tried out both tablets in the store (Ipad2 versus Asus Transformer) and I have to admit I eventually sided with the Transformer. It has a much nicer looking front end interface and the web browser seemed to work better (which will likely be my primary use). I also liked the fact that I could get Linux going on the Asus EEE Pad as well and the overall hardware wasn't as tightly restricted. Maybe in the future if I'm bored of Android, I can go full out for Linux. My recommendation? If you like flexibility I would definitely get the Android 3.1 based tablets. If you want something simple then an Ipad2. In many ways this is like the difference between a Mac and a PC. I suspect in the following years the Android will probably win out via sheer flexibility as how the X86/Win machines have won out in the personal computing market.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[daid303]

But having your sources open for everyone to see is more open then need to use an Apple OS, and register to even view app developer documentation.

Re:Only things that matter:

[oakgrove]

Well then nothing can access 100 percent of the web as there is always some site somewhere that isn't compatible with your kit. What a stupid argument.

Re:Only things that matter:

[Dog-Cow]

The point is that neither tablet platform can do so. That you missed that says a lot about your ability to reason. And it's not anything good.

Re:Only things that matter:

[Dog-Cow]

That is a lie, proven so by Real Life(tm). You should have heard of it, but I guess you haven't.

Unreasonable hatred is ugly.

Re:Only things that matter:

[webmistressrachel]

I said either, as in neither tablet does those. That you missed that says a lot about your ability to contribute positively here. Move along.

Now we know you're lying

[Quila]

You have a girlfriend?

Re:Now we know you're lying

[ozmanjusri]

Strange but true.

Even more weirdly, I'll be celebrating my 50th birthday next month, own a Mercedes and live in a nice house, not a basement.

Well...

[NitroWolf]

Well, hardware aside, there's also the fact that the iPad 2 is running that stinking hippo carcass rotting in the field that's called IOS. Someone please, for the love of god, put IOS out of it's misery. It's such an antiquated, creaky piece of shit. Apple really needs to catch up with modern user interfaces. Fisher Price UI went out of style years ago.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[s73v3r]

As opposed to the many locked down versions of Android (Hello, AT&T) that require the same thing to get the "freedom" you were talking about?

Re:Or jailbreak it

[s73v3r]

Because you're absolutely forced to apply every update the second it's released? You can't wait for the community to break it?

Re:OT Anecdote as Data

[3dr]

The display XOOMs (and other devices) are tortured devices. The XOOM on display at a nearby Verizon was running some live background, plus having all kinds of widgets across all screens. It was a mess, and crashed within a couple minutes of me picking it up.

That said, my XOOM runs great, we use it all the time to check weather, music and maps. It's a great device. What we like about it is the device just floats around the house, so whenever we need to look up something, it's right there, and it's a more usable screen than a smartphone. I don't remember it ever crashing with our normal use.

Oh, and I just tried accessing your test page, and it came up fine.

Re:Only things that matter:

[exomondo]

In fact, it's fairly clear the exact opposite is the case.

Oh come on, that's only the case if you actually believe he doesn't know that the ipad dominates the market yet lacks those features, which i think it's pretty obvious he does.

Re:Galaxy Tab is the discerning user's choice

[AK Marc]

Apple sells the old obselete models along the new ones, resulting in a "support" period of under 12 months from the last official retail sale to disontinuing of software support. Yes, if you look at the iPhone history, there are periods where security updates were ended within 6 months of the sale of the last retail product affected. I don't call 6 months support to be adequate. In fact, here, that's criminally negligent. Apple has pitifully short software support for their i_Phones, which is why I'll not buy a third. The first two are orphaned and the vast majority of apps offered for sale are incompatible. They won't even filter apps in searches to those that will install on your device when Apple is artificially restricting them in the first place.

Re:Only things that matter:

[webmistressrachel]

Teehee AC - you are a biter aren't you? Let me deal with your points one by one. I'm not a Mac user, my tablet of choice is the hp tx2 and tm2 series, both of which are convertible PC tablets, upgraded by myself to Windows 7. Not only do they run everything, but they game. Regarding undeserved entitlement, am I not entitle to enjoy what I choose to purchase, and recommend what I think is the best tool for the jobs I have in mind?

And regarding my signature and my score, I get mod-bombed regularly, and often HAVE to post at 0, making the assertion in my sig a fact.

And regarding personal grandeur, I'm well aware of what I contribute and am capable of, and can hold my own, thank you. Why do I get the feeling you're the same idiot who mod-bombs me, and posts personally orientated replies to my on-topic comments whenever he sees them?

Let me guess, you're an inadequate male who is starved of sex and has seen pics of me, then been told to fuck off in a previous discussion, by me and others. I don't have illusions of grandeur, thank you. But I do value myself - which you don't seem to at all. Hence the mod-bombing and these trolls.

So, as I said, move along.

Re:Or jailbreak it

[shmlco]

True. That is, when Google decides to release the source....