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Why Microtransactions In Games Are Amoral

Sludge writes "Graham Jans, a founder of the Vancouver Design Dojo and designer of Zombie Minesweeper, provides well-thought-out reasons why microtransactions in games are an amoral concept that can be used for good or evil, defying the typical knee-jerk reaction to Zynga-style use of microtransactions as a cynical tool designed to siphon the maximum amount of money from your wallet. Quoting: 'As well, such a thing could be a tool for benevolence. A developer could tune the length between releases to offer just a little more content for the same price, if they felt that was the right thing to do. In fact, most of the factors in microtransactions work this way. The negative reputation these systems have comes from factors that are tuned to maximize profit and abuse players for their money. But that's not an inherent trait in the system; you could just as easily use it to ensure your own bankruptcy!'"

209 comments

  1. Microtransactions make me ill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gated content and microtransactions. First one's always free, etc. etc. This shit is like drug dealing.

    1. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      Well, except that it's wholly voluntary. I don't see a problem with it really, though I usually choose not to get in to things utilizing that model. With the genuinely nasty drugs, otoh, the seller leverages your addiction... where the buyer has less of a choice in the matter.

      In short, Zynga can do whatever they want. I simply choose not to play their shitty games or give them any money. Same for console DLC that doesn't deliver significant value in addition to what I already bought.

    2. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by causality · · Score: 1

      Well, except that it's wholly voluntary. I don't see a problem with it really, though I usually choose not to get in to things utilizing that model. With the genuinely nasty drugs, otoh, the seller leverages your addiction... where the buyer has less of a choice in the matter.

      Is there any adult person who doesn't realize things like crack and heroin are addictive? I consider that voluntary too. You choose to put yourself into a position where you have a weakness that can so easily be leveraged. It really gets old watching people play the victim when they do things like this. You really don't want the kind of society and government they would create. Openly stated evil is much easier to recognize and correct than misguided good intentions.

      From the summary:

      The negative reputation these systems have comes from factors that are tuned to maximize profit and abuse players for their money. But that's not an inherent trait in the system; you could just as easily use it to ensure your own bankruptcy!

      You could say that the formation of plutocracies and the concentration of wealth and political influence is not an inherent trait in the system of unregulated or poorly regulated (think: regulatory capture) capitalism. But left unchecked this is exactly what tends to happen. It's repeatable.

      The problem with microtransactions in games is they provide so many different ways to milk the customers. There are many more opportunities to do that with this arrangement than there would be with a flat monthly fee.

      The question then is how much faith you have in average people to immediately abandon the game, in droves, the moment it starts becoming abusive. That's what you would need, for the first undeniable sign of abuse to be suddenly and severely punished. Otherwise it becomes entrenched and it becomes like government's game of incrementing by tiny little baby steps, each one justified and excused by various mouthpieces.

      To continue the analogy to offline commerce ... do companies that abuse their customers worry and live in fear of drastic severe boycotts from masses of people who just aren't going to take it? No, instead the "consumers" (a degrading term) find that it isn't perfectly convenient to maintain a boycott, that they might have to actually go a few days or weeks without some frivolous luxury they don't really need, that no one else is doing it anyway, etc. So companies do more or less whatever they want knowing that people will continue doing business with them.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    3. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Well, except that it's wholly voluntary.

      So's drug dealing.

    4. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Eh, it doesn't bother me. If anything, I like the current trend towards Free to Play in MMO's supplemented with a cash store. If a game is horribly crippled without a cash purchase, I delete the game and move on. If it's worth playing and I enjoy the game, I have no problem throwing a few dollars at it if it results in the game being more enjoyable to me.

      Case in point, Lord of the Rings: Online. It was a cool game, I played the beta years ago, but it just wasn't worth $15 a month to me. They moved to Free to Play with a cash store and I started playing again and ended up giving them about $25 over the course of the 6 months I played, and my account is still sitting there with all my mules if I ever do decide to play again. Champion's Online was worth a good 3 months of entertainment and I never spent a dime on that. I've been playing Global Agenda: Free Agent for a couple months, haven't spent a dime on that, either. I'm willing to give almost any Free to Play game a chance, and if it's worth spending money on, I will.

      Now, DLC is a different story, as people are already buying a game up front for a hefty sum ($60 usually, even more in Europe, they seriously get ripped off) and all it does is encourage developers to release 2/3 of a game for full price now and then charge another $10-$15 to put the missing content back in. Modern Warfare 2, for instance, shipped with the first DLC content on the disc itself on launch, a month down the road you paid your $10 and they unlocked it for you. That is fucking bullshit. The way the number of included tracks declined with each subsequent Guitar Hero/Rock Band release after GHIII was more evidence of shady rip-off behavior which is why I stopped buying the games. I'm not a fan of the direction that console games are going as far as that goes, nor am I a fan of the way Steam is applying that console model to the PC.

      But in itself I don't have a problem with microtransactions, I have a problem when it's misapplied or used nefariously by allowing people to play most of the game but then slamming down a content wall without warning. In the end, you just have to do your research before you hand over your money. Complaining about it after the fact does next to nothing, and the publishers of these games know that.

    5. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      My favourite to date is Age of Empires Online. Shows you all this "great" content you're missing (forcing some of it to stay in your few inventory slots) and tells you exactly which thing you need to buy to "unlock" it. Better yet, they create achievements which require the purchase of this content to provide further "incentive" to purchase.

      When looking at the content provided vs previous AoEs, AoE:O will actually cost about $400 for the same content and all the content will disappear once the servers are shut off (game requires an always online connection and is an RTS with a persistent city which is nothing more than window dressing). Previously you could pop in your disc and play any time.

      $eason Passes are my personal favourite in the latest m*cro-transaction world where it's a fixed price for 6 months of content that's yours forever! (forever meaning until they shut off the servers a few years from now). They give a % of savings associated with it - unfortunately they can pretty much release anything they want and put any price on it to fulfill that obligation. Announced content could be delayed and replaced with anything they deem appropriate.

      How there aren't consumer protection laws against this sort of thing I'll never understand.

    6. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the buying part. There are lots of reasons people turn to addictive drugs, even beside addiction itself. Drug dealers prey on serious physiological and mental weaknesses. I don't think that's really the case with people that make video games, aside from capitalizing on people with mild impulse control problems... but you could say the same of someone that makes cupcakes.

      The idea that they're the same seems absurd to me.

    7. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      Is there any adult person who doesn't realize things like crack and heroin are addictive? I consider that voluntary too.

      Well, there's your first and second problem with this theory. Not everyone that uses drugs is an adult, nor are they usually properly functioning, healthy individuals capable of good decision making. There in-lies the whole business model. Not the same as offering to sell you a $1 hat in a game because you like the color pink.

      You could say that the formation of plutocracies and the concentration of wealth and political influence is not an inherent trait in the system of unregulated or poorly regulated (think: regulatory capture) capitalism. [blah, blah blah]

      It's farmville, dude.

      The problem with microtransactions in games is they provide so many different ways to milk the customers. There are many more opportunities to do that with this arrangement than there would be with a flat monthly fee.

      How does any of this have anything to do with what we're talking about? I still don't think microtransactions in shitty games are the same as dealing drugs.

      Etc, etc, etc, etc.

    8. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by causality · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the buying part. There are lots of reasons people turn to addictive drugs, even beside addiction itself. Drug dealers prey on serious physiological and mental weaknesses.

      You only feel that way because those drugs are illegal, therefore only those willing to become branded as "criminals" use them. The only ones you know about are the ones who either get caught or have to do crazy things to feed their addiction. The responsible drug users look just like people who don't do drugs at all. You won't see them high in public for the same reason you won't see a responsible drinker drunk in public.

      Lots of people are addicted to alcohol; we call them alcoholics. This doesn't mean you and I couldn't responsibly enjoy a beer and get on with our lives. The important question then is what makes one person use these things responsibly while the other cannot be trusted with them?

      I don't think that's really the case with people that make video games, aside from capitalizing on people with mild impulse control problems... but you could say the same of someone that makes cupcakes.

      I tend to look at the problem/weakness instead of the temptation it creates to exploit it. If I really think Microsoft makes terrible products, for example, then I don't blame Microsoft for that, I blame a market that so greatly rewards terrible products. With a market like that it's only a matter of time until someone meets that demand. You have to identify which is the cart and which is the horse.

      The fact is, being a responsible adult who is not impulsive or hyper-emotional or reactive, who is not easily diverted from one's goals, just isn't cool anymore. The only people still doing it are those who never gave a damn about how trendy or popular something is. They have always been a minority. The rest think they can instantly gratify every possible little desire they will ever have and can't comprehend the disappointment they are building. In the meantime, plenty of companies will make lots of money promising instant satisfaction by saying you can have this frivolous thing and you can have it RIGHT FUCKING NOW. This is nothing new.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    9. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by causality · · Score: 1

      Well, there's your first and second problem with this theory.

      The problem with yours is that drugs are here to stay and planned, coordinated, well-funded large-scale efforts to eradicate them measure their progress in terms of reducing their growth. Since they aren't going away we need a different plan. What do you do with a situation you cannot stop? You find responsible ways to manage it instead.

      Not everyone that uses drugs is an adult

      For that reason the legal drug, alcohol, is age-restricted. Do those who are underage still obtain and consume it? You bet. There is not and has never been a substitute for actually being a parent. This again is nothing new. What's really amusing is that for those under 21, illegal drugs are actually easier to obtain than alcohol because dealers only care about cash. There is no ID check to circumvent.

      nor are they usually properly functioning, healthy individuals capable of good decision making.

      That's a rare creature in any arena. Lots of people who fail that description vote, drive, form strong opinions about things they don't understand, etc. That they might also do drugs is no surprise to any realist. This fact means it is useless to talk about whether people do drugs. But it is useful to talk about which model of use we should encourage.

      It's farmville, dude.

      Have you ever heard the saying (dating back to ancient Hermetic thought), "as above, so below"? Or the notion of a fractal self-similar universe, if you like the abstract method? These games of ours are so often microcosms of more significant real-life patterns. That's the point.

      How does any of this have anything to do with what we're talking about? I still don't think microtransactions in shitty games are the same as dealing drugs.

      You should ask that question to the person who brought up drugs. I will offer my best guess as to how it came into the discussion.

      Spending money on a pink hat for your character in an MMO is a frivolous vanity purchase of something you don't really need. You could characterize casual drug use the same way. I believe that's why the comparison was made.

      Just as the more stupid drug users get addicted and find themselves at a disadvantage compared to the dealer, people in online games often feel a need to belong and feel part of a crowd. I'll probably catch flak for this but I'll go ahead and say that the dumber, more naive, less-wise sort of person is the one who cares about following a crowd more than they care about being an individual and remaining true to themselves.

      The point is they have a reason other than genuine need or utility to purchase something. When everyone else has their little useless vanity items it creates pressure on those who don't. It makes them stand out. It is a powerful drive not to be underestimated. The only real winner here is the gaming company. They get to extract real wealth (legal tender) in exchange for something of little or no intrinsic value. That's a nice racket if you can get it, but most of the rest of us have to perform useful work to get our living.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    10. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "This shit is like drug dealing."

      Addicts choose to be addicted. Tough shit.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    11. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      If anything, I like the current trend towards Free to Play in MMO's supplemented with a cash store.

      Definitely. Particularly with smaller indie games, they may not have a choice but to offer the game free if they want to get anyone to try it at all. Who's going to fork over payment information, let alone commit to a monthly fee before they know anything about a company? I've got a smallish superhero MMO, and if I demanded a monthly fee to play, I simply wouldn't have any players. But a pure donation model, with no benefit to the player, also won't cut it. My only option is to have something like a microtransaction process.

    12. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Drug dealers prey on serious physiological and mental weaknesses.

      No, no they don't. Drug dealers generally like stable, middle class clients. The absolute _worst_ client for a drug dealer is someone who is penniless and desperate, because that will likely bring lots of attention to that dealer.

      I've seen dealers turn away people with the money because they don't want them as clients.

      Now, desperate users entering into dealership to sate their habit will often take anyone as customers. And it's these people who will hit the headlines, and it's these people who most dealers will avoid like the plague, and it's these people who will get caught.

      ps. I'm a previous cocaine & plenty of other drugs user, Not vulnerable, not got any major weaknesses, just enjoyed drugs.

    13. Re:Microtransactions make me ill by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Is there any adult person who doesn't realize things like crack and heroin are addictive?

      Sure, and microtransactions are at the point that I now actively avoid F2P microtransaction-based games. Maybe it's unfair. Maybe there's some that do microtransactions in a reasonably ethical manner.

      Maybe there's some forms of crack that are totally healthy for you and cure cancer.

      But it doesn't matter. The reputation of crack and microtrannies are tainted beyond redemption now.

  2. Making Money is Immoral? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So essentially, making money is immoral?

    Maybe we should all work for free, or uss the barter system.

    Or maybe we should convert to communism?

    Or we can live in caves.

    1. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      So essentially, making money is immoral?

      No - amoral. That is, neither right nor wrong inherently.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It said amoral, not immoral. They're different.

      Not only that, but it didn't say that making money is amoral. It said that this particular way of doing so is. I doubt you think that every possible way of making money is a good thing.

    3. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      Amoral = doesn't affect morality

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    4. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Toe,+The · · Score: 1

      No, it's Amoral.
      There's a difference, as noted above. Look it up.

    5. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, essentially, paying less is immoral?
      Maybe we should all give all of our money, and get nothing for them?
      Or maybe we should convert to communism? (funny, but communism = central planning, exactly what the Fed is doing...)
      Actually, better to live in caves, than in paper bags, i mean houses.

    6. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      So essentially, making money is immoral?

      Making money, just by itself, is not. However, the ways in which you make money definitely can be. If you are grossly overcharging in the face of no competition, then that is immoral. If you are charging outrageous amounts of interest (usury), then that is immoral.

      Microtransactions by themselves are not good or bad. It's how they are used. If you offer some small bits of content, that don't completely alter the way the game is played or balanced, then that's fine. Even things like offering new maps is fine. However, if you use microtransactions for things that completely alter the balance of the game, and essentially allow someone to pay to win, then that is immoral.

    7. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If you are grossly overcharging in the face of no competition, then that is immoral.

      No, if you are grossly overcharging at any time, that's immoral. That's a tautology due to the use of the terms "gross" and "immoral".

      If you are charging outrageous amounts of interest (usury), then that is immoral.

      Here we have a bit of help from the legal system which defines maximum limits for interest for commercial transactions, and thus "usury" isn't a tautology for "outrageous" or "immoral". However, you may consider a 25% interest rate for a loan to an extremely bad risk "outrageous"; a mathematician may realize that the 25% rate is necessary for loans to such persons in order to cover the expected losses from failures to repay, and the borrower may accept such terms because he needs the money and nobody else will loan it to him at a better rate.

      However, if you use microtransactions for things that completely alter the balance of the game, and essentially allow someone to pay to win, then that is immoral.

      Why? If you know ahead of time that things that will alter the balance of the game are for sale and you choose to play the game anyway, why is that sale "immoral"? It may be immoral to make such sales secretly, but if the rules are clear that you can buy what you want, how can that be immoral?

    8. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Why? If you know ahead of time that things that will alter the balance of the game are for sale and you choose to play the game anyway, why is that sale "immoral"? It may be immoral to make such sales secretly, but if the rules are clear that you can buy what you want, how can that be immoral?

      Very easily, once you realize that just because you can buy something, doesn't make it right. It is completely fucking immoral, as the entire game basically breaks down into who's willing to spend the most.

    9. Re:Making Money is Immoral? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Very easily, once you realize that just because you can buy something, doesn't make it right.

      "It is immoral to buy things because buying things is immoral" is a tautology. And an opinion. Why is it immoral? I can grow cotton plants in my backyard, harvest, spin, weave, and sew myself a shirt. Or I can buy one. Why is buying a shirt instead of growing it myself immoral?

      It is completely fucking immoral,

      Yes, you said that. Why is it immoral?

      as the entire game basically breaks down into who's willing to spend the most.

      Ok. So I'll ask again, why is this immoral? The game was written by and belongs to someone else, so why do you think you get to define what the "good" rules are? The rules are known up-front. You know ahead of time what those rules are. If you don't like the rules, don't play. It really is that simple.

      Is this a case of "I want to play that game by the rules I want to play them by, I don't care what the game authors want, and any rule I don't like is immoral?" (Ok, "unethical", but you get the idea.)

  3. I like how Champs Online does it by danbuter · · Score: 1, Interesting

    You can buy new costume parts, new archetypes, and some in-game bonuses. None are game required, just cool.

  4. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. Re:Obligatory by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      My GF did this... Started playing LoL and sunk $50 into buying Riot Points in her first week so she could get champions. I thought it was ridiculous, but I've been guilty of spending RP on new skins (which add nothing at ALL to the game, just look cool).

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
  5. EA sells you an advantage... by KreAture · · Score: 1

    BF Heroes is a good example of microtransactions gone ape...
    You can buy yourself superior firepower, but most times it doesn't even last. Often you just rent it for a day, week, month...

    1. Re:EA sells you an advantage... by cHiphead · · Score: 1

      That's even worse, you are 'renting' items that expire, where the only work associated is an hour creating the small 3d model and modifying a few lines of text in a config file somewhere that states fire rate, damage, reload time. Its not a Picasso painting or an intensive programming mod. Its a way to siphon money out of people, when its the people themselves that are essentially creating the valuable 'content' of BF Heroes (multiplayer servers require players for the real content of interaction and gameplay, the pretty pictures are actually secondary)

      --

      This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:EA sells you an advantage... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I never really got the idea why I should bother to play such a game altogether.

      If I do not insert money, I play an extra, a mobile, player controlled target for someone who did.

      If I do insert money, I get to shoot sitting ducks without a challenge. If I want that, I could just as well play any shooter on lowest level without continuously throwing money at them.

      Why the heck should I play that game at all?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:EA sells you an advantage... by KreAture · · Score: 1

      Which is why I stopped playing. I played when it was beta and when it was new. Then you could pay for fun stuff, like the ability to wave "haha" to your enemy or a skull and crossbones mask or hat for that added fun when you bested someone. When they started selling insane wepons I logged off for the last time. I've not been on since but I have followed a few rants in some forums to see if they continued down the same path and indeed they appeared to for a while, but now little is happening alltogether.

    4. Re:EA sells you an advantage... by bigrockpeltr · · Score: 1

      yup same thing here i dont play since they started selling improved weapons. I also remember clearly (while still in early beta) that they promised not to let people who pay have an advantage over free players; which i thought was cool.So i could understand paying for apparel and clothing accessories and even exp boosts.

      The same problem exists with Need For Speed World now... free players are being shafted where the paid for content is by far superior to the in-game-cash cars. The least they can do is also offer a rediculously high in-game-cash price for the good cars/parts.

      --
      $ unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes,fsck,fsck,fsck,umount, sleep
    5. Re:EA sells you an advantage... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure an item might just need a model, 2d art, config changes, gamebuild, QA, playtesting, marketing and clientpatches.
      The thing is that free2play games actually pay for more developement (like subscription based games). Thats why a game like bf heroes are getting new maps and game modes 2 years after release.

  6. They're not? by intellitech · · Score: 0

    Amoral:

    amoral/môrl/
    Adjective: Lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.

    Immoral:

    immoral/imôrl/
    Adjective: Not conforming to accepted standards of morality.

    What exactly am I missing here?

    --
    vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat.
    1. Re:They're not? by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Amoral may or may not conform to accepted standards of morality. An amoral act may be either moral or immoral, the point is you don't care either way.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    2. Re:They're not? by SomePgmr · · Score: 2

      I don't think you're missing anything. They're different. One is lack-of, one is contra.

    3. Re:They're not? by Atmchicago · · Score: 1

      One is unconcerned with the principle, the other differs from an accepted societal norm. The latter could change depending on the society, the former doesn't care.

      --

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    4. Re:They're not? by Rhaban · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To put it in D&D terms:

      Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Good => Moral
      Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Neutral => Amoral
      Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Evil => Immoral

    5. Re:They're not? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      When applied to a moral actor, there is no practical difference between amoral and immoral. A person who chooses their actions without concern as to whether or not they are moral (an amoral person), is unlikely to behave significantly better than a person who conciously chooses immoral actions.
      However, when applied to actual actions, there is a world of difference between amoral and immoral. An immoral action is always morally wrong, no matter what the context. An amoral action is neither morally right nor morally wrong, in and of itself. Whether an amoral actions is morally wrong or morally right is determined by the context in which the action is taken.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    6. Re:They're not? by PenquinCoder · · Score: 2

      Ahh, that explains everything in an easy to understand, nerd approved format. I approve.

    7. Re:They're not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, all of those have a moral sense, at best you might say CN or even TN might be amoral, but even that is a stretch given some of the interpretations of those alignments.

      You would be better off going with the example of unintelligent entities as lacking alignment at all.

    8. Re:They're not? by Toe,+The · · Score: 2

      You might be on to something... perhaps all journalism should be expressed in D&D terms.

      Weather: there is a 2d6 chance of rain today...

      Traffic: looks like a car had an unfortunate random encounter with tractor trailer on the...

      Sports: X clearly has an advantage in Strength, but Y has a full three points higher Dexterity, which...

      The possibilities are limitless!

    9. Re:They're not? by milkmage · · Score: 1

      think of it this way.

      immoral - "bad"
      amoral - don't give a shit.

    10. Re:They're not? by nschubach · · Score: 1

      I might actually tune the news in instead of tuning it out if it was done in that manner.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    11. Re:They're not? by David+Chappell · · Score: 1

      Amoral:

      amoral/môrl/
      Adjective: Lacking a moral sense; unconcerned with the rightness or wrongness of something.

      Immoral:

      immoral/imôrl/
      Adjective: Not conforming to accepted standards of morality.

      What exactly am I missing here?

      The difference is that one of them (amoral) refers to a lack of interest in the other (namely the question whether a particular act is moral or not).

      It seems though that the original poster is using the word amoral in an extremely non-standard way. I think he is trying to say that providing for in-game transactions is not in and of itself moral or immoral. In other words, the concept is morally neutral.

      In standard usage of the word in-game transactions would not be described as amoral because they are not reasoning beings able to consider moral questions.

      Describing an act as amoral also implies that there is a plausible moral question which the actor has ignored. The behavior of James Bond is amoral because he goes around violating behavior norms without once asking whether his actions are proper.

    12. Re:They're not? by Forestwalker · · Score: 0

      Ok whet to a Latin translation Forum , No comments .. Sure I am not a Latin student.. lemme in on the Joke.. what does :: vos nescitis quicquam, nec cogitatis quia expedit nobis ut unus moriatur homo pro populo et non tota gens pereat Mean ? Is it rude or some thing? I think the Latin folks were not interested in helping me figure this out. The Word for Word Latin Translation didn't wash.

    13. Re:They're not? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      moral:
      if (option1.morality > option2.morality) choose(option1); else choose(option2);

      immoral:
      if(option1.morality > option2.morality) choose(option2); else choose(option1);

      amoral:
      choose(option1);

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    14. Re:They're not? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amoral = morality is irrelevant; may violated moral codes or may not but has no consideration of moral codes.

      Immoral = violation of accepted moral codes

        As an example inanimate tools such at hammers, swords, and guns are considered to be amoral in nature. Their use however is often immoral depending on the choices of the person wielding them. People can be amoral as well, sometimes committing immoral acts and sometimes committing moral acts but without concern for the morality of the act.

    15. Re:They're not? by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      A person who chooses their actions without concern as to whether or not they are moral (an amoral person), is unlikely to behave significantly better than a person who conciously chooses immoral actions.

      I doubt there are very many people that choose an immoral action BECAUSE it is immoral. Most immoral actions comes from a combination of amorality (don't care about the moral implications) and greed, anger, laziness, etc. (some characteristic that makes the immoral action more attractive). Example: most people steal b/c they want something and don't care that stealing is immoral. They don't go out and steal specifically in order to be performing an immoral act. There are certainly exceptions to this, but I think it is true of the general masses.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    16. Re:They're not? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Agnostic vs Atheist. Same idea.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    17. Re:They're not? by Hylandr · · Score: 1

      Chaotic Neutral

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    18. Re:They're not? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      I was aware of this. I was using that comparison to explain that while there is no practical difference between describing someone as an immoral person and describing them as an amoral person, there is indeed a difference between describing an act as immoral and describing it as amoral.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    19. Re:They're not? by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      A person who chooses their actions without concern as to whether or not they are moral (an amoral person), is unlikely to behave significantly better than a person who conciously chooses immoral actions.

      If one interprets Morality as done for the right reasons without sound ethical argument, then you are flat out wrong. One extracts much more material benefit from others by treating them well than they do from a one time robbery. Very rarely does one go down an unethical path and prosper, long term. I do nothing out of morality, as I define it, because I believe the right (ethically) are the correct actions (logically beneficial). I am amoral, however I would contend that I behave significantly better than the Jimmy Swaggarts and Jerry Falwells of this world.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    20. Re:They're not? by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

      Here is an analogy of OP

      CHAR != INT

      --
      "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    21. Re:They're not? by causality · · Score: 1

      God dammit... anyone else remember when we could get on with the discussion instead of wasting dozens of posts on the meanings of dictionary words?

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    22. Re:They're not? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      accepted standards of morality

      The Romans already knew that there really was no point arguing about subjective things. Yet here we are 2000 years later doing the same damned thing.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    23. Re:They're not? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      So, if I interpret things your way, I am wrong. Of course, since I don't do that, I am not. I interpret that someone who chooses to behave morally is not amoral. Furthermore, I would contend that Jimmy Swaggart was not a moral actor, at best, he was an amoral actor (I use the past tense because I have heard nothing about him in several years and therefore have no opinion of his current behavior). I do not reference the morality of Jerry Falwell because there were things I "knew" about his actions that reflected badly on him that I later learned were false. At this point, I do not have first hand knowledge of any immoral behavior on the part of Jerry Falwell and because of my experience with other "knowledge" i had of him turning out to be false, I no longer make any judgement about his morality one way or the other. You claim that you behave morally, therefore you are not an amoral person. The reasons for choosing moral action does not matter as to whether or not that action is moral.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    24. Re:They're not? by causality · · Score: 1

      accepted standards of morality

      The Romans already knew that there really was no point arguing about subjective things. Yet here we are 2000 years later doing the same damned thing.

      Tell me about it. I almost wish our species had some kind of ancestral memory that was an easily-accessible part of our everyday waking consciousness. Then maybe, just maybe we could actually learn from the past instead of repeating the same mistakes and the same useless tendencies.

      Of course the only bad thing is, you'd have no privacy at all. At least not from your offspring. They'd know all about that dishonest thing you did 3 years before they were born. It'd be interesting, to say the least.

      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    25. Re:They're not? by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      My point is that I don't choose my actions based on morality at all, therefore I am amoral. I don't believe in any moral values, I believe in intrinsic value. The social contract benefits all, those who break it benefit least. I don't know one good thing about Falwell, and I don't live far from Lynchburg.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    26. Re:They're not? by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Then how can you claim that any of your actions are moral? You cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim to not believe in morality and claim that you behave morally.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    27. Re:They're not? by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you're confusing morality with ethics. Some confuse ethics with the study of morals. Morals are more often put forward as if they were facts e.g. "It's wrong to lie". Ethics is based on the logical reasoning behind those suggested facts. It's not that I don't lie because "it's wrong", it's that I don't lie because I know that people will eventually notice, and then they'll never believe me when I'm not lying. It's not that I don't steal because of any religious work, I don't steal because theft destroys interpersonal and business relationships, which are often far more valuable than any perceived immediate gain.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    28. Re:They're not? by Drogo007 · · Score: 1

      The fact that the guy you replied to didn't realize the submission meant exactly what it said - microtransactions are, in and of themselves, neither good or bad. They simply are. It's how the developer uses them that determines if it's good or bad.

      But people don't work that way. Once some "thing" that is not inherently "good" or "bad" has a "bad" association in someone's mind, that thing is "bad". Never mind that the next instance of "thing" that they meet may be used in a "good" manner - they've already internalized the "thing == bad" rule and will blindly apply that to every other instance of "thing" that they meet.

    29. Re:They're not? by Smauler · · Score: 1

      The Romans also already knew that there really was no point arguing about a couple of other issues too. Don't claim we've not advanced from there.

  7. And making money is amoral too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is ok to charge more for your services than you pay to provide them. It is neither morally lofty, nor evil, to seek profitable ventures. This is simply how our economy works, and how it is supposed to work.

    It is economically harmful to prevent competition. Whether or not that is also immoral is up for debate.

    But in the face of open competition, there is nothing wrong with grossly overcharging. If people like your service that much more, and are willing to pay for it, then so be it. If not, you will just go out of business. And it is all ok.

    It is only cheap bastards who want something for nothing that think charging for stuff is immoral.

  8. Football Superstars by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

    Football Superstars did that nicely for microtransactions, you can buy XP directly, going from level 1 to level 100 cost may be a little bit less than $300.

  9. Microtransactions are... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... not amoral since the money you spend is gone and the game company still owns the game. All that money you invest is meaningless the second the one of the higher ups in the game company decides to shut-down the game or it goes out of business. This is the problem with game companies who try to sell 'games as a service'.

    This also happens with games that are locked down to a service like Xbox live or their own service (steam sdk multiplayer lockdown some games have - see: supreme commander 2) and certain console games that ran their own server/master server (See: Burnout 3 for Playstation2) which later shut down their servers so you are SOL.

    This is what I really hate about the game industry's move to try to enclose their games behind the rather dickish language of "games as as a service" and "microtransations". In the end it's just a neo-feudal model of extracting money from people without giving anything real back in return.

    1. Re:Microtransactions are... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      In the end it's just a neo-feudal model of extracting money from people without giving anything real back in return.

      If you don't count actually making the game as 'anything real'.

      I'm not a fan of microtransactions, and if they're poorly implemented they can really harm a game, but ultimately the people who spend that money are the ones paying for the game to exist.

    2. Re:Microtransactions are... by AxemRed · · Score: 2

      People spend money on all kinds of things that don't result in getting something "real" in return. Many of these things do give us something intangible in return though: entertainment.

    3. Re:Microtransactions are... by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      I can't entirely agree or disagree with you, but for the customer it is a matter of, do they get their moneys worth out of it. Are movie theiters immoral? IMO they are considerably worse, when I buy an item in a game, I get a preview of exactly what it is and what it does. I rarely pay more then $5 for it, and I can roughly estimate how much enjoyment I will get out of having it, no it won't be there forever, but unless the game is on it's last legs it can be safely assumed it will be there for at least a year. Someone going to a movie on opening night, is basing their purchase decision on 15 seconds to 1 minute of out of context footage of the movie, even if enjoyable the movie will be at max 3 hours of enjoyment. Now where in game items can go completely evil, a game starts out free to play, items are mostly cosmetic, as the game progresses, they start leaking in game effecting items, small slight, barely significant, then start either ramping up the difficulty of the enemies, or making PVP a larger part of the game, and then steadilly increasing the power and necesity of the cash shop items. When a game starts out as one thing, then switches half way through when you've already put time/money into it, that is where I find it borderline Immoral. When the terms are clear from the start of the game, that is where I consider it perfectly reasonable.

    4. Re:Microtransactions are... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      When I rent my house, people pay me and I still own the house. Is renting immoral?

      If not, what's the difference?

    5. Re:Microtransactions are... by Shrike82 · · Score: 1

      That's just your opinion. Don't confuse it with fact. You cite a few specific examples, but that doesn't make for a convincing argument. I can happily counter you with an anecdote of my own.

      I spent a few pounds sterling on some in-game items for Team Fortress 2; some gifts that could be dished out to random players on the community server I play at. It was an event night, lots of people spread across the multiple servers, lots of gifts flying around, lots of fun and enjoyment being had. The small amount of money I spent on in game items hopefully brought a smile to a few people's faces, and definitely gave me a bit of a pleasure at giving something back to the community I enjoyed being part of. The fact that some actual cash had been expended to make this happen gave a bit of meaning to the act. If gift items were totally free there'd be no point.

      Please explain how this translates, in any way, to microtransactions being inherently immoral.

      --
      You can advertise in this sig from as little as £99.99 a month!
    6. Re:Microtransactions are... by kgeiger · · Score: 1

      Garbage. These companies exist to earn money, which they pay their employees and invest in new games.

      What did YOU get in exchange? Entertainment. Don't want to pay? Don't play.

      --
      Vision with execution is hallucination.
    7. Re:Microtransactions are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the end it's just a neo-feudal model of extracting money from people without giving anything real back in return.

      No, in the end it's entertainment. Those that think that there should be something given back other than entertainment are the delusional ones.

    8. Re:Microtransactions are... by 2short · · Score: 1

      "All that money you invest is meaningless..."

      Paying for subscription-based games is not meant to be an investment, and is optional HTH.

    9. Re:Microtransactions are... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      You'd have a point if the game industry WASN'T built on the boxed product model where you actually own the game, now they industry is trying to reneg on the deal. In other words we're watching a steady slide towards dictatorship. When games have their functionality removed/enclosed/reduced in value that is clearly not an "amoral" thing to be doing to your customers in which there is a history of boxed fully functioning games that aren't butchered. The game industries bitching and whining over used game sales is bad enough.

      See below:
      http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20022957-17.html

    10. Re:Microtransactions are... by brkello · · Score: 1

      Gaming has evolved. It is not a boxed product model any more. They still offer that for the brick and mortar stores, but now you can just pull them down off of the web. Technically, you aren't buying the game but just a license. You may not like this model, but that doesn't make it immoral. You have this problem a lot on Slashdot seem to have. You think that because something can happen, it makes it bad. It doesn't matter if it isn't going to happen, or hasn't happened...the fact that they could is enough to freak you out. I play games and enjoy them a ton. There are a lot of great new games coming out every month. Your idea that they are butchered and not fully functional just isn't based in reality. DLC can add some more play time...but I never had a play experience where I thought a game was incomplete without the DLC. Just don't buy games if they are so bad...but you are missing out just because the groupthink on this site are more worried about what could happen rather than what is.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  10. Corporations are the problem by TheReaperD · · Score: 0

    "The negative reputation these systems have comes from factors that are tuned to maximize profit and abuse players for their money."

    What they are failing to take into account is that corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit for their shareholders or face financial and/or legal consequences. So, because of the way the two systems interact, it all but guarantees that it will be abused for profit. Therefore, we should assume that it's bad until someone can prove that their system is benign and can't be changed quickly to catch people off guard and take their money.

    --
    "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    1. Re:Corporations are the problem by 0123456 · · Score: 0

      What they are failing to take into account is that corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit

      [citation needed]

      I don't believe there's any law that says corporations have to 'abuse people'.

      Corporations may have to work to maximise profits, but that's a very different matter. Corporations who 'abuse' their customers tend to find they don't have customers for long, unless they're a government-backed monopoly.

    2. Re:Corporations are the problem by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Corporations may have to work to maximise profits,

      They mostly don't even have to do that, if that's not what their shareholders want. Even in purely economic terms, some shareholders want growth over profit. Some want to stay in a particular location rather than make more money offshore. Some want to address social or environmental concerns. Corporations have to look after the interests of their owners, but that doesn't mean the owner's interests are always "maximize profit".

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:Corporations are the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What they are failing to take into account is that corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit for their shareholders or face financial and/or legal consequences.

      I think you'll find that in reality that there is no such law, and in fact, that there are laws explicitly prohibiting them from abusing people.

      Unfortunately, they don't get caught and punished enough for those laws to have their desired effect. So I believe that we should enact corporate death penalties. I am undecided whether we kill just the corporation's executives or whether we'll need to apply some retribution upon the shareholders.

      It may be necessary to have both options.

    4. Re:Corporations are the problem by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      1. I think you are talking about publicly traded corporations. There are also a lot of large Private corporations, that are not covered by such regulation.

      2. The rule is in general to show that they are maximizing share holder equity. Or in general if the company goes down the tubes the share holders who have invested their money will get something back. Vs. Running the company with no profit and the investors (who are also anyone who owns stock including average Joe who has a work retirement plan) will be screwed if there is a problem.

      3. Companies are not out to abuse their customers. However anyone who has ran a business or has worked with with a small company or is in a high enough position to deal with the Higher Ups know running a company cost more then most people think. Cutting a penny is a big improvement. And you have competition too so you need to keep your prices high enough for you to continue and grow low enough to be on par with your other customers.

      The problem is that people don't really know this type of stuff and they push for laws that will hurt the good guys worse then the bad guys.

      Raise the taxes on the rich. Well the rich have resources to move money around to make the government see them as poor, so they get away tax free, or if they do pay more taxes then they have the governments ear, as they pay more they will get more. No matter how much democracy goes on. If you pay the government 10 million dollars a year, vs. average Joe who pays $4k. Your opinions will get the ear.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Corporations are the problem by TheReaperD · · Score: 1

      @0123456 & @MightyYar

      I can't believe people still try to argue this point. Here's your citations:

      General Rule: Fiduciary Duties owed to Corporation and Shareholders Directors of financially healthy corporations owe fiduciary duties to the corporation itself and its shareholders. See, e.g., Revlon v. MacAndrews & Forbes Holdings Inc., 506 A.2d 173, 179 (Del. 1986). Courts have generally held that directors of such corporations do not owe fiduciary duties to other constituencies, such as creditors, whose rights are purely contractual. See, e.g., Katz v. Oak Indus., 508 A.2d 873, 879 (Del. Ch. 1986). Some states have adopted “other constituencies” statutes which permit directors to consider the interests of non-shareholder constituencies, including creditors, in making corporate decisions. In general, however, these statutes are permissive5 and do not appear to create new fiduciary obligations for directors but merely allow them to consider other constituencies as a factor in determining the best interests of the shareholders; directors of a solvent corporation who favor another constituency over its shareholders may violate their duty of loyalty.

      and

      CORPORATIONS ACT 2001 - SECT 53 (a) the promotion, formation, membership, control, business, trading, transactions and dealings (whether alone or jointly with any other person or persons and including transactions and dealings as agent, bailee or trustee), property (whether held alone or jointly with any other person or persons and including property held as agent, bailee or trustee), liabilities (including liabilities owed jointly with any other person or persons and liabilities as trustee), profits and other income, receipts, losses, outgoings and expenditure of the body; and

      At this point, I'm tired of searching legalese just to prove my point. If you care, you can Google more. Really, you don't have to look any farther than recent events involving GE's international tax evasion strategy (many other companies as well), BP cutting corners leading to plant explosions and multiple major oil leaks, all the patent trolls, the mobile patent wars in general; the list goes on and on. You'd have to have your head in the sand and/or be a Randian libertarian to miss it.

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    6. Re:Corporations are the problem by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Corporations have to look after the interests of their owners, but that doesn't mean the owner's interests are always "maximize profit".

      The cases you mentioned are extremely rare. The biggest shareholders in general are banks, hedge funds, and pension funds. They want maximum profit, period. And they hold several dozen orders of magnitude more shares than anyone after what you mentioned.

    7. Re:Corporations are the problem by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      The fact that those laws aren't enforced means that they are free to abuse customers all they want, in the name of maximizing profit.

    8. Re:Corporations are the problem by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      So where does that show:

      What they are failing to take into account is that corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit

      Ah, it doesn't, does it?

      Are you seriously claiming that there's a law requiring BP to cause oil leaks?

    9. Re:Corporations are the problem by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      The fact that those laws aren't enforced means that they are free to abuse customers all they want, in the name of maximizing profit.

      The original quote claimed that there's a law forcing companies to abuse customers, not that some companies will do so in the belief that it will increase profits. The government is apparently holding a gun to their heads saying 'YOU WILL ABUSE YOUR CUSTOMERS OR ELSE!'

      Except no-one has actually managed to show such a law because it doesn't exist.

    10. Re:Corporations are the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hence the need to exact retribution upon them.

      If we'd merely taken 10% of the executives from Wall Street and the finance industry, and hung them in Times Square, then I guarantee the rest would be very very very reluctant to test the will of the people again.

      See what folks don't get is that they WERE criminals, and that they still ARE criminals, who have ruined the lives of millions, and are on their way to do it to billions.

      At some point, the rest of us have to stop looking up to the scum of the stock markets and realize that we are the heroes, not them.

    11. Re:Corporations are the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At this point, I'm tired of searching legalese just to prove my point

      The reason you're tired of it is that it hasn't done you any good. None of what you cited shows that "corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit".

    12. Re:Corporations are the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a confusion I've never been able to understand.

      "then" != "than".

    13. Re:Corporations are the problem by vux984 · · Score: 1

      The point remains though that the corporations are not remotely required "by law" to maximize profits.

      At corporation does what their OWNERS want them to do.

      While it may be true that most owners want to maximize profits there is no law anywhere to the effect that this must be the case.

    14. Re:Corporations are the problem by 2short · · Score: 1

      "At this point, I'm tired of searching legalese just to prove my point."

      Failure is exhausting.
      The first says directors of a corporation must not put the interests of others before the interests of their shareholders; it places no restrictions on what the shareholders may declare to be in their interest.
      The second might say something if you had quoted a complete sentence, but it doesn't look like it's headed anywhere relevant.

    15. Re:Corporations are the problem by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The cases you mentioned are extremely rare.

      Nonsense. Growth companies are exceedingly common - pretty much any company that doesn't pay a dividend.

      And even dividend companies are under pressure to produce steady, consistent returns. Predictability that the big institutions can use to sell their funds to people with income-centered portfolios.

      True that companies like "Ben and Jerry's" were the exception when it comes to activism, but the profit/growth balance is all over the map.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    16. Re:Corporations are the problem by julesh · · Score: 1

      I'm fed up of hearing this bullshit.

      The problem is with your reading of what these laws mean. The fiduciary duty of a director to his shareholders does not require him to be a cutthroat bastard who makes profits at every possible opportunity for those shareholders. Fiduciary duty, to quote the wikipedia article on the topic, simply means that the director "must not put his personal interests before the duty [to the shareholders], and must not profit from his position as a [director], unless the [shareholders] consent". The extensions to it you quote (which, incidentally, I believe may apply only in Delaware) mean that he must also not put the interests of anyone else over those of his shareholders. This is interpreted narrowly. Basically, the point of principle is this: a director may not rip off the shareholders. He must take no action that he is aware beforehand will decrease the value of the shareholder's investment. Only in unusual circumstances (e.g. the company is about to be declared bankrupt) does the duty extend to requiring him to take positive action.

      (At least, from my good understanding of UK law and brief reading of the differences in US law, this is what appears to be the case. OTOH, I could be wrong. If I am, there will be cases of directors being sued for not taking positive actions in the course of regular trading to improve the value of their companies, so please point me to one.)

      Really, you don't have to look any farther than recent events involving GE's international tax evasion strategy (many other companies as well), BP cutting corners leading to plant explosions and multiple major oil leaks, all the patent trolls, the mobile patent wars in general; the list goes on and on.

      This is irrelevant to the point at hand. The simple fact is that the directors of these businesses are paid at least partially in ways that are related to how much profit the company makes (whether in shares or simply in performance-related bonuses) and therefore have a personal interest in improving the companies' profitability at any cost to others. I doubt their fiduciary duties ever entered their minds in making these decisions (BP, at least, is a UK registered company where the fiduciary duty I can categorically state does not extend to positive actions in most cases).

    17. Re:Corporations are the problem by sjames · · Score: 1

      What they are failing to take into account is that corporations, by law, have to abuse people for profit for their shareholders or face financial and/or legal consequences

      That is a God damned lie told by psychopaths to excuse their inexcusable behavior. Don't enslave yourself to psychopaths by repeating it.

      Corporations are bound by law to exist only when their existence is in the best interests of the public. Within that limitation (which implicitly invokes ethics), they are then duty bound to make a best effort at a reasonable profit.

  11. Not abuse by Atmchicago · · Score: 1

    You don't have to play the game. There's a free market of video games out there, and it's large. If a developer uses these transactions and becomes unpopular for it, they'll get a bad reputation and people will stop buying the games.

    --

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    1. Re:Not abuse by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      What planet are you living in? There's no real free market, because free markets work on a number of premisses which are unrealistic.

      According to wikipedia - Zynga, which is famous for these microtranscations...made $850 million last year and has ~250 million users. That's the free market for you eh.

    2. Re:Not abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is, people obviously enjoy their games.

    3. Re:Not abuse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zynga made a lot of money and has a lot of users. Therefore there is no free market. Yes, that makes sense and is not a non-sequitur at all. Also, I am Elvis.

    4. Re:Not abuse by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      What planet are you living in? There's no real free market, because free markets work on a number of premisses which are unrealistic.

      The free market is just what people do when no-one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to do something different.

      Unfortunately we live in a world where there are millions of people with guns telling others what to do all the time.

    5. Re:Not abuse by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      "defying the typical knee-jerk reaction to Zynga-style use of microtransactions as a cynical tool designed to siphon the maximum amount of money from your wallet"

      This is a negative thing. In the free market (TM) negative things are solved through boycott. Boycotts result in companies suffering until they improve.

      Zynga isn't suffering. Zynga isn't improving. .: The free market doesn't exist, through contradiction.

    6. Re:Not abuse by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      Not really, not just. Free market depends on the concept of "Perfect Competition".

      To give a good example - assume I dislike car company's lack of care for the enivornment. The free market would tell me that I should enter the market myself, and my superior ways will draw others away and the problem will be solved. I can't however realistically pull a car factory, and all the technology to compete out of thin air. Free market works when you have a bunch of farmers selling produce and there's no communication between them.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition

      See how many unrealistic premisses you can spot.

    7. Re:Not abuse by Machtyn · · Score: 1
      What planet are you living in? Zynga made $850 million last year, not because they were holding their users hostage, not because of a lack of choice or information, not because of some mandate, and not because Zynga holds a monopoly on online games with micro-transactions. In fact, a person can play a Zynga game without spending a dime (time and personal information not-withstanding).

      Free Market: an economic system in which prices and wages are determined by unrestricted competition between businesses, without government regulation or fear of monopolies.

    8. Re:Not abuse by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      At the same time, this kind of behavior needs to be nipped in the bud, otherwise it will spread. Cell phone providers used to not charge for text messages. Now they all do. They also used to not have restrictions on data plan usage. Now they all do, in some form or another. Saying "You don't have to play the game!" doesn't work once the vast majority of games are engaging in that behavior.

    9. Re:Not abuse by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Not really, not just. Free market depends on the concept of "Perfect Competition".

      No it doesn't. It just depends on you and me being able to freely agree on what price we sell to each other for (or whether we refuse to sell).

      The free market says nothing about whether anyone will give a crap about your environmental views; merely that if people do want to 'save then environment' then they'll choose to do so, and if they don't then they won't. In the real world very few people give a crap about 'the environment' in the abstract, and most would rather save $10,000 next time they buy a car than save any endangered bug.

    10. Re:Not abuse by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Zynga isn't improving. .: The free market doesn't exist, through contradiction.

      Zynga is selling things that hundreds of millions of people want and making a lot of money. That you don't like the things they do is irrelevant.

    11. Re:Not abuse by brainzach · · Score: 1

      Perfect competition is just one type of market in a free market economy. Many industries naturally have imperfect competition under free markets. Economies of scale and networking effects can create barriers of entry making it harder for new competition to emerge.

      If you really think you can build better cars for cheaper, you can go to Wall Street and convince people to give you the capital needed to do so. There are less barriers to entry in game development, so it shouldn't be an issue there.

    12. Re:Not abuse by 2short · · Score: 1

      This assumes that the market thinks the same things are good as you do. This is a bad assumption, despite wild popularity.

    13. Re:Not abuse by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Really? As I learned it, Free Market means that if you dislike the car company, you have the free will to go to another car company, not start your own. Though I could be wrong...

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    14. Re:Not abuse by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Well you don't have to play ANY game.... Games are luxuries. We don't NEED to play them (though isn't WoW considered similar to a drug?). We WANT to play them.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    15. Re:Not abuse by julesh · · Score: 1

      This is a negative thing. In the free market (TM) negative things are solved through boycott. Boycotts result in companies suffering until they improve.

      It's only your opinion that this is negative. A lot of people believe microtransactions, even in the Zynga style, are good. They allow people with differing amounts of time available to play and compete in the same game, simply by varying the amount of money they spend.

      Obviously this wouldn't work for every game (I wouldn't play an FPS that included such a mechanic, for instance), but for the Zynga-style building stuff games it's an ideal mechanic (IMO).

    16. Re:Not abuse by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      So fucking what? You're saying that because something is a "luxury", the person selling it shouldn't be held to any kind of standard? That they should be able to do whatever the fuck they want?

    17. Re:Not abuse by brkello · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is a free market in games. If you want to get all technical on what exactly is a free market, that can be left for some annoying side debate that no one but pedantic douches would care about. There are a lot of different games out there with various models of paying for them. Choose the company that does it the way you like. Zygna makes terrible games...a lot of what they make is through advertising/promos with companies, not microtransactions. But who cares how much money they make...even if it was through microtransactions...if people are willing to pay it, they can price it however they want. That has nothing to do with the free market.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  12. Amoral, immoral, hypocrisy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the summary:

    'As well, such a thing could be a tool for benevolence. A developer could tune the length between releases to offer just a little more content for the same price, if they felt that was the right thing to do.

    So he's basically defending microtransactions for what should be in ... euh... the patches?

    1. Re:Amoral, immoral, hypocrisy by Yamioni · · Score: 1

      Content packages need not be given away for free. All the game producers have to do is maintain the servers and fix bugs. Why? Because that's the bare minimum that you can get by with and still hold onto customers. Giving away content for free at regular intervals (ala Blizzard with WoW) fosters goodwill amongst your userbase however and also helps to keep them paying to play. The way I read what you quoted, is that the developer could choose to release those content packs for free (for the same price) if they felt benevolence was the right thing to do. How this falls under microtransactions I don't know; maybe it's so small it doesn't even exist? You could also read that statement as the developer releasing a base game, then two months later adding a content pack to the base game and charging the same price for it. Existing players have to pay extra to get it, while the new players get it for 'free'. The cost offset for the existing players is that they have been enjoying the game for far longer than someone just buying the game today. It's no different than buying a game in a B&M a few months after release once the price drops, only you're paying the release price and getting additional content instead. Think 'Game of the Year' editions. Come to think of it, the second explanation for that quote makes more sense. Regardless, content need not be free, but its price can be manipulated in order to create an inflated sense of value.

      --
      Cool post bro, highfive \o
  13. Reminds me of a scene in Lolita by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... when Lolita asks Humbert Humbert for something (presumably money?) while they are mid-coitus, and he grows angry and says she can't ask him for things while they are in the middle of it, that it's not fair.

    I think in the old days of strip tease they'd call it a blow-off; get the crowd riled up, and make them pay even more to see what they had thought they had already paid for.

  14. I disagree by Haedrian · · Score: 1

    I find them immoral for most cases. I don't know whether DLC counts as microtransactions or not, so I'll leave it out.

    The problem is that they are common in multiplayer games. Most multiplayer games involve some sort of competition between players. People play games to 'win', and to feel good about it. Now most multiplayer games I saw which have MT end up letting people who buy MT get a huge advantage. Then its not fun for the other players, because you can just buy victory.

    Now some games DO keep it down low or don't confer that much of an advantage (TF2 comes to mind), however in the end you need to dangle something in front of the donkey to make it move, and if its a bonus you can only buy, then it'll be popular.

    The sad part is that pretty much all the online games I ever played went like this:

    Donation -> Basic cosmetic MT -> "Equal to skill" MT -> Overpowered MT -> Seriously if you're not buying you're going to suck -> Game dies.

    1. Re:I disagree by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      If you find them immoral in most cases, but not in all, you are actually agreeing that the microtransactions themselves are amoral.

    2. Re:I disagree by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Then its not fun for the other players, because you can just buy victory.

      It's not fundamentally different from the typical case of old, where on one hand you'd have people who have time to waste in droves (e.g. uni students with barely passing grades) spending 10+ hours per day polishing their skills in a game, and thereby becoming essentially untouchable by any player who simply doesn't have the time to do the same. In fact, you can even make an indirect money comparison here - guys who spend those 10 hours/day in the game are "paying" by not doing anything productive that would earn them money, compared to those who do.

    3. Re:I disagree by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      Not really, you can find specfic examples to everything, which means that technically everything would be amoral.

      Which then heralds the collapse of a moral/immoral system and goes for a purely consequentialist approach.

      Ex: Killing puppies by putting them into a blender in front of orphans is ok if its done to appease a giant creature which is going to destroy the earth unless puppies are blended for its amusement.

      Since we're discussing whether a specific thing is amoral or not, I think we can safely say its not the intention.

    4. Re:I disagree by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Amoral and pragmatic are similar, but do not necessarily overlap in all cases. Your example is pragmatism, not an act being amoral simply because it is the lesser of two evils.

      There is no inherent morality to this payment model, much like using a hammer to pound in a nail has no inherent morality. If you're building a house, it's fine. If you're pounding it into someone's temple, it's bad. When the badness is dictated entirely by the circumstances surrounding the act, the act itself is amoral.

      Unless, of course, you believe the concept of renting things is inherently immoral.

    5. Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People play games to 'win', and to feel good about it. Now most multiplayer games I saw which have MT end up letting people who buy MT get a huge advantage. Then its not fun for the other players, because you can just buy victory.

      So, kind of like real life?

    6. Re:I disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For this purpose it is immoral yes, but this kind of system is not BUILD IN to the design of microtransactions. They are a system build on top of microtransactions in order to generate income. When you design your system so payers have an advantage over non-payers then it is a bad system.

      If you look at other games, then there are other quite good uses. In crimeville for example you can buy "custom skins" for your character, it does not change the game, but you look cooler and different from your friends and so it does present a value there, you have the same gaming experience as anyone else, so the value of looking good is up to you. Where is this immoral?

    7. Re:I disagree by brkello · · Score: 1

      Actually, in most cases, microtransaction games are items that add cosmetic appeal but don't give any real benefit. But let's pretend we are part of the "immoral" game you are talking about and microtransactions gives advantages to someone. That's not immoral at all. The other people get to play the game for free (usually) and the people who want to be serious about it, pay more. You feel that is unfair? Don't play the game or pony up the cash. There is nothing immoral about it. That's just how they generate money to keep the game running and generate a profit.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    8. Re:I disagree by Haedrian · · Score: 1

      WHich is why you play a game to get away from it all.

      If I wanted games to be just like real life I'd just turn my computer off.

  15. *facepalm* by _0xd0ad · · Score: 1

    You mean to tell me that selling stuff is neither inherently moral nor inherently immoral but it can be used for either purpose?

    No fucking way...

    1. Re:*facepalm* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean to tell me that selling stuff is neither inherently moral nor inherently immoral but it can be used for either purpose?

      No fucking way...

      You seem sarcastic, but given Slashdot's usual userbase, it's entirely possible most of the more vocal people here can't comprehend that the act of giving their precious, precious money to anyone for any reason is anything less than the work of a tangible incarnation of ultimate and absolute evil.

    2. Re:*facepalm* by brkello · · Score: 1

      You'd think this was obvious...but it is clear plenty on Slashdot consider it immoral...thus justifying the article.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  16. EVE? by Chas · · Score: 1

    Ensure your own bankruptcy

    Leave the $70 monocle alone!

    LEAVE IT ALONE!

    *Emoweep*

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:EVE? by Gravatron · · Score: 1

      You know whats funny, and rather dickish? One of the swag items CCP gave out at PAX was a plastic monocle.

  17. What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by jfengel · · Score: 1

    I'm one of those luddites whose cell phones makes phone calls, and I'm antisocial, so I'm kind of behind the curve here. Zynga's the guys behind Farmville, right? How do microtransactions come into it?

    Are they basically trying to rent you the game by the minute? Or is it that they're trying to actually sell you in-game stuff with real money? I've never understood the point of their games. It's no worse than Solitaire in terms of pointlessness, I suppose, but I'm not exactly excited about Solitaire.

    1. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It solitaire that you can get cards from a friend's deck.

    2. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by robthebloke · · Score: 3, Informative

      The basic premise for all Zynga games is something like this:

      * Game is free to play
      * Game lets you click on something (to buy, attack, build, whatever) once every N minutes of hours.
      * After a number of days of clicking, you win some new item
      * You can bypass the whole thing by simply coffing up some cash in the ingame shop.

    3. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2

      Zynga games are really not games. They're Skinner boxes. You unlock more stuff by performing many repetitive actions (clicking different areas on the areas for 5 minutes, for example). The more repetitive actions you perform, the more pictures and widgets you unlock. Nothing of what you unlock changes the game in any significant fashion. But people keep clicking, because that's how we work. And Zynga has figured out that some people are willing to pay money to not have to click so much, and still unlock stuff. So they have many, many things that can be unlocked for just a few dollars here and there; none of which changes the game, but just lets you get stuff faster.

      In essence, Zynga games ask you to pay to not play them. The author of this article argues that that's just one way of doing microtransactions, and that there are many other ways: TF2-style cosmetic changes, BF Heroes-style game-breaking changes, etc.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Zynga games are really not games. They're Skinner boxes. You unlock more stuff by performing many repetitive actions (clicking different areas on the areas for 5 minutes, for example). The more repetitive actions you perform, the more pictures and widgets you unlock. Nothing of what you unlock changes the game in any significant fashion.

      You just described pretty much every MMOG I've ever tried.

    5. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Kinda. But at least MMOGs provide fun ways to hang out with friends, and game mechanics similar to regular single-player games. The good ones even have a good story. Zynga games have none of that.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    6. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by Omegawar · · Score: 1

      The basic premise for all Zynga games is something like this: * Game is free to play * Game lets you click on something (to buy, attack, build, whatever) once every N minutes of hours. * After a number of days of clicking, you win some new item * You can bypass the whole thing by simply coffing up some cash in the ingame shop.

      For the most part this is correct. However, you can also buy enhanced versions of items. For example in Farmville you can by a red tractor that plows a 3X3 square and uses 1/4 can of fuel for 100,000 gold coins. (Gold coins are the ingame money, earned by selling crops, harvesting animals, etc.) But for 25 green coins (currency only obtained through cash transactions) you can get a golden tractor that plows 4X4 square and uses 1/8 can of fuel.

    7. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

      Zynga is definitely one of those companies I would label immoral, for a variety of reasons.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    8. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're Skinner boxes.

      I don't think that means what you think it means, except possibly to say that Zynga and nearly every other human experience can be equated and described in terms of a behavioral paradigm, which is to say, absolutely nothing at all because, in fact, they can.

      Even if you restrict your definition of "Skinner box" to refer to the very first experiments in which they were used, you would be very wrong. In those experiments, animals didn't get 'new' things by performing repetitive actions, instead they got more of the same thing (i.e., a pellet of food in the case of rates of a small bite of grain in the case of pigeons). Moreover, access to food is significant, otherwise the subjects wouldn't be engaging in the repetitive actions.

      But, if you want to look at later experiments, or how they're used today, you begin to see how meaningless your reference is. Skinner boxes (more often called Operant Chambers by the scientific community) can be used to study all kinds of things from decision making, problem solving, impulsivity, drug addition, memory, and emotion. So, what do you really gain by calling Zynga a Skinner box?

      Besides, if you're working a 9-5 job, aren't you pretty much doing the same thing in real life that you would be doing in Zynga? Filling out the same TPS reports? Keeping the same servers online? Maybe, every once in a while, you get to trade in your old Honda for a new Honda, or maybe even a BMW, but isn't it still just the same game?

    9. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by AaxelB · · Score: 1

      Their games are basically this, except you can pay to reduce the amount of clicking, or so I gather. I'm happy to say I've never played a Zynga game in my life.

    10. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 0

      Good grief, AC. If you want to flame me, at least know that the full name of a Skinner box is an operant conditioning chamber. And if you want to stretch definitions beyond breaking points, everything is the same as anything.

      And it seems I have a mod stalker. I must have really pissed someone off.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    11. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >They're Skinner boxes.

      Oh look, you can use the catch phrase of the week.

    12. Re:What are "Zynga-style microtransactions"? by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Zynga games do provide a very good way to ANNOY your friends.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
  18. Re:Amoral != Immoral by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

    You didn't really expect that to help, did you?

    --
    (+1, Disagree)
  19. who'd a thunk it by chaos.squirrel · · Score: 1

    technology can be used for good or evil...

    moving on...

  20. Micro Transactions are OK... when micro... by eepok · · Score: 1

    I hated when they brought "micro-transaction" to Everquest. I wouldn't mind paying a dollar here or 50 cents there... but they offered $10 items from day one... and the prices only went higher. Sure, there were deals, promotions, and the like, but I resented it.

    And then I learned that the EQ engine is SO old and cobbled together that they would need extra revenue to justify the expense of creating newer prettier items. I began to accept it then, but would only actively participate in their micro-transaction system when there were charity drives.

    They really could have suckered me into emptying out my wallet, in retrospect, had they just asked for less money.

  21. Crack MMORPGs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sadly...

  22. People dislike being baited by money per-incident. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem with microtransactions is that every incident of someone holding something up and telling someone "you probably will enjoy this but do you want to pay my price for it?" causes displeasure in the potential buyer. This on a per-incident basis. More incidents equals more displeasure. The displeasure is smaller if the active tempting is smaller.

    For example, if your game has "premium features" that make it easier to win, and you're playing a PVP game, and there's an active indicator that says whenever someone who beats you uses a premium feature, many would get pissed off. If every time you lost there was a big popup saying "If you paid $1 for this you might have won" many would also get pissed off. Take hence e.g. World of Tanks, where you can actually pay to win, but the difference isn't enormous, there is no indication to the loser, and it's hidden away in a separate section.

    You could make a hotel where everything cost a tiny bit of money but the average expenditure for the basics added up to the average cost of a room. You could then charge for things like: taking a shower, having hot water in the shower, access to toiletries, access to towels, heating the room at night, watching TV, etc. You could do this with some kind of swipe card system. Would people enjoy staying in a hotel like that? Probably not.

  23. Re:Amoral != Immoral by Forestwalker · · Score: 0

    Or Correct me if I am wrong.. but the Amoral statement would be Neither Moral or immoral, right ? Isn't that just what the writer says ? Only that it can tend towards Immoral ? 'microtransactions in games are an amoral concept that can be used for good or evil" I am not the educated one.. but I think amoral fits.. read the article may be ?

  24. Botulism doesn't give a shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Botulism doesn't give a shit about if you live or die.

    It isn't immoral.

    But is it good?

    Is it better than if Botulism DID give a shit and decided it WANTED you to die?

    1. Re:Botulism doesn't give a shit by _0xd0ad · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It is safe to say that botulism doesn't have an opinion. However, it can be used for either evil (infecting people) or good (genetics research, developing cures). That is what "amoral" means.

    2. Re:Botulism doesn't give a shit by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Botulism isn't capable of abstract thought.

    3. Re:Botulism doesn't give a shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      says you. Prove it.

  25. What's the problem? by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    I don't have an inherent problem with games that feature microtransactions. Provided, however, that the core game is free and that the game isn't specifically designed to be so tedious as to require those purchases to make the game playable.

    I personally can't stand games with microtransactions. That's why I don't play them. I don't really understand what's so difficult to figure out here... A game is not a necessity. It's not like food, insurance or fossil fuels. Don't like it, don't play the damn game. If everyone followed this mantra microtransactions would go away. But a lot of people obviously don't care or are not principled enough to do something about it. So it gets forced on the rest of us, who evidently are in the minority.

    1. Re:What's the problem? by Frankie70 · · Score: 1

      I don't really understand what's so difficult to figure out here... A game is not a necessity. It's not like food, insurance or fossil fuels. Don't like it, don't play the damn game. If everyone followed this mantra microtransactions would go away. But a lot of people obviously don't care or are not principled enough to do something about it. So it gets forced on the rest of us, who evidently are in the minority.

      What do you mean 'forced'? A game is not a necessity. It's not like food, insurance or fossil fuels. Don't like it, don't play the damn game. Nobody is forcing anything on anyone.

    2. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Don't like it, don't play the damn game. "

      Well that makes perfect sense to me, and it's what I do as well, but apparently this simple thing is beyond about 90% of humans. At least that is how it has always seemed to me: People will voluntarily engage in some action X while bitching loudly that they hate X and X should be outlawed/forbidden/banned.

      This is particularly apparent in American culture, where people are keen on blaming others for their own choices.

    3. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't even care if the game isn't free, as long as you can get equal value out of the game without having to pay more money. I play LoL which is free and has a microtransaction system. Everything you can get with microtransactions that help you in the game can be earned without paying money, it just takes longer to grind the points. The only things you HAVE to pay for is new skins, which I couldn't care less about. Now I DO have a huge problem when paying money gets you a competetive advantage over people who wopn't spend money in a game, and I don't play any game that does that.

      Also, I'm a huge believer in personal responsibility, so I think that consumers are partially to blame for this as well. Sure, the game companies are being douches for having this business model in their games, but they only exist because there is a market for it. Before microtransactions became a huge thing, people demonstrated that there was demand for this by buying and selling items for real money with each other on sites like eBay. If someone is willing to shell out more money for dopey shit, by all means do it; it's a relatively free country. You'll never see me doing it or playing games that require it, however.

    4. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sucks for those people who are too stupid to know when they are getting swindled. We should just remove any consumer protections because people really should know better. Maybe we can put blinders on every human on the planet so they don't have to worry their little heads about anyone else too

    5. Re:What's the problem? by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      This. I find it astounding how many people don't understand this. While I do believe that it's important that a person does get some form of entertainment, that is in no way limited to a video game.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
  26. Re:People dislike being baited by money per-incide by Haedrian · · Score: 1

    You could make a hotel where everything cost a tiny bit of money but the average expenditure for the basics added up to the average cost of a room. You could then charge for things like: taking a shower, having hot water in the shower, access to toiletries, access to towels, heating the room at night, watching TV, etc. You could do this with some kind of swipe card system. Would people enjoy staying in a hotel like that? Probably not.

    Apparently some Retirement homes work that way in this country. Just wanted to point that out.

  27. Amoral or immoral? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject.

  28. Bullshit by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Reducing any moral problem to just whether making money is right or wrong, is, sad to say, bullshit. In fact if that's the only thing that you see relevant in such a discussion, congrats, you might be a sociopath. You may have a successful career in upper management ahead of you.

    While nobody says that making money itself is immoral, certain ways of making them ARE. E.g., if you found out that your mayor or the local judge makes some extra money by taking bribes, well, I don't know about you personally, but most people would file that under "immoral."

    But generally we have a long tradition of frowning against basically offering to bend the rules in exchange for money. Whether it's in politics or sports or whatever.

    If the Superbowl involved officially letting teams pay for the privilege of punching opposite team members, or to get an extra kick at the opposing goal, most people probably wouldn't bother even watching just to see which team spent more money on unfair advantages. Most would also consider it fundamentally contrary to the spirit of sportsmanship or competition.

    Ditto if, dunno, the boxing championships started auctioning the right to have a horseshoe in the glove, or if baseball championships started auctioning the right to use a tennis racquet instead of a bat, or if the Olympics started being ok with steroids as long as you buy them from the organizers. At some point any semblance of "may the best sportsman win" becomes "may the guy with the most disposable cash win", and it becomes just a meaningless competition to be the most financially irresponsible loser.

    You'll notice that the above are direct equivalents of most micro-transaction schemes in most games. What once at least had some semblance of reflecting relative skill or effort or even just time invested, is becoming a competition in who's insecure enough to blow $1000 on overpowered equipment to finally feel secure to curb-stomp a newbie half his level. And there is no fundamental difference between paying to be allowed to use racquets instead of bats in baseball, vs paying for the Legendary Sword Of Newbie Slaying +9 to use in PvP, or vs blowing some money on whatever else to top some PvE charts either.

    So, no, not many of us will frown at making money, but at the way you make them. And if more and more competitions and achievements become rigged to milk money from whoever wants to pay for unfair advantages, don't be surprised if most people don't exactly take that as a positive development.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Bullshit by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Pedantic point: I don't think using a tennis racket in place of a baseball bat would actually lead to any kind of advantage. In fact, I'd probably lean the other way, that using one would make things harder.

      The rest of your post is quite spot on. Even if the game is free, it's not going to be any fun if your opponent can just dump a bunch of cash into the machine at the end in order to win. Imagine if Arcade games had this: You're playing Street Fighter against someone, and right as you're about to beat them, they spend some extra tokens for a full health bar and full special meter. Maybe some gloves which do double damage. How would that be fair, or more importantly, fun, in the least?

    2. Re:Bullshit by brainzach · · Score: 1

      Those examples are a little extreme. Micro transactions can just be the equivalent of paying for an expensive set of golf clubs to improve your game. It could allow you to hit the ball longer and more accurate giving you an advantage, but the game still relies mostly on the skill of the player.

  29. Whatever happened to shareware? by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

    Twenty years ago, this was a major paradigm in PC gaming. You get the introductory set of levels free, you get the rest when you cough up the dough.

    What happened? Why is this paradigm now evil?

    --
    Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    1. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

      because nobody wants to spend anything when the economy is in trouble.

    2. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by Gravatron · · Score: 1

      Judging by the amount of self-righteous pirates I know, I think a lot of folks object to paying anything for a game period. Ditto for other types of software or digital items.

    3. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      What happened? Why is this paradigm now evil?

      Originally, you got the promo version that ended at level 2. It was clearly labeled "promo version" or "demo" or something like that. You played up to level 2 and decided whether or not you wanted to continue by purchasing the rest of the game for $39.

      Now, you get the whole game. All 37 levels. Absolutely free! But what happens is that when you get to the end of level 2, there's a giant wall which is impossible to climb unless you buy the $35 super-jump shoes. But there's a free pair of super-jump shoes somewhere on level 1--if only you knew this and knew that you had to go down to the basement of the 17th brown building out of 23 (the other brown buildings are locked), figure out the maze, and fight the demon.

      Then, when you get to level 35, there's another wall and you need to buy a super-jump booster for $10 or find hiding on level 12 and not used it.

      So you end up spending $45 on what was advertised as a free game.

    4. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by 2short · · Score: 1

      That's a free demo. Every game I've bought in the last decade has used that model.

      Shareware games had licenses that let you freely copy them, and commonly gave you the whole game but included some sort of nagging unless you paid to register your copy. That model wen't away because nobody made much money with it in the first place. So the mostly indie devs who did it just went to releasing their stuff entirely free or went to the demo model.

    5. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Originally, you got the promo version that ended at level 2. It was clearly labeled "promo version" or "demo" or something like that.

      No, originally you got a good chunk of the game for free. E.g. in shareware Wolf3D you've got one full episode (10 maps), out of six in the full game. In shareware Doom, you got one full episode (9 maps) out of three in the full game. Ditto for Quake, which, IIRC, was the last popular game that had a shareware version.

    6. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I'm not much of a gamer.

      My point, though, is that you used to know you were playing a demo or promo version for free. Nowadays, you're getting the whole game for "free" but there's no way to play the whole game for free--you end up having to buy the various things you need to complete the game.

      To me it feels sort of "bait & switch"-y. Hey, here's a free game! Have fun! Oh, you actually want to complete the game? That's gonna cost you...

    7. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Twenty years ago, this was a major paradigm in PC gaming. You get the introductory set of levels free, you get the rest when you cough up the dough.

      What happened? Why is this paradigm now evil?

      I completely agree there. Every game I've paid for, with the exception of the original Deus Ex, happened after I'd played the game or a predecessor either as a demo/shareware version or the whole game. I guess one other exception is games I've obtained as part of bundles. I didn't know anything about Portal before I got it as part of the Orange Box, but I was sure glad I did. But overall, if I can get a chance to play a game in some form, I can decide if it's worth paying for. I've even paid for a number of games I'd obtained without authorization.

    8. Re:Whatever happened to shareware? by grumbel · · Score: 1

      What happened? Why is this paradigm now evil?

      It's not the same paradigm, as with most micro payment schemes you are not paying for part of the game, but for game items. You might buy game-money with real money, you might buy a new hat for your character and stuff like that. That is something very different then just buying Episode2 and 3 of Doom.

      The thing where the whole thing goes evil is because buying a lot of smaller priced items lets people lose overview about how much they spend, $40 ones a month is easy to understand, with $1 a day and sometimes $2, $3 or $5 or whatever, it's much easier to lose the overview. Another issue with micro payment is that the game end up being tweaking for maximum profit, not for maximum fun, thus how much you have to grind and such is optimized to make the most people invest real money.

      That doesn't mean that it's micro payment is inherently evil, but the way a game like Farmville annoys you pretty much constantly with popups to invest real money to get this or that item is rather sickening. And when Farmville doesn't ask for money, it asks for permission to annoy your friends.

  30. Dogpile on the premium guy by tepples · · Score: 1

    If I do not insert money, I play an extra, a mobile, player controlled target for someone who did.

    In a 1 paid hero vs. 100 free mooks situation, you and your free teammates need to think like Tucker's guerrilla kobolds.

  31. Locked content by Andtalath · · Score: 1

    In MMOs, it's really annoying when they actually lock content.
    What that means is that if you want to play a certain area with your friends and one of you doesn't own that area, he will be left out unless he buys it.

    Makes a game become the lowest common denominator.

    Aka, boring.

    1. Re:Locked content by theangrypeon · · Score: 1

      That sounds perfectly reasonable. If everyone else has to pay to access certain content, why shouldn't it work that way? Why should the one person who doesn't buy the content be specially exempted because his friends paid for the content?

  32. Sounds like indie bullshit to me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, micro transactions are only evil when used explicitly to maximise profits.

    and I'm indie which is so not evil that I can use micro transactions and still be totally cool.

  33. Correct, but by fa2k · · Score: 2

    Sure, there isn't even a real moral dilemma-- people can choose which games they play, and there is practically an infinite supply of them. -- But:It's lame if the rich kids get to "own" the fantasy worlds of games. It's not like they don't have enough shiny toys IRL. Micropayments just create an uncomfortable tie-in between real life and games, removing the "magic" from it. Games are actually a bastion of fairness and equal opportunity in a world that seems less than fair to some people.

    1. Re:Correct, but by brkello · · Score: 1

      Depends on what you consider fair. To the people who have more money than time, it is unfair that just because someone is unemployed is allowed to get so far ahead since they lack a life. Just depends on perspective.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  34. Extra Credit by ludwigf · · Score: 1

    Extra Credit is a great show about games and their development. I'm into game development myself and please, everyone who is too do as I - watch their shows. Think about what they have to say.

    They also got a video about microtransactions and one about the skinner box. They don't talk about moral though. So here for those interested in the topic but to lazy to RTFA. Its a video, just lean back and watch. Kinda entertaining as well.

    Their video's are currently hard to find because they got apart from their old home "the escapist" and the videos there all just 404.

  35. Morality isn't the only issue. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    Micro-transactions are bad.
    I'm not talking about bad in the moral sense, rather, bad in the efficiency sense.
    There's a cost associated with every transaction.
    That cost includes the cost of deciding to make the transaction.
    More transactions, more cost of deciding.
    To put it another way, the smaller the cost of the other things, the greater the percentage cost of making the decision to pay.

    -- ABH

    1. Re:Morality isn't the only issue. by brkello · · Score: 1

      Not true. Well, part of what you say is true, but your conclusion isn't right. Yes, each transaction you lose a cut...so the more transactions means more that gets cut out. But if a company makes more money using microtransactions, it is still better for them. Maybe people don't want to pony up $60 to play the game. If it is free, they may just spend $5. 5 is less than 60, but that 5 would have been 0 otherwise. Also, there are people who will dump hundreds of dollars in to the game. As long as they make more money using that model, microtransactions are not bad. They are neutral, just depends on how they are implemented whether they are good or bad.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  36. Arena games got it right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Heroes of Newerth and League of Legends, the game is free but you can buy heroes, (there is a random selection of heroes each week, but you can "unlock" them by paying in-game points or real money),XP boosters, cosmetic skins for heroes...None of wich break the game, just make it more fun if you are not playing casually.

  37. Gameloft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gameloft has started adopting Zynga style payment model in their iphone games as well. Let's Golf 3 is the most blatent money grab from a game developer I've ever witnessed. It's actually insulting.

  38. How about... by V!NCENT · · Score: 1

    You grow two brain cells and don't put all the money that you own into a stupid game?

    If, as a result, you do get bankrupt, can't buy perty clothes and nobody wants to mate with you? I'd say let evolution sort 'em out... That way the problem will take care of its own...

    Hell... the avarage IQ will go up. I bet we're totaly screwed if that happens...

    --
    Here be signatures
  39. Why micro-transactions are immoral. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    Micro-transactions are a tool, a method of payment.
    Can we reasonably assign a moral value to something that can be used for either good or evil?
    Well, yes we can. In fact, the courts have already done just that when they ruled against Napster, and in favor of video taping.
    We look at what the tool is primarily used for, and what other uses it has.

    The thing about micro-transactions is that they work on scale which humans have difficulty making rational decision in.
    Deciding if, for example, 1/10 of cent is a good price for a piece of paper is not something easy to do.
    Slashdot readers are more likely than most to get it right, but that's beside the point. The point is that many humans get it wrong.
    And getting it wrong is where most of the money is being made in micro-transaction.
    In other words, the primary reason micro-transactions are viewed favorably by business and unfavorably by their customers is because people end up spending a lot more money than they would have if they were better at making decisions on such a small scale.

    The primary reason businesses like micro-transactions is because they cause people to make mistakes.
    It's like putting a 1 silver item in the auction house for a thousand gold, hoping that someone will accidentally buy it because of the crappy AH interface.

    -- ABH

    1. Re:Why micro-transactions are immoral. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can we reasonably assign a moral value to something that can be used for either good or evil?
      Well, yes we can. In fact, the courts have already done just that when they ruled against Napster, and in favor of video taping.

      Courts rule on what is legal, not what is moral. The two are not the same, nor are they determined in the same way. Since the rest of your arguments are based on that factually incorrect premise, they are irrelevant.

    2. Re:Why micro-transactions are immoral. by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      I'm not old enough to remember the court video taping cases, and I haven't read up on them, so I can't comment on that. But in the case of Napster, there was an actual law that was being broken. As the AC below has said, courts don't rule on moral issues. That's the job of Congress ;)

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    3. Re:Why micro-transactions are immoral. by brkello · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the point of your own example. Can you assign moral value to specific instances of something being used? Yes, in Napsters case, they viewed it as immoral. Did that stop all p2p services? No. You can't make a moral judgement since it can be used in many different ways. Same with microtransactions.
       
      If people spend too much money that way...it's their problem. These are the type who are going to blow all their money anyways.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
  40. ...And pretty much every game, for that matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RTS? Gather resources, build little dudes, order little dudes to shoot at other little dudes. Repeat ad nauseam. Are new units significant? Hardly.

    FPS? Shoot mobile targets. Over and over and over and over again. Shinier guns? Sorry, not significant.

    JRPGS. Grindfest, enough said.

    Tetris. Align little blocks. Over and over and over again.

    1. Re:...And pretty much every game, for that matter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err... but all of those involve some skill. Zynga games involve just clicking the exact same button over and over.

    2. Re:...And pretty much every game, for that matter. by julesh · · Score: 1

      There is a skill in playing a Zynga game: remembering to come back regularly to click everything you're allowed to click once more...

  41. So? by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Sophomoric philosophy is still sophomoric when spouted by a game designer.

    Microtransaction systems are morally wrong? Who even suggested such a thing? It's like suggesting a hammer is morally wrong, or the idea of barter is morally wrong.

    My goodness, I guess when I wasn't looking, computer games became "srs bznss"?

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:So? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Sophomoric philosophy is still sophomoric when spouted by a game designer.

      Microtransaction systems are morally wrong? Who even suggested such a thing? It's like suggesting a hammer is morally wrong, or the idea of barter is morally wrong.

      My goodness, I guess when I wasn't looking, computer games became "srs bznss"?

      Perhaps you need to refresh your memory on the defintion of amoral.

  42. What about outside of gaming? Or multiplayer? by perpenso · · Score: 1

    What about outside of gaming? For example I have an iPhone calculator app, Perpenso Calc, that includes scientific functionality, metric conversions, rpn, etc. However specialized functionality - statistics, business and hex - is made available through in app purchases. I thought putting the functionality of handheld scientific, business and hex calculators into a single app was more convenient than having separate apps. I also thought a single and higher bundled price would be disadvantageous. In app purchases seem to handle tailoring functionality for needs quite well. I'm interested in hearing opinions on what people think of this approach.

    Back to games. For a gaming related app I would consider in app purchases for very high level things. For example the base game would only include single player functionality. Multiplayer functionality could be unlocked using an in app purchase. This keeps the base price of the game down, and from past experience with very popular single/multi-player games it was noticed that only have of the units sold ever connect to a game server. Again, price being tailored for desired functionality. Any opinions?

    Thanks in advance for any opinions or insights.

    1. Re:What about outside of gaming? Or multiplayer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Expecting to make any money off of a calculator application in this day and age is foolish. It's a trivial application to write, and everything comes with at least a built in simple calculator; usually with scientific and programmer modes as well.

    2. Re:What about outside of gaming? Or multiplayer? by perpenso · · Score: 1

      Expecting to make any money off of a calculator application in this day and age is foolish. It's a trivial application to write, and everything comes with at least a built in simple calculator; usually with scientific and programmer modes as well.

      The iPad does not come with a calculator. The built-in iPhone calculator does not support RPN, fractions, complex numbers, metric conversions, etc ... and that's just the scientific side. The built-in also does not support 20 digits of precision so it can't perform 64-bit math. Neither does the built-in offer statistics functionality, business functionality, or hex functionality. Check out http://www.perpenso.com/calc/ and you will find quite a bit more functionality than the built-in calculator.

  43. Actually, some are worse by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    In a few games, yes, they're cosmetic or offer negligible advantages. E.g., the jet pack in COH is fully equivalent to something you can buy in game from level 1 for 10,000 inf (think about the equivalent of 10,000 copper coins in WoW) and will last you longer, so, yeah, not much of an advantage.

    In others it can get even more extreme than my analogies.

    E.g., I remember a web game based on Battletech where

    A) fights were at best limited by tonnage, not by points, and you could even spend on blowing that limit in an invasion,

    and

    B) with enough RL cash you could actually do crap like bring Level 2 or even Level 3 mechs against the Level 1 mechs everyone else was limited to. And if you're not a guru at Battletech, by "level", I mean basically sorta generation, with each being vastly superior per ton to the previous. At the same tonnage, a L3 will curb-stomp any L1. In the board game they're limited by also being worth more points, but, see above, in this game that was removed.

    So, yes, for all practical purposes, you could pay to have the equivalent of a spiked steel gauntlet in a boxing match. In fact, you could even splurge a little extra and pay to have a couple more guys with you punching the opponent. It's not just a loaded analogy, you could literally pay to be as disproportionately more powerful as you wanted, if you had enough disposable cash. Rumour had it that the top guy in that game had blown 20,000$ on being the untouchable superpower he was.

    It's not even the only game like that.

    E.g., in Runes Of Magic, by buying skill books and leaving your character parked at home to study them over night, you can have vastly more skill points than an equal level character who didn't do that. In WoW terms, think having twice the number of talent points of someone who didn't pay. Yep, the equivalent of that was possible.

    And it's a shame, really, because ROM was one of the first MMOs which nailed a good enough substitute for WoW. Long before Rift. If it hadn't been for the blatant RL money aspect of ROM, or if they had made a server where it's all free of that crap and rebalanced to work without dumping hundreds of dollars into making your raiding character epic, I wouldn't have minded giving them $15 a month. Heck, even 20 or 30. I'm not opposed to paying for good quality and casual-gamer-friendly gameplay.

    But probably they're making more from fleecing their smaller player base than that, so, oh well...

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Actually, some are worse by SkimTony · · Score: 1

      And you've just explained by reference why Magic: The Gathering is frustrating as a casual game, too!

  44. Amoral, used for good or evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So.... Evil then.

    No, seriously. Most buisness techniques and approches are (arguably) effectively amoral. Anytime someone has to take EXTRA time to discuss how a tool or an event or an action is "amoral" and it's people that are abusing it, well, you know it's probably being heavily abused for "evil."

    Hell, he says it himself: "The negative reputation these systems have comes from factors that are tuned to maximize profit and abuse players for their money."

    In other words, he seems to be saying the perception is that these systems are only used to abuse people is only because... well, they're frequently used to abuse people?

    Personally? I think it's a crap way of squeezing extra money out of something that would normally have a one-time purchase price, or a subscription, by taking advantage of human nature, the same tendancy seen by folks that buy a few lottery tickets every day but are reluctant to tuck away what could be an equivilant amount into a savings account or an investment, because "that's a lot of money."

    Feels dirty to me.

  45. Daniel Suarez on gamebots by drydiggins · · Score: 1

    I get the impression that 99.9% of the in-game 'wealth' created (for eventual real-world transactions) is generated by bots. From 3 years ago: http://fora.tv/2008/08/08/Daniel_Suarez_Daemon_Bot-Mediated_Reality#chapter_08

  46. The very definition of entertainment. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You rent a seat in a concert. You have certain plays in an Asteroid arcade game. Etc. When you go home, you have nothing.

  47. Don't play. by __aazsst3756 · · Score: 1

    I don't understand how any reasonably intelligent person would play a game where one player can gain an advantage simply by paying more. Note this is different from games that charge a small monthly fee just to play. Myself, and everyone I know refuse to play (or admit when I asked) games with in game bonuses purchasable with real cash.

    1. Re:Don't play. by Jonner · · Score: 1

      I don't understand how any reasonably intelligent person would play a game where one player can gain an advantage simply by paying more. Note this is different from games that charge a small monthly fee just to play. Myself, and everyone I know refuse to play (or admit when I asked) games with in game bonuses purchasable with real cash.

      In other words, if you want to gain an advantage by spending real currency, why just stay in the real world, where that's always been possible?

  48. I like MT as filter for players I prefer to avoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you are the sort of person whose self-image would be affected by what ship/sword *I* use, then you are probably the sort of jerk I would prefer to not play with. Rational adults judge their play time over what they did and what they enjoyed. If you can only feel good when I don't succeed, then I am willing to spend some RL$ so you are not in my game.

    You may not mindlessly grind to get those purple pixels if you know some kid can get them with mommy's credit card. Which is mostly a positive; you should do things in a game because they are fun. Jobs are where you get RL$ to do things you may not always find entertaining.

  49. Im lost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the last time i played games was the older d&d, and arduin grimoire, and before that, checkers, cards, life, monopoly, etc. all those games allowed you to purchase better equipment to enhance the aesthetic value of the game, but did not increase your ability to "win". that was moral. heres your game, now enjoy it. ever since those damn wizards cards, weve had a gaming environment essentially no different than gambling, where you increase your (perceived) ability to win based on expenditures. I dont personally care if someone wants to burn out their thumbs playing a game, but the person selling the game should not profit in relation to how much money is spent on the game. thats pure immorality. Gambling is highly addictive, and no one should be profiting, with protection of corporate law, off those who choose to gamble. dont make it completely illegal, just dont allow business to incorporate, and make it illegal to gamble if you are under 18: no lotto, no chuck e cheese, no magic the gathering, no WOW for under 18, and all gambling set up like a poker game, where the money circulates in a given group, never leaving it. if necessary, put some heads on pikes to enforce this.

  50. Eve Online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can purchase a monacle for the equivalent of 60 AU$ worth of "Aurum". A currency that can only be created through the destruction of a PLEX which is an game transferable item worth a months subscription/$15. You also still have to pay for a subscription.

    I stopped playing when this change in business model occured and I havn't looked back. Try and find an MMO these days that doesn't use some kind of microtransactions these days.

  51. Runaway spending by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just watched a guy spend $500 on World of Tanks, a free game.

  52. What about the demo versions of yore? by Rexdude · · Score: 1

    Traditional retail bombards a player with inscrutable advertising, senseless review scores, and non-interactive game media, and then demands that they fork over a large portion of money for a non-returnable box which may or may not contain a game that they actually enjoy.

    Back in the day, going right back upto Doom, you could download a totally free demo version of the game with a few limited levels/weapons, and if you liked it you could buy the full version. At least you knew what you were getting. Game demos have totally vanished ever since the focus shifted to consoles, so someone would obviously balk at paying $40 to $60 for a title.

    --
    "..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."