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Ask Slashdot: Best Second Major For a Mechanical Engineer?
Scarred Intellect writes "After attending DigiPen Institute of Technology and deciding that I liked the idea of programming more than programming itself (I still do enjoy it a bit); after getting my AA at a community college with no direction; after much tinkering with engines growing up; after 4 years of service in the US Marine Corps infantry; I have finally decided what I want to do when I grow up: mechanical engineering. The reason is simple: I believe our automobiles can be a lot better (in terms of engine/propulsion) than they are now. Better technology exists, and there's more technology to develop for them. I've taken an intense interest in biodiesel and other clean, alternative energy methods (fuel cells being one of my favorites — second is solar, with wind being last). I figure mechanical engineering will give me a broad understanding of the more specific engineering disciplines. My uncle, also a mechanical engineer, suggested I get a second major in computer science to complement ME. It sounds like a good idea to me; I could mate mechanical processes with computer controls pretty effectively. It should take me 3 to 4 years to complete. What do you think? Is ME + CS a good option, or would ME work better with something else? I'll almost definitely have a math minor coming out of this."
It'll help you effectively communicate with the laity about the benefits of your work without making their eyes glaze over. Nobody's going to accept a proposal that reads like a 5th grade book report.
The ability to write software for specialized high demand uses is generally a huge asset.
Imaging the high powered killing machines you could design for the military industrial complex.
Business or economics. Unfortunately the two cores don't make it possible to double major. But an engineer that understands business would be something I would have loved to see.
In that order.
If none of those appeal to you, then take a few classes on technical writing.
Good luck
In my opinion, with where you want to go in terms of nuclear and solar energy, perhaps this would provide as a good alternative to CS.
For those who seek perfection there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
Clearly, you haven't started your degree. Double degrees are no easy feat when engineering is one of them. Comp sci is a great minor. Good luck! And remember almost every industry employs mechanical engineers, automobile is a small fraction.
Best degree (in addition to ME) to work on consumer products would be something involving reading/speaking Chinese.
Have gnu, will travel.
Biology... so you don't show up on the Internet a few years later insisting that your experience and training in engineering equips you to declare evolution false.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Salem_Hypothesis
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Id say either Chinese or Hindi, seeing as China or India will be where all of our jobs are going to eventually end up anyhow...
It depends upon your goals. For many folks, any kind of business degree would be a good second major, assuming you hope to one day make a better-than-average income (either by starting your own business or climbing the corporate ladder as a manager). A legal degree might be another choice along those lines.
If you wish to remain an engineer (a laudable desire, some might say), then CS is perhaps the best second choice.
If you wish to round out your life, choose a liberal arts degree. The secondary benefits of this are being exposed to a variety of different people and learning how to deal with them (you won't get this as much with a second CS or engineering degree).
There are many paths... choose yours with your ultimate goals in mind.
there arent many industry jobs for MEs anymore and with your marine corps background you could get a TS/SCI very easily. I suggest going defence industry and majoring in mechanical with an aero concentration.
If you want to learn controls, it seems Electrical Engineering would be a better fit than Computer Science. While Mechanical Engineers have to learn a fair degree of controls theory, the EE guys live and breathe controls, so it would make you more proficient in that area, at least on paper.
I work part time as a contract consultant for a giant company. The division I work at requires 2 separate degrees for their second flor elves. One in computer science, the second in either mechanical engineering or electrical engineering. They also require at lest one of those to be a masters or doctorate. They prefer a masters & a doctorate both.
One discipline is no longer enough to get the really, really, good jobs.
The bad new is out of 65 guys and 1 woman in that second floor cave, only 1 guy is caucasian and speaks English as a 1st language.
The VP in charge said it was just sad that American kids didn't want to put in the work and take the time to get the educational requirements of that group.
* Carthago Delenda Est *
Psychology degree. Balance the mechanical engineering with an understanding of people - how they think, what they want, what their motivations are for doing things. If you're going to make machines that people use, understanding people is a really good idea.
Take a foreign language such as Chinese, Hindi, Japanese or German to ensure you can communicate with your co-workers in 3 years.
I'm only half joking.
It'll help you effectively communicate with the laity about the benefits of your work without making their eyes glaze over. Nobody's going to accept a proposal that reads like a 5th grade book report.
I'm not the best writer in the World myself, but good grief! Many CS and engineers (and business people for that matter) can't write for shit.
Double in ME or CS? Nope. You'll get enough CS in your engineering program. Everything beyond data structures will be a waste for an engineer and besides, if you really need it for your job, just buy a book. A CS degree won't do anything for your marketability.
At least 3 semester of accounting would also help: Acct: I & II and Managerial (teaches you how to read and write accounting statements for PHBs).
So here's my program:
Do your absolute best in your ME program. Take tech writing classes and even a touchy feely composition class (it'll help you later on with the chicks and it counts as an elective!), 3 semesters of accounting and anything else the peeks your interest (also counts as electives).
This dual major BS will just distract you and possibly cause you to have a lower GPA with your BSME - your GPA plus internships is going to get you into your first job. And by NOT double majoring, you may actually have time to socialize and further develop your networking and people skills.
ME and CS have very little overlap past the calculus and general study classes. Math minor should be nearly a freebie, maybe requiring one or two more advanced math courses. The higher up ME classes are usually demanding enough to be a full load with 5 classes a semester, so expect 4 years on top of having that AA clear out some of the general classes is reasonable to expect. You may discover transferring into a university not quite as simple as they advertise. Look into what classes will count towards your major and how many credits will be lost. Also find out if your school will require 2 capstone projects or not - these are a lot of work. ME compliments most other fields very well, some people like Bio/ME and Chem Eng/ME for those more interested in fuels.
I'd say if you're set on ME, go through a year or so of ME classes, you'll take at least one or two CS, Electrical Eng, and Chem classes as part of the curriculum. If you find something you like go with it.
At my university many of the engineering faculty are international. I would imagine working at a prestigious multinational corporation or even a small venture focusing on research would have a similar mix.
Cars have complex electrical and control systems and an Electrical Engineering degree may put you closer to your goal. EE's do a fair amount of programming as well. It would work for Aeronautical and Medical Device Engineering as well. Tough you may have to take some pre-med courses. Also weapons engineering. Since you are a vet, you already have at least a minimal security clearance. That boosts your employ-ability, if you decide weapons are right for you.[1]
Note that you may have to get a Masters degree to do any serious design work for a car company, aircraft company, or a medical devices company. That's what a ME student once told me. You should investigate.
One thing to consider is that ME and EE are easy to offshore. Anyone with solid engineering training can do it anywhere on the globe. For job security I would recommend Civil or Environmental. As one CE I knew once put it "There are always jobs in roads and commodes".
Math minor is OK, but I think you should focus more; either EE and ME or ME and Math.
[1] As an undergrad in CS I had a Math prof once offer to do a letter of introduction to a guy he knew working at the China Lake Naval Weapons Testing Center in CA. I decided that I did not want to pursue that path, so I was under employed for a few years. This was during the 1980s Reagen "prosperity". But I still think it was the right decision for me.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Well, comp sci wouldn't hurt, but depending on syllabus you may well got more relevant experience for working with embedded systems from having EE as a second major, and the combination of the two engineering disciplines is a strong one. Another couple of possible matches, if you can find somewhere that offers a suitable program, would be systems engineering (that is, the real "big picture" cross-domain, full-product-lifecycle discipline) or material science. The latter may be part of an ME program, depending on where you are, but in the alternate power area developing new materials is going to be central to decreasing the cost and increasing the efficiency of those power sources.
You can mock all you want, but English or Communications would definitely be helpful for an Engineer. I know someone working on an MA in English, and part of that is teaching a basic writing class for freshmen. A lot of the students who struggle are those from engineering or science programs who just don't know how to write down and communicate their thoughts academically and professionally. You have to at least be able to communicate effectively with other engineers, and being able to organize your thoughts and convey them to non-Engineers is probably as essential if not more so, since your bosses will likely not be engineers themselves.
I hear it often from math, science, engineering, and technology majors that they don't see the point in having to take humanities courses, especially English, and while I agree that detailed study of literature and theory is probably unnecessary for them, one should at least be exposed to those ideas as part of a liberal (meaning broad) education. Studying literature is as much about learning how humans communicate through the written word as it is acquiring the ability to appreciate it as a form of artistic expression.
tl;dr, everyone needs to be able to communicate effectively, NOT everyone has to (or can) be an engineer.
But don't bother with the full major. There's a lot of theory involved with that that you frankly won't need to know.
If you really want to focus on micro-controllers and embedded systems, Computer Engineering may be another option.
you will never ever meet any girls in engineering school. ever.
Mechanical Engineer working in the automotive industry here. (3 years out of school, about half of that time in automotive.)
You're 100% correct about needing computer science skills. I'm not sure going for a second degree is as beneficial as a minor, or just being skilled with computers. Many schools are shifting their focus for mechanical engineers toward computers anyways. You can expect to learn finite element analysis, computational fluid dynamics and a programming language in a ME major. It's a really broad major, and the nice thing is that (in a good program) you will be exposed to all of the fields you mentioned above, and given opportunities to pursue them.
A math minor could be useful if you're going to use it. I know a few people who got one, but it's not useful for most of them. Minors in materials are also common, and much more useful in my opinion.
I think what you do beyond the classroom is more important. Getting involved in competitive engineering teams (FSAE) did much more for me in the automotive industry than minors. (Admittedly, I was a poor student... Internships and extracurricular activities helped me stand out.) More important to focus on the basics before double majoring and minoring in a ton of stuff.
The Basics:
Get into a good program. You will learn more from smart classmates and good professors.
Try to get good grades. (>3.5 = genius, >3.0 = reasonable, 2.5 = not hirable to many employers.)
Work internships. You'll learn how to be professional, and getting a real job will be a lot easier.
Do extracurricular activities. This is where you learn how to apply your schoolwork.
First, let me say that all colleges and universities have slightly different curricula, so mileage may vary. But...
Computer Engineerin/Science is probably not going to teach you control systems. It will teach you how to understand the problems and trade-offs of software design, and how to employ higher-level patterns to quickly solve common problems optimally. That will probably not be used in controlling a feedback system with a microcontroller, or in controlling a large scale plant. Automatic control generally falls into Electrical Engineering, though it will also be a large part of more specialized degrees if they are offered by your school: chemical engineering (emphasis on plants and processing), petroleum engineering (again, emphasis on plants), process engineering (duh), and automotive engineering.
I would take a healthy dose of engineering economics. The auto industry is motivated by having very good system redundandy under harsh conditions with minimal cost. I know, that's theoretically every engineer's job, but the conditions here really are harsh, the redundancy is mandatary, and the margins are tight. Also, consider your willingness to travel, and what other fields (aeronautics?) your degree could be useful in once complete. Tough market out there.
Never leave giant, un-bridge-able gaps in your knowledge!
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I was a bit confused by the summary, but my reply assumes that you have not yet started your ME degree and you want to concurrently take ME with something else, maybe CS, so that when you finish your undergrad education, you will have and ME degree and another degree (possibly CS).
Part of my job is advising first year engineering students on their course selection. Your position is very common: people start with some idea about a minor / second degree they would like to take, and want to start taking courses to get them down that path right away. I try to encourage students to focus on their first degree, at least for the first two years. The reasons for this are mainly (1) engineering school is hard for many people, and before you start, you cannot be sure how good you are at it. You may find that a normal ME course load takes all your time and attention, and it would be a shame to immediately spread yourself thin, before you know what kind of a course load and subject range you can reasonably handle. (2) When you start engineering school, you may not have a good sense of what your interests are, even if you think you do. One of the best things about university is the range of degree programs you get exposed to, in a meaningful way that lets you explore your interests. In your first two years of ME, you will end up taking programming courses, physics, math, electrical engineering, chemical eng. / material science, etc. that will let you get a better sense of your interests and strengths. After a year or two, you will be in a much better position to decide what second major / minor you would like to pursue, if any.
In your first year especially, the best thing you can do is use your electives, if available, to try out other subjects that interest you. One bit of advice if you have CS in mind though. Depending on the school, there are usually a number of different intro to programming courses, often one for CS, one for EE, one for the rest of engineering. If you need to take a first year CS course, see if the CS intro course will count for credit against your ME degree, and take that one instead (because the ME course will probably not count for CS) so you are not behind.
Whatever you choose, do it out of interest and not based on your current perception of the job market. Five years from now (at least if you are doing two majors) there is no way to predict what will be popular.
-USMC infantry (aka grunt, if this person had any more useful aptitudes, the USMC would have placed him in a more specialized role)
Actually your job specialization in the military is largely your choice. I was in the USMC infantry as well. I scored in the 98th percentile on the ASVAB, qualifying me to do any job I wanted, but I chose infantry. They tried to encourage me to be a cryptographic linguist, but I turned it down. Coincidentally, I'm also in school to be a mechanical engineer now.
In Soviet Russia meme tires of you!
False advertising at it's worst :(
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
old old old
I tried to do something similar - add a computer engineering BS in addition to my EE. That was a pretty easy combination - lots of EE electives overlapped with CE classes. You won't have that luxury with an ME degree and I suspect it could be a lot harder than you think to fulfill both programs. The other thing I ran into was in my senior year the college decided to change the required classes for the CE degree. Since I could only have one declared major, I wasn't grandfathered into the old course requirements. It turned out to complete the CE degree that instead of an extra semester it would have taken me two extra semesters and probably some summer classes.
-Far too well-written to be an engineer's work.
While CS would do well, you can pick up most of what you need from the basics (intro programming, structures, os). EE would help with knowing how to deal with the electronics in general - take what you can so you have good exposure. Computer Engineering served me well as it combined CS/EE without getting too deep into esoterics of either.
The suggestion to study English above is good - being a decent writer is a very good skill, but a full major in it? nah read a lot of fiction (broadly) and practice writing in your reports for other classes.
I have not seen a suggestion to study Art - specifically communication arts. Perhaps something like the ITP program. That combines a lot of ME, CS, EE with knowing how to design something that is a) useful b) looks good c) works well in real world and d) people will want to use. I've been a promoter of extending the term STEM (Science Tech Engr Math) to STEAM - explicitly including Art. All great engineers and inventors were also artists and having a good appreciation and ability will help any engineer make better products.... A side effect is you will meet more interesting people (women).
Next, get into an internship program. Change schools if you need to. These are by the best part of an engineers education. Working with a group of experienced engineers on real world projects before you graduate is a great help in knowing what will be important, and how it is really applied. It will also help you understand if you really want to be an engineer in that sort of company (knowing small vs large companies can be VERY different).
And to help with that foreign language/communication skill, try getting a semester or more abroad.
By the time you get all that done, you will have the equiv of a MS or PhD.... and skip the PhD. Go get some real work experience in a lot of areas. IMHO PhD is heavily overrated.
Now - Shut Up and Make Something!
If you can get
If you don't like programming, why in the world would you take a bunch of classes that have programming as a large part of it?
Even if you did like programming, a computer science degree is going to be a huge waste of time and money if you all you want to do is combine computer controls with engine design. Computer science is very broad. A database class, graphics class will give you zero knowledge to help you better design engines. Learning about TCP/IP and networking concepts will be of almost zero help. A class on real time systems could be quite a bit of value. So concentrate on specific classes that will give you knowledge about what you want to do, not a broad based major.
If you would like to work on automobiles I recommend sticking with ME, and just doing that for now. Mechanical engineering is quite an undertaking on its own and if you double major, plan to spend at least 6 or 7 years in college to get a good understanding of both subjects. If you try to double major with mechanical engineering as one of the majors in the standard 4 years, you will either not gain a satisfactory understanding of the fundamentals and theory or you won't have any time to participate in the practical non-classroom experiences that make a mechanical engineering degree worthwile. I would recommend joining the Baja or formula SAE team at your university or college to get a better understanding of what goes into real world vehicle design, also project oriented teams look great on the resume. You will pick up a little CS and EE in Mechanical engineering if your school is doing it right. You might want to get a green minor if you're interested in biodeisel and low carbon emmisions vehicles, but make sure your university offers this first. Getting the math minor is easy, but probably won't do alot for you in the long run (most mech e's have one by default).
And Controls theory is definately a mech E subject, you can get very in depth in mechatronics and controls courses offered through a mechanical engineering department, and you'll get alot more real world hands on examples than you would in an EE course (EE's tend not to care about mechanisms, and are more interested in the electric theory) I would say if you're interested in cars, go the ME route and stick to it.
(This advice is coming from a practicing Mechanical Engineer who got his BSME in 4 years (at Virginia Tech)) I focused on robotics (CHARLI and RAPHaEL were my pet projects) but had alot of friends who loved cars). I work at SpaceX on rocket stuff now.
Also, you should probably know, the job you get might not be exactly what you planned for or learned the most about in school, but engineering, like life, is an adventure, so stick it out and you'll be sure to have fun.
I'd always wanted to be an Aerospace Engineering major, so that's what I did. But I did a double-major in Computer Engineering as well.
I have no regrets about taking this course, and would recommend it to anyone like-minded. Another suggestion on this thread that I liked was to get an English degree. The stereotype about Engineers being poor communicators is true far too often. Every time I critically review the written output of other engineers, I'm really reminded of this. To most people, poor communications are indistinguishable from those that are high-quality. However, if you can impress decision-makers with not only the inherent quality of your arguments, but also the way in which you convey them, you have a much better chance of being listened to. Such opportunities are usually not frequent, but they can make a big difference in your life if you're prepared to make the most of them.
I'd have a much harder time standing behind a business degree recommendation. Once you've studied a rigorous field with some applications, like a standard Engineering major, you'll find it pretty straightforward to read books to gain any necessary understanding of the "technical" side of business, like accounting or finance. And as for the "soft" skills, like anything involving groups, or "management", the "theory" that business schools provide is weak at best (the opposite of rigorous), and you're far better off with a combination of real-world experience and reading from actual practitioners, like Bennis.
With regard to the computer side of things, in my judgment, there were only a few aspects of CS that I lost out on by choosing Computer Engineering. One would be compilers and their associated fields (parsing, grammars, etc.). Another would be advanced data structures and its allied cousin, algorithmic analysis. While I had some exposure to the latter two, they're definitely my weak points. On the other hand, I can often destroy CS majors in terms of my depth of hardware understanding. If I was inherently more capable in the analog world, I might have just chosen a straight Electrical Engineering degree for the double-major instead of Computer Engineering.
One serious recommendation though: pick a top-tier engineering school. If you're even remotely thinking of an online degree for this stuff, you're going in absolutely the wrong way. State schools are absolutely fine -- doesn't have to be the "rockstar" universities like MIT or Stanford. Find any way you can to pay for it, as long as you can dedicate enough time and energy to your actual studies. The differences between top-tier universities and everything below them are substantial.
And lastly, I also took the additional two courses to pick up a math minor. I still suck at anything more advanced than PDEs, but it's a fun feather to have in my cap. You might as well. The CS/CompE side will emphasize discrete math and the mechanical side the continuous. Just know when not to brag about the math minor. In my case, that's usually with good aero/mechanical engineers or math/physics/applied physics folks. They have better inherent capabilities in math than I gained through my coursework. For problems of a given mathematical complexity, they're generally faster and have better intuition for them than I do.
Good luck! By even thinking along the lines you've discussed, you're putting yourself in an exclusive group.
Since you mentioned biodiesel..
It really depends on what you want to do with yourself. Do you want to manage a group of engineers or an entire plant? Do you want to be a researcher studying cutting edge technology? Do you want to be more on the technical side and spend time actually building things? I spent two years as a dual major in mathematics and computer engineering, before I decided I would rather just do mathematics since you have plenty of opportunities to work in most areas of research as long as you have programming skills.
As a mechanical engineer, you will have plenty of opportunities for material science classes, physics classes, mechanics classes, etc. So, my best recommendation to you to ensure you can get a job is to take programming courses. By this I mean, take enough to be able to program an application or scientific computation software comfortably in Unix. This should be in addition to any second major you would choose. From there its really up to you.
If you plan to be on the plant management side of things, statistics and/or operations research is a major plus. This is achievable through many math programs. If you want to manage a business or people, economics/finance or an MBA is always a plus, though generally engineers and scientists can take courses on these topics geared more towards their discipline. If you plan to be on the more research side, I would recommend either mathematics or physics. If you plan to actually build things, I would recommend sticking to just engineering disciplines and taking as many courses in it as possible rather than waste extra credits on a second major in the sciences. Even mechanical engineers have to specialize in something, and if you don't worry about a second major it leaves more time to work on a second specialization. For example, there are mechanical engineers that specialize in thermodynamics, and some that specialize in material science. You could have time to do both by not taking a second major.
I am a PhD student in computational mathematics. I have my MS in Applied Math, with a specialty in mostly computational topics as well as optimization. I was an engineering student for awhile, but I absolutely love mathematics and typically sacrificed an engineering class for a mathematics class I didn't even need to graduate. Ultimately I got some good advice and just pursued mathematics full time.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
I'd go with either Electrical Engineering, Computer Engineering or Computer Science. Since you're into cars and cars are becoming more and more computer laden (and that is where a LOT of the innovation will be happening for the foreseeable future) I would choose a second major in one of those. Since I don't see any other school mentioned outside of DigiPen, I'll assume you haven't quite chosen a school yet. In that case, choose carefully, as Ghostworks alluded to your milage will vary from school to school for any of these, as well as Mechanical Engineering. The Computer Engineering program at DigiPen is, from my tours through their lab quite impressive, and this is coming from a recent CE grad (though, sadly, not from DigiPen.) The specializations Ghostworks mentions are also quite good ideas to primary major in, if you really know you want to be in the automotive industry. My final recommendation is to, at minimum, minor in Physics (and Math, as that will likely be nearly automatic anyways) as these will round you out a bit and provide a greater foundation of understanding for your future endeavors. Good luck! ^_^
I have a masters in ME and for all intent and purposes an undergrad in CS (long story but swapped grad comp vision and comp. graphics for compilers/os) it seems I spend a lot more time coding than ME design. At least most of the coding is embedded and involves dynamics and control, but I miss bending metal a lot. The problem is once you are pegged with software competence you will not be able to hide. Lucky for me I really enjoy the combination of code and hardware. A decent size company needs its specialists and jacks of all trades. The hard part is choosing what role you want.
Some level of coding is priceless, so if you choose not to you might want to supplement the sorry a$$ engineering programming class with some real CS courses.
In the end, I would recommend doing both. A ME || a CS employee is a dime a dozen but a ME && CS will stand out and give you plenty of interesting opportunities, but only do it if you enjoy it. Its a good combination too, about the only better one might be Physics/Math...
I don't believe that CS majors typically learn a lot of controls and automation in their core curriculum . . . that's typically something that EE's see more of. And for that matter I ask, why Mechanical Engineering? If you want to design cars, ME might make sense, but in most alternative energy technologies you will likely be part of a multidisciplinary team . . . with material scientists (solar energy, automobiles, fuel cells), chemical engineers (fuel cells, combustion engineering), aerospace engineers (wind turbines), electrical engineers (all of the above). Mechanical engineering, though a key component of many teams, does not typically get to "ride point" on these teams. Mechanical engineers often take the requirements from the aforementioned disciplines and design a real and stable "container" or "device" that mechanically stabilizes and holds the alternative energy technology. If you actually want to design the "alternative energy technology" perhaps one of the more specific disciplines would make sense. . .
Note that I'm not belittling the role of mechanical engineers. ME's are absolutely critical to the development of a myriad of technologies . . . but mechanical engineering isn't the lead discipline that actually develops many of the "core" technologies that make the alternative energy technologies that you describe possible.
And lastly, I don't understand how ". . . mechanical engineering will give me a broad understanding of the more specific engineering disciplines." is true at all. I'm a chemical engineer . . . I don't know many mechanical engineers that know squat about the basics of Chem E. And for that matter I don't know Mechanical Engineering for squat either . . . I never even took a Statics and Dynamics course . . .
This has been an extremely effective dual degree for me. Almost every mechanical system has a controller these days, and knowledgeable control engineers are in demand. You do a lot of coding for control engineering but it is not classical computer science. The math is based on differential equations rather than algorithms.
You and I are very similar. I currently have a B.S in Information Technology.
Next Spring, I graduate with an B.S. in Mechanical Engineering. I'm also an automotive engineer working for Mercedes at the moment.
I also founded my school's first Society of Automotive Engineers chapter, and we're working on finishing the school's first Formula SAE Car.
I do not recommend a CS degree. That was my first degree before I switched it to IT. IMO CS will give you an unnecessary study into in depth facets of CS that you won't utilize as an ME. If you want to combine technology with engineering then pursue a degree in IT. It will be easier, give you more practical programming experience, teach you about databases, and allow the flexibility of taking several electives (which can be CS related courses).
You will also be subject to programming and controls classes during your ME studies. Your IT experience will give you a leg up against your peers.
You will amaze your ME friends when you can create a programming solution to an engineering problem on the computer.
You need to learn MATLAB early on, since MATLAB and Simulink are the tools that the automotive industry uses the most for engine modeling and control, and to generate the low-level code that ends up in the ECUs.
We learn from history that we learn nothing from history - Tom Veneziano
I am not sure that CS is the best bet for what you're wanting to do. Math might be even better, but physics or EE would be better yet. However, here is one fun example of a guy doing CS/ME:
http://web.mae.cornell.edu/lipson/
Mixology. At least you'll be the hit of the frat parties - and in a few years you can develop a keg tap that'll pour beer at a 10 meter distance.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Given the prevalance of hybrid and electric propulsion technologies these days, I would imagine that Electrical Engineering would be very helpful. Comp Sci. would be helpful for understanding how the microprocessors work in terms of software, but EE would help you understand the flow of current in these new electrical propulsion systems that you mentioned.
Don't consider, disciplines, but topics. If you are interested in fuel cells (or solar) go after the curricula that allows you to learn and experience that topic. Choose to work in research group that deal with these topics. Get your hands dirty. I have had environmental science majors in my group here at MIT that work on solar PV to get experience on them. I tend to hire undergrads that shows that they are flexible in thinking rather than focus on "what's the curriculum that is provided". If you follow this track, you will find that all disciplines matter little, what matters is your ability to shape what you want to do and focus your educational effort in seeking the best courses that allow you to do that. In the specifics, as things get smaller (even before going nanoscale), mechanics have to deal with electronics and chemistry. EE courses will give you a boost in ways to optimize mechanical process at the microscale. Besides, given your interest in alternative energy sources, it will provide a way to design the electronics that can control and optimize your fuel cells. Chemical Engineering courses would help too, in this regards. And while you're at it, take classes in communication. As we say: "science (and tech) badly communicated, is science (and tech) not done".
Just stick with ME. Instead of spreading yourself thin with a double major, take advantage of other opportunities to gain experience in your field. Take part in club or engineering competitions. Find a professor who does interesting engineering research and get a position in his or her lab. There is WAY more to school than just classes and most students don't take advantage of all there is to do. These activities outside your class will get you face to face with people who will serve as future career contacts. If you really want more education, wait for grad school.
You can know just enough to do some real damage...
If you want to scratch a precise itch with your mechanical research using a computer, you may be well served by yourself but chances are if you're not a real programmer, you'd be better off letting one do the job for you while you concentrate on your main interest.
I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
I second this.
Any engineering discipline is a substantial undertaking (EE here, working on my MSEE). I think that you will find that you barely have time to complete your work in mechanical engineering, let alone also complete a second major. Most engineering degrees will take 5 years to complete if you do an internship or co-op (side note: make sure you do this!!!! The experience is invaluable), many students take 6 years to complete the degree if they are not able to do schooling full time, or if you need to retake any classes. Focus on your ME degree first, if towards the end of your degree you find that you have time to take a few classes, work on a minor in mathematics or statistics.
Now, once you finish your degree and if you have not had enough punishment, there would be a huge benefit in working on a masters degree. You could get a MS in ME, or even EE. In fact, given the option of taking an extra year to double major for a BS or taking 2 years and getting a MS, definitely go for the MS as you will be able to learn more and have better/more interesting job prospects in the long run. If you are really into doing some cutting-edge development, you will need the MS. A BS will most likely not get you into the type of job you are really looking for.
Parent has it right. EE isn't just about circuits. It also covers embedded controls and systems engineering (feedback loops, etc.). If your goal is a broad understanding of engineering that allows you to mate different technologies, then you can't go wrong with ME+EE. You can do just about anything with that pair. Certain fields (such as a aerospace on the ME side and IC design on the EE side) require you to focus more on depth of knowledge than breadth, but for most careers being well rounded is more important. They'll teach you the specifics on the job.
Lose the CS. It will get in the way of the ME. More math & physics would be better choices. A language would also help to fill those empty hours.
As in, just try to make an airplane or gas turbine engine with 19th century materials. Not happening, steampunk to the contrary.
Same goes for anything else you're going to be doing before you hang up the CAD system for a golf cart.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
The oil industry requires oil experience even for mechanical engineering jobs. Getting that degree can get you a $100,000 a year job within 5.
http://saveie6.com/
YOU don't give a shit. Some of us are willing to share our life experience with others. Where would you plan to search for the answer to this question? Since many of us don't have fucking blogs about this type of thing, all you would find is a bunch of people talking about it who aren't engineers nor scientists.
That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
If you spend the time, you can pick up almost anything technical on the job and with some studying on your own time. However, still in many companies, to move up into management or into positions that have more decision making power, they like to see an MBA. The thing is, as you get older, you need to move into management. The only technical people that are still doing the "grunt" level work are the ones that are the absolute best at it. Anyone that's >45 and just good or better than average will get pushed out or replaced by someone younger that can do the same job. This is because that older engineer still doing coding or modeling, etc has a huge salary compared to that fresh out. Simply put, fresh outs don't get management jobs.
For your career, I recommend some kind of management course. People who combine the deeper tech insight with a good commercial/managerial view often make it far.
You'll have the opportunity to meet a lot more women in your classes, so statistically the odds of you getting laid and not worrying so much about engines increases exponentially.
* Business - for the obvious reasons. It goes well with everything.
* Sociology - it turns out that people are important in most jobs. You work with them, for them (boss), and for them (customers - whether asking how they would like that or figuring out what they would like. Oh, and the mix of people in that major may present a more interesting mix than in any engineering
* Psych - because that also goes well with everything.
As a rule, engineering degrees are necessarily harder than they are good, i.e. they're all about the workload and weed out, but not so much about the deep understanding, i.e. he'll take forever finishing and burn himself out. Science degrees are otoh more about teaching something interesting. If he's attending some piss-easy school, fine maybe double engineering works, but avoid the second engineering degree if the school actually fails the appropriate precentages.
I'd recommend a second degree in physics myself. Ten year ago, Georgia Tech's physics degree gave students a full year of technicalish electives, which his engineering courses easily satisfy. A second engineering degree would require like two extra years of coursework that isn't significantly deeper than his mechanical engineering degree. An extra physics degree otoh would require only one extra year of coursework but covers considerably deeper and broader material.
In addition, all those physics classes will give him a major leg up over his ME classmates, yet physics homework's will require less work, assuming he's smart. If he isn't smart enough for the physics degree, he might try a chemistry degree, but that's shit tons of lab work.
Which was defined in the late 1970s (when I got my degree in it) as:
The imaginative development of products and product systems that satisfy the physical needs and the psychological desires of people.
This way, you won't forget who you are engineering for.
Do what you really love to do and never stop. Stay foolish and investigate the failures. There are more failures than successes and some say more to learn from failures than successes (which are necessarily preceded by many failures).
There are so many variations in engineering and subspecialties that it is impossible to guess where you will actually be in 10 years or train for all of them.
Get to a college/university that REALLY trains you how to problem solve - innovate - generate inversions - do ballpark estimates. Texas A&M & MIT would be up there on the top list for me.
No matter what courses you take, you will never stop reading and learning in engineering or you will stop being an engineer.
Get the comp sci, you'll be using it anyway, might as well make it official and know the theory as well. But for the future, consider an MBA ... The masters in business administration will open several career tracks.
Sure, seems like a good idea but when you "surprise" her with it, things deteriorate RAPIDLY.
Getting second opinions, for support, DOES NOT HELP.
Putting Arduino stickers on the head of the device is also bad.
Making it a back-up remote for MythTv apparently carries no value either.
A LED readout of minutes used, time left on batteries is not considered useful. Neither is blue tooth or java app remote control.
Try to get involved in at least one or two design team projects, which are often available even starting as a freshman - not just seniors. Be an expert in one or more areas - there's always a need for a good Powerpoint person in these teams, for example. And also learn Matlab or Comsol or something like that. Just know something and be an expert in something that nobody else is good at. The other team members and also even professors will seek you out. Note that ME and CS don't mix so well, unless you intend to go into ME CAD tool development. But knowledge of ME software design tools and basic Office tools is extremely valuable.
What you said NoisySplatter. I was on the wing side, but I knew a lot of smart infantry guys, who were in it for their own reasons. Plus, on a more cynical note, infantry has the largest casualty percentage (One would assume, I have no numbers.), so the Marines always need more riflemen. If you say infantry, I don't think any ASVAB score will dissuade the recruiter from hooking you up.
Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
One option is mechatronics, where mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, control theory, and computer science meet. Most complex mechanical systems today have some electronics in them to manage the machinery. Find a school with a good mechatronics program if you want to go that route. There aren't that many.
Mechanism design requires the visualization skills of an artist. Some of that is genetic. You've probably heard the classic joke that a sculptor, asked how he did something, said that he just chipped away the stone around the figure until it emerged. That's not a joke. The people who do that sort of thing well have that kind of clear visualization. I know such people; I'm not one of them, even though I do some mechanical design. If you have that ability, you already know it. It's rare. The number of people who ever designed a good original gun, a good original Teletype, a good original mechanical adding machine, or a good original can opener is very small.
You're ex-military. The military uses lots of little mechanical stuff that has to work under tough conditions. Getting little stuff right is hard. Latches that stay shut when they should, open easily when wanted, don't have too many parts, and keep working when cold, hot, dirty, or unlubricated are tough to design. (However, today, few consumer companies will pay for the engineering to get that right. There used to be companies like HP, IBM, and even Tupperware who did. Today, it seems to be beyond the ability of the TV remote industry to make a battery case cover that will reliably stay on. Car guys, though, do worry about that stuff.)
Having said that, even after getting a EE, I'd suggest to continue and take some formal courses in CS, or at the very least, to put a lot of attention on software engineering. A lot of EE majors cannot write sufficiently good code for any code base of a certain size and beyond. You only get enough programming education to get your job done with a EE degree, which is fine and dandy... except that you never know when an embedded software job is going to involve a small or large code base...
So, if you like to program, and you like to complement your ME background, as a Computer Scientist, I'd suggest a EE degree. It will be better than a CS degree. Then make conscious effort to not just be a coder, but a software engineer, a good programmer that can actually build good software models.
You'll be very versatile and the hot shit if you go this way IMO... and if you intend to work with the DoD or DoE, consider getting acquainted with the field and theory of systems engineering.
If you're liking the idea of some code and some controls, you can get a good foundation in both with a Computer Engineering degree. That would give you the flexibility to focus on different aspects of computing/controls systems (or one, if you find you really like a particular area) and is a perfect companion to ME. If you go all software (Computer Science), you miss out on the understanding of how the electrics/electronics work and if you go all hardware (Electrical Engineering), you miss out on the higher level integration aspects of what modern software environments can really do. Also, just being able to speak the language of MEs, EEs, and CSCs is invaluable when working in multi/inter-disciplinary scenarios.
/love/ it).
Full disclosure: I am a Computer Engineer specializing in (semi)autonomous robotics systems (and
In theory, theory always works in practice. In practice, theory rarely works. <><
is Management.
After reading your post I would recomend English for your second major.
Go into drama. You'll spend lots of time interacting directly with women, and if you get the right material, possibly fooling around with them. All for the sake of art, of course.
"Why can't everyone just be straight with me?"
"Because we live in a bendy world, dear."
Why learn ancient technology (eg, petrol or diesel powered engines)? If you want to STOP FOLLOWING the leaders and to MAKE A DIFFERENCE:
1. view Shai Agasi's 16-min TED-talk; then ...ie, to hear the arguments for going Electric.
2. pay Fora.TV to view his hour+ FORA-talk (in Melbourne, AU)
The Japanese & Chinese are WAY ahead of you in this Zero-Carbon thinking.
YMMV, or you might even just LIKE the past (It's your choice, after all)
or - having played in the military for a while - you may just like HUGE vehicles
(in fairness, Mining will still want your skills with diesel-powered machines),
but the REST OF US will probably embrace EV's when they arrive.
I, for one, am already impatient with companies like BetterPlace.com,
& our politicians for NOT preparing the way for quiet, safer & still
no less powerful machines, that are just about to launch, in cities
& forward-thinking towns across the planet.
Check it out before you invest "too much" in past technologies.
My 2 cents, only... but I guess you'll likely follow your heart,
not your head on this one. (Still, I hope your mind will rule.)
PS For direction, watch a few Bollywood movies... No Hindi required (read the subtitles, when you don't hear or get the spoken English that they tend to include) :-)
You're gonna need it to help them reverse engineer American IP.
You don't need an official minor or second on Comp. Sci. You just need to be able to code well and you can learn that in your mandatory computer classes and perhaps one elective. Anything more, learn hands on or in your spare time. What would be valuable to you is a second in either Finance or Accounting, depending upon the quality of the program(s) at the school you attend. Accounting isn't just about CPA's and debit credits - there is cost accounting and managerial accounting. Finance isn't just about buying stocks and bonds, its about how to fund a business or project. Both of those will serve you well down the road and will enable you to interface well with the other areas of your company who are concerned with the dollar and cents aspect of the business.
I have interviewed an hired many prior enlisted for engineering jobs, and I have always been impressed. I am convinced that military service either selects the best or makes the best future engineers. (from my limited anecdotal sample)
Programming is very useful for all engineers. MEs often get involved in developing processes and manufacturing technology. Programming helps with those.
There is merit in being well rounded: A minor in English or public speaking will make your resume stand out. We love engineers who can communicate effectively with non-technical people including CEOs. If you want a lot of visibility in an engineering organization, be the person who briefs the board of directors about manufacturing plans and product introductions.
Any foreign language and particularly some Chinese language (I don't know enough to say which one) couldn't hurt. I know very little about that. I studied German for 4 years and can't speak it at all.
You may have heard of the hassle software patents cause in the USA. Mechanical engineering patents are actually in almost as bad a state (they directly impact fewer people is all), and it's pretty soul destroying to discover all those innovative things you could do to improve the automobile are illegal and will be for a long time., at least until the USA, its corporations and its USPTO crumble.
Don't make the mistake of thinking the patent system is okay when applied to some fields and software is "special" - it's plain broken in all fields, it's just programmers are in the enviable position of having something to compare to, because in the early history of computing patents weren't allowed and therefore innovation was explosively quick, and there are people alive today who remember that.
First, apply to Clemson. They are a primary supporter of the International Center for Automotive Research a first rate place. The center is located very near BMW in upstate SC. There are undergraduate internships with BMW. Second, get started in ME and then decide if you want to add more. A good second field of study in addition to ME is a language. s/f, jim
I have ME and mechatronics degrees, and the added electrical/control/programing really helps. And it only added one year of extra classes to get the 2nd degree.
The VP in charge said it was just sad that American kids didn't want to put in the work and take the time to get the educational requirements of that group.
Here's what one of my Indian grad school classmates said to me, "I want to stay in school as long as I can." Never got a chance to ask him why.
The Chinese classmates value education and degrees, I think for the sake of just getting degrees - more degrees means better person (Like we Americans think more money means better person).
But here's something to ponder:
They also require at lest one of those to be a masters or doctorate. They prefer a masters & a doctorate both
OK, they require those degrees. Are they actually needed?
I can't tell you how many times I've talked to managers and people who hire folks and ask them where they get their educational requirements for a job. They fall into a couple of camps. Those that use degrees to weed people out and those that think their employees should have. I knew one manager who had this absolutely brilliant device driver programmer who had no college degree. He got rid of him because "people who write device drivers should have a college degree."
Or I knew a guy who got a MSEE on the job - a testing job that was beneath a BSEE let alone a MS. The manager, to justify reimbursing the employee for tuition, said that the education was needed for the position. The guy left with his free MSEE and got his 100K+ job and when the job was posted, you guessed it - "required MSEE" for a job that I thought a vocational school grad in electronics could do (it was just testing circuit boards and trouble shooting.)
You know that the employer was saying shit like, "We can't find anyone qualified to do this job! American kids just don't want to go to school!"
I also think there are managers who like the ego boost of having PhDs working for them or they have a PhD and want their employees to have one - I guess to share the pain.
tl:dr Many educational requirements are unnecessary.
High gas prices and modern electronics are driving car engines to be more efficient, and they still are cheap. Understand the Hybrid Synergy Drive and Mazda's Skyactiv Diesel, before chasing fuel cells. The fuel cell car of the future will be competing against an improved plug in Prius instead of a regular Corolla.
You could figure out where all your materials come from and study something like geology and mineralogy.
Je me souviens.
Honestly, for the type of stuff you're talking about, I would try and get to upper level / grad school as quickly as possible. If you want a true R&D job at a big auto company, a PhD is not a bad idea. You will probably want a Masters at least, and the extra 1.5 to 2 years to get that degree is usually worth it financially (not as true for the PhD).
In my experience, controls programming is very different from what goes on it most CS programs. Real time control of physical systems generally requires pretty simple code, or the overhead to run it will be cost prohibitive. Also, there is somewhat of a divide in that field between physics based and math based approaches. Both have the good and bad points, but in general, the physics based approach is more prevalent in ME programs, and leans towards the practical, and application in physical systems, where math based approaches are more common in EE programs and lean towards the theoretical, and application in electrical systems.
Also, make sure you are involved in actual lab / project work as much as possible in addition to course work. Go and talk to professors about this until you find one you think you might want to work with. Formula SAE or Eco Car programs would be your best bet for automotive.
First, there are a lot of schools - real universities, not trade schools - that have an automotive engineering major. If you want to design cars, that might be something to at least investigate.
The computerized components of cars tend to be pretty low level. CS tends to be pretty theoretical. If you want the computer knowledge for application to the automotive work, you should probably think more computer engineering or electrical engineering.
Personally, I'm not sure it's possible to double major like that and live to tell the tale. The school may not even let you. But maybe you're smarter, or harder working, than I am.
The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
As a working ME--I have my BS, 4-5 years as an engineer in aerospace, and am a part time MS student about halfway through--I would recommend you instead spend your time on an MS in Mechanical Engineering (or even just a BS), work a few years, then go back to school to advance your education and qualifications in whatever you found you enjoy the most. Otherwise you're just guessing at what career you want based on the university class offerings or what people on the internet suggest.
One of my colleagues had 3 BS degrees and about 20 years of experience. In general, his other BS degrees were less beneficial to him than a single Master's degree would have been. His degrees are now dated, so they didn't offer current skill sets to him anymore, and he seemed to rely more on his experience than his education(s). Also, since he was an arrogant turd, he lost credibility and was considered someone who had breadth but lacked technical depth because he made a few minor technical mistakes. Had he been nicer it may have been overlooked--sometimes personality and characteristics go a lot farther than your qualifications, for better or for worse.
You'll need an MS in mechanical engineering if you want to do serious technical work and make important technical calls. You'll also need experience. An MS gives you a $10k/year pay jump, but, more importantly, it communicates a higher level of technical proficiency, which makes management more willing to trust you with the harder (in other words more challenging and interesting) technical problems. A second BS gives you no pay bonus, and while you'll probably be quite useful technically and more diverse in your skill sets for the first 10 years, your utility and unique capabilities are hard to qualify and utilize since there aren't a lot of occupations set up to leverage multiple BS-level proficiencies. (Automotive won't marry CS/IT and ME experience as well, but Intel might). In automotive, you'd probably get interesting work, but most often by accident--because somebody else can't do it as well and you have a better answer ready--rather than by assignment and qualifications. That will get you promotions and such, but without an MS in one field or the other you'll probably hit a ceiling and constantly feel underutilized. Because you will be.
However, what you're talking about in the original post is almost making programmatic calls and deciding corporate strategy. That's quite different. One good route to making those decisions with an enjoyable, stable career is to get an MSME plus a few years experience on the technical side, then go to night school for an MBA. After you have the MBA, move to positions where you manage engineering teams and work corporate bids and strategy. You'll make the calls. And you'll see really quickly why things don't always go the way they ought to. You'll make more money, but if you aren't careful you'll also work and/or travel too many hours to really enjoy it.
Or if you find you really want to develop the next technology say on fuel cells, you can go for a PhD. You'll teach, do research, and consult. And you'll have a lot of direct influence on the ideas that get developed through your roles as a teacher and a consultant. But you'll work narrow subjects at the research level, the guys with MS degrees working at big firms will implement those ideas, and the guys with business plus technical degrees will decide which ideas get funded and implemented. If you find you like research and teaching though, it's a good option--pretty good pay with lots of time off, so your lifestyle is great.
If you want a good match for ME today, I would go with courses in digital electronics, rather than CS. The reasons are pretty simple: it seems to me that you are kind of aiming at control systems for your improved automobiles; digital electronics provide those control systems.
Yes, today most control systems are ultimately governed by software; but you can pick up sufficient programming skills as you go. On the other hand, all the programming in the world will not help you build a machine if there are no control systems properly designed to interface the machine and the computer.
Petroleum engineers have the best starting salaries. And we will be using oil until you retire.
Mechanical engineering has a lot to do with it, so it won't be a huge jump.
I did this myself, I am a mechanical engineer and I'm working in petroleum production now.
Many oil companies define themselves as "energy" companies now, meaning they also have bussiness in renewable sources. They also research on energy efficiency. Of course the big chips are in petroleum technology, but still those companies wan't to remain relevant when fossil stops being our main energy source.
Many governments give aid to renewable energy generation technology, and government contracts can sometimes be very favourable to the private sector.
Automobile engineering isn't a bad field to work in, but energy certainly has better opportunities. Energy companies will pay you full salary to do a doctorate in their field, for example.
Instead of a double major, take a strong math minor, and consider a MS in mathematics concentrating on applied math/operations research.
The other thing to consider is a Computer Engineering or EE Masters degree that focuses on control systems. Just about everything these days involves automated control.
The problem with the CS degree is that I don't have that much faith you'll actually get a solid -engineering- education from a CS department. You'll either get research/theory, or you'll get trained for the popular topics of the day.
For the record, I was a Math major in college, only because my school didn't offer a CS degree. Otherwise I would have ended up majoring in CS. I was lucky enough to have 2 undergrad courses in Operations Research and I enjoyed them a lot. Not only was the math itself interesting, but the focus was on applications rather than proof, A Good Thing in my view for an engineer (including a Software Engineer.)
Thanks for asking.
... ...
-USMC infantry (aka grunt, if this person had any more useful aptitudes, the USMC would have placed him in a more specialized role)
Very unlikely the above poster has any actual military experience. My (Army) branch of choice was Field Artillery, and I emphasize -my choice-. Why join the Army or the Marine Corps to do a job you can do in the civilian world for more money and less hassle? People in the military are very often motivated by other reasons THANKFULLY!!!
Philosophy would be an excellent complimentary choice if seeking to earn a leadership role in an organization through demonstration of your ability to see the bigger picture over the arc of your career.
Everyone is thinking about this all wrong. Go with something that shows you are well-rounded. You will blow HR departments away with a major in Speech or English or something that demonstrates your ability to communicate effectively. Or how about a language such as Chinese? You know, the rumors are true, the ability to communicate effectively is understated.
Think outside the box, what about Art History?
Become a proficient and clear writer. It is almost a cliche that engineers cannot write. If you CAN write, that will really set you apart and make you valuable wherever you go. Though you say you want to get into the automotive industry, you may be thinking differently 4+ years from now after you have gone through the engineering degree program.
Also be sure to have some fun in college and be sociable. I'm not talking about the Thirsty Thursday beer busts (not all of the time, anyway), but you should become active in extracurricular clubs and organizations. I was active in my school's Outing Club and formed friendships that last to this day (and I am 15+ years beyond my bachelor's degree). It makes you a real person that people enjoy working with, another plus.
Our country will facilitate the off-shoring of any skill it can. Engineers in the USA are doomed to the same fate suffered by factory workers in the last 60 years. By the time the assholes in D.C. and N.Y.C. are done trading you, your hard work and expensive education won't be worth a shit.
ME is likely the biggest part of it, but if you have the time and energy, also pursue something you love. Music, art, design, history, Classics. Any of these might lead you to more insightful engineering, or just provide a need diversion. All work and no play leads to an early grave.
Physics + ME helps you understand both the "how" and the "why".
Art.
Philosophy.
Sociology.
English.
Something to use the other side of your brain.
It'll create more depth and give you a broader base of knowledge to draw from.
I never reply to ACs. Their opinion doesn't matter since they are too lazy to even post under a handle. Save your time for important things, like a thoughtful discussion. Not trying to flame you, just giving me my thoughts.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Stick with programming, and the next time some uppity EE grad says "you know, you're not a real engineer", show him your engineering ring from ME and tell him to suck it. It'll be worth it, guaranteed.
I stayed an extra year and satisfied requirements for Mechanical and Materials engineering.
My rationale then (and now) was this:
How can you reasonably make a mechanical design (let alone a cutting edge one) without a thorough understanding of the options that the various materials present. Some things can be made from anything, but some should be made from SPECIFIC AL alloys, others specific Ferrous alloys and still other things should really be made from plastic(s).
If you don't know which material you should pick, or if you pic at random or per the status quo, you aren't much of a mechanical engineer in my view.
Ouch
learning their native language is critical if you are considering picking up any of the girls.
New Economic Perspectives
to any and all tech degrees, University should have 1-2 classes that will give you a decent intro to business. Ideally, if you can pick up a minor of some type in entrepreneurial business. The reason is that engineers working for larger company are going to get screwed over no matter what. Engineers that come up with PATENTABLE ideas and then start their OWN business, will clean up quickly.
However, for a dual major, ME and CS are excellent choices.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Unless you want to work in two or more wildly unrelated fields, a CS degree probably isn't the most useful choice. A CS degree means spending time on database theory and operating system theory and language theory and networks of the sort used only by large organizations not car engines or solar panel farms, and other abstractions that won't be useful. Go for it if you find it interesting, but most of it isn't going to overlap.
The biggest area of software knowledge you'll use will probably be for device control, instrumentation and data acquisition, embedded and such, and for those things often EEs do better than CS majors, at least as far as I've seen. (Disclaimer: I do not know all or see all...but I have worked in industry and academia.) CS probably won't cover at all SCADA, GPIB, OBD2 and dozens of other interface and bus technologies useful in engine development or the energy industry. (And these are much more fun to work with than most other things in computing - my personal opinion.)
In dealing with the real world, where energy and safety are at stake, engineers and physicists seem to do better with avoiding overdesigning software (except when they get carried away with some software development fad) while CS majors tend to go off to la-la land with class hierarchies and overgeneralized designs. There are exceptions, of course.
The other big use for software in the areas of energy efficiency, engines, and such, is simulation. Simulations that take into account more real-world effects, higher resolution detail, and provide ways for engineers to try more design variations per unit time to find the optimum tradeoffs. While a good simulation app takes serious software engineering, much of the work is done by physicists. OTOH, many physicists write crappy spaghetti code. Efforts like Software Carpentry are helping to improve things.
But really, the area of systems engineering might overall be the best for the goals you describe. It connects the other areas of engineering, economics, and knowing physics and software development wouldn't hurt for being a good systems engineer.
I know many scientists and engineers who are good at software, never took a class or very few from the CS departments, and are the key players in the software they use for practical cutting edge R&D and production. Depth and breadth of engineering, science and a bit of business seems to have been worth more in their careers.
So if it's up for a vote, I say Systems Engineering, or as a second choice Physics.
I'm a multi disciplined Engineer working for one of the larger Power Utilities in the US. My first degree was a BSEE with a Power Systems Option and my minor was English. I would recommend that for basic business communications skills but I can also say having a BSCS to complement my Electrical was the best thing I ever did. Not only does it open my options if I was ever to lose my job, but it has made me the selection for a number of key projects that included both Power Systems Controls as well as the Control Systems behind the scenes. The Databases, etc... It gives me the ability to design the "Entire" project, rather than just my small portion. Can't say enough about that. There is also the option of getting your Masters. I didn't because in my particular position it wasn't a plus. If, I was to change and go into management either that or a MBA would probably matter. I have been offered, but enjoy the technical side more than the management side but, it's something you need to consider as well.
"Computers are a lot like Air Conditioners" "They both work great until you start opening Windows"
There's so much more to math outside of a math minor. What's that require, maybe ONE proof class? That shouldn't qualify anyone to put "math" on their piece of paper. (This is more of a rant against people who think a minor in math is going to impress anyone - it shouldn't/won't.)
You want to really experience math? Take real analysis at the senior or, preferably, graduate level. Stick that on your resume' and smoke it.
PS: I don't reply to ACs.
I believe that many people have a misconception about what computer science is really about. Computer science is about algorithms, sorting, databases, mathematics, and not so much about software development and programming.
I studied electrical engineering and in my job interviews before and after graduation I was repeatedly told that they were looking for people with more programming experience. After being told that so many times I took a look at a degree in computer science. At my university the computer science department lives under the liberal arts college. In the liberal arts college they require all students to take X credits or foreign language, Y credits in natural science, and Z credits in social science. The core courses in both computer science and computer engineering were largely identical but the computer science degree had many requirements outside of the core that had nothing to do with computer science but were there to fulfill the requirements of the liberal arts college. The computer engineering degree overlapped quite a bit with my electrical engineering degree so the requirements in the engineering program were already met, things like physics, chemistry, mathematics, "pre-engineering" (the courses covering the basics of the engineering process), and composition/communications.
Other schools place computer science in the same realm as engineering and so you might not have the same experience I did. I chose computer engineering over computer science since I did not feel the desire to take another foreign language course (the engineering college still had a humanities requirement and I took Spanish to fulfill that requirement, going to the liberal arts college would have meant I needed another semester of foreign language) or take a class on public speaking (all liberal arts majors had to take a public speaking course at my school).
Depending on how you feel about things like taking a foreign language (something I recommend), studying in the social sciences (which you'll have to take in any four year program it's just a matter of quantity), and other topics in the realm outside of engineering a major in liberal arts might be something that you enjoy. It sounds to me like you really want a broader study inside engineering. Other people here have suggested electrical engineering.because of its high content in control theory. I can agree to that but control theory is emphasized in other engineering disciplines like aerospace, industrial, and biomedical engineering. Software engineering is becoming a bachelor degree track in many schools now, that is something to consider as well besides computer science and probably something more fitting to your desire to do embedded controls.
If you want to take an emphasis in bio-energy sources then you may want to consider a degree in biomedical engineering, biological systems engineering, chemical engineering, or environmental engineering. A college education that leads to two engineering degrees will almost definitely provide room to fit in plenty of study in programming and control theory. A proper choice in majors will allow you to take some courses that may be open to only those people in certain degree programs. For example a course on control systems will almost always be open to anyone majoring in engineering but a course on microorganisms might only be open to someone majoring in biology or biological systems engineering. (I use a microorganism class as an example because if you want to work on bio-diesel or ethanol that is something you might find very interesting.)
Where I went to school there is a program called "agricultural engineering" which has an interesting mix of mechanical and biological systems engineering. That is something that might be right up your alley. Farm machinery use a lot of interesting means to transfer power so they cover mechanical, electrical, and hydraulic systems. Moving and processing grain leads to some interesting courses on control theory and biology. There is also the possibility of taking course that might be of a side interest to you like erosion control, sustainable farming, and natural resources.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
2nd Major / Minor is allowed? At my school when you work on an engineering degree, you could not have a minor or earn a second degree at the same time. Taking 5 yrs of constant 18 credits was tough enough.
Don't get me wrong, if a minor were allowed, I only needed 3 more hours of advanced Math. Alas, it wasn't allowed.
I attended a top 10 engineering school in the USA .. and currently ranked #2 in overall "value" by a well known magazine.
Engineers may be better at spotting the need for having multiple systems simultaneously and that that isn't the hallmark of blind step-by-step processes.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Good luck working in the auto industry with a Mech E after we've already passed peak oil. If you were forward thinking you'd be starting up a buggy whip business and working on modern horse drawn carriage designs.
Hi As second degrees, I would suggest going into operations research and systems management. Learn industrial design and theories of manufacturing and manufacturability if you can. Most programs heavily gloss over those two subjects. The entire automobile industry is based on large scale manufacturing and eking out as much cost out of their parts. If your insight can reduce the cost and reduce waste while improve performance, then that will give you a leg up on the competition. Auto manufacturing hinges on suppliers and sub suppliers and knowing how to get as much productivity out of limited resources.
There are too many problems with engineering as a career. I know because I was one for 22 years. Now I am a dentist.
Here's some of what's wrong with engineering:
As you age your pay keeps going up until you hit 40 YO and start to have a life outside work, then they want you to go into management or marketing. Try to stay in engineering and you'll get laid off because you make too much money- after all, they can hire two guys right out of school and work them 80 hours per week for what they pay you... All those years they were giving you pay raises no one ever asked if you'd like to have a few more days off instead of a pay raise and even if you talk to HR people about it, all you'll get is a blank stare.
These days it's nearly impossible to stay at any engineering job for very long. Every time the stock drops a point or two, they start tossing bodies out onto the street. When you go to interviews for new jobs they say "I see you skip around a lot. If I were to hire you why should I believe you'll stay here?". If you did manage to stay at your last job long enough to get a little more vacation time that will reset at your new job.
Part of the problem is that the bigger companies collude to fix benefits and salaries for engineers (and all their other employees) because it makes it hard for any of them to steal people from each other. When I worked for HP, every year at annual pay-raise time they herded all of us engineers into a meeting room then proudly told us about how the HR guys had gotten together will all the other big engineering employers (Motorola, Intel, Cisco, etc., etc.) HR people to decide what the benefits and pay were going to be. Every time I sat through one of those meetings I would talk to coworkers who seemed oblivious to the implications of what they just heard. The essential message was this: "here's what we're going to pay you and don't bother looking for a job elsewhere because you won't get any more pay or better benefits".
The manufacturing jobs are going to third-world, pollution loving toilets. Following right behind them are the engineering jobs. The "good" news is that the way things are going, and if the GOP gets what they want, this country will soon become one of those pollution loving third-world toilets and the manufacturing jobs will start to come back, and maybe engineering jobs, too.
Engineering can be interesting work but it often becomes drudgery. Never take a job that isn't exactly what you want to do because you will get pigeon-holed into whatever the company wants and then it becomes difficult to break out and do something else. Never feel bad about leaving a company in the middle of some project you're working on if it isn't the right work for you. The company doesn't deserve any more loyalty than it would extend to you, and it would extend none.
Find work that is fulfilling. I switched to dentistry after years of sitting in dark rooms running circuit simulations all day then going home and asking myself who benefited from all that work. With dentistry I know exactly who benefits and how. Relieving the pain of a toothache or improving someone's appearance so they have confidence to go to a job interview, or even just to open their mouth in public has a major impact on their lives and is very satisfying for me. I sleep very well at night.
Business?
In a school environment where, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, the goal of business is still said to be the making of money, you'd do yourself a favor to avoid the indoctrination you'd get from that department. (On the other hand, if you already understand where Marx really went wrong, scouting out the enemy can be useful. Might be worth a minor.)
Economics?
There isn't a school in the world that can give you a valid education in economics. Getting a BA in comparative religion would teach you more about the fundamentals of economics than getting a PHD in economics.
Statistics?
No reason to major in statistics unless you want to become a Wican.
The statistics you'll get in a BS course in computer science is good enough for much of what requires statistics. The same course will come with most good engineering courses at the bachelors level. About half that course is often taught in a good associates level program in information science.
If a double major is a must, physics also includes the statistics, and a bunch of other stuff that will help in mechanical engineering.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
I only have a BSCS, so maybe it's just sour grapes, but I've never really had much of an opinion of a university-only education.
You might do well to consider yourself, if you're willing to keep after the PhD, to be on a much better track than your fellow students getting the free ride.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Get out of school, get experience, go back.
If one wants a little more insurance, add minors in physics, math, CS, and/or a foreign language.
Even though I'm partial to CS, I don't think there is a school around that can teach it right. The most important pieces of CS are the math -- grammars and formal languages and the stuff that builds up to that.
If one absolute must pursue a second major, physics is going to complement ME best. And the internships will help keep the extra time in school from warping one's perspective.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
If you found your CS to theoretical or something, I think you may have missed the point.
Or maybe the CS program at your school is not being taught very well.
Highly recommend the work in formal languages if you need to understand controls systems.
Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
Just be good at what you do, don't fall in the trap of being jack of all and master of none! Most of the posts give generally good advice, the thing is that it might be a very poor one for you personally. It is true that everything you will do would be multidisciplinary, but how confident are you that another degree would give you the right skills, and would no be like prescibing a medication without knowing the diagnosis. And "Mechanical engineer" is a serious condition :). I am one.
The best wisdom I can give is to take a look at this http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm and decide for yourself. It is a very personal decision, whether you would opt for some, or you go and acquire (or learn) it on your own.
Also don't underestimate the arts. All these things train the left brain, but it is the right one responsible for ideas, concepts and breakthroughs...
Good Luck
I think what you really want is what is called Mechatronics. It is the combination of mechanical and electronics. In the states I believe it might go under robotics.
Well since I havent seen anyone say this. Thank you for your service. This is coming from a current Devil Doc, thank you Semper Fi. Sorry I have no clue about mechanics.
If I were in your position, I would stick with the ME for now. For one thing, you can do a BS + MS in the same amount of time (or less) that you can do a double-major BS, and the MS will get you farther in the job market than a double BS. When you become an upperclassman, you will have the opportunity to choose electives from other departments, and maybe even some grad-level courses, which will allow you some limited space to explore your interests. If you're interested in controls, look to EE departments -- where I did my MS and Ph.D., the EE controls classes were filled with students from other departments. Perhaps other universities offer those in the CS department, but I doubt it. And don't limit yourself to controls: If you're interested in biofuels, maybe look for some relevant chemical or bioengineering courses. You should also look for undergraduate research opportunities, summer internships, and student projects that coincide with your interests (e.g., a solar-car-racing team, if you're going to a university that has one).
When you finish your BS, you will have a lot more opportunities to specialize during an MS year. Not only can you switch fields if you like (e.g., switch to CS if you think it is really the way to go), but many universities offer specialized multi-disciplinary MS and certificate programs that are targeted to specific skill sets. My university offered quite a few of those -- off the top of my head, I remember computer-aided manufacturing, a multidisciplinary semiconductor processing program, and a business certificate aimed at succeeding in the global (as opposed to American) business environment. Universities are now adding similar programs targeted at biofuels and other alternative energy technologies.
Chinese *might* be helpful....but...you know who speaks Chinese? About half of China. You know who speaks English? Everyone.
Think about the humanities - anthropology, history, or sociology would be good choices. Life is more than work, especially after you have a spouse and children.
Hello. I am a mech eng with 15 years of work in the field. I have designed most everything between steel buildings over laboratory equipment to plastic cases for electronics.
One thing I have seen is that most mech engs are notoriously lousy at math and specifically making calculations on their designs. It is assumed that we validate our decisions, but as the end result is mostly go/no go (either things break or they don't) the designers much too often think "I don't have time for boring calculations, I'll just lump on a lot of metal and then it'll hold". Most of the time this works, but quite often they look like fools when asked to explain their designs and that is usually when I am called in to fix things. Because I produce readable documentation containing arguments and calculations explaining the design choices.
So my advice to you, having been in the same spot, is to read up on Matlab if it's programming you want. Or better - MathCAD (saves a LOT of documentation and explanations). Knowing some other programming languages is a fine thing as it teaches structured thinking and understanding why various CAE tools behave like they do, even though you may never use them later.
That aside, forget cars. That is a mature industry with pathetic profit margins, and you design and redesign the same items over and over again for lousy pay. I would rather recommend alternative energy if you want exciting work in the frontier of fields, but you really don't have to limit yourself to one particular field. As a mechanical design engineer you are the master of any device that is made of atoms.
If you want to set yourself apart from your peers and find a lucrative niche, I suggest focussing on the calculation side of things, as most of your colleagues will generally suck royally at that and be happy to throw the jobs and the money at you. Especially since the pressure to certify and validate things only increase as time moves on, and more and more companies find out that they have to document more and more. Quite often they are desperate, because they read the fine print and realized that they will not get paid unless all paperwork - including calculations - are approved and rubberstamped.
I make a good bit over six figures annually, and I'm just a BSc with a slight knack for algebra. Nothing I do is harder than the first semesters of calculus.
IMO, if you're hoping a second major will help with your first job, don't bother. It really doesn't matter at all. If a company producing mechanical products that require a control system, chances are they already have an electrical engineer or two on the team for that purpose or they'll simply hire a consultant if it's a once off type of project. I think rather than going for a 2nd major, what you should do is to take up modules that teach you employable skillsets. This is something I find lacking in alot of college engineering programmes. Colleges are mostly using some outdated technology for their teachings, while the fundamental concepts remain largely the same, I think employers would rather hire someone who already has experience using the current version. Graduating from an engineering programme alone doesn't mean you have the necessary know-hows to contribute to a real world engineering task.
"Life," said Marvin dolefully, "loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it."
There is little overlap in a BSEE with a BSME; and so the time investment would be tremendous. Instead, focus on a specialization within EE that you find fascinating. I am getting my MSEE in semiconductor devices and solid states to complement my BSME. It's often been said to get a management degree, but save that bullet for when your already working in a company (if that's your decision); else it won't bridge as far you think. In a realistic standpoint, get a JD... you'll travel farther than a MBA student will. Use the legal knowledge as means to make sound business decisions and not go the average IP route.
I am a bit disconcerted by all the "practical" suggestions (business, CS, Chinese), etc.
Part of going to college is seeing the rest of the world, so you have a context for what you are doing in your major: this is why they have breadth requirements.
Especially, when it comes to your "second major" or "minor" or whatever it is called at your school, it's not going to make any difference in a job hunt. These days, all they really do is look for the 4 year ticket in any "technical field". Lots of people who work as engineers in one field got their degree in a different one.
You'll have plenty of time to branch out from your primary field of study when you start working, either by necessity or because you're curious. If you want to learn business methods, take a semester of business, so you know how things work, etc. You could always get an MBA later if it floats your boat. What you typically won't have time or access to is good small group discussions in the humanities with learned advisors. At work, if you're an ME, and you're curious about EE, there will almost certainly be EEs around to explain stuff, have discussions over a beer after work, etc. Most businesses don't have a lot of scholars in, say, archaeology, or medieval history, or literature.
There is also HUGE value in developing your writing and presentation skills. An enormous number of engineers can't write a convincing proposal, tell a story, explain what they did concisely. Sure, they can write a test procedure or record events, but if you want to branch out and/or move up, you need to be able to tell a story. And by presentation skills, I do not mean better use of PowerPoint, although a class in graphic arts to learn about composition wouldn't hurt. I mean the ability to stand up in front of a crowd and tell them something useful, or sell them your ideas, or whatever. You don't have to be Olivier, declaiming the bard, but you do need to be able to be comfortable speaking, and projecting, etc.
...as an ME working on unmanned spacecraft for over two decades, my EE courses have been remarkably valuable. Understanding what the other half needs and WHY has helped me make me more efficient.
I have some routine statements I tell people in college and here's one: When I go out to do an oil change on my Chevy I know to bring the 9/16" wrench, my shorter oil pan and the big filter wrench. I know because I have done the job before. In college you do not know what tools you will need for your future endeavors and each course is putting a tool in your toolbox. Gather all the tools you can, you need to pay attention to EVERY course you take, including electives. I took an art course and guess what, I do presentations requiring me to make slides explaining my designs and I use info I learned in that course. Chemistry had also been useful, as has Controls, Statics, Materials, Thermal - the list goes on. Even the most innocuous sounding course can contain info you might use someday, so PAY ATTENTION. Don't go for the degree, go for the knowledge. The degree follows.
... although you should also be thinking of an exit strategy (to Europe, Asia, etc.)
butanol
Accountant/Engineers can have great career paths.
Plus your strong math skills will suit you well.
If your into biofuels/fuel cells and looking for ways to make a better car, you might want to do Mechanical + Chemical engineering. Alternatively, if you were into alternative energy, I think Mechanical Engineering + a Wind Power associate-level certificate program might be a good way to go. If you are talking about creating control systems, you might like Mechanical + Computer Engineering. Computer Science is more about algorithm design and problem solving, optimization and complexity - it is a specialization of mathematics. I prefer to think of Computer Science more as Computational Theory. (There is also Software Engineering, which is different from Computer Science). I am only talking degrees here, not what type of career you get with the degree. Oh yeah, also don't forget the greater options of graduate school - there is a world of difference between an undergraduate course and graduate courses (although many upper level undergraduate courses and honors courses are also more fun and challenging). Then there is the certificate route - for example, at UW-Madison you could avoid the whole business degree route and get a business certificate, focusing on human resources for your electives (6 courses, 2 electives) with the intent of enhancing your opportunities at being a team supervisor. My final mistake I have made is not going for more internships and getting to know more people in the industry - they may be more beneficial than a second degree. Real-world experience is what you need on top of a degree - take a look at the hiring requirements of your field. Ever wonder how people at entry level jobs get 2-3 years experience? Internships.
There is a lot of lip service given to model driven design but to truly explore the trade-space between different mechanical designs and understand their impact not only on mechanical performance parameters but also on the "ilities" (e.g. reliability of components, producability of a design, maintainbility, usability or human systems integration) and the always important life cycle cost modeling you need a good background in modeling and simulation. That's not typically a course of study offered for undergraduate degrees but you can lay the foundation with a CS minor and focus on discrete event simulation.
After 50 years in ME and other things, clarify what you want.
- for reward in cash, marry the boss's daughter , take control of business. This needs understanding of business, economics and law, that is a lot more than a second major. Part time study for life required.
- for reward of doing things , get a job, develop job, maybe lower pay but very satisfying and do voluntary work to help others, again part time study for life required.
It does not stop at 'formal learning.
Regards Eion MacDonald
You described what you want to do. Everyone ignored it in favor of personal faves and opinion.
Chem is your next obvious degree if you want to do combustion, fuels, and alt energy.
..do i see reverse prejudice in this: "The bad news is out of 65 guys and 1 woman in that second floor cave, only 1 guy is caucasian and speaks English as a 1st language."..; -or- are the Job Specs/Requirements overextended. One doesn't need all that "Job training" to do a functionally more-than-adequate job, based on the job needs/goals!
If you are interested in fuel cells, I would suggest materials science, as that field, and to a lesser extent chemical engineering, is where most of the research regarding fuel cells comes from. The materials engineers develop different microstructures for the anodes and cathodes needed to make more stable and efficient fuel cells.
No one knows what they really need to learn to do a job until they've done it for a while. Go out and get a job as close to what you want as possible. Then in 18months think about college again.
Premature optimization is the root of all evil.
J.
Unless you in the rare position of being able to complete a double major in the same amount of time as a single major, your probably better off getting a BS and the an MS.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
I have completed a double major in economics and math. By now I am almost certain that completing a double major in any subjects is a waste of time.
So you're eager to learn more than what's offered by one major and you think second major will help. Bad idea! Having to complete a second major will fill up your schedule and make it almost impossible to take interesting electives from departments outside of your major departments. At the same time, you will probably realize that not all required courses from your "second major" are cool and rosy and you wish you didn't have to take them. From my experience, my "second" major was math. When I declared it I was too naive to realize that not all required math courses are interesting or useful to me. For example, I absolutely hated taking courses like Abstract Algebra and Complex Analysis. At the same time, I wish I had more time to take courses like Measure Theory, Numerical Analysis, Probability, Optimization, and Statistics. 2nd major was a bad idea. If you have too much spare time in college just cherry pick the best classes offered from other departments. Don't tie yourself to a second department.
Seems like a curious/hard work choice just for something to do until you make up your mind. Most of us just go to college and get drunk a lot.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
In the time it would take you to fulfill the requirements for another bachelors, you could already have earned at least a year (if not more) towards a masters degree in comp. sci. or ME. It is not unheard of to get a science bachelors in one field and then switch to something else for your graduate work. Worst case scenario, you would be registered as a masters student and have to take a handful of comp. sci. courses in order to get up to speed.
Be prepared to go work somewhere other than the US.
but you'll want to take some Art History classes or similar.
There are girls.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
Industrial Engineering is something that is relevant in most industries: manufacturing, services, health care, etc. It also goes well with the Math minor.
I would say you should go for Materials Engineering.
If you're actually interested in alternative energies, or cutting edge new designs, a background in Materials is priceless.
I'm a Materials Engineer, and you don't understand how many companies do not know what Materials Engineering is. I spent 1.5 years applying to "Materials Engineer" positions where they are actually looking for 1) stock room manager or 2) Mechanical Engineer with Materials knowledge.