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Demystifying UEFI, the Overdue BIOS Replacement

An anonymous reader writes "After more than 30 years of unerring and yet surprising supremacy, BIOS is taking its final bows. Taking its place is UEFI, a specification that begun its life as the Intel Boot Initiative way back in 1998 when BIOS's antiquated limitations were hampering systems built with Intel's Itanium processors. UEFI, as the article explains, is a complete re-imagining of a computer boot environment, and as such it has almost no similarities to the PC BIOS that it replaces."

379 comments

  1. Slashdot by North+Korea · · Score: 0, Troll

    Seriously, it's almost brilliant how different Slashdot articles contradict themselves. Just yesterday we talked about how bad thing it is that Microsoft employees UEFI , and now were saying it's long overdue.

    1. Re:Slashdot by tepples · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not UEFI as bad as much as the possibility that Microsoft will require OEMs to use the secure boot feature of UEFI to lock out the owner of a PC from installing a competing operating system as a condition of shipping the PC with Windows 8.

    2. Re:Slashdot by Quantum_Infinity · · Score: 5, Informative

      There's nothing wrong with Slashdot "articles" contradicting themselves, because they are not articles written by Slashdot staff. They are stories submitted by users and there's nothing wrong in contradiction arising out of two stories (which are basically opinions based on some facts) submitted by two different people.

    3. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here.... MS bashing is always a slashdot thing...

    4. Re:Slashdot by afidel · · Score: 5, Informative

      You seem to be missing the difference between UEFI and UEFI systems defaulting to only running signed boot loaders (possibly without a way for the end user to change the setting, though if I had to guess that won't be happening in anything but some tablets from companies like say Sony). As to EUFI being a complete re-imagining, not really. It's more of a proprietary implementation of the ideas from Sun's OpenBoot.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    5. Re:Slashdot by l_bratch · · Score: 4, Informative

      It seems that EFI may not be the brilliant thing that it is supposed to be. Somebody doing a lot of work involving it blogs here - http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/ - and there are lots of depressing things to read there. To quote from the page:

      > It's an awful thing and I've lost far too much of my life to it. It complicates the process of booting for no real benefit to the OS. The only real advantage we've seen so far is that we can configure boot devices in a vaguely vendor-neutral manner without having to care about BIOS drive numbers. Woo.

    6. Re:Slashdot by Tsingi · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with Slashdot "articles" contradicting themselves, because they are not articles written by Slashdot staff. They are stories submitted by users and there's nothing wrong in contradiction arising out of two stories (which are basically opinions based on some facts) submitted by two different people.

      Whoa!

      You mean we don't all agree on everything?

      I'm in danger of forming an opini... Nope, it went away.

    7. Re:Slashdot by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      What is the probability that vendors won't exploit the lock-in capabilities with UEFI? I bet close to 0%.

      Good luck trying to convince people that vendor lock-in is a bad thing, though. Seems like most just want a fucking iPad so they can play Angry Birds...

    8. Re:Slashdot by geekoid · · Score: 2

      They are just that, article about what is going in in the industry. There isn't a 'Side' to be pushed.

      And no, it's not lost on me that someone with the UID of 'North Korea' thinks that a news site should only push one side of a discussion.

      That said, the issues wasn't Win 8 using UEFI, there in a position to abuse UEFI by buying the OEMs.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:Slashdot by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Since that quote is wrong, I don't think I;ll bother with the link.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:Slashdot by l_bratch · · Score: 1

      How is the quote wrong? I didn't write it, so I don't make any claims to its correctness, but the entire blog appears to be written by a person knowledgeable in the field.

    11. Re:Slashdot by jdkc4d · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not so much worried about MSFT requiring OEMs to use the secure boot feature to lock out the owner, but instead I am worried that the oem's will drop UEFI on the hard disk in a hidden partition, instead of storing it on the motherboard in a non-volitaile state. Wiping your hard disk when installing a new OS, or re-imaging a computer could have disastrous effects.

    12. Re:Slashdot by houstonbofh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am sure this will happen with several vendors. And then watch the resurgence of the whitebox. Also, a huge new swath of BIOS hacking forums. Not to mention eBay auctions for "Unlocked Dell Deminsion!"

    13. Re:Slashdot by webheaded · · Score: 1

      I'm finding a lot of people here have a hard time with reading comprehension lately. Maybe I'm getting older and crankier about bullshit...I don't know, but I get tired of the half assed discussion I see from people sometimes. Read the fucking article. COMPREHEND WHAT IT SAYS. Apples and oranges are different things though they are both fruit.

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    14. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...to use the secure boot feature of UEFI to lock out the owner of a PC from installing a competing operating system as a condition of shipping the PC with Windows 8.

      OK, that might be a side effect. However, MS gains nothing from it as you've stated it. At that point, they've already sold their license. If you replace it with something else they don't really care (those 1% of users on desktop Linux aren't really scaring them). However, you've really twisted it. They are doing it not to lock out other operating systems. They are doing it to lock out boot kits / root kits. It is just a side effect that it would prevent other operating systems who don't have the correct security systems in place to sign their boot loaders from installing.

    15. Re:Slashdot by tepples · · Score: 1

      It is just a side effect that it would prevent other operating systems who don't have the correct security systems in place to sign their boot loaders from installing.

      Such as any homemade operating system or any other operating system whose user base is too small to convince a major OEM to sign its key.

    16. Re:Slashdot by Creepy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Right - and Apple's MacOS X always has required EFI or UEFI and not BIOS on Intel processors (and even have their own proprietary partition map rather than MBR or GPT), so it's not like the tech itself is the problem, it's the vendor lockout possibility that Microsoft may use that is the problem. Even then it doesn't stop you from running Linux in a virtual machine, but the fact that you can't install Linux as the primary boot or set up a dual boot system on Windows preloaded PCs is what people are complaining about.

      While Linux supports UEFI, I have never known anyone to install with it, but I know of at least one person that could - me. From what I remember, Windows 64 bit (Vista or 7 I think - I don't think XP 64 bit supported it) needs to be installed with UEFI/GPT partitioning or BIOS/MBR partitioning and it defaults to the latter, but it can be changed. I thought that maybe setting it up with UEFI I could make it dual boot MacOS X on non-mac hardware but I never got that working (I did manage to get it working in a VM on my laptop, however - on my desktop I believe my hardware got invalidated for not supporting Vx instructions, whereas on my laptop I have hardware essentially identical to a machine Apple ships). As far as Apple's legal requirements go, I own a real mac too, and I think their EULA is on shaky ground because copyright law allows me to back up licensed software on any hardware I want.

    17. Re:Slashdot by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Wiping your hard disk when installing a new OS, or re-imaging a computer could have disastrous effects.

      Better buy that Extended Service Plan! Best Buy has professionals that can reinstall your OS for you! What, you want to do it yourself? What are you, some sort of hax0r?!!?

    18. Re:Slashdot by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful

      (Dos) BIOS aint done 'till (Lotus) Linux won't run.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    19. Re:Slashdot by Dishevel · · Score: 1, Funny

      If only we could start a contest where Millions of iPad and iPad2 owners play angry birds while crossing busy intersections.
      Surviving player with the highest score (Angry brids score + number of feet walked) wins an iPad3.

      I would pay to watch it.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    20. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah damn those people buying devices which fill their needs. How dare they.

    21. Re:Slashdot by Dishevel · · Score: 0

      They are doing it not to lock out other operating systems. They are doing it to lock out boot kits / root kits. It is just a side effect ...

      They are not doing it to remove 1st and 4th amendment protections from the people. They are doing it to protect us from the terrorists. It is just a side effect ...

      Lols

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    22. Re:Slashdot by visualight · · Score: 2

      There isn't a 'Side' to be pushed.

      But there is a side to be pushed. The side that says that UEFI is a good idea at all. It isn't.

      It's an awful thing and I've lost far too much of my life to it. It complicates the process of booting for no real benefit to the OS. The only real advantage we've seen so far is that we can configure boot devices in a vaguely vendor-neutral manner without having to care about BIOS drive numbers. Woo.

      That quote is spot on. UEFI is a giant stack of unnecessary abstraction that doesn't "fix" anything. Everyone who has to work with it at any scale despises it.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    23. Re:Slashdot by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2

      Try to boot to a partition greater than 2TB on Bios.
      Try using a mouse in BIOS (Hint, if you're using a mouse, you are not in BIOS)

      Additionally, EFI doesn't have to do sanity checks on the HW every boot like BIOS, doesn't require reboot when changing RAM like BIOS. It is superior to BIOS in almost all ways because it has more features and can boot much faster.

      The benefit is beyond the OS, it goes to whole system management. But the average Joe won't care about most of these things because they don't ever go to BIOS.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    24. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in danger of forming an opini... Nope, it went away.

      ONE OF US ONE OF US

    25. Re:Slashdot by somersault · · Score: 1

      I ran Ubuntu on my MBP for a while. Since EFI isn't that widely used on Linux, it makes for a fun time if you need to configure anything..

      It just convinced me to buy a Dell for my next machine, since Dell were actually selling machines preloaded with Ubuntu, with good old BIOS, so I could be sure that the hardware was supported.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    26. Re:Slashdot by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      That's only short term thinking, if a large portion of people buy systems with windows preinstalled, and then wipe it to install something else sooner or later OEMs will catch on to this and start providing systems either blank or with whatever people are replacing windows with... At which point, MS stop making any money.

      Also MS want to sell you other products, which generally only run on their OS... If you've wiped it and installed something else you won't be sending any more money their way.

      They absolutely want to prevent users installing any other OS, security is and always has been of very little concern to MS. Ensuring continued sales is the overriding goal, and MS only bothered paying any attention whatsoever to security when their lack of it started driving users to other systems.

      Remember the crappier a system is, the more money they can make selling you extras to fix it, as well as expensive consultancy etc. A system which is reliable doesn't need fixing, nor upgrading and is therefore bad for business.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    27. Re:Slashdot by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      OSX uses GPT partition maps on x86 machines, they only had their own partition map on PPC systems. Current OSX running on x86 macs can still read disks which use the PPC partition map (as can linux), but can't boot from them.

      Linux has supported EFI for a long time, and Intel have been pushing EFI for a long time.... We would have had EFI many years ago, only MS never bothered to support it until very recently.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    28. Re:Slashdot by khraz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Some old P90s that I worked on had an Award or American Megatrends BIOS, which had a graphical (640x480x16) environment and supported a PS/2 mouse. I like UEFI, especially for the ability to boot external software directly (such as bios updaters or OS installers), but the bells and whistles could be done in BIOS, at least to a certain extent.

    29. Re:Slashdot by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      The only reason you should need to be in the BIOS setup is to configure basic, low-level system options. You don't *need* a mouse. BIOS isn't supposed to be user-friendly, all pretty pictures and clickable things. It's not a place you go to get work done - it's a place you go to make things work.

    30. Re:Slashdot by skids · · Score: 2

      Does it still throw the CPU into busy loops and leave the CPU too overheated to boot an OS that bothers to check the temp sensors after less than 1 minute of configuring? Yes, my BIOS does that.

    31. Re:Slashdot by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      And then watch the resurgence of the whitebox.

      That's assuming there are any vendors left to purchase the parts from to put it together.

      As it is now the whitebox market is pretty damn niche as compared to the computer market overall. The death of the homebuilt PC has been heralded for years while we all scoffed, but not only is it happening, it's being deliberately driven that direction not only by the companies that benefit from vendor lock-in but consumers themselves. PC Gaming is being deliberately killed off in lieu of DRM-laden consoles and the cash cow that is DLC; meanwhile, "the cloud" is absorbing everything else.

      Add in the new on-board DRM that prevents overclocking and such that Intel is working on (and I'm sure AMD will emulate eventually) and the overall drive towards portables in lieu of desktops by a large segment of the population and frankly it doesn't look good at all. Maybe I'm a pessimist, but I see too much ambivalence towards these trends by too large of a percentage of the population. People like you and I are the odd ones, and the people that just want to update their Facebook and play Angry Birds are the new norm. 10 years from now hardly anyone is even going to have a "real computer" anymore, they're going to have a terminal fetching data from somewhere else, whether that terminal takes the form of a laptop or tablet or even a desktop computer, the days of putting together a powerhouse computer yourself seems to be coming to a close.

    32. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new here.... bashing is always a slashdot thing...

      FTFY

    33. Re:Slashdot by samjam · · Score: 2

      I used a BIOS setup WITH mouse pointer support around before year 2000

    34. Re:Slashdot by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      It is superior to BIOS in almost all ways because it has more features and can boot much faster.

      Perhaps it 'can', but the real world my quad-core 3GHz i5 UEFI system takes twice as long to start booting Linux as my dual-core 1.6GHz Atom system with an old-fangled BIOS.

      And it's not disk spinup time because the i5 has an SSD whereas the Atom has a 'green' hard drive.

    35. Re:Slashdot by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 2

      Newer Dell BIOS allows you to use a mouse.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    36. Re:Slashdot by Shoe+Puppet · · Score: 1

      Add in the new on-board DRM that prevents overclocking and such that Intel is working on (and I'm sure AMD will emulate eventually)

      Why would they do that? Both AMD and Intel even have processors specifically targeted to overclockers (I think they're called Extreme Edition and Black Edition, respectively)

      --
      (+1, Disagree)
    37. Re:Slashdot by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Confirmed "Black Edition" for AMD. Not sure why I bought it, though. I'm too much of a wimp. :) I just jacked mine from 3.3GHz to 3.5GHz.

      Guess that's not too shabby multiplied by 6x tho.

    38. Re:Slashdot by residieu · · Score: 1

      Do you think that maybe, just possibly, there are real people that are submitting articles. And as real people, they might sometimes have differing opinions about things?

    39. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Older Compaqs in the mid 1990s had at first a partition on disk for BIOS setup that used a mouse. Then they went to actually building it in the firmware so one could access the BIOS without a working hard disk or floppy drive. I've also encountered AMD BIOS variants that had mouse support as well back then.

      Personally, I don't care for mouse support because BIOS is supposed to be utilitarian, but whatever floats someone's boat.

    40. Re:Slashdot by MachDelta · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and they're giant, overpriced ripoffs. Back in the day you could buy a mid-range processor, gamble on getting a good chip, strap a fan the size of your face to the sucker, and crank that multiplier into the stratosphere. Then intel wizened up because people were taking their midgrade offerings and turning them into steroid injected beasts that would utterly crush their own top-of-the-line offerings. Enter the land of the locked multiplier for no reason other than to push people towards the "XTREEEEEM POWAAAH" processors with a great margin. It's like if Chevy started building 350's with a fracture in the block so you couldn't get more than 450hp out of them unless you ponied up for their big crate motors. Car enthusiasts would scream murder, but over in PC-hobbiest land we just shrug and take it. Bah.
      I understand it from a business sense, but still... it frustrates me.

    41. Re:Slashdot by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      10 years from now hardly anyone is even going to have a "real computer" anymore, they're going to have a terminal fetching data from somewhere else, whether that terminal takes the form of a laptop or tablet or even a desktop computer, the days of putting together a powerhouse computer yourself seems to be coming to a close.

      Sorry, I don't buy it. There's a whole slew of giant Fry's Electronics retail stores out here in the West where they have aisles and aisles of PC components for people who build their own computers; each has an entire aisle just for motherboards from Gigabyte, MSI, Asus, etc., another aisle just for CPUs and memory, two aisles for cases, etc.

      Newegg.com and its competitors also sell tons of PC components like this online. Companies like Gigabyte and MSI make all their money selling only components, and they don't sell them to Dell.

      Just because iPads and iPhones are selling in huge numbers doesn't mean that everyone's suddenly stopped building their own computers. They're two different markets.

      I also don't see the game software companies giving up on the PC market; they're still selling PC games left and right. Consoles can't compete; they're always years behind the PCs in technology.

    42. Re:Slashdot by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Why would they do that?

      Well, so they can sell you a software upgrade later on, of course!

      Can't have people buying cheaper processors and overclocking them now, can we? Gotta close that loophole STAT!

    43. Re:Slashdot by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      From what I remember, Windows 64 bit (Vista or 7 I think - I don't think XP 64 bit supported it) needs to be installed with UEFI/GPT partitioning or BIOS/MBR partitioning and it defaults to the latter, but it can be changed.

      Windows 7 x64 appears to allow all combinations of firmware (BIOS or UEFI) and partitioning for boot drives with 2^32 sectors or fewer.

      Once you move to larger drives, you have to use GPT, and thus must also use UEFI.

    44. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I shed a tear for the poor souls who can't have their Angry Birds needs met. It's as if their lives have no meaning.

    45. Re:Slashdot by kheldan · · Score: 1

      ..as a condition of shipping the PC with Windows 8

      Let the sheep of the world continue to buy shitty pre-built PCs, and the rest of us will continue to build our own from components.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    46. Re:Slashdot by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 1

      OS X uses GPT.

    47. Re:Slashdot by afidel · · Score: 1

      Actually, I doubt this will happen for business class machines because businesses will make it a part of RFQ's that the machine be capable of running Windows 7, and since there is no signed bootloader for Windows 7 obviously the major OEM's will provide a way to disable the signed boot requirement. Either that of Windows 7 SP2 will have a signed boot loader and everyone will be expected to run that as the minimum level.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    48. Re:Slashdot by Govno · · Score: 1

      If only we could start a contest where Millions of iPad and iPad2 owners play angry birds while crossing busy intersections. Surviving player with the highest score (Angry brids score + number of feet walked) wins an iPad3.

      I would pay to watch it.

      It could be called Angry Frogger!

    49. Re:Slashdot by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Oh come on! Just look at NewEgg's or CompUSA's websites and see how many different motherboards and processors you can buy! Not to mention video cards, hard disks, etc. There are PLENTY of parts available to build your own PC. This isn't going to change. Asus, Gigabyte, Biostar, and all the other MB makers will end up putting UEFI on their boards (probably a minimal version on nand flash, and provide a full version on a CDrom that you can copy to your hard disk. As for "white box" PCs, there are still many out there to chose from, especially those that make custom Linux or Game machines. It may be harder to find OEM copies of Windows to install on your home built computer, but M$ hasn't stopped Win7 from being sold by the parts vendors to "OEM" buyers yet. And of course you can just grab a copy of Ubuntu (or other distro) off the web.

    50. Re:Slashdot by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Try to boot to a partition greater than 2TB on Bios.
      Try using a mouse in BIOS (Hint, if you're using a mouse, you are not in BIOS)

      Why would you want to do either of those? It's easy enough to set up a boot partition. And arrow keys work just fine TYVM.

      It is superior to BIOS in almost all ways because it has more features and can boot much faster.

      More features doesn't mean it's superior. In fact, the BIOS could do with far fewer features. Provide a boot loader and let the OS do all the hardware stuff with drivers.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    51. Re:Slashdot by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Well there were the chip pirates that re-labeled chips to higher speeds knowing that you could just set the multiplier and it would work. Locking the chips at least kept these crooks honest. What burns me about Intel was when they tried to lock the old Celeron chips so they would not work on multi-processor boards. There was a hack where you had to add a trace on the Celeron slot-I module to enable SMD mode. The PGA versions of the Celeron didn't need this surgery and Biostar came out with an SMD motherboard that would work with the Celeron chips. People were over clocking one version of the Celeron to 500mhz and running two of them on this board to get a "1 ghz" processor. Intel was OUTRAGED and made all sorts of threats (which they didn't carry out).

    52. Re:Slashdot by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      kingdom for modpoints

    53. Re:Slashdot by rvw14 · · Score: 1

      I remember using the pencil mod on the AMD Athlon. Good times.

    54. Re:Slashdot by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I envy you all in the west :(

      On the east coast, we have Tiger Direct and Newegg, no stores you can walk through, and this makes me a sad panda...

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    55. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weird. I remember very clearly messing with the BIOS using a mouse on a friend's P166, some 15 years ago. That's before Intel even started working on the Itanium, and years from UEFI.

      Hint: Mouse != USB mouse.

    56. Re:Slashdot by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Yeah, same here in the Midwest. Our only choice for hardware is the internet or Best Buy...and Best Buy can hardly be called a choice, unless you're looking for a ridiculously marked up Hard Drive.

      10 years ago there were five Mom and Pop places within a 15 minute drive of my house, not to mention a CompUSA (back when they sold computer components in their stores!!), Circuit City, Best Buy. Newegg is great and all, but I really miss the days of being able to go out and replace a stick of RAM or a burnt out CD/DVD burner in 15 minutes...

    57. Re:Slashdot by David+Greene · · Score: 1

      Micro Center serves some places in the Midwest.

      --

    58. Re:Slashdot by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      From a user perspective, being able to boot off my 3TB 4K sector HD, and start actually loading my OS in 2 seconds vs 42 seconds is a big plus. I don't care that not every code monkey straight out of college can't handle it.

    59. Re:Slashdot by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The mom-n-pop places were all driven out of business by Best Buy and internet sellers; they couldn't compete on price. Be honest, if you had a choice of buying that DVD burner for $20 from Newegg or $80 from your local mom-n-pop place, which would you choose? Mom and pop aren't being greedy with such high prices; they have to pay their rent and their employees, and they don't have a lot of sales to afford a razor-thin mark-up. A low-volume business trying to compete against a high-volume business selling the exact same thing is never a winning proposition. The only businesses like that that still survive make most of their money on service, and only sell parts as part of the service ("looks like your DVD burner has died. I got a new one right here that I can sell you for only $40 and install it for free on-the-spot" == $20 profit on part, plus the charges from the service call itself), but there's only so much of a market for PC service, as most people probably just buy a new PC if it's too old and is having a problem.

    60. Re:Slashdot by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      What I don't understand is how we're able to support not one, but two Fry's stores here in Phoenix. Sure, they make plenty of sense in places like the Bay Area or LA where there's a large population of tech-heads and other highly educated people, but Phoenix is probably one of the stupidest cities in the US.

    61. Re:Slashdot by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of aerospace in Phoenix, isn't there? Those employees are probably the ones supporting the Fry's.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    62. Re:Slashdot by immaterial · · Score: 1

      Don't forget that high-volume stores get a huge break on their wholesale costs as well, due to volume purchasing power. A friend of mine owned his own little very successful local camera store for decades, but the past ten years things just got worse and worse to the point where he had to shut down. Costco was literally selling identical camera equipment at retail prices that were 2/3 or sometimes even 1/2 his WHOLESALE costs. I imagine small electronics and computer stores have the same problem.

    63. Re:Slashdot by mikael · · Score: 1

      In the past, dodgy computer shops would buy up Intel/AMD chips, remove the sticky labels indicating the clockspeed, put on new labels claiming a higher clockspeed, and overclock the CPU's. Even if the CPU's did end up melting into the motherboard.

      Intel/AMD stopped this by adding serial numbers and processor descriptions into the CPU die itself.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    64. Re:Slashdot by mikael · · Score: 1

      Remember seeing that bios - the mouse was neeed to be able to adjust scrollbars and click options.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    65. Re:Slashdot by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of defense contractors, plus Orbital and Honeywell. There's also a couple of big Intel facilities. Still doesn't seem like enough to support the two Fry's, plus on top of that both the Fry's are in ghetto locations.

    66. Re:Slashdot by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Yeah that is all we need, more DRM bling bling overbloated BS. Thanks a lot. And why do we need it? Do we REALLY want to make BIOS more friendly? Hell I deal with users all day and even without fiddling with the BIOS those suckers can tear up a Sherman tank with a toothbrush I so DO NOT WANT some GUI that makes it easy for them to mess with shit as low level as the BIOS!

      Lets just hope that the companies that make BIOS like Award and Phoenix keep selling to the Chinese so we can still get good old fashioned BIOS. I have enough of a PITA dealing with proprietary laptop crap and even worse proprietary cell phone crap I sooooo do not want proprietary crap in my fricking boot sequence!

      The only nice thing about this crap is if the OEMs lock the shit out of it it should give more business to whitebox guys like me to rip out their horseshit for a good old unlocked motherboard. Can you imagine the stink if they would have made Vista the ONLY choice on all those machines in 07-08? And I have yet to have a single customer look at screencaps and say they want metro. Every single one has so far said variations on a theme "Why would I want a cell phone desktop?" so I have a feeling if they don't lock it down Win 8 will be going the way of Vista.

      If they lock it down, can we have MSFT back under antitrust, please?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    67. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...which will become more expensive as the demand decreases.

    68. Re:Slashdot by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I miss CompUSA, they had some great self branded hardware.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    69. Re:Slashdot by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      Yeah, same here in the Midwest. Our only choice for hardware is the internet or Best Buy...and Best Buy can hardly be called a choice, unless you're looking for a ridiculously marked up Hard Drive.

      10 years ago there were five Mom and Pop places within a 15 minute drive of my house, not to mention a CompUSA (back when they sold computer components in their stores!!), Circuit City, Best Buy. Newegg is great and all, but I really miss the days of being able to go out and replace a stick of RAM or a burnt out CD/DVD burner in 15 minutes...

      'Round here there's still a few mom and pop computer stores. Usually I find their prices better than big box stores, and on par with newegg (until you add shipping costs from new egg). The big guys usually only have better prices during sales. Of course the cost of a pre-built from a big box is usually cheaper, but these small shops are still in business, and seem to still do well. They also have much better service than Geek Squad, etc. Though I don't understand. People ask me where to take their broken computer. I list a number of shops and add on "anywhere but best buy. Do not bring it to best buy. They overcharge and and less knowledgable". Yet even though they asked my advice, they ignore it and go to best buy.

    70. Re:Slashdot by _133MHz · · Score: 1

      Ah, the AMI Color BIOS . I had a 486 motherboard with it and I remember a Pentium-era motherboard which had both a standard text-mode BIOS and the graphical one, user selectable.

      If you used the AMI Color BIOS with a pre-VGA adapter it would use text characters to draw the GUI elements and the pointer, much like old DOS programs.

      Thanks for the nostalgia trip, by the way.

    71. Re:Slashdot by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      That probability is exactly: 0. It's laughable FUD.

    72. Re:Slashdot by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      They make all the margins they need on cooling systems. That is why Houston has 3 Fry's. :)

    73. Re:Slashdot by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually there sadly was a reason why both Intel and AMD started locking down the regular consumer level chips (although AMD still can be cranked with an unlocker board) and that is because of douchebaggery by some of my fellow whitebox builders.

      I don't know how many times I ran into machines in the late 90s with both Intel and AMD chips where some customer would bring a PC to me and say "My expensive new PC is acting funny!" and I would find some asshole had OCed the shit out of it and sold a lower chip as a higher one. There was even some out there where the chips had traces cut and other traces soldered so that an AMD Geode would read as an AMD Athlon. Of course it didn't run worth a shit for more than a few weeks, just long enough for the douche to get their money, but it happened.

      So I support splitting the gamer chips from the consumer ones. Granny don't know shit about OCing and this helps to keep her from getting jacked by assholes making a slow chip into a fast one that will become unstable, while at the same time it lets the gamers have the highest quality chips that have binned at the highest speeds for them to go nuts with. Besides at least on the AMD side the difference between the BE and the regular is usually pretty negligible price wise. When I bought my Deneb quad it was a whole $40 if I wanted BE but since I don't OC (I actually underclock a little when not gaming to keep the chips nice and cool during long transcodes, as the difference in speed isn't much but the heat is) I saved the whole $40. hell last I checked you could get the highest Thuban 6 core for something like $189, so it isn't a big jump here.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    74. Re:Slashdot by MagusSlurpy · · Score: 1

      Maybe they're cellphone- and car audio-heavy locations. The Microcenter near my house is half console games now.

      --
      My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
    75. Re:Slashdot by visualight · · Score: 1

      Coreboot is a much better path than UEFI. And the code monkeys you refer to are apparently the ones who *wrote* UEFI. It is quite insane, and for no good reason.

      It's like someone wrote a BIOS with .net

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    76. Re:Slashdot by Grishnakh · · Score: 0

      Yes, they probably are in sales (not to mention home electronics, appliances, and Blu-Rays), but they still devote plenty of floor space to PC components, electronic components, etc. plus a giant amount of floor space for laptops, printers, even Apple stuff.

    77. Re:Slashdot by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 1

      And witness the vendor lock-in imposed on you from the largest manufacturer on the planet of EFI powered machines. Notice how you can't boot any other OS on a Mac. Oh, hang on...

    78. Re:Slashdot by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 1

      OpenFirmware - which is what PPC Macs used was a proprietary implementation of OpenBoot.
      The Extensible Firmware Interface is vaguely similar (ie, they're both a lot more powerful than a BIOS) but they don't really share many features other than that...

      Re: UEFI only allowing signed bootloaders, my guess (and the sane thing to do) is to have a trusted path and an untrusted path in the bootloader.

      If you boot from the trusted path with a signed bootloader, it will boot a signed OS and ensure a cryptographically safe boot process. This will then work with a signed bootloader and a signed OS and protect the OS from some kinds of rootkits.

      If you boot from unsigned code, then it won't boot a signed OS - this will mean that an unsigned bootloader with a rootkit, won't be able to boot a signed OS like Windows 8. If you boot unsigned code, you can run an unsigned OS, such as Linux.

    79. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had a rather rare specimen, a 486 with the WinBIOS and PCI slots. I might still have it buried under a pile of old hardware; wonder if it still works. I recall there were some errors in the manual regarding the jumpers for some of the features. Needed a LOT of time to work out the right combinations.

    80. Re:Slashdot by mgiuca · · Score: 1

      I think it should be Angry birds score × number of feet walked, since otherwise an experienced Angry Birds player could win without moving. This way, you need to be crossing the intersections or you won't get anything.

    81. Re:Slashdot by TD-Linux · · Score: 1

      This isn't going to happen. The initial boot HAS to happen off word-addressable memory. So it's not like you can brick your PC by losing that partition.

    82. Re:Slashdot by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      I shed a tear for the poor souls who can't have their Angry Birds needs met. It's as if their lives have no meaning.

      Oh yeah? What do you propose to fill potholes with Mr Smarty Pants? Morons are useful (and cheap).

    83. Re:Slashdot by couchslug · · Score: 1

      I'd rather they leave it on hard disk, the better to facilitate dissection.

      They'll HAVE to cater to users who want remote imaging.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    84. Re:Slashdot by JeffElkins · · Score: 1

      If only we could start a contest where Millions of iPad and iPad2 owners play angry birds while crossing busy intersections.
      Surviving player with the highest score (Angry brids score + number of feet walked) wins an iPad3.

      I would pay to watch it.

      It could be called Angry Frogger!

      That's funny :)

      --
      Why is all the good stuff already modded 5, when I have mod points?
    85. Re:Slashdot by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Well except that coreboot doesn't run on anything released in the past decade, perhaps.

    86. Re:Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer to use the turbo button

  2. Didn't Demystify Much by Anrego · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Article was a little too light on technical details for me. This article read like something you might find in an “intro to computers” textbook. Vague somewhat-technical description of what it does and a few somewhat unclearly described differences.

    Not necessarily a bad article, just wasn't what I was hoping for :(

    1. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by tapspace · · Score: 1

      It's like software. And an operating system. Kinda. And it has the Internet! And a GUI. It's gonna be totally sweet.

      But in seriousness, it's a pretty light little article.

    2. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Anrego · · Score: 1

      And it replaces the bios and indeed runs ontop of the bios! That part seemed especially confusing and vague.

    3. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by HexaByte · · Score: 1

      While light on some details, the article does indicate that "It sits on top of BIOS", which means you should be able to get into the BIOS to change things. It also sits either in NAND memory or a hard drive partition, (Compaq servers, anyone?) and so can be physically replaced to put Linux in as an OS instead of WinDoze8.

      Looks like all the paranoia is wasted again!

      --
      HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
    4. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      That's what Slashdot is, too.

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    5. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by slyrat · · Score: 2

      Article was a little too light on technical details for me. This article read like something you might find in an “intro to computers” textbook. Vague somewhat-technical description of what it does and a few somewhat unclearly described differences.

      Not necessarily a bad article, just wasn't what I was hoping for :(

      Well there is always wikipedia to the rescue: UEFI on Wiki

    6. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by tepples · · Score: 1

      the article does indicate that "It sits on top of BIOS", which means you should be able to get into the BIOS to change things.

      But will bootloader signing certificates be one of the things that the BIOS setup allows the user to change?

      It also sits either in NAND memory or a hard drive partition, (Compaq servers, anyone?) and so can be physically replaced to put Linux in as an OS instead of WinDoze8.

      Good luck convincing mainstream PC manufacturers to give up the key needed to sign your own bootloader, even if you have the "service tag" (Dell's term for a hardware serial number, as opposed to the Windows product key).

    7. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    8. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Smallpond · · Score: 2

      While light on some details, the article does indicate that "It sits on top of BIOS", which means you should be able to get into the BIOS to change things. It also sits either in NAND memory or a hard drive partition, (Compaq servers, anyone?) and so can be physically replaced to put Linux in as an OS instead of WinDoze8.

      Looks like all the paranoia is wasted again!

      The article is badly worded. It "sits on top of BIOS" on machines that HAVE a BIOS. New machines will just boot UEFI.
      If you remove UEFI you will have a brick.

      If you have a 64-bit UEFI, you will not be able to boot a 32-bit OS.

      If you have security enabled you will not be able to boot an unsigned OS.

      One goal of UEFI is so that the hardware vendors (Intel) will not have to publish detailed specs. You will only be able to access your hardware as they want.

      Looks like they sometimes are out to get the paranoids.

    9. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Yo dawg, we herd u like bioses...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    10. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Reziac · · Score: 1

      It looked to me from some of the comments (yes, I RTFA, and the FLinkedFromCommentA too) that at least part of UEFI can be on the HD itself.

      So, what happens if your HD, or its data channel, is defective?? Strikes me as an unrecoverable situation.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    11. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by m50d · · Score: 1

      One goal of UEFI is so that the hardware vendors (Intel) will not have to publish detailed specs. You will only be able to access your hardware as they want.

      You can already only access your hardware as they want. The difference is there'll be a single, publicly available spec, rather than random half-documented vendor-specific interfaces, where the only thing they actually tested was their equally shoddy windows driver. The OS signing is a real concern, but unified, standardized hardware interfaces are a major plus

      --
      I am trolling
    12. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But outside of Intel people have been doing similar things, OpenBoot for example. The problem with the PC world is that it's insular. Everything gets reinvented or remolded for the PC. Common ideas elsewhere are considered breakthroughs for a PC. A BIOS is very much a PC centric thing in itself, elsewhere you usually just have a minimal bootloader that lets the OS do most of the work. But PCs are forever locked into the compatibility prison, they can't do things sanely because it will break existing hardware or software.

    13. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It looked to me from some of the comments (yes, I RTFA, and the FLinkedFromCommentA too) that at least part of UEFI can be on the HD itself.

      So, what happens if your HD, or its data channel, is defective?? Strikes me as an unrecoverable situation.

      I know the article doesn't say this, but UEFI in the chip has a small part that looks for certain files on a hard drive, and if found uses those instead of the rest of the code in the chip. If it's not found, it uses the chip copy.

      This lets you overwrite parts of the chip code, and even expand to it. But if the 'enhanced' bios on disk can not be found, it reverts to the 'built-in' bios.

      It would be like running in safe mode. Whatever optimizations you made for your OS are gone, and whatever extra features you added for your OS to access are gone.
      But at this point, your OS is also gone, so that shouldn't be of too great a concern.

      Hope you kept a good backup.

    14. Re:Didn't Demystify Much by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      One goal of UEFI is so that the hardware vendors (Intel) will not have to publish detailed specs. You will only be able to access your hardware as they want.

      You can already only access your hardware as they want. The difference is there'll be a single, publicly available spec, rather than random half-documented vendor-specific interfaces, where the only thing they actually tested was their equally shoddy windows driver. The OS signing is a real concern, but unified, standardized hardware interfaces are a major plus

      I'm looking at the difference between the DVD drive in my computer, where I can currently read and write raw bits, and the DVD drive in my HTS - which interacts with code on the DVD to lock me out from skipping ads or the FBI warning. What are the chances that UEFI is going to give me all the capabilities that I currently have? You think the driver for Sony DVD drives will let you dump raw bits from Sony music?

  3. Hm? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's called U-boot. This is just a way to lock out open source.

    1. Re:Hm? by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      It's called U-boot. This is just an attempt to lock out open source.

      Fixed that for you. Just like Androids, sever vendors will remain unlocked, or give out the keys to owners. There will be hacking forums. And a lot of pissed off users when the next OS comes along, and won't run. It will be fun!

    2. Re:Hm? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      U Boot: What do you expect from a product named after Nazi submarines?

    3. Re:Hm? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What clueless clickwit modded this up? Das U-Boot is an open source bootloader, mostly aimed at embedded systems. If the parent wanted to highlight an open source alternative for UEFI, he should have mentioned Coreboot. If the parent wanted to complain about locking out open source, he should not have mentioned an open source bootloader in the first place.

    4. Re:Hm? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      No no, locked bootloaders are good for open source. It allows hardware vendors to use open source software to sell their hardware without commoditizing their hardware in the process.

      Who would you rather be? Linux, after 20 years still on a single-digit percentage of the addressable market? Or Android, riding locked bootloaders, carrier agreements and hacking obfuscations to over 50% of the smartphone market in three years? Carrier- and vendor-locked firmware was the best thing to ever happen to Android.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:Hm? by mlts · · Score: 1

      Then the OS checks if the version of UEFI was "jailbroken", sends up the BIOS serial number, then deactivates itself. Further attempts to activate will fail as that BIOS would be on the blacklist.

      Precedent is already there -- PSN and XBL both will blacklist a box from their networks at a second's notice.

    6. Re:Hm? by kubernet3s · · Score: 1

      So really, this only affects people trying to double boot? The only network I could be "blacklisted" from is whatever god awful appstore clone they'll give us with Windows 8, and I'm realreal fine with that.

    7. Re:Hm? by marnues · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that had Microsoft opened the source for Windows in 1988, they would have failed to secure the PC market? Android, just as Windows, was the first OS that vendors could easily install on low-end hardware without needing additional work. It was called Wintel for a long time because without the one, the other wouldn't have become so common. We have had ARM for a long while, but Google was the first to imitate Microsoft's simple OS that wasn't hardware specific. Both Intel and Microsoft could have repeated their original success, but they have long since forgotten the agility that shot them to success in the first place.

    8. Re:Hm? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      No no, they could have opened it and it might have been just as successful, as long as they couId lock up the PC distributotrs with their Windows distribution through licensing, just as Google is able to keep major vendors on OHA Android by keeping it ahead in features of AOSP Android and integrating it with Google services.

      Really, I could answer yes or no to your question and it wouldn't really have a bearing on my original point. For the purposes of hardware integrators Windows was open, they were allowed to put it on whatever they pleased, unlike Mac OS or AmigaOS. An open distribution strategy is distinct from an open source strategy.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    9. Re:Hm? by mlts · · Score: 1

      It can affect activation. It would be trivial to have in the EULA that only "genuine" or "non-tampered with" equipment be allowed to run the OS. So, on the activation check, the OS can refuse to activate on that motherboard/CPU combo, or even refuse to run completely.

      Of course, I'm crossing my fingers that UEFI secure mode will be like the TPM, an option that users explicitly turn on, and is all around beneficial, as opposed to jamming the DRM stack deep into hardware.

  4. For Once by jkflying · · Score: 0

    An unbiased, mature look at a piece of new technology.

    --
    Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
  5. May I ask... by jawtheshark · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What the point was of this article? There is no meat at all in there. I expected a complete deep technical overview of UEFI, not something you can summarize as "It's a little operating system providing services to the actual operating system".

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    1. Re:May I ask... by Anrego · · Score: 1

      My thought exactly.

      A good article for an intro to computers course, but I was hoping for some "how it actually works" details.

    2. Re:May I ask... by tgd · · Score: 1

      The point is to get the "zomg, Microsoft is blocking Linux with Windows 8!!!" shitstorm going again, because it got everyone in a tizzy a day or two ago, and tizzies generate clicks and clicks generate ad impressions.

    3. Re:May I ask... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's quite apparent you didn't even read the article.

    4. Re:May I ask... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have not yet worked with UEFI but have worked with EFI and I can say that it's not a little OS providing services to the actual operating system. Its a huge piece of code (thousands of megabytes) that does needs to be kept in memory when the OS is running. It also fragments memory as it spreads itself across the whole of memory.

    5. Re:May I ask... by demonbug · · Score: 1

      My thought exactly.

      A good article for an intro to computers course, but I was hoping for some "how it actually works" details.

      Not even good for an intro class, as it seems to be self-contradictory. It is the replacement for BIOS, except that it is also built on top of BIOS - so the BIOS is still there? From the article it sounds like a middleman, interfacing between the BIOS and the OS - which just makes me wonder what the point is. Totally useless article, as the author either doesn't really know what UEFI is or is just incapable of formulating a clear explanation of what it is and how it is different from BIOS.

    6. Re:May I ask... by kubernet3s · · Score: 1

      The original article and the slashdot one both seem to give UEFI pretty thorough dicksuckings. This one doesn't even seem to acknowledge the post a few days ago. And who cares if they're blocking Linux: what they're doing is making computers yet shittier. Given that I do most of my work on one of these things, I don't want to have to deal with some fat horrible "mini-OS" standing between me and the basic process of cleaning all the free trial versions of MediaFinderPro Virus Collator and PonyPicture.net, the interactive pony picture manipulation and rendering client.

    7. Re:May I ask... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Other way around. BIOS can boot into a UEFI environment. This (along with some device ID mimicry and device driver wizardry) is how one boots a generic PC into OSX.

    8. Re:May I ask... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's quite apparent you completely missed tgd's point.

  6. Stop allowing system access to BIOS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The return of boot-sector virii. This time in your BIOS. I can hear it, just over the horizon. They're coming.

    1. Re:Stop allowing system access to BIOS by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The plural is viruses. Also, the boot sector is on your disk. There have been attacks that hit the firmware/bios for a long time. Someone doesn't remember CIH/Chernobyl.

  7. UEFI = DRM in the firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Is that what we need, DRM in the firmware?

    1. Re:UEFI = DRM in the firmware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not what we as PC users need. It is what game companies want so they can bring Madden 2012 back to the PC with DRM coming from the hardware.

      Plus, shouldn't the public get used to locked down hardware on the desktop anyway?

    2. Re:UEFI = DRM in the firmware by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Seems to work so well for the iPhone, several Androids, and every other thing it has been tried on. Not really worried, but I will monitor my future purchases a little closer.

    3. Re:UEFI = DRM in the firmware by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      It is a simple matter of money. Take a look at how much money there is in online gaming, and how much money is being spent on trying to stop people from cheating or running unauthorized copies of the game. Now imagine if users did not actually control their computers -- suddenly, you could enforce the rules of the game for far less.

      You could substitute just about any class of software for "games" at this point -- a lot of money is being spent on license enforcement, and vendors would prefer if they could trust that the OS has not been hacked by its user. The "security" that they are referring to is not security for the end users, it is security for the various parties who are trying to stop those users from doing certain unapproved things.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:UEFI = DRM in the firmware by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 1

      You could substitute just about any class of software for "games" at this point -- a lot of money is being spent on license enforcement, and vendors would prefer if they could trust that the OS has not been hacked by its user. The "security" that they are referring to is not security for the end users, it is security for the various parties who are trying to stop those users from doing certain unapproved things.
      Oh, it's better than that, this is how you enforce software as a service, since the owner of the hardware can no longer control the OS, this is a rent seeker's dream. Also the end of general purpose computing.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
  8. Gimme a Break; I'm Only One Guy! by tapspace · · Score: 0

    ...because slashdot is only one person. I. AM. SLASHDOT!

    1. Re:Gimme a Break; I'm Only One Guy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NO! *I* AM SLASHDOT...

    2. Re:Gimme a Break; I'm Only One Guy! by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 1

      Would the real /. please stand up? Please stand up.

  9. I don't know... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is wrong with the BIOS anyway? Why does the boot process need to be all flashy? It seems like adding complexity there will just end up causing problems...

    Maybe I'm just a relic...a lot of people don't even know how to get into their BIOS anymore, let alone what the POST and such is afterwards.

    1. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BIOS is old and has a lot of legacy cruft and I agree should be replaced.

      But as usual, given the chance to replace something that's been around for a while, it looks like designers went overboard and have as you said, created a lot of areas for problems to crop up.

    2. Re:I don't know... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is wrong with the BIOS anyway?

      It allows you to boot Linux.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:I don't know... by John+Courtland · · Score: 1

      It's simply the 30-year-long second-system syndrome.

      --
      Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
    4. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to agree with this.

      BIOS offers me exactly what I need to accomplish a task. I have never been found wanting.

    5. Re:I don't know... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It allows you to boot Linux.

      The cynical, realistic part of me thinks this is the real answer.

    6. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They just wnat you to buy a super special edition of Norton antivirus to "protect" you from rootkits that infect the UEFI. Especially because UEFI allows for easy communication between it and the OS. Also, UEFI has network capabilities, and we will see this feature in boards, especially ones that boast you can update the firmware via the internet WITHOUT an OS.

      This has the potential for having motherboards be permanently infected with malware.

    7. Re:I don't know... by guruevi · · Score: 5, Informative

      BIOS has a LOT of limitations. >2TB hard drives, network boot, disk controllers, GPU's, IPMI, ... everything has to subvert the BIOS in some way which makes it mightily slow. My iMac boots with Lion in 7 seconds. My Linux machine takes 15 seconds just getting to Grub, my servers take up to 45 seconds to get to the boot loader.

      BIOS is ALWAYS hooked into 8086 mode (real mode) so at boot time you are limited by it's calls (such as 13h for disks) and that's hard and expensive to emulate on a non-x86 system (such as most Intel/AMD processors).

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    8. Re:I don't know... by neokushan · · Score: 2

      The main issue for me is that BIOS is just SLOW. For something that's stored in flash memory on the motherboard and is maybe a MB or two in size (if even that), it takes far too long to load up. Throw in RAID or AHCI and it doubles the boot time. BIOS is the main reason why your machine takes 30s longer to start up than it should.
      Now I'm not saying UEFI is perfect, it does seem to be a little over the top, but never the less if it allows me to have that instant-on computer that Intel has been promising us for the last decade or two, I'm all for it.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    9. Re:I don't know... by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Well, for local boot the BIOS could just have been updated to load any X number of sectors at any 64 bit offset into memory, solving both the chainloading problems and 2TB boot disk limit. Then just let the OS do its thing and detect all the rest.

      It gets a bit more complicated if you want to say load the configuration from the network, there's netboot but with more GUI, more options, maybe verify some digital signatures and whatnot. Then your network has to be working, you maybe need some GUI screens with mouse to configure it and all that before there is an "OS" to speak of. That goes for the rest of the BIOS options too, they're not necessary but nice.

      I still think most people won't know about the BIOS/UEFI. I haven't heard of any problems booting Linux from UEFI boards, can't just Linux ignore everything and start over? Just that if you do happen to have to go there, then it looks more like something made this century. The BIOS really is an old relic the way it looks.

      --
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    10. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with Coreboot anyway?

      Oh, right.

    11. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      BIOS has a LOT of limitations. >2TB hard drives, network boot, disk controllers, GPU's, IPMI, ... everything has to subvert the BIOS in some way which makes it mightily slow. My iMac boots with Lion in 7 seconds. My Linux machine takes 15 seconds just getting to Grub, my servers take up to 45 seconds to get to the boot loader.

      BIOS is ALWAYS hooked into 8086 mode (real mode) so at boot time you are limited by it's calls (such as 13h for disks) and that's hard and expensive to emulate on a non-x86 system (such as most Intel/AMD processors).

      Close BIOS limits the boot device =2TB, secondary devices has no limit what so ever

    12. Re:I don't know... by walshy007 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

      An interesting read if anyone cares for it.

      All that is being done by making the boot process more complex is letting people add more bugs to firmware, do not want.

    13. Re:I don't know... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      They could still just update BIOS. I suspect this is just a method to enforce vendor lock-in and DMCA/DRM bullshit.

      The BIOS really is an old relic the way it looks.

      Honestly, why the hell does it matter? Who cares how it looks? It gets the job done for the most part, which is what matters.

      Adding complexity to the boot process is just going to add potential for problems. Good for Geek Squad, bad for consumers.

    14. Re:I don't know... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " My iMac boots with Lion in 7 seconds. My Linux machine takes 15 seconds just getting to Grub, my servers take up to 45 seconds to get to the boot loader."

      Talk abut comparing apples to orange and Three's.

      I mean, really.

      --
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    15. Re:I don't know... by stackOVFL · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I get it. TFA seemed to imply that this layer would sit on top of the BIOS or at least could. Or will this UEFI be one size fits all MB's in existence. I always thought the boot time was due to initing the MB HW (like the AHCI / SCSI controllers and so forth). Surly those chips wont change and still need to be configured. I don't see how replacing one flash SW with another more complex SW can speed that up. What do I have wrong here?

    16. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can boot even 400TB drive using GRUB2 and GPT on PC/BIOS machine. Just dont use Microsoft crap.

    17. Re:I don't know... by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      The article states that UEFI can (and will) be built on top of BIOS, so won't it inherit all the bloat and limitations of BIOS anyway?

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    18. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      funny, with my msi k9n2 platinum sli board i can get to grub in 2 seconds and be fully logged into debian in less than 12 seconds (and i dont overclock)

    19. Re:I don't know... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      That 45-second delay on servers is for storage controller initialisation... and BIOS or UEFI, it's still got to be done.

    20. Re:I don't know... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      How is that comparing apples and oranges? My workstation is supposed to be much faster than my iMac but the BIOS eats up all the boot time. In a server it's because several peripheral BIOS are hooking into the main BIOS and the only way to change settings is manually in the BIOS but with EFI you could re-program your cards while booted and then do a quick reboot when necessary. It just goes to show the absurdity of the BIOS and how it can be done with EFI.

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    21. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I get it. TFA seemed to imply that this layer would sit on top of the BIOS or at least could. Or will this UEFI be one size fits all MB's in existence. I always thought the boot time was due to initing the MB HW (like the AHCI / SCSI controllers and so forth). Surly those chips wont change and still need to be configured. I don't see how replacing one flash SW with another more complex SW can speed that up. What do I have wrong here?

      A lot of it is because effectively most of that MB HW (modern stuff) wasn't around when BIOS was created. We're sort of doing a lot of end runs around BIOS and taking advantage of hack after hack after hack to get stuff like power saving, boot-on-network, booting from larger hard drives, etc running. Sure, we'll always have the hardware's own init processes to wait on, but we're already making BIOS jump through tons of hoops just to use stuff we've taken for granted for the past fifteen years or so.

      It's not a matter of making a more complex boot process. It's actually simplifying an outdated boot process whose cheap hacks and held-together-with-duct-tape-and-string nature is making it absurdly more complex than it needs to be.

    22. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It allows you to boot Linux.

      UEFI boots Linux just fine...

    23. Re:I don't know... by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

      EFI has a driver interface that an OS can use as a last resort. So you can boot to "safe mode" and the OS, instead of using its own drivers, can use the EFI drivers and get the system in a known working state.

      Or, Linux can use it to boot on wierd hardware and at least be able to minimally use the hardware. Not a bad thing if you have some funky RAID array that Linux doesn't support - being able to mount it and read data off it beats any alternative.

      You won't be able to game, but at least it's a last resort that can give you a working PC. Or a minimally available one you can remote into and fix.

      A "gets the hell out of the way" bootloader is possible, but if things break, it can be damn difficult to recover. Sure you can boot Knoppix, and modern Windows (Vista/7) come with utilities to try to help you get your files out, but they're limited and their UI stinks (nevermind if you need a RAID driver...) (You often know this when you "brick" a device and have to resort to JTAG to fix it. Having a built-in recovery routine in the bootloader can at least avoid a nasty trip for repair).

    24. Re:I don't know... by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is wrong with the BIOS anyway? Why does the boot process need to be all flashy? It seems like adding complexity there will just end up causing problems...

      Maybe I'm just a relic...a lot of people don't even know how to get into their BIOS anymore, let alone what the POST and such is afterwards.

      So... minutes of boot time spent at "press Fwhatever to enter foo" prompts is apealing to you?
      Or on the desktop side, figuring out how BIOS and one or more operating systems enumerate possible boot devices is good enough?

      For a Linux user, all the weird crap you've ever had to do in grub or lilo's configuration will get reduced to something like OS X's bless command, or an intelligent boot menu like refit at least.

      If you guys have no experience with other things like OpenBoot or don't understand BIOS limitations, you are not going to contribute much to this discussion. The article DOES describe what UEFI does and there are systems out there with better-than-BIOS firmware like Sparcs and EFI Macs already, and they have been available for yeeeeeeears. So don't poo on the article or the tech before educating yourselves.

    25. Re:I don't know... by afabbro · · Score: 1

      BIOS is ALWAYS hooked into 8086 mode (real mode) so at boot time you are limited by it's calls (such as 13h for disks) and that's hard and expensive to emulate on a non-x86 system (such as most Intel/AMD processors).

      I ask in ignorance...why are 8086 real mode calls "hard and expensive" to emulate on, say, current Intel processors?

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    26. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It allows you to boot Linux.

      The cynical, realistic part of me thinks this is the real answer.

      Indeed, considering that we have had a number of open source bios replacements such as Coreboot, and OpenBIOS for years. I've been interested in Coreboot since it was LinuxBIOS, and over the years the devs with some help from people like AMD have added support for a lot of motherboards.

      This is what should be replacing the current agglomeration of crap that has been tacked onto the BIOS not UEFI.

    27. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if Linux isn't secure wouldn't it be better if they secured it so that it could work with Windows 8? That must be a huge thing for a company when choosing which system to use, either to choose a fully secure Windows 8 system or an insecure (but free) Linux system. Wouldn't it be better if Linux was also secure?

    28. Re:I don't know... by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 1

      BIOS is ALWAYS hooked into 8086 mode (real mode) so at boot time you are limited by it's calls (such as 13h for disks) and that's hard and expensive to emulate on a non-x86 system (such as most Intel/AMD processors).

      Arent all Intel/AMD processors x86?

    29. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is a >2TB hard drive a good thing?

    30. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

      As someone who (used to) admin a lot of SPARC boxes, network OS installs are very nice, especially when you can grab the image via HTTP over a WAN (handy for smaller remote offices without a deployment server). Having a decent serial console interface (accessible via SSH) is also something I like having (more so than the usual PC GUI 'consoles' that redirect video).

      Hopefully UEFI systems will have the same capabilities as the Sun OpenBoot system has had for years. For PCs it may not be a big deal, but for servers it makes like easier (especially at 2 AM when you've been 'paged').

    31. Re:I don't know... by melstav · · Score: 1

      Having a built-in recovery routine in the bootloader can at least avoid a nasty trip for repair

      The recovery environment doesn't have to be built into the bootloader. You just have to be able to bootstrap it via the bootloader. This is, after all, how Android phones work. (At least, on my HTC EVO)

    32. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BIOS and bootstrapping is one area that would have benefited from SIMPLICITY. Instead they've made it massively more complex - why? The answer is trusted booting... DRM... and making sure you don't control the machine you paid for. UEFI is a screwjob for consumers.

    33. Re:I don't know... by nabsltd · · Score: 2

      The main issue for me is that BIOS is just SLOW.

      If you disable all the hardware checks and probing and don't have a bunch of add-in cards with ROMs, it takes very little time to hand off to the boot loader.

      For example, with all memory checks and the on-board SAS having RAID volumes, one of my servers takes about 4 minutes until the hand off. Disabling the hardware RAID and the boot ROM on the SAS controller (and running JBOD) saves about 30 seconds. Bypassing the memory check (24GB with NUMA is slow to check) and completely disabling the SAS controller, I can get the boot started in about 20 seconds from the on-board SATA controller, and most of that time is specific to the multi-processor server motherboard.

      Since no sane person wants to disable the hardware probing (which would be like going back to the days of setting jumpers on ISA cards, and having to tell your OS exactly where to find the card), that delay is always going to be there, and the more complex the system, the longer it will take. UEFI isn't going to help this much, because it's still got to discover new and removed hardware and allow for behavior like current add-in ROMs.

      As for actual hardware tests, only the memory check takes very long, and you can disable that in most BIOS setups.

    34. Re:I don't know... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Not anymore. The extended instruction set is more RISC than anything else. It's effectively an x86 emulator running on top of a RISC architecture.

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    35. Re:I don't know... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Expensive and hard as far as chip design goes. You need to use transistors, memory and code to do so and as soon as the system is booted in any non-DOS OS (even OS/2), it's usage is limited. You can skip the whole thing saving costs, power and real estate on the chip and in the firmware.

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    36. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a configuration problem with your linux machine then. My Debian workstation, that loads the standard LAMP stack, plus umpteen other services give me a KDM logon in 11 seconds from cold.

    37. Re:I don't know... by Tomato42 · · Score: 1

      Not for long

    38. Re:I don't know... by marnues · · Score: 1

      The intent being a smooth transition to systems without BIOS.

    39. Re:I don't know... by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Then "alongside" would have been a more suitable word compared to the article's "sit on top".

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    40. Re:I don't know... by m50d · · Score: 1

      Yeah, not being able to install an OS further up the hard disk is a good thing. Taking 45 seconds to reach the boot loader is a good thing. Nope, sorry. There are many many things wrong with EFI, but we're past the point where BIOS was still tolerable.

      --
      I am trolling
    41. Re:I don't know... by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      The bios has its share of issues, I never said it didn't. However EFI is a step in the wrong direction, it is a step towards a more complicated boot process. What you want is an even simpler one, as a bonus with a simpler boot process not surprisingly it tends to boot faster.

    42. Re:I don't know... by mpe · · Score: 1

      my servers take up to 45 seconds to get to the boot loader.

      If that's actually an issue then you most likely have considerably more serious problems with your servers :)

    43. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why should hardware be repeatedly checked, though. Hardware is rarely changed in a computer (at least relative to how often it is booted). Why not have a "hardware changed" switch that is triggered when a case is opened or a card is added or removed that can cause a full hardware scan to be run? Otherwise, assume that the hardware hasn't changed and boot away.

    44. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      loading the os and getting the hell out

      Well, hello there, sailor.

    45. Re:I don't know... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Not really, the several HBA's take forever to boot (press any key within x seconds to get to the BIOS). I could take out their BIOS loaders but then I can't boot from the disks connected to them.

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    46. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BIOS bloat?

      Not sure how you bloat bios

    47. Re:I don't know... by Twinbee · · Score: 1

      Kludgy would have probably been a better word.

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    48. Re:I don't know... by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

      Ehm, BIOS is not even close to "loading the os". It loads the boot sector which is the first 512 bytes of the hard drive and you have even less than that since you need space for the partition table as well. The boot sector is often far from large enough to hold the boot loader so it have to first load it and let it then load the operating system, you often need at least two or three levels of chain loading before you're actually at the operating system level.

      With EFI on the other hand you can tell "that file over there, load it" and be done with it.

    49. Re:I don't know... by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Not true. You can boot Linux on systems that don't have a BIOS.

      Originally the BIOS was the full OS and on top of it sat DOS. Over the decades the BIOS just got more and more bloated. It's the only thing that takes all the various incompatible and poorly designed PC hardware and makes it look like it all just works. PCs are a mess of de-facto standards and every one is a unique design unlike all others. The BIOS is necessary to make this insane design all work. If course, the OS _could_ do this but the primary PC operating systems were designed assuming the BIOS does all the hard stuff. The BIOS is complex enough that PC makers used to buy the BIOS from third parties even though the PC makers should be the ones who know the most about their product (don't know if they still do this).

      Even some modern BIOS will still use 16-bit real mode. Not because it's needed but because no one ever wants to break backwards compatibility. No one would ever design a system like this from scratch, it grew from accretion. You know those 10 year old projects you have at work that no one really understands but they keep maintaining it anyway because it's cheaper than starting over, but they can't drop it because of some eccentric customer who won't upgrade? Well the BIOS is like that only it's 30 years old and used by everyone with a PC.

      What the BIOS should do:
          - store basic manufacturing info
          - store system configuration necessary for booting
          - enumerate buses just enough to determine boot devices
          - provide some minimal UI or method for a user to choose alternate boot images or parameters
          - verify signature on initial OS boot image (the part not in BIOS today)
          - load initial boot image (from mass storage, network, etc)
          - get the hell out

      Basically, if the OS can do something then the BIOS has no business doing it.

    50. Re:I don't know... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You can do this w/o a BIOS. You just need some standards. A BIOS also doesn't have to be monolithic. Split it into pieces and make it more manageable.

      If you want to book from a RAID that your OS can't support it, then have a standard interface to talking to the RAID that looks like a hard drive. Or have a piece of ROM that understands how to talk to it (just not a part of a monolithic BIOS).

      Basically if it's too complex for your OS to figure out then logically it should be too complex for the BIOS too. "Boot Knoppix to fix it", why not just include a mini fix-it-up OS on ROM somewhere? Just don't make it part of a monolithic BIOS. Because right now a BIOS is a full blown OS already and that complexity leads to a lot of the problems it has.

    51. Re:I don't know... by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      I already know all of the above that you've mentioned. In the context I was using it 'load the os' meant load executable code, whatever that may be. Fact remains kernel devs would prefer something that simply points to where code can begin to be executed, as opposed to the EFI route of doing a whole host of functions that the kernel _should_ be doing, and in the process possibly have a bunch of unfixable bugs.

      EFI provides far too much functionality, it is too abstracted away from what the hardware does. The simpler it is, the less chance there is of it being bugged and having it 'just work' the way it was intended.

      If you need an example of another clusterfuck with good intentions, just have a look at acpi and how it turned out providing nice high-level functionality for power management (hint: we are still heavily fighting implementation bugs with it now from board to board).

    52. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS

      my microvax from 1990 has a fully featured boot loader which allows you to do math, netboot, configure serial terminals,
      has an integrated CPU hardware debugger (e.g. press the button to stop the os, then check /read/write memory values, then continue the OS)

      similar stuff from other vax, sun, sgi machines, etc. from earlier, etc.

      this is not hard to do - if the standard is adhered to and well engineered.

    53. Re:I don't know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So don't poo on the article or the tech before educating yourselves.

      Boot loaders are programs just like those on regular mass storage. Except they happen to be sitting on raw flash memory. That's it. There is nothing magic about them and trying to reinvent functionality in that environment is a complete waste of time. Sitting on raw flash just just makes them much harder to create and maintain and causes unnecessary problems for everybody.

      Boot loaders have one job and one job only: to start one, and only one, standard format mass storage device and to run a startup program from it that does the real work. Note that the mass storage device could be flash memory formatted with a standard file system. That allows the startup program (probably an OS kernel) to be developed and maintained by all the standard tools we have at our disposal.

      The BIOS should be replaced. Not by all singing, all dancing bloatware, but by an absolutely minimal program that does the above task as fast as possible.

    54. Re:I don't know... by gig · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but EFI systems can do a full boot in under 10 seconds, with no fucking around. EFI systems can boot off the network faster than you are booting off local disk.

    55. Re:I don't know... by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      In most implementations that I've been subjected to, it's obsessive about talking to a graphical console, and uses idiotic non-ASCII key sequences that need a local keyboard to enter. Some implementations by non-brain-dead engineers avoid the latter (eg. Sun's), but the former is a neverending thorn in my side.

    56. Re:I don't know... by gig · · Score: 1

      Now they are x64. x86 has been renamed x32.

    57. Re:I don't know... by gig · · Score: 1

      > All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy
      > to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

      Unless you want to load the OS from a >2TB volume over a network. Which is a feature of shipping Macs, which use EFI.

      > All that is being done by making the boot process more complex is letting people add more bugs to firmware, do not want.

      No, EFI makes the boot process simpler, not more complex.

      You fell into the trap of thinking that because EFI is bigger, it is more complex. No. There is a huge amount of complexity around BIOS because everything that interacts with it is 30 years newer than it is supposed to be. The BIOS has to be tricked at every step to work with systems that have exponentially more of everything than it expects them to have. That is extremely complicated.

      Further, support for modern computer hardware makes things simpler, not more complicated. If you are using a computer with Bluetooth keyboard and mouse/trackpad and you want to boot from a different volume, the fact that your mouse and keyboard continue to function when you go into the firmware to choose a new boot volume makes things simpler, not more complex. Another feature of shipping Macs.

    58. Re:I don't know... by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      1. It's written in assembly

      2. It's not extensible

      3. It's slow

      4.You need to write a seperate bios driver for the hardware

      5. Nobody really understands it

      6. Only boots to an MBR

      On the other hand Coreboot is

      1. Written in C (except for the first 15 instruction to get out of real mode)

      2. Is extensible

      3. Is fast

      4. Uses linux kernel drivers

      5. Shares a lot of code and interfaces with linux so a lot of people understand it.

      6. Boots anything conforming to the multiboot standard (grub, freeBSD, linux, and even BIOS and EFI implementation to support proprietary OS's)

      UEFI shares the first three advantages, but lacks the last three.

    59. Re:I don't know... by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Linux can hook into secure boot technological, it just isn't trying to do so by default.

    60. Re:I don't know... by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      Oh, and I forgot to add BIOS is single-threaded whereas Coreboot can initialize some of the hardware in parallel when there are multiple cores in the system.

    61. Re:I don't know... by wildstoo · · Score: 1

      Apart from the technical limitations, what seriously fucks me off about BIOS is how every manufacturer has a different standard for everything.

      Some use F2 to enter the Setup menu, others use Del, others use Esc, others use some random key. Then the actual Setup options are spread across a mind-boggling array of menus and sub-menus, with very little consistency. Menu items often have no description, even in the included documentation.

      Also, some BIOSes are just plain buggy: some don't correctly save boot order, some advertise F12 for network boot but it doesn't work, etc.

      Is EFI going to solve any of THESE problems?

      I doubt it.

  10. Hackintosh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    With any luck, it'll be close enough to Apple's EFI implementation that Hackintoshing will be a simpler process. Not that it is terribly difficult now, geniuses like nawcom and netkas have made amazing advances in simplifying the process. But hey, the closer I can get to a vanilla install, the better.

    1. Re:Hackintosh by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I'm in the reverse situation. I like some of Apple's hardware (The build quality on the mac pro is fantastic, and the specs very impressive) but can't stand their dumbed-down everything-must-be-shiny operating system. My mac runs windows or linux, depending what I want to do with it.

    2. Re:Hackintosh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yikes, the Mac Pro may be well-designed, but hardware-wise it's substantially lacking for the price. I've built a tower w/ more expansion capability, a blu-ray burner, 3.5TB of internal storage, eSATA, USB 3, and all the stuff you'd expect like FireWire, USB 2, bluetooth, dual gigabit NIC, etc. for about $1200, and it runs Lion flawlessly. That's less than HALF the cost of the entry-level Mac Pro, AND it uses a faster Quad-core processor than was currently available from Apple when I built it. Seriously, Hackintosh is the way to go if you take the time to spec your machine out for maximum compatibility.

      Inb4 "but you can't do software updates as soon as they come out" - yeah, and most professionals using Macs in a production environment shouldn't do this anyway, it's always best to let any bugs come to light first.

  11. How to pronounce UEFI by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 0

    loUw-lEvel Friggin lockout

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  12. Never run programs unknown to SmartScreen by tepples · · Score: 2

    From a screenshot in the ExtremeTech article: "Never run downloaded programs that are unknown to SmartScreen". So how does a software developer make a program "known to SmartScreen" for the first time other than by selling it on the Windows Store?

    From the same article:

    if you try to boot while an infected USB memory stick is plugged in, Windows 8 will warn you and refuse to load.

    So how do I tell Windows that a USB mass storage device containing an Ubuntu install image is not "an infected USB memory stick"?

    Microsoft wants you to hibernate Windows 8 rather than shut it down

    So will we finally have the ability to come out of hibernate without that one peripheral not responding?

    Reset restores Windows 8 to its base, just-like-new state. Refresh is similar, but it preserves all of your documents.

    So now "reformat and reinstall" is becoming institutionalized.

    The article links to an article about the Windows Store. It claims that "the process for getting an app certified and listed in the Windows Store will be as painless as possible." Does this include applications developed by high school students who aren't 18 yet? Or college students who don't want to spend $99 per year? It also mentions "content compliance checks", and if "content compliance checks" are anything like the ones that Microsoft uses for Xbox Live Indie Games, this could shut out entire genres of applications. It says "you won't be able to download a Metro app from Download.com", but wouldn't one just be able to load an app into Visual Studio Express and run it that way?

  13. UEFI is good. by sgt+scrub · · Score: 3, Informative

    Secure boot is bad. What is mysterious about that? If you want to understand more, related to booting Linux, read these. UEFI secure booting x86 EFI boot stub

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    1. Re:UEFI is good. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Secure boot is good. What is mysterious about that?

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    2. Re:UEFI is good. by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Hypothetical situation: Mom's computer gets infected with a rootkit. On the next reboot, the rootkit attempts to take over and load before key OS comments, so it can't be detected.

      What is your answer to making sure this situation can't happen?

      The OS is compromised, so you can't trust the OS. Next best thing is to trust something other than the OS. So now we require the BIOS to be the gate keeper. How does the BIOS determine if something is "trustable"?.... Sign it.

      All of this stuff is perfectly logical, unless you completely ignore the root-kit problem at hand. But that's willful ignorance.

    3. Re:UEFI is good. by Sloppy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Secure boot isn't necessarily a dumb idea and would be harmless, if done sensibly. The firmware just needs to present a UI where the owner can manage (add and delete) all the public keys used to check signatures for what the machine's owner authorizes it to run. If you buy a computer and then you are the arbiter of your computer does, then at worst that's an added capability that you don't elect to use, and at best it's useful.

      But yeah, I doubt any manufacturers are installing firmware that does it right. If any are, they need to speak up so that people will know their hardware is safe to buy.

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    4. Re:UEFI is good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is an easy, existing solution to this problem - enter your BIOS settings and lock the MBR/set a MBR password.

    5. Re:UEFI is good. by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      Only allow changes to the firmware (EFI) by someone with physical access to the machine. Access to writing to the BIOS from the OS is the current vector of a root kit.

      1) Jump pin 10 and 11
      2) Boot to EFI interface (EFI should be written to refuse to boot to a device when 10 and 11 pins are jumped)
      3) Set the origin of the EFI update (USB, CD, Disk...)
      4) Press Enter

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    6. Re:UEFI is good. by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. Do you believe hardware makers for phones, tablets, game boxes, "tivos", etc... will? Device hackers are people too you insensitive clod ;)

      --
      Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    7. Re:UEFI is good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember hearing this stuff about TPM. My motherboard has a TPM header, and, uh, I don't use it. No problems.

      Maybe this'll affect the likes of Dell, but companies that sell directly to builders aren't going to intentionally harm their product by doing this.

    8. Re:UEFI is good. by LateArthurDent · · Score: 1

      Hypothetical situation: Mom's computer gets infected with a rootkit. On the next reboot, the rootkit attempts to take over and load before key OS comments, so it can't be detected.

      What is your answer to making sure this situation can't happen?

      Keep the machine patched and educate the users. Keep users in non-admin accounts with limited privileges such that the only vectors of attack are vulnerabilities, not the user.

      When that doesn't work, full OS reinstall. Don't try to clean up the OS.

      The OS is compromised, so you can't trust the OS. Next best thing is to trust something other than the OS. So now we require the BIOS to be the gate keeper. How does the BIOS determine if something is "trustable"?.... Sign it.

      All of this stuff is perfectly logical, unless you completely ignore the root-kit problem at hand. But that's willful ignorance.

      You're ignoring the possibility of UEFI security vulnerabilities that would allow a virus infection at that level. UEFI is more complex than BIOS, which leads to more opportunities for vulnerabilities.

      I also generally dislike things meant to protect people from themselves. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that mom learns how to use a computer responsibly. She learned how to drive responsibly, we don't put things on cars that prevent people from going off road, assuming that's always a mistake. Sometimes you do want to go off-roading.

    9. Re:UEFI is good. by sjames · · Score: 1

      And that's the problem. Keys ARE bad if manufacturers don't turn them over to the buyer. Keys that cannot be somehow bypassed are also generally a bad idea. Imagine if locking yourself out of your car or house meant you'll just have to buy a new one!

    10. Re:UEFI is good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're ignoring the possibility of UEFI security vulnerabilities that would allow a virus infection at that level. UEFI is more complex than BIOS, which leads to more opportunities for vulnerabilities.

      Sort of in the same way SSL encrypted e-mail is more complex than plaintext, thus offering more opportunities for vulnerabilities.

  14. "Re-imagining" by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fuck everybody who uses that word. It belongs in the marketing buzzword incinerator with "thought-shower", "synergy", "pro-active", and anything "in the cloud".

    --
    Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    1. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think I love you...

    2. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irregardless, I guestimate that those words have their purposes. But that's a-whole-nother story.

    3. Re:"Re-imagining" by MadKeithV · · Score: 2

      Re-imagining means: "I imagine it will work this time", after it didn't work the first time you imagined it either.

    4. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "thought-shower" WTF??

      Fuck you! I have now experienced a new super-bullshit word, which is etched into my mind which will never be erased.

      I feel so dirty. Violated.

    5. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But re-imagine that phrase when taking a pro-active look outside the box. With a little synergy, you'll be planting thought-showers in the cloud!

      CAPTCHA: Failed

      Touche, /., touche.

    6. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you trying to instantiate a para-dime shift in the inter-web community?
         

    7. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot: "Web 2.0" and "Paradigm shift"

    8. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Thought-shower" sounds dirty.

    9. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just yesterday someone asked me if they should be backing their stuff up to the internet or 'the cloud'. sigh. This was a corporate executive, the kind of person who makes all the final decisions on IT.

    10. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Thought-shower' is a politically correct replacement for 'brainstorm', which was thought to be offensive to epileptics.

      From my days as a copy editor...

    11. Re:"Re-imagining" by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I see you are trying to shift paradigms. Would you like me to help you think of some action items? After all, a goal without action items is just a dream.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:"Re-imagining" by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      Fuck everybody who uses that word. It belongs in the marketing buzzword incinerator with "thought-shower", "synergy", "pro-active", and anything "in the cloud".

      This sounds like a disruptive idea.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    13. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I have a thought-shower about proactively re-imagining synergy in the cloud... does that mean I get some sex?

    14. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then we couldn't have thought-showers from the cloud!

    15. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "thought-shower" WTF??

      Fuck you! I have now experienced a new super-bullshit word, which is etched into my mind which will never be erased.

      I feel so dirty. Violated.

      I got this lovely mental image of someone pissing on a brain.

    16. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never heard 'thought-shower' before.
      Next time I have a meeting filled with buzzwords, I'll be sure to work that into a question.

    17. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck everybody who uses that word. It belongs in the marketing buzzword incinerator with "thought-shower", "synergy", "pro-active", and anything "in the cloud".

      That's right, f'in bastards. And anyone who promotes this "cloud" crap needs a big knuckle sandwich.

    18. Re:"Re-imagining" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you.. let's run that idea up the flagpole and see who salutes.

  15. My question isn't about big corps, but big crime by CodeShark · · Score: 2

    Yes, I recognize that MS can abuse UEFI. Given that my work machines are WinXXXXX I don't have a choice about that, and I would assume that at some point there will be mobos that aren't controlled by M$.

    My question is ten times simpler: If this thing is flashable memory, etc., doesn't it open the doors to way more cracking by folks I'd really rather avoid, that is, identity thieves et. al? How is going away from silicon going to affect this?

    --
    ...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
  16. Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implications by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    I read the articles attached to this Slashdot story, and my impression was that Microsoft could use UEFI secure booting to make it much harder for PC owners to install Linux alongside or in place of Windows. Red Hat develoer Matthew Garrett explains: "Microsoft requires that machines conforming to the Windows 8 logo program and running a client version of Windows 8 ship with secure boot enabled. [...] A system that ships with only OEM and Microsoft keys will not boot a generic copy of Linux."

  17. So how do you pronounce it? by spudnic · · Score: 2

    YOU-fee?

    YOU-fi?

    you-EF-ee?

    --
    load "linux",8,1
    1. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's pronounced "zork." I know, I know, but the E is silent.

    2. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      f YOU

    3. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I go with Yuffie personally.

    4. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Around here it's you-ee-ef-eye, often slurred together to sound more like yui-ef-eye

      I think one of the other teams calls it you-fee, so even internally we havn't decided.

    5. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      UEFI isn't as bad as a UFiA, but not by much.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    6. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "UEFI"

    7. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU-EE-EFF-EYE

    8. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you-ef-EYE. The E is silent.

    9. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      U-E-F-I

    10. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly like it's spelled.
      you eee eff eye

    11. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by GlobalEcho · · Score: 1

      YOU-fee?

      YOU-fi?

      you-EF-ee?

      I like "weffy".

    12. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by waddgodd · · Score: 1

      I'd presume the same way you pronounce UFIA, since they have similar functions

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you
    13. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine a Vietnamese hipster trying to pronounce "You're F'd, fool".

      As in:

      "You want to understand your computer? - UEFI!"
      "You want to change your operating system? - UEFI!"
      "You want to bypass the arbitrary draconian restrictions imposed by your computer vendor? - UEFI!"

    14. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UEFI = Universally Evil F&%$in Intel
      You don't pronounce it you suffer from it. Can someone explain to me why it's a good idea to make it easier for virus writers to embed their software below the OS layer where it can't be easily detected? Oh right, this way we're all safe from being allowed to use open source drivers and operating systems.

    15. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by rainhill · · Score: 1

      u-fi, as in wi-fi.

    16. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When in doubt, spell it out. You Eee Eff Eye.

    17. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yuffie!

      http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/yuffie-portrait.jpg

    18. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by cmr-denver · · Score: 1

      I think it's you-EFF-i (or you-EFF-eye) and since you already know who the I and the you (in this case, HW manufacturers and M$) are, I'm sure you can imagine what the F stands for...

    19. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Yuffie." Same as the FF7 character.

    20. Re:So how do you pronounce it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      U E F I - its not a word.

  18. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Wolfraider · · Score: 0

    What are the chances that the secure boot is a simple switch that we can change? Enable secure boot to support whatever keys are in the system or disable to support anything else? I would actually be surprised if UEFI didn't support this.

  19. Re:runs on top by TaoPhoenix · · Score: 4, Funny

    So it's the Ourobios?

    --
    My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
  20. Secure boot is bigger than Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My understanding of the documentation of secure boot allows controlling: operating system, firmware and drivers. Now let take a look at this you buy a Asus MB with secure boot activated and containing key for let say windows and Asus drivers / firmware only, good luck adding a gigabyte video card this this setup as your new Asus secure boot Uefi does not contain the gigabyte driver signature. Now let take for instance your new Dell have is video card blow up and you want to replace by an off the shelve one, if it not Dell you’re toast. My computer is 3 years old, do you think I will be able to have a Dell video for it ? Hell no, so it all comes down to new system.

    1. Re:Secure boot is bigger than Linux by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of my old HP tc4400 laptop. One day I decided that I needed to upgrade the network card to 11n (I wanted the 5GHz band, and more speed than a). So I ordered the new card, put it in, and... no boot. The BIOS would only show me a message saying that it had detected an unrecognised PCI device ID, and refused to even go into setup. No options to disable it. No, the tc4400 just will not accept anything in that mini-PCI slot other than the exact model of wireless card it's made to use. The only way around it is to hack a BIOS image and reflash. Why would HP put such a feature into their laptops? I can only imagine it's to prevent people fixing their own laptops, and thus encourage upgrades or the use of extended warranty programs.

      Well, I did find one way around... you could boot it with the slot empty, put it into sleep mode, remove the keyboard, install the card, wake it up and run hardware detection again. Then it works. But you have to do that every time you reboot, which is hardly practical.

    2. Re:Secure boot is bigger than Linux by LinuxIsGarbage · · Score: 1

      I suggest it may be Intel's Centrino marketing garbage. Consumers used to demand "Centrino processors", but Centrino wasn't even a processor. It was a Pentium-M (or Core /Core2) processor mated with an Intel chipset, and Intel Wireless card. That was the requirement for the platform. This helped lock out other chipset makers, and of course with an Intel Chipset, enabling Intel's crappy integrated was only a few pennies more for the OEM. Much cheaper than specing even a low end ATI or nVidia card. ***

      Where I'm going with this is I know some computers the "Centrino" logo would disappear off the boot screen if the wireless card was changed to a non-Intel. This could be part of that detection (though poorly implimented)

      ***Of course this has meant for the longest while getting a cheaper computer with an AMD processor meant an nVidia or ATI graphics adapter, of which the bargin basement integrated models outperform Intel's garbage. I think Intel's latest efforts may be better but they have a history of making absolute crap. i815 was a crappy integrated solution based on the crappy failed i740 discrete card. Tons of junk video adapters branded "EXTREME GRAPHICS" that couldn't run modern games of the era, i910 chipset which Intel convinced Microsoft to allow in the "Vista Capable" branding fiasco even though the card couldn't run WDDM drivers and thus Aero. It involved lawsuits including one from HP because they invested in new platforms that were actually capable while other OEMs could sell from must have been warehouses of stockpiled 910s. i950 represents the absolute bare minimum adapter that can run Aero. You can not buy a GPU card that runs WDDM, all of ATI and nVidias low end WDDM models are better. Intel continued to sell this for years in netbooks (N270 and N280 processors), even though the power consumption was magnitues higher than the CPU. GMA500 running on Atom Z-series was decent spec hardware (based on PowerVR) for embedded market, but the driver support was absolutely terrible for both Linux and Windows. Some of the hardware accelerated decoding, etc didn't work right. GMA3000 was also terrible as it's based on the crappy 950 line. Starting with the X3000 they've slowly been making progress.

  21. UEFI by munky99999 · · Score: 2

    The only reason UEFI is overdue is not because they are slow in development. It's simply the fact that UEFI isn't an open standard. If UEFI was made an open standard every new computer in a month would all have UEFI.

    1. Re:UEFI by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      The only reason UEFI is overdue is not because they are slow in development. It's simply the fact that UEFI isn't an open standard. If UEFI was made an open standard every new computer in a month would all have UEFI.

      Yep. And each implementation would be different.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:UEFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has read over a thousand pages of UEFI documentation, which I downloaded along with the dev kit from the UEFI website, I can assure you that UEFI is indeed an open standard.

      http://www.uefi.org/specs/

      The reasons for slow adoption are mostly related to hardware vendors: most components require some initialization in the BIOS, and some require even more elaborate processes (like PXE booting or RAID config), and those component manufacturers have to rewrite their initialization drivers and BIOS utilities to fit in the UEFI framework. The advantage is that once you write those drivers they can be integrated into a BIOS without the integrator knowing any proprietary information about your hardware component. This is why Intel--a huge chipset maker--is pushing UEFI: to protect their proprietary hardware info.

    3. Re:UEFI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, EFI failed because it wasn't an open standard. UEFI will fail technically, because of design by committee, but it will be a marketplace success because Microsoft will force it so.

    4. Re:UEFI by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      The only reason UEFI is overdue is not because they are slow in development. It's simply the fact that UEFI isn't an open standard. If UEFI was made an open standard every new computer in a month would all have UEFI.

      Interestingly, many manufacturers are already using UEFI for quite a while. I believe most AMD64 based systems use it, even though the interface is still that of the legacy BIOS's as far as the user is concerned.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    5. Re:UEFI by munky99999 · · Score: 1

      The majority of mobo vendors have a line of mobos with uefi. It proves that they can do it and have the experience but the fact its so closed the neckbeards wont get behind it and they dont sell.

    6. Re:UEFI by TemporalBeing · · Score: 1

      The majority of mobo vendors have a line of mobos with uefi. It proves that they can do it and have the experience but the fact its so closed the neckbeards wont get behind it and they dont sell.

      Interesting as AMD64 and its cousins EMT64 and INTEL64 are very popular at the moment - pretty much all new processors - and they use EFI/UEFI. Most programmers may still only use the legacy BIOS interfaces, but the fact is most mobos are probably shipping with EFI/UEFI already.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    7. Re:UEFI by inglorion_on_the_net · · Score: 2

      The only reason UEFI is overdue is not because they are slow in development. It's simply the fact that UEFI isn't an open standard. If UEFI was made an open standard every new computer in a month would all have UEFI.

      So, how come every new computer doesn't have Open Firmware?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  22. There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by tepples · · Score: 2

    The main issue for me is that BIOS is just SLOW.

    There are limits to how fast any BIOS or BIOS replacement can proceed to reading and executing the bootloader. How long does it take to write to every page of RAM and read back from it? How long does it take for a hard drive to spin up?

    if it allows me to have that instant-on computer that Intel has been promising us for the last decade or two

    The only instant-on computers are computers with the operating system in solid-state memory. This can be an SSD. Or it can be RAM, which means the computer has been put to sleep and the hard drive spins up while the user is entering his password.

    1. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Soooo....you're saying that UEFI isn't any faster than BIOS?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    2. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, there are limits. But those limits are measured in microseconds.

      The only real, unavoidable boot delay is hardware initialization time. That is, it can take all of two seconds for the PCI bus to settle its clocks and voltages. After that, hardware detection can be performed (let's be generous and say 0.1s per endpoint) and a boot menu can be presented.

      My current system (AMD Phenom something) takes 25 seconds from power-on to boot menu, and then another 6 seconds to desktop. Frankly, anything above 10 seconds for the complete boot is outrageous.

    3. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by tepples · · Score: 1

      The only real, unavoidable boot delay is hardware initialization time. [...] two seconds [...] After that, hardware detection can be performed (let's be generous and say 0.1s per endpoint) and a boot menu can be presented.

      But where would the boot menu software store the list of operating systems that can be booted? If on a partition table, it would still have to wait for the HDD to spin up its platters in order to read that list.

    4. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by TemporalBeing · · Score: 2

      Sure, there are limits. But those limits are measured in microseconds.

      The only real, unavoidable boot delay is hardware initialization time. That is, it can take all of two seconds for the PCI bus to settle its clocks and voltages. After that, hardware detection can be performed (let's be generous and say 0.1s per endpoint) and a boot menu can be presented.

      My current system (AMD Phenom something) takes 25 seconds from power-on to boot menu, and then another 6 seconds to desktop. Frankly, anything above 10 seconds for the complete boot is outrageous.

      Hard drives may take far more than 2 seconds to settle in. There are reasons why BIOS's and Linux, and others have options for 30 second delays on hard drive initializations. And those delays are very common when you start adding in SCSI and RAID controllers.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    5. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Informative

      Other unavoidable delays:
      - Memory test. Well, you could avoid it, but you shouldn't.
      - Hard drive spin-up. You can detect the drives before this, but you can't read the partition table.
      - USB device detection. You need this for keyboards and bootable USB devices. And with the increasing use of tablet form factors, possibly in future for touchscreens.
      - Storage peripherals. A lot of storage controllers, espicially those of a RAIDy or networky nature (hardware-supported iSCSI, fibre channel) will need their own time to ready themselves and check connectivity and device integrity.
      Add all those together, and you're up to about what it takes for the BIOS today to run POST and hand over to the bootloader.

    6. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on my experience, UEFI and BIOS does not really affect boot time as loading those binaries are fractions of seconds on modern computers. The amount of hardware checks and the amount of ram are the real control of how long it takes to completely start a computer. As more and more of that is cut out of the boot process and it just gets to "load code located here and execute it" the faster the start will be. I think that cutting coincides with the rise of UEFI but is hardly caused by it.

    7. Re:There are limits to how fast an HDD spins up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      - all memory chips since sdram have identifiers. Determining how much memory is available can be done simply by reading that data. You don't really think that you can test multiple GB's of memory in mere seconds?
      - sure. But the spin-up starts as soon as the power switches on, not after the PCI bus has been initialized. And the system I was talking about boots from ssd...
      - this system has a ps2 keyboard, usb legacy support disabled in BIOS, and is configured to boot from internal hdd. All other boot devices have been disabled
      - see above. The bios has no business probing storage devices other than the first hdd.

      My comment was not in general. I fully understand that fancy systems require fancy configuration/detection phases (pxe boot, raid initialization, lun probing). But those do not apply to my system.

  23. Sever, several, or server? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Just like Androids, sever vendors will remain unlocked, or give out the keys to owners.

    By "sever" did you mean "cut off"? I don't think you did. So you meant either "several", which is OK, or "server", which excludes people who want to buy laptops. Which?

    1. Re:Sever, several, or server? by brusk · · Score: 2

      I'm sure the parent meant "severe vendors."

      --
      .sig withheld by request
    2. Re:Sever, several, or server? by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      I meant "several." Damn auto-correct...

  24. Sounds more canadian to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    BLAME CANADA!

  25. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What are the chances that the secure boot is a simple switch that we can change?

    Slim. Otherwise, trojan horse programs that claim to "make Windows faster" would ask the user to turn off secure boot and restart so that they can "do their job" (actually install malware).

  26. Re:runs on top by SgtXaos · · Score: 1

    So it's the Ourobios?

    Wishing I had mod points for you.....

    --
    -- Don't call me "Sir," I increase entropy for a living!
  27. Online... Really? by Airlight · · Score: 1

    "you can surf the internet from the UEFI interface" Even though it might be highly useful to network this way does anyone see that this could be a major downfall? Aren’t they just taking the most important part of the computer and opening it up to everyone?

    1. Re:Online... Really? by RobbieThe1st · · Score: 1

      Yes!

  28. Some should make a softcore porn game for metro by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Some should make a soft core porn game for metro and make it very clear that it is a adult game and if it gets banned sue under 1ST amendment rights and antitrust laws.

    1. Re:Some should make a softcore porn game for metro by brusk · · Score: 1

      Some should make a soft core porn game for metro and make it very clear that it is a adult game and if it gets banned sue under 1ST amendment rights and antitrust laws.

      Antitrust maybe, but the First Amendment only protects you from government restrictions on speech, not from private individuals or corporations.

      --
      .sig withheld by request
  29. UFIA by Esion+Modnar · · Score: 1

    Read UEFI as UFIA. On further review, yep, that's about right.

    --

    They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
  30. Coreboot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Needs a marketing department.

    1. Re:Coreboot by inglorion_on_the_net · · Score: 1

      You know, the fact that so many companies really seem to be ignoring open source projects like Linux and Coreboot really makes me wonder.

      Sure, we support Windows. Yeah, Mac OS X, too. Linux? Never heard of.

      UEFI? Got that. Coreboot? Open Firmware? *crickets*

      Sometimes, it's almost as if companies pretend that the open technologies do not exist. What gives? Especially given that many of them actually use open source software (often Linux) themselves.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  31. UEFI In The Data Center Not Ready For Prime Time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've been dealing with UEFI-based servers for the past couple of years - IBM System x specifically - and while I see the potential for UEFI, it's still got a lot of teething pains in the Enterprise space as far as I am concerned. IBM was the first to basically put their entire x86 product line on UEFI-only hardware.

    However, I have actually encountered machine configurations that BIOS was unable to deal with (add-in PCIe cards utilizing all of the ROM memory space and bringing the machine to a halt, amount of RAM beyond what BIOS can handle natively, etc...) so I can see the requirement for a BIOS replacement.

    In its current incarnation in the servers I deal with, the architecture is essentially booting two full-blown microprocessors running code *BEFORE* the machine will even attempt to POST. The service processors in the current IBM machines (IMM - Integrated Management Module) are the first thing to fire up when power is applied to the server - since IMMs are small microprocessors in their own right (can't remember the make, but I remember hearing 100MHz speeds) loading what I believe is a micro-Linux kernel it takes time for these things to fire up. This process can take up to two (sometimes more) minutes before the power button stops blinking rapidly and goes to a normal "power off" blink. At this point you can turn the server on, which is when it will fire up the UEFI microprocessor and begin to load all of that code into the system. UEFI goes and "talks" to all of the internal hardware, loads profiles for devices, etc... during this phase. That can take up to another four minutes or so (it has gotten faster over the last two years) at which point the actual POST screen will display and you can either enter SETUP or allow the server to boot - note that add-in cards will have to load their own ROM as normal (if in Legacy Mode, which most of our server are due to OS limitations). Note that the more cards you put in a machine and more boot options you leave enabled, the longer this pre-POST initialization takes. I've seen reboot cycle times of over ten minutes in some instances, whereas the BIOS-based systems would complete that cycle in under two minutes.

    So here's a brief summary of the current state-of-the-art in server UEFI:
    PROS:
    * Allows configuration of peripheral devices from the SETUP screen.
    * Allows up to 1TB (much smaller in practive) of Option ROM space for add-in cards.
    * Allows for huge amounts of memory, and very large disk sizes.
    * In theory, allows for additional software to execute before the primary OS kicks in. Not really utilized in these machines.

    CONS:
    * Horribly slow boot cycles. Length of boot cycle dependent on amount of hardware in server. Had an IBM ATS Engineer tell me they had a machine in the lab that they plugged so much stuff into that it took 23 hours to POST.
    * Corrupt firmware or firmware updates is the kiss of death for many of these machines. While there are backup firmware spaces and the appropriate jumpers to recover, this does not always work as intended. We've had quite a few brand-new systems that had to have complete system planar replacements because the code wasn't executing right.
    * As these are actual mini-OSes running there are all kinds of strange quirks and odd behavior from the servers. Lots of troubleshooting involves resetting the service processors and praying they reboot properly in order to just get the server to POST normally.
    * Speaking of quirks, there are lots of situations where hardware failures are either false-positive failures or not indicated as an issue when they actually have faults. Troubleshooting on these machines becomes guesswork based on intuition rather than having a solid grip on what component is doing what.
    * Example: As the UEFI handles all of the components on the server, we have run into issues where bad code for the UEFI causes the Operating Systems to malfunction in strange ways, only to find the OS was reacting to thousands of repeated error messages being

  32. so there is no diffrence then bewteen by goombah99 · · Score: 1

    UFIA and UEFI. The latter means Un-Expected Finger Insertion

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  33. lot's of hardware raid cards have some kind of tex by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    lot's of hardware raid cards have some kind of text mode GUI or a GUI that looks like the old MS-DOS Editor.

    Now it can be a big plus to have gui with mouse to config a raid card with out having to boot a full os.

  34. Re:runs on top by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

    BIOS, all the way down.

  35. Why do we need that by devent · · Score: 2

    "UEFI, being a pseudo-operating system, can access all of the hardware on the computer — you can surf the internet from the UEFI interface, or backup your hard drives — and it even has a full, mouse-driven GUI"

    Why do we need that? Why we can't have a "BIOS" that just boots the bootloader or the system itself and nothing else. Maybe an option from where it should boot (from harddisk, CDROM, network, etc). Just a thing, that don't have the limitations of the old BIOS, but with the sole purpose to boot the system/bootloader as fast as possible and then just go out of the way.

    "The fact that all of this boot data is stored on NAND flash or on a hard drive means that there’s a lot more space for things like language localization, boot-time diagnostics (begone meaningless POST beeps!), utilities (backup, restore, malware scanners), and so on."

    If the graphic card or the motherboard is broken, all the computer can do is to beep, with UEFI or without. If I need diagnostics and utilities I just use my Linux live-CD or live-USB-stick (like Knoppix or SystemRescueCD). They are easy to use and much more sophisticated.

    UEFI sounds like the shiny new GUI interface that nobody will use, but it was developed because the old boring program was too old fashion. Like Nero, with was 50MB and then later became a 1GB full blown suite.

    --
    http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    1. Re:Why do we need that by devent · · Score: 2

      "While BIOS is fundamentally a solid piece of firmware, UEFI is a programmable software interface that sits on top a computer’s hardware and firmware (and indeed UEFI can and does sit on top of BIOS). "

      The f*ck? I thought that thing is to replace the BIOS. Why they didn't just used a Linux distribution and skipped years of development time? So why do I need this UEFI again?

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    2. Re:Why do we need that by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      So why do I need this UEFI again?

      So Microsoft can lock down your computer so it only runs code signed by Microsoft.

    3. Re:Why do we need that by gig · · Score: 1

      All of these arguments are empty. Nobody gives a shit about 30 year old computing. People want fast boots, instant sleep/wake, network booting, they want no viruses, they want solid state everything, they want reliability like an iPad. Every year for the past few years, the number of BIOS PC's as a percentage of the overall market goes down. It's going to keep going down until none are left. End of story.

    4. Re:Why do we need that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "While BIOS is fundamentally a solid piece of firmware, UEFI is a programmable software interface that sits on top a computer’s hardware and firmware (and indeed UEFI can and does sit on top of BIOS). "

      The f*ck? I thought that thing is to replace the BIOS. Why they didn't just used a Linux distribution and skipped years of development time? So why do I need this UEFI again?

      Haven't read TFA, looked dumb. If it says that then it is full of shit.

      EFI encompasses all the functionality of the old BIOS and MAY provide an emulated BIOS on top of EFI (not the other way around), this is how Macbooks can boot older Windows versions (The EFI loader loads a fake BIOS then the fake BIOS boots Windows which talks to EFI through the BIOS emulation). If the BIOS still existed as the main control for the system then the entire exercise is pointless.

      As an aside, I agree that the GUI boot interface is a pointless shiny, unfortunately we all know what people are like, you give them a long list of technical features and improvements and they single out only the ones that are readily visible (look at the pretty pictures! Aren't they pretty? And you can click instead of typing! Nobody types in text only displays anymore, clicking and touching is too much cooler!). EFI does solve some very important technical problems, it isn't ideal (It could have just aimed to replace the BIOS functionality with a cleaner implementation and consistent programming interface but they just had to go further and add "apps" support...) but it does make things more 'modern', easier to handle malfunctions and hardware faults; cleaning up the 30 years of accumulated glitchy legacy shit that doesn't work properly if you actually look closely (for example, most BIOS ACPI implementations are broken on Linux, they were only written for Windows and don't comply with the spec) is a worthwhile goal.

    5. Re:Why do we need that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "UEFI, being a pseudo-operating system, can access all of the hardware on the computer — you can surf the internet from the UEFI interface, or backup your hard drives — and it even has a full, mouse-driven GUI"

      Why do we need that? Why we can't have a "BIOS" that just boots the bootloader or the system itself and nothing else. Maybe an option from where it should boot (from harddisk, CDROM, network, etc). Just a thing, that don't have the limitations of the old BIOS, but with the sole purpose to boot the system/bootloader as fast as possible and then just go out of the way.

      What is Coreboot?

      Really, this issue has been tackled, coreboot. Yes, they need much more resources and much more development time, not to mention help from hardware vendors (AMD is helping). But coreboot just does that. Boot up the bootloader asap and get out of your way.

  36. UEFI benefits to justify the costs? by optimism · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...BIOS’s antiquated limitations were hampering systems...

    What exactly are these limitations, in real-world terms? My systems all seem to boot & run fast right now...

    If the BIOS has limitations, why not just flash an updated BIOS? All of my machines have had at least one BIOS update since manufacture. No problem.

    As for the mini-OS-before-boot concept...I already have a bunch of Linux "Live CDs" that I use to partition drives, image & restore partitions, scan for viruses, etc without having to boot Windows. Why would I want to put a "pre-boot" OS on my hard drive, where it can be hacked and infected?

    Someone please enlighten me if UEFI has any real-world benefits to outweigh its costs.

  37. Re:UEFI In The Data Center Not Ready For Prime Tim by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, UEFI boot time is insane. Even on my home server which doesn't have any fancy monitoring hardware the UEFI boot takes about twice as long as booting Linux once it's finished.

  38. meaningless POST beeps ?? by theunixbomber · · Score: 1

    Its been a while since I've needed to diagnose a problem with those beeps, but last time I did I'm pretty sure that each and every one of them had a very specific meaning.

    1. Re:meaningless POST beeps ?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is exactly what I thought. Additionally, getting some sort of feedback, especially when it is basically burned into your mind that computers do it, is always a good thing. Does a single beep really affect you that much when you hear it. How about when you don't? Or worse, you hear a pattern of beeps. Everybody, even grandma instantly knows something is wrong because something is different.

    2. Re:meaningless POST beeps ?? by AwesomeMcgee · · Score: 1

      Haha I didn't even catch this, but you're absolutely right. I too recall looking at a diagnostics table in a motherboard manual telling me what the beeps meant when I screwed something up..

    3. Re:meaningless POST beeps ?? by flonker · · Score: 1

      Beep codes vary depending on the BIOS manufacturer. See http://support.microsoft.com/kb/261186 for an extreme example.

  39. UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by billcopc · · Score: 2

    Okay, I'm going to be a dick and say that UEFI is a load of crap. It has its own cute little platform-independent bytecode, which I suppose would come in real handy if you're in the business of selling motherboards that support more than one CPU architecture... wait, what ? And then manufacturers love to store a bunch of extensions on the hard drive, like in the Asus screenshot - but let's not call it an operating system okay ? Hell, Gigabyte even ships a few crappy games as EFI extensions on the motherboard CD.

    UEFI is an overdesigned solution to a non-problem. Intel has basically given everyone carte-blanche to bloat up the pre-boot experience. We already had gimmicky mouse-driven BIOSes back in the day, I remember one as far back as the 286, where AMI had replicated a Windows 2.0 style GUI. Pointless, slow, but hey it's shiny right ? :P

    What the BIOS needed was an update from its 35 year old roots - a little less 16-bit legacy cruft, a little more forward compatibility for the 64-bit era. What we got instead was a reinvention of the wheel that doesn't actually solve much. It simply replaces one simple interface with another. Instead of VESA VBE, we now use GOP, which provides (dun dun dun!) a linear frame buffer. Instead of calling interrupt 13h for disk access, we now call a C++ object. Nothing has really changed, except for the bloat.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
    1. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then manufacturers love to store a bunch of extensions on the hard drive, like in the Asus screenshot - but let's not call it an operating system okay ? Hell, Gigabyte even ships a few crappy games as EFI extensions on the motherboard CD.

      Asus does not. That screenshot is from Asus's standard minimalist UEFI menu. It looked exactly the same on my Asus Gene-z before I attached the SSD. UEFI firmware is stored on a 64MB flash ROM chip.

    2. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by KC1P · · Score: 1

      >UEFI is an overdesigned solution to a non-problem.

      Well it does solve the problem of 30 years of backwards compatibility. Thank god that's over! I really *hate* the fact that I can pull out any floppy, CD, or USB drive from when I was 1/3 my current age and expect it to boot up beautifully on my latest PC. I mean it's not as if backwards compatibility is the only reason x86 stuff rules the Earth ... there have got to be lots of other things everyone loves about it!

      Seriously, I don't get it either. Slow booting is caused by slow BIOSes, not by the fact that the BIOS model is inherently slow -- it isn't! Many popular BIOSes have ridiculously long POSTs but that's their fault. Once that's over, loading the boot image from disk takes a few hundred milliseconds (max) even in real mode with INT 13h. Switching from real mode to protected mode takes a few dozen microseconds, using boilerplate code that we all debugged back when the 386 came out. Why complain about that now? They've increased the BIOS disk size limit a bazillion times and there's nothing stopping them from doing it again (last time around they finally generalized it so all you have to do is increase the packet size that can be accepted by the same EDD calls).

    3. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, they could put flash ads right in the bios!

    4. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by gig · · Score: 1

      What's more important: booting from a floppy, or booting from a server over the Internet? Because thanks to EFI, I can boot the Lion installer from a server at Apple, but Lion cannot fit on a floppy. The same is true of any modern operating system. A Live CD is utter bullshit compared to booting off an Internet server.

    5. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by yuhong · · Score: 1

      Well, remember that EFI was originally designed for Itanium and was designed to be platform independent.

    6. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by yuhong · · Score: 1

      And also that the bytecode is for things like option ROMs on PCI cards etc which has to connect with the UEFI firmware.

    7. Re:UEFI - pre-boot bloatware by billcopc · · Score: 1

      So they baked a netinstall image into the EFI flash. Not rocket science. We've had LinuxBIOS for how many years now ? It can do that too.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  40. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by 0123456 · · Score: 1

    I would actually be surprised if UEFI didn't support this.

    Microsoft will presumably refuse to 'Windows certify' motherboards which allow you to turn off 'secure boot'. All for the user's security, of course.

    They've wanted a completely locked-in system for a decade or more since they started pushing DRM. They couldn't do that with the old BIOS, but they can now; if not in this generation then they will for 'Windows 9' once the old BIOS-based motherboards are gone.

  41. More like UFIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh wait, this isn't FARK.

    But seriously, go check out BoingBoing for what this means for Open Source / Free operating systems.

  42. AMD to rescue by glittermage · · Score: 1

    Any reason why AMD could not design an open & free specification with as much industry participation as possible? That would seem like a good move.

    1. Re:AMD to rescue by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Because then Windows 8 will somehow become incompatible with "unsupported hardware configurations".

      bool should_installation_succeed() {
              if (may_run_non_ms_os)
                      return false;
              else
                      return true;
      }

    2. Re:AMD to rescue by zixxt · · Score: 1

      Already there, they support the open source, freesoftware version of a BIOS replacement... Coreboot

      UEFI needs to die a fast death.

      http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/05/09/1115235/AMD-To-Support-Coreboot-On-All-Upcoming-Processors

      http://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2011/05/06/amd-commits-to-coreboot/

      --
      ---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  43. Re:UEFI In The Data Center Not Ready For Prime Tim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Service processors are different than UEFI, however.

  44. UEFI good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh wow now I can use teh mouse in teh setup screenz.

    OpenBOOT, free FORTH environment, boot from anything available and if not and all else fails you can write it there and then, anyone? Talk about bootstrapping.

    I don't think UEFI is all that nice, compared to what already exists, unless you restrict your comparisons to BIOS only, and that isn't really fair. Just another poorly reinvented wheel. But hey, at least it allows vendors to lock you out of hardware you thought you owned. BONUS.

  45. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2

    Like movie DVD players there are bound to be one or two manufactures who will leave in a back door to allow install of any OS. Also, any lock in specifically designed to only allow Windows to work will either be worked around or will result in another anti-trust lawsuit for MS.

    Another scenario is that Linux users will buy Macs to run Linux, since Macs already support EFI. Then seeing the impact of this other companies will try to add ways of installing Linux.

    I think in the long run we have nothing to worry about, though we should be careful about the hardware we buy.

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  46. Even this draconian measure... by Mnemennth · · Score: 1
    ... cannot save the MicroSoft/Intel cabal from the coming of the Post-PC era. As people continue to get their connectivity from other devices, they will get further and further away from caring about either of these brands, just as most people don't care about the transmission/engine in their cars until it stops working. And for the same reason. Locking down the hardware even more tightly will only force people to seek alternatives rather than draw them into this failing binary system.

    mnem

    *Tired being expected to get excited about what is essentially the transmission in his computing device*

  47. FINALLY! by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    with all this extra memory needed to put in this GUI crap, malware can be 100% embedded in the BIOS without any way to get rid of it!

    permanent remote access anyone?

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  48. hypervisor by ZeroNullVoid · · Score: 1

    So yeah, just add XEN and it is another hypervisor with Windows or whatever being the DOM0.

  49. Re:My question isn't about big corps, but big crim by thryllkill · · Score: 1

    Well I would assume that if the secure boot thing checks the keys of software that runs at boot, there would be some similar key based check done before something was flashed onto UEFI. This of course brings us back to the problem of just how reliable are digitally signed keys?

    Another problem I have is that my gaming rig is always a Windows machine, and I'm okay with that. But then about every two years I build a new one, and the old one becomes a Linux machine of some flavor. If the way things shake out I'd have to build two machines to accomplish what I want, instead of just maintaining a machine whose only crime is still being worthwhile as a computer, just not a game machine.

    --

    Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.

  50. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by kthreadd · · Score: 1

    Microsoft will presumably refuse to 'Windows certify' motherboards which allow you to turn off 'secure boot'. All for the user's security, of course.

    So this whole "Microsoft kills Linux" thing is more of a "Microsoft may presumably do something that indirect may be bad for Linux".

  51. EFI is nothing new by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was using EFI in 2002/2003 when I worked on Itanic servers at HP. I remember being told at the time that it was the future and would soon be on PCs. However things seem to have moved on, I don't remember having any kind of GUI, just a DOS like interface.

  52. Maybe it would be more useful by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

    if it had some kind of hypervisor functionality.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  53. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Also, any lock in specifically designed to only allow Windows to work will either be worked around or will result in another anti-trust lawsuit for MS.

    By whom? An anti-trust lawsuit requires the US DOJ to do the prosecution. If the DOJ doesn't want to do it, then it's not going to happen. What makes you think the DOJ would have any interest in enforcing anti-trust law? Did you forget that Bush ordered the DOJ to drop their case against MS back in 2000? What makes you think the Republican who takes over the White House next year would be any different? Or that Obama, if he somehow got re-elected (fat chance), would do anything different? (He's been one of the best Republican Presidents ever.)

  54. More like by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    UFIA, if Microsoft gets their way.

  55. Wow, different people have different perspectives by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    ... on a subject, and... and... more than one of them are posted... on the same website. Wow, what a mind-blowing concept. Seriously, dude, "Slashdot" is not a monolithic brain that has one and only one opinion on any given topic. UEFI is a controversial topic, and postings on Slashdot are going to reflect differing views.

  56. Other nifty things by Quila · · Score: 1

    Graphical picking of boot disk

    If your hard drive or SSD dies and you replace it, or if you destroy your version of OS X Lion somehow, the latest Macs, using UEFI, will go out over the network to Apple, download a new copy of Lion, and install it.

    Try that with BIOS.

  57. Maybe by sean.peters · · Score: 1

    But my general feeling is that users sophisticated enough to wipe and replace their hard drive are probably sophisticated enough to understand not to wipe out that hidden partition labelled "UEFI". Sure, some won't be, and they'll suffer. But we're not talking about a very large portion of the population - your grandma is not going to be wiping and reloading the OS in the first place, and 1337 haxxxors are probably going to figure out how to do this safely.

    1. Re:Maybe by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I've run into an amazing lot of people who think "reformat" is identical to "factory-fresh" and don't understand that the OS is a separate beastie, or that they just FDISK'd their recovery partition, and that's why it doesn't work. Some of these folks have been grandpas, others college students.

      And what happens when the HD develops a bad spot in the middle of the hidden UEFI partition?

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  58. Poor babies, job too hard? by Quila · · Score: 1

    Time for them to find an easier job.

    From a user perspective, UEFI rocks.

    1. Re:Poor babies, job too hard? by visualight · · Score: 1

      NO IT DOESN'T.

      The only people who *like* UEFI are the ignorant and the shills. From a user perspective it is an annoying transition that brings NOT ONE SINGLE BENEFIT that can't be had in a much simpler pain free way.

      The FACT is that this pile of crap started out life as a HACK for Itanium that inexplicably stayed alive.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
  59. Re:My question isn't about big corps, but big crim by Hatta · · Score: 1

    Your bios is already flashable. That's how bios updates work. And yes, there are bios viruses.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  60. Simple is not always good by sjbe · · Score: 1

    BIOS has a LOT of limitations. >2TB hard drives, network boot, disk controllers, GPU's, IPMI, ... everything has to subvert the BIOS in some way which makes it mightily slow. My iMac boots with Lion in 7 seconds. My Linux machine takes 15 seconds just getting to Grub, my servers take up to 45 seconds to get to the boot loader.

    All of the things you mentioned above are _positive_ things, in that you would have to be crazy to use the bios for anything other than loading the os and getting the hell out.

    How exactly is a longer boot time and slow operation that needs to be circumvented a "positive" thing? The mere fact that you can work around the BIOS does not make it good.

    1. Re:Simple is not always good by walshy007 · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong, the bios has more than its fair share of issues. But these issues can be resolved by removing all of the functionality presently just bypassed by modern kernels. It is that crap which gives you the longer boot times.

      EFI is a step in the wrong direction, it is a step towards more complicated boot process. It should be as simple as possible while getting the job done, because the more complex you make it, the more bugs creep their ugly heads.

  61. Too bad PXE for UEFI is such a damn pain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We've had a ton of issues with the various large vendors (IBM, HP, Dell, etc) and UEFI PXE boot. For the past couple of years we've just dissabled it in UEFI and enabled legacy style PXE. Well, this needs to change. Too bad none of these vendors have done much to help with their damn issues.

  62. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft will presumably refuse to 'Windows certify' motherboards which allow you to turn off 'secure boot'.

    Presumed by who?

  63. Re:lot's of hardware raid cards have some kind of by inglorion_on_the_net · · Score: 1

    Now it can be a big plus to have gui with mouse to config a raid card with out having to boot a full os.

    Hahahaha! Really? Being able to use the mouse is such a big advantage?

    Still, if you really want to use the mouse to configure things, no need to throw out the BIOS. I remember old (early 1990s) Compaq BIOSes that had GUIs, mouse and all. IIRC, they looked kind of like Windows 3.x.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  64. Re:My question isn't about big corps, but big crim by Reziac · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering if we're headed back to the era of the access-dongle, so you get a dongle with your new computer, just like you get a key with your new car.

    [Cue mutterings about how if the dongle isn't write-protected, all sorts of nasty effects could ensue.]

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  65. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Because there have been more recent antitrust lawsuits by the DOJ as they have actual balls. Such as the AT&T lawsuit currently ongoing.

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  66. Re:My question isn't about big corps, but big crim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea isn't far from how mobile device makers secure their boot loaders. The flash part can be set as read only and only unlocked by some special process. That process can check for signed updates (IIRC, some of that is in the EFI capsule update specification). And with the driver structure of EFI, the firmware can check for signed drivers before running them. At least some thought has been put into security but I do think it will be interesting to see what happens. BIOS security was mostly based on the fact that is just didn't look like a good target because of the realities of real mode x86 code that was not set up for any sort of dynamic relocation. So it seems that UEFI has more thought for security put into it.

  67. Laptop components by tepples · · Score: 1

    and the rest of us will continue to build our own from components.

    Know of any good sites selling components with which to build a laptop?

    1. Re:Laptop components by kheldan · · Score: 1

      I really think everyone is panicking a bit early on this one. I don't disagree that Microsoft would love it if they were able to keep every other OS off people's computers, forever, but the fact of the matter is that if they manage to do this, it's creating a monopoly, and I believe that there would be legal issues raised at that point? Besides which, how long do you think it would take for the Linux community to jailbreak computers built that way? A week? Two, maybe? A month, on the outside?

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  68. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by pjt33 · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of the EU? They're a bit keener on anti-trust actions against US companies than the US is.

  69. Par2 by tepples · · Score: 1

    And what happens when the HD develops a bad spot in the middle of the hidden UEFI partition?

    A thin layer of error correction like Par2 on the recovery image might help with that.

    Here's another stumper: What happens when the HD develops a bad spot in the boot sector?

    1. Re:Par2 by sean.peters · · Score: 1

      In that case you can just replace the HD. But if the UEFI partition goes bad, wouldn't you just be out of luck? Your new drive wouldn't contain the required signature to load the OS.

  70. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

    Last I heard, they're in a giant financial crisis which threatens to actually destroy their monetary union, so their attention might be occupied.

    Anyway, the EU doesn't have any say over what gets sold in the US. Even if the EU forbade Windows-only secure-booting machines, MS would still be free to require all machines sold in the US to be made that way, and the US is a giant market. Of course, this could create a small gray market, with EU-market machines being sent over for Linux users. Of course, it's far more likely we'd have gray-market machines or motherboards being sent over from Asia, where they're all made anyway, but expect the prices to be higher since it'd be a specialty item.

  71. Why UEFI by fronti · · Score: 1

    why UEFI and not common used standards like Openfirmware? This is already used in many systems and not so bad..

  72. Fat Checks for Racks of FreeBSD/Linux Servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LOL! And Nobody is going to want those quantity 1000 orders? You know your salesmen are too old when . . . .

  73. Re:lot's of hardware raid cards have some kind of by NJRoadfan · · Score: 1

    Those Compaq machines had a hidden service partition that actually booted DOS and ran the setup program along with diagnostics programs. If your HD died or you completely wiped the service partition off, you couldn't get into setup until you restored it. The only self contained BIOS I can think of that used a mouse was the AMI WinBIOS, which everyone seems to hate for some reason.

  74. Its quite nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You guys can be so negative. I just built a new system with the Z68 chipset with an asus mobo running a UEFI just like the one shown in the article. Using the mouse and a decent graphical interface to alter boot order and set overclocking settings is pretty damn cool, and I've been mucking with the BIOS since you had to enter the # of heads and cylinders for hard drives manually.

  75. Laptop mobos by tepples · · Score: 1

    I looked in the motherboard section of NewEgg and all I could find were for desktops, not laptops. Are we entering a market where desktops can run Ubuntu but new laptops can run only Windows?

  76. Once System76 runs out of laptops to refurbish by tepples · · Score: 1

    As I understand it, these two companies don't manufacture their own laptops. Instead, they refurbish the major OEMs' laptops, install Ubuntu, and resell them. Once the major OEMs' laptops are locked down with UEFI secure boot to run only Microsoft operating systems, where will these two companies get laptops to refurbish?

    1. Re:Once System76 runs out of laptops to refurbish by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Since I actually own one, I can tell you System76 did not sell me a refurbished laptop. Nore were the two servers. The servers were Intel brand white box server hardware (motherboards and cases) and the laptop was a nice finished piece, but I do not know who from. But for sure, not Dell, HP/Compaq, Asus, Toshiba, or Sony.

    2. Re:Once System76 runs out of laptops to refurbish by tepples · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the tidbit. Now please allow me to rephrase, taking this new (to me) information into account: Will System76 still be able to buy "a nice finished piece" to sell to its customers after the major OEMs have switched over to UEFI secure boot upon launch of Windows 8?

    3. Re:Once System76 runs out of laptops to refurbish by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      They design/fab through one of the three companies that manufacture laptop motherboards. As do all the companies that are not one of those companies. I believe the only one that sells their own designs is Asustek.

    4. Re:Once System76 runs out of laptops to refurbish by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

      Yes. Because they do not get anything from the major OEMs. They sell new equipment, not rebadged Dells.

  77. Won't the Spooks love this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am thinking the spooks will love having a mini-OS to put secret hooks. It allows them
    to directly access your system bypassing your own OS.

  78. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft will presumably refuse to 'Windows certify' motherboards which allow you to turn off 'secure boot'.

    Presumed by who?

    By anyone possessing the sense that God granted a goatse?

  79. From a user perspective, I get by Quila · · Score: 1

    2+ TB GPT boot drives
    Graphical pre-boot interfaces with mouse
    Graphical installation of my OS over the network
    No more legacy 16-bit

    From a user perspective, I don't care about all the crap you're talking about. It just works.

    1. Re:From a user perspective, I get by visualight · · Score: 0

      2+ TB GPT boot drives Meh. No thanks, don't need it EVER if EFI is a requisite.
      Graphical pre-boot interfaces with mouse Seriously Stupid to even want that.
      Graphical installation of my OS over the network Everyone's had this since forever.
      No more legacy 16-bit Why do you even care about that? You're just a user so you don't even know it's there...right? Shill.

      What's it bring to the table ? NOT A DAMN THING.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    2. Re:From a user perspective, I get by Quila · · Score: 1

      Boot drives: Because you don't want it doesn't mean people don't. We are already encountering this problem just for accessing drives as 3 TB drives become more common.

      Graphical boot: I quite like it. Boot up with Option key pressed, see a nice list of drives to boot from, click the one you want.

      Intall OS over network: You can't boot into BIOS and click to reinstall your OS over the Internet. This isn't the same as needing a boot floppy that pulls down an image from your local server (which I was admittedly doing in the mid 90s with Linux).

      16-bit: Legacy, want to get away from legacy and be more modern and stable.

      It doesn't bring anything YOU want. But when users see what's in the Mac, the largest example of UEFI on the market, they tend to be impressed.

      The Mac's installation is actually pretty limited. Everything you can do with user-unfriendly DOS-like menus on BIOS can be done much more user-friendly with UEFI. So some people don't like programming that. Too bad, get a job you're more suited for.

    3. Re:From a user perspective, I get by visualight · · Score: 1

      Nothing to do with programming, I'm talking about from user perspective -I don't know why you keep going on about that. I don't work for AMI or Intel. I'm starting to think that you do though.

      It's broken. It's broken because it's over-engineered and needlessly abstracted. It's that way ONLY to give Intel more control.

      Seriously, all you have is a mouse in BIOS (something you should enter once or twice EVER, and a 3TB root file system (where a smaller SSD for the same money is much smarter choice). Whatever, you think that's great. But EFI is the worst possible way to get there.

      I have 4 (years old) machines at home, none of them have 16 legacy support.

      No one needs a floppy to install an OS from the network. It's a boot option IN THE BIOS.

      MAC's have EFI to support their secure boot, and people aren't impressed with it, they labor to work around it.

      None of the things you list have any business being in the bios. BIOS should small, dumb, and fast. EFI is bloated and buggy and only fast on select machines. It's painful to watch systems boot so slow.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
    4. Re:From a user perspective, I get by Quila · · Score: 1

      Seriously, all you have is a mouse in BIOS (something you should enter once or twice EVER, and a 3TB root file system (where a smaller SSD for the same money is much smarter choice). Whatever, you think that's great. But EFI is the worst possible way to get there.

      I like both features, and from a user perspective EFI gets me there.

      No one needs a floppy to install an OS from the network. It's a boot option IN THE BIOS.

      Netboot vs. connecting to the Internet (even over wireless) and installing an OS from the Internet.

      MAC's have EFI to support their secure boot,

      Macs (abbreviation for Macintosh in the plural, not the acronym for Media Access Control in the possessive) have UEFI because in the switch from PPC, BIOS just didn't cut it compared to the Open Firmware used on the PPC Macs. Apple isn't the type to downgrade to older technology when making a switch.

      None of the things you list have any business being in the bios. BIOS should small, dumb, and fast. EFI is bloated and buggy and only fast on select machines.

      If it's only fast on select machines, that probably means the others were programmed by people like these bitching because they don't know how to properly implement UEFI.

    5. Re:From a user perspective, I get by visualight · · Score: 1

      I like both features...Whatever. You must be a shill. No one can sustain this level of ignorance for this long.

      BIOS just didn't cut it...What? Quit making shit up man. Intel makes the motherboards, Apple didn't choose EFI, they ALLOWED it, for ONE reason, secure boot for OSX.

      connecting to the Internet (even over wireless) and installing an OS from the Internet. Had that since forever, thanks for playing. http://ipxe.org/ does that and a LOT more, and does it well.

      it's only fast on select machines, that probably means the others were programmed by people like these bitching because they don't know how to properly implement UEFI. No, "select" meaning machines with fuck all for hardware. Every implementation everywhere is/was programmed by Intel (excluding screenshots and other irrelevent bullshit). NOT ANYONE ELSE. Do you understand this? This is not and never was about programming UEFI.

      Done with Intel and with you, Intel employee #589001, I'll be off playing with AMD and Coreboot, which boots fast on all machines btw.

      http://kerneltrap.org/node/6884 \--Read.

      --
      Samsung took back my unlocked bootloader because Google wants me to rent movies. They're both evil.
  80. no more bricking? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    does this mean that we won't have to worry about firmware updating potentially bricking your machine if things don't go well?

    that has always baffled me that there wasn't a ultra-base layer that could not be modified and did not NEED to be modified that would simply allow your machine to always boot...

    so is that what uefi means?

    i hope so.

  81. A new place to store viruses by chrisphotonic · · Score: 1

    How dumb. If your OS is already so crappy that it gives someone access to the bootloader when what hope do you have that the virus won't write itself into the OS just after the boot loader. Just hook in anywhere/everywhere else. AND now you have created a place to STORE more viruses when this dumb thing gets hacked.

  82. Re:Matthew Garrett explains secure boot implicatio by couchslug · · Score: 1

    If it's a SWITCH or jumper, Bubba and LaQueefa ain't cracking the case.

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  83. Stupid idea by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    The BIOS has problems. So fix them, change the BIOS. Adding a new level of abstraction between the BIOS and the OS, or making a BIOS replacement that is a shiny toy, is asking for trouble.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  84. Can you mark your *own* Linux as secure to UEFI? by erlkonig · · Score: 1

    The key point is whether the end user can install a signature for his *own* operating system in his own hardware, and then secure boot linux. Nothing in the document suggests this is possible (and MS slams linux as an older operating system for "enthusiasts", but that isn't really the point)

  85. This is a bad idea all around. by idbeholda · · Score: 1

    Taken directly from the article.

    "UEFI, being a pseudo-operating system, can access all of the hardware on the computer — you can surf the internet from the UEFI interface, or backup your hard drives — and it even has a full, mouse-driven GUI (below right). The fact that all of this boot data is stored on NAND flash or on a hard drive means that there’s a lot more space for things like language localization, boot-time diagnostics (begone meaningless POST beeps!), utilities (backup, restore, malware scanners), and so on."

    Unless the UEFI can be wiped FROM the underlying system (DOS, meet BIOS: they won't get rid of you, they'll just get better at hiding you from the base of heathen users), and users are GIVEN this option, this does not get rid of the possibility of rootkits. This just makes it laughably easier. Anyone who believes otherwise is clearly an idiot and has little to no understanding of actual system security. This will turn out to be little more than a prettied up version of DOS. I'm even willing to bet money on it.

  86. UEFI is a standard by cnxsoft · · Score: 1

    The reason UEFI will replace BIOS is that it's a standard and not every vendors will have their own BIOS implementations. It also provide support for fast boot and large disks (> 2.2 TB).

  87. DRM on the motherboard anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are Windows vs non-windows-os issues in play here, but

    How does uefi do for enabling motherboard-level DRM strategies?

  88. A really usefull preposal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A modern system should contain two SDHC slots, one named SYSTEM, one named DATA.
    The Bios should just blindly and nearly instantly try to boot from the SYSTEM SDHC slot, and probably not be upgradable at all.

    SDHC is enough to have your all operating system on it for just e few dollars per card.
    SDHC has a read-only button, so you can really prevent any rootkit to install.
    As a result, you can at last have different environments, some for playing, some for doing sensible tasks,
    each environment beeing just an SDHC system card. And last but not least, before upgrading the operating system,
    you can make a true backup (copy the SYSTEM SDHC to another one) that will be restored through just reinserting
    the old SDHC card.

    No more partitions, cards please, and security will become a reality !
    Also USB could provide it, there are several small issues that makes SDHC/SDXC better suited for the task.

  89. The next POTUS will just drop the case by tepples · · Score: 1

    if they manage to do this, it's creating a monopoly, and I believe that there would be legal issues raised at that point

    Remember how U.S. President George W. Bush dropped the DOJ's case against Microsoft as soon as President Clinton left office? If the Obama administration were to sue or prosecute Microsoft for such monopolistic practice, watch President Perry or President Romney drop the case.

    how long do you think it would take for the Linux community to jailbreak computers built that way?

    Should I include the years spent waiting for the next DMCA rulemaking to get the jailbreak exemption expanded from phones to also cover computers?