Librarian Attacks Amazon's Kindle Lending Program

So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-20 06:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers

The libraries also keep a record of who has checked out what books. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to send you a notice saying you have overdue books.

They also are subject to FISA warrants (the "we can't tell you if your history has been subpoenaed") for your entire borrowing history.

Re:So do the libraries by Oxford_Comma_Lover · 2011-10-20 06:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

There's a difference between a record of the books you currently have out and a record of the books you've ever checked out.

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-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
Re:So do the libraries by amliebsch · 2011-10-20 06:03 · Score: 1

Yes, but the library would never use that information to try to sell you something, which apparently is the most offensive activity imaginable, if you are a librarian.

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If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:05 · Score: 5, Informative

I used to work for a company that makes library software and this is actually a very important issue in that field. While keeping a list of who has what is unavoidable, the librarians are very adamant that there should be no borrowing history stored. When you return the book they make a point to delete all records that show you ever had it.
Re:So do the libraries by Desler · 2011-10-20 06:08 · Score: 1

And libraries do too. GP is correct. This person is just a whinging hypocrite.
Re:So do the libraries by spopepro · 2011-10-20 06:09 · Score: 2

This is misleading. The library keeps records of what you currently have checked out. My public and school libraries do not keep a record of what I have checked out in the past. Your library may differ, but the ALA officially vigorously defends individuals right to intellectual freedom, and that includes not tracking reading history.
Re:So do the libraries by Phiz · 2011-10-20 06:11 · Score: 5, Informative

Most libraries have privacy policies that state they delete the record of a book being checked out once it is returned. For example, you can find the policy for NYC public libraries here: http://www.nypl.org/help/about-nypl/legal-notices/privacy-policy. They even state that they backup their data, and the record of your returned book may exist for an additional 4 weeks in their rolling backup system. I love that they give you this level of detail into how they operate.
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

libraries don't sell your data
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:14 · Score: 1

Um, not at my library. We delete your borrowing history once your books are checked back in. And the head librarian has gone to jail instead of giving out what people currently have checked out.
Re:So do the libraries by afidel · 2011-10-20 06:26 · Score: 4, Informative

Actually your library records are no longer covered, that part of the PATRIOT Act was not renewed. FISA only covers foreign agents. I know because the head librarian for the Medina County Library system has been one of the champions against COPA, the Patriot Act provision, and any other legislation which restricts the freedom of her patrons to freely read what they want without the government peering over their shoulder.

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There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:So do the libraries by geekoid · 2011-10-20 06:27 · Score: 2

Historically, the libraries make a stink about any search, and are sticklers for the law. Corporation are willing to give over any information the feds want with a phone call.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:So do the libraries by geekoid · 2011-10-20 06:30 · Score: 2

Depends. Some libraries offer this service, but it's opt in.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:33 · Score: 1

Yes, but the library would never use that information to try to sell you something, which apparently is the most offensive activity imaginable, if you are a librarian.
The idea that you can't figure out your wants and needs on your own, and would need some marketer to tell you what those are, really is a gigantic insult. Just because it is common and the passive sheeple "consumer" is promoted as normal (by marketers by the way) doesn't make it right.

It's sort of like Jim Crow laws and segretation from decades ago. They were widespread everyday practices. They were just the way things were. But they were completely fucked up. It took time for society to recognize that and end them. Marketers who tell us what we should want with a "lemme sell ya somethin" attitude are the same. They are supposed to respond to us. Corporations are there to serve us. They need to know their role.
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:51 · Score: 1

Untrue. My public library has all the books I ever checked out. I have browsed my account online before it goes back years actually.
Re:So do the libraries by Joce640k · 2011-10-20 07:02 · Score: 1

Yes, but the library would never use that information to try to sell you something
No... but they do alert the FBI if you take out any 'subversive' books.
And I think that's worse.

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No sig today...
Re:So do the libraries by Monchanger · 2011-10-20 07:26 · Score: 3, Interesting

Don't be stupid and don't spread stupid.
If your local library ignores the ALA, that's up to you to fix.
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 07:49 · Score: 1

FISA only covers foreign agents.
Except if you have any relationship to that foreign agent in anyway. If you've contacted him, or even if he's contacted someone you've contacted. You are subject to FISA as well.
Re:So do the libraries by Ghubi · 2011-10-20 08:01 · Score: 1

I guess some libraries are better than others.
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-20 08:44 · Score: 3, Informative

The libraries can be ordered under a FISA warrant to hand over your entire history. Not just the books you've checked out, but also all other media (dvds, periodicals), any search requests you made while logged into their system either locally or remotely, any library-hosted events you attended, and any and all other information they have on you ... all while being required to NOT tell you that they've handed over the info even if you ask.
Re:So do the libraries by Joce640k · 2011-10-20 08:44 · Score: 2

So what's the FBI "Library Awareness Program" all about then?

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No sig today...
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-20 08:48 · Score: 1, Interesting

I used to work for a company that makes library software and this is actually a very important issue in that field. While keeping a list of who has what is unavoidable, the librarians are very adamant that there should be no borrowing history stored. When you return the book they make a point to delete all records that show you ever had it.

So, you check out a book, find that it's damaged, and return it - and they have no way of telling who took it out before you. They have 50 other customers with the same complaint. Too bad they didn't have a history so that they could find out if all 50 books had a common reader in the past ...
Or the update to the main inventory doesn't take place, and you're dinged with a claim that you never returned the book.
Or (as happened to me) the software filed the return as being a different book (one that doesn't even exist), and I get a note 6 months later telling me to either return the book, pay for a replacement, or face jail time. Fortunately, I was able to prove that the book in question was returned, and that the book that they said I returned doesn't exist, but it took a LOT of shouting (a most effective tactic in a library, because EVERYONE can hear you :-)
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-20 08:52 · Score: 1

libraries don't sell your data

1. [citation needed]
2. ... yet.
3. .... that you are aware of.
4. no, they give it up for free (as per the article).
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-20 08:54 · Score: 1

FISA only covers foreign agents.

Except if you have any relationship to that foreign agent in anyway. If you've contacted him, or even if he's contacted someone you've contacted. You are subject to FISA as well.
... does that include checking out the same book they did? Speaking of which, library books make great ways to pass coded messages back and forth. All you need is some vinegar or a light pencil, or even a pin.
Re:So do the libraries by sconeu · 2011-10-20 09:03 · Score: 1

Where do you live? I want to get a library card there!

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General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
Re:So do the libraries by darnkitten · 2011-10-20 09:30 · Score: 2

Untrue. My public library has all the books I ever checked out. I have browsed my account online before it goes back years actually.
You should request that they remove the data.
You might also contact your legislature to request a bill to mandate patron privacy. In Montana, the library patron has a right to privacy, except in the matter of overdue books and bills. Libraries are also required by the state legislature to post a notice informing patrons of the danger of patron records being seized by Federal agents and that librarians would be unable to inform them (the patrons) of any seizure. Within months, the Montana Shared Catalog implemented a policy of erasing records after one month or the second checkout (In order to deal with damages found by inspection or reported by the next patron checking out an item).
Re:So do the libraries by Monchanger · 2011-10-20 09:55 · Score: 2

It's not what you claimed was happening.
Nor is it current.
Nor was it library-endorsed.
And it certainly wasn't library-initiated.
So... what the hell are you talking about?
Re:So do the libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 11:13 · Score: 1

I am a library science student and one of the things they teach us is that all libraries should have a policy of destroying any personally identifiable records as soon as possible.
When the patriot act rolled through and your ISP, DMV, and lord knows who else voluntarily handed all your personal information over to the government without question, one of the only groups that held their ground was librarians. DHS claimed under the patriot act that libraries would be required to store lending data and make that data available to law enforcement. This was challenged in court and librarians won the right to protect patrons' privacy. If we didn't cave to the Bush administration, why should we cave to Amazon?
Re:So do the libraries by lonecrow · 2011-10-20 16:25 · Score: 1

The last of those issues could be solved by a return receipt that you keep. (I know who wants to keep a bunch more receipts right). Not that those issues you raised are not valid, but where does trading privacy for convenience end?
Re:So do the libraries by sFurbo · 2011-10-20 19:03 · Score: 3, Informative

IIRC, exactly that rule made some libraries ditch their records about books returned. The librarians seem to be some of the staunchest protectors of civil liberties. They didn't want to turn over anything to the authorities, so they minimised the amount of information they had.
Re:So do the libraries by Joce640k · 2011-10-20 19:53 · Score: 1

It's not what you claimed was happening.
Nor is it current.
Are you naive enough to think they stopped doing it because a few librarians complained? All it means is they changed the name and stopped doing it so openly.

Nor was it library-endorsed.
And it certainly wasn't library-initiated.
I never said it was.
I think I see the problem now, you're a librarian (or know one personally). You think you/they have ethics and are personally offended by this.
I've got news: Ethics don't apply when the black SUVs arrive outside and people come in saying "Patriot Act". I've heard they can be very persuasive. You also can't ask questions and you're not allowed to tell anybody they were there (or even exist). Sure, a few stories about visits will get out but they'll seem like isolated incidents rather than anything systematic. Plus everything's computerized these days so quite often they can snoop in the background without anybody even knowing.

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No sig today...
Re:So do the libraries by Monchanger · 2011-10-21 01:36 · Score: 1

Yawn. Got any proof to all these wild accusations? No, of course not. Because it's "hidden better now..."
I think I see the problem. You watch television all day in your mother's basement and don't have friends to help you learn about the way the world actually works.
PS- you kept that rant pretty short. That'll never get you cred with fellow conspiracy theorists.
Re:So do the libraries by drkoemans · 2011-10-21 05:55 · Score: 1

You are clearly NOT a librarian. Yes they are subject to FISA warrants but records are immediately destroyed or unlinked when a piece of media is returned (book, movie, etc). So yes, they do turn over the records but that is only for what is currently checked out. As other commentors have mentioned, the libraries in most (but not all) states are likely our greatest protectors of civil liberties. Even if you have never used your library you have benefited from them directly. FWIW, I am not a librarian but have worked closely with them for last 15 years. I have great respect for what they do.
Re:So do the libraries by jahudabudy · 2011-10-21 07:44 · Score: 1

So, you check out a book, find that it's damaged, and return it - and they have no way of telling who took it out before you

When the book is processed in, which still happens by an actual human being everywhere I am aware of, they are supposed to notice any damage and note it in the book's record along with the date and note in the patron's record that they returned a damaged book.

Or the update to the main inventory doesn't take place, and you're dinged with a claim that you never returned the book.

If you have returned the book, it will be on the shelf (or waiting to be processed). Most places have a form you fill out and someone will go look for that book. If they find it on the shelf, you obviously returned it. I honestly don't see how keeping your check-out history addresses this concern.

In general, libraries have been doing this for A LONG TIME, and have policies and processes in place from long before computers were even around to address the problems that can arise. You shouldn't have to shout, they should have forms and processes already in place for these common occurrences. Jail time is a ludicrous threat over what was probably at most a $50 fine. Sounds like your local library sucks.

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...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-21 10:18 · Score: 1

First, it's a good thing that you're not a librarian, because your reading comprehension needs some work. I never said that all libraries keep everything for years and years. I *did* say that they do keep records - and that obviously includes what's checked out and by whom.
Second, just because you delete a record doesn't mean it's gone. Ever hear of back-ups?
Third, how much control do you have over the company that you outsource the application to?
Fourth, None of this prevents them from also taking the book and looking for traces of the user - fingerprints, hair, dna, etc. Remember, 80% of that "dust" you see floating around in a beam of sunlight indoors is dead skin flakes.
Fifth, policies are set by muni governments. If some muni gets it in their head that keeping records of these things is a good idea, it's going to happen, whether you like it or not.
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-21 10:23 · Score: 2

When the book is processed in, which still happens by an actual human being everywhere I am aware of, they are supposed to notice any damage and note it in the book's record along with the date and note in the patron's record that they returned a damaged book.

They're not going to notice that some smart-a** removed the last page, so you end up not knowing how the story ends (happened once) or that some other fundy librarian had sliced out pages in a reference work (you know, the books that don't get checked out) that happened to contain material threatening to their beliefs.
Censorship - some librarians do it too.

If you have returned the book, it will be on the shelf (or waiting to be processed). Most places have a form you fill out and someone will go look for that book. If they find it on the shelf, you obviously returned it.

If the book in question doesn't exist, no amount of searching will find it. It won't be checked out, it won't be sitting on a shelf. Libraries are bureaucracies, same as anywhere else.
Re:So do the libraries by drkoemans · 2011-10-21 10:30 · Score: 1

Your comment is almost not worth replying to. I also did not say they keep things for years and years but I like your note about reading comprehension. Backups would also be included under a warrant so no, they don't keep backups of that data either. The data doesn't exist in any fashion for it to be discovered. If it did and they didn't comply, it would be serious legal trouble. The work around is to simply destroy everything. Many libraries run triple i, (III) which is a local installation, no outsourcing. All data is controlled of the library itself. I can't speak for all libraries in this regard, I'm sure there is plenty of outsourcing, interlibrary loan probably also falls into this category if the loaning library does not have the same records retention policy. Fouth is pure tin foil hat territory and Fifth is spot on. I am in Washington State which generally speaking is extremely liberal. I have heard of other states (florida comes to mind) where the libraries have turned data over. As always, YMMV depending on your local.
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-21 12:33 · Score: 1

Obviously all libraries running the programs that are discussed in the main article DO share data well beyond their doors :-)
Re:So do the libraries by mostlyDigital · 2011-10-23 03:24 · Score: 1

Library software deletes the record of any material borrowed as soon as the material is returned. This is not the case with Amazon.
Re:So do the libraries by mostlyDigital · 2011-10-23 03:29 · Score: 1

Precisely why library software (generally) deletes closed transactions automatically. You may want to verify this with your local librarian (be prepared to follow up with the software vendor). Remember that libraries require a warrant. A request by a walk-in police officer (or husband or wife) is turned away. Libraries make every effort (short of keeping no records) to protect the privacy of patrons.
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-23 04:10 · Score: 1

Library software deletes the record of any material borrowed as soon as the material is returned. This is not the case with Amazon.

1. Absolutely not true for libraries that still use manual check-in and check-out.
2. Impossible to verify for libraries that use 3rd-party solutions hosted elsewhere.
3. Absolutely not true for libraries that have been served a warrant NOT to delete the records for a particular individual.
Re:So do the libraries by tomhudson · 2011-10-23 04:17 · Score: 1

Precisely why library software (generally) deletes closed transactions automatically.

"Generally" is a big assumption, esp. for small-town operations where nepotism is important to getting the job.

You may want to verify this with your local librarian (be prepared to follow up with the software vendor).

The librarian is not a programmer, and has not audited the code. They know what the vendor tells them - nothing more. This is especially true for solutions that are either completely or partially hosted off-site.

Remember that libraries require a warrant. A request by a walk-in police officer (or husband or wife) is turned away.

Not in small towns, where the majority of people live. And how about your local school, where the librarian is a part-time teacher, doubling up as substitute teacher and lunch monitor?

Libraries make every effort (short of keeping no records) to protect the privacy of patrons.

I'm sure many do. However, if they're served with an order requiring them to NOT delete the records for an individual person of interest, guess what ... most will not go to jail. Most such orders won't even be SEEN by the librarian - the IT person will silently (as required by the order) flip the right bits.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:04 · Score: 1

I'm confused as to how it makes sense for Amazon to work with libraries if they cant even advertise.

How about letting libraries lend books directly from overdrive like the epub books ? or supporting epub format for kindle ? They can make all the money they want. Just not by advertising on eBook rentals which are purchased with public funds and have nothing to do with Amazon except for their dogged notion of not supporting epubs.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Oxford_Comma_Lover · 2011-10-20 06:05 · Score: 2

Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"

Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.

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-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!

Librarians are touchy that way by edremy · 2011-10-20 06:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've discussed this with our campus library: they deliberately keep no records at all of book lending. I wanted them to look up my records for a specific book I'd borrowed in the past and couldn't remember the title of, and they couldn't help me get it that way. (We found it via other searches) Cornell's library has posted a set of disclosure notices which seem pretty much in touch with our library and others that I've asked about since

It might not be a bad idea for Amazon to work out a similar plan: simply destroy the record once the book is returned. They might have to burn some ad records as well though, since I'm sure they're offering the book for sale, and it would be easy to track that if they got subpoenaed. My guess is that is where Amazon would balk.

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"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"

Re:Librarians are touchy that way by _KiTA_ · 2011-10-20 06:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

They won't. To Amazon, your borrowing history is "product" that they can package and sell to advertisers and their own internal teams. It would be like asking them to burn money.
Re:Librarians are touchy that way by Kenja · 2011-10-20 06:27 · Score: 1

So they dont know what books they have, which have been loaned out and to whom? Thats not a library, thats a "free book box".

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"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Re:Librarians are touchy that way by Local+ID10T · 2011-10-20 07:13 · Score: 2

So they dont know what books they have, which have been loaned out and to whom? Thats not a library, thats a "free book box".
They know what books they have. They know what books are currently on loan, and who has them. What they CHOOSE NOT TO KNOW is who had what book previously.

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"You want to know how to help your kids? Leave them the fuck alone." -George Carlin
Re:Librarians are touchy that way by i.r.id10t · 2011-10-20 07:23 · Score: 1

Strangely enough, my little small town coffee shop (one of two in town, neither are a chain) *is* a free book box. They've got shelves full, feel free to come in, get some coffee, take a (paperback only) book home. And next time you come in for your coffee, feel free to return it, or bring some other books or magazines in. They have a good assortment of hard cover books, but those aren't allowed out of the store...

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos

People don't care by DogDude · 2011-10-20 06:08 · Score: 1

People don't care. They just don't. As long as they can consume something faster and cheaper, they will. Self respect doesn't even into the equation. Welcome to Idiocracy.

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I don't respond to AC's.

Re:Poor Libraries by guyfawkes-11-5 · 2011-10-20 06:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think this librarian is just upset because he/she is realizing how irrelevant the idea of a library is anymore. Seriously, when was the last time any of you actually used a library?

This week. I never understood why they are not utilized even more than they are in these economic times. Your taxes have already paid for the books on the shelves, why buy another copy?

Wait... by milbournosphere · 2011-10-20 06:10 · Score: 1

Amazon keeps your history of reading library ebooks on their corporate servers, 'so it's an instant violation of all of our privacy policies.

Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act? How is this any worse? At least Amazon can do something positive with the data and make recommendations of books I might like...

Re:Wait... by 0123456 · 2011-10-20 06:15 · Score: 1

Doesn't the library keep a record of my reading history that is accessible by the gov'ment under the "patriot" act?
If you'd read the earlier posts, you'd know that they don't. However, the current ebook lending system at my library requires using some crappy Adobe software which presumably has to 'phone home' for DRM, so I'm not sure how this is worse.
Re:Wait... by milbournosphere · 2011-10-20 06:23 · Score: 1

After further reading, I stand corrected. Still, good point about the Adobe software; my library uses the same system.

Re:Poor Libraries by iteyoidar · 2011-10-20 06:11 · Score: 1

My city's main library tends to be pretty busy all the time. They're even building another one. Also, they have free books!

Re:Poor Libraries by nelsonal · 2011-10-20 06:12 · Score: 1

I grab books on CD there before most trips. Fairfax County has a very nice library system and strict enough zoning that the problems an earlier AC referenced are segregated to certain branches.

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Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.

Quietly, .... by PPH · 2011-10-20 06:13 · Score: 1

... I hope.

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Have gnu, will travel.

Re:Poor Libraries by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:13 · Score: 1

Public libraries are not targeted at working professionals - they are largely targeted at those who are able to visit them during business hours - retirees, the unemployed, stay at home parents and children. For most of us, paying $8 for a paperback is not an expensive proposition - fractional hour of income for multiple hours of pleasure. For those demographics listed above without direct income, the appeal is quite obvious.

Shock of Shocks by bkr1_2k · 2011-10-20 06:15 · Score: 1

Does it really surprise anyone? Amazon is the company that went and deleted people's books AFTER they were paid for and amazon will do what it takes to make a dollar. Libraries and Amazon really don't have the same mission (and shouldn't) so why is this any surprise.

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"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."

Re:Poor Libraries by b0bby · 2011-10-20 06:17 · Score: 2

I use my library all the time. They have a decent web interface where I can order what I want to be put on hold for me, and they email me when it's in. When I stop by I usually see a couple of other good books as well. They also have ebooks available through Overdrive; they just added Kindle/mobi books, but I haven't checked any of them out so I don't know if the checkout process is any different. I don't think that the Overdrive process would send you to Amazon, but I may be wrong on that.

Re:Poor Libraries by timeOday · 2011-10-20 06:18 · Score: 2

Libraries are great for families, even ones that aren't broke. Kids go through scads of books, I wouldn't want to keep them all.

Patriot Act by Tokolosh · 2011-10-20 06:18 · Score: 1

“The American Library Association (ALA) opposes any use of governmental power to suppress the free and open exchange of knowledge and information or to intimidate individuals exercising free inquiryALA considers that sections of the USA PATRIOT ACT are a present danger to the constitutional rights and privacy rights of library users.” - From the ALA website.

“The searches of some records kept by libraries and bookstores were authorized in an obscure provision of the USA Patriot Act, quietly approved by Congress six weeks after Sept. 11. The act, passed virtually without hearings or debate, allowed a variety of new federal surveillance measures, including clandestine searches of homes and expanded monitoring of telephones and the Internet. Section 215 gave the FBI authority to obtain library and bookstore records and a wide range of other documents during investigations of international terrorism or secret intelligence activities.”

“Under the Patriot Act, law-enforcement officials must still back up their library-search requests with a warrant from a court. But that court meets in secret to hear the FBI’s reasons for suspicion, critics say, and legal standards for obtaining warrants are not as tough as standards for traditional search warrants.”

Easier for the FBI to get the info from Amazon.

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Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number

Re:Poor Libraries by 0123456 · 2011-10-20 06:21 · Score: 1

Seriously, when was the last time any of you actually used a library?

Last weekend.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by ackthpt · 2011-10-20 06:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

Libraries pay for books. And Amazon gets advertisement just from having their products used, but doesn't necessarily have to say "Go buy our book!"

Although it does not seem inconsistent with library policies not to endorse, at least no more so than selling a regular book is, because regular books have advertisements by other books by the author, etc...--some older books [and magazines] even have order forms in them.

I tried to untangle that double negative phrase .. but anyway .. consider this: You own a bookstore. Your local library, which you fund through taxes, has advertisements for Amazon popping up all over. Pissed, yet?

Libraries, as public entities, should show no favoritism or grant preferential placement/access to resources influenced by a directly related private business.

If the local painter wants to give the library a reduced rate on redecorating for the placement of a placard indicating the fine (or shoddy) work was performed by Local Painter, that's one thing, as it does not directly affect access to books/periodicals.

If you have to have an Amazon account to checkout ebooks on a kindle, that's a barrier. If the books include advertising for Amazon and their offerings of books, that is also a barrier.

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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar

From a Librarian by Ismene · 2011-10-20 06:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hi - I think a lot of people here are focusing more on Librarian In Black's concern of the "Buy Now" buttons - when you should be concerned about your privacy. First, I get why she is annoyed by the "Buy Now" button. Libraries do not wish to "endorse" a particular service or product over another - and the "Buy Now" button gives the sense that "This Library supports Amazon" over another bookseller.

As for the privacy concerns, I've noticed a lot of comments on "Well, don't libraries give up those records with the PATRIOT act anyway?" When the PATRIOT act was enacted, libraries in the US scrambled to protect the rights of their users and the majority of them only have a record of who has what item out at that time - they do not have a record of what you returned.

And of course, there are lots who are saying "Libraries, bah - NOT RELEVANT." And I'm sure that is true for many of you; however, the library is more than books. Libraries provide a space for people to gather, they provide free internet to those who cannot afford it, they provide lessons on various computer programs, storytimes for children, etc. I am in an academic college library, and the majority of my students cannot afford their textbooks, let alone a computer for them to use. Please remember, you are probably viewing this article from your own computer - there are still a lot of people out there who don't have that luxury. Libraries help people with research, and despite what everyone thinks - not everything is found via Google. Perhaps Rush Limbaugh could have used a librarian / library when he made those horrible remarks about the LRA.

Re:From a Librarian by LeadSongDog · 2011-10-20 07:33 · Score: 1

1. Interlibrary loans were the original internet. The advent of http://worldcat.org/ only made them better.
2. What kind of clown still buys dead trees simply for a one-time read? (Yeah, me too...)
3. Since when are DRM files necessarily permanent? By making them time out, any need or justification for tracking who they were issued to is nullified.

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Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
Re:From a Librarian by MBCook · 2011-10-20 07:43 · Score: 1

Libraries do not wish to "endorse" a particular service or product over another - and the "Buy Now" button gives the sense that "This Library supports Amazon" over another bookseller.

Does it? I don't think I would ever see it that way. I'd see it as my Kindle endorsing Amazon. I'd fully expect to see something encouraging me to buy from B&N on a Nook. This doesn't surprise me, I expect Amazon to track what I'm doing. That's how all their recommendation stuff works. It should probably be disclosed (and maybe it is in some fine print somewhere), but it seems like an OK tradeoff to me. The "You're about to lose access to this, would you like to just buy it?" link seems like a very useful feature.
A question I'd rather have asked is "Does the library make money when someone buys the book"? How is the buy link that shows up on a library lend different from some other Amazon Associate directing me to the book? My local library should get a tiny referral fee if someone buys a book after borrowing it.
This thread seems to prove that most people think public libraries already track what you've been reading (even though that's apparently not correct), so for most people this isn't a loss since they didn't think they had that security in the first place.

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Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.

Librarian impotently nerd-rages at clueless masses by GameboyRMH · 2011-10-20 06:27 · Score: 1

I think I know which profession to look for women in, we'll get along just fine!

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"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel

Re:Poor Libraries by 0123456 · 2011-10-20 06:28 · Score: 2

Kids go through scads of books, I wouldn't want to keep them all.

I used to buy a lot of books, but then I had to pack them all into boxes to move across the Atlantic and realised that borrowing them made far more sense when it was something I wasn't likely to read multiple times.

Of course e-books make storage much less of a problem.

Exactly, and as anyone who's seen Seinfeld by unassimilatible · 2011-10-20 06:28 · Score: 1

can attest, those library cops can track you down decades later.

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Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you

Re:Exactly, and as anyone who's seen Seinfeld by spire3661 · 2011-10-20 06:48 · Score: 1

Knew it was Seinfeld even before i clicked the link....

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Good-bye
Re:Exactly, and as anyone who's seen Seinfeld by WillDraven · 2011-10-21 04:15 · Score: 1

Because it said so in the first half of the sentence (which just happened to be in the comment's title for some reason)? ;-)

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This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.

Stand up for the library by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:29 · Score: 1

The inconsistency in the Slashdot ethos about information is stunning. The library is THE PLACE that has kept information free in American society and when a librarian stands up for everyone in trying to a) protect privacy and b) give people access to information without bias, y'all complain?

Where else can you, within current copyright law, read an entire book for free? Get it sent to your local library? Read an eBook for free? Take your kids and let them read and play in a special area for them? Take those books home, for free?

Libraries are a bastion for the freedom of information in a society with umpteen million commercial pressures to suppress it. These librarians are the shit.

What's she afraid of? by retroworks · 2011-10-20 06:30 · Score: 1

If I agree with her, and her library has a copy of the book I want, I will read it in hard copy. If I disagree with her, I will resent that she is advocating for all libraries to take this choice from me... Even when they don't HAVE a copy of the book I want to read in hard copy.

Actually, this is the only Kindle program I really like. Participating libraries can provide something they may not HAVE a copy of (saving small libraries). And if they DO have the hard paper copy, I'd probably prefer it anyway, so what's the harm?

If multiple people read a book, the positive environmental impact of reuse offsets the cost of printing, and beats the Kindle. But if it's an obscure book that only I want to read, it's better for me to read it on a borrowed Kindle. Environmental cost of production of the laptop or Kindle is only offset after thousands of reads (obviously Amazon's goal), but the average years of use of new electronic gadgets makes that milestone, per Kindle, unlikely in a single-kindle-owner-user basis.

The librarian tirade seems to say this should not even be attempted on a trial basis. What does it amount to, 1% of library readership? If it increases the number of people who go to the library, she should dance a jig on Kindle's behalf.

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Gently reply

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 06:30 · Score: 1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library#Public_libraries

Free "Kindles for everyone" doesn't provide access to the poor, to children of those parents who neither care nor have income to spare, nor affordable access to very expensive reference materials which even people of economic means use infrequently enough to not warrant actual purchase, to mention a few genuine benefits of a public library.

I am happy for those who can consume as many books as they want (at least as much as it keeps the price down for those who can't), but consumption isn't anything particularly of merit, in and of itself.

Libraries are trying to find relevance in an internet age. I don't necessary agree with all of the choices, but I'm not thoughtless enough to condemn the whole system.

Library card by Murdoch5 · 2011-10-20 06:31 · Score: 1

By scanning my library card a program will retrieve all the books I've checked out from a server. They don't tell me where the server is and if I can get access to it to monitor how my information is being treated. The library has a ton of advertisements in it for books and newspapers and more. I'm really confused what her point is, all the kindle has done is shrunken down the library into a hand held model, everything this library is complaining about happens in the library system. I think she's just worried of losing a job because a little embedded system can do her job more effectively.

Re:Library card by BZ · 2011-10-20 16:15 · Score: 1

That sort of thing absolutely does not happen in most library systems. I'm sorry to hear it's happening in yours... Where is that, if I might ask?
Re:Library card by Murdoch5 · 2011-10-20 23:40 · Score: 1

I'll generalize to Ontario Canada, I know I've seen the list of rented books dump on the screen when my library card got scanned. It's doesn't bother me because I'm not really giving up any right by having my librarian see what I've been reading.
Re:Library card by BZ · 2011-10-20 23:51 · Score: 1

Ah, maybe this is a matter of different mores in different countries? In the US, at least, librarians take not keeping this sort of history around very seriously in general.
As for not giving up any rights.... "I've got nothing to hide" at its finest.
Re:Library card by Murdoch5 · 2011-10-21 01:56 · Score: 1

I wonder why it's so serious, I really could care less if my librarian wants to use what I've checked out to suggest new books or even target advertising. Exactly like you say, I've got nothing to hide so use it.
Re:Library card by BZ · 2011-10-21 03:21 · Score: 1

The point is that if your librarian has that data then your government can subpoena it. And there is a long history of governments using such data in pernicious ways (e.g. "blacklist anyone who has checked out the Communist Manifesto from employment").
For the rest, I suggest googling the phrase "I've got nothing to hide" and doing some reading....
Re:Library card by Murdoch5 · 2011-10-21 03:34 · Score: 1

Personally, I don't believe overly in privacy. The fact I'm on the net in the first place is enough of a reason to just be honest with my self that all my info is available for anyone who wants it. If your really worried about your freedoms then you can't be on the internet, you can't have credit cards, forget having a phone, you can't drive a car and etc... etc... etc... Everything you do in today's society is track-able and traceable. No matter how much a fuss you want to start it wont solve anything. Dealing with the fact that your government or even you neighbor can know everything about it just a healthy reality.

So really my library knowing what books I checked out is completely nothing to worry about, Infact my favorite books are computer book and electronic engineering books. I love to eat Sushi and my first name is Andrew and I'm 6 feet tall. There, now I've put information public and really is anything going to happen from it, NO.

Please can think what they want but privacy is a dead concept, just live your life and deal with it.
Re:Library card by Murdoch5 · 2011-10-21 03:37 · Score: 1

People, not please.

Re:Poor Libraries by Oswald+McWeany · 2011-10-20 06:31 · Score: 2

Until I got my kindle- I used the library all the time!

I use my kindle and download free books all the time (I use gutenburg instead of amazon- even if amazon has it for free).

The main problem with the library is that I don't always have time to read books- and frequently ran out of time to read a book- and renewing is such a hassle.

Whereas, reading the free books means I'm limited to older books- there are tonnes of older books I've always wanted to read that I never got around to... so I'm still reading books I always wanted to.

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"That's the way to do it" - Punch

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Oxford_Comma_Lover · 2011-10-20 06:32 · Score: 1

True, local booksellers have a legitimate grievance, and one that is much more problematic with amazon than it was when it was only the publishers who were doing it and is much more problematic when people can buy from amazon immediately than when there was mail order.

But that difference is one of degree--an important difference of degree, I grant, and one which should be considered carefully, but still not a fundamental change of policy, when you think about it. Because books *Always* advertise. Sometimes de minimis by just having their imprint on them, but more frequently by listing other books by the author, and historically it was not uncommon to see order forms.

The double negative was there because it was in response to a negative. There was a complaint that it was inconsistent, so the double negative says not "it's consistent" but "it does not seem inconsistent," since it's disagreeing with the conclusion rather than undermining the conclusion. One indicates only that another conclusion is correct, whereas one indicates that that conclusion was wrong. The distinction may have little utility if "consistency" is considered in binary terms, aside from that it also says "they're wrong" rather than just "we're right and here's why." But on occasion the distinction matters, so it's not one I worry about unless I'm trying to be especially clear, as to a young child or a politician.

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-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!

Re:Poor Libraries by geekoid · 2011-10-20 06:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

Almost every week.
My kids are avid readers, so during the summer they check out about 8 books a week.

It' also has a good movie selection, and a game selection. It has teen specific activities, literacy programs, ESL programs, public space for meetings... and a coffee shop. Sadly they won't let me check out coffee~

Libraries are very relevant. I suggest you look at the features of your local library.

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The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Librarians Rock by eepok · 2011-10-20 06:37 · Score: 1

They don't mess around.

Talking too loudly? SHHHH!
Demanding the records of a librarian patron? STFU!

Re:Librarians Rock by Nanosphere · 2011-10-20 06:46 · Score: 1

Optimus Prime was a librarian before the war. Now, give me your face.

Re:Poor Libraries by Obfuscant · 2011-10-20 06:37 · Score: 1

i go once a year and it's always full. people too cheap to pay for internet and asian kids.

Yeah, if you are too cheap to pay for an asian kid, you shouldn't have one. After all, what's he going to do after school if you can't afford internet for him to surf?

Al Franken said it best by Quila · 2011-10-20 06:39 · Score: 1

Rush Limbaugh's fact checker has the easiest job in the world.

Not that I like much about Franken's poltics either, but he is a pretty good comedian.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by Ruprecht+the+Monkeyb · 2011-10-20 06:41 · Score: 1

Posting a semi-releveant Wikipedia article isn't much of a counter. The Kindle is a delivery mechanism. I can already check books out of the local library on it without ever spending another $1 at Amazon. But the selection sucks, because instead of buying digital copies that will never wear out, and will never be returned late, won't be unavailable because the only copy is at branch X instead of Branch Y,etc, they're buying dead tree versions. Digital distribution could dramaticallt expand a library's reach with the same resources.

Security rule #2: by EuclideanSilence · 2011-10-20 06:43 · Score: 1

Never assume the owner of the medium you are using can't access your information on it. The phone company can hear your phone calls. Your ISP can monitor your traffic. Your email server can read your email. Your game server can read your private chats. Youtube can read your private youtube messages. Forum owners can read private forum messages.

And yes, corporations/companies/individuals know your history of buying from them.

The only way to avoid it is to one day need that information; then it probably can't be found.

Re:Security rule #2: by SuiteSisterMary · 2011-10-20 07:53 · Score: 1

And your library has a record of all the books checked out under your account.

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Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by MightyMartian · 2011-10-20 06:45 · Score: 1

Posts like that make me hope the poster gets a really horrific disease that doesn't kill him right away, but makes him linger. I wouldn't cross the street to piss on that poster if he was on fire.

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The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.

my library keeps the whole list by peter303 · 2011-10-20 06:55 · Score: 1

I can call it up. I forgot i had read some of those books.

Re:my library keeps the whole list by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 08:42 · Score: 1

In most cases, if your library keeps a running record of your checkout history, it's an opt-in feature that must be activated by the patron. The library I work for uses a checkout system by Innovative Interfaces (one of the Big Three catalog vendors) that offers this feature. All your records are deleted unless you turn this feature on. Once it's on, you can delete any individual item from your history list, or opt back out of the service.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by hedwards · 2011-10-20 06:57 · Score: 1

We're not that far away from a time when ebooks are cheap enough for libraries to actually lend out. Borrowing books is only one facet of a library's usefulness, around here they have free classes, access to computers, not to mention librarians that can find all sorts of information that one has a hard time finding on ones own.

Right now a Kindle, for instance, is $79 new, DVDs and some of the more expensive books can be that much or more to replace.

In other words, even with the books replaced by electronic copies, having physical locations is still something of value to the community. But then again, folks around here use the libraries more than anywhere else in the US most years, so I could be overestimating the utility a bit.

Re:Poor Libraries by bberens · 2011-10-20 06:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

My daughter is 4 and she loves going to the library and picking out books to read. I occasionally get a library book myself but never off the shelf, I register online and they deliver it directly to my house. I can return it to any library in my county. They also have a wide selection of movies and television series that my wife occasionally checks out, yet another "aid" in the movement to ditch cable on top of Netflix and Hulu.

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Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com

Re:Poor Libraries by microTodd · 2011-10-20 07:03 · Score: 1

I use my local library all the time. Just read Danielewski's latest. And the new Ice and Fire (didn't want to pay $30 for a new hardcover) My wife uses it all the time, she just finished reading all three Hunger Games. My kids use it WAY more than I do (two kids, 5 books each, every other week). And there's always at least one or two other people in line to check out books when I go to check mine out.

To say nothing of all the people using the internet PCs in there. And the storytime for the kids. And the DVDs. And the music CDs. And the cubicles where I see high school kids doing homework.

But my library is awesome. I can search the catalog from online and reserve books and they'll hold them at the desk. And I can search other libraries' catalogs and they'll move the books to my library for me. Awesome.

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"You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design

Re:Poor Libraries by justforgetme · 2011-10-20 07:10 · Score: 1

I get the logistics issue but just barely. I don't think that books would be a trouble when moving, no matter how many of them you have or how far you go (planet outbound excluded). Usually when you move far away the one time extra k you will pay for extra container space won't matter, and if you aren't moving enough to be in the >1000$ range of shipping costs then you obviously aren't moving enough or are moving only for a small period of time (lets say less 10 years). In the last case you obviously can do away with 95% of your literature and keep only the relevant ones. Also moving away indefinitely is a good opportunity to gift books, that way people get a prolonged parting gift experience (granted they actually read the book you gave them).

On the ebook thing...
I buy a lot of books, I have tried going digital a couple of times and it sucks in so many levels I don't even want to get started. The show stopper, whatsoever, remains one thing: When you buy digital you end up with a copy of nothing (yeah that still is pretty much nothing).

Digital books will only work (from my perspective at least) only when retailers go the indie vinyl route where the digital copy is just an addon to the physical purchase.

</offtopic>
</rant>
</old_fart>

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-- no sig today

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by iisan7 · 2011-10-20 07:13 · Score: 1

Having the library books available boosts the device's usefulness = more sales. That should be enough reason.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Synerg1y · 2011-10-20 07:15 · Score: 1

This would qualify as a +1 troll post for the comments its brought out from people. But seriously, that may vary by city, but at least the libraries I know of are close to schools and students go there to study, especially when the home environment doesn't provide the proper resources. As to their future as brick and mortar book givers, lucky they picked up on computers and wifi when they did, I see more wifi users there than readers. The movie and music selections greatly vary, but that's a + too.

Oh no .... you get to give something away for free by brainchill · 2011-10-20 07:24 · Score: 1

You get to give something away for free instead of paying for books and amazon gets a little advertisement .... big deal. And if this spins out of control and people follow these links and BUY BOOKS then it keeps their lust for reading alive and keeps people interested in even having libraries at all. As for keeping lists of books that were checked out ... my county library does this unless you specifically check a box on your account that you want them not to. I think you'll find that this is common practice in many libraries today.

Re:Librarian impotently nerd-rages at clueless mas by i.r.id10t · 2011-10-20 07:25 · Score: 1

Librarians are the proto-geeks, proto-DBAs, and proto-sysadmins.

Not to mention most are female, quite a few single, and quite a few good looking. Heck, there is even a subset where all 3 attributes apply!

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos

Re:Poor Libraries by i.r.id10t · 2011-10-20 07:28 · Score: 1

Pretty sure they don't want the coffee back after you've finished it ...

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Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by sdguero · 2011-10-20 07:32 · Score: 2

Libraries lend DVDs that have advertisements for other movies etc on them. If I owned a blockbuster I'd be pissed about that too. Just playing devil's advocate...

Re:Poor Libraries by mikestew · 2011-10-20 07:32 · Score: 1

My wife, at least once this week (DVDs and books). Me, once this week and probably tomorrow (to get out of the home office for a bit, and maybe a book). Pick any random day at any random time the Redmond, WA King County Library is open, and the parking lot will be a minimum of half full. Weekends or after work/school it's probably close to full.

That's not counting the eBooks that don't involve going to the b&m library. Overdrive worked, but was generally a PITA. The Amazon setup, all other complaints aside, was surprisingly low-friction. If I like the book and might reference it again, Amazon has a convenient "buy" button when going to check it back in (yes, yes, evil corporate bastards).

In summary, it looks like plenty of people use our local library. I don't know why anyone that consumes books, CDs, or DVDs wouldn't at least pop in to see what it's about.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by Hatta · 2011-10-20 07:34 · Score: 1

Poorly managed and funded libraries will obviously be irrelevant. Well funded and managed libraries will never become irrelevant. The problem is that our country doesn't value education and sharing anymore. The decline of our library system tells us nothing about libraries, but it speaks volumes about our country.

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Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!

Recommendations from Amazon by CanHasDIY · 2011-10-20 07:37 · Score: 1

We noticed you recently checked out a copy of The Anarchists Cook Book;

You May Also Be Interested In: A lengthy term as a political prisoner.

Others are Reading: The Writing on the Wall.

--
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by bberens · 2011-10-20 07:39 · Score: 1

Digital distribution could dramaticallt expand a library's reach with the same resources.

Not when there's no competition in the distribution networks.

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Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by CCurzon · 2011-10-20 07:42 · Score: 1

instead of buying digital copies that will never wear out

That isn't always the case. According to http://www.libraryjournal.com/lj/home/889452-264/harpercollins_puts_26_loan_cap.html.csp there is at least one publisher who will put a limit on the number of times a book can be borrowed. After a year to a year and a half, depending on the loan length, the book is no longer available to anyone and has to be repurchased. I have seen physical books that are a good deal older than a year and all they need is a bit of tape on the corners and spine and they're quite usable. Granted if that expiry was removed the ebooks would easily outlast any physical book, but even though the technology is there, society (at least some parts) is not.

Um, what? by roc97007 · 2011-10-20 07:47 · Score: 1

> In our greedy attempt to get content into our users' hands

Um, wait I have this. Greedy attempt... get content in other's hands... greedy... others... greedy, ... access to content for others... greedy...

I got nuthin'. Can someone help me on this?

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.

Re:Um, what? by roc97007 · 2011-10-21 05:37 · Score: 1

Sarcasm. I can believe that. It's a traditional problem; tones of voice don't work in print.

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Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by lgw · 2011-10-20 07:47 · Score: 1

Posts like this make me miss the GNAA. Todays trolls are a weak, struggling, inferior strain - I'm embarassed for their feeble efforts. It's sad, really.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by Ruprecht+the+Monkeyb · 2011-10-20 07:53 · Score: 1

I agree that there's a reason we have free public libraries. I'm not suggesting that the need for free public libraries goes away. I'm suggesting that what the need for a physical presence and tangible books is going the way of the vinyl LP and the record store.

Re:Poor Libraries by lgw · 2011-10-20 07:55 · Score: 1

I have over a ton of books. Moving them cross country ain't cheap - certainly more than $1 a book (mostly hardbacks). I make an effort these days to get rid of books I don't think I'll read again.

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Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

Re:Poor Libraries by Rising+Ape · 2011-10-20 08:10 · Score: 1

I buy a lot of books, I have tried going digital a couple of times and it sucks in so many levels I don't even want to get started. The show stopper, whatsoever, remains one thing: When you buy digital you end up with a copy of nothing (yeah that still is pretty much nothing).

If the information is nothing, why bother buying a book when you can just buy a box of paper for a much lower price?

Re:Poor Libraries by amliebsch · 2011-10-20 08:23 · Score: 1

I just don't see the downside.

It's unsanitary.

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If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by LifesABeach · 2011-10-20 08:32 · Score: 1

Pissed? Naw, with businesses advertising in our government run operations, at tax payers expense, consider the possibilities:
1. Getting a coupon with your tax return for a discount on Suppositories?
2. Or when you get a speeding ticket, the officer also hands you a coupon for a free eye exam at Lens Crafters...
3. Before sentencing, a convicted pedophile, and everyone else must listen to a 30 minute infomercial for Ronald MacDonald House.
4. During an arrest, the suspect, bent over the hood of a car is given a coupon for Jet Wax.
5. And just before the President gives his State of the Union speech, he gives a plug for Princess Curse Lines

"Is this a great country or what!" - Bill Blazejowski, 1982

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Anonymous Coward · 2011-10-20 08:33 · Score: 1

Libraries lend DVDs that have advertisements for other movies etc on them. If I owned a blockbuster I'd be pissed about that too. Just playing devil's advocate...

There's an important difference between advertising other books in books, or other films on DVD jackets, and advertisements for e-books on the Amazon kindle. Amazon's kindle advertisements present a closed system, owned by a single entity. Yes, there are other e-book readers, but they're practically mutually exclusive- if you already own a kindle, you're unlikely to also own some other reader. This is a categorically different case than books or DVDs- even if you rent a DVD from your library, are compelled because of its advertisements to seek out another DVD, they can do so at that library, or at the local blockbuster, or whatever is convenient.
The amazon kindle locks you, and your money, into a system.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by morethanapapercert · 2011-10-20 08:43 · Score: 1

You're right about older works of fiction often having order forms in the back of them for more by the same author(s) or works from other writers in the same genre. But I seem to recall that this was only in the paperback and digest formats, especially for book club editions. Hard covers, anthologies and what are called trade paperbacks usually didn't have them. For more popular titles, publishers would often print a library edition, paperback or trade paperback in size, but sewn, not perfect bound and with a hard cover.

For what it's worth, as I recall the library system in Toronto didn't care about those in-book ads, but the library system down in the Fort Erie area did, their books had a stamp to indicate that they were library property on one of the flyleaves. If the book had an ad page, that was where they stuck the card pocket, and if there were more ad pages, they stamped all of them with the library name, rendering both page and stamp almost illegible.

Thus, I think you find that whether a library cares about such ads is somewhat variable. And I suspect that some of those libraries that don't object to them rationalise it as promoting further book consumption as a good principle. The problem with Amazon ads in e-books would be that these ads probably would not be limited to just offering more works by same author or in the same genre. Amazon advertises all sorts of consumer products on their website, I'd imagine that they would be pretty tempted to do the same in the e-books, if they are not already doing so.

If I were in charge of a municipal or other large library system and wanted to do business with Amazon for it's e-books, here's what I would require from them in order for me to accept the addition of ads in the e-books. 1)Ads only at the rear of the book. no in-line ads 2) colour ads only in print works that include colour art 3) moving/video ads attached only to content that itself is video/moving images (a general principle here is that you are merely providing information that the patron would find useful, NOT attempting to sell to him in the usual attention grabbing way we usually see things being marketed in digital formats. 4) absolutely NO tracking of the borrowers in any way, not even as anonymous data for the recommendation engine. Use the website data for that, not the library patrons. This would also include recording metrics such as length of time spent reading, how long it was loaned out and so on. 5) The content is not tied to proprietary devices. A library owns books for incredibly long times compared to consumers. I don't want to lose content because a company went under or the hardware became obsolete. I also don't want the tax money I would be responsible for being used to subsidise one company. I'd also like it if patrons could also bring their own device. 6) Ads are for similar content only. You can advertise other recipe books in the back of a recipe book, but not BBQ's, kitchen utensils, aprons and so on. 7) No "click here to buy" stuff. At most, I can accept a non hyperlink reference to an authors merchandise page. There are some very good authors out there, especially comic artists who make their real living from the t-shirts, mugs and bumperstickers based on their art. Since the market value of the "printed" work is fast falling to zero, I have no objection to authors finding other revenue sources. On the other hand, I'm running a library, not a bookstore. My patrons are not a captive market for some company to mine for revenue. 8) advertise a wide range of books, not just the ones published by the same author and publisher as is seen in the physical books. I'm a science fiction fan, but I don't buy from just one publisher, I might buy similar stuff by any number of publishing houses. 9) Absolutely, positively NO filtering, censoring or banning of books except for titles that I or my gov't tell you cannot be published or distributed in my country. I don't care if the United Sates has seen fit to ban X or Y works. They are not banned here, so should be made

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Re:Poor Libraries by justforgetme · 2011-10-20 08:57 · Score: 1

As I said, why would you need to move them cross country? Anyway, I believe in pushing the book you won't need again back into the stream, may it be a library, school, flee market or just plain acquaintances.

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Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by techfun · 2011-10-20 09:03 · Score: 1

Can't find the data now, but sometime last year a Dept. of Labor report stated that libraries are the single largest pool of 'Job Centers' in the USA and the source of wireless internet access for something like 25x the number served by Starbucks.

Re:Poor Libraries by Rising+Ape · 2011-10-20 09:06 · Score: 1

So what was your point? You aren't buying nothing with ebooks, you're buying information.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Synerg1y · 2011-10-20 09:35 · Score: 1

Lol, think about it, you don't have a job, and you can't afford internet, but nobody's too far away from a library typically to justify gas vs internet cost. The gas is always cheaper. I know of most of the OP while researching jobs at a library when i was younger lol, it's also a great environment for honing in on your job search.

"Artistic" Apple users tend to populate Starbucks wifi channels, I acknowledge that the difference may be 25x, but it should be much greater imo, more ppl need to flock to the library, less to the starbucks.

Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by Joreallean · 2011-10-20 11:01 · Score: 1

I'm sorry I'm tired of this money is fungible BS. I pay taxes, I do NOT directly fund the library. When I give my money to the government as taxes, I trust that they as an entity will use the money for the benefit of the COMMUNITY not me. So I don't get to say where the money is or is not spent other than to elect my officials.

This is the exact same thing as the bank not being able to tell you that you can't go out and spend all your money on drugs because you still owe them $3000 on your loan. Once the money is no longer in your hands, it is no longer your choice where it gets spent.

The library's mandate is, more than likely, to provide a free, open, public source of knowledge and reading. The source of those materials is up to the library to decide to provide. That may be buying from a local bookseller, it could be from buying from Amazon, or it could be a lending system that is partnered with Amazon and therefore is subsidized by that advertising. The Library has NO, ZERO, ZILCH requirement to answer to every tax paying citizen as to its actions. This may be a democracy or whatever you technically want to call it, but one thing it does not have is a mandate for every government entity to answer to every tax paying citizen. If you have a problem with how tax money is being spent take it up with your representation given to you by the constitution, your elected officials.

What we store. by alexp206 · 2011-10-20 12:28 · Score: 1

I work in a college Library. Yes our system tracks what you CURRENTLY have out, that's obviously needed. It does not store a history of what you've had once those books are returned. However, one thing it does store is the last patron to have a book. This is needed, for example, in case a book comes back damaged and it's not caught on check-in. It's then possible to create a list of books where that person is the last patron to have them, but depending on turn over, this list could be quite short.

Re:Not with a bang, but with a whisper... by darnkitten · 2011-10-20 12:49 · Score: 1

Prattlings from a worker in yet another doomed profession. I have several friends who work at libraries, and I'm constantly amazed at their delusions of relevance. More and more money spent acquiring multiple copies of best sellers rather than expanding the breadth of the library. Money wasted on video games and popular DVDs. A single years' budget could buy everyone in my city one of the subsidized Kindles. Lease the real estate to purchase e-books for lending. Instead, they're expanding the number of libraries but keeping the budget the same, so it'll mean more of the pie going for facilities and salaries and less on content.

Might I suggest you run for or seek an appointment to your library's Board of Trustees?

We in the library field need the input in your demographic, as Library Boards tend to skew towards traditionalists, many of whom have trouble navigating the complexities of the changing needs of the public; and movers-and-shakers, who are more concerned with image and fundraising than the everyday concerns of patron counts and checkouts.

On the Board, you would not only get an inside view of why the library does what it does and the constraints under which it operates; you would have a real say in policy and implementation, which could steer the library in the direction it needs for survival. You have good insights, and ones that need to be heard, but unless you get yourself into a position to say it effectively, nothing will change.

It would look good on your CV, too. :)

Sorry, libraries? what are those? by Nyder · 2011-10-20 16:25 · Score: 1

That is what your little kids will be saying in a few years.

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Re:Poor Libraries by justforgetme · 2011-10-20 16:46 · Score: 1

The point is not about the information in the sense of the book's content but in the sense of the file you buy. The file you get when paying for an ebook from amazon is one that tries to self regulate its distribution, which if you are here you understand is plain wrong.

The only thing you get when buying an ebook from a commercial vendor is lock in and a receipt for the rights you just lost (eg: the right to treat as you wish, the objects you own). ;lt&/rant>

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Re:Poor Libraries by justforgetme · 2011-10-20 16:48 · Score: 1

;lt&/rant>

Haha..
HTML: fail!!!

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Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by m50d · 2011-10-20 19:10 · Score: 1

Many books have an order form in the back for books from the same publisher, only giving you the chance to buy it from them. And defeating amazon's lock-in would be simple - just sell a non-drm ebook, the way music sites eventually figured out to do if they wanted to sell music for the ipod.

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Re:Poor Libraries by edumacator · 2011-10-20 23:47 · Score: 2

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand that $10 a month is a lot of money for some people.

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Re:So amazon is supposed to just not make money? by drjuggler · 2011-10-21 03:02 · Score: 1

Bad analogy. It's equivalent to having ads for Netflix displayed in the DVD section.

Re:Poor Libraries by poofmeisterp · 2011-10-31 03:22 · Score: 1

i go once a year and it's always full. people too cheap to pay for internet and asian kids

in this day when internet is $10 a month i can't understand how anyone would want to use it at the library

Because people can't fucking adapt.

I'll keep my 'net. When it goes away or becomes unusable, I'll head right back to the library. Adaptation: not that difficult. Unless you're too tied to social rules and games in life to focus on anything else but looks and "coolness". I digress.

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