Mastercard, Visa To Help Target Ads

New submitter ThatsMyNick writes "The two largest credit-card networks, Visa Inc. and MasterCard Inc., are pushing into a new business: using what they know about people's credit-card purchases for targeting them with ads online. 'A MasterCard document obtained by the Journal outlines some of the company's plans, which included linking Web users with purchases. According to document, the credit card provider said it believes "you are what you buy." ... Visa is planning a similar service, which would aggregate its customers' purchase history into segments, including location, to make ads more effective at appealing to people in a respective area.'"

Comments

If you have nothing to hide

[Colin Smith]

You have nothing to fear.
 

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anrego]

Personally they could post a list of all my visa purchases on a public website with my name right at the top and I wouldn't care.. but I can still understand why other people get upset about this kinda stuff.

Some people do have (perfectly legal) things they want to hide for whatever social or practical reasons.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[SirGarlon]

Is there anyone who has nothing to hide?

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Hazel Bergeron]

Rather than hiding behind the fact that they probably won't do that, why don't you put your money log where your mouth is and post a history of all your credit card purchases in response to this post? Include times and locations.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Kookus]

Dude, it looks like you just bought a diamond ring! Congratulations on getting married!!!
...

Oh, you haven't proposed yet? Well, good luck!

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[vlm]

Rather than hiding behind the fact that they probably won't do that, why don't you put your money log where your mouth is and post a history of all your credit card purchases in response to this post? Include times and locations.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of your specific spat or privacy terror, but isn't there an extremely practical problem now that MC and Visa can be used to pay medical bills, vs HIPPA and all that?

I'm sure they can figure out which billers to filter out, but it does bring up the point that its not just a tinfoil hat thing but a possible HIPPA legal violation.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh you are already married!!! Perhaps you'd like a Motel 6 discount.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Kilrah_il]

Actually, I partially agree with your sentiment. I worry more about privacy on the personal level and not on the corporate, world-spanning level. To clarify:
I don't give a rat's ass what Visa knows about me, and what Google collects about my searches and what info they get from it. Corporations want to spend millions of $$$ to harvest all my online activities and send me ads in my mail or on a site I visit? Let them have their fun. I don't give a damn. May they grow old and die chocking on their money, for all I care.
For me privacy is that only people I know can link my name to what I do (job, hobbies, friends, purchases, etc.). On this site, if you go through all my posts you can only find out which country I live in, my job and 1-2 of my hobbies, that's all. That's privacy. If some company aggregates all my actions on-line (or credit card purchases) in one big file, I don't mind; it's not like it's on some big bulletin board for my grandma to find.

Oh, and BTW, for years now I get ads and coupons in my monthly CC statement, usually targeted to stuff I buy, how is it different from what the summary mentions?

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[vlm]

Its a lot simpler to post a link to your blippy profile

There are people who volunteer for this. Financial equivalent of exhibitionism, or conspicuous consumption carried out to its logical conclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blippy

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

Just me and my monkey...

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[bjdevil66]

I hope you're joking 'cause in this day and age some people actually believe that tripe.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Synerg1y]

In the not so distant future...

I can see MC and Visa getting sued for targeting somebody with a sex shop ad on a PG13 website in front of their family.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[TheGratefulNet]

yeah, next thing you'll tell me that *you* buried paul.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Synerg1y]

Took years for Amazon to figure out how to do that ;)

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[TubeSteak]

If you have nothing to hide

Funny how that concept got left out of the Consitution or any of the debates, letters, or treatises that shaped it.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[tmosley]

This guy sure loves porno!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbMuEjASwzg

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how this has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution. Or did it start applying to private companies recently?

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Hope Thelps]

Some people do have (perfectly legal) things they want to hide for whatever social or practical reasons.

Some of us have 'things we want to hide' (or what we would cause 'a desire for privacy') for no social or practical reason, and find it weird that anyone would think that needs a justification.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[cayenne8]

Yep....

Yet another reason to try to go more cash only....

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Luckyo]

It's a good thing that everyone something to hide, isn't it?

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[cayenne8]

yeah, next thing you'll tell me that *you* buried paul.

No...but the walrus was Paul....

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anrego]

Time and location I'd want to keep secret for largely practical reasons.

Specific restaurants I'd probably not care but I can see if someone was trying to avoid someone else how this may be an issue.

Other than that though, would be pretty damn boring. You'd find out I spend a lot on computer junk and play guitar .. I actually gave a short list later in this thread.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anrego]

I agree with this too.

I think people do have a right to privacy. The fact that I'm not overly concerned with privacy (at least not on spending habits) doesn't mean I don't recognize that people have the right to say "I don't want you to know that" if for absolutely no other reason than they don't want you to.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[sconeu]

In addition, what does PCI have to say about this?

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[sconeu]

Except in Louisiana

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[rtaylor]

You would have to start at nudist colony's. Most people hide themselves.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[makubesu]

If you have nothing to see (ad-block) you have nothing to fear.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Forbman]

You do know that the government can dragnet through corporate data easily enough w/o warrant or order, though, right? And that this aggregated, personalized data will be made available to other companies, like...oh...insurance companies. Your spending history will affect your rates with them, much like your credit history already can do...

One of these days, it will become a level of fraud for you to claim a non-smoker discount on your health insurance but the insurance company, through your spending data, discovers you have a history of buying tobacco products, and assumes that you're the one it all has been bought for and consumed by... It won't be simple enough to insure you at a higher rate or riskier bucket...

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[TubeSteak]

Funny how this has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution. Or did it start applying to private companies recently?

The Constitution applies to private companies in a thousand and one ways.

How about you try doing this: Start a private business and hang up a sign that says "No Niggers Allowed"
See how long your idea that the Constitution doesn't apply to private companies will hold up against the 14th Amendment.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Bucky24]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, "

Personally I think this applies to data about one's self but I do not know if the law agrees.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Eponymous Hero]

are you high? or just really naive?

For me privacy is that only people I know can link my name to what I do (job, hobbies, friends, purchases, etc.).

and yeah, being able to buy your purchase history will allow me to link your name to purchases with datetime and location, which i can then use to infer your friends, which i can then use to infer your job and hobbies.... but i'll probably have other uses for that info than the short list of things you're worried about.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Stan92057]

Its not that we want to hide anything,we just feel its none of anyone business and that is a big difference then having something to hide

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Anonymous Coward]

Here! Maybe you should read this book http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/dsolove/Nothing-to-Hide/index.html. It debunks the nothing to hide mantra...

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[Klync]

I'm going to leave the rest of your comment aside (my opinion is pretty much the opposite, but we're all entitled to our own), and answer this one:

for years now I get ads and coupons in my monthly CC statement, usually targeted to stuff I buy, how is it different from what the summary mentions?

The difference is that, in the case you mention, the advertiser hands over their ad copy, along with a profile of their target demographic, and says to Visa, find the 200,000 of your customers (or whatever #) that most closely match *this* profile, and send them this ad. But, this new plan sounds more to me (although the details aren't precisely discussed in the articles) that Visa will run a service that lets advertisers sign up and repeatedly query "does this customer match this profile?"

In the first case, Visa is giving you the advertiser's info; in the second case, Visa is giving the advertiser your info.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[GuB-42]

If don't have anything to hide about my credit card purchases. However, I don't want them to make money with my data unless I get some kind of compensation. Credit cards aren't free, I shouldn't be the product being sold.

Re:If you have nothing to hide

[cayenne8]

Yeah..I saw that the other day.

That's gonna get repealed REALLY fast I'm thinking...

Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello cash!

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Anrego]

In an envelope to some online store?

Biggest thing keeping me tied to visa is online shopping..

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[h4rr4r]

Can't you buy VISA/MASTERCARD gift cards with cash and use those? I guess they could get the name and address from the online store though.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Anrego]

You have to "activate" those by providing your name and address in order to use them at said online stores, so doesn't do much good.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[maxwell demon]

Well, here in Germany most online shops allow something called "Nachnahme" (I have no idea what it is called in English). Basically it means you pay to the postman on delivery. It costs something extra, but it has the big advantage that you don't pay before the product arrives.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[master5o1]

All the gift cards I've used require some sort of registration with a name. Okay, so I've only used two types of gift card and that's a terrible sample size.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Shikaku]

COD (charge on delivery)
This practice in America is mostly dead now though.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[h4rr4r]

Why not provide BS for that? Give them the address of a public park and the name of a famous actor.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[seandhi]

Here, they call it C.O.D. - Cash on Delivery. Not many places offer it anymore, although I hope to see its resurgence with MC and VISA doing what they're planning to do.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Collect (or Cash) on Delivery, according to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collect_on_delivery

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[TheGratefulNet]

the hell it is!

COD is one very effective way to deal with errant postmen. instead of dropping the box at your manager (apt buildings..) or neighbor or bushes, he MUST collect money for it.

in networking, we call that an ACK and it helps establish more reliability in the protocol.

works for postal guys, too ;)

even if you pay the bulk in check, still good to collect a dollar COD or some token amount so that it MUST be hand delivered.

neat trick, huh?. now, go enjoy your new postal balanced protocol exchange.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Anrego]

Unless you are planning on having it shipped to said famous actor at said park.. very few stores are going to send something to an address not matching the one on the card.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[GumphMaster]

Cash on delivery (COD) exists in Australia through Australia Post but I have always considered it prohibitively expensive. For example the current rate is $8.05 + postage to send the item, $11.30 + postage to return the payment to you, and $16.50 if the delivery cannot be made. It adds nearly $20 to the price of an item but does provide a small transit insurance. I have never heard of anybody using COD here.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[h4rr4r]

Since when?
I buy all kinds of stuff on amazon and have it shipped directly to friends and family for their birthdays and holidays. I have never had any trouble. I have even done this with one time purchases at random websites for gifts before when amazon did not have the item.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[cayenne8]

Very interesting...I actually thought COD was completely dead in the US.

Is this an option with amazon.com?

One drawback about it...generally (with me) there is no one home during the day when deliveries are made.

How do you get around that? Do you have a stay at home wife?

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[ravenspear]

He should rephrase. Most stores make you specify the billing address for the card and this is checked with AVS. If that matches, you can specify a different shipping address if you want to.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Forbman]

then prepaid visa, then.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[GameboyRMH]

Yep this is only going to make me use credit cards even less, if that's even possible.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Bucky24]

Well you could still put garbage for that, as long as you remembered what it was for entering later.

Re:Goodbye Visa & Mastercard!!

[Richard_at_work]

Quite a few online places won't ship to a different address on the first order with them as a security precaution - at least, this is the case in the UK.

Do not want

[Spy Handler]

I'm for small government and as much a libertarian as anyone here, but this is one of those times where the government needs to step in and put some regulation in place.

We need something similar to the do-not-call-list thingie they did a few years ago for telephone numbers, where you opt yourself in and you don't get hounded at home from telemarketers.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you, but the "do-not-call-list" does not work.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

The government needs to deregulate credit cards and banks. If there weren't so many regulations, it would be possible to create a competing credit card company which assured its users' privacy, had much lower fees (currently at least 1.5% for merchants), used proper cryptography, made credit card fraud impossible, and could even be completely anonymous.

The government would never allow such a thing, because the government is controlled by the banks that want to keep their oligopoly. For now, only huge entities with thousands of lawyers can run a credit card network.

Re:Do not want

[Anrego]

If they had this, and signing up excluded you from using a large number of websites.. would you still sign up?

Not a snide comment but a serious question. In cases like this, you are effectively trading your privacy for access to content. If you decline to provide your private information, it would seem reasonable for them to deny you service. There is a good argument that much of the great content on the internet isn't plastered in ads... but there is still a lot of good ad-supported content out there.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

And then one would grow large enough to buy the others, and you'd be left with one or two behemoths controlling it all, doing what they can to maximize profits, and crushing or buying up start-ups.

Re:Do not want

[Anrego]

Here in Canada, it actually made the problem worse.. because they distributed the list rather indiscriminately to everyone "so they'd know who not to call"... including people who not only ignored it but used it as a calling list.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you need a government solution? American Express or Discover could step-up and set themselves apart as the "private" credit card company that won't sell your data.

Re:Do not want

[0123456]

And then one would grow large enough to buy the others, and you'd be left with one or two behemoths controlling it all, doing what they can to maximize profits, and crushing or buying up start-ups.

Uh, no. That's what happens when you have regulations that prevent new competitors from entering a market by creating artificial barriers for new companies.

Big companies love regulation for that very reason; they can easily comply whereas small competitors can't. But useful idiots keep demanding that big goverment regulate big business and the big business keeps laughing all the way to the bank.

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

It seems like this sort of thing should be easy to avoid. Attach criminal penalties. The caller gets 1 hour in jail per minute on such calls, his direct boss gets 1 day per minute and the CEO gets 1 week per minute. I bet that would sort it right out.

Re:Do not want

[pixelpusher220]

Big companies love regulation that they create for that very reason

fixed that for you ;-)

Re:Do not want

[pixelpusher220]

It's a fair question. Mine would be, aren't these 2/3/4 companies basically monopolies and need to be regulated as such?

Of course I would call cell phone carriers defacto monopolies since there are only about 4 of them...funny how none of them allow tethering without a fee...

Re:Do not want

[vlm]

If I don't sign up to get blocked, but do use an ad blocker in firefox ... so I know that they know that I know they know, which means I don't care?

If they have private information that they can't use against me, then are they doing anything bad?

Re:Do not want

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Not a snide comment but a serious question. In cases like this, you are effectively trading your privacy for access to content.

I say that advertising killed micropayments. Advertisements have effectively filled the market need for micropayments, except that unlike a robust micropayment system, advertising comes with all kinds of extra baggage as the ad networks try to extract more and more value out of their systems. If enough people could opt-out of the ad networks that would create new demand for micropayments and we might actually see some progress on that front.

At least a guy can hope.

Re:Do not want

[agm]

Indeed. I don't need the government making my decisions for me. If I don't like what Visa are doing, then I'll stop using them.

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

Which is why most of that regulation does not apply to small players. Whole reams of regulation go out the window for privately owned companies, even more for those with less than 100 employees.

Sorry if the truth conflicts with your world view.

Re:Do not want

[snowraver1]

You forget that phone lines cross borders...

Re:Do not want

[TheGratefulNet]

for purchased mailing lists, they do tricks like this.

they will sell you one 'use' of the list. you can send to everyone there, once.

after that if you use it again, you have no idea who the fake one (or few) are and they are the test cases. if you hit those booby traps, the vendor knows you 'stole' an extra unpaid instance.

why not use that for the DNC? load it with 'triggers' and if the bastards call, throw them in the slammer! after taking ALL their assets (ie, treat them like drug criminals).

after a few catch on, the abuse will go to 0.0% very fast.

that is, IF we really want to solve this social plague. I really don't think we want that, though; the masters get their fees from this and we all just exist to serve our 1% masters (sorry, but I do support OWS).

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell do you need unsecured credit for daily life?
I'm 40+ years old, married with a kid, own my house & car and have NO CREDIT CARDS and NO DEBT except for my mortgage, which will be paid off early. I've NEVER had a credit card. There are times when it's a hassle (renting a car) but generally it's not a problem.
Just live within your means. In the long run you have to anyway, unless you want to leave debts for your kids.

Re:Do not want

[tmosley]

But that is all regulation. If they don't like it, they will fight it until it is changed or they are out of business.

Re:Do not want

[Cyberax]

And what are you going to do in Europe where AmEx is unusable except in airports and boutiques?

Building a world-spanning network is complex and expensive. And not because of monopolies but because it's HARD.

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

Because AMEX and Discover will not. If this makes money for VISA they will do it too. You will thus be stuck with this intrusion or without the ability to buy.

Re:Do not want

[tmosley]

Uh-huh, tell that to the guy who spent 9 months trying to deal with the bureaucracy to try to open up a winery with NO employees, and wound up having to abandon his ambition because he burned up his tiny nestegg that he managed to save through college.

That is to say, fuck you. Regulation is there and real. If it weren't, there would be a ton of companies competing with each other.

Re:Do not want

[Anrego]

I don't know how well micropayments would really work.

I mean, it would work for larger known sites.. sure. It's the dozen sites you plough through while looking for something that are the issue.

I don't mind paying for good content (and I do..) .. but I don't want to be paying for every site I quickly glance at either. Demo content doesn't work because the demo can often by very un-representative of what you get if you pay.

Re:Do not want

[maxwell demon]

"Hello, is here the military? We need you to invade Russia to catch that guy misusing the do-not-call list from there."

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

So do laws. Lots of treaties could have this added.

I would think the ICC should take charge and consider it a violation of human rights :)

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

citation needed

Any links?
How did he plan on having a winery with no employees. Did he think grapes bottled themselves?

Re:Do not want

[cayenne8]

I'm 40+ years old, married with a kid, own my house & car and have NO CREDIT CARDS and NO DEBT except for my mortgage, which will be paid off early. I've NEVER had a credit card. There are times when it's a hassle (renting a car) but generally it's not a problem. Just live within your means. In the long run you have to anyway, unless you want to leave debts for your kids.

How exactly do you buy things ONLINE?

Also, as far as I know...your children are not responsible or liable for your debts when you croak. They might not get as much of an inheritance, but the debt collector doesn't come for them when you take a dirt nap. That debt contract was only between you and the entity, not your heirs. (Unless there was a weird co-sign or something)

Re:Do not want

[agm]

Either a niche will open for an ethical credit card, or enough people will boycott credit cards to a degree that cause retailers to have to offer an alternative form of payment for online purchases. No state intervention required. Just market forces.

Re:Do not want

[agm]

If my personal privacy if important enough to me, then I won't willingly deal with a company that exposes it. If that's inconvenient for me, then so be it.

Re:Do not want

[Cyberax]

In a lot of places (car rent, parkings, etc.) you simply can not pay cash. So the answer is: "make these companies respect your privacy".

A non-commercial global company would have been the best answer. But it's not going to happen, alas.

Re:Do not want

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I don't want to be paying for every site I quickly glance at either.

You are now, you are just paying with your privacy instead of a tenth of a cent.

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

Or they will ignore the 0.5% of possible customers.

The option I provide is far more likely.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

that's small thinking, you are playing "their game", while "their game" is rigged by "their rules."

if you want to fix this you better come up with a monetary system controlled by the rule of law, and that means the US Constitution has to kick back in, by kicking the DHS out, and the Senate regulate the monetary system like it says in the US Constitution.

Even Deadwood had a bank they could trust!. It's not hard to run an honest bank, and provide credit when you follow the rule of law and don't over leverage.

Re:Do not want

[lgw]

sorry, but I do support OWS

Did you hear the entire Oakland police force just decended on OWSO and beat them into a pile of hippieburger? Happy days! OK, maybe there wasn't any violence, but somehow I doubt there'd be any riots over these beatdowns.

Do you also plan to overthrow the 1% of (people who fancy themselves) musicians who are good enough to make 99% of the money (that musicians make)? The 1% of the (people who fancy themselves) atheletes who make 99% of the money (that players make)? Sorry, but I do support the 1%.

Re:Do not want

[Bill Dimm]

Either a niche will open for an ethical credit card...

There is a huge barrier to entry here -- nobody is going to use a credit card that most merchants won't accept, and no merchant is going to bother accepting a card that nobody uses.

Re:Do not want

[bangwhistle]

I dunno, for me here in the U.S., being on the list has greatly reduced the volume of calls. The honest telemarketers (if that isn't an oxymoron) adhere to it, so that batch of calls has evaporated. I still get the calls like "this is credit card services, press 1 to lower your rate" but those are lowlife scums who would call even if the death penalty was on the table, so what can you do?

Re:Do not want

[pixelpusher220]

or they are out of business

Your proposal is acceptable.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh? And what do you do if you're poor and suddenly something comes up that you can't possibly pay for using money that you have now (the water heater breaks, the roof is leaking, your well dried up, etc)? Wait it out? Sorry, but not everyone has high-paying jobs. It's easily possible that people require a credit card to fix these things. Sure, some people use them for entertainment purposes, but I don't think you should assume that everyone has no need (perhaps not a need, but it is still very useful) for a credit card.

Re:Do not want

[agm]

This is what boycotts are for. If enough people refuse such services, then either the services will change or the merchants who use those services will change. The trick is to get enough mass appeal for the boycott.

Re:Do not want

[Bill Dimm]

I would be thrilled if consumers actually got outraged and boycotted when companies treated them like shit, but they just seem to roll over and take it. To see why I am skeptical, look at the responses to my comment about GOG.com here.

Re:Do not want

[tmosley]

I see, so you are ok with entire industries being wiped off the map?

Sounds about right for the giant cockroach you are quoting.

Re:Do not want

[tmosley]

I homebrew. Scale up is not difficult. Equipment needed is not expensive. Regulatory compliance just happens to take absolutely forever, especially for someone fresh out of college, with only a small nestegg. Hell, I had a building built, ready to go. Had all the equipment I needed to make my initial small batches. I hadn't ordered fermentors yet, thank God.

But seriously, fuck you. Regulation is real, and places an uneven burden on new businesses. Try opening a business and see just how real it is.

If you want a comparison, restrictive regulations are like a flat tax. They hurt the poor the most. Only thing is that rather than being a flat percentage, it's a flat DOLLAR AMOUNT, or at least, the time required to get it all done.

Re:Do not want

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Good, slowly you are realizing that, once the government is shrunk small enough to be drowned in a bathtub, the first thug who could, would. After that who is going to protect you, Mr Individual Q Liberty? Yourself? Armed gangs? Would these armed gangs who could take down a thug who could drown a government will respect YOUR rights?

Re:Do not want

[Sloppy]

The post you're replying to does mention the word "credit," but TFA is really about payment systems. You can live completely within your means and still you will be paying a "merchant services" tax on everything you buy and generate ad-targeting statistics. The issue isn't credit; it's about having a Man in the Middle.

We need cash or failing that, something just as good. I think a lot of people "get" this, which is why there's been so much desperate grabbing for Bitcoin stories and stuff like that on Slashdot lately.

Re:Do not want

[lonecrow]

LOL ROFL Yes, oh yes. I think I am going to print and frame your comment.

Small government for things other people find important, big government for the things I find important. It's the one truth from Tea Baggers to the far left.

Re:Do not want

[pixelpusher220]

Glad you got the reference :)

But no, that's the mantra of the GOP.

I'm giving them a choice. Regulation or do your business somewhere else. It's *our* country, not the corporations. We make the rules...or should make the rules if we stood up and made ourselves heard more often.

The 'industries' will be just fine. True small businesses will expand to meet the market opportunities if the big banks and oligarch's don't want to play by reasonable rules.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they don't. The 'phone line' only goes the last mile, between you and your provider.

Re:Do not want

[pairo]

How exactly do you buy things ONLINE?

With a debit card.

Re:Do not want

[makomk]

99% of the money that musicians make doesn't actually go to musicians at all - that's kind of the point of the protests, that the wealthy are benefiting from other people's labour - and I think a lot of the wealthier musicians are making most of their money from other people's music that they had no had in creating whatsoever.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a PoA for your parents, collectors can (and will) come after you regardless of who actually racked up the debt and when (even if the debt was dated before the PoA document).

Re:Do not want

[petermgreen]

Individual end user lines may not usually cross borders but the network as a whole does and that is ultimately what matters. You can't really cut a country off from the global phone system just because they refuse to enforce your rules on telemarketing.

Re:Do not want

[h4rr4r]

I homebrew, even then there is one employee, me.
I have opened a business before, just contracting stuff. I spent a little cash with a lawyer, but nothing I would call a nestegg. If you thought you would be opening a business with less than $50k and getting anywhere reality would have killed that dream soon even with no regulation.

Re:Do not want

[jez9999]

Of course. I trust the Tea Party to protect me and my liberty and Fox News to deliver me quality, unbiased reporting. At least I know I'm free.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

why should we need any regulations in place? i don't see any reason for such a step in your comment. or is it just because a typical reader "feels" it is bad?

every user of the mastercard has sign up the papers, where there is for sure such a statement, that they can do interesting stuff with your data. if one feels, that it is smthing bad, just dont simply use their products.

the solution to this problem lies completely elsewhere - the problem is in the market monopol of those few card companies. the government shall step in not to put some stupid regulations into the tracking problematic, but to regulate the finance industry and let other companies run their business there. haven't you read the article about the 140 world corporate companies just few days ago here on Slashdot?

if we, as ordinary people, would have the choice to choose from more than just few corporate financial card providers, no such situations as user tracking would be appearing., thus no such situations as stupid government regulations would be necessary.

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that worked so well for the financial markets? You must have the memory of a fucking goldfish to think this is a good idea.

Deregulation is only the solution to this, is if the problem is consumers aren't getting screwed enough.

Besides that there are real barriers to entry such as how does a new entrant build up a big enough network to actually be a viable choice for the consumer?

Re:Do not want

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm for small government and as much a libertarian as anyone here

So you are as much a libertarian as the least libertarian person on Slashdot? IOW not at all.

Advertising and money

[msobkow]

How much is enough? The rich suck up money like vacuums, and the media inundate us with intrusive advertising.

Ever watch a YouTube video on Facebook with Chrome? Aren't you annoyed by that damned popup overlay banner at the bottom pushing even more Google advertising?

Re:Advertising and money

[msobkow]

If Google wants to get in my face with advertising, I'll do my level best to get in their face about Canadian privacy laws.

Re:Advertising and money

[Anonymous Coward]

No because you only see ads on the internet if you choose to do so.

Re:Advertising and money

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up youtube a long time ago when every 30 second clip was preceded by a commercial. I never hit them, but once I hit my mobile or lan data cap with all the advertising they force you to download. They make you pay to advertise to you. Then take your history and sell it -- without giving anything back

Re:Advertising and money

[Anonymous Coward]

I would love to have ads that relate to my interests instead of the latest facebook games... until that happens AdBlock will protect me.

Just what I needed. Thanks 'murika.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Honey, why is our Credit Card Company advertising Dragon dildos on our webmail? I thought the most recent purchase was Carnival Cruise Lines so shouldn't there be some advertising for Lobster Dinner instead?"

Why does anyone want this way of life, or is is the world so unhappy that it would abandon their culture to live like paupers in a country whose sole export is Inflation and it's military makes better entertainment than Hollyweird?

syllogism

[Anonymous Coward]

If "you are what you buy", then last night I was a teenage prostitute!

Fuuuuuck

[Anonymous Coward]

Can we make this illegal please?

Re:Fuuuuuck

[TheRaven64]

Didn't we already? I'm pretty sure that this would violate the EU Data Protection Directive.

Interested in how they implement this

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm interested in how they will do the advertising. Do you think they'll sell your information to third parties, or just play the role of the middle man and link advertising to customers based on a look up tables.

Re:Interested in how they implement this

[nurb432]

Do you think they'll sell your information to third parties

Umm they have been doing that for decades...

Affected by Intermediaries

[elwin_windleaf]

I would be curious to see what effect services like PayPal would have on the ability for credit card companies to sell your data to advertisers. Do they still receive the relevant data, or is that retained at PayPal's level?

Granted, there's also nothing to prevent PayPal from doing the same thing with the customer data it collects. Back to gold doubloons handled with gloves, I suppose...

You always have something to hide...

[Anonymous Coward]

...from tyranny, and its proponents.

American Express it is then

[Anonymous Coward]

90% of what I buy goes through american express. The other good thing about American Express is that they haven't jumped onto this "pay wave" band wagon in Australia. I don't know if "pay wave" exists anywhere else in the world, but for small purchases a visa card or master card can be waved in front of a plastic brick that doesn't work. What should happen is that the transaction is automatically authorised without a pin or signature, representing a complete U-turn on fraud prevention strategies. The ads on TV make it look instantaneous and fun, with young, attractive people dancing and smiling and running about and buying cool products. The reality is that the thing just beeps with red lights until the acne-infested store assistant loses patience and grabs your card before running a regular transaction using the chip or the magnetic strip. Genius.

Re:American Express it is then

[sexconker]

90% of what I buy goes through american express. The other good thing about American Express is that they haven't jumped onto this "pay wave" band wagon in Australia. I don't know if "pay wave" exists anywhere else in the world, but for small purchases a visa card or master card can be waved in front of a plastic brick that doesn't work. What should happen is that the transaction is automatically authorised without a pin or signature, representing a complete U-turn on fraud prevention strategies. The ads on TV make it look instantaneous and fun, with young, attractive people dancing and smiling and running about and buying cool products. The reality is that the thing just beeps with red lights until the acne-infested store assistant loses patience and grabs your card before running a regular transaction using the chip or the magnetic strip. Genius.

We have them here in the US as well. I have never seen them work.
And I'm glad, because they're terrible for security.
I'm also glad whenever a store checks my ID or the signature on the back of my card (which they are specifically forbidden from doing in their contracts with visa/american express/master card/discover).

Banks profit from fraud because the vast majority of it goes unreported.
Banks thus encourage fraud at every opportunity.

Re:American Express it is then

[hawaiian717]

American Express in the US does have the "pay wave" thing, their term for it is Express Pay. I've never used it. You can contact Amex and have the feature disabled on your account so the transactions don't get approved, but the RFID chip is still present in the card so conceivably some bad guy can poll it for data.

Re:American Express it is then

[h4rr4r]

I use mine all the time, it works great. I am not liable for fraudulent charges so why do I care?

Re:American Express it is then

[Raenex]

I'm also glad whenever a store checks my ID or the signature on the back of my card (which they are specifically forbidden from doing in their contracts with visa/american express/master card/discover).

http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.html

"6. Check the signature. Be sure that the signature on the card matches the one on the sales draft. Do not accept an unsigned card."

Re:American Express it is then

[sexconker]

I'm also glad whenever a store checks my ID or the signature on the back of my card (which they are specifically forbidden from doing in their contracts with visa/american express/master card/discover).

http://usa.visa.com/merchants/risk_management/card_present.html

"6. Check the signature. Be sure that the signature on the card matches the one on the sales draft. Do not accept an unsigned card."

Go read actual contracts signed by actual merchants.
They all specifically preculde merchants from checking ID or the signature, even if the signature is blank.

This is because the agreements all have clauses that say you must match the terms of any competing card, to the benefit of the cardholder being able to complete the transaction.
If American Express lets the merchant require a minimum transaction amount for credit, but Visa doesn't, a merchant who accepts both American Express and Visa is not allowed to enforce a minimum transaction amount on American Express users.
The same goes for processing fees charged to the cardholder, ID verification, signature verification, signature requirements/thresholds, etc.
The only cards that don't trigger the must match clauses are store-specific cards (like a Best Buy card, or a Victoria's secret card), and debit/prepaid cards (they're an entirely different class of transaction).

Furthermore, security features, such as the digits on the back of the card, programs like Verified by Visa, and RFID/Chip and PIN/whatever shit are all optional and intentionally shitty. Banks foist these features on merchants because it puts the burden on the merchant when fraud occurs.

If you save your credit card on Amazon, they ask for the digits on the back of the card. These digits are never supposed to be stored, but Amaazon either stores them anyway, or verifies it once and then runs all future transactions without it. The lack of those digits does nothing to prevent a transaction from actually going though.

If you have noscript installed and you buy something on Newegg with a Visa card, the Verified by Visa redirect will fail. 5 minutes later your order will still go through.

If I clone someone's RFID-enabled credit card, and then make a fraudulent purchase, the merchant is ultimately on the hook if the actual cardholder initiates a charge back.

It's all horseshit, and the people paying for it are:
  - People who don't pay their balance off in full every month
  - People who don't notice fraudulent transactions
  - Merchants

Re:American Express it is then

[Raenex]

Go read actual contracts signed by actual merchants.
They all specifically preculde merchants from checking ID or the signature, even if the signature is blank.

How about you cite some evidence I can actually access? I don't know about checking the ID, but I don't believe for a minute that merchants aren't allowed to check the signature, which would be in direct contradiction to Visa published guidelines.

Re:American Express it is then

[sexconker]

Go read actual contracts signed by actual merchants.
They all specifically preculde merchants from checking ID or the signature, even if the signature is blank.

How about you cite some evidence I can actually access? I don't know about checking the ID, but I don't believe for a minute that merchants aren't allowed to check the signature, which would be in direct contradiction to Visa published guidelines.

Visa says merchants have to check the signature. But they aren't allowed to check it against anything. Not an ID, not the name on the front of the card, not the receipt that they sign, nothing. It can be a smudge. It can be "Frosty Piss". It can be "See ID" (and no, this does not let them check your ID). As long as there's a smudge of ink there, it's signed. And if it's blank, the person can sign it right there in front of the merchant and then it's valid. So it's a useless step, and no one gives a shit.

You can go ask merchants to see their contracts with Visa/MC/etc. if you don't believe it.
About the only merchant I know of who IS still allowed to verify signatures against an ID is the US Post Office.

As for IDs themselves, many states have laws that prohibit merchants from requiring ID / recording information from an ID / etc. (unless required for shipping).

Re:American Express it is then

[Raenex]

Again, you have cited no evidence. If it were true, you'd think you'd be able to find at least one merchant who said this online, or some discussion of policy.

It's called data analytics

[Lucas123]

It's been around for a while now. Haven't you noticed when you log into your social networking sites, you get ads based on what you've purchased or the hotels you've stayed in? It's what map reduce technologies will allow these companies to do more and more of in the future. Imagine this: your frequent flier miles cards, super market frequent shopper cards, credit cards, online transactions and people with whom you socially interact with online -- all that data will be used to compile an consumer profile on which companies will base their marketing and advertising. Cell phone companies already use it to figure out how likely it is that you'll jump ship to another carrier -- based on the habits of your friends on social networks. It's all very creepy and big brotherish.

Re:It's called data analytics

[Mashiki]

No. Because I don't use social networking sites, and I have adhosts blocked, and use an ad blocker. Hell the only reason why I have a credit card is because I don't feel like dealing with carrying a wad of cash when I'm on the road, and my canadian debit card doesn't work in the US. Well my credit card can be hit or miss too.

Re:It's called data analytics

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

all that data will be used to compile an consumer profile on which companies will base their marketing and advertising. It's all very creepy and big brotherish.

What's worse is that it's extending beyond simply "marketing and advertising" - the personal data collectors are looking to extract value from all that personal information any way they can. "Targeted marketing" is just the first obvious idea that has occurred to them. The second obvious idea is to sell that data to governments to circumvent constitutional protections against unreasonable searches. Some companies are selling location data, especially current location, to companies and individuals for tracking/stalking purposes. It's going to keep getting worse - as in more risky and more costly to the people being profiled and to society as a whole - as the data collectors come up with new and innovative ways to sell all of that profiling information they've been collecting by the terabyte.

Right now people are essentially "selling" this personal information to these data collectors without even knowing the value of the information they are selling, it's almost like writing a blank check in exchange for a handful of bright and shiny baubles.

Re:It's called data analytics

[epine]

I'm in exactly the same boat. This assistance they are so determined to extend in my direction can only jostle the elbow of merit-based purchasing decisions if I allow it to do so.

A meme I've dropped here in the past is how having a cable TV subscription is like parking a salty chip truck on your front lawn. One thing we know about human nature is that if you wish to prevail, you must win your battles in the store rather than at the refrigerator door where we quickly succumb to Decision Fatigue.

Eventually, at the rate this economic model is progressing, they'll have to legislate that failing to succumb to decision fatigue as theft of service. It's become our preferred payment program, hasn't it? There's no tax more widely lauded than a hidden tax. It's not that we hate to pay taxes, it's that we hate to know we pay taxes.

Re:It's called data analytics

[Eponymous Hero]

The second obvious idea is to sell that data to governments [cnn.com] to circumvent constitutional protections against unreasonable searches.

exactly what i was thinking. need a warrant to collect information? forget about it! just buy it from the bank. even better for the banks, when they want to get to someone they don't even need to use the law. political candidate X spent how much money on [insert popular vice here]?

Re:It's called data analytics

[Anonymous Coward]

Right now people are essentially "selling" this personal information to these data collectors without even knowing the value of the information they are selling, it's almost like writing a blank check in exchange for a handful of bright and shiny baubles.

It's funny, cause I think of information about me that could be used to target advertisements towards me as having an effective value of about zero, because I generally ignore ads, and the ones that do get up in my face enough to notice make me less likely to buy from the company in question. So, while I don't much like the fact it's being collected, I figure the effort to do so is a net loss for whoever's doing it, so we're about even.

I'm trying to come up with who else might be a customer for my information and drawing a blank.

Re:It's called data analytics

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying to come up with who else might be a customer for my information and drawing a blank.

While you may be drawing a blank, don't for a second think that your lack of imagination means anything. You - spend a couple of minutes in a half-hearted attempt because you don't think there really is a risk to begin with, the big data aggregators on the other hand, who have billions of dollars on the line, are hyper-focused on coming up with as many possible answers to that question as they can.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

Major credit card companies are going to link up our financial information to advertising information. I'd imagine that one good security breach could bring down the whole house of cards.

This just doesn't seem like a sound idea in regards to security or privacy.

I suppose this would be a non-issue if credit card usage wasn't as out of control as it is. People have gotten so far away from using cash that its use is being deemed obsolete by some (http://fleamarketzone.com/2011/10/louisiana-bans-cash-transactions-for-second-hand-merchandise/). Not a good sign when everybody controls money but the person earning it.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[pixelpusher220]

I'd imagine that one good security breach could bring down the whole house of cards.

Well maybe your house of cards, theirs is still nicely safe.

Well FUCK.

[JustAnotherIdiot]

make ads more effective at appealing to people in a respective area

Please, please no...I hate this place and the people in it with a passion, the last thing I want is to be bombarded with the bullshit they buy -.-

Re:Well FUCK.

[Anonymous Coward]

make ads more effective at appealing to people in a respective area

Please, please no...I hate this place and the people in it with a passion, the last thing I want is to be bombarded with the bullshit they buy -.-

Wow. I think this is the first generation where hardship or even perceived hardship has actually made their skin THINNER.

Seriously? ZOMG NO TEHY WILL AAAAAADVERTIIIIIIIIISE TO ME!!!!! THINGS I DO NOT WANT!!!! HALP HALP HALP IT HURTS ME is everyone's response to this? Seriously? Has anyone ever considered, you know, just ignoring the ads, like most people have for centuries (counting print ads)? Have we lost this ability? Are we now incapable of just shrugging and paying attention to something more interesting? Is this from the same line of OCD that forces people to argue with someone on the internet that they KNOW is wrong until the wee hours of the night (I'm certain the XKCD crowd can quote this comic by number)? Is it the same culture in which we allow trolls to thrive?

Or are we all just afraid that if a good advertisement hits us, we'll have to admit we're not as stoic as we think we are when we wind up buying it? Would you have bought the bullshit the people in your place buy without the advertising? Are you afraid it'll make you look weak if you're convinced to change your mind? Is it an image thing? Is it pride? Stubbornness? Narcissism? What is it? Why are the same advertisements we've been ignoring since the dawn of human communication suddenly so evil and somehow un-ignorable?

Re:Well FUCK.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. You ASK? So they take the chance and say "no"?

Luckily, I live in a country, where you don't need credit cards. At all. In fact it will add 3% to the prices of everything you buy with them. While our EC cards are free, and you can pay with good old normal cash everywhere.
But hey, if you promise to not bring Americanization with you, you're welcome to come over. :)

Re:Well FUCK.

[rastilin]

If you thought your argument had merit, why did you end up posting anonymously?

Re:Well FUCK.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because an "eh, i don't really care" doesn't get any karma.

time date & location

[Colin Smith]

So... You're not home usually between X and Y. Bought a new TV, expensive computer, key hiding rock.

Information is power.

Re:time date & location

[Anrego]

Location and time information, yes, I would want to keep off such a public site for the kind of practical reasons you have highlighted.

The fact that I eat at a place called Marios on a fairly regular basis.. not too sensitive but if I had a stalker I might be concerned...

The fact that I buy stuff from newegg, tigerdirect, NCIX, dell (ok, that is somewhat embarassing..), mouser, have a subscription to jamplay, safari books, and have a vps with slicehost .. I have a hard time seeing this hurting me.

Either way, it's a good point. Once visa starts grouping this data together, it becomes worrying who it will be distributed to. Realistically the chances of it getting anywhere that's gonna effect me directly (I'm too damn boring) is unlikely, but it's still a point..

Re:time date & location

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that I buy stuff from newegg, tigerdirect, NCIX, dell (ok, that is somewhat embarassing..), mouser, have a subscription to jamplay, safari books, and have a vps with slicehost ..

Thanks for those cool sites, I love you man! You saved my whole evening! :*
Anna

Re:time date & location

[DarwinSurvivor]

If you pay ANY restaurant 3 times per week (total, not each), it can be pretty reliably determined that there is a 50% chance you won't be home between 5 and 6 on Friday night. That list of computer hardware stores? I guess you've got some good stuff at home!

Season hockey tickets almost *guarantee* you won't be home at certain time, night clubs have limited hours (and most people go on Fridays & Saturdays), bus/plane tickets are also a good indicator that the house is empty.

You'll will notice that not ONE of the examples above requires even knowing what day of the week you bought anything. The most dangerous security leaks are the ones you didn't think were security related.

Re:time date & location

[Anrego]

I guess..

But I also work for a living, and live alone. Wouldn't take too much Colombo style work to figure out when I'm not home. They'd of course have to know I live alone.. but the same can be said about the credit card. For all a potential thief knows, my world champion martial artist wife (hey.. if I'm gonna pretend to have a wife..) maybe stays home while I'm at the game.

Knowing what I have in the house I guess might make a difference, but I don't think we have too many sophisticated thieves around here...

Re:time date & location

[GNious]

It isn't the data that 1 host holds - its the aggregate of what is available.
All hold different data, but if you add them up, you tend to get enough data to pinpoint an exact person, at an exact location (down to 1-2 blocks) with exact possessions. This is dangerous.

Example (not thought through, so bare with me):
Your CC details shows you buying stuff from local stores - gives us an area
Your G+/Facebook account shows us your name
Your Picassa/blog account shows us a picture - gives us ca year of birth, and idea of whats in your home
.
.
Collect all of the data, and you're no longer anonymous, hidden, private ...

Paranoia, yes, but only because they are all out to get me!

Re:time date & location

[DarwinSurvivor]

Check out http://pleaserobme.com/ for how this information can be collected/correlated by the smart, then abused by the unsophisticated.

Another item added to my list

[Anonymous Coward]

Google records all your searches along with your IP address, and your computer specifics, like your screen size, your browser type, operating system etc.

Firefox w/Ghostery currently has 667 web bugs in it's database.

Slashdot for Confidential-Data-Not-Safe-On-Solid-State-Disks.

Slashdot: German Politician Demonstrates Extent of Cell Phone Tracking.

US News: The snitch in your pocket.

ISP's record all your web traffic. Wired: Whistle blower outs NSA spy room.

Slashdot: NSA backdoor creates security hole in Windows.

Apple hires David Rice.

New York Times: New Web Code Draws Concern over Privacy Risks

Browser , Flash, Silverlight, HTML cookies, EverCookies.

Lifehacker: Facebook is tracking your every move on the web

Search Apple: Apple-Q-A-on-Location-Data.html

Cellbrite devices. theNewspaper: Michigan Police Search Cell Phones During Traffic Stops

Thinq_: Creepy app warns of an end to privacy

theguardian: Google may use games to analyze net users

Wikipedia: Remotely activated mobile phone microphones

ABCnews: OnStar reverses privacy policy, won't track non-subscribers

The Australian Financial Review: Peeping TomTom sells your every move.

"Firesheep"

Wall Street Journal: MasterCard and Vista to use your purchases to target ads online.

Before you move into a new neighborhood ...

[PolygamousRanchKid]

... use Google to find out what the folks there buy with their credit cards. KKK hoods? Anti-vaccination literature? Cannibalism Club Dues? Schizophrenia self-help books? Crack house paraphernalia? See what they've got under their fingernails . . .

Real Estate Agent: "Oh, it's a nice neighborhood, with pleasant people!"

You: "And they seem to spend a lot of money on books about how to annoy and sue their neighbors. And which one bought the cat skinning machine?"

It could influence your choice of location.

Re:Before you move into a new neighborhood ...

[Bucky24]

Cats can be trained, but it's very very difficult As with every other trainable animal, positive reinforcement is always better than negative.

Re:Before you move into a new neighborhood ...

[Anonymous Coward]

> which one bought the cat skinning machine?

To be fair, there's more than one way to do it. Conversely, there's more than one use for a cat-skinning machine.

Uh.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who didn't see this coming? Really.

What if I don't mind?

[vlm]

The /. assumption is its all gonna be hospital bills paid by Visa HIPPA violations and sex toy purchases. What if I don't really care about keeping a certain subset private, say "books" or "anything I bought at amazon.com"?

OK /. here is a list of stuff I purchased recently using a CC:

I ebayed a HP (made back when HP was "cool") WR-42 waveguide frequency meter for a ham radio 24 GHZ thing I'm working on (thats twenty four GHZ not two point four)
I bought a quantity of tapioca maltodextrin to experiment with edible oil sands (tastier than it sounds). With the idea of making a sandy italian salad, if that makes any sense. I know its hydrophillic, I guess I'll find out if its deliquescent soon enough...
Sitting on my desk unread is a Stephen Wolfram paperback of all his comp sci papers. Glance thru looks interesting. I enjoyed ANKOS. Hoping for a rainy, reading filled weekend filled with cellular automata. Or maybe next week, who knows.
Nature Publishing Group had an "impact" sale where you can subscribe for the impact number of the journal rather than the list price. No way in Fing hell I'm paying $299 or whatever it is for Nature Physics paper journal. But I'll subscribe for $18 or whatever it was exactly. I suppose just the gasoline to drive to the library every month will pay for this... I'm not sure how they're even keeping up with postage costs at $18.

Does anyone, myself, /., or the NSA, really care about any of this or find any actionable info in this?

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's no ones fucking business, which you simply dont get.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone, myself, /., or the NSA, really care about any of this or find any actionable info in this?

Can any of it be used to... *gasp* ...ad... ad... ADVERTISE?!?!?? EVIL! WRONG! UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN! IT MUST DIE! BANISH THEM! STONE THEM!

Any further questions for the hivemind?

Re:What if I don't mind?

[PeanutButterBreath]

Nature Publishing Group had an "impact" sale where you can subscribe for the impact number of the journal rather than the list price. No way in Fing hell I'm paying $299 or whatever it is for Nature Physics paper journal. But I'll subscribe for $18 or whatever it was exactly. I suppose just the gasoline to drive to the library every month will pay for this... I'm not sure how they're even keeping up with postage costs at $18.

Does anyone, myself, /., or the NSA, really care about any of this or find any actionable info in this?

Subject referred to "Nature" (note capitalization), "impact" and "NSA" along with obfuscated profanity. Flag profile as potential eco-extremist and refer to appropriate agencies. Add to no-fly list pending further evaluation.

FWIW, I don't mind accurate information about me being collected and processed competently. On the other hand, I very much do mind what actually happens with this information.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't mind so no one else should mind? Or do you think this is going to be an opt-in service. Would you actually take the time to opt-in?

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Eponymous Hero]

sure until some asshole decides to broadcast advocacy for terrorism from his ham radio (don't need al qaeda for this, a right-wing anti-abortion nut will do fine), and the anti-abortion clinic is close to your library. so you, the innocent ham radio operator, all of a sudden fit the description of a domestic terrorist due to information being available that would otherwise have required warrants to collect, meaning the police would have had to have an actual rational reason for investigating you (e.g. subscribing to Right-Wing Psycho monthly).

the fallacy in your reasoning is that your situation, and other situations outside your knowledge or control, will remain the same as they are and never introduce a scenario where the benign information you don't care about is used against you. it can and it will happen to someone. maybe not you, but that's like saying hey i'm not jewish so hitler never came for my people, right?

"Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini

Re:What if I don't mind?

[eh2o]

If you didn't commit any crimes then you won't mind if the police search your house, right? Since you don't cheat on your taxes then you won't mind if the IRS conducts an audit of the last 5 years of bank activity, right? Since you only made a bunch of generic yet strangely geeky purchases on your credit card, you won't mind if we share that information with advertisers, right?

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that centralized and easily accessible databases turn the normal sequence of a criminal investigation backwards. Normally, there's a crime, then suspects are found, then their records are further scrutinized.

But the database way can easily be: there's a crime, there are no obvious suspects, start doing broad database searches. And that may or may not find the actual criminal. However, by its very nature, it's terribly asymmetrical. It's going to start with a load of total coincidences that would otherwise never have come up - almost all the details about a large variety of crimes are completely mundane, after all. We're all very mobile, and all have access to a bunch of commodity materials. So, aside from a few fairly direct things like DNA evidence or an individually registered gun found at the scene, very very many people will have at least one total coincidence relating them to the scene, and no good alibi that covers the (possibly several hour) timespan involved.

So if you ever read any book in which a crime occurred, you just might have been researching to commit that kind of crime. If you ever bought rope or duct tape, you could have bought it to tie someone up with. If you ever bought a hammer, you could have used that to break into somewhere. If you ever bought even just one of the following: batteries, cleaning chemicals, a cheap used no-contract phone, a wristwatch, wire, wire cutters - you could have used them as part of a bomb or something. If you ever bought a gun or bullets, you could have used them to shoot someone. If you ever bought a condom, you could be a rapist. If you ever bought a Bible or Koran, you could be radicalizing into a future terrorist. And so on.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone, myself, /., or the NSA, really care about any of this or find any actionable info in this?

Can any of it be used to... *gasp* ...ad... ad... ADVERTISE?!?!?? EVIL! WRONG! UNCLEAN! UNCLEAN! IT MUST DIE! BANISH THEM! STONE THEM!

Any further questions for the hivemind?

I believe I speak for everyone when I say we're really sorry for caring more about our rights than a corporation's bottom line. I don't know what we were thinking, how stupid we were.
It's our duty to serve and protect the corporations. We'll gladly sacrifice our privacy if that's the price we must pay to raise Visa/Mastercard's profits - after all, who are we to deny them any of their wishes?

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for bringing us back to our senses.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if I ran a dating service, I'd know who not to waste my ad dollars on...

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about this: Over the last few years, I've purchased a large amount of Korean books and media in an attempt to learn the language and culture (and I'm definitely not Korean). About 25% of the total global population of native Korean speakers live in the RPNK.

Given how prone to McCarthyism we still appear to be, I feel nervous about advertising this particular interest, and I don't think my caution is unwarranted.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe not, but if you ever become a problem and are labeled a terrorist there will be a nice little database of all of your purchases. And they WILL use stuff like scary-sounding (though innocuous) chemicals and gasoline purchases to justify their action.

The funny thing about losing liberties is that by the time you realize how scary it is, you are well beyond being in a position to regain them.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[tapspace]

Someones wife or husband might find some of that actionable... Or mother or whomever. That's the point. Who knows the potential damage loss of privacy could cause. Me, I want my privacy in all matters, no matter how trivial, even if you don't.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's an electronic hobbyist who owns a ham radio, has possession of unregulated chemicals, reads subversive science fiction, and buys things at less than list price -- clearly a terrorist.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Expect to see more ads about giant death rays and vacant tropical islands in the future.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[sentimental.bryan]

I think you really bought the maltodextrin to cut drugs, dealer. Especially with your nerdy background, perhaps you're somehow involved in the manufacture of controlled substances, whoever heard of 'edible oil sands'. Lock m' up.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[vlm]

The whole point of my post was, at least for those purchases above, I am not in any way trying to keep them secret. Just don't care.
If it can somehow be made optional, or there is some way I can tell if a purchase is about to be public, then 99% of the time I'm cool with that.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[vlm]

sure until some asshole decides to broadcast advocacy for terrorism from his ham radio

Obviously you've never listened to the idiots on 75 meters and 20 meter sideband

all of a sudden fit the description of a domestic terrorist due to information being available that would otherwise have required warrants to collect

Ham radio licenses are public record.

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/searchAmateur.jsp

Also http://www.qrz.com/ and about a zillion other places.

Don't confuse government sharing, which is nearly total, and govt publicity which is also pretty wide open, with this new idea of advertiser sharing.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

they might if you bought some fertilizer for your garden and then filled your car up with diesel on the way home.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tech papers, radio gear, chemicals. Nice profile data to suggest you're making a remote detonation device. Consider yourself on the watch list, be very careful what you buy next if you don't want a raid and have your machines taken away.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[poofmeisterp]

Subject referred to "Nature" (note capitalization), "impact" and "NSA" along with obfuscated profanity. Flag profile as potential eco-extremist and refer to appropriate agencies. Add to no-fly list pending further evaluation.

FWIW, I don't mind accurate information about me being collected and processed competently. On the other hand, I very much do mind what actually happens with this information.

My detector spotted the quoted words along with "Flag", "eco", "extremist", "no-fly".

My people will be over to have a word with you. :)
/humor

Re:What if I don't mind?

[poofmeisterp]

Was starting to think I was the only ham on here. Pleasure meeting ya. I'll leave my call off of ./ for now ;)

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

1.) How do we know you are not messing with radio frequencies to create wireless explosives or block legitimate frequencies in order to enable a criminal act. 2.) Hydrophilic chemicals for waterproofing explosives? 3.) Did you know many terrorists are engineers? Scientific knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Do you love America? Are you willing to give up liberty for freedom?

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Anonymous Coward]

No kidding. I've bought Miralax at drugstores for using the PEG in solar home heating applications. I've also bought mineral oil (food grade) as a folding knife lubricant (it's cheap, it's edible, good for when you use your every day carry/EDC for camping).

I really don't want to be bombarded by ads targeting my alleged constipation..

Re:What if I don't mind?

[spxero]

For those _specific_ purchases, no. But it isn't about just your purchases or mine. As an earlier poster mentioned, what if you purchased some home theater equipment recently as well as some tickets to Jamaica? Even if those show up as "Recent Best Buy Purchase" and "Vacation Getwaway Package Purchase", it doesn't take long to piece together that you may have bought something and are going away for a weekend or longer.

Yes, this is a reaching argument. But who is allowed access to that data? How can I get a copy of the information being shared about me? Can I opt out of this, and is it opt-out by default?

Maybe some of the stuff I enjoy in my home life doesn't really need to be shared with my co-workers. This may sound silly to most, but I worked at a company that was very "family oriented" (funny, I worked more overtime there than anywhere else). This company frowned upon consuming alcohol, even in our personal lives. If we spoke about drinking over the weekend we generally received shunning and evil-eye stares from those who heard the conversation. What if the advertisements show skimpy girls and deals on liqueur because I visited a bar over the weekend?

This kind of thing meshes all parts of my life together and gives people the ability to know things about me that I don't want them to know about. That's what's wrong about this for me.

Re:What if I don't mind?

[Eponymous Hero]

Obviously you've never listened to the idiots on 75 meters and 20 meter sideband

brilliant, watson.

Ham radio licenses are public record.

you assume i'm referring to ham radio licenses as the information required by warrants. i was actually referring to someone's purchase history (yes, i'm aware there are loopholes that prevent the need for a search warrant in some cases) that would point an investigator to believe someone was using a ham radio, and also spent time in the vicinity of target areas (like the hypothetical abortion clinic and library). off the top, i'd guess this would be a receipt trail. you may have bought ham radio equipment, subscribed to a hobbyist magazine, paid for a license, and also show quite a lot of activity in stores near a target location. you haven't done anything and yet you are suspect because of someone else's actions (someone who probably isn't licensed to use the ham radio).

Don't confuse government sharing, which is nearly total, and govt publicity which is also pretty wide open, with this new idea of advertiser sharing.

don't worry, i never did. based on your assumption i think you were confused. regardless of this little detour, don't confuse a safe disclosure of your financial behavior today as safe disclosure tomorrow. thinking that unbiased information about you can't be used against you is naive at best. anyone who thinks this sale of their purchase history is harmless is a mark.

btw, ever consider what it was like to be an american practicing islam in 2001? you haven't done anything wrong, you've been peaceful your whole life, and you wake up one day and the whole country is screaming for your blood because some idiots who associated themselves to you (not the other way around) took thousands of lives. so you think you're safe because you don't overtly practice your religion or throw it in people's faces, but now homeland security wants to send you to guantanamo bay because you bought a copy of the quran for a relative. how much worse would it have been during the red scare if mccarthy could have searched anyone's credit records and started rounding them up because they bought karl marx's book Capital?

I've been expecting this for a while

[Animats]

I've been expecting this for some time. Google only knows what you look at. Visa and MasterCard know what you do. Amazon does this now, but only for sales within Amazon's system. Now it can work for everyone.

This could upset Google's dominance in online advertising. If some other search engine or social network partnered with Visa and MasterCard, they could do search ads much better than Google can.

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymity is dead
Long live Obfuscation

While bitcoin may not be it (the idea that we have to run modern computers flat out just to have secure money is anathema to environmental and energy sustainability), we definitely need an anonymous currency, or else we may as well all line up for chipping now.

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC they are called prepaid credit cards. http://www.creditcardguide.com/prepaid.html?ac=101&uv=77072&gclid=COr6ub37hKwCFaYbQgodMVE5CQ
pay with cash and you are good to go.

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[Fuji Kitakyusho]

Well, starting now, what I do is take cash advances on my credit cards in order to make purchases.

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[Anonymous Coward]

They still have to tie a credit card number to an IP address -- not a trivial association

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[damian2k]

exactly .... when all they"ve got is your full name, dob, address, credit history and maybe associated bank account getting an ip out of that lot is still going to be *extremely* difficult. hence google's insistence upon real identites for google+ it makes their marketing ability that much easier

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[jouassou]

Unless Google partners up with Visa or MasterCard -- which would mean that they can link what you look at to what you actually buy. That sounds like valuable data if you intend to increase the effectiveness of your ads.

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[FreeSpeechForTheDumb]

Err, What about Google checkout and Google wallet?

Re:I've been expecting this for a while

[rwv]

They could do search ads much better than Google can.

Most things I purchase repeatedly are sold in supermarkets. Really -- food and personal care products fit this description. To a lesser extent, I make purchases at a short-list of clothing retailers.

Amazon.com is typically for the things that are bought once. I mean, I suppose Amazon knows I bought Portal 2 for the PS3 -- so they could conclude I like puzzle-based PS3 video games. And the only reason I pulled the trigger on that was because it was being sold for less on Amazon.com than other real-world electronics retailers.

So yeah -- I don't think knowing what I've bought in the past *really* indicates anything about what types of online ads will most appeal to me.

Cash

[Anonymous Coward]

Well all that means is that i have to buy my escorts, sex toys, playboys, britney spears cd's, and viagra pills with cash.

Master Card Opt Out

[chazchaz101]

Master card appears to have an opt out page. Anyone know if there's something similar for Visa?

Re:Master Card Opt Out

[tokul]

Anyone know if there's something similar for Visa?

All cards have similar options. You go to your bank and cancel your card based on privacy violation. It is also against some privacy laws to disclose that kind of information.

Re:Master Card Opt Out

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Your Right!
The criminal organization has an opt out page.

Note government wants to know what you do with every $dollar,
But not a peep about the federal reserve and the offshore banks, hell that's classified, why it's national security to protect those off shore banks, it can't be a GDP to DEBT math fraud. It's okay to spy on you to protect the criminal organization, but it's not okay for you to spy on the criminal organization.

The whole government needs an anal probe, and the people need to do the probing.

a telling choice in phrasing

[Thud457]

I don't think I want to be a " TARGET " of anything.
They're viewing you as prey.

My proposal...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who wants to help me organize an identity obfuscation service? You give me a few key details about yourself, a credit card, and a small monthly cap. Initially I will hire overseas personnel to surf random sites, sign up for random things, and make lots of pointless small purchases - or the occasional large one. Once we have a sufficient number of participants, we'll increase the monthly purchase caps and use Person X's financial data to make purchases for Person Y and vice versa, and orchestrate the cross shipping. Over a short period of time, nobody will know what you do or how you did it. All personal data will be totally pointless and erroneous. As a safety precaution, this service will be located on Sealand, and records purged on a regular basis so the truth can never be uncovered. WHO'S WITH ME???

With VISA's approach, will people choose proxies

[Anonymous Coward]

by location just so see what stuff those locals are into?

Anonymous

[Hentes]

Your bank shouldn't give out your data to the card companies so theoretically they only know the ATM the transaction was made from, so they can change ads respectively in the area.

targeted

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they "target" people who tried to send wikileaks money, that they blocked?

Good luck with that

[Anomalyst]

Given the addiction that marketdroids have to execute their poorly designed crap on other peoples machines via javascript and flash, its ad-block + no-script + ghostery FTW.

Not allowed here

[Anonymous Coward]

This sort of thing is actually illegal here in Europe.

Do not want, and good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

What they'll discover is that I must be almost exclusively interested in ads about airline flights and rental cars, and not much else.

Privacy

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been doing random searches on google, ranging from 'clean' to 'dirty' topics so that they'd know nothing of me. Maybe I love cooking, maybe I don't. Maybe I play football, maybe I don't. Maybe I have a foot fetish, maybe I don't. Etc.
Any info google has on my search habits is unreliable.

I suppose that now I'll have to do random purchases of stuff I don't really want as a disinformation method against my credit card company.
On the other hand, I also have a habit of buying from companies that don't put their full names on my credit history. If all my credit card company sees on the receipt is your company's initials or something that doesn't give away who you are and what you sell, I'll buy from you over your competitors.

Privacy to me is more than about hiding embarrassing things. True, I don't want my sex life to be public (thank god advertisers don't have a way of recording what we do in bed!). But I also just don't want anybody to know everything about my life. Even if it's not embarrassing, I still want it to be private.
Facebook knows when you go to bed, when you wake up, what you have for breakfast... Nothing wrong with them knowing you eat cereal every morning, but the fact that they know every little thing you do is creepy. How would you react to a stranger in the street suddenly asking you all these questions?
Same applies with my credit card company and my purchases. I don't care that Mastercard knows I've bought new curtains, but I don't want them to know the time and location of every single purchase, and every single item I've bought.

My work makes me sensitive to the importance of personal information, as insignificant as it may be. If I had access to Facebook's database, I could rob people's home and get away with it. I could frame people for murder. I could blackmail you into sending me erotic pictures of yourself. I could get myself elected president. I could scam you out of your money, make you join a cult and sell your grandmother to human traffickers. I could get said human traffickers to buy your grandmother and make her work as a stripper.
Knowing every single detail about people's lives is a very powerful tool that sadly, most people strongly underestimate. When you know all the buttons you can push, and people's specific reactions to the push of each button, you can control them without them even knowing.
I could find dozens of way to make you go to work in a bad and grumpy mood. And you'd never know the things that I used to upset you (e.g. comments I know you'll hate reading on a website you visit every morning) were not a coincidence. I could then find many more days to make your day suck even more. I could get you fired by the end of the day - or to be precise, I could make you get yourself fired. All I need is the information Facebook and others have about you.

Privacy is important. Even if you're just keeping your breakfast a secret.

After Wikileaks, their time is limited.

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to see both Mastercard and VISA burn and so does a lot of the world now. If you are wondering why read the Subject. If you are still wondering go read the news.

Everything evolves...

[deep_creek]

Mr. Anderson, we here at Microsoft would like to hire you. But, your purchasing history indicates you buy exclusively Apple products. We just don't see a place in the company for someone who supports the competition.

I guess

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess raping small businesses with CC fees and raping customers with interests, late fees, and other processing fees is not lucrative enough... Don't these leeches realize you can only suck so much blood before their victim dies?

I Wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

See, I have a business where I use my credit card to buy cigs, ammo and porn and then resell it (at a slight markup).
I am not a consumer of porn or cigarettes (although I like to celebrate my big wins with a few shots into the air) I feel that their marketing efforts might be wasted on me. I do not want the great and humble banks to lose more money than they already have. They have our best interest in mind and only want to help us.

Just how is Visa or Mastercard going to advertise

[Stan92057]

Just how is Visa or Mastercard going to advertise to us using our buying history online? I can only see this being done through email as there is no way for them to know just where we are on the web at any given moment in time. I'm sure as hell not going to download anything from them to serve me ads lol. And they don't have my email address although I'm sure they have plenty of their customers email addresses. But that would be easy to unsubscribe to even if they do.

Re:Just how is Visa or Mastercard going to adverti

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you pay for your internet access? Debit account, possibly on a Visa card?

In 6 months, the TOS of Comcast, ATT, and Verizon will change when they partner with Visa/Mastercard.

Or, maybe they'll just partner with Facebook, since it possibly knows both your email address and CC#.

Law is for those who can afford it.

[BrokenHalo]

The legal niceties of this will only be settled after enough people have had their fingers burnt.

Seems to me that the only safe strategy is to never present your credit card information in any kind of trackable transaction. How far you want to carry this depends on your level of paranoia, but I just settle for using an "incognito" window in Chromium for any kind of financial transaction.

So I'll get ads for things I like?

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of ads for things I don't like?

Ok.

barter much...

[zlives]

i will pay 2 chickens for that roll of copper

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

well hopefully you dont need embarrassing hemroid creme, Im sure my wife wants her vagasil purchase up on the web site also. These are the kinds of things i don't need people seeing you fucking asshole. What if you wanted to surprise someone for birthday, or how about going to an abortion clinic or, is it that time of the month. Oh wait that doesn't matter just get up in my privacy. Oh shit i have just contracted aids now everyone knows my purchases and i was keeping it on the low but can no longer do that because well your an idiot. Or wait, I have to buy my medical marijuana but now its disclosed and i will be judged for getting treatment. So many more, you are about is simple as they come.

Re:Well

[Anrego]

Did you completely skip over the "Some people do have (perfectly legal) things they want to hide for whatever social or practical reasons." bit, which pretty much covers everything you listed... and was kind of the whole point of my post.

Come on man, my post was only two paragraphs! Not even big ones!