Slashdot Mirror


Google Releases Geothermal Potential Map of the US

a_hanso writes "The Google funded Enhanced Geothermal Systems research at the Southern Methodist University has produced a coast-to-coast geothermal potential map of the United States. Having invested over $10 million on geothermal energy, Google seems to believe that it is our best bet at kicking the oil habit (especially now that nuclear power has suddenly become disproportionately unpopular)."

401 comments

  1. I got... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    first post... powered by Geothermal Energy!!!

    1. Re:I got... by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      First reply.... motivated by distrust of nuclear energy!

  2. first thanks! by djfuq · · Score: 1

    Thank you Google -- I wish that the country as a whole was making this happen. We banded together for WWII why not do it immediately for humanity and the planet's survival?

    --
    Dj fuQ [url="http://djfuq.org"]djfuq urges you to listen to the beats[/url] [url="http://djfuq.org"]http://djfuq.org[
    1. Re:first thanks! by ByOhTek · · Score: 1

      because we won't be using geothermal energy to kill people from other countries?

      Maybe if we decided on a geothermal laser. I'm thinking of the mining laser from star craft 2, but geothermal...

      --
      Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
    2. Re:first thanks! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Because you need some LOOOOOOOOONG wires to get from all that dark color in the west to the population centers in the east. Might be feasible for CA, though.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:first thanks! by erroneus · · Score: 2

      There's money in weapons and killing people. (Google "Military Industrial Complex") There's a definite loss of money when it comes to the care and feeding of humanity or of the planet. Geothermal is too close to being "free energy" for most to consider.

      Also, for every clean energy source, there will be some asshat that will come along to protest it. Most notably, I recall a story about wind farming being protested because it kills birds. So okay, burning stuff is out. Wind is out. Solar is out because it takes too much room and is too ugly and not to mention how inefficient it is. Nuclear is out because people are scared of it. What's left? Ocean currents? Oh no... that'd somehow imbalance the ocean's eco-system, kill whales or mermaids. How about beaming energy in from space in the form of microwaves? Yeah... no... that's a huge death ray and would probably cause serious problems for people who enjoy popcorn.

      Okay, I'm out of ideas.

    4. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      why not do it immediately for humanity and the planet's survival?

      Increasing our available sources of energy and thus allowing for even more uncontrolled growth and overpopulation is not ensuring the planet's survival but rather its destruction.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:first thanks! by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      Your assuming that any significant amount of people are actually controlling their reproduction based on the world's remaining resources.

    6. Re:first thanks! by pspahn · · Score: 2

      You do realize that people are in fact living, and thriving, out here in these dark colors, don't you?

      Wait... never mind. I've said too much already.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    7. Re:first thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably because it would be hard to do, with all the creepers spawning under ground, and blowing up all your work.

    8. Re:first thanks! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      Not consciously; but wealth is suprisingly reliable at lowering fertility rates(shockingly, constant breeding is apparently not actually what people want) and poverty is less surprisingly reliable at raising mortality rates...

    9. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Not currently, but they will when they no longer have a choice.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    10. Re:first thanks! by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      I second that. Thank you Google. I wish more companies would work for society's benefit instead of solely next quarter's share price.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    11. Re:first thanks! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      I thought that the current activist meme was that wealth was a bad thing...

      These change so often over the years. I have trouble keeping up with them.

      It's a bit like tropical oils as opposed to hydrogenated. They were ok, then evil, now they're ok again. *shrug*

    12. Re:first thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If all Malthusians just committed mass suicide, the overpopulation problem would disappear overnight.

    13. Re:first thanks! by Aryden · · Score: 1

      You do realize that we already pipe energy from one side of the country to the other right? The "Long Wires" are for the most part already there. Upgrade, enhancements will be need but the framework is in place.

      The real question I have is, that 2.98M megawatts being pumped out, is that weekly, monthly, yearly, in total or what? And how much of our national energy consumption does that actually take care of?

    14. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, better to stick your head in the sand and pretend that reality and arithmetic is not real, right?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    15. Re:first thanks! by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      There's also some red in Texas/Arkansas/Louisiana and West Virginia. Not as much as out west, true, but probably enough to be useful.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    16. Re:first thanks! by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      You are way too optimistic about humanity. The whole "go forth and multiply" religions encourage people to have lots of kids and tell them that god will fix it all up so don't worry.

    17. Re:first thanks! by hawguy · · Score: 5, Informative

      You do realize that we already pipe energy from one side of the country to the other right? The "Long Wires" are for the most part already there. Upgrade, enhancements will be need but the framework is in place.
       

      Actually, we don't. At least not significant amounts.

      The USA is essentially 3 main power grids without much interconnection between them (but it's planned).

      Check out this map:

      http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997398

      (turn off the "proposed" lines to see what the grid looks like today)

    18. Re:first thanks! by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      What makes you think this would make the average person more wealthy? Everything we've seen throughout history would dictate that somebody would get rich but not the majority of people.

      And there are plenty of wealthy religious people popping out 4+ kids.

    19. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but god isn't so good at avoiding things like famine, war and disease. Population control will not be voluntary but it will happen.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    20. Re:first thanks! by smelch · · Score: 1

      Oh, is projecting technological advances, and complex trends based on many factors reality and arithmetic now? I thought it was hazy guess-work and complex statistical modeling.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    21. Re:first thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We banded together for WWII

      That was for profit. The Walkers (Bush) got very rich selling steel to the Nazis.

      why not do it immediately for humanity and the planet's survival?

      Because oil has a much larger capacity for profiteering.

    22. Re:first thanks! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you keyword triggered or something?

    23. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Technology does not get to cheat thermodynamics. Why is it so hard to accept that overpopulation, which has been evidenced in biological and microbiological systems time and time again, does not become its own population control when it comes to the human race? Technology requires energy. When we exhaust our cheap energy supplies there will be a correction. When you are forced to sit and decide if you are going to use land to produce energy (I have yet to see an alternative energy proposal that does not require surface area, be it corn->ethanol, algae->biodiesel or solar/wind->electricity) or to produce food for people, you run into your hard limit that no technology can circumvent. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "when".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    24. Re:first thanks! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You're almost right, except that the "proposed" lines are all the ones that are already in planning and already being built. Those are not part of whatever new things we would need to plan for.

      Also if you turn off proposed lines, you'll see it is all actually connected. Not by the highest voltage lines, but then again, those higher voltage lines don't go to most places regionally, either. And they still wouldn't.

    25. Re:first thanks! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That just pushes it further in the other direction. In that case, increasing power generation should _decrease_ population growth!

      Personally I think there are lots of confounders and it wouldn't be so rosy. But that is at least the implication of that variable.

    26. Re:first thanks! by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      derrrrp!

      ... *!

      No, actually, the existence of arithmetic doesn't make complex issues of wealth, energy, and population simple! Keep trying, though. I'm sure you'll be able to find a set of views so completely without nuance that it all seems like 1+1.

    27. Re:first thanks! by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Perhaps Flyover country should just build and use all that cheap energy for themselves.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    28. Re:first thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a known fact that improvements in education and wealth of a nation has a direct negative effect on population growth, even for religious people.

    29. Re:first thanks! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      "grep for kibo"

    30. Re:first thanks! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      You do realize that people are in fact living, and thriving, out here in these dark colors, don't you?

      Have you ever looked at a population density map of the USA?

      People do indeed live out there. But most of the people in the USA don't. Get away from the Northeast, the West Coast, and Texas, and you're looking at no more than 20% of the US population living in ~80% of the land are of the USA.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    31. Re:first thanks! by robot256 · · Score: 0

      Wealth, in general, is a good thing. It improves productivity and reduces fertility to manageable rates. Which is why letting 1% of the population HOARD ALL OF IT and not letting anybody else have some is a BAD thing, hence the protests. An individual needs a relatively finite amount of wealth to achieve the desired effect. The protestors not trying to say everybody should be poor. They're saying nobody should be that filthy rich.

    32. Re:first thanks! by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      That doesn't answer my question.

    33. Re:first thanks! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Geothermal is too close to being "free energy" for most to consider.

      Not even close. Geothermal costs about as much as any other source of electricity right now, and maintenance costs can't be ignored...

      Well, they can be, for the first decade or so after you sink that shaft. After that, having to resink that shaft because the old shaft corroded away from having cool water pumped into it and boiling water pumped out for a few decades won't be trivial...

      Note, by the by, that adjusting the pH of the water used to control corrosion will work fine, right up until time the pH-adjusted water leaks into the groundwater somewhere.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    34. Re:first thanks! by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Minor correction: I can't put words in the mouths of the protestors, since there are many things they themselves disagree on. The majority of reports I've heard are that they are not protesting wealth in general, simply the gap between the rich and the poor and the irresponsibility of the rich. I should have said "nobody should be that filthy rich at the expense of everyone else."

    35. Re:first thanks! by Muros · · Score: 1

      I don't think many would agree with that. Concentration of wealth is undesireable. Obscene wealth is... well, obscene. I have nothing against people being comfortable, or independently wealthy, etc. Able to retire at 35? Well done. Able to buy your own country? Should not be allowed.

    36. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      I see, so the median person today is no better off than they were 150 years ago?

      Also, there aren't that many religious people having that many babies. You are pointing to a totally undefined anecdote and claiming it is a trend of some sort.

    37. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Malthus and his followers have been wrong every time for just how many hundreds of years now?

    38. Re:first thanks! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      why not do it immediately for humanity and the planet's survival?

      Let's see. Best guesstimate of cost worldwide would be about $3,000,000,000,000. Or more, since it would likely require a fair amount of infrastructure investment just to get construction equipment to a lot of the places you'd need to move it to build the system.

      Not counting a suitable electrical grid to move the power from where it's generated to where it'll be used. Which won't be peanuts.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    39. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      ITT Malthusians don't understand how microbiology works.

      FYI, microbes experience an exponential growth phase that lasts about 24 hours until they form a strong biofilm, at which point growth stops, and the remaining cells tune themselves to use less and less energy (due to the ECM they build up, which protects the cells passively). The human analogy is that we grow until we build up the capital base such that each individual consumes a minimal amount of energy, ie we live in apartments, where food and other products are produced far away in a highly efficient manner, and shipped into the population centers, ie we become a highly urbanized society. We don't just live on ever more subdivided plots of farmland left to us by our great great grandparents.

    40. Re:first thanks! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Why is it so hard to accept that overpopulation, which has been evidenced in biological and microbiological systems time and time again, does not become its own population control when it comes to the human race?

      Because the rate of population growth is declining worldwide?

      Because, more specifically, the rate of population growth in the "advanced" countries has gone NEGATIVE? Absent immigration from the third world, of course.

      Seems that the data tends to suggest that if we raise the entire world's standard of living to the level of Europe and the USA (yes, and Canada too), the population decline would accelerate (since the entire population growth of those areas is due to immigration - if the immigrants weren't making babies any faster than we are, then it's unlikely they'd be exporting their surplus population....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    41. Re:first thanks! by hawguy · · Score: 1

      You're almost right, except that the "proposed" lines are all the ones that are already in planning and already being built. Those are not part of whatever new things we would need to plan for.

      Also if you turn off proposed lines, you'll see it is all actually connected. Not by the highest voltage lines, but then again, those higher voltage lines don't go to most places regionally, either. And they still wouldn't.

      So by "almost right" you mean that I'm completely right? Power lines that are "in planning and being built" are not in operation.

      That map shows over 6000 miles of proposed new 765KV power lines - what's the timeline to complete them and is the whole proposed network funded?

      I see a single 345KV - 500KV line connecting the east and west grids, which is what I meant when I said "At least not in significant amounts". A single power plant can exceed the carrying capacity of that line.

    42. Re:first thanks! by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      What measure are you using to say that the median person is "better off" today? How do you even measure what that means? Are you measuring by wealth, debt, independence, health, literacy, life expectancy, infant mortatlity? Can you narrow it down a bit for me?

      There are studies that show that people who go to church regularly have larger families. Here is one just sample but with enough googling I am sure you can dig up others.

      http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/religion-and-family-connection-social-science-perspectives/chapter-3-religion-and-family-mi

      No matter what, though, you totally ignored/missed my whole point. I was saying that somebody will get rich off the this but it is unlikely that society will become wealthier as a whole because of it.

    43. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      at which point growth stops

      Which means that the death rate increases and the birth rate declines until an equilibrium is reached.

      However your model is very obviously assuming unlimited nutrients, as in the case of a colony growing somewhere in the wild, hopefully on an organism that is moving around and feeding itself and hence the bacteria. Put a limit on those nutrients - place that colony on a petri dish and make it a closed system - like our planet is. What happens? You end up with the classical bacterial growth curve. The same will happen to us. You can argue about conservation of matter, and that we're not shipping our waste off into space, and that is true. However converting waste back into useable resources takes energy and surface area. Converting sunlight into food takes surface area. Our limit will be how many square km we can organize into productive land, and how efficient we can become in recycling our waste.

      But what happens when you bump up against those real limits and there's a natural disaster, a flood, a war, or something that upsets the delicate balance between producing at the maximum rate and consuming at the maximum rate? What happens when there is no longer any reserve left, and all production is being instantly consumed - and then production decreases suddenly because of unforseen or uncontrollable circumstances? This means that millions, or even billions, die suddenly. You think this is a future we should be proud of as a species?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    44. Re:first thanks! by pspahn · · Score: 1

      People do indeed live out there. But most of the people in the USA don't.

      People do more than live here. National park visitors alone bring tens of millions of visitors each year. There's also skiing (6.9 million in 2010-2011 in Colorado alone), transportation (can't drive from NY to LA without passing through 'flyover' country), and a ton of other activities.

      Sure, "most" of the people don't live here, but then again "most" of the people still have a significant interest in what happens here since this is where they come when they get sick of the crowds on the coast.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    45. Re:first thanks! by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Once again we encounter this silly notion that most power in the US is used for "people" (residential needs). Residential electricity consumption is just over a third of the total US electricity demand. If power is cheaper in some part of the country, heavy industry and high electricity-consumption commercial will move there. That's why we have so many of our aluminum smelters in the Pacific Northwest, feeding off of cheap hydro. It's why aluminum is Iceland's leading export despite there not being a single bauxite mine in the country.

      Furthermore:

      A) There are "hot" areas out east as well -- just not as major or widespread. But you honestly don't need much; the total power potential from EGS is so much greater than the demand.
      B) You don't have to produce from the hottest areas; it just means more well cost per unit power generated to use a cooler area.
      C) Power *can* be shipped cross-country with rather low losses, via HVDC lines. Which are surprisingly affordable; HVDC has a lot of per-terminal cost but a not-unreasonable per-mile cost.

      Lastly:
      "Get away from the Northeast, the West Coast, and Texas".

      In case you didn't notice, the greatest heat potential areas *are* near the west coast.

      --
      Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
    46. Re:first thanks! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The power grid obviously covers most of the US, but as a practical matter energy is not being moved very large distances.

      The line losses would be horrendous without some kind of new technology being employed. China and Brazil seem to be creating high voltage DC lines with losses around 3%/1000km. I think average loss in the US is 10%, so that still would be more line loss than we have today, but it might at least be feasible.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    47. Re:first thanks! by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, there are idiots. So? Even the Audubon Society supports wind power, so long as you do the (required) bird safety studies and best-practices for bird strike amelioration. Bird turbine deaths are a drop in the bucket compared to most anthropogenic bird death causes, even taking into account its currently limited scale. Our worst are glass windows and the raising of housecats, but everything from habitat destruction to hunting to industrial waste ponds to vehicle strikes kills far more birds than wind turbines. The "wind turbines are bird cuisinarts" notion came from one old, specific wind farm, built in as horrible of a location and manner as possible (Altamont Pass). It was from before the bird strike issue was well known. They built it in the middle of a raptor flyway, using small, low, closely spaced, fast-spinning turbines whose tower structure was inviting for birds to try to perch on. It was a perfect recipe for disaster, and doesn't apply at all to modern wind farms.

      There are some concerns about EGS, mainly about earthquakes; however, the quakes are low-level, and all you're really doing is just accelerating what was going to come naturally. Apart from that, geothermal is about as non-intrusive of a power generation method as you can get -- just a plume of steam rising in the distance. There's even one interesting geothermal approach being pursued out there that eliminates even EGS's problems. Instead of drilling open "wells", then fracking a reservoir, then running water through the reservoir, instead you drill a self-contained water-cooled "heat sink" of thermally-conductive grout. Your water working fluid never touches the rock (only the grout does), so it never takes on corrosive minerals or waste gasses, there's no earthquakes (because there's no fracking), and it works reliably, equally well everywhere in the world with the same heat gradient (instead of just in areas with good potential reservoir rock layers) since you don't have to get water to run through a fracked rock layer in just the right manner (one of the big problems with EGS is that you never really know where your water is going to go once you inject it until you drill the well, frack the rock, cross your fingers and try).

      --
      Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
    48. Re:first thanks! by Rei · · Score: 2

      Take a look at GTherm's technology. No shaft corrosion problems because the water never touches the rock. Heat is transferred to the water by a thermally conductive grout; it's basically a giant underground liquid-cooled heat sink. Which also eliminates the huge problem in EGS of not knowing where your water is actually going to go after you inject it until you physically try it out. Probably the biggest problem EGS has is that you have little control over how the reservoir rock is going to behave. Your injected water could just flow through some unknown cracks into some other layer and be lost for good rather than making it into your recovery well(s). Its just so random. The GTherm approach is for a single modular system that's virtually identical no matter where you put it. All that varies from place to place is the difficulty in drilling through different kinds of rock and the heat/depth profile (aka, in general, how deep you need to go).

      --
      Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
    49. Re:first thanks! by Rei · · Score: 2

      Abundant, low impact power can achieve amazing things in terms of increasing carrying capacity. Iceland will soon be a net *tomato exporter*, for example. They build geothermal power plants, generate power from the water which they use to run lights in greenhouses, and use the waste heat to heat the greenhouses. Super-dense, high productivity grow operations. You can see some examples up north here. Iceland has long been self-sufficient in fish, dairy, eggs, and meat, but is increasingly becoming self-sufficient in vegetables, too. If Iceland can do it, and EGS can bring this kind of abundant heat and electricity to anywhere else in the world, the rest of the world will be able to as well.

      --
      Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
    50. Re:first thanks! by Spoke · · Score: 1

      Solar is out because it takes too much room and is too ugly and not to mention how inefficient it is.

      Solar is not "inefficient". I hate how that myth is perpetuated. Compared to plants (biofuels), solar is extremely efficient. Typical crystalline PV panel is around 15% efficient at turning sunlight to electricity today - meaning that 1 sq/M of panel in direct sunlight of ~1000W sq/M will produce about 150W. Thin-film panels are around 10-11% efficient, but they are cheaper per watt of output. High-efficiency consumer panels are around 20% efficient, but they cost more per watt of output. The best solar panels are around 40-50% efficient, but these are so expensive that they are only used where space and weight is an absolute premium - like space ships and satellites.

      Efficiency doesn't really matter for most uses - just covering all your ugly rooftops with that technology would provide a very substantial amount of electricity. Even if we could produce 50% efficient panels for the cost of 15% panels, that's only a 3x improvement - not quite earth shattering - and still not the limiting factor in use today.

      Really, the only thing that matters is cost. Right now PV costs between $0.15-$0.30 / kWh depending on how much sun your area gets and the details of your installation. Get that down to $0.05-$0.10 / kWh and you will see panels plastered everywhere the sun shines. We're not that far off - we'll probably be there by the end of the decade. http://www1.eere.energy.gov/solar/sunshot/

      A lot more detail on this subject on this great blog post: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/09/dont-be-a-pv-efficiency-snob/

    51. Re:first thanks! by Aryden · · Score: 1

      You are correct in the "not in significant amounts" aspect. However, we are still piping energy from one side to the other. No the infrastructure for high capacity lines does not necessarily exists, but we're still piping it, just over smaller infrastructure.

    52. Re:first thanks! by DaleSwanson · · Score: 1

      The real question I have is, that 2.98M megawatts being pumped out, is that weekly, monthly, yearly, in total or what? And how much of our national energy consumption does that actually take care of?

      A watt is a unit of power, which is the rate of energy use. If you want it in energy/time it's 3 trillion joules per second. Wiki tells me that the peak electrical power demand for the US is around 800 GW. Since the geothermal potential is about 3000 GW, we in theory could get all our electricity from geothermal. I think our power usage is something like 40% electrical, 40% transportation, 20% heating. So it could even provide all power, and some exports, and some room for growth. Of course that is after a huge infrastructure investment, and with optimistic estimates.

    53. Re:first thanks! by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Can we leave out the links to Texas? It will make things a lot easier when they go crazy and secede.

      --
      That is all.
    54. Re:first thanks! by budgenator · · Score: 1

      So are trying to say we should nuke China and India?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    55. Re:first thanks! by hawguy · · Score: 1

      You are correct in the "not in significant amounts" aspect. However, we are still piping energy from one side to the other. No the infrastructure for high capacity lines does not necessarily exists, but we're still piping it, just over smaller infrastructure.

      So you agree that there's currently no infrastructure for piping significant amounts of electricity across the country thus insignificant amounts of power flow cross country, but you disagree with what I wrote?

      Actually, we don't. At least not significant amounts.

      Is that different from what you just said?

    56. Re:first thanks! by michael_cain · · Score: 1

      C) Power *can* be shipped cross-country with rather low losses, via HVDC lines. Which are surprisingly affordable; HVDC has a lot of per-terminal cost but a not-unreasonable per-mile cost.

      I've decided that I'm going to be an advocate for the idea of the 11 western continental states seceding (everyone should champion at least one impossible cause). In support of that, I'll point out that cross-country HVDC lines are relatively fragile and dynamite is cheap. Attempting to power the East Coast with solar electricity from the desert Southwest and geothermal electricity from the Great Basin could be... unreliable :^)

    57. Re:first thanks! by michael_cain · · Score: 2

      While it's true that a considerable amount of Eastern electricity is derived from Western sources, the "Long Wires" are railroads and pipelines moving coal and natural gas respectively. In very round numbers, 25% of Eastern electricity is generated by burning coal from Wyoming and points farther west. Another 15% or so is generated by burning natural gas from Texas/Louisiana/GOM, the Rocky Mountain region, and western Canada. As others have noted, relatively little electricity is actually moved between the three Interconnect regions in the US, particularly on net.

    58. Re:first thanks! by Rei · · Score: 1

      In support of that, I'll point out that cross-country HVDC lines are relatively fragile and dynamite is cheap

      1) One or two lines will not carry all of the nation's power.
      2) Most carrying capacity on the grid is designed for peaks, and the average consumption is far lower.
      3) Backup systems, such as peakers, are automatically a part of any sound grid -- present and future.
      4) There's tons of infrastructure that dynamite can likewise damage.

      --
      Seen on a Japanese food processor: "Not to be used for the other use."
    59. Re:first thanks! by wisty · · Score: 1

      And there's farming. Agriculture uses a lot of energy, and with raising oil prices they might find a way to substitute energy for oil. Not immediately, but oil is only going to get exponentially more expensive as it all runs out and demand still grows.

    60. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Nope. You are dumb, boy. The bacteria, if deprived of nutrients for too long will simply go dormant, and won't reawaken until fresh nutrients appear.

      And unlike bacteria, we can escape the petri dish. Not to mention we can find all manner of new sources of "food".

    61. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Why narrow it down? Every one of those things improved massively as a result of the development of new resources, save perhaps for debt, which is what is killing our economy at the moment (but go back 50 years, and SURPRISE! No debt!).

      And yes, religious families have more children than non-religious families, but you totally missed out on the fact that the same trend applies to them, ie as they get richer, they have fewer children. A hundred years ago, most rural American families (likely religious) had nine or more children. Now it is down to four. See the trend?

    62. Re:first thanks! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      "I can't put words in the mouths of the protestors, since there are many things they themselves disagree on."

      That's one of the reasons they're an easy target at the moment. They disagree on a lot of things. Right now, Occupy seems to be all things to all people showing up at the rallies.

      Another is that they're the flavor of the month and thus have a lot of enthusiastic participants willing to say not so well chosen things to the press.

      Both of those describe the Tea Party when it was first starting up. (And the Tea Party was sure the target of a lot of jibes too.)

      The worst thing that can happen to them right now is for people to lose interest and stop talking or even joking about them.

      Given that, I can't resist adding:

      "nobody should be that filthy rich at the expense of everyone else"

      But, I do wonder how that excludes Soros. He's both that filthy rich and made a good bit of his money on currency trading that didn't have a lot of good effects on others.

      *shrug* I guess if you're seen to be on the proper side politically, you get a get out of jail free card with them. Or if you can't, maybe we can just go through the crowd till we find someone who does think that. ;)

    63. Re:first thanks! by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      You are dumb, boy.

      Yet still I managed to get a medical degree.

      The bacteria, if deprived of nutrients for too long will simply go dormant, and won't reawaken until fresh nutrients appear.

      Ok, call me when you learn how to sporulate. As far as I know, humans can't do this yet. Maybe I slept through that class in med school.

      And unlike bacteria, we can escape the petri dish.

      Yes, Mars and Venus look like perfect little inhabitable planets for us. Sending people to start a colony there - assuming we could - automatically solves all the problems of the billions left here on Earth, right? Or do you plan to invent magic and we can all astral travel to the unicorn planet? And you call me the dumb one.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    64. Re:first thanks! by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Who said Soros has a get-out-of-jail-free card? The only thing he has going for him is his news organizations that do something other than parrot the corporate talking points and fabricate total lies to defame those they disagree with. But you can't deny that it takes somewhat less than $22 billion to live comfortably. Heck, Warren Buffet wants to be taxes more, but he's apparently not man enough to just donate money to the government (there is a number to call for that, actually).

    65. Re:first thanks! by DrBoumBoum · · Score: 1

      Indeed these technical challenges, together with energy storage, are infinitely too complex to tackle, and in fact not even worse considering (plus the sun doesn't shine at night). Let's bet our future on breeder and fusion reactors instead, those are right round the corner. One or two final adjustments and you'll get them at WallMart at discount prices.

    66. Re:first thanks! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      "Who said Soros has a get-out-of-jail-free card?"

      That's one of the problems with an adhocracy. Who says he doesn't? Leaving that unclear is a wise position right now.

      But, if it starts becoming clear that Soros, Buffet, and other individual and organizational benefactors (or at least useful ones) of the Democratic party are targets too, I suspect the statements of support from the Democratic politicians in general terms and the union members that have been showing up won't last for long. And I suspect the narrative that's put out by them in PR will change drastically as well. They will use Occupy as long as it's convenient and drop it like a dead mouse as soon as it isn't.

      As I said, this is all things to all people at the moment. And that's an advantage. It's also a liability. You have to take both, not just one.

      Why would I deny it takes less than that to live comfortably. I do on far less. In fact, oddly enough, I make a great deal less than friends of mine who are big Occupy supporters (to the point of going to the Chicago ones and doing work on them). What's even weirder is one of them is a corporate lawyer for a mega-corp. Oh well.

    67. Re:first thanks! by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Mosley, you never cease to amaze me. After demonstrating utter cluelessness when it comes to climatology and economics, you proceed straight to demonstrating that you have not the faintest idea of biology and thermodynamics either. Who would have thunk...

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    68. Re:first thanks! by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Ah, wealth accumulates at the top. The top 1 percent make more than they can ever spend - and then it ruins their heirs, whose profligate spending replenishes the economy while it kills off the line by discouraging ambition. The story is as old as time. It's a karmic balance of a sort, a punishment for greed that the estate you worked so hard to create will provide indulgences and excesses to your heirs until there is none of either. Once it's locked away in the wealth coffins it's not money any more. It's out of circulation and doesn't count until it's spent and does again. As Adolphus A. Busch put it so many years ago, "No matter how rich you are you can still only drink 35-40 beers a day." Sometimes when their active business life is done, they indulge in philanthropy - which has a spectrum of utility from abhorrent to a more intelligent dole than bureaucracy can provide. It doesn't matter in the larger scheme a whit because the wealth of the richest has nothing to do with the level of comfort of the poor. The two things are so distanced as to be in entirely different orbits.

      To be happy the obscenely wealthy need ever bigger numbers in their ledger whether it be writ in pencil or electrons or magnetic patterns. To them, that's what "winning" is. Let them have their game. To the rest of us their compulsion matters not at all.

      To be happy the poor are more complex. They need two things.

      The poor need sustenance: food, shelter, clothing, decent medical care, entertainment in their leisure, support when their productive days are done. We could do better at this. A society as productive as ours could set higher minimum standards for the dole. I think, particularly in medical care, established monopolies are oppressing the poor in an erroneous attempt to maximize their profit. These monopolies just need to be educated better about where the reasonable line is. The retired are a special issue. To not provide for folk when they've come unable to is to encourage youths to reproduce so they can be assured of children who survive to do so. This is a yeast-growth game we're sure to lose. The thing is that "unable" is a more difficult age to predict than "menses".

      The poor (most, anyway) also need a sense of purpose: work. This is a serious problem that untreated led to the end of every nation in history that ignored it. Nations generally get more efficient over time and that's a problem. An important role of government is to deplete the surplus productivity of its people. "Idle hands are the devil's workshop." Or perhaps "idle young men are the stuff revolutions are made of." This is not a new problem and the solution isn't new either: build pyramids. Yes, they had this problem in ancient Egypt and that's how they solved it. No, I'm not talking literal pyramids, but metaphorical ones. The pyramids were an aspirational goal, the workers contributing to great works worthy of their efforts: the building of a stairway to heaven. Every detail was an object of pride, immortal fame could be had contributing to this work. The efforts of building, tearing down and rebuilding pyramids and other great works gave workers who would be otherwise idle something worthwhile subjectively to do - some small part in a larger plan. This thinking got the US out of the Great Depression, with the WPA.

      We have in the world today a huge mass of idle people yearning for purpose but made redundant by modern efficiencies. Handled correctly this is not a problem, it's an asset. It's a source of power. Ask "what could I do with this many hands" and think huge. Give them something useful to do and sustain them while they do it. Refresh a national highway and rail system. Build out a national geothermal energy system. Put a colony on Phobos or Vesta, or in orbit around our moon. Reach for the stars. Build cities under the sea. Put a teacher's assistant in every classroom. Turn the Detroit metroplex to some useful purpose. Put teams to work painting and landscaping homes in blighted ne

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    69. Re:first thanks! by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Nice. Elegant, even.

    70. Re:first thanks! by robot256 · · Score: 1

      And I suspect the narrative that's put out by them in PR will change drastically as well. They will use Occupy as long as it's convenient and drop it like a dead mouse as soon as it isn't.

      Just like how the Republicans assimilated and neutralized the Tea Party, then. Have you noticed the coverage recently about Tea Party Republicans finding out how much they have in common with the Occupiers? My feeling is that the movement will end up being less partisan than the media currently makes them out to be.

      What's even weirder is one of them is a corporate lawyer for a mega-corp. Oh well.

      I agree, that is very weird. I guess I'm like you in that I don't know what to make of them either. Best thing I can think of was the Daily Show segment on the protests, where John Oliver asserts they are terrible at protesting...

    71. Re:first thanks! by Hartree · · Score: 1

      "Just like how the Republicans assimilated and neutralized the Tea Party"

      Yep. Controlling the Tea Party and channeling them has been the big project of the mainstream Republicans over the past year.

      The Tea Party tried to flex its newfound muscle from having a number of congress members affiliated and has had decidedly mixed results.

      Populist movements from across the right/left spectrum tend to have a lot of similarities. They benefit from relatively unfocused dissatisfaction that can then be bent in particular directions.

      To take an extreme example (Not comparing them to any of the current movements. They are in a class by themselves) The Nazis were noted for putting on soup kitchens and the like for the poor during the abysmal economy of the Weimar period. They had a slogan "Anyone who doesn't have a shirt can put on a brown one."

      And, I'll take the exception to the Godwin rule that I was really talking about the Nazis. ;)

    72. Re:first thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are studies that show that people who go to church regularly have larger families. Here is one just sample but with enough googling I am sure you can dig up others.

      http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/religion-and-family-connection-social-science-perspectives/chapter-3-religion-and-family-mi

      I'd look for a different study. Brigham Young University is a Mormon institution, and one of the central tenets of the Mormon religion is that people need to have large families. Given that, it's not surprising that there's a correlation between church attendance and family size.

    73. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      It is my experience that doctors don't know much at all about microbiology, but do tend to think they know everything. They also tend to think of themselves as Gods, which is why they always lose their life savings in Vegas.

      I guess doctors these days are so stupid they don't even understand the concept of metaphor, despite the fact that they try to use them to prove their pithy little opinions about how we are all going to die because there aren't infinite resources where we are right now.

    74. Re:first thanks! by tmosley · · Score: 1

      Funny, since I have proven to be the cooler head in every last one of those debates, while you have always proven to be the screaming ape who doesn't care to make valid arguments or use scientific principles.

      There isn't infinite energy, therefore we're all gonna die next Thursday!

  3. Centralia PA by vlm · · Score: 2

    Preliminary data released from the SMU study in October 2010 revealed the existence of a geothermal resource under the state of West Virginia equivalent to the state’s existing (primarily coal-based) power supply.

    Sure that's not Centralia PA?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania

    I have been using Centralia's zip code 17927 for years for places that don't deserve my real address. Back when Radio Shack used to collect demographic information every time someone bought a battery, that sort of thing.

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Centralia PA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not. The WV hot spot was found by oil and gas drilling and is about 5km down.

    2. Re:Centralia PA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Back when Radio Shack used to collect demographic information every time someone bought a battery, that sort of thing.

      They still did in 2008, at least; they wouldn't let me buy the batteries without giving my info, so they lost the sale.

    3. Re:Centralia PA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      987 Fakey Way
      Schenectady, NY 12345

      There are hoards of businesses that have this address for a Mr. Rusty Shackleford, and I can still buy batteries anonymously.

    4. Re:Centralia PA by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I go one better - I give them FALSE info. There's nothing like data corruption to come and bite you in the ass in 15 years.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Centralia PA by geekoid · · Score: 2

      except false information is often trivially easy to weed out, especially if it's repeated.

      Refusing gives them data that their customers aren't happy.

      OTOH RS use was to track what customers bought in what zip code so they could better server the specific needs of that area.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Centralia PA by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      And anyhow, Centrallia is about 200 miles from the West Virginia border.

      I like using the Zip though. I use Schenectady, NY as my throwaway zip code. 12345.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    7. Re:Centralia PA by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 1

      I've always used 742 Evergreen Terrace myself.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    8. Re:Centralia PA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They still try as of last week, but won't push the issue if you refuse.

    9. Re:Centralia PA by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      Well, if you have customers give you their zip code, you may notice people travelling some distance to their closest store. this gives you guidance as to where new stores should be opened.

      Also, if people are buying from stores that are not the closest to them it gives you a heads up to see what's wrong with that store.

    10. Re:Centralia PA by wintercolby · · Score: 1

      Actually, many retailers use your zip code to determine where they need to put new stores and what to put in them. If a lot of people come from a rural area to purchase goods, they'll look into putting a new store closer to that area. Strangely enough many people in marketing believe that the definition of their occupation is finding ways to better serve their customers. I'm not a fan of everything being driven by marketing, but it certainly makes sense when collecting data to make decisions about your retail locations. Don't give them your zip code, or give them a false zip code, if you don't want a Radio Shack near you that carries things you like to buy.

      --
      Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know. --Aldous Huxley
    11. Re:Centralia PA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats not geothermal. That's an underground mine fire. Geothermal implies using the heat of the earth itself, not a superficial(in geological terms) coal seam fire...

  4. And they said I was crazy to live on a volcano rim by elrous0 · · Score: 2

    Still think the gases are so bad NOW, Sheila?!?!?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  5. Drill baby drill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All over again...

    1. Re:Drill baby drill by jank1887 · · Score: 2

      the nice thing about geothermal: you're not actual bringing stuff up out of the ground. just heat. similar to sinking a well. local environment *can* me minimally impacted if done right.

    2. Re:Drill baby drill by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      realizing the map was taken at 6.5km deep, I guess its not the same as an oil well. average oil well depths are 4000-6000ft, or about 2km. So you'd have to go pretty deep for these, maybe not too similar to sinking a well.

    3. Re:Drill baby drill by Serenissima · · Score: 1

      Oil well depths vary greatly from field to field. It's not uncommon to see 12,000ft wells in most places around the country. Some areas in Wyoming are even hitting 25,000ft wells deep into the Madison Formation. It really depends on the formations and the field.

      --
      Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. But light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
    4. Re:Drill baby drill by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Depends on how it's done, some plants inject water into the ground and then run the steam that comes out through a turbine. Occasionally those turbines need to be cleaned and that's when a lot of arsenic and other nasty shit gets brought to the surface.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  6. Thorium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here's a link to a Google tech talk about Thorium, an often overlooked option we have. I consider it to be one of our best options to fuel the world. See what you think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZR0UKxNPh8

    1. Re:Thorium by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Ya but just wait till the Thorium starts building a web.

    2. Re:Thorium by Aryden · · Score: 1

      Bill Gates is investing heavily in the new gen 4, thorium based reactors. He did a really good interview a few months ago discussing the potentials and uses of nuclear. Quite insightful if I can find the link.

    3. Re:Thorium by BlueParrot · · Score: 2

      Thorium is a stupid move. You'd have to start the darn things on reprocessed plutonium anyway, so you may as well go with fast breeders ( The reprocessing step is the major obstacle at the moment ).

      Now while there may be some safety advantages with using molten salts as coolant, there is no reason why you could not do that in a fast neutron spectrum with plutonium and uranium. In fact, the latter would probably be easier since you could use much more common and less corrosive salts, like NaCl , MgCl or ZrCl , whereas the thorium versions would use Lithium and Beryllium fluorides.

  7. Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 0

    I've always had two issues with articles on geothermal

    1. What happens to the core when we start pumping large amounts of heat out of the core? How long until it cools enough for our magnetic field to collapse enough to be dangerous?

    2. What happens to the atmosphere when we pump all that heat from the core into it? How long until the oceans boil?

    Seems like very important questions to me...

    --
    -SaNo
    1. Re:Geothermal issues by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Funny

      Probably about the same time all those wind farms start blowing Earth off it's orbit.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    2. Re:Geothermal issues by jank1887 · · Score: 2

      1: who knows.

      2: right now, we'd be talking about substitutional energy. people will use geothermal heat where they'd normally use combustion derived heat. so, unless this enables increases in energy use beyond current expected rates of energy use, the net heat to the environment shouldn't be significantly different. of course, when people have their own private free energy source, I guess they'll use more energy. So there is that.

    3. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. What happens to the atmosphere when we pump all that heat from the core into it? How long until the oceans boil?
      Aren't we already doing that by pumping/digging out oil/coal and erm... burning it?

      But you do raise a valid point, how much heat can we sap before it becomes a problem? (or is the cooling effect on the earth's core negligible?)

    4. Re:Geothermal issues by scharkalvin · · Score: 3, Informative

      I hope those questions are a joke. Geothermal wells don't go any where deep enough to reach the core. In fact they remain in the mantle, the top layer of the earth. It's only where the core sends a plume of lava close to the surface that geo-thermal is possible. Removing any large amounts of energy from these plumes will make no difference in the core temperature. (about as much change as a fart in a hurricane).
      As for question #2, that is one of the limits to the amount of energy we can use on the surface of this planet, and a limit to growth of the human race.

    5. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't pump the heat out of the core, nor from the mantle, but from crust. Considering the scales involved, I wouldn't worry.

    6. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1. core is VERY VERY deep, not 6km, try 6000km
      2. it is believed the core of the planet is run on uranium :P
      3. no one knows exactly what causes magnetic field to exist as it does - some say iron core, others say water, etc.
      4. question #2, well, -_-

      Geothermal energy rises through the surface @ 1W/m2. Solar energy falls on the planet @ 1000W/m2 (more or less). Geothermal is much more reliable source of energy.

      Anyway, large scale geothermal will not work. Pumping large amount of heat involves pumping large amount of water. Geothermal can be considered mostly like oil - if you pump it fast enough, your hot spot will become a cold spot. Large scale extraction will also bring about its own problems, like geological instability as thermal stresses move the ground around a bit.

      Geothermal assisted heating and cooling for houses is a great idea though, especially if you live out in the sticks or close to large bodies of water. But for power generation, like 10GWe plant, well, not realistic.

    7. Re:Geothermal issues by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      1. hahaha, any idea how much heat you are talking about?
      2. hahaha, any idea how much heat you are talking about?

    8. Re:Geothermal issues by IDarkISwordI · · Score: 1

      Well geologists theorize that the Earth maintains iits liquid interior due to fusion in it's core, which is roughly the size of Mercury. The chance that humans could impact such a large object in an way, is pretty slim. A lot of heat escapes naturally anyway in the form of volcanic eruptions. As for the heat being pumped into the atmosphere, it won't happen. Power stations have cooling towers where the waste steam condenses back to water form and is cleaned and reused.

      Really geothermal plants operate just as any other heat driven plants do, by directing super heated water through turbines. The benefit is that you don't have to burn anything to get the steam so it's practically no pollution.

    9. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point 2 is a non-issue because heat radiates to space.

      Point 1 worries me, but not because of the magnetic field. The could be other problems...

    10. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      I know the latter will eventually happen by burning fossil fuels, too. However, if we have more energy available, we might accelerate it. Would using solar negate that as the heat from the sun would get here regardless? I don't know. The former would also happen eventually but how much faster would wecause it by using millions of megawatts of geothermal a year? Anyway, some maths to back up our completely-fucked-ness (or un-fucked-ness) would be nice.

      --
      -SaNo
    11. Re:Geothermal issues by kenboldt · · Score: 1

      I've always had two issues with articles on geothermal

      1. What happens to the core when we start pumping large amounts of heat out of the core? How long until it cools enough for our magnetic field to collapse enough to be dangerous?

      2. What happens to the atmosphere when we pump all that heat from the core into it? How long until the oceans boil?

      Seems like very important questions to me...

      Please, for the love of deity, tell me you are joking... geothermal wells are, at most, about 3 km deep. Estimates for the deepest are about 10 km, and that would be terribly, and likely, cost prohibitive.

      The earth's OUTER core is 2890 km deep, and the inner core is 5150 km deep. We won't be pumping any heat our of the core, and we certainly won't be pumping enough out to cool it enough for our magnetic field to collapse, unless of course you are in possession of some fantastic new drilling technology that the world has yet not discovered.

    12. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, I'm not a geologist or a physicist or whatever type of ist you need to be to be an expert on these sorts of things, but I have had enough physics to know that when you take heat energy away from a source and transfer it to another place, the source gets colder unless there is some other force of energy feeding the source. So how long is geothermal sustainable under high demand? Also how is messing with the "climate" in and under the Earth's crust any better than messing with the climate above Earth's crust? How long before the environmental wackos start to panic about GeoCooling?

    13. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From what I understand, geothermal wells remain in the earth's crust, the outer layer above the upper mantle. Your overall explanation seems otherwise correct if you simply substitute crust for mantle.

    14. Re:Geothermal issues by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      It is already leaking out. What do you think those sea floor vents are?

      Nuclear reactions are one big source of heat that deep. The scale we are talking at all of humanities energy usage would be a rounding error.

    15. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      I know it only stays in the crust; but the heat from the core will eventually migrate out of the core, into the mantle, then into our geothermal pumps grasp.

      --
      -SaNo
    16. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      I never said it would be instantaneous. However, if we are looking for long-term solutions, a couple thousand years should be considered in my opinion. (Though, personally, I don't think the human race will survive another couple hundred, but that's another debate.)

      --
      -SaNo
    17. Re:Geothermal issues by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      I know the latter will eventually happen by burning fossil fuels, too.

      No it won't. If we burn fossil fuels at today's rate, there are only 30-odd years of fossil fuels left. Even less if our energy needs keep expanding. What you expected it to last forever?

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    18. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      If we pump heat out faster than it escapes naturally (even from the crust, the heat from the core WILL migrate out and cooling the crust will accelerate the heat transfer from the mantle and, in turn, the crust) there will be consequences. Will it be hundreds of years, thousands, millions? That's all I want to know.

      --
      -SaNo
    19. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      I just want to see someone do the math and prove it.

      --
      -SaNo
    20. Re:Geothermal issues by Arlet · · Score: 1

      #2: that's already happening. Heat from the core is constantly diffusing into the crust and then the atmosphere. Even with our best efforts, we're not going to change the rate at which that happens by a measurable amount.

      This heat is only a small fraction of the heat we get from above, so no worries.

    21. Re:Geothermal issues by kikito · · Score: 2

      1. The decrease in temperature will contract the core, leaving big caves beneath the crust. All volcanoes will cease activity. Then the dinosaurs will be able to climb up through them and invade us.
      2. We'll move inside the giant subterranean caves, which were inhabited by the dinosaurs. We'll sell all their treasures and be rich.

    22. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The emissions from my big fat hummer are a fart in a hurricane too, so I'll just keep on truckin'...

    23. Re:Geothermal issues by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Damn, you're all semantic crazy-people. Burning fossil fuels + fission + fusion + burning baby tears. I'm more asking that if we COULD replace all our current energy sources with geothermal, what is the net outcome either a net gain or loss of excess heat into the atmosphere and from the stuff beneath our feet (core + mantle + crust)

      --
      -SaNo
    24. Re:Geothermal issues by chronoglass · · Score: 1

      my only worry is the problems I've heard about earthquakes near these things.. i mean sure.. you can power a city, but if it falls over every 2 years because of the increase in activity.. then what?

    25. Re:Geothermal issues by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Fission, not fusion.

    26. Re:Geothermal issues by dr_leviathan · · Score: 2

      The amount of heat leaking out of the core already is MUCH larger than anything added by geothermal power plants, by several orders of magnitude. The surface area of the Earth is huge, which means its thermodynamic coupling to the atmosphere and oceans proportionally high. When you compute the thermal output of a single lava volcano should find that it dwarfs the sum of all deployed geothermal power plants and probably our worldwide energy needs. All of this heat eventually leaks into the atmosphere already except that part that radiates directly into space through the air.

      Some geothermal plant designs do have problems. For example, those that tap directly into hot water and release it as steam can introduce some poisons (arsenic, acids, salts) from underground that build up in the nearby topsoil, which will kill local plants and produce a small "toxic" dump. However, there are other designs that could use a temperature gradient to run a thermodynamic engine, such as the SustainX compressed air energy storage idea:

      http://ecogeek.org/component/content/article/3620

      While that is mostly for storing energy, if there were a sufficiently steep temperature gradient (boiling hot ground to ice cold water) then such a storage engine could exceed 100% "efficiency" and produce positive power without leaking any undrground water into the environment.

      --
      Religion is poison to rationality, and we lose sight of that at our own peril. -- Lurker2288
    27. Re:Geothermal issues by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1. What happens to the core when we start pumping large amounts of heat out of the core? How long until it cools enough for our magnetic field to collapse enough to be dangerous?

      Here's a fascinating thought experiment that might interest you: What is cold weather?

      It's so easy to say that cold weather is the movement of cold air, but that's wrong. "Cold" is not a force or some sort of negative energy that gets applied during winter. Cold is what happens when, if even for a moment, we stop getting enough sunlight to make up for the energy that's lost to space. Every single winter of every single year (and remember that summer on one hemisphere is winter on the other), huge swaths of the planet are losing energy to space. It's enough to bring the frost line of soil down several feet just in the northern US--I'd hate to think how deep it penetrates in Canada.

      There is no comparison of the surface area affected by severe winters to the surface area of geothermal wells, and as such, there is no comparing the energy loss between the two.

      And keep in mind, nobody's suggesting drilling into the mantle, let alone the core. That's known as a volcano. We don't really have materials to safely handle that sort of well. And the crust of the earth is so remarkably thin compared to the size of the mantle... well, I'm not sure we'll have to worry about it for millenia if not more.

    28. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2. What happens to the atmosphere when we pump all that heat from the core into it? How long until the oceans boil?

      If we continue with our current growth in energy use, we will reach a surface temperature of 100C in 400 years. It doesn't matter if the energy comes from geothermal or nuclear or fossil sources. It's pure thermodynamics.

    29. Re:Geothermal issues by kenboldt · · Score: 2

      I guarantee that many many many many many many generations from now, the kids of the kids of the people of that time will not have to worry about it.

      I think you need to get a grip on scale.

    30. Re:Geothermal issues by MikeyC01 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The chance that humans could impact such a large object in an way, is pretty slim.

      This argument sounds familiar for some reason ...

    31. Re:Geothermal issues by Baloroth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wait, this question was serious? The heat from the mantle will eventually migrate upwards anyways. And turning it into electricity won't introduce more heat into our atmosphere than we already are from burning coal/ natural gas. Considerably less so, especially without any CO2 production.

      Geothermal can last a long, long time. Although I should point out that scharkalvin is wrong (about this one): Google's EGS plan doesn't use geothermal plumes like most geothermal power does, it just uses the Earth's natural heat at about 6.5km down (which occurs everywhere to various degrees.) Hence, the gradient map.

      Oh, and lest we forget, sun unleashes something like 1*10^17 joules of energy on the Earth per second. It would take an absolute shitload of geothermal stations, probably more than we could ever effectively build, to add any considerable amount to that.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    32. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymus · · Score: 2

      If we don't figure out an energy solution better than geothermal in "a couple thousand years" I don't think we deserve to survive.

    33. Re:Geothermal issues by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Already done, a poster further up showed how much heat we lose to space vs human energy usage.

    34. Re:Geothermal issues by jfengel · · Score: 1

      "Eventually" means "millions of years".

      It might be possible to tap out a geothermal well, cooling it down faster than the local heat sources can put more heat in. But the effect will be limited to the top crust, not even reaching the bottom crust, much less the mantle or the core.

      Yes, in a technical sense it will eventually affect those things, too, but not in any way you'd be able to measure for millions of years. If we find a way to take out energy faster than that, everything in technology will change anyway.

    35. Re:Geothermal issues by Arlet · · Score: 1

      The greenhouse effect dwarfs any direct changes we could make in generating heat. So, if we could replace burning fossil fuels with geothermal, we would slow down the global warming due to CO2 greenhouse effect.

    36. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 2

      According to this guy, we have about 450 years until the oceans boil, no matter where we get the energy from. Scariest. blog. ever.

    37. Re:Geothermal issues by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Citation please? If you've used any numbers at all to derive that, you've extrapolated a curve based on the assumption that it's exponential. If that couple next door that had a baby 3 years ago, and twins 2 years after that continues the trend, they'll have 16000 children by the time she reaches menopause. What, praytell could we be neglecting in our analysis of these trends?

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    38. Re:Geothermal issues by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 1

      LOL! yeah, and the ISS is causing all the hurricane storms of late

    39. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've always had two issues with articles on geothermal
      1. What happens to the core when we start pumping large amounts of heat out of the core? How long until it cools enough for our magnetic field to collapse enough to be dangerous?
      2. What happens to the atmosphere when we pump all that heat from the core into it? How long until the oceans boil?
      Seems like very important questions to me...

      I guess high-school science class isn't what it used to be. That's what happens when you gut the education system. :-(

    40. Re:Geothermal issues by kenboldt · · Score: 1

      HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

      Who let Al "several million degrees" Gore onto Slashdot?

    41. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not as bad as fossil fuels for 2 reasons: (a) some of that heat would already be entering the biosphere (and we are just using it for useful work now), and (2) greenhouse gas effects massively dominate direct thermal output of any of our power generating methods (and geothermal shouldn't release any such gases).

      However, it is not as good as solar (which doesn't introduce any new heat or greenhouse gases).

      On a side note, the core produces something on the order of a few terawatts of energy. Human consumption is on the order of ~15 terawatts. You are right that we cannot expect geothermal to give us everything we need, but a few hundred relatively shallow wells can't have much effect on overall core temperature. If we started talking thousands, or very deep wells then we might have a problem. But not for a while.

    42. Re:Geothermal issues by canajin56 · · Score: 2

      The atmosphere has about 1/1000 of the mass of the outer (molten) core. Temperature is average energy per unit mass. So if you want the average global temperature up by 100 Kelvin so all the water boils off, that'll involve transferring enough energy from the outer core to lower it by, 0.1 Kelvin? (Except that obviously the crust and oceans are absorbing heat from the air...still, the oceans and surface are pretty light compared to the core, too, so you get a number more like 10 K cooler core = boiling surface. 10K being enough to freeze a bunch of the outer core, but not to the point of magnetosphere collapse) So, 2 happens well before 1. But does 2 happen? No. Geothermal heat is no different than coal heat or nuclear heat. It heats the air, but the air is in thermal equilibrium with the sun, and so being hotter means it emits more energy (blackbody radiation, yo) and cools off, balance is restored. It gets complicated because hotter air alters the vapor pressure equilibrium with surface water, so that means more clouds (higher atmospheric albedo, so less solar radiation absorbed by the surface) but it also means more water vapor in the air (as a polar molecule, water lets most sunlight through unmolested, but when the blackbody infrared from the surface/air hits it, it gets absorbed and remitted so a portion of the spaceward infrared ends up coming back to the surface, further mucking up the nice simple thermal equilibrium equations in a non-linear manner, which frankly is just plain rude). But unless we start replacing gigawatt powerplants with 1000 terrawatt geothermal stations, it's not going to alter the average air temperature. Because we're already emitting heat, and it doesn't do a damn thing to the temperature. More or less the atmosphere is in equilibrium, and adding energy directly cannot disrupt that equilibrium.

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    43. Re:Geothermal issues by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Nickel-iron fission, right? Sigh ... the whole thing is a big spinning metal magnet orbiting another big spinning metal magnet. The torque created rotates the core. Don't you think a spinning core would produce a lot of heat from friction?

    44. Re:Geothermal issues by Arancaytar · · Score: 2

      The earth is about one trillion cubic kilometers big, and most of that is molten. Volcanoes have spewed up rivers of liquid rock for billions of years. You tell me whether it's negligible. ;)

    45. Re:Geothermal issues by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      Wolfram Alpha says: mass of the earth / (mass of the atmosphere) = 1.2 x 10^6.

      Basically:

      • We've only changed the average temperature of the Earth's atmosphere by less than a degree in a hundred years
      • The rest of the Earth is a million times more massive
      • We're not directly changing the temperature of the atmosphere -- the greenhouse effect is doing most of the work. Basically, we're not concerned about how hot your car's engine is, we're concerned about the effect of the emissions.
    46. Re:Geothermal issues by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Umm, no. there are 100's of years of fossil fuels. see:Coal.
      The issue is it's changing the planet and poisoning us.

      And probably 100 years of oil.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    47. Re:Geothermal issues by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Imagine sucking the entire world's ocean through a straw.

      Now, imagine that the ocean extends through the entire thickness of the planet, instead of only a few thin kilometers.

      Now you understand how little effect geothermal could possibly have.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    48. Re:Geothermal issues by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We don't really have materials to safely handle that sort of well.

      It's called steel. You pump a liquid coolant at high pressure through a steel lance to keep the temperature down below the melting point, and run the coolant through a mechanically cooled heat sink. Cool the cold side of the system with a big tower (boiling water) or a big surface ground sink (-10C, but needs massive surface area so a tower is going to work better).

    49. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cold weather is defined as living in Minnesota in late January and early February. Go ahead, take that thought experiment for a while and consider -40F ambient temperatures and argue that it's not "cold".

    50. Re:Geothermal issues by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      This whole boiling our oceans thing is silly. Sapping the heat percolating up from core and subsequent layers isn't going to add any heat to the surface/atmosphere. That heat is already getting out, it just happens to be over a more dispersed area, namely the whole bloody surface where it eventually radiates into space. All GTE is doing is channeling that already escaping energy into a heat sink so that it can be used to perform work. The worst anyone could come up with would be creating localized heat islands that "could" impact weather patterns. However, we're already accomplishing this through combustion and fission power sources. We're already doing this through the aggregation and expenditure of energy in our cities.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    51. Re:Geothermal issues by hawguy · · Score: 1

      Removing any large amounts of energy from these plumes will make no difference in the core temperature. (about as much change as a fart in a hurricane).

      I lived through a hurricane once in a small beach house. Someone in the house farted and conditions suddenly were far worse for all of us.

      If what you say is true, then the entire earth will take on a distinct odor of brimstone if this plan continues.

    52. Re:Geothermal issues by geekoid · · Score: 1

      How about some numbers? Underestimating scale is what humans do. You are going with a'gut feeling'; which is a stupid way to approach this.

      How much geothermal needs to be moved in order to get 30 PWh of energy..yes PWh.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    53. Re:Geothermal issues by radtea · · Score: 1

      I've always had two issues with articles on geothermal

      I've always had two issues with people on /.: their complete lack of mathematical and physical literacy and awareness of scales.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    54. Re:Geothermal issues by nschubach · · Score: 1

      It's a possibility... if nobody is looking for an alternative. Look at alternative power today. If people weren't all up in arms about oil, the research money wouldn't be spent on something we didn't want (because we have oil...)

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    55. Re:Geothermal issues by geekoid · · Score: 1

      " Even with our best efforts, we're not going to change the rate at which that happens by a measurable amount."
      http://tinyurl.com/4ybhdw8

      don't underestimate human ability to change the world..
      Just so you know, to replace current energy need with geothermal, we would need about 30PWh per year. So, how much geo thermal heat is that?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    56. Re:Geothermal issues by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Yes extrapolating 2 data points in 3 years into an exponential curve to curve out to 30 years would be silly. Extrapolating 400 years of data out another 400 years is less silly.

      The economy is based on 2-3% annual growth, so if that exponential curve doesn't continue we are all screwed anyway.

    57. Re:Geothermal issues by j-beda · · Score: 2

      Imagine sucking the entire world's ocean through a straw.

      Not quite a straw, but today's xkcd seems to be pumping it all into Narnia through a wardrobe: http://xkcd.com/969/

    58. Re:Geothermal issues by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 1

      It's not just the heat of the magma (although I think you're underestimating that); it's also pressure. As soon as you breach the mantle (if not before), violently hot molten rock is going to have a place it can go where it can relieve the pressure of miles of rock sitting on it.

      Keep in mind the forces you're talking about. Volcanoes don't throw out tons of ash and molten rock because it wants to fly. Tons and tons of material are given upward momentum because of pressure from below.

      (IANAGeologist)

    59. Re:Geothermal issues by pspahn · · Score: 1

      Negligible is simply a matter of scale.

      A couple hundred years ago, the effects from burning fossil fuels in a few industrially advanced population centers around the world were negligible. Today, not so much.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    60. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 5, Interesting

      A hurricane has about 6e14 W. You might be able to create somewhere around 8kJ/day if you found a way to harness all your gas. That's about 1e-1 W. That's a difference of 15 orders of magnitude.

      The earth has geothermal energy of about 1e31 J. 15 orders of magnitude less than that is 1e16J. That's less than what Zimbabwe uses annually. The core is radioactively replenished at 30TW. As of 2007 there was already 10GW of geothermal electric capacity. That's only 4 orders of magnitude. So no, it's not a fart in a hurricane. I am flabbergasted by these findings. I thought for sure you were right.

    61. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Please somebody find an error in my math or science. I would hate for this to be true.

    62. Re:Geothermal issues by Arlet · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand. Geothermal flux from the core to the surface is about 30TW, without any use of geothermal reactors.

      Now, imagine we capture a part of that energy, say 3TW, convert it to electricity, and use that electricity for light and motors. Most of that 3TW is going to end up as heat, just as it was before we harvested it.

      So, we're not going to change that 30TW heat source in any significant way.

    63. Re:Geothermal issues by kenboldt · · Score: 1

      See elsewhere from other posters for numbers. The original questions were silly, and deserving of equally silly answers.

      If I am underestimating scale, that means that using geothermal is even LESS of problem than I am implying. Basically geekoid, I think you and I are on the same page, that there is essentially no way that we are going to cause the oceans to boil or our core to stop spinning by using geothermal.

    64. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      But by burning coal and releasing CO2 in the atmosphere we are negatively affecting the earth? This is the part that never makes sense to me about Global climate change. How can we do one thing and not affect the earth, but do another and destroy it?

      I'm not saying climatologists are wrong, just asking a serious question.

      I am for geothermal energy, when I build my house next year, I plan on putting in a geothermal heat pump to help with the electricity costs, and probably adding solar panels to the entire roof to help even more. I'm also for nuclear energy, since it's mostly safe in the long run. I have a nuclear power plant (relatively speaking, it's about an hour away) in my backyard. But we should start testing the effects of removing heat from the earth on a large scale and see how the models react. Sometimes the solutions can be worse than the problems we already have.

    65. Re:Geothermal issues by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Umm, no. there are 100's of years of fossil fuels. see:Coal.

      [citation needed] But that's ok I will provide them.

      First, I dare you to design coal-powered cars and airplanes.

      Second, yet another person who doesn't know how to divide. According to the US government, there are about 2.75 x 10^11 short tons of coal in the US. That 275 billion tons may seem like a lot. Now consider that the US currently is consuming (again according to the US government) over a billion tons a year. That means that at current levels of production, there are under 275 years worth of coal left. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it?

      Now consider that US coal production is not fixed but is growing every year - and will grow even faster when oil starts getting seriously expensive because it's running out, and you have far less than 275 years remaining. In fact you may not even have 100 years remaining. Especially when you also consider your population is doubling every 50 years or so. Who cares, in 100 years we will all be dead right? Yeah, but when it's gone, it's gone forever.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    66. Re:Geothermal issues by istartedi · · Score: 1

      OK, flawed analogy. It's not the number of data points. The takeaway was supposed to be that there are constraints. Society's "womb" can't crank out that many "babies".

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    67. Re:Geothermal issues by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0
      I'm not sure we'll have to worry about it for millenia if not more

      This is exactly the sort of pigheaded ignorance that got us into the carbon crisis we're in now. If there is an environmental cost for geothermal, we pay that up front, right now, instead of just letting corporations get rich from plundering our own planet's heat. Let's do the research first before we start tampering with things we don't understand. Fucking anti-science douchebags!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    68. Re:Geothermal issues by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      How much geothermal needs to be moved in order to get 30 PWh of energy..yes PWh.

      Say, about 20 TW, depending on the efficiency of the process. Could be as high as 30 (quite possible, but not too likely), or as low as 10 (barely possible).

      So, yes, we'd be extracting it faster than it was being generating it within a very short time.

      Or does everyone really think that China, India, and the rest of the world are going to continue to live in squalor just so we can maintain our standard of living?

      As to how long before it's a problem? A few million years, probably.

      Note that the above assumes no fundamental problems with geothermal. Nothing unforeseen, like, say, AGW (which certainly wasn't foreseen when we began burning coal centuries ago).

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    69. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But by burning coal and releasing CO2 in the atmosphere we are negatively affecting the earth? This is the part that never makes sense to me about Global climate change. How can we do one thing and not affect the earth, but do another and destroy it?

      Geothermal is transferring relatively tiny amounts of heat into the atmosphere. CO2 is allowing for more of the HUGE amounts of heat poured into the system by the sun to remain trapped. So relatively small amounts of the gas can have outsized effects.

      Also, no one would argue that global climate change will "destroy" the earth; it will, however, change things in a way which make it harder for humans to live - larger and more frequent storms and drought, flooding etc.

    70. Re:Geothermal issues by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Nickel-iron fission, right? Sigh ... the whole thing is a big spinning metal magnet orbiting another big spinning metal magnet. The torque created rotates the core. Don't you think a spinning core would produce a lot of heat from friction?

      Might.

      On the other hand, don't you think there might be a metric buttload of uranium down there, doing radioactive decay for billions of years?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    71. Re:Geothermal issues by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      The original question is pretty silly given the heat capacity and current heat generation rate. The question about environmental impact of removing large amounts of wind energy are not nearly as silly. Assuming you ignore the birds and bats, just a back-of-the-envelope calculation of the energy contained in the atmosphere up to about 150 feet and the amount you might take out of it suggests you can't just dismiss the issue entirely. Depending on the density of the windmills it certainly seems possible to affect the weather locally.

    72. Re:Geothermal issues by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Hey! What's this post from 30 years ago doing here in 2011?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    73. Re:Geothermal issues by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The answer to both is never, because the Sun will expand and eat the Earth before either effect is measurable.

    74. Re:Geothermal issues by compro01 · · Score: 2

      First, I dare you to design coal-powered cars and airplanes.

      You can convert coal into gasoline and diesel via several coal liquefaction processes. Germany did it during WW2 when they got into oil supply problems.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    75. Re:Geothermal issues by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      This is the part that never makes sense to me about Global climate change. How can we do one thing and not affect the earth, but do another and destroy it?

      This is the part that never makes sense to me about social relations. How can I do one thing and not affect anybody, but do something else and kill somebody?

    76. Re:Geothermal issues by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Yeah and look where it got them. I'm not saying it can't be done - it can. This does not create new energy. In fact, it consumes even more energy than before.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    77. Re:Geothermal issues by hugh+nicks · · Score: 1

      I don't want to sound like a dink, but isn't it called magma when it's below the crust, and only lava when ejected?

    78. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a nut job...

        Geothermal power isn't "pumping large amount of heat out of the core", it's pumping small amount of heat from the mantle under the crust.

        Just get a clue please. the orders of magnitude you're comparing... It's like saying what if I tried to screw Warren buffets investments with my piggy bank.

        Or in more slashdoty terms : it's like trying to do real time full HD 3D with a 8086.

        As for the 2nd question you apparently didn't understand how geothermal energy works. You pump water in, it heats up, you get it back hotter and under pressure, it goes into a turbine a generate electricity. It generate 10 times less heat than say a nuclear plant and even less than an Oil plant or a Coal plant.

    79. Re:Geothermal issues by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      "Eventually" means "millions of years".

      Yes, and "millions" means "hundreds."

    80. Re:Geothermal issues by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And all that use of solar energy is going to burn out the sun faster!

    81. Re:Geothermal issues by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Ok forgive me for being completely ignorant of planetary physics but... if it's experiencing friction shouldn't it slow down eventually?

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    82. Re:Geothermal issues by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Damn, you're all semantic crazy-people.

      Welcome to /. ;)

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    83. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      So you're answer is to avoid the question?

      I'm sure there will be unexpected consequences to tapping the earth for geothermal power. They are probably not as bad as CO2 gas, but they should be studied now. This is why we are in the mess we are in now. We take new technology and use it until we have a problem. Then we realize there is no easy solution to get out of the problem that has been caused.

    84. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      But by burning coal and releasing CO2 in the atmosphere we are negatively affecting the earth? This is the part that never makes sense to me about Global climate change. How can we do one thing and not affect the earth, but do another and destroy it?

      You have this huge heat source, the Sun which keeps the Earth warm. The theory is that increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere is like throwing on a blanket. It's harder for heat to radiate to space and the Earth grows a bit warmer in response until the heat radiated into space once again balances the heat that reaches Earth from the Sun.

    85. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1
      It was an over-the-top question. Remember that phrase "destroy the Earth"?

      I'm sure there will be unexpected consequences to tapping the earth for geothermal power. They are probably not as bad as CO2 gas, but they should be studied now. This is why we are in the mess we are in now. We take new technology and use it until we have a problem. Then we realize there is no easy solution to get out of the problem that has been caused.

      Except by innovating new solutions. That route works pretty well. Geothermal power is actually fairly well known. It's been around a while (used by the Icelanders for centuries, for example).

      As I recall, the biggest problems with it are 1) that it is partly a depletable resource (the long term power generation capacity is something like half the short term), 2) a lot of toxic metals and corrosive salts get into the working fluid (typically water) resulting in a variety of environmental and maintenance issues, and 3) if there are any natural geothermal features about, geothermal power generation tends to rob them of heat.

    86. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      Now that's an answer I can live with. But how can we be sure that geothermal power won't cause something more drastic. I agree that the atmosphere is much les space to screw with than the earths crust. I would rather ask these questions now, rather than have generations in hundreds or thousands of years go, wtf were they thinking draining the heat from the earths core, how in the hell do we restart the earths core.

      One problem off the top of my head is massive cooling of the oceans messing with weather patterns and cooling off large parts of the world increasing our dependence on geothermal heat, which will spiral out of control freezing the earths surface?

    87. Re:Geothermal issues by omnichad · · Score: 1

      According to the article that provided wikipedia with the 30TW number:

      Without utilization, the terrestrial heat flow is lost to the
      atmosphere. In this case, the isotherms run parallel to the
      earth’s surface (i.e. horizontal in flat terrain) and the perpendicular
      heat flow lines point towards it. If, instead, the isotherms
      are deformed and the heat flow lines diverted towards
      heat sinks, the heat flow can be captured (Figure 1). Production
      of heat/fluid from geothermal reservoirs leads to the formation
      of such heat sinks and/or hydraulic pressure depressions.
      Their effects will be treated in more detail below.

      If we're just capturing heat that would be radiated away from Earth anyway, then we'd hit a hard limit above X TW, but we wouldn't cool the Earth at an accelerated pace because we're not digging deep enough to change the conduction of heat outside a localized area.

    88. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      On a small scale nothing is really bad, it's the large scale that fucks everything up.

      I doubt Henry Ford knew he was causing one of the largest natural disasters ever.

    89. Re:Geothermal issues by Temujin_12 · · Score: 1

      about as much change as a fart in a hurricane

      Yes, but imagine a fart for every man, woman, and child, all at the same time in the same hurricane. Not because it counters your statement--just because it is funny to imagine.

      --
      Faith is a willingness to accept something w/o complete proof and to act on it. Reason allows you to correct that faith.
    90. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      But how can we be sure that geothermal power won't cause something more drastic.

      Two reasons. First, we can see how much heat it releases into the atmosphere versus other sources like solar. That incidentally gives many orders of magnitude less heat effect from geothermal than for solar. Similarly, there's a vast heat content in the Earth's core which we can't scratch. (For example, the energy leaked or released from the Yellowstone hotspot over millions of years (including massive caldera eruptions) probably is more than sufficient on its own to power the US. And it is a negligible source compared to what's down there.) Second, we can see the effects of all the geothermal projects we've done to date.

      One problem off the top of my head is massive cooling of the oceans messing with weather patterns and cooling off large parts of the world increasing our dependence on geothermal heat, which will spiral out of control freezing the earths surface?

      We call that sort of thing an "ice age" and yes, it is a long term problem, but not one that is going to be affected by geothermal power.

    91. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If using a magnetic moment of 6.4e21 A m^2 for the earth and assuming the field lined up such as to give a torque in the direction of Earth's rotation, with a very generous interplanetary field of 50 nT, that gives a power of about 20 GW, which is kind of small compared to the 40-50 TW of power expected to be coming out of the core. And this is way over estimating the power transferred by fields like that since: The torque would be perpendicular to Earth's magnetic moment which is pretty close to its rotation axis, so very little work would be done if the Earth does not turn in the direction of the torque. And the direction of the magnetic field from the sun cyclically flips with the solar cycle, so unless the added energy is removed by friction on the time scale of years, the sun's field would just remove most of the energy it deposited in the previous cycle.

    92. Re:Geothermal issues by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Yes, eventually. The idea is that since it's magnetic (through the virtue of spinning), it's affected by magnetic fields. Since the sun is magnetic (and god damn BIG), it's going to affect the object orbiting it.

      We know the core rotates, and we know the earth orbits the sun. No sane physicist (or grade schooler that took third grade science) is going to argue that spinning molten metal is magically frictionless--lubricated by being molten, maybe (at pressure it could be a SOLID core, but if it spins there is a molten layer or at least gravel--but metal gravel would eventually mash together and weld from heat and pressure, and besides we've done testing with P-waves and S-waves and fancy science to determine that there's a large liquid core), but lubrication is not frictionless.

      In short: there IS friction.

    93. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      Makes sense to me; we won't be cooling the core at any usage level below 30TW. If we were directly tapping the core, and there were no radioactive replenishment, the thermal energy comes to about 20,000,000,000 years at current usage levels. I'm not sure where along the line we would run into magnetic field problems, but it will be way after I'm dead, so it doesn't matter. Still, not a fart in a hurricane. ;-)

    94. Re:Geothermal issues by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      I think it would be a net reduction in heat into the atmosphere because geothermal energy is already getting out but isn't serving any useful purpose when it does. So, using what gets out for useful purposes and then cutting back on the stuff we use to generate energy already will mean less extra heat pumped into the atmosphere. Secondly, less heat because fewer greenhouse gasses are released in the process of obtaining energy, so less retained heat.

      Thirdly, on your whole catastrophic scenario thing - the sun pelts the earth with some ridiculous amount of energy constantly. The human race uses something like 15 terawatts (that's 1.5x10^13 watts) per year. The sun hits us with something like 1.2x10^17 watts per *second*. So, every second, we're absorbing 4 orders of magnitude (roughly) more energy from the sun than we release in a year, and have been doing so for several billion years, and our oceans haven't boiled away yet; therefore it seems logical to assume that being more efficient about energy use would delay or be irrelevant to oceanic boiling.

      Mind you, these are just my own guesses based off of not being a complete idiot and having a vague understanding of how things work from my distant high school past, with any numbers used being pulled from my memory or being the easiest ones picked up from a quick googling.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    95. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      I doubt Henry Ford knew he was causing one of the largest natural disasters ever.

      I doubt we know that either.

    96. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      Technically it's his fault since he introduced an easy way to mass produce items. I know someone somewhere would have come to the same conclusion, but hes the one that did it. By mass producing cars, he is the root cause of climate change.

    97. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of heating effects down there. Tidal forces, fission of uranium and thorium,, and the initial heat of the formation of the Earth are the three main ones.

    98. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      But calling climate change a "disaster" is a big stretch. This false certainty is what I was referring to in my previous post.

    99. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      Aw, I understand.

    100. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are important questions, but they are I believe irrelevant by orders of magnitude And they are readily answerable if you think about it for a scant minute. Some exercises a high school student could do include:

      Compare the amount of extra-planetary radiation pummelling our planet to the amount of heat that would be released if we powered everything via geothermal.

      Consider: if you derive your power from geothermal heat, then you will be displacing more traditional sources of -- ummmm--- heat.

    101. Re:Geothermal issues by Captain+Jo+Jo · · Score: 1

      Actually, mankind must be content with the knowledge that we haven't drilled into the Earth's mantle yet; we're still poking around in the crust. I believe the current record is about 12.3 km depth in the Al-Shaheen field in Qatar - the depth to an oil reservoir. 12.3 km is MUCH deeper than any current geothermal well and still within the Earth's crust.

      Granted, the base of the crust may be as shallow as ~7-10 km (oceanic crust), and we certainly have samples of mantle material (e.g. kimberlites and other volcanoes - though often with crustal contamination), we just haven't haven't drilled down through the transition from crust to upper mantle yet.

      As a complete side note, if you ever get a chance to handle and iron meteorite you're actually holding a piece of the core of a small planet that was destroyed.

      It is unlikely that Governor Tarkin played any role in its destruction.

    102. Re:Geothermal issues by s122604 · · Score: 1

      Does your "back of the envelope" calculation take into account that the human race has basically denuded HUGE swaths of the globe of their natural tree cover?

      Before Columbus a squirrel could go from what was Savannah GA to what would be Chicago (or go back another couple thousand years, from Paris to Moscow if you prefer European Geography) and never touch the ground..
      Think about how that affects wind currents as they move across the globe...
      If anything, windmills bring things closer to an natural state, not farther.

    103. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The core is radioactively replenished at 30TW

      Seems a bit small. Cannot find the source of this in the wikipedia reference.

    104. Re:Geothermal issues by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Makes sense to me; we won't be cooling the core at any usage level below 30TW. If we were directly tapping the core, and there were no radioactive replenishment, the thermal energy comes to about 20,000,000,000 years at current usage levels. I'm not sure where along the line we would run into magnetic field problems, but it will be way after I'm dead, so it doesn't matter. Still, not a fart in a hurricane. ;-)

      The sun is going to die first before we extract all the heat out of the Earth, basically (I think the Sun has what, 6-9 billion years left?). And when it becomes a red giant, it's going to expand so big it'll encompass earth's orbit. Even then, as we get close the sun will make the earth rather hot to live on.

      Basically, it's a free for all - the planet will be long uninhabitable before the core cools down... though the magnetic field is a still a question.

    105. Re:Geothermal issues by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Any electric car can run on coal. Small electric planes can too.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    106. Re:Geothermal issues by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      First, I dare you to design coal-powered cars and airplanes.

      That's pretty much where electric cars get their power, isn't it?

    107. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Irrelevant. You confuse power with energy. The Earth produces relatively little power through radioactive decay. 30 TW compared to 44 TW of power flowing to the surface naturally, which makes the Earth slowly cool. But it has an enormous thermal energy content. 1e31 J divided by 4.74e20 is over 10 orders of magnitude, or 10 billion years at current consumption level. No wonder geothermal energy is considered an inexhaustible energy source, at the current energy usage, it would last us as long as the Sun itself.

    108. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very interesting article. I clicked it thinking that it was some whack job and looking to get a laugh, but he actually has a very good point. However, I think the takeaway from the post is *not* that the oceans are going to boil in 450 years, but rather that our present increase in power consumption will have to be slowed down, if for no other reason than simple physics.

    109. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A physicist will not say there is zero friction, but will frequently ask what scales you care about, as the impact of friction might not matter. The Earth's liquid outer core for example has a high Reynolds number, meaning the effects of viscosity is quite small compared to the inertia of moving fluid as far as the dynamics of the core are concerned. Otherwise the the core would act more rigid, quickly equilibrate its rotation speed with the rest of the Earth.

      Even if the friction was relatively small, it could still be a large in absolute terms. But trying to estimate what viscosity would be needed to transfer that much power out of the core gives values several orders of magnitude higher than estimates of the actual viscosity I can find, and that is use numbers greatly erroring on the side of trying to make it work out and give a small required viscosity.

      Also, wouldn't there be rather obvious anisotropy of the heat output of the core if it were from friction, as relative motion would be much larger along the equatorial plane of the core than its rotation poles?

    110. Re:Geothermal issues by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      (about as much change as a fart in a hurricane).

      A FART you say? That's not so bad.... At least it's not a single BUTTERFLY flapping its wings. Now THAT could ruin your whole hurricane experience!

    111. Re:Geothermal issues by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if any oil gas or geothermal wells go deep enough to reach the upper layers of the mantel or not. You're probably right about the crust layer.

    112. Re:Geothermal issues by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      If you take a look at the Google map, all the hot spots are near volcanic areas of the country. This includes all hot springs, and many fault zones. The source of this heat is ALWAYS a magma plume rising from the core to the earth's surface. These plumes are what carry the earth's natural heat to the surface. So I'm NOT wrong about the source of the geothermal energy.

    113. Re:Geothermal issues by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      That article is fundamentally flawed. It points to 2.3% per year increase in energy use in the US and ignores the population growth over the same period. In fact energy use per person has remained around 12 kW since about 1970. Homes are larger, but they are also better insulated. Vehicles and industry are more efficient. So while total energy use has gone up, energy per person has plateaued. If population growth in the US stopped, so would total energy use.

      Now, world population is expected to level out around 10 billion. If everyone used energy at the USA rate, that would require 120 TW, or 8 times what we use today. The question is where can you get that much, and what are the side effects?

    114. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seriously think they drill into the MANTLE?

    115. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up, dink!

    116. Re:Geothermal issues by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      It's not cold, it's just un-hot.

    117. Re:Geothermal issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you arrogant ignorant fuck! Do you even understand basic arithmetic?
      Watch this: Albert Bartlett: Arithmetic, Population and Energy
      Then try commenting again. (Why do I ever have to explain this to anyone there? I thought people here were wise, not just pseudo-educated smartasses who don't think for themselves.)

    118. Re:Geothermal issues by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Nobody has ever drilled as deep as the mantle and the depth record is held by the Russians and is a lot less than most people would think. Wikipedia will help.

    119. Re:Geothermal issues by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Sounds good with very limited knowlege but reality gets in the way. Steel and liquid metals at any temperature (eg. mercury or potassium at room temperature) do not get on very well :) There's good reasons why crucibles are lined with other stuff.
      There seems to be masive amounts of confidence coupled with ignorance going around at the moment. Physics doesn't care how loudly you shout, it just goes and does what it does.

    120. Re:Geothermal issues by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Well science uses submerged steel rods to regulate molten steel when making the stuff. Steel is made by plunging a steel rod into a furnace filled with high-carbon-content iron ore. This rod has coolant pumped through it, and is used to inject 99% pure oxygen into the furnace. This injection causes the carbon in the iron to ignite and burn, which raises the temperature immensely. Eventually the liquid metal is nice and hot and well tended and well reacted and mixed with all the alloying materials added to it, and the steel rod is pulled from the molten mess.

    121. Re:Geothermal issues by khallow · · Score: 1

      Do you? There's pretty solid evidence that there is global warming and decent evidence that humans are the cause of most of it. But to jump from that knowledge to calling it a "disaster" is unwarranted.

    122. Re:Geothermal issues by thomasw_lrd · · Score: 0

      Well I was trying to do some karma whoring. Im of the opinion that global warming is happening, but I'm not convinced its all by human interaction. I have no doubt that it is partly caused by us, but I'm also of the opinion that some of it is just natural. We know the earth was hotter a long time ago, and we know it has cooled down at least twice in the past. So this could be all natural with human intervention just a side effect of the earth naturally rebalancing itself.

    123. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      You confuse power with energy.

      You confuse mentioning two different things with confusing two different things. I'm an electrical engineer, so I'm not likely to confuse power with energy, like most laymen. I mention both power and energy with appropriate units for each, but I only compare amounts of energy to energy and amounts of power to power. I also compare power to rate of energy usage, but that is consistent, and in fact, you did the same exact thing. I, too, noticed in another post that we'd get about 20 billion years of power from the extant thermal energy (assuming we don't increase our energy usage). Still, a fart in a hurricane is at best 15 orders of magnitude. That was what I was trying to check.

    124. Re:Geothermal issues by orgelspieler · · Score: 1

      I thought it was small, too, but then you have to think about the small quantities of radioactive isotopes. There's just not a lot of the stuff out there, and each decaying particle only puts out a tiny amount of energy. I got the 30TW number from here. I think the more interesting point is that the heat is going to flow anyway, so it's a good thing for us to tap it on its way out.

    125. Re:Geothermal issues by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      The earth is about one trillion cubic kilometers big, and most of that is molten.

      I make it 1,083,206,916,845 km^3 ... so yeah about a "trillion", depending on your meaning of "trillion".

      But while almost all of it varies from "hot" to "very hot", only around 25% of it is anything like "molten", comprising the outer core (which stops the transmission of seismic shear waves) and the vastly larger asthenosphere which is without (Gk "a-" prefix) strength (Gk "sthenos" root) which may have up to several volume-% of melt in it. The rest is solid for all practical (human) intents and purposes.

      The phase diagrams of most common rock-forming minerals have melting take place at higher temperatures when under higher pressures. The common, everyday example that most people intuit from is water, and it's phase diagram (for modest near-surface pressures) is not like this. But water is a very unusual substance.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    126. Re:Geothermal issues by evilviper · · Score: 1

      I hope those questions are a joke. Geothermal wells don't go any where deep enough to reach the core. In fact they remain in the mantle, the top layer of the earth.

      **facepalm**

      I hope that response is a joke...
      Oh cruel irony.
      Lava monsters posting on /. now?

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  8. Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hots spots are suspiciously close to Google data centers.

  9. neat by joeytmann · · Score: 1

    Neat map and all but I wonder what would the effects would be of us sapping all this heat energy out of the crust of the planet do to tempatures?

    --
    Insert funny smart-ass comment here.
    1. Re:neat by RMingin · · Score: 2

      About the same as you throwing a small ice chip into a bonfire. Your incredible lack of scale is ASTOUNDING. If you could magically 'pump' heat from the core to the surface or vice versa, there's enough heat energy in the core to LIQUEFY the surface of the earth for thousands of years. Also, the amount we'd be tapping into is an infinitesimal fraction of what the Earth naturally radiates each day.

      --
      The preceding comment is my own, and in no way construes an opinon of the Emperor of Mankind.
    2. Re:neat by joeytmann · · Score: 0

      We always seem to say that about new technologys, oh it will last forever and have no effect. Then we learn much latter that it was a mistake......

      --
      Insert funny smart-ass comment here.
    3. Re:neat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Virtually nothing since Earth is releasing over 44,000,000,000,000 watts of power continuously to space anyway. We use around 10TW of electricity for the whole planet.

    4. Re:neat by jandrese · · Score: 1

      About the same danger of you farting in your apartment might stink up all of New York City.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    5. Re:neat by Arlet · · Score: 2

      I think it's your own lack of scale that's astounding. There is plenty of heat stored in the earth, but the rock is a very good insulator. Trying to extract too much, and the rock will cool rapidly.

      The average geothermal heat flux on the earth is only 0.1 Watt per square meter. That's only 0.1% of the energy that we get from the sun.

    6. Re:neat by benjamindees · · Score: 1

      Even assuming no radiative losses, it would take 3 million exajoules to raise the temperature of the oceans by one degree F. At current energy usage of 500 exajoules per year, that would take 6000 years.

      If you want to worry about global warming, concentrate on the areas that involve some leverage because our primary energy usage is miniscule in comparison to the planet.

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    7. Re:neat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Virtually nothing since Earth is releasing over 44,000,000,000,000 watts of power continuously to space anyway. We use around 10TW of electricity for the whole planet.

      By changing units, you make it seem much larger than it is. That's 44TW radiated VS 10TW of electricity.

    8. Re:neat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny you should mention that. You see, one day I was out playing with my friends when I cut the cheese. I blamed it on a passing gypsy...

    9. Re:neat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is only not a danger as I do not live in New York City. The area near my apartment has been the subject of numerous complaints.

    10. Re:neat by tp1024 · · Score: 1

      And 90% of the geothermal energy is released into the oceans. Oceans not only cover 70% of the earth, they also have much thinner crust with some 10-15km. Continental plates have a thickness on the order of 40-60km, which gives them much better thermal isolation. So, we're down to 4TW of thermal on the continental crust and we're not even talking about accessibility. You can't drill closely spaced boreholes and maintain their associated power stations all over the world. And "all over the world" includes Antarctica, Greenland, Siberia, Kanada, all the rainforests, all the deserts, all the mountain ranges in the rest of the world.

      Nor are we talking about conversion factors. For high temperatures (on the order of 500K) 20% are possible, but more commonly found temperatures of 400K practically achieved efficiencies drop to something on the order of 7%.

      In general, don't sneer at geothermal for heating, especially in volcanically active areas. But don't kid yourself about its potential to generate electricity.

    11. Re:neat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're literally arguing that it would be better to cover the surface of the earth in solar panels, you realize this, right?

      The heat is escaping at its own rate anyway. This is wasted energy. Geothermal taps said energy... no longer allowing a tiny fraction of what's being wasted anyway, to be wasted.

      And if, IF somehow our using of the geothermal in some microscopically tiny way increases the heat currently escaping through the crust, I can't imagine it taking less than tens or hundreds of thousands of years to do anything catastrophic.

      And if humans can't come up with another source of energy in tens to hundreds of thousands of years, we don't deserve to live. Hell, at that point we'd better be fighting off the chimps and gorillas and other animals that have evolved past us.

    12. Re:neat by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      True. On the other hand, how many farts would it take to stink up all of New York City.

      (Yes, I can see the jokes coming.)

      One Geothermal plant may not make a difference. But if it will take, say, 10,000 of these to make up for the energy from using oil, coal, etc, that might make a difference. To use the prerequisite car analogy, one car does not have any appreciable effect on the environment. Several billion cars do.

      Don't get me wrong--I tend to agree that the effect is negligible (even with thousands of them). But those sorts of calculations probably should be done (and probably have.)

    13. Re:neat by joeytmann · · Score: 1

      Actually I was referring to drops in temp.

      --
      Insert funny smart-ass comment here.
    14. Re:neat by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      You, obviously, do not know about my diet.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  10. Only smart... by ibsteve2u · · Score: 2

    Anything Google can do in the arena works to benefit all of humanity (admittedly it works to benefit those who are not getting wealthier creating a need for war in the Middle East the most).

    Now if somebody would just put together a project to find more efficient thermalelectric materials so we can take advantage of heat energy represented by the smaller but significant geothermal gradient that is present "everywhere"....

    Gotta love any form of energy which can be tapped by going under existing arable land, buildings, and Ma Nature's ecosystems without a subsequent risk of spilling crap everywhere and pollution through combustion.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
    1. Re:Only smart... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad you need all that oil powered, oil manufactured, oil transported technology to do the drilling.

      Oh well. At least horse and buggy is "green".

      Perhaps we need to realize the human race has simply just grown too big for its britches....

  11. Up Next, Global Cooling. by RavenChild · · Score: 0

    I can see the headlines in a hundred years:

    "Up against concerns over the global cooling crisis, researches are finding ways to utilize our abundant oil reserves to slow the inevitable heat death of our planet."

    1. Re:Up Next, Global Cooling. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      No worries, coal seam fires like this one : http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/21/content_7120136.htm , some of which have been burning for decades should keep Dear Old Mother Urth toasty warm.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re:Up Next, Global Cooling. by RavenChild · · Score: 1

      There's always this one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derweze

      Not really worried about heat death, we're (the human race) won't be around when it happens anyways.

    3. Re:Up Next, Global Cooling. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      That one's still burning? I thought Red Adair had slammed the shut the Door to Hell.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  12. It ain't all pretty steam by NMBob · · Score: 1

    There's a lot of nasty crap that gets dredged up out of the ground with geothermal power production too depending on how you do it. It's far from "clean" energy. It's just different dirty stuff.

    1. Re:It ain't all pretty steam by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      At least you are not dumping that stuff right into the air, or into a slurry pond.

      Nothing is totally clean, but somethings are much cleaner than others.

    2. Re:It ain't all pretty steam by symbolset · · Score: 2

      The thing is with the vast majority of these systems, the in-ground portion is a closed loop like the radiator in your car. The cooled water is pumped into the ground, which heats it. When it comes up hot its heat is transferred to another medium, that works like a refrigerator but in reverse. In normal operation, no emissions at all.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
  13. Now compare that map to Earthquakes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Better compare that map to earthquakes to know how you have to design your systems to reduce problems from quakes.

    1. Re:Now compare that map to Earthquakes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of them do look that way, but interestingly CO seems to have great potential, and has little to nothing in almost all kinds of natural disasters. There are also many locations that all already environmentally and visually impacted from old mining sites that wouldn't have as much NIMBY. I'm probably oversimplifying, but CO seems ideal for this.

  14. Yellowstone by jomama717 · · Score: 1

    That giant dark red glob where yellowstone is pretty foreboding... I assume that 90% of the stuff you hear in all of the shows about a mass extinction event following a yellowstone "supervolcano" eruption is just hype to get people to watch, but still.

    --
    while [ 1 ]; do echo -n -e "\xe2\x95\xb$((($RANDOM&1)+1))"; done
    1. Re:Yellowstone by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      So then - cool it down by drawing out the geothermal energy from that spot and get electrical energy from it as a side-effect.

      You need to pipe a lot of water to that spot, but you can get a huge amount of steam from it.

      OK, partly a joke, you can't cool it down enough to have a considerable effect on the development of a volcano, but there's a lot of energy to get there.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Yellowstone by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      That giant dark red glob where yellowstone is pretty foreboding... I assume that 90% of the stuff you hear in all of the shows about a mass extinction event following a yellowstone "supervolcano" eruption is just hype to get people to watch, but still.

      It's just hype until it happens. There are geological markers indicating a Yellowstone eruption every N million years, fairly regularly for a half dozen cycles or so... we are currently about N * 1.6 million years since the last eruption.

    3. Re:Yellowstone by warrior · · Score: 1

      What about the hot spot in southwest Colorado over La Garita? F@#%!!!

      --
      Intel transfer the difficult from Hadware to software, for get more power, programmer need more technology. -- chinaitn
    4. Re:Yellowstone by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      I think it would be foolish to ignore the possibility. Just ask the people of Pompeii. These things cause problems frequently and more importantly, severely enough that ignoring them would be a very bad idea.

      Related to which I wonder if GTE would be a reasonable way to let the proverbial air out of the balloon before it popped. The area around Yellowstone is particularly active relative to other sites. Even if we couldn't diffuse it, it's one incredible source of potential energy to be tapped until it kills us all.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    5. Re:Yellowstone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, partially.

      Anything unique to the US is just gone, dead, hopefully vaporized if it is lucky so it doesn't have to suffer being burned alive.
      But the explosion from Yellowstone is weakening if I remember correct, it used to be much, much larger.
      And considering we have survived it exploding before back in the ages where we never knew left from blue, we'd likely survive it now. (well, except from the US maybe...)

      A lot of crops are going to die hard anywhere near the explosion. Probably are far as central or the North of South Americas.
      Everywhere else, almost certain a very long winter, longer than the 1800s eruption, that's for sure.

      I still don't understand why they wouldn't geothermal the park up and just emulate the processes that happen in the park using the energy generated.
      Make the plants under the ground if they want to keep the park looking all nice and natural.
      And it takes out a large amount of energy, possibly even pushing back the magma chamber over time.
      I'd rather that than see the entire park turn to dust...

    6. Re:Yellowstone by JCogzAlity · · Score: 1

      Yep, they should dig several 'glory holes'. Just don't dig too deep, or you become a 'bad-movie cliche'.

  15. vulcan energy by pinfall · · Score: 1

    Drill down 100' get enough water for a generation. Drill dowdown 10,000 feet, get enough energy for 100 generations?

  16. A rose by any other name... by XiaoMing · · Score: 2

    Hilarious thing is that over 90% of geothermal energy is generated by the fission of nuclear isotopes anyway. All it does differently is during disposal when the earth just kind of farts it out as Radon into our basements.

    1. Re:A rose by any other name... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hilarious thing is that over 90% of geothermal energy is generated by the fission of nuclear isotopes anyway. .

      That's false. Much of the thermal energy of the Earth was produce through radioactive decay, NOT nuclear fission.

    2. Re:A rose by any other name... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Hilarious thing is that over 90% of geothermal energy is generated by the fission of nuclear isotopes anyway. All it does differently is during disposal when the earth just kind of farts it out as Radon into our basements.

      I have to admit I laughed, and admired the cleverness of your comment. However, the obvious response is that the earths core is going to continue doing what it's doing regardless of what the argumentative specks on the surface decide to do. We may as well tap into it, instead of creating MORE waste.

      And that's coming from someone who's pro-nuclear. I think we're getting to the point where geothermal is almost a viable option for powering a large percentage of our electrical needs. This contribution by google gets us one step closer.

  17. Google is evil! Don't let them deceive you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now they also know the geotermal potential of YOUR HOME! Think about it.

  18. Here's why it'll never, ever, happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quick google search:
    http://www.sierraclub.org/policy/conservation/geothermal.aspx Note that this resolution was adopted in 1980.

    The peter principle of the environmentalists precludes any development. Because we JUST DON'T KNOW if it will do anything bad. Because NO LEVEL of testing and impact study will ever prove NOTHING BAD will happen. So you've got hydro blocked because of salmon, you've got solar blocked because of bugs and turtles in the desert, you've got wind blocked because of the birds, and you've got geothermal blocked because it's in the parks, under the mountains, by the streams, and in the earth, and it'll be regulated with oversight and red tape and studies until it's completely uneconomical.

    1. Re:Here's why it'll never, ever, happen by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And all the time you burn oil and mine uranium to get energy.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  19. Don't worry, it'll be dangerous too by istartedi · · Score: 1

    Just wait for the opponents to raise these issues

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    1. Re:Don't worry, it'll be dangerous too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not really though, unless somebody does something stupid. Like make the machines work more than they should and they explode - which is actually something that almost happened near me.

    2. Re:Don't worry, it'll be dangerous too by tangelogee · · Score: 1

      With regard to your sig...whom is still a used word. Just because people don't bother to learn proper grammar/spelling doesn't make a word irrelevant. "Intensive purposes," however, has never been a quote. "Intents and purposes" is what you are looking for. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_saying_'all_intents_and_purposes'_or_'all_intense_purposes'

    3. Re:Don't worry, it'll be dangerous too by istartedi · · Score: 1

      The seldom posted explanation for my sig. Do you know what you missed?

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  20. How is Geothermal renewable? by johanwanderer · · Score: 1

    It might be vast, but once you extract that heat and pump it into the atmosphere, wouldn't it cause a local cooling of the rocks?

    How long would a drill site last without drilling more?

    1. Re:How is Geothermal renewable? by SirWhoopass · · Score: 1

      You are correct, it will cause local cooling and require 30 to 200 years of time to "recharge" after a 30 to 50 year production life for the geothermal site.

      See the PDF in this comment.

  21. Why is electricity not free? by LoudMusic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seriously. Electricity to residential users should be free (up to a consumption level).

    Earlier this year my wife and I visited Grand Coulee Dam. It produces nearly 7GW and costs them rather little in maintenance to operate.

    This weekend we drove through the windmills in eastern Washington and Oregon. They sit there and turn generating more power than can be transmitted, costing little in maintenance to operate.

    And now Google is encouraging ramping up geothermal (which looks like good stuff for Oregon!), and again requires little cost in maintenance.

    Electricity is electricity. The expectation is that when I plug something into an outlet in my house I will get 110v. With the exception of inadequate supply, electricity in any home in the United States should be identical. No one advertises that their electricity is better, so there is no competition in 'who builds a better product'. Is this something the government should take control of, create jobs to build more clean energy production, end-of-life fuel burning generators, and turn electricity into a 'free service'? Residential use up to a certain usage could be free, while overages would incur modest fees. Commercial locations would continue to pay same or even reduced rates to help maintain the facilities. Theoretically this could encourage the move to electricity in other areas currently using other fuel sources, like automobiles. Electric cars are cheaper to operate now, but what if it was FREE?

    Seems like something to think about.

    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    1. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generating electricity has negative externalities. If you make it free, people will use more of it and will be less willing to spend extra money on energy-efficient devices.

    2. Re:Why is electricity not free? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seriously. Electricity to residential users should be free (up to a consumption level)... this could encourage the move to electricity in other areas currently using other fuel sources, like automobiles. Electric cars are cheaper to operate now, but what if it was FREE?

      Seems like something to think about.

      I live in Florida. I just spent $9K on a new AC unit because the old one was slightly under-powered and massively inefficient. Our summertime electric bills dropped from $350/month to under $100 a month. If electricity were free, where's my incentive to not just buy a (massively inefficient) $500 wall unit A/C to band-aid my 20 year old central A/C and limp it along for another 10 or 15 years, boosting my electricity consumption by a factor of 3x? (Northern Florida, it does get cold occasionally, during particularly cold months the old unit would cost $500+ running in heat-pump mode, the new one less than $200 and keeps the house warmer too...) Also, I upgraded the attic insulation from R-19 to R-38 (partly responsible for the system efficiency) - would have been far cheaper to get an extra ton of capacity in the unit instead of paying the labor for insulation installation....

      If I could charge an electric car for FREE, I'd already have a hybrid converted for plug-in charging... but since my electricity comes from a coal fired plant down the road, that wouldn't even be good for the local environment.

    3. Re:Why is electricity not free? by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

      Electricity isn't free because those generators, transformers, power lines, etc cost money to build and maintain. You could set up systems where you paid the cost via taxes, or via increased prices from the businesses that now have to cover the cost of your power, but you can't eliminate the cost.

      Plus, you eliminate any incentive to reduce your electricity usage.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free electricity? This might iterest you then, the real steamy/funny/shocking you name it claim comes this very friday 28 Oct 2011 - the world's first 1MW Cold Fusion power station is going to be launched and showcased to the customers from the US. This is really the "I want to believe" thing.. Some important videos to watch if you are interested, there is a CBS 60 Minutes intro for the latest LENR action and then the Italian inventor and his LENR-fusion toy. Could anybody elaborate? Is the CBS segment wrong? Could this really be true?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyNn_Z6wCIk
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E
      http://www.ecat.com (the company - actually a video only)
      http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com

    5. Re:Why is electricity not free? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Because it costs money to get, money to build lines, money to maintain those lines, and so on..

      Energy is pretty cheap.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Why is electricity not free? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Actually, because electricity IS so cheap and is subsidized in many ways, is what allowed USA and now China to grow. The amount of pollution that comes from coal plants is incredible. The best thing that we can do, is raise the price of gas,diesel, while allowing electricity to remain at the current level.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:Why is electricity not free? by sampson7 · · Score: 1

      I can't tell whether you are serious or not.... Just as one example, building those wind farms is very expensive. Averaged over the expected life time of the turbines, it probably costs around 10 cents per watt - which, depending on where in the country you live - is probably more than you are paying now.

      I won't even talk about the cost of transmission lines, distribution lines, or the price of backup power when the wind doesn't blow. They said nuclear would be too cheap to meter too... They were wrong. Nothing in this life is free, my friend.....

    8. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it costs real money to build and maintain generating systems and distribution networks. Not to mention that all of the generation has to be coordinated and frequency synchronized.

    9. Re:Why is electricity not free? by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      I was disappointed to see they have only invested $10 million. My alma matter in Oregon (OIT) has been geothermally heated for for 50 years.. and a few years ago, they started building a power plant to power the university, plus sell extra hot water and power to the hospital next door:
      http://www.oit.edu/news/04-20-2010/oregon_s_first_geothermal_combined_heat_and_power_plant_dedication.aspx

      They have the US Geo-Heat center located on campus (since the whole campus was purposefully put on a geothermally active site) They have put out tons of data on the new combined heat/power system.. (yes, the web page is straight out of 1996)
      http://geoheat.oit.edu/greenoit.htm

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    10. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of the examples you cite cost money to build, windmills are cheap compared to a nuke or coal power plant but not something the average /. reader can afford. Maintenance is not free. Maintenance of the transmission lines is not free. There will always be costs to build, install and dispose of the generating source. For most solutions there are environmental costs. All of those costs must be accounted for.

      Having said that, Google is investing on geothermal because they believe they can get the total costs below that of the current nuclear, coal and gas power plants. A large part of that is reduced environmental costs - which is not priced into the current cost of electricity. No part of that discussion has to do with free electricity.

    11. Re:Why is electricity not free? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Electricity is electricity.

      Electricity at your outlet is a lot more valuable to you than electricity at a dam or geothermal power plant. Location is an inherent factor in electricity generation and consumption.

      You describe a huge amount of infrastructure, high standards of delivery, and problems of supply, and yet you want it for free? As I see it, it costs money to generate and get it to your outlet, so you should pay for it. Similarly, there's no reason that electricity should be the same price everywhere. For example, I'd expect it to be a lot cheaper next to Grand Coulee dam than in the middle of Silicon Valley.

      Is this something the government should take control of, create jobs to build more clean energy production, end-of-life fuel burning generators, and turn electricity into a 'free service'?

      No. I must admit to being a smaller government advocate. I simply don't see a place for government in controlling yet more vital infrastructure, creating jobs (especially, if they inadvertently destroy more jobs in the process!), or picking and choosing technology winners (I doubt you want technology chosen on the basis of who donates more to the appropriate campaign warchests). And how do you prevent someone from abusing the "free" service? I could resell my power to the local aluminum smelter, for example.

      Electric cars are cheaper to operate now, but what if it was FREE?

      The initial condition is false. Electric cars are not cheaper to operate. They still require batteries which still need to be replaced on occasion (say due to use or accident damage). And they require other specialized parts which are not cheap.

      And behavioral modification is not in itself an inherent good. I'd like a good reason (that is, cost/benefit analysis showing net benefit) before I endorse something that encourages people to get away from gasoline powered automobiles. Remember here that electric cars being neat is not the same as electric cars being a good replacement in most cases for gas powered cars. The latter has yet to be shown.

    12. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Short answer: Because they can.

      You require electricity. You for all intents and purposes cannot live without electricity. Therefore, they will charge you whatever they want, and you will pay anything that they ask.

      For a similar type billing situation, why are text messages not free? The data for them is being added to bandwidth already being sent, so it literally needs zero extra bandwidth. But people want it, so they will charge whatever they want for it, and people will pay for it.

      The more something is needed, the faster they will charge you for it. I'm sure right now there's a dozen agencies trying to find a way to make us pay for air.

    13. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And communism works in theory. While generation via certian methods may be relatively cheap, what about transmission, distribution, maintenance, repairs to systems due to natural disasters, etc? Keep in mind the government does very little if anything cheap or efficiently, let alone "well".

    14. Re:Why is electricity not free? by corbettw · · Score: 1

      To be fair, he did suggest that it be free up to a certain point. More efficient A/C units could still result in savings, though not as great.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    15. Re:Why is electricity not free? by tyrione · · Score: 1

      FWIW: Grand Coulee's final build-out with it's most current large scale Turbines will more than double that power output. That power goes to support Nuclear Power in the Tri-Cities and Military needs. We are being screwed out of such a massive power source. You are correct that the material medium used in Power Transportation is leaking badly into the atmosphere. The Smart Grid is being tested in places like Pullman, WA with AVISTA Utilities out of Spokane, WA [parent company out of Houston, TX]. Yes, the Wind Farms expanding in WA are expanding rapidly as useful wind power conversion is now estimate at 18 GW when deployed. That's far more significant that Grand Coulee. So much for Wind not being that useful. Build out for SMART Grid distributed power solutions is required. (Wind Power in Washington), (Pacific Northwest Smart Grid Demonstration Project)

    16. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I could charge an electric car for FREE, I'd already have a hybrid converted for plug-in charging... but since my electricity comes from a coal fired plant down the road, that wouldn't even be good for the local environment.

      Not completely true, it's not ideal but a single large powerstation is more efficient then millions of little powerstations in every single car (Internal Combustion). A hybrid running on coal fire electricity will produce less CO2 then a normal car, not a lot less but better than nothing.

    17. Re:Why is electricity not free? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If electricity were free, where's my incentive to not just buy a (massively inefficient) $500 wall unit A/C

      Require all new units to be efficient, and maybe offer a trade-in on old ones to encourage people to upgrade and give those on lower incomes a buffer from the additional cost of efficient models.

      would have been far cheaper to get an extra ton of capacity in the unit instead of paying the labor for insulation installation

      Again regulation on new houses, but also in the UK we offer free insulation to the elderly and people on benefits. It could be extended. There are actually lots of things you can do to insulate a house that cost very little, such as draught excluders and window film, and you can install them yourself.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    18. Re:Why is electricity not free? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      If electricity were free, where's my incentive to not just buy a (massively inefficient) $500 wall unit A/C

      Require all new units to be efficient, and maybe offer a trade-in on old ones to encourage people to upgrade and give those on lower incomes a buffer from the additional cost of efficient models.

      Say that in the rural U.S.A. and you might get lynched.

      would have been far cheaper to get an extra ton of capacity in the unit instead of paying the labor for insulation installation

      Again regulation on new houses, but also in the UK we offer free insulation to the elderly and people on benefits. It could be extended. There are actually lots of things you can do to insulate a house that cost very little, such as draught excluders and window film, and you can install them yourself.

      I'd like Google, or a similar corporation with more disposable income than many state governments, to start an experimental neighborhood renovation program (as a charitable exercise, don't look for profits in this), where they buy houses from the open market at fair market value, and renovate them for energy efficiency, insulating them to high standards, putting in efficient windows and A/C units, installing solar panels (PV and/or water heating) where appropriate, etc., maybe using low-maintenance roofing and siding materials where appropriate, then turning around and selling the houses, on the open market, for whatever fair market value is. I would fully expect the program to run at a loss, with the improvements costing more than the market is willing to pay, but what I'm really interested in is the impact to the local environment and economy. There would be an artificial economic boost due to the money flowing into the construction industry, it would probably lead to local growth if you kept the program going for several years. Residents of the improved homes would have more disposable income due to lower energy costs, the local environment would be improved by reduced coal burning (probably more than offset by the population growth from the economic boost), all in all I'm not really sure what would come of it, but it would be an interesting case study to back up or refute "obvious" regulations about how houses should be built, and it certainly seems like it falls under the "not evil" mantra, unless you're a Google shareholder, but, again, such a program should cost a tiny fraction of a percent of their income, less than 1% of profits in a good quarter, and the PR potential is huge. And. I suppose, if they do it an area where the local government could give them tax breaks, it could be sold as a win-win...

    19. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free Energy.... What a concept. That would be great except there is not such a thing. Do you have any idea how much those wind turbines cost? The blades on them alone barely fit on a full-size flatbed and are made using some of the most advanced materials in the world. Let alone the grid infrastructure and maintenance thereof. Sorry, but someone has to pay for all of it, and I'd prefer it stayed in the private sector as much as possible. The alternative is the government controlling it and then you'd end up paying higher taxes anyway.

    20. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is food not free?

      Why is education not free?

      Why is health care not free?

    21. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you suggesting the government take over an industry to lower prices? Can you provide even a single instance where that has happened?

    22. Re:Why is electricity not free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because those windmills and geo thermal wells are very expensive to install, or drill. Maintenance is expensive on windmills that generate over a megawatt and each one costs millions. Drilling geothermal wells costs many millions and depending on depth could put the cost of energy on par with getting oil out of the Gulf of Mexico which is about 80 dollars a barre. In many cases you have to pump the water down there and get steam back up. Steam turbines are expensive and not maintenance free.

      Cost wise, wind power is just reaching the point where it can compete with conventional coal and gas fired power plants.Older wind farms can not compete economically with coal or gas fired power plants. On top of that all of these sources of power require a huge and complex power distribution grid that requires each source be synchronized with the others. The power grid is expensive to build, unsightly, and expensive to maintain as well as being vulnerable to nature. (Ice, lightning, wind, and solar storms)

    23. Re:Why is electricity not free? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I can't tell whether you are serious or not.... Just as one example, building those wind farms is very expensive. Averaged over the expected life time of the turbines, it probably costs around 10 cents per watt - which, depending on where in the country you live - is probably more than you are paying now.

      He must be one of the "99%".

  22. Geothermal CANNOT replace petroleum by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a_hanso is a complete moron.

    In the US, very little electricity comes from petroleum.

    "Google seems to believe that [geothermal] is our best bet at kicking the oil habit"

    Fucking stupid sentence. Totally fucking stupid!

    It could replace some *coal* and *natural gas* usage, but geothermal energy will not make any difference whatsoever in petroleum usage until there are more (some) battery-powered cars or a hydrogen infrastructure.

    I notice the linked pages do not mention oil or petroleum, so it was an invention of imbecile submitter "a_hanso"

    Where do all these stupid people come from?

    1. Re:Geothermal CANNOT replace petroleum by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      You will note that Google is busy pushing Electric cars as well as electric trains and planes. So, yes, geothermal CAN if we do multiple things.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  23. Re:And they said I was crazy to live on a volcano by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 2

    > Still think the gases are so bad

    These radioactive "gases" like Radon are indeed worse, are you lucky and out of the 'zone'?

    USGS Radon map

    http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/radon/rnus.html

  24. Not oil by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    Google seems to believe that it is our best bet at kicking the oil habit (especially now that nuclear power has suddenly become disproportionately unpopular)."

    I always wonder about the disconnect in some people's minds between green energy and oil. This won't help us get off oil at all. Very few electrical plants use oil. The oil is mainly used in cars and other forms of transportation, and no cars run on geothermal energy. If you want to get us off oil, you need to develop an electric (hydrogen/biofuel/natural gas) car, not geothermal energy.

    What this CAN do is get us off coal energy, which is a worthy goal. But please show you have at least a basic understanding of energy.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Not oil by bananaquackmoo · · Score: 1

      What you say is mostly true. There is more though. Most cars run on oil but some can run on electricity now. These are not the only two options, but they are generally what people think of in an either-or fashion. One can decrease oil consumption by replacing those cars which run on oil with cars which run on electricity.

    2. Re:Not oil by canajin56 · · Score: 1

      Cheap electricity makes electric cars and electric mass transit much more economical, so indirectly cheap power plants can theoretically lower the demand for oil. I doubt that's what they meant, though ;)

      --
      ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
    3. Re:Not oil by Millennium · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this. One of the limitations of geothermal is that the power plant must remain stationary. That's not a problem for buildings and devices that can get their power from outlets, so it's still quite useful, but a different technology will be needed to deal with vehicles and other devices that can move (or be moved while still operating).

      In any case, yes; geothermal energy is likely be be regionally appropriate for the western half of North America, and apparently West Virginia as well. Presumably Hawaii works too, though it's not on the map. However, this leaves the eastern half of North America out in the cold, so to speak: geothermal isn't appropriate for that region, because there just isn't enough heat at feasible levels.

      The big advantage of fossil fuels is that they are portable. Carrying fuel is a solved problem, and so you can build a plant anywhere you can carry fuel. This is most likely the biggest reason they became standard worldwide (yeah, yeah, Big Energy looking for profits, but portability is what makes it profitable). Most renewables, on the other hand, aren't: they work well in places with sufficient amounts of whatever resource is being exploited (wind, geothermal, hydro, solar, etc) but a place without enough of that resource can't use that kind of plant.

      This is why, for the US, it doesn't make sense to go with any single solution for the entire country. As a nation it is too large, and the climates too varied, for any one technology to be appropriate everywhere. It would make considerably more sense for a range of technologies to be used where they are determined to be most appropriate, but because these determinations are best done within those regions (i.e. states), there are certain political elements that you'll never be able to get on board for that. People want a magic bullet, but even bullets have limited range.

    4. Re:Not oil by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      One can decrease oil consumption by replacing those cars which run on oil with cars which run on electricity.

      One can do that.

      But until one brings the price of electric cars down to at or below the price of gasoline/diesel cars, and simultaneously brings the performance/range up to or above the performance of gasoline/diesel cars, it won't happen.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Not oil by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Please their are a tiny number of electric cars. Solar, Wind, and Hydro have no net effect on oil use in the US. It is all about coal. It will take decades to replace even a good percentage of cars with electric if tech can get to that point.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    6. Re:Not oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > This [geothermal] won't help us get off oil at all.

      Um, NOT. You can use the geothermally-produced electricity to hydrolyze water into hydrogen fuel for cars and other use.

      You're welcome.

    7. Re:Not oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but if we can shift to geothermal, then coal could easily be turned into liquid fuels with processes we have now. With additional research we could probably shift much of our need for liquid fuels to coal-to-gas technologies. Coal-to-gas is more expensive and less green than crude oil, but given time and research we could wean ourselves off of the enormous dependency on Saudi oil. The United States are the Saudi Arabia of coal. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#World_coal_reserves]

    8. Re:Not oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      geothermal energy is electricity. did you think we were talking about putting wells in all the gas stations so the cars could stop and pick up some cheap geothermal heat energy?

    9. Re:Not oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus.

      1) Geothermal provides electricity.
      2) We already have several electric cars.
      3) Most cars use oil.

      Connect the fucking dots. That being said, what we really need are better batteries.

    10. Re:Not oil by SEE · · Score: 1

      Even there the math doesn't work. There's only so much reducing electricity prices could do to promote the alternatives. But even if we went hog-wild and projected cheap geothermal would result replacing of one in four US passenger vehicle miles with trips on electricity-fueled transport, it would reduce US oil consumption by . . . 10%.

      Not an insubstantial cut, but not the sort of thing that would count as getting the US off oil.

    11. Re:Not oil by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Even if electricity were free, it wouldn't be worth a $50k car (compared to a $20k decent car).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:Not oil by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Cheap electricity also makes hydrogen powered cars more viable as you can use the electricity as a cheap source of hydrogen.

    13. Re:Not oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately there are many areas of the country, like Michigan, where geo thermal as proposed is not economically viable when compared to coal or gas. Here you have to go *deep* for a rather anemic return.

    14. Re:Not oil by SuperQ · · Score: 1

      No, this is not necessary at all. In fact, it's already happening.

  25. re nuclear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    any civilian nuke enables weapons programs, because all high level rad facilities share rare, $$ technology.

    For instance, it is hard to buy and not have people ask question when you buy equipment for handling high level rad waste if you don't have a civilian program; it is hard to develop medical expertise for high level rad poisining if you don't have a civilian program etc

    liberal say: be bold, daring and entrepreneurial - use solar and wind, and use incentives to develop technology to solve issues like load mismatch and storage (midnight in dec, demand in NYC not equal to sunlight in AZ)

  26. Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    I have been here pushing geo-thermal while the solar nut jobs push nothing but that. geo-thermal is by far the best bet to carry us for the next 50 years. We have loads of drilling companies that simply want to sink a hole and make money on it. Well, this is how you do it.
    And as to not replacing gas, oil, give me a break. The bulk of oil used in America is for transportation. Electrics are coming. In a big way. Sadly, Detroit is way behind, rather than leading. To avoid having to bail out these idiots we should be encouraging a new breed of car makers. GM and Ford are dead within 5 years.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by Arlet · · Score: 1

      Why do you call them solar nut jobs, when solar energy per square meter is several orders of magnitude more than thermal ?

    2. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      Why do you call them solar nut jobs, when solar energy per square meter is several orders of magnitude more than thermal ?

      Because a square meter of surface area is several orders of magnitude more valuable than a square meter of earth 6km underground. Geothermal has an incredibly small footprint on the surface, where it counts.

    3. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by Arlet · · Score: 1

      There's plenty of surface area that's pretty worthless, like the deserts, and they have a lot of sun. Just those areas combined already capture more solar energy than all the world's potential for geothermal.

      Also, setting up a solar plant is a lot easier than drilling 6 km deep underground.

    4. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      solar nut jobs, yeah. who has grid parity in california, germany, italy, and soon the world? Lap it up you frucking scumbag. Then stand in like and buy cSi PV for 1.00 $/Wp

    5. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      If geo-thermal had even 1/4 of the subsidies that solar does, solar would not even be produced. Right now, shallow well geo-thermal is competitive without subsidies against coal. Only hydro is cheaper. Add similar subsidies that solar gets and geo-thermal would bloom all over.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    6. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      First, we subsidize solar more than any other form of AE (which is still far less than nuke or oil or coal). Solar PV is a joke. It is only useful part of the time. You NEED either storage, or a means of filling it in. However, just about ever solar PV backers screams that it is not a big deal, but they do not want to spend any money on other AEs, while shutting down coal, nuke, etc.

      It is insane to think that solar in our current tech level with PV and storage will replace our current infrastructure. Yet, you guys prevent other ideas from coming to fruition. That makes solar nut jobs. It is as bad as coal or nuke nut jobs. When somebody screams that one type of energy is going to solve all of our issues, it means that they have NO clue, but they are a fan boyz.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Deserts are NOT worthless. They are extremely useful. In addition, their ecology is even more sensitive then others. And no, if you think that the deserts on our planet using current tech will approach potential from geo-thermal, well, you obviously have no sense of math or size.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    8. Re:Hopefully, this will get rid of nutjobs by evilviper · · Score: 1

      It is insane to think that solar in our current tech level with PV and storage will replace our current infrastructure.

      Solar (whether thermal or PV) or Nuclear are the only technologies which can meet the increasing electrical demands projected out over 100 years from now. Nothing else will be able to meet our demand. Given that simple fact, there's no question where the bulk of research money should go. Anything else is short-term thinking.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  27. Unnecessary editorializing by dkleinsc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FTFS:

    (especially now that nuclear power has suddenly become disproportionately unpopular)

    There are lots of problems with this phrase:
    1. "especially now" and "suddenly" imply that opposition to nuclear power is something new, rather than something that's had at least rumblings about for over 50 years.
    2. "disproportionately" doesn't describe what you're comparing it to. I'm guessing it's the cost of nuclear power, factoring in the average cost per KwH, the incidence of accidents, and the average cost per accident, but that's little more than a guess.

    So that little editorial comment seems to read:
    "Nuclear power is safe and fantastic, but those environmentalist nutjobs have suddenly convinced everybody to hate it for no good reason."

    The more reasonable comment, if you were going to make any general statement at all, would be something like:
    "Nuclear power seems to be mostly safe, but environmentalists have convinced many people that it's a bad idea because of a few notable accidents."

    Or, you know, you could just leave that out entirely. Knowing where geothermal energy could be a viable source is worth doing regardless of what happens to nuclear power plants.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      2. "disproportionately" doesn't describe what you're comparing it to. I'm guessing it's the cost of nuclear power, factoring in the average cost per KwH, the incidence of accidents, and the average cost per accident, but that's little more than a guess.

      You'd be wrong.

      Main reason nuclear is unpopular is that people are phobic about the word "nuclear".

      By pretty much any metric, nuclear is safer and cheaper (especially when you consider those externalities like carbon emissions) than coal/oil/hydro, etc.

      What gets it in trouble is the legal problems you get when you want to build a plant (announce a location, and a herd of lawyers descend upon you with injunctions demanding that you not build here, for any value of here).

      Plus there's the laws that say you can't actually do anything with spent fuel rods except park them right next to the plant, so that if anything bad happens, the effect is magnified by the pile of old fuel rods OUTSIDE the containment dome....

      Which latter is a side-effect of the NIMBYism inherent in the army of lawyers descending to prevent construction of a nuclear power plant here (for any value of here)....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Then "disproportionately" is not the right word. The right word is "unjustifiably".

      "disproportionately" implies that there's something you're measuring against, and that there is some number that's proportionate. For instance, if we consider two groups of people, and one group has 150 deaths per 100,000 from a particular cause while on average there are only 5 deaths per 100,000 from that cause, we'd look for what disproportionately causes the first group to have 30 times the usual number of deaths.

      By pretty much any metric, nuclear is safer and cheaper (especially when you consider those externalities like carbon emissions) than coal/oil/hydro, etc.

      Which metrics? What do those metrics measure to demonstrate the relative safety of nuclear power? Do those metrics include the costs of health care for those living nearby the plant adversely affected by the emissions? Do they include the costs of accident cleanup averaged out over the number of accidents per GwH (or some other appropriate standard)?

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    3. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by ks*nut · · Score: 1

      Nuclear power's unpopularity should be based on a number of things, but foremost should be the fact that they can't find anywhere to put the damned waste products. And that's not just this country's problem anymore.

    4. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by a_hanso · · Score: 1

      You are quite correct. That was not the word I was looking for and probably not the phrase I was looking for either. Unfortunately I realized it after a hasty submission. What I meant to say was: public phobia of nuclear power is not in proportion to its actual dangers. Ideally, the post did not really need that last sentence.

      In any case, this is a case of how people perceive the (probability of catastrophy x damage from catastrophy) factor. This is why I fear flying more than driving, despite knowing the statistics -- the probability is very low, but damage is almost always fatal, which is like (very small number x infinity), in psychological terms.

    5. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by DrBoumBoum · · Score: 1

      nuclear is safer

      How do you define safer? Oh I see, you mean "disregarding a few annoying incidents that won't ever happen again, promised. In fact they almost didn't happen at all".

      nuclear is cheaper

      Especially when you disregard the potential cost of accidents (i.e., insurance).

      By pretty much any metric

      At least by unicorns and fairies, definitely.

    6. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      I should point out that something Bruce Schneier constantly alludes to is that where humans get really really stupid is in dealing with risks that involve numbers like 0.000001% chance of $1,000,000,000 worth of damage.

      Oh, and if you really want to travel safely, I should point out that while planes are much safer than cars, by far the safest option is trains - trains kill only 24 people annually, while planes kill 700, and cars 44,000. In fact, you're much more likely to commit suicide then to be killed riding a plane, train, or bus.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    7. Re:Unnecessary editorializing by a_hanso · · Score: 1

      I'm a very safe driver with a zero accident record (I've been rear ended by other drivers twice though). But on a plane, my own precautions amount to naught -- it's as if the teenage drunk driver and the safe-driver-of-the-year had an equal chance of dying on the road!

  28. Please stop talking about offsetting oil use by ocop · · Score: 1

    The vast majority of oil use in this country is as a transportation fuel and is only used in a tiny minority of electric generating systems having been phased out for natural gas over the past 20 years. Nor is oil typically used in baseload plants (what geothermal offsets) during the few times it is burned. Therefore, building renewable electric generating systems of any kind (solar, wind, hydro/marine,geothermal) does not offset oil. Renewables offset old coal or the need for new combined cycle gas facilities...or other renewables depending on your capacity expansion assumptions. For geothermal to offset oil you would have to electrify an enormous portion of light vehicle transportation which is only going to happen across many decades given slow turnover in the vehicle fleet and the current limited penetration of EVs in the new vehicles market. Just a pet peeve of mine. Also, nuclear is still coming on strong in the south... at least for Southern Company/Georgia Power's Vogtle expansion

    1. Re:Please stop talking about offsetting oil use by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Moving energy generation to renewables is the necessary component of a greater plan to offset oil use, with the other part of it being the move to electric vehicles. You can't have one or the other to make a meaningful effect, but you need both.

  29. Re:And they said I was crazy to live on a volcano by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Still think the gases are so bad NOW, Sheila?!?!?

    Or free-market/private corporations conducting research.

  30. Magma, the new power source! by cdrguru · · Score: 1

    Why not just deal with it directly so we can fill up cars, trucks, buses, trains and airplanes with MAGMA instead of petroleum products? The waste products are simply heat and rocks. It might be a bit of a problem disposing of warm rocks from an airplane but with little parachutes it shouldn't be a problem.

    Handling magma shouldn't be that difficult - sort of a big super insulated coffee mug would be required. Of course, we could get real fancy and move to something like magnetic suspension in a vacuum eventually.

    This would also solve power problems for many portable devices by simply using a small Stirling engine running off the heat of a small amount of magma. Of course, proper insulation is going to be required as this brings a whole new dimension to the idea of a hot notebook computer in your lap. But the "battery" life could be a few days instead of only hours. How small could a thermal-to-electric conversion system be? Could we have magma-powered iPhones soon?

    I do suggest watching the movie Crack in the World, a 1965 movie about tapping magma for an unlimited source of power for the world. Our friends at Google have made this available to everyone who might be interested.

    1. Re:Magma, the new power source! by psydeshow · · Score: 1

      This idea rocks as long as you don't mind Google building a Magma Station in your backyard.

      You know what that stuff smells like, right?

    2. Re:Magma, the new power source! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      I do suggest watching the movie Crack in the World [imdb.com], a 1965 movie about tapping magma for an unlimited source of power for the world.

      Why? The science in that film was laughable. To be fair, plate tectonics were announced shortly after the film was made.

  31. Geothermal energy -- Unlimited resource? by Georules · · Score: 1

    Way to think myopically again. I'm sure oil harvesting seemed unlimited and inconsequential at one time to many. How about we actually put these technologies into measurable quantities?

    1. Re:Geothermal energy -- Unlimited resource? by SirWhoopass · · Score: 1

      At What Time Scale Are Geothermal Resources Renewable?"

      The answer appears to be, "it depends". The problem appears to be that any given geothermal installation becomes unusable after a period of time. Shallow systems recharge in 30 years after 30 years of operation. Deep systems need a few hundred years after 50 years of operation.

    2. Re:Geothermal energy -- Unlimited resource? by Georules · · Score: 1

      Interesting! And also, quite different than "unlimited".

  32. And the answer is... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

    And the answer to the question "what is our geothermal potential?" is... Not so great really.
     
    You need much better than 150-200C to run turbines efficiently. Much, much better preferably. And the map shows that most of the areas where efficiency is reasonable, the terrain is... much less so. Not to mention in general being far from population centers, which means significant transmission losses. *And* lacking in water for either injection (open cycle plants) or cooling (closed cycle plants).

    1. Re:And the answer is... by dr_leviathan · · Score: 1

      Correct, turbines are not efficient. However, a nearly isothermal engine IS. Combine a solar array with a SustainX compressed gas energy storage system and a 200C thermal gradient and you would have something neat:

      http://ecogeek.org/component/content/article/3620

      --
      Religion is poison to rationality, and we lose sight of that at our own peril. -- Lurker2288
    2. Re:And the answer is... by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      Derek, as has been shown there is a LARGE amount of heat down there. But what you speak of is about efficiencies, not capabilities. Right now, we sink oil wells all over the nation that at the bottom generates 95-150C. Many of these wells are no longer used for oil (they are abandoned), but they still have loads of heat down there.

      By using smaller generators designed for waste heat, then you can generate loads of power. these are only 50-100 KW sizes, however just in Colorado, we have 30K abandoned wells and 30K active wells. If just half of the abandoned wells produced say 50KW, we would produce somewhere around 3/4 to 1 GW of energy. Considering that many of these wells are located close to the northern front range, that would increase the amount of energy that Colorado northern front range has by almost 50%. That is a cheap clean way to do this.

      Incidentally, one of the issues that Colorado has is water. With these, they are air cooled. That is a huge plus.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:And the answer is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yup. let's run turbines off 100-300C. What a joke. LOL maybe we can get to 20% efficiency by adding some ridiculous organic bottoming cycle. LOL. Yeah thats the ticket... not 2 GW wafer/cell/module pv manufacturing operations that are profitble at unsubsidized 0.90 $/Wp. Every Prius can have their own 50kW-100kW well with turbine. LOL. Wallmart can dig a 7 km hole in the ground instead of installing a 500 kW roof array. LOL. Meanwhile, cSi PV is cheaper than coal.

    4. Re:And the answer is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can also supplement with solar thermal arrays for the hot summer sunshine months.

    5. Re:And the answer is... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Derek, as has been shown there is a LARGE amount of heat down there. But what you speak of is about efficiencies, not capabilities.

      That's because efficiency is what determines whether or not it's economic or not. Handwaving about how many wells there are, and invoking magic pixie dust generators to exploit them, and unicorn horn transmission lines to move the power about (and house elves, who work for the occasional bit of old clothing to do the maintenance) is all well and good... But in the real world, all these things have costs. And costs matter a great deal.

    6. Re:And the answer is... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      A number of studies have already shown that this is economically feasible. In fact, since the majority of the shallow wells is in the west, and water is the limiter, the small 50-100 KW plants are very economical (air cooling). Keep in mind that bulk of expense in geo-thermal is not the power plant, but the well. These shallow wells power plants are less expensive than coal plants to run. The issue is how to make use of the old oil wells. There are several ideas being worked on in which the base of the well is expanded and a loop thrown in. Another approach is doing vertical EGS. But the one that holds a lot of promise for the west was doing the shallow well with small units, but add a solar thermal unit to raise the heat during the daytime. That allows for higher generation, while allowing geo-thermal to work all night.

      In addition, a number of studies, but one major one, have shown that this is not just feasible, but downright CHEAP. That study and others have lead to Potter Drilling as well as Foro Energy targeting DEEP geothermal and making it cheap.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:And the answer is... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that bulk of expense in geo-thermal is not the power plant, but the well.

      And the transmission lines to tie it to the grid and the data lines for control and monitoring, and maintenance, and.. and.. and.. all those other things you keep conveniently forgetting.
       
      And it's interesting that to 'prove' how viable it is, you link to a company that manufactures lasers and a company whose primary income stream seems to be drilling technology... seeing as how all there on their webpage about geothermal is a graphic showing how wonderful geothermal could be if someone would happen along and pay them for an 'engineered solution'.
       

      A number of studies have already shown that this is economically feasible.

      Yet... nobody seems in a hurry to actually build any. That says much more than any number of blue ribbon studies and pie-in-the-sky web pages proclaiming how great geothermal could be.

    8. Re:And the answer is... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that bulk of expense in geo-thermal is not the power plant, but the well.

      And the transmission lines to tie it to the grid and the data lines for control and monitoring, and maintenance, and.. and.. and.. all those other things you keep conveniently forgetting.

      Hmmm. Lets see. They drill and then run an oil well. What powered the oil well? Oh yeah, electricity. For most of the oil wells that have existed since late 1960s, they have power lines running to them, esp. for the low production wells. Interesting thing about power lines these days. You can now send IP over power. Neat tech. You should look it up. Regardless, the expensive part of geo-thermal is the well. For a normal shallow well, it accounts for about 55-60% of the costs. In an EGS system, it accounts for 90% or more. The next major expense is cooling for large systems (which is not the case for these small systems). The rest is low costs. The connection to the grid on wind generators is high because they typically located the wind generator out in the middle of a field and now have to carry a couple 100 MW of power from it. Maintenance, yes. Less work than is needed for oil wells. And this is not what I am forgetting. The fact is, that geo-thermal in shallow wells costs around $.03-05/kwH. Geothermal from an already established well, is much less than that.

      And it's interesting that to 'prove' how viable it is, you link to a company that manufactures lasers and a company whose primary income stream seems to be drilling technology... seeing as how all there on their webpage about geothermal is a graphic showing how wonderful geothermal could be if someone would happen along and pay them for an 'engineered solution'.

      I linked to foro because I happen to know that they consider geo-thermal as one of their main focuses. I have talked to them from some time. They have landed large money from the feds as well as other groups for doing deep wells . They will shortly have this in production for drilling cheap wells at 10-20'K.

      A number of studies have already shown that this is economically feasible.

      Yet... nobody seems in a hurry to actually build any. That says much more than any number of blue ribbon studies and pie-in-the-sky web pages proclaiming how great geothermal could be.

      Odd that you say that. Geo-thermal outside of America and Europe is one of the fastest growing AE going. Most of Central America expects to be on 100% geo-thermal over the next 15 years. Iceland same. Indonesia. Phillipines. Japan expects to make geo-thermal about 10% PRIOR to the nuke over the next 15 years. My bet is that they will increase this greatly. Australia has 5 different EGS systems going in. And all of this is without the massive subsidies that nuke, coal, oil, natural gas, corn-based ethanol, solar, and wind enjoy (in that order).

      Look, at this time, you argue without any knowledge of the situation. Heck, I am betting that you back nukes or 'clean' coal, and would love dearly not to see this. However, America's problem is because we became dependent on a so few items and allowed them to be a monopoly. Time to spread the generation amongst different tech and avoid the nightmare.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    9. Re:And the answer is... by wrook · · Score: 1

      Japan expects to make geo-thermal about 10% PRIOR to the nuke over the next 15 years.

      Japan currently has 18 geo-thermel wells for a total of 540 MW of power. As far as I know there
      are no extensive plans to increase that amount drastically. The US already has over 3,000 MW of
      geothermal energy, even though Japan has much more potential. This excellent article
      outlines some of the problems that are associated with geothermal power generation
      in Japan: http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2011/05/japans-geothermal-resources-gets-a-closer-look

      If you have a reference for plans for getting to 10% in 15 years (highly aggressive since
      it takes a good 10 years to develop a well), I would love to see it. I live in Japan and
      have been advocating geothermal energy to others when I can, but even the local
      environmental groups around here seem to have blinders when it comes to
      geothermal.

    10. Re:And the answer is... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      If it's close to a transmission line it doesn't matter so much if it's not near a major population centre. That's why a survey of likely geothermal energy sources was done in Australia along the path of the major transmission lines.
      The best location for temperature difference found in Australia is actually under an oilfield (which isn't continous of course) and nearly in the middle of the country. Unfortunately that's a very long way from any existing transmission lines. It may still be a viable location to power a very large Uranium mine that is within a few hundred kilometres. Most large scale mining gear (including many large ore trucks) runs on electricity now.
      However drilling deep holes (~1km) is ridiculously expensive which makes pilot plants a big gamble.

    11. Re:And the answer is... by fgouget · · Score: 1

      You need much better than 150-200C to run turbines efficiently. Much, much better preferably.

      And generating electricity is not the only useful thing you can do with geothermal energy. With temperatures as low as 70C you can use it for heating (even ~55C is enough if your heating system is modern enough). And this has been used on a large scale for decades already. For instance, in the Paris area, 170,000 housing equivalents are currently heated with geothermal energy (and no, nothing to do with heat pumps).

    12. Re:And the answer is... by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Yet... nobody seems in a hurry to actually build any. That says much more than any number of blue ribbon studies and pie-in-the-sky web pages proclaiming how great geothermal could be.

      Not true at all. Solar power plants were also extremely rare until very, very recently. If the return on investment is just a bit lower than the alternative, nobody is interested. If the skills needed are just slightly rare or slightly unusual, it represents expense and risk, and nobody is interested. Breaking out of a rut, and into new technologies takes a lot of effort, and so requires a lot of upside, to get things bootstrapped.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. Potential risk of earthquake? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is the risk of causing earthquakes by injecting water into the geothermal wells?

    Deep well injection has caused earthquakes before:
    http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/faq/?categoryID=1&faqID=1

    1. Re:Potential risk of earthquake? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      How large of earthquakes? If you are talking about 6 on up, then it is MINOR chance. It is really only possible if you have unknown fault lines and inject into those.
      . Why do I say this? Because we have been injecting CO2 into the ground for decades. Now, if you look at the CO2 injection, you will find that there are LOADS of earthquakes from it. Down in Ms,Mi, Ak, and Lo, they are having constant 2-4's and they are believed to be caused by CO2 injection.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  35. Certainties in Life by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Death
    Taxes
    Dumbasses

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  36. Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone know of a similar project for Canada? I'd love to see the data.

  37. Why so deep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why always dealing with such mega project deep drilling stuff? There are plenty of opportunities to offset a lot of your heating and cooling with low grade geothermal like the "geoair" fellow did with his "citrusinthesnow.com" work.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxlrQ5gDdGY

  38. Ford didn't take a bailout by witherstaff · · Score: 1

    Just to nitpick, Ford didn't take a bailout. GM and Chrysler did.

    1. Re:Ford didn't take a bailout by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      I agree. However, neither Ford nor GM are really working towards electric. GM's volt was to be a serial which then moved to parallel. Why? because management wanted more parts on it. How stupid can you be. GM and Fords MBA's are their own worse enemies.

      When we bailed out GM and Chrysler, i kept saying that we should break them up. Instead, we gave away chrysler and it is now being gutted, while GM closed divisions. All in all, the bail-outs were the worse possible ideas going. Total idiots.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  39. from tfa by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    There's a quote in the article "Conventional U.S. geothermal production has been restricted largely to the western third of the country in geographically unique and tectonically active locations."

    If you look at the map, it's abundantly clear why. Until recently, geothermal tech required fairly hot temps to be useful; the map shows that all of the areas where it would work well were predictably in the western third of the country.

    Full map direct link at http://www.smu.edu/News/2011/~/media/Images/News/2011/Fall%202011/geothermal-UnitedStates-google-SMUlogo-14oct2011.ashx

    --
    -Styopa
  40. Centralization=bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Several comments... first, some few people will take control of centralized systems—and several-km-deep systems are going to be large and centralized—and figure out how to make the product artificially scarce to enhance profits. Geothermal of any sort will be a significant improvement, but decentralized energy production would make the planet a far better place for individuals to live. Ask anyone who's unplugged from the grid—they might sleep well at night having saved Earth from drilling/spills/climate change/mountaintop removal/fish kills/mine explosions/mercury poisoning/etc., but they get excited about being independent—not just from OPEC but from large corporations and government.

    Second, people misunderstand substitution commodities. Let's take a horribly inefficient proposal: use electricity instead of petroleum for every step of corn ethanol production (tractors, fertilizer, distillation, all of it). Now our cars are fueled by electricity, which can be pumped into the tank anywhere in the country just like gasoline. Corn ethanol IS ridiculous, but there are a lot of ways to produce liquid fuels using electricity that make sense if electricity is cheap and isn't produced at the expense of the environment.

    Third, I'd like to see Google actually build some deep facilities, since they have a different motivation than energy companies and speculators. Google certainly causes some unwanted things to happen, but they've offset the MAFIAA, M$ + Apple, and Internet throttlers to some degree for various selfish reasons, but to the benefit of citizens and consumers. Leading the way into deep geo could only help soften the energy oligopoly.

  41. Inb4 idiots saying "it will last forever, idiot". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To everyone "arguing" that it will last forever: Watch this video: Albert Bartlett: Arithmetic, Population and Energy

    Maybe then you'll understand, that NO it will not at all last forever. Because growth is exponential! That means that only 7% growth will mean a doubling every 10 years. And a thousand times more every 100 years. Calculate that using the energy earth needs nowadays, and it will be clear that we will lose our magnetic field way quicker that you think.

    Every single approach that is not using renewable 100% environmentally (not just carbon. EVERYTHING.) neutral cycles fueled by sunlight, is thought up by a idiocy-riddled ignorant brain who can't think further than around the next corner/election, and doomed to fail.

  42. Re:Geothermal issues / Germany by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 1

    There was a town in Euroland, German to be precise, a few years back which suffereed some very serious damage after beginning to use geothermal power. Some how that seems to be a pretty negative side effect.

  43. geothermal cooling - passive solar- thermal mass by bd580slashdot · · Score: 1

    One of the best and easiest ways to use the temperature of the earth is for passive cooling with convection. There are houses built with south facing attached greenhouses that gather solar energy. The houses are built of rammed earth and bermed earth about 5 feet thick surrounded with high value insulation. This entire thermal mass is heated to 70 degrees (or whatever you pick) and can keep the whole home at that temperature for an entire winter even when it is freezing outside. Here's the geothermal part. When the house gets too warm a skylight opens up in the front of the house where the greenhouse is. In the back of the house insulated covers open up on the ends of about 1 foot diameter tubes which are buried in the earth, pass through the heated thermal mass and insulation and run under the cool earth outside for about 30 feet before surfacing in a cover and screened opening for intake. The hot air goes up and out the skylight. Air is drawn through the tubes and cooled by the earth. Convection climate control. These houses also collect all their own water, reuse it four times and have zero water or sewage output. Greywater through indoor planters, flushes your toilet, to outdoor planters, all converted to harvestable plants. Power from the wind and the sun. Earthships. earthship.org

  44. ELECTRICITY != OIL by petermgreen · · Score: 1

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/LLNL_US_Energy_Flow_2009.png

    Notice how amount of oil used to make electricity is NEGLIGIBLE compared to either the total amount of energy used to make electricity or the total amount of oil used. Electricity comes mostly from natural gas, coal, nuclear and hydro (in that order).

    --
    note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    1. Re:ELECTRICITY != OIL by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Sorrry I screwed up that last list slightly, it should be coal, natural gas, nuclear and hydro (in that order)

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  45. Re: Coal fired airplanes by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

    First, I dare you to design coal-powered cars and airplanes.

    That was done 30 years ago. The Boeing Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) used a kerosine/coal slurry fuel. Increasing fuel energy extends the range of the missile. Coal is nearly twice the density of kerosine, so even though it has slightly less energy per weight, it has a higher energy per volume. So they mixed finely ground coal in with the kerosine, but not to the point it would not pump.

  46. Hazards of Geothermal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know about everyone else here, but doesn't geothermal energy help produce earthquakes? http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-03/does-geothermal-power-cause-earthquakes I suppose it matters if you have passive heating/cooling geothermal set up, but the more active energy-generating plants could possibly cause some adverse side effects.

  47. Misleading by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article is quite misleading "capable of producing more than three million megawatts of green power"

    It is hardly "green" (environmentally friendly) - you waste vast quantities of water which comes up radioactive and polluted, and you potentially pollute the water table. A typical "closed" cycle loses 30% of the water on each trip.

    Its not sustainable (you suck out the heat within a field within a decade or so) so then you need to move on. Just like mining coal...

    Its astonishingly hard to do technologically at a reasonable cost (else why do you not see it more widely used)

    And finding hot rocks is the least of the problems - you need the right sort of rock you can frack.

    Just because there is squillions of joules of energy underground does not necessarily make it a useful power source.... Another unfortunate truth.

  48. Google: Smart on Search, Stupid on Everything Else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google has some very smart people on search optimization. They're pretty stupid on everything else.

    People need electricity. To run computers and smart phones and wireless and wired networks to use Google in the first place. Along with air conditioners, washing machines, dishwashers, in many places stoves and ovens, coffee makers, and nearly everything else. This electricity use has a near constant floor, and often peaks under really hot days, or really cold ones. The more power people have, the cleaner their water, the less pollution (from burning coal or wood, look at London's transition from hellish coal-smog to fairly nice with modern electricity), and the better their lives are. TED has a video posted on Youtube about how washing machines transformed the lives of ordinary women from total wash-drudgery (all day, laborious) to a casual chore.

    Wind requires a lot of carbon to create, kills LOTS of endangered birds particularly raptors, is ugly to look at, and is useless when its really hot and the wind is not blowing. It also does not scale, a small Natural Gas plant can provide the same electricity as say, covering a small county with windmills, and it produces it when the wind is not blowing. Wind is great in Mongolia, where the question is, power when its windy, or no power at all (because no one is going to build powerplants away from mining sites or run transmission lines). The same goes for solar, massively inefficient, useless at night, and requires massive mining pollution just to create the panels and batteries.

    Geothermal is another unicorn. A myth not reality -- its located in places that are national parks (Yellowstone, etc) or away from population centers. Its not available for the population centers of the East (you tell Granny she's going to freeze to death because we just can't get geothermal in Boston). It does not SCALE -- the technology to build a cheap (relatively) and efficient Natural Gas or Oil fueled plant exists now, is well understood, and doesn't pose massive risks like nuclear in the case of tsunamis or earthquakes. You can build them big or small, add new generators, and run them day or night, windy or calm. In places where there is no or little geothermal activity.

    Google is filled with guys really smart about search who want something for nothing; a unicorn and rainbow world without sacrifice or struggle. They'd laugh at you if you suggested that their search engine results just happen by "magic" without man-decades of sweat, intellectual effort, and tears. They expect however that to happen with energy. Because they want all the nice things that power brings, including their business existing at all, but not the compromises that all that energy at affordable prices bring. In a lot of ways, outside their narrow area of expertise Google is filled with stupid people.

  49. Global Energy Loss? by wanzeo · · Score: 1

    If the whole planet starts using geothermal, are we not simply transferring energy from inside the earth to the surface where it can radiate into space? How long before our precious magnetic field is gone? This story seems familiar........

    But seriously, if anyone with a more rigorous physics background than me could give some insight, I am genuinely curious.

    1. Re:Global Energy Loss? by wrook · · Score: 1

      This is based on my own back of an envelope calculation only, so I could be wrong. However, in comparison to other phenomena in the solar system, we don't actually use that much energy. I once looked at the increase in ocean temperatures due to global climate change, calculated how much energy that was and compared it to how much energy we use in a year. We use quite a bit less that the energy that we accumulate simply from global climate change (whatever the cause). It was a while ago, so I leave it as an exercise to the reader to verify my results. The amount of geothermal energy available is many orders of magnitude more than we use. In other words, it won't make any difference.

  50. Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Take a VERY close look at the pacific coast. Two things I found interesting.

    Note the shape of the USA 50km along the pacific coast, notice how it's all cool until you get to LA. Now go back north to Mendocino. This shape suggests something interesting about the geological activity of the pacific coast. It seems like the true continental edge is 50 km or so away from where the ocean is now.

    This is somewhat worrying in that maybe a Tsunami could take out that much coastline.

    1. Re:Interesting by Killer+Instinct · · Score: 1

      It is more worrying that someone like you knows how to find slashdot.org.

      --
      #include bier;
  51. The math doesn't work by gstrickler · · Score: 1

    US energy consumption in the US in 2008 = 26,560 TWh. Of that, 11,710 TWh (11.71 PWh) was from oil (in 2006 because 2008 figures not given).

    Estimate of total geothermal energy that can be extracted worldwide = 35GWe - 2,000GWe (with a 10%-23% conversion efficiency). Assuming the high end 23% was used for the 2,000 GWe estimate, therefore 2000/.23 ~ 8,700 GWt. Assuming 100% uptime for the plants (not possible, but it won't matter), that's 24 * 365.25 * 8,700 GW = 76,264 GWh/t maximum worldwide capacity. The US has 9.83M km2 of surface area, which is ~6.6% of the world land surface (149M km2), and 1.9% of earth's total surface area. Being very optimistic, the US might have access to 10% of that maximum geothermal energy, or 7,626 GWh/t and more realistically somewhere between 2% (1,525 GWh/t) and 5% (3,813 GWh/t) of the highest estimate of worldwide geothermal energy possible. All of those are significantly less than our current oil consumption.

    Achieving high rates of geothermal energy extraction also requires use of enhanced geothermal systems which have been shown to trigger significant seismic activity, so it's unlikely we can even replace 10% of our oil consumption with geothermal energy.

    The only sustainable/renewable sources that can actually provide all the power we're currently using are solar (*1), wind, and nuclear (*2). Other sources such as hydro, geothermal, wave/tidal/ocean, can supply part of the energy we consume, but all such sources combined can't supply even 25% of current worldwide power consumption, therefore, solar, wind, and nuclear have to be the staples of any sustainable energy plan.

    Solar and wind both require installation of 3x-5x average demand because they're intermittent sources and because production varies throughout the year. Both require a higher capacity grid that spans multiple countries (or the globe) because they're intermittent. Solar, wind, and nuclear all require some form of energy storage because they don't react quickly to meet peak demand.

    So, we have 3 viable primary sources for sustainable energy, all 3 have some significant issues to address. All require major upgrades to the electricity grid. All have environmental and political concerns to address. All have cost and energy storage issues to address. They can be addressed, and it will take time, money, and commitment.

    *1 - I'm including biomass/biofuels in with solar, but because of the land, water, and nutrient requirements, I doubt they can contribute a significant portion (> ~10%) of a sustainable energy plan. They're useful mostly for production of liquid fuels for mobile applications.

    *2 - The current nuclear power model (uranium fueled fission) without fuel reprocessing is not sustainable, we'll exhaust the uranium in a few thousand years, and it produces far too much radioactive waste. Sustainable nuclear requires transitioning to primarily thorium fueled breeder reactors with fuel reprocessing, or a breakthrough in fusion.

    --
    make imaginary.friends COUNT=100 VISIBLE=false
  52. Other nations by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Interestingly there's plate tectonics running pretty much down the Western edge of the entire Americas. Proportionally speaking Central and South America are probably even richer in geothermal resources than the US is. And we all know about Iceland. I wonder what a map like this of Europe and Northern India would look like, and Sichuan province in China. Japan, Indonesia and New Zealand and probably Australia are rich with the stuff. That's like - almost everybody. Maybe free energy has been all around us this whole time.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  53. Where's my state? by aklinux · · Score: 1

    Interesting map. I guess Alaska isn't part of the US. Neither is Hawaii. Interesting considering Alaska probably has more geothermal potential than the rest of the US put together. Hawaii may be right up there as well as long as Alaska isn't counted, and Google apparently doesn't.

  54. Imagination vs. Change by Kevin+Fishburne · · Score: 1

    Someday there will be a public outcry against cooling the core and weakening the Earth's magnetic field by excessively mining geothermic energy. Everyone will laugh at first (like now).

    Free energy could be the great equalizer of nations, who knows?

    --
    Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
  55. I'm not up on the latest in PV by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Have they figured out how to make PV elements that over their lifetime generate more energy than the energy required to make them? This is not a troll. I really don't know and want to. Last I checked they hadn't done this, and the issue isn't addressed in your link.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:I'm not up on the latest in PV by Spoke · · Score: 1

      They've been energy positive for ages now. Currently most modules "break even" after producing power for somewhere between 1-3 years. For example, REC claims that their modules have an energy payback time of 1 year.

      Your typical PV system's EROI is currently around 10 to 1 over their lifetime - meaning that they will produce about 10 times the energy required to build and install the system.

    2. Re:I'm not up on the latest in PV by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      They have. Energy payback time for a PV panel is about 1-5 years these days. EROEI is somewhat hard to calculate, so the values that you see are spanning a wide range, also depending on the type of the panel and manufacturing process, but in general, over the whole lifetime, a panel nets 5-30 times the energy expended in its production.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    3. Re:I'm not up on the latest in PV by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Thanks. This is fabulous. In the context of TFA this means that excess geothermal energy production can be used to manufacture PV for sites appropriate for PV that don't have geothermal resources but do have solar resources. PV has moved from a storage medium to a generation medium. I think that's cool. If the equator becomes an uninhabitable zone due to global warming it can still be a belt of energy production. This is great news.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    4. Re:I'm not up on the latest in PV by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      If the things took "more energy to make than the energy they produce" they would never turn a profit.

      Clearly, since some of them DO turn a profit after a number of years the "take more energy" thing is false. The specifics of how are irrelevant.

      How much energy they use is irrelevant as well, it's how much the person using it pays that counts. Very very little "green" things happen successfully until the money side is straightened out. Electric cars have been around for almost a century in one form or another, but just now are becoming useful economically.

      Stop listening to the rapist Glenn Beck and his ilk. It's making you dumb. The same lie was said about hybrid vehicles.

  56. Re:Geothermal issues / Germany by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

    True, but that is not an inherent flaw of geothermal, they just royally fucked up their geological survey before drilling. Basically, they opened up a watertight layer that had protected a formation of anhydrous gypsum. Water went in, gypsum expanded, ground level rose accordingly... No profit.

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  57. Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    I don't know why we are always chasing after these rainbow-colored unicorns.

    We haven't even gone after the low-hanging fruit. Most of these fantasy rainbow unicorn solutions are dirtier than their salesman will ever admit. The simplest solutions are usually the best. A glass tube with a black pipe in it... it's cheap to make, doesn't require much energy, and can offset 50% of the electricity we use, since we use about half of all of the electricity we generate to heat water.

    They're cheap, reliable, durable, and I haven't needed to pay for hot water in years. I don't even have a backup water heater. I don't need one. The system works even when it is cloudy. It also comes in handy for heating the house in the winter.

    We need to chase after cheap, simple solutions. We're allowing government to get duped by snake-oil salesmen into pissing billions of taxpayer dollars down the rabbit hole after these fantasy projects that never pay off. You could put a glass-tube solar hot water heater on 30,000 homes for what the taxpayer wasted on Solyndra - a company selling net energy loss technology.

    1. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Why the glass tube? How about just a black pipe?

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
    2. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by hidave · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm, would an ordinary 100 ft black hose coiled up in a container with a glass cover work as well?

      --
      Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
    3. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      The glass is an insulator to prevent heat escaping. Without it, the pipes would simply try to be whatever temperature the air was (especially bad with our windy winters here). With the glass, the pipes are basically in a greenhouse.

    4. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      Probably not, but I'm an Emag guy, not a thermo guy.

      The glass makes a good insulator and greenhouse effect inside the tube. The copper pipe is a good conductor of heat from the warm air in the "greenhouse" to the water in the pipe. I don't think the rubber hose would be a very efficient conductor of the heat.

    5. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by hidave · · Score: 1

      Thanks. What I was thinking was that the hose itself would get hot from direct illumination from the sun, and conduct heat into the water, rather than conducting heat from the warm air through the hose into the water. The cover on the container would simply be to keep the hose from cooling through convection, especially in the winter. I have noticed that my 100 ft, 3/4" black hose, after sitting in the sun for an hour or so, that the water is too hot to touch until it all runs out, which is about 3 gal by my calculations. It seems a shame to waste that heat. Of course, by the time I buy the thermocouples, valves, CPVC pipe, and pumps, I might have expended all the potential savings in my utility bill.

      --
      Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
    6. Re:Glass Pipe Solar Water Heat by LanMan04 · · Score: 1

      Ah, understood, I thought they were already "inside" behind a window or skylight or something.

      --
      With the first link, the chain is forged.
  58. Why "correct" me with something that is wrong? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    The "science" is called metallurgy and I was a metallurgist for a few years and I've seen what you think you are describing a few times in a steelworks.
    It's called top blowing when oxygen is added to reduce the carbon content and at no point do steel tubes directly contact any molten iron because the stuff is very corrosive to steel - it dissolves almost like sugar in water (although a little bit more slowly) instead of slowly melting like ice. The stuff is coated with refractory materials, which are ceramics that can withstand the conditions and can easily be replaced.

  59. No, that's the Tholian Web... by WebManWalking · · Score: 1

    ...not the Thorium Web. Thanks for the nerdy tangent, however.

  60. Geothermal is expensive!! by hidave · · Score: 1

    If geothermal sources were affordable to get to, they would already have been exploited. As the population increases, energy needs and costs will increase perhaps bringing geothermal costs within reason to go after. In any case, the cheap geothermal will be had first, and it will get WAY expensive after that because it is just WAY down there. Posts have discussed shipping the energy across the country, but a major major expense will just be drilling the massive holes miles down to get it. You need many holes (tens to hundreds) at each site, each several miles deep. You are talking serious money here, and money historically has always been the reason things are done (or not done). BTW there might be an environmental impact to be considered too; namely, bringing all that heat to the surface and releasing it into the atmosphere is bound to cause global warming.

    --
    Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
  61. Not news by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    While it's moderately interesting that Google are funding research into geothermal energy, no doubt for their own excellent business reasons and with a credible claim to some vanilla altruism too, this is hardly a virgin field of research.

    Geothermal mapping has been happening for decades, publicly and privately funded, in many countries of the world. The potential is real, though the technological challenges are real too (how do you drill a well in rock that's hot enough to turn your drilling fluid super-critical? I work in drilling, and I see it as a whole host of inter-related problems. Which is not saying that it's impossible, just that it's difficult. And therefore it's expensive. Which you've got to make economical within certain energy price ranges.)

    Example : USGS map of geothermal potentials, dated 2008 ; a little research will give you ones dated further back for some areas.(This link appears very flaky - I can't get the PDF to download fully, but the cover page implies there are maps there.)
    A page with working maps back to 2006.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"