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Microsoft Killing Silverlight?

SharkLaser writes "Silverlight 5 might be last version released by Microsoft. Several industry insiders and partners for the last few weeks have heard from their own Microsoft sources that there won't be new versions released after Silverlight 5. Status on service packs and support for Silverlight is unclear, as Microsoft haven't yet released lifecycle support end date even for the previous Silverlight 4. By their support page they will give full year head-up before ending support. With Adobe ending development of Flash for mobile browsers and Microsoft ending development of Silverlight, HTML5 video looks a lot more promising. But will content providers be able to give out their material without DRM and how does HTML5 perform with non-video side of Flash and Silverlight?"

324 comments

  1. And... by TheP4st · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...nothing of value were lost.

    --
    "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    1. Re:And... by muon-catalyzed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      HTML5 will get crippled down soon over 'security considerations' just wait a few months... Flash was really a dangerous hybrid that allowed apps on the web, they do not want web apps eating your real paid apps lunch. This strangely binds all, Apple, Microsoft and even Adobe, pawing the way for the appstore only deliveries for software and securing their corporate cut.

    2. Re:And... by MrNthDegree · · Score: 2

      The important parts (,) will remain, as the same codecs would be as vulnerable in WMP as they would be in IE on Windows. On Linux, we wouldn't care anyway as we have SELinux and AppArmor securing Chromium by default and Firefox (mozilla_t) on lockdown too. Mac OS X? Well that has never really been that secure anyway!

    3. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Adobe Flash was like having another proprietary browser inside the browser. Nothing the browser makers could do would lock it down (except for unloading the plugin). The advantage of HTML5 is that Mozilla/Google/Apple/Microsoft can place restrictions on how subfeatures are implemented. Out-of-tab & off-page animations can be halted. Storage can be blocked for cross-site requests. Video can refuse to play automatically. Canvas can require explicit permission. Shaders can be statically verified & limited to a stricter subset of GLSL. Etc.

    4. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As spoken by an ignoramus who obviously never even bothered to try it.

      http://riastats.com/#

      Eat it, you Adobe fanboi.

      lol

    5. Re:And... by hairyfeet · · Score: 0, Troll

      How's that FLOSSie koolaid? Is it cherry? if you had bothered to use anything besides "XP Corporate Razr1911 Edition" you'd know that both Chrome and IE have low rights mode by default so that the browser actually has LOWER permissions than even the user does. Does Linux? Nope, same privileges. Nice try but its a swing and a miss. Hell Linux sever has more open vulnerabilities right now according to Securina, be happy to post the links if you like.

      As for TFA all those cheering HTML V5 is gonna get bit right in the ass and i'm gonna laugh, oh how I'm gonna laugh. in my own tests even SD video on HTML V5 sucks up a hell of a lot more CPU and memory than flash, from the looks of it Apple will ram through H.264 as the format for HTML V5 as everyone wants to get into the fat money the iShiny is making, so there goes any freedom you thought you'd get, and if you think the movie companies are gonna give up their DRM I have a nice bridge you'd be interested in so I wouldn't be surprised if you end up with a version of HTML V5 that won't even play on Linux thanks to lack of kernel level DRM like Windows and Apple has.

      So give it five years, hell give it three, I bet all those that are cheering HTML V5 thinking it'll "free the web!" is gonna be looking back and thinking they never had it so good. The default answer on every forum will be "Go buy a copy of Windows, install into VM, then watch video" thus ensuring even less people will deal with the hoops jumping than before. hell MSFT couldn't have asked for a better prezzie!

      Oh and before anyone says "Google will save us!" I predict Google will just take their nice GPL V2 kernel and lock the fuck out of it, thus letting them sign the NDA and getting their own DRM kernel module so they can play HTML V5 protected content. this helps Google as it gives them one more selling point to OEMs, and when even grandma knows about the little green robot frankly they don't need the hackers anymore. Final score for HTML V5? Bloated DRM that lets the big three, Apple, Google, and MSFT split the market and fucks the smaller OSes like Linux right out the market. Hell at least with Adobe they did give you flash, even if it was usually behind. Is there even a legal H.264 codec for Linux yet?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:And... by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

      I tried it once. I went to a Microsoft web site (their version of Google's "Webmaster tools") which required that I download and execute their code. I did it. You wouldn't believe how shitty that site turned out to be, all in the name of avoiding HTML. You couldn't select and copy text, and you couldn't open links in another tab.

      I'm convinced the only reason they did it, was to make suckers like me install silverlight. It was truly worse-than-useless garbage, every bit as bad as Flash.

      --
      "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
    7. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is exactly why Google is pushing for NaCl? Or...

    8. Re:And... by rastoboy29 · · Score: 0

      You seem to think:

      a) HTML5 can be crippled
      b) somebody is in an authority position to do so.

      No.  Don't worry about that--we have plenty of real problems.

    9. Re:And... by danomac · · Score: 1

      If you bothered to use something besides XP, you'd have noticed that IE is launched in a sandbox of sorts.

      It's pretty easy to test. Put a Word document (or something similar) up to your websites and download it through IE, clicking on the "Open" button. Word will launch and inherit the same rights as your browser (which isn't allowed to write to your Documents or Desktop folders) and saving will fail with a permissions issue.

    10. Re:And... by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 0

      Either you are bluffing, or those numbers aren't even, so go ahead and post the links. My guess is that linux may well have more open vulnerabilities, but the Microsoft ones will be more severe.

    11. Re:And... by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      Don't let facts get in the way of his cynical pessimism.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    12. Re:And... by unrtst · · Score: 1

      Adobe Flash was like having another proprietary browser inside the browser.

      Which is one of the few things that made it *good*.

      I despise proprietary stuff, but HTML5 is an open floodgate allowing Mozilla/Google/Apple/Microsoft/Opera/etc to implement whatever bits of it they like just about however they like and add on whatever extra stuff they want... especially considering it's an evolving standard. I remember how that went from the Netscape/IE battle days, and it's not pretty.

      At least with Flash (and, btw, I don't develop/design in it or even own it - besides my ancient copy of Flash3), there was a stable target specification (specified via codification - code can be a spec, see The Design of Design). Whatever you made in Flash worked in (nearly) ALL browsers exactly because it basically did everything inside itself.

      IMO, this is one of the dumbest things Adobe has ever done, even if it will end up saving me hours of battery life a day :-)

    13. Re:And... by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Is there even a legal H.264 codec for Linux yet?

      You can use VA-API or another such framework to pass the H.264 stream directly to the hardware for decoding. There are of course also software codecs in ffmpeg, but these carry patent implications, at least in the US. Sending the bitstream to hardware (which has already paid the license fee on the manufacturer side) should be safe.

    14. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that actually happens, it's by design. The low-integrity tab process should be communicating an "open document [x]" message to the med-integrity browser process. This design is the reason why IE can write to the Downloads folder. I suppose it opens Word under protected mode because the document can be malformed.

    15. Re:And... by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      > You wouldn't believe how shitty that site turned out to be, all in the name of avoiding
      > HTML. You couldn't select and copy text, and you couldn't open links in another tab.

      Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding... we have a winner. This is *EXACTLY* what the MAFIAA wants. A locked-down system that doesn't allow copying. I'm surprised that MS is dropping it.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    16. Re:And... by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, since there is a much more varied competition where no one browser can assess sufficient domination to create its own spinoff tech, we'll just see a normalization of browser support and a generally better standard which is agreed upon by consensus as opposed to chosen by a single company. Any gimmic would be virtually impossible to push without support from other browser vendors, at which point you might as well just get it in the spec.

      I also don't see how exactly you could ever trust Adobe alone more than Mozilla, Opera, Google, the W3C and others, all watching their backs.

    17. Re:And... by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Sure thing friend, but remember, be careful what you wish for!

      Get ready, here they come! Kinda makes that koolaid just a little bitter now, don't it? I believe in using the best tool for the job, but to say Linux is secure or better than any other complex OS is frankly bullshit. Hell I was talking to a 15 year Linux admin on one of the other sites that had gotten so sick of Linux fuckups they were going to BSD and if THAT didn't "just work" they were gonna wash their hands of FLOSS on the desktop and just go Mac.

      BTW if you'd like a little more food for thought, what OS was 3 of the 4 CAs running that were compromised? take a look and see. Maybe they just had configs? Surely someone with knowledge would be safe right? Guess again and its not a fluke by any means.

      BTW if you wish to run Linux because its cheap/free, or to make a political statement? Not a problem with me, I'm personally gonna try out FreeBSD on turkey week to see if I can lower my costs on refurbs. But to pretend that Linux is a magical woobie that makes you hack proof like the one I was responding to (Notice how I was labeled troll for pointing out his "Herp derp, Linux is safe herp derp" was bullshit? Enjoy that groupthink koolaid) then you deserve a good smacking. News Flash: ALL OSES ARE COMPLEX,COMPLEXITY LEADS TO BUGS BUGS LEAD TO HACKS. There USED to be smart people here on Slashdot that knew basics like this, but now its a fanboi jerkoff. As soon as I find a decent OS site i'll be moving on, and if you look at how far /. numbers have dropped i'm far from being the only one sick of being handed Koolaid.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    18. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to that site: For the latest OS Kernels (Windows 7 vs. Linux 2.6)

      MS Windows 7

      Affected By
      90 Secunia advisories
      181 Vulnerabilities

      Unpatched
      6% (5 of 90 Secunia advisories)

      Most Critical Unpatched
      The most severe unpatched Secunia advisory affecting Microsoft Windows 7, with all vendor patches applied, is rated ** Highly critical ** .

      ---

      Linux Kernel 2.6

      Affected By
      281 Secunia advisories
      604 Vulnerabilities

      Unpatched
      6% (18 of 281 Secunia advisories)

      Most Critical Unpatched
      The most severe unpatched Secunia advisory affecting Linux Kernel 2.6.x, with all vendor patches applied, is rated ** Less critical **.

      This tells a number of things. 1) The Linux guys have the same patch rate % but have managed to fix the more severe vulnerabilities because somehow MS has managed to leave a highly critical vulnerability unpatched. 2) We have no idea of the overall severity of the vulnerabilities. 3) We can be pretty sure (but not certain of course) that there are vulnerabilities in Windows that are not disclosed, that is the nature of the beast. 4) You're a dick, and of that we can be certain.

    19. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, don't feed this troll, just check his posting history. The statistic are real but cherry picked. He has been disproved before. Move on - nothing to see here.

    20. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't look like any of those posted vulnerabilities affect newish 3.0 kernels. That's one of the benefits of open source, fixes can be found so much quicker. Also, there's the "let's make this as good as we can" philosophy versus the "make it just good enough to sell".

    21. Re:And... by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      As Anon below said, the linux vulnerabilities are of much lower severity than the windows ones. Also, I *never* stated (as you imply) that linux makes you magically protected, only that it is *better*. Well, I think I'm all out of troll food...

    22. Re:And... by LukeWebber · · Score: 1

      Working in Silverlight right now, and I completely agree. I never thought I'd find a more screwed-up mess of markup and code than the usual web technologies (HTML,/CSS/JavaScript), but with Silverlight, M$ managed to create one.

    23. Re:And... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The advantage of HTML5 is that Mozilla/Google/Apple/Microsoft can place restrictions on how subfeatures are implemented.

      don't you mean the DISadvantage of HTML5 is that Mozilla/Google/Apple/Microsoft can place restrictions on how subfeatures are implemented?
      So much for expecting something to look/work the same on all browsers thanks to Flash (which has 98%+ permeation).
      http://www.findmebyip.com/litmus/

      If/when browsers have a significantly compatible interpretation of HTML5, Adobe would be an idiot if they didn't roll out a user-friendly flash-esque dev environment that relies instead on HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript.

  2. Netflix by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Doesn't Netflix use Silverlight for streaming? Will Netflix move to some other technology?

    1. Re:Netflix by imamac · · Score: 4, Funny

      They do indeed use Silverlight. Obviously they will move to much successful Flash.

    2. Re:Netflix by MrEricSir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yup. Would anyone have installed Silverlight if it hadn't been for Netflix?

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    3. Re:Netflix by hedwards · · Score: 2

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

    4. Re:Netflix by nepka · · Score: 2

      Well, Netflix isn't available in my country, but the television stations here use it. So if you want to watch their shows online, you have to install it. It probably comes from the fact it's much harder to download Silverlight streamed videos than Flash ones.

    5. Re:Netflix by bennomatic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They somehow manage to do without it on iOS devices. Perhaps a desktop application is coming for Mac OS/Windows/Linux.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    6. Re:Netflix by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      +1 for you, my friend.

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    7. Re:Netflix by ossuary · · Score: 2

      I think you are right. Netflix and the Olympics were the only two reasons that anyone I know ever installed it.

    8. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

      Flash might be more widely available, but the Silverlight performance is clearly better, so it would be a step in the direction of lower video quality and higher processor and memory utilization.

    9. Re:Netflix by milbournosphere · · Score: 2

      That might be a step in the wrong direction, as Adobe announced that they're ending development for the mobile versions of Flash today. I wouldn't be surprised if the full version eventually follows. I think it'd be smarter for Netflix to latch onto HTML5.

    10. Re:Netflix by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Informative

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

      Much as i don't like flash at least flash sites are accessible from Linux. I have been told that a few Silverlight sites work with moonlight but have not found any myself

    11. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can't just use silverlight - not when they are available on so many platforms that don't support it...

    12. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Does this mean that Netflix will finally work on linux?

    13. Re:Netflix by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I think this would be the best option. I use RDIO, which is kind of like NetFlix for music. You can play music in the browser, but they also have a Native app that runs outside your browser. I think Netflix should do the same. The disadvantage is that you would have to install something on every computer you want to watch movies on. I'm sure people watch stuff at work, or even on a work laptop, but may be unable to install applications. Perhaps they could go the Chrome route and create an application that just installs itself in your local user directory to get around various restrictions for installing stuff. This would probably give the most reliable playback on all platforms.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    14. Re:Netflix by Guspaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except Adobe is clearly moving towards killing off flash. They've announced the death of mobile flash in favour of HTML5, and it seems likely that desktop flash will eventually follow.

      After all, it doesn't really matter to Adobe what runtime is used. They don't make money off people downloading the Flash runtime. They do make money off selling the flash designer software, which costs hundreds of dollars, and the streaming server solutions. What difference does it make if Adobe's software is spitting out stuff that runs in the flash runtime or HTML5?

      My concern is that HTML5 is clearly not up to the level where it has feature parity (or stability/consistency) with Flash or Silverlight. For example, HTML5 currently has no agreed upon standard for dynamic audio. Sure, it can play a sound or music file, but if you want to actually generate or process audio, that's impossible. Mozilla and WebKit both have their own proprietary competing APIs to do this, but neither is final yet, and certainly not a standard.

      Given a few years, HTML5 will probably be able to replace Flash/Silverlight, but clearly not yet!

    15. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes Netflix does use Silverlight. Hopefully moving away from Silverlight will expedite the Linux client I have been patiently waiting for.

    16. Re:Netflix by gorzek · · Score: 1

      Netflix can't do that unless and until there is DRM in HTML5 video. The main reason they stream with Silverlight now is because Silverlight allows encrypted streaming.

    17. Re:Netflix by jgtg32a · · Score: 1

      Actually I think I originally installed it for NBC to watch Lost

    18. Re:Netflix by mkraft · · Score: 1

      Considering Netflix originally moved from Flash to Silverlight, I doubt this.

    19. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Would anyone have installed Silverlight if it hadn't been for Netflix?

      no

    20. Re:Netflix by RulerOf · · Score: 1

      Yup. Would anyone have installed Silverlight if it hadn't been for Netflix?

      At least Silverlight can be kept current with Windows update.

      It drives me insane that a user needs to spend 30 seconds or more, and ONLY after rebooting, to say "Yes, yes, I agree, and I would like to install the flash player update that won't let websites WTFPWN the shit out of my computer. OH you meant 'Download.' Okay, yes, please install. *zip* Yay you're installed, now go away." Whereas it takes less than one second to dismiss the dialog, effectively saying, "Nope, serious security holes are FINE BY ME!"

      It's quite possibly the one thing that Google's automation with Chrome updates has done right: If you want vulnerable, out of date software and want to have upgrading it be something you need to go out of your way to do, it should be more difficult to have your system operate that way.

      People don't care that their software is out of date until AFTER it bites them in the ass.

      --
      Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
    21. Re:Netflix by MrNthDegree · · Score: 2

      There already is, it's called a 3rd-party codec, DRM'ed WMV anyone? ;-)

    22. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Xbox Live uses it to manage your player account.

      That's the largest gaming base in the world.

    23. Re:Netflix by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      So instead of making it obvious that you are running a proprietary plugin, you are just making it a little less blatant.

      It's almost as if this is being driven by people that value appearances over practical considerations.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    24. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't Netflix use Silverlight for streaming? Will Netflix move to some other technology?

      That is what I'm hoping for!

    25. Re:Netflix by Riceballsan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which I have to consider the greatest idiocy ever IMO. Considering you know what is easier to download in the highest possible quality. The darn TV and DVD sources, that are available for download within an hour of the initial airing or DVD release at the latest, a few weeks to a month earlier if there is a leak. I will never understand the compulsion to need DRM and require the release to be weeks after the fact for most services, Why DRM something that already is available unDRMed on every torrent site known to man. Do they still think the main method of piracy is people copying the movies onto floppy-disks and handing them out to friends?

    26. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lost was on ABC, which uses (used?) a Flash-based player.

    27. Re:Netflix by Bucky24 · · Score: 1

      Would be interesting to see Netflix move to HTML5. I don't know if that is even technologically feasible (considering their DRM requirements) but I imagine it would be a big boost for the standard.

      --
      All the world's a CPU, and all the men and women merely AI agents
    28. Re:Netflix by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

      Flash might be more widely available, but the Silverlight performance is clearly better, so it would be a step in the direction of lower video quality and higher processor and memory utilization.

      Wow. That would be about as bad as the VCR market adopting VHS over the vastly superiour quality of Betamax!

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    29. Re:Netflix by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      Yup. Would anyone have installed Silverlight if it hadn't been for Netflix?

      Never interested in Netflix, but to watch some videos on the BBC required it. I may have installed it, once. Can't remember the last time I actually used Silverlight for anything. Adoption was pretty limited.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    30. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will likely happen in the short term is that the Xbox, Wii, PS3, NDS, mobile phones and tablets will switch to HTML5 Video tags with h264 or proprietary 'app' modes. On the desktop they'll just use html5 or release their own Netflix Player.

      If you've ever watched netflix, crunchyroll, or any number of video stream-only sites, they actually send video in blocks (makes it seekable) and the player just seamlessly appends them together. That can be done with HTML5 video tag already, however some modification to HTTP caching is required to make it efficient. Namely the web browser needs to know how big the entire stream as a file is, or if it's a never ending stream. If it's a file, it can pre-allocate ram or disk space and grab the blocks in pieces with separate threads.

      But what would be better, and less expensive for the video distribution is to utilize a torrent client in the player so that everyone watching the same stream eventually has all the blocks, the entire stream is saved to their machines long enough to watch it, and purged when the the block disk cache indicates it's no longer being watched.

    31. Re:Netflix by ynp7 · · Score: 2

      No, the largest "gaming base" in the world would be either a) Facebook or b) Steam.

    32. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope.

    33. Re:Netflix by Abreu · · Score: 2

      Wizards of the Coast use Silverlight to power their Dungeons and Dragons online tools.

      --
      No sig for the moment.
    34. Re:Netflix by vivek7006 · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!

    35. Re:Netflix by tsa · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately our government uses it to stream their TV programs on the Web.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    36. Re:Netflix by peragrin · · Score: 1

      The thing is in order to run flash properly(think windows not linux or OS X) Flash needs direct hardware access at levels above that of say video games.

      This is why flash lite and now flash mobile is so do damn hard to get and each handset has to have it's own port, it is because a simple change like apple going from A4 to A5 processor required a complete rebuild of the software stack.

      It is why flash is only on some android devices. every little processor change was harder to deal with than for the complete OS.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    37. Re:Netflix by oldlurker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

      Flash might be more widely available, but the Silverlight performance is clearly better, so it would be a step in the direction of lower video quality and higher processor and memory utilization.

      Wow. That would be about as bad as the VCR market adopting VHS over the vastly superiour quality of Betamax!

      Pet peeve. VHS did not win as result of marketing, or porn, and Betamax wasn't really a better product. As someone there at the time, the Betamax had somewhat better image quality, yes. Vastly is just going overboard, but partly depending on PAL or NTSC you did see it as somewhat better. But a video recorder that couldn't tape a full movie without you returning home from your dinner to turn the tape before leaving again is not a superior home video technology. And, another reason you would think Slashdot appreciated, VHS won because it was an open standard a myriad of manufactors freely adopted, Betamax wasn't - it was controlled and licensed at significant cost. Because of this obvious stronger consumer appeal, they got the content owners betting on them, including porn.

    38. Re:Netflix by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      They do use it on windows boxes but they have linux clients as well. They seem to use whatever tech suits there needs on the platform.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    39. Re:Netflix by icebraining · · Score: 1

      No, the whole point is that they'd have to move since Silverlight might become obsolete.

    40. Re:Netflix by havardi · · Score: 1

      It can't be worse than running Netflix in a Windows XP VM on a Linux host. That's what I do and it nearly melts my computer.

    41. Re:Netflix by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Apparently there's already a working Chrome plugin for ChromeOS.

      http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/09/netflix-watch-instantly-streaming-now-works-on-chromeos-when-it/

    42. Re:Netflix by exomondo · · Score: 1

      That might be a step in the wrong direction, as Adobe announced that they're ending development for the mobile versions of Flash today.

      And how many mobile versions of silverlight were there?

      I think it'd be smarter for Netflix to latch onto HTML5.

      Which would work if there were a cross-platform DRM solution.

    43. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is funny since Netflix originally used Flash. Quality of videos dropped when they switched to Silverlight.

    44. Re:Netflix by Cid+Highwind · · Score: 2

      There are practical considerations. It means that instead of writing and maintaining an entire programming platform (and making users pay the storage/memory/startup time costs that using it entails) to watch a movie, they're only going to use a video codec.

      There's no ideological considerations, a WMV + WMDRM plugin is just as proprietary and locked-down by itself as when it's bundled inside Silverlight.

      --
      0 1 - just my two bits
    45. Re:Netflix by danceswithtrees · · Score: 1

      The PC/Mac clients for Netflix are such resource hogs-- the fans spin up (loudly) and the laptop gets hot. They must have a more efficient codec they use for iPads because the iPad client can run for hours without heating up at all. Perhaps this would be a good time to improve the energy efficiency of their streaming client.

    46. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The technology you are looking for as a replacement to ActionScript/Flash is Javascript. Learn it, live it, love it.

    47. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silverlight DRM isn't tied to Silverlight; there are implementations of WMDRM & PlayReady (mostly the second specification) across loads of devices including the Roku & various Android phones.

    48. Re:Netflix by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Most browsers do not allow for third-party codecs for HTML5 video. Not even IE9 does that (it specifically whitelists WebM, so it works if you install it; but it won't use any random codec).

      Come to think of it, I'm not even sure there are any browsers that allow it. Desktop Safari, possibly, which relies on QuickTime for video?

    49. Re:Netflix by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      My concern is that HTML5 is clearly not up to the level where it has feature parity (or stability/consistency) with Flash or Silverlight. For example, HTML5 currently has no agreed upon standard for dynamic audio. Sure, it can play a sound or music file, but if you want to actually generate or process audio, that's impossible. Mozilla and WebKit both have their own proprietary competing APIs to do this, but neither is final yet, and certainly not a standard.

      On the other hand, this will spur some more active evolution of HTML5 - now that all the big boys are in this together (I'm specifically referring to IE9, and HTML5 used as an app platform in Win8; Apple and Google were there much earlier), they'll have much more incentive to figure it all out - so it doesn't have to take a few more years, but more like a few more months...

    50. Re:Netflix by rapidreload · · Score: 0

      *raises hand*

      I installed it because, well, why not? Having it installed means if I ever come across a site using Silverlight, I won't have any problems viewing the content. Occasionally I've seen Microsoft videos presented on Ars Technica using Silverlight (since they were embedded straight from Microsoft), and didn't have any problems because the plugin was installed.

      --
      To all newcomers - people here are very close-minded and can't handle complaints about Linux. Keep this in mind.
    51. Re:Netflix by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      In this case that would be a step in the right direction. Flash is much more widely available than Silverlight is at present.

      Much as i don't like flash at least flash sites are accessible from Linux. I have been told that a few Silverlight sites work with moonlight but have not found any myself

      I had heard that too, but the last time I tried Moonlight was a bit too alpha or beta quality, but that extends to most of mono too. It feels like how wine did five years ago.

    52. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Qwikster Technology

    53. Re:Netflix by assassinator42 · · Score: 1

      Flash supports hardware accelerated video, while Silverlight does not (at least not with Netflix). So Flash's performance is better for the one useful things that uses Silverlight. Silverlight 5 is supposed to have hardware accelerated video, but it doesn't work by default. Anyone know of any workarounds?

    54. Re:Netflix by guruevi · · Score: 0

      How about implementing the DRM into a JavaScript container? For DRM to work, you give the keys to whatever device is playing anyway, implementing a simple encryption/decryption scheme in JavaScript shouldn't be too hard.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    55. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't Netflix use Silverlight for streaming? Will Netflix move to some other technology?

      Probably netflix itself is moving to someother business.

    56. Re:Netflix by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Netflix still exists?

    57. Re:Netflix by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      Netflix streams their complete catalogue to "Netflix-enabled TV's", Xbox's, PS3's, etc, etc. They only stream a subset of their catalogue to PC's. They can drop PC support and tell you to buy a console, or a Netfix-enabled TV set. No problem at their end.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    58. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can already imagine Netflix app for Metro and WinRT. HTML5 video with IE10 driven user interface and DRM. Only for Windows 8. They probably don't even have do much re-coding.

    59. Re:Netflix by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Honestly, on a platform that is supported (98 % of all desktops) is the download really easier?

      Though it is a better product (FF and RR working and all).

      No, they don't think that's the most common way, they think they fixed everything with DRM, and nobody casually copies.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    60. Re:Netflix by gfody · · Score: 1
      --

      bite my glorious golden ass.
    61. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow- I haven't ever come across a Silverlight site. I only heard of the superbowl thingy here on Slashdot.

    62. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the 11.2, the automatic updating arrives;
      Increasing the tsunami of software updates;
      No end in sight, no;
      Congested networks without software MAC;
      No end in sight.

    63. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean features like flash's ability to kill SSD drives because it saves even 2 GB streams to disk and reads them at the same time?

    64. Re:Netflix by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It can't be worse than running Netflix in a Windows XP VM on a Linux host. That's what I do and it nearly melts my computer.

      If you're going to run Windows anyway, why not just use a native Windows XP machine for that particular task? Why slow things down by introducing another layer in between?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    65. Re:Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've noticed that when I stream Hulu from the my laptop, I can watch videos longer than when I stream from Netflix, anyone else notice this?

    66. Re:Netflix by hedwards · · Score: 1

      According the the FAQ Netflix isn't supported by Moonlight at this time. And it probably won't be for a while seeing as Moonlight doesn't support the DRM that Netflix uses.

    67. Re:Netflix by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      If that behaviour is killing your SSD, then you've bought an amazingly crappy SSD.

      My first-gen Intel X25-m can do about 1.6 petabytes of writes over its lifespan. If I assume 10 megabit video, and watched streaming Flash video 24/7 (so that it would be constantly writing/erasing the video on the disk), it would take about 40 years to wear out my SSD. And that's assuming I streamed unique content 24/7...

  3. Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Hadlock · · Score: 1

    So where does this leave Netflix, the only company willing to take dirty bribe money to require silverlight for use with their service? Even Hulu doesn't use silverlight.
     
    What about the Olympics? They require(d) silverlight to view any footage, live or recorded.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
    1. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will move to HTML5

    2. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Netflix with no DRM support? I'm sure the studios will love the sound of that.

    3. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by nepka · · Score: 2

      I don't think MS is paying any "bribe money" to Netflix. They only chose Silverlight because it supports better DRM methods than Flash, as of course required by content producers.

    4. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the medium to long term I see no choice. Unless silverlight can support them until a new solution becomes available.

    5. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix made the switch from Flash to Silverlight many years. The performance increase was worth it

    6. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      And silverlight has pretty good bitrate scaling support, I'm not sure if Flash supported that when Netflix was first implementing this stuff.

    7. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Marillion · · Score: 2

      Exactly. This historical blog entry sums it up pretty nicely. http://blog.netflix.com/2008/11/encoding-for-streaming.html
      In order to get the content from the content producers, I presume Netflix had to provide some sort of promise that the streams could not be ripped. Since Silverlight was born in the DRM era, I can only conclude that DRM was a design feature rather than a bolt on. And when the Netflix techies and lawyers got together, Silverlight gave them the most confidence in living up to the UnRippable promise. We on Slashdot will no doubt question the validity of those choices because this is Slashdot, but we were not in the room at the time.

      --
      This is a boring sig
    8. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ... and coincidentally, Reed Hastings (founder and Chairman of the Board of Netflix ) also happens to be on the board of directors of Microsoft.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Hastings

    9. Re:Netflix on Linux natively in 3...2...1... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix runs on the Roku box, that runs on Linux, therefore Netflix already runs on Linux, they just choose not to make it available.

  4. MLB.com in trouble? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This would require major migration for MLB.com which requires silverlight and DRM. Somehow I doubt that they will learn the right lesson though.

    1. Re:MLB.com in trouble? by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope, at least not because of Silverlight. MLB was a Silverlight launch partner but they quickly left the platform and moved to Flash.

  5. This is hardly a shock... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Flash and Silverlight represent the mid-1990s way of doing things with third party browser addons. Back when we needed crutches like these, they were useful. The leg has healed, though, so it's time to throw the crutches under a bus.

    Content producers should just suck up and use non-DRM video streams. They should all know by now that both Flash and Silverlight video "protections" have been circumvented just like Blu-Ray, DVD, etc and that there is really no technological recourse against this.

    1. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Content producers should just suck up and use non-DRM video streams. They should all know by now that both Flash and Silverlight video "protections" have been circumvented just like Blu-Ray, DVD, etc and that there is really no technological recourse against this.

      *** Wakes up, realizes what reallity is like, and starts to gradually loose the smile he brought back from the rabbit hole

    2. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your response shows an ignorance of what Silverlight really is. Silverlight does happen to offer streaming video, but there are many other things that you can do with it that are not possible with other technologies (ok, might be possible in Flash, but it would be a pain). If you need an in browser, line of business application, your options are pretty severely limited, and that is where Silverlight shines. I can sit down and have a pretty nice Silverlight app up and running in a matter of hours. Try that with HTML/JavaScript/CSS. Rumors about the death of Silverlight seem to show up every now and then, and they always seem to wind up as FUD.

    3. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Hatta · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Flash and Silverlight represent the mid-1990s way of doing things with third party browser addons. Back when we needed crutches like these, they were useful. The leg has healed, though, so it's time to throw the crutches under a bus.

      No. We never needed flash to play internet video. If you link to a video directly, it will play in your system's default video player.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:This is hardly a shock... by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      Call it FUD or call it what you will, I haven't seen enough acceptance of Silverlight to get me to switch my development in that direction. It's a shame, really, as that would make my job much easier. So, I stick with ASPX pages (in part because the app is already written there) and I'm becomming better acquainted with javascript to handle some of the feature requests my users have. And for the record here, there is no video in my application.

    5. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Alkonaut · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Flash and Silverlight represent the mid-1990s way of doing things with third party browser addons. Back when we needed crutches like these, they were useful. The leg has healed, though, so it's time to throw the crutches under a bus.

      No. We never needed flash to play internet video. If you link to a video directly, it will play in your system's default video player.

      That's downloading a video file and playing it. That is the same as 1990's video. In 2011 I want to be able to seek in my video file (or watch live streams), I want autmatic adjustment of bitrate depending on my bandwidth, and whoever I'm downloading the video from want's to make sure I pay my subscription to watch this game. There are basically only a few technologies that handle this. And html5 isn't one of them.

    6. Re:This is hardly a shock... by bberens · · Score: 1

      There's still a place for third party browser plugins. This is an issue for several large classes of software like point of sale systems which need to manipulate registers or receipt printers over serial/usb, anything requiring reliable printing, video chat, etc.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    7. Re:This is hardly a shock... by dna_(c)(tm)(r) · · Score: 1

      No. We never needed flash to play internet video. If you link to a video directly, it will play in your system's default video player.

      This kind of wisdom has sadly gone the way of the dodo. The marketing department convinced everybody we need in-lined videos because that's so much better

    8. Re:This is hardly a shock... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The sorry state of navigation in streaming video is the best argument why to avoid it in general. The "streaming" formats really have no advantage here.

      The main problem is making sure that people aren't getting your content for free.

      Nothing else about "streaming" is terribly compelling for anyone.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      The sorry state of navigation in streaming video is the best argument why to avoid it in general. The "streaming" formats really have no advantage here.

      The main problem is making sure that people aren't getting your content for free.

      Nothing else about "streaming" is terribly compelling for anyone.

      Wouldn't the opposite of streaing be downloading and offline watching? That feels awkward. Especially for live events (the main use of SL it seems) where you suggest I download the game after it is finished?

    10. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      No. We never needed flash to play internet video. If you link to a video directly, it will play in your system's default video player.

      This kind of wisdom has sadly gone the way of the dodo. The marketing department convinced everybody we need in-lined videos because that's so much better

      Why would I want to open a video in a separate player? Do you open images on websites in your picture viewer as well?

    11. Re:This is hardly a shock... by icebraining · · Score: 2

      Worked for online music stores, didn't it?

    12. Re:This is hardly a shock... by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      While it's true that Silverlight can do more than streaming video, that is the only thing anyone ever uses it for in the real world.

    13. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you need an in browser, line of business application, your options are pretty severely limited, and that is where Silverlight shines

      I'm struggling to come up with any situation where your scenario makes any sense compared to just developing a straight up "native" client in say, C# or Java or any other non-retarded non-browser method.

    14. Re:This is hardly a shock... by styrotech · · Score: 1

      Why would I want to open a video in a separate player? Do you open images on websites in your picture viewer as well?

      You're comparing apples and oranges.

      Most images on websites are part of a webpages inline content or just irrelevant decoration. You view (or skip over) the images as you read the page in your own time.

      Embedded video not so much. Watching a video is like branching off from reading the page into something else that wants a bit more undivided attention than one or more inline images. If you are already mentally "branching off" for the video, then using a separate app (or browser tab etc) is not as jarring as it would be for viewing inline images.

      You can happily skim over multiple inline images and focus your attention on individual images when you like and for as long as you like. Only the most ADHD addled teenagers would probably enjoy watching multiple videos play at once.

      I don't know about anyone else, but I'll quite often treat embedded videos as links to the video hosting site and watch them from there - usually the experience is better. The hosting site is effectively becoming a separate video player for me, and it leaves the original page able to be read/skimmed/saved for later/closed on its own without being tied to whereabouts I am up to in the video. Or if I decide I don't want to waste bandwidth or time on the video after all, I can close the video tab leaving the original pages content around for reading.

    15. Re:This is hardly a shock... by lgw · · Score: 1

      I'm struggling to come up with any situation where your scenario makes any sense compared to just developing a straight up "native" client in say, C# or Java or any other non-retarded non-browser method

      Take that one step further. Write a native client in C#/Java, then run it using HTML5-based desktop virtualization. Instant browser app.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    16. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't the opposite of streaing be downloading and offline watching? That feels awkward. Especially for live events (the main use of SL it seems) where you suggest I download the game after it is finished?

      Downloading and offline watching is the holy grail for me, with the single exception of live events. I hate streaming movies -- the bitrate is usually low so that it's possible to stream without buffering, frequently you'll get some snag in the network that will involve some pausing of the stream and rebuffering. Especially if you seek to a specific section. Poor quality + buffering + saturation of network so you can't do much else with it at the same time is a deal-breaker for me. That's why I get annoyed with Netflix whenever they try pushing me from my DVD/Blu-Ray plan to do more streaming instead every few months.

      Don't get me started on how the extras that come with DVDs and Blu-Rays aren't usually available for streaming either.

    17. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I want to be able to seek in my video file

      That's up to your client, and whether or not the format has an index which the client can load up-front that tells it what part of the file to request you begin streaming if you wanted to seek to a certain point.

      or watch live streams

      Windows Media Player will play live streams. VLC will play live streams. In fact... what exactly won't play live streams? Sure, it's hard as hell to find a link to a live stream, since everyone insists on using their own flash-based player to stream it.

      I want autmatic adjustment of bitrate depending on my bandwidth

      That would be tricky, but doable.

      and whoever I'm downloading the video from want's to make sure I pay my subscription to watch this game

      Honestly, that's your weakest argument yet.

    18. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      It prevents codec bullshit, or at least minimizes it. That makes it great.

    19. Re:This is hardly a shock... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      You my friend, apparently never installed any Windows before XP. They didn't play embedded video as well (or anything really) and thus relied on Real Player, Flash and QuickTime to be installed, later also DivX. A usable Windows Media format only came to be used about a decade ago and Flash was already established by then.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    20. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      is aut-matic the next step after aut-stic ?

    21. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      So you agree that there is a niche for live streaming of DRM:ed content? Even with streming you could just buffer the whole move or whatever (that is the same as downloading). The important bit is that the user can't be bothered to manage a file or a video player app in 2011. No sir. I think people in the US approach the whole SL debate from another agle, as hey probably met it through Netflix (which I have never used for georaphical reasons). Over here SL is used for most if not all live internet TV services (i.e. the web versions of pay-per-view sports basically). They will never serve anything but streaming content, and they will never use anything that doesn't have good DRM, and of course it will always be streamed as it is live

    22. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      I agree that it isnt exactly the same as images. Still, I don't think you will find a lot of people that miss the days of having to watch videos in a popup real player. Having everything in the browser (separate tab: fine) is probably what people want. And lets not forget, this is mainly a business problem not a technical one. The video needs to be protected, and the video needs to be displayed with the appropriate ads and branding surrounding it

    23. Re:This is hardly a shock... by terjeber · · Score: 1

      1990s? Compared to what? HTML5?

      For LoB applications, HTML and JavaScript is about as bad as, and on some levels worse than, Visual Basic in the early 1990s.

      The most important use for Silverlight is not (as most uneducated /.ers seem to think) to stream video. Who gives a flying f.ck about streaming video? SL is used for in-house and LoB applications. The kinds that run comprise thousands and thousands of different screens (or forms as many call them) and that are updated by small development teams continuously based on industry and regulatory changes. At the moment these apps can be developed as desktop apps (most are) or browser-delivered apps. For the last kind there are only three real alternatives, Flex, SL and Java applets. Of the three, SL is by far the best.

      For those who think HTML and JavaScript is great for this, please show me how to create a MVC or MVVM, fully testable JavaScript application for this. I need to be able to moq my data, to easily change the model to test controllers etc. DI is a requirement. I can get all of this on the server side of things, but if I have 10 000 insurance agents hitting my app 8 hours a day. What does that mean? Each of them are running through "wizard" style apps with perhaps 10-15 "forms". If I maintain state on the server and post back every time something changes on the client, I have a huge performance issue and must scale my server up beyond reason. With an intelligent client app, I can do the same thing with two requests, one GET and a final POST, leaving the client to do all the intermediate state handling. How do I do this in Javascript and HTML5? It is imminently possible, but it is an insane way of doing things. I can not create a fully testable app in Javascript. Anyone ever heard of Dependency Injection? Controller testing? Moq'ing? Please. Javascript is BASIC from 1980s.

    24. Re:This is hardly a shock... by jonhorvath · · Score: 1

      There have been MVC frameworks for HTML/Javascript clients for many years. I've create a few HTML LOB application that have DI, unit testing of controllers and Moq'ing of data.

      http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd394709.aspx

      There is no better satisfaction in deploying a new application version in less than a few minutes at a corporate global enterprise system. The days of loading thousands of client applications are coming to an end.

    25. Re:This is hardly a shock... by terjeber · · Score: 1

      You are absolutely correct, the MVC framework (I use v3, not v2 that you pointed to) is a great framework for developing web apps, as is Play if you want to deploy on something that is not Windows. These frameworks do not solve the "heavy" client problem however.

      Some client applications are computationally intensive or they are data intensive. Imagine for example a "wizard" style interface with 5-7 different paths to go, with typically 4-5 steps in each path. That amounts to a significant number of forms. This creates two problems that may be significant.

      1. There is a significant number of GETs and POSTs going from the browser to the server, even if you use JSON (which I do). This is mostly unneeded traffic used mainly to transfer stateful data between the different forms.
      2. The server has to maintain state for every single user currently using this application.

      For smaller applications and a moderate set of users, this is not an issue. If you have upwards of 10 000 simultaneous users, it becomes a scalability nightmare however. The server not only has to maintain state, either in a volatile session object (RAM usage goes way up) or in a DB (with associated scalability issues), it also has to process and run the decision making process (which form is next depends on the input from the previous form). In other words, you are adding rather significant overhead to the server. There is also the issue then of session management, how do you set up time-out etc?

      If you use a Flex, SL or Java "applet" on the other hand, the server is involved twice, once (or only a few times) serving up the base data. It doesn't have to decide which form to show next based on what was in a POST, the client application does all of that work. The server is only involved at the end when the user presses the "go" button (or similar) with all of the relevant data in one single POST. While the user is using the application, the server is not involved at all.

      There are two distinct advantages to this. One, the server doesn't have to maintain state at all, not even logged-in state (since the Flex/SL/Java application can log back in if it was bumped. There is also another, but more subtle, advantage. We developed a standard web application like this some time back, and after a short while we were told that it was totally non-functional. Why? Because in the old client app (developed in Delphi) the user could go through half the workflow, go for lunch (or go home at the end of the day) and come back later and finish up. With the web-based approach, their session timed out, they had to log back in and they lost all the input. Sure, we managed to code around that, it wasn't even hard, but it added yet another layer of complexity and yet another layer of anti-scalability to our server. With a Flex/SL/Java app, we wouldn't have to worry about it at all.

      Servers should be stateless, but for some LoB applications, particularly ones dealing with matters that are regulated by law or some other government regulations, state is crucial. For such, particularly complex ones, Flex/SL/Java is an infinitely better solution than HTML, 5, 6 or 7.

      You can of course do all of this in JavaScript, but that means, as was my point, that you have to give up DI, MOQ etc. Javascript is great for simple things, but simply not useful for large complex things.

    26. Re:This is hardly a shock... by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      So you agree that there is a niche for live streaming of DRM:ed content

      Oh, absolutely. I just streamed the panels of BlizzCon the other weekend. Worked decently. I'm assuming it's DRMed, though I never bothered to check it for sure.

      Even with streming you could just buffer the whole move or whatever (that is the same as downloading).

      Theoretically, yes, but does any service actually work that way? Hold the entire movie in cache? That has to be a pretty big cache, but then again, movie streams are generally of low quality, even at high bitrate. Plus, I'll settle down for a movie... start the stream, wait for it to download, then watch? Sure, I could start the download the night before, but then I wouldn't be able to watch anything else in the meantime because again, every streaming service I've ever seen discards the stream when you switch to something else. The model where your machine downloads and stores movies ahead of time (like Tivo with live TV) does not seem to be the trend that streaming was going towards.

  6. Good riddance by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The idea that a general-purpose applet platform, with all the attendant security risks, is worth keeping simply to play DRM-encumbered video strikes me as utterly daft. It's like keeping a rabid rottweiler in your kid's playroom so that they'll have something to draw.

    1. Re:Good riddance by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Except that there are some times when you need the DRM. It's an awfully big risk for the content providers to let a subscription service use a DRM-Free format for rentals. For sales, it's not as big of a deal since there are ways of finding pirates, but for those that just download from a legitimate source and capture it to disk. That's a completely different issue.

    2. Re:Good riddance by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are NO times I need DRM. And know what? DRM on VCRs just didn't work; I always copied tapes I rented, as well as Pay Per View.

    3. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that there are some times when people who don't know that all DRM doesn't work feel like they still need the DRM

      T,FTFY

    4. Re:Good riddance by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The idea that a general-purpose applet platform, with all the attendant security risks, is worth keeping simply to play DRM-encumbered video strikes me as utterly daft. It's like keeping a rabid rottweiler in your kid's playroom so that they'll have something to draw.

      Silverlight is not just for video. Nether is Flash.
      Silverlight's DRM can be harnessed by anyone seeking to make (get this!) secure applications.

      When it's something you don't understand, it's an "attendant security risk".
      When it's security that prevents you from stealing shit, it's DRM.

    5. Re:Good riddance by Hatta · · Score: 1

      It's an awfully big risk for the content providers to let a subscription service use a DRM-Free format for rentals.

      What exactly are they risking? Someone who wants a video for free can get it already. The only thing they risk is making their rental service more attractive.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:Good riddance by Pope · · Score: 1

      Macrovision on VHS is hardly digital now, is it.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    7. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Except that there are some times when you need the DRM. It's an awfully big risk for the content providers to let a subscription service use a DRM-Free format for rentals."

      Why bother bother plugging one hole in the content damn when they have a large DVD hole spilling the content out for just about anybody who wants to slurp up a copy of it, I wonder.

    8. Re:Good riddance by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Maybe part of the point is that you shouldn't need a general-purpose applet platform just to create a distribution method for DRMed video? Like maybe you could create a more specialized DRM-video-player plugin that didn't have so many problems and security risks?

    9. Re:Good riddance by denis-The-menace · · Score: 1

      lost or control, real or imagined.
      (BTW: Reality = Imagined)

      And so DMCA/ACTA to the rescue!

      and in 20-30 years PLUG: Personal Listening Unit Grapple
      Hint: it goes in your head.

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    10. Re:Good riddance by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      No, it isn't, but it worked about as well as CSS. Meaning, for a while and then not at all.

    11. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone who wants a video for free can get it already. The only thing they risk is making their rental service more attractive.

      Indeed. We considered signing up to Netflix but... ooops... it won't work on Linux. So no money from us, we just borrow DVDs from the library instead.

    12. Re:Good riddance by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 1

      DId I say it was? I don't have anything against DRM for video rental; in that context I'd even call it sensible. My point is that if (as seems to be the case) the only traction Silverlight has got is in playing video, that niche would be much better served by a smaller and far less general plugin.

      Do you not understand the concept of "attack surface"? Do you not think that a general-purpose platform maybe has a larger one than, say, a dedicated video player? Or are you just trolling, as your tone suggests?

    13. Re:Good riddance by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      Agreed. You get netflix, you use their DVDs, not one of them has DRM that is strong enough to thwart 95% of the free programs out there to copy them and redistribute them online. It's like the content providers are endlessly antagonizing over making sure there are enough bars, doors, security keycards etc... on the front door to the bank, and forgetting the detail that one side of the building doesn't have a wall.

    14. Re:Good riddance by geekoid · · Score: 1

      No. It's DRM because it controls when I can watch it, removes time shifting, locks down content even when the DRM company is ut of business or no longer supported.
      Make backups difficult, and removes consumer choice.

      THAT is why it's DRM. I should be able to record wherever I want and then watch it for my personal used when ever and where ever I want.

      I really ahve no desire to steal anyopnes content, but I will. If I miss an episode of family guy, I'll go look for it and if it isn't available for streaming, I'll find a rip.

      I would perfer it was all online with revenue so the creatirs can get money. I also wish I could pay for the option of getting what every has been on TV without commercials for a fee.

      IN both cases, there is one critical factor: It has to have what I want.

      If the media companies would realized that competing by locking there own content, have there own special place to view the content is costing them money without much of a return. Then maybe they can get together, and create a Common Online TV Repository. Compete with the quality of the shows, not on what is on other channels.

      It's really simple, can be done, doesn't require magic technology and would make them money.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    15. Re:Good riddance by sexconker · · Score: 2

      DId I say it was? I don't have anything against DRM for video rental; in that context I'd even call it sensible. My point is that if (as seems to be the case) the only traction Silverlight has got is in playing video, that niche would be much better served by a smaller and far less general plugin.

      Do you not understand the concept of "attack surface"? Do you not think that a general-purpose platform maybe has a larger one than, say, a dedicated video player? Or are you just trolling, as your tone suggests?

      You referred to video with DRM as being "encumbered", and yet this post now says such a scheme is "sensible". Way to backpedal on that vitriol.
      And Silverlight is used for far, far more than video, just as Flash was. The view of Silverlight that you present is myopic and highlights the fact that you do not understand it.

      "Attack surface"? Making the browser do everything that Silverlight does increases the browser's attack surface just as much as adding the Silverlight plugin does.
      When you have plugins, you can disable them individually, or only use the ones you want. When your entire browser is bloated to include features you don't want or need, then you're fucked. This is the direction modern browsers are going, and it is bad.

      Of course, you are too focused on video to see this, and you're probably already typing your "OMFG You're against HTML5?!" post. Not only is HTML5 far more than <video>, the <video> aspect of HTML5 is mostly good. The spec fails because it doesn't specify a codec, but it works. It doesn't work when you want DRM, but it works. It doesn't present a larger "attack surface" in and of itself because your browser won't be relying on a system codec to do the job (unless you're using MS's plugin that makes FF work with H.264, of course, but hey - we're back to a plugin to make shit work).

      The problem lies with people like you. People who think that plugins are inherently bad because they're slow, insecure, or not available on all platforms. The only valid point of contention is shit not being available on all platforms, but guess what - the people making the content and the people making the plugin cover every platform they care about. If you're not on that list, either buy a device to get on that list or just deal with it - you probably didn't want that content anyway. Performance and security are not intrinsic to the plugin model - any browser with the same capabilities would have the same amount of shit to deal with in those departments.

    16. Re:Good riddance by sexconker · · Score: 1

      No. It's DRM because it controls when I can watch it, removes time shifting, locks down content even when the DRM company is ut of business or no longer supported.
      Make backups difficult, and removes consumer choice.

      THAT is why it's DRM. I should be able to record wherever I want and then watch it for my personal used when ever and where ever I want.

      I really ahve no desire to steal anyopnes content, but I will. If I miss an episode of family guy, I'll go look for it and if it isn't available for streaming, I'll find a rip.

      I would perfer it was all online with revenue so the creatirs can get money. I also wish I could pay for the option of getting what every has been on TV without commercials for a fee.

      IN both cases, there is one critical factor: It has to have what I want.

      If the media companies would realized that competing by locking there own content, have there own special place to view the content is costing them money without much of a return. Then maybe they can get together, and create a Common Online TV Repository. Compete with the quality of the shows, not on what is on other channels.

      It's really simple, can be done, doesn't require magic technology and would make them money.

      You disagree with the security model. That does not mean it is not a security model.
      It is doing exactly what it was intended to do - prevent you from copying shit, time shifting, skipping ads, watching in certain countries, or accessing content when certain parties have died off.

      The fact that it's a shitty security model for the consumer doesn't mean it's not a security model.

    17. Re:Good riddance by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 0

      You referred to video with DRM as being "encumbered", and yet this post now says such a scheme is "sensible". Way to backpedal on that vitriol

      What on earth are you wittering about? DRMed video *is* encumbered. Occasionally that encumbrance is justifiable. My beef with DRM is that you don't own the things you "buy". With rentals there's no pretence that you're buying anything, hence no problem. What's your point?

      And Silverlight is used for far, far more than video, just as Flash was.

      *Could* be used for more, sure. *Is* used for more - no, not for anything significant.

      The view of Silverlight that you present is myopic and highlights the fact that you do not understand it.

      The view that you present suggests that you've sunk a fair amount of time and effort into something that was clearly a pointless, dead-end technology from the start, and you're really really REALLY pissed off about it. I might sympathize if you weren't being quite so obnoxious.

      Making the browser do everything that Silverlight does increases the browser's attack surface just as much as adding the Silverlight plugin does.

      I see absolutely no need to make the browser do everything that Silverlight does. I don't object to plugins in absolute terms. I object to one honking huge plugin that sets itself up as a platform-within-a-platform.

      The rest of your post seems to be arguing against the voices in your head, so I'll leave it there.

    18. Re:Good riddance by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Maybe part of the point is that you shouldn't need a general-purpose applet platform just to create a distribution method for DRMed video? Like maybe you could create a more specialized DRM-video-player plugin that didn't have so many problems and security risks?

      I think part of the problem is Flash Video needed Flash. It shouldn't be hard to make a video player, but Flash Video developed within the world of Flash, which could do far more than just playing videos.

    19. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Silverlight were only for playing video, I would agree. However, playing video is just a tiny fraction of what Silverlight is capable of. I've written full Silverlight apps (>100K lines of code) that never did any video streaming and had nothing to do with digital media.

    20. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silverlight's DRM can be harnessed by anyone seeking to make (get this!) secure applications.

      Unlike, say, Java. Oh wait, not unlike Java.

    21. Re:Good riddance by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I think part of the problem is Flash Video needed Flash.

      This is vague, and I suspect it misses the point. "Flash Video" is some fairly standard codecs (h263, h264, On2's vp6) being streamed through some streaming protocols (RTMP), played on a player that has been developed in Flash. The player could theoretically be developed in some development environment other than Flash, and as long as it supports the right codecs and protocols and DRM, it would still work. Adobe could make a browser plugin that is a pared down version of Flash, just enough to play those movies. The whole thing could probably be simplified even further, given that most video now is being distributed in h264, which OSX and Windows support with built-in codecs.

      Meanwhile Adobe has been pushing Flash to be an entire application framework. When you have all the capabilities of a full application framework, including possible access to user files and hardware, you're necessarily opening some security holes, even if they're exploiting social engineering.

      So Hortensia Patel's point, as far as I could tell, was that if we're really just keeping Flash around for DRMed video playback, then there should be an easier/safer way to achieve that. The metaphor was "It's like keeping a rabid rottweiler in your kid's playroom so that they'll have something to draw." Sure, a rabid rottweiler may serve as "something to draw", but there should be safer options that could serve just as well.

    22. Re:Good riddance by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      > Maybe part of the point is that you shouldn't need a general-purpose applet
      > platform just to create a distribution method for DRMed video? Like maybe you
      > could create a more specialized DRM-video-player plugin that didn't have so
      > many problems and security risks?
      =====
      Maybe part of the point is that you shouldn't need a general-purpose platform just to create a distribution method for DRMed video? Like maybe you could create a more specialized DRM-video-player that didn't have so many problems and security risks?
      =====

      There, fixed it for ya. Netflix currently streams its entire catalogue to Netflix-enabled TV's, Xbox's, PS3's, etc, etc. It streams only a part of its catalogue to PC's. Worst-case scenario, they drop support for PC's entirely, and keep streaming to game consoles and TV sets. Problem? What problem?

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    23. Re:Good riddance by sjames · · Score: 1

      They do it all the time. They have their movies broadcast over the air with no DRM. They send it over cable with no DRM. Since HDCP is broken, DRM can be bypassed completely on any home setup that can view the digital content in the first place. Macrovision on VCRs and DVDs NEVER actually worked. We've been able to rip DVDs for years now. Somehow, the industry didn't dry up and blow away as they assured us it would back in the '80s (IIRC) when they sued over VCRs.

      With all of that, they post record profits year after year. BT might have slowed them down a bit, but not so much that they don't STILL post record profits.

      THEY don't need DRM at all. They're not really taking much risk by doing without since they've never actually had effective DRM for very long. *I* most certainly do not need DRM EVER. I see no reason why any hardware I own should do anyone's bidding but mine.

    24. Re:Good riddance by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What exactly are they risking? Someone who wants a video for free can get it already.

      They can get a letter from their ISP about copyright violation, too. If you can save the stream then you're getting it from a legitimate source and not raising any flags, plus you're using the service's bandwidth to get it, when they want you to go spend $30 on a Blu-Ray and use the highway's bandwidth.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    25. Re:Good riddance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please do. After reading your drivel it's apparent that you're a dumb fuck.

    26. Re:Good riddance by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      actually, macrovision never worked. The problem is, macrovision required subversion of your hardware. All you needed was a VCR that predated macrovision and you could copy tapes just fine. Which, when macrovision was first introduced, was the vast majority of devices in use. By the time non-macrovision devices were becoming less common it was common knowledge (and trivial) to strip out macrovision. Because macrovision is, effectively, a signal that tells the device to scramble audio/video. But the audio/video are just fine. Your subverted device does the scrambling -- no macrovision signal, no scrambling.

      CSS, on the other hand, slightly delayed playback of dvds on linux.

      As to netflix's DRM -- I don't think anyone really cares. One poster says he sees numerous requests on the board he frequents -- but the reality is people obtain broadcast (for current tv show episodes), dvd or bluray sourced video for their watching needs. And Avatar (the tv show, not the movie) had a dvd leak toward the end of the third season that contained unaired episodes -- which was before any dvds of the season were commercially available. Netflix's drm is really pretty meaningless. People that care to just download the shows and movies, who cares about cracking netflix drm when you have other options with better quality?

  7. Articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where did articles go?

    Did anyone else have trouble reading the summary due to the lack of articles such as "the" and "a" and the mixture of tenses?

    I know, I know. Don't be a grammar nazi. But isn't language something the editors should clean up before posting?

    1. Re:Articles by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      Maybe we can run away to Grammar Argentina before the Grammar Nuremberg Trials completely wipe away the last vestiges of quality control in the English language.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    2. Re:Articles by hedwards · · Score: 1

      You must be new here, nobody RTFA on slashdot.

  8. MS Training Treadmill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So glad I'm off it! ... now to go learn HTML + javascript.

    Oh, wait! I already did that.

  9. No new versions released after Silverlight 5. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe they think it's perfect?

  10. Microsoft's HTML5 Player Framework by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coincidentally, Microsoft released the first version of their HTML5 Player Framework today:
    http://playerframework.codeplex.com/

    1. Re:Microsoft's HTML5 Player Framework by masternerdguy · · Score: 1

      Microsoft and open source? What's the catch?

      --
      To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
  11. What about Video?? by bradgoodman · · Score: 2, Interesting
    With the decline of these client-side frameworks, where is that going to leave video??

    ...and don't say "HTML5" - because that doesn't define just about ANYTHING.

    First there was Flash video over RTMP, then there was Adobe HTTP Dynamic streaming (HDS). Both of these were ADAPTIVE streaming technologies, and extremely popular an widley used. Moreso RTMP, but HDS is starting to gain adoption.

    HTML-5 does not provide any method for any kind of adaptive bitrate, or fragmented video delivery. It is strictly PROGRESSIVE download - i.e. download the whole file, and play it. There are a billion problems with this. No adaptive bitrate (downgrade video quality if you cannot meet the sustained bitrate), and difficulty in caching (caching one giant file very difficult for a reactive, real-time cache, as opposed to caching smalller HDS or HLS "fragments"). The only other really "competitor" would be Apples HTTP Live Streaming (HLS) - which is the standard for iOS devices, and starting to gain adoption on Set-Top Box-devices, but pretty invisible on the desktop space.

    So...my question is... "What about video!?"

    1. Re:What about Video?? by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      This is more a problem with lazy encode jobs, than with the presentation software.

      Flash video encoding forces the provider to reencode the video in a streamable media format. Prior to this, people were using terrible "live stream" type streaming media servers, like real audio or microsoft media servers.

      This is an issue simply because of the following things:

      1) at the time those were popular, the major industry push was akin to "live broadcast tv, but on the internet!" Not, "video on demand"

      2) memory and processing power were much more limited, limiting how efficiently you could effectively stream a feed.

      3) people simply didn't encode to perfectly capable streamable containers. Even old-school MPEG1 has features for streamed playback. The reason was because of shitty bandwidth, (mpeg1 has not so good compression at low bitrates), weak cpu power (just see what an h264 stream does on even a pentium2, let alone what was available in the pre-flash-video days.), and minimal ram, as outlined above. While streaming was "possible", it wasn't practical.

      What flash video did, was enable the flash plugin to buffer a canned feed, so that even if your connection sucked balls, it could fill the buffer sufficiently to enable high quality playback while the file was still downloading. In addirion, flash was an ubiquitous format already used to make animations and adverts, and was browser agnostic (browser wars, et al.). This is what made flash video an instant success.

      These days, we don't need a plugin to serve as a media cache. A properly implemented html5 video playback system would do this all by itself. The very point of making it part of the w3c standard is to make it browser agnostic, and we have the cpu, memory, and bandwidth capabilities to use more traditionally encoded streamable file types.

      There is no real downside to dumping flash video, other than losing the programatic features that flash or silverlight provide. Then again, if you aren't an advertiser or a webgames developer, and just want to deliver video content on demand, this still isn't a problem.

    2. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, technically HTML does allow for streaming, if you do it right.
      But it is a case of manual buffering in to an allocation table (array) and essentially playing through that data.

      So, split data in to set chunks of data (possibly even with information about varying bitrates or whatever)
      XHR first chunk of data
      Set parameters based on the header information (length of media, title, etc.)
      Setup the timeline, if visible.
      Start Loop
      Fetch next chunk of data
      Add to array and update timeline on load.
      Assign array[position] to the source for the video
      Continue until the end is reached, or it is terminated.
      Optionally check for errors and automatically fix it, unlike the more popular sites who don't give a damn it seems. (seriously, what the hell is with Youtube recently? There has been about 50 errors out the ass with everything ever since that new crappy player was introduced, eternal loading, no loading, errors just at random, it is terrible, embarrassing even.)

      That is just a very simple example, too lazy to write the code out, but you get the idea.
      An automatic way would be nice, a sort of default, but I'd still never use it.
      Manual is best IMO, you can customize it to your exact needs.

    3. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTML-5 does not provide any method for any kind of adaptive bitrate, or fragmented video delivery.

      You're free to implement it yourself using a combination of server-side programming and client-side javascript.

    4. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But does the w3c really have an interest in adding the required bits (to compete with SL/Flash) to html? Apart from adaptive bitrate and fragmented delivery, some form of drm api would also be required to seriously remove the need for plugin video.

    5. Re:What about Video?? by randallman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sorry. You're just wrong about the progressive download thing. And it's not in the scope of HTML5 to define bitrate or fragmented delivery. Fragmented delivery is turf for HTTP and bitrate is for the browser or embedded player.

      Read:

      14.35.2 Range Retrieval Requests

      HTTP retrieval requests using conditional or unconditional GET methods MAY request one or more sub-ranges of the entity, instead of the entire entity, using the Range request header, which applies to the entity returned as the result of the request:

                  Range = "Range" ":" ranges-specifier

      Please read the HTTP 1.1 RFC

      http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html

    6. Re:What about Video?? by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      HTML-5 does not provide any method for any kind of adaptive bitrate, or fragmented video delivery.

      You're free to implement it yourself using a combination of server-side programming and client-side javascript.

      You cleverly removed the bit about DRM from the quote of the parent post. So when I implement my client side part, to be able to have the drm bits I'll probably make it native rather than js. That also means it is now a plugin. Oh wait I can see what ms did here...

    7. Re:What about Video?? by bradgoodman · · Score: 1
      Exactly. Flash (and sliverlight, to a far lesser extent) was the standard "Embedded Player" for advanced video. Without it, we need to have customized embedded players for Firefox, and IE and Safari Opera, running on my Windows PC, and my Mac, and under Linux, and on my Blackberry, and iPhone, Windows Phone, and my Wii, and Xbox, and my DVD player, and embedded in my TV, etc. Who's going to write embedded players for ALL those - and make it so they actually get embeddded in ALL those. Adobe did this with flash. Without this, how can I make my web video work with ALL these devices. Don't think PC/Desktop - think about our multi-device world.

      And as for HTTP byte-range requests, they don't work. First off, they're not cacheable. (Check the RFC). So it doesn't matter that you have a nice big fat fibre pipe running to your house, your provider has no way of optimizing bandwidth on the narrower, more expensive upstream connection they have to their providers.

      Adobe, Apple and Microsoft have all converged on the same way to handle all this - adaptive bitrate streaming. They each do the EXACT SAME THING, in three (relatively) slightly different ways. They all worked through years of MMS, RTSP, Progressive HTTP, RTMP and a billion others to all unamimously arrive at the same conclusion. Microsoft and Adobe are abandoning this - the state of the industry will be in peril.

    8. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're utterly wrong. There is no requirement for a progressive download at all when using the HTTP protocol. Only an idiot media player loads an entire media file before playing it.

      The HTTP protocol, the mechanism currently used for transferring HTML 5 content, contains a feature called 'byte ranges'.

      Sensible playback software, such as VLC, already uses HTTP byte ranges to handle skipping. It may initially request the entire file, but when skipping (or otherwise needed), it will break that stream, and request any chunk of the media file, using byte ranges. (Basically a continuous slice of the original file. Works for all file formats.) At least Apache is quite happy with this. Try it out yourself if you do not believe me. (I first successfully tried this almost a decade ago, so it is nothing new either.)

      Byte ranges are not terribly precise with variable bit rate media, and it does require sane file formats that lets a client easily locate the start of an audio or video frame in a random position in the stream, and that each audio and video frame contains a sequence ID or timestamp identifying the frame, so that the player can re-synchronise. It seems to work well for e.g. MPEG 4 variants. I don't think it works for some/most braindead Windows-only file formats.

      However, byte ranges are simple to implement, and leave it up to the playback client to decide how it wishes to consume the media.

      As to the bitrate negotiation, the only issue is to let the playback client know about alternate bitrates, and let it choose. There is no reason to push autonegotiation to the server. Just provide four to six different bitrate versions of the media. As long as the playback client is clever enough, it can dynamically switch between different bitrates. The URLs to the other bitrates could be provided in the HTML 5 code, as extra attributes, if the clients agree to support it.

      (One thing that would help here is if we could eliminate certain browsers that fail to notify the server properly, when they wish to break the current connection. And the server should detect that as soon as possible, so that it does not try to push unwanted packets consuming bandwidth needlessly, when the client wishes to skip or switch to a different bitrate. None of this however requires any support in the HTTP or HTML standards, only that both browser and server developers agree that doing this well is a worthwhile thing.)

      As soon as we get other clients that are as sane as VLC with regards to HTTP streaming, we can see if the standards need anything else to better support it. I don't think we need anything. Maybe HTML5 could use an extra attribute to describe other bitrate versions of the same media file (that is to be played), and perhaps an attribute for the byte range of the keyframe index, if available, to enable a client to do exact byte range reads and skips.

    9. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Torrents are working just fine for me. The quality tends to be better and I can download now and watch them later on my own terms.

    10. Re:What about Video?? by fozzy1015 · · Score: 1

      Just because Adobe and Microsoft are abandoning the Flash and Silverlight run time environments doesn't necessarily mean they're also abandoning their respective Dynamic Streaming and Smooth Streaming protocols. Being HTTP based I'd think it'd be a natural fit for an HTML5 video player in a browser to use these protocols.

    11. Re:What about Video?? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      You gave the answer yourself, HLS is an open standard and already widely used in the next gen internet access devices (you really think everyone's staying on Windows-based desktops?), it also works on Mac's and in Windows with the Safari browser and both Firefox and Chrome should probably implement it.

      There is no need to develop yet another patent encumbered closed standard (like RTSP or MS'es IIS streaming protocol)

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    12. Re:What about Video?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IE10 + Silver^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h Metro + WinRT provide an environment and codecs to support any protocol desired with all the of the fancy DRM only Windows can provide. I see others have commented this already...

    13. Re:What about Video?? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      The perception that It is strictly PROGRESSIVE download - i.e. download the whole file, and play it (though I wouldn't call that progressive) probably comes from the fact that when people try to do it themselves without deep understanding of how video streaming works, they use single pass transcoders that lump all the metadata at the end of the file. The metadata needs to be at the start of the file if you want it to stream as it downloads.

    14. Re:What about Video?? by kikito · · Score: 1

      What does youtube use?

      Use that.

  12. Can you back up this claim? by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 5, Informative

    Flash and Silverlight represent the mid-1990s way of doing things with third party browser addons. Back when we needed crutches like these, they were useful. The leg has healed, though, so it's time to throw the crutches under a bus.

    Content producers should just suck up and use non-DRM video streams. They should all know by now that both Flash and Silverlight video "protections" have been circumvented just like Blu-Ray, DVD, etc and that there is really no technological recourse against this.

    Really? Do tell how exactly those Silverlight protections have been circumvented. Unless you are talking about a streaming media recorder which simply records the stream as it plays on your PC, I am not aware of any way to defeat Silverlight DRM. The use of separate protected streams for audio and video is fiendishly clever and I've never heard of a successful way to crack it. A video forum where I regularly participate gets posts all the time asking how to record Netflix streams and nobody has ever suggested anything but a streaming media recorder.

    1. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The streaming recorder works though, doesn't it? It's the "rubber hose" principle applied to Big Media - encrypt it all you want, but if you can see/hear it, you can copy it.

    2. Re:Can you back up this claim? by nepka · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's exactly my experience about Silverlight DRM too. I looked up about it after wanting to take a few segments of video that was streamed via Silverlight, but it seemed impossible to do.

    3. Re:Can you back up this claim? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      The problem is that your copy is now somewhere around 1.1 Gbps.
      Oh, you're recompressing it? Enjoy the additional quality loss.
      Lossless recompression will still result in an unwieldy, gargantuan size.

    4. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      I doubt sufficient motivation exists to crack it. You can get higher quality from DVD (or especially Blu-Ray) rips off TPB for anyone so inclined, leaving the only people who want to record Silverlight those people who don't know / don't want to use BitTorrent. Most of those people aren't the sort to know how to crack it. And with only Netflix using it, there really just doesn't seem to be a point.

      So maybe no one has circumvented it, but probably just for lack of trying. Witness how fast the much-vaunted PS3 was hacked after removing OtherOS support. And as you say, streaming media recorders always work. DRM simply does not work.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    5. Re:Can you back up this claim? by purpledinoz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because it hasn't been cracked, it doesn't mean it's not crackable. At some point, the video must be decrypted and displayed to the user. Therefore, 100% bullet proof copy protection is impossible. The only way they can make DRM 100% full proof, is to encrypt it and throw away the key. At which point, you'll be watching random noise and listening to static.

    6. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Alkonaut · · Score: 2

      I doubt sufficient motivation exists to crack it. You can get higher quality from DVD (or especially Blu-Ray) rips off TPB for anyone so inclined, leaving the only people who want to record Silverlight those people who don't know / don't want to use BitTorrent. Most of those people aren't the sort to know how to crack it. And with only Netflix using it, there really just doesn't seem to be a point.

      So maybe no one has circumvented it, but probably just for lack of trying. Witness how fast the much-vaunted PS3 was hacked after removing OtherOS support. And as you say, streaming media recorders always work. DRM simply does not work.

      I watch silverlight drm:ed streams everyday. For live sports. Since it is live, the argument about dvd:s and download of course doesn't work.

    7. Re:Can you back up this claim? by bmo · · Score: 1

      >Oh, you're recompressing it? Enjoy the additional quality loss.

      Who cares? Honestly, only OCDers care about whether pirated media is 100 percent identical. It only really has to be "good enough" for the vast majority of people. Look at how popular aXXo one-cd movies still are in the trackers.

      --
      BMO

    8. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      Hey fucknut, nobody with a life cares about watching recorded "live" sports.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    9. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

      What does watching silverlight streams on a regular basis prove towards a lack of motivation to crack it? The quality is comparable and you are already subscribed, so you have no motivation to do so. Hulu has horrible level of DRM right?, how many taken from hulu streams are on TPB, answer few to none, why? because by the time anyone copies it off of hulu, someone has already recorded the live airing of the show and it is already well seeded, why bother, that would be like cracking an empty safe, sure someone can do it but nobody's going to invest any time or energy into it. Live shows... well obviously once it is pirated and uploaded it would no longer be live, and the pre-recorded airing from TV in the state it broadcasted is equally good.

    10. Re:Can you back up this claim? by geekoid · · Score: 2

      You can have the strongest steel door, with the best locks in the world and it doesn't matter if I can get in through the window.

      IN fact, no one will bother trying to get through the door, sine the window would be easier. And thats true if the door just as the appearance of being a heavily locked steel door.

      Meaning, it so easy to get around, no one bothers to crack it.

      or maybe it's magic, who knows.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    11. Re:Can you back up this claim? by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Oh, you're recompressing it? Enjoy the additional quality loss.

      These days, the codecs are good enough that if you use the same one at the same bit rate, it will result in almost no loss of quality, as the first compression removed all the "hard to compress" parts.

    12. Re:Can you back up this claim? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      But would people whoa re watching live sport bother to crack it? I ahve no idea what they think they are protecting with live sports.

      Anyways, just divert the stream to a secondary buffer after decoding and you have gotten around

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    13. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does cracking the DRM help for live sports? No one will be re-streaming it.

    14. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless you are talking about a streaming media recorder which simply records the stream as it plays on your PC, I am not aware of any way to defeat Silverlight DRM.

      Well, we've identified one way. Any need to continue?

    15. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there really great demand to record Netflix videos? The quality is quite poor, and Netflix's selection isn't very good. Between Bluray, DVD, TV caps, and iTunes videos (which uses DRM that can be broken), what does Netflix offer that can't be obtained from another source in higher quality from a variety of legal/quasi-legal/illegal sources?

    16. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      Of course I am assuming the value of the content is zero once the game is over. So offline cracking/uploading etc. is not relevant for live streams. Of course there is a motivation for cracking the drm also for live streams, as long as you can redistribute the cracked streams live.

    17. Re:Can you back up this claim? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Oh, you're recompressing it? Enjoy the additional quality loss.

      These days, the codecs are good enough that if you use the same one at the same bit rate, it will result in almost no loss of quality, as the first compression removed all the "hard to compress" parts.

      Absolutely incorrect.
      The first encode failed at the "hard to compress part", and introduced all sorts of noise.
      The second encode will try to retain that noise and will fail, and will introduce additional noise.

    18. Re:Can you back up this claim? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      It only really has to be "good enough" for the vast majority of people.

      Wait, people watch shows for the story and acting?

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    19. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Pseudonym+Authority · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of people are fine with paying $30/month or whatever Netflix charges so they can whimsically watch whatever they want on demand rather than searching for a good torrent, waiting 30 minutes for it to download (with a good swarm), then watching it.

    20. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 1

      However, as you can see from the popularity of Netflix streaming where the original compression quality ranges from awful to only marginally watchable, nobody much cares about quality.

    21. Re:Can you back up this claim? by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      There just hasn't been the motivation to do so.  See PS3 multi-OS booting.  But with bittorrent still going strong, there is simply no point to ripping crappy Netflix streams.

      I mean...why would you want to?

      If it's running on a PC, it can be captured, one way or another.

    22. Re:Can you back up this claim? by maugle · · Score: 1

      If I was concerned with quality loss, I wouldn't be streaming it in the first place. I'd get the DVD and rip it.

    23. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like MTV

    24. Re:Can you back up this claim? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      However, as you can see from the popularity of Netflix streaming where the original compression quality ranges from awful to only marginally watchable, nobody much cares about quality.

      Those people are the common pigs - they'll eat anything you put in front of them, and they have HDTVs connected through a fucking VCR's RF converter.
      Netflix quality is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo fucking bad.

    25. Re:Can you back up this claim? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... At which point, you'll be watching random noise and listening to static.

      That pretty much sums up what I am watching now :)

  13. No they possibly cant. by unity100 · · Score: 1, Informative

    "... wank wank, yank yank, this that, rant rant, piss piss " -> This is the reaction we get EVERYtime we tell that microsoft will probably kill this or that service/product that they think they are not benefiting from enough. not 4 months ago when it was almost evident that they would drop silverlight, zygotes here were flaming us when we suggested that, citing this or that reason. 'silverlight is used widenly in *insert niche application here*', 'it has a strong community' this that. what happened ?

    there has been numerous news regarding how they were wavering about .net, and when those articles appeared here, the same people lambasted anyone suggesting that microsoft may ditch .net people too, even while .net users were in a stampede in their own forums over questions over future of .net.

    microsoft is a private company with american corporate morals. they will not hesitate from ditching all of you when they see it fit. 'they' here means whichever product/technology manager at that time is dominating the policy. and it varies.

    1. Re:No they possibly cant. by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      I see more than that.

      MS is terrified of the IPhone and missing out on tablets and sub netbooks. This is a decision by Bill Gates himself according to Ars Technica as he was called to evaluate the MS Courier Tablet to what the software group was doing with METRO to mimick IOS. Not from some lowly manager.

      The first hurdle is that IE 7 sucks goatballs when the decision was made and IE 8 was still in development. HTML 5 was in the IPAD and being included rapidly by Google in webkit for Chrome and ANdriod mobile. Steve Jobs went as far as banning flash so the web can move forward.

      MS saw the web as competitive again and also afraid the desktop browsing experience as being behind as a cheap $399 tablet can offer a much better browsing experience with html 5 and hardware acceleration, while the $999 desktop had crappy IE 8 with no hardware acceleration and mediocre html 4.

      IE 9 is the first good IE since 2001 (IE 6 was great at the time), and IE 10 will be very competitive with Opera, Chrome, and FF and the focus is on html 5 in METRO mode. It will be the default renderer for their phones, tablets, and netbooks.

      HTML 5 is a real shift and not a blow in the wind for MS to remain competitive and silverlight is desktop oriented anyway and not where MS wants to be where Google and Apple could eat them from the ground up. .NET is here to stay and even part of METRO development as a language to put all the AJAX and HTML 5 goodness in. Silverlight will stay for legacy and MS does have the right to remain competitive and I do not understand this fear of change. Slashdotters were once the drive of change and it is bizaare to see this.

      This strategy is good even if you do not use Windows at all as it will give webmasters a go ahead to use HTML 5 which will benefit everyone.

    2. Re:No they possibly cant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you are saying the previous rumours are now confirmed by more rumours? Great logic you got there chief.

    3. Re:No they possibly cant. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      zygotes

      errr...you sure you know what that word means?

      there has been numerous news regarding how they were wavering about .net, and when those articles appeared here, the same people lambasted anyone suggesting that microsoft may ditch .net people too, even while .net users were in a stampede in their own forums over questions over future of .net.

      Who were these same people? Or are you just trying to create some sensationalism?
      The doubt over silverlight came about because MS excluded it from their new platform announcement, so fair enough, that's evidence they could kill Silverlight. However the doubt over .Net was completely and utterly baseless and unfounded...I mean seriously give me one good indicator that MS would drop .Net, there's no evidence to support that theory yet strong evidence to the contrary. So again, who are these specific people that were flaming you over silverlight and .net?

    4. Re:No they possibly cant. by lgw · · Score: 1

      the same people lambasted anyone suggesting that microsoft may ditch .net people too, even while .net users were in a stampede in their own forums over questions over future of .net.

      .NET is a marketing brand, covering about 50 distinct technologies, so talking about "ditching .NET" is actual nonsense. As relates to internet stuff, ASP.NET is deader than a vampire standing on the Sun, and TFA points out that MS is still talking up XAML. In other spheres, what HTML5 would have to do with C#, or an older version of Office, is anyone's guess.

      Also, it's just not that hard to operate the shift key. I recommend 15 minutes of pinkey excercises 3 times a week until it stops hurting.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:No they possibly cant. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      there has been numerous news regarding how they were wavering about .net, and when those articles appeared here, the same people lambasted anyone suggesting that microsoft may ditch .net people too, even while .net users were in a stampede in their own forums over questions over future of .net.

      The reason why people lambasted those that suggested such things is that because the suggestions were based off rumors which proved to be completely unfounded after the Win8 developer conference (BUILD). If you recall, the original story was that "Win8 apps will be HTML5/JS only". That, in turn, was due to rumors that were triggered by summer demo of Win8 where Sinofsky showed off a bunch of Metro-style tiled apps, and boasted that "all of them are written in HTML5".

      The reality was demonstrated in BUILD - specifically, that XAML/.NET is a fully supported platform for Metro apps alongside HTML/JS and XAML/C++. That's also where the future of Silverlight became clear already - the news was that Silverlight was not what you'd have to use to write apps for Win8, but the replacement framework is, essentially, Silverlight under a new name (and with C++ bindings).

    6. Re:No they possibly cant. by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      MS doesn't have obscene amounts of money to throw at everything any more so they'll have to focus on profitable products and technologies. I think that'll primarily mean their core business of Windows+browser+Office. Everything else will be measured by profitability.

    7. Re:No they possibly cant. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Silverlight isn't going anywhere. It might be renamed, but the technology is basically just a subset of WPF (not a true subset, there is some stuff that's silverlight only). It makes little sense to ditch silverlight and keep wpf, since 90% of silverlight comes from WPF.

      Silverlight is dead, long live Silverlight.

    8. Re:No they possibly cant. by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has been making tablets for more than 10 years. They're not "missing out" on them. If you specifically mean "tablet style, touch based mobile devices" then that's a different story.

      Your timeline is a bit skewed as well. IE8 was released in 2009, IE7 in 2007. The iPad was released in April of 2010. Nearly a year after IE8 was released.

      Hell, the first version of chrome to support any HTML5 was nearly 6 months AFTER IE8 was released.

      So please, spare us the "Microsoft was scared of HTML5 and the ipad when they were developing IE8" crap, because the iPad didn't exist, and HTML5, though the first draft was published in 2008 didn't really gain any momentum until late 2009, early 2010.

  14. Wrong question by mangobrain · · Score: 1

    Will content providers be able to give out their material without DRM? Yes, in the sense that it's possible. Will they be *willing*? Probably not. Will we see all sorts of harebrained, browser-breaking hacks implemented to try and bring DRM to JavaScript and HTML video? Almost certainly.

    1. Re:Wrong question by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Will they abandon browser based streaming and just start writing closed source apps that gives them a greater degree of control than ever before? Probably.

    2. Re:Wrong question by mangobrain · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... that would be quite ironic: making it possible to implement these applications in browsers with non-proprietary, cross-platform technologies, may be the very thing that drives vendors to ditch the lot and use proprietary, platform-specific solutions. Being cross-platform & proprietary is better than platform-specific & proprietary.

  15. Yeah... by T-Mckenney · · Score: 1

    The Internet Says... This was kind of DOA anyway..cheap flash knockoff riding the .NET wave? no. .NET needs to stay where its at, and flash (and plugins like this in general, need to just DIE).

  16. more promising? by farble1670 · · Score: 1

    With Adobe ending development of Flash for mobile browsers and Microsoft ending development of Silverlight, HTML5 video looks a lot more promising.

    no it doesn't. it looks exactly as promising as it was before. the only difference is that there's now less competition driving innovation in that direction. the death of competition is never a good thing.

    1. Re:more promising? by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      But this isn't the dead of competition. HTML 5 doesn't provide a video codec, it provides an HTML tag that allows for multiple forms of video to be placed in. H.264, WebM, Theora - the competition is still there, but two of the big lock-in bullies (MS, Adobe) are bowing out. All Flash and Silverlight did for video was provide a way of getting it to the browser that is no longer necessary. Is it a bad thing that the wagon-wheel market doesn't have much competition anymore?

      Personally, I'm pulling for WebM. It's free, open source, and under the BSD license. The lack of competition is a good thing when the only thing used is free and open source (b/c if you want to change it, you can). I would argue that FOS drives innovation more than competition (just look at all the Linux desktops - almost everything that's been added to Mac OS X or Windows in the last decade showed up on some linux desktop first). I'd love to see MPEG LA disappear forever. We don't need their 'competition.'

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    2. Re:more promising? by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      All Flash and Silverlight did for video was provide a way of getting it to the browser that is no longer necessary

      not a developer eh?

      flash and silverlight are much more than portals for video. they are development platforms. as for flash, the dev + design tools available for HTML 5 are no where near what flash has today, and the video players for HTML 5 are no where near as robust.

      HTML tag

      right, and have you seen how that renders?

    3. Re:more promising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Flash and silverlight are much more than portals for video. they are development platforms.

      That's cute and all, but only Flash and Silverlight developers use that stuff.
      Flash is just for Youtube, and Silverlight is just for Netflix.
      Users don't do anything else with them.

    4. Re:more promising? by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      I understand that Flash/Silverlight can also make annoying ads, poorly constructed websites that would be much better serviced by AJAX, and crappy games the world can do without; but the quote you were commenting on is specifically about video. The death of competition is a good thing when you're competing to see who can make the bigger turd sandwich. Point being: video was the only thing Flash was good for and now it's not needed.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    5. Re:more promising? by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      I had to check, but it turns out that newgrounds actually still exists. There's a third thing for the users.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    6. Re:more promising? by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I understand that Flash/Silverlight can also make annoying ads, poorly constructed websites that would be much better serviced by AJAX, and crappy games the world can do without

      either HTML5 can replace flash, or it can't. if it can, then it can be used to create annoying ads and poorly designed websites as well. the people that are writing your sh*t-sandwich websites using flash can surely write them with HTML5.

      or, maybe there is something in the spec that actually *prevents* it being used to present ads and animations to the user. oh wait, there isn't.
      maybe it inherently disallows poor website design. nope, it doesn't.

  17. That's because... by wjsteele · · Score: 2

    From what I understand, Silverlight functionallity is being rolled into WinRT. With Windows 8, WinRT takes care of the exact same things that WPF and Silverlight did and brings to the table the inclusion of HTML5/Javascript.

    No functionallity will be lost with this and it's not much of a transition for developers either, as their code is directly portable to WinRT.

    Bill

    --
    It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
    1. Re:That's because... by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2

      It's not all quite as simple.

      First of all, functionality is lost in a sense that Silverlight is a browser plugin, whereas Win8 apps run out of browser. People use in-browser apps for intranet to enable "seamless updating" - that does not apply here.

      Second, Silverlight is a portable browser plugin - it also runs on OS X. Win8 apps, obviously, only run on Win8.

      Finally, Silverlight code can be easy to port, but it can also be hard depending on what dependencies it has. Easiest case is when you just have to rename a bunch of namespaces in your "using" statements - that's all well and good. It gets trickier if you depend on some .NET libraries that use features not available in .NET 4.5 Core Profile that is used for Win8, such as runtime code generation via System.Reflection.Emit (Expression.Compile is still there).

      Generally speaking, WP7 Silverlight apps are a breeze to port, whereas ones written for browser/desktop can be trickier.

    2. Re:That's because... by richlv · · Score: 1

      From what I understand, Silverlight... same things that WTF...

      sorry, you probably wanted to provide useful and insightful information. but i got this :)

      --
      Rich
    3. Re:That's because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. Basically WinRT is a scaled up Silverlight or a highly sandboxed .Net with different UI base types - take your pick of perspective. XAML + CLR based apps with an environment for micro - apps based in HTML5 + JS replacing the current Windows gadget system (which if you didnt know is HTML + JS as well). The c++ framework is for applications (read: Office) that have heavy investments in c++ native codebases that is uneconomical to port or inpractical for a specific technical reason.

  18. World of Goo by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2

    So will World of Goo run under HTML 5?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  19. Mono by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Making the loss of Mono even less significant.
    http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/11/08/215243/banshee-mono-may-be-dropped-from-ubuntu-default

  20. Re:.NET is next. by halivar · · Score: 2

    Given the market penetration of .NET as opposed to Silverlight, I think this is utter nonsense. And now that Oracle is screwing the pooch vis-à-vis Java, you can expect more .NET, not less.

  21. No. Once again, no. by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

    This is a misconception from people who believe silverlight is a flash competitor, and a flash competitor only. Silverlight will continue to work as a browser plugin, but its focus will probably shift from "all things RIA" to streaming video. It is already obvious that there is a niche for subscription video (a lot of paid for video content has alread switched from flash/wmp to silverlight). Apart from streaming video, I can't see microsoft putting much weight behind silverlight as the solution for RIA on the web. For that, html5 is much more useful (which Adobe has discovered as well). As for the technology in Silverlight (i.e. .xaml etc.) that has already evolved into the platform for WP7 development, and future windows platforms.

  22. Wait? There is STILL DRM out there? by erroneus · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I thought DRM was already a thing of the past. Who is still doing that?

  23. Is it Christmas? by WiiVault · · Score: 1

    The death of mobile Flash, and the rumor of the same for Silverlight all in one day? The web is going to be a far better place in the future.

    1. Re:Is it Christmas? by tunapez · · Score: 1

      Sounds almost too good to be true... can't help wondering what the next incantation/bastardization will take their place.

      --
      Imagination drew in bold strokes, instantly serving hopes and fears, while knowledge advanced by slow increments...
  24. DRM and HTML5 by sohmc · · Score: 2

    This may be a bit off-topic, so I apologize. I know that content publishers nag and nag about losing revenue so they punish the people who actually pay for the privilege.

    I wonder how much piracy would happen if publishers just trusted their users and released videos without horrible amounts of DRM. (My biggest pet peeve is not being able to just play a Blu Ray disc but having to sit through at least 15 minutes of ads.)

    While I know some bad eggs would copy the file, isn't it being done regardless? So my question is DRM the only thing keeping HTML5 from really taking off?

    --
    We don't live in Shouldland.
    1. Re:DRM and HTML5 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Content publishers have never reconciled themselves to the software business model.

      Software publishers thrive in an environment of high piracy rates. Make no mistake, they hate it, and fight it, but ultimately it's a cost of doing business.

      Music producers, movie producers, they think they can continue to control the distribution model. Just like back in the 20's when the movie studios owned vast chains of theatres to show the pictures they made. Ultimately they do not accept that their content can be encoded as files, and a file is a general purpose concept that can be copied. Computers revolve around the entire concept that bits can be copied.

      Realistically, there is maybe 10-20% additional revenue to be made by imposing DRM schemes on the customers. Nashville, Hollywood and all the rest are determined to implement those DRM systems and wring out that marginal extra revenue. Even though it mostly inconveniences legitimate customers and does not long stop the biggest, most sophisticated pirates.

      Just my opinion, but I've felt this way for a long time, and see no reason to change my opinion.

    2. Re:DRM and HTML5 by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      I wonder how much piracy would happen if publishers just trusted their users and released videos without horrible amounts of DRM

      Almost certainly it would be no more nor less than what happens now. Anyone who wants to get bootlegged video content can do so very easily. DVD-ripping programs have been readily available for about a decade now, and everyone knows how to use Bittorrent. Putting DRM on streaming is silly; that horse left the barn long ago.

    3. Re:DRM and HTML5 by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      >not being able to just play a Blu Ray disc but having to sit through at least 15 minutes of ads
      Just torrent it. You have a paid version so you're not even pirating anything.

    4. Re:DRM and HTML5 by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      you are not "pirating" it, but when you use a torrent you *are* inherently re-distributing it to others without a license to do so. Whether or not you care about that doesn't bother me, I'm just responding to your implication that it is legal to torrent if you have a paid version. It is still illegal, it isn't the obtaining nearly so much as the re-distribution.

    5. Re:DRM and HTML5 by wreakyhavoc · · Score: 1

      You're not redistributing if you're "leeching", i.e disallowing upload bandwidth. Or am I incorrect?

  25. netflix by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    Last I heard, Netflix streaming uses Silverlight, despite the completely lack (at the time) of support on any platform other than Winders. (Now there's Moonlight, but I suppose that will go away as well.)

    So, I'm wondering what Netflix will switch to, and if anyone over there feels the slightest bit of embarrassment.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  26. WTF... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    is Sliverlight?

    1. Re:WTF... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoever modded the above down is a microshaft apologist cockgobbler with no sense of humor and no imagination.

  27. Re:Wait? There is STILL DRM out there? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every major for profit content producer.

  28. From a technology point of view by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    From a technology point of view Silverlight is by far better than anything else that can be used to program the Web. Its lack of Linux and portable support is what made it unsuccessful.

  29. JavaFX? by Fender+Gibson · · Score: 1

    What do you think this means for JavaFX, recently revised by Oracle? Wasted effort?

  30. I wish either Microsoft or Adobe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    would open up the source to their players instead of killing off their products. It's no secret that Flash's performance is better than HTML5's (with the exception of video) and a lot of what Flash does is just being reinvented with HTML5. Why not just open source the player and have the browsers implement "flash engines". OR you could use the technology in the players to improve HTML5 Element/JavaScript performance.

    A man can dream eh?

  31. Slashdot.... by icongorilla · · Score: 1

    being the great Open Source News source you are, it would be great if you included some information on how the moonlight team is taking this. Who knows, maybe Netflix will move to moonlight.

    --
    The thought of hanging myself at my student loan organization doesn't bug me as much when I think it might make a differ
  32. Just please kill old IE first by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    HTML 5 is not going to happen with IE 8 gaining marketshare if anything from corporations who are terrified to update their browsers and 30% of the population who does not know what a browser is who uses what comes on their computer.

    If MS is serious about HTML 5 this issue must be addressed as IE 9 is barely making inroads at all and IE 8 is still growing.

    With Windows 8 going to flop unless MS does something to save the desktop portion in it, you can bet history will repeat itself in the 2010's being known as the decade of Win7 and IE 8.Very similiar to the 2000s as the decade of XP/IE 6. If MS includes IE 10 by default with win 7 sp 2 OEM or a enterprise edition there is hope we can abandon flash and silverlight and switch to HTML 5.

    Until IE 8, 7, 6 get below 10% usage silverlight and flash are here to stay and HTML 5 is out expect for mobile devices for a long long time.

    Personally, I think in 5 years I will do web browsing from my phone as it will be much more advanced with 3D, fonts with effects, animations, and video as the desktop web will be years behind unless the situation changes.

    1. Re:Just please kill old IE first by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      With Windows 8 going to flop unless MS does something to save the desktop portion in it, you can bet history will repeat itself in the 2010's being known as the decade of Win7 and IE 8

      Windows 7 supports IE9 just fine. All that the corporate IT admin has to do is approve the update on WSUS. The real problem is that a lot of companies are stuck on XP for now; many of them will be there through 2014 when extended support ends, and some of them will continue muddling on even past then. XP doesn't support IE9, so these users will be stuck on IE8 forever until the computers die or the CIO finally bites the bullet and orders the upgrade. (Or until they decide to use Firefox or Chrome, but that is unlikely - IE isn't the best browser, but it does have the best Active Directory integration, which is extremely important to businesses.)

      On the other hand, these are work computers, so the lack of support for flashy animations may not matter.

  33. dutch public TV internet services by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Dutch public TV offers some services to show content over the internet build on MS Silverlight, e.g. the possibility to view missed broadcast.
    Until recently no easy alternative was available, so users on Linux had to do with the moonlight implementation which is/was way behind. For some time the service allows one to view the content also with Flash. Looks like they knew already that the single vendor implementation posed some risks. Hope that the dual implementation has paved the way for HTML5. Though I've little hope that these services will be implemented without the burden of proprietary codex's and DRM.

  34. The wheel by toxickitty · · Score: 1

    Thank god it's gone I get SO SICK of people reinventing the wheel.

    1. Re:The wheel by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Goodyear and Firestone must piss you off.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:The wheel by toxickitty · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure they're just copying it not reinventing it.

    3. Re:The wheel by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Goodyear and Firestone must piss you off.

      That's more an implementation than an invention!

  35. HTML5 is one of them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In 2011 I want to be able to seek in my video file (or watch live streams), I want autmatic adjustment of bitrate depending on my bandwidth, and whoever I'm downloading the video from want's to make sure I pay my subscription to watch this game. There are basically only a few technologies that handle this.

    And HTML5 is one of them: HTTP Live Streaming.

    1. Re:HTML5 is one of them. by Alkonaut · · Score: 1

      In 2011 I want to be able to seek in my video file (or watch live streams), I want autmatic adjustment of bitrate depending on my bandwidth, and whoever I'm downloading the video from want's to make sure I pay my subscription to watch this game. There are basically only a few technologies that handle this.

      And HTML5 is one of them: HTTP Live Streaming.

      I know and MS implementation (IIS media) is one implementation of this. Of course the one that is actually used isn't the http live streaming but the silverlight client smooth streaming which adds the drm capability. Video delivery without drm just won't be interesting for those who sell content. Not anytime soon. If http live streaming just added drm capability then we wouldn't need silverlight smooth streaming.

    2. Re:HTML5 is one of them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a bit of a catch-22; DRM by its nature needs secrets, and HTML5 is by its nature open and implementable by anyone.

      The post-Flash future will likely be DRM-'required' services like Netflix move towards their own custom, controlled app. They've already moved this way with iOS and Android.

  36. Re:.NET is next. by masternerdguy · · Score: 1

    Do you have any idea how many applications, from business tools to video games, depend on the .NET framework?

    --
    To offset political mods, replace Flamebait with Insightful.
  37. Killing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds more like they are letting it die a natural death rather than killing it.

  38. Native Apps by Kamiza+Ikioi · · Score: 2

    They have an app for Android and iOS phones, no reason they wouldn't make a Windows or OSX app if they really wanted to.

    --
    I8-D
  39. That would be weird by sangreal66 · · Score: 2

    Since Silverlight is coming to the Xbox in a big way within the next few weeks. I suppose they could transition that to a different platform, but I don't think the large number of content providers they lined up for this release would be thrilled.

    1. Re:That would be weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Highly unlikely. It runs on Xbox and is the core of Windows Phone 7.

      Not to mention, there are things you can do in Silverlight that you can't do nicely in HTML/JS. A perfect example is a multiple individual file uploads. (i.e. a photo sharing site that shows thumbnails as you upload the photos). In native HTML/JS, you need to do a full post back to upload a file. Some jQuery plugins get around this by creating an iFrame on the fly and injecting form data into the iFrame but it's a complete hack. You will also run into problems chunking up large files that are being uploaded.

      Another good reason to use Silverlight (and probably Flash) is that you know it's interpreted correctly because the owner of the platform writes all the software to interpret your compiled code. On the flip side, with HTML/JS/CSS, the browser decided how to render it and you run into all sorts of problems between browser compatibility.

      Web technology is broken in my opinion. Native is the way to go. At least Silveright is one step in the right direction. If the browers could all agree on standards, thats fine too... but that will never happen.

    2. Re:That would be weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since Silverlight is coming to the Xbox in a big way within the next few weeks. I suppose they could transition that to a different platform, but I don't think the large number of content providers they lined up for this release would be thrilled.

      Yeah it's less dying as been repurposed to where it made more sense: embedded systems and mobile devices. Call it something else but it's still he same framework sources just targeting a specific HW platform. I'm not going to ebate pros and cons of said runtime environment- that's for another thread but the days of flash and sl apps on the web is ending.

    3. Re:That would be weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Despite all of the nonsense being spewed here regarding video, few have clearly worked with Silverlight enough to understand all that it encompasses or that it represents the most stunning of Microsoft's achievements, whether they're stupid enough to kill it or not. But that the Silverlight runtime's coming to the XBox has been talked about for over a year and despite prior suggestions that it'd be announced at MIX11, that never happened.

      Please provide additional details, including links, supporting this assertion - is it somehow being tied to the upcoming release of Silverlight 5, for example?

    4. Re:That would be weird by sangreal66 · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Silverlight 5, but Lakeview (Silverlight for the Xbox 360) is part of next Xbox update, for which they've already launched a public preview program. You can find plenty of details on it online, including the leaked technical documents (API references, overview, etc).

    5. Re:That would be weird by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever, dude. Plugins evolved because a need for them existed. Some have run off, all giddy at the prospect of a Web that no longer needs them, but the HTML5 zealots have yet to prove that's the case. Web standardization is an awful lot like the European Union - everyone loved the idea, the utopians among us were quick to proclaim that a golden new era had arrived upon its formation. Where is it now? Coming apart at the seams and no more successful than the UN, because each of the involved parties has too much invested in their own agenda. Whether it was over money or failing to adequately provide for a common defense, the EU was doomed from the beginning. Web standardization is no different - 99% of that on the web was crap prior to plugins and the same will be true without them - dull, lifeless crap right out of a Khafka story. Some will be content spending their days fiddling with JavaScript and finding themselves still fighting browser incompatibility, but those of us unwilling to accept this catering to the lowest common denominator will simply go native. But you have fun reinventing the wheel...

  40. Silverlight is great for OOB Business apps by danparker276 · · Score: 2

    There is so many things HTML 5 can't do like print. Silverlight out of browser applications are great because they are very easy to update. I guess people will just download apps instead of going to websites then.

    1. Re:Silverlight is great for OOB Business apps by Mondor · · Score: 1

      There is so many things HTML 5 can't do like print. Silverlight out of browser applications are great because they are very easy to update.
      I guess people will just download apps instead of going to websites then.

      Indeed. Although the future of Silverlight is uncertain and I wouldn't define it as something you definitely should learn as windows web developer, I still consider writing OOB applications using it and don't think they are in danger next 5 years or so.

    2. Re:Silverlight is great for OOB Business apps by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. People don't understand Silvelight. Sure, it can be used for media and has been.

      Now Silvelight is primarily for LoB (line of business) apps. i.e. enterprise applications.

      The reason for this is they don't give much of a shit about pretty apps and they don't care about "locking in" to Silverlight.

      If you can, you should develop in Silverlight. The tooling and integration support make HTML5 with Web Assembly Language (aka javascript) look like the pieces of shit they are. Good god, why would you spend 6 hours micromanaging some shitty open source Javascript control when you can just let the framework do it? I'll poke my fucking eye out if I have to develop large applications in HTML5. It's the same shit people did in 1995, and it's lame.

      Personally I hope Microsoft does some cool Silverlight->HTML5 mapping shit, so you can develop in Silverlight but have it map to HTML5.

  41. HTML5 RIA APIs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where are the RIA client APIs that take advantage of HTML5?

    The #1 tool of any app developer that doesn't want to waste time is a solid foundation to build on.

    In the desktop arena, you have a plethora of API choices depending on your platform and needs -- and those choices are all viable. In the web space, you have a plethora of incomplete, poorly implemented and dying JavaScript choices (Dojo, JQuery, YUI, GWT, etc.), and the most successful are not yet HTML5 ready (mostly because HTML5 isn't even a finished spec yet!). Add to that that HTML5 won't be ready and available on the majority of browsers for many years to come and there's a problem brewing for RIA development on the web just as it was getting going.

    Flex and Silverlight have their problems -- but they are a lot more developer friendly than the junk that is currently available for HTML5.

    1. Re:HTML5 RIA APIs by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 1

      Amen brother. That's what people don't get. Nobody sane wants to implement shit in these low level tools. We need something like Silverlight but which runs in HTML5, some kind of framework.

      I know a lot of neckbeards like writing <this... asd=ad asd=asd> and <that...> but I don't. I want nice control with easy to use bindings, a good event model, a language designed after 1995 to develop business logic in, etc...

  42. Character Builder by TheMiddleRoad · · Score: 2

    Yes, and it sucks eggs. Most importantly, I can't access it from my Android phone.

  43. Re:Wait? There is STILL DRM out there? by westlake · · Score: 2

    I thought DRM was already a thing of the past. Who is still doing that?

    Netflix, for one.

    Move over, Web surfing. Netflix movies now take up more of the Internet pipes going into North American homes.

    A study published Tuesday by Sandvine Inc. shows that Netflix movies and TV shows account for nearly 30 percent of traffic into homes during peak evening hours, compared with less than 17 percent for Web browsing.

    Only about a quarter of homes with broadband subscribe to Netflix, but watching movies and TV shows online takes up a lot of bandwidth compared with Web surfing, email and practically every other Internet activity except file sharing and videoconferencing.

    As late as last year, both Web surfing and peer-to-peer file sharing â" mainly the illegal trading of copyrighted movies â" were each larger than Netflix's traffic.

    Netflix's Internet traffic overtakes Web surfing [May 17]

    Barnes & Noble made a big deal out of its brand-new Nook Tablet's compatibility with Netflix and Pandora at its recent unveiling, apparently giving Amazon a bit of a complex. Amazon did its best to one-up the Nook in today's release, rolling out the laundry list of Fire-friendly apps that will be available on day one, including "Netflix, Rhapsody, Pandora, Twitter, Comics by comiXology, Facebook, The Weather Channel and popular games from Zynga, EA, Gameloft, PopCap and Rovio."

    Amazon now says "several thousand" Android apps will be available through the Amazon Appstore for Kindle Fire, considerably less than the hundreds of thousands of apps currently populating the Android Market. Of course, this could be a good thing, as much of what's offered there is pure garbage.

    Kindle Fire: Yep, it'll have Netflix, Pandora, and more

  44. HTML 5 alone is not the new Flash/Silverlight by AaronLS · · Score: 1

    It seems the power of HTML 5 is just some new tags for multimedia and the browser support for them. It is just a markup language. When I read articles/tutorials on HTML 5, I don't see how a markup language comes anywhere close to Silverlight or Flash/Flex in terms of a rich set of libraries and language features to support interactive applications. Javascript comes no where close to touching either of these technologies IMO, and it is sad to hear the both are potentially on the way out. Additional reasons why HTML 5 alone is not the new Flash/Silverlight can be found among answers here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2172626/how-can-html5-replace-flash

    I am sure someone will fill the void left by these products, perhaps something new that leverages HTML 5 for display/graphics but has something more substantial than javascript. Probably in the interim we will see libraries like javascript trying to fill the void, but its still javascript at the heart.

    1. Re:HTML 5 alone is not the new Flash/Silverlight by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      What kind of language features do you need to "support interactive applications"?

    2. Re:HTML 5 alone is not the new Flash/Silverlight by olau · · Score: 1

      Well, Javascript is actually the language that's supposed to do the interactive stuff, that's why it was introduced in the first place. Note that the new tags come with a Javascript API for manipulating them. As I gather, Flash is based on a Javascript dialect to a certain extent.

      If you actually bother looking around, I think you'll find there are lots of Javascript libraries out there these days for doing animations and widgets and all that sort of stuff. And many of them are actually quite elegant because the competition on the web is fierce.

      It's true that there's not the all-encompassing huge class library, but you know what - some people actually think that's an improvement over the old toolkit line of thinking with a gazillion of classes that it can take many years to actually get to know. HTML is simpler. Sometimes less is more.

      As a web app developer, the biggest problem IMHO for the web, aside for missing support for some things as mentioned by grandparent, is that the DOM is still not über responsive (usually the problem is not slow Javascript, but slow DOM updates). But the browser makers have started working on that through hardware acceleration.

  45. hooters.com by Lagerhowen · · Score: 1

    and I thought only www.hooters.com only used Silverlight ... what a pain

  46. Getting ahead of ourselves by Threni · · Score: 1

    "With Adobe ending development of Flash for mobile browsers and Microsoft ending development of Silverlight"

    Where's citation for the latter? You can't turn a rumour into a premise. Not without looking like a bit of an eejit, anyway.

  47. Why no DRM with <video> tag? by DdJ · · Score: 1

    Help me figure this out: is there something about the <video> tag that makes DRM not work? Because if there is, I cannot see it.

    You put in the video tag and you list sources. Let's for example assume I've got a FnordPlay protected MPEG-4 video file that I'm entitled to view. Everything I can see leads me to believe that if I put that file on my own web server, and put an HTML5 page with a video tag there next to it, I'd have a web page that I could navigate to and see the content, but which others would navigate to and couldn't see the content, unless they authenticated with FnordPlay with my credentials first (and then they could).

    I see absolutely nothing that would interfere with that in the spec.

  48. Miguel de Icaza by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What will Miguel de Icaza do for a job now?

    1. Re:Miguel de Icaza by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      Mmmm, Mono died long before Silverlight did.

  49. Why Silverlight Is Important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't do web programming. I'm an old applications guy, and I've been writing code since 1984. I've done assembler, C, C++, C#, Pascal, VB, Objective C, and dabbled in all kinds of technologies, languages, and API's. I loathe web programming (no offense to the web guys out there). Can anyone explain to me how to accomplish the following with HTML5 and make a convert out of me?

    I have 10 developers working on 3 related .NET applications. We share libraries across all 3 apps to get good object/code reuse. We started writing business logic behind web services last year and sharing objects between our client code and our server code by compiling our shared libraries for either client or server deployment. We have now added a 4th 'application' which is a 'rich web client' application using Silverlight, and a very large percentage of our code is nicely reusable. We can invoke our web services from our Silverlight client using the same libraries and data objects we developed for our desktop applications (compiled for Silverlight). Even better, we keep Silverlight sandboxed so the client runs identically regardless of browser, and even works just fine on Mac.

    I simply don't see how I can achieve this level of code reuse, cross-platform compatibility, and browser consistency with HTML5. I have nothing against the technology, but we aren't developing mildly interactive web pages here... We are building full-on rich client apps with Silverlight, and sharing a crazy amount of code with our business logic, and desktop apps. Converting to HTML5 seems, well, retarded for our needs.

    How will HTML5 make me faster or more efficient? How will it improve my end user experience? How will it help me reuse code and leverage my investment in my existing codebase? How can I 'rapid-app develop' my way through UI elements like treeviews, and grids, and RTF controls, etc.? Either I am way out of touch with what HTML5 can actually do, or Microsoft is on crack.

    I don't give a fig about Metro, and neither do my clients. We've already decided IF we need to go down the mobile / tablet road that we will develop (1) for iOS and (2) investigate a limited feature HTML solution. But these are way down on the priority list. HTML5 simply doesn't offer me anything helpful, and quite the opposite, will probably make my life a living hell trying to work around the technology.

    1. Re:Why Silverlight Is Important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't you know, no one wants to build any UI more complex than a message board for the interwebs! Look at HTML5! You have a canvas you can doodle on -- that's some amazing tech right there!

      Why would anyone want to build something boring like a BIA app when we can keep cranking out more myspace clones!

    2. Re:Why Silverlight Is Important by JDG1980 · · Score: 1

      Why does your application need to run in a browser at all? Wouldn't it make more sense just to use standard .NET, compile it as an exe, and push it out to your users?

    3. Re:Why Silverlight Is Important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have never dealt with a corporate IT departments. New versions make me want to shoot myself in the face.

    4. Re:Why Silverlight Is Important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (1) Its easier for my clients to simply 'log in' (2) We can update/patch things for everyone at our convenience (3) It gives me access to Mac users (4) I can 'rent' my software (Software As A Service) (5) some IT departments are somewhat draconian about user install privileges. (6) the software is accessible from their desktop, notebook, home computer, anywhere they need it... (7) the software is collaborative by design, so a 'web' feel is a natural, etc... etc... etc...

      Many of these are decisions we addressed due to the peculiar nature of our industry / clients / business model. But those are our decisions to make. If we are right, we make lots of money. If we are wrong, we go out of business. But it's really hard to plan and commit to a strategy when Microschmucks yank the carpet out from under you every so often because they don't understand squat about your business or clients, but like to be 'on the buzzword bandwagon'...

      One size does not fit all, and for what I do, I chose Silverlight because it fit perfectly. HTML5 was dismissed as a disaster for what we need. Now I get it rammed down my throat? grrr....

  50. Re:.NET is next. by exomondo · · Score: 1

    Just wait and see. I'm betting that .NET will be so cumbersome and buggy in regards to integration in Windows 8 that it will be the next one in the chopping block

    Why would it be cumbersome and buggy in Windows 8? What do you think would be used as the alternative to .Net?

  51. Re:General Problem with Developing on Microsoft by zyzko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I honestly can't see this as a big problem on Microsoft - they have quite a long track record of supporting their tools - even legacy Visual Basic skills can be used today quite effortlessly. Yes, they have had their misses and some tools or even languages (J++ comes to mind from the old days...) have been deprecated quite quickly after a blistering start but take a look around - there are frameworks and languages coming and going everywhere. If you want to bet safely learn C and C++ and code your own supporting libraries. Yes, it sucks when vendors pull plug on technology. But the days of learning Fortran or Visual Basic once and expecting to have guaranteed job for the rest of your life are over (well, if you are a true Fortran or VB genius you can get a nice paying job in maintenance these days...), And the same applies to OSS as well - they are not immune. Projects and languages come and go - yes, in the support side they are at an advantage because if you are a true guru you can dive into the source and support the platform - but I don't see the platform support as a huge issue on Microsoft side either. With right DLLs you can still run Win32 VB applications just fine - yes, the vendor doesn't support those anymore and doesn't develop new features but you still got what you have when you chose the platform.

    Can you give examples of Open Source projects (in programming) which Microsoft has tried to emulate and has ended up with barely working and sucking copy?

    Silverlight on web had really no big and bright future, it was just a poke on Adobe to steal marketshare on (DRM) video delivery. But those skills learned there are not totally wasted, it is not *that* hard to transform from one Microsoft architecture to another. But if your big bet was Silverlight on browsers (cross-platform/browser) then well, you are out of luck but it did not require a genius to figure that out from the start.

  52. Re:.NET is next. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

    I'm betting that .NET will be so cumbersome and buggy in regards to integration in Windows 8 that it will be the next one in the chopping block

    Windows 8 Developer Preview is available for two months now, and showcases how .NET integrates with Windows 8. As a user, you won't know the difference. As a developer, it's probably the most convenient of three available stacks, largely because it has language-level support for asynchronous programming (and Win8 APIs are very async-heavy to force developers to write non-blocking code for smoother UI) - in both C++ and JS, you have to manually chain callbacks. Think the difference between Node.js, and Twisted Python w/yield.

    If you have any comments on the actual state of said integration - i.e. if you've seen the dev preview - how about getting more specific? If you haven't, then why even bother posting?

  53. Silverlight is now everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Microsoft might no longer develop Silverlight for the web, but Silverlight programming model is what is behind the Windows Phone, Windows 8 Metro & Other platforms, so in other words it won't die, it is actually going to outlive most of us

  54. HTML5 video does not loook "more promising" by Chas · · Score: 1

    With Adobe ending development of Flash for mobile browsers and Microsoft ending development of Silverlight, HTML5 video looks a lot more promising.

    Actually, HTML5 looks to be the only option left because the competitors are committing hara-kiri. That doesn't mean it's "more promising".

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  55. Silverlight = XAML + CLR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It appears that many people think of Silverlight as something unique (or just another video streaming client), when in fact Silverlight is really just an in-browser container for XAML (for UI) combined with the .NET CLR (C#, VB, libraries). Interestingly, this is very similar to some other Microsoft technologies:

    Silverlight = XAML + CLR
    WPF = XAML + CLR
    Windows 8 Metro = XAML + CLR
    Windows Phone = XAML + CLR

    There are, of course, some differences in each case (as well as alternatives for each platform), but the fact the Silverlight may go away doesn't mean any of the underlying technologies are going away (or the effort to learn them was wasted), it just means that XAML + CLR won't be available as a browser plug-in (and for developers that wish to make an app that can be distributed/launched from the web without installing, XBAP works very well).

    The beauty of Silverlight has always been that it didn't require learning a whole new language, libraries, UI architecture, etc. (in fact, you could share common source files between your client code and your server code). If you know WPF, you know 99% of Silverlight.

    You'll notice that none of that has anything to do with video streaming. Anyone who has done serious application development in Silverlight knows that streaming video is an infinitesimal part of Silverlight. Similarly, anyone who thinks HTML + JavaScript is even remotely as capable as XAML + CLR has no idea what Silverlight really brings to the table.

  56. Re:Wait? There is STILL DRM out there? by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    I thought DRM was already a thing of the past. Who is still doing that?

    Anything having to do with major movie studios.
    Not 100% sure about TV shows, but I think it's the same.
    The music companies have mostly given up on DRM, but no one else did.

  57. give me a break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft is not killing Silverlight. Even if Silverlight 5 is the last release, it is not even released yet. There is full Silverlight support in 'normal mode' Windows 8 and it is still leagues above HTML/JS in terms of LOB app development productivity. The new Metro application layer is basically Silverlight, you can make a few namespace changes and run Silverlight apps in Metro, and this XAML/C# development style will likely be the preferred way to develop for Windows 8, which isn't even out yet.

  58. Microsoft never sticks with anything by kbg · · Score: 0

    I would have thought people should have realized by now that Microsoft never sticks with anything and you should never rely your business on anything that is dependent on support from Microsoft . The list is endless: Zune, PlayForSure, Visual J++, DDE, Visual Basic, WinG, Sidewinder, DirectInput e.t.c. Your best bet is to only use core functions in Windows and some development environment not made by Microsoft.

    1. Re:Microsoft never sticks with anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

  59. Re:General Problem with Developing on Microsoft by dnwheeler · · Score: 1

    In this case, I have to disagree. There's only a very small part of Silverlight that is unique to it. Most of Silverlight (>99%?) is applicable to WPF, Windows Phone, Windows 8 Metro, etc. That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest benefits of using .NET - you can use the same languages, libraries, UI architecture, etc. everywhere without having to have a completely different skill set for writing web services, desktop apps, browser apps, tablet apps, mobile apps. Other than Microsoft's solution, I'm not aware of another single architecture that you can learn once and apply to all those platforms.

  60. MS Has Silverlight Client for Mac by rwade · · Score: 1

    Last I heard, Netflix streaming uses Silverlight, despite the completely lack (at the time) of support on any platform other than Winders.

    According to wikipedia, Silverlight is supported on Macs by Microsoft's own software.

    1. Re:MS Has Silverlight Client for Mac by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Oh... (waving hand dismissively) Macs.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  61. Minecraft is killing halo by xmorg · · Score: 1

    lol...what?

  62. you're right by vaporland · · Score: 0

    I work in web software development management and it is obvious that MS is going to bet the ranch on Windows / Phone / 8 / Metro, and throw their legacy development partners / users under the bus.

    I hope it pays off for them. It's been a long time coming, maybe they've finally seen the light. Problem is, when you make such a radical change, your legacy folks will be forced to seriously consider other options from other vendors.

    The interesting part is that if they do succeed, it'll be MS and not Apple or Google driving the bleeding edge - MS will be freer to take take risks on new tech than other established platforms with legacy baggage to drag along. The cool kids might be attracted to the new shiny MS dev tools rather than the staid J2EE etc alternatives...

    --
    Ask Me About... The 80's!
    1. Re:you're right by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Obvious? How so? Metro is only a subsystem of Windows 8, and it won't make much sense for desktop scenarios. It's great for tablets.

      Personally, I don't expect Metro to take off any more than WPF or Silverlight has. They are not throwing anyone under a bus, since standard windows apps continue to work just fine.

    2. Re:you're right by vaporland · · Score: 1

      someone modded this post as troll... 2nd time in one week... but before that, never in six years, go figure.

      --
      Ask Me About... The 80's!
  63. Without Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No Silverlight.

  64. *.flv by Whiteox · · Score: 1

    What was the point of it anyway? Total waste of time - just another file type that needs to be converted - stupidstupidstupid. Web disaster too.

    --
    Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  65. Much ado about nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft discontinued VB6 in 1999, and yet now, in 2011, you can still install VB6 - even on (as of yet unreleased) Windows 8 - and create or update applications, that are compatible with Windows 8.

    I have zero fear of the implications that Microsoft, who plans very far in advance, will not be supporting version if Silverlight past version 5 (which is still in beta, FYI). This means the drop dead porting date for your Silverlight applications in probably a bit past 2025.

    All this Silverlight FUD is from people who know nothing about the extraordinary legacy support Microsoft provides, their very long product lifecycles, and their far ahead thinking.

  66. Re:General Problem with Developing on Microsoft by purpledinoz · · Score: 1

    You are right, I'm venting a little bit because MS products have pissed me off a few times. I am talking from experience, not blindly bashing MS. I am a C# developer, so I do like .NET, but there are a few things surrounding .NET that really suck.

    • MSTest: a terrible copy of NUnit. From my experience NUnit is way better than MSTest.
    • Entity Framework: A copy of NHibernate. First version was barely usable.... Second version has LINQ support, which is very nice.
    • TFS Source Control: An SVN copy? With a twist though. You have to checkout files! How annoying!
    • ASP.NET2: So we're not supposed to use view states? And AJAX, UpdatePanel? AJAX Control ToolKit? MVC? MVC2? MVC3? Screw it, maybe I'll learn JQuery and Ruby on Rails.
  67. SilverLight == JS widget kits by RandomBarker · · Score: 1

    Silverlight is not just a video streaming tech. It's a great client-side library that works great for business apps.

    Currently, there is no JS widget kit (Dojo, et al) that provides the experience that SL can.

    SL has a long life as an enterprise solution platform.

    MS could even produce a version of SL that renders to the HTML5 canvas.

  68. And pigs may fly by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Perhaps a desktop application is coming for Mac OS/Windows/Linux.

    Not while CEO Reed Hastings sits on Microsoft's Board of Directors. They will just transition to whatever proprietary next-gen DRM garbage Microsoft haphazardly staples onto HTML5.

  69. I certainly won't miss it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have never, ever used Silverlight. When it was first brought out I refused to install it. When my wife and I bought new PCs this year I uninstalled it the day we got the computers. Windows Update keeps telling me that updates are available and I always tell it to ignore them. If Silverlight goes away, it will only affect me in one way: I might stop getting notifications to update software that I don't even have.

  70. Nothing lost... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    We have not lost anything that important, but many have lost the money they spent getting certified in this crappy technology.

  71. ...surprise! by kikito · · Score: 1

    ...

    not.

  72. Finally! by Wolfger · · Score: 1

    Now we can finally get a version of Moonlight that's fully compatible with the latest version of Silverlight... Eventually....

  73. What about all the set-top boxes and whatnot? by gosand · · Score: 1

    I'm planning to get a DVD player this holiday season that supports Netflix. I wonder how this will impact all those that already have devices (game systems, tvs, etc) that support netflix. I just went through watching all 7 seasons of Trailer Park Boys via Netflix watching them on my wife's laptop and via a windows VM on my computer. It was great! Even if I could have figured out how to copy them via Netflix, I wouldn't have. I mean, I know I can go out and download them via torrents, but as long as they are available on Netflix, why should I?

    I've always wondered about this kind of thing from way back when MP3s emerged for music. If they would make the content cheap and available, we wouldn't have this rabid need to hoarde it. Now there is no guarantee that Netflix will always have what I want to see, and I do have to pay a subscription fee... but as long as I do and they have what I want to watch, I don't feel the need to have a local copy. Once someone gets it, and content is available all the time for a reasonable subscription price, I don't think people would be so hell-bent on retaining local copies of stuff. Some will, but I think they put way too much focus on preventing that instead of making it unnecessary.

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

    1. Re:What about all the set-top boxes and whatnot? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I subscribe to both Netflix, and Usenet, I definitely prefer Netflix for ease, even with an HTPC.

      The download is a better product, but so-what, Netflix is convenient and good enough.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  74. native on the web by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think about silverlight, but not as a plugin, but natively on the web. I thin the future will look like this. Js and html cant solve all problems, you need some native code there not depending on slowly emerging vendor standarts.