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Will Windows 8 Be Ready For Release In 2012?
MrSeb writes with an excerpt from an Extreme Tech article on the Windows 8 release timeline: "...A Microsoft vice president announced that the Windows 8 beta would begin in late February 2012. The beta will be feature-complete and will allow developers to begin listing their apps in the Store. The timing of the beta is curious, and ultimately quite telling. ... The first public build of Windows 8 ... emerged in mid-September 2011; by the time the beta rolls around, it will have been ruminating for more than five months. If we follow the timeline forward — it took 10 months for Windows 7 to go from beta to public release — then it's possible that Windows 8 might arrive just in time for Black Friday 2012, or perhaps not in 2012 at all. Will its late arrival affect its chances of cutting out a swath of the tablet market from Apple and Android? Or will Windows 8 be different enough that it will do well, no matter when it arrives?"
In related news, an anonymous reader notes that IDC predicts Windows 8 will be irrelevant to the traditional PC market.
In related news, an anonymous reader notes that IDC predicts Windows 8 will be irrelevant to the traditional PC market.
Yeah but have you seen how cheap the report is from IDC? It's a mere $3,500.00 which is a steal considering I just shelled out twelve and a half large for their forecast on computing devices. My god, the forecast I bought was a piddly 27 page PDF while this Windows 8 report is a weighty tome totaling 17 pages in girth and might even result in a printed copy that that I can set on my desk and hold down with a real human skull paperweight completely encrusted with diamonds. At this price, I am buying one copy for every member of my extended family -- these things will make great stocking stuffers next to moon rocks, 1913 Liberty Nickels and the keys to each person's personalized yacht. Of course he tweeted the meat and potatoes of this report -- they're practically GIVING it away on their site already! Be sure to stock up on these before they sell out!
My work here is dung.
Ill be waiting for SP1. Server 2008 R2 has shown (at least to me) that Microsoft is trying to make server tasks more accessible at the cost of options and tweaking. Instead of having a nice GUI with lots of options, it's a purdy GUI with few options and the rest buried in some power shell syntax. Server 8 doesn't look like its helping their case.
The "traditional market" is a combination of consumers and bulk business users. The consumer market doesn't use XP much any more (outside of the Asian pirate community). The businesses still stuck on XP are slowly migrating as their old hardware dies, or switching to other devices ... BUT ... (there's always a "but") Windows 8 fulfills Microsoft's goal of moving back to a more frequent release model, thereby enabling them to EOL earlier versions quicker.
They don't want a repeat of XP, where an old OS cannibalizes future sales, ever again. You'll see annual "new versions", same as the iPhone (Balmer steals another Apple trick).
It's a data-centric UI v. a function-centric UI. The premise is to put what the user needs most right in front of him quickly. Mail, meetings, weather, contacts, etc. can be readily accessible with minimal effort.
The idea is that most people might not even end up needing to use the desktop.
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Who would have guessed that phones would completely be the thing to mangle and ruin PC user interfaces... It's crazy but I've come full circle to thinking KDE4 might actually be the only sane desktop team left. Unless they're planning on turning it into a tablet/phone UI as well.
But, are the users who prefer to have say, a PDF or browser window taking up one half of the desktop and say VS taking up the other half, reading reference material and trying it out practically
Or VLC(or any other video player) and a web browser open side by side,etc
or even a web browser and a chat client
a real minority?
Well, of course, it will be irrelevant to the traditional market. Most of us have barely upgraded, businesses are barely turning the corner off of WinXP, and, from what I've observed, this is marketed for the mobile arena. I could be wrong on that last point, but that is my perception.
Three things:
1. Everyone knows that every other release of Windows is good (Win 3.1, 98, XP, 7) and every other one sucks (Win 3.0, 95, ME, Vista.) No enterprise is going to jump on this release.
2. Enterprises are in various states of completing their transition to Win 7. Very few enterprises are going to begin another rip and replace cycle next year, so no one is going to jump on this release.
3. Everything in the press has stated how Microsoft has taken a different direction for this user interface (but lately admitting the old one is still there.) No enterprise is going to jump on this release.
With regards to tablets and phones.. I really don't care what OS mine runs other than I want to to work exactly the way I want it to work. I doubt Win8 will.
----- obSig
Do we care?
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
December 22, 2012. Unless there is no end of the world the previous day, in that case could be delayed,
No wonder the Mayans thought the world would end in 2012. Either that or their calendar software wasn't Win8 compatible.
No good deed goes unpunished. - Avon, Blake's 7
They can certainly do all of that in Windows 8.
Are you under the impression that they can't?
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
I think it'll be the inability to get any serious work done without a keyboard and a mouse that will affect its chances much more than a few months difference either way on release.
And how is that any different from any other tablet OS?
You aren't getting it.
Windows 8 is a super-set of Windows 7, with some really amazing advances on the desktop side (from a vastly improved Task Manager to impoved large disk management, to faster boot times, faster/better file copies, etc).
Metro apps are a bonus. Everything that ran on Win7 will run on Win8.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
That was what my (admittedly short) experience with Win 8 seemed to saw
Unless I moved apps to the desktop app, I was unable to have more than 1 onscreen at a time. Had to swap the whole app in and out of view
Perhaps I'll try it out again
Like SpryGuy said, you aren't getting it.
In Windows, the desktop is actually an app in and of itself. When explorer.exe is first run, it loads the desktop (all icons that go on it) and the taskbar. If you never run Explorer, you'll never get the desktop. It's the same thing here; a person doesn't actually have to run Explorer, and if they don't, then the desktop will never load. The first UI the user will see will be the Metro UI, not Explorer.
Now, the second a person runs a traditional windowed application, the desktop will load as well for UI consistency, and all applications (graphically) will be contained within that layer. However, not every windowed application has to be paired with the desktop. If you run the task manager, for instance, it will float above everything else even if you switch back to the Metro UI or use a Metro application.
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It's Windows Phone - on your desktop. Like who wouldn't want that?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Please explain how you can make file copies better.
I seem to remember reading that Windows 8 removed that stupid 'preparing to copy' thing which wastes a ton of time completely failing to work out how much time the copy is going to take so it can put up the progress bar for you?
Either way, it could hardly be worse than file copies in Vista, where copying a 2MB file could take five minutes.
That notion has been thoroughly debunked already. Let it go.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Ever copied a bunch of files at once on Windows?
Windows 8 has essentially integrated Teracopy into the OS
In the metro interface you can have windows side by side: http://youtu.be/p92QfWOw88I?t=2m04s
Now, this apparently only works for higher resolution monitors (although a simple registry hack removes this restriction), so maybe that was why you couldn't do it.
However, this is beside the point that any user can go on the desktop and run any number of apps side by side (PDF, browser, VS, VLC, or otherwise).
There are regular Windows desktop apps (just like now, including every Windows app out tehre).
And there are new "Metro" apps, which are targeted at touch-tablet devices... but can run on desktop systems.
Metro apps can run one or two on a screen at once. They're full screen (like iPad apps), but you can "dock" two of them side-by-side as well. They're designed for tablets though. You CAN run them on a desktop, and I'm sure there will ultimately be many "Metro" apps people will want to run on Desktops... ... but most desktop people will stay in desktop. I knwo they've called it an "App", but that's just a silly way to think of it. You sit at the desktop just like you do now in Win7. Instead of the small Start Menu, you have a big Start Screen. Hit escape and you're back on the desktop just like with the Start Menu. You still have the task bar for windows apps, and you can flip full-screen metro apps in if you like and cycle through them (or switch to them with Task Manager).
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
This does a pretty good job explaining it: http://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/all-about-windows-8-filename-collisions-and-copy-move-dialog-box/
Windows 9 is going to be everything and nothing at once. They're stripping the kernel to its core and use it as the basis for all their products. Desktop OS, mobile OS, Xbox, set top boxes, etc. It's going to be a great thing for MS because they'll be able to focus on improving a unified core. Basically, they're trying to do with Windows what everyone has been doing with Linux for years, make it something that's easily scalable and customizable across a family of products.
It's going to save MS a ton of money and allow them to focus on keeping their products secure and fast instead of constantly having to patch crappy modules of code that have been carried over for a decade. Microsoft is a lot smarter than people give them credit for, they're just such a huge entity that it takes a while for their plans to build inertia.
Wise men say, "Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."
If this is the Microsoft I'm familiar with, it'll probably be: "Windows isn't done 'till Office won't run." I mean, we are talking about an entity that cannot keep interfaces consistent across divisions of the same company.
I am forced to work with Outlook 2007 under Windows XP. What a nightmare. Copy/Paste doesn't even work consistently within the application itself. Sometimes you'll copy text out of a message and paste into a reply of the same thread, and either the OS or the App will add extra returns and spaces/tabs for no apparent reason. Annoying.
Worse still is Outlook's annoying habit of "are you sure" for EVERYTHING. Find an email with an attachment, open it, close the email. Windows/Outlook asks "Save changes to attachment?" NO. All I did was OPEN it, I didn't change squat! Why the app can't figure this out is a MAJOR FAILURE of Q/A.
So trust me, it'll be Office that breaks under Win8. Or something else critical. Or maybe it'll be by design so that everyone that "upgrades" to Win8 will be forced to buy new copies of Office.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Everything you wanted to know about Windows 8 file copy enhancements:
Improving our file management basics: copy, move, rename, and delete: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/23/improving-our-file-management-basics-copy-move-rename-and-delete.aspx
Designing the Windows 8 file name collision experience: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/26/designing-the-windows-8-file-name-collision-experience.aspx
Building robust USB 3.0 support: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/08/22/building-robust-usb-3-0-support.aspx
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
"Or will Windows 8 be different enough that it will do well, no matter when it arrives?"
I think Windows 8 will be different enough that it will do badly, no matter when it arrives.
A huge population of computer users do not want "new and different". This is a large part of why Windows XP has remain entrenched for so long, not just in businesses but also in people's homes. I made a point of replacing my parents' aging XP computer with a new one while XP was still available because I knew they'd hate learning whatever changes there were in Vista. On the other hand, now that XP is no longer a realistic option for new systems, I'll be watching the release date of Win8, so I can get them their next computer with Win7 on it, because it'll be less drastic a change than Windows 8 would be. I'd even undertake the effort of switching them to OS X or Linux before I'd try to switch them to Win8. (It's the same reason I find people familiar with ye olde MS Office tend to prefer switching to Open/LibreOffice rather than to MS Office 2007/2010.)
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
I meant "The features of teracopy"
The program has existed since Vista atleast (maybe earlier)
features such as queuing copies, not running 2 simultaneous operations from the same disk if one is maxing out the read speed, an adjustable buffer, failing from a copy gracefully, pause and resume function, identifying if the source and destination are the same or different device,etc
were never in Windows
Let me just try that out - hold on;
Me: What could be a huge market for tablet devices which utilize native handwriting recognition and run industry standard software?
Siri: I found 7 industry standards... 3 of them are not far from you: [...]
Me: No, no, Siri, listen, I need a huge market for tablet devices which utilize native handrwriting recognition!
Siri: The Ojibwa and Tuskarora Iroquois are recognized Native American tribes near your location.
Me: Siri, are you dumb? I am looking for a huge market for tablet devices which utilize native handrwriting recognition!
Siri: I found 5 markets for tablets are near your location. Tap the one you want directions to:
You get lost easily.
He's simply showing that these same things were said about Office 2007, and turned out not to be true, so all these same hysterical rantings of doom and gloom are likely to not be true about Windows 8 as well (using history as a guide).
Was that really that difficult to follow??
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
The same approach was taken to redoing the UI in Office that was taken here with Windows 8, with the exception that a backwards compatibility layer had to be retained on x86. Regardless, some major usability research went into ensuring that users wouldn't be put off by the change and that users could actually be more productive with it.
Microsoft has some of the best user experience research teams in the country. Given the approach with Metro UI (consolidated functions, rather than individual functions that produce their own data), I'm expecting it to help people be more productive in the long run, even if there's some initial apprehension in the short term. The same thing happened with Office 2007 when this exact methodology was followed (consolidating functions, researching user apprehension as well as usability).
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"Windows 9 is going to be everything and nothing at once. They're stripping the kernel to its core and use it as the basis for all their products. Desktop OS, mobile OS, Xbox, set top boxes, etc. It's going to be a great thing for MS because they'll be able to focus on improving a unified core. Basically, they're trying to do with Windows what everyone has been doing with Linux for years, make it something that's easily scalable and customizable across a family of products.
It's going to save MS a ton of money and allow them to focus on keeping their products secure and fast instead of constantly having to patch crappy modules of code that have been carried over for a decade"
How is that going to work? They'll be supporting the New, Really new We Mean It This Time This Is The Shiznit API and all the old ones starting from WFC, J++, silverlight, some of the .net, etc etc rot but still need to be patched.
How much of the support problems are from the kernel and how much from the huge layers of stuff on top?
Windows 8 offers you roaming profiles, single-signon, profiles on a USB-key, dramatically faster boot times and resume times, lower power useage, higher security, better modern device support (USB 3.x, very large drives)...
Metro as a UI offers tablet users a better touch-friendly experience, as well as a "unified' UI look and feel across Microsoft Phones, Tablets, Desktops, and XBox.
Anything you can do in Win7, you will continue to be able to do in Win8.
Win8 will also enable usable Tablet form-factors.
The Metro apps shipped with the current Win8 developer preview are just little "demo" apps, written by MS Interns over a weekend. They do not show the full range of capabilities of Metro apps. Over time, you can imagine all of MS Office, and a ton of games, will be offered as metro style apps. So you'll have more than just "weather" and "stock" apps, if that's what you're concerned about. And Metro apps are sandboxed in a way that makes them very secure.
Windows 8 is offering a lot, but I think most people are getting completely distracted by the Start Screen, an unfinished UI, and a hand-full of simple "demo" apps... it'll be more obvious I think once the beta is released. Then we'll have a better handle on the strengths and weaknesses.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Right. See the inconsistency?
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so.. in other words. everything a *nix based os has had for years. why do i get the feeling microsoft is like a horse in a race wearing a dunce cap?
I tried it, and found it unusable. So have many others. With all due respect, I think we know what the hell we're talking about. If your new UI doesn't work well for most people who try it out, you are doing it horribly wrong.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
With their (MS) history of every other version flavor of Windows having problems, I'll wait for the successor to Win 8. Consider the history...
Win 95 - Win 98
Win NT - Win 2000
Win Me - Win XP
Win Vista - Win 7
Granted, the second one of each pair had problems but not nearly as much problems as the first. Is there a pattern here?
Well, I'm glad you're so open minded about it.
I'll agree that it's jarring right now. But if you actually take the time to get used to it, it's not that bad. But there are still some significant issues I have with it, that I hope get addressed in the Beta (or before GA at any rate).
I think it says a lot that you wasted the time to configure your XP start menu to look like 95's. That's just... I dunno. Weird.
I used to spend a lot of time micro-managing the start menu in XP. It was a pain, but I could get it the way I wanted. In Win7 I was initially put of that you couldn't do this any more... but after using it, I realized I didn't need to any more.
The Start Screen is much like that. It's different. I have some muscle-memory that is having difficulty adjusting to a few things. I've had to "re-think" a few of the ways I used to do things, but with a few exeptions, most things are better now.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
2010 does suck though
The file menu takes up the entire screen for one
I'm wondering if Microsoft is contemplating giving windows away more or less free and then locking down the platform and go for an app store model where they take a cut of the software pie. A more secure DRM'd platform... Certainly takes away most of the threat of viruses and trojans and that could be used to sell the idea to the public.
Well, there's also the whole "Roaming profiles" thing throug the cloud, the "Windows Live ID" sign-on that enables it, the ability to keep your profile on a USB Key... allowing your Windows experience to be independent of the actual physical hardware you log into... That's big.
The inclusion of Hyper-V is also interesting, as is Native support for ISOs and VHDs. The ability to reset/reinstall windows with a click, without losing your data... "refresh". Improved shadow-copy and backup/restore.
There's lots of stuff in there that, taken together, makes for a good Windows 8 improvement, irrespective of the additional tablet and Metro functionality.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
If that were ALL there were, you MIGHT have a point (but only barely). Taken in aggregate with all the changes and additions though, I don't see how you can possibly support your notion that Windows 8 is nothing more than a "service pack". Kernel enhnacements, boot enhancements, file system enhancements, UI enhancements, plus the whole Metro/WinRT/Touch stuff, roaming profiles, cloud storage and access integration, and on and on... certainly sounds like a major version update to me.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
The term "Enterprise" with regards to Microsoft?
It refers to the cream of the crop, in terms of software. The software that has no built-in limitations (market segmentation), and typically a fair number of advanced features. In my experience, Microsoft rarely offers anything above Enterprise...I'm having trouble think of an example. This tier of the software is typically used for companies in excess of 10,000 employees or when you are really going overboard with clustering / redundancies / data mining.
The word itself?
enÂterÂprise noun \Ëen-tÉ(TM)(r)-ËOEprÄz\
Definition of ENTERPRISE
1
: a project or undertaking that is especially difficult, complicated, or risky
2
: readiness to engage in daring or difficult action : initiative
3
a : a unit of economic organization or activity; especially : a business organization
b : a systematic purposeful activity
See enterprise defined for English-language learners Â
See enterprise defined for kids Â
Examples of ENTERPRISE
Moving the drilling rig offshore was a costly enterprise.
Agriculture is the main economic enterprise among these people.
When he purchased the company it was a thriving commercial enterprise.
He was criticized for his lack of enterprise in dealing with the crisis.
Origin of ENTERPRISE
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from entreprendre to undertake, from entre- inter- + prendre to take â" more at prize
First Known Use: 15th century
So, it's usually a synonym for "business" or "venture," but in MS nomenclature it has a connotation for a very large business (lots of money, 99.999999999999% up-time, multiple offices in multiple countries). It's the business equivalent of the consumer tier called Ultimate. Now that I think about it, Windows 7 is the only product I know of that has both an Enterprise and Ultimate edition.
Windows 7 Enterprise
This edition targets the enterprise segment of the market and is sold through volume licensing to companies which have a Software Assurance contract with Microsoft.[1] Additional features include support for Multilingual User Interface (MUI) packages, BitLocker Drive Encryption, and UNIX application support.[1] Not available through retail or OEM channels, this edition is distributed through Microsoft Software Assurance (SA).[1] As a result it includes several SA-only benefits, including a license allowing the operating of diskless nodes (diskless PCs), the running of multiple virtual machines, and activation via VLK.[12] Like Professional, Microsoft will support this edition until 2020.
Windows 7 Ultimate
Windows 7 Ultimate contains all of the same features as Windows 7 Enterprise, but unlike the Enterprise edition, it is available to home users on an individual license basis.[1] Windows 7 Home Premium and Windows 7 Professional users are able to upgrade to Windows 7 Ultimate for a fee using Windows Anytime Upgrade if they wish to do so.[1] Unlike Windows Vista Ultimate, the Windows 7 Ultimate edition does not include the Windows Ultimate Extras feature or any exclusive features as Microsoft had stated.[1] However, even though it is the consumer equivalent to Enterprise, like Home Premium, Microsoft will only support Ultimate until 2015.[13]
I am John Hurt.
Why must MS take this path? They have a perfectly usable GUI right now...and I do not want the Apple or Minority Report approach to computing.
Yes, touch screens are fun, no, any large amount of typing on a touch screen is murder on one's hands. I do not want a VS 2014 with integrated touch screen capabilities.
I am John Hurt.
Yeah seriously. Many times have I copied two folders on top of each other, knowing ahead of time that both sets contain duplicates in the other set, and have to click that dialog box to overwrite/ignore what are essentially copies of the same exact file. Why Windows can't just decide for you is beyond me.
I guess technically they could have different permissions, maybe? But Windows could always check their permissions against each other to make sure they were the same before deciding to ignore the file.
Okay, I've read every single post of yours in this discussion up to this point, and have one question: Are you indeed a Microsoft employee, or an employee of a PR firm talking on behalf of Microsoft? Please be honest. I won't think less of you if you just come clean, I'd actually think more of you.
I ask this because there is no way in hell any person on this planet could fine absolutely no fault with a product, especially one that introduces completely new UX principles, and changes the long term functionality of an old system. Most OS X (or Windows, or iOS, or Android, or Linux flavor) fanboys can at least list one or two gripes about their pet platform. You, on the other hand (correct me if I'm wrong), think that Win 8 is the second coming of Christ, and Metro will wash away all of our sins.
You have to eventually (outside of not being paid to) realize that various UX schemes world for various people and various tasks better than other schemes. While Metro might be nice for some people, and some uses (information consumers), it somewhat fails in other areas, and for other users. I played with the dev preview, and will not be purchasing it. This isn't an objective judgement on its intrinsic merits, but rather an observation that it completely fails for my own personal way of doing things, and clashes with my subjective aesthetic considerations. Further, its functions would be redundant for its role on my desktop PC, since I already use my phone and tablet for the tasks that it seems to think that I find important. I find touch UIs to be great, on touch screens, and I might even try a W8 tablet someday (when my forthcoming Transformer dies) Again (to avoid trolling), this is purely subjective.
There are obvious failings in Win 8, or at least from a standard usability context. These failings might be mitigated by great implementation, or decent added functionality. But from this point of view I don't see this. I haven't seen anything in Win 8 (outside of under the hood stuff, which isn't really all that innovative or as much improvement to make me want to put up with the other changes) that really makes me want to switch from Win 7. I was genuinely excited by Win 7, and lived though all the hassle of the dev preview and beta just because it was that much better than Vista (or any other version of Windows). Windows 7 fits my workflow perfectly, and if something isn't broke I see no reason to fix it.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
No. Have you ever tried to do anything on a Windows desktop with your finger instead of a mouse? It sucks. Full-screen only (or very, very limited window management) is a sane choice for touch only devices where you can't hit targets (or move them) precisely enough.
http://www.moonlight3d.eu/