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Why Freemium Doesn't Work

itwbennett writes "Tyler Nichols learned an obvious but important lesson with his freemium Letter from Santa site: 'most people who want something for free will never, ever think of paying you, no matter how valuable they find your service.' He also discovered that non-paying customers are more demanding than paying customers, which only stands to reason: If someone likes your service enough to pay for it, they probably have an affinity for your brand and will be kinder."

321 comments

  1. Free2play in games... by blahplusplus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... seems to contradict his argument. The game is free to play but there are aspects of the game that are enhanced if you pay.

    1. Re:Free2play in games... by Arran4 · · Score: 1

      Think of the items they sell as independent products that extend the game, and it works fine.

    2. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No no no, the major companies making millions of dollars on Free2play games don't count. One guy with 100k customers offering shitty PDF downloads of something anyone could make for free with with basic knowledge of Microsoft Word didn't make as much money as he wanted and had to answer hundreds of emails, so therefor freemium is dead.

    3. Re:Free2play in games... by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      look, if you're thrifty or want free stuff. you wouldn't be playing those games in the first place. nothing free about them, quite the opposite. so those who are playing them are thinking about paying quite a lot, in fact the whole time they play they'll be thinking about money and if to spend it on some stupid in-game product or not.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:Free2play in games... by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Multiplayer games also benefit greatly from network effects. Nobody would play WoW if they were the only one on the server.

      If you don't have a 9 figure marketing budget, you're probably struggling to get more players, and as mentioned already, most multiplayer games aren't fun without a lot of other players. So keeping that in mind, why would you go and shoot yourself in the foot by turning away 90% (or probably more) of your potential users by requiring payment up front?

      For example, Game! is free to play and has been played by thousands of people, it also has a marketing budget of $0. I can only imagine if I'd required payment up front it'd probably have been played by dozens or maybe hundreds instead. That's a pretty big difference.

      Unsurprisingly, people have been conditioned to expect things for free on the Internet. Making the jump from free to a penny is much larger than the jump from a penny to $10 or probably even $100. People will spend $5 on a latte every day and think nothing of it, because nobody is giving away free lattes, but ask them to spend $5 to access a website and they'll balk, after all, there's all those other websites that they can access for free.

    5. Re:Free2play in games... by tbannist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even worse, Tyler Nichols contradicts his own argument. If you read through the comments on his blog you find that he eventually admits that nearly 100% of his paying customers tried the free version before paying, thus the first part of his premise is wrong. Most people who tried the free service didn't pay him, but enough did that he was considering keeping the site going as a pay only site. So his evidence contradicts his premise that freemium doesn't work. Instead he presents evidence that some businessmen are so wrapped up in their own indignation that they can't recognize a business model that's actually working as intended for them.

      His biggest problem seems to be that his unsolicited marketing email was marked as spam (because it is spam). The best solution to that problem is either to accept that the free people may not even remember your site a month after they use it and expect some of them to flag it as spam, or to only send email to people who upgraded to the paid version. They're the people most likely to pay for his related easter site, anyway.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    6. Re:Free2play in games... by deains · · Score: 2

      look, if you're thrifty or want free stuff. you wouldn't be playing those games in the first place.

      Wait, what? Haven't you even heard of FarmVille?

    7. Re:Free2play in games... by stewbacca · · Score: 4, Funny

      Nobody would play WoW if they were the only one on the server

      Oh gawd how wrong this is. I played WoW despite the thousands of morons on my server. The average intellectual power of random WoW player is pretty much indiscernible from the NPCs. Often the only way to tell the difference between the two is the NPCs frequently have a big yellow exclamation point above their head.

    8. Re:Free2play in games... by Liambp · · Score: 1

      It is true that gaming companies have refined the premium model to a fine art AND many of them are making good money out of it. They use all kinds of hooks to entice you into paying and to keep paying once you have made that first purchase. Even so, from what I have read it is generally accepted that 90% of your customers won't pay a dime so you just have to get enough revenue from the 10% who will. Personally I am quite uneasy about this aspect of freemium because by design the few paying customers have to subsidise the many and therefore they must pay way over the odds. In the gaming world you hear of committed players customers spending $100's every month on a fairly rudimentary games as opposed to the $15/month charged by the few remaining subscription games.

      The game companies also have the support issue nailed. Free customers get no direct support. If lucky thy have access to a single forum.

    9. Re:Free2play in games... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Multiplayer games also benefit greatly from network effects. Nobody would play WoW if they were the only one on the server.

      That's the only way I would play WoW.

    10. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even worse, Tyler Nichols contradicts his own argument. If you read through the comments on his blog you find that he eventually admits that nearly 100% of his paying customers tried the free version before paying, thus the first part of his premise is wrong. Most people who tried the free service didn't pay him, but enough did that he was considering keeping the site going as a pay only site. So his evidence contradicts his premise that freemium doesn't work.

      >

      No it doesn't. The position:
      Lots of people are paying for this content, but the vast majority are not, and the ones who are not are costing me too much money. I'm going to ditch the free-loaders and go pay only.

      Is entirely self consistent.

    11. Re:Free2play in games... by SerpentMage · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Come on get real here...

      The freemium model is a sucky model. It does not mean that freemium can't work for some. Just like how OpenSource works for some, eg Redhat, but on the whole Open Source is devastating the software development and sell model. Compare the revs of those companies that only sell software and those companies that sell or enhance or what have you with open source. The difference in monies is monumental! I am not complaining here, I am saying it as it is.

      I remember nearly a decade ago I was at SD hosting a BOF on the impact of Open Source. We danced for hours around the issue and it was a very good BOF. At the end I summed it up and we all agreed, the software developer will not make the same amount of money as they had until the 2000 crash. I stand by the statement and it was true. Since 2000 the wages of the software industry as a developer have been driven down due to Open Source, and due to out sourcing.

      Again not saying that nobody can make money. It is just that Software has become a winner take all model. Where a few make good decent money, but most struggle to make any money. I instead use Open Source to solve other problems. Makes things good for me though, but I am not creating base infrastructure software like I did in the 90's. It is what it is, and freemium is the same thing...

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    12. Re:Free2play in games... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      People will spend $5 on a latte every day and think nothing of it, because nobody is giving away free lattes,

      Um, many workplaces do. Granted, you have to be smart enough to figure out how to use the espresso brewer and the steam attachment, but if you aren't, why did they hire you?

    13. Re:Free2play in games... by rtb61 · · Score: 2

      The reality is any tech minded people will look at a site like that or the email greeting card sites as what they are, data and email harvesting sites of the worst order. Generally speaking the only time you want to make use of anything like that is from a site that already has your details and you are aware of the privacy laxities, no need to add another to the list.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    14. Re:Free2play in games... by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I believe Zynga took in more money than EA this past year. And a couple years ago Zynga didn't even exist. EA has been scrambling to copy Zynga's freemium model.

      MMO after MMO that was losing money have switched to freemium models and become more successful than they ever were with premium models.

      And companies like IBM, Google, etc. make billions on the back of open source software. But clearly you're right that this is the exception and can only work in a handful of cases. They must only succeed out of dumb luck, because the model itself can't possibly make any sense. Companies like Google don't know what they're doing.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    15. Re:Free2play in games... by lynnae · · Score: 1

      In the gaming world you hear of committed players customers spending $100's every month on a fairly rudimentary games as opposed to the $15/month charged by the few remaining subscription games.

      ... or as opposed to those who play well made online games that have no subscription and a one off fee like Guild Wars.
      or games like Anarchy and Ryzom which are both free, totally, for vary large portion of the game.

      the small amount of people who rack up debt to farmville are very odd ducks indeed. I don't think any subscription system would save them from their own madness.

    16. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would pay five bucks (or some type of monthly fee... you know, like a magazine) to access a well designed website that had great content and no ads. I'd probably pay ten if it would get rid of all the crappy sites that are regurgitating content to post with their ads.

    17. Re:Free2play in games... by DCTech · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's absolutely correct. Zynga is taking in more money and valued higher than the whole EA and the only way MMO's have been able to battle WoW has been with free2play models.

      On top of that Valve has had huge success by making Team Fortress 2 free. The best thing about TF2 is that it doesn't even feel like they're trying to cash you. You can get everything in the game, but the game is so good that I have happily spend some cash on the store too. On top of that they have created such a good in-game economy that people are spending time on trading inside it and cashing out. And just to say it again - all of this without making the game worse or anyone feeling like they need to buy something from the store, because you can get everything via game, trading or crafting too. And the vanilla weapons are often better than the unlockable ones!

    18. Re:Free2play in games... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      That depends on the game. Some actually require you to spend money to advance, but others just trade time for money (you can get the same for free if you spend time grinding).

    19. Re:Free2play in games... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      The question is whether he'll have any customers going that route.

    20. Re:Free2play in games... by lambent · · Score: 1

      jumping around like a crack-addled kangaroo typically helps separate them, too.

      idiot players was the main reason i quit WoW. they just made the game miserable.

    21. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the site has to put in it's FAQ that it doesn't do data mining, doesn't sell/publish user data, doesn't display ads, and only makes money from donations.

    22. Re:Free2play in games... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing new here:

      Give away an $8 razor for $2.99 and sell the $0.02 blades for $0.25 each.

      Give a non-user a taste of smack, or two, or three, then start charging after they are hooked.

      Analogies about sex and marriage might be seen as in bad taste, but the same principle applies:

      Give it away until they "need it," then charge some seemingly reasonable (but usually highly profitable) price for it later.

      Open Source doesn't do that, but many of the most successful business models throughout time have.

    23. Re:Free2play in games... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      Tyler's concept is like "it didn't work for me, so it can't possibly work". Aside from the fact that free e-cards don't really have any premium demand, is this much of a surprise?

      He did a horrible job and blames his customers? I'm glad this guy isn't going to continue developing, not that he ever did anything I'd call development in the first place.

    24. Re:Free2play in games... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anybody notice that WOW is free to play up to level 20 now?

      For WOW junkies, level 20 is laughable, but for people who have never played before, do you think 20 levels is enough to get you hooked?

    25. Re:Free2play in games... by icebraining · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      So why don't you subscribe for /. ?

      well designed website

      Oh, I see.

    26. Re:Free2play in games... by DCTech · · Score: 2

      It has been for years. It's basically trial. Not sure what they name it now, but trial was always up to level 20 too.

    27. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I really don't think it's a sucky model at all, I actually think it's a great model. It gives customers two very important things: the ability to try before they buy and the ability to pick and chose what they want based on itemized cost. People complain that it's "dishonest" because they use the word free but you end up spending money, but that's because people are stupid. Almost everything on a Freemium model is upfront about the fact that they are not a charity and some parts will cost money. Except instead of having to give a pile of money upfront for things you may or may not want, you get to give things a try for free and, if you like it, spend money on what you want to spend money on as you use it. That said, it's not a miracle or a catch all, there are a lot of ways it can fail:

      1. Pay2Win, or the non game equivalent where the free version is a useless, crippled piece of crap that's not suitable for anything. People see through this cheap ploy pretty quickly and generally just develop an extremely negative association with the product, and the company would have been better off without the free version.

      2. Macrosized microtransactions. This one is interesting, in that we still haven't really found where the line is. People buy $15 dollar virtual hats for Team Fortress 2, but then get angry over a $10 price tag on a DCUO expansion. In the non game world it gets even murkier, and I don't think has been explored very much yet. For example, how many people here have upgraded the size of their GMail inbox? Is it overpriced? Underpriced? I have no idea.

      3. Your product sucks, like this guy. As I said, the Freemium model isn't a miracle. A great business model on a bad product is as useful as a nice tuxedo on a pile of dog shit. See also, Hotmail. Although, interestingly enough, it would appear that you can put out a pretty crappy MMO in the Freemium model and make a lot more money than a mediocre MMO with a subscription model.

    28. Re:Free2play in games... by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      ... or as opposed to those who play well made online games that have no subscription and a one off fee like Guild Wars.

      Guild Wars hardly was a "one-off" fee. Look at the rate at which they released *PAID* expansions. If you want to keep up with the game you pretty much have to buy multiple expansions annually.

      Now, I'll readily admit that that might work out a tad cheaper than the typical $15/month subscription, its a bit naive to claim that the game is completely free to keep playing. They've just shifted their revenue model a bit.

      That's the trick here (and with all things): there really is no free lunch. Companies are merely developing psychological tricks to make the customers FEEL like they're spending less, but in reality the company is bringing in MORE money that way, otherwise they wouldn't pursue it.

      Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you - its just that personally I'm more comfortable with a $15/month game where everyone is on equal footing versus a game where I can play for free but suck, or spend $100/month or more to stay competitive. I only have time to really play one MMORPG at a time anyways, so its not as if the $15/month for one game at a time is hurting any.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    29. Re:Free2play in games... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 2

      It has been for years. It's basically trial. Not sure what they name it now, but trial was always up to level 20 too.

      The difference is that now the amount of time you can take to reach level 20 is unlimited rather than 14 days.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    30. Re:Free2play in games... by Baloroth · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And then you have something like TF2, which not only quintupled it's player base by going free-to-play, but has a conversion rate of free players buying items of 20-30%. Lesson? Make your game fun and make the premium content a) worthwhile but b) not absolutely necessary to play the game, and you can make a lot of money. This makes for an interesting read (like how they found highly advertised 75% off sales increased revenue by 40x for Counter-Strike).

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    31. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It goes even further than that. It's the basic concept of "you gotta invest to profit", and it's been around for (literally) ages.

    32. Re:Free2play in games... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 4, Informative

      On top of that Valve has had huge success by making Team Fortress 2 free. The best thing about TF2 is that it doesn't even feel like they're trying to cash you. You can get everything in the game, but the game is so good that I have happily spend some cash on the store too. On top of that they have created such a good in-game economy that people are spending time on trading inside it and cashing out. And just to say it again - all of this without making the game worse or anyone feeling like they need to buy something from the store, because you can get everything via game, trading or crafting too. And the vanilla weapons are often better than the unlockable ones!

      Actually, F2P users can't get hats unless they're promotional hats they get from purchasing another game. You're also limited to a 50 item inventory (not counting the 27 stock items).

      Your inventory will increase to the standard 300 items once you buy a single items from the in-game store. Meaning that buying a $0.49 weapon or $0.99 class starter pack, then spending the other $4.00-$4.50 (Steam Wallet makes you add $5 minimum) on another Steam game.

      Note: The amounts are different in other currencies.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    33. Re:Free2play in games... by DCTech · · Score: 1

      Oh, another thing also, now that I think of it. It allows multiboxing your characters up to level 20 easily. Multiboxing makes WoW a lot more fun, especially if done with shamans as they can both tank and heal. I should try that again actually :)

    34. Re:Free2play in games... by fedos · · Score: 2

      Actually, the few times that I've actually purchased in-game content for a freemium game I spent more time thinking about whether I really wanted to make the $5 purchase than I have for some $50 games.

    35. Re:Free2play in games... by chrb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OpenSource works for some, eg Redhat, but on the whole Open Source is devastating the software development and sell model.

      Name a single software company that has been "devastated" by Open Source? As opposed to, say, failing to adapt their business model to a changing world, and increased competition from others? I can see the argument that companies like Sun lost out to Linux in the operating system market, but Sun was a hardware vendor (same with all of the Unix vendors really). There is an important difference between "competing in the market" and being "devastated". Competition is a reality, and perhaps these companies would've fared just as bad against a non-open source competitor?

      Since 2000 the wages of the software industry as a developer have been driven down due to Open Source, and due to out sourcing.

      You are cherry picking the single data point with the highest salary - the 2000 was the peak of the .com bubble, and y2k migration projects. Open source didn't cause the .com bubble/crash or y2k migration issues. Correlation is not causation - maybe the rise in open source usage was driven by companies looking for savings following the crash, rather than the crash being caused by open source, or perhaps there were more important factors at play?

    36. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It is just that Software has become a winner take all model."

      If anything, this is the exact opposite of freemium and open source. This is what proprietary software looks like. Look at Microsoft's market share. Compare this to (free to use) search engines where Google has competitors that they do in fact have to worry about to a much greater degree. In effect, to compete they must provide for a better product.

      In fact, this is what happens with the proprietary model. The winner, those who receive a government established monopoly on something (ie: take any of the many government established monopolies, like cableco monopolies and broadcasting monopolies and taxi cab monopolies) take all and competitors hardly exist. At least open sources offers some competition.

    37. Re:Free2play in games... by DarkTempes · · Score: 1

      but on the whole Open Source is devastating the software development and sell model.

      I'm not sure I agree with that at all. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.

      My gut tells me that an Open Source-only developer will probably make (much) less money than his proprietary counterpart, but devastating the software development and sell model?
      If anything Open Source enables better products, larger markets, and more profits for proprietary corporations.
      Look at cell phones, android, pretty much any apple product, any DVR, your popular web browsers, almost all of the modern web technologies.

      I would posit that a proprietary developer that spends some of his time working (related or not related to his normal work) on Free software is helping increase his pay by making his industry and/or company more successful in the long run.

    38. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At the end I summed it up and we all agreed, the software developer will not make the same amount of money as they had until the 2000 crash. I stand by the statement and it was true. Since 2000 the wages of the software industry as a developer have been driven down due to Open Source, and due to out sourcing.

      Then you summed it up to people as ignorant as you regarding the situation. If wages have been driven down, it's because of the explosive growth in the available "talent" be it China/India/etc.. or home grown "I read a book so I'm a programmer now" types. Open Source has had nothing to do with it on the whole. I will agree that there many be a few companies that had their legs cut out from under them by OSS, but not enough to have a significant impact on the industry as a whole.

      Where I have seen wages go down is those areas where cheap labor is applicable (e.g. code monkeys). If you (proverbial) are a 'developer' that is just tweaking templates in a CMS, then yes your salary is likely (and should be IMHO) low because anyone with a minimum of knowledge on the subject can do it. There are, however, plenty of good 6 figure jobs out there for those that have the talent and experience to command the higher salaries and responsibilities.

    39. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Zynga's current price, optimistically, puts them at $100 million USD annual revenue (being generous and assuming they're only at a 20x mult). How much of that is actually PROFIT is undisclosed, of course. EA, on the other hand, had net revenue of close to $800 million, and had one of the biggest launches in their history (SW:TOR). The Valve comments are entirely accurate, and frankly, more relevant. Zynga will be "valued higher than EA", right up until their first quarterly report. You did see that they've already lost 10% of their share price since IPO? Yup.. they're better than sliced bread.

      The premise of this whole article is entirely stupid. As someone stated, a guy hosting PDF's is not the same thing as Farmville or the Sims Social. But if you're going to pontificate like experts on the marketplace, at least spend two seconds to look at what public available information is out there.

      Freemium has great long term potential, but if you think Zynga is currently winning it, you're not paying attention. They'll be successful, but not due to any great revolutionary model that they came up with. The cult of Pincus just does a great job of making themselves sound like they're taking over the gaming world.

    40. Re:Free2play in games... by nine-times · · Score: 2

      If you read through the comments on his blog you find that he eventually admits that nearly 100% of his paying customers tried the free version before paying, thus the first part of his premise is wrong. Most people who tried the free service didn't pay him, but enough did that he was considering keeping the site going as a pay only site.

      Like you say, this sounds like is kind of did work as intended. He snagged enough paying customers with "free" that the paying customers would possibly make a working customer base.

      But here's where I think a lot of people go wrong in thinking about these things: They create a "free" thing, note that lots of people take the "free" thing, but nobody pays. They conclude from this that people like their product, but won't pay *because* they have the free version.

      The truth is more complicated. People may like the free version, but the free version offers them everything they like and the premium version isn't a meaningful upgrade. In this case, redo your marketing. Find a way to make the premium version more compelling.

      Another possibility is that people tried your product, liked it, but didn't like it enough to pay or to be harassed by follow-up emails. Yet another possibility is that they tried it and didn't actually like it. In either case, your product isn't good enough to support a business. Whoops!

    41. Re:Free2play in games... by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Come on get real here...

      The freemium model is a sucky model. It does not mean that freemium can't work for some.

      If it works for some, then by definition it's not a sucky model. It's just not a magic bullet that works in every circumstance.

      Just like how OpenSource works for some, eg Redhat, but on the whole Open Source is devastating the software development and sell model.

      Because the wellbeing of the software-as-a-saleable-item market is not a success criterion for Open Source.

      If my refrigerator manufacture business is a disaster for your "importing ice from the Arctic" business, that doesn't mean that mine is a sucky business model.

    42. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ACtually the y2k was THE greatest uplift in non executive technical workers salarys since the computing age began. Afterwards you can see that itwas a bit overblown, but then IBM, Microsoft and all the consultancy companys know a great Bandwagon when they see it.

    43. Re:Free2play in games... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Funny

      I am nearly certain that you just wrote something in English. Nearly.

    44. Re:Free2play in games... by jawtheshark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Analogies about sex and marriage might be seen as in bad taste, but the same principle applies:

      Not married, I wager? Sex after getting married? What have you been smoking? :-P

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    45. Re:Free2play in games... by SerpentMage · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ok I will play ball...

      We used to have Sybase, but not much of that company exists today. Then we had Silicon Graphics, and not much of that company exists today. Then we had Borland that went away with all of its products. How about Eudora? The list goes on...

      Now you might say, "but oh oh these companies had bad business models". Not so quick. In a software industry there is always room for a certain number of players. The problem with open source is that it cuts down the number of competitors to winner takes all. So in the database arena we have a couple of big players, and the open source players. There are no more smaller binary only software vendors. Take a look at IDE's. Same thing there. Remember Eclipse USED to be a for pay product, and then it was open sourced.

      Dude, I started out in the IT industry as a profession in 92 after my engineering degree. I have been active in the software industry since the Commodore Pet. Until 2000 there was what I would call a vibrant shareware, second tier software industry. Sure you had the big players, but there were plenty of little players around. Now no more.

      I actually would agree with you that companies partially drove to Open Source to save costs. It was because software developers cost too much, which is pointing out the obvious. BUT it does not detract from my point that you can't make money like you used to as a software developer. The days of becoming another Bill Gates are gone. Remember that the Facebook guy is not selling software. This is MY ENTIRE point... He is making money not by selling software, but using software to sell something else. This is a very important distinction...

      I am not cherry picking the highest salary of 2000 as the dotcom bubble bursting. Remember that at the time there was a life outside of silicon valley. And I would argue that in silicon valley you made peanuts because you received stock grants. It was outside the valley where you made real cash. I remember I used to be able to charge 150 USD per hour, and I had friends that were Oracle large database consultants that were pulling in about 400 to 500 K in CASH... Now you would be lucky if you can pull in about 100K.

      I never implied that Open Source caused the bubble crash! I said that with the rise of Open Source which started after the bubble crash wages and the software industry changed fundamentally. I am not saying it is good, nor bad. IT IS what IT IS.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    46. Re:Free2play in games... by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      The average intellectual power of random MODERN DAY WoW players is shit. When the game launched with the original 350,000 the playerbase was incredibly fun and smart. Sure there were jackholes, but we had quite a few tools to keep them in line. Those tools are now gone.

      --
      Good-bye
    47. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but really, with only weapons (i.e. no hats or misc items), how many inventory slots is someone going to use? Sure, there's more than 50 unique weapons in the game (even not counting simple reskins like the Holy Mackerel and the Scottish Handshake), but if you've been playing enough to amass that many, chances are you've settled into a set of weapons or two for each class and can safely start tossing away weapons when your inventory gets full.

      It's almost like Valve was preemptively apologizing for going F2P.

    48. Re:Free2play in games... by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      Ok so you have this open source project that is REALLY popular, woopee... I need to eat, live and sleep. If you look at those making money with Open Source I stand by my point it is a winner take all model. There are only a few who can actually make a living with Open Source.

      Why are you introducing governments? I am talking about software? Open Source does not really offer any competition at all. I remember attending a very good session by a lawyer at an O'Reilly conference. He talked from the perspective of competition and took away the open source part. In that perspective there was as much of a monopoly in the individual markets as if it were a binary only world. However we don't view it as such because most of these products are open source and hence we don't see them as threatening.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    49. Re:Free2play in games... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      but on the whole Open Source is devastating the software development and sell model

      True, but that doesn't really matter to most programmers because this model has never been responsible for employing more than 10% of software developers. The vast majority are employed working on in-house software, or software paid for by the customer directly. Open source fits perfectly into this model - indeed, most of it always was Free Software, as the customer received all of the rights to the code.

      I remember nearly a decade ago I was at SD hosting a BOF on the impact of Open Source. We danced for hours around the issue and it was a very good BOF. At the end I summed it up and we all agreed, the software developer will not make the same amount of money as they had

      Why would that be the case? Businesses still have problems that can only be solved by writing software. Whether that is written from scratch, or built using some existing components doesn't matter much to them, except in how much it costs. If it costs less due to open source then it means that they have more budget to spend on less vital things.

      If the entire COTS market for software vanished overnight, it would have very little impact on most software developers.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    50. Re:Free2play in games... by SerpentMage · · Score: 1

      Really? Ok tell that to the database, operating system, and IDE vendors? You don't see much competition and don't see much improved margins in that.

      Oracle makes money not by selling databases, but selling services around their databases. IBM makes their money not by selling the software, but the services around their product. It is only Microsoft that is stupid and keeps thinking they keep on selling software.

      I am saying it is devastating the software development and sell model because there is no money in that market anymore. You have to use software to sell something else. It is a means to greater profits. Not saying it is good, nor bad. Just saying as it is.

      Remember I sit here on a Linux box, using Mono as my development environment to write algo code to make money in the stock market. I am not complaining here!!! But there is no way in HECK that I would decide to create trading software and sell it.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    51. Re:Free2play in games... by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, the vast majority of software developers are idealists in the sense. A kind of martyr for efficiency and 'freedom'.

      I've had discussions as well as the arguments they put forth in support of open source are always about innovation or efficiency...

      Which as I say is just unique in industries. A discussion on working models for any other trade/profession always rests on how can 'we in the industry' keep money in our industry.

      In Ontario, it's been a battle just to get doctors to sop fighting nurses being able to give vaccinations.
      Every industry protects its people to make sure it is a viable career choice and that money stays in the industry and costs don't go to zero.

      Efficiency and innovation are great goals too. Let's not discount them by any means. However it would be nice if things like
      -making a living
      -making our profession a good career choice
      -training the next generation
      -quality of the product
      -quality of life ...

      began entering the equation. It does for every other profession/trade.

    52. Re:Free2play in games... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Hmm, seems to me, as a casual gamer, the hard core original WoWers are just as annoying. Because I can't devote 30 hours a week to raiding doesn't mean I'm a shit player--it means I have a life. Treating us as such is what drove most of us away.

      Annoying kiddies are exactly that, annoying, but you hard core guys who think we casual people have no right to be on the same server was even more annoying.

      (disclaimer: I don't mean YOU per se, since I don't know you).

    53. Re:Free2play in games... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      No, it was the lack of quality in the second tier/ shareware market that drove opensource. I can't even count how many times was I and my company burned by Shitacular software that we bought because it was less than the market leader. Not to mention all of the times where we bought something that almost worked but was just ever-so-slightly off. With open source, we can fix that stuff up while it costs nothing to preview all of the features.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    54. Re:Free2play in games... by GofG · · Score: 1

      Only a few people make a living off of open source?

      A fortune 500 company I am familiar with, NetApp, has over 300 employees on the payroll whose job is to contribute *good* code to the open source projects which NetApp uses. I would assume many many companies do the same thing.

      --
      GFA/M/S d-- s: a--- C++++ UBL++$ P+ L+++ !E- W++ N+ !o K- w--- !O !M !V PS++ PE Y+ PGP+ t+++ 5- X+ R tv@ b++ DI++++ D+ G
    55. Re:Free2play in games... by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Dont take this the wrong way but for vanilla wow, if you couldnt put in 30 hours of raiding, you WERE a shit player. Not through lack of trying or lack of skill but flat out the time requirements to raid were huge. Consumables and resistance gear farming took up massive amounts of time above and beyond the raid schedule. Sure there were elitists, but alot of that was from the game design itself being so time consuming. This is truly a case of 'dont hate the player, hate the game'.

      --
      Good-bye
    56. Re:Free2play in games... by unimacs · · Score: 1

      We danced for hours around the issue and it was a very good BOF. At the end I summed it up and we all agreed, the software developer will not make the same amount of money as they had until the 2000 crash. I stand by the statement and it was true. Since 2000 the wages of the software industry as a developer have been driven down due to Open Source, and due to out sourcing.

      There were lots of factors driving up compensation for software developers prior to 2000 including the Y2K bug and the dot com bubble. That simply wasn't going to last.

      I agree that outsourcing has had an impact but to me it's much harder to determine how open source has affected wages. I suspect it's not really that much of a factor relative to other things like the general sluggishness of the economy.

    57. Re:Free2play in games... by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      F2P games have always been P2W.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    58. Re:Free2play in games... by AnonyMouseCowWard · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He didn't even say he didn't make enough money... in his comments section, he points out that most of his paying customers were free users first. That to me means freemium works, even for him.

      His biggest complaint about his whole experiment seems to be that his "free" users marked his mail as spam. However, one thing stands out: to use his site/service, you have to agree to a TOS, in which he mentions that he might send you mails. There is no opt-out button. That's worse than a sneaky default spam mail with a well-hidden opt-out checkbox... in his case, there is no such checkbox. You want to use his service? Then you agree to his spam. To me that means his service is not free, but hey, maybe I value my privacy more than a letter to Santa.

      I understand he put hours and money into creating and hosting his site, but that does not entitle him to believe his mail is important, especially when there is no option to opt-out in the first place... and the fact most of his paying customers were free users first points to the fact he's just whining for whining, and doesn't understand what "freemium" means.

    59. Re:Free2play in games... by Peristaltic · · Score: 3, Funny

      Uhhhh.... I think he -was- stating that sexual activity -does- decline after marriage for some. I'd like to say it's funny, but after 21 years of marriage, I FAIL TO SEE THE FUCKING HUMOR. Sorry. I've been a little on edge lately.

    60. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We used to have Sybase, but not much of that company exists today. Then we had Silicon Graphics, and not much of that company exists today. Then we had Borland that went away with all of its products. How about Eudora? The list goes on...

      Sybase did (are they still around?) have a crap business model and failed to keep up with the needs/wants of their customers. OSS had nothing to do with that as the main replacement for their big (Fed) contracts is Oracle who is decidedly NOT open.

      SGI, like Sysbase, failed to keep up with the times. They used to be the go to vender if you needed to do heavy video processing, but when PCs (specifically Macs at the time) started to catch up they failed to do something about it. Finally the main animation software vendor (I can't remember the name to save my life right now) bailed on them and wrote new versions of their software for Windows and OSX. So SGIs response was to try to get into the Webserver business which A) their hardware was never great at and B) it was already drying up as a market for the big hardware vendors as commodity hardware was coming into it's own. In this case it wasn't an issue of OSS (you could run Linux on SGI hosts after all and IIRC they even tried selling hosts preconfigured that way), it was an issue of a single $20k+ host being out performed by a $2k host and that you could get 10 of said $2k hosts for the cost of a single SGI (speaking in ~2000 terms when my group started ditching SGI gear).

      I don't know about Borland's business model and I did like their IDE when I started coding, but they were replaced by the MS IDE on the Windows platform (did they even have an IDE for Unix?). Again, not an OSS replacement.

      I liked Eudora and used it until about 2000, but if you look back at the end of their run users were screaming for features that more modern clients had. It was actually Eudora's failing state that gave rise to OSS options to fill the gap rather than Eudora failing due to existing OSS options. It was a hard pill to swallow when I had to switch to Outlook/Outlook Express to have a "better" client.

      I actually would agree with you that companies partially drove to Open Source to save costs. It was because software developers cost too much, which is pointing out the obvious.

      You're making the wrong leap there. Companies no longer going with the products/companies you listed didn't care about the cost of developers. They cared about the value they were getting for their money in both outright cost and feature set. None of the examples you gave were really harmed by OSS itself as all three were primarily (SGI was about the hardware, not the OS) replaced by other proprietary options.

    61. Re:Free2play in games... by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      multiboxing means having two (or more) WoW accounts playing simultaneously on different computers (or in the same computer if it's powerful enough).

      i just checked, apparently it's not against blizzard's EULA to do that.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    62. Re:Free2play in games... by kirillian · · Score: 1

      Assuming the paying customers stick around. GP is stating that he may or may not have even had those customers without the free-loaders.

    63. Re:Free2play in games... by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      Really? Ok tell that to the database, operating system, and IDE vendors?

      that's a small part of the software industry in terms of numbers of jobs. the few remaining player on those areas are raking the billions, of course, but how many people they actually employ writing code ?

      i bet for each programer working for those big players, there are ten working for small companies or as independent programers, writing custom code tied to the business models of their employers.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    64. Re:Free2play in games... by Synerg1y · · Score: 1

      Where a few make good decent money, but most struggle to make any money. I instead use Open Source to solve other problems. Makes things good for me though, but I am not creating base infrastructure software like I did in the 90's. It is what it is, and freemium is the same thing...

      Have you ever considered programmers are tiered?

      Also, guy in the article is dumber than nails (thus the simple site? :P), as a web admin you always get 5 figures worth of mail, most spam some is not. And why would anybody pay for something they can make in MS word (or openoffice)? I also doubt his site was unique in its service by a long shot. *shrug* some people w no understanding of marketing or dev skills speaking from underneath a rock imho.

      It's an ok model, can be easily abused though..

    65. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, you're blaming open source for the damage caused by the bubble crash.

    66. Re:Free2play in games... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      i just checked, apparently it's not against blizzard's EULA to do that.

      Of course it's not, provided there is no funny business going on with them. Multi-boxing is just more money in subscriptions for them, as you obviously need to have a unique account per logged in toon.

      I worked with a guy a few years ago that had six different accounts. He had written custom software to allow him to issue commands to each of his toons from a single U.I., so he was able to have all but one instance of WoW running in the background as it were. According to what he told me, as long as the commands being issued to a toon were issued by a human being, that was A-OK according to the ToS. Since he didn't automate anything (according to him) he was in the clear.

      He paid $60 a month in subscription fees, though, so obviously Blizzard was getting their end.

    67. Re:Free2play in games... by mvdwege · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All three examples you cite were killed by Microsoft, 2 directly, one indirectly. Open Source had nothing to do with it.

      Mart

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    68. Re:Free2play in games... by Olorion · · Score: 1

      The days of becoming another Bill Gates are gone.

      You can't become another Bill Gates or Larry Ellison because of Bill Gates and Larry Ellison -- not because of Open Source.

      You can''t pull in huge monopoly rents like Microsoft and Oracle, because if you start looking even remotely successful, these companies will eat you. But you can make a bit of money: notice that Red Hat, an open source company, earns a billion dollars a year.

    69. Re:Free2play in games... by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Guild Wars hardly was a "one-off" fee. Look at the rate at which they released *PAID* expansions.

      What, three of them in three years?

      Everquest released expansions more often than that, and they were pretty much compulsory for anyone who was in a guild.

    70. Re:Free2play in games... by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Name a single software company that has been "devastated" by Open Source? As opposed to, say, failing to adapt their business model to a changing world, and increased competition from others?

      What is the difference?

    71. Re:Free2play in games... by AngryDeuce · · Score: 1

      Of course, they've also been ramping up the amount of experience you get in the original starting areas due to the fact that the vast majority of their player-base is of higher level now and most people want to burn their way to cap as fast as possible to play with their friends in endgame content. Hell, don't the new classes start at like level 60 or something now?

      I haven't played WoW in many years (vanilla WoW, pre-expansion), but it's pretty common in MMO's to start trivializing older content so that players can speed through it as fast as possible to catch up to the majority of the player-base, otherwise they're going to be running around in a ghost town and just quit the game. Final Fantasy XI was like this within just a few years of launch, once the Treasures of Aht Urhgan expansion came out, the old areas and old content was immediately diminished to the point where new players could literally shout for days trying to get parties together to complete necessary missions and come up empty-handed. It was a big problem that S-E ignored for years in lieu of adding more and more endgame content for an extremely vocal minority of players that burned through it in days, and the end result is that new players would just quit after a few months out of frustration. It was greatly exacerbated by the fact that FFXI was designed to be a party-based game, but from what I've heard from friends that still play WoW, it's just as bad there, especially with raiding. People just do not do the older raids anymore, even in lowbie groups.

      Anyway, I went off on a tangent, but the point is, yes, you have an unlimited amount of time to get to 20. However, because of the adjustments, you're probably going to hit 20 in like a solid day of playing, unless you are deliberately trying not to level, at which point you have to wonder why the hell you are playing the game...

    72. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're* saying is their base of people paying money is increased by a maximum of 1.5x. So the important thing is are those 20-30% spending more or less than the cost of the game previously? They'd have to buy like 13-20 weapons @ $0.5 to make up for an original $10 purchase price.

      And in the same article, it notes that the typical conversion rate is 2-3% for freemium, so another interesting question is why is Valve's conversion rate so much higher? My guess it has to do with the $5 minimum credit in the store which adds

      * According to PCGamer, this info is from Newell.

    73. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe it was MS that eventually crushed Borland, not Open Source. Borland's competitor was Visual Studio on Windows, not GCC. And the VS developers always had an "inroad" to what was coming. On Windows I'd say MS had a lot more to do with the death and consolidation of competition - word processors, databases, IDEs, browsers, pick your poison - than Linux or BSD ever did.

      Silicon Graphics and Sun were probably legitimately hurt by Linux. . . and commodity PC hardware, and MS providing services that were traditionally the domain of UNIX shops. Same thing with IBM's AIX. For some things you needed the "big iron", but many people realized that if you throw a bunch of commodity boxes at things - especially for highly parallelable things like a website, and replace a component or even the whole box when there's a fault, that's cheaper than the system with the hot swappable CPUs, and there are more people who know these commodity systems than know the particular vendor's UNIX or mainframe solution. It was also galling, after a while, paying those huge premiums for a product that wasn't as nimble as the commodity hardware. Sure, it had more fault tolerance, but for many it was galling to spend top dollar without getting top performance.

      "Where are all the little players?" I don't know. Do you want to go with MS SQL, Oracle, MySQL, PostGreSQL, DBase, SQL Lite, etc., or some unkown / untested vendor's DB? Do you want to hire a group that can program and administer one of the "known quantity" databases, or go with somebody who's selling something that may not be supported in a few years? Do you want to go with that vendor that's charging what many have come to believe is an outrageous amount of money for their service contracts, or just setup shop with commodity hardware, or with a hosting company that has the commodity hardware?

    74. Re:Free2play in games... by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 1

      Can you give an example of one of these major companies making millions of dollars on Free2play games?

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
    75. Re:Free2play in games... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      . In a software industry there is always room for a certain number of players. The problem with open source is that it cuts down the number of competitors to winner takes all. So in the database arena we have a couple of big players, and the open source players. There are no more smaller binary only software vendors.

      This is not a problem with open source software. This is progress towards the explicit goal of open source software. Eventually, there will be no binary only software vendors at all.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    76. Re:Free2play in games... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The freemium model is a sucky model. It does not mean that freemium can't work for some.

      Didnt DDO and LOTRO both go free2play, and then immediately have increased revenues? Isnt League of Legends F2P, and a pretty big success?

    77. Re:Free2play in games... by jawtheshark · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know what you mean... Oh, you know the old joke, eh?

      Little Johnny and his dad are at the pharmacy, and Johnny sees a packet of 3 condoms and asks dad what it's for. Dad replies that it's for high school kids, one for Friday, one for Saturday and one for Sunday. Johnny seems pleased and notices the box next to it, containing 6 condoms and again he asks dad. Dad calmly explains that it's for college students, one for each day of the week, except Sunday where they go home for dinner at moms. Johnny looks pleased and asks dad about the third package with a full dozen of condoms in them. With a deep sight, dad states it's for married men... one for January, one for February....

      In every joke, there is a grain of truth. *deep sigh*

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    78. Re:Free2play in games... by mounthood · · Score: 1

      Even worse, Tyler Nichols contradicts his own argument. If you read through the comments on his blog you find that he eventually admits that nearly 100% of his paying customers tried the free version before paying, thus the first part of his premise is wrong. ... His biggest problem seems to be that his unsolicited marketing email was marked as spam (because it is spam).

      So.. use FREE to get paying customers, then SPAM and RANT to get PUBLICITY and justify dropping FREE. The rant doesn't have to make any sense. It's just an unreasonable demand for attention, like the spam.

      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    79. Re:Free2play in games... by Ossifer · · Score: 2

      Sort of... It's not that these guys have some control over the rest of the market, it's that these guys were there when the market was *created*... The first to cash in on new markets usually become stinkin' rich -- this has happened time and time again (oil, trains, gold rush, etc.) -- and those that come after don't...

    80. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I know MS still owns the majority of the operating system market (outside of phones - but there it's Google who are still making money on their product, just in a different way). Databases and IDEs it's more understandable - very little revolutionary has happened in either space for a long time, that stagnation has given free open source projects a chance to become as good as paid for proprietary products. That's as it should be in my book - nobody has a god given right to invent one thing and then profit from it forever, if you want to keep making money, keep innovating, use the money you made to stay ahead. If we followed your ideal we'd all still be buying fire from the first guy who figured out how to make it by rubbing two sticks together.

    81. Re:Free2play in games... by mr_gorkajuice · · Score: 1

      So you say. However, you'd quickly realize that at the heart of the persistant online world lies a shit game, and then you'd stop playing again.

    82. Re:Free2play in games... by shentino · · Score: 1

      If they're going to throw their money away anyhow, better into my pockets than someone else's.

    83. Re:Free2play in games... by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I meant to the extent you can be a good player, high level, and never raid. Not that I was a good raid player even though I didn't play much. I just don't do raids, because I don't have the time commitment.

    84. Re:Free2play in games... by delinear · · Score: 2

      He even solved his own problem of how to justify the cost by saying the free users were more demanding and take up more support time. Only offer support for the paying users and to everyone else make it clear that the product is offered "as is". That's been successful for a lot of open source porjects - supporting the world for free is a fool's errand, he could easily set up a support mail and whitelist those who have paid for the product and in one move both reduce his time spent and add an incentive for upgrading.

    85. Re:Free2play in games... by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 2

      I would say the energy and independence of small software developers that was present in 92 has migrated to the apps market.

      What's changed in the US is the chilling effect of software patents has had . Everyone is afraid to develop anything without a huge backer who will defend them if they get hit. And even then, the huge backers aren't interested in defending a small market like , say, flight planning software or toy trains.

    86. Re:Free2play in games... by pclminion · · Score: 4, Funny

      multiboxing means having two (or more) WoW accounts playing simultaneously on different computers (or in the same computer if it's powerful enough). i just checked, apparently it's not against blizzard's EULA to do that.

      Slow down there Sparky... Are you telling me that more than one person can play WoW at the same time? That it's... some kind of multi-player game? This changes things.

    87. Re:Free2play in games... by tokul · · Score: 1

      you missed 'multiplayer' part in F2P games. They are free to play as without free players games don't have critical player mass.

    88. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give away an $8 razor for $2.99 and sell the $0.02 blades for $0.25 each.

      - more like $2.50 each.

    89. Re:Free2play in games... by rujholla · · Score: 1

      No Kidding -- EQ1 was and still is releasing multiple expansions per year. Guild Wars one per year is not what I call annoying.

    90. Re:Free2play in games... by grumbel · · Score: 1

      I believe Zynga took in more money than EA this past year. And a couple years ago Zynga didn't even exist. EA has been scrambling to copy Zynga's freemium model.

      The problem with that business model is that it is not build around giving away a good product for free, but around a product that exploits human psychology and lack of knowledge to essentially turn every player into a human spambot for the company.

      And companies like IBM, Google, etc. make billions on the back of open source software.

      Google isn't making their money with Open Source software, by far most of their stuff is proprietary. And their free services are all full of advertisement. IBM isn't making money by giving away all their stuff for free either. So those aren't exactly freemium business models, but simply regular businesses which are rich enough to give a bit of their stuff away for free when it makes sense, but can keep everything proprietary when needed.

    91. Re:Free2play in games... by bkaul01 · · Score: 3, Informative

      And companies like IBM, Google, etc. make billions on the back of open source software. But clearly you're right that this is the exception and can only work in a handful of cases. They must only succeed out of dumb luck, because the model itself can't possibly make any sense. Companies like Google don't know what they're doing.

      Google makes its money selling advertising; the software just gets eyeballs to the ads. IBM makes its money selling servers, supercomputers, infrastructure services, microchip designs, etc., not selling software to end users. Do they use open-source software? Sure. But open-source software isn't their product, as such. It's not what people are paying them for.

    92. Re:Free2play in games... by Niomosy · · Score: 1

      Oh, another thing also, now that I think of it. It allows multiboxing your characters up to level 20 easily. Multiboxing makes WoW a lot more fun, especially if done with shamans as they can both tank and heal. I should try that again actually :)

      If, by Shaman, you mean Druids and Paladins, I agree. Shaman have two dps specs (one melee, one caster) and a healing spec. Druids have two dps specs (one caster, one melee), a tank spec, and a healer spec. Paladins have a tank spec, melee dps spec, and healing spec.

      A Shaman might get away with tanking some things by going with a 1h and shield, but they aren't a tanking class.

    93. Re:Free2play in games... by studog-slashdot · · Score: 1

      We used to have Sybase, but not much of that company exists today. Then we had Silicon Graphics, and not much of that company exists today. Then we had Borland that went away with all of its products. How about Eudora? The list goes on...

      Sybase did (are they still around?)

      Rumours of Sybase's not-much-edness have been greatly exaggerated. Several of my friends work for Sybase. They're just fine.

    94. Re:Free2play in games... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how one figuires the cost of a razor is $8. It's a stamped piece of metal and plastic. Probably costs about $0.25 to make. Blades require much more precision than the actual handle. Granted, you are probably still getting ripped off, but I don't think you are getting any less ripped off on the handle than on the blades. Also, which blades only cost $0.25? Mach 3 blades are at least $2.50 a piece, while the cheapest "doesn't tear my face apart" razor I could find was $1.37 each. Actually I found those are quite good value for the money, and actually last quite a while. Gillette Fusion blades cost about $3.70 each.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    95. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The lack of hats is obviously a "pay to win" scheme, a cool^Wstupid hat is essential to boosting your skill.

      50 items should be plenty of inventory if you don't plan on hoarding the item drops infinitely.

    96. Re:Free2play in games... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I've seen sort of the behavior described in Lord of the Rings online; premium game but with a free option. Some free players upon discovering that after a certain level that they must purchase or earn quest packs will say "what a rip off!" It's absurd; they can play for free even all the way to max level but if they can't get the same content as easily as a paying player the complaints start.

    97. Re:Free2play in games... by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      He is correct, i can talk about experience here :)
      However, where freemium works is bringing publicity, and via publicity you gather also paying customers.
      The freemium lookers have only a tiny fraction are going to purchase, but they will link you, tell their friends etc. so they bring in customers indirectly.

      and they are vastly more demanding, will ignore the rules, expect special treatment, and if you can give them something free, everything should be free or next to free.

    98. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "He even solved his own problem of how to justify the cost by saying the free users were more demanding and take up more support time."

      He failed at understanding his own data. He said 20 paying users and "lots" of free users needed support. That stands to reason if only a small portion of his users became paying users. What percentage of paid users needed support? What percentage of unpaid users? I'd bet the percentages are pretty close to equal and all of his assumptions are wrong.

    99. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just haven't heard Sybase mentioned at all in the last 5 years (Informix either) or so and all the old Sybase shops I knew had moved to Oracle so I just had no idea if they were still kicking around anymore. Don't get me wrong, I always preferred them over Oracle as I thought they were a good stable DB (kinda the HP-UX of DBMSs). They just stagnated in the early days of OO DBs (Oracle unfortunately was the main game in town) and massive scale/speed (Informix made everyone else look like chumps at the time).

      Sybase had the programmers to make a solid reliable system. Informix had the programmers to make an extremely fast DBMS (at least until they bailed and went to Tandem). And Oracle had an incredible marketing department that could convince you that either they were all of that or that you didn't need it to begin with.

    100. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > .. why would you go and shoot yourself in the foot by turning away 90% (or probably more) of your potential users by requiring payment up front?

      My guess would be "to reduce my *effective* costs by 90%".

      There is a point, at the very beginning, where the minimum infrastructure you need to have a product, any product at all, exceeds the number of your customers. Say you have to have at least 1 server and it supports 100 xacts/sec, so to serve 1 or 100 customers it's exactly the same for you from the cost perspective. If out of those 100 only 10 pay you can afford, indeed, to give service for free to another 90 without hurting yourself in the process.

      BUT ... As the number of customers increases, you reach a point in which your costs increase AT LEAST linearly. Be it your hardware, technical support, customer service, etc., you will have a bottleneck that prevents you from having more customers unless you SPEND more money, and if that expenditure is not compensated by increased revenue then clearly you're in the hole. One strategy that has been tried for a while now is to "fire your customers": if you had a way to know which of your free customers are NEVER going to pay you, no matter how good your service, then "incentivizing" those and only those customers to leave your site would actually improve your profit by reducing your costs (or by increasing potential revenue by trading "bad" customers for potentially good ones). Obviously charging *some* amount up front is an excellent way to weed out those customers who would never pay ... If the percentage of those who wouldn't pay is really 90% then it's much more useful to you to know that the first day you open your business, when your cash reserves are intact, that on the hundredth day when they are depleated.

      The problem is, of course, that by charging some amount up front you might be weeding out not only those who would never pay, but also some that might pay down the line but are not ready to do it from day 1. It's a tricky balance, and no one has a really sound model on how to do it, but coming back to your point: it makes a lot of sense to reduce you customer base to only 10% of its potential size, as long as it is the RIGHT 10%!

    101. Re:Free2play in games... by JustSomeProgrammer · · Score: 1

      In the scale of the number of employees employed by fortune 500 companies I would say that 300 is few.

    102. Re:Free2play in games... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2

      The problem with open source is that it cuts down the number of competitors to winner takes all.

      This was always the case with the software industry. Always. Entrenched monopolies in a field are impossible to remove. The industry has only ever gotten around this by creating entirely new fields out of nothing and continuing the cycle from there.

      Until 2000 there was what I would call a vibrant shareware, second tier software industry.

      Oh god. Those horrible little fly by night operations? The companies that would try to charge you $5-$10 for screen-savers, or excel addons, or smiliy icons, or mp3 converters. I'm personally glad I never have to deal with such two-bit con men ever again. Uhhh.

      We now live in an age where most fundamental software is free as in beer and developers can focus on making actually useful and innovative end user applications instead of repackaging GNU software in a windows GUI and selling it to computer illiterate people. Open source made the power of computers accessible to end users without them having to be nickel and dimed for every mouse click. If that means cowboys and fleecers can no longer operate in the software industry, I weep no tears for them.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    103. Re:Free2play in games... by galatian · · Score: 1

      Slow down there Sparky... Are you telling me that more than one person can play WoW at the same time? That it's... some kind of multi-player game? This changes things.

      No, he's saying that more than one WoW game can play on a single player at once. Like some kind of multi-game player.

    104. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the blog post:

        "I have an opt-out link on that policy page, and I included one in the email I sent right at the top, at the bottom and in the body of the email."

    105. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> How about Eudora?

      I still use Eudora you insensitive clod!

    106. Re:Free2play in games... by mapsjanhere · · Score: 1

      Actually EQ cut back to one expansion a year some years back - they just switched to a "must do all the group quests and then get to raid" scheme to keep you busy.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    107. Re:Free2play in games... by Alphadecay27 · · Score: 1

      multiboxing means having two (or more) WoW accounts playing simultaneously on different computers (or in the same computer if it's powerful enough). i just checked, apparently it's not against blizzard's EULA to do that.

      Slow down there Sparky... Are you telling me that more than one person can play WoW at the same time? That it's... some kind of multi-player game? This changes things.

      No. He's saying a single player can have multiple accounts/simultaneously active characters. People often do this to avoid the multi-player aspect of the game. It allows them to run content a single player can't handle without having to group with anyone.

    108. Re:Free2play in games... by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      I am nearly certain that you just wrote something in English. Nearly.

      I recognized it as English too... perhaps American, as far as what was conveyed? It is vexed.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    109. Re:Free2play in games... by grumbel · · Score: 2

      And then you have something like TF2...

      The problem with examples like this is that the game already had a regular successful commercial run four years ago. It already made it's money back long before it went free to play. Same is true for many MMORPGs, they only went free-to-play after they stopped making money via regular subscriptions and as a MMORPG needs players to function, free-to-play is simply an alternative to revitalize it for a little more before it's completely dead.

    110. Re:Free2play in games... by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Anyway, I went off on a tangent, but the point is, yes, you have an unlimited amount of time to get to 20. However, because of the adjustments, you're probably going to hit 20 in like a solid day of playing, unless you are deliberately trying not to level, at which point you have to wonder why the hell you are playing the game...

      I find this very satisfactory to keep one of my neighbor's adhd kid
      enthused forever, lol. They lose money with that kid =)

      Although, I had to help them bump the vid card to 21st century specs, lol.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    111. Re:Free2play in games... by Baloroth · · Score: 2

      LOTR online made shit-tons after it went F2P and was (as I understand it) on the brink of failing before that. Regardless, F2P games need constant development after they go F2P to produce more money, and that development is not free. And many can succeed never being pay-to-play (League of Legends, for example). It works as a model, developers just need to learn to do it properly.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    112. Re:Free2play in games... by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      It's because of that winner takes all model that opensource and freemium make sense. If you know you're not gonna make it to the billions, why not open source it and make money on related services ? That's much smaller revenue, but better than none. Do you think Red Hat could have gotten to where they're at now with a closed OS ? cf Novell ?

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    113. Re:Free2play in games... by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 1

      Oh god. Those horrible little fly by night operations? The companies that would try to charge you $5-$10 for screen-savers, or excel addons, or smiliy icons, or mp3 converters. I'm personally glad I never have to deal with such two-bit con men ever again.

      Yeah, thank god there aren't any fly-by-nite companies with no real presence that charge $5 for screensavers:
      https://market.android.com/details?id=airborne.nflwp_nomarket&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImFpcmJvcm5lLm5mbHdwX25vbWFya2V0Il0.

      or $10 for Office addons:
      https://market.android.com/details?id=com.mobisystems.editor.office_registered&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5tb2Jpc3lzdGVtcy5lZGl0b3Iub2ZmaWNlX3JlZ2lzdGVyZWQiXQ..

      or icons:
      https://market.android.com/details?id=com.droidicon.launcherproicons&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5kcm9pZGljb24ubGF1bmNoZXJwcm9pY29ucyJd

      et al

      yeah... thank fucking god for that...

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    114. Re:Free2play in games... by obarthelemy · · Score: 1

      Now I get it !

      --
      The Cloud - because you don't care if your apps and data are up in the air.
    115. Re:Free2play in games... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      the ability to pick and chose what they want based on itemized cost.

      That's funny.. EasyJet's system is almost a freemium model in the real world. (If people really can get the [pounds symbol that slashdot can't produce properly] 5 tickets.)

    116. Re:Free2play in games... by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      almost worked but was just ever-so-slightly off.

      That sounds like a lot of open source software out there.

      With open source, we can fix that stuff up while it costs nothing to preview all of the features.

      Yes, you can.. but do you? Seems like even the most ardent supporters of the OpenOffice types of suites often say they aren't really up to business-level day to day use. (Or Gimp, etc..)

    117. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with Freemium is that your support costs are OPTIONAL.

      I'll take the last game I played as an example. This game has rampant cheating, and the company recently IPO'd in Korea. Their stock plummeted.

      Zynga has the same problems, but I don't play their games, I'm just aware of it because I read the S1.

      Keep in mind Koreans take their gaming VEEERY seriously. Enough to get jailtime or neglect their babies. (Totally serious)

      The most I've heard about farmville and such is that people are too busy playing it while they should be doing business/politics.

      The Freemium model is eroded by cheating/gold-farming type activity which in turn makes less people want to pay for anything because nothing is done about cheating. It's a slippery slope, when the company doesn't commit enough resources to stopping cheating (freemium games never permanently ban or delete cheaters)

      Why would anyone want to play a "free" game that you can only play by paying to stay ahead of the cheaters? This business model is broken.

      This is ultimately why game developers need to take a three-prong approach to attract and keep gamers:
      1. OPEN BETA - I'd say SWTOR was successful here. When releasing a new game, make sure people like the game in it's state, otherwise you end up with FFXIV which forgo an entire year, had terrible performance right at release, and endless complaints. No finalization/release-date should be announced until the complaints about performance and hackability are ironed out.
      2. Free Zone - For those willing to download the entire game, but not wanting to pay for it on disc. Allow anyone to play within a "demo" type area with no limitations (in MMORPG's a level limit should be imposed naturally, eg no monsters in the area would give experience after level 20.) The free area should be the only area that is over-provisioned.
      3. Pay Upgrades - Each "new" chapter/episode should involve some kind of upgrade cost, both in play area and play experience. For example, chapter 1/free is X continent and the monsters are a challenge up till level 20. Chapter 2 is 5$ and opens another area up to level 30. One new chapter per month works out to a monthly subscription fee of 5$, but since there is no pressure to buy the next chapter, players can buy it when they want to, instead of paying 5$/mo to essentially do nothing.

      This solves the "gold farming" cheats problem by virtue of the exploitable areas not being in the free area. Some users may pay to get their bots into these areas, but because the level gap is smaller between episodes, it becomes much less farmable.

      Now what we want to do, is only force the player to pay if they are attempting to play the game solo...

      Now this opens one other problem, which is mutually exclusive to preventing the gold farming problem, by making the extended areas of the game not available from the start, players who don't want to pay to play, can't get into these areas either. This is where we put out an olive branch for friends. If a player is in a party (or guild) with a player that has paid for that area, then they can participate. What we do here is make a pay upgrade for the guild system (5$ to start the guild and 2$ per capacity upgrade (to prevent shill players)) To add players to the guild, either the Guild has to be "Leader" or "Voting", where a "Leader" mode lets just the leader decide who to add/drop, and shows which zones have been paid for by applicants. Voting mode instead is secret vote by unanimous expiry, where users who have paid zones can vote to drop applicants or existing members that are unwelcome. A tax rate is set that goes into the guild treasury. So any loot collected can either "keep, donate to guild, destroy", where donate to guild lets other guild members call dibs or buy from the guild treasury.

      To prevent farming bots from joining a guild only to get into high level areas and acting as shill players for the guild, any players added must be sponsored by an existing guild member, and anyone kicked out

    118. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the freemium model sigh...every real gamer i've met hates the freemium model. the massive influx of smartphones and tablets make freemium games playable by people who would drop dead before they bought a console/gaming pc. there went from being about 60 million gamers to their being 200 million all crammed down people's throats by cellphone pushers.

    119. Re:Free2play in games... by wraith808 · · Score: 1

      No... Borland wasn't killed directly or indirectly by Microsoft. Borland shot itself in the head in a very public and expensive act of suicide.

    120. Re:Free2play in games... by Bonobo_Unknown · · Score: 1

      Interesting theory - but you don't take into account the changing scales of software production. 30 years ago a couple of people in a basement could turn out a hot game, make a bunch of money and start a company. The resources required to make a top tier product have been growing to the point where in many cases small companies just can't enter the same marketplace as bigger ones.

      --
      We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
    121. Re:Free2play in games... by mjwx · · Score: 2

      IBM makes its money selling servers, supercomputers, infrastructure services, microchip designs, etc., not selling software to end users.

      Spoken like a man who's never licensed AIX.

      Companies like IBM support Open Source because their customers demand it. IBM can prevent Linux from running on their System X and System P's forcing customers to license AIX or Windows but it would be suicide for the System P's and near suicide for the System X line. Even Microsoft has to support FOSS programs in Windows, why, because MS's customers demand it.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    122. Re:Free2play in games... by bkaul01 · · Score: 1

      Sure, IBM has its own Unix OS. My point, though, is that IBM's main business line isn't selling open source software. They may support it, and might even use it in some products, but the main item of value they're selling/being paid for isn't Open Source Software; that's a side issue that they can leverage in order to improve sales of their main products, but isn't the product itself, and isn't the primary driver of revenue for the company. Same with Google: they may open-source some of their software, but it's irrelevant because that's not what they're selling anyway; they're leveraging it to improve/protect their advertising revenues.

    123. Re:Free2play in games... by meiao · · Score: 1

      I blame the brazilian horde of MMO invaders.

    124. Re:Free2play in games... by cynyr · · Score: 1

      hehe, a guy in my guild used to run 10 toons and "solo" 10 man raid content. In the end he was figuring out how to run 7 toons and have 3 real people join him.

      He was running all 10 screens visible, but all mostly very small expect for 1 or 2. He had software running to send the same keystrokes to each window, and some macros to assist the lead toon.

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    125. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, He is telling you one person can play multiple characters at the same time, using multiple free accounts. I don't understand how this relates to the story though.

    126. Re:Free2play in games... by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Yes, Yes I/We do. I've tweaked:

      The Linux kernel for specific changes to the TCP/IP Stack that we needed to work with some one else's brain dead equipment.
      Mysql to improve performance for our use case
      Eclipse to work around a specific bug with writing to Samba shares ( could have just found/ fixed it in Samba, but it was eaiser to distribute a working Eclipse internally than Samba)
      Kopete to deal with a less than perfectly relilable internet connection
      Several third party libraries to improve performance on x86_64.

      Earlier in my career:

      Ported Gnash to Dos.
      Ported Perl to ROM DOS.

      Open Office ( really the best version is LibreOffice now), is working just fine for my buisness. Of course, everyone's requirements are different, but I'm not sure what doesn't work for people as we apparently don't use that. The really disapointing part of the OO.org suite is ODF. I really wished they had done a better job designing that.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    127. Re:Free2play in games... by GofG · · Score: 1

      I'm not saying this isn't a few, I'm just saying that it's a career opportunity you might not have thought of if you didn't know about it, and it's related to open source. Large companies paying people to write good code for the open source things that they want to use. That's how linux gets developed nowadays.

      --
      GFA/M/S d-- s: a--- C++++ UBL++$ P+ L+++ !E- W++ N+ !o K- w--- !O !M !V PS++ PE Y+ PGP+ t+++ 5- X+ R tv@ b++ DI++++ D+ G
    128. Re:Free2play in games... by JustSomeProgrammer · · Score: 1

      nods agree it is a good thing. and I think there are opportunities with open source. Just didn't think it was the best rebuttal :)

    129. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe they're talking about a single person playing on two different accounts simultaneously, not more than one person playing WoW at the same time. So relax, it turns out it's not a multi-player game at all!

    130. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's referring to one person playing two accounts at the same time, the multiplayer part is implied.

    131. Re:Free2play in games... by sjames · · Score: 1

      Silicon Graphics drank the MS cool aid and died. But before that they pissed off all of their good engineers who then split to form Nvidia. Free software had nothing to do with the death of a once great hardware company, but it could have saved them had they had enough vision.

      Borland was a once great company that was already well on it's way to decrepitude before Free software made much splash in the PC world.

      Sybase is still alive and kicking, I don't know why you mentioned them.

    132. Re:Free2play in games... by mariasama16 · · Score: 1

      There's a quest out in Storm Peaks in WoW (one of the zones you can play in), where your character essentially multiboxes. You're given a set of 4 shaman that attack anything you do. Its quite fun. (Specific quest: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=13005).

    133. Re:Free2play in games... by Gibgezr · · Score: 1

      RIOT, makers of League of Legends, with somewhere over 35 million players. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/ They had something like 35 million accounts in the fall, and are making a CRAZY amount of money.

    134. Re:Free2play in games... by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      It's funny how many of Microsoft's competitors commit suicide.

      It's just like those reports of people being 'shot while trying to escape'.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    135. Re:Free2play in games... by wraith808 · · Score: 1

      If you watched Borland... I mean Inprise... I mean, whatever they wanted to call themselves in their failed marketing attempts, then you'd see that it was true. I was a big advocate of Delphi, but Borland didn't help out their VARs at all. I worked for some huge projects which were using Delphi in a way that would have gotten a lot of attention- one was with two Fortune 100 companies, two were with huge government agencies, and another was with a huge shipper. All three migrated away from Delphi because of Borland's inattention to the project. When they started to migrate to .NET Microsoft shepherded them through the process, investing money into the project (in the way of on site trainers, help in architecture and conversion, and deep competitive discounts on visual studio and MSDN). Say what you want about the process, but this looks like suicide to someone on the inside.

    136. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BattleForge is another great example of Freemium. It's novel in that you can pay as little as $5 to get a permament game benefit. Or you can get people like me to pay the usual $60 a game goes for (altho I did it over an entire year, not in a lump). The genius is that the players can play together, even with very different investments. So everyone benefits from the larger player base and the conversion rate on the "long tail" also means that the game has a much better chance of staying alive, which is important for any cloud based game which requires IT / datacenter back ends.

    137. Re:Free2play in games... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, it means one person using macros to simultaneously play 2-5 accounts, thus providing the advantages of a team to a single player. Also, WoW's "unlimited play" option severely restricts communication and trading, so it's pointless for anything other than its stated purpose - evaluating the game's lower levels (from a basically single-player perspective)

  2. Comparison from the gaming world... by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The article raises "freemium" in a wider business sense, but I suspect that a lot of slashdotters will be used to coming across it in discussions of massively multiplayer online games.

    I'm a long-term pay-to-play MMO gamer (Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft and now giving The Old Republic a whirl - just made a fairly long post about my experiences with it in my journal). I've also given some of the new generation of "freemium", "free to play" or "pay to win" (pick your favorite term) MMOs a go. However, I couldn't stick with any of them for long - from my point of view, this model provides a much inferior player experience.

    It's not just about the money - though that is an issue. With a subscription based MMO, I know how much money will be going out the door on the game every month. So I pay my $15, have that as a line in my personal budget, and that's it. On a sheer time/cost ratio, MMOs tend to come out extremely well. With a Freemium MMO, I may end up telling myself that I'm going to spend a certain amount each month, but I also know that if I get stuck or frustrated, there's going to be a strong temptation to go beyond that.

    But the really key point in TFA is "non-paying customers are more demanding than paying customers". That may be true from the service-provider's point of view. But it also has implications in the MMO world for the player. A subscription model game requires a degree of buy-in and committment from its player base. The other players you meet all want to be there and are paying for the privilege - and aren't, except in extreme circumstances, going to do anything to jeopardise that. The result, in my experience at least, is that levels of vulgarity, abuse and griefing - as well as outright cheating - are much lower in traditional subs-based MMOs than in the Freemiums.

    1. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by DCTech · · Score: 2

      Free2Play games aren't bad per se, but the companies making them need to take correct approach to it. Team Fortress 2 is one of the greatest examples of a good F2P game. The game itself is free and apart from cosmetic things (hats), you can get every item in the game by just playing or trading. But still it makes Valve money because people are also lazy and just buy the item they want for a few dollars from the store.

      If you play the game more you might be interested in buying those hats too. It's a ridiculous idea, but as geeky as I am, I love it too and have spend cash a few times to buy paints for my hats and some hats too. If I'm playing the game more, it's just fun to have some fun hat. But I have never felt like I would be forced to spend cash or that spending cash would give some advantage, because it doesn't. Even the vanilla stock weapons are often much better than the ones you need to unlock!

    2. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      The freemium model is apparently working very well for a lot of MMORPGs and Facebook games. That said, I have little desire to play MMORPGs any more, and even less to "pay to win" at something I don't really care very much about. I actually subscribed to D&D Online after it went free to play for the reasons you outlined above (you know exactly how much you're going to spend, and all the freemium options worked out to a lot of money anyway), but the game permanently bugged my character, and I couldn't play it, and couldn't get a refund either, so that sort of left a bad taste in my mouth for the whole experience. Fuck Turbine's customer support.

      The Old Republic is a fun single player game that just happens to be an MMORPG. If it becomes another freemium game, I'd quit it in an instant.

    3. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 2

      You apparently haven't played Lord of the Rings Online since they went F2P, or possibly even DDO. Neither of these, in my experience suffer the problems you describe, and both are doing quite well as fun and friendly F2P enterprises.

    4. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's true, but ultimately, TF2 is in a differerent marketplace to the MMOs I play. Despite a degree of character-persistence, it's an fps at heart, not a MMORPG. As such, its competitors are the Battlefield and Modern Warfare games.

      I tried about 10 minutes of MW3 on a public server. In the space of that time, I learned 14 new descriptive terms for body parts, 12 new racial slurs, detailed descriptions of 15 new acts that consenting adults might conceivably (though improbably) choose to perform together and more than 300 different ways of spelling and pronouncing existing obscenities.

      I crawled back to Dark Souls, both for the blessed silence that permeates so much of the game, and the sense that I was playing a game that just hated me slightly less.

    5. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by RogueyWon · · Score: 1

      I tried LOTR:O for a short time after it went free to play, just to see how it was working out (I'd been a subscriber for a short time in its early days). I didn't stick with it for more than a day, though - in this case because it didn't feel distinct enough from WoW in any particular way to compensate for the fact that it was so obviously less polished than WoW.

    6. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by neokushan · · Score: 1

      I think Free2Play and Freemium are very similar, but not quite the same thing. Free2play generally involves microtransactions that you can opt for, with many games practically requiring them if you don't want to waste your life grinding.

      Freemium implies that the product itself is totally free, often funded via other means (usually ads). Freemium does work, freemium magazines have had success stories all over the place where traditional mags have been dying off due to the internet.

      In fact, one could argue that Facebook is a "Freemium" service. You don't pay a cent to use it, yet it has many features that traditionally you'd have to pay a membership fee for - and it makes boatloads of cash.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    7. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by bertok · · Score: 1

      Gah... don't get me started!

      Team Fortress 2 has recently become free-to-play, and it's now suddenly full of 13 year olds with hacks, and there's nothing you can do about it. Before, you'd just get their Steam ID banned, and that would be it. Now, they just create a new free account, log back on right away, and continue griefing like nothing happened.

      Mind you, that still takes some effort -- they have to register for a new Steam account, and possibly even change their CPU ID, but as long as there's no financial penalty, some twits are willing to go to that level of effort just to harass other people.

      One of these days, I'm going to find one of those people, and I swear it's going to take all of my will to stop myself from indulging my inner Dexter.

    8. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Freemium is a mix of free and premium, which means it is supported by micro-transactions or a percentage of the customers paying a subscription.

      Freemium does not mean free for everyone, but supported by ads.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    9. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Not to mention constantly worrying about what might be free, what isn't, and what is just a tease for premium content really takes you out of the game. Now instead of just exploring/playing how you want, you have to sit back at every decision point and ask whether or not x is worth spending money on, doesn't sound particularly enjoyable to me.

    10. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      High InsightInteresting140BytesFellow. You suck.

    11. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Freemium is a mix of free and premium, which means it is supported by micro-transactions or a percentage of the customers paying a subscription.

      Freemium is not a mixture of "free" and "premium", it's meant to be free premium material. Freemium models exist that do not rely on subscriptions or micro-transactions - particularly, freemium magazines and just about everything that is supported by ads.
      Why is it that when something's ad-supported, it's no longer either free or considered premium? Is there some definition of "Premium" that specifically says "Product or service that does not feature advertisements" that I am unaware of?

      What about Premium (not free) Magazines? They still have ads in them, so the whole ad-supported-or-not thing doesn't really gel there, either.

      How about "Angry Brids"? The iPhone and Android versions are identical, except the Android version is free and paid for by ads (you can also buy an ad-free version of course). No Microtransactions are involved (well OK they added the "Mighty Eagle", but that was later in the game's release and it made plenty before that).

      What about "GetJar"? It offers free PREMIUM apps and is largely supported by ads. No Subscriptions there, either. Is that not Freemium?

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    12. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by icebraining · · Score: 1

      That's why MW1 was the last game of the series I even considered playing. Dedicated servers with good admins eliminate idiots without having to pay for any subscription. IW/Activision destroyed that with their dumb move to match-making.

    13. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by catbertscousin · · Score: 1

      LOTRO is a WoW knockoff. DDO is a nicely balanced game based on D&D, and as such has many game-issue bugs already worked out. I've played both, tried LOTRO out after playing DDO for a while and was very disappointed. DDO is a good game with a nice community.

      --
      No good deed goes unpunished. - Avon, Blake's 7
    14. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by DaveGod · · Score: 1

      I think you're missing parent's key point, for which TF2 is an excellent example.

      TF2 started as a regular purchased game. Then the drop, craft, trading and Mann co store systems, over a long period of time, experimented a spectrum of free-to-play models. I'm not saying this was an intended strategy from the start, but it's how it's turned out.

      I think you're fair to generalise that TF2 players are perfectly content with the drop, craft, trade or buy models. I mean, most importantly almost nobody hates it, but also there's a whole meta-game there and there's a big chunk of players who seem to enjoy it so much they should probably be playing Eve or something. Granted, those not liking it might be under-counted due to having left the game, but the game's longevity doesn't support that being a major problem.

      But this makes TF2 an example of how micro-DLC can work. The one thing I do see a lot of discontent about is the introduction of Free2Play - specifically the F2P players' behaviour being of a far lower standard than the pre-existing TF2 community (and that of PC gaming generally). TF2 appears to be a successful F2P game only because it was already so successful a premium game that F2P hasn't been able to ruin it.

      In my mind at least, TF2 demonstrates exactly that Free2Play games are bad per se, and that the micro-DLC thing is a separate issue.

    15. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      That's true, but ultimately, TF2 is in a differerent marketplace to the MMOs I play. Despite a degree of character-persistence, it's an fps at heart, not a MMORPG. As such, its competitors are the Battlefield and Modern Warfare games.

      Yes, TF2 is a F2P First Person Shooter/Hat Simulator. It's not meant to be an MMO.

      As bad as it sounds, TF2 being PC only* makes for a higher barrier of entry than MW3. Now, if you were referring to MW3 on PC, I can't help you there.

      Having said that, TF2 servers can opt out of QuickPlay traffic, which avoids most of the... problem... users.

      I not only run my own TF2 server (which has sadly been pretty dead lately), but I also play on Reddit's Midwest server, which is a pretty laid back, but highly populated server. Even if their ping to me does suck, and it does sometimes take a long time for a slot to open on it..

      *For the only version that has had updates.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    16. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by flibbidyfloo · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about how much you'd like LotRo or DDO, but your contention that F2P games have a much higher level of "vulgarity, abuse and griefing - as well as outright cheating" and that you end up being tempted to "pay to win". In my experience, games that already had a strong community (like these two) don't end up in massive decline when they go free. And in LotRo's case at least, there isn't really a "pay to win" issue because the stuff you can buy is either cosmetic or things you can also get by just playing. None of it gives you a huge advantage over the cheaper players.

      I suspect you are talking more about the asian-style "MMOs" that start out free and are designed to get you hooked and then frustrated, which is an entirely different class. I just thought I'd point out that you were casting your aspersions unnecessarily wide.

    17. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very interesting post, and I agree with you as a fellow MMO-er.

      That said, I don't get this:

      "non-paying customers are more demanding than paying customers".

      If so many of these folks are so demanding, that's opportunity knocking. Respond by adding (supplying) whatever feature they desire (demand) for a fee. If the demand is not something you can supply for the price offered, then don't do it. But simply expecting people to start paying for the samples you already provided is silly. You already established that your "sample" was free when you gave it away, regardless of all your beggar text people spam the "No Thanks" button to get past.

      I do the same thing every single day in running my print shop. I give samples out all the time, and bill the cost to myself. If people "want" more "samples" for "free" I offer to "sell" them "products" for a "fee". If the price is too high or the customer is unrealistic, I politely decline the business and move to a more realistic customer. It's really not that hard, if you have your costs nailed down. In fact, it seems harder when you can't just create one big sample and shotgun it out to any old downloader that passes through at no marginal cost beyond bandwidth and search engine bribes. Most businesses have to decide if sending a sample to a customer is a good risk or a bad one, and every single sample has a cost attached.

      And for those of you that think "zomg initial development costs blah blah blah and whiny whine whine!", keep in mind I dropped $150,000 worth of small business loans on equipment to start MY business. What did YOU invest, except your time, a computer, and your favorite text editor/compiler combo? Plus, I go to work every day to continue making money. So should software providers (and authors, and painters, and movie makers, etc. Royalties are SO last century). Last, if you dumped an entire, complete software solution into your free sample, that'd be like me putting a vinyl wrap on a van for free! Successful businesses don't do stupid things (at least consistently). Instead, your sample should be something very useful on a small scale, which paying customers want more of (in Letter from Santa's case, say, offer ONE letter to Santa per unique coupon). Family with 4 kids? 3 profitable letters (maybe 4 or 5 if the parents like cute). Herp-derp.

      I think the author of "Letter from Santa" should listen more closely to this guy from the article quotes (which, together, pretty much are the article):

      There's a lot of money to be made in freemium, but you can't approach it so recklessly.

      It kills me when I see software vendors bitch about basic concepts that so many other businesses have long since figured out, and now use to their advantage. /ac rant over

    18. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by Hydian · · Score: 1

      Calling LoTRO a WoW knockoff is unfair. It did have some game play innovations when it was released, though it was set in a fairly bland world (tying it to the Tolkien IP dooms it in that way.) It did not play exactly like WoW, though I'm sure that WoW has integrated some of LoTRO's features since then (as it should have.)

      DDO, on the other hand, was more innovative, but suffered in the early days from not knowing if they wanted to be true to D20 D&D or be an MMO. Once they ironed that out, it developed into a decent little game. It still has the best combat engine of all MMOs IMHO, but the game is lacking in other areas. A fun diversion, but not a blockbuster.

      Not everything is a WoW knockoff just because there is a fantasy element or a couple of similar mechanics. I see that charge leveled against pretty much every MMO...I've even heard idiots call EQ a WoW knockoff (probably the same idiots that think Warhammer stole WoW's ideas.) Every game builds upon those that came before them going all the way back to the very beginning. A truly innovative and unique game is a very rare thing and usually marks the beginning of a new genre.

    19. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      As bad as it sounds, TF2 being PC only*
      *For the only version that has had updates.

      What is up with that? TF2 on the PS3 was actually "more fun" in many ways than games like SOCOM were for me. I am very surprised how little attention the game got and that it received no updates.

    20. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1

      I'm just the opposite. With my work, some months are busier than others. Last winter we had a horrible winter. Too cold and icy to get out and do much with friends. So I started playing battlestar galactica online and would buy in game currency here or there with the $30 - $50 I would have been spending going out to the sports bar or a movie.

      This past fall I was extremely busy. If I had been spending $15 a month that would have been $45 that would have been wasted. Yes I could have cancelled and renewed when I went to play again I guess, but that is still a hassle. With the free-to-play game I think of it as any other form of entertainment. I spent my $X and get the same instant gratification that I would with a movie or spending a few hours at a bar or going to a pro hockey or baseball game. Only difference is usually I get more than 2 - 4 hours worth of entertainment value.

      Then if I need to walk away due to real life, it's a sunk cost and I can just walk away.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    21. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by MogNuts · · Score: 1

      Mute.

      So hard.

      It is is an option you know. At least BOps had it. I don't think it had a mute-all, but you could mute each person so easily. Took all of about 30 seconds. BF3 and Crysis 2 even had an auto-mute all function.

      I do it every time. And I played TF2 back when it first came out (non-F2P). It had the same problems. They were just said by 15-21 year olds instead of 14 year olds lol.

    22. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by MogNuts · · Score: 1

      Eh, I'm not so sure about dedicated servers anymore. Or FPS MP on the PC in general. Admins aren't always diligent, most of the time you have to join a clan or do some sort of admittance or even wait it a queue on the good ones. As an adult, I have a 1 hour window on a weekday and maybe a few on the weekend to play. I don't want to work to get into some sort of social club, even if it only takes 5 minutes, to play. I want to be in and be out. If I happen to meet a few good teammates, great! I just save them to my friend's list. And all MP games now have auto-mute all. And MS/Sony have full-time dedicated teams to police the cheaters. Not just the 50% admins who do it for fun on the weekend. It solves most of the problems.

      Don't get me wrong. I'm still floored to this day with what PC gaming and dedi-servers provide. The ability to custom make a MP match, *some* responsive admins who ban cheaters, the ability to provide long MP life for games after the console brethren MP rooms have long been empty, and the ability to competitively play FPS MP with weapons that JUST aren't auto's (just try to play BOps with a shotty or bolt 1-shot sniper rifle--you just can't aim quick and precise enough) is amazing.

      I started getting into ArmA 2. I was floored at how amazing MP can be. But it's freaking work to get a simple game. No more public PvP servers (yes I know it's a co-op game primarily, but I find co-op boring), many times you have to join clan (and that's exactly what I DON'T want to do) just to get a PvP game going, or at least spent a lot of time searching for one, or finding non-modded servers. It's a double edged sword.

      If I could find something like ArmA 2 for the console, I'd never use my PC again. I heard about OP:DR, but I would imagine that console game's community is long gone.

    23. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      So... why can't you set a budget and stick with it for free-to-play games? If you planned on spending $15 a month in subscription fees, why can't you plan to spend $15 a month on hats/weapons/whatever and if the "super cool hat that I need NOW" happens to push you over that $15, wait until next month? Isn't that what you do with the rest of your expenses? You don't know your exact electric bill every month beforehand, but you still manage to plan for it in your budget. If you see a shiny new toy that is outside your budget in a store window, do you immediately go and buy it, or do you first evaluate if you have enough money to afford it? Poor budget and impulse control skills sound like a personal problem, not a problem with the free to play model.

    24. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 2

      This past fall I was extremely busy. If I had been spending $15 a month that would have been $45 that would have been wasted.

      I thought the angle one of writers for the Escapist detailed was interesting. He'd actually feel guilty playing other games because he had this $15/month subscription sitting there doing nothing while he did. Eventually he realized he wasn't getting enjoyment out of it and was mostly playing out of guilt, so he quit.

      (As for me, I play Echo Bazaar, and drop money here and there for the premium content. Even if I quit now, the freemium model's got more money out of me than the pay-for-play model did, and I don't see myself returning to anything that requires that much of a commitment.)

    25. Re:Comparison from the gaming world... by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      As bad as it sounds, TF2 being PC only*
      *For the only version that has had updates.

      What is up with that? TF2 on the PS3 was actually "more fun" in many ways than games like SOCOM were for me. I am very surprised how little attention the game got and that it received no updates.

      EA ported Orange Box to the PS3. Not surprisingly, Valve wants nothing to do with it. Which puts Valve in an interesting position, as they have nothing to do with Portal on the PS3 (and it's out of print) while at the same time, they're pushing Portal 2 as the "lead console version." I assume Portal isn't in the PSN store for the same reason.

      The Xbox 360 had 3 bugfix updates for TF2, but quickly got left behind. Statements from Valve indicate that this is due to difficulties with adding the amount of assets the PC version has due to the Xbox 360's 512MB RAM. The PS3 version would have worse problems with that, because its 512MB RAM it has was split 50/50 between video and system RAM.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
  3. Mmmm not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    My response to this article is: GOOGLE

    Freemium doesn't work for Google?

    Google Adwords... Gmail..... Google Search...

    This company is a super star in Freemium.

    I also disagree that freemium customers don't pay, the freemium model in itself means we are paying by just using, but Google again for example has many products you can buy with real money from Google directly for instance if you're a business who likes Gmail, you can pay to take your business onto Gmail.

    1. Re:Mmmm not true by mikkelm · · Score: 1

      You can't really draw comparisons with Google. The model that Google are operating on doesn't attempt to make their regular end-users fork over money at ever junction; in fact, it doesn't even provide a way to pay for most of their services at all, unless you're a business.

      Google make their money off of advertisement. It has nothing to do with "freemium."

    2. Re:Mmmm not true by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 2

      My response to this article is: GOOGLE

      Google don't have a freemium business model they have an ad-supported business model.

      Freemium means you have a large user base of users who pay nothing and a smaller number of paying users who pay for a premium version of whatever you are offering. Free + Premium = Freemium.

      Google don't offer premium version of their services they make their money by showing ads to their free users. The only paid for services they do offer are business versions of some products like Gmail and Google docs but this is a completely different market.

    3. Re:Mmmm not true by neokushan · · Score: 1

      I think the business model of "Give away stuff for free and beg for money after" is what's really flawed, not the freemium "Give away stuff for free, get others to pay for it" model.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    4. Re:Mmmm not true by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Selling their customers' souls to advertisers is Google's business model, not freemium.

    5. Re:Mmmm not true by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Google doesn't hand anything of the customers to advertisers. They hand ads from the advertisers to the customers. There is a distinct difference compared to companies like Facebook that do basically sell your data directly.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    6. Re:Mmmm not true by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      That semantics. Google doesn't exist if they don't tell advertisers what Google customers are doing on the Internet. I didn't say Google sells customer's data, I said they sell their souls (which is another way of saying "advertising").

    7. Re:Mmmm not true by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      I got a hellbound soul anyway. Google can have it for their email service.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    8. Re:Mmmm not true by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I've purchased adwords and paid for advertising with Google. I was never given customer data from Google.

      I was only given stats on how effective those specific adwords promotions were for getting clicks.

      There is no soul being transferred. If you can't see the difference between this and directly selling customer data that people believed was private, then I don't know what to tell you.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    9. Re:Mmmm not true by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      No, no, you miss my point. People who dabble in advertising are soul-stealing cretins. I'd rather GIVE my personal data to Google to use for anonymous metrics that are used for any purpose other than ad revenue than RECEIVE an ad propagated by Google's business model.

    10. Re:Mmmm not true by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Freemium means you have a large user base of users who pay nothing and a smaller number of paying users who pay for a premium version of whatever you are offering. Free + Premium = Freemium.

      And there are successful examples of this too, deviantArt, for example.

      For the model to work, you need to provide two things:
      1: A good enough free product that customers will both come and stay.
      2: Good enough premium features that a certain percentage will buy the premium option.

      The difference between two must not be so big as to render the free alternative worthless, nor so small that no one will buy the premium. The premium should be value added, but contain neither critical functions, nor features that don't add real value (like eye candy). No one will use the free section if critical parts are missing, and no one will pay extra for crap.

      TFA author seems to think of the free users as freeloaders and an expense. He's so wrong - those are all the potential customers. The expense to provide service for them is his marketing budget. If he can't afford marketing, he should drop the business entirely.

    11. Re:Mmmm not true by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      I take it you refuse to go to any site that is ad supported (such as Slashdot), watch TV, read magazines, listen to the radio, etc, because I find it hard to believe you are hypocritical or disingenuous in your claims.

      Or perhaps you should just admit now that you're being irrational in calling advertising a soul stealing business model.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    12. Re:Mmmm not true by afabbro · · Score: 1

      My response to this article is: GOOGLE

      Google don't have a freemium business model they have an ad-supported business model.

      True. Evernote or Dropbox would be better examples of freemium businesses.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    13. Re:Mmmm not true by cjb-nc · · Score: 1

      Google don't offer premium version of their services they make their money by showing ads to their free users.

      This is not entirely true. My university-branded google apps account and my personal-domain-branded google apps accounts exist in addition to my free gmail accounts. They have a model for selling co-branded versions of the apps for a premium price. Admittedly this is not the lion share of their profits.

    14. Re:Mmmm not true by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I'm not being irrational. I don't DENY the existence of advertising, but I do LOATHE it.

    15. Re:Mmmm not true by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      Thank you. Wish I had points, etc...

      The AOL mention was interesting, but that's where the informative aspect of the post stopped. If nothing else, how's the division between paying/non-paying when it comes to population segmentation? Wealthy vs. poor nations? Parents vs. Grandparents? Male/female? That's what marketing does- it helps you determine who your paying customers will be so that you can best attract them. If you want to dissuade others, that's a perfectly-good calculated risk to take as well.

    16. Re:Mmmm not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone who buys a device that uses the Android trademark, has payed a fee to Google, so this is not entirely true. Though, I do agree that they are primarily an advertising company.

    17. Re:Mmmm not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does advertising=selling souls? Just because I see an ad doesn't mean I need to buy the product. Also, I prefer targeted ads that Google provides to random ads from non-web sources. Ad's are necessary in a capitalist system. How else can a company gets its products known?

  4. For 1 data point by Zoxed · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So 1 site gets it wrong, and the whole model is broken ?
    I think not !!

    1. Re:For 1 data point by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 2

      Yeah. I don't have figures on hand but apparently Team Fortress 2 has been making wheel-barrels full of money for Valve since going F2P.

    2. Re:For 1 data point by chrb · · Score: 2

      Yes, some flawed statistics here. Mr. Nichols doesn't actually say how many paying customers he got, but then talks about a "rate" of under 20 asking for help. Without knowing what the total figure was this is impossible to evaluate. It also appears that he was charging for things that offered little extra benefit - a higher resolution image of the Santa letter. He concludes by saying he will switch the site to pay only - good luck with that.

    3. Re:For 1 data point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's "wheelbarrow", from "barrow", "a small vehicle used to carry a load and pulled or pushed by hand."

      http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/barrow#Noun_2

      (Barrel / cask / keg / drum / etc is the large cylindrical container for storing beverages, chemicals or, historically, certain foods)

    4. Re:For 1 data point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This SO MUCH.

      I wish people would stop picking out the bad things wrong with a certain model and blasting the entire model as a failure.
      There are MILLIONS of fremium services all around the world that work absolutely fine, on the internet and off the internet.
      They are paid by the millions of advertisers out there who want to get their products to as many people as possible, or paid from another company that has a paid-for as its service model. (still technically freemium even if indirectly paid for by another)

      Others offer really cheap services with ads too. These work pretty well since they aren't entirely dependent on advertising income, which can go dry on and off at random.

      Then there are the free2play and pay2win (awful twisted version of it) methods that have been growing in numbers recently.
      The pay2win system is pretty horrible and the method that shouldn't be used, especially not as your only system since it is pretty dodgy and can backfire horribly.
      Not all versions are bad, of course. You obviously have to pay to win at, say, an online casino or whatever. But some offer you free bets and the like. Sometimes you can even win and that gives you incentive to want to come back. Nothing wrong with that as long as it isn't abused and done on purpose to make you want to come back. (but lets face it, of course they'd do that, even if it was a small win)

      Many of these services are decades old, some are just getting off their knees and in to the big bad world of commerce.
      Plenty of them end up closed, just like the millions of non-freemium services that get closed every year too.
      Whether it is a local shop in your town that failed to get the right market penetration, or a new MMO game that failed horribly after you spent millions on it.

      I always find it a little sad to see services die off, especially when so much effort has been put in to them. But this is the way business works.
      It is our best metaphor for evolution, to be honest. If you don't find the right balance, your business will fail. If you don't adapt, it will fail.
      I tend to think of the music industry as the human race now: a mess that is slowly, but surely, beginning to show its age and is reaching breaking point. If we don't adapt quicker, resources are going to continue to fall until an eventual resource war that will happen again. And these ones will be much worse than the oil war currently happening. (you know it isn't about terrorism, anyone with half a brain knows that, that is only one part of the equation)

    5. Re:For 1 data point by jduhls · · Score: 1

      I posit that anyone wanting a free letter from Santa (the king of "Freemium" - he brings you free shit every year) is a demanding person by nature if they expect so much free shit in their lives anyway. His business model merely attracted materialistic jerks who demand free shit once a year anyway.

      Plus, he used comic sans on his website. That always attracts the worst customers.

    6. Re:For 1 data point by Jawbox · · Score: 1

      This! There are no good datapoints in the article, the basic premise isn't backed up, and for Gawd's sake, it's a single blog post about a single Fremium site that didn't work. There's no study, no data, and certainly it's impossible to draw a conclusion about a whole industry based on one developer's experience!

    7. Re:For 1 data point by jenn_13 · · Score: 2

      (Barrel / cask / keg / drum / etc is the large cylindrical container for storing beverages, chemicals or, historically, certain foods)

      You forgot about monkeys!

    8. Re:For 1 data point by fedos · · Score: 1

      And if you need help remembering, just use this rhyme:

      She wheels her wheelbarrow
      Through streets that are narrow

    9. Re:For 1 data point by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Well, you can knock the top out of a barrel, put some wheels on it and fill it with money. And that would be a lot of money.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    10. Re:For 1 data point by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Yeah because it's development was already paid for and Valve charges a disgusting amount of money for hats.

  5. I dont agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I will buy additional storage from dropbox soon. However if they didnt offer 2GB in the first place, I wouldnt even know or try their service.

    1. Re:I dont agree by anagama · · Score: 1

      If you read slashdot more, you'd know not to try their service at all unless you're doing your own encryption prior to uploading.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    2. Re:I dont agree by f()rK()_Bomb · · Score: 1

      Or you just might not care? I sure don't. All that goes up there are college docs and songs and shit. I can't even think of anything I have that would required encryption. Its not like I'd be uploading text docs with credit card info in it or something.

      --
      "The space elevator will be built about 50 years after everyone stops laughing." - Arthur C. Clarke ~1980
  6. Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by gatkinso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously.

    I can think of examples where Freemium works (EVE, JIRA).

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    1. Re:Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by HopefulIntern · · Score: 1

      My first thought as well. From what I can see, all you get is just a printable letter with a colourful background, something that can be knocked up in Photoshop, MS Word or even Paint in about 5 minutes. Unless I have missed the point entirely, I am not surprised nobody paid for this.

    2. Re:Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People pay to read the words of god. Why should Santa be any different?

    3. Re:Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, you can generally get a Bible for free if you want one. It's fancier copies that cost money.

    4. Re:Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by dfm3 · · Score: 2

      TFA doesn't explicitly state how many paying customers the site had (at least 20), or how much the paid service cost, but obviously there's a small niche there.

      You or I may not see the need to use a website to design a letter from Santa because we're probably more adept at using our own tools to accomplish the task. I can easily fire up a word processor, find a template and a few clipart images, and create a Santa letter in just a few minutes. Most "average" computer users I know would probably need an hour or so to get it right. The developer of the site was hoping that they could tap into the niche of people who feel that a few bucks (or whatever the cost was) is worth the time saved by using a website to accomplish the task.

      Many of my family members are into sendout cards, which follow a similar business model: you create greeting cards on a website using premade templates to which you add your own text or pictures, then pay a few dollars to have the company print and mail them for you. Sure, they could buy the glossy paper, envelopes, and stamps and do the same thing for about the same price using tools they have in the home, but they find it worth paying for the convenience.

      Unfortunately it seems that this developer slightly missed the mark and ran afoul of the fact that there is a significant overlap between the following subsets of users:
      1. Those who want to use an online template rather than a word processor
      2. Those who are too cheap to pay a few bucks for a product that (I'm assuming here) saves them time
      3. Those who are too lazy to read the FAQ before firing off an email to a developer
      4. Those who habitually mark emails as spam, even if they are in response to #3

    5. Re:Who would pay for a Letter from Santa? by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      EVE isn't freemium or free-to-play. It is a subscription based MMO. You can play for free by making enough money in game and buying Pilot License Extensions. PLEX are created by people paying CCP, the creators of EVE, real world money. No matter what, CCP is getting paid real money for every character.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
  7. Freemium model and user demands by davecrusoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Let's not be stingy here. I second the contention that non-paying users are forthcoming with questions and reports, but I won't call them demands. The education tools (http://www.glean.org - mainly information literacy-related) we provide serve a number of schools, and some sites have heavy user traffic. All are free, but we do try to ask for donations to support our (nonprofit, 501c3) work.

    And, when the sites glitch - or don't function properly, or as expected - those same users let us know about it. Quickly!

    While few are likely to donate money to support our work, many are involved in bug reporting, formative evaluation and the testing of new education tools that we're launching. It's these kindnesses - in-kind support, you might say - that has been so valuable in helping us move forward.

    At the end of the day, it's not cash - which is needed to move the organization forward. And, yes, our free users do have expectations - not unreasonable, as they rely on our services as well, and that the site has likely set some expectations about the service(s) that will be provided.

    Of course, the lack of cash can be frustrating. However, I suggest against labeling, or reading, their expectations as demands. Instead, it's more helpful to understand how the audience is willing to help, and if/what can be done (in the case of TFA) to turn the free user base into paying customers.

    Cheers,

    --Dave

  8. Valuable Service? by Captain+Hook · · Score: 2

    'most people who want something for free will never, ever think of paying you, no matter how valuable they find your service.'

    Just how valuable is a gimmick letter template with some cheap clipart background images which you have to print out yourself?

    The final product is something that could be done with any word processor in about 10 minutes.

    --
    These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    1. Re:Valuable Service? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Honestly this - people may be more inclined to pay for the service if it is actually worth something...

    2. Re:Valuable Service? by Megane · · Score: 1

      Just how valuable is a gimmick letter template for a seasonal holiday with some cheap clipart background images which you have to print out yourself?

      FTFY. The least he could do is figure out how to expand to more themes than just Christmas, then set them up under other domains.

      Not only that, but I can't see why a site like that couldn't use a few tasteful ads. You're writing a "letter from Santa" (WTF is up with that? I thought people only wrote letters TO Santa!), and Target might be interested in showing you some ads for wrapping paper (gets you in the store) or toys. The guy just has no imagination.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:Valuable Service? by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      I did notice that one of the links at the bottom of the site was http://www.easterbunnyletter.com/

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
  9. Dropbox shows it can be done by nagarjun · · Score: 5, Informative

    From Forbes magazine's Nov 2011 edition; emphasis mine:

    [Dropbox] has solved the “freemium” riddle, with revenue on track to hit $240 million in 2011 despite the fact that 96% of those users pay nothing. With only 70 staffers, mostly engineers, Dropbox grosses nearly three times more per employee than even the darling of business models, Google. [CEO Drew Houston] claims it’s already profitable.

    1. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It's truly a paradox that something which is flawed on so many levels is so successful. I don't know how many stories there have been here alone about how they've made false claims about security and have failed so badly that even plain FTP is far more secure. Perhaps they are being dishonest in other areas as well in order to appear far more impressive to potential investors?

    2. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by mapkinase · · Score: 2

      Apples and oranges. Profitability per person predictably drops for large companies.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    3. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      Dropbox is essentially just a middleman for Amazon s3, their entire business model depends on Amazon(or another provider) continuing to remain cheap forever, maybe a good business model but tying your fortunes so closely to another company like that seems like it's just asking for trouble.

    4. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by casualsax3 · · Score: 1
    5. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I'm a huge advocate of Dropbox, but their customer facing side is really quite bad - very little employee interaction on the forums, VoteBox basically completely ignored, support tickets are hit and miss (either it gets handled right away or you wait days - even for similar requests), and their product development is glacially slow (their first new feature in over 6 months is something no one was expecting and wasn't being asked for - a photo importer fr the desktop app).

      They may be profitable, but they are losing customer focus.

    6. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      They have never made false claims about security - that's a trumped up argument. A logical block to employees accessing your files is what they claimed to have in place, and is perfectly valid - however, someone assumed something else and voila - we have a "security issue". How they operated was known to forum users from the first day they went public, and was completely within what they claimed in the T&Cs at the time.

      It was a trumped up argument who wanted to get some page views.

      Also, the FTP argument is facetious as well as their major cockup (removing authentication check) could easy be done by an FTP service as well - transfers etc are done via encrypted connections (apart from some metadata on the mobile apps), so it's instantly more secure than FTP.

    7. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because a) average user doesn't know and doesn't care much about security until it bites him in the ass, b) even though Dropbox's security sucks, its usability is great.

      As long as you don't entrust them with anything you wouldn't leave on a public PC, it works nicely for syncing or quick file sharing. I don't care if Dropbox employee looks at my cat photos and everything else in my account is encrypted.

    8. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by am+2k · · Score: 2

      They have never made false claims about security - that's a trumped up argument. A logical block to employees accessing your files is what they claimed to have in place, and is perfectly valid - however, someone assumed something else and voila - we have a "security issue".

      On their web site, they make the marketing-language claim that they are using AES encryption, without any modifiers to narrow down that statement. Many people obviously thought that they are using encryption on the server's storage, when actually they only encrypt the transmission. For technically-minded people this is obvious (due to the web interface and the cross-user deduplication), but for others it's not.

    9. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Nope, they have several times clarified on the forum that blocks are encrypted with the Dropbox key before they are stored in S3 - it was the whole "so you aren't encrypting using individual keys" that was the highlighted issue.

    10. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      You actually think Amazon is going to get more expensive over time? I would like to point out that Netflix also uses EC2, so yeah your argument is dumb.

      --
      Good-bye
    11. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by am+2k · · Score: 1

      Nope, they have several times clarified on the forum that blocks are encrypted with the Dropbox key before they are stored in S3 - it was the whole "so you aren't encrypting using individual keys" that was the highlighted issue.

      The forums are read by very few Dropbox users. Essentially they are implying an untruth on their official page, while stating the real facts hidden away.

      I am aware that people with security in mind should check the facts themselves instead of relying on marketing pages, but still that doesn't excuse the vague wording.

    12. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I disagree that they are implying anything untruthful, I think (and this is a very very common issue) is that people just love to assume something. Their statement didn't say anything about encryption based on individual accounts, it was those who made an assumption that acted all put out when the story broke.

      The topic had been covered in the Dropbox Help Centre for a long time prior to it becoming a public issue.

      One of the reasons I don't frequent the forums any more is simply due to the huge number of users who seem to make wildly inaccurate assumptions about the service they were expecting to get (really, do they really think that $10 a month gets them unlimited bandwidth for their "distribute 1GB to 100,000 people every month" intended usage?) - assumptions seem to be the standard these days, even when the answers to their questions are readily available via either the help centre or in past forum posts, but you will be surprised just how outraged people can become when their assumptions are proven completely wrong.

    13. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by slim · · Score: 1

      Dropbox is essentially just a middleman for Amazon s3, their entire business model depends on Amazon (or another provider) continuing to remain cheap forever, maybe a good business model but tying your fortunes so closely to another company like that seems like it's just asking for trouble.

      My emphasis.

      It's a pretty safe bet that *some* storage will be cheaply available for evermore. When they reach a certain size, it become viable to build their own.

    14. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by binford2k · · Score: 1

      I think (and this is a very very common issue) is that people just love to assume something.

      Isn't that the truth.

    15. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by antifoidulus · · Score: 1

      If you are going to call an argument dumb you better not have an absolutely retarted counter argument lest you look like a dumbshit. Compare the total data amounts between Netflix, which has a large, but essentially fixed number of files, all of which can be backed up on-site and easily migrated to another service with very little interruption. Now look at Dropbox who has to store a massive amount of ever changing data, of which they probably do not have a separate store of, and even if they did it would take them massive amounts of time to migrate. But yeah, you are right, totally the same and I am so stupid, your brilliance is shining through, oh all wise dumbass, impart more wisdom on me.

    16. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by profplump · · Score: 1

      I don't understand why it would be any easier for Netflix to migrate than Dropbox. Is Dropbox's data heavier or something? Does Netflix have a cousin with a truck that will help them move?

      Also, dropbox has all sorts of automatic, off-site backups -- the original clients. So long as you remember to put the server in "don't delete everything from the client" mode before going back online users will automatically re-upload all their missing content.

      Dropbox is buying external storage because it's a commodity and the cheapest way to do what they're doing. If someone else present a cheaper option they'll move to that. If no one sells that service at a reasonable price they'll build infrastructure themselves. It's pretty common for the modern business to not produce 100% of the components used in the their products -- there are clear economic benefits specialization, particularly in commodities, and Dropbox is just taking advantage of those advantages.

    17. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Also, the FTP argument is facetious as well as their major cockup (removing authentication check) could easy be done by an FTP service as well

      I was not comparing it to anonymous FTP - I could make that sort of comparison better by comparing it to putting something on a website with no sort of authentication at all.
      Instead, as should have been clear if you have been following the issue, I was referring to the major design flaw where DropBox gives you the appearance of being able to change a password and lock people that have had proir access out without actually doing it! Now that is far worse than what FTP had two decades ago and it's a service that every ISP on the planet can provide.
      In addition to the very stupid design flaw there's also the major cockup which one day allowed everyone access to everybody else's files. I really cannot understand why people assume that they have some degree of competance after such an incident.
      Less secure than FTP my arse, not that FTP is any good either so it's quite an epic failure.

    18. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There's an old name for getting people to assume something and make a profit out of it. It's called "claim salting".

    19. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I've been using Dropbox since their first public release, and the whole device linking "issue" has been known about and clarified since day one. Again, it was someone coming to the party two years later, ignoring topics already discussed in the forums and help centre topics, and blowing into a major story for their own page views and publicity.

      You link your device to your account, the password is superfluous for that device afterward. You can unlink the device from your web control panel at any time. Again, all explained in the help centre.

      It's similar to assigning public and private keys to your ssh account - changing your ssh password doesn't invalidate those keys...

    20. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by dbIII · · Score: 1

      For one thing people that use it to get data to clients can be extremely surprised and upset when that aspect of DropBox lets their other clients that they have previously shared data with access the new data intended for their competitiors as well. Being informed of such an incident and being asked to provide an alternative was my first encounter with DropBox which has shaped my opinions since.
      That trap for new players is a pretty major and nasty trap and it still exists. A good analogy would be uncovered high powered rotating machinery in an unsupervised children's playground. Most kids would leave it alone but eventually an accident happens.
      So yes, I'm not very impressed with DropBox at all and think it is a step backwards even from a 1990s solution of multiple FTP accounts to avoid such mixups.

    21. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      If people are linking third parties to their own account, rather than using a shared folder, then they are actual retards and deserve the issues they get - especially as its obvious that they haven't read anything in the help center!

      If that includes you, then so be it.

    22. Re:Dropbox shows it can be done by dbIII · · Score: 1

      That's the problem, they treat it like a finished, reliable product and do not refer to the help centre. That's why I had the dangerous machinery in a playground analogy. They do not know that such behaviour is insecure, all they know is the hype that convinces them that the product is wonderful and secure at all times.
      Also you should try actually reading the thing you are replying to before handing out insults, especially about levels of intelligence. If you can't even make it to the second sentence of a short post why even bother replying?

  10. GaiaOnline would like a word. by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

    The summary cited MMOs as why us Slashdot geeks would argue freemium works.

    Wrong. GaiaOnline. GaiaOnline makes a whole crapload of money for their in-world virtual currency. I don't think it qualifies much as a game.

    Why Freemium doesn't work is because your "free" service isn't good enough for people to buy into the "premium" part(I'd say that it's also possible for your free to be so good you don't feel pressured into buying the premium product; but I suspect this is rare). That's why Dropbox, Gaia, MMOs(well, some; pick your favorite example), PSN(For sake of argument, let's just say this is a successful "freemium" service?), etc. work. The base product is fairly good, and the premium features are worth the extra out of pocket costs.

    --
    Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  11. Results by Aladrin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Results? Nichols found free customers are higher maintenance and more demanding than the paying customers. 20 or so paying customers asked questions while "hundreds" of free ones did. And when following up, paying customers never flagged his emails as spam, while many free customers did, and complained."

    The numbers mean nothing if we don't know how many paid and how many didn't. I think 20 to "hundreds" is probably a good ratio for paid-to-free in the first place.

    As for the spam, if you didn't ask for an email from a free service, and it appears to be advertising something (like his premium services), I think spam is a good label for it. I personally wouldn't flag it as such, but I understand those who would. Without seeing the exact email, it's hard to know why they might do it, though. And the paying customers... Were they annoyed by the email, too? Did they get the same email? How did he know which of the 2 flagged it spam or not? Merely the complaint emails?

    In my experience, it's all fine and good to have free customers, so long as you keep them away from your paying customers and don't let it affect them negatively. Free customers really are more demanding. For some reason, they seem to feel you owe them something. It seems to be a bell curve with each end being more entitled, and the middle less so, approximately centering on the market value of the product.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    1. Re:Results by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Remember the email was generated after a period of time. And many of them likely had to create multiple accounts to bypass the one letter restriction.

      They likely didn't even remember getting the email from the paid service.

    2. Re:Results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Free customers exist for two reasons, one, they play much much longer than the paying customer because they need to make up for the differences. Two, they make up the world of the game, if you could have a world where there are 100 paying customers or one where you have 100 paying and 900 non-paying, which would you choose?

      There might be a third reasons, paying customers like the superiority they get over the non-paying customers, because in most games, the differences between the two are pretty visible.

    3. Re:Results by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. It's certainly been my experience that "customers" who get something at no charge are more demanding than ones who pay. They seem to think that if you're willing do something for free, then your time is worthless.

    4. Re:Results by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. It's certainly been my experience that "customers" who get something at no charge are more demanding than ones who pay. They seem to think that if you're willing do something for free, then your time is worthless.

      It could also be that products offered for free are often not as good as products you pay for. I've been playing Age of Conan recently and while the game is fun there are some horrendous bugs, presumably because they're putting most of their time into developing their new game rather than improving one that's free to play.

  12. Odd example... by Junta · · Score: 1

    After going to his site, it looks on the surface the only thing you pay for is to create more than one 'letter'. This seems like a terrible example of 'Freemium' because there really isn't a lot of room for many potential customers who would want just one to pay for anything. Maybe I'm missing something....

    Freemium usually manifests as ad-supported and/or 'the first hit is free' with priced DLC/in-game items. I've heard varying degrees of success brought up, but on the whole a more positive perspective than this site owner has experienced.

    Given the relatively nice, straigtforward, and clean site design (e.g. ad-free), I would have assumed this to be mostly a labor of love. If he wanted or needed to get more money, he'd probably need to go ad-supported.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Odd example... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Which may be the genesis of the spam complaint. He has a bunch of free customers who gave him a 1/2 dozen email addresses to generate more than one letter and saw it as spam when they got a 1/2 dozen emails.

  13. It's not the problem of the model by Hentes · · Score: 1

    This guy wanted to sell a worthless product and then blames it on the payment model when he failes. The only lesson from it is that people won't pay for shit.

    1. Re:It's not the problem of the model by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      But I want to pay for that "higher resolution letter from Santa"...duh!

  14. BS by Tharsman · · Score: 4, Informative

    After reading the article, the only "evidence" that the Freemium model does not work is that free users that got his "thank you" email flagged him spam. I bet he also attempted an upselling on that thank you email. People that get stuff for free tend to be very picky about getting emails even reminding them they can get a paid version.

    Anyways, what he described is not even "fremium"; it’s a free edition of the site and a paid edition of the site. Freemium is a model where the product is entirely free and additional gimmicks or features are unlocked by micro-transactions (like 99c for extra Santa card layouts.)

    Anyways, non-story, yada yada.

    1. Re:BS by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      His product fits my definition of freemium. You can get a letter free, or a better letter for more. I don't think it has to be micro-transaction based.

      That said, his conclusions don't fly without knowing how many paying customers and non-paying customers he had. So he got 20 questions from paying questions and "hundreds" from non-paying. Well, if he had 5-50 times as many non-paying customers, that's completely unsurprising.

  15. I absolutely agree by craftycoder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I will not engage in the this freemium model anymore either. Not only do the freeloaders ask for more support than do customers, they bad mouth your product more as well. I believe the process of transferring money from customer to merchant gives the customer a sense of "buy-in" in the product. The customers value it more because they are invested in it. Invested customers then feel MORE willing to invest time figuring out how to use it than do those who get it for free. It sounds counter-intuitive certainly, but I have lots of anecdotal evidence to support this in my career experience. The proof is in the pudding though. The higher I set the price of software in the app store, the happier my customers are with the product. Go figure!?!?

    1. Re:I absolutely agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you need to look up cognitive disonance, but w/e makes you most money I guess - not like I'm your customer anyway.

    2. Re:I absolutely agree by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's common in most things, behavior changes belief not visa versa. And it is very counter intuitive.

    3. Re:I absolutely agree by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I will not engage in the this freemium model anymore either. Not only do the freeloaders ask for more support than do customers, they bad mouth your product more as well.

      Yes, it's the first-world problem frequently seen any time Facebook changes their UI.

    4. Re:I absolutely agree by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The higher I set the price of software in the app store, the happier my customers are with the product. Go figure!?!?

      It's not really all that surprising. If you set the price high, only people who already have a good reason to believe that they'll be happy with the product will bother with it. You're pre-selecting for customers likely to give good reviews. If the price is low, people will be more likely to take the risk, and thus more likely to leave negative reviews.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    5. Re:I absolutely agree by craftycoder · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree, but it seems odd that a review of a product would have anything to do with its utility to you specifically. A review of software ought to be about whether it does what it claims to do and how well it does those things. To give something a bad review you don't care what it does is dumb, and yet people do it all the time. Putting a pay wall between users and software does filter out all those idiots thankfully.

      To set my app's price, I did an unscientific survey of what people considered "very expensive" and set my app to that price, $20. I filter out LOTS of the idiots. My users are very pleased and support costs are kept at bay. I'm very pleased with the results I've gotten.

    6. Re:I absolutely agree by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      Not only do the freeloaders ask for more support than do customers, they bad mouth your product more as well.

      Why are you expecting a paying customer to "bad mouth" your product as much or more than someone who properly realizes its lack of value to them?

      If you filter out enough potential customers, you'll be left with only the die-hard fans who are easy to please. That seems entirely intuitive to me.

    7. Re:I absolutely agree by craftycoder · · Score: 1

      Because a review of a product should have nothing to do with its utility to the user specifically. It should have to do with its ability to do what its claims to do. While a NASCAR race winning stock car has no utility to me personally, I could say that it is of high quality as evidenced by its winning a race. It claimed to be able to drive in circles very fast, and it in fact can drive in circles faster than any other car on the track that day. 5 stars

      In this example it would be stupid of me to say, "The car SUX. It has no doors and the DMV wouldn't let me license it." 1 star

    8. Re:I absolutely agree by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      That may be good criteria in a writing a professional review for a magazine. I don't particularly care for those. "Real" critics tend to overcompensate- either being too nice to maintain access, or being a dick to make people think they're superior and deserve the attention.

      Since I'm actually going to use the product/service, I'm more interested in the personal experiences of true peers. If many other people think your product is worthless, that can potentially be an invaluable piece of information to consider before I spend my money ("real" critics aren't actually making a cost-benefit decision).

      You don't deserve praise. You earn it. Want to avoid bad reviews? Don't give people serious issues to complain about. That way it's evident they aren't worth listening to because they are only posting negatively to vent after a bad day. That little hyperbole you provided? Yeah, that's very obvious and I ignore it. You should too. If you find that kind of "bad mouthing" disturbing you're not equipped for business, or for that matter an adult in modern society.

    9. Re:I absolutely agree by craftycoder · · Score: 1

      Well, you might be surprised at the crap reviews that come out. Put up a pay wall and the quality of the review goes way up. That is not to say that the the reviews are more positive, but they are better considered and more thoughtfully executed. This is just a symptom of the observation I've made that free stuff is valued less than the same thing that cost money. In fact, the more you charge the more the user values it my experience informs me. What the cost is and what its value is to the user should be totally unrelated for something like software which cannot generally be resold and yet people still appear to behave that way. I've offered similar software over the years to people that was either free (as a loss leader) or expensive. These are not controlled scientific studies, but my experience is long and instructive to me. I've learned my lesson.

    10. Re:I absolutely agree by Suddenly_Dead · · Score: 1

      I've noticed that many of the negative reviews for demo or "lite" versions of Android apps come down to (without any hyperbole whatsoever):

      "I really really love this app, but I can't afford $2 for the full version"

    11. Re:I absolutely agree by craftycoder · · Score: 1

      The concept that a person with a smart phone and cell phone contract can't afford $2 sounds disingenuous though. I know that is very bourgeois of me to say, but $2 is less than most product offers at Starbucks, less than it costs to park at most city lots, less than just about anything you can buy that will last as long as a perpetual license for a piece of software. Ultimately, I believe this has more to do with the basic devaluing of software. I've read other people's hypotheses that the world would be a very different place now if the Apple app store had set a minimum price for apps at $1. The idea being that getting people used to the idea that software can be free and therefore SHOULD be free is not helpful for people who either write or consume software. Software makers like myself need to eat and it ought not be a chore to convince people that they ought to pay for the software I produce. Like Starbucks, my largest expense is paying debt service on real property and paying for health insurance, NOT the basic ingredients that are going into my product. When I sell software the money goes to banks and insurance companies. This exactly where Starbucks money goes too. Just like the lions share of my money doesn't go to the Eclipse foundation or Oracle (my ingredients), Starbucks doesn't send the lions share of its money to coffee farmers. The same people who CAN'T afford the $2 for my work wouldn't think twice about dropping $4 on a "premium" coffee experience.

  16. People asked questions? by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    If you've done anything more than once you know people don't read what you post. I suspect his real anger is the number of people using the service for free compared to those that paid. Just in case someone else goes on one of these ventures...

    The geek in the family uses it for free. He/She then tells brothers, sisters, grandma, and grandpa. He/She tells them the process. Those people then pay. The he/she that asked questions and got back, "It is in the beautiful FAQ I lovingly wrote. IOW Please feel free to go fuck yourself.", never send info up the chain.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
  17. Linux is Free!? by na1led · · Score: 1

    What about all those who use Linux, it's free and I think most of those users appreciate their operating system a whole lot more than Windows users. I think the article has it backwards. It's not the Freemium model that causes users to be more demanding, it's Freeloaders (users) looking for free services who are demanding.

    --
    -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
  18. Article is crap... by maple_shaft · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This article is absolute crap and comes off as more of a rant from an unsuccessful entrepreneur with a lame idea than a legitimate logical article with a point.

    True some people really never intend on ever purchasing something, and brand influence can play a role, however they are a small subset and not necessarily the one that should be targeted. If you have a good idea that sells itself, and can actually make you realize that with the premium features you will get so much more then the majority of people will have a price they are willing to pay for it.

    Other factors to consider are coffee table/water cooler talk. Is your wife going to bitch at you for spending money on premium service for a Letter to Santa site? Maybe. How about if you pay for a premium Dropbox site because she struggles trying to send large groups of photos or other documents to her friends? Probably not if the price was reasonable.

    Further if the free service is too restricting or hard to use then potential clients may pass it up because risking ones time evaluating a product is acceptable to most people, but god forbid we pay $2 for a month of premium access to crap software. Then you have to worry about giving them your credit card information. Then you have to worry about their customer support giving you the run around when you call in 26 days and try to cancel the subscription from automatically renewing itself. To hell with all that. Even though its only $2, and we gladly pay more for a cup of coffee without thinking, we don't have to be stuck on the phone with Starbucks in a month trying to cancel future cups of coffee that we never really wanted.

  19. Almost Everyone Wants Products & Services for by JumperCable · · Score: 1

    'most people who want something for free will never, ever think of paying you, no matter how valuable they find your service.'

    The flaw with this statement is that pretty much everyone would prefer to have services and goods given to them for free. And while I do enjoy(ed) many free services, some were valuable enough and reasonably priced enough for me to want to upgrade or donate.

    Other services just were not valuable enough for me to want to pay for, or there were alternatives that were better, or stayed free, or the licensing terms were so onerous that it just wasn't worth the time and money.

    Pile on top of that, there are many many products out there that people will try for free. But after evaluation, they determine it isn't worth a dime to them or even wasting time with the product or service at all. The market place is filled with competitive products people just have no interest in. Why does the author think that free products or services are critically evaluated on a similar basis.

  20. Stupid Product Maybe? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

    Maybe a "higher resolution" letter from Santa for paying customers is just a stupid idea and this has nothing to do with the fee/paid business models?

    A bad product fails, regardless of price (with a few exceptions, things like Internet Explorer).

  21. letters from santa? really? what the fuck by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    that's his problem right there.
    besides, his customers did provide him with 50k unique letters from santa.

    but really his business model would have been better if he had said that his giving the profits to charity and pocketed the usual 10%.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  22. Affinity for your brand.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right there is the problem. It was all I could do not to throw up into the waste paper basket. Ass backward marketing wank speak. Brand comes into being after every thing else is in place thats where brand value comes from. You can set things up so that that value is recognised when it develops but short of manufacturing a fake brand to sell to an enterprise that has already has the other stuff in place 'brand' has little place in this equation.

  23. Freemium success by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Evernote begs to differ....

    1. Re:Freemium success by gander666 · · Score: 1

      I wish I kept the link. There was an interview with the founder of Evernote on this very topic. The conversion rate is miniscule, and while they can afford to keep the doors open, the number of paying customers is barely covering expenses.

      As a product manager, I do a lot of work on pricing, and Fremium is hard to get right. I will not categorically say it can't work, but your business model has to anticipate a very low conversion rate, and the fine balance between free and benefits for paid service are hard to do in the real world. The example of Dropbox with 4% of paying customers is huge. I pay, but my wife, who is thrilled with it, will never have a need to share more than 2G between her computers. But would dropbox be as successful is the free storage was only .5G?

      --
      Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress ... but I repeat myself. - Mark T
  24. Smarter than the anti-piracy schills... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    'most people who want something for free will never, ever think of paying you, no matter how valuable they find your service.'

    In other words, if you pirate and weren't going to pay for it in the first place, you shouldn't count it as lost revenue. And the DRM that stops them pirating doesn't make them pay (In other words, your company does still sustain a loss, a self-inflicted cost of DRM).

    Doesn't have anything to do with the site, but with all the recent piracy discussion, I figured it'd help the few slashdotter left that think piracy == stealing.

  25. People Highly Valued a Santa Letter Generator? by JumperCable · · Score: 1

    Shocked! Absolutely shocked I say that people would gladly accept a letter from Santa wizard when offered for free, but question is value if asked to pay for it. I don't see how on earth he came to the determination that people highly valued a Letter from Santa wizard? I call bullshit. Perhaps he asked in a follow up questionnaire. Sure people will respond favourably when there are no strings attached. But I wouldn't pay a dime for that service. 5 minutes with google images & Microsoft word and I have something pretty darn similar.

  26. Statistics? by Diddlbiker · · Score: 1

    "Nichols found free customers are higher maintenance and more demanding than the paying customers. 20 or so paying customers asked questions while "hundreds" of free ones did"
    That, of course, are meaningless statistics to draw conclusions from, without knowing the ratio between paying and non-paying customers. We also don't know what the questions were. If there are 50 freeloaders for every paying customer and each class of customer is asking questions at the same rate, those 20 paying customer questions will be matched by 1,000 non-paying customers -- "hundreds" would suggest that non-paying customers are less demanding.
    Also, the questions itself might differ. Maybe those non-paying customers where asking questions about the benefits of paying?

  27. It is his own fault. by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    You never offer tech support to free customers. Spell that out.

    "Free customers get ZERO tech support, your questions will go unanswered, you will have access to the WiKi for common answers."

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:It is his own fault. by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      "Free customers get ZERO tech support, your questions will go unanswered, you will have access to the WiKi for common answers."

      So you ignore perfectly valid bug reports from those users?

      Good business plan.

    2. Re:It is his own fault. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      No, they can report bugs. But I'm not responding to sally cheapskate on how to drag her X file into Z when it's not even supported.

      I never said ignore bug reports, Do you have someone living in your head making up things and inserting it into your thought stream?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  28. It's the payments stupid. by Tropaios · · Score: 1

    Even in 2012 online payments are a pain in the ass. I have to leave the site, log into Paypal, punch in my credit card number if it's not stored, then head back to the site to complete the transaction.

    The problem is that this is a hassle. I hate doing this. If the site used Google Wallet, well, I am almost always logged into Google anyway, and I'd never have to leave the site. Then maybe.

    Amazon makes buying easy, iTunes makes buying easy, the Android Market makes buying easy. These are the places I buy from.

    If he really wanted to make money he should have made it an iOS and Android app, charged 99 cents for it, let users make as many letters as the wanted and have the app generate PDFs and email them to the users. Have a free version that does low res black and white and the higher quality paid app.

    Just my 2 cents.

  29. He did it wrong by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Send non-paying customer questions to a queue that you look at "if you feel like it" and give paying customers a different address (or mechanism!) for support, maybe even a unique one so you know if they've given it away. Problem solved! You can glance over the queue to see if there's any improvements you should make, without having to actually respond to any of that email.

    Hilariously, ITworld registered me but I still don't know if they took my comment. When a site is even more incompetent than slashdot you wonder WTF.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  30. Q.E.D. by mapkinase · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Poor people are stingy and mean. In the Western society, divorced from any sensible unsociopathic ideology, that's the rule.

    There is no intrinsic good quality in being poor. All the good qualities associated with people in financial struggle come with conjuction with their non-materialistic beliefs - mainly, religion, education, upbringing.

    The job ALWAYS has to be paid. You can right a piece of software and put it out on sourceforge for free - that's personal entertainment. Support, bug fixing - ain't entertainment, it's hard work, and it should be paid.

    That's how open software works - code is free, but support is not.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    1. Re:Q.E.D. by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

      There is no intrinsic good quality in being poor. All the good qualities associated with people in financial struggle come with conjuction with their non-materialistic beliefs

      Well, yes and no. Yes, there is no intrinsic good quality in being poor. Or rich. Or male, female, black, white, American, Chinese, etc. Good is a subjective term that only applies to sentient beings (at least in the sense of good vs. evil), not objective states. That said, there are many good qualities typically associated with poor people much more so than rich people. Frugality, resourcefulness, valuing people over things, work ethic. Most people consider these good qualities, and they are often considered likely outcomes of growing up with financial burdens. While of course they aren't restricted only to the poor, nor guaranteed to the poor, a wealthy person that develops these qualities is seldom considered to have developed them b/c of his/her lack of financial burdens.

      --
      ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
    2. Re:Q.E.D. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor people are stingy and mean.

      So are the rich...

      There is no intrinsic good quality in being poor.

      A tautology?

      All the good qualities associated with people in financial struggle come with conjuction with their non-materialistic beliefs - mainly, religion, education, upbringing.

      Oh, you must be referring to anti-consumerism and/or economic anti-materialism. Not all of those who subscribe to that mentality are poor, and those that are poor would be a far cry from a majority (I'm thinking they're around 1%, though a majority may claim such things to appear optimistic). Thanks (at least) for not saying "damn hippies," but you could probably have phrased this a little less insultingly.

      The job ALWAYS has to be paid. You can right a piece of software and put it out on sourceforge for free - that's personal entertainment. Support, bug fixing - ain't entertainment, it's hard work, and it should be paid.

      That's how open software works - code is free, but support is not.

      Ever hear of volunteering? Community service? Ever been to a soup kitchen? Some people aren't as selfish as you appear to be. They are happy to give their time and effort for a good cause. This is what birthed Open Source Software. "Here, I made this for myself, but I'll bet it can help you too." "Gee thanks. There was a problem in how I used it, so I fixed it for you."

      Linus Torvalds did not make his kernel for "personal entertainment," he made it for his own education. He just happened to let people help him. Linux was a pretty usable product before it got financial support. Like many other software projects, there was a good support community (composed of unpaid volunteers) long before there was paid support (... is there paid support even today? You'd have to choose one of the commercial distros for that).

  31. I've seen "freemium" work... by mmalove · · Score: 2

    I've seen Freemium work, but as a model you have to truly understand the up and down points. It tends to work best where socialization is part of the service you're selling. IE if it's easier to send cards to someone else that's also a free member, then there's an inherent value to having someone as a free member even if they never spend a dime: they attract and create loyalty in other potential paying customers.

    This is why so many MMOs have latched onto the concept, and why it works for farmville and such. People only engage in these games because their friends also play: as solo experiences they are terrible and will quickly bleed customers.

    In short, freemium probably isn't a good model for his service if he's looking to make money, but the model should not be altogether disregarded. In some markets, it's very useful, and those ignoring it will be quickly undercut and eliminated by those employing it successfully.

    --
    You can get 15 minutes of fame, but you can go down in history for infamy.
  32. Favorite Quote by strimpster · · Score: 2

    Never... ever suggest they don’t have to pay you. What they pay for they’ll value. What they get for free they’ll take for granted and then demand as a right. Hold them up for all the market will bear. -Lois McMaster Bujold

  33. Companies give away their product for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Big and small companies make a handsome profit giving away open source software. Red Hat comes to mind. You could even argue that IBM bet the farm on open source.

    If you can't make money from freemium, you're doing something wrong.

  34. His service is already available from Canada Post by Walking+The+Walk · · Score: 1

    Maybe the problem is his business model: he's offering a service that is already available for free. Canada Post had 9,000 volunteers responding to Santa's letters and emails last year. If his competitors offer a similar or better service for free, why would he ever expect anyone to pay for his?

    --
    A recursive sig
    Can impart wisdom and truth
    Call proc signature()
  35. make em work for it instead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think Freemium meets Mechanical Turk. The service is exchanged for "labor" of which the site takes a (possibly large) slice of the remuneration.

    It seemed to instill an ethic in me as a child. Maybe it would work for the man-children of the interwebs as well.

  36. Too small an increment by AlecC · · Score: 1

    So it didn't work for one particular site. For which the increment for premium payment delivered only a small increment, as seen from many people's point of view. The free product was good enough, the premium not better.

    I don't think this invalidates the model at all, just this particular implementation. The value for the premium has to be perceptibly large. I have long subscribed to the This Is True newsletter, which has a premium version - 2 extra stories, no advertising, three days earlier. I see the extra value, and I want to keep the newsletter going. It works for him.

    --
    Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    1. Re:Too small an increment by brainzach · · Score: 1

      Exactly. There is no killer feature that you can justify paying extra for.

      They need to change the business model so that they can offer a better premium service to entice more people to buy.

  37. Skype, too by Asic+Eng · · Score: 2

    Skype is Freemium. You can make free calls from user to user, but if you want to call traditional phones you need to pay extra. If you want a traditional phone number you also pay. Seems to work.

  38. Freeware also... by Fringe · · Score: 1
    Okay, so he's new to the world... many years (decades-plural) ago, when Compute and PC Magazine ruled the earth, I wrote a bunch of freeware and shareware. Lots of awards from the various magazines, placements in the annual top-10s ,etc. Not much money though. I ran into lots of people who would tell me how much they loved my programs and used them constantly. But they'd get a rabbit-in-the-headlights look when I'd mention I don't recall their registration. There were few enough of those (and cheap - like $5) that I -could- remember them.

    I didn't really mind; it's how the world works. And the world doesn't change just because we give reality a new name.

  39. Um, actually you are wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Zynga's revenue for 2011 was roughly 1 billion:

    http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/12/15/so-whats-zynga-going-to-do-with-all-its-cash/

    EA's revenue for 2010 was roughly 3.65 billion, with roughly 800 million in 'digital revenues':

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

    So Zynga took in less than 1/3 what EA did this past year, still impressive, but quite far from beating EA so far.

    1. Re:Um, actually you are wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guess is that GP read something about Zynga having more growth than EA and got confused.

    2. Re:Um, actually you are wrong by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Zynga's revenue for 2011 was roughly 1 billion:

      http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2011/12/15/so-whats-zynga-going-to-do-with-all-its-cash/

      EA's revenue for 2010 was roughly 3.65 billion, with roughly 800 million in 'digital revenues':

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

      So Zynga took in less than 1/3 what EA did this past year, still impressive, but quite far from beating EA so far.

      In addition, revenue does not equal profit. What would be interesting was the net profit, how it was calculated, and the margins.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:Um, actually you are wrong by Fauxbo · · Score: 2

      I don't know what the margin is on virtual tractors, but I assume it's the metric buttloads.

  40. The wall by bshensky · · Score: 2

    Freemium doesn't work? Better tell the music industry.

    Joking aside...

    No one has figured out yet that the viability of the freemium model is dependent on the "size" and "slope" of the "wall" between free and paid customers. That wall, folks, is *price*.

    If you put up a simple, tall "wall" - an entry price point that is unusually high with no graduated options for consumer buy-in, then you will absolutely keep free users on their side of that "wall".

    Zynga has shown that with small, repeated purchase opportunities - basically a *series* of tiny *walls* to step over - you can convert a freeloader into a paying customer (and in some cases the customer won't even realize what they've done).

    Paying attention to my own behavior, I've noticed that the more reliable conversions to paid come from a low-grade but high-unit-cost pay-as-you-go option among a menu of options. See SimpleGEO and Zencoder for examples that apply to me specifically over this last month. Both have pricing plans that fit what I've described here.

    --
    Makin' money, makin' friends, makin' whoopee and wearin' Depends
  41. I tried this too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I set up a Santa letter site a few years ago. I think that the only way to actually make it work is to get active on the commission-based publisher sites and offer something like $1-2 per purchase. For me that was too time consuming, so I stopped. Anyone want to buy a ready to go business?

  42. Business Model Confusion by Software+Geek · · Score: 1

    The author doesn't seem to understand the difference between the Freemium and Donationware business models.

    In Donationware, you give away your product/service for free, and accept donations. Hopefully the donations bring in enough money...

    In Freemium, you give away one product/service for free, and sell a second service. For example, you give away peanuts and sell beer. Hopefully the presence of free peanuts makes people drink more beer...

    I tend to agree with the author that Donationware doesn't work very well. Most people have better places to give charity than to software developers.

    Freemium can be more successful precisely because customers are not buying the upgraded service out of charity. They're getting real value in exchange for their payment. But in order to work, the free service and upgrade service should not be in competition with one another. If done right, the better the free service is, the more free customers are generated, and this eventually results in more paying customers.

    The author's complaints seem to be that his customers complained about his peanuts, and didn't feel obligated to buy any beer. He should have made better peanuts, or just lived with the complaints. He should have made better beer, or found another business model.

  43. Re:His service is already available from Canada Po by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    weeeeeeeell, they did have to buy a stamp to send the original letter to santa, to the north pole no less, which costs money upfront, so not exactly free. The postal code ( how canada identifies mailing regions) Is pretty cool though- "H0H0H0"

  44. One Time Service by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

    Of course it doesn't work for a one-time service. People aren't going to send a free Letter From Santa and then decide to upgrade; they're only sending it once.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
  45. Your mails *are* spam by urdak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While he makes some interesting points, I think he misunderstands the spam issue, and why his users, especially free users, rightly marked his mail as "spam":

    If I look at spam I get, some of it is "random" spam. E.g., someone I never heard of trying to sell me viagra, or asking me to help smuggle $10,000,000 he stole while being the president of his country. But a growing percentage of the spam are people who confused a one-time business relationship with my desire to read all about them and their products for the next 20 years. E.g., I'm constantly getting mails from a particular hotel I once stayed at, mails from some company I once bought from, etc. People *hate* that, and it doesn't really help that they once used your services - they still hate the spam.

    But why did free users complain more? That's easy: Every paying user remembered you and your service, and most of them "forgave" the one time "thank you mail" (but be warned, they won't so easily forgive repeated annoyances). From the free users, a lot of them probably don't even remember what service you provided them. Heck, it is possible that half of them never even fully used (e.g., didn't even complete a card) or didn't enjoy your service, and you don't know that. These people have no recollection who you are, and thought that even a "thank you" letter was an outright spam.

    What should you do about the spam thing next time? Don't make the "I want to get mails" checkbox hidden in some long form and default to on. You have two options - either make it default to "off" (so only people who REALLY want to get your mails will get them, but be warned that few people will actually want that), or, if you want it to default to "on" make a very very clear screen which basically says "I'm giving you this service for free, in exchange for the right to mail you in the future. If you do not agree, or would consider such mails to be spam, please do not use this service.".

    1. Re:Your mails *are* spam by Monchanger · · Score: 1

      Completely agree. Opt-out was your choice as a business, and your fault if it has negative consequences. Don't blame us "abusive" customers who really don't understand or care if your server or feelings are hurt. We've got our own interests to look after and we can throw around the word "abusive" just as easily.

      Fact of the matter is that from a technical standpoint hitting the "Spam" button is far easier than unsubscribing. Safer too if I don't trust you'll actually unsubscribe me, or if someone's the type who is paranoid about the data you collect on them. Example? NewEgg unsubscribe links contain something like this: "?gLmkQSSTfd6rgbv%1DvG4GEE14GGy1xEf6beF3wfVaVUCVGf6be552W0G11Vfd6zdbv%5BvG4BOO14GGy1xEf63fQ8wfVXLX" - that's way more data than just the required email address and confirmation code.

      Gmail implemented a useful unsubscription feature over two years ago. Sadly, not many businesses take advantage of it. Another option - use a professional mail service so you don't have to worry about a handful of people who find the "spam" button more convenient than searching for a URL in your message.

    2. Re:Your mails *are* spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think perhaps more free users complained simply because there were vastly more free users.

  46. Dark Prophecy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And other free until you realize you have to pay or quit, How could that model work?

    Elite players spending 4.99 to outclass all free players regardless of prowess,
    and countdown clocks that very subtly prevent gameplay over time.

    Yea the game was free, Yea the paying players had numerous advantages
    but still you enjoyed the game and lvl'd up.... to the point where the game
    ends for free players.

    You pay for what you get, _DO NOT_ waste your time on free services that
    are functionally inferior in a meaningful way. Free stuff from sourceforge owns.
    but free stuff from corporate machines is always just another trap.

  47. Absolutely true everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is even true in consulting. Some people get it. Others just do NOT pay their bills no matter how much money you make them.

  48. Freemium always works by Kethinov · · Score: 1

    Why Freemium always works: even if you don't think your software business model is freemium, it still is. Piracy forces freemium on all business models. Either accept it and face reality, or be in denial like the author of this article.

    --
    You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
  49. just wow. by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    Such "personalized letters" are a horrible, heartless, dumb idea even with pen and paper. But this? YOU should be paying THEM for wasting even a drop of ink on such bullshit :/

  50. Cost can actually add value. by suprcvic · · Score: 2

    It seem like an oxymoron but in a sense, attaching a cost to something adds value to it. If somebody get's something for nothing, they will always expect it for free, regardless of anything you add to it that can be considered to increase it's value because it had no value to begin with. It's the old saying of why buy the cow when you get the milk for free. Now if you take that same service and start out by charging for it, you are building in a perceived value that the consumer psychologically attaches to it.

    Consumers who get something for free are always the most demanding, in my experience, because they possess a sense of entitlement. You (the merchant) OWE it to them. These types of consumers tend to fall into one of two categories (or maybe both):

    1. They don't understand the cost of doing business. For instance, I sell postage stamps which I have to pay face value for which is currently 44 cents. I charge 50 cents for a stamp and I have had a few cases of people accusing me of ripping them off. What they fail to understand is that not only am I offering them the convenience of not having to go to the post office, but the cost of that postage stamp isn't my only cost associated with operating my brick and mortar store. They tend to see it as I'm making a 6 cent profit when in reality, I'm probably actually losing money on it when you factor in rent, utilities and so on. This is a situation where convenience has become less and less costly almost to the point of being free (if not already) so people no longer perceive value in convenience.

    2. They think because I own my own business that I must be filthy rich. I wish that were the case, but much like many other people out there, I struggle financially in this economy, as do many other self-employed folks that I talk to. I also probably chose the wrong line of business to go into, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

    In my 2 years of business, I've found subtle ways to weed these people out and built a solid core of regular customers but the entitlement folks still pop in from time to time and when they see that I won't give them anything for free, I tend not to see them ever again.

    1. Re:Cost can actually add value. by SimplyGeek · · Score: 1

      I've been in your shoes. People who haven't have no idea what it's like. #1 really used to drive me insane, and then I just stopped caring about those idiots. #2 is just plain ignorance/liberalism. I try to ignore it.

  51. TL;DR by binford2k · · Score: 1

    * Developer offers shitty product and is upset when customers don't want to pay.
    * Developer doesn't understand that nobody wants to pay for a downloadable "higher resolution letter."
    * Developer trades shitty free product for spam and is upset when customers mark it as spam.
    * Developer doesn't get that people don't read privacy policies.

    Did I miss any?

  52. Bait and Switch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Per /. tradition, I have not RTFA.

    From my experience, this is not true. The problem is that a lot of developers / distributors of "free" software assume that, because it is free, you will be gladly willing to accept a poke in the eye with a stick. I.e., they can make buggy, badly-documented and/or dysfunctional software, then berate the user for complaining about it. If you're going to compare free to non-free, you need to compare solid, fully-functional and well-documented free software against similar non-free software.

    My time is worth something: it is absolutely *not* "free" if I have to spend 10 frustrating hours to determine that it was never going to work for my needs.

  53. Re:Earn your cutie mark by delinear · · Score: 2

    [spam removed]

    Is it free to play?

  54. Outside of software, the situation is the same by Kalvos · · Score: 2

    I have a long-term experience to relate. I'm already in an area that doesn't pay -- I'm a composer.

    My Bathory Opera site has been around a very long time and gathered lots of goth, vampire, and opera fans. Over the years I'd diligently answered their emails, provided research, and generally made it a useful site. So when it was finally time to produce the opera for about $25,000, I began fundraising. Of the 1,700 on my email list for the site, exactly five made contributions. The funds were raised from about 140 others (plus out-of-pocket) and the opera was eventually produced for about $27,500 (October 2011).

    Many others then said, oh, yes, as soon as the DVD comes out, I'll get one (add lots of "!!!!!!!"). It's been available for two weeks as a physical copy with an opening night souvenir book or as a download. Sales: 1.

    Yet these same folks continue to write, ask for information, photos, evaluations of their latest Bathory plays, etc. As long as their entertainment costs nothing, they're happy to play along.

    Dennis

    1. Re:Outside of software, the situation is the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem isn't freemium models. It's that you think you have a loyal fanbase from people who are essentially emailing you their fanfiction, on a website that looks like it was designed by the most stereotypical of angsty teenagers.

      Not to insult you, or your work, but whoever created your website seemed to have zero clue about how to create a professional design (if this was actually you, and you have learned about professional web design, then I guess this is an insult directed at you). If you're actually wanting to make this a profitable business, I suggest investing on a better public-facing front, and some creative marketing to gather a larger following.

      Getting $27,500 from 1700 people is a lofty goal from the start - these are random people on the internet, not wealthy investors - and getting 5 payments from a number that small is practically the norm for these things, freemium or not. It certainly is impressive that you gathered enough funds to complete your project, but next time, it may be worthwhile to have a more realistic perspective on the resources you can acquire.

  55. no business model just "works" by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

    We live in a free market. Businesses have the choice to use watever model they want. If a business model doesnt work for ur particular business then dont use it. But dont complain because others r successful using the same model that u cannot figure out how to drive a profit from. If u can not find any business model to make money then go out of business. I am not a supporter of the concept of artificially crippling progress to support old cash cows. Just because some model worked in the past doesnt mean we should reject those methods that undercut them and force people to move into jobs of the future. We dont really talk too much about how robotic systems replaced masses of workers in the manufacturing industry any more. Competition is what it is... the most lean companies providing the best service will always win in an open market and that is how it should be. If u seriously believe that there is less total money being spent on software worldwide then in the past... well u r wrong. There is lots of money to be made, it just comes through different channels and depends on reaching out to the world market. If u complain about open source software then I will tell you that perhaps the commercial version has reached its limits and it was time for it to be replaced. Do you really think ur browser software would be better if u paid for it?

  56. He's just annoyed that people wont accept his spam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He created a site that does a single thing, that people will only ever use once.
    His terms of service essentially said, "by using this service you agree to let me spam you indefinitely even though our business relationship is concluded in 5 minutes".
    People responded appropriately when his emails stated rolling in.

  57. Basically, TFA is a Whiney Rant by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    This article isn't about why offering a free service doesn't work. In fact, the author admits that his free service was actually quite successful in bringing in traffic. What failed was the author's attempt to monetize the traffic he generated. The mobile app market already figured this out: Make the free version chock full of annoying ads and you'll still be getting some income even if most people won't cough up the dough for the premium/full version.

    As several people have already pointed out, the e-mails he sent out are spam. E-mail lists should be opt-in and the user shouldn't have to play a game of "Where's Waldo?" for the little opt-out check box, when signing up for a website. If the default behavior for the sign-up form was "opt-in", the author deserved every single spam complaint sent his way.

    The bitching about technical support is his own fault. Don't want to offer free users technical support? Fine, don't provide contact information. Take a page out of eBay, Craigslist and Google's book - set up a user-to-user support forum and let people help each other. Or take the lazy route and just tell people if it breaks, they get to keep both parts.

    The author concludes that he won't be offering the free service again next year. Well, guess what, there's a golden opportunity here for someone to offer the same service and put a coin in their pocket in the process. If you've got a bunch of people in "Christmas shopping mode" telling you exactly what their kids want for Christmas - that's gotta be worth something to somebody.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  58. Picking your model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The freemium model works best when a customer adds value for other customers. This way each customer is a profit center, whether paying or not. An example is linked in, where nobody in their right mind would be a premium customer unless all those freeloaders were around. In the case of Tyler Nichols, a feeloader adds no value.

  59. cry me a river by decora · · Score: 1

    the purpose of computers is to serve customers, and if open source lowers prices for customers, its called 'capitalism'. artificial inefficiency is a hilarious thing to 'fight for' in a supposedly modern society. i imagine all these crying IT people never gave a second thought to all the factory workers etc they put out of work with their 'innovation'.'

  60. This isn't about freemium. It's about his site! by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 1

    This is a very common reaction: Deny categorically, the category or entity associated with my experiment (or experience).

    You can read reviews that exemplify this all the time. "I got screwed so I will never ever use them again. 1 out of 5." Will you always get screwed? Have you always been screwed? Will anyone reading the review get screwed? Not necessarily. Ergo, Verizon (insert your favorite company) survives.

    In any case, the blunt interpretation here is he created a spam site with problems, got complaints, and hardly anyone paid.... This really has little to do with freemium, and everything to do with why his venture failed... It sucked.

    On the topic of freemium, if a service is valuable, people will pay for it. There is no denying premium as a model. If a service is free, people will try it. There is no denying the free model either. If any service provides both free and premium services, it is by its very nature freemium. And with such a scheme so easy to setup with web based services, freemium will never go away, nor should it. Always offer what you can for free. It works, and there is no doubt about it.

     

  61. Uh.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, it doesn't work, IF...

    - you're a dev team of ONE
    - your customers are children (wtf?)
    - your target market are people who are using your product to ask for more free stuff (letters to Santa are the ultimate in asking for free!)
    - your competitors are really no different than you, and are free (the post office does it for free!)

    Done with freemium? Should be more like done with selling online products to children!

  62. Isn't it just a numbers game? by Business+Models · · Score: 1

    Yes, many freemium users may be forever freeloaders. However, don't some of them eventually buy but in smaller percentages? Look at H&R Block going to a freemium business model in the brick and mortar world.