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Journalist Arrested For Tweet Deported to Saudi Arabia
New submitter cosmicaug writes with an update to yesterday's report that journalist Hamza Kashgari had been arrested by Malaysian police acting on a request conveyed from the Saudi government via Interpol. Now, says the BBC, "Police confirmed to the BBC that Hamza Kashgari was sent back to Saudi Arabia on Sunday despite protests from human rights groups. Mr Kashgari's controversial tweet last week sparked more than 30,000 responses and several death threats. Insulting the prophet is considered blasphemous in Islam and is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia. Mr Kashgari, 23, fled Saudi Arabia last week and was detained upon his arrival in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur on Thursday." Writes cosmicaug: "Sadly, the most likely outcome is that they are going to execute this man for three tweets."
nt
As far as I know, most western countries have a policy that states "If a man will be executed upon being sent to a country, you are not allowed to send this man to the country, nor are you allowed to deport him to a country that may deport him to the country in question", or something similar. Disregard the lack of Lawyer shargon, but instead: Why was this rule not followed?
Separation of State and Church = good.
If you commit a crime, don't go to another country that also considers it a crime. If he had made it to Australia, he would have been ok. If he'd been spreading child porn in the US, a similar thing would have happened (although not executed, and who knows what kind of fair trial people get in SA).
Unless you have a way to show that one moral system is better than another, you can't say one country's laws and preferences are better than another.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
"Sadly, the most likely outcome is that they are going to execute this man for three tweets."
Why does Interpol even acknowledge this?!
What is even worse is that Interpol acknowledges blasphemy as a crime.
This may give the world the impression that religions have substance and may be respected.
That grant wishes get you every time.
Wont be long till it happens here in the USA.
Just a matter of time.
... of his citizenship send him to a country where apostasy isn't a crime?
Or would the number of tweets fom like minded citizens hoping to duplicate his fortune crash twitter's servers?
The US used to have the moral high ground to protest these sort of things. What a difference a decade makes.
Right. Okay. Uhm. How do you deport a tweet? /smartass
How much clearer does it need to be made to us, that our oil addiction is putting us in bed with some really, really objectionable regimes around the world?
Don't get me wrong, I'm no hippie on a bicycle, and I don't hate Muslims or their faith (at least, no more than I dislike Christians or Christianity) but when you've got nations involved in the whole "execution for apostasy" game, cut them off. Yes, geopolitics is hard, but we should never have let ourselves get put in a position where we'd support any regime like this.
My own pointless vanity vintage computing page
Everyone involved in this fiasco should resign immediately if not prosecuted. This is insanity. If this poor man is murdered for this, then I want to see Khoo Boon Hui and Ronald Noble's heads on pikes.
Just tell me where to buy the Mr. Fusion upgrade.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
With Islam, there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
Turn the clock back 600 years or so (the difference in age between Christianity an Islam) and look at the behavior of the Catholic Church.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
Have gnu, will travel.
No wonder they are all such fervent believers, they get killed if they aren't.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Interpol's constitution states:
"in order to ensure the widest possible cooperation between the police authorities of its member States, it is strictly forbidden for organization to undertake any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character."
http://www.interpol.int/About-INTERPOL/Legal-materials/The-Constitution
How the hell did this get through Interpol's bureaucracy?
Values:
With such a diverse group of men and women, the organization's values play a particularly important role in maintaining a harmonious and effective working environment. The INTERPOL General Secretariat defines its values through the following qualities:
Respect for human rights
Integrity
Commitment to quality
Availability
Team spirit
Value for money
Accountability
Source: http://www.interpol.int/Recruitment [interpol.int]
Action is taken within the limits of existing laws in different countries and in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Source: http://www.interpol.int/About-INTERPOL/Overview [interpol.int]
Turn the clock back 600 years or so (the difference in age between Christianity an Islam) and look at the behavior of the Catholic Church.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
The Spanish were ruled by the Muslims for almost 800 years. Think that in that time they just might have picked up a few unfortunate habits?
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
...or a wholesale child-raping institution...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
INTERPOL will gladly help radical religious tyrants to enforce their religious intolerance all around the world.
Do I have that right?
Ironic that we are in the 2nd Decade of the 21st Century, and anyone with the potential to make waves in any way is instantly charged/extradited/executed/crucified/smeared publicly, no matter where they are. Examples: Man tweets relatively insignificant crap about Mohammed - extradited to KSA and charged with Apostasy/Death Penalty. Man/Peace Activist in 70s reveals Israel has Nkes/WMDs - gets instant life-in-prison in Israel. Man leaks government war/diplomacy documents on the web - Charged with raping 2 women in Sweden/extradition to U.S. and Life Sentence Wanted (some want him executed, too). Socialist/Lefty Man gets ready to challenge Sarkozy presidency in France - charged with sudden nude sex assault on chamber maid in Manhattan Hotel, arrested on way to NY Airport, supposedly prevented from "fleeing" to France. British Man hacks U.S. gov computers looking for "UFO and Free Energy Evidence" - spends 10 years in will-he-be-extradited-to-USA-or-not-? limbo. The cases may be different, but the point of the actions taken against each man is the same. Punish-Him-And-Make-An-Example-Of-Him. Whether the laws should actually work this way is anybody's guess...
Why did the chicken cross the road? Because Elon Musk put an AI chip in its head.
fuck you islam
fuck you muhammed
and people say islam is a religion of peace.
"then again atheists aren't as likely to burn your house down" - Yhatzee
Sorry. I must have missed the bit about all the torture and burning at the stake done by Muslims during that period. It seems to have fallen through the cracks of a culture that tolerated Christians, Jews and others.
Its much more likely that today's Islam has picked up a few bad habits from Christians' past.
Have gnu, will travel.
According to the 10 Commandments: "Thou shalt not kill" It's strange that society and religion can re-interpret this to their perspective instead of standing on the reality of the meaning. It also goes to show that, as a "monotheistic" religion, Islam puts Mohammed above all other humans - and even God; wherein lies the inherent problem. This is exactly how Islam creates enemies - of it's own volition - and creates fear throughout the non-muslim world. Very sad, very sad. I'm fairly certain that God would think of this (and all other religious executions) as being an insult to His Creation.
YankDownUnder Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire
Man there's a heck of a lot of trolls commenting here.
Look, this is a problem of dictatorship, not of religion. The majority of the world's Muslims live in democracies and don't have such repressive laws. Muslims in America are aghast at such an unjust situation. Saudi is the backwards exception in the Muslim world. I'm a Muslim and I certainly don't support what's going on here.
Just tell me where to buy the Mr. Fusion upgrade.
What is trying to be done is to develop alternative or "green" energy. Unfortunately with the rancorous political dialog here in the US, it's being dragged down.
I firmly believe that the only way for us in the US to fully develop other energy sources is for government involvement. I agree, it's not the best solution but US business is too short sighted to pursue that avenue on its own - and part of their short shortsightedness is from Wall Street pressure - got to have immediate returns, after all.
In the meantime, all of the cutting edge alternative energy developments are being done in Europe and in China.
I find that quite damning of our political and business environment.
So, those Saudi assholes are going to keep doing their shit for a very long time - no thanks to us, the US.
With Islam, there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
Turn the clock back 600 years or so (the difference in age between Christianity an Islam) and look at the behavior of the Catholic Church.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
Except for the fact that the Spanish Inquisition was independent from the Catholic Church (as an organization), it was founded by the Spanish monarchs to take control over the Inquisition tribunals and so it served the monarchy, not the Church.
Moreover 600 hundreds years ago secular trials weren't better than the Inquisition (actually they were worse).
they only tolerated those who accepted being in Dhimmitude... a second class status... something these medieval tw@ts want to inflict upon the entire world right now...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
But why should we?
This isn't a person's development we're talking about, where we can dismiss it by going "oh, poor Islam, his brain just isn't fully developed yet. Give him some time."
This is an organization who has had a dozen lifetimes just in your 600 year timeframe to watch and to see how things work without being insecure, murderous pricks, and that's not to mention the however many more lifetimes they have had to "mature" to begin with. At this point there is little to say but that they are actively rejecting the concept.
This is not a defense of Christianity, nor is it some ridiculous finger pointing as to who started it; I think all religions are a pox upon the world. But the idea that Islam somehow should get an extra 600 years to find itself before being criticized as extremist or intolerant is ludicrous. It's not the middle ages anymore.
If I thought it'd work, I'd militate for Canada to pull out of Interpol right now.
As Jack O'Neill said, "if at first you don't succeed, try, try, try, try, try and try again."
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
There's a tendency to think that the US is above all this -- that Bertrand Russell's famous saying ("Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines.") refers not to the future, but to the past, and that we have all somehow become enlightened, that we've matured out of these primitive superstitions along with the violence, hatred, prejudice, bigotry, slavery, and ignorance that they support.
But we haven't. Let me suggest the following thought experiment to you: write on a large piece of posterboard "I skullfucked Mary and shit on Jesus' face." Now go stand with that poster on a streetcorner in Topeka, Kansas at 9 AM on Monday morning. Do you think you'll survive the day?
Of course these are purely mythical creatures, no more real than Arthur Dent or Allah or Harry Potter or Zeus or Loki or any other fiction. But, amazing, there are people on this planet -- including in Topeka, Kansas, in the heart of the United States -- who will attack and kill you for that sign.
Some will point out that at least this isn't codified into law: that is, that such attacks are extralegal. My response to that is (a) not yet, they aren't, although if you're paying any attention to contemporary American politics you know full well that there are numerous attempts underway to make Christianity the state religion and (b) it's not clear to me why, when you're lying in the street bleeding and dying, the lack of statutory authority will matter to you.
When we in the United States have progressed beyond this -- when we no longer live in a society where atheists are considered as trustworthy as rapists -- then perhaps we can claim some measure of the moral high ground here.
Okay, I'm being an irresponsible arse here, but maybe - just maybe - those other muslims around the world, you know, the "moderates", should think about distancing themselves from the barbaric ones. If your frail mind cannot live on without religion, then at least splinter off into something that does not carry the weight of homicidally intolerant pre-civilized cultures.
Yeah, I'm an atheist, but I can respect freedom of faith. I just don't respect the use of that faith as an excuse to murder your fellow man in cold blood. I've known my share of muslims over here, and while they seemed a bit stuck-up against my amoral libertarian lifestyle, they did not express any desire to harm me for sharing my tales of rock-star antics. I would dare say they had a more progressive outlook on humanity than most of the purebred white folk I grew up with. Sure, there was this one guy who pulled a gun on me because I said he looked hot... but he went right the fuck back to Lebanon a week later.
What I'm saying is: faith is just faith, a belief system that breaks your fall when life knocks you down. The problem with the middle east is not Islam, the problem is their intolerant backwoods inbred leaders twisting that faith into a weapon of self genocide. Get rid of those charismatic leaders and the problem will resolve itself.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
Wrong.
Upward mobility is a slippery slope - the higher you climb the more you show your ass.
Wait, so you're judging a 1.5 Billion follower religion based on what a dictator of a small country decreed as a law? Saudi Arabia's population is less than 2% of all Muslims, but that's even less relevant because it's a dictatorship. The majority of the world's Muslims do not support what's going on here.
Well, a strange name they got for Khorne though. What is it again, "Allah"? Anyway, god needs more killings.
Hey, at least they had a place for the not believers in their society. In countries with a state church (Catholic or some Protestant sect), they didn't label them Dhimmi (actually, a protected class with certain rights under Sharia). They just called them dead.
Have gnu, will travel.
I just get your cellphone when you are not looking in Saudi Arabia and insult the prophet!
Now that is a modern, well educated, socially forward thinking type of government...yeah!
Islam IS a religion of peace. One of its core values is nothing can be done in anger. No war, no death, no judgement. If you feel anger during any of these actions, you are forbidden, by god (allah) to carry them out. This is intended to promote rational thought and remove emotion from the equation. I am new to the religion and do not recall the details (names etc) of the story, but there is a passage in the Quran where a religious soldier is about to kill an infidel during a holy war. Just before striking the final blow, the infidel spits in the soldiers face. The soldier can no longer kill him, because he feels hatred for him. This story can be interpreted many ways. I find it similar to having judges oversee a trial they have a personal opinion about. I find it similar to religious figures interfering in government decision making. I'm not saying Islam is any better than any other religion, or more peaceful.
The problem is, like all religions, there are people who choose to follow parts of it and ignore other parts. Often taking the parts they choose to follow to tangential extremes. Every religion has fundamentalist and up until the past century (correct me if I'm wrong, which is entirely possible) many countries were still controlled by religion fundamentalists from most religions. Thankfully today, most Western countries are moving away from this. There are Eastern and Middle Eastern countries which still have a way to go.
All religion is bad, but the past of Christian superstition doesn't make CURRENT Islam less toxic!
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Another petition for Hamza Kashgari. This one for getting the US State Department to put pressure on Saudi Arabia. I suspect any such pressure would be useless:
http://www.change.org/petitions/us-state-department-save-hamza-kashgari
citation needed. Besides, the Quran specifically says forced conversion is forbidden (2:256)
Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Islam_2
Bad people will always use religion to justify their actions. To deny that they are happening helps no one. To accept that they are happening, and need to change is a step on the road to tolerance.
I do not believe that the majority of Islam's current followers do not want violence or to oppress those who do not agree with them (so long as THEY aren't trying to impose their views on them), however so long as the Vocal Minority of people willing to pervert or subvert religion (whatever that religion) in pursuit of their own goals is all that people see in the media, their view of that religion will BE perverted and subverted.
This happened in the 80's/90's with the Evangelical movement when preacher after preacher kept showing up in tabloid and scandal after scandal. It happened in the 90's/00's with the Catholic religion when the main thing people saw in the news was the abuse of underage parishioners by clergy. We're see ing it now in the 00's/10's with Islam where the radical Imams and their followers. Hopefully the non-radical element will gain strength, support, and a larger voice.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
We buy our oil from Singapore which is about $0.20 dearer then WTI or Brent crude.
/Smug mode.
Now not buying oil from them wont make them stop acting like idiots, they'll just be poor idiots. Even that is unlikely as they aren't going to run out of customers for their oil any time soon. But yes, the US should pull support from the Saudi's for many more reasons then this, that means pulling US forces out of Saudi bases (even the logistic bases) and stop selling them weapons.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
With Islam, there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
Turn the clock back 600 years or so (the difference in age between Christianity an Islam) and look at the behavior of the Catholic Church.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
I expected it, I had my comfy chair out in preparation.
It's a good analogy though, people forget that Christianity used to be as bad as Islam, if not worse. If it still had power Christianity would rival Islam in it's idiocy. The only reason we have rights for women, gays and in many cases, blacks is because people stopped believing in the invisible sky man and figured out that man determines his own destiny, not some fictitious creator.
People like to beleive that Christianity is better when in fact, it's just not powerful enough to get away with it. Take a look at the kiddie fiddling in the church of today and how practically nothing is done about it.
"Moderate" religion exists in places where religion does not hold power. The best way to reduce the power of religion is to drag more people into the middle class. This is the big difference between most Islamic countries and the west. In the west, the average person has money, a comfortable life. He does not need to seek a religious fantasy to give them hope that they could have a better life. The average person in the Middle east is dirt poor, working substance jobs or if they are lucky, for a pittance. You can bet your bottom dollar these people are moderate, they're just powerless. Much like in Christian countries a few hundred years ago, religion is wielded by the powerful few and used as a club to keep people under their heel. The old saying "religion is the opiate of the masses", so keeping a disenfranchised population "high" is a good way to keep them from rising up against a dictator.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Someone in jail for making threats.
... then they would forge postings defaming Mohammed from all the nutcases who have called for this guy's punishment. Let's see how quickly things would change.
Because prosecution of thought crimes requires thoughtless order following.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
Salem witch process. Other witch execution. It can hardly be seen as non-religious "you shall suffer no witch".
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
18 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
The islam-bashing is completely justified. Every muslim country in the world, to varying degrees, ill-treats its non-muslim minorities, has penalities for women who get raped, major sentencing for apostasy from islam, and so on. Saudi Arabia is among the most visible, but in other countries, in Egypt, they persecute Copts, in Iraq, all Christians have fled once it became 'democratic', in Pakistan, persecution of Christians and Hindus is at an all time high, as in Malaysia, where dead Hindus or Christians are posthumously declared converted. The few Jews left in Tunisia are now considering fleeing, and Maldives just has a new Islamic regime.
If you want to judge this population wise, take Indonesia, Pakistan and Bangladesh. In Indonesia, persecution of Christians and Ahmadiyas is on in full swing, and the government in Jakarta has gone so far as to accept Sharia in Aceh. In Pakistan, as I noted above, persecution of Christians and Hindus are at their maximum, national support for Osama remains high (make that 200 million out of your 1.5 billion right there) and even in Bangladesh, Hindus have by & large fled that country.
The only muslim countries that can be considered benign - for now - are the ex-Soviet stans, but even there, there is a campaign to islamize them, as well as China's Xinxiang province, and recreate a Timuride era Turkestan that would be another oil rich (from Turkmenistan & Kazakhstan) empire that would vie with the GCC for the Emir ul Momineen title.
Another reason I'll probably never leave the borders of the USA. At least (for now) we still have freedom of speech. Now, with our muslim president, I guess if someone over here insulted their "god" he would probably round them up & ship them off to Iran to be hung. You can insult just about any religion in the USA you want, but, if you insult islam, OFF WITH YOUR HEAD LOL.
Malaysia = 19 is better ranked than USA = 82 in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index
Casteism
It's relevant because we learn from history. Or we're doomed to repeat it.
Christianity was what Islam is now. So Christians need to drop the 'we're better then you' crap. But Muslims need to take a lesson from the moderating influences of the West's Renaissance and Enlightenment. And not drag themselves through the same centuries of crap that we put up with in the name of Christianity.
Have gnu, will travel.
Guess you're right but I'm still getting somewhat warm feeling imagining spoiled American (you know the kind I mean) crook coming to kick back to Saudi Arabia. After few years there, that plea bargain deal might look pretty appealing, especially if it includes a part about not going into some max security hell.
Troll 2.0 Fear my asocial networking!
Let's face it. Living in one of the most oppressive Islamic countries, he decides to post his heretical opinion on a public website. Having done that, he chose to flee to ANOTHER Sharia loving state. WTF was he thinking? What did he expect would happen?
And if his death sentence is carried out, what will it have achieved for him, or for the cause of free speech in Saudi Arabia?
Either keep your head down and don't post inflammatory content in a country where the price you pay is your life, or cover your tracks online, or run like hell to a friendlier country BEFORE you express your opinion!
"..One hosts to look them up, one DNS to find them, and in the darkness BIND them."