Microsoft Killing Off Zune, Windows Live Brands?

suraj.sun writes with this excerpt from The Verge: "Microsoft appears to be killing off two of its key user-facing brands with the upcoming Consumer Preview release of Windows 8. Windows Live applications have been rolled into preinstalled apps that work as the core 'Windows Communications' applications for Windows 8, and this lack of Windows Live branding is only the tip of the iceberg. 'Microsoft Account' will replace Windows Live ID in Windows 8, and the software giant has also removed traces of Zune from its Windows Store, Music, and Video applications, although Zune Pass functionality remains."

Comments

Great

[Billly Gates]

So now we have that annoying Bing Bar in desktop mode and the annoying family safety program that slows your computer down even if you do not use it

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[masternerdguy]

You know real nerds can just disable unwanted services.

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[MightyMartian]

Yes. It's called installing Chrome or Firefox.

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[afidel]

Chrome and Firefox both integrate with the family safety API on Windows just fine....

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[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't intend to use it, then don't install it?

It's a suite of applications for a variety of users with different needs. Uncheck the software that doesn't suit your needs at install time.

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[masternerdguy]

So take a trip to services and regedit.

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[Ouchie]

You still have the ability to configure the windows install. In Windows 7 it is in the add/remove programs you have a link that says turn windows features on or off. I'm in the middle of something right now and don't want to reboot to 8, otherwise I'd see if they moved it. I would figure that Billy Gates would know this, maybe you could ask Stevie Balmer.

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[afidel]

My point was installing Chrome or Firefox does nothing to help with the "problem" of having the family protection service running.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. It's called installing Chrome or Firefox.

No, it's called FDISK

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[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, It's just that simple!

Except that so many of us buy Laptops and Desktops which are pre-installed with garbage, and even the Factory Restore Disks are locked into the BIOS, and only run a pre-configured immutable install script, that is designed with copy protection to prevent sharing and piracy.

Oh but wait, they don't even provide factory install disks anymore. Now it's an opaque, locked-down UEFI boot partition that can only dump a restore image or get DBAN'd.

So then! What becomes our option? Oh! Ohhhh... ho ho ho! Guess what. Don't like it? Then march your ass down to the store and shell out an extra $200.00 bucks for the privilege of controlling your very own private and precious Windows intallation.

Is this not accurate? Please explain how.

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[Grishnakh]

I don't see the problem. If you like Windows, you should be happy to pay $200-500 for a fully-featured copy that allows you to control the installation and not have it loaded with crapware from Norton et al.

If you don't like that, I suggest you look into alternatives. Personally, I think MS's prices are much too low, and that they should jack up their prices.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that I already paid for the Windows license when I bought the fucking computer. It's *MY* license. I already paid for it. It didn't get bundled in the package for free.

The only reason people even buy locked-down Windows machines simply because they are cheaper than locked-down Macs. They don't buy a PC because they like Windows. Nobody *likes* Windows.

Honestly, I hate Macs for the exact same reasons, but when it comes down to it, the only difference it that they're prettier and more expensive.

So, if I have to shell out an extra 10% of the original purchase price, just to gain control over the contents of my own hard drive, fuck it. I may as well buy a Mac. They cost the same, and suck the same, at that point.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Right, like using services.msc or going into the Add/Remove Windows Components.

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[Grishnakh]

You didn't pay for a "Windows" license, you paid for a license for a version of Windows that is configured in one particular way and loaded down with a bunch of shitware. What you're doing is like buying a Chevy Aveo (with a big discount in exchange for having ads pasted to the side of the car) and then complaining that you didn't get a Corvette.

Macs are more expensive partially because they're not loaded with shitware. The shitware makes a big difference in price; that's how the mfgrs are able to sell you a laptop with Windows for less than the same laptop with Linux (which itself is free): your cost is being subsidized by all the pre-loaded shitware. By being forced to spend $300 or whatever for a fully-featured Windows license, you're only being forced to realize the true cost of the software. Of course, the preloaded Windows versions also frequently have various limitations that the higher-cost versions don't, hence the "Starter" edition which only lets you run 3 programs at a time, etc.

Comparing a shitware-loaded OEM Windows version to a Mac is apples and oranges. If the version of Windows you want ends up making your system cost as much as a Mac, then that shows that Windows isn't, in reality, any cheaper, it only appears that way when you use crippled versions and/or various vendor marketing deals that subsidize the cost.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's more like buying a CHEVROLET CORVETTE only to find out after the purchase that the Corvette has an Aveo engine and the trunk is full of crap from the 99-Cent store, some of which has leaky bottles and will now require hours of cleanup just to return to the "empty trunk" one would expect when buying a new car.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't pay for a "Windows" license,

Yes I did.

Macs are more expensive partially because they're not loaded with shitware.

I paid for the CPU, memory, motherboard, disk and video I wanted and it was still cheaper. No bloatware.. MACs don't let me select my hardware.

Comparing a shitware-loaded OEM Windows version to a Mac is apples and oranges.

What does it take a few minutes to either reinstall or delete bloatware? Who cares?.. If you buy from an OEM that goes crazy with bloatware next time pick a different OEM. See you have a *choice*.

hence the "Starter" edition which only lets you run 3 programs at a time, etc.

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

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[s.petry]

The shitware makes a big difference in price; that's how the mfgrs are able to sell you a laptop with Windows for less than the same laptop with Linux (which itself is free): your cost is being subsidized by all the pre-loaded shitware. By being forced to spend $300 or whatever for a fully-featured Windows license, you're only being forced to realize the true cost of the software. Of course, the preloaded Windows versions also frequently have various limitations that the higher-cost versions don't, hence the "Starter" edition which only lets you run 3 programs at a time, etc.

Comparing a shitware-loaded OEM Windows version to a Mac is apples and oranges. If the version of Windows you want ends up making your system cost as much as a Mac, then that shows that Windows isn't, in reality, any cheaper, it only appears that way when you use crippled versions and/or various vendor marketing deals that subsidize the cost.

I guess you missed the whole anti-trust case, or should I say "all of them" where Microsoft forces vendors to pre-load Windows in order to keep on the approved list and get bulk discounts right? I guess the cruft that some vendors bloat on to the box may help them a bit with cost, the real issue is much easier to follow. M$ lays out guide lines. VARs must follow those guide lines or be black listed from the M$ approved and published VAR list.

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[aztracker1]

I don't think Windows' pricing is bad at all, you can buy an off the shelf OEM copy from newegg/amazon for a pretty good price (licensed for one machine only). Even then, if you have a full install disk, you can just use the registration key on the bottom/side of the computer for installation/activation. I do this a lot to get a clean machine.. install the necessary mfg drivers after a clean install and updates (the updates are what takes forever, time for a Win7 SP). I really wish they'd do an update iso download quarterly.

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[Grishnakh]

Close: it's like buying that Corvette (with Aveo engine and leaky crap from the 99-cent store) for $10K, and then complaining that it's not as good as the normal price Corvette (which costs $50K IIRC).

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[Grishnakh]

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

I did:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only

>You didn't pay for a "Windows" license,
Yes I did.

No, you didn't. You paid for a stripped-down, limited version of Windows. You want the full-blown version of Windows? Go buy it separately, and be prepared to open your wallet wide. "Windows" isn't a single product, it's a big family of different products at different price-points.

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[Grishnakh]

I don't give a rip how much of a discount they give vendors, they're not giving away Windows for free. There's still some cost in there, antitrust or not. But, every time someone sells laptops with Linux pre-installed, it costs more than the same hardware with Windows pre-installed. The reason is simple: it's not some big conspiracy, it's because the vendors are getting money from the shitware companies (Norton etc.) to pre-load that shitware. It really has nothing to do with MS at all (although obviously the vendor gets better deals from MS in return for various concessions). You want a laptop with a cheap price with Windows pre-installed? Be prepared to have a lot of pre-loaded shitware on there. That's the cost of the deal. It's like hiring a company to put a new roof on your house, and they give you a discount in exchange for you posting a big sign in your front yard advertising their company for a month. Don't like the deal? Get your laptop somewhere else, get the "business class" version that doesn't have the shitware (and a correspondingly higher price tag), or buy a boxed, fully-featured version of Windows from MS and install that.

MS's special deals with vendors are mostly irrelevant to this conversation, because we're talking about someone (the OP) who apparently really wants Windows, so this is really just a discussion over Windows pricing between its various products (and between the ways it's sold to end-users, with various package deals and bundling). As for Macs, if anything they have a big advantage over Windows-on-$vendor systems, because they make both the HW and OS, and keep all the profit. MS can offer better deals to the vendors, but they can't give their product away for free; Windows is their cash cow, and they're not going to make any money on it if they give it away for free, so the best they can do is make it cheaper, and encourage vendors to work with shitware vendors with these subsidization deals to get the consumer costs even lower (which will be made up for by sales of shitware, such as antivirus software which isn't needed on other OSes). Apple OTOH doesn't care if they make a profit on their OS, just that they make a (handsome) profit on their sales of Mac hardware that happens to have their OS preloaded. If Apple wants to give away their OS for free to make their laptops cheaper, they can do that; MS can't, since they don't make laptops.

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[fast turtle]

sorry but you don't have to pay 200-500 for a full copy of windows to do that. All you need is a valid copy of any Win7+ disc in order to do a clean install. Activation will require the use of the product license key that's placed on the machine for OEM installs and MS will validate such an install over the net - I've done this with a single Win7 Upgrade set for all the systems in the house and had no problems with MS about validation. When I or one of the customers I support purchase a new system, that's the first thing I do after ensuring I have all the specific hardware drivers on a flash disk (particularly the network - dialup/ethernet/wi-fi) before I nuke it. Cheap and only requires a single upgrade set (32/64bit copies) to do this.

Yea the price MS is charging for Office Home-School version is pretty cheap. It's only $150 for three systems from the same disk. They should be charging $70 per seat in order to be the same price as the single seat version of Home and Business. The only difference is the Inclusion of Outlook.

If it was just me, I'd seriously look at the new Home and Business bundle for another $80 as it gives me the ability to install on a desktop and laptop but if you don't need Outlook get the home and school version because it gives you 3 seats w/o Outlook.

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[Anonymous Coward]

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

I did:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only

Yeah, they were thinking about it, and then 3 weeks later dropped that.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9133694/Microsoft_kills_Windows_7_Starter_s_3_app_limit

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[mcgrew]

On Linux.

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[ChatHuant]

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

I did:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only

No, you didn't. You're just spreading FUD. See here.

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[Barlo_Mung_42]

Going to have to call bullshit. Macs are more expensive because Apple has found that people are willing to pay extra for the apple logo. Their marketing people have done a fantastic job inflating perceived brand value.
If you buy a computer through the MS Store it comes without any shitware. If your theory were correct it would be more expensive than the same unit sold with shitware. It isn't.

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[jimicus]

Technically you can't unless you're planning to resell the PC you install it on. It probably doesn't bother many individuals, but it bothers businesses.

Personally, I suspect the number of people who actually buy the complete, full, non-upgrade, non-OEM version of Windows is negligible. You usually get it with the PC you buy; corporates may well buy a site license to allow them to push out the same image on everything (another thing that's banned with the OEM copy that came with your PC) and upgrade existing systems.

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[Anonymous Coward]

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

I did:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only

Damn I better stop running more than 3 applications at a time on my laptop before Microsoft sues me.

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[Grishnakh]

At the time my link was posted, it was correct. I can't be bothered to keep up on every single little development in MS-land. The fact is the 3-app limit was their plan, even if they changed their mind later.

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[Grishnakh]

Why don't you shut the fuck up, asshole? My main point is fine, and I don't give a shit if one tiny fucking detail is obsolete. Fuck you.

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[crutchy]

pffft... you idiot. "real" nerds avoid anything microsoft like the plague and use linux, and have little idea what all the hype is about.

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[crutchy]

i think you really meant "debian netinstall cd" (only morons use ubuntu after all)

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[Ol Olsoc]

Going to have to call bullshit. Macs are more expensive because Apple has found that people are willing to pay extra for the apple logo. Their marketing people have done a fantastic job inflating perceived brand value.

Yeah, that must be it. I've ran and supported both since the mid 80's. PC's took most of the support, and the Apples just worked, which is why I had one at my work desk since the IIcx. After my recent retirement, I finally bought my first home Mac. And haven't looked back

I still have 3 PC's but they aren't being replaced by another one when they go obsolete. So come on, spare us the "Mac users are stupid, and only buy them because Apple markets them so well" inference. That's some pretty old Kool-Aid there.

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[crutchy]

might be the case for laptops, but i can go down to my local computer outlet and buy a bunch of bits for less than half the cost of the equivalent OEM box. only ignorant fools buy an OEM desktop for linux

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[crutchy]

i have a whole bunch of valid Windows XP Pro OEM keys but I can't use them because I don't have a Windows XP Pro OEM install disc. I have full, upgrade and home install discs, but they don't work. You would think someone who went out and paid for any Windows disc could use that disc for multiple legit OEM keys as well. silly me

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[Grishnakh]

What the fuck is your problem, asshole?

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[rvw]

Comparing a shitware-loaded OEM Windows version to a Mac is apples and oranges.

It's not apples and oranges, it's windows and apples, and the apples are really good for throwing at those windows. And see how they break...

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[Anonymous Coward]

If you mean windows starter edition you can run as many programs at once as you want. check your facts before posting.

I did:
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/04/21/1356245/windows-7-starter-edition-3-apps-only

Don't believe everything you hear on the Internet..especially something you heard off Slashdot for crying out loud.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/products/windows-7-starter-top-questions

See number 6 on the list.

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[Grishnakh]

When the fuck did I even say I liked Windows? I was talking to someone who apparently does, and is complaining about the price. I personally don't like Windows, so I don't pay anything for it, I don't buy it at all. My advice was that, if you like it so much, you shouldn't be so worried about the price. And if you don't like it very much, but got it for cheap/free with one of those OEM (w/ added shitware) versions, then you have little cause to complain.

There's actually people who like Pontiac Azteks out there too (http://www.aztekfanclub.com/), even though most people think they're hideous (me included). Don't ask me to explain it. But just like there's people who like Azteks, there's also people who like Windows. And if someone hates Azteks, but buys one anyway because it's really cheap, then I don't think they have any cause to complain about it being so ugly.

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[hairyfeet]

Actually one of the few smart things they are doing with Win 8 is they are FINALLY gonna have services that start when they are called and stop when they are no longer needed, most likely because the sweaty monkey still thinks he can sell a WinPhone and WinTab so if you don't set any family settings the service won't actually be running so no worries there.

What IS a huge worry is how a company with THAT many engineers can't see the giant screaming FAIL in 50 foot letters! I mean first they tried to jam the Windows desktop metaphor onto phones, complete with teeny tiny start button even though its a completely different form factor and when that fails miserably what do they do? they go "Herp derp i know, we'll stick the Windows tablet UI on the desktop!" which shows that anyone with common sense has done left that company for Google> I mean HOW many desktops and laptops were sold with touch enabled screens this year? MAYBE .03% of the entire market? hell take out Kiosks and POS machines and that number is probably something like 0.001% of the world PC market. So what fucking moron thinks jamming a touch focused UI on something WITHOUT A TOUCHSCREEN is a brilliant idea? Anyone? Beuller?

The ONLY thing I can think of that makes sense is the engineers have frankly gotten sick of Ballmer's Apple fetish and bullshit and are letting him have everything he wants in the hopes he'll flame so badly that even being Bill's little buddy won't save his sweaty ass. I can imagine them going "Sure Mr Ballmer (snicker) having a cell phone UI on the desktop IS a brilliant idea (chokes back a laugh) and yes sir i bet this will finally make us a "cool and hip" company like Apple (rushes to hang up phone before they bust out laughing)". But hey, don't take my word for what a big heaping of fail Win 8 is, try it yourself for free! The Consumer preview is being released to the world at the end of the month, this is the "90% complete" version so what you see is what is gonna be crapped all over desktops and laptops this Oct...well until the OEMs have a screaming shitfit as their sales plummet and they demand downgrade rights to Win 7 like they did with Vista and XP.

To me though the sad part isn't win 8 being a giant failwhale because Win 7 is supported until 2020 and hopefully Ballmer will be shitcanned by then, no what is sad to me is first with Vista and now 100 times more powerful with the combo of Win 8, the death of XP, and everyone practically living on the net Linux has been given all these great gifts. its like the competition is giving them a 250 meter head start on the 300 meter dash and what does the devs do? Do they announce a distro with ten years of support and a rock solid foundation, built upon a "It works and will consistently continue to work" philosopy? Nope first they gut the entire soundsystem for an unstable mess and then if that didn't set them back far enough they trash the two biggest DEs for a buggy blingfest that set everything back a good 5+ years with regards to stability! Its like someone went back in time with the design of the iPad and tried to hand it to the Linux devs only to have them go " Naaaaah, we're betting it all on the Foleo baby!". So instead of just taking that huge lead and waltzing across the finish line so they can finally give us a true "third way" over apple and MSFT they promptly shoot themselves in the foot and then plop down in the middle of a field to write a script in long PHP codes that makes the CLI answer them with "You are so cool master"...sigh.

As much as I can't believe i'm agreeing with that linTroll Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols all these new UIs just suck, like REALLY hard. Its like all the devs of the world just lost their damned minds when iPhone came out and then lined up to horribly fuck up their offerings in the hopes they could somehow "capture the magic" of the iShiny. It reminds me of the old Python upper class twits bit, these devs probably couldn't even shoot themselves correctly.

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[Proudrooster]

That sir is one heck of a rant, best I've seen in awhile.

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[Proudrooster]

"I paid for the CPU, memory, motherboard, disk and video I wanted and it was still cheaper. No bloatware.. MACs don't let me select my hardware."

And that is why MACS actually work. No driver hell like in Windows land because you got to select your own hardware off of NewEgg. Note, I am not knocking you, I handcraft my PCs with NewEgg parts as well, but there is always a driver that doesn't work properly, usually the video driver.

Apple gives you a choice of high end, higher end, and the highest end they could squeeze into a tiny package. I have both OSX and Windows 7 on my desk. When I need stuff to work and work fast with nice tools, I go for the MAC. Microsoft needs to develop so apps that aren't crap and include them with the Windows. Yes, I am calling Microsoft Movie Maker crap.

It must be soul crushing to work at Microsoft and get stomped everyday by a company that was nearly dead just a few years ago.

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[Proudrooster]

I agree. Macs are a good value for what you get... Oh, and don't forget about being able to actually get support from an English speaking American or the availability of Apple Store geniuses. Microsoft support routes me to India and on my last call they tried to convince all my USB ports had failed and that is definitely was a hardware problem. Apple support rocks.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You spent the time looking that link up, when you could have spent that time googling up the current status of the product.

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[DarwinSurvivor]

Why not?

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[crutchy]

i said real nerds avoid microsoft and use linux

you appear to read it as anyone who uses linux avoids microsoft, which I do somewhat agree with, but I'll assume you meant that morons use windows (obviously).

I imagine your confusion is because you don't get out and mingle with real people much.

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[Ol Olsoc]

I agree. Macs are a good value for what you get... Oh, and don't forget about being able to actually get support

Which reminds me, my Wireless mouse went bad on me. I called Mac Support. I spent a few minutes convincing the Tech support that it was bad. Spoke to two humans who spoke excellent English. The next day, there was a new Wireless mouse, and a pulloff label to ship the old one back. They sent email for me to confirm I got the new mouse, and another email confirming that they got the old one and that it was indeed bad.

Which contrasts with say my dealings with Dell, in which I often got someone who I frankly couldn't understand. It may have gotten better since then, but I haven't bought a Dell in years.

And then there was "warranty" service on a Compaq Laptop bought from CIrcuit City. I brought the laptop in, it had a MoBo problem that was apparently typical. Dude at the Service counter gave me a photocopied piece of paper with an address on it. I asked "What is this?", he answered that's where you have to send it? That's all you do? "Yup!....Next?

God I was glad when the y went out of business.

I think a lot of PC users just can't comprehend that level of support.

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[kyrio]

No, you said "real" nerds avoid MS. The anon pointed out that you quoted real, leaving you with the opposite meaning. So what you really said was "fake nerds avoid [anything] Microsoft,", which is actually true, because only a fake nerd (aka "nerd") would avoid all Microsoft products for no reason other than to be a "nerd". A person with a brain would use the products that he deems necessary, by judging their worth through use and their application. This is, of course, ignoring that Microsoft brands other products, such as the XBOX and Zune, which completely nulls your entire flawed argument.

The anon also pointed out that only a moron, or someone with no reason other than fanboyism (your "nerd"), would use Linux as their only desktop OS. Using Linux to power a dedicated media player, for example, would not be Linux as a desktop OS. Using Linux because you write code would make it a development box. Using it to serve websites would make it a server. So, you see, the amount of people using Linux as their only desktop OS, for legitimate reasons, are extremely low.

You must be ESL because you a) have horrible grammar and b) you have no reading comprehension. If you aren't ESL, well, you're just an imbecile.

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[kyrio]

Wow, your post is full of so much shit that the letters in your post turned brown. Driver hell? What shit knockoff hardware are you buying? Your video card driver doesn't work? There are only two driver packages to choose from, unless you're getting more of those knockoff NVADIA video cards. Apple gives you high quality parts? Are you fucking kidding? They give you low quality parts for extremely high prices, and they put an entire tube of thermal grease on each heat sink so everything will overheat in order to get you to buy more. Go kill yourself, imbecile.

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[kyrio]

Not being able to understand why buying an OEM desktop, even with Linux on it, is something that people, or entities, other than "ignorant fools" would do, makes you the ignorant fool.

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[ajlisows]

I actually applaud them for trying to forge ahead a bit. They bought themselves time with Windows 7 being a really solid release. They release this repackaged version of Windows 7 with a wacky new interface and see what people think of it. Most of the slight below to average computer users I know will probably like this interface on a desktop. Heck, I can't really rule out the possibility of this being a successful UI model for some manager/sales types in the workplace. The idea isn't that terrible. It is kind of like having linear virtual desktops and virtual desktops are pretty damn cool. If it doesn't work at all for desktops? You have a pretty viable tablet platform (admit it, it does look slick for touchscreen) and four years to write a "Windows 9" as the successor to Windows 7 and the "Normal Windows" model. Not really that bad of a gamble.

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[rtb61]

It could be that M$ is looking to create financial growth whilst avoiding trust issues. Going for the logical separation M$ software and the MSN network.

They have to work hard to undo the damage they did the MSN weakening the brand by diffusing reach on single market brand focus, xbox, bing, live, rather than MSN gaming, MSN search, MSN social, MSN mobile et al.

They can pull out M$ software with it's many bad habits, lack of market appeal, monopolistic tactics and exploit it.

Leaving MSN to grow and spread into other markets. Seperating the company by simply issuing new MSN stock for each folder of M$ stock. Leave Uncle Fester to run M$ and find someone more creative for MSN (someone who wont idiotically 'choke the chicken').

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[Anonymous Coward]

And that is why MACS actually work. No driver hell like in Windows land because you got to select your own hardware off of

Driver hell? All of the shit I plug in just works. I get choices and you get to pick from a tiny menu. I win, you loose.

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[hairyfeet]

Actually it IS that bad a gamble because they were FINALLY getting businesses to start replacing XP boxes for Win 7, what do you think is gonna happen when they see that failwhale bling bling consumer oriented crap? they are gonna go "How many months does XP have left? Yeah lets wait because that sucks". That is the whole point behind having 10 years of support, they should have stuck with a 5 year release model as that gave businesses time to test and rollout. at 3 years that is simply too soon for some 10,000 seat corp to get all their apps tested and deployed.

As for consumers so far i have showed the dev preview to over 200 average folks, your Suzy the checkout girl and Brian the backhoe operator types and you know what i found? they HATE it, not just dislike but hate it with a passion! The closest i got to an "endorsement" was this exchange..."My, that's a pretty looking cell phone screen, is that Android? I heard that its nice...what do you mean Windows? Windows what? Well that's just stupid! Why would I want a cell phone on my computer?" and from Ms Pipkin comes wisdom. Everyone can see that's not built for desktops, its a cell phone! It looks like a cell phone, acts like a cell phone, hell even the product shill for yahoo whose answer to everything is "Buy it! Buy it now! you should really buy it!" said this of Windows 8 "Uhhh..you should wait until you get something with a touchscreen before switching" which for that shill might as well be "My eyes! The goggles they do nothing!".

Mark my words, Win 8 is gonna make Vista look like Win95, hell it may even put the WinME and MS Bob jokes to rest. the ONLY way I can see it not bombing is if they sell it to consumers at $50 a copy and OEMs for less than $25, and they give the OEMs and consumers a ballot screen that lets them choose UI on first run so the ones that don't have tablets (99.9998% of those that will be running this turkey) can pick the "Get the fuck out of here metro" button and just have Win 7 with a square start button. never underestimate the comfort zone of the consumer, you change too much too fast and you WILL get a backlash. But again don't take my word for it, you have a dual core or better, right? Consumer preview is free for all on Feb 29th, so fire up a VM and give it a run. I've tried the first one and frankly the level of fail is beyond scary and into 'WTF are they thinking?" territory.

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[Daengbo]

And it's finished, folks. The FOSS blog of CmdrTaco has now devolved into Mac vs. Windows arguments. Where are the other options in that equation?

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[Anonymous Coward]

get some medication

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

If you buy a computer through the MS Store it comes without any shitware. If your theory were correct it would be more expensive than the same unit sold with shitware. It isn't.

Actually, it is more expensive. Pretty much on par with Macs.

Re:Great

[InsGadget]

MS may use other countries for support, but the quality is really not any less, at least in my experience.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Just try to do serious gaming on a PC and after you have found the video driver that works with the directx version that shipped with the game you will understand. That is why consoles like ps3 and Xbox continue to be popular, because rolling your own isn't an option. And learn how to spell NVIDIA,oh and don't forget to download the beta driver of the week.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

Obvious LinTroll much?

You pay for a Windows license, not for the crapware that ships. Anybody with a Win7 disc can do a clean install using their OEM key. Might have to make a call to the automated license line if you've used the OEM key more than a couple times.

Macs are expensive because they're "shiny and made by Apple", "easy and user friendly", and a bunch of other marketing mumbo-jumbo. They're not priced all that differently from high end PCs; which is basically what they are. You pay a premium for the brand. Fail to see how that's related.

That said, you can buy Windows computers without any OEM garbage through Microsoft. It's called the Signature program: http://signature.microsoft.com/

The only way I can imagine your "version of windows making your computer as cost as much as a mac" is if you're building yourself and installing your own license of Server 2008R2.

You really should at least do a basic fact-check before your spread FUD.
But that tends to be all *NIX and Mac nuts do, when faced with Windows.

Yes, the Start Screen is weird. It can also be disabled in favor of a Win7-style start menu.
I'll at least be waiting for the final product before I start whining about how expensive it is to switch to Macs. ffs

Re:Great

[kyrio]

Oh, look, another comment posted on Slashdot by someone with no reading comprehension. Your entire post is full of bullshit and retardation. Considering your inability to write a coherent sentence, or to use correct grammar, I'd say the PEBKAC, in your case.

Re:Great

[dave87656]

you should not be using Linux as your desktop OS

Damn and I've been using Linux for my desktop OS for the last 10 years. If only I'd known.

Re:Great

[crutchy]

i quoted real for emphasis, not for sarcasm, but i can see how confusion is possible, particularly for those poor retards with no sense of humor.

A person with a brain would use the products that he deems necessary, by judging their worth through use and their application

I do, and microsoft isn't necessary. most people are trapped into thinking they need microsoft products, and there's nothing nerdy about that. real nerds explore other possibilities and use tools that they need that are the most cost effective (only those that don't know any better pay for something they don't have to).

Microsoft brands other products, such as the XBOX and Zune, which completely nulls your entire flawed argument

my argument isn't flawed, and microsoft branding other products has nothing to do with my argument, so your argument is flawed

the amount of people using Linux as their only desktop OS, for legitimate reasons, are extremely low

the number of people using Windows for anything other than to play freecell, browse porn and edit their resume in Word is extremely low, because windows is pretty useless for anything else. you exclude development and web hosting as legitimate uses of a desktop operating system, but neglect to mention what you consider to be a legitmate use. linux can be used for any number of applications, including (but not limited to) anything that windows can be used for. the fact that windows is limited to use as a desktop OS is just that; a limitation.

You must be ESL because you a) have horrible grammar and b) you have no reading comprehension. If you aren't ESL, well, you're just an imbecile.

my grammar isn't horrible (you can read it just fine), you're just grasping at straws by judging me on the quotation of a single word, which is pretty desperate, but go figure (you're a microsoft shill). I'm not ESL, and I can't be ESL, assuming ESL in this case means English as a Second Language; now who's the grammar retard? english is my first language, and i can speak and type it quite fine. if you have a problem with my english, go fuck youself. i'm also not an imbecile. you are an imbecile. you will disagree, but i don't get too concerned about the opinions of lower lifeforms.

bye fucker.

Re:Great

[afidel]

Business's will simply skip Win8 on the desktop. We'll continue to have access to Win7 through our Select or Enterprise agreements and if you're too small to have either you're probably too small for the differences to matter. The more interesting question is if they will come out with a version of IE that supports Metro apps on Win7, if not then don't expect to see any significant business buyin for Metro.

Re:Great

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you are just a moron.

Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

I miss the minimalistic approach of Windows 7 where it came with barely anything, Windows 8 is starting to turn back into Vista but with a horrible UI.

Re:Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

I miss ur moms minimalist approach to mah dihk

Re:Back to the classics

[denis-The-menace]

One of my friend was Gung-ho bullish on MS last year. I could get him to see past the BS.

Then info on Win 8 started to come out.

His sold his MS stock late last year.

Now he see MS the way I do.

In 5 years I think Windows is about to go the way of OS/2:
Stable but who the fuck cares, it sucks.

Re:Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering MSFT's stock being up 20% this year - a lot of people think you are wrong.

Re:Back to the classics

[ackthpt]

Considering MSFT's stock being up 20% this year - a lot of people think you are wrong.

BEEEP Lack of context penalty!

Why is MSFT stock up 20%? Is it irrational exuberance? Did they shave unproductive brands/divisions? Cut workforce? Move more workforce to countries where workers are paid a fraction of high western wages? Give some background to defend your assertion.

Re:Back to the classics

[sed quid in infernos]

What's to defend? The price has gone up. MS stock is traded in relatively high volume. Therefore, a significant portion of the market (read, "a lot of people") think that denis-The-menace's assessment about the future of Microsoft is wrong. The reason why lots of people think MS's stock is worth 20% more now isn't relevant to the question of whether lots of people do, in fact, think that way.

Re:Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is it a simple pump-and-dump scheme at the beginning?

Re:Back to the classics

[Barbara, not Barbie]

Cut workforce, moved a lot of stuff to other countries, and most important - it's because they're hugely profitable and pay a regular dividend.

Investors like profits, but they LOVE dividends, especially in this economy.

So when it comes to OS vendors, we have Apple being the most profitable, Microsoft at #2, Google at #3, and RedHat at #4.

Any distro except RedHat running at a profit? Canonical? Nope, never did, never will. Mandriva? Struggling to stay out of bankruptcy court. Suse? Dependent on another $100 million of "license purchases" over the next 4 years since it was purchased by Microsoft's new BFF Attachmate. Fedora? Supported by RedHat. Debian? Survives on donations, not really enough to pay for staff. Mint? Thanks to Canonical dropping the ball, Mint actually now has two paid full-time staff!!!.

None of the distros, with the exception of RedHat, is something that an investor should put serious money into. And that's unfortunate, but it should tell you that fragmentation is a disease, and maybe Canonical closing up shop sometime in the next couple of years will wake people up.

Re:Back to the classics

[demachina]

All stocks are up this year, Microsoft's it just up a little more than the average. Stocks and commodities are going up because central banks the world over are printing staggering quantities of money. Central bank balance sheets are where money is created out of thin air and turned over to banks who then leverage it anywhere from 11X to 50X creating a tidal wave of inceasingly worthless dollars, euros, yuan, and pounds.

Stocks and commodities are going up to counteract the decline of the paper currencies they are denominated in. The actual valuation of the companies hasn't changed that much but their value in dollars and euros soars as the real value of these fiat currencies plunge as more and more are printed (they are not actually printed they are electronically conjured from thin air with a stroke of a key on a computer).

The DOW rally from 6,660 to 12,000 was driven almost entirely by the Federal Reserve flooding the worlds banks with dollars which they mostly plowed back in to stocks and commodities.

The huge rally in the stock market so far this year started on the day the ECB gifted European banks with 500 billion in newly created Euros in exchange for their increasingly worthless PIIGS bonds, in a program called LTRO. The ECB is scheduled to do another round of this at the end of this month that could equal that or go as high as 1 Trillion Euros. The ECB had a German President opposed to printing money in 2011, but he was replaced with an Italian who immediately opened the spigots to save Italy's bonds from collapse. It did miracles for Italy's bonds and stock markets the world over. Its also fueling a new round of inflation in oil and assorted other commodities.

Re:Back to the classics

[camperslo]

Considering MSFT's stock being up 20% this year - a lot of people think you are wrong.

Looks like MS is up to where it was two years ago, wow! And Apple.... Well at least MS is no longer lower than two years ago. Markets reflect moods. One cannot fairly judge a companies planned changes based on stock history. Some have felt Microsoft needs to ditch the old or make some radical changes. It looks like they're trying. The risk with a big change is higher than doing little, but it offers chances for new life instead of giving in and watching slow decay (well maybe not as slow as it seemed a few years ago). Time will tell whether what is in the works now is good for them and their customers.

Following big changes, it seems like they often need a second release to make a bunch of things right. Obviously they'll be trying hard not to have another ME or Vista with the growing risk of losing the installed base. If they get something that works well and is pretty secure, maybe they can start doing more frequent releases of things people value (instead of blunder packs and security patches). The more frequent release model seems to work well for others.

Re:Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

> The ECB had a German President...

Jean Claude Trichet? He's French.

Re:Back to the classics

[Anonymous Coward]

haha your dick needs a minimalist approach.

I guess this means

[Anonymous Coward]

we shouldn't expect mobile products from MS with names like "Zune Messiah" or "Children of Zune" either.

Re:I guess this means

[dkleinsc]

There was a Zune mess alright, but no Zune Messiah.

Re:I guess this means

[ackthpt]

we shouldn't expect mobile products from MS with names like "Zune Messiah" or "Children of Zune" either.

In Soviet Russia Zune cancels YOU!

Re:I guess this means

[Chemisor]

No, but I hear they're working on a new eReader, codenamed "Chapterhouse Zune"

Re:I guess this means

[sehlat]

It also means that "Zune Buggy" will no longer be an oxymoron.

Re:I guess this means

[Sponge Bath]

Microsoft's new mobile player has a portal to an alternate plane of existence and is called Zuul. Mind the ectoplasm.

Re:I guess this means

[Archangel Michael]

Which is kind of funny, since "Messiah" is Hebrew (transliteration) and Zune in Hebrew sounds a lot like "FUCK" (crude term meaning fornicate)

Re:I guess this means

[Kenshin]

Wonderful. Now you've given me a horrible mental image of Steve Ballmer as the Baron Harkonnen.

Re:I guess this means

[gl4ss]

zune as a shipping sw brand is well alive as is large parts of the design and code.

if you get your hands on a windows phone(7) and want to load some apps or music you'll notice it very fast, at the point when you'll be downloading zune sw just to get some photos off the damn thing.

it's funny because ms makes pr effort of when they were designing windows mobile 7 they decided to start from scratch(they didn't! they just took the zune and ran with it, that pretty much explains why wp7 feels like a rather simple media player and not a proper phone os).

in that light it's not that big of a wonder they'll do a mass renaming on the sw(that's something they probably picked up from nokia, uh, and if they picked something else from there they'll also drop half the useful features while doing the mass rename on the source..). because they'd really, really like you'd to forget that it has zune roots, for some weird history rewrite reason.

Re:I guess this means

[Anonymous Coward]

...Galactic Ruler Zune will not appreciate this. Prepare the volcanoes and the DC-8 spaceplanes...

Re:I guess this means

[Anonymous Coward]

I was waiting for "Bill, Emperor of Zune"

Re:I guess this means

[Anonymous Coward]

"FUCK" (crude term meaning fornicate)

That's what that means??? My god, a LOT of what I've been saying for the past couple years, now that I think about it, might have been kinda rude.

Re:I guess this means

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider it an improvement.

How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can anyone invest themselves in any Microsoft product when they change branding/strategy/support so much? Even if a product manages to stay around over 3-5 years, they give it an overhaul and change the way it works so people have to get used to it all over again. .Net, Live!, PlaysForSure, Zune, Silverlight, among many others, and they also drop support for older file formats and push half-assed standards over established certified ones.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

What are your options here?

Apple, does the same thing.
Google, does the same thing (beta...).
Oracle? You better have a *LONG* service contract and it will cost....
IBM? You better have a *LONG* service contract and it will cost....
Linux sometimes your lucky if the GUI stays the same for 6 months with some distros... You can use a LTS version but those are usually 3-4 years themselves...

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never come across an old Microsoft file format that doesn't open in a newer version of it's program. I agree with you on the changing branding/strategy and half-assed standards, though. Microsoft seriously needs to hire the companies that market/advertise for companies like Geico, Apple, etc. and just let them do their thing. Microsoft's ad campaigns are always very...awkward to put it nicely. I guess it just reflects the company's culture.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Awkward is to put it lightly. I still cannot stop laughing at the fact they ran an advertising campaign in Poland based on 'yo momma' jokes. I mean, there was a competition even!

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[swb]

I use and support MS server products as a consultant, and I actually make this point a lot to colleagues that want to use what I'll call "fringe" features of their products.

While they may seem like a magic bullet for some problems, I always worry because many of these features are poorly documented, leading to confusion about how they work or whatever resource limits or capabilities they really have, and more importantly, what happens when the feature goes away and you need to migrate to some newer release of the software?

Not only are you stuck with a potentially manual process for migrating data to some more mainstream but potentially less "slick" feature, it may require the organization to change some business process to accommodate the now-missing feature they have used previously.

The last part is the worst, as I work with customers who cling to software & software features that have been discontinued because "it's too expensive" to switch to something else, "this is how we work" or some other reason. Seldom if ever do they acknowledge that should this system die, they won't work at all. One client has a software package that has been abandoned totally (source vendor has been out of business for 4+ years) and if the Windows XP system its on crashes hard, they lose the ability to manage 35% of their assets (app is on floppies, and somehow the app won't install except with a physical floppy drive....if the floppies are even readable.).

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Grishnakh]

Yep, the GUI thing is a big problem with Linux these days. Your best bet is to pick a good KDE distro, such as Linux Mint KDE, Mageia, OpenSUSE, Chakra, etc. KDE's finally worked out most of their performance and stability problems, and the GUI is traditional and easy to learn for anyone coming from Windows, unlike those other new abominations. Unfortunately, it's the crappy GUIs that get most of the press in Linux-land and also the two most-popular distros push them, though one of them seems to have lost a lot of users to Mint because of this lately.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Grishnakh]

I think it reflects on Ballmer himself. He probably personally approves all their ad campaigns, and rejects any that are actually decent, which is why we don't see them.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[gstrickler]

Try opening an old MS Works file in anything other than MS Works.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell uses MS Works?

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[JBMcB]

Seriously? I *Hate* the new KDE4 UI. And I was a huge fan of KDE3. What's with the scrolling "start" menu? I just want a list of apps to run. Then there's all the clutter in dolphin. The newer builds of 4 are faster and less crash-y, but the UI is bloating up pretty badly.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[JBMcB]

It came bundled for "free" on tons of low end machines in the late 90's. I'd say half of the college students I helped at the university help desk used it for writing papers. I'd imagine there are still a lot of Works files floating around.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Ceriel Nosforit]

Windows+ R Delta Echo Victor Mike Golf Mike Tango dot Mike Sierra Charlie has worked for as long as I can remember while Ctrl+Alt+F2 no longer brings me a TTY in Ubuntu. KDE could not die quicker.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Grishnakh]

KDE4 can be set up almost exactly like KDE3.

You don't like the scrolling start menu? You like the old classic KDE3 menu? Simple: right-click on the K menu icon, select option #2: "Switch to Classic Style Menu". Presto! You now have a KDE3 menu.

You don't like Dolphin? You prefer the old Konqueror for file browsing? Simple: run Konqueror. It's still there; no one's forcing you to use Dolphin. You can even set it to be the default file manager (I'm not exactly sure how offhand).

KDE is the same as it's always been: loaded to the gills with configuration options. If you don't like the defaults, you're free to change them. Spend a half-hour going through all the menu options in System Settings when you first install it, and leave it like that for years.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[robinsonne]

Nobody knows how to clone the machine for this totally abandoned software that is moments away from dooming them entirely? Hmmm....

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

I know you were trying to make a point, but you failed.

What consumer has to learn how to use .Net, Silverlight? These are development platforms used to create apps, no consumer needed to know anything about these technologies other then installing or updating them (running Windows update). And if you were a developer you realize these platforms have evolved over the last 5 years building off the previous generation. Even WinRT which "replaces" .Net is mostly indistinguishable from .Net code that its an effortless switch for most .Net developers and consumer will be oblivious to the change.

What did you have to learn about Zune? How to press play, pause, find a song?

Live is being re-branded as Lync but largely the changes are insignificant, having to figure out how to IM or call someone in the post-Live universe will not break anyone's brain.

Also I prefer an app to open up every file type that existed rather then one that say's "Sorry, your old file type is not supported".

Also certified "standards" are almost never 100% adopted by anybody. The WC3 has spent years trying to "standardize" the web, but even champions like Google and Mozilla have not been able to achieve 100% standardization.

The Internet pretty much debunked your comment entirely. There used to be a time when people valued every application working the same way with the same UI cues. But then this Interweb thingy came into existence and people pretty much figured out how to navigate it in spite of every web page being authored differently. Sure, there are "standards" adopted that bring some consistency to UI, but people figured out how to use Facebook which looks different then Twitter, which looks different then Google+ and there are a slew of different online e-Commerce stores that all present their interfaces wildly different then the next.

Not to mention the fact that people in general moved effortlessly from desktop OS'es to mobile OS'es which did not share any common UI cues.

It's a myth that an OS or application UI has to remain consistent and unchanging for 5+ years. If you find it hard to adapt to each new OS version or a MS rebranding, well then, you might be an idiot.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's your job to convince them to put that on new hardware or in a VM.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[nightfell]

What are your options here?

You listed them. They may "do the same thing" if you completely ignore rate and magnitude. By your logic, getting hit by a spray bullets and hit by a nerf dart are the same, since they all do the same thing (hit you with force).

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[armanox]

But who uses Ubuntu anyway? Everyone I know that still uses Linux uses Fedora or RH (and it works just fine in there).

Also, Win+R didn't work before XP.

Re:How can anyone invest themselves in MS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the hell paid for Office to write 5-paragraph college essays when Works came free?

Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[WarlockD]

Kind of saw it coming though. Windows 8 is kind of make or break for Microsoft right now in the phone/tablet market right now. No reason to have any other products to distract consumers with. I wonder if Windows 8 will have an emulation layer for x86 on the ARM.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[DeathFromSomewhere]

I wonder if Windows 8 will have an emulation layer for x86 on the ARM.

Nope.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[masternerdguy]

As a mobile platform win 8 isn't bad.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[GeckoAddict]

I agree. Microsoft has been very divided in it's products for a very long time (to the point where you even wonder if products were made by the same company), and it looks like Win8 is where they're looking to consolidate into a single, cohesive brand. The problem with that strategy is if it doesn't work, you've got nothing to fall back on.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[spire3661]

Windows ARM is their strategy to mimic Apple and their level of unapologetic control. Win 8 ARM is where their DRM dreams for general computing will be fleshed out and brought to life. I imagine at some point before Win 8 or very soon after, Apple will introduce an OSX/iOS merged product, and the wheel will turn again.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[Grishnakh]

to the point where you even wonder if products were made by the same company

They weren't. For one thing, many or most of their products are actually acquisitions from other companies: Powerpoint, Excel, etc. were all from acquisitions. Secondly, internally, MS operates as a bunch of smaller competing companies, with various department heads constantly backstabbing each other rather than working together. It's amazing they get anything done in that environment.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[gstoddart]

Secondly, internally, MS operates as a bunch of smaller competing companies, with various department heads constantly backstabbing each other rather than working together. It's amazing they get anything done in that environment.

I've worked for companies far smaller than Microsoft that have the exact same corporate culture.

Many years ago, one of the companies I worked for had grown through acquisitions. With each new one, the VP of R&D for the newest became VP of R&D for the entire company ... and then proceeded to axe products and technologies that weren't from his company. It made for a whole lot of people trying to undo several years of development work that had already been sold to clients and had installed user bases. But, since their company made hammers, they couldn't see why anybody would be making wrenches. Even if a hammer was completely unsuited for huge sections of our business.

From our perspective, it made for some very Dilbert-esque moments as you had to explain to someone that we actually do need to keep these products unless we planned on getting sued.

I suspect that level of inter-departmental dysfunction isn't uncommon. Especially in tech or any company that grew through acquisition.

Corporations can be very stupid that way.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[Grishnakh]

Wow, that's weird and rather hard to comprehend honestly. I've worked at two large tech companies, Intel and Freescale, and neither of them operated like this at all.

Intel had its problems (I was there during the whole P4/RAMBUS debacle, when AMD was beating us in performance and cost, and don't forget the whole Itanic thing), but I don't remember any kind of outright in-fighting like that. The decisions about what strategy would be pursued, which products would be developed and which would be shelved, all came from the very top. Not all these decisions were great, mind you (P4/Netburst, RAMBUS, Itanic, crappy keyboards/mice/cameras), but the company even at 100k employees at the time did more or less operate as a single unit. Once they got rid of Craig and replaced him with Otellini, ditched Netburst and some of the other extraneous stuff they had been trying unsuccessfully to expand into, they did fine.

Freescale was very poorly managed when I was there, but again, I didn't see any infighting, just decisions being handed down from the very top, including very bad decisions to axe development teams to save money right after products were brought out and customers all signed on, only to find the products were loaded with bugs and there was no one to fix them because the development team had been axed.

In both cases, the success or failure of the company was due to the people at the very top, not due to any kind of infighting that I could see. Of course, with any organization with one person (and a few helpers) at the top making all the big decisions, things aren't going to work very well if that guy is a moron, but giving more authority to lower-level people and letting them fight amongst themselves isn't a solution for that, it's even worse.

Personally, if I were in a situation like you describe above where you need to explain to some clueless VP that you have to keep a product or else be sued, I wouldn't bother to tell him that, I'd just go right along with his dumb plans. Then I'd immediately start looking for a new job and watch the fireworks and laugh. A company that dumb deserves to be sued into the ground.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple Already has Lion is a meger between iOS and OSX...

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[gstoddart]

Wow, that's weird and rather hard to comprehend honestly. I've worked at two large tech companies

In my experience, software companies especially suffer from this problem. They all grow by buying smaller companies with niche products, and then try to add the features from one into another. However, since the purchase is done at a management level, they often don't understand the technology barriers (product A is UNIX, product B is Windows -- you can't just smush them together in a week and get "New and Improved Product B").

Sometimes, the people who run the company are just incapable of seeing how bad of a job they're doing with this. Probably because the people in the middle are too unwilling/incapable of telling truth to power.

For instance, I have seen marketing glossies that basically boil down to the union of two sets of buzzwords from two totally different products. But, since the company made and sold both, they could claim to have a "solution" which did all of what both did. Trying to deploy two disparate technologies to actually do what the management and marketing people promoted, however, made for a lot of cynicism in the office. And, more than a few customers.

In general, I've found being in consulting means I'm not the one who has to lie about what the product can do, unlike when you actually work for the vendor.

You sound surprised, but I can guarantee my experiences are nowhere unique in that regard. I suspect the further you get from the CEO, the less cohesive a company actually is. Growth by acquisition leads to a bunch of silos and fiefdoms, and very few companies do a good job at managing that.

Re:Ding Ding the witch is dead!

[Anonymous Coward]

And the lower one is in the company, the more the decisions seem to come "from the top" even if they're a result of infighting - the infighting is trying to effect the decisions happening at the top, which makes it even more nasty.

at least

[aahpandasrun]

At least Microsoft Account is a better name than Windows Live ID. Windows Live was just a poor attempt at cashing in on the popularity of the Xbox Live name. Sony, on the other hand, loves to add more words to obfuscate their product names (Sony Entertainment Network Account)

Killed?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a difference between killing and rebranding. Aside from the Zune hardware I don't see a single thing I would consider "killed" by Microsoft. And I'd even accept that idea that the Zune isn't being killed but instead reintroduced in a slightly more integrated format.

Re:Killed?

[Anonymous Coward]

" I don't see a single thing I would consider "killed" by Microsoft."

Vista killed my computer :(

R.I.P my P4

Re:Killed?

[DragonWriter]

There's a difference between killing and rebranding.

When you are talking about a brand, rather than a product, there isn't: rebranding the product is killing the brand.

Re:Killed?

[nightfell]

There's a difference between killing and rebranding. Aside from the Zune hardware I don't see a single thing I would consider "killed" by Microsoft. And I'd even accept that idea that the Zune isn't being killed but instead reintroduced in a slightly more integrated format.

And that's exactly what the headline said, they are killing the brands.

Re:Killed?

[Anonymous Coward]

They killed Microsoft Money, Clippy, Bob, Encarta and my favorite, the "Musical Instruments" educational CD.

Re:Killed?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"I don't see a single thing I would consider "killed" by Microsoft."

I think you are forgetting Windows ;-)

... or Microsoft Bob. There are many, many, many more.

What about Games for Windows Live?

[VGPowerlord]

So, is Games for Windows Live being renamed as well?

What is it now? Games for Windows? Games for Xbox Live? Hell, they already call their phone app My Xbox Live...

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

For the good of all mankind, they should really just replace 'Games for Windows Live' with a link to Steam...

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Anonymous Coward]

And Hotmail with a link to Gmail.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Zinho]

Amen, brother!

When I found out I'd have to log into both Steam and GFWL in order to play DiRT3 it made me glad I hadn't paid money for it; I'd have been demanding a refund otherwise. If Steam were to buy GFWL and get rid of that stupidity I'd be in heaven.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very much so. GFWL is annoying as all hell. I wish it would die a slow and painful death.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[spire3661]

You dont have to log into GFWL online. It works just fine with a local account. Not defending it, it still sucks ass, but at the local level its just a glorified user account manager for savegames.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Noughmad]

And Windows with a link to Ubuntu.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Zinho]

Thanks, I'll look into that. Honestly it annoyed me enough that I didn't bother trying to figure out the nuances.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[gl4ss]

I bought skyrim "Platform: Games for Windows®".

you know what the installer did first? install steam...

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I wonder, actually... Google offers hosted email packages that use your domain, branding, and whatnot, for business and EDU users. I wonder what they would charge to do a migration of Hotmail users to their backend... Not exactly a call microsoft would make; but it'd be interesting to hear the response from the Google sales rep, once they'd had a chance to pick their jaw up from the floor...

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[shutdown -p now]

That would defeat the purpose of that link to Steam introduced on step #1.

Or are you suggesting that be replaced with a script that installs TuxRacer? ~

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Daengbo]

It's penguins all the way down.

Re:What about Games for Windows Live?

[Daengbo]

Google offloads this kind of thing onto their partner ecosystem. Here's an example: Office 365/BPOS to Google Apps Migration.

Zoon?

[Quiet_Desperation]

Microsoft Killing Off Zune

The what?

Re:Zoon?

[JBMcB]

The cheap brown iPod touch with no apps.

Re:Zoon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is so incredibly pathetic.

Offer an MP3 player in multiple colors?

"omg one of the colors is brown! LOLOLOL ZUNE = BROWN = POOP! MICROSOFT = POOPY LOLOLOL"

Meanwhile my 8GB Zune is STILL superior to the equivalent iPod Nano.

Re:Zoon?

[tapspace]

I bought the brown zune for $100 like what 5 years ago (maybe less) and it remains one of the top 5 electronics devices I have ever owned (in a list including my first, completely indestructable walkman and a used T23). Hail the venerable brownzune with the squirt technology!

Let us take a moment of silence...

[Kenja]

and think of how boned the Zune lifetime pass owners are.

Re:Let us take a moment of silence...

[Daerath]

Except they aren't. "although Zune Pass functionality remains"

Re:Let us take a moment of silence...

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Insightful

Re:Let us take a moment of silence...

[ZJ AJ]

and think of how boned the Zune lifetime pass owners are.

Which would be funny if there was such a thing. Which there is not.

Re:Let us take a moment of silence...

[Daengbo]

Given the history of such purchases over the last ten years, I'd say anyone who buys "lifetime" or "unlimited" anything is just wasting money.

Finally!

[s.petry]

I have no idea why they ever released Zune let alone spent millions trying to convince people it was a product they should own. Actually I do. They hoped that they could force iTunes out of business by dumping Zune on people for "Free" and get another monopoly like Desktop PCs.

Doing this in light of the fact that iTunes was already free, used by millions, and was more mature and "better" than Zune is rather psychopathic. But it is Microsoft, and I expect nothing less than Evil from them.

Re:Finally!

[medv4380]

I'm shocked myself. I had assumed that it was already dead, and thus MS didn't need to kill anything.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Doing this in light of the fact that iTunes was already free, used by millions, and was more mature and "better" than Zune is rather psychopathic. But it is Microsoft, and I expect nothing less than Evil from them.

I find iTunes UX to be quite annoying whereas I enjoy using the Zune interface. I'm not a Microsoft fan-boy, I just like having a Music UX that doesn't make me want to pull my hair out.

Re:Finally!

[SethJohnson]

Here's some food for thought regarding your interest in understanding why companies develop products that are destined to fail.

When these CEOs have to meet with shareholders and the board of directors, they have to face questions about what the company is doing in response to the success other companies are having with a certain product. There is intense pressure on them to have an answer.

This is why Microsoft has things like their storefronts. So Ballmer can tell the shareholders they're doing a 'me-too' in response to the Apple store success. It's also why HP bought Palm and released the TouchPad. It's why motorola released the Xoom. It's why RIM released the PlayBook.

Seth

Re:Finally!

[jovius]

Better safe than sorry! If only consumers could be bred...

Re:Finally!

[s.petry]

To me what's the difference between any of them? How the play lists are stored and how easy they are to port? I don't use the dancing disco balls or what ever graphics people get in to. I click on a song title or album name and press a button that pretty much always say's "Play" or has a triangle facing to the right.

My Linux Amarok is just as good as iTunes and looks similar enough that it's easy to navigate and function, at least for playing music. The "Store" portion of iTunes is different. Well shit, I guess I figure out how to shop there when I want to buy something.

Re:Finally!

[gl4ss]

it is dead as a physical product pretty much.

however the software lives in windows phone 7 and pc sw as the management sw for wp7 phones.

Re:Finally!

[grouchomarxist]

That is probably true, but it should be a lesson for CEOs. Don't just develop something because of board/shareholder pressure. Develop something because you have a plan for making it successful.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

Only MS fanboys use crap like this. Everyone else has long sense moved on.

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

A wiser CEO would say "That is not our core compentancy and we should not waste or chase after dollars that we are not going to get."

Sure the board might vote him out, but that's what a really good one would do.

Re:Finally!

[Zero__Kelvin]

I think I missed class that day. Is that the lesson right before the one titled: Holy Shit! The Board just threw me out on my ass! ???

Re:Finally!

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Companies don't do things because it tells a good story. They do things in order to make money. That's it.

Company A makes widgets. Company A sells a bunch of widgets. Company A makes a lot of money from selling its widgets. Company B decides to make widgets so that it too can make a lot of money.

I can also draw this for you in graphical form, as well as in stick figures.

An Ode to Zune

[Golgafrinchan]

It makes me sad every time Microsoft does something to distance itself from the Zune brand.

I own 2 Zunes. I've been using them to listen to music at work nearly every day for the past 3 years. I've found them to be very high-quality pieces of hardware. I'm not a huge fan of the Zune software, but I don't think it's any worse than iTunes. Yet most of the time when I tell co-workers that I listen to music on a Zune, I have to endure ridicule for not using an Apple product. I have even heard from ex-MS colleagues that by-and-large, MS employees don't think very highly of the Zune.

What gives? Did I totally miss the boat on this and the Zune actually sucks? Am I just destined to be forever uncool by being associated with a failed MS product? I just never understood the hate, and somehow it seems to be worse now than ever. And now MS is apparently trying to distance itself from Zune as much as possible.

Keep your chin up, Zune. You still have a few fans out there.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

News at 11, losers wonder why people call them losers.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[alienzed]

Wasn't the Zune brown?! What can brown do for anybody? It's the color of... mud.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[chispito]

The brown Zune 30 was a really good looking in person. People snickered and sneered, but when you actually saw it, it was pretty nice looking.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Babbster]

You're not the only one. I like my Zune and use the Zune Pass. I like the Zune's interface a lot better than that of the iPod Touch and wish they would have tried harder to compete instead of abandoning it. Maybe Microsoft will make me happy and release a phone-free Windows Phone.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Adrian Lopez]

A name like Zune would kill any product.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I think the same way of Windows Me. I personally never had an issue. It installed and ran perfectly for me. To be honest, in many ways it was one of the best OSes I've ever used.

Like you, if I dare mention it, I get ridiculed to no end. I've even heard the same "Even MS employees hated Me". I don't get it. To each their own.

Let the flaming begin!

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Almandine]

My Zune is black, althought I was tempted by the silver version. Brown can do alot, I prefer it over FedEx.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like "Wii" and "Kinect", right? Oh wait...

Re:An Ode to Zune

[PatPending]

What can brown do for anybody?

Plenty; for one thing it can get you into the Advertising Walk of Fame:

United Parcel Service Inc.'s slogan "What Can Brown Do For You" has delivered a major award.

Source

Re:An Ode to Zune

[viking099]

I have a regular Zune 30gb brick that suffered from a headphone problem. It's been sitting in a dock, playing music for around 3 years.

I've had a Zune HD for a couple of years, and for music I like it much more than the iPod. It's main problem is that it's just an excellent MP3 player, with some other stuff added on.
The iPod is a good MP3 player, but there's so much more to it, that the Zune really couldn't compete.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think many people referred to Zune brown as the color of mud... more like it looked like a shiny turd.

RIP Zune, great concept, had the technical bits to be competitive with Apple, but didn't have the marketing, nor the correct color choice... poo brown, really?

Re:An Ode to Zune

[spire3661]

oooooo my BROWN-eyed girl. Do you remember when we used to sing, sha-nan-nan-nan-la de da. ooo la de da.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[spire3661]

Do you think the world stops at the edge of your vision? Its great that it worked for you, wonderful even. For the vast majority of us, it was a personal, professional, and social nightmare. I would never mock you for enjoying something that jsut worked for you. We, the geeks, are happy for you, but you are not one of us.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[gstoddart]

What gives? Did I totally miss the boat on this and the Zune actually sucks? Am I just destined to be forever uncool by being associated with a failed MS product?

Only if you were stupid enough to get it tattoed on your arm. ;-)

Other than that, you should be able to buy the music player of your choice and pretend it never happened. Nobody need ever know.

FWIW, I'm not sure I ever remember anybody saying good things about Zune ... except, of course, for the guy with the tattoo before he decided the product wasn't that good. It always struck me as Microsoft trying to get into yet another market when nobody really wanted their offering.

Though, except for the presence of the "Zune Marketplace" on my XBox (which I've never cared about), I have no experience with it. For all I know, it really is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[chispito]

You never actually saw one in person, did you? Not all electronics products need to look like they were made by Sony or Apple.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

The Zune music store was "meh" at best. Especially comparing it to what was killed to make room for it.

It is ironic that the best music store I've seen was Microsoft's URGE. Horrid name, but because it was a MS/MTV venture, it had pretty decent commentary, not just on what the most popular stuff is, but reviews on a lot less known bands as well. The new release category actually had releases of bands that were unsigned, not just another re-re-re-release of an Ozzy song. With the monthly subscription, being able to have a decent library of really new and interesting bands was good. At the time too, (this was pre-iPhone), the encrypted WMA files were annoying, but played on most generic MP3 players without issue.

Next to the old mp3.com, it was one of the best services out there for discovering new stuff.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Phat_Tony]

That makes 3 of you.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[LordThyGod]

*snicker* .... wishing me had mod points.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[nightfell]

Am I just destined to be forever uncool by being associated with a failed MS product?

Well, somebody has to take on that role. I thought it was going to be the Zune tattoo guy, but maybe you can be his stand-in.

Unless you are the Zune tattoo guy, in which case, keep up the good work!

Re:An Ode to Zune

[fahlesr1]

I had a Zune HD for a while and really liked it. When I got a smartphone it became redundant and I sold it, but it was the nicest mp3 player I ever owned. I still use the Zune software today, I think its better than WMP or iTunes by far!

I, too, am sad Microsoft is abandoning the Zune platform, it was a great product.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Threni]

>What gives? Did I totally miss the boat on this and the Zune actually sucks?

Did they sell well, outside the US? What, they weren't even released outside the US? Why? The iPod was; so was every single other MP3 player. Why not? No faith in it? Why release it then?

I think the same's going to happen to MS's mobile phones. Nobody wants a MS phone. There's just no point - too many better and/or cheaper phones out there. MS need to stick with what they're strong at and stop wasting money and embarrassing themselves with this low quality `me too` crap. MP3 players are all about marketing - there's no tech there - just a chip to decode MP3s, a 40 cent amplifier and some UI or other. I doubt there's even much money in it, other than the retailers, and no-one gives a shit about them any more.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[gstrickler]

Yes, I did. Repeatedly. And it wasn't as ugly in person as in ads, but it was still an ugly device. You're welcome to your opinion about it, but I definitely don't share that opinion.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[rastoboy29]

I think it comes down to contempt towards MS because they had the temerity to actually think they could compete with Apple on this turf.  I mean, seriously--if you know MS at all you knew they had zero chance of competing, because they just don't understand users.  I mean, they hate their users.

Apple is also a piece of shit company, but they do (or did) understand users.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[subreality]

The Zune itself is probably fine, but look at it in social terms: Apple is the cool kid while MicroSoft is the wannabe making pathetic attempts to be "cool". You, in turn, are associating yourself with the pariah, and people react the same way as they did in junior high: making sure they quickly draw the line before THEY start getting associated too.

We think of ourselves as self-aware, but I'm sure the aliens are laughing at our ridiculous instinctual social behaviors. :(

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as the word "Nintendo" comes before it, they can call it whatever they want.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

"You know, I think the same way of Windows Me. I personally never had an issue. It installed and ran perfectly for me. To be honest, in many ways it was one of the best OSes I've ever used."

When windows 95 came out, before osr2, the registry had a habit of getting randomly corrupted. They fixed that, completely, by the last release of windows 95. In contrast, windows me was the worst operating system ever released. They had no intention of making it a functioning product, made no attempt to and didnt care because it was abandonded to the MUCH superior 2k. It was like night and day. I don't know what level in your professional career you were at in the year 2000, but if you had any positive experience with windows ME, I cant imagine you even turned your computer on.

I don't get it.

clearly.

To each their own.

No, windows me was a steaming pile of dog shit. Easily the worst OS ever made. Your one anecdote does not change reality. Just answer one question really. Were you a computer technician at the time? In any capacity. no? then STFU

And I make the case because much like the bible, one day all these comments will be saved for history and people will use your idiot comment as evidence that "some people" thought windows me was good. I am here to say that no, no you wont change this period of history mr ac. Windows me sucked ass.

As for the zune, vista was bombing and it was en vogue to bash microsoft at the time. It did not help to be the colour brown, that might be the worst marketing failure to date in electronics. I believe it also had some kind of crazy format related restriction. There was nothing really wrong with it and im sure people could see someone liking the product. The problems people have with it are mostly superficial. So even the point of your sad anecdote is wasted.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[TheQuantumShift]

Same here. I originally got a zune because at the time (2006) it was that or the ipod if you wanted a large capacity player. Yes I know there were other devices, but the device and interface design were crap on all of them. I didn't care for the ipod; it looked awful and the interface was primitive at best (at the time), so I got a black 30GB zune. Loved the hell out of it and genuinely missed it after it died in a fire. I tried the touch model and it was ok, but the HD was perfect in form and function. The all black 16GB still gets my top vote as sexiest hardware ever. I always found the software to be good and intuitive and pretty, without being a resource hog. Only issue I ever had was that it was Windows only.

But, sadly, my HD doesn't make calls. so it gathers dust mostly; while my android phone (thats not locked in to anything), is well used.

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Anonymous Coward]

United Parcel Service Inc.'s slogan "What Can Brown Do For You" has delivered a major award.

My neighbor just got one of those lamps. Said something about it being Italian...

Re:An Ode to Zune

[Xest]

A major reason for it's failure is that they only ever invested half-arsed in it.

It was only ever released in North America, we never saw it over here in Europe for example.

In the modern globally connected world, taking a small share of a single market (i.e. North America) wont work as any chatter will be drowned out by the rest of the world saying "WTF is the Zune? anyway, about my iPod...".

It may seem less risky to do a staged release over a period of years, but it also strikes me as less likely to succeed than an all out here's our new product, available to everyone, everywhere, at the same time with a fuck load of hype in the run up to it.

Zune's failure was much less about the product, and much more about the marketing and release planning.

Good Idea

[milbournosphere]

The Zune's biggest problem was horrible branding. I've used one a couple of times and it was a solid device. But the marketing agent who decided making a 'squirt' service available on a device available in poo-brown was a good idea doomed the device and was hopefully fired. Frankly, I'm surprised the name lasted even longer than the device. Killing a bad brand name like that is a wise decision.

Re:Good Idea

[interval1066]

That was the difference. Branding. Apple had a thousand brilliant marketing campaigns that sold millions of iPods. The Zune came in shit bown. Never hire the marketing geniuses behind the Zune. Soon it won't matter any more. Anyone who is still buying a device separate from their phone to listen to music needs to have their head examined.

Re:Good Idea

[fishthegeek]

I agree with you. In my pre-Android days I actually looked at a Zune, and found myself impressed. In the end I opted for an iPod because Linux support is fairly solid, and there was no indication that the community wanted to support the Zune.

Re:Good Idea

[UnknowingFool]

The initial branding and marketing were horrible. Watching the Zune commercials you had no idea what it was or what it was for. But that wasn't the only problem. The Zune was better than the iPod for a short time. But then Apple released the iPod Touch and moved the goal posts. With iOS, the iPod Touch was a portable computing device that you could listen to/buy media, surf the web, write email, and later run tons of apps. Zune never developed that ecosystem and was always behind.

Re:Good Idea

[coinreturn]

Anyone who is still buying a device separate from their phone to listen to music needs to have their head examined.

No. Some of us don't see the need for a smart phone. I get a new shiny basic phone free from Verizon every two years.

Re:Good Idea

[interval1066]

Yes. I consign you to multiple gadget hell for ever and ever.

Re:Good Idea

[gstoddart]

Yes. I consign you to multiple gadget hell for ever and ever.

You know, some of us don't find that to be a problem.

The single gadget, in my experience, often ends up with "almost good enough at 4 different things, but not actually that good at any of them".

It really comes down to how you use them, and what you expect to get out of them. My cameras, for instance, will always be only ever that, because I can't stand the pictures that I've seen from smart phones (and because my main camera is a fairly high end DSLR). And, unless I bought an absolutely huge memory card, my music collection is way too big to put onto a phone.

Re:Good Idea

[Rurouni_Jaden]

Yes, and let us not forget that whole 'squirting' songs to other Zunes. That was just poetry.

Re:Good Idea

[coinreturn]

Yes. I consign you to multiple gadget hell for ever and ever.

I call it multiple-gadget heaven. If you lose your gadget, you lose everything at once. I have an iPad for on-the-go internet and mobile games (a phone screen is NOT big enough), a digital camera because phone cameras have shitty flashes and poor zoom, and my monster music collection would never fit on a phone.

Re:Good Idea

[ThatsMyNick]

Anyone who is still buying a device separate from their phone to listen to music needs to have their head examined.

I like the tiny form factor of the clip mp3 players, perfect for jogging (and no I dont carry my cell phone; I dont carry anything except a few dollars and my drivers licence.) I also like the fact that I can listen to it for days with having to worry about battery life. If I do play music/videos on my phone, I make sure I can get my hands on a charger in the next 6-10 hours.

Re:Good Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't worry, they'll probably replace the ailing Zune brand with something super fun like, "Portable Music for Windows Platform Professional Edition."

Re:Good Idea

[DMUTPeregrine]

I can get an iPod classic with 160GB storage. I have a Samsung Vibrant with 16GB internal storage (+ up to 64GB on a micro SDXC card.) Until higher capacity SDXC cards come out an iPod classic may still be a good choice for people with very large music collections. Soon SDXC will have up to 2TB cards, at which point separate devices for portable music really will be obsolete.

Re:Good Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

If you liked the Zune I suggest you take a look at a phone running Windows Phone 7.

It makes Android look clunky in comparison.

Re:Good Idea

[rust627]

"Anyone who is still buying a device separate from their phone to listen to music needs to have their head examined."

I have an iPhone and an iPod.

Yes i have some playlists on the phone (rarely used for playback), but the iPod is used for music playback when I don't want the playback to be interrupted by phone calls, like Back Ground Music in between bands, at whatever venue I am working at.
It is handy to be able to carry my whole music collection (close to 90G) in one player, I can't yet do that in a phone.

I chose the iPod because quite simply MP3 is a crappy format, I have had students try to convince me that MP3's ripped at ever higher and higher rates (until they take up nearly as much space as the original file and thus lose the only advantage of being converted) are fine, and yet still the compression and conversion artefacts are noticeable (and on presenting my students with an A/B/C blind test, none could tell the difference between the original CD and the iPod rip, but all of them picked the MP3 nearly every time as the worst sounding).

I mean, we went from Vinyl to CD because of a perceived improvement in quality and longevity (both arguable from different quarters), but then ripping to MP3 is to me like copying a CD on to cassette, you can do it, but it sounds worse, so why would you?

And yes there are other formats out there now, and if i were digitising my CD collection from scratch now, I may choose another format that was not available when I first did it, But it would not be MP3 !

As an aside, I buy all my music on CD and rip to iTunes, but I am rare person these days, yes I have some playlists but often I will listen to whole albums at a time, and it is almost always cheaper to buy a whole CD than to buy the Album on iTunes. and on the rare occasions that I am after 1 track only by an artist, that track will often be on a compilation CD with some other tracks I am interested in , so I buy that, and end up with more music for the same cost as a few downloads, plus of course the free albums I am given by the Artists I work for.

Re:Good Idea

[Daengbo]

Do not take this as an attack on you or your lifestyle, but I am still confused that there are people who have earplugs in so much of their lives that they need to carry around 50-100 days of 24-hour music. For me, 1-2 hours of music would be fine for a day. Maybe 15 hours for a week's vacation. But 10,000 hours or similar? I can't even imagine ever listening to that much music -- maybe not even in my lifetime, since I listed to songs that I like repeatedly.

I mean, an iPod requires a computer and iTunes to sync to, right?

And, yeah, I'm old. Walkman generation.

Re:Good Idea

[hugh nicks]

Anyone who is still buying a device separate from their phone to listen to music needs to have their head examined.

No. Some of us don't see the need for a smart phone. I get a new shiny basic phone free from Verizon every two years.

If you don't need a smart phone, and only get a basic one, then why the hell do you need one every 2 years? More landfill for everyone, I suppose.

Re:Good Idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad branding, and spectacularly bad software on launch. The "Welcome to the Social" campaign just made it sound like it was invented by someone's grandparents, and the the choice of music to back it was just obnoxious (a collection of annoying indie bands). Restricting wifi so it can only communicate with other Zunes was just odd (though this features was later changed and enhanced).

It's really a solid bit of hardware though, and the software wasn't half bad once they updated it. I'm still using an old 30gb one for music while I'm driving.

Re:Good Idea

[DMUTPeregrine]

I tend to listen to my music in "shuffle all" mode, and use the same device when driving as when walking with earbuds in. The point of "take all your music with you" is not to listen continuously, but to be able to access it at any time. If I want to listen to Pink Floyd I can. If I want to listen to Loreena McKennit I can. And I don't have to drive/walk home, re-sync my device, and then drive back to wherever I was before.

Partly I think it is because I have a very broad taste in music: I like medieval, Renaissance, baroque, jazz, classic rock, progressive rock, hard rock, death metal, black metal, symphonic metal, power metal, Irish folk, Scottish folk, Norse folk, viking rock, Celtic rock, electronica, and a few songs of other genres. A large, portable collection gives me the ability to listen to whatever suits my mood. I can't do that with a 4GB device.

That said, my total music collection isn't that big. It's about 35GiB. 17 days of music, about 815 albums. Quite a lot of it is FLAC, not MP3. My dad's record collection is easily over 1000 albums. It takes up a significant amount of space, is harder to sort through, and far more difficult to carry around.

I also listen to music quite often while working/gaming/other leisure, so I often end up listening to music 6-8 hours of each day. Many games have music I don't like, so I just mute that and play my own. Instrumental music did not significantly decrease my work ability when I last tested a few years ago. While commuting/reading the news/writing slashdot posts I see no reason not to listen to music. And since I also play Great Highland Bagpipes I spend about an hour each day practicing, part of which is listening to the tunes I'm trying to learn.

Re:Good Idea

[coinreturn]

If you don't need a smart phone, and only get a basic one, then why the hell do you need one every 2 years? More landfill for everyone, I suppose.

I don't need a new one every two years. I don't even get one every two years. However, any time my phone breaks, I get a new one for free so long as I don't break more than one every two years. So far, I have never paid for a phone in the ten years I've had one.

Queue Nelson Muntz

[oDDmON oUT]

Ha-HA!

Parse Error

[SuperKendall]

and think of how boned the Zune lifetime pass owners are.

They didn't say YOUR lifetime.

Microsoft Account

[ThatsNotPudding]

"Just as fun as it sounds!!"

Re:Microsoft Account

[tapspace]

No worries. It'll be back to "Microsoft Windows 9 Live Party by Bing" in 2 years.

MICROSOFT!

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

Please ABANDON ME!

My GOD! The first times they copied Apple and Google didn't work out exactly as planned, so they hide the corpse, and try THE SAME THING AGAIN!

Re:MICROSOFT!

[Mister Whirly]

Much like Apple did. Sometimes it takes 10-15 years for your clever thievery to pay off.

Zune Man

[domatic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzRBtToSarE

None of them do the same thing

[SuperKendall]

Come on, none of the examples you give work. Google might kill something occasionally but what is still there doesn't fundamentally change identity every few years. Apple keeps development stuff around forever, just building atop it.

Someone who used Oracle five years ago probably wouldn't have any trouble starting in on Oracle again today. Linux, I can still use a WM I used 20 years ago if I feel like it...

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

Apple changes things at pretty much the same rate...

iTools - Originally launched as a free collection of internet services for users of Mac OS
Then "relaunched" in 2002 as a paid subscription as ".Mac"
Then "relaunched" again in 2008 as "MobileMe"
which it discontinued offering, and will kill in 2012 entirely
as it herds everyone over to its newly launched "iCloud"

I'd say Apple is pretty much exactly the same thing.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[Ihmhi]

Apple changes things at pretty much the same rate...

Exactly! Remember when they completely shut down iTunes 5 years ago?

Re:None of them do the same thing

[UnknowingFool]

You have shown the same example multiple times. That is not the same as many different examples.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

If it had been as successful as zune market or whatever, I expect they would have.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

You have shown the same example multiple times. That is not the same as many different examples.

I thought the complaint was that microsoft was constantly changing direction and dropping brandnames and reworking services into something else.

iTools -> .Mac -> MobileMe -> iCloud

is one example of Apple doing the same thing with one of their services (and not just once, but regularly)

Re:None of them do the same thing

[UnknowingFool]

The OP listed many examples of MS changes: .NET, Silverlight, PlaysForSure, Zune. You keep listing the same example.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting as AC because there's no point posting logged in all the way down here. I modded elsewhere.

You picked up on the point I wanted to see made, that one tool with 4 names (in parent's post) is not the same as 4 tools. So Yes, MS has ditched a lot of stuff. Apple has ditched a few things, but held onto their core signature brands a little better.

I especially watched with cynicism, MS's efforts in the Music space. They got to where they are by Universality - "every one of 100 hardware brands ran MS Windows and Office."

Then with the whole Music fiasco they got onto a LockIn fetish, but by then we'd had 8 years wrestling with THAT problem, so we said "stuff it". Finally Apple forced the hand with basic mp3's.

So I buy neither iPods, nor Zunes. I stay low-tek, with 3rd tier unassuming mp3 players from 3rd tier companies scraping the bottom of the market. You know what? Honestly? Except for one artist who does 110 meg 70 minute tunes, 1GB will hold (pick a number) 40 songs. Three of them hold 125 songs. (5 were short.) So ya know? I don't listen to all 125 songs in less than a month.

All of this loops back to being glad to ignore MS's desperate brand attempts including blog hype, only to have them kill it 4 years later.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[Proudrooster]

Seriously, Google is terrified of Facebook. Google has totally screwed up its UI in order to be more "social" and everyone hates it. The new GMAIL interface is wretched, Plus+, Photo, it's all a mess. It's an attempt to try and turn Google into Facebook. I am really sick of the Google UI changes and which Google would stay Google and Facebook would just go away.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[kyrio]

Just get a Cowon, seeing as they have better products than anyone else. Or a Sansa Clip+, I think that' still ultra recommended.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

OpenDoc
Xserve
Newton
Final Cut Studio
Shake
QuickDraw3D ...

Re:None of them do the same thing

[UnknowingFool]

Now you're getting desperate. Those do not remotely fall into the pattern that was described by the OP. Please read what the OP wrote.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

Bullshit.

Quickdraw3d and opendoc are both parallel examples to silverlight... especially quickdraw3d

The newton parallels the Zune .mac/icloud/whatever parallels hotmail/windowslive/whatever

Re:None of them do the same thing

[UnknowingFool]

Sigh. Do you know anything about QuickDraw? From wikipedia:

QuickDraw started life as LisaGraf, as part of the Apple Lisa development. . . .With Mac OS X, QuickDraw became part of the Carbon API. With the release of Mac OS X 10.4, QuickDraw was officially deprecated.

So Apple's basic library set started in the early 1980s. Overtime, it became part of Mac OS. It was changed over the years to add more functionality. It was added/ported into OS X. Finally, after 20+ years of development in 2005, it was deprecated in favor of something else when Apple changed APIs to favor Cocoa instead of Carbon. Tell me how that is similar to Silverlight which was introduced in 2007 and is on version 5.

The newton parallels the Zune

There is a thing called wikipedia you can use for free: The Apple Newton started development in 1987 with the first products in 1993 and ended all development in 1998. Apple cancelled a product line that wasn't successful when they were in financial troubles as part of a larger overhaul to simplify their product lines. I don't know if Jobs would have killed Newton otherwise but I suspect it didn't fall into his direction. By my estimate, MS is sitting on billions in cash. Instead we have MS cancelling the product, then retracting the cancellation, then retracting the retraction.

.mac/icloud/whatever parallels hotmail/windowslive/whatever

And you still only have 1 example.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[vux984]

, it was deprecated in favor of something else when Apple changed APIs to favor Cocoa instead of Carbon

It was discontinued when apple decided to use opengl instead of their own 3d api. That is a lot like Microsoft killing silverlight to focus on html 5.

And silverlight -- if you can count quickdraw3d as being evolved from lisagraf than silverlight didn't pop out in 2007 its roots are in dotNet. And even if silverlight dies, a lot that's in it will live on.

Apple cancelled a product line that wasn't successful

Like the Zune. Financial trouble or not, the Zune hasn't been a rousing success, and the standalone mp3 market itself is collapsing as smartphones and handheld consoles eat away at the market.

Re:None of them do the same thing

[UnknowingFool]

It was discontinued when apple decided to use opengl instead of their own 3d api. That is a lot like Microsoft killing silverlight to focus on html 5.

You are stretching what the OP said to squeeze QuickDraw 3D into your example. The OP said

How can anyone invest themselves in any Microsoft product when they change branding/strategy/support so much? Even if a product manages to stay around over 3-5 years, they give it an overhaul and change the way it works so people have to get used to it all over again.

And silverlight -- if you can count quickdraw3d as being evolved from lisagraf than silverlight didn't pop out in 2007 its roots are in dotNet. And even if silverlight dies, a lot that's in it will live on.

Please. That is not close to being parallel. QuickDraw actually goes back 20+ years. Silverlight did not include .NET until version 2 (or 1.1 whichever version system) The original version relied on JavaScript and not one of the .NET languages.

ahhh

[Anonymous Coward]

I eagerly await the next genius offerings microsoft has after windows live and zune.

Hey now

[SuperKendall]

What can brown do for anybody?

UPS might have something to say about that.

But...

[mattgoldey]

How do you kill that which has no life?

Re:But...

[PatPending]

How do you kill that which has no life?

Take away his access to the Internet.

Re:But...

[Daengbo]

Double-tap headshot to the Zune-bie.

50% because of low bond prices

[alexander_686]

A good chunk Between 5% to 10% of the increase of the 20% increase can be ascribed to the low treasury rates. Stock prices raise when bond yields fall. A 2% dividend yield looks very attractive against a 0% treasury. (And stocks tend to hold their value better than bonds in inflationary periods – which a lot of people think will be happening.)

Sad panda

[Anonymous Coward]

Metro is an ugly piece of shit. MS has gone insane.

just need a ISO and the key on the case to do

[Joe_Dragon]

just need a ISO and the key on the case to do a clean install

Re:just need a ISO and the key on the case to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, just need your vendor-specific OEM ISO and the key on the case. Good luck getting that ISO legally.

Re:just need a ISO and the key on the case to do

[Joe_Dragon]

http://www.mydigitallife.info/download-windows-7-iso-official-32-bit-and-64-bit-direct-download-links/

what about the user-facing CEO?

[mbkennel]

If anything needed to be deprecated or "killed off"......

Changed names but not discarded

[SuperKendall]

Ok, I'll give you that one example. But that's the only one and the service is still around, though changed...

Microsoft has as mentioned many examples of fickle thought, like SIlverlight and WinFS and Windows Live and so on.

Re:Changed names but not discarded

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, Cocoa / Carbon
Any of their 'professional' tools (Final Cut is the poster child)
The App Store
Mountain Lion not running on 3 year old hardware
Floppies
Parallel ports

Apple loves to deprecate things. You can argue that there is a method to their madness, but it sucks if you want to keep hardware running for more than 3 - 4 years.

Re:Changed names but not discarded

[vux984]

like SIlverlight and WinFS and Windows Live and so on.

WinFS meet OpenDoc
Zune meet Xserve ...

Apple's list might not be as long... but any tech companies past is littered with projects that got dropped after failing to gain enough momentum or after hitting technical or other obstacles...

It was a me too product.

[HappyEngineer]

Apple looks at markets that have crappy products and makes good ones. Anyone who comes in after Apple will have to show that their product is not just a me too product. Google was able to do this with Android by filling various niches with a high quality product which the iPhone wasn't addressing. Then they moved into direct competition by releasing high end phones that compete directly. It didn't hurt that Google still has a respected name.

Microsoft didn't do that. They released a high end product which competed directly with the iPod but which didn't really look as good (to most people) and came with the baggage of the Microsoft name (the name is either neutral or negative. I don't know anyone who considers it a positive.). That was the first impression and they never did anything with the Zune that was big enough to warrant second looks from most people.

There will always be people who defend any product, but the fact is that Microsoft is just no good at designing flashy products. Heck, they're not even good at making good me too products. It took years before Windows had a GUI that was as good as the Mac. Steve Jobs was angry at Google because Google has people who can look at a good product and do it just as well or better. He wasn't angry at Microsoft at that point because the people there are good but not great. He always said they put no soul in their products.

Windows Life, I bid you adieu

[slacker22]

I can't say I'm too disappointed about Live being canned. I installed the product family when prompted to after installing Windows 7 and promptly removed it. I prefer the idea of branding it 'Microsoft Account'. It sounds more like an email address I could email potential employers from.

lol

[crutchy]

delete bloatware

idiot

Price Structure (Re:An Ode to Zune)

[EXTomar]

Really the price structure of having a subscription was either ahead of its time or too exotic and especially made no sense with Last.FM or Pandora. In some ways it was ahead of its time and others it was just exotic for being exotic.

I personally never liked the interface. My dad got one and I could never figure it out at a glance where instead I had to "study" it to figure out what I wanted it to do. For instance: While playing it will artistically scroll multiple pieces of text the screen but if I wasn't familiar with the song or artist I had no idea what it meant. Is "Nightfall" the name of the track, the play list or album, the composer, singer, or what??? It could have been the theme or mode for all I knew!

Basically they took all this time to do Apple IDs

[Vandil X]

Hotmail account
Passport account
.NET Passport account
Windows Live ID
now finally just "Microsoft account". It's about time.

Zune Pass Spotify

[tapspace]

I have Spotify on my iphone and at least once a week I dream of a world with a Zune app instead. I've used them all (Rhapsody, Spotify, Zune and tried Yahoo/Napster) and the Zune Pass is the best and most bang for your buck.

Microsoft has lost focus...

[blahplusplus]

... it's trying to do too many things and it has long since stopped focusing on product quality.

Take the start menu, it's been ten years and it took them a decade after search engines existed to put in autocomplete into windows and search onto the startmenu. The user interface design in many modern programs are pretty horrible and the whole theory behind usability is not there yet. You shouldn't have to go through too many hoops to get to where you want to go in any given program. Figuring this out of course is obviously non-obvious since even google's start page after all these years is pretty damn simple in terms of it's UI. Whole classes of apps are still more cumbersome then they need to be and no one has been focusing efforts to improve applications even though there are tonnes of killer apps that are out there that no one has programmed yet.

Windows Live Writer

[Jason Levine]

I wonder what this means for Windows Live Writer? My wife and I use this frequently. Granted, even if they kill it, we can still use it for some time, but we actually like this tool and it would be a shame to see Microsoft kill it.

Screwed Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Owned a couple of "plays for sure" devices and when they phased that out (DRM and all) we bought a couple of Zunes only to be screwed again. Microsoft is run by overaggressive product managers who don't give a crap about their customers. I am a slow learner but there is NO 3rd chance for Microsoft to get it wrong at my house.