Slashdot Mirror


Smartphones More Dangerous Than Alcohol, When Driving

judgecorp writes "The Institute of Advanced Motorists in the UK has carried out live tests which prove that using smartphones impairs driving ability more than drug or alcohol use, making reaction times 37.6 percent slower (PDF). The result is a big concern since a quarter of drivers admit to sending texts from their phones while driving. 'Young people have grown up with smartphones and using them is part of everyday life. But more work needs to be done by the government and social network providers to show young people that they are risking their lives and the lives of others if they use their smartphones while driving.'"

358 comments

  1. more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More laws on the way - I can't wait

    1. Re:more laws by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More laws on the way - I can't wait

      Already laws. Just get them enforced.

      Couple days ago I'm sitting in my car in a parking lot and nearly creamed by an SUV-driving phoner. Tricky enough on the street, but parking lots are mazes where unpredictable things are the norm - people walk out of nowhere, car suddenly backs out, car suddenly comes around blind corner, etc. You need to be on your toes there - besides, parking lot accidents are paid for by YOU -- fault, in my experience is never assigned on private property or public parking lots. Tough beans, even if you were not at fault. If you are at fault, you may find yourself taken to court for whatever your insurer is unwilling to cover.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    2. Re:more laws by Raisey-raison · · Score: 1

      I don't dispute the importance of road safety.......

      But what is it with the obsession with taking away motorists rights? They can be pulled over for any reason that the police might make up. The thrust of policy seems to be making their lives more miserable, encouraging congestion, raising prices to drive, lowering local speed limits etc.

      And if you care about saving lives - why not care about the current NHS reforms which I am sure will mean a worse level of service for those who cannot afford private care. Undoubtedly people will die as a consequence.

      People also die when they are homeless or don't have adequate access to housing - caused by draconian zoning policies (extreme green belt laws mean that you need to be very well off to buy a home in the south of the UK - now middle class people buy ex council flats.)

      People die because of the war on drugs - why not deal with that?

      Disabled people have a nasty habbit of dying especially when you cut their already miserly disability benefits.

      People have short life expectancy when they are poor - why not deal with increasing income inequality?

      Instead we overly obsess about the roads. Maybe it useful for governments because it distracts from more important issues.

    3. Re:more laws by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      There are indeed a lot of bad/populist/NIMBYist laws about driving in the UK.

      Banning using a phone while driving is not one of them. It's just a shame it only covers handhelds.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    4. Re:more laws by QuantumLeaper · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you want to get hit by some idiot driver who is using their cell phone in a parking lot. Because that almost happened to me a couple of days ago, he would have hit me and then ran into a couple parked cars. If I hadn't noticed he was looking down at his phone and not looking forward. 3 mph or 30 mph, it doesn't matter, it still dangerous.

    5. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why not reframe the question? If I where an operator of a gantry crane and you worked in very close proximity to me. Would you want me texting while I was moving two tons of metal near you? Would you not fire someone for being drunk while operating that same crane(instead of making them take classes)? Wouldn't you at least give the operator a tongue lashing for operating the crane unsafely, even when no-one was hurt?

      Cars are extremely dangerous, more dangerous than guns because people operate them very frequently and at least some people operate them with little or absolutely no thought of what is safe. I could spout a hundred anecdotes about how I and other operated cars in a manner that was unthinking and unsafe. It is a miracle that people don't die more often in car accidents.

      What would you say about someone who brandished a handgun in order to get someone to get out of the way? Then think of the same thing the next time you or someone you know creeps up on a pedestrian in a crasswalk because the driver is in a hurry or just doesn't like being made to wait four second.

      The reason car driver's 'rights', which I can only assume you mean the 'right to drive fast and ignore proscribed procedures', are taken away is because people are stupid and ignorant and need to be told what to do because we are self-destructive by nature. Especially when we get a little adrenaline rush from driving fast or narrowly avoiding an accident.

    6. Re:more laws by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Studies show that new laws improve state revenue.

      Unfortunately there is little or no effort in trying to actually reduce the laws out there, because there is so much revenue is finding Law Breakers.
      For example those No-Turn on Red Signs places right in the spot where if you are stopped at a red light the sign is parallel to your view so you cannot see the sign, so you may just turn on red, vs. putting them next to the red light, like they do in areas where there is actually a major safety concern for turning on red.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:more laws by lgw · · Score: 2

      Right. "All laws that take away rights are bad, except the ones I like, those are fine." Gotcha.

      Just because a behavior is bad doesn't automatically mean that a law baning it is good. Will the law actually reduce the frequency of the behavior? To an extent that really outweighs the accompanying loss of freedom? And the misuse of the law by malicious government/cops/etc? And the cost of enforcement? It needs to be a net gain, with full understanding of all the ways it costs us when we goven more power to the government.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:more laws by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      But what is it with the obsession with taking away motorists rights? They can be pulled over for any reason that the police might make up.

      A safety inspection.

      Old enough to start driving (a very long time ago), apparently I looked suspicious and was pulled over.

      "Your rear lights were flashing, let's look in the trunk and see if it's the wiring", the cops says.

      So pulled over and searched for no reason other than a safety inspection; which I "passed" and was sent on my way.

      Oh ya, any time they wish.

    9. Re:more laws by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

      The law of natural selection is already operating at peak efficiency.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    10. Re:more laws by sortius_nod · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true.

      If you put the phone on your lap you're still going to be picked up by the police. Your argument doesn't even stand up to the basic tests of logic. By your rationale, murder laws make it harder for people to murder, so it makes it worse. Seriously, are you off your face? Do you neocon/libertarians even get how laws work?

      If you want to live in a country with no laws, go spend some time in DRC or another war torn country, you can text to your heart's content while driving, just mind the rifles being fired at your face.

    11. Re:more laws by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      1) statistics can back-up the premise, but I don't know that it can be strongly determined.
      2) it's more like saying making the penalty for child-rape death increases child-murder, as killing the victem reduces odds of getting caught

      May or may not be true, either, but at least it's an accurate analogy.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    12. Re:more laws by Defenestrar · · Score: 1

      Most death in the UK is from cardiopulmonary related issues. These are often not preventable (something one can delay, or trade for another category) - typical human end of life stuff. After that is cancer - some of this is access to care (particularly early access), but much of which is still luck of the draw. Government can sponsor research, and it can improve access to care, but a lot of current cancer related death isn't something that can be impacted by the government very easily. Accidents however are something that is, by comparison, dead easy to influence from the government perspective (new laws, enforcement of existing law). So, of the examples you've listed and the stat's I've linked to here - it's a dumb simple selection for traffic as the most effective point of government interaction. Not that the other (and harder) problem's shouldn't be addressed, but I would think traffic is a logical emphasis rather than an illogical obsession.

      Related to where I live, the UK does rather well compared to the US - about half of the accidental death rate as ours (5%).

    13. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Motorists rights"?

      Perhaps you are in a different country. In my state in the U.S. I have to prove competency with written and driving tests and if passed I get a license to operate a motor vehicle for a specified length of time.

      Just double checked and the Bill of Rights has no reference either so I'm pretty sure there is no "right to drive a car" in the U.S.

      No this access to taxes paid for roads is not a right. Multi-thousand pound moving vehicles have proven to be somewhat dangerous and so "we" as a society have tried to minimize some of the risk. As such, drivers tests, seat belts, insurance, helmets, cell phones etc. are all perfectly within the purview of the government(s) to limit/define as to protect the masses if you want this privilege. (Some people actually have their license revoked! Pretty hard to do that with a right.)

      I for one, support this approach.

      It is sad however that many Americans don't understand this.

    14. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AC you responded to speaking. Here's an example source for you: http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr092810.html

    15. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even at a stoplight, these idiots exist. One guy was looking at his phone and rolling slowly backwards at a light. I was in the next lane over. He almost hit the car behind him until I honked and he figured it out.

    16. Re:more laws by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
      I live/drive in the UK (London) - I often spend more than 15 minutes without moving one car length. I do not think it would be dangerous to send a text in the situation where the car can't move - but there is no chance that the law would distinguish between texting when safe to do so and when not. If we needed to do that, we could charge people who text when it is dangerous to do so would be charged with "driving without due care and attention" - which they are obviously guilty of.

      A law against using a phone would just be used to harass people who are cheeky to the police, or because they are black.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    17. Re:more laws by Wingfat · · Score: 1

      agreed.. they just need to enforce it for real. What i dont get. is those lame people with expensive cars that do not have bluetooh built into their stereo cant go out and spend $20 on a head set? i mean really now.. I have 5, two in each car and one back up at home. my new car has bluetooth built in so i dont even need the 2 in there, they are just there to give to silly people that dont have them. I see more and more accidents early in the mornings now than ever and i am sure it is because people are checking their status updates as they are drving to work. join me in the FBT4All (Free BlueTooth for all). and dont drive too close to me, as i will have my Jammer on, no GPS or Cell activity by me on the way into work.

    18. Re:more laws by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You need to be on your toes there - besides, parking lot accidents are paid for by YOU -- fault, in my experience is never assigned on private property or public parking lots. Tough beans, even if you were not at fault.

      I can confirm that. I got broad sided in a supermarket parking lot some years ago by a guy in an SUV driving what seemed like 55 mph right though an intersection that had STOP painted on the pavement. The cop that arrived on the scene pointed out that, not only was that STOP on the pavement not a legal stop sign, the issues was moot, as the laws in general do NOT apply in parking lots. He could have been driving 100 mph. Ever since then I have an extra special disdain for anyone driving fast in parking lots...by which I mean that I get tempted to chase them down and beat the living shit out of them.

    19. Re:more laws by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      Well, technically either there is a right to drive or the states have co-opted the granting of that right for themselves. As drivers licenses have never been ruled unconstitutional, I guess it's the latter. But the absence of such a right in the U.S. Constitution actually implies that it might be a right, not that it isn't one!

    20. Re:more laws by nukenerd · · Score: 2

      Raisey-raison wrote :-

      we overly obsess about the roads

      News to me. I always had the impression that individuals (from the way they drive), the authorities and (most importantly) the media hardly gave a f@#k about road accidents unless one is particularly spectacular. If you worked in the industries I have (shipbuilding, railways and power) you would be struck by the contrast between the fanatical pursuit of safety at work (such as putting up a "Do not kick the fir cones!" sign by a group of fir trees on site), and the free-for-all on the roads outside.

      There is a sign as you enter the site where I work : "Safety starts here". I once suggested to our Site Safety Officer that it should say "Safety Stops Here" as you drive out, because it does for most people.

      A fatal road accident is unlikely to get more than a couple of column inches in a local paper, yet a railway accident (for example) killing anybody, or even no-one, is the subject of national news headlines for days, if not still coming up years later [Eg: The case of the Darwin Award contenders at Elsenham 7 years ago). Basically, it is because most people think they are too "clever" to have a road accident themselves, but on a train they feel at the mercy of the railway.

    21. Re:more laws by Eponymous+Hero · · Score: 1

      haven't you seen the movie In Time? you're supposed to die, so the rich can stay rich. your_time == their_money. so hurry up and die because you're wasting their money.

      --
      insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
    22. Re:more laws by _8553454222834292266 · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Just because you believe something, doesn't make it true.

      Applies to your entire post.

      If you put the phone on your lap you're still going to be picked up by the police.

      How do you expect that to work? Can the cops see your lap or where your eyes are?

      By your rationale, murder laws make it harder for people to murder, so it makes it worse.

      No, that's not what he's saying. He's not necessarily right but whether he is or not depends on evidence. It's not a logical argument, it's a hypothesis that needs testing. In the case of murder, he would have to be saying: laws against murder make people more likely to murder.
      It really depends on the law in question. In this case, he's guessing that the people hiding their texting will cause a greater risk of accidents relative to the benefit of the people who will stop texting. Can't logically determine how all that will work out. Seems to be saying: people will mostly continue to text but now will be even more distracted to hide their phones.

      Do you neocon/libertarians even get how laws work?

      Do you know what words mean? Neocon != Libertarian.

      If you want to live in a country with no laws, go spend some time in DRC or another war torn country, you can text to your heart's content while driving, just mind the rifles being fired at your face.

      Stop making up bullshit. He didn't say he wanted to live in a country with "no laws". He was simply questioning whether this particular law would actually benefit society on average.

    23. Re:more laws by _8553454222834292266 · · Score: 1

      Also, neither libertarians nor neocons believe we should have "no laws".

    24. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I especially like it when they drift into your lane until you think they are going to hit you. You look over and the other driver has a phone jammed against their ear. Happens way too often.

      Tough beans, even if you were not at fault.

      And even if you aren't at fault if the accident is bad enough you can spend the rest of your life with screwed up knees, neck pain, etc. No payoff can fix some injuries.

    25. Re:more laws by janeil · · Score: 2
      Hands-free phone use is also more dangerous than alcohol, from the article:

      37.4 percent slower reaction times while texting, 26.5 percent while having a hands-free phone conversation, 21 per cent while under the influence of cannabis and 12.5 percent while at the legal limit for alcohol.

    26. Re:more laws by JeanCroix · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, if there is no "right" to drive while drunk, and there is evidence showing that texting while driving is even more dangerous than drunken driving, why is there a persistent notion that there should still exist a "right" to text and drive?

    27. Re:more laws by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      It isn't using your hands that is the issue as much as the fact they are in an extremely distracting conversation with someone who can't go "Hey, watch the road."

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
    28. Re:more laws by realityimpaired · · Score: 0

      You do realize that you're supposed to scan the road, and be aware of the signage around an intersection long before you actually reach the intersection, right? It's not some vast conspiracy, putting no right turn signs at the side of the road so you can't see them when you're stopped at the intersection, it's people making the (perhaps incorrect) assumption that you know how to drive and have enough situational awareness to have seen the sign before you reached the intersection.

    29. Re:more laws by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2

      Whether or not laws against murder actually deter murder doesn't matter to whether or not their should be laws against murder. If an 27 year detention period is a detriment, but a 25 year one not, then you're having a useful discussion.

      Texting while driving is really f'n dangerous to you, and to everyone else on the road. It kills people and causes significant material losses, so pretty obviously it warrants rules against it (those laws in many cases already exists, a study like this merely clarifies that they should apply to those existing laws). Beyond that it is a matter of degree as to what should or should not be done to keep people off the road. Texting while driving should be illegal, the question is what is the most effective enforcement mechanism to reduce it. A $7 fine? A $170 fine? a $1700 fine? Roadside seizure? (where the car is towed but still owned by the driver they can pick it up later), confiscation? Jail (for how long?).

      If you can't reasonably decide if something is bad (e.g. swearing) then you can't reasonably compose laws about it, sure. But in the context of what you can do while driving, texting, talking on the phone (hands free or otherwise) it's clear it shouldn't be allowed.

      This has significant implications for car manufacturers, which is less about criminal laws and more about regularly compliance. If you using a hands free phone while driving should be banned well car companies need to stop making hands free cell integration into their vehicles, *or* find a way that it will reduce the distraction effect.

    30. Re:more laws by ackthpt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I dont think talking is going to distract me (but i am well above average in every aspect) . And if you cant talk and drive at the same time, then your license should be taken away. that should be part of all the new driving tests. you have to call and talk to a memeber of your family for 10min while navigating the streets of San Francisco.

      I don't care how above average you think you are. My car his been hit by people I'd consider very good drivers, but their attention was divided for just the amount of time necessary where opportunity to smash into my car was present. Nothing asserts reality like standing around waiting for the cops, while an angry motorist is glaring at you for your bone-headed driving distractions you bring upon yourself and ultimately inconvenience you and other unwilling participants.

      Really. I've heard it time and again, and there isn't a day goes by around here where someone is hit or hitting. Often in the places you'd think it wouldn't happen - sitting in a stationary vehicle at a light when another ploughs into the back of you.

      I'd like to see driving bans for the first offense. Try riding the bus for three months as a reminder it is a privilege, not a right to be able to drive a car.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    31. Re:more laws by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Completely unrelated.

      A motorist retains right as a person. If you cannot bar a persons right to speech in a park on the street etc. can you ban it when they are driving? This goes to the falsely shouting fire in a crowded theatre argument, and you do not have a right to that. In this case any speech at all creates a significant danger to other motorists.

      Think of it this way: A person is a motorist. You cannot take away their right to have "I hate /.ers" bumper stickers - that's a non infringing free speech.

      Whether or not there is a 'right' to use roads has been clearly long settled. You could get into a question of rights if the government could prohibit you from taking a driving test because you're say black, or a woman. But as it is there is a universal right to be considered to the same standard as everyone else for driving or a passport or the like.

    32. Re:more laws by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      The problem is driving is not a right but they hand out driving licences like candy so actually there are a lot of people on the road that shouldn't be and they have no incentive to improve. The odds of them losing their licence is almost nil so long as they don't drive drunk.

      Drivers can cry all they want about their rights but there are the rights of the people walking and cycling around them too. Driving is serious business and imo they need to stop handing out licences so easily and make it easier for irresponsible drivers to lose their licence and have to go through the whole process again after a certain time period.

      After that then there isn't much need to make laws for specific issues. People who want to keep their license will think twice and those that don't are taken off the road.

    33. Re:more laws by Wingfat · · Score: 0

      I like your banning idea. works great, but add in 3 strikes and your DL is gone forever! and then people would actully listen and be better. oh & my supurb driving skills have landed me wins in local races at Infineon raceway, as well as never have been in an accident that was my fault. only been hit once and that dude was drunk.. but i saw him coming and avoided a bad accident to where his car was totaled and I could drive away with my minor rear end damage. i guess those days at the race tracks have paid off.

    34. Re:more laws by IVI+V+K · · Score: 2

      While you may have a right to travel, there is no right to drive and there never will be.
      Driving is a privilege with the highest of responsibility, requiring you to never harm peoples lives or property.

      Police have the right to pull any driver over for dangerous driving. Any reasonable distractions can be considered dangerous by the police and they should have full discretion on defining the risk posed by a distracted driver.
      So the point of these new laws, is more to clarify and inform drivers that common behaviors are distractions that are considered illegal while driving.

      If you need to be distracted, use a phone, text, or use any device other than the driving controls of your car, Do not drive.
      Otherwise you will be making a premeditated decision to risk the lives of all the pedestrians and other drivers around you i.e. Murder not manslaughter.

      Driving is the leading cause of accidental death by massive margins.

      Maybe there isn't a law banning juggling while driving, but it will get you pulled over just the same.

    35. Re:more laws by dr2chase · · Score: 2

      Just the opposite -- if you make driving onerous enough, people will get around some other way, which usually involves more physical activity. More exercise means reduced deaths from CP disease can (somewhat) reduced deaths from cancer. It might not be the intended effect of the laws, and it might take really draconian and obnoxious laws (that would likely be repealed by an angry mob of voting drivers), but the estimates of death-from-car-induced-lack-of-exercise are higher than the estimates of deaths from car crashes. (Links, I know, you want them. Sigh. Later. I have to DRIVE home to transport a kid to soccer practice, maybe she'll let me use the bike to get her there, no irony in my life, no, not at all.)

    36. Re:more laws by Endo13 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The only way to really solve the problem is to make it impossible to text while driving.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    37. Re:more laws by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      I worked for a company where we had to dispatch drivers and stay in constant contact with them. Since we served the entire Northeast, the most practical way to do this cheaply was a cell phone for each employee. We'd usually pay some (or all) of their bill. If the phone they owned was terrible we'd buy them a new one.

      From a business standpoint, we need to be able to reach them at all times. Sometimes they're on the road for four hours - they're not gonna like it if they get to Pennsylvania and we've been trying to call them since New Jersey so they can reroute to Connecticut for an emergency call.

      The one thing that would make this whole law very, very fair is to make it legal to pull over onto the shoulder at any time for any reason. A lot of places have "Emergency Stops Only" signs, so under these laws our guys only have a choice between which ticket they would get.

    38. Re:more laws by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 2

      So we've proven that diverted concentration is worse than lowered ability. I'll take the 'drunk' who can 'sober up' immediately thank you very much.

      Reaction times might be slower, but the 2nd and 3rd and 4th reaction are going to be much much better than any drunk. It may be that the 1st is too much of a loss to be counteracted by the subsequent reactions, but someone who 'can' be in control would seem to a better bet than a drunk who simply can't be in control.

      Besides cops do this every day, with the radio, laptops and overall observations of everything around them. The difference between cops and everybody else?

      Training to do the multitasking properly. Adding new gadgets without any training is always going to cause problems.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    39. Re:more laws by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      Dang, that is a fantastic idea about license suspension for 3 months. Wish I had mod points.

    40. Re:more laws by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      I like your banning idea. works great, but add in 3 strikes and your DL is gone forever! and then people would actully listen and be better.
        oh & my supurb driving skills have landed me wins in local races at Infineon raceway, as well as never have been in an accident that was my fault. only been hit once and that dude was drunk.. but i saw him coming and avoided a bad accident to where his car was totaled and I could drive away with my minor rear end damage. i guess those days at the race tracks have paid off.

      I'm only guessing, but I'm thinking you weren't on your phone while driving at Infineon.

      All it takes is once.

      A good friend was runover by a driver, on a street with speed bumps. Speed isn't the only factor in accidents, just provides more kinetic energy. Try navigating a parking lot on Saturday afternoon while on a phone. I find it requires maximum alertness.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    41. Re:more laws by kryliss · · Score: 1

      Over 10 years doing internet tech support and having to multitask talking, looking at the computer etc... and I still won't talk/text and drive even though I can do it with ease.

      --
      --- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
    42. Re:more laws by lgw · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Whether or not laws against murder actually deter murder doesn't matter to whether or not their should be laws against murder

      Of course that matters! How can you even say otherwise? If the law somehow increased the number of murders, it would be a stupid law. With murder it's hard to imaging such a law, but that's been a legitimate discussion with some of the drug laws.

      The worst thing we do in societies these days is outlaw stuff on the basis that it's "icky". I don't want to see it, so let's make it illegal (so even if there's then more of it, at least it will be hidden). It's a terrible, harmful way to govern.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    43. Re:more laws by Wingfat · · Score: 0

      heheheh.. not on the Phone at Infineon, but with a headset connected to a pit crew. i think that was more distracting then when i call my wife on my way home from work to tell her how bad the traffic is ;-) and isnt that what Voice to Text speech rec is for? doenst everyone use it? hehehehe i'm not the one to talk to about this as i BOYCOTT Data plans. (yes even with my Xperia Play) I only use my phone in my car to talk to people, but i wanted to i could use my google voice and do speech to text all day long driving backwards in a parking lot with one knee. I have driven before from Walnut Creek, CA to San Fran with out using my hands. I have drove long distances on Route 66 while everyone was in the back seat of the car. using three brooms.

    44. Re:more laws by j-turkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      it is a privilege, not a right to be able to drive a car

      I disagree with your statement - specifically where you suggest that driving is a privilege. I hope that I'm not being too pedantic, but this notion is freely thrown around with very little thought, and it has always bothered me. As far as me being pedantic on a small point...this is Slashdot, after all...and besides, someone is wrong on the internet ;-)

      Driving is as much a privilege as using a public library. Driving is not limited to a privileged class, and a drivers license cannot be arbitrarily revoked (or even suspended) without some sort of due process - even if it is only administrative due process. This is especially true in many parts of America where public transportation is nearly nonexistent - as are most forms of alternative transportation. In these remote areas, suspension of licensure for operating a motor vehicle on a public right-of-way can severely impact a person's ability to make a living - or even live on a day-to-day basis. For this reason (among others), suspension or revocation of drivers licenses is not to be taken lightly. This is the same for trade licensure - I wouldn't call being an electrician a privilege either.

      Another way to look at it is that driving is no more a privilege than being free from incarceration. A person who breaks the rules risks losing their license to drive - similarly, rights to any other freedom can be taken away if societal rules are broken - e.g. sentenced to prison, where many rights are suspended. WIth this in mind, does that make living in a person's own home, or even walking on a sidewalk a privilege? I would argue that if driving is a privilege, then living where one chooses (within the law), free from incarceration is a privilege too.

      This is something that we tell 16 year old children. As a minor - driving privileges, like television privileges, can be taken away arbitrarily. The reality is that with adults they cannot.

      /pedantic

      --

      -Turkey

    45. Re:more laws by j-turkey · · Score: 2

      You need to be on your toes there - besides, parking lot accidents are paid for by YOU -- fault, in my experience is never assigned on private property or public parking lots. Tough beans, even if you were not at fault.

      ... as the laws in general do NOT apply in parking lots. He could have been driving 100 mph...

      In most states, certain laws do pertain to parking lots. The two that I can think of off the top of my head are DUI/DWI laws (which even pertain to your own driveway), and reckless driving (where a person is subject to citation/arrest for breaking contact with the pavement, loss of control, and excessive speed). In your case, a charge where a civilian witness sees a person driving 100 MPH would be difficult to substantiate, since it does not come from a person trained in speed detection (e.g. a police officer). Further, in your situation, while the officer would not criminally cite the other person, the police report should detail that they ran a stop sign, and violated right-of-way. This would make them civilly liable.

      IANAL

      --

      -Turkey

    46. Re:more laws by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      I'll take the 'drunk' who can 'sober up' immediately thank you very much.

      I'll take neither, and not make excuses for anybody, thank you very much.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    47. Re:more laws by scot4875 · · Score: 2

      If the law somehow increased the number of murders, it would be a stupid law. With murder it's hard to imaging such a law, but that's been a legitimate discussion with some of the drug laws.

      So are you insinuating that texting laws increase the amount of texting while driving? If not, then how is your analogy relevant to the discussion whatsoever?

      The worst thing we do in societies these days is outlaw stuff on the basis that it's "icky"

      Yeah, that's not what's going on here. There is quantifiable damage done (to others) by people who abuse their phones while driving. Those that choose to engage in reckless (to others) activities should have to pay for their damage. Personal responsibility and all that.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    48. Re:more laws by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Worse. You can return from the store only to find your car split in two. It's YOUR fault for being there in the first place according the insurance companies. So you have two choices.

      1. Take the hit on your premiums going up.
      or
      2. Beg and plead for a copy of the parking lot video footage showing exactly who hit you. If you're able to track down the person whom hit you (not likely), you can take them to court. Better hope they have the money to sue, otherwise you're not only out of pocket in legal fees, but also lost a day or so out of work.

      People need to be careful in parking lots. Not only for others safety, but for themselves as well. There are violent people who don't like to reason.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    49. Re:more laws by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      The sign placement you describe is done by the highway departments (at least up here in Mass.), not the police departments. I am pretty sure we're dealing with plain old incompetence (i.e., most of the signs up here are stupidly located), and not some vast conspiracy to separate upstanding motorists from their money.

      And if it really bugs you, drive to rule. When I can't tell what I'm supposed to do at an intersection (because some clown hid the sign, or simply didn't put one up), I make conservative assumptions. I'll stop till I'm sure it's safe, or slow down till I can be sure that I see all the signs. Sometimes people honk their horns, but the conservative assumption is that the horn is signalling a safety problem that I was unaware of, and if you don't know anything about the danger, best plan is to slow down, or stop, till you can tell what is wrong (that's not always the safest thing to do, but it is usually the safest thing to do, and in the absence of information, assume usual case). Everything I've just told you is totally obnoxious in practical terms, and totally by the book.

    50. Re:more laws by DeathElk · · Score: 1

      I suppose the difference between cops and everybody else is that:

      • Police cars make up a small percentage of the number of vehicles on the road.
      • Police drivers generally undergo advanced driver training which may (or may not) increase their overall driver awareness
      • Attention to in-car devices is essential (and I emphasise "essential") for them to do their job, unlike casual drivers texting and yapping
    51. Re:more laws by yurtinus · · Score: 2

      As another exemplary individual who is well above average in every respect, I certainly agree that talking isn't going to distract me either. Clearly we must rid the road of all of these simpletons who can't perform as mundane a task as talking on the phone while driving. After all, 100% of accidents are caused by other people. If only we could keep those other people off of the road you and I can relax and sip our caramel machiatos while carrying on a text conversation about the mundane simpletons who could never have our intellectual capacity.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    52. Re:more laws by shiftless · · Score: 1

      So are you insinuating that texting laws increase the amount of texting while driving? If not, then how is your analogy relevant to the discussion whatsoever?

      From a few posts back:

      Just because a behavior is bad doesn't automatically mean that a law baning it is good.

      Yeah, that's not what's going on here. There is quantifiable damage done (to others) by people who abuse their phones while driving.

      Really? And what harm have I myself done to others while using a phone and driving?

      None!

      So why should I be punished, preemptively, for not causing harm to anyone?

    53. Re:more laws by Dan541 · · Score: 2

      It's also the nature of the communication. I hate phones because people just talk crap instead of just getting to the point. On a radio people get to the point a lot quicker without waffling on endlessly.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    54. Re:more laws by forceman130 · · Score: 1

      I dont think talking is going to distract me (but i am well above average in every aspect) . And if you cant talk and drive at the same time, then your license should be taken away. that should be part of all the new driving tests. you have to call and talk to a memeber of your family for 10min while navigating the streets of San Francisco.

      Thanks. I came to this thread just to see how long it would take someone to make the claim that they were "special" and that these problems didn't apply to them. I'm glad your pretentious comment was able to satisfy my curiosity.

      Shouldn't there be a Godwin's law equivalent for that sort of self-aggrandizing statement?

      --
      Wow, a 7 digit ID - let that be a lesson in the perils of procrastination.
    55. Re:more laws by tgeek · · Score: 1

      I think if you look in most (if not all) US states you'll find their legislatures have explicitly defined driving as a "privilege" -- with no room for subjective interpretation. Until legislatures decide to redefine it as right, it's gonna be a privilege

      Now having said that, I don't disagree at all that driving is a very necessary privilege and one that a person should try to avoid losing (especially if one is in an area underserved or not served at all by public transportation). But it's still not a right.

    56. Re:more laws by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Should you not be charged with attempted murder for shooting into a crowded room and happen to miss? The fact that you didn't kill anyone makes it a significantly lesser charge than say... actually killing someone. But do we really need to wait until after you've killed someone because you were texting to say 'you shouldn't have been texting'?

      Should you be allowed to blind fold yourself when driving? Until you caused an accident it was perfectly safe right?

      You shouldn't be allowed on the road if you're going to be reckless. What meets the standard of reckless is very much up to scientific analysis and public disclosure of that knowledge. Any idiot should be able to figure out that you should not be allowed to drive while blind folded. But people don't realize they're distracted when on a cell phone. You'd think they'd realize they're distracted when texting, but people definitely don't appreciate just how distracted they are when on a hands free device 'my hands are on the wheel!' is not the same as 'my attention is on the road'.

    57. Re:more laws by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      Oh and what have you, yourself done? Risked everyone else's lives by essentially putting on a blind fold, hence the analogy. If *you* are paying attention to your phone you are paying less attention to the road, risking everyone else's lives, now, the question is how much distraction is an acceptable risk, radio, screaming children, screaming spouse, texting?

      If you aren't paying attention to the road, you shouldn't be on it. In that sense texting while driving is already covered, but then you get to my issue of 'awareness' you now have no excuse to say you weren't aware it was actually distracting you. By writing new laws about it they'd get more press and more awareness.

    58. Re:more laws by shiftless · · Score: 1

      The odds of them losing their licence is almost nil so long as they don't drive drunk.

      Really? Because I somehow managed to lose my license without driving drunk, recklessly, getting involved in any accidents, or harming anyone. My crime was offending the state's ego. It seems they take great offense to the idea that someone might be driving around out there when their license is suspended or revoked. This is such a horrible and dangerous crime, they tack on 6 months for each violation. There is no appeal, unless you can afford to a lawyer to sue the state to force them to give you one. There is no hardship license.

      If you get caught in this legal trap with no escape, and live 15 miles outside of town with no friends or family to give you free rides to work every day....then you either a) break the law or b) starve to death.

    59. Re:more laws by shiftless · · Score: 1

      While you may have a right to travel, there is no right to drive and there never will be.

      No, this is bullshit. The right to travel implies the right to drive, especially since in today's world it is *necessary* for many people to survive. You can'tt outlaw making a living. Well at least not for long, until enough plebes see through your "privilege, not a right!!! lol!" brainwashing and decide they've had enough of the tyranny.

    60. Re:more laws by shiftless · · Score: 1

      And a law would have absolutely zero effect on the problem of people driving stupid in parking lots, because traffic laws don't apply on private property.

    61. Re:more laws by Anonymus · · Score: 1

      From that quote, I can't help but feel that this entire study was funded in some way by the alcohol industry.

      The "legal limit" in most places is specifically set there because that's where you're barely impaired at all. That's why it's the legal limit. For most people in most places, the legal limit is about 1 can of beer.

      A more fair comparison would be someone at the legal limit compared to someone who stood next to someone smoking marijuana for a couple minutes. I'd like to see this study done with someone considerably over the limit; drunk, or at least tipsy.

    62. Re:more laws by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Because it takes an *awful lot* of effort for society to provide motorists their needs. Cars need a great deal of infrastructure (smooth roads that need frequent maintenance, traffic lights, high quality signage), have many externalities which the driver does not suffer (pollution, noise, the inherent danger of >1000kg of metal hurtling around). In actual fact, the whole transport system is so ridiculously tilted towards car use such that it seems normal to drive 1 mile to the shops but "dangerous" and "strange" to do the same thing on a bicycle. Car drivers also suffer very light penalties for causing death or serious injury by carelessness, and things like road rage are very leniently prosecuted compared to a comparable violent crime performed with, say, a knife or a baseball bat.

      The problem is drivers have an unreasonable expectation that the highway in the UK should belong exclusively to them. In reality, those who have a *right* to use the public highway (except for motorways) in the UK are pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders; vehicle drivers do not have the right to be on the highway, instead both the driver must be licensed AND the vehicle. However, they expect to have preference over the road users who actually have a right to be there.

    63. Re:more laws by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You are needlessly gambling with the lives of others. That means you are a selfish tool.

    64. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "room for subjective interpretation" occurs the first time someone sues because their "privilege" to drive got revoked due to a mistake they admittedly made, and now they can't get to/from work, school, the grocer, or their parole officer's, which puts severe and undue strains on their other acknowledged rights, such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If driving is a privilege, then taking away that privilege has to be very cautiously done, because it affects a lot of rights even if it's not itself a right.

    65. Re:more laws by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 1

      No, you only need to be able to reach them at or before the next exit. So the expectation you have should be: call, leave a voicemail message, and they pull off at the next exit or rest stop to park, check your message and, if the situation requires it, return the call for further instruction.

      They can't do anything between here and the next exit anyway. U-turns are illegal on most highways.

    66. Re:more laws by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 1

      Because I somehow managed to lose my license without driving drunk, recklessly, getting involved in any accidents, or harming anyone. My crime was offending the state's ego. It seems they take great offense to the idea that someone might be driving around out there when their license is suspended or revoked.

      Now tell us how you managed to lose your license. Hint: you had already lost your license if it was already suspended or revoked.

      You lost it for 6 months longer by driving after you'd lost it the first time, but you haven't told us how you lost it in the first place. I'm assuming it was for something more substantial than "offending the state's ego".

      There is no hardship license.

      And that's the real problem.

    67. Re:more laws by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      Can you show me some examples where driving is explicitly defined as a privilege? I have not been able to find it, although on a cursory search, I have found instances where individuals have sued their state and won based on the notion of a right to travel (caution: dubious validity of this article). Another counter-example: the US Constitution defines voting as a right, but certain states revoke this right for convicted felons. Does this make voting a privilege too?

      --

      -Turkey

    68. Re:more laws by overmod · · Score: 1

      Guys - it's not the phone, it's the interface. Distraction of foreground attention = death. Shifting visual focus from far to near and THEN requiring foreground attention = even more death. Problems with talking on the phone 'were' mostly associated with holding the thing to your ear and driving one-handed (and fumbling in traffic if the ridiculously-streamlined chiclet-size thing squirts out of your grasp) than talking.

      I do know firsthand of two accidents that occurred *because* a driver was reaching for the cigarette lighter. That all by itself is two too many. Let the ban involve smoking while driving, if it has to be a 'blanket' prohibition, before it involves telephone communications.

      TEXT is the more significant issue for 'smart phones': foreground attention requiring (often one-handed on tiny keyboards) manual dexterity to produce, foreground attention squinting at tiny screens and perhaps scrolling up and down to read. Very little of this problem can be fixed with ANY UI change... other than text-to-speech conversion both ways, which I very, very strongly advocate for anyone who feels they just *have* to try TMs (or, for that matter, e-mailing) while driving something.

      I could go into proper haptic interfaces for use in vehicles, but it's not really on topic in this discussion.

    69. Re:more laws by overmod · · Score: 1

      What would YOU call it when it can be revoked if you fail to pay child support, or don't document enough of the right kind of insurance coverage? Or drive away from a gas pump without paying?

      (Or, to put it in a bit more appropriate context, for things utterly unrelated to your competence at operating a vehicle safely...?)

    70. Re:more laws by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      You make a good point. I didn't realize that drivers licenses were being revoked for failure to pay child support. It seems utterly inappropriate to do so, given that most people's ability to make a living is tied to their ability to make it to work - and that it has absolutely nothing to do with driving. Insurance coverage is one of the procedural requirements for operating a motor vehicle on a public right of way (like paying taxes, inspection, emissions documentation, etc). Driving away from a gas pump without paying - I guess that's related to driving, since it involves driving. It doesn't come down to competence, as a person can be in dozens of accidents and not lose a license. Typically revocation of a drivers license has more to do with breaking the law in a car (child support notwithstanding).

      --

      -Turkey

    71. Re:more laws by IVI+V+K · · Score: 1

      So i presume that you support providing the elderly, young, blind or disabled people their "right" to drive? I doubt it.
      Why do all countries have drivers licenses if it is a right? Do any other rights require licenses?
      Is revoking someones drivers license a violation of human rights?

      This is ludicrous.

      If anything, the government massive subsidies to the car infrastructure (at the expense of non driving alternatives) is a violation of peoples rights to mobility as it mandates that you must be able to purchase a car (insurance...) and physically able to drive it to meet your right to mobility.

      Again, there is no right to drive.

    72. Re:more laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perfect world is nice and all....let me know when you find one :)

      If we can reduce something by simply better training, isn't that a worthy goal? Hell we don't even teach 'driving' anymore and only for a few months to kids hell bent on not listening to anyone.

      And we wonder why we see crazy people on the road.

  2. Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't stare at my beer or have a conversation with it. Drinking and driving is a minimal effort hobby.

    1. Re:Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't stare at my beer or have a conversation with it. Drinking and driving is a minimal effort hobby.

      Article translation: We overestimated the dangers of alcohol on driving.

    2. Re:Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go drive here, I heard it's better after a few drinks.

    3. Re:Obvious by feepness · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't stare at my beer or have a conversation with it.

      Clearly you need to start drinking better beer.

    4. Re:Obvious by Baloroth · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't stare at my beer or have a conversation with it.

      Clearly you need to start drinking better beer.

      Or just more of it.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    5. Re:Obvious by buchner.johannes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it just says

      reaction_time(smartphone-user) > reaction_time(drunken-driver)

      Society has now successfully established that reaction_time(drunken-driver) leads to more accidents (especially troublesome because you are not just injuring yourself with your stupidity, but other, innocent people are killed).

      The logical conclusion is that the danger of smartphones is large and people are not aware of it (unlike with drinking or phoning). While we are also now kindof aware that calling while driving is a bad idea, those two don't have a real stigma yet (like NZ ads "If you drink and drive --- you're a bloody idiot").

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    6. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Society has now successfully established that reaction_time(drunken-driver) leads to more accidents (especially troublesome because you are not just injuring yourself with your stupidity, but other, innocent people are killed).

      That's false. MADD proved .15 BAC lead to more accidents, then argued "lower is better" until the impairment from the legal limit is well below impairment from cell phones, radio, kids, rain on the windshield, and anything else ever measured. The conclusion should be that the current DUI levels are below measurable increase in risk.

    7. Re:Obvious by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      I think it just says

      reaction_time(smartphone-user) > reaction_time(drunken-driver)

      Society has now successfully established that reaction_time(drunken-driver) leads to more accidents (especially troublesome because you are not just injuring yourself with your stupidity, but other, innocent people are killed).

      The logical conclusion is that the danger of smartphones is large and people are not aware of it (unlike with drinking or phoning). While we are also now kindof aware that calling while driving is a bad idea, those two don't have a real stigma yet (like NZ ads "If you drink and drive --- you're a bloody idiot").

      That's ridiculous.

      Reaction_time needs to be a function of the object, not a global function. Oh god, don't tell me this study wasn't object oriented...

    8. Re:Obvious by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

      I was thinking along the same lines.

      Every time I hear about some activity impairing more than being legally intoxicated (driving with 1 hour sleep deprivation, driving with crying babies, driving while talking on a mobile, etc) I always wonder whether that says more about the activity, or the limits of what is considered legally impaired.

      Or another way of looking at it, obviously alcohol impaired drivers need to drink more!

    9. Re:Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reaction time for what? Of course if the smartphone driver heard squeeling brakes or saw sudden movement in the top of their vision they'd be more likely to look up than someone that was totally blitzed, but the big issue is that they're not likely to see it. I've seen a ton of cases where people haven't even looked up until they're practically sitting in the back seat of the car in front of them because nothing ever caught their attention to alert them that traffic had stopped ahead of them...because they were looking down at their damn phones. Or reading a book. Or eating a bowl of cereal. Or doing their make up. Or beating their kids.

      It's a game of probabilities. You might be able to text all your best friends every day on your day home from work, but eventually, something unexpected will happen and you'll hit that load full of cinder blocks that fell off someone's truck, or you'll run over that police officer that has someone pulled over on a narrow shoulder, or you'll plow into a construction zone.

    10. Re:Obvious by Artraze · · Score: 1

      > Society has now successfully established that reaction_time(drunken-driver) leads to more
      > accidents (especially troublesome because you are not just injuring yourself with your stupidity,
      > but other, innocent people are killed).

      In addition to what was posted just above by AK Marc regarding .15BAC, this is not really true. While slower reaction times do cause a slight increase in accidents, it's rather insignificant. The need to react to unexpected stimuli is actually pretty uncommon in driving, and can not come up at all in many trips. Severe accidents are instead caused by lack of attention or simply bad judgement. For example, you won't run a stop light because of a bad RT (since you have >=3s of warning with a yellow), but you will if you aren't paying attention.

      In short, looking a reaction times is incredibly misleading.

    11. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The "real solution" is one nobody wants. An in-car monitoring system of breathing, heart rate, eye movement, and driving behavior that can set minimum standards for sober driving (get the incompetent grannies off the road) as well as measure actual impairment (slower and less frequent eye movement, delayed and exaggerated corrections). But who would put such a monitoring system in their car? Only TomTom or whatever would want such a system, so they can make them for a good profit. Well, and a few reasonable people like myself who would like to be warned when we are tired enough that it's affecting our driving.

    12. Re:Obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't stare at my beer or have a conversation with it. Drinking and driving is a minimal effort hobby

      Following that vein.

      Some of my fonder memories are of drinking and driving.

      I lived in San Jose California for a few years when I was younger and group of us raced everywhere; it's how we spent our evenings,
      My Karmann Ghia against or with an Austin Healey, fairly matched on the roads we drove.

      Playing car tag in Palo Alto, racing up the mountain to Castle Rock State Park, or down highway 101.
      Just good times and lots of beer was always involved.

      Never had an accident or traffic ticket, I didn't have even have a valid drivers license
      (out of state and expired) even though it was a problem as I looked 15.

      FWIW I don't drink any more and yes drinking and driving does kill, and almost always the other people.

    13. Re:Obvious by jdgeorge · · Score: 3, Informative

      Let's try some actual references with, you know, facts, and stuff.

      Instead of just making stuff up.

    14. Re:Obvious by buchner.johannes · · Score: 2

      Well if your "reasoning, depth perception and peripheral vision" are impaired at .06 BAC [src], things arguably relevant to driving, it makes sense to put the limit somewhere around .05 BAC.
      Then if you double the risk of accidents at 0.05 BAC, and triple it at 0.1 BAC, with 0 BAC as a control ... what more argument do you need to put it the DUI levels where they are now? [src]

      DUI is not exactly a new phenomenon that doesn't have enough studies yet.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    15. Re:Obvious by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, it's a method of the population.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    16. Re:Obvious by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      So the real answer to smart phone use is bluetooth enabled adaptive cruise control, that when the proximity alarms go off sends a message to the cell phone "ALERT!!! YOU ARE ABOUT TO CRASH AND BURN YOU SHITHEAD!"

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    17. Re:Obvious by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 1

      Then if you double the risk of accidents at 0.05 BAC, and triple it at 0.1 BAC, with 0 BAC as a control ... what more argument do you need to put it the DUI levels where they are now? [src]

      I actually bothered to look up that source - and I don't mean the graph on Wikipedia. It looks like this.

      Basically (after finding a very slight correlation between drivers who had been drinking and drivers who were speeding - although the correlation was only a few km/h): they tried to take drivers who were both drunk and speeding, and then statistically explain how much of their risk was due to speeding, and how much was due to the alcohol, based on the accident rates of non-intoxicated people who were also speeding.

      IMHO it's not a very convincing study. There were too many variables and it's not at all obvious to me that their assumption was valid. The effects of speeding and alcohol together may be cumlatively worse than the combined total of the two.

    18. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      DUI is not exactly a new phenomenon that doesn't have enough studies yet.

      There are almost no studies on DUI. The US federal government defines "alcohol related" (the stat used for almost all studies of real-world fatalities taken from US numbers) as including crashes where uninvolved passengers are drunk, even if the driver was not. So, if you are the designated driver and you stop at a red light, and the elderly near-blind driver behind you falls asleep and rams you, killing you, them, and your passenger, then that is 3 fatalities caused by alcohol.

      With methodology like that, there's no wonder every crash in the US is caused by alcohol, inflating and confusing all "risk" numbers.

    19. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've seen studies that I wished I'd copied because they were later (mostly successfully) disappeared by the US govt.

      There was a study done to show drugs were as bad or worse than drinking. The "conclusion" was that stoned drivers were safer than sober ones. So the government buried the study they commissioned.

      I've read the "facts and stuff" for 20+ years and have come to the conclusion that the government will lie about risk to further the agenda of "important" supporters, and nobody likes a mad MADD.

    20. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The other thing I've never seen studied is sleeping while driving. Most alcohol crashes happen late at night. Alcohol acts as a depressant. So it'll increase your chances of falling asleep. But the studies are all done at noon in the sun, so not applicable to the most common alcohol crashes. Perhaps alcohol doubles you chances of inadvertently falling asleep, but the other effects have no direct effect on crash risk. But nobody will ever study that. It's not what the government or MADD wants to hear, so there'll be no funding for that study.

      I wish someone looked at and measured "accpetable risk" and then tried to find the alcohol level that met that, and kids, radio, phones, ect could be applied to that standard. Instead, we have the moving standard of .08, I mean .05 that we measure things against and realize that we are intellectually inconsistent.

    21. Re:Obvious by N0Man74 · · Score: 1

      I don't think that is the only "real solution".

      Why can't an effort to create reliable and safe self-driving cars be the "real solution"? I think in theory, not only could this increase safety, but it could also be implemented in ways that it could help overall congestion and efficiency.

      Or why can't the "real solution" (to the texting/phone distraction problem) be to develop better interfaces to these gadgets in order to reduce the amount of interaction that is required to use them? Devices that are hands-free, voice activated, and give audio feedback could potentially be less distracting.

      Those are off the top of my head, I imagine there are other approaches as well.

    22. Re:Obvious by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      Self driving cars would only improve safety and travel conditions sufficiently to justify their adoption if they communicated their trips, in real time, back to a central server. Otherwise, we'd be paying trillions to move from one CPU to another CPU when the bottleneck is the RAM and GPU.

      Or why can't the "real solution" (to the texting/phone distraction problem) be to develop better interfaces to these gadgets in order to reduce the amount of interaction that is required to use them? Devices that are hands-free, voice activated, and give audio feedback could potentially be less distracting.

      Because in real tests on this, they found it doesn't matter. It's not the interaction with the device that causes any issue, it's the cause for the interaction with the device that does.

      Those are off the top of my head, I imagine there are other approaches as well.

      I'm sure there are. But, in 30+ years of following the topic, I've never seen any solution for an inattentive driver that even came close to a camera monitoring eye movements. And you've suggested nothing that reduces that problem.

    23. Re:Obvious by mjwx · · Score: 1

      I think it just says

      reaction_time(smartphone-user) > reaction_time(drunken-driver)

      drunken-driver = watching the road.
      phone-user = watching the phone.

      Here's why reaction time doesn't matter, a person texting is oblivious to the world around them. They dont notice a change in conditions, a car cutting them of, drifting out of their lane. Being able to react faster doesn't matter as they have put themselves into a situation where they wont notice a danger until it's too late. A drunk driver is far more likely to notice danger, just not capable of reacting properly to it.

      People barely notice other drivers when their full attention is on the road let alone when they're distracted.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    24. Re:Obvious by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      I would absolutely love having such a system if it were paid for by me, ostensibly on my side. It could warn me if I was driving badly due to whatever reason, such as mildly buzzed, emotional state, fatigue, distraction. I can see this preventing many close calls and accidents.

      If it were the informant of the DMV, my insurance, or the local fuzz and had the ability to disable my vehicle or issue citations then I would be very much against it. Such a system would be very tempting to these agencies and I would have to trust the system completely. I'm thinking it would have to be open source and have a way for me to avoid any incriminating evidence being stored.

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  3. For you guys, maybe by SoupGuru · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can text, check my Facebook, AND drive with no problems. I think I'm one of only about 20 world-wide that can do it.

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    1. Re:For you guys, maybe by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      That's what all of these idiots think.

      I'm guessing that was his point.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:For you guys, maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the joke.

    3. Re:For you guys, maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .jpg

    4. Re:For you guys, maybe by 19thNervousBreakdown · · Score: 4, Funny

      I drive better when I'm texting.

      --
      <xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
    5. Re:For you guys, maybe by maxwell+demon · · Score: 4, Funny

      I can text, check my Facebook, AND drive with no problems. I think I'm one of only about 20 world-wide that can do it.

      I only can do that if I'm drunk.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    6. Re:For you guys, maybe by johnb10001 · · Score: 1

      I was walking and testing and you just hit me.

    7. Re:For you guys, maybe by Cabriel · · Score: 5, Funny

      One of 19 people, now. Devon, the one in South Carolina, got into an accident and died last month, so you're down by one, now.

    8. Re:For you guys, maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an emergency / police vehicle driver, so such laws of nature and man do not apply to my reaction time. We have special training and stickers for our vehicles that no civilian could match.

    9. Re:For you guys, maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jokingly, sure. But Facebook may be going too far. Can you text on average every 90 seconds while driving 88mph on the highway at night? Apparently some people were capable of doing that, but even they said "Driving and facebooking is not safe!"

      The past tense in the last sentence is not accidental.

    10. Re:For you guys, maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I heard. He was killed by a drunk driver.

    11. Re:For you guys, maybe by N8w8 · · Score: 1

      What a coincidence, so am I!
      In fact, I'm posting this while driving as we sp&*$@%*$#NO CARRIER
      [....]
      This must be my lucky day! I was just posting to /. but lost my connection. After a sigh, and a swear at my telco, I took a long overdue peek at the road. And found myself speeding towards a brick wall, which I managed to avoid just in time!
      Thank you, oh precious NO CARRIER meme, for saving my life once ag&*$@%*$#NO CARRIER
      [...]
      [...]

    12. Re:For you guys, maybe by formfeed · · Score: 1

      I can text, check my Facebook, AND drive with no problems. I think I'm one of only about 20 world-wide that can do it.

      I only can do that if I'm drunk.

      Me too. But I only drink when driving across state borders while refilling propane cylinders.

    13. Re:For you guys, maybe by DeathElk · · Score: 1

      Dude, put... down... the keyboard...

  4. This study is from the UK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    All driving is more dangerous in the UK, because they insist on driving on the wrong side of the road.

    1. Re:This study is from the UK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, a little historical urban myth said that we drive on that side because it allowed our horseman in ye olde times the opportunity to skewer the frenchies with our sword in the right hand. Of course they buggered it up by driving on the 'wrong' side?

    2. Re:This study is from the UK. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      the first time I visited the UK (I'm from the US) some friends there asked how I was doing, dealing with the 'opposite side' driving problem. I said it would be no problem, I would just go to one of your nice pubs, have a few and then, I'd just naturally drive on the wrong side of the road. which, in this case, would be the correct side.

      they didn't think it was funny.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:This study is from the UK. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the first time I visited the UK (I'm from the US) some friends there asked how I was doing, dealing with the 'opposite side' driving problem. I said it would be no problem, I would just go to one of your nice pubs, have a few and then, I'd just naturally drive on the wrong side of the road. which, in this case, would be the correct side.

      they didn't think it was funny.

      Of COURSE that's not funny!

      We call them "bars" here.

      And people say WE'RE the backwards, culturally insensitive clods!

    4. Re:This study is from the UK. by digitig · · Score: 1

      We drive on the opposite side to oncoming traffic. I'm sure that's safest. Which side do you drive on?

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    5. Re:This study is from the UK. by sjames · · Score: 2

      We just drive wherever the hell we want and let the market decide.

    6. Re:This study is from the UK. by digitig · · Score: 1

      But wouldn't that lead to Darwinian selection? Is that permitted in your State?

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    7. Re:This study is from the UK. by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's OK as long as you call it "letting God decide".

    8. Re:This study is from the UK. by readin · · Score: 1

      I nearly got killed in Hong Kong because of that driving on the left business, but it wasn't what you would think.

      I went to Hong Kong for just 3 days 2 nights with no plans to do any driving. As such I didn't think at all about the which side of the street you drive on in Hong Kong.

      But the very first day I was there, I planning to cross an intersection so I checked my left and started walking. As a friend yanked me back onto the sidewalk a car came speeding around the corner from the right. Dude saved my life.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  5. I wonder what cops think about the study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    Every cop in US has been using their cell phones and laptops while driving and it has not been an issue at all.

    1. Re:I wonder what cops think about the study? by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      It absolutely HAS been an issue, with many lawsuits related to it, and many people injured by cops texting, using their laptop, speeding -- without their sirens on.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    2. Re:I wonder what cops think about the study? by clyde_cadiddlehopper · · Score: 4, Informative

      Really? The headline reads "Trooper was on laptop moments before crash"

      --
      Obi-Wan: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were sudden
  6. And? by x1r8a3k · · Score: 1

    Isn't using your phone in any fashion without a hands-free kit already illegal in the UK? If you must, enforce it.

    Education does nothing. Young kids don't really care if what they do is dangerous, in fact, thats often why they do it.

    1. Re:And? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      Isn't using your phone in any fashion without a hands-free kit already illegal in the UK?

      It amazes me that so many people seem to believe the proximity of one's hand to one's ear is the problem when it comes to making phone calls while driving.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    2. Re:And? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, this sort of behaviour is already against the law. It isn't widely enforced, though, and way too many people still do it. It needs to become socially unacceptable, the same way drunk driving now is.

      As an aside, driving while using a hands-free kit is hardly any safer. It's just harder to detect and penalise. Unfortunately, that means the government here in the UK didn't outlaw it at the same time, thus sending a clear (but completely wrong) message that "The government says driving using a hands-free kit is safe!". Of course, lots of companies who sell hands-free kits had huge displayboards in stores the day these laws came in playing off that misunderstanding, and to this day a lot of people think they're safe driving and talking as long as they've got hands-free.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    3. Re:And? by x1r8a3k · · Score: 1

      When driving a manual, like the majority of UK cars are, it is.
      Also the scary 37% slower figure comes from texting and social networking while driving.

    4. Re:And? by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Funny

      If God didn't want us driving a manual transmission car whilst texting on a smartphone he wouldn't have given us knees.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    5. Re:And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But thats where I hold my beer!

    6. Re:And? by lgw · · Score: 1

      It's certainly a big part of the problem. Engaging your ears is one thing, but adding hands and eyes makes it a far bigger problem. People listen to the raido, chat with passengers, and so on without it being a major crisis, but texting is vastly more dangerous than listening to something interesting.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ok, i get that people say you are right, but how is it any worse than having a passenger? Do we outlaw more than one seat in a car? A kid in the back seat must surely be worse. I get it, let’s not drive anymore. If you can't drive, you can't drive. Laws won't make people obey, or be safe.

    8. Re:And? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      It amazes me that so many people seem to believe the proximity of one's hand to one's ear is the problem when it comes to making phone calls while driving.

      If anything, it is part of the solution, not the problem. With hands-full phones at least other drivers have a chance of seeing your hand by your head and realizing you are impaired. These laws that mandate hands-free phones just increase the risk, not reduce it.

      Similar problem with outlawing texting while driving - it just makes dumbasses keep their phones below the line-of-sight of other cars so they won't get caught. But doing that also means that looking at the phone takes even more time away from looking at the road.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    9. Re:And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, this one's ripe for reductio.

      All crimes should be legalised because then you'll do them out in the open and can be dealt with.

    10. Re:And? by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Generally the problems seems to be driving ability is store in the penis so those without one are very dangerous to the rest of us.

    11. Re:And? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      People listen to the raido, chat with passengers, and so on without it being a major crisis

      There's something about talking on the phone that gives people temporary ADD. Walk towards three people holding a conversation on a sidewalk and they'll see you. But have one guy yammering on a phone and he'll walk right into you if you don't get out of the moron's way.

      Everyone has seen this, what I can't understand is they (you) can't see the consequences of it.

    12. Re:And? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I find that the safety of hands free is a direct function of the efficiency of your voice recognition software.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    13. Re:And? by formfeed · · Score: 1

      Isn't using your phone in any fashion without a hands-free kit already illegal in the UK?

      It amazes me that so many people seem to believe the proximity of one's hand to one's ear is the problem when it comes to making phone calls while driving.

      Not on a highway. But in town where you have to turn.

      Right turn shoulder check for bicyclists? Nope. Just eye movement while one hand holds the head in place. Recently I almost got hit at a crosswalk by someone turning left, because he couldn't move his head into the direction the wheels where going.

      I don't know whether this is a general risk or whether it just makes morons drive even worse, but there are enough people who drive around like they got a neck collar. I'd rather encounter one of these drunks that become extra cautious, than these idiots who act like their car is their living room and the outside is a TV screen with a semi-interesting plot.

    14. Re:And? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Well, this one's ripe for reductio.

      All crimes should be legalised because then you'll do them out in the open and can be dealt with.

      Only for binary dullards like yourself. Your response is seriously non-constructive. How about proposing a solution like voice recognition and readback texting when moving faster than 5 mph unless there is a bluetooth or wifi signal indicating that someone is sitting in a passenger seat in the vehicle? The idea is to use technology to fix the actual problem (the desire to communicate while driving) rather than laws to fight human nature because fighting human nature is always a losing battle - just like requiring complicated passwords just makes people write them on post-it notes stuck to their monitor. But using technology to help people accomplish what they want to do in a safe fashion is better for everyone.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    15. Re:And? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      It's worse because a passenger is there with you and most passengers will naturally react to the surroundings and the driver's temperament, including knowing when to shut up and let the driver concentrate.

      Misbehaving kids in the back can be a real problem, but it is impractical to ban all driving with kids on board and most of the time most kids aren't severely degrading the driver's performance. That is rather different to the situation where almost no-one actually needs to make a call while driving, and most of the time most calls will severely degrade the driver's performance.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    16. Re:And? by nukenerd · · Score: 1

      You don't seem to know what he meant by "reductio"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

      He is on the same side as yourself.

    17. Re:And? by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I'm aware of the absurdum version.
      It just didn't seem at all his intent given the context.
      Perhaps high irony is lost on me.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    18. Re:And? by Dan541 · · Score: 1

      It's how I steer the car, with hotdog in one hand, beer in the other.

      --
      An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
    19. Re:And? by overmod · · Score: 1

      No, the proximity of hand to ear is one of the issues after the call is made and you're talking.

      The lion's share of the problems involve dialling while looking at the phone, texting while looking at the phone, fumbling with the interface and buttons to get to the phone function in the first place. Gets worse on smartphones where you have visual media, games, etc that HOLD your foreground attention on some little bright screen up close, or distract your attention at what turns out to be a 'wrong moment'.

      Look at all the previous posts that reference 'looking DOWN at the . It's looking, not talking, that's the root of most of these problems. (I'm staying out of the discussions that show it's better and safer to keep both hands on the wheel, let alone what you do with stick or paddles...)

    20. Re:And? by robsku · · Score: 1

      I have ADHD and yet I've never ever had any this sort of problems - guess it's something to do with not being able to walk and chew gum at same time...

      --
      In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
    21. Re:And? by swalve · · Score: 1

      Why were you passing someone on the left when they were trying to turn? Either they were in the wrong lane, or you were.

    22. Re:And? by formfeed · · Score: 1

      Why were you passing someone on the left when they were trying to turn? Either they were in the wrong lane, or you were.

      I "passed on the left" because I was walking on the sidewalk on the other side of the road and as I crossed a side street someone going in the same direction turned left into that side street. He held his head in position with a cell phone on his ear, looked at the oncoming traffic but never at the road he was turning into.

    23. Re:And? by swalve · · Score: 1

      My bad. Thought you were on a bicycle.

  7. More dangerous when driving? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Easy solution -- don't smartphones drive.

    Until they get a bit smarter, at least...

    1. Re:More dangerous when driving? by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      Easy solution -- don't smartphones drive.

      Until they get a bit smarter, at least...

      I'd rather have the phone be driving than most people on the road, to be honest.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
  8. I believe it, but it is a choice as well by jesseck · · Score: 1

    While what happened in this story is tragic, she knew the consequences. I don't agree with the parent's response of lobbying for new laws, either- theft is illegal, but that doesn't mean people don't steal.

    1. Re:I believe it, but it is a choice as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Driving at 80 mph while doing Facebook updates? That's natural selection at work there. No reasonable law could have kept her alive long enough to spit out a few, yet perhaps education could have bought her enough time to reproduce before electrocuting herself by using a hair dryer while sitting in the bath.

      I see fuckers here chatting on phones, running red lights and generally driving like cunts. Existing law needs to be enforced, and driving while smoking or chatting on a phone should become as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

    2. Re:I believe it, but it is a choice as well by Hatta · · Score: 1

      That story is just natural selection in action. It's only tragic when natural selection is averted. e.g., if the texter survives and procreates, or the texter takes the life of a non-texter.

      I know in alcohol related crashes, the drunk is less likely to die than their victims are. What's the statistics on texting crashes?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:I believe it, but it is a choice as well by robus · · Score: 2

      And if you're a dead victim of their "choice"?

      Laws can be a way for society to set clear limits on acceptable behavior. Currently people aren't seriously considering the risks they're taking with others safety. That has to change - soon.

    4. Re:I believe it, but it is a choice as well by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      One of the factors in that statistic is that a large. Number of DUI accidents are with pedestrians. Generally pedestrians fare worse that driver in auto accidents. I would expect cell phone while driving accidents to be similar in that they are more likely to happen in day light hours where more pedestrians are likely to be about. That's is educated guessing though.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    5. Re:I believe it, but it is a choice as well by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's more or the 'there outta be a law!" syndrome. It's unfortunate that she died, but really, she was smart enough to know what was what and to have heard any one of the bazillion messages about not texting and driving. If the threat of death wasn't enough to keep her from doing it, what makes them think the threat of a ticket would have helped.

  9. Siri by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 4, Funny

    Siri, how close is the nearest hospital? Is it too far to walk there with one leg broken from a car accident?

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:Siri by Tapewolf · · Score: 1

      Siri, how close is the nearest hospital? Is it too far to walk there with one leg broken from a car accident?

      Sorry. I can only look for businesses inside the United States, and when you're using U.S. English. Glory to the Flesh. Glory to the Mass.

    2. Re:Siri by houghi · · Score: 1

      Not too far, but you will be arrested for jaywalking.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  10. continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by ath0mic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does this risk change if you consider a sufficiently long period of time? Presumably for a given trip you spend more time intoxicated than you do checking or responding to a message on your phone.

    1. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by characterZer0 · · Score: 1

      That does not do any good if you do not notice the environment is risky until it is too late.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    2. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      While driving, a non-risky environment can change into a risky environment in a much shorter time than it takes to read a text.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unfortunately, as the accident stats clearly show, the theoretical ability to just drop your phone or whatever it is you image people doing when they "enter a risky environment" is rarely observed in practice. Presumably this is because while distracted by a conversation on the phone, drivers are significantly less accurate in judging risk in the first place.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    4. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by trongey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      +1.

      You can stop using your phone if you enter a risky environment. You can't stop being drunk.

      -1
      You can stop, but I never see anybody do it. Just like drunks who don't just pull off the road and sleep it off.

      --
      You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
    5. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The entire scheme of allowing people with minimal training to drive a vehicle constitutes a risky environment. Seriously. People driving mini forklifts at 10 km/h in a warehouse get more training (and usually mandatory drug tests) than people that are allowed to drive 1000 kg vehicles at 100 km/h in an unconstrained environment. Where is the sense in that?

      Oh, and the people operating the slow mini forklifts are not allowed to use cellphones, stereos, DVD players, etc. when they are moving. There is a good reason for that.

    6. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Great question, IMO ... and I think the answer is, it's only an instantaneous distraction using a cellphone to text. It'd be rather pointless to run one of these studies where you asked a person to just drive with a smartphone sitting next to them in a cupholder, right?

      What bothers me the most are summaries like the one in this topic, stating "more work needs to be done by the government" to help solve this issue.

      You know what? Government is NOT always your "go to" group for all the answers. In fact, it often creates more problems than it solves!

      Better technology IS a probable useful solution, however. Eliminate the need to look at the phone display to see when a text messages comes in, and make a good speech recognition system for responding hands-free. Nobody I know would actually prefer to try to juggle keying in a text reply while driving a vehicle to simply speaking a verbal reply.

      Right now, this is one of my pet peeves with Apple's iPhone. Despite being practically the most popular smartphone in use, Apple doesn't even allow developers access to the APIs they'd need to build their own SMS to speech / speech to SMS add-on. And Siri? That's not even an option for all the iPhone 3GS or 4 owners out there. Even with a new 4s, it's not ideal. Yes, you can tell Siri to compose an SMS for you or read one to you that came in, but so far, you can't just order it to run in an "automatic" mode where it speaks all of them as they come in without user intervention. And on many bluetooth implementations in vehicles, Siri doesn't even work properly because they weren't designed expecting such a thing to exist in a phone. (EG. In my 2011 GM car, hands-free bluetooth is built into the factory stereo - but here's what happens with Siri: I activate it and the car realizes it should do a hands-free connection. I hear Siri speak through my car stereo. I give it a command. Siri starts to reply and my car breaks the bluetooth connection so I don't hear its response. Only way it functions is when issuing commands to Siri that don't require verbal responses, such as an order to dial a certain phone number for me.)

    7. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're significantly more likely to get arrested if you do so compared to finishing the drive home. It's an extremely poor personal decision to pull over and sleep it off if you value your freedom.

      Assuming you're slightly over legally drunk, not shitfaced plowing-through-streetlights drunk.

    8. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, as the accident stats clearly show, the theoretical ability to just drop your phone or whatever it is you image people doing when they "enter a risky environment" is rarely observed in practice.

      No, all this proves is that some people overestimate their ability to multitask and use a cell phone irresponsibly, while driving. There is little danger in answering a text message while stopped at a long red light. Plenty of people do know enough to "hang up and drive" when the weather gets nasty or the traffic becomes challenging.

      You can't stop being drunk when approaching a school zone or when a torrential downpour suddenly starts. You can and should put your phone down. The shame of it is, all the stupid people who don't know better are ruining it for those of us who do.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    9. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, if your reaction time is impaired because you're using the phone, you'll take longer to recognize that you've just entered a "risky environment".

      Does a non-risky environment even exist on public roads? Maybe in a driveway or a closed track, I suppose.

    10. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 1

      Does this risk change if you consider a sufficiently long period of time? Presumably for a given trip you spend more time intoxicated than you do checking or responding to a message on your phone.

      +1.

      You can stop using your phone after you kill a family of six. You can't stop being drunk.

      FTFY

    11. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, some people may only drive intoxicated in the evening on weekends during 'party' hours, while they are texting while driving every day at all times of the day.

    12. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I totaled my truck 3 weeks ago because I pocket dialed someone and looked at my phone for "too long" to see what its' fuss was about. In a curve, looked up and was too late, hit a ditch almost head on at 35mph. Not a block away from home too.

    13. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by hacksoncode · · Score: 1
      Instead of anecdotal evidence, how about if one of these studies actually studies the problem in situ to *see* if people behave differently between drinking and texting/calling/talking to a passenger while driving?

      Until then, it's pretty much meaningless noise.

      It's pretty easy to disprove this hypothesis, though. If you look at the causes of fatal accidents, you'd find that it's quite rare for an accident to be linked to texting or calling, *relative* to being related to drinking.

      If we see 10,000 deaths per year attributable to texting/calling *then* we can say that these activities are "just as dangerous". Until then, it's little more than speculation and hyperbole.

      But speaking of anecdotal evidence, I see a *lot* more people driving while calling than driving while drunk (to the degree necessary to show an evident impairment in both cases, just to compare apples to apples). Yet alcohol related injuries and deaths are far more common.

      Something doesn't add up. I don't know what it is, but it doesn't add up.

    14. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They do, see the study "Text Messaging During Simulated Driving" here: http://www.psych.utah.edu/lab/appliedcognition/publications/texting.pdf

    15. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The shame of it is, all the stupid people who don't know better are ruining it for those of us who do.

      You might think you do. You might well be incorrect.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    16. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by yoblin · · Score: 1

      it also doesn't factor in the increased risk taking of the drunk driver. Reaction times are only half the story; most people texting don't also see how fast they can take a turn in their Toyota Corolla at the same time..

    17. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      You might think you do. You might well be incorrect.

      Allow me to restate that. People who think they can talk or God forbid, text, on their phone regardless of traffic conditions, in rain or shine are ruining it for those of us who actually eliminate the distraction and put the phone away when driving conditions are less than ideal. I'm not talking about people who believe themselves to be such gifted drivers they can brew espresso, play Angry Birds and navigate a roundabout, all while driving in a blizzard.

      Many vehicles include a cruise control feature, which will quite effectively plow you right into whatever happens to be in front of your car if used during inappropriate traffic and environmental conditions. There really doesn't seem to be much outcry against this feature, which both requires you to pay extra attention to what's going on around you and can only be safely used during clear weather with very light traffic.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    18. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by dlsmith · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, as the accident stats clearly show, the theoretical ability to just drop your phone or whatever it is you image people doing when they "enter a risky environment" is rarely observed in practice.

      What accident stats? Not saying they don't exist, but the article definitely doesn't provide them. The researchers demonstrated that someone texting as they drive has a slower reaction time than someone who is legally drunk while driving. This became the headline "Using A Smartphone While Driving More Dangerous Than Alcohol." My point is that there's a pretty big gap between "this activity results in a slower reaction time" and "participating in this activity is more likely to get you in an accident." (My point is not to claim that texting-while-driving is "safe"; just trying to push back against hyperbole.)

      The kind of statistic that would be necessary, to make a claim like the headline, is one that shows that the chances of getting in an accident on a trip that involves texting are greater than the chances on a trip that involves being drunk. I don't know any stats, but my guess is that a lot more people send texts while in the driver's seat than drive drunk, yet there's not a similar gap between numbers of texting-related accidents and drunk-driving accidents. But maybe I'm wrong.

    19. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by dlsmith · · Score: 1

      You can stop, but I never see anybody do it.

      You've never seen a driver glance at their phone and then put it down? You've never seen a driver fiddle with a map while sitting at a red light, but stop when the light turns green? I think this happens all the time. If half a second of interaction with a phone is as dangerous as a whole trip being drunk, it seems like we'd all be dead by now.

      (Yes, I know half a second is all it takes. I'm not saying such risks are "safe." Just saying that playing Russian Roulette once with six chambers is a lot less dangerous than playing it 100 times in a row with eight chambers.)

    20. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      Perhaps there is a level of intoxication that is unsafe and detectable post-crash, yet not apparent in "ordinary driving". Could be that there's lots more drunk drivers than you think.

      Being drunk also has the property that (as noted above) you cannot stop being drunk. People may not be smart enough to put the phone down entering a risky situation, but they may be smart enough to put the phone down (and lie about its use) AFTER the crash.

      On the other hand, given the number of people I see on the phone, you'd expect an uptick in the overall accident rate if it were significantly dangerous in real driving.

    21. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this risk change if you consider a sufficiently long period of time?

      Presumably for a given trip you spend more time intoxicated than you do checking or responding to a message on your phone.

      +1.

      You can stop using your phone if you enter a risky environment. You can't stop being drunk.

      Well, if you really think that:

      YOU can't stop being an arrogant idiot.

    22. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    23. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the answer is to train drivers to ignore distractions while driving, not to ban any possible distraction. The driver is at fault if they feel compelled to look down to read a text or answer the phone while in a risky situation that requires their eyes, just as they would be if they focused on the radio when a song comes on they don't like (or do). There should be no excuse for bad drivers, but we keep trying to tell ourselves its not their fault it is something else to blame. Everywhere I know of has laws about poor driving, but all we ever see are people pulled over for speeding. This is the same thing - you have cellphone, here's your fine. While truly dangerous or incapable drivers get a pass on their poor skills/behavior because it is harder to catch. You feel safer, they get a revenue stream, but nothing changes.

      No matter what you ban, there will always be something else to distract poor drivers who are easily distracted. These drivers need to know they are easily distracted and learn to cope, not force bans on the rest of us. I am perfectly capable of answering a call on my cellphone while driving- I have dropped the phone out of necessity when a situation arises that requires or may require both hands and my full attention (prior to laws against it of course).
      Reading a text is or should be no problem as long as you still have some attention to the road, same as some are capable of looking at a map or GPS. It can and should be the same as looking at a mirror or performing a shoulder check - your focus is still off what is occurring in front of you, yet driver training teaches and all road tests require you to do this. Why? Because you should still have some field of vision on the road in front of you, or have been trained not to do it in a situation where a pedestrian or a pole might jump out in front of you.

    24. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason people DON'T stop is because if they take the responsible action they're punished by it the second a police cruiser sees your parked vehicle on the side of the road. Being intoxicated inside the vehicle sleeping is charged exactly the same as if you were operating it.

      It's incredibly stupid, but that is the law. At least here in the US....

    25. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by swalve · · Score: 1

      I think the effect here is that the below average drivers know that THEY are distracted by their cell phones, and, believing they are above average, assume that everyone must be just as distracted or worse. When the reality is that there is a huge variability among different drivers (and at different times) with regards to how distracted they will be. By any shiny object. The lesson isn't to start outlawing everything, but to remind people not to get distracted by anything.

    26. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I think the effect here is that the below average drivers know that THEY are distracted by their cell phones, and, believing they are above average, assume that everyone must be just as distracted or worse.

      Of course you are entitled to your personal opinion. What you cannot do, however, is change the facts.

      Research has been done, under controlled conditions, on populations greater than one subject. Over many experiments, conducted by many research teams, in many different places and exploring many different factors, it turns out that the impact of adverse factors on people's actual, measured performance doesn't really vary by that much in most cases. However, the impact that people think such factors will have on their performance does vary greatly.

      So, yes, it is possible that you personally are an outlier. However, it is far more likely that you are simply in denial and over-estimating your own ability. Even if you really are that good, you might like to consider the probability of everyone driving nearby cars that could cause an accident involving you also being that good.

      The lesson isn't to start outlawing everything

      We're not talking about outlawing everything. We're talking about outlawing a practice that is very rarely actually necessary, and which has been shown time and again to dramatically increase the risk of having an accident and the severity of any accident that does happen.

      but to remind people not to get distracted by anything.

      Unfortunately, people are not machines, and merely telling them not to get distracted by anything will not achieve anything useful. Avoiding the problem by stopping people getting into a situation that is likely to distract them will, though.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    27. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by swalve · · Score: 1

      Drivers are already responsible for not getting distracted, by law. So another law telling them not to get distracted by a specific thing isn't going to do jack squat.

      Food for thought: many of the laws exempt police officers from the law. If it is in fact more or less equally dangerous for everyone, why are police exempted? The only conclusion is that we don't care if police officers are getting distracted, or maybe, just maybe, not everyone really is prone to distraction by using a cellphone.

    28. Re:continuous vs instantaneous distraction? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      So another law telling them not to get distracted by a specific thing isn't going to do jack squat.

      It's not telling them not to get distracted. It's telling them not to use a phone. It's a very clear, very unambiguous requirement, and those violating it can be objectively penalised.

      If it is in fact more or less equally dangerous for everyone, why are police exempted? The only conclusion is that we don't care if police officers are getting distracted, or maybe, just maybe, not everyone really is prone to distraction by using a cellphone.

      There have been tragic consequences to police officers being distracted while using their phones/radios and driving. Sadly, they are not immune at all to the negative effects. The better trained ones may be starting from a higher standard than the average driver, but they are still impaired to well below their usual standard while on the radio.

      The difference, and the reason that most countries tolerate members of the emergency services using the radio while driving even if others are prohibited from doing so, is that in an emergency situation there is an upside to allowing them to use radios on the move that may save more lives than it costs.

      Also, in case you didn't know, it's common practice in some countries for traffic police officers to work in pairs with the non-driving officer doing all the radio work/commentary for precisely this reason.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  11. !prove by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... which prove that ...

    ... which demonstrate that ...

  12. Deja Vu? by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 1

    Hasn't Mythbusters already covered this? Hasn't "common sense" already covered this? And what in the world is an "Advanced Motorist?"
    Stop the planet, I want to disembark, thanks!

    --
    Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
    1. Re:Deja Vu? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm on the ride and I want to get off,
      but they won't slow down the roundabout

    2. Re:Deja Vu? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but we can't stop the ride once it's in motion.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    3. Re:Deja Vu? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      no refunds, either!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:Deja Vu? by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 1

      Dammit! I knew I missed something in the Teeny Tiny Legal Text! (tm)

      ...Oh, what if I offered my first-born? I'd be losing out on the deal!

      --
      Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
    5. Re:Deja Vu? by Alioth · · Score: 1

      An "advanced motorist" is one who has gone to the effort of extra driving training above and beyond the bare minimum needed to get a driving license. The courses in the UK are adminstered by the IAM.

    6. Re:Deja Vu? by PessimysticRaven · · Score: 1

      You know, I was really hoping it was some sort of defensive driving course. I think everyone should learn the PIT maneuver.

      --
      Consistency is only a virtue if you're not a screw-up.
  13. What about non-smart phones? by duguk · · Score: 1

    How about for non-smart phone users?

    Does it help if you don't have to hold the phone with both hands to type?

    1. Re:What about non-smart phones? by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. Any distraction, even with a dumb phone, is a distraction. Driving is a full-time job, requiring 100% of the drivers attention.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    2. Re:What about non-smart phones? by duguk · · Score: 1

      Everything is a distraction at some degree, even thinking about this message tomorrow while you're driving could distract you.

      Yes or no is meaningless, and 100% is concentration is almost certainly unachievable. Stop being silly and give me numbers, dammit.

    3. Re:What about non-smart phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of my driving is long distance, and if I didn't have the cell phone + radio/CD player, I probably would have ended up in a ditch somewhere in the middle of Nevada from falling asleep.

      Of course, when you are the only car on a two lane highway for miles in every direction is a *very* diffrent situation than the 16+ lanes of heavy traffic that you see in some California cities.

      The problem with this country is the one-size-fits-all mentality that results in frankly dangerious situations.

    4. Re:What about non-smart phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, wrong. Driving is a full time job, requiring the drivers' full attention at very rare, unpredictable moments. We've got billions of miles of experience showing that distracted driving is successful enoug that humanity has continued to grow. Your theory about 100% rejects the possibility of soccer moms succcessfully backing out of the driveway. My wife's failure rate is at least E-5, if you discount the ruts on the side of the road. She has, more importantly, failed ot kill any of our children, and totalled no minivans, in the process. I'm not asking where the hell the dent in my truck or the garage door came from, and will continue to assume that I pulled the truck into the garage and backed into the garage door while drunk, since I've never observed the truck in the garage.

    5. Re:What about non-smart phones? by sjames · · Score: 1

      The phone or the user?

    6. Re:What about non-smart phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Driving is a full-time job, requiring 100% of the drivers attention.

      Bullshit. Nobody, but nobody, spends 100% of their attention on driving for more than a few seconds at a time, or is capable or doing so.

      Anyone who claims they can is displaying the same kind of failure of self-analysis that gives us gems like "I can text and drive, no problem" and "I drive BETTER when I'm drunk!"

  14. Mythbusters already did it by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Mythbusters showed that years ago. It was actually quite shocking how similar the test results were between someone who was substantially drunk and someone just talking on the phone (got even worse when they were texting).

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Mythbusters already did it by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Actually no.

      "Texting while driving is worse than drunk driving, because then at least someone is driving the car." -- Marc Maron

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    2. Re:Mythbusters already did it by Zaelath · · Score: 1

      I'm not convinced. If I drive 20 miles drunk I'm drunk for the entire 20 miles. If I send a couple of texts in that time the overall distraction is way down. I think the wiser study was the one that suggested making texting illegal was highly dangerous as people text from their lap to avoid detection instead of from the steering wheel where they have some (limited) vision of the road.

    3. Re:Mythbusters already did it by subreality · · Score: 1

      That's just using conventional phones. Smartphones are much worse - the touchscreen has no touch-feedback so you have to spend a lot of time / braincycles looking at the screen and aiming your finger instead of feeling for the buttons.

  15. Input method? by scorp1us · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've on occasion attempted to text while driving. Yes, I know, bad me, but unlike others I do realize how terribly risky it is. So I only do it at red lights now. However there are a few things that make it even more tempting to do while in motion:
    Swype keyboard (and others) - with decent enough recognition, you can almost thumb-swype a whole message without looking. Corrections are a pain though.
    Dictation (Siri, Evi, and speech-to-text) - actually works quite well.
    But they all take more concentration from the road than they should.

    I think combining a HUD with dictation might just be the way of the future. We need to get these systems developed and studied before we blanket-ban messaging and driving.

    --
    Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    1. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      or just wait till you get to your destination to respond. 99% of stuff doesn't have to be handled RIGHT THIS DAMN MINUTE. People won't die, the world won't end, ect if you respondin 30 or 60 minutes. and if it is that important to respond right now, pull over and respond.

    2. Re:Input method? by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      Jesus, no! Drivers have no business texting while the car us in motion, and the law should be very clear in saying that drivers seen holding a phone while the vehicle is in motion will be treated like drunk drivers. Why even think about a HUD when drivers could simply pull over to browse the web or work on their matchstick model of Big Ben?

      I see no reason to waste time making a moronic and dangerous activity slightly safer

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    3. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We need to get these systems developed and studied before we blanket-ban messaging and driving.

      There is overwhelming evidence at this point that the distraction of being on a call or dealing with a message is actually the main danger, and that the physical effort of manipulating the device, while not completely irrelevant, has a much smaller effect.

      That suggests we blanket ban these dangerous activities (and enforce it) first, and if anyone thinks they've come up with a safe way of doing it the onus is now on them to prove it so before it is permitted on public roads.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    4. Re:Input method? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I think self-driving cars will be the future. Then you can talk, text, or even drink as much as you want.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    5. Re:Input method? by yabos · · Score: 1

      That's true, yet all the laws so far mandate using headsets or some other hands free device to use your phone while driving. This does basically nothing to keep you from getting distracted.

    6. Re:Input method? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      We need to get these systems developed and studied before we blanket-ban messaging and driving.

      your selfishness does not trump safety.

      I doubt you truly understand how much energy a moving car has and how much damage it can do.

      short of a bonafide emergency (almost never happens) there's no good reason to allow such distractions.

      sorry, but you are just not even THINKING, here, dude. no text or email is worth this.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    7. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Sadly, yes. As I noted in another post, the biggest screw-up the government made in the legislation here was that they didn't ban hands-free kits as well, apparently on the basis that enforcement would be impractical. That sent a clear message that driving using a hands-free kit was OK, which was then used extensively in advertising campaigns shortly after the laws were introduced.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    8. Re:Input method? by lgw · · Score: 1

      There is overwhelming evidence at this point that the distraction of being on a call or dealing with a message is actually the main danger

      There's ovewhelming numbers of people making this up and repeating it on the internet, to be sure. Keeping your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel is 90% of the battle. You have millions of years of evolution helping you focus your attention on the scary thing that just happened, but only if you see it. Looking down at a screen is really troubling.

      Also, "X might be ban, lets just banX and worry about it later" is exactly the sort of trading freedom for safety that eventually destroys freedom. But I've started to feel like I'm wasting my breath on that last point - people don't seem to like freedom much any more.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    9. Re:Input method? by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      easy patch for existing laws

      if you are caught texting while driving then you get tagged with a DWI (Driving While Impaired) if you hit somebody then its assault with a Deadly Weapon Kill somebody then you go down for Vehicular Manslaughter.

      In fact any time you are found to be doing anything else while driving (and hit somebody/ wreck) the charges should be bumped to Deliberate Felony status.

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    10. Re:Input method? by Maltheus · · Score: 1

      Isn't the whole point of texting is that it doesn't have to be in real time, unlike a phone call? Why not just wait till you get where you're going? Drinking and driving actually seems far more understandable to me, in that the alternative is pretty much not drinking at restaurants and bars. The alternative to not texting while driving is merely having your response take an extra 10-20 mintues.

    11. Re:Input method? by Calos · · Score: 1

      We all know what the real danger is. Actual passengers to talk to. We should ban them.

      --
      I vote based on politicians' actions, unless contrary to my preconceptions. Often wrong, never uncertain. #iamthe99%
    12. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great, should apply to cops, too, then.

    13. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      helping you focus your attention on the scary thing that just happened

      Undistracted drivers see the scary thing before it happens. It's called anticipation.

    14. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      There's ovewhelming numbers of people making this up and repeating it on the internet, to be sure.

      There might be lots of people repeating it, but some of us most certainly aren't making it up. In fact, some of us have been serious road safety campaigners for years, and by serious I mean people who advocate measures like improved driver education and driving laws based on a critical analysis of empirical data, not wishful thinking.

      Keeping your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel is not even close to 90% of the battle. Neither is worth a damn if you aren't situationally aware. Things like driving while drunk, drugged, or distracted are dangerous conditions because someone in such a state is nowhere near as situationally aware as they should be. That significantly delays effective response when dangers arise, and that in turn sharply increases both the risk of being involved in an accident and the expected severity.

      Also, "X might be ban, lets just banX and worry about it later"

      No. There is no "might". Driving while distracted by using a phone is extremely dangerous. Those who do it should be denied their freedom, explicitly, by locking them in jail until they understand that wilfully endangering the lives of everyone else is not OK. There is absolutely no way you can credibly turn this into some sort of anti-freedom rant.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    15. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Ah, obvious but well-debunked counter-argument #27.

      Actual passengers usually have some basic level of situational awareness, and will instinctively shut up when the driver needs to concentrate. Someone on the other end of a phone line can't see the road ahead and be quiet when a hazard is coming up.

      (Having misbehaving children causing trouble in the back of a vehicle is a problem for the same reason, but unlike using a phone while driving, it is not practical to prohibit ever transporting unruly children by car. We fight the battles we can win.)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    16. Re:Input method? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Undistracted drivers see the scary thing before it happens. It's called anticipation.

      Yes, but humans simply cannot pay attention to unchanging, unthreatening stimulus for very long. We're just not built that way. Design your systems around how humans actually work, not how you'd like them to work!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    17. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been cycling for twenty years and if I didn't stay focused on potential scary things I'd be long since dead. I guess I find it easier to focus because a given situation is a lot more threatening to me than to a car driver.

      The obvious solution is to make cars more dangerous for their occupants though I suspect this is politically unacceptable.

    18. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actual passengers usually have some basic level of situational awareness, and will instinctively shut up when the driver needs to concentrate. Someone on the other end of a phone line can't see the road ahead and be quiet when a hazard is coming up.

      If that were a sufficient explanation, the roads would be littered with the burning hulks of vehicles with two-way radios. They are not.

      (Having misbehaving children causing trouble in the back of a vehicle is a problem for the same reason, but unlike using a phone while driving, it is not practical to prohibit ever transporting unruly children by car. We fight the battles we can win.)

      Except you can't win the phone fight either. Things like Siri and wireless headsets make it difficult-to-impossible to spot a driver using a phone. It's probably for this very reason that the laws allow for hands-free devices; you can't effectively enforce a blanket ban - at least not without resorting to measures so intrusive that they become worse than the problem they're trying to solve.

    19. Re:Input method? by lgw · · Score: 1

      How much additional danger to you is worth taking away someone else's freedom. Everything someone does affects some other people negatively in some way. We cannot have a society based on outlawing everything that might possibly be harmful to others sometimes maybe without eventually outlawing everything (which is where we seem to be headed). The danger needs to be significant, not just non-zero.

      You sound like you've studied tis: so is the danger significant for hands-free calling while driving? How many actual deaths per year are we talking about here.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      If that were a sufficient explanation, the roads would be littered with the burning hulks of vehicles with two-way radios. They are not.

      You aren't making a fair comparison.

      For one thing, only a small proportion of vehicles actually have two-way radios. Even if a high proportion of those that do did have accidents, that would still only represent a tiny fraction of the vehicles on the road.

      For another thing, most such vehicles are driven by professional drivers, who for reasons unrelated to their communications equipment typically have lower risk of accidents in the first place.

      Except you can't win the phone fight either. Things like Siri and wireless headsets make it difficult-to-impossible to spot a driver using a phone.

      Perhaps, but you could at least introduce penalties that would apply in the event of an accident while using the phone, as a deterrent.

      For example, perhaps it would be reasonable to introduce a presumption of fault if a driver were involved in an accident while talking on a hands-free phone.

      Alternatively, you could extend the current ban to include driving while using a hands-free in non-emergency situations, and automatically treat anyone who did get caught breaking the law as not only driving while on the phone but also attempting to pervert the course of justice.

      At least if you took some measure like these, you wouldn't be shouting from an official loudspeaker that using hands-free is just fine and we're all perfectly safe doing it.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    21. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You sound like you've studied tis: so is the danger significant for hands-free calling while driving? How many actual deaths per year are we talking about here.

      The serious studies fairly consistently find driving while using a mobile phone increases the risk of having an accident roughly four times. Whether the phone is handheld or hands-free makes very little difference.

      In terms of fatalities, it's hard to compare stats from different data sets, but I can give you a couple of data points to get the general idea.

      In the US, an NHTSA report on distracted driving reckoned that in 2009 just under 1,000 people were killed by drivers distracted by a cell phone, a little under 1-in-5 of all distraction driving fatalities that year, although the report doesn't claim a direct causal relationship in all cases.

      In the UK, the official STATS-19 report for 2010 found that mobile phone use was a factor in 26 fatal accidents. This type of data is meant to record definite causal relationships. The data is recorded by accident rather than by casualty, i.e., each of those 26 accidents could have resulted in multiple deaths. The reports are filed by officers shortly after the accident, and so tend to under-report factors that can be easily concealed in the immediate aftermath, such as whether a phone was in use at the time. We therefore cannot tell exactly how many fatalities really resulted from phone use, but it is likely to be many more than 26. (Note that use of handheld phones while driving was already illegal in the UK by the time period covered. Stats for both accidents generally and accidents where phone use was a contributory factor in particular were higher a few years earlier before the ban was introduced.)

      Of course studies like these provide only absolute data, and so don't tell us much about the relative risk of driving using a phone without additional data for context. They do show that there are very real consequences to a substantial number of people each year, though, with many people dying and of course many more injured but not fatally.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    22. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are developed. Check newer cars and trucks. Most have bluetooth voice activated commands, including "text ____ to ___", "call ___", etc. Most of the controls are on the steering wheel as well, preventing the need to ever take your hands off the wheel or eyes off the road.

    23. Re:Input method? by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      They ARE more dangerous, and politically, we love it; mortality rates are higher for commuters who only drive, who do not walk or bike, but the deaths come from nice civilized heart attacks, strokes, and other diseases of the sedentary. Try to get in the way of that, and "help, help, I'm being repressed!" What we need, is for cars to SEEM more dangerous. Reality doesn't matter -- if it did, everyone would get a LOT more exercise than they do.

    24. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you going to drive then DRIVE! If your going to fiddle with your phone PULL OVER TO THE SIDE OF THE FRIGGIN' ROAD ASSHOLE!

      They should make cars Faraday Cages so a phone will not work while inside.

    25. Re:Input method? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, do you mean the act of driving itself isn't dangerous, yet we bother with airbags and seatbelts. Yes, drivers can pull over to answer their phone. But where does it stop? As is mentioned in numerous other posts, anything can be a distraction to driving. Not everyone is incapable of ignoring a call. Not everyone is incapable driving with one hand on the wheel. How else do you explain manual transmission?
        The difference is we assume (mostly incorrectly) that drivers are trained to ignore certain distractions. But some are still aren't - we continue to give driving licenses to people who cannot chew gum and walk at the same time, and fully think it is appropriate to ban anything that might distract them from driving? Where are the studies about people drinking say a coffee while driving under these same arbitrary conditions used to justify banning cellphones? Following the same logic, drivers can pull over to touch a dial on their radio, drivers can pull over to even start a discussion with their passenger on which way to turn. So any time they are seen touching the radio or talking to a passenger they should be treated like a drunk driver - because those are distractions as well, and there are plenty of silly people who run into things while distracted by them.

    26. Re:Input method? by MysteriousPreacher · · Score: 1

      That's a very long-winded way of saying "everything is in some way dangerous, some people are better able to avoid dangers, so why ban anything?"

      Does that really make any sense in either long or short forms?

      --
      -- Using the preview button since 2005
    27. Re:Input method? by swalve · · Score: 1

      It makes no less sense than "everything is in some way dangerous, some people are not good at avoiding dangerous things, so let's outlaw everything just in case." If a driver needs a separate law to tell them to not be distracted while driving, they should never have gotten their license, because driving while distracted is already illegal and irresponsible.

    28. Re:Input method? by swalve · · Score: 1

      That's ridiculous, because it is the driver's responsibility to stop listening and tell them to shut up if necessary, no matter where the conversation partner is physically located. It isn't about fighting the battles we can win, it is that banning shit is the wrong war to be fighting. Spend the money enforcing and reinforcing the already existing laws that require drivers to pay the fuck attention. And leave those of us who know how to drive alone.

    29. Re:Input method? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      And leave those of us who know how to drive alone.

      Your comments here suggest arrogance, sociopathic tendencies, and an inability to realistically assess levels of risk associated with driving. All of these factors are strongly positively correlated with increased accident risk.

      It is therefore likely that you are in fact a very bad driver. Ironically, building a concrete case against people like you where there is no room for subjective interpretation and legal wriggling is exactly the reason that specific technical offences like this are useful.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    30. Re:Input method? by swalve · · Score: 1

      Not at all. I drive a lot, have a clean record and haven't hit anyone yet. (Jinxing myself now, I am sure...) But that's because I know my limitations and avoid situations with higher risk, which includes avoiding texting and calling when the situation is not appropriate. But there are lots of times on the road where it is perfectly possible to text with no added risk. The problem drivers will ignore the law and continue to cause trouble, and the net effect will be that the law does nothing but inconvenience people.

  16. Japanese Car Televisions by Securityemo · · Score: 2

    I've heard that it is or was common for Japanese domestic cars to have TVs installed. It seemed strange to me when I heard about it, because I certainly couldn't keep attention to both a TV screen and the road. On the other hand it would probably be easier to regulate attention to that versus a phone conversation where I'm actually pressured to perform two tasks at the same time.

    --
    Emotions! In your brain!
    1. Re:Japanese Car Televisions by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Is the TV installed for the driver to see, of for the passengers to see? You know, few cars have only one seat ...

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Japanese Car Televisions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My car has a DVD player installed(OEM) in the center console. It is in a spot where the driver and all the passengers can see it. BUT, any DVD is audio only unless the car is in PARK. If the car is in gear, you can not watch a movie.

      Of course this center console is the touch screen interface of the CD/MP3/Radio/Satellite/Navigation Unit. While the car will not let a DVD video distract you, there is no safeguards to stop any of the other media components from distracting you.

    3. Re:Japanese Car Televisions by ESRB · · Score: 2

      I don't know about Japan but this is common in South Korea. Taxi drivers too. Not uncommon for someone to watch the game or whatever and drive...

  17. Young people? by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

    Why the focus solely on young people? I see plenty of so-called "adults" that are texting and jabbering incessantly behind the wheel.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    1. Re:Young people? by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

      Why the focus solely on young people? I see plenty of so-called "adults" that are texting and jabbering incessantly behind the wheel.

      Texting or otherwise using a cellphone while driving in fact suggests that the individual is too self-centered and too into instant gratification to be considered to be an "adult".

      --
      Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
    2. Re:Young people? by Calos · · Score: 1

      Interesting viewpoint.

      Guess all criminals should be punished as minors, then.

      --
      I vote based on politicians' actions, unless contrary to my preconceptions. Often wrong, never uncertain. #iamthe99%
    3. Re:Young people? by ibsteve2u · · Score: 1

      Only if you hold that deliberately behaving as a juvenile eliminates both responsibility and culpability for your actions.

      --
      Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
  18. Should be in the no-shit-sherlock dept by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    And similar to having a drunk person on the road, the consequences often end up ruining the lives of people who were not making the horrendously bad decision. The problem, of course, is proving it when something bad hasn't happened. This is why so many people get away with sending text messages while driving, because they don't get caught doing it. Unfortunately it gives them the false belief that they can do that safely.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  19. On the cusp of a sea change by sideslash · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I predict that factors like this will be the impetus for society ultimately being OK with switching over to computer driven vehicles. Not saying that's good or bad, just predicting.

    1. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 2

      Gives a whole new meaning to 'my computer crashed' though...

    2. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict that factors like this will be the impetus for society ultimately being OK with switching over to computer driven vehicles. Not saying that's good or bad, just predicting.

      And then google will release their car with constant ads.

    3. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by davevr · · Score: 1

      Amen! I for one welcome our autonomous car overloads. To paraphrase Homer Simpson: "Technology: The cause of, and solution to, all of the world's problems!"

    4. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by denbesten · · Score: 1

      Or with any luck, perhaps it will encourage public transportation. I personally do not see much of an issue with "texting while riding a train".

    5. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by itsdapead · · Score: 1

      I predict that factors like this will be the impetus for society ultimately being OK with switching over to computer driven vehicles.

      Good idea. Computers will give the road their full attention and, unlike humans, are immune to distrac....

      SmartDrive(tm) is installing an essential update.
      Please wait...

      Crunch!

      --
      In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
    6. Re:On the cusp of a sea change by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      My computer crashed...through it! All of it! Like a hot knife though butter.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  20. OK, fine. The facts are in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...so let's enact laws that reflect the serious danger of driving while texting. Penalties similar to DWI infractions, for starters. Then, while we're at it, let's also deal with other at-the-wheel distractions, like eating, smoking, applying makeup, and yelling at your kids. No... I am quite serious.

    1. Re:OK, fine. The facts are in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you're also not reading and/or understanding what the studies are reporting.

  21. Obviously they need more training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They need a "Texting 101" class in school, so that students can get properly up-to-speed on texting at a young age, and by the time they can drive it only impedes their reaction times by "only" 20% or so.

  22. Texting is a temporary, controllable condition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sort of testing is unrealistic. If I'm texting while stopped at a 90-second traffic light, I can stop texting when the light changes. A drunk driver stays drunk.

    1. Re:Texting is a temporary, controllable condition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear Jackass,

        The light turned, put your phone down and drive or get off the road.

      Thanks,
      The guy behind you with things to get done

    2. Re:Texting is a temporary, controllable condition by Maltheus · · Score: 2

      At least drunks go when the light turns green. And there are far fewer of them out there.

  23. phones aren't the issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can put down a cell phone; But you can't stop being drunk...

  24. Here we go by miltonw · · Score: 0

    You always see these single-study reports to get everyone to panic about this "horrible epidemic" just before the powers-that-be attempt to pass some draconian restriction which will stop everyone from doing something just because a stupid minority.

    A few years from now, after the legislation has been passed in a panic, more studies will then find that the problem really wasn't that bad and other solutions would be better at solving the real problem without restricting everyone's activities. Ah! Too late, the law was already passed.

    Panic early and often, then they can control you.

    1. Re:Here we go by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is a mountain of evidence that driving and using a phone at the same time is highly dangerous, and it has been growing steadily for a long time. This is about as clear-cut and one-sided an issue as you can get, and innocent people are getting seriously hurt and even killed as a direct result of the dangerous behaviour. Outlawing that behaviour isn't draconian, it's making good law in the interests of society based on a rock solid empirical evidence base. Please take your FUD elsewhere.

      This is already illegal in the UK, BTW. The problem is more one of enforcement in this case.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:Here we go by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      We are talking about TEXTING while driving. That requires not just your hand and your mind but your eyes too. How do you drive a car when you can't see the road?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Here we go by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not buying it unless there is a specific breakdown of exactly what driving + whatever is "dangerous". Lumping any and all "using a phone" into a single grouping is disingenuous at best.

      Texting while driving? That's both stupid and dangerous -- outlaw that for sure. But making all phone usage while driving against the law is an over-reaction. The freeway clogs unexpectedly and I need to hands free make a quick phone call -- and that's breaking the law? Come on! I see a dangerous drunk driver (or texting driver) that I want to report? Nope, breaking the law. Even hands free? Nope. I'm using the navigation app on my phone to get me to my destination? Nope, "using phone while driving". Here's your ticket.

      Yeah, there's a "mountain" of evidence about "using a phone" so let's outlaw all "using a phone" now-now-now!

      How about some intelligent solutions? Oh, noes, that takes too long! Panic! FUD!

    4. Re:Here we go by SockPuppetOfTheWeek · · Score: 1

      TEXTING while driving. That requires not just your hand and your mind but your eyes too

      You can't text without looking at the phone? I can.

      Sure, I have to glance at what I punched in before I send it to make sure I said what I intended to say, but it's not hard. Do you look at the keyboard while you type too?

    5. Re:Here we go by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Nope. The article was about using a phone while driving. Any use. Lumping all possible usage of a phone into the same category as texting is a recipe for draconian laws that go too far. Texting while driving is incredibly stupid, but that isn't a reason to outlaw all phone usage.

    6. Re:Here we go by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Of the things you mentioned, almost every one has been the subject of specific controlled experiments.

      Speaking on the phone has, for both hand-held and hands-free devices. Some of that research was the justification for the driving+mobiles ban in the UK, for example.

      Obviously texting has been, because we're having this discussion right now.

      There has been increasing concern about posting to social networks with the increased prevalence of smartphones, but on this one I haven't personally seen any controlled studies yet (which doesn't mean no-one has done them, just that I haven't looked recently). I'm not sure I'd want to be the guy arguing that posting to Twitter/Facebook/whatever is safe given the dramatic increase in risk known to result from regular texting, though.

      So you're right that we should not generalise unreasonably to any use of a phone. However, all of the most common uses have been investigated and found to be highly dangerous.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    7. Re:Here we go by miltonw · · Score: 1

      However, all of the most common uses have been investigated and found to be highly dangerous.

      This one statement I would object to rather strenuously. I sincerely doubt that "all" were found to be "highly dangerous".

      "Some are highly dangerous" I would buy. "Most are highly dangerous" would have me questioning the science. "All"? No. That's not good science -- and I doubt any real scientific research would ever make such a claim.

      That's just my point. A statement that "all were found to be highly dangerous" is just FUD. FUD always comes with an agenda that you're not supposed to inspect very closely.

    8. Re:Here we go by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I would argue that the most common uses for phones are making calls (which in this context could be either hand-held or hands-free) and sending/receiving texts. Those have each been properly studied, by multiple independent groups in each case, and typically they impair driver performance at least as much as being over the legal drink-drive limit where I am. (The pattern is not uniform: some categories of drivers perform much worse when so impaired than others, though that is not surprising because driver performance generally is highly variable with levels of experience, education, etc.)

      In that context, I think it is fair to say that (a) all of the most common uses have been investigated, and (b) all were found (independently) to be highly dangerous. This is not to say that other uses, such as a phone that can be configured as a voice-activated sat-nav tool for example, would necessarily also be dangerous; as you say, the same research does not necessarily support that conclusion.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  25. I doubt it scales, though. by dmomo · · Score: 1

    A little smart phone is probably worse than a little alcohol.

    Maybe a heap of smart phone is still worse than a heap of alcohol.

    I doubt that a whole whopping bunch of smart phone is proportionately worse than a whole whopping bunch of alcohol.

    Though, I could be wrong.

    1. Re:I doubt it scales, though. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. My first though when I read the suimmary was "Which drugs, and how much alcohol?"

    2. Re:I doubt it scales, though. by Shimbo · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's not terribly surprising that you aren't seriously impaired driving when at the legal limit for alcohol. It just means that the limit is set at a reasonable value.

  26. The glass is half full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words, I'm safer driving drunk than all those teens texting on the road. Hooray!

  27. And children are more dangerous than smartphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's hard to hit them with a baseball bat and drive at the same time. You can't really hit them with a smartphone.

  28. It is easier to put down the phone than sober up by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    If you are talking/texting you can always put down the phone it you encounter a difficult situation.
    If you are drunk, you can't just stop being drunk just because you want to.

  29. disable phone using GPS by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Why not just disable sending and receiving messages while the phone is moving over a specified speed? The phone alerts you to the call or text but you can't view the text or answer the call until you pull over. Why is it that people seem to think that a phone call can't wait a few minutes? Make 911 / 999 calls exempt.

    1. Re:disable phone using GPS by miltonw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So passengers are not allowed to use a phone? That's quite an over-reaction.

    2. Re:disable phone using GPS by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

      Passengers also have been shown to increase accident rates.

      Ban passengers too!

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:disable phone using GPS by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 1

      I'm asking because I don't carry a phone and when I did I didn't always answer a call until I felt like returning it. I didn't like being interrupted every 10 minutes by someone sending me a text that had nothing important to say.

    4. Re:disable phone using GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, no, no, you're not going far enough.

      The presence of cars at an accident have been shown to increase accident rates. Clearly, we should be banning cars!

    5. Re:disable phone using GPS by kannibal_klown · · Score: 1

      I'm asking because I don't carry a phone and when I did I didn't always answer a call until I felt like returning it. I didn't like being interrupted every 10 minutes by someone sending me a text that had nothing important to say.

      Then turn off your phone or set it on vibrate. Instead of inconveniencing passengers on cars / trains / whatever.

      I've been in many a situation where the passenger being able to talk to someone on the phone was a god-send. Especially in cars either without GPS or without the built-in-Traffic GPS.

    6. Re:disable phone using GPS by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      So how do you make that detect that you're in a train?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    7. Re:disable phone using GPS by ubergeek65536 · · Score: 1

      In many places passengers aren't allowed to drink alcohol in the car even though the driver may be completely sober.

    8. Re:disable phone using GPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simply require an unlock activity that is really diificult to do while driving but easy to do while sitting on a train

    9. Re:disable phone using GPS by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      and in some, the mere presence of an opened container of alcohol in a moving vehicle is against the law. Florida is that way, or was when I was younger.

    10. Re:disable phone using GPS by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      If you require that every time the velocity goes across a certain threshold people are going to get extremely annoyed. And the idiots in the cars will just get even more distracted as they deal with their phone's unlock challenge.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  30. Faraday Cage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not just engineer cars to be natural Faraday cages?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

  31. Re:What about non-smart (phone) users? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently you are new here or haven't read any of the previously posted research indicating that 'mere' phone conversation during driving renders one as dangerous, due to decreased reaction time, at the wheel of a vehicle as the average drunk. There's no need to approach the keyboard, at all. Just dial-a-distraction and engage in conversation with someone who's not (all) there (either).

    I wonder when researchers will establish the coefficient of distraction we can use to calculate the inverse relationship between the 'smartness' of the phone and the intelligence of its user, behind or in front of the wheel?

  32. Not a problem by kbob88 · · Score: 1

    This is BS. I'm posting this from my mobile phone while speeding down the freeway at 80 mph, and look no problems whatsoev (*&$&*# NO CARRIER

  33. I use my smartphone when driving all the time... by Romwell · · Score: 2

    ...since I use it extensively as a GPS/navigation aid, as do many other people. It allows me to focus on the road more when I am driving in unfamiliar places.

    For many, it is also a music player (which has been a standard component in cars for decades). I doubt that hitting a "play" button to launch a playlist with thousands of songs *once* provides more distraction than going through a CD wallet every hour.

    On the other hand, SMS messaging has been present on pretty much cell phones since the beginning, and you could access the WAP web over GPRS from an old Siemens over a decade ago.

    My point is that many people use smartphones in a car in a way that doesn't make their driving any more dangerous, whereas you could use an old phone in a way that does. Don't blame the device, blame the activity (e.g. communicating by text while driving). While the article actually delivers this point, the title of the article (and the post) does not. The title should have been Using social networks while driving is more dangerous than alcohol.

  34. What? by lennier1 · · Score: 1

    Stuff which distracts a driver's attention could be dangerous?
    Now there's a surprise!!!

  35. It's not just smartphones by Reasonable+Facsimile · · Score: 0

    People will attempt to perform all kinds of additional activities while driving. I've seen folks reading paperback books, eating cereal (from a large bowl), applying makeup, and even shave--all while "driving."

    1. Re:It's not just smartphones by dr2chase · · Score: 1

      Knitting. Yes, I have seen it (sitting up high on a bicycle, while I pass cars and vice-versa).

    2. Re:It's not just smartphones by Reasonable+Facsimile · · Score: 0

      Knitting. Yes, I have seen it (sitting up high on a bicycle, while I pass cars and vice-versa).

      That takes the cake.

  36. This might work... by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0LCmStIw9E

    Then again, what teen watches TV anymore?

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
  37. Re:It is easier to put down the phone than sober u by Dark$ide · · Score: 1

    If you are talking/texting you can always put down the phone it you encounter a difficult situation. If you are drunk, you can't just stop being drunk just because you want to.

    RTFA. You are the cause of the "difficult situation" you're not trying to avoid someone else who's texting while driving.

    Can't folks find the OFF switch or AIRCRAFT MODE or just lock the damned phone in the boot (aka trunk) of the car. You can update FB when you get to a rest area and not while you're driving.

    I don't have this problem for two reasons: 1. I'm that stupid fella on the bicycle that you're just about to attempt to kill and 2. I don't have or need a smartphone.

    --

    Sigs. We don't need no steenking sigs.

  38. smart phones and dumb people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't go so far as to say smart phones are making people stupider, but they do seem to make the stupid ones stand out.

    Just today, as I was heading over to the store to get lunch in the City, I watched as some idiot rollerbladed in front of me on the sidewalk while reading something on his blackberry. The mind reels.

  39. Look Ma! No Hands! by na1led · · Score: 1

    That's why they invented software like Vlingo for smartphones! and Bluetooth headsets for talking. A Smartphone is only as smart as the person using it.

    --
    -- By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out.
  40. Texting I see, but talking? by Amtrak · · Score: 1

    When I drive, or more correctly ride, I answer phone calls all the time with the hands free Bluetooth system built into my motorcycle helmet (Don't even take my hands off the handle bars, Phone tells me who's calling in a robotic voice and I just have to say answer or ignore) I don't find that the "Added distraction" of having to talk while on the bike is any worse than having a passenger in a car, and even less than having someone on the back of the bike. So, where are we going with this? Are we going to say that since passengers are distracting all drivers must be locked in the driving cone of silence with there eyes pried open so they can't blink. It's call acceptable risk, when you get behind the wheel of a car, in the passenger seat, or on a motorcycle you are choosing to gamble that you have higher odds you will arrive safely at your destination than not. But it's still a gamble. We will never make cars 100% safe and I still think the most dangerous thing on the road is some wanker who can't bother to check his mirrors before changing lanes.

  41. Comma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I believe you have, misplaced a comma.

  42. Bring back *real* drivers education by ziggy_az · · Score: 1

    When I was in High School (30+) years ago, Drivers Education spent a lot of time going over police video/film from accident scenes. Un-cut. All the gruesome results in brilliant full color. Most of us learned that 4000+ pounds of steel and glass + high velocity + inattention = gruesome consequences.

    Those reels should be mandatory for every driver. Not everyone will "get it", but enough will.

    --
    "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
  43. Undrunk yourself if the traffic gets dangerous... by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    Very irresponsible, implying that a slower reaction time means a worse driver.

    Plenty of older folks have very poor reaction times (and I'm not talking senile oldies), and almost all young folks have great reaction times. Clearly, a lot of practice and knowledge and judgment goes into driving.

    Alcohol impairs much more than just reaction times. Alcohol can't be switched off.

    Here's a story:

    "The other day when driving home, I was drunk as all hell, but there was hardly any other traffic around. But when I hit I-225, the traffic was suddenly jam packed and hectic, so I suddenly cancelled my drunkenness instantly for the duration of that road."

    Oh wait, that doesn't make any sense. But the actual version of that story, with a phone, fucking does. If I have to text (or talk) while driving, you can bet I'm in the right lane during that part with a great following distance and good future knowledge of what's going on. If shit is buzzing around me or there's some motorcycle doing some crazy shit, I'm not going to let myself get distracted. But if you get behind the wheel wasted, you've accepted limits on your peak and average levels of performance over the whole drive. It's a completely different pickle.

  44. Re:What about non-smart (phone) users? by duguk · · Score: 1

    Apparently you're new here too; like I replied to the other person, this means nothing. All distractions are dangerous; but how dangerous are they? The GP asked about "Risk Change", not "Is this 'dangerous'?"; since that has such an obvious answer.

    Simply remembering that I replied this way to your message may be a distraction to your driving tomorrow. Does that mean I'm a danger to your driving, and that you should be fined £50 for thinking of me?
    Or should this only apply to smoking? Or to eating? Or for having passengers? Or singing to yourself? Do you see my point?

  45. Accident statistics don't support cell phone risk by Arnold+Reinhold · · Score: 2

    Accident statistics in the U.S. do not seem to support the supposed danger of driving while talking on cell phones. During the period when cell phones became wildly popular here, the automobile accident rate has dropped sharply. According to the Centers for Disease Control http://www.cdc.gov/Motorvehiclesafety/mmwr_achievements.html/ "From 2000 to 2009, while the number of vehicle miles traveled on the nation's roads increased by 8.5%, the death rate related to that travel declined from 14.9 per 100,000 population to 11.0 and the injury rate declined from 1,130 to 722." Yes, there were other factors, like seat belt laws, but if cell phones were such a major danger, it's hard to believe deaths could have fallen that much at the exact same time they became ubiquitous.

  46. Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, because every time I text and drive, I always end up drive the wrong way on the freeway.

  47. Show me the actual accident data by sdo1 · · Score: 2

    Show me the massive increase in accidents and fatalities that have come along with the massive increase in cell phone usage. Then I'll believe there's a real correlation. The results of a controlled test designed to yield a certain result isn't useful data.

    Here's the fatality list through 2009. It shows steady decreases in fatalities per mile driven.

    http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

    Of course, that's 3 years old now, but still... there's been an increase in cell phone use through 2009, so if using a cell phone is as dangerous as drunk driving, I'd expect to see a big increase in the fatality rate, not a decrease.

    And here's another flawed study (2010)... http://www.nsc.org/Pages/NSCestimates16millioncrashescausedbydriversusingcellphonesandtexting.aspx

    They estimate that 25% of crashes involve the use of cell phones. Based on that, I would expect accident rates to increase (to a degree) along with cell phone usage. But they don't. Many states have banned cell phone use by drivers. In those states, shouldn't see a big decrease in accidents? Do we? I doubt it.

    -S

    --
    --- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
    1. Re:Show me the actual accident data by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      there was a suggestion a while back that overall accident rates have remained about the same, slightly decreasing as cars become safer from airbags and whatnot, but the choices available for officers to make when writing up accidents tends to be more dynamic.

      what might have been written up as "driver lost control of vehicle" 10 years ago perhaps now the officer asks if they have a cell phone and then writes down "driver distraction" instead. the actual accident rates and situations may have changed less than our descriptions of them has, so the statistics that we get are measures of semantics rather than mechanisms.

    2. Re:Show me the actual accident data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am concerned that driving a simulator is simply not real enough to accurately model real world driving stats. Apart from anything else, do the test participants really take it seriously?

  48. Nonsense! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm currently posting this on my smartphone while driving. NO PROBLEMS! Perfectly safe, in fact I'm about to... >>>

  49. road rage story by jduhls · · Score: 1

    Once, while sitting in line at a stop light just turned green, I noticed my young neighbor hadn't noticed the light change and was also texting. I tooted my horn and did a "wake-up/look ahead" gesture while mouthing "put the phone down". I'm not sure what she thought I said, but she chased me for miles and tried to run me off the road all while trying to take pictures of me and my car with her phone. You can't tell these kids anything. I would say let darwinism flesh these lunatics out if they didn't also endanger everyone on the road around them.

  50. What the cops read by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What you read
    SMARTphones worse than alcohol

    What the cops read
    smartPHONES worse than alcohol

    See the difference there? I do. The cops, on the other hand, are starved for funds. Why a cop fresh out of cop school can barely buy a decent four bedroom house or afford three cars AND a boat, let alone his donuts and sunglasses. The long time cops need to look out for their overblown pensions. They NEED more tickets and so every phone, even bluetooth headset phones, will be illegal. Soon if you get pulled over for not having your seat belt buckled, having dice in your mirror, or having dark skin, you can look forward to this exchange:
    COP: "Can I see your phone?"
    YOU: [GABBING PHONE FROM POCKET] "Sure, officer."
    COP: "This phone is on. I'll have to write you a ticket."
    YOU: "It was in my pocket. I wasn't using it."
    COP: [SMILING] "The law is the law. You're can take it to court if you want."
    YOU: [THINKING OF THE TIME OFF, THE MORE TIME OFF FROM POSTPONEMENTS, THE INEVITABLE DEFEAT AND HAVING TO PAY A LARGER FEE] "Thank you, officer."
    COP: "Have a nice day."

    Chocolate glazed for everyone!

  51. But what about books... by Roogna · · Score: 1

    I see a lot of complaints about books, but I want to see the studies about:

    Reading books while driving.
    Reading maps while driving.
    Shaving while driving.
    Eating while driving.

    And, surprisingly enough, I'd love to see a study about Reading a map while taking notes on a notebook while driving a delivery truck. (Yes, I've seen this happen)

    The thing is, yes using your phone actively while driving is dangerous, so are a million other things. What we need is rather than one at a time passing laws to limit each dangerous thing, is to start again requiring actual TESTING of people before we license them to drive. I mean when I got my first license I had to prove I could drive on actual roads with actual lights and traffic. I found out a few years ago, that where I live now does the driving test on a -closed- course. It made it very clear why no one out here knows how to act at a four way stop. We also need actual enforcement of traffic laws besides speeding. I mean my god, I've watched cops ignore cars in front of them making illegal u-turns on a RED light right in front of them. Not to mention law enforcement who apparently no longer obeys any traffic laws, so much for setting examples.

  52. Think undrunking yourself is hard? Try unolding. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Old people have even slower reactions than even my drunk-off-my-ass self does. This is provably true, yet nobody talks about taking away their licenses, or vilifies the evil old people like they vilify the evil drunk drivers... not for any little bit of impaired slow reactions, anyway, not until they're really much too blind to drive safely.

    You want to talk about peak and average performance? I'll stop being drunk in a few hours, but they'll never stop being old.

  53. What about patience? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure the reaction time is delayed, but isn't patience increased?
    Drunk people are speeding and flying down the road.

    If you're posting on facebook then you're in no rush

  54. But can you... by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    I can text, check my Facebook, AND drive with no problems. I think I'm one of only about 20 world-wide that can do it.

    Yo dawg, I heard you like crashing into things, so I put Angry Birds on your phone so you can crash into things while you crash into things.

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  55. Really? by EchoRomeo · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure staring at anything other then the road while driving is more dangerous then alcohol.

  56. Re:I use my smartphone when driving all the time.. by Maltheus · · Score: 1

    I've never been sympathetic to cell phone use (talking and texting) while driving because it's always been obvious that those people were far worse then you typical drunk driver. But yours is an important distinction. My pandora classical channel calms me down and makes me a safer driver. The navigation app keeps me from constantly taking my eyes off the road to review some hand written directions. A smart phone can be used responsibly, but at least half the people out there don't yet seem capable of it.

    I don't think it's practical to legislate between the two types of use. We just need more of these studies to hammer it home to people so that they'll start changing their behavior on their own.

  57. I never text or operate my phone while driving by mrops · · Score: 1

    In fact I make sure the movie starts playing before I put the car in drive.

  58. Idiots by DerPflanz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everybody who does something else than drive while driving is an idiot.

    Here in the Netherlands, just *holding* a phone will cost you 180 euros. I really do not understand why people think it is OK to text and drive.

    --
    -- The Internet is a too slow way of doing things, you'd never do without it.
    1. Re:Idiots by miltonw · · Score: 1

      I don't understand the assumption that any conceivable use of a phone in a moving vehicle is criminally "dangerous" and must be punished, regardless of what the actual use was and the actual danger, if any. I call that over-reaction.

    2. Re:Idiots by Andtalath · · Score: 1

      Like for instance, having certain types of sex with young people below the age of consent could easily be non-dangerous for the young person you mean?
      Barriers like it exist since when an activity is deemed inherently risky to someone other than yourself it should be blocked since statistically that is more advantageous.

    3. Re:Idiots by DerPflanz · · Score: 1

      Simple, the assumption is based on the fact that any use of a phone in a moving vehicle means less attention to driving. Driving is hard. It takes a lot of brain resources to do it. Taking some of it away will result in not processing some things. An accident happens in a split second.

      --
      -- The Internet is a too slow way of doing things, you'd never do without it.
    4. Re:Idiots by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Simple, the assumption is based on the fact that any use of a phone in a moving vehicle means less attention to driving. Driving is hard. It takes a lot of brain resources to do it. Taking some of it away will result in not processing some things. An accident happens in a split second.

      So hands-free calling, which is pretty much identical to talking to a passenger, is "dangerous" enough to be lumped in with texting? Nice! Let's outlaw everything that "means less attention to driving": Like talking to passengers, listening to the radio, thinking and, especially, looking away from the immediate road/cars/traffic-signs to look for a parking space, look for an address, look for a specific store, etc. If anyone is doing anything except paying total attention to road, cars and traffic signs, arrest them!

      Yeah, that's not an over-reaction. That's reasonable.

      Some idiots text while driving and let's just get down on every single possible action by every single person that just might "mean less attention to driving".

      But exactly how will this stop the idiots from doing idiotic things??

    5. Re:Idiots by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Like for instance, having certain types of sex with young people below the age of consent could easily be non-dangerous for the young person you mean?

      Gee, no that isn't anything like what I said and isn't "what I mean". Idiot.

  59. Thank God by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can now, in all good conscience, put down my smartphone and proudly pick up my beer again!

  60. What this really means by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    Science is useless in the hands of stupid people. Based on how many people use cell phones while driving. Compared to drunk driving. We should have hundreds of thousands dead from cell phones.

    A much more likely scenario is that the prohibitionists have lowered the blood alcohol level for drunk driving so low that it doesn't really equate to drunkenness. And we are arresting people who pose no real risk.

    Now get people drunk, really drunk. Not oops they had one glass of wine. Then do this test and you'll get a much different result.

    But let's be honest. What this study really shows is every 3 months dumb fuctards will post this same baseless study and drive us insane.

    We should run over those who resubmit this topic more than once a year.

  61. Why not both? by jupiter126 · · Score: 1

    This study compares the cases, it would be interesting to do the correlation with drunk people using smartphones!

  62. Re:Accident statistics don't support cell phone ri by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

    Yes, there were other factors, like seat belt laws,

    Not so much.

    Seat belt laws in the USA date from the 80's and 90's. In general, the effect they'd have had had already happened by 2000.

    --

    "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  63. "Smartphones" are more dangerous ... by miltonw · · Score: 1

    Yes, "Smartphones" are more dangerous than alcohol when driving. Just owning a smartphone makes you a bad driver. Those evil smartphones! Ban them all!

  64. Re:Undrunk yourself if the traffic gets dangerous. by eriqk · · Score: 1

    If I have to text (or talk) while driving,[...]

    You don't.

  65. Re:Undrunk yourself if the traffic gets dangerous. by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    Course I do!

    I suppose I could "choose" not to drive at all as well, for cleverly chosen values of "choose".

  66. Using it how? by readin · · Score: 1

    When I read these studies, I often wonder how many variations were tried. Usually some mention is made of "even hands free", but I suppose that means a set of earphones. The first time I ever tried to use a cell phone while driving, I immediately found that he voice dancing around my head as I moved my head around (looking various ways for turning, lane changing) was highly disorienting. I'm used to the person I'm talking to staying in one place. If I hold the phone still in front of my mouth while I talk, I don't have that problem.

    Have they tested policemen and truckers using CB radios to see how distracted they are? What about a "hands free" set up where the voice of the person you're talking to comes through the radio speakers?

    One thing I think is distracting that doesn't get much talk is the fact that the person you're talking to doesn't see the same thing you do. This means that when something drastic happens and you have to cut off the conversation for a few seconds, the person on the other end of the phone doesn't know why - so your tendency to be polite will cut into your tendency focus on the road when the need arises. You don't have this problem with someone the car with you- they saw the same thing you did and how you had to react. This might acount for a fraction of a second reduced reaction time. Odd as it sounds, perhaps a video and audio link would be safer than a audio-only link. Another advantage to a video link is that part of your brain wouldn't be occupied trying to imagine the other person.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  67. Myth Busted by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

    The Mythbusters proved that if you are forced to continue a conversation on a cell phone while driving through a test course, your driving skills would suffer. In real life, the experience would've went something like "Hey, I'm going to have to call you back. I'm going to be driving through an obstacle course. Bye."

    --

    ---
    DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    1. Re:Myth Busted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're distracted, that's the point. It's more like "oops, I just ran into an obstacle course, I'll have to call you back".

  68. Re:It is easier to put down the phone than sober u by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    1 - *I* don't drive and phone/text at the same time. Part of the reason is that it is illegal in my country.
    2 - I am not denying the fact that using a smartphone is dangerous, I am questioning the fact that using a smartphone is more dangerous than being drunk.
    3 - WTF are you doing on the motorway with your bicycle ? (in the article, none of the road sections tested look bicycle-friendly)

  69. Not only that but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...looking at hot women, eating hamburgers, fiddling with GPS units, receiving oral sex, map reading, and shaving are even more dangerouser than smart phones. It's good to have scientific studies to confirm this stuff. Keeps those yahoos from spending as much of their time driving.

  70. smartphones are indeed dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I had a nokia 3310 a sony ericson K750 and an HTC rose. I could call anyone with safety while driving
    Now with touch interfaces (iphone/android) i have to stop by dial someone. you have to be completely distracted to operate touch-phones while keys in older phones could be pressed blindly...

  71. Enforcement - NOT! by ks*nut · · Score: 2

    I can't agree strongly enough with the statement that, if you're driving you shouldn't be doing anything else. I ride a bicycle frequently and if I get run over by a texting driver then I'm dead. If one of my two kids gets run over by a texting driver there won't be a straight-jacket strong enough. And police enforcement is a joke in the U.S. From what I have observed they'll run the occasional speed trap or alcohol enforcement exercise, but I see a lot less police presence on the roads these days and much more careless driving. I guess that cars have gotten so safe that law enforcement no longer need to do their job.

    1. Re:Enforcement - NOT! by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      I ride a bicycle frequently and if I get run over by a texting driver then I'm dead.

      But you'll survive if they've got a mouth full of Big Mac, or they're looking at their GPS, or their electronic toll transponder falls off their windshield and they bend down to pick it up?

      Cars and bicycles are a dangerous mix and your luck might run out at any moment. I'd hate to be the person to have to tell your kids that daddy isn't coming home because he cared more about [reason why you ride a bicycle] than minimizing his risks by riding in something safe, so he could've been there to see his kids grow up.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
  72. Apples and oranges by uvajed_ekil · · Score: 1

    This is not quite a fair comparison. I know for a fact that I am perfectly capable of taking my allegedly smart phone with my in the car and keeping it in my pocket where it creates no distraction. On the other hand, if my BAC were .15 or somewhere near that range, I doubt that simply ignoring my drunkenness would allow me to maintain my ability to drive.

    --
    This is a hacked account, for which the owner can not be held responsible.
  73. Alternative by shiftless · · Score: 1

    I'd like to see driving bans for the first offense. Try riding the bus for three months as a reminder it is a privilege, not a right to be able to drive a car.

    I have a better idea. Let's ban anyone from the country for 3 months who suggests that the right to drive to a "privilege." Sorry sheep, but your forefathers vehemently disagree with you that the government has any right to restrict travel.

    And yes, not being able to drive is a HUGE travel restriction in most of the country.

  74. Better idea by shiftless · · Score: 1

    If only we could keep those other people off of the road you and I can relax and sip our caramel machiatos while carrying on a text conversation about the mundane simpletons who could never have our intellectual capacity.

    Here's a better idea: let's have smarter licencing of drivers, so that the majority of people on the road can now be counted on to have some modicum of driving skills. Let's then get in our cars, buckle our seat belts, and remember as well out onto the road that driving is a risk and is dangerous, and so conduct ourselves accordingly.

    1. Re:Better idea by ATMAvatar · · Score: 1

      The problem is deeper than insufficient testing. Over the years, the sense of personal responsibility enshrined by such sayings as "the buck stops here" has all but withered away. The epidemic of poor drivers is just another symptom.

      All too many drivers will give half-assed attention to their own driving under the (usually subconscious?) assumption that it is the job of everyone else to look out for them rather than the other way around. In my experience, this is especially apparent with the drivers of larger vehicles, though certainly not limited to them.

      --
      "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    2. Re:Better idea by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      Exactly - get on a motorcycle for a bit. You learn real quick that your job is to look out not just for yourself but also for everybody else who knowingly or unknowingly are trying to kill you. That's a lesson that doesn't go away quickly when you get back in your car.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    3. Re:Better idea by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree with you, but I did just want to point out that I was simply mocking the self-important jackass GP. You and my sibling poster here sum up nicely that a lot of the problem comes from people ignoring the risks and assuming they will be protected by their cars and other drivers. More training and stricter licensing can improve that, but as long as we feel "safe" in our cars we get lazy and do things that greatly increase the risks without necessarily realizing it.

      --
      +1 Disagree
  75. Nonsense by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Why not reframe the question? If I where an operator of a gantry crane and you worked in very close proximity to me. Would you want me texting while I was moving two tons of metal near you? Would you not fire someone for being drunk while operating that same crane(instead of making them take classes)? Wouldn't you at least give the operator a tongue lashing for operating the crane unsafely, even when no-one was hurt?

    Well that depends. Is it a fleet full of gantry cranes, sitting side by side, which people have no alternative to operating if they want to be able to live?

    Cars are extremely dangerous, more dangerous than guns because people operate them very frequently and at least some people operate them with little or absolutely no thought of what is safe. I could spout a hundred anecdotes about how I and other operated cars in a manner that was unthinking and unsafe. It is a miracle that people don't die more often in car accidents.

    It's a miracle, or its just your failure to understand risk?

    What would you say about someone who brandished a handgun in order to get someone to get out of the way? Then think of the same thing the next time you or someone you know creeps up on a pedestrian in a crasswalk because the driver is in a hurry or just doesn't like being made to wait four second.

    People feel bigger and more powerful when they drive a big and powerful vehicle, versus a person on foot.

    In other news people feel bigger and more powerful when driving bigger cars than others around them. They also feel bigger and more powerful when they know the person they are intimidating is unable to "fight back", is at a disadvantage, or will never been seen again.

    More details at 11.

    The reason car driver's 'rights', which I can only assume you mean the 'right to drive fast and ignore proscribed procedures', are taken away is because people are stupid and ignorant and need to be told what to do because we are self-destructive by nature.

    Our founding fathers would STRONGLY disagree with your line of "reasoning" here.

    Especially when we get a little adrenaline rush from driving fast or narrowly avoiding an accident.

    Right, because the adrenaline rush from narrowly avoiding an accident TOTALLY makes me want to go out and try to almost cause another one.

  76. Re:It is easier to put down the phone than sober u by dr2chase · · Score: 1

    In this country, with the exception of high speed roads ("limited access highways"), bicycles are allowed on all roads. Drivers are supposed to pay attention and drive in a way that makes this a safe choice for the cyclists. Reality diverges from theory, of course, though it is one of those things were most people are great, another chunk is clueless but well-meaning, and then there's a small number of inconsiderate bozos who ruins it for everyone. I determined this experimentally with a rear-facing camera on one of my (bicycle) commutes; very many people would see me and take sensible steps before I was even aware of them (at quite some distance, true defensive driving).

  77. Cell Jamming Field by bgibby9 · · Score: 1

    How about providing a localised jamming field within the car whilst the car is in motion. That way you can pull over and get a signal if you need to and you won't be disturbed by shit when you're driving!

    --
    http://www.gibby.net.au
  78. Most insightful post in the discussion by shiftless · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately there is little or no effort in trying to actually reduce the laws out there, because there is so much revenue is finding Law Breakers.

    Now you see exactly why studies like this are coming out. OMG, using a smart phone is 10x more dangerous than DRUNK DRIVING!!11 OMFG. This TOTALLY explains the enormous, previously unexplainable increase in traffic deaths since the iPhone was introduced in 2007. Right?

    MORE LAWS NEEDED NOW! And of course, you won't mind paying for the extra cops, extra courts and judges, extra prisons, extra clerks and janitors, extra credit card machines, and other capital needed to establish an efficient system for extracting taxe....er, "fines" out of you and your fellow citizens's pockets.

    First they came for the speeders, and I said nothing because I obey the speed limit....

  79. Figures by NoSalt · · Score: 0

    And, yet, they keep pulling me over for drinking and driving, and never for talking/texting and driving.

  80. My feelings by backwardsposter · · Score: 1

    Cops want more revenue. A system where those in power can use it to make more money? What could possibly go wrong