Congress Capitulates To TSA; Refuses To Let Bruce Schneier Testify

McGruber writes "Following up on an earlier Slashdot story, earlier today, the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and the Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure held a hearing titled 'TSA Oversight Part III: Effective Security or Security Theater?' ... In a blog update, Bruce Schneier says that 'at the request of the TSA' he was removed from the witness list. Bruce also said 'it's pretty clear that the TSA is afraid of public testimony on the topic, and especially of being challenged in front of Congress. They want to control the story, and it's easier for them to do that if I'm not sitting next to them pointing out all the holes in their position. Unfortunately, the committee went along with them.'"

Comments

Naturally

[betterunixthanunix]

We would not want to threaten the profits of all those backscatter machine companies by pointing out how little TSA's airport security really accomplishes, now would we? What, you think that because Schneier is a prominent security researcher, he is supposed to be talking about the failures of security programs?

Re:Naturally

[cpu6502]

No it's because Schneier has a conflict-of-interest since he's a hostile party in an ongoing lawsuit against the TSA. It makes sense that he would be excluded.

Maybe they should get the breast-feeding woman who was locked in a glass jail for an hour (and missed her plane) to testify before Congress. Her crime? She wanted to carry milk home to her new baby.

Or Miss America who was brought to tears by the TSA groping.

Or the lady who was forced to milk herself in a public restroom, or else have her equipment seized by the TSA as "contraband". Or the "don't touch my junk" guy. Or the 3 elderly ladies who were strip-searched. Or the young woman who overheard TSA guards commenting she had a "fine body" and asking her to step through the scanner 3 times. Or..... (Just read infowars.com or RTamerica.com; it summarizes all this stuff.)

Re:Naturally

[betterunixthanunix]

Oh, so they called in another expert who has done the same analysis as Schneier, right? Or will it just be the TSA's choice of experts?

Re:Naturally

[qeveren]

If he's in a conflict of interest due to the lawsuit against the TSA, doesn't that mean the TSA shouldn't be allowed to testify either, being involved in a lawsuit involving the TSA? :)

Re:Naturally

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget that the Judge Dredd rule applies, and they are the law.

Re:Naturally

[fahrbot-bot]

Or the lady who was forced to milk herself in a public restroom, or else have her equipment seized by the TSA as "contraband".

Have her breasts seized? Sure, I can understand that; probably more than 3oz of liquid in those things. If she wants to get them through security, she needs to wrap them in plastic and write "Saline Solution" on them. See Bruce Schneier: The Things He Carried

Schneier took from his bag a 12-ounce container labeled "saline solution."

"It's allowed," he said. Medical supplies, such as saline solution for contact-lens cleaning, don't fall under the TSA's three-ounce rule.

"What's allowed?" I asked. "Saline solution, or bottles labeled saline solution?"

"Bottles labeled saline solution. They won't check what's in it, trust me."

They did not check. As we gathered our belongings, Schneier held up the bottle and said to the nearest security officer, "This is okay, right?" "Yep," the officer said. "Just have to put it in the tray."

"Maybe if you lit it on fire, he'd pay attention," I said, risking arrest for making a joke at airport security. (Later, Schneier would carry two bottles labeled saline solution—24 ounces in total—through security. An officer asked him why he needed two bottles. "Two eyes," he said. He was allowed to keep the bottles.)

Re:Naturally

[random_ID]

No it's because Schneier has a conflict-of-interest since he's a hostile party in an ongoing lawsuit against the TSA. It makes sense that he would be excluded.

Why? Testifying before congress isn't like serving as a judge where conflict of interest is not permitted. Why shouldn't someone with a grievance be permitted to testify before Congress?

Re:Naturally

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if only they could be prosecuted under RICO...

Re:Naturally

[Fjandr]

I can hear the grinding of the gears of logic from here ... hopefully you'll find the clutch before you destroy the transmission ...

The TSA should be at the table. The point was that the conflict should not disqualify Schneier for participating either. If the simple fact that they are engaged in a legal battle is enough to disqualify one side, it should be enough to disqualify the other.

Re:Naturally

[Ash Vince]

Have her breasts seized? Sure, I can understand that; probably more than 3oz of liquid in those things. If she wants to get them through security, she needs to wrap them in plastic and write "Saline Solution" on them. See Bruce Schneier: The Things He Carried [schneier.com]

The link you posted has a very relevant and insightful paragraph where it details exactly what has made flying safer:

"Counterterrorism in the airport is a show designed to make people feel better," he said. "Only two things have made flying safer: the reinforcement of cockpit doors, and the fact that passengers know now to resist hijackers."

This is mostly spot on, but part of making people go through a heightened security screen is to remind them of the threat.

Here in the UK we had had terrorism since before I was born, we simply have less need be reminded. I expect most Israelis feel them same way since they have had a similar problem. We are used to looking out for people behaving suspiciously, we are used to keeping an eye out for unattended bags in airports or other places people congregate. There is a reason that most UK mainline train stations have no litter bins, we removed them all when the IRA decided to leave bombs in them in the 80's and 90's.

The IRA very rarely targeted air travel as they were less likely in mass killing of civilians in the later years and more interested in property damage but they still used explosives and people still died so we got used to having to keep an eye out. Now we have to keep an eye out in different places and for different things but we are still more used to being alert in the same way.

You guys in the US have never had to worry about domestic terrorism in the same way before so it is only natural you are still trying to figure out how to deal with it. It is very scary that one of your fellow citizens wants to turn on you but you have no idea exactly who. Many people though deal with this fear by blocking it out and not thinking about it, forcing people to jump through some hoops also forces them to think about it at times when it is very important.

Re:Naturally

[KarrdeSW]

No it's because Schneier has aagenda since he's involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the TSA. It makes no sense that he would be excluded because that describes almost anyone testifying in congress.

FTFY

But seriously, conflicts of interest don't apply to advocates who are interested in change, there's absolutely no conflict since everyone knows the agenda you have before you even enter the room. Conflicts of interest apply to decision-makers, not some people who speak on a panel that have no actual influence.

Re:Naturally

[Svartalf]

"Counterterrorism in the airport is a show designed to make people feel better,"

I don't feel better, nor do most other people in fact. It's part of the reason the airline industry's hurting. In the large, most people don't travel any more by air unless they have to because of this tripe.

Re:Naturally

[jvkjvk]

ABSOLUTELY!

How are those not relevant?

If the hearing doesn't bring up anyone who has a "conflict of interest" for the program, the hearing itself is just theater.

How the fuck can you not understand this?

Regards.

Not a Hearing

[Sponge Bath]

Cherry picking speakers to support the status quo is just theater, nicely complementing the security theater of the TSA.

Re:Not a Hearing

[TheGratefulNet]

what makes you think that lawmakers have our interests at heart or care about fairness?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activities_Committee

that was the first one that popped into my head; I'm sure I could find lots of other 'railroaded' committees that didn't care about justice and only wanted to make it seems like there was a process.

more and more, as you see how 'justice' works, you realize its all a show.

how sad, huh? to learn how reality works; it really rocks your world view, doesn't it?

Re:Not a Hearing

[Sponge Bath]

There is no counterexample that the GP's responding to.

I think where Clint was going is:

Me: A hearing does not involve cherry picking speakers.
Counterexample: The House cherry picked speakers for what they called a hearing.
Me: No TRUE hearing involves cherry picking speakers.

What I'm getting at is the definition of a hearing is an investigation or examination of facts, and by excluding witnesses and facts what the House was doing was putting on a show.

Re:Not a Hearing

[tunapez]

Everything I learned in kindergarten was a lie.

Re:Not a Hearing

[bill_mcgonigle]

what makes you think that lawmakers have our interests at heart or care about fairness?

I was told so in government school.

Re:Not a Hearing

[Anonymous Coward]

Cherry picking speakers to support the status quo is just theater, nicely complementing the security theater of the TSA.

Bruce is currently involved in a lawsuit against the TSA, so he is no longer a neutral witness offering impartial, expert testimony. He has a vested interest in the outcome of the hearings, so his testimony would have to be considered suspect.

Note that if Congress takes any kind of bill to the floor for debate, any Congress critter can still call on him to stand up and give testimony, he just can't act as a neutral expert witness for purposes of this type of oversight hearing.

Note to mods: Stop modding shit +5 Insightful just because you agree with some dipshit knee-jerk response. Insightful is supposed to mean that the post offers some kind of insight or reveals something relevant. The post you have currently modded up is pure flamebait, all it does is trash talk on the TSA and fails to offer any information, supporting evidence, or argument. The fact that I happen to mostly agree with the poster is irrelevant- it is not "Insightful" by any definition.

What kind of congress is that?

[Taco Cowboy]

I thought the congress of the United States is a congress of ALL

Or am I wrong in this?

Excluding Mr. Schneier from testifying has violated the charter (if there is one written) of the congress of the United States of America

Or am I wrong in that also?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same congress that prevented any women from testifying on women's health issues recently.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anon-Admin]

Congress has been violating the "charter" AKA The Constitution for years. If you are just noticing this then you need to wake up, get a cup of coffee, read the constitution and find out what has really been going on.

However, there is no guarantee that you or anyone will get to testify before congress. There is a guarantee that you will be secure in your persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.

4th amendment
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Can some one point to the airport exclusion? Or where congress amended the constitution to allow this?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Same congress that prevented any women from testifying on women's health issues recently.

I believe you mean "one woman from testifying on religious freedom issues". The issue before congress was whether the mandate was a potential violation of the rights of religious institutions. It was not an evil panel of old men trying to put a baby in every woman's uterus.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Kell Bengal]

Can some one point to ... where congress amended the constitution to allow this?

Now don't go giving them ideas!

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Dunbal]

4th amendment "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Can some one point to the airport exclusion? Or where congress amended the constitution to allow this?

They simply changed the interpretation of "unreasonable". After all you may be a terrorist, citizen.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Obfuscant]

Can some one point to the airport exclusion? Or where congress amended the constitution to allow this?

They didn't need to. The prohibition is against "unreasonable" searches. That means reasonable ones are allowed. Guess who gets to define "unreasonable"? Well, "reasonable" has been defined to include "voluntary", and "voluntary" has been defined to mean "going past this point" when there is a sign that says "by going past this point you are subject to search."

The same kind of argument against TSA searches would apply to searches conducted at the entrance to military bases.

Bruce's appearance had already been cancelled last week, at least by Friday, when the slashdot story about how it was mandatory to use facebook was posted. The FA didn't say why, just that it had been.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[NeutronCowboy]

The border exclusion has been a long-standing tradition: the understanding is that in order to control your borders, you need to be able to stop and search people indiscriminately, and without a search warrant. Or at least, the search warrant is implied in the fact that someone wants to cross the border.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[cpu6502]

Which means we shouldn't be searched for airflights (or trains or cars) that travel internal to the U.S. and cross no borders. And yet they do it all the time.

I was caught in several of these while following I-8 from California to Texas. Most just waved me past, but one stop demanded to search my trunk. I refused. ("No warrant; no search." - ACLU of DC.) As punishment they made me stand in the hot sun for an hour & get a nasty burn. Bastards. The SA and Homeland cops think they can look anyplace they want.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Dog-Cow]

Yes it does. I believe it's the 10th amendment.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Moofie]

Doesn't give you the right to breathe, either.

It's almost like some rights are, what's the word? Oh yeah. Inalienable.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[element-o.p.]

No, but it *does* grant the right to travel. I live in Alaska. Granted, I live in Anchorage which is connected to the lower-48 by highways. However, my job provides services to a village called Bethel (and a couple dozen surrounding villages) which are only accessible by air (or dog team, *if* it's winter and you've got two weeks to get where you're going). Therefore, in effect, by denying access to the airlines without a search, you have essentially denied the right of travel without forfeiting your right to be free from searches to at least a quarter of the residents of the state.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[vux984]

Or at least, the search warrant is implied in the fact that someone wants to cross the border.

Well, except that it applies to domestic flights.

And while we might want to catch people sneaking into or out of the country with contraband we can safely restrict it to people we actually suspect... searching every man woman child, baby, citizen, foreigner, exchange student, disabled person, and war veteran... "just in case" is beyond ridiculous.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[warGod3]

Actually the Executive Branch controls flying in the USA since 1958. The FAA can regulate, in the name of safety, air travel. They started in the security aspect in 60s and 70s due to highjackings. The security aspect transferred over to DHS and TSA after 9/11.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Just remember that the constitution does not grant you the right to fly either.

Actually the American founders though of that problem, and solved it via the Ninth Amendment

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

This passage is really genius and its a great pity that the kind of intellectual governance that drafted it no longer exists in the US today.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[jank1887]

Here's the committee, see any of yours on there? Send 'em an angrygram.
http://oversight.house.gov/committee-members/

specifically, ask them who they'll be inviting instead to provide counterpoint, if not Mr. Schneier.
Ask them how they can assume the TSA, which must provide a biased story to (1) avoid contradicting previous statements, (2) to protect their future budget and (3) to successfully defend the lawsuit for which Mr. Schneier was removed, can be considered an unbiased source of information. (Oh wait, they're federal employees, altruism must be taken for granted)

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[lgw]

Hey, you're the one who entered the Constitution-free zone, what did you expect. The majority of Americans live in that zone, by some amazing coincidence.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[colinrichardday]

And if the facts are on the "liberal" side?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[dgatwood]

If anybody honestly expected the U.S. government to bring in experts on any issue even slightly tied to the giant boondoggle that is the TSA, you must have been hiding under a rock for the past ten years.

In fact, I'll go one step further and say that the day Congress actually lets competent, intelligent technology experts into any discussion, we'll have solved global warming semipermanently by balancing the heat from the sun with the icy breeze coming up from hell.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[englishknnigits]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting that matters of religious freedoms should only allow input from religious people at the exclusion of all others? You don't have to agree with her but something is wrong when you argue for a 'nah nah I'm not listening' debate.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Teppy]

The meaning of the word "unreasonable" has become vague, at least in common use. From the oldest dictionary I could find (Oxford English Dictionary, first edition http://archive.org/stream/oedxaarch#page/n889/mode/2up), it is:
1: Not endowed with reason; irrational 2: Not acting in accordance with reason or good sense

IOW, Unreasonable means "without a reason." The government can not conduct a search without having a reason to do the search. This makes perfect sense: If an TV was stolen nearby and soon after an eyewitness says they saw you carrying a TV into your house, then the police have a reason to search your house: To see if the stolen TV is inside. On the other hand, if the TSA picks a person at random, then they don't have any reason to search him for bombs.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Bull.

The constitution grants rights to the goverment. The american system is built on a foundation of "deny all with specific exceptions" for the government and "permit all with specific exceptions" for the people.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[CanHasDIY]

Again we find somebody on slashdot egregiously misrepresenting the meaning of the Amendments. What that Amendment means is that the Constitution does not contain a comprehensive list of your rights. You may have other rights not listed here. Film at 11.

Which, coincidentally, is covered by the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

It's almost as if the founders anticipated this sort of thing...

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[swillden]

Just remember that the constitution does not grant you the right to fly either.

Actually the American founders though of that problem, and solved it via the Ninth Amendment The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. This passage is really genius and its a great pity that the kind of intellectual governance that drafted it no longer exists in the US today.

That passage was James Madison's forlorn hope. He argued strongly that a Bill of Rights was a bad idea, because it could never enumerate everything that mattered and anything that was left out would have second-class status at best, or even be called a non-right because obviously if it were a right it would have been included. Only when it became clear that the absence of a Bill of Rights was threatening the Constitution, because the anti-Federalists were arguing that a "strong" federal government (remember that "strong" in those days meant something that was still only the barest shadow of today's juggernaut) would trample the rights of the people, did Madison relent and begin working on what we now know as the Bill of Rights.

The 9th and 10th were his attempt to stave off the disaster he'd predicted. History has shown that he was not wrong in his prediction of government running roughshod over non-enumerated rights. However, there's also not much proof that he was right in his prediction that not enumerating any rights would have worked better. He and the other Federalists really placed their trust in the states and the ability of the people to keep their own state governments from trampling their rights, but that hope proved just as vain, which is why the 14th amendment was eventually required.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[gmhowell]

We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

You conservatives and your bridges to nowhere...

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[element-o.p.]

I don't know if you're trolling, intentionally disingenuous or just misinformed, so I'll assume the latter. Nevertheless, it might be a good idea to actually visit here before trying to tell my why I'm wrong about the place I've lived for over twenty years.

That is absurd. It wasn't the US government that decided that people should build a village in an area so remote that it was impractical to build a road that would be passable in the winter. The people who live there decided that they wanted to live in a place that's inaccessible. You can't blame the government for that. (Well, you can blame them, but you can't expect such absurd blaming to go without response.)

Ummm...you do realize that most of the peoples on the west coast of Alaska have lived there for longer than there even has been a United States government, don't you?

Also, are you asserting that the small private planes that go in and out of remote villages in Alaska are subject to the same screenings as airliners going in and out of major airports? I have no personal experience with that IN ALASKA, but I have been in and out of small private airfields in other states and there was no security theatre whatsoever.

The degree of security depends upon the airport and the type of operation being conducted. If you are flying with a Part 135 (air taxi) operator out of smaller airports, no, there is not much security. However, even the Part 141 (scheduled air carriers, i.e., airlines) fly into some surprisingly small airports. For example, Iliamna is off the road system, and IIRC, it does have airport security. Again, as I stated with the Bethel example, there is essentially no way in or out of Iliamna except by airplane. Furthermore, maybe you haven't been keeping tabs, but TSA has tried twice (so far) to expand the scope of airport security to include smaller operators and smaller airplanes. So far, there has been enough public outcry to prevent this, but then again, I never expected that we would see the crap we currently see at the airports.

The only precautions were to ensure that the person taking the plane out was the plane's owner. You didn't have to show a pilot's license and nobody cared who might be along for a ride.

If you are talking about non-commercial services, then yes, you are correct. In some cases, there is even less security than you mention. I own an airplane based at Merrill Field here in Anchorage, and the only thing you need to get in my airplane and fly away is the key to remove the prop lock (and a good deal of luck -- the Rotax 503 powering it is a cranky, temperamental POS). However, the myth that everyone in Alaska owns an airplane and/or has access to a private airplane is exactly that -- a myth. One in ten people here are pilots, but a good number of them don't own airplanes. A good number of those that do, don't own airplanes that are currently airworthy; it's expensive to own an airplane (mine isn't, for example).

Furthermore, if you think a private plane is an acceptable substitute for an airliner, then you have absolutely no idea of the scale of Alaska nor the difficulty of crossing the state in a small airplane. Summers up here are often rainy with low overcast skies. Couple that with the majority of the state covered with some really freaking huge mountain ranges (you do know that nine of the sixteen highest peaks in North America are in Alaska, don't you?), and it's not a trivial matter to cross the state in a small airplane. Filing IFR often isn't a possibility because of icing, even in the summer. In the winter, things are even more difficult due to limited daylight hours and extreme temperatures (most Cessnas aren't designed to fly at -20F or less, even though it *can* be done).

So if Alaska is anything like the other states I've lived in, it's perfectly possible for people living in outlying villages to hitch a ride to town and from there

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[shutdown -p now]

Doesn't give you the right to breathe, either.

Well, let's see: when you breathe, you thereby temporarily reduce the volume of atmospheric air in circulation. Given that air circulates freely across state borders, and cannot be meaningfully segregated into volumes belonging to some specific state, clearly, breathing is an act that has immediate consequences across the state border. For example, were somebody to sell bottled air in the neighboring state, you have just deprived them of some of their source material, raising the costs. Clearly, then, this is an interstate commerce issue, and, as such, falls under Congress jurisdiction under the Commerce Clause.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you.. but it isn't like we (American citizens) haven't been complicit. We have one party that is willing to say publicly that water boarding isn't torture. And on the other side, one that says Guantanamo Bay is wrong and should be closed, yet is unwilling to actually close it. And we have American citizens that either don't care, won't say anything, or at the very least won't vote these people out of office. There are no protests - not over Guantanamo, not over the TSA, not over much of anything.

When something goes wrong (say 9/11), people scream for more security... and they willingly give up their rights. And to get them back? Congress might hold slow, reasoned debates, without so much as a peep from the public.

They are holding hearings on the TSA now... I watched MTP, ThisWeek, and Fox News Sunday yesterday, and there wasn't so much as a mention of it.

And if you think it's just the media... then where are the protests of people concerned about their rights? Where were they the last 10 years?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[TheReaperD]

Given the rarity of any terrorist attack before the TSA existed I would say that it is far more reasonable for the TSA to have the burden of proof why they should be allowed to continue to exist.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anon-Admin]

So the question here is does Article 1 section 8 of the constitution trump the protections of the bill of rights?

by your reading, which I find way too broad, then the government could regulate the ownership of guns, bullets, wheat, bread, etc based on the concept that it may cross state lines and thus be "interstate commerce"

The relevant quote of Article 1 Section 8 is
"The Congress shall have Power"

"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To me that says that congress can regulate state to state commerce, not private commerce between two people or businesses in different states.

Besides, how is my buying a plane ticket at the local airport, paying at the local airport, paying state and federal taxes on the tickets at the local airport and getting on a plain for another state "commerce among the several States"?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[interval1066]

Oh, unless you're living in a dark cave we should all know now that the constitution is just an old, annoying piece of paper and congress is a pack of loony toons waiting for retirement while raiding any and all funds it can to get pork projects going, and vote selling. The gov. has completely ignored popular will for some time.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anon-Admin]

Prior to 1970 all airline pilots were armed, there was little to no airport security and no hijackings of airlines.

So, the whole TSA could be replaced by providing every pilot with a $395 revolver. Billions saved and no violation of the constitution.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Salgak1]

Actually, that's not technically correct. The hearing was on the constitutionality of regulations that may impact the First Amendment right of the free exercise of religion. Fluke was substituted the day before the hearing, and was excluded from it due to her lack of actual established expertise on First Amendment issues, and insufficient time to verify exactly what expertise a law school student would bring, the remaining witnesses all being established Constitutional Scholars. Instead, she testified to a Democratic Caucus meeting made to look like a real Congressional Testimony. Or, as they say in DC....."pure optics". It seems to have accomplished the intended purpose. . . .diverting the debate. Just as keeping Schneier out of the TSA heearing did....

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Lucractius]

As a citizen in a country recently forced to get the giant useless shiny boxes of security theater demanded by the USA on all incoming flights. (Australia)
And as someone who hopes to one day visit the USA without surrendering my life at the border and having my every movement watched like a dog you cant trust not to shit on the rug, watched just incase i "look funny" for a moment... just because i might (not planning on it, just referring to their statistical modeling that says 1 in every X thousand is %50 likely to be a terrorist prepared to push the button/pull the trigger) do something bad.

I cannot mod parent up enough (stupid lack of "+5 for the love of god do this"). Do your country and the world a favor and lean on them like a damn avalanche.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, as Ted Kennedy used to say, "We'll drive off that bridge when we come to it."

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Qzukk]

by your reading, which I find way too broad, then the government could regulate the ownership of guns, bullets, wheat, bread, etc based on the concept that it may cross state lines and thus be "interstate commerce"

According to the supreme court, if you grow guns in your backyard for your own personal use, then yes, they can be.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[CohibaVancouver]

Here we see that saying "I support the liberal side of this recent political issue" is +5 insightful, while saying "I support the conservative side of this recent political issue" is -1 Troll. Slashdot: some things never change.

Are you joking? Slashdot is largely libertarian, not "liberal" (in the 20th / 21st century sense of liberal, not in the classical sense). However, Slashdot is not socially conservative, but then neither or most "live and let live" libertarians.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[CohibaVancouver]

and no hijackings of airlines

I can't figure out if you're being sarcastic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings#1960s

That being said, I think the only thing the TSA should be searching for is bombs and guns. Everything else (sharps / baby formula / pictures of guns) should be allowed through. There's nothing a hijacker can do with a sharp any more.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[paulwye]

Thanks for the incredibly informative comment. The OPs topic is obviously critically important (and, speaking as a Canadian, just another item added to the long list of reasons we're collectively shaking our heads at your government, even if ours is not exactly a gem). But some of the technical background is incredibly interesting to me, as is the information about Alaska generally. I'm fascinated by almost every fact I learn about the state, and it's on my list of places to visit.

The thing that really jumped out at me, though: you have a Rotax-powered airplane that you fly (or flew) **in Alaska**? Aren't those things notoriously unreliable, even once you get them going? And isn't an unreliable plane in an incredibly unforgiving environment a bit of a scary prospect?

Cheers,

-Paul

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[element-o.p.]

I suppose I could have been a little more clear. Yes, I have a Rotax powered airplane, and yes, I have flown it around Alaska. The Rotax is a cranky, temperamental POS, but only when I'm trying to start it. Once running, mine, at least, has never missed a beat. The second caveat is that my airplane has a pretty good glide ratio -- much, much better than the Cessnas that I learned to fly in. Finally, the farthest I have flown *my* airplane is to Talkeetna, about 65 N.M. north of Anchorage. That's about a 1.5 - 2 hour trip in a Cessna, but I logged over three hours in my airplane on that trip.

As for the unforgiving environment...it is unforgiving, but I don't want to exaggerate the danger. There are some places where, if you crash, you are going to be in a world of hurt. The Alaska Range and the Brooks Range are great examples, and you have to cross the Alaska Range to get to the villages on the west coast I mentioned earlier. Merrill Pass, one of the gateways from southcentral Alaska where I live to the west coast is literally peppered with airplane wreckage. I flew that pass once, but on a day when the ceilings were 11,000 feet. Most pilots who get into trouble there do so on days when the weather is iffy. The problem is, you have to make a blind corner to enter the pass, which is really narrow. If the weather's good where you are at, but bad in the pass, you've got nowhere to go but into the clouds, and that's bad news in a narrow, almost vertical-walled canyon.

In other words, the flying is great here when the weather is good, but the weather can change quickly in some areas, and mountain flying introduces even more risk to the equation. Consequently, private airplanes are a common way to travel in the state, but it is unreliable, and a lot of routes simply aren't feasible without airlines due to the overall distance or the distance between possible fuel stops along your route.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[element-o.p.]

No, I just won't waste my time debating an issue with someone who ignores 99+% of what I said, and then says, "Thanks for conceding that the freedom to fly in and out of the villages...has not been impacted." Air taxi operators can shuttle you from one podunk village to another, but you aren't leaving rural Alaska without getting on an airliner (or spending a fortune hopping from one village to another until you reach either Fairbanks or Anchorage, where you are finally back on the road system...and still 5 days or more from the lower-48 by car.

I've been to some of these villages. Have you? Has Shavano? Do you understand what it takes to cross an 11,000 foot mountain range in a single-engine prop plane, 400 miles away from home, with your nearest fuel stop another 45 minutes behind you? Go to a map and look up Bethel. Look up Kotzebue. Look up Chevak. Then take a ruler and measure the *straight-line* distance between any one of those places and either Anchorage or Fairbanks. Then take that ruler and lay it on a map of the lower-48. Now imagine that some of the biggest mountains on the entire freaking continent are between you and your destination, and that there are very few places to stop and get gas if you ran into stronger-than-expected headwinds or if reroute due to weather. It's not impossible -- I've flown from Anchorage to Iliamna and Galena -- but it's not a trivial task, and it will cost considerably more than a ticket on Era Airlines to charter an air taxi flight. Meaning, no, Shavano isn't right. He's ignorant, at best, and what's worse, he's willfully remaining that way.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[pxc]

Yeah. It's always seemed to me that because Slashdot generally consists of an intelligent, well-educated readership (bullshit posts and nonsense traditions aside), they have inherited some liberal social views, but the engineering contingent here is too strong to allow anything but a very pragmatic sort of outlook, because of which Slashdot tends to leans toward more conservative attitudes about the nature of ideas and justification. The libertarian streak within /.ers I think is mostly rooted in a kind of skepticism toward policy.

But yeah. Slashdot definitely has an archetypal political outlook, but it's not one quite so simple as ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[sociocapitalist]

"...evil panel of old men trying to put a baby in every woman's uterus."

Where do I sign up?

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[pitje]

and here we see that liberal and conservative in America means something completely different to the rest of the world (at least the part I'm in).

To me, american democrats and republicans are all right-wing, the one just a little bit less so than the other

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[Asic Eng]

The issue before congress was whether the mandate was a potential violation of the rights of religious institutions.

The mandate in this case being about women's health issues. How does this translate into excluding women completely from the discussion? No matter where you stand on this: obviously women should have been given the chance to argue why their rights do not infringe on religious freedom of other people.

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[cusco]

I think you mean, "What does the Vatican have to do with it?"

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[snakeplissken]

Am I making a point here?!?

No,

The issue is whether contraceptives can be provided as part of private insurance plans that are themselves provided by employers. The 'free' bit doesn't come into it since most folk treat their employer health plan as being part of their remuneration, something they have earned. Since employers have an imbalance of power these days it is right to have a discussion on what exclusions such a health plan might make since otherwise unscrupulous employers will do the inevitable and cut back to save money. It becomes irrelevant if the motivation for said unscrupulousness is some heartfelt religious belief. The action still results in employees getting less for their labour, which is equivalent to getting less for their money. So, no 'free' about it.

Of course she was also talking about a friend who needed the hormone treatment to avoid losing an ovary, one would have thought that religious folk would be keen on women having fully functioning reproductive systems, but then the lady concerned is lesbian so maybe she doesn't count as a 'woman' to them.

Religious freedom is no more special than political freedom, if a state acts otherwise then that state has actually taken a position on the existent of a higher being; since their is no other reason to treat religion with greater respect than other statements of belief than if one thinks there is actual proof of it.

Note that this gives scientific evidentiary based statements about the world a greater credibility than religious/political/economic beliefs. Which is odd since it is evidentiary based science which seems so lacking in our great rulers machinations.

snake

Re:What kind of congress is that?

[T.E.D.]

A weird sentiment. If you'd been paying attention at all for the last 7 years, one thinks you would have noticed that the Republicans in Congress feel that constituents that don't believe the same as they do don't count. Their job is to help their national party, not pay attention to petty local concerns. Otherwise they wouldn't be voting unanimously for everything. Obama complaining about it would just make things worse, as he's the enemy, and thus anything he wants is automatically wrong.

There really is no way out of this situation as long as the current Republican party has control of a significant amount of Congress. For this situation to end, either the party has to change a lot, or there needs to be a lot less of it.

Figures

[Anonymous Coward]

The committee is controlled by neo-cons. They do not want to hear what is happening. They just want the APPEARANCE of such, esp. with the election around the corner.

Re:Figures

[dgatwood]

That would work... if the other party would field a competent candidate. Unfortunately, you get elections like California's recent senatorial race where a fair number of California Democrats (possibly even the majority) would have voted against Boxer, but the alternative was the woman whose leadership nearly bankrupted what by some standards is the largest computer company in the world....

Replacing one bad candidate with an even worse candidate solves nothing. The illusion of competition between the two major parties is no more relevant than the illusion of security that the TSA provides. It's all just a show to appease the proles.

Re:Figures

[element-o.p.]

Then don't vote for either of the two parties. Vote for a whacko third party -- Libertarian, Green, Communist even. Just send the message that "business as usual" doesn't cut it anymore. Even the worst third party can't screw things up any worse than the R/D's have.

Darrell Issa, the chair of the committee

[Presto Vivace]

is on Twitter @DarrellIssa Anyone so inclined could tweet the link to Schneier's blog.

Re:Darrell Issa, the chair of the committee

[McGruber]

is on Twitter @DarrellIssa Anyone so inclined could tweet the link to Schneier's blog.

And we could post the link here:

http://twitter.com/#!/darrellissa

Re:Darrell Issa, the chair of the committee

[HoppQ]

Ah, Darrell Issa, who denied women from testifying at a hearing concerning women's rights...

The terror threat is low

[Anonymous Coward]

If there truly were a population of evil doers who both wished harm on the US and were really willing to work toward that goal, we would have bus stop bombings, etc. in this country. There are tons of unsecured stuff that could be attacked here very easily.

The fact that such does not occur is proof that such a population is largely non-existent and certainly nowhere near being worth all the BS with the Terrorism Industrial Complex.

Re:The terror threat is low

[malilo]

You are exactly correct. I was on a boating trip with several couples whom I didn't know and people started complaining about TSA. One poor woman ventured her opinion "but I think it's all ok because it keeps us safe"... I pointed out that I could kill plenty of people by wedging a bit of metal into a commuter track. She gave me a horrified look along with "Why would you even think of that?", but I think I made my point.

The problem is, they've already got a huge chunk of the country, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, convinced that we are under constant threat of attack. (It's the lizard brain, I guess). So once they put in place checkpoints EVERYWHERE (which yes, is their plan, the fascisty fucks), it will actually be a bit harder to find the evidence you and I have both noted (once everything is surveilled, it will be hard to argue there's been no attacks because no one is trying). Also, I suspect violence would actually go up, as more people joined resistance/anti-fascist/terrorist groups in response to a crackdown. But I'm just speculating.

Re:The terror threat is low

[element-o.p.]

Yes, they are. Here are the citations for those so inclined:

NYPD wanting to run scanners on the streets of New York
TSA searching cars pulling up to the loading/unloading ramp at an airport
VIPR search in a train station
Another VIPR search at a train station
Stopping commercial vehicles on a highway in Arizona
Searches at a bus station

I'm sure there are more, but that should be enough to prove that no, the powers-that-be aren't limiting violations of the 4th Amendment to the airports.

Re:The terror threat is low

[runeghost]

From Gustave Gilbert's transcripts of his conversations with Herman Goering at Nuremberg:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Re:The terror threat is low

[steelfood]

Also, I suspect violence would actually go up, as more people joined resistance/anti-fascist/terrorist groups in response to a crackdown.

You're giving people too much credit:

- The people who object to such things and are not habitually violent have too much to lose to commit acts of violence.

- The people who likewise would object to such tactics and are likely to commit acts of violence are too busy committing acts of violence against their own neighbors, family, and friends.

- Everybody else wants the surveillance because they think it keeps them safe.

Sadly, the majority of the people fall into the latter category. The next largest category is the middle one. The former category is a very slim minority, e.g. most people here. There's a very, very tiny fourth category: the ones who are actually crazy enough to take action. But they're so small, they can easily be controlled via various means. Drug busts, tax evasion, copyright infringement, "hacking," etc. With neither the required monetary nor legal resources, they wouldn't last a second the moment they stick their heads out.

The worst there'll ever be is some minor protesting by wall street.

Re:The terror threat is low

[MozeeToby]

In any case, how does that stop someone from whipping up 5 lbs of thermite in their garage, looking up the train schedule online, and melting a 1m chunk out of the track? Bonus points if they can aim the derailment for some other secondary target. Oh wait, don't worry, we'll just monitor every meter of railroad that any train ever runs on. Stopping terrorism through searches and monitoring is impossible. There are tens of thousands of targets, hundreds of thousands of miles of infrastructure, and hundreds of millions of travelers. It just doesn't work, it's a waste of time, money, and effort. At least the warrantless wiretapping had a prayer of stopping terrorist activity, these endless checks are nothing more than, you guessed it, security theater.

Re:The terror threat is low

[MitchDev]

You wanna terrify Joe Aveerage American? Wander into the lines as they kill each other to get through the door at Black Friday sales with pipebombs full of nails and explosives. Blast some grocery stores while load of people are picking up food to feed their families. 9/11 was nothihng if you are looking to terrify citizens. Hit them where they live every day, nt high profile sites that most people would never even visit...

Well of course and shades of Mark Klein....

[sgt_doom]

...who also made himself available for testimoney before congress -- and was never called to testify -- after he blew the whistle on the NSA's installation of those Narus boxes at AT&T switches (throughout America, most probably and at IXPs or EPs, as well).

Re:Well of course and shades of Mark Klein....

[Anonymous Coward]

Anonymous for obvious reasons... Those magic spying boxes are deployed just about everywhere around the world, right at the communication hubs entering/exiting the country. I know, because I put some there

Facts vs Fiction

[BoRegardless]

Dictatorial government actions often start by "limiting voices", regardless of the country.

This is not a good omen for getting the best solutions for a critical issue.

The list of government witnesses in prior hearings were "officials" of various departments, meaning they are managers of employees.

Eliminating Bruce Schneier from the witness list means they really do NOT want any experts in front of the committee as that could bring up troubling "FACTS".

Re:Facts vs Fiction

[thomst]

BoRegardless warned:

Eliminating Bruce Schneier from the witness list means they really do NOT want any experts in front of the committee as that could bring up troubling "FACTS".

And this is surprising to you in what way?

This is a House committee, thus Republican-dominated, and Republicans have been pushing the FEAR button since ... well ... at least the Nixon administration. And especially so since 9/11 - which, you will recall, is what brought us the TSA in the first place.

Darrell Issa isn't interested in facts. He's interested in politics. People are becoming increasingly pissed at the thuggery of the TSA, so he's putting on hearings to show voters he's "concerned". He really isn't concerned, however. He just wants free publicity for the benefit of voters back home in Southern California. Like all members of the House, he's up for election again this year, and this circus is merely a mechanism to get his name and face in the news without him having to spend campaign funds. There will be no meaningful reforms as a result of his showboating, but the guy who made his fortune selling those damned obnoxious car alarms (that was Issa's own voice braying, "Stand away from the car!" on the "classic" Viper "warn away" system) that drive city dwellers to the brink of violence will wind up re-elected this November, and I guarantee you his campaign literature will trumpet how he "took on the TSA" over strip-searching grandmothers and babies.

Facts are beside the point.

Establishing a pattern here

[Kelson]

This is the same committee that wouldn't let any women testify in a hearing on contraception last month.

Apparently, if you know something about the topic at hand, they don't want your input.

Re:Establishing a pattern here

[hey!]

This isn't like jury selection. It's more like ... no it actually IS expert testimony.

I was on a jury recently, and it was everything you'd hope a jury to be. Serious debate. Called for evidence during deliberation to scrutinize. Sent intelligent questions to the judge about the law. Had long, but reasonable discussions. One was a domestic assault case, and there were several people in the medical profession and a prison guard on the jury. They used their experience in their decision but it wasn't taken as testimony. Agonized, agonized, agonized until finding the defendant not guilty.

Seriously, it was the best group deliberative process I'd ever taken part in, after almost thirty years in business.

Re:Establishing a pattern here

[Obfuscant]

The only area in which they left for any room for personal judgment was lie detection; that's pretty much all they wanted us for.

Yes, that's the job of the jury. You get to decide who is telling the truth and who is not, and whether the facts based on those truths support the charges as written in the law.

So when I told them I think some laws are unjust and would not be able to render a verdict I found sufficiently unjust,

That's not the job of the jury. That's the job of the courts. If a law is unjust, the finding that it is unjust should apply to ALL, not just a lucky defendant that happens to get you on the jury. It should be the defendent who takes the law to court and gets it overturned, which makes for a formal ruling that other defendants can use.

You wouldn't want the baliff pulling out his gun and shooting the defendant if the jury comes back with a verdict of guilt in a murder case, would you? That's not his job. The court reporter doesn't ask questions of the people who testify. The judge isn't supposed to ask questions of the defendant or witnesses, either. That's not their jobs.

If we want justice, we need to understand intention and apply reason to a situation, not mechanically apply a list of technicalities.

But if you have prejudged that a law is unjust and improper, then you are not worrying about intentions, you are applying a unilateral veto, in effect, to legislation passed by the elected representatives and signed by the executive branch. Yes, the courts are the overseers of that process, but not the juries in a criminal trial. The courts where laws themselves are judged are the place to get them overturned.

Intent should be part of the consideration. If you consider intent, then you have to be ready to apply the law if the intent was to commit the crime, and only say "not guilty" if the intent wasn't there -- or the actually didn't do it. Sometimes intent isn't important, or changes the charges but doesn't negate a crime.

If you say "I won't find anyone guilty of that law because I don't like it", then you are not doing your job as a jurur.

Re:Establishing a pattern here

[The Wild Norseman]

Educate yourself before spouting this nonsense.

Throughout the entire history of this country, taking from examples even before that, it has been firmly held that the jury is both the trier of fact as well as law, and that a jury is seen as a final check against governmental abuse.

You're also wrong in that judges certainly have the ability to ask questions themselves of defendants and witnesses and it used to be the case that jurors could as well. Jurors were allowed to and encouraged to take notes, but not much any more. Why? Because of the FUD that judges try to pull over on the populace and that attorneys are complicit in these days by claiming the nonsense that you're claiming now.

Re:Establishing a pattern here

[_Sharp'r_]

If you say "I won't find anyone guilty of that law because I don't like it", then you are not doing your job as a jurur.

No, if you say, "I won't find anyone guilty of that law because in this case it violates a higher law, the constitution." then you are simply doing your duty as a juror.

See STETTINIUS v. UNITED STATES and also pre-U.S. history to jury trials.

John Jay, the 1st Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court, stated that jurors possess “a right to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy.”

You don't think that the founders, who had just been criminally prosecuted by the British and protected by juries, expected the right to a jury trial to protect people from unjust laws?

During the American Revolution, juries regularly acquitted colonists convicted under British laws and before the Civil War, juries acquitted abolitionists and slaves accused of violating the Fugitive Slave Act.

If you are on a jury, you hold in your hands the responsibility to determine if the person in front of you should be punished by the State. Don't think you can evade that responsibility by saying you will leave it to the government to decide if the law is just or not.

Re:Establishing a pattern here

[man_ls]

"Not Guilty" exists because people did exactly what you're saying no juror should do. Prior to that, the choices were "proven" or "not proven" - with no possibility at all for "what provably happened does not deserve punishment".

It's a corruption of the entire history of trial by jury to suggest jurors shouldn't consider the justness of the law along with the facts of the case they're trying, and also is a grievous insult to the personal capacity of jurors.

"Perv scanners?"

[cpu6502]

That seems a little over-the-top. Sure it strips your clothes off your body, to display a naked gray image of your breasts and penis. Sure the guards have been caught asking particular gorgeous women to step through the machine multiple times. Sure some TSA agents have posted personal notes like "Get your freak on" in lady's luggage. Sure some of those images have been leaked by those same guards to the internet......

Never mind. I guess the description was apart afterall.

 

Re:"Perv scanners?"

[nfras]

That seems a little over-the-top. Sure it strips your clothes off your body, to display a naked gray image of your breasts and penis.

I was going to correct you and say you can't have breasts and a penis. And then I remembered where I was. Carry on.

Driving instead of flying: Good Luck with That!

[McGruber]

Since it is popular to post "Thanks to TSA, I now drive instead of flying", I will point out that the House and Senate are currently in a showdown that likely will result in a cutoff of federal highway funding.

Here is a CNN article about the situation: http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-21/politics/politics_congress-transportation-bill_1_committee-chairman-john-mica-highway-bill-senate-democrats

And a FoxNews article: http:/// www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/24/obama-urging-congress-to-end-transportation-standoff/

And a Politico article: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/74498.html

Re:Driving instead of flying: Good Luck with That!

[rahvin112]

Then how about they give all that gas money they are collecting to the states. Oh wait, that's what the bills for, to hand over to the states the money collected in the federal gas tax.

Though there is the slight problem that because they haven't raised the gas tax in 20 years that there isn't enough revenue in the highway trust fund (gas tax revenue) anymore to pay what's needed to keep the freeway system from falling apart but what do we care, with the baby boomers running things we don't have to care about infrastructure anymore! What's ironic is they could double the federal gas tax ($0.17) and no one would even notice at the pump and all that additional money flowing into construction would get the economy going again in pretty quick order.

It's been almost 4 years since the last highway funding bill expired (they've been doing 6 month extensions which doesn't give the states enough certainty in funding to do anything other than small maintenance jobs and now it's going to expire completely putting the rest of the construction workers and engineers who weren't on welfare and food stamps onto them. Every dollar spent on highways and roads puts $4 back into the economy. It's the single biggest economic stimulant the government has and it's been completely ignored for the last 4 years while we gave 700 billion to the banking industry to bail out their malfeasance.

Re:Driving instead of flying: Good Luck with That!

[cvtan]

That planned highway to Hawaii will be the first thing to be cut.

Re:Driving instead of flying: Good Luck with That!

[element-o.p.]

Not to mention this:
How do you drive anywhere from here?

If you've got a solution for travel for the 5,000 or so residents of this little town (or the more or less equivalent number of people in the surrounding communities -- and no, this is not unusual up here in Alaska), I'd love to hear about it. "Not driving" isn't a much better option for me either, although it is at least possible...it would just take my entire two weeks of leave getting anywhere I might want to go and back, with no time to actually do anything once I arrive. That makes at least a half million of us for whom "Just drive instead!" isn't a viable option.

This is perfectly consistent

[Anonymous Coward]

The purpose of this hearing is not to allow congress to learn hidden facts. It is to convince the public that congress is doing its job, and that its decision to continue funding the TSA and to continue allowing the TSA to perform warrantless invasive searches is the result of a well-scrutinized and carefully considered process.

Allowing Bruce to testify will not win hearts and minds.

Re:Utter Bullshit

[cpu6502]

I'd rather take the 1 in 1 billion risk of being blown-up in a plane, then the 1 in 100(?) odds of being Xray nude scanned or sexually groped by the government employee.

Bruce is a Superhero

[bigredradio]

http://www.schneierfacts.com

Re:Utter Bullshit

[sjames]

And after TSA took over, security at the airports was ineffective enough to let the shoe bomber and the underwear bomber through. Passengers stopped both. Bad government advice to air passengers allowed 9/11 to happen until on the last plane, passengers decided to ignore it and avert further disaster.

So it seems that the big difference is that airport supplied security was cheaper, less degrading and offensive and didn't molest children.

Re:Utter Bullshit

[Imrik]

The security provided now isn't any better. The only real improvements in security have been the cockpit doors and the passengers who won't allow a hijacking anymore, neither of which is because of the TSA.

Jury Nullification? No need to go that far...

[Ellis D. Tripp]

The last time I served jury duty, my job alone was enough to get me thrown off.

The case being considered was an automobile accident (with injuries), where the driver of the car was claiming that part of the steering/suspension had suddenly failed, causing his car to swerve out of control and hit the other car. There was planned to be a lot of expert testimony involving forensic engineers, metallurgists, etc. hired by the defense to back up the claim.

3 of us were thrown out by the prosecuting attorney during jury selection for having engineering or mechanical backgrounds. One machinist, one auto mechanic, and myself (electronics design). Apparently, if you know enough to possibly UNDERSTAND what the hired experts are trying to say, you have no place on the jury....

Re:Jury Nullification? No need to go that far...

[LordLimecat]

I think the idea is that they dont want you making assumptions about the evidence or facts of the case based on your evidence. For instance, your experience might tell you that it is very rare for such an automobile to have a suspension failure. But your expertise in that area hasnt been vetted by the court, and you might attempt to influence the other jurors with your informed guess in a way that would subvert the process.

Thats my thought, anyway.

Re:Utter Bullshit

[Jason Levine]

And this won't happen again because of two things:

1) Pre-911, a hijacking meant you sit down and stay quiet. The hijackers take over, fly the plane to Cuba (or some other location), make a big statement about some political cause and (after some political negotiations), everyone is set free. Inconvenient? Sure, but in general not life threatening if you sit down and be quiet. However, now if someone hijacks an airplane, everyone will assume they intend to kill everyone on-board. Thus, there is nothing to lose trying to violently overthrow the hijackers. Worst case scenario: Everyone still dies, but might derail the terrorists' plans. Best case scenario: The terrorists are foiled and some/all passengers survive.

2) The cockpit doors are sealed and reinforced so a terrorist can't get to the cockpit. So even if a terrorist takes over the passenger section *AND* if the passengers don't fight back, the pilots can land the plane to minimize the damage the terrorists can do.

Even without a single post-911 TSA "advancement", no terrorist will be able to replicate 9-11. (This isn't to say they can't kill more people, just that they can't repeat their previous performance.)

Re:TSA and DHS

[element-o.p.]

Sigh... THIS IS NOT A LEFT VS. RIGHT THING! THIS IS A GOVERNMENT VS. THE PEOPLE THING!

As long as the populace wants to blame a Republican or a Democrat, we won't see any change. Both Democrats AND Republicans are to blame for the mockery the U.S. has become since 9/11. They are two sides of the same coin. No matter which side is face up when the coin hits the table, you and I lose. It's time to vote EVERYBODY out of office and start over!

Re:TSA and DHS

[cpu6502]

The president cannot dissolve any agency created by the Laws passed by Congress. He cannot dissolve the FAA or HUD or DHS. It's his job to execute those laws. He COULD tell Janet Napolitano to stop acting like Big Brother though, since he is her boss.

When is the time right?

[Anonymous Coward]

When is the time right for us to arm ourselves and kick every one of these fucking criminals out of the elected offices they hold? I think the OWS thing should have been done in D.C. and they should have marched right into the capitol building and the white house. There's no way they could contain that size of group short of opening fire with live rounds.

Maybe when we see piles of dead US citizens that were once our brothers and sisters would we then WAKE THE FUCK UP. This country needs another revolution worse than Madonna needs to retire.

Who will lead us into the new revolution? Who would have real good ideas for fixing our broken democracy? I elect Neil deGrasse Tyson, and maybe Ron Paul could help as well.

Re:Utter Bullshit

[element-o.p.]

I get so tired of hearing this tripe.

9/11 didn't happen because TSA wasn't on duty yet. 9/11 happened because up until that point, the game went like this:
"Terrorist" hijacks an airplane
Everyone sits tight and does what they are told.
Airplane goes to Cuba (or wherever).
Everyone goes home a little shaken up, but unharmed after a nice vacation on a tropical island that very few Americans get to see any more.

That changed on 9/11, and we had already adjusted to the new playing field before the day was done. The new paradigm, and securing the cabin doors, were all that was necessary to ensure that there will NEVER be another 9/11. IMHO, if you really want to prevent another hijacking on an airliner, you'll scrap the TSA and just issue every passenger a Louisville Slugger when they board the airplane. The passengers have the greatest vested interest in the security; stop trying to disarm your greatest allies in the quest for secure airliners!

And even the argument I pose above begs the ultimate question in the so-called "War on Terror:" WTF were the 9/11 hijackers doing in the country in the first place?!?! If you *start* your security procedure in the airport, you've already screwed the pooch. IIRC, we had reason to believe at least some of the hijackers were bad actors long before they boarded the airplanes in 2001. They never should have been allowed to get to the airport to begin with.

Re:Kill 'em all and let Allah sort them out

[element-o.p.]

I've already petitioned my congresscritters and the Whitehouse as well as filing a complaint with TSA itself (no link for that). In addition, I have decided to boycott air travel until this nonsense stops, and I've started the blog that all these links point to so I can share information about what is going on at the airports. I'm not yet ready to take up arms and start an insurrection, but if you've got some constructive ideas that fall between what I've done so far (petitions, blogging, voting and hitting the airlines in the pocketbook) and armed rebellion, I'm all ears.

If, on the other hand, all you want to do is mouth off to people you disagree with, then kindly STFU, please.

Re:TSA and DHS

[Kell Bengal]

This is the first meaningful use of capslock I have ever seen on the internet. Good show.

Re:Was he going to say something new?

[TheGratefulNet]

to be on record, YES, that counts.

Re:TSA and DHS

[TheGratefulNet]

that won't fix things.

the system is broken.

if your computer is blowing a fuse, will replacing the fuse a 2nd and 3rd and 4th time in a row really do anything?

doing a chinese fire drill on the elected officials is not fixing the problem.

removing the money factor from office WILL fix the problem.

FOLLOW THE MONEY.

elections are not going to change a damned thing. they are like swapping fuses when the circuit is basically shorted out, downstream.

Oversight Theatre

[phoomp]

Does selective oversight into TSA security theatre equate to Oversight Theatre?

Game over

[PPH]

Its official. The monkeys are running the zoo.

No surprise..

[jcr]

In a related story, the congress is holding hearings on the magnificence of the emperor's clothing, and are excluding outspoken children from testifying.

-jcr

no

[publiclurker]

it was an evil panel of old men trying to put their ignorance into every woman's uterus.

Re:TSA and DHS

[Trogre]

^ This.

Remember, kids, so long as you uphold the two-party system you are voting for more of the same.

Consequently, and somewhat ironically, you are also throwing your vote away much more than those who vote for other parties.

911

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, as a country after 911 we said we don't care about our rights, just protect us from the terrorists. It's our own fault. Once you lose your liberty, it's hard to get it back. We might as well dismantle the Statue of Liberty, she doesn't stand for anything anymore.

Get someone better than schneier

[WaffleMonster]

I have nothing against the man but what does he really know about Airport security? All he would do is spout the same obvious general talking points just about any of us would. Better than nothing but far from ideal.

I would rather see a nuclear scientist talk about ALARA or one of those Isrealis who laughed at our foolishness or people who were violated by TSA or were easily able to circumvent its protections.

That he was axed at TSA request is inexcusable nontheless...I'll be sending my rep a letter expressing my concern this not be repeated in the future hearings.

Irony

[BobGregg]

How ironic that the very next story on Slashdot (and the one I read before this) was about Chinese censorship of speech the ruling party finds threatening to itself.

Religious rights

[KingSkippus]

Oh, make no mistake about it, it is a violation of the rights of religious institutions. I don't think that was ever in much question. The question is just how far do those rights extend? My religious rights, for example, do not give me the right to dictate your health care options. Why should it be any different for an employer dictating that an employee cannot have have contraceptive coverage for no incremental expense past what the coverage already costs?

That is why Sandra Fluke should have been allowed to testify in a panel regarding religious freedom. They had a panel made of people whose agenda is pushing that freedom as far as possible, even at the expense of the individual liberty of people like Sandra Fluke. Without her testimony, there was no one to say, "That's too far," and the panel--and the public--did not get a fair representation of the issue at hand.

Also, if you actually watch the panel, you will quickly see that it wasn't just about religious freedom. Every person who testified did so extensively about the issue of contraception. To pretend like contraception just happened to be an issue that came up is extremely dishonest and disingenuous. I for one do not believe that simply draping some issue in the mantle of religious freedom and not allowing any opposing viewpoints because, hey, it's not relevant to religious freedom, is not an acceptable way to debate.