Slashdot Mirror
Counterterrorism Agents Were Told They Could Suspend the Law
politkal writes "According to the FBI's internal inquiry on counterterrorism training, the FBI taught agents that the Bureau 'has the ability to bend or suspend the law to impinge on the freedoms of others;' that agents should 'never attempt to shake hands with an Asian;' that Arabs were 'prone to outbursts' of a 'Jekyll & Hyde' nature."
Even better: "That review, now complete, did not result in a single disciplinary action for any instructor. Nor did it mandate the retraining of any FBI agent exposed to what the Bureau concedes was inappropriate material. Nor did it look at any intelligence reports that might have been influenced by the training."
Seems about right. Business as usual.
Carry on.
Flame on.
they were right?
Hey, I made first post. What? What do you mean you've changed the law to make first posts illegal? That's ridiculous! You can't - what, you can't arrest me for
agents should 'never attempt to shake hands with an Asia
Christ. The racism I can cope with, but the sheer incompetence... how can these people have jobs?
The FBI has been a corrupt investigative agency since the 1960s when they would send their own agents into groups of protesters to start a fight in order to justify moving the police in to arrest and remove the "violent" protesters. They were called provokateurs, and in large demonstrations back then, activists were taught to surround them and then quickly beat the f*ck out of them and leave them in a puddle of their own blood, vomit, and broken bones.
These days, with cameras everywhere, they have to rely on other tactics, but they're just as dirty. It is no surprise the FBI trains agents to worry about the law later -- the law is sufficiently complex right now that it can be interpreted to allow just about anything. We're now shipping US citizens who have never been convicted of any crime, nor left the country, to jails in other countries where we torture them in ways that the Geneva convention bans as war crimes; We simply redefined the legal definition of war. The US has not fought a war in 30 years, under the existing definition.
The FBI, homeland security, and other agencies get away with this kind of abuse of its citizens because nobody stands up and fights back. Imagine how different things would be if that guy who decided to mace those students who were sitting, in a peaceful protest, was suddenly mobbed and reduced to a bloody pulp. In most countries, this is how police brutality is dealt with: The citizens literally mob the guy and sometimes police die as a result... and this is how the balance of power is maintained.
It is a radical position to take, but our founding fathers were right: The right to bear arms is meant to ensure that when you, as a citizen, see abuse of power, you grab your gun and blow the guy away. Mind you, I don't advocate violence except as an option of last resort... but if a friend, family member, or fellow protester is being beaten or about to be "disappeared" for excercising their lawful and constitutionally granted rights.... the Founding fathers were quite clear on what you should do: Stop them, by any means necessary. I don't know whether you should, or whether I would, but... it was the method used to secure our freedom from Britain and ensure civil liberties for almost 150 years so it is worth thinking about at least.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
From the article:
> Of the approximately 160,000 pages of training material reviewed, less than one percent contained factually inaccurate or imprecise information or used stereotypes
I say: let's occupy Quantico!
lucm, indeed.
it all makes sense once you realize that j edgar hoover was god and that the current fbi director is his pope
"Who watches the watchmen?"
The answer is apparently Donald Duck, Elmer Fudd, Archie Bunker, and the KKK
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
One of the primary reasons that the United States continues its descent into this strange dystopian corporate/security fascist state is because there are, almost without exception, no criminal or political repercussions for acts which are outside the realm of social norms. Black youths can be gunned down, drones can fly unrestricted, SWAT teams can invade and kill completely innocent people, bankers can steal/defraud trillions of dollars, whistleblowers are thrown in jail without trial for years, American citizens are executed at the sole and extra-judicial behest of the President, MPAA/RIAA-friendly treaties are negotiated in secret...
And on and on and on.
There are no repercussions for the actors in any of these cases. Here, the FBI says they can suspend the law because, well, who's going to stop them? Congress? Hardly. The President? Incredibly unlikely. The FBI, and most of the national security apparatus, is wholly safe from suffering any consequences to their actions, no matter how heinous they may be to the American public or the world at large.
Because they work for the government? I wish there was a better explanation, but that's pretty much it.
they probably don't, or at least not the same job or training contracts.
It might have been so farcically stupid that people in the training rightly realized it was asinine and didn't actually do anything from it either, hence the lack of a need for retraining.
Inevitably in life you will go to a training session where the person doing the teaching clearly has no clue what they're talking about, and sometimes it's easier to just write it off as a wasted venture than to try and argue the point or get a refund. This happens in technical training as much as social, business, security, safety or any other kind of training and I somehow doubt this is the first time the FBI has got a bad deal training people on something.
It depends how long ago all of this was, and what has happened since, but a lot of times you can't get your money back, since the person is out of business, or it would cost more in lawyer fees to recoup it.
And, sadly, there are racists in the US. The sooner you get used to dealing with that the better off you'll be. They're everywhere, even if there aren't a lot of them, you should have enough brains to know to ignore them. It's not like the FBI is training 5 year olds on racial profiling, these are adults who should have the brains to realize when information they're getting is batshit crazy, and the ones who think it's the greatest thing ever were racists already. By the time they get to the FBI they're long past the point of being able to influence their biases (or lack thereof) about people from a training session.
To avoid having Gov Moonbeam declare martial law.
Who watches the watchers? Wikileaks, and that is why the US government has been working so hard to discredit them, attack their leaders, and to shut them down.
Palm trees and 8
Obviously you do not work in or have significant experience in the private sector.
"terrorist" or "person of interest" or "enemy combatant" or some other new noun not explicitly defined in the books so that your rights are no longer valid and the gov't can do whatever they want under the false guise of security.
If these absolutely idiotic notions about people of other cultures and religions, or even the suggestion that an agent is above the law, have managed to reach the level of teaching doctrine at the FBI, we're fucked. Not because they have an institutional tendency toward violating our rights. That would be bad enough. But no. That such utter bullshit is embraced and taught there is an indicator of dangerous incompetence, not to mention ignorance. This our nation's elite law enforcement agency? Seriously? It's almost as if the average agent were educated in the Texas public school system. Now, I am scared, because these idiots are just too fucking stupid to do their jobs even half-right.
They were recently scolded by a Judge, for trying to imprison a group of supposed "terrorists" who were really just a rifle club:
"The prosecution is not free to roam at large â" to shift its theory of criminality so as to take advantage of each passing vicissitude of the trial,â Judge Victoria Roberts said. âoeIf the government now admits that the plan alleged in Count 1 of the indictment (seditious conspiracy) did not exist, then defendants must be acquitted," Roberts wrote in her 28-page ruling. "The governmentâ(TM)s case is built largely of circumstantial evidence. While this evidence could certainly lead a rational fact finder to conclude that âsomething fishyâ(TM) was going on, it does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that defendants reached a concrete agreement to forcibly oppose the U.S. government."
http://www.infowars.com/hutaree-acquitted-in-federal-terrorism-case/
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
I think you're reading this the wrong way. Asians usually do not shake hands, they bow.
Read it the other way around if you still don't understand. "Agents should never attempt to bow in front of an European."
And I endorse this message.
Oh, wait.
We can still blame the EEEVIL BOOOOSHITLER for this, right?
Not quite, business as usual for government problems that they can't stonewall shows a historical pattern of not simply ignoring the problem, but throwing more money, promotions and regulations at it. It isn't guaranteed, but it happens often enough to be called 'usual'. Incompetence and malice are both rewarded.
Somehow I doubt it. There are enough regular cops, prosecutors, rent-a-cops, politicians, and company directors who think they can bend the law because they are "special."
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
agents should 'never attempt to shake hands with an Asia
Christ. The racism I can cope with, but the sheer incompetence... how can these people have jobs?
What racism? That's just cultural sensitivity. Everybody knows you don't shake hands with the Asians, you bow to them. And serve green tea, not black tea. Gee, in Africa, you would shake your spear instead of shaking hands, for example.
Ezekiel 23:20
Sorry, but "batshit crazy" ideas should never have reached the level of teaching doctrine. It did, and that is completely inexcusable because it demonstrates, at best, an ineffective review process for the publication of that doctrine, and at worst, a frightening level of incompetence or outright malice throughout the institution. This is absolutely not the work of a few "bad apples".
Agent IS the law!
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
You are just as racist as the ones you work against.
Within 10 years all video evidence will be useless, for the simple reason that anyone will be able to render any sort of video. Want a video of the Prez free-basing with hookers? No problem. Want a video of the prosecutor and the judge having sex with a dead donkey? No problem.
Eventually, the standard of proof will fall back to "if you don't have at least 2 witnesses, forget it."
Let's call it what it is, Anti-Social Media.
I keep hearing all these horror stories about the pathetic state of our civil liberties.
My questions are as such: What can I do? Whom can I call, what can I sign, what sort of action can I take to fight this as a United States citizen?
Short of voting for Ron Paul in my state's upcoming primary.
The group "Asians" include a heck of a lot of cultures and countries. The only two that will typically bow are Koreans and Japanese. Good luck getting somebody from China to bow. Its like thinking all Canadians live in igloos.
He might be okay though.
Question: is he holding iced tea and a bag of skittles?
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
... since Congress could have put exceptions in the law for them, but did not.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
They are the new Gestapo.
Obviously you do not work in or have significant experience in the private sector.
Private sector is.... wait for it..... private. If a private company tells their 5 employees not to shake hands with Asians, that's on them.
But when the government does it? That's when there's a problem.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
My current definition of the "Good Guys" are those that know what the "Bad Guys" know, but don't do it.
Now I read that someone thinks that Tyranny is acceptable conduct for public servants? I believe that this person should wake up from their wet dream in prison.
I didn't know Al Sharpton visited /.
Welcome to the forum, your trolls and flames will be counter-trolled and counter-flamed in no discernable order.
Instead of a bonus driven board of directors?
Obviously, you've never had a serious medical condition.
Check your premises.
Maybe "shake hands" is a euphemism for "get involved in a land war"?
Not so much with the shaking spear, but I did get in trouble when I tried to shake hands in Ghana. As both I and the person I met were carrying luggage in our right hands, I extended my left. The left hand is often used in lieu of toilet paper, so that's an insult. The man understood my mistake, and explained it to me, but I was much more aware of my left hand for the next few months.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
The racism I can cope with
Spoken like somebody who appears at least to be in the racially privileged group, and doesn't have friends outside of that group. If you or somebody you knew well were vaguely Arab looking, the racism is not something you can cope with.
Also, there's an obvious Equal Protection problem.
I am officially gone from
Can't be to careful when it comes to bird flu.
Or the shaking hands things is just a cultural etiquette thing. My company has similar things in its overseas travel guide.
But, no, let's just assume racism because it's easier to rage than think.
Oh, is that the "revise broad plans to resolve budget problems as needed" panel?
I totally agree about the "Secretary shall determine" bit, though... I'd much rather my insurance coverage is determined by an MBA who measures success in dollars rather than a government official whose success is measured in lives, yep.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
They don't?!?!
Next you'll be telling me they don't say "aboot" or "eh" all the time.
foxtrot uniform, Slashtard
Obviously, you're using the "No true Scotsman" ploy by using the qualifier "serious medical condition".
As opposed to the bureaucrats inside of private health insurance companies whose decisions about the approval/denial of treatment is made purely for reasons of profit? Yeah, no one has ever been denied treatment and been harmed by private insurers. No, they are nothing but saints and angels.
After visiting Egypt, Jordan and Syria I came away with the feeling that the people I met there would literally give you the shirt off their backs if you needed it, but if you crossed them then it would be bad news.
While on my travels I got invited into many strangers homes and offered uncalled for but extremely gracious hospitality.
Yet at least one time, while in a hostel in Syria I seemed to be the instigator of a huge yelling outburst from a Syrian because he offered me a cup of tea and I absentmindedly waved him off because I was busy writing in my diary. Yes, it was my fault. I admit that I did not follow his social norms and I regret doing it, but the reaction was extreme. And while that may be one specific example after all my travels I came away feeling that this was not out of the ordinary.
So while I have no idea of the extent of the FBI training, I can understand the J&H comment - although probably would disagree with how the material was presented.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
The parent a few level up said that they can get away with incompetence because they work for the government and thus implied that government accepts incompetence and private sector doesn't. The GP answered "There are just as incompetent people on private sector". Now you're derailing it with "Sure, but it doesn't matter, because it's the private sector".
Sure, I (think I) understand the point: If someone wastes their own money, it's less important than if they waste taxpayer money. However, when someone says that "Government accepts competence, private sector doesn't" they're more or less implying "If we let private sector take care of things, they'll be done better than when we let the government take care of them". When someone refutes by saying that private sector is just as competent, they're implying that transferring stuff to private sector might not do any good because there are always incompetent people, no matter what the organization is.
After that, saying what you just said seems to be completely irrelevant.
I don't think you understand how "No true Scotsman" is supposed to be used.
Had you replied with a serious medical condition you've received treatment for, and the parent suggested that what you had wasn't *really* a serious medical condition since you were able to get treatment for it, then you could call him out on "Scotsman".
When studying my country's history and the bloody things done by the NKVD (and it's predecessors) I was always having this question: "How could that happen?". I simply couldn't believe so many people could simply serve Stalin and do all the violent things in such big scale (millions of victims.) The violence often highly exceeded what was required by the order. But then I found something close to an explanation of that by Philip Zimbardo in a TED talk. He argues that structures where people have a uniform, orders, hierarchy, power over others (like in this case when one can even cross the law's edges), and racism, seem to provide the grounds for violent behaior.
This is not news - at least that's what I learned from watching 24 & Jack Bauer.
What racism? That's just cultural sensitivity. Everybody knows you don't shake hands with the Asians, you bow to them
That's the equivalent of saying that Europeans only eat cheese and garlic and wear striped shirts and berets.
Not surprising in an age when Floridians may legally shoot unarmed teenagers.
I agree with you conceptually, but that's the same government that is training its members that the law does not apply to them.
Assuming you meant "lives saved" by "lives", rather than "ruined", "ended", "imprisoned", or something else.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
I think you missed the point, that the government may be dumb, but the private sector is plenty dumb too.
Takeaway: people are dumb.
Porquoi?
Well I, for one, am much more of other people's left hands now.
How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
Or that all Americans are obese gun fanatics.
Oh wait.
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
I was much more aware of my left hand for the next few months
".... if you know what I mean."
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
Disclaimer: I live in Mozambique
That is the correct assumption, yes... I meant something along the lines of "lives improved and lowered death rates, and approval ratings, and local economic growth, and several other metrics generally unrelated to the Secretary's personal finances" but that didn't fit the structure as well.
The FBI's apparent flaunting of the law may indeed be a problem, but I won't be quick to judge. This story is full of so much sensationalism that I doubt the entire thing. Not so much doubt the factual content - I'm sure that in the truckloads of training material the FBI has, some is inaccurate and offensive - but I doubt there was any malice. Quotes are given without context, and assertions are made without support. There's just not enough evidence of willful wrongdoing to make me particularly outraged.
In my opinion, a good outcome for this situation is that the FBI goes through and reviews all of their training procedures for offensive and inaccurate content. Statements that aren't perfectly clear should be revised. State that bending the law requires a judge's approval, even if the paperwork isn't perfectly in order. Clarify appropriate greetings by culture. Don't just make blanket statements.
Similarly, other organizations should do the same review. Let this be a lesson to us all, rather than an embarrassment for one organization.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
That's just the French you're talking about! There are plenty of other stereotypes specific to the other European nations.
http://www.acetonestudio.com
Mozambique
That's in Mexico, right?
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
>> Not surprising in an age when Floridians may legally shoot unarmed *dark-skinned* teenagers.
ftfy
Who says the government official isn't measured on cost? I'd argue they are probably more cost conscientious people than private sector... mainly because they are public figures and people will be nitpicking every cost they cause. I mean, have you seen the tremendous amount of information people collect on how much Obama's wife spends (of taxpayer money via use of Secret Service/Air Force/Food/Lodging) on vacation?
If the bureaucrat's salary was based on the amount of lives saved like the private sector (indirectly through return visits) then you may have a point... but the bureaucrat's sole concern is budget constraints and medical/drug costs from what I've been reading.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
I do so love my fat gun. Thank you Fleshlight (Made in the USA!). Any of you Iglooians up for some Chatroulette?
I've worked in two government offices and three private businesses. I can tell you that there is plenty of incompetence to go around. In fact, businesses are even more likely to successfully cover stuff up, since they have no duty to disclose at all. The government, at least in theory, must respond to FOI requests.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Dude. Look at the spelling.
It's in Canada, obviously. Quebec, I bet. Crazy Frenchies. You can't shake hands with 'em. They get all Jekyll-and-Hyde on your Anglophone ass.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
The point is that the private sector is full of incompetence too, and that bears out my experience. In fact, I found that government offices were more tightly run, with an eye on the bottom line. The private sector, however, seems to focus on making sales, and that is were most of the effort (and excellent) goes. Actually getting real work done can be ludicrous.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Having been to Scotland, I assume the argument revolves around getting really drunk.
Interesting to see that Obama supports overt racism like this.
malice
Almost everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person. I think you meant "incompetence or outright delusion throughout the institution." I would throw in group-think as well.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
I'd prefer it if they left the decision between me and my doctor....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
that goes to my last point, which is that some people are beyond saving by the time the FBI is training them.
THIS ^^^ is the real issue.
This sounds like the same kind of amateur information we used to get in the Navy right before we hit port somewhere. About half the time, what we were told was complete BS, though it was usually harmless. For instance: prior to hitting port in Athens we were advised that the outstretched palm was a curse in Greece, so we should never wave at anyone. To be sure, if the palm is held a certain way, and one's attitude is hostile, it can be an affront, but friendly Greeks smile and wave at each other just like everyone else.
Proverbs 21:19
That's not incompetence. It's like half-racist and half-progressive. Truth is, "gun fanatic, fat" Americans do shake hands vastly differently than most Asians.
Many Americans have death-grip handshakes, and most others (of all persuasions) fairly firm handshakes. Outside of the business sphere, most Asians (in Asia and first-generation in America) don't shake hands at all, and if they do it's really weak (in America this is considered girly, but it seems to me it's just uncomfortableness).
So for all we know, an FBI agent may actually do better not attempting to shake hands with some dude just off the boat from China (so to speak, but not really ;)
But this otherwise practical advice gets turned into a crass, stereotypic lesson when it becomes part of rote instruction.
There ARE some generalities one can associate with different races or types of people...otherwise, we'd not have them at all now, would we?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
John Carter of Mars doesn't watch you!
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The article makes no mention of when the training manuals were in effect. The comment in question, that the FBI could "bend or suspend the law," came from Robert Mueller, who was appointed by President Bush on September 4, 2001. The most recently-reported race-related scandal at the FBI (prior to this one) also took place during the Bush administration. Both scandals were revealed by Democratic Senator Dick Durbin, who has been investigating misconduct at the FBI for the past few years.
How on Earth did you connect this to Obama?
I'm an Asian, and I like to shake hands. My Indian friend does too, and he's Asian. Chinese/Japanese natives typically don't like shaking hands, but they also do it when they are in the USA. You know, when in Rome...
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Don't you see the "que" in there.. its near Quebec.
FTFY
Geez people....let's get all the facts in before we jump to conclusions, eh? There's more and more information coming out by the day on this.
And actually my question is..what race is Zimmerman? He doesn't look like a white guy to me...?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Ok, if the FBI really doesn't do this stuff any more, then Obama isn't to blame. However, if they do, then he is to blame, because he's their boss. Honestly, I'd be shocked if the FBI was really significantly changed between Bush's term and now. Obama has a habit of keeping Bush-era officials around, like Ed DeMarco.
The decision is currently between you, your doctor, and your insurance company. I guess you wish to keep it that way. You must either be rich enough to pay out-of-pocket or you have outstanding health insurance.
Perhaps you work in health insurance and health insurance profits benefit you. Yea, that's probably it.
actually the review process is central to the article and the FBI's response. They didn't have in place a centralized review system, which they are changing supposedly.
Where I am (a university) we have a business school that does for hire management training. You tell them what the topic is, they hire the right people to teach the topic for however long you want. There isn't necessarily a 'review' process there, since you're hiring people who you suppose are experts, I'm sure the same happens internally. You might review someones work diligently for a few years, but after 10 or 15 you figure they've been doing it this long, they can't have anything too wacky in there. The tenure system for professors is very much like that. You deeply review everything done to get tenure, but once they have it there's a lot more independence and freedom, and I'm sure the same is true in every business, if not as well formalized.
This demonstrates one of the fundamental problems of running government. Everyone gets outraged whenever something goes wrong, whether it was actually serious or not (and it's not clear how serious this actually was, which is a combination of what was said, how widely that was distributed, whether or not anyone took it seriously, and how much it cost). So governments spend huge amounts of time and money on accountability, they're going to have to pay several people to constantly review the training material for the whole organization, who are in turn going to need to be overseen by someone who is a political appointee. Sometimes it's better to just cut your losses and move on. Because now (or maybe this was the problem in the first place) some political hack is going to be deciding what is and isn't acceptable, and that will be in effect a patronage appointment you're going to get the kid of a rich party in power donor running it.
And why exactly do asians not shake hands with the white man, it is their culture after all.
I find your post stupid, mainly because my asian friends shake hands in business settings.
FTFY.,
That's just the French you're talking about! There are plenty of other stereotypes specific to the other European nations.
Bingo!
And do all Asians live in Japan and Korea?
Just how is that racism?? Asians don't shake hands they bow. So when in Asia never attempt to shake hands but bow. See how things get twisted when just a couple of words are left out?
Jack of all trades,master of none
In jest or not, I'm Asian and I find nothing remotely offensive about hand shaking.
If someone bowed to me, I'd be confused.
If each mistake being made is a new one, then progress is being made.
What racism? That's just cultural sensitivity. Everybody knows you don't shake hands with the Asians, you bow to them
That's the equivalent of saying that Europeans only eat cheese and garlic and wear striped shirts and berets.
Reminder to myself for next time: Always include the joke tag...
Ezekiel 23:20
Never ever ever bring a spear to a gun fight.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
You'd have a short fuse if you were treated the way the average person of arab descent is treated in most parts of the US too....
I believe African Americans, Hispanics, Italians and the Irish are also prone to have a "short fuse." In fact, pretty much anyone who's used to being in the social majority with minimal restrictions on freedom of expression tends to get a short fuse when marginalized.
Well, of course Mr. Agent they behave like this when you repeatedly insert your prostate probe and yell something gibberish similar to "Have you bin Laden yet!?" to their ear from behind. They try their best to stay cool and collected until they can no more.
"I'd prefer it if they left the decision between me and my doctor...."
Just to be coy, that translates to me as:
"I'd prefer it if they left the decision between someone who won't have to pay for something and the guy who wants to get paid...."
Arguably, the insurance company (or the government, in single-payer) is the ONLY party involved with enough information to make the proper decision about what level of care you receive.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
You mean Obama personally vets all training materials and instructors at the FBI? What happened to separation of powers?
Sure. Pay in cash, and that's how it will be. Can't pay in cash? Well according to some people you should just opt out of health.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
I doubt FBI counterterrorism are the government agents that will be making health care decisions.
It doesn't hurt to be nice.
Far better than the Death Panels of the insurance industry.
i take it you have never met arabs in any country in europe. your post is a bit ignorant. they have this behavior pretty much everywhere in the world you meet them. it's how they are. they're a feisty short-fused people. period.
Which just about every Universal Health Care system does. The US does not, unless you're able to pay with cash.
Obviously we must give up on government services, eliminate the FBI, and contract the entire security operation out to private industry, which will be strictly driven by costs and the need to efficiently generate a profit, thus ensuring that all taxpayer dollars are spent wisely.
-- Your Pals in the Security Industry
The private sector bureaucrat's salary isn't based on number of lives saved. It's on profits made to the company. Often that comes in the form of denying coverage.
Considering that bowing is prevalent in many Asian cultures, this may be reasonable advise? Shaking hands is regarded as an unsanitary habit in many Asian countries. Context?
It's best not to shake hands with any Canadian. You'll start saying 'eh' at the end of every sentence, and watching nothing but curling and hockey.
disclaimer: I'm a Canadian. Beware or be tainted :P
What is "batshit crazy" today may not have been 10, 15, 20, or 30 years ago.
Do the Chinese regularly shake hands as a part of their culture, though?
The FBI is part of the executive branch. He IS their boss and that IS separation of powers.
A Hispanic with a German name. Who woulda thought.
Yeah, and if that person doesn't keep their coverage with that company... less income - fewer profits. Whereas single provider... you don't have a choice. If the bureaucrat needs to cut funding because President Joe decides that the budget meeting didn't go well... tough shit.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
You're right: Obama has maintained way too many Bush-era policies, he has expanded others, and the remainder he has not challenged vigorously enough.
But bigotry, incompetence, criminality and right-wing authoritarianism bordering on fascism are nothing new at the FBI. It was a problem before Obama, and it will probably continue to be a problem after Obama.
Anyone can "Suspend" or bend the law. Lawyers and Judges do it all the time and they call it "interpretation" of the law.
The issue the FBI and anyone who uses the title a nobility like "Citizen" should be aware of though, is that there are always consequences for every action. Getting caught is an issue, dealing with those consequences is another.
We are back to an anarchy guys. Let's face it, if you are allied with the right people you have "more equal" rights then other people who are unfortunate to have placed their loyalties with allies who are less affluent or are bound by some sort of "unreasonable" moral principles.
The sad part is, with that type of attitude, we all get discharged from "civilization" into what John Locke referred to as "the wilderness" of modern times.
I think you are grossly underestimating the abundance of stupidity multiplied by the question squelching authoritarian nature of law enforcement organizations. Even the most farcical instruction is more likely to be assimilated as "truth" to a bunch of people that are already somewhat programmed to follow orders from authority without too many questions. Go ahead and read about the Milgram's experiment on obedience and judge for yourself.
Currently, I'm doing a W2 gig, and it comes with good insurance, but I prefer to work 1099 and do it the 'sane' way.
When working 1099...I pay my own way, I negotiate my rates.
With this, I get a high deductible (about $1200) medial insurance account...(and I have VERY HIGH Triglicerides, so yes, you can get them even as an at risk person)..to be used only for emergencies (heart failure, car wreck).
I max out a HSA I set up, which unlike a FSA it is not use it or lose it..it builds over years and you can invest funds and make money from it to grow it)....I put about $3K in there pre-tax....and use that for my routine medical needs, and low end procedures (I had to have a MRI and paid it myself out of it). Heck usually when I told the Dr's I was paying myself, they would knock off about 15% right off the top of the bill for me.
I think we should go back to the days before the bean counter middlemen drove up the cost of medicine. Insurance was called Major Medical...and only used for emergency needs. Routine care, you paid for (and nice if you can save for it pre-tax)...and since you were paying for it, you would shop around for your Dr......and prices were lower.
Once the HMO's stepped in and then more govt influence....that's when medical prices skyrocketed.
But yes...I'd rather have emergency coverage for, ahem...emergencies, and I can save and pay for routine annual meds and visits and such as needed. Decisions about my care should be made by me....and why shouldn't everyone put aside some money for their annual medical care, just like they save for gas, food, shelter...etc.?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Hmm...so, someone walking through a gated community, that did not look like they were a resident...is not suspicious?
I supposed if a white guy was walking through an all chinese neighborhood, that would not cause him to stand out like a sore thumb...and maybe make some of the residents wonder why he was there?
And...is someone from neighborhood watch...following someone that may be suspicious stalking? Is it justifiable for someone being followed to turn and attack someone walking behind them? It sounds like that's what you're saying....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
No, he said "obese gun fanatics", not "obese-gun fanatics"...
WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
Anyone who thinks that country with one or two partits has absolutely nothing to do with democratia does not live in real world ...
Yep, when you're a money lender (and I am), you put the government workers to the front of the line, except for newer teachers. They rarely lose their jobs and usually pay the bills.
I do have to say that I'm impressed at how much gross incompetence exists within government. That we arent all marching down the street with pitchforks and torches speaks volumes about our inability to care about the fact that these morons are picking our pockets and blowing the money, and then they'll all head home ten years before the rest of us to enjoy their fat pensions.
From what I remember of history, wasn't the USA formed so that people didn't have to bow in front of a European?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I think it was less about the bowing and more about the paying taxes and getting shoved into moronic wars with France.
Or maybe it was about host files or something? I've a feeling someone else will be along shortly to explain that.
Not only is that business as usual, but what they were teaching isn't necessarily incorrect. They can, and often do, get away with 'bending' the law (and Constitution). The 'cultural advice' is also often correct due to cultural taboos on hand shaking and against non-Muslims.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
If you read the expanded version of instructions given - "never talk to the arab woman before the man", "it's expected to have outbursts of temper" it becomes plausible that these racist comments might not have arisen from some assumption of genetic superiority, but from a desire to be culturally sensitive!! i.e. an attempt 'not' to be racist!
What this says about multiculturalism or anything else I'm too chicken to get into here on slashdot :)
snake
Like Albuquerque, right?
Are sure this wasn't taken from the backstory of the movie, "S.W.A.T."?
Why?
Are we sure this is not a cultural thing? AKA Asians do not naturally shake hands?
Or do they expect to get diseases or attacked?
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
Well, it's a bit of a dilemma, yes?
You can entrust it to government body which is highly bureaucratized and inefficient due to the sheer amount of red tape and incompetence, but at least it's indirectly responsible to everyone via the democratic process.
Or, you can entrust it to a private body which is highly efficient - at lining up their own pockets with your cash (since that's the ultimate goal of any business), regardless of what you wanted to be done, and with the only feedback being the ability to "vote with your wallet" (which, in a country where 1% of the citizens own over half of all wealth, effectively disenfranchises the other half).
If an insurance company drops covering somebody, it's because they were a net loss, so without them the company sees more profit. They dared to use the insurance group for its intended purpose: combining the resources of a group to care for an individual who needs it - and that means they took money from the pool where the company draws its profits.
If the government cuts funding, the solution is to be more efficient - scale back the non-essential treatments covered, lay off administrators, and beg for help from hospitals. Everybody still gets the care they need.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Perhaps that's a cultural thing. The article also mentions not staring at Asians (which I understand, since eye-contact means very different things in different cultures).
And did you really want to approach an Arab woman before approaching a male first?
This isn't racism, people, these are rules of thumb that look like they're attempting to help you establish relations, trust, whatever.
The rage thing I'm really not sure about. I have seen that effect in several people of Arab descent but have no idea how pervasive it is compared with other groups.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
disclaimer: I'm a Canadian
You've missed an "eh", liar.
5 (motivated and experienced) employes will spontaneously self-organise into an efficient team. 50,000 (motivated and experienced) employess is an entirely different ball game. The efficientcy of a large organisation has virtually nothing to do with government vs private control. Humans evolved to cope with groups of 1-200 individuals. The invention of agriculture 10K yrs ago changed all that and our wetware simply hasn't had time to properly adapt to the new social environment it created. As tool-makers we try and solve this by inventing yet more tools that are intended to map our 'new' society onto our tribal O/S, eg; religions, governments, corporations, and slashdot.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
If the government cuts funding, the solution is to be more efficient
You don't live in the US under our Government, do you?
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
What argument? There's no true Scotsman alive that needs an argument to get DRUNK laddie!
I'm betting they got Asians and Arabs mixed in their ignorant rant. The point in not shaking hands with an Arab is too general and rude. If an Arab extends his left hand though, the time to break his teeth is right then. They wipe their ass with the left hand, sans paper, the left hand shake is a supreme insult.
The Asian thing is a definite slur though.
If this is the documented mindset of the FBI, what about the rest of the three letter agencies? How far up the line do we have to purge? If this is the whole mindset, then we are just cattle raised by the powerful to increase their clout in the national market! The good guys are bad guys,the government is corrupt,the laws conflict and no one knows who has to obey what law, so why obey any? It's all fucking anarchy and it's gonna blow up the shithouse any second now! Gimme a damn beer and turn on the t.v.!
I'd prefer it if they left the decision between me and my doctor....
So you pay cash then?
Right, but this is somewhat different, in that the people involved are being given information that is obviously not true, and a minimum of exposure to the world makes it obvious it isn't true, and it's not a 'go profile people right now' or their immediate boss overseeing it. It's more of a powerpoint slide, which at the best of time aren't high impact.
The people who want to believe nonsense will still believe it, those who don't, still won't. The issue of what they are allowed to do is probably the more serious of the lot, because it plays into the movie fantasy that has been established in peoples heads since they were 5. The idea that you can bend the rules if they're getting in the way is pervasive in far more than law enforcement and is somewhat troublesome, but we do all recognize that government does have a habit of over regulating itself in an effort to keep itself from doing stupid things.
All the important ones.
The FBI is supposed to be the Federal Civil Agency and acting independently so they can investigate the other branches of the government when needed. So much for that.
JJ
I assume the argument starts once the drink runs out?
I agree with you conceptually, but that's the same government that is training its members that the law does not apply to them.
Assuming you meant "lives saved" by "lives", rather than "ruined", "ended", "imprisoned", or something else.
And big business is always law-abiding and ethical?
Yeah, and if that person doesn't keep their coverage with that company... less income - fewer profits.
That sounds lovely, but falls apart when business oligarchies develop. Once you have five or six large established companies in a business area, it becomes more efficient for them to squash smaller, honest companies, than for them to improve their customer support.
Yes, because ALL Asians hate to shake hands. There's a big difference between the generalities (We usually call that culture, not stereotypes) you're talking about, and the idiocy mentioned in this article.
Inevitably in life you will go to a training session where the person doing the teaching clearly has no clue what they're talking about, and sometimes it's easier to just write it off as a wasted venture than to try and argue the point or get a refund.
You obviously were in the same school district I was
Personally I think this is WONDERFUL advice, It just needs to be broadend. The following sign needs to be posted in every FBI field office:
"FBI agents should not attempt to shake hands with a:
Asia
North America
South America
Central America
Europe
Ociana
Antarctica
Attempting to find the hand of a contantent is a serious waste of time and resources."
of what the FBI could be, if we wanted it.
highly competent, highly educated, highly effective, highly efficient.
essentailly, people like Soufan, O'Neill, and others were on the track of al Qaeda in the 1990s and could probably have stopped at least part of 9/11 from happening, if they hadn't been blocked by the dysfunctional bureaucracy.
Actually, South Park taught me that when Asians are involved, I should shake my Enormous American Penis at them.
i dont recall an uniforms being used during the triangle trade of the 1600s-1800s. our own american version of 'mass atrocity'.
but i must admire the 'sciencey types' in their foray into social analysis. imho government can be treated somewhat like a science, like Aristotle tried to do in 'the politics', and data gathered and analyzed just like say, astronomy. the lack of experiment doesnt necessarily preclude the development and testing of theories.
there is an interesting book, 'Killing the Cranes', by Edward Girardet that describes the hyper-hospitality of the native Afghans. He contrasts it with the foreign fighters like Bin Ladin, who came to Afghanistan for jihad, and wouldn't shake his hand.
Another problem is that during the Soviet invasion, 2 million Afghans became refugees in Pakistan, living in tent cities with out links to their traditional village life. The ISI, the Saudi Mukhabarat, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda set up madrassas to brainwash vast numbers of youth to be like them - extremists. The USA of course gave them money mainly for bombs and missiles. There is a funny passage where Charlie Wilson cusses out Girardet for doing an investigation of the USAID school programs in the Soviet war days, and finding that a bunch of the schools were never built, had no teachers, etc etc etc. a lot of the money was just stolen / skimmed by corrupt officials. The donors like Wilson didn't bother to investigate very closely.
and now, some of the traditional hospitality has been replaced by extremism in some places in the country.
Every decision today must factor in costs, obviously. The theoretical difference between public and private health insurance is that private companies exist to concentrate money. They want to take the most money they can from you and pay the doctors as little as possible, in order to get the most profit. A public system has no interest in profits, but usually has ludicrously greater overhead. So, from an economic perspective, you only have to think about that difference. Is the increased overhead cheaper than the profits?
There are two other concerns, though. Bureaucracy is one of them. Governments are usually slower to process anything, which sucks when you need medical attention, because even when you can afford to wait without risking your life, the process is rendered incredibly uncomfortable by a disease. The other concern is vested interests. The second you start representing a net loss to a private health provider, they can simply stop paying for your expenses. Or come up with an irrelevant technical/legal recourse to why your contract should be terminated or that particular disease won't be covered. And what are your options? Fight them in court, which might take a few years that you probably won't have without treatment? Plus, how are you going to get the money to fight such a legal battle if you can't even afford your treatment? I know it sounds like FUD, but it does happen, and a lot. So that's a second consideration you have to ponder when thinking about health providers.
Me, I tend to favor the government, in both cases. For the same reason I wouldn't even think about privatizing the police, I prefer my health care being governmental. And that's while my government sucks, believe me. Proudly the world's worst in economic efficiency (greatest taxes, crappy HDI). I'm sure european citizens have it much better than I do.
Insurance was called Major Medical...and only used for emergency needs.
(Agreeing with you) Surprisingly, that is exactly how car insurance works today: it will give you money if you crash the car. That's it. Routine maintenance? That's your expense. Car insurance does not pay for oil changes, timing belt replacements, petrol fill-ups, new tires, etc.
Health insurance should also not pay for the equivalent.
The counter-argument: "A car is a thing, health is everything. If you make routine health cost money, then people will stop going to the routine visits." I suppose there is some truth to that argument; there will be some edges-of-the-Darwin-pool who value fiat currency over their health, and they will reproduce appropriately. Similarly, one could argue that if the insurance company does not bathe you and wipe your bottom, then you might stink, and smell. But nobody is making that argument, and in that light, doesn't the counter-argument seem a little bit more ridiculous?
Of course the other part of the argument is exactly as you stated: prices will go down when there's competition, so the foresighted people understand that the routine visits will cost much less. And eliminating middle-men from any transaction usually benefits everyone else involved in the transaction (except for some levels of volume, scale, and shipping, generally none of which apply to doctor's visits).
And the best part of your argument? People might spend some of their annual medical budget on reading up on things like Jin Shin Jyutsu and EFT which can be done in the privacy of one's home, by one's self, both of which help to heal the organism and prevent the need for modern medical treatments.
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
Yeah, and if that person doesn't keep their coverage with that company... less income - fewer profits.
That is less true in practice than you think. Many (most?) cases are such that the individual is provided coverage through their employer. In that case, the individual has little say in which insurance company they use. Sure, if the insurance is bad enough to cause enough complaints, the employer as a whole may switch providers, but it takes quite a bit to trigger that.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
malice
Almost everyone wants to think of themselves as a good person. I think you meant "incompetence or outright delusion throughout the institution." I would throw in group-think as well.
I believe OP was referring to Napolean Bonaparte's old quote: "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence." Putting it in context it is plain to see, emphasis mine:
[...] and at worst, a frightening level of incompetence or outright malice throughout the institution.
And of course, also, it matters not which of those are driving the behavior of the actor, when it is adversely affecting one -- it is still annoying and potentially deadly. (Regardless of how the actors think of themselves and their mission, and "the end justifies the means"; if they deprive even one citizen of liberty in the pursuit of their means then I would say they failed in their mission, which is driven by the Constitution.)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
When in Rome, roam? (if you want to)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
No, the USA was formed so that a bunch of religious wackos could practice their religion without the being burned at the stake.
Or if you mean, separated from Britain, then that was to stop paying taxes.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
If you don't perform routine maintenance on your car and the engine seizes up, your car insurance still won't pay out. If you don't perform routine maintenance on your body and your heart seizes up, your "major medical" policy would have to pay out.
Then there are the people that can't afford even the major medical policy or the routine maintenance. What do we do with them? Turn them away from the emergency room and let them die, or have the people that can pay pick up the tab like we do today? It seems like maybe helping them get routine maintenance might work out less expensive in the long run.
I certainly don't know the right answer, but I don't think it as simple as going back to the good old days, and I doubt those days were as good as people seem to think.
And now they just drag everyone else into wars with everyone around Europe.
As a Candian (west coast), I can confirm that the majority of Canadians DO say "eh" quite often (1-2 times a day on average). As for aboot, I only hear that when someone's looking for their *other* boot.
I'd think marketing alone would create greater private sector overhead than public sector then there's executive salaries, high than public sector workers especially with a CEO. Both need accountants but public would need less per covered person just based on not having to file taxes.
Funny, isn't it, how the white neighbourhood watch guy with a gun can get away with shooting someone to death on the grounds that "I felt threatened", whereas the black pedestrian fighting back against an armed man who was stalking him is a perfectly good reason for him to have been shot to death.
Presumably that teenager has just the same rights under the "stand your ground " laws as Zimmerman?
No, you are generalising, and not doing a very good job at being accurate.
It's like American Dad, except that this is the FBI. I would rather not think about what the guys at the CIA are told about. Probably something like, "The USA is the only civilized country and if you have torture and kill some sand people to protect it, that's ok. We do the paperwork later".
I only wish someone would have the balls and put the US government before the European Court of Human Rights or some other body.
There were other countries that thought of them self as the superior power and above laws. They were called the British Empire, the Rome Empire, and many before them.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
agents should 'never attempt to shake hands with an Asia
Christ. The racism I can cope with, but the sheer incompetence... how can these people have jobs?
It's not racism, it's culture, and the only incompetence is on the part of Spencer Ackerman, the Wired columnist who has his head up his ass.
Only a complete asshole goes to Japan and starts grabbing at people's hands. Learn how to bow properly and show respect, and they will then return the respect by reaching out for your hand as they know it's a sign of respect in our culture.
Only a complete dickhead goes to Saudi Arabia and speaks to the woman while her man is standing there. Fuck, you're going to piss off a lot of people in the good old USA if you start chatting up some bitch and ignore her husband.
From what I could get out of Spencer's story, it seems that this is just a case of a poorly written document being taken out of context. You can summ up the entire training manual as "Some simple rules which will help prevent you from making a complete asshole out of yourself while in various foreign cultures."
Go ahead, go to China as an undercover and see how long you last if you keep looking people in the eyes. Hint- not very long, because staring at people is a sign of authority and/or aggression to them.
Culture, not race. Learn the difference and you'll be treated a whole lot better next time you're on vacation in a foreign country.
Huh. I just assumed it was a silly attempt to guard against agents picking up (ASIAN) bird flu.
I assume the argument starts once the drink runs out?
There's a reason we have 115 distilleries here. :)
Or that all 'Murrikans are obese gun fanatics.
Oh wait.
FTFY.
Sanity.html - Error 404 not found
Wow, you really are clutching at straws.
First of all, no, this was a mixed race community with around 30% of the residents of black complexion.
Second: Just because someone "looks suspicious" is not an excuse to fucking stalk them. You call the cops or the community's uniformed security group, and let them take care of it. If I'm followed by someone in a uniform, I'm not going to assume they're going to attack me.
Third: We don't know who threw the first punch. What we do know is that Zimmerman was doing more than simply walking behind Martin. And we know Martin knew he was being followed, and that he felt threatened - not surprising, because Zimmerman was being threatening.
Ask yourself this: what, exactly, is the motive for Martin - who was peacefully walking home until the incident, talking to his girlfriend on the phone, who has no history of violent behavior (not that it'd matter much if he did) - fighting Zimmerman except self defense?
BTW, FWIW, the Zimmerman was "attacked" (ie Martin got the better of him) theory is beginning to fall apart: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/03/29/143481/george-zimmerman-shown-in-police.html
I do, and I also mail letters with the US Postal Service, which is a nice example of how efficient a government organization can be without partisan politics interfering. While the price of gas has gone up about 300% in the past 20 years, the price of mailing a letter (the USPS's primary source of funding) has gone up a whopping 55%.
The USPS now faces a budget crisis because Congress dropped 75 years of employee benefit funding on the organization, due in a span of only 10 years. This was, of course, the result of Congress's politicking.
When government organizations are insulated from the whims of politics, they can be very efficient. A national healthcare plan, managed by HHS, would likely still suffer from the backstabbing of its next political opponent, but a good leader can reduce the impact of such backstabbing on the public. That's why there are so many "Secretary shall determine" clauses, to give the administrator the ability to work around the idiocy brought on by politics.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
For routine visits and maintenance? Sure...sometimes cash, or check...most Dr's offices will take a CC. I use the CC that is attached to my HSA, which I sock away the max annually pre-tax, for my routine things.
In my post earlier in this thread, you see I have this coupled with a high deductible insurance policy ($1200) to be used only for emergencies....
I save to pay for food, housing, car maintenance and insurance...etc. Why should I not save part of my income towards my health?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Err...I hardly think Zimmerman is a 'white guy'....he certainly doesn't look it.
Also, no, you can't shoot someone in FL just for being threatened...but you can shoot them in self defense, which is a different matter. If you're being attacked, you can use lethal force to defend yourself....but not for just feeling threatened.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I also mail letters with the US Postal Service, which is a nice example of how efficient a government organization can be without partisan politics interfering.
The USPS now faces a budget crisis because Congress dropped 75 years of employee benefit funding on the organization, due in a span of only 10 years
You see how these contradict and back up my point, don't you? Do you think any government program is going to be different?
Even after proposing to close 3,700 offices over the next year, the U.S. postal service has a $9.2 billion deficit and is near a default.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/09/do-we-need-the-postal-service/
But you blame it on the same government that you want to run insurance? You do see the hypocrisy in that, don't you? Are you trying to support my point that government run services are no better (in fact, in this case worse) than private sector? Politics can just as easily kill a business as a CEO. And don't even get started saying that Healthcare is failing in the private sector. It's arguably one of the most regulated (ie: ah, those politics again) sectors of industry today.
You can go back 10 years and find out why it's failing... hard. And of course, they don't consider themselves accountable for any of that. That's definitely what I want my life entrusted to... and since we are on the USPS: Why is it that UPS and FedEx are doing so well? Is it because the USPS cannot deliver packages? No. They deliver packages. What must it be then? Efficiency? Customer Service? Reliability? What is the USPS failing on so hard that it can't compete with these private companies? I think the CATO report sums it nicely: "the Postal Service decided to improve mail service by delaying letter delivery" They delay. So let's push our healthcare under that same "efficient" system. Let's just say, "Hold on sir, we'll get you that heart... when we are damn well ready."
Yeah, let's keep stamp prices artificially low. It makes them look good. (whopping 55%...)
So what about that USPS? Do we still need it?
“Heck, the only thing I need a physical mailing address for these days is to get physical packages from Amazon, UPS and FedEx do just fine and do it with lower labor costs (53% of its expenses for UPS, 32% for FedEx compared with 80% with the USPS)—the private delivery services just run more efficiently as a business,” Chan writes.
From 2008 to 2010, sales revenue in the mailing industry, which includes private mailers and printing companies, grew by 10 percent to $1.1 trillion and increased jobs by 16 percent.
Yes, spam ... spam is saving the USPS. Not efficiency.
So... why is it that:
Postal services in the Netherlands and Germany have been privatized...
And about those markups. Since you cherry picked a single (highly regulated) business that's failed you, let me point out a few government programs that have/are failing as well: ...
Cash for Clunkers
Fannie Mae
Freddie Mac
TARP
Heck, there was just an article the other day about Solar Energy in America and how it's being exploited by China
More devastating than direct efficiency comparisons is the tendency for government to eventually bankrupt everything it manages, including itself. Amtrak, the Postal Service, Social Security, Medicare, Fannie and Freddie, FHA, FDIC, FSLIC, Student Loans, etc. are some examples.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/12/government_gone_wild.html
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
Thanks for dredging up the quote I couldn't put my finger on. :) And yes, I'd like to consider that it's just incompetence, but let's face it, the religious right swings a lot of clout in certain circles, and I consider it wholly within the the realm of possibility that a core of zealots within the FBI are responsible for this travesty.
that's odd. incompetence is something i have to cope with on a daily basis, but racism is something that i don't. i have found that taking a stand against incompetence will only get you fired, while taking a stand against racism is the only good choice to make.
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
And if you're getting your insurance through your company, like some 80% of people in this country do? Are you not in the same fucking boat? You don't have a choice on who your provider is there, either.
You can bitch and moan about government all you want, but the fact of the matter is, we have several examples of Universal Health Care in the world that are working extremely fucking well. We don't have any examples of the shitty US system working at all.
You could always get your healthcare from the insurance company directly. That's always been an option. You do not HAVE to use your company provided package.
Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
"Agents should never attempt to bow in front of an European."
Right. Because then we'll clobber him in the head and run away with his wallet.
It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
TL;DR: You utterly missed the point of the example, and don't understand how the USPS functions. Your sources are even more egregious examples of cherry-picking.
Let's review the facts of a specifically-appropriate example. The USPS has turned a profit consistently with the exception of a huge Congress-mandated payout. Yes, there are customer complaints and lost packages. Yes, occasionally increasing efficiency means slowing down mail service to accommodate smoother routing. To look at any single quality as an indicator of success or failure, like the apparent deficit, list of complaints, or the delivery speed between two counties is as just as naive as claiming that all government is perfect all the time.
With that in mind, let's review a few specific points you make:
But you blame it on the same government that you want to run insurance?
Yes. It's also the same government that put a man on the moon, funds research, executes falsely-convicted prisoners, invades other countries, and does many other things, all under separate branches, each with distinct motivations, responsibilities, and management. There is no hypocrisy in seeing that the United States government can do two entirely separate things with two entirely separate branches and have two entirely separate outcomes. The USPS made a profit efficiently, and Congress added expenses.
And don't even get started saying that Healthcare is failing in the private sector.
Healthcare is failing in the private sector. The biggest issue is the cost of care. Doctors and nurses have to be paid, and supplies need to be refilled. Under the current entirely-private system, a hospital has no idea if an incoming patient will end up costing them millions of dollars that won't ever be repaid. To mitigate the risk of that gamble, rates for all services are raised to ensure that the hospital will break even on its expenses, and maybe even turn a profit.
Then, of course, there's the trouble of dealing with insurance companies. The mandated move to standard transports has done little to ease the pain of working with hundreds of providers, each of which has their particular system for handling claims. The proposed system allows (or at least did in one draft... I don't think the provision survived politics) hospitals to deal with a single endpoint, that will pass claims on to any providers involved.
Why is it that UPS and FedEx are doing so well? Is it because the USPS cannot deliver packages?
No, it's because UPS and FedEx provide a premium service for a premium price. As I recall from my days in manufacturing (which is several years ago), FedEx's handling is better, because they've made that a priority. UPS was faster for many places in the country, because they'd optimized their distribution for speed. They fill market needs that aren't in the USPS's priorities, just as private insurance providers could do under the proposed system. You could still get additional insurance to cover your car-racing accident injuries.
They delay. So let's push our healthcare under that same "efficient" system. Let's just say, "Hold on sir, we'll get you that heart... when we are damn well ready."
They also process almost every letter through an automatic sorter. I don't suggest processing human hearts through a sorting machine, and I don't suggest delays, either. The delay led to more cost-effective service, with little decline in quality. I'd expect an insurance provider (any insurance provider) to do the same: Provide a level of service that's adequate while minimizing costs. For example, don't cover elective surgeries that make my rates go up.
"...labor costs (53% of its expenses for UPS, 32% for FedEx compared with 80% with the USPS)"
That
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Maybe "shake hands" is a euphemism for "get involved in a land war"?
And the Sicilians fit into this, how, exactly?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
FTFY
Geez people....let's get all the facts in before we jump to conclusions, eh? There's more and more information coming out by the day on this.
And actually my question is..what race is Zimmerman? He doesn't look like a white guy to me...?
Well, he shur ain't no kinda nigger you never seen, an that's good enuff fer you!
I found the last one particularly interesting, as it comes from a right-wing website
... but it's perfectly okay for you to post a left-wing website like thinkprogress.org? Hypocrite much? You can't take criticism... just like every other liberal asshat I've met.
Except you're not going to be paid any more for doing so. And the insurance company direct is far more expensive, and subject to far more problems regarding loss of coverage.
And if you have a pre-existing condition, then until the ACA was signed into law, you COULD NOT GET COVERAGE. You were forced to go with the company insurance (or not have it at all, which for someone who has a pre-existing condition, is not an option whatsoever).
You're welcome. I really like that I don't need to dig into the offender's mind: regardless of whether it's malice or incompetence, it can be demonstrated that the behavior is injurious (either to a boss, or another appropriate authority), which can help to stop the behavior. Once I'm no longer being injured, I really don't care what's in the offender's head.
It's not just the FBI. Most of our government is now unconstitutional. (Yes, I just made that up; perhaps it's not "most" but when every citizen commits three felonies per day simply by going about their business (see the book, "Three Felonies a Day"), then the legal system is corrupt. "The legal system" includes most areas of government, which is why I made the statement that way; I have not calculated all areas of government and determined that 51% or more is unconstitutional, so there is a gap in my argument.)
I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.