Slashdot Mirror
Reddit Subpoenaed In Wrongful Death Lawsuit
redletterdave writes "In March, a 51-year-old Reddit user named 'Black Visions' wrote his last post on Reddit. He had been writing frequently about depression and suicide, but in his last post where he also threatened his own suicide, others decided to egg him on even further. That turned out to the be the last straw: Seattle news soon reported Jerry had jumped eight stories from a hotel room in the Double Tree in Tukwila, Washington. Reddit announced on Wednesday that the user's sister Sandy has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against nine Reddit users who egged him on, and Reddit has also been subpoenaed in identifying the information of another three individuals."
The people involved did a despicable thing. But I can't see how it's any more illegal than someone shouting "Jump!" at someone on a roof top when emergency services are trying to talk them down.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
On the internet, nobody knows if you are who you say you are. You could really be a depressed person, or you could be a 7 line perl script. You could be talking to a real 15 year old girl, or it could be an FBI agent. Then there's products like Siri, cleverbot, etc., that blur the line even further. But even if that problem could be 'solved', there is no way to know whether an internet identity is a single person or a group.
So given that identity is not provable online, why should people act like it is? Also, if you don't mod this post +5, I'm going to hang myself with a power cord.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
This is a really sad story.
I have to ask the question, even though it just feels wrong. Yeah, I know the old saying "If you have to ask, its probably illegal" might apply here.
Is it illegal to tell someone to commit suicide?
Dude was drama-queening on the interwebs, some assholes got their kicks poking the quivering blob of uselessness and then he killed himself. This is no different than assholes in a crowd on the street shouting "jump" at a person on a ledge. There is zero rational argument that the assholes had anything at all to do with the death. But good luck in yer quest for deep pockets, sister of dead guy. You'll come out with squat, plus lawyers' fees.
Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
That's why /b/ doesn't keep a record of its posts - by the time a family member would react to something like this, the post would already be gone. And even then, the people are posting as anonymous anyway.
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Where was she when he was posting? Blame everyone else, but you're absolved through willful ignorance?
It's unfortunate he did that, but you can't stop human nature. Bullying and/or being a bully is something that each and every person must learn to deal with. If its a child, then it's the parents job to teach them how to ocntend with it, or if the child is too young to learn that yet, then the parent should be near by to protect the child.
In this case we are talking about an adult, who is responsible for his own action.
Personally I am tired of all these lawsuits of people wanting to blame somebody else. The courts should throw that case right out..
You know it crossed your mind. Don't lie.
The article cites a user-made post, not an official statement by reddit. Multiple people on reddit, including comments on the cited SubredditDrama post, have pointed out that there is no hard evidence that
-Black Visions killed himself
-Sister of Black Visions is actually Black Vision's sister
-That there is any subpoena or legal action being pursued
Get back to me after there's real evidence of any of those things.
His final posts can be read on http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qoixk/a_lot_of_trolls_tonight/ Looking through it I get the sense that people were trying to reach out and tried to persuade him from killing himself. TFA makes it sound as though everyone was cheering him on. Those few who trolled got severely downvoted. I can't see how reddit nor its users are in any way responsible for his death. Rather seems like his family is out to find a scapegoat. Where were they when he needed help and support?
For those who don't know, the Men's Rights subreddit is full of people who think that anybody who identifies as a feminist wants to take away rights from men. In general, the men's rights subreddit is all about asking the question, "but what about men?" when an issue primarily pertaining to women (like birth control, rape, etc.) comes up.
There is also a significant contingent who is there for advice when they get divorced, in order to get the most and/or lose the least from the divorce.
It is pretty much a terrible place.
First off there is no official announcement from Reddit that they received subpoenas or not, all we have is a bunch of posts from random strangers. Second, subpoenas would be handled by the lawyers office directly. Third, the lawyer would have informed the family to stay off the website and not post a warning about upcoming subpoenas because it gives time for those who made the comments to clean up their trail.
Additionally, some people have taken the time to poke holes into the story of the poster and of the "apparent" suicide.
http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/s60bw/a_month_ago_a_suicidal_redditor_left_his_final/c4bdfhy
And this isn't the first time someone has tried to pull a fast one on reddit
http://www.urlesque.com/2011/03/10/gawker-adrian-chen-cancer-lucidending/
There's a difference between not doing anything and intentionally making a medical condition worse.
If you're having a severe asthma attack on the street, the decent thing for me to do would be to call an ambulance. Just walking on by is not decent, but it's also not a crime (unless I'm a medical provider). But blowing cigar smoke in your face hoping that I can make your condition worse so that you keel over? That's different.
Clearly you don't suffer from clinical depression. It's a whole different reality from the common human experience. Under such a condition you can easily loose your free will to a great roaring abyss that you clearly don't understand and I hope you never do. That's why people like this need help and are easily coerced into yet darker and colder places. He didn't jump. He was pushed by the growing darkness consuming his mind, rational thought, and free will.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Not posting AC because I'm a real man.
Now that was just rude. I'm going to kill myself and then sue you for it.
It looks like the guy being sued (AlyoshaV) simply didn't read the post till the end (where the suicide note was), and commented on partial post with some stupid joke.
Had he read the post till the end, the suit could be avoided (probably not the suicide).
This should be an important message to all slashdotters: always read all posts in their entirety before commenting. Always RTFA thoroughly till the very end, or you could be the next murderer.
If this poor fellow was actually pushed over the brink by a few reddit comments, he was standing awfully close to it. I don't think the commentators should be held culpable since a normal person wouldn't be fazed by such things. Outright harrassment or threats aside, legislating human interaction on that level would be too subjective.
Emotions! In your brain!
If people are free to be an asshole and egg somebody to kill themselves, then that guy's sister is just as free to be an asshole and sue people
And the judge is free to be an asshole and make an asshole decision about the case, which lead to more opportunities for people to be free to be assholes
Why would you want to throw out the case and prevent so many people from being assholes? Man, you're an asshole
Klerck wants his movie plot back!
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
What proof, beyond reasonable doubt, is there that he would not have jumped if those people wouldn't have egged him on? If just a few people wriitng mean things on an Internet forum would cause people to jump from buildings, the Internet would be the primary cause of death and facebook would have been sued bankrupt a long time ago. Unless there is irrefutable proof that these posts have a direct significant relation to the death of this person, there is no damage to be claimed.
People get depressed and take their own lives. in the majority of cases suicide happens, external circumstances may be triggers for already predetermined actions and behavior, but are not a cause. This is a part of life, it's a natural reaction to a chemical imbalance, caused by a variation of things. It could be stress, it could be hereditary, it could be a reaction to hormone imbalances (both mother and fetus) during pregnancy and childhood and it could be due to physical trauma or illness. The vast majority of suicide attempts happen anyway and the circumstances merely act as a vehicle, if they even have any influence at all.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
Comments on Reddit point out that
-- This has happened before in other places with a fake sister
-- the suicide was committed by jumping off a building, while the user threatened to commit suicide by shooting himself
-- the suicide happened several days after the nasty replies were deleted
-- the user's real name was supposedly Jerry, but the name of the man who killed himself was William.
Furthermore, carefully reading the Reddit link itself, Reddit has not received a subpoena. Rather, Reddit has been *told by the supposed sister of the user* that they *will be subpoenaed* in the future; at no point does Reddit claim to have actually received the subpoena. As a bonus, the man's supposed sister claims "We were told by our lawyer not to give any other information out such as our full names or the people to be named in the lawsuit", which makes her claims immune to verification.
It's quite likely that some troll saw a suicide in the newspaper and decided to claim that the suicide was connected when they were really just trolling. Ruling that out would require having the subpoena, not just having a claim that one was sent.
Asthama is a physical condition. Laws deal with physical harm, not mental harm to adults. No one cares about anyone's feelings and the law shouldn't care either. Adults are expected to take care of their own brains.
Then why was he allowed on the Internet at all if he wasn't in possession of his senses? If you enter a place where regular adults are interacting, they're going to treat you like an adult as well. And that includes being responsible for your actions.
If this guy was clinically unable to take responsibility, he should either be in a mental hospital, or in the care of guardians who don't allow him access to the Internet.
That guy's sister can certainly start that case, but while everybody's right to be an asshole is supposed to be Constitutionally protected, the judge is supposed to protect that very Constitution that protects assholes' rights.
Today you hear all about 'activist judges', but whoever says it means something else altogether. An activist judge, is a judge who chooses NOT to uphold and protect the Constitution, but chooses instead to act against the letter and/or the spirit of that law.
A judge is NOT an activist judge for upholding the Constitution, and if this means striking a law down that is unconstitutional, then it's his authority and responsibility to uphold the Constitution and take down that law.
But of-course people love to muddy the water and redefine what words mean, it's double plus good in their mind, that they do it with impunity (for now).
You can't handle the truth.
Hah, there's a Turing Test joke in here somewhere, I'm just no that clever....
Go!
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising...kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I'm doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan's little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: 'There's gonna be a joke comin' up.' There's no fuckin' joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself...borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something...rid the world of your evil fuckin' presence. -- Bill Hicks
Thank goodness Bill isn't around to see this sad shit...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Incredible. A guy named wjcofkc knows a guy named black_visions and has information (which would be illegal, assuming black_visions did not give it to him) regarding his medical diagnosis.
Do yourself a favor, step back, and get real. Depression is an awful thing, but this isn't an NYT article. There isn't even any resource of information to debate over, unless you want to argue the validity of some internet users' comments on a random suicide. Get off the soapbox.
Nobody should expect any more than this from the site that Reddit has become. I mean, this was a site that for as long as possible allowed child predators and pedophiles to run amok with no regulation or oversight, and then only did something about it when it threatened to become a public relations nightmare. They still allow subreddits about disgusting material to operate in that manner, including one glorifying pictures of dead children.
Read the comments on there and you'll regularly find people defending the indefensible, and basically living up to that Penny Arcade "total fuckwad" theory from a while back. There are many redeeming qualities about the site, including being an overall fine news aggregator, but the community itself is something which reflects more negatively than positively on it. In many respects, it's worse than 4chan.
So, honestly, it doesn't surprise me at all to find that there are a great deal of people there who would do this. Even if the post itself is a hoax, the bullying wasn't, and that should be primarily what the discussion is about on all of this.
Free will, mutha-fscker, ever heard of it?
Sure. I've heard of unicorns and leprechauns too.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
If I'm remembering right, you can make a Reddit username by supplying the desired name and a password. Good luck attaching that to an individual person.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
"Now, when you are in the military and your commander tells you to go kill yourself in a roundabout way: "Soldier, go over there, secure that position and stay there", and you do it, then it's an order, of-course that's a different situation, the soldier knew he could get killed because of orders (but even in the military there are bounds of reason that cannot be crossed, a soldier shouldn't be complying with illegal orders for example)."
and thats why in the UCMJ there is a buncha pages about commanders not being THAT STUPID. ( i think they can be brought up on charges if they 1 Knew that the position could not be held 2 did not countermand the order in time 3 did so for the purpose of getting that soldier killed)
bonus charges for doing things like cutting off escape routes and or giving the soldier defective equipment
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
It's ok, though. I'm not talking just to you - a lot of ACs on this post.
No, it doesn't keep a record because that is how the original software it is based on worked. This just never changed.
Suicide is a personal choice, not anyone else's. I don't see why everyone always tries to blame bullies, commenters, family, etc.
Regardless of if it's a rational decision or not it's my own choice, just like robbing a bank is my fault.
Do I get to blame commenters urging me to commit other crimes too?
It's an analogy....
There are numerous laws dealing with mental and emotional duress so yes, this is an area of law.
Someone who is capable of committing suicide cannot "take care of their own brain". Knowingly harassing someone in such a condition and causing them to carry out the suicide is at best manslaughter due to gross negligence.
Obviously if someone had a gun to their own head, was in clear duress and you encouraged them to pull the trigger you would be going to jail (a good lawyer could perhaps even make a case for premeditated murder-by-suicide if you had motive). The Reddit case is a little more complicated since (due to internet) the defendants would have had difficulty gauging the seriousness of the situation. Due to the murkiness there, a wrongful death civil case would be appropriate.
why am I talking to myself?
If this guy was clinically unable to take responsibility, he should either be in a mental hospital, or in the care of guardians who don't allow him access to the Internet.
Should be indeed. If everyone with major depression, alcoholism, and the other important factors that contribute to suicide got help then we would see very, very few suicides.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/1999/0315/p1500.html
http://psycontent.metapress.com/content/ek8w74718q375804/br
4chan keeps the ip addresses of everyone who posts, and they let the FBI know when something like this is happening, same with terrorism threats and people who post child pornography.
I'm posting AC because I wear a pink tie.
It's an analogy....
It's also a false analogy.
The thing is that none of the above conditions legally absolve someone from the consequences of their actions. Drunk driving is crime. It's not a defense to say "The alcohol made me do it".
No, I'm saying that free will doesn't exist and that we're all controlled by the laws of physics.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
You are mostly wrong there (e.g. insanity defenses, diminished responsibility etc.). Also, suicidal depression brought on by (or correlated with) chronic alcoholism is not very comparable to drunk driving. A person has to make several choices in order to drive drunk (including choices while they are sober). Suicidal depression is not a choice. Nobody with a healthy mind will choose to be placed under a compulsion to take their own life.
That's why /b/ doesn't keep a record of its posts
Heh...
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
It's actually a pretty good analogy. If your intent is to cause someone physical harm (or death) by your actions then the difference between a physical action and any other action on your part is trivial.
Psychological torture is illegal under the Geneva convention. Also, if you hire or convince someone to murder another person, then you can also be held legally responsible for the murder, even though you didn't do anything physical to the victim.
If you incidentally cause someone physical harm (or death) by your non-physical actions due to gross negligence then again, you are going to have some legal issues.
---- Reddit and its users aren't a suicide hotline or discussion forum. -----
Actually there is /r/suicidewatch and at least one other subreddit specifically geared towards helping people through suicidal thoughts. If this story is indeed true, then unfortunately he either didn't know about them (in which case a more experienced redditor should have pointed him in the right direction) or he was already at the point of no-return and there was nothing that anyone could have done to help him.
black_visions explicity stated that it was not the trolls driving him to it, and he had been suicidal for a long time. On reddit he was trying to revive or find a similar place to the usenet group alt.suicide.holiday ("ash"), a hangout for suicidal people who don't want to be talked out of it.
xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
The geneva convention deals with prisoners of war: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention
And this case has nothing to do with physical harm whatsoever. My point is that without any element of physical harm, no one cares for psychological harm. Why? Because every adult has an adequate defence against psychological harm.
What is that defence. Easy. They can just walk away. Ta da!
Really? It's a spoiler? /. article recently).
- Everyone I know GUESSES that ending before the game came out.
- The internet is full of spoiler due to the fans complaining about the crappy endings (there was even a
- The game came about over a month ago. Get over it.
My opinion on suicides is that if you find the world so intolerable, then by all means commit suicide. But don't make a song and dance about it and don't burden the emergency services. Get you will and last testament and finances in order. Wear your best clothes, record an automated phone call to the authorities for a few hours later and swallow a few cyanide pills. If you can't go through all that, then you are not ready to commit suicide and are just a whiny, self absorbed, self centred and attention seeking ass hole.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Clinical depression diagnoses is something to be determined by a qualified doctor and all I have seen so far is his sister saying that he had been acting depressed. Not the same thing. He was hurt by a particular woman who denied him access to his disabled daughter. Not the first time time when a man in such situation turns to irrational hatred of all women.
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
that's intentional. not to avoid lawsuits, but to provide one last place where words online work like words offline - once they're uttered, the go away and exist only in people's memories. there's no permanence, so you need not worry about saying something stupid and having it come back at you.
also saves on backups...
anyway, all the people that were on /b/ when it was good (inb4 /b/ was never good) are trolling slashdot now.
I understand that the Geneva convention relates to POW's. I was just citing an example of psychological harm that is illegal.
This particular case is somewhat complicated (probably fake, in the first place) but the point is that people with certain psychological conditions cannot just "walk away". If my actions (whether physical or not) directly contribute to harming another person then I bear responsibility for that harm.
But prisoners of war are not free. They cannot just "walk away" since they're confined to prison. So it's not a valid example to show psychological harm in this case since the prisoners don't have the defences available to them that the rest of us in the real world have.
Unless a person is (perhaps) paralyzed or is being forced to remain (which by itself is a crime), why can't anyone with a psychological problem learn to just "walk away"?
Actually I'm not sure what either of you are on about...That is from ME2 which was released over 2 years ago.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
Your comment did reference ME3's ending as well.
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/reddit-scared-straight-for-encouraging-suicide.html Maybe a little research next time? No Reddit official ever said they were being subpoenaed.
That is true for healthy adults. It is not true for sick ones.
Interesting...I Guess I'll know what the fuss is about when I get there then.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
OK, I've completed ME3 and am still clueless as to how my comment gave away the ending in any way, shape, or form...
Starting another play-through to see if going all rogue makes a difference.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K