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1 World Trade Center Becomes the Tallest Building In NYC
darthcamaro writes "On 9/11, terrorists took the lives of thousands of Americans — and removed a pair of icons from the New York City skyline. For the last 10+ years, The Empire State Building was the tallest building in NYC, but that changed today. 'Poking into the sky, the first column of the 100th floor of 1 World Trade Center will bring the tower to a height of 1,271 feet, making it 21 feet higher than the Empire State Building.'"
They were terrorists.
I actually find it interesting and a feat of engineering to have such a tall building. What is up with all the trolls? Get a life you guys. This was a tragic event that should never be forgotten. If there was no mention on Slashdot I would think that someone was asleep at the wheel.
Flexible bare-metal recovery for Linux/UNIX
Wow they actually started building something again there ? I lost interest after years of bullshit surrounding that site. Penn and Teller said it best on their "Bullshit" show, they should've just rebuild roughly the same towers right away and say "Business as usual motherf***ers".
Engineering tall buildings qualifies as "News for Nerds", though moving into 18th place isn't necessarily front page news for nerds.
There's a difference between "News for nerds" and "News that ONLY nerds would appreciate."
That said, I don't think this story should be here, but I didn't to to firehose, and did nothing to keep it from appearing here, so I won't complain.
I think everyone should read the foundation series by Isaac Asimov to see how the US fits like first Galactic Empire.
Stupid bickering between the city and developers kept the World Trade Center an embarrassing hole in the ground for over 9 years. This building should have been finished years ago.
What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
This has been all over the news, but I just don't see how it warrants all the attention. The real story is what held up construction on the new tower.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Almost 11 years to build a building. Nuts. The Empire State was built in just 2.5 years using primitive 1920s technology, and the first WTC in the same amount of time.
I think the long dragout time is symbolic of how America has lost its ability to get things done in a quick fashion. (And why people turn to India or China or Russia instead.) Too much bureaucracy and second-guessing and twiddling of thumbs.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
That's too extreme. Surely we could compromise? Perhaps just a bomb?
Get ready for a remake of Escape from New York.
A year after 9/11 they should have broke ground on new twin (or more) towers, similar in design but BIGGER.
THAT would have sent a message and been a proud symbol of American resilience.
Instead, almost ten years later there were still two holes in the ground, symbols of bureaucrats and committees and EPA studies.
Now we get a single tower with fewer floors (but a very tall antenna!), a monument to the success of the 9/11 attacks.
I think a 1,300' tall office building shaped like Maurizio Cattelan's L.O.V.E sculpture -- preferably in gold -- would have been both a National Symbol of defiance against those who would harm us and a proud display of the typical NYC manner of greeting.
If it's not habitable, it's not a building, per se, ie, it's not "the tallest building in NYC".
Maybe the tallest non-supported construct. Tallest building is many months off.
NOT news for nerds btw. I've been doing drafting and architecture for over 20 years,
this is just NEWS. If we start 'building out' the definition of nerd... we're are just going
to have to call this a "news site". You can't say there are "nerds" in every occupation,
where are the molecular gastronomists? That's nerdy. Where are all my tuner nerds?
THIS version of nerds, means, from the very beginning, techy, electronic driven NERDS.
And it won't work to call this just a news site, cause news, is usually news on the first day.
Not 4 days later, a week later, a month later.
It'll happen soon, probably this year. Readership will decline pretty hard. Slashdot
has not in months, nee well over a year, surprised me with a fresh story that I didn't
catch somewhere else, ON THE DAY IT HAPPENED. Without a retool, this is probably
my last year reading Slashdot.
-AI
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
It took me years to adjust to the towers not being there. While I was still in high school, only a few blocks from the site, the bare foundation became a part of what was normal and it was incorporated into my sense of home. After graduating, I left New York. Whenever I returned, I saw the foundation, and it was still a part of home, a part of New York that was the same whenever I visited. When I returned last year, it was startling to not see the bare foundation, and see a building under construction. I think that for years, seeing that tower will be as alien to me as not seeing the old ones.
Where's the OTHER tower going to be?
Wow, someone constructed a tall building and created yet another eyesore among the NYC skyline. Big whoop.
GP is referring to people that may not have been American citizens but were there working or on vacation who unfortunately died that day.
From Wikipedia:
"and with its antenna spire included, it stands a total of 1,454 ft"
All they've put up at the site is a couple of girders marked 1271 ft. -- That is NOT "tallest in NYC" if those girders aren't any more habitable than the radio antenna atop Empire State.
This 'news' is total "feel good" PR bullcrap.
And, the Empire State Building has stood for more than 70 years. Top that, newbies.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
"Many of those 10,000 supported the demise of the 3k, so I'm just fine with that."
You have no actual idea whether that is true or not. You
merely believe what your masters tell you to believe.
You're "brave" behind your keyboard, but you wouldn't dare talk shit in person like you do here,
because if you did someone would teach you some respect for others.
I mean, isn't it going to be both a bit creepy and scary?
You've got the memories of all the people who died next door, and if there's one thing that would get a terrorist excited it would be the idea of knocking down the tower *again* after we went to the trouble to rebuild the thing.
You're going to need one heck of an immunity to superstition and a lot of faith to not at least consider these things.
I'm really curious to know how much occupancy they have lined up and whether the rates reflect any of this.
G.
The people in the towers weren't guilty of anything either.
Dust on an old man's sleeve
Is all the dust burnt roses leave
Dust in the air suspended
Marks the place where a story ended
T S Eliot, Four Quartets.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Then don't count me as part of humanity, thanks.
This would have been a cool set of buildings on any other site. As a replacement for the WTC it's kind of lame. I wouldn't the buildings rebuilt has they'd been. But I would have liked something comparable. Perhaps the twin towers had a high vacancy rate and they saw no way of filling all that space?
It is extremely embarrassing to see how long it took to get the building to this point. As others have mentioned it speaks to the sad state of affairs in this country. Almost anywhere else it would have taken a fraction of the time and would have likely cost less to build too. I realize that a lot the delays were related to bureaucratic red tape, but it doesn't matter the reason, it's a problem because this happens every day across the United States. In my area a couple of large scale projects, which could have been a boon have stalled because of garbage like this. I guess those guys didn't have the political pull and financial backing to finally get things going.
I also find it rather obnoxious that standards allow a spire affixed to the structure to be counted towards total height. But it was rather amusing hearing all the talk this morning about this building being the tallest in the Western Hemisphere like that mattered.
I know WTC/9-11 is the focal point for cloying sentimentality for the US and I know New Yorkers insist that NYC is the only place on the planet of note, but seriously? This is not news for nerds. This isn't even news.
Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246),
so that would be a good thing for you?
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
It seemed to be barely moving for months but this spring they must have really picked it up a notch because suddenly it's been growing fast! To me the old WTC is so reminiscent of the dotcom days. I had just moved to NYC and was for a small tech firm. Always loved perusing the O'reilly books at the WTC Borders on some down time. Nice to see them finally bringing it back, definitely gives me some optimism even if the USA and the world will never be the same again. But better or worse I'm packing up and heading to the west coast next year anyways. If you're not working in finance or maybe some wing of the entertainment industry there's nothing for you in New York anymore. All that crap about "Silicon Alley" is just hype. The only people hiring are hedge funds who want some kind of shady derivative algorithms coded up...but anyways, at least the WTC is back in one form or another.
Many of those 10,000 supported the demise of the 3k, so I'm just fine with that.
The perpetrators were mainly Saudi, they trained in Afghanistan and the US public links all this with the war in Iraq - where a shitload of innocent people died, probably all of whom had nothing to do with 9/11. And even in Afghanistan a bucketload of innocent people died.
Iraq body count
Civilian Casualties in Afghanistan
But I can't seem to find a link for a war in Saudi Arabia, or the number of civilian deaths there.
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
And it's already rusting.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
For feeding the Trolls?
But were big!! Look at us!! LOOK AT US!!
Many of those 10,000 supported the demise of the 3k, so I'm just fine with that.
That's a morally problematic stance to take. First of all, what's "many of those 10.000"? 1.000? 5.000? Let's say 5.000 for the sake of avoiding harder math. Ok, so the next step would be to take you and 16.665 like-minded individuals (plus a midget), put them in a group with 16.666 random people (plus a midget) and kill the whole group.
And I think the bluntness of the AC didn't really convey what I find to be a valid point: you should remember the ramifications. The most important lesson to learn, here, is that 9/11 didn't end with the building coming down. It resulted in much more people (including a lot of non-combatants) getting killed in two wars, an enourmous economic crisis, creation of the Patriot Act and the TSA etc. The reaction to the event was arguably worse than the attack itself, and if people forget about that and only think "honor our 3.000 and fuck the terrists", they are only fostering the kind of exploitable us v. them mentality that led to this political and economic nightmare to begin with.
It's 100.000, not 10.000, and it's still a very conservative estimate of the casualties of the American wars in the last decade.
The notion that "many of those 100.000" supported the events of 9/11 is plain ridiculous, particularly if you consider the average demographics of the war casualties (unharmed civilians from underdeveloped countries). Also, I would like to remind you that collective punishment is banned by the Geneve Treaty.
Still, nowadays world is much less safe and stable than 10 years ago, and Americans got robbed of a much deserved peace dividend that would have turned the US into a prosperous peaceful country.
But you got just another big skyscraper so Go America, I guess.
I don't think I ever met anyone who believed that Iraq was in retaliation for 9/11. Iraq was about the threat of Iraq having WMDs, at least at the time. There may have been some shoddy dialogue among idiots, but most people in the US--and certainly most educated people in the US--see the link between 9/11 and Iraq only in the more tenuous "9/11 put the country on a war footing" light.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
so that would be a good thing for you?
Well, if it's informative, then he gets Karma.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
Q:What worse then finding a worm in your apple?
A: 9/11
“It’s a bird!”
“It’s a plane!”
“It’s. Oh shit, it IS a plane!”
9/11
Q: Who are the fastest readers in the world?
A: New Yorkers. Some of them go through 110 stories in 5 seconds
9/11
Q: Why do tourists flock to New York?
A: It’s a blast
9/11
Q: What was the last thing going through Mr. Jones’ head when he was working on the World Trade Center’s 90th floor?
A: The 91st floor.
9/11
Q: What was the quickest escape time from the World Trade Center?
A: Ten seconds flat.
9/11
Q: What’s the biggest difference between 9/11 and the Oklahoma City Bombing?
A: Outsourcing
9/11
Q: How many Americans died in 9/11?
A: Who gives a fuck?
9/11
Q: How long does it take to reach the ground from 107 stories up?
A: The rest of your life!
9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11! Never forget...to laugh!
You can tell it's a NY thread when anything even remotely sarcastic about the town gets voted down on principle. Next NY'er I see who goes on a tear about how much tougher NY'ers are than those in "flyover country" is getting a swift kick to the teeth. You people are a bunch of babies.
- We only get one tower back
- It will be 104 stories vs 110 of the old WTC, but even then, it's not really 104 stories.
- 1WTC will skip floors 2 to 19.
- 1WTC will skip floors 93 to 99.
- 1WTC will forgo an outdoor observation deck.
- 1WTC will be the same dimensions as the old WTC at its base, before tapering-off dramatically by the upper floors, leaving little useable space.
Maybe he's a space alien.
IIRC, there was a policy limit per event, so there was a big fight over whether it was one event or two. It ought to have been treated as one-and-a-half, they should have decided that the first day, and Gov. should have covered the rest.
-- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
I'd like to point out that SuperKendall (in perhaps a wishful freudian slip) screwed up the count.
It's 100,000, not 10,000.
Seriously? You're going with THAT argument? If there's one argument that absolutely screams 'jock with anger management issues', that'd be it. "You'd never say that to my face, or I'd RIP YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF!"
Of COURSE we wouldn't say that in person! That'd be fucking retarded. That's... y'know... the primary benefit of anonymity. The ability to speak our minds, and give opposing views to those who tend to react violently to those views. Case in point, your post. There's a difference between 'respecting others' and 'saying anything in person to avoid pissing off the person with a gun to your face looking for any excuse to pull the trigger'. Some people it's possible to have a good debate with. Even a heated debate between two diametrically opposed views is possible without it resorting to anything other than sharing a beer afterwards. But with many people, that's simply not an option. They will refuse to see any other point other than their own, and will actively assault those who try.
And the fact that you called out his "Many of those 10,000 supported the demise" comment without giving even the slightest evidence to the contrary just tells me that you were saying anything in order to either provoke him, or make yourself feel superior. I don't know if his comment was true or not, but unless I'm actually willing to look into it and verify, I'm not going to call him a liar.
All that said... get over yourself and maybe try avoiding resorting to violence right off the hop. If you don't have anything intelligent to say, or any evidence to back up your rebuttal, or no rebuttal whatsoever aside from saying the other person is wrong because you said so, then maybe just keep scrolling down the page and avoid making a fool of yourself.
Depends on how you measure buildings: do you count architectural spires or antenna, or just measure to the top of occupied floors? As noted in TFA, there's a lot of arguments about these factors when comparing building heights. Personally, as an engineer, I'm more interested in the height as measured by occupied floors, because the rest is just fluff. Anyone can add a mast (either non-functional, as in the case of spires, or functional, in the case of antennas) to the top of some building. In fact, some structures don't even qualify as buildings, as they're just giant antenna (such as the one in North Dakota that's the tallest structure in North America), but to me a giant antenna is nowhere near as significant an engineering accomplishment as a giant building, so the antennas slapped on top should be ignored when comparing heights.
The view from atop of this new building won’t be any clearer for America and the real effects on our society from the original towers being dropped in what is largely considered a False Flag Operation. Under the guise of fighting terrorism, the Patriot Act was adopted WITHOUT public approval or vote just weeks after the events of 9/11. A mere 3 criminal charges of terrorism a year are attributed to this act, which is mainly used for no-knock raids leading to drug-related arrests without proper cause for search and seizure. The laws are simply a means to spy on our own citizens and to detain and torture dissidents without trial or a right to council. You can read much more about living in this Orwellian society of fear and see my visual response to these measures on my artist’s blog at http://dregstudiosart.blogspot.com/2011/09/living-in-society-of-fear-ten-years.html
Because anyone who isn't fellating an American flagpole over the news of a shiny new tower in NYC surpassing in height a nearly century-old landmark is a friggin' terrorist, right?
When I think of middle America it reminds me of the Taliban: uneducated religious fanatics with guns. Since the Taliban are pretty tough dudes I imagine middle Americans are also somewhat tough but they're obviously not too smart of they wouldn't be uneducated religious fanatics with guns.
Hey, that's the combination on my luggage!
They will put a gun turret on the roof....
war casualties (unharmed civilians
... say what? Also, fuck my countries politicians. Just so you realize I'm on your side, and my picking on you has nothing to do with your viewpoint.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Any bets if Obama gets reelected that the new towers won't be used for a 9/11-2 to give him an excuse to declare martial law and enact a new congressionally passed extension allowing presidents to be relected for 3 (or more) terms? (I don't personally think it matters whether it's a D or R, just that it would have to be middle of the 2nd term for such an act to take place and intentionally designed to influence policy such that broad sweeping changes like I suggested would be ramrodded through... again.)
Cute, my captcha was 'fallacy'. Let's hope it proves apt.
All in a row, one lower tower to the right, then two slightly higher towers to the left of it, with one really high tower sandwiched between them. Point it East.
I go by highest usable restroom. Any altitude above which I cannot relieve myself in comfort is irrelevant.
We built the world's tallest building, in twin-tower format no less. It stood there for decades.
Then some fuckers ran planes into them.
Yes, quite teh impressive phallic reference we've built ourselves, eh?
Next step: World's largest cock-shaped sports car.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I don't understand why I got tagged "offtopic"...
It's exactly what this article is all about...
It's going to be funny if the terrorists bring down this new building.
Then they'll post a message saying "Don't build any more buildings here.".
You kill 3,000 of ours, we'll kill 100,000 of yours.
When did we kill 100,000 Saudis?
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
What's equally amazing to me is that a functional mast (antenna.. dirigible?) doesn't count, non-functional spire does....
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Do we really need a bigger target for the next time such a thing happens?! -_- The idiocy of so many people of this country amazes me.
Hi there. You're an idiot.
yes I'm sure the editors wanted a serene discussion on comparative construction techniques, and didn't for a minute think about the potential for this to quickly devolve into a political discussion that will get 900+ posts and a nice boost in ad impressions.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
If you're fast you can piss from the roof of any building with an observation deck.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
I don't know about you, but I find the ass-groping, crevice-penetrating symbol of the TSA much more unpleasant. I can ignore a phallus in the sky, but a finger in my ass is a completely different matter.
Wait? You mean there are restrooms in NYC?
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
well, for starters, how about actually waging war on those who attacked us? bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and the taliban that hosted them left Afghanistan. ol Bin L was chilling and watching porn and porking his young wives for years after, laughing at us turning places where Al Q never was into Al Q recruiting grounds (e.g. Iraq and some others). years later, we label as that same "taliban" other groups disgruntled with foreign invaders, and in fact are negotiating with "taliban" because of course we will never "win" in Afghanistan. What a load of bullshit. We aren't the best hope for the world, we're global mass murdering psychopaths.
9/11 was forgettable in no way. The event itself, on its own merits, is not forgettable. I watched the towers fall and the ground tremble all the way here in Brooklyn. Bits of burning paper drifted over our neighborhood for weeks. So as an eye witness it's not forgettable. Also, it happened in New York, which has as much claim to the title of capitol of the world as any city, and so because it won't forget there's little chance the rest of the world will either. The Oklahoma City bombing, by contrast, happened in Oklahoma City.
Also, the legacy of 9/11 is not entirely the sum of the evil that it has excused since. It also shattered the illusion of invulnerability of the United States, for others and for Americans. For all the NSA and military and nuclear weapons and wealth and power the United States was brought to its knees by a handful of guys with box cutters who were thinking outside the box; that's a powerful lesson for everyone, not just Americans, including for us geeks as we go about our technical jobs.
Yes we do need to deal with Bush and Cheney and all those who have used 9/11 to strip America of its freedom; I hope we do it soon, with prejudice.
But don't be so dismissive of the event itself. It was and continues to be significant.
If not us, who? If not now, when?
I don't know about you, but I find the ass-groping, crevice-penetrating symbol of the TSA much more unpleasant. I can ignore a phallus in the sky, but a finger in my ass is a completely different matter.
Precisely why I chuckle darkly every time I hear the phrase, "We must do X or the 'terrorists' will win!"
Obviously, they already have.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I don't understand why I got tagged "offtopic"...
It's exactly what this article is all about...
Penis, er, tower envy, obviously.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
And how many were dying in Iraq and Afghanistan every year before 9-11?
That's what this bullshit crowing about the height of a building in NYC amounts to.
We should build more buildings on top of cemeteries, burial grounds, oh and how about former concentration camp sites!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Body_Count_project
"IBC is purely a civilian count. IBC defines civilian to exclude Iraqi soldiers, insurgents, suicide bombers or any others directly engaged in war-related violence. A "min" and "max" figure are used where reports differ on the numbers killed, or where the civilian status of the dead is uncertain."
104.594 to 114.260 civilian deads in Iraq only.
I grew up in NJ in the early 70s and watched the Twin Towers grow as they were being built.
When they came down, it meant a lot to me.
I was just in NJ this weekend visiting old friends and had the opportunity to see the Freedom Tower as it is being built.
I'm not special. But the being able to witness the construction of these two amazing structures is special to me.
It is special to many many people for reasons of their own. If it's not a special moment to you, that's okay too. But STFU and move along, nothing for you to see here.
That would be making everybody's life too easy, don't you think?
That's more of an impressive technical accomplishment than it seems. I remember reading about how the Burj Dubai plumbing system works. Hauling water up to that kind of elevation just to flush a toilet and send the water back down again takes a *lot* of energy and a *lot* of fancy design to keep it contained. Somewhere I read that some of the plumbing pipes operate at 30 bar -- almost 30 atmospheres of pressure! That could create one hell of a flush.
Not according to the government, they have not. I hear they plan to release some Al-Qaeda documents, purportedly from the liar of the beast himself, that definitely prove Al-Qaeda is gone and no longer a threat. Maybe we will get back some of the freedoms then.
Or maybe we'll get em back after the elections. Or maybe we should consider the elevated threat post-Arab spring and keep all security measures anyway. They've done such a good job already, I'm sure keeping them in place is not a bad idea after all.
I'm all mixed up now, I am off to watch a movie, have a drink and leave thinking about terrorists to the pros.
This is a perfect example of the root cause of everything that is wrong with the USA: supremely arrogant, utterly self-deluded, smugly imbecillic and profoundly ignorant feeling of the Universe revolving around your ass.
From what I've seen traveling around the world (something that I am sure you did not deem necessary to form your opinion) is that if anything, your numbers are actually reversed: for every naive goofus who sees USA as a potential saviour, 5 see it for what it is: a self-important empire whose distinguishing feature is hypocritical pontification about "freedom" and "democracy" while depriving anyone who has something it wants of freedom, property and frequently life all the while propping up convenient dictators and absolute monarchs (see also: Saudi Arabia) all over the world.
And your general attitude just illustrates the point gloriously.
Comedy gold. What was the last time anyone other than thieves and would-be robber barons hoping to profit from misery of their fellows actually asked you to show up and blow their country to smithereens in the name of "saving" it?
Or were you trying to be sarcastic by pointing out how USA rigged the world financial markets for its own benefit? Or more precisely for the benefit of its top 1%, who - amusingly enough - are these days busy abandoning what they sense is soon to be a rotting corpse of a has-been empire for some greener pastures...
They had already banished Osama long before 9/11. The government there, for all its own Muslim fundamentalism, is actually having quite the time keeping down the militant ones, and has executed many of them.
"You'd never say that to my face, or I'd RIP YOUR FUCKING HEAD OFF!" says one Anonymous Coward to another.
Jack of all trades,master of none
They were making fun of your "unharmed civilians" typo...
The enemies of Democracy are
Here's a partial list of what's up.
Neoconservative Ideological War to promote the myth of American Exceptionalism in the middle east, where Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, et al still treat the average woman like property... and idea of freedom is anathema to the rule of oil sheiks
The Denial of Habeus Corpus: here and abroad
Extraordinary Rendition: using a network of international torture specialists from 'intelligence' organs of foreign sovereign state
CIA Drone Strikes & their associated 'collateral damage' because we don't care if women and children of terrorists die, talk to each other or become the next wave of radicalized terrorists
$Billions given to Pakistan which supported and hid the activities of A.Q. Khan and a 'rogue' network of nuclear proliferation which benefited from 'our tax dollars'
7 Years of USGS mineralogical surveys of Afghanistan under the protection of the U.S. military because George Carlin was right: "Have you ever noticed that the central letters of indUStry are u-s?" We're just there to, "whip a little industry," on those backwards, undeveloped (other) religious fanatics who don't realize that there's a New World Order headed by the Ownership Society and we p()wn them.
Among other things, that's what's up.
Would you care to add anything?
Many of those 10,000 supported the demise of the 3k, so I'm just fine with that.
Figures that you'd have no problem with innocents dying, as long as we take out a few bad guys with them.
Also, you're off by an order of magnitude.
--Jeremy
Jesus was a liberal
Oh I see now.
Well, I guess it happens to make a fool of yourself when you're trying to express a certain depth of thought in a foreign language.
Also, that's a particularly nasty kind of typo, as it totally reverse the meaning of the sentence.
You kill 3,000 of ours, we'll kill 100,000 of yours. Do that often enough, maybe people will learn not to fuck with us.
It's when both sides start using this logic that things get really fun.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
way = singular
anyway
Precisely why I chuckle darkly every time I hear the phrase, "We must do X or the 'terrorists' will win!"
Obviously, they already have.
If you believe that then you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
You'll know the terrorists have won when you are offered the choice of convert to their brand of Islam or die, the Constitution has been replaced by Sharia law, and the Muslim Caliphate (which existed until 1924) is reinstated. That is what they are fighting for, not to inconvenience your air travel by forcing people to wait a bit longer in line. If you are "chuckling darkly", thinking the terrorists have won, you aren't getting it. They keep announcing their intentions, and people keep ignoring it as if in denial.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2012/04/30/one-wold-trade-center-why-new-yorks-tallest-doesnt-measure-up/
I believe that it should have been built to be the tallest in the world. NYC is the financial capital of the world, so this would have been a testiment to US's resolve and confidence.
When did we kill 100,000 Saudis?
You, and some moderators, are confused. The problem isn't Saudis, per se. The problem is Islamist extremists who are willing to take up arms and engage in terrorism. If you know much of anything about what is going on, you must know that the US has been fighting Islamist extremists from around the world in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq. It is these very same Islamists extremists who have killed most of the 100,000 people killed in Iraq. That is part of what ultimately made Iraq so deadly for them: their wanton killing undermined their support in the Muslim world, and it resulted in many ordinary Iraqis that might otherwise have backed them to turn against them.
Not only did you get this wrong, but you seem to be picking the one move that could inflame the entire Muslim world against the US - an unprovoked attack against Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca and Medina, the holiest places of Islam, that killed large numbers of innocent Muslims. Was this deliberate on your part? Is that what you want to see? The entire Muslim world waging war against the US? You should keep in mind that even if you aren't American, the results of that might not be pretty for many countries.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
When Donald Rumsfeld and George Bush have a future PNAC meeting, and decide they need a "New Pearl Harbor to justify a middle-east conflict" (that is a _real_ quote btw), I guess we know what building they are going to demolish under the facade of a plane strike.
If we were really going to learn our lessons from 9/11, we wouldn't have let the terrorists win by giving up our rights, our privacy, our liberty, and shitting on the Constitution. If you look at what we've given up in the name of security, the terrorists got everything they wanted. Well that and the military industrial complex (hello Blackwater) that have gotten trillions of money for doing nothing.
"there's 5 that wish we'd come in and fix whatever crap is going on in their community."
"we're the best hope for the World and everyone knows it"
This is exactly the mentality that leads to so many wars, some Americans actually think the rest of the world WANTS them to come fuck up there shit, steal the resources then install some dictator for their own good.
"that's why they loan us money until they're starving because they know if there's ever a problem we're the ones they can call."
Really? normally when someone loans you money, you are indebted to them like a servant. I think the situation is that places like China are buying US debt hoping that the US can pay out on some interest, and they can profit from it while the US go wage wars on invisible enemies, and doesn't default on it's payments. if it does, you better learn mandarin.
I will quote you to anyone who has ever expressed any sympathy for the US after 9/11. That will cure them of any misconceptions rather quick.
Come to think of it, your logic of "the uppity foreigners actually want to hold us to all the bullshit we've been spewing and then refuse to lick our boots worshipfully and to cower in fear before us - kill these ingrates all!" expresses a world-view straight out of Mein Kampf. You know, that book so revered by your other supremacist ideological brothers of yesteryear. Same ideas, different übermenschen. They sported more bloody results of their insane lust for global domination, but the hour is young yet. Then, on the other hand, they did not have Internet and so they all had to go and be belligerent jackasses in the real world, instead of being online "tough guys" - like you - who cower in their basements while cheering on the mercenaries in foreign lands.
Agreed! Your medication has indeed settled at the bottom of your stomach ... where it unfortunately failed to dissolve and thus has no effect. Probably too much alcohol in the surrounding contents.
You might try stopping chewing on the furniture for a bit and try lying down instead - at least until this episode of yours passes. To put you to sleep you can count bloody corpses of all the "enemies" you are going to kill! Since there are at least a good 5 billion of them, you are not likely to run out before midnight...
In reality, the goal of Bin Laden was to disrupt our financial system, which he did fairly well, and destroy our way of life. But nevermind that for a moment, let's get to what's wrong with your statement.
So,you believe the goal of "the terrorists", AKA Al Queda or Quesadilla or whatever, is to invade our country and force all 350+ million of us to follow their particular religion... hmm, sounds a lot like fundamental Christianity... funny, that.
I digress;
Anyway, in order to fulfill this goal, they hijack some planes and crash them into a couple really, really tall banks 11 years ago... then what? What devestating attack have we suffered since? Where are the imams on every corner, preaching fundamental Islam and demanding we convert? Where are the attempts to "replace the Constitution with Sharia Law?" Well, attempts from Muslims, anyway... the government is working pretty damn hard on enacting it, with the addition that everyone who isn't insanely wealthy gets treated like shit, instead of just women.
That's why I don't buy the "long game" theory - Our nation has the resources for a long drawn out conflict, whereas a ragtag bunch of goat herders with RPGs and AK-47's don't really possess the resources for a war of attrition with us.
That is what they are fighting for, not to inconvenience your air travel by forcing people to wait a bit longer in line.
You think the total loss of our Constitutional right to not be ass-raped by government agents when trying to travel from point A to B is merely "inconvenient?" That's what I love to hate about TV news watchers like you - you piss and moan about how the evil, scary, faceless Muslim boogeymen are going to come to our country (someday) and throw out the Constitution, meanwhile your own fucking government is systematically dismantling it, peeling your rights one by one; and you call it an "inconvenience." You sit in your cozy chair, foaming at the mouth with rage as you scream obcenities at images of the enemies of Oceania on your telescreen, because it's the only thing left you know you're allowed to do; the 2-minute hate is the highlight of your day... War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength...
Sorry, started channeling Orwell there for some reason...
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
When did we kill 100,000 Saudis?
You, and some moderators, are confused. The problem isn't Saudis, per se. The problem is Islamist extremists who are willing to take up arms and engage in terrorism.
Yea... like the Saudi Islamist extremists who, financed by a wealthy Saudi man well connected to both the Saudi royal family and the family of former U.S. President George Bush, attacked us.
If you know much of anything about what is going on, you must know that the US has been fighting Islamist extremists from around the world in Afghanistan and formerly Iraq.
... after we were attacked by a bunch of Saudis. The only fighting we did with Iraq previously was when they invaded Kuwait, and a few random bombing runs during the Clinton administration. Oh, and when our country put Saddam Hussein in power back in the 70's. Hussein, as power-mad as that asshole was, ran a pretty tight watch when it came to outside forces of any kind operating within his borders; totalitarians tend to be that way.
It is these very same Islamists extremists who have killed most of the 100,000 people killed in Iraq. That is part of what ultimately made Iraq so deadly for them: their wanton killing undermined their support in the Muslim world, and it resulted in many Yea... because we're there
. Had we not invaded Iraq, those people would still be being killed by Hussein, instead of the cockroaches we let in during our coup d'etat. Now that we're forcing the Iraqi people to follow our nation's Rules for Empirical Colonies, they will continue to be targets of anti-American forces.
you seem to be picking the one move that could inflame the entire Muslim world against the US - an unprovoked attack against Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca and Medina, the holiest places of Islam, that killed large numbers of innocent Muslims.
Ignoring your use of multiple tenses, a hallmark of not proofreading, I'm not "picking" anything; I'm merely pointing out facts regarding the people who planned, financed, and carried out the WTC attack on September 11th 2001. Well, that, and refusing to buy the bullshit rationalization for starting wars in countries we have no business in; the gratuitous waste of blood and treasure really tends to piss me off.
Was this deliberate on your part? Is that what you want to see? The entire Muslim world waging war against the US?
Oh, piss off with the emotional arguments and general troll shit; your strawmen and fallacies of equivocation have no effect on me. Besides, you are the one who keeps insisting Muslims are waging war on America, for lack of evidence.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Afghanistan does not have any training facilities for flying large civil aircraft. Not then and not now. Bin Laden lived there, and - well, that's about it. He lived there.
send + more == money?
Please stop feeding the trolls.
...the buildings and stopping by that same Border's store mentioned above to check out some books at lunch time or being outside during the summer concert festivals sitting between the towers next to the golden globe. I miss those times. Only thing I have left from there is my green WTC ID card that has nothing on it stating it was from the WTC except for the little cartoonish logo of the two towers jutting up from a circle.
I carry it in my wallet these days to preserve the memory hoping to show it someday to someone who might be interested but so far nobody seems to care to see it even when I mention that I worked at #7 WTC when 9/11 happened but wasn't there that day since instead I was going in late to work and watched the whole thing happen on my TV from the safety of my apartment's living room overseeing the cloud of smoke spreading south towards the water.
Just as the poster above, I'm no longer working in Finance and no longer in NYC which has become a different place than I remember from that time and frankly I'm glad to be away from that Gotham City.
Libya last year. Serbia before, Kuwait, Korea, WW2, WW1, the list goes on. I think the truth lies somewhere in between your post and the GP. Some US military actions are deplorable and indefensible, but some of them are legitimate attempts to help defend freedom and democracy. Obviously GP poster's attitude is idiotic, but it is also true that the developed world uses the US military do do a lot of its own dirty work and pushes much of the responsibility for global security onto the US.
And then they get to play both sides. They get to use the US army as a proxy for their own defense or imperialist goals, and they also get to play the anti-American and pacifist card at home. Overall, most of the developed world (at least at the governmental level) is pretty satisfied with letting the US be world police.
US = Imperialist and Everyone Else = Innocent Victims is a naive way of viewing the problem.
Why did this cost 3 times as much money as Burj Khalifa while being 60% of its size? I doubt it's as luxury as Burj Khalifa inside, too.
Looks like some company made some nice money off of 9/11...
Strange how New Yorkers were initially hostile to the original World Trade Centre buildings when they were built. With time that hostility was muted down to mere indifference. The only people who seemed to actually like them were the tourists. It wasn't until they were destroyed that they became 'iconic' and a 'symbol of American freedom and ingenuity' even for New Yorkers too. Living historical revisionism in action.
Honestly I thought everyone here would be a little more mature and respectful, but I guess not. I guess 10+ years is long enough to forget.
Libya. 2011. Not just the everyday people of Libya, but the Arab League of Nations. Source: Both Newsweek and Time Magazine (although Google will instantly back me up from many other sources as well).
You can also very accurately claim that the people of Syria are at this very moment asking for the same action, but have not yet been successful in convincing the United States (and/or others) to do so.
The solution to the problem of "war" is very simple: refuse to recognize it or engage in it. Practice lawful-self-defense instead, which means that: (a) you don't commit aggression yourself, and (b) if someone else aggresses against you, you go after them, but not innocents. E.g.: you kill ANY of my people and I will hunt you down, capture you, try you, and (if you are found guilty) kill you. Slowly, painfully, and publicly. However, I will *not* harm your family, or innocent bystanders, or other people who happened to be born in your country. I will attempt to punish aggressors, but NEVER the innocent, even if you hide among them. (But I will wait for you to come out, and *then* I will hunt you down, capture you, try you, and kill you.) Self-defense, and when necessary force in self-defense, are often justified, but the complete and total lawlessness we call "war," and the resulting, self-perpetuating cycle of ever-escalating harm against innocents, is never justified.
Nonaggression works!
"Comedy gold."
Nope, he's right. America is the hope for the better world. I wanted to write more but by now I realize that there is not point trying to explain these things to people like you because there is no amount of logic that your brain wouldn't flat out reject. Things are the way they are because "the world" wants it that way.
And, of course, with both the Iraq and Afghanistan war, simply threatening war would have been enough.
Saddam, when he realized that the US wasn't interested in the fact he didn't have WMDs, had started negotiating some sort of surrender, trying to get immunity and sanctuary in some other Arab country for himself and his family, and in return handing Iraq over to whoever the hell the Americans wants.
The only reason he fought, in fact, was that he was (quite rightly) convinced that he'd be executed. So the real question is: Was it worth hundreds of thousands of lives to bring one person to trial?
We, of course, completely ignored any such negotiations, which were stopped by the actual invasion.
And the Taliban were, and are, cowards. And, hell, they didn't like bin Laden either, the only reason they let him live there was poor control of their country, and some bribes.
If we had simply said "Look, off the record, we're coming in to get bin Laden, regardless...we can either do this 'with your permission' leaving your authority intact, or we can just walk right in, leaving you in the uncomfortable position of having another country violate your sovereignty with a military force and you essentially forced to respond..."
They would have, of course, said 'Uh, sure, we don't like bin Laden either! Now, uh, we will join the Americans in removing this person who have seized control of part of our country! Here's a dozen guys with guns to help, because this is a 'joint' operation, after all. Also can we maybe have less trade sanctions...no? Just checking.'
We, of course, didn't bother with trying to do that, either. we said 'Turn him over', they said 'No', and we...gave up trying to negotiate and invaded. (And then we didn't even bother to get bin Laden, either.)
I'm not saying that America should go around threatening other countries. But frankly, we're a 800-pound gorilla, and if we're going to actually invade, the least we can do is threaten these incredibly weak countries a little bit more until they surrender, which at least doesn't result in hundreds of thousands of people dead.
But, of course, the neo-cons don't want to just push the US's weight around, which the US already does anyway. No, they think things are better with 'war', and apparently we've all forgotten that 'war' means 'Trying to kill people while they try to kill you'.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
It may be symbolically important to re-establish a building as tall as the original twin towers, but I can tell you as a New Yorker, no one's going to want to work there. There is still too much fear.
Does this mean that the terrorist "win"? Ask Osama Bin Laden.
--- When I grow up, I want to be a legislator of scientific laws.
OK wise guy, when the country in which the killers hide protects the killers, then what do you do?
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
You talk to the leaders and explain that if they knowingly shelter criminals, they are criminals themselves, and subject to capture, trial, and punishment as accomplices (again, think slow, painful, and most importantly PUBLIC death). Most political leaders are much more concerned about protecting their own power, wealth and prestige than about the welfare of those underneath them, whether criminals or not, and will be more than eager to cooperate rather than to risk losing all of the above. Those who don't, can die horribly, and then burn in hell forever afterwards. But regardless, either way, you are not targeting innocents. You never target innocents. If the "leaders" of a country choose to harbor criminals, they become criminals themselves, and then you can get them, but still never target innocents.
Nonaggression works!
You're "brave" behind your keyboard, but you wouldn't dare talk shit in person like you do here, because if you did someone would teach you some respect for others.
Amusing. The "brave" man is lecturing about learning to respect others on the internet.
I suggest you make your original statement to the face of a US Marine, Army Ranger, Navy Seal, etc., "brave" man, and stop being "brave" behind your own keyboard.
You gotta be kidding. This is why I asked for anyone who is not a self-serving jackal asking you for "help". And so you list prime examples of the very thing I pointed out!
Libya: a bunch of radical islamists trying to overthrow a secular thug in order to establish Sharia law and persecute everyone who is not them. You and NATO helped in hopes of gaining preferential access to Libyan oil fields. Next.
Serbia: a bunch of power-hungry "separatists" who would exploit any possible division to split their country into a buch of city-states if they could get away with it as long as it put them in charge. Not to mention that some of them used a clever strategy of breeding like rabbits to gain control of territory of their neighbours, which you and NATO whole-heartedly endorsed. So you stepped in and gave them "freedom" to be dependent on you and your allies! And oppress the Serbs. Then there is a whole litany of fabricated "war crimes" that you try to pin on the Serbs to bring them to heel (never you mind that NATO killed far more civilians in far more criminal fashion, like bombing passenger trains, etc). An exercise in disgusting, self-serving "righteousness" for profit. Next.
Kuwait: an absolute monarchy invaded by a next door thug over them syphoning his oil using lateral oil wells running under Iraq's border built by US corporations (you knew the reason for the invasion, didn't you?) and so you went and ... restored absolute, oppressive monarchy back into its "rightful" place, the great purveyors of "freedom" and "democracy" that you are! Oh and the lies and propaganda that went along with it! The tear inducing (and totally fake) "eye witness" testimony by an incognito daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador before the Senate about babies murdered in their incubators... just priceless. Next.
Korea: you propped up a dictator so bloody and corrupt that half of his country preferred Soviet-style thuggery to his exploits! Or did you think that all these North Koreans who fought against you did it just for kicks? It was not until the 1990s when the last South Korean dictator was ousted, all the previous ones having been untouchable due to your whole-hearted support, the great lovers of "freedom" and "democracy" that you are. Next.
WW2: you ignored all the pleas for help while trying to profit from the war by strategically supplying both sides until you were outright attacked by the Axis, Japan having bombed Pearl Harbour and 4 days later Nazi Germany having declared war on you. You did not join out of any good will. Next.
WW1: a bunch of blood-thirsty empires fighting over which royal dick is going to be sucked by whom. There were no "good guys" in this war and so you cannot count it as "helping" anyone (other then yourself). Next.
Indeed, the Spanish American war, the subjugation of Philippines, etc etc. A long list of selfish, self-centered exploits of a greedy empire.
Actually the distinction is quite different. All of the military actions of the US are (with the possible exception of WW2) self-centered profit and expansion of power seeking excercises but because of the chosen "national narrative" and "national mythos" of the USA, i.e. "brave defenders of freedom and democracy" that your power elites use to hold the thing together, they are forced to pretend that the actions are to give liberties of the oppressed etc and so on to keep the populace appropriately opiated. Sometimes the mirage thus formed is more successful then other times. This is what is confusing you.
You guys crack me up. Libya's "revolution" is was driven by a bunch of Al-Queda affiliated radical islamists hell bent on overthrowing the secular thug whom they despised in order to establish Sharia law and put uppity women back in burkas (see also: Egypt where the Muslim Brotherhood is about to win the first-and-last "elections").
You and NATO helped in (absolutely misplaced) hopes of getting on their "good side" and getting access to Libyan oil fields. But that was just a long-odds gamble, the real profit was to be had in spent munitions, military gear donated and other ways to transfer money from your taxes to the members of the 1%.
Also, I am not sure if you are aware, but Arab League is composed of a bunch of absolute monarchs with a decided Islamist bent whose sole concern is to have more influence on countries previously run by secular dictators, hence their support only for "revolutions" in places where such a secular dictator is under threat from the Islamists: Egypt, Libya, Syria etc.
You can't be that naive, can you? You surely jest. Radical, vicious Islamists are the foreign-sponsored "revolutionaries" in Syria and are set to take power if Asad falls. They already have an impressive record of persecution and murder of anyone who is not them in the areas they managed, however briefly, to control. Go help them, the great exporters of "freedom" that you are! I am sure that you will find some way for your 1% to profit from it, whichever way it goes.
If America is truly the "hope" for "the better world" then we are all fucked beyond help.
I for one want nothing to do with all the self-serving hypocrisy, proud, smug celebration of ignorance, barely veiled supremacist philosophy, ever-expanding authoritarianism backed by ever-more byzantine laws that is slowly evolving into something resembling Fascism and mindless worship of greed that America represents.
Yeah, I will take that bet. There is absolutely zero motivation for Congress or the Judiciary to allow anything like that, and in fact it would be against both their interests. It will not happen. Obama couldn't even get Congress to vote with him on things their constituents wanted, like health care. You think he will magically get them to cede power to him? Doesn't even make sense.
One question that is completely missing in the discussion is "Why did they attack?" ... I think to most people this is still a deep mystery, it just came out of the blue for no reason at all. Very few see the connect to the (still ongoing) US foreign policy against the peoples of the Middle East.
send + more == money?
You're not even listening to what I'm saying. You're attacking a red-herring as opposed to what I'm actually saying. I'm not saying that the US doesn't engage in imperialist actions. I'm saying that because the rest of the developed world uses the US as the defacto peacekeeping power in the world, a lot of the blame gets pushed onto us while the rest of the world gets to double-talk their asses off and engage in the same imperialist actions while criticizing US imperialism.
For example, in Libya last year, that military action would not have been possible without the US Air Force. Nobody else has the technical capabilities to do what we did. France and Italy, in order to protect and promote their own imperialist agendas in N. Africa would have to massively increase their military spending. But that would never fly politically, so they get us to do the dirty work and then reap the benefits, all while the politicians get to talk down on US imperialism and save face with their voters. Or Germany with the US air defenses. They may criticize US military power, but at the same time their politicians are not exactly beating down the door to get us to leave and have to foot the bill for their own defense.
And really? Our military actions in Serbia, WW2, Korea, and WW1 didn't promote freedom and democracy? That's just laughable. So the government of South Korea wasn't perfect. Which would you rather live in, South Korea in the 70's and 80's or North Korea? Germany under Nazi and Soviet governments, or Germany under US/NATO protection?
And the US absolutely *did not* play both sides against each other in WW2. I have no idea where you would get that idea. Even when we were neutral we sided with the allies. Yes, lend-lease was largely self-serving, but it's not like we didn't pick a side. And try and ask a Korean, Chinese, or Filipino citizen who lived through WW2 whether they are happy that the US entered WW2 or whether they would have been happier living under Japanese occupation. You're being ridiculous.
That's nothing - GGP was off by 3 orders of magnitude.
Or when one side realizes they are outnumbered 50-1 and that the enemy doesn't seem to care that they might die.
There was no "Canada" until 1867. That was over half a CENTURY later. It was British rule before that.
The US fought the British, not Canada.
On 9/11, President Bush and Vice President Cheney took the lives of thousands of Americans ...
There you go.
You are worst of them all, you are supporting hundreds of thousands of deaths of those that did not attack anyone. You have the same disease of mind and bloodlust of which you accuse others, while supporting a government that commits mass murder.