Slashdot Mirror
Next Generation Xbox and Playstation Consoles Will Have Optical Drives
First time accepted submitter dintech writes "The Wall Street Journal reports that while Sony considered online-only content distribution for its next-generation Playstation, the manufacturer has decided that the new console will include an optical drive after all. Microsoft is also planning to include an optical disk drive in the successor to its Xbox 360 console as the software company had concerns about access to Internet bandwidth."
And they suck hard in very large parts of the US. Digital Only distributions would make it so those parts of the US wouldn't consider buying the consoles.
6 days to download TERA, I'm not doing that again.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
optical disks i can use anywhere are for grandma
downloading the same games that are locked to my console is so much cooler and sexier. its like 3g vs wifi. 3g is awesome compared to grandma's wifi.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. â"Tanenbaum, Andrew S.
(1) My 750k internet would take 7 days to download a 50 gigabyte Bluray-sized game. (2) Easier to just buy the disc from amazon and have it shipped to me. (3) Plus when I get bored with the game I can sell the disc and recoup my money. Example: I played Final Fantasy 12, thought it was kinda boring, and sold it for $55. Recovered my money.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
The Playstation 4's optical drive will actually be powered by a specially cloned human eye. It will better tie-in to the organic AI subsystem. Unfortunately, this is expected to reduce the yield to roughly 1 Playstation 4 per year. This may not be a problem, however, as the device is expected to have a starting MSRP of $2.99 billion.
I hope they offer a SKU that does not have an optical drive... and of course provide a way to take all existing disk-based games and upload them onto the new machine... cuz it'll have back-compat right?
Executives realized that in the real world their desire to axe the optical drive would be outweighed by most people in the US having crappy bandwidth. I never thought our terrible US bandwidth would turn out to have a silver lining.
Yes a US centric post, because while many other places have far better bandwidth, they just don't have the market presence plurality that the US does. For better or worse the US by and large defines the world market on such things...
I prefer using optical discs
It just feels so much better looking at my shelf to decide what I want to play this time around.
Plus I would prefer not to be constantly downloading, using up a large portion of my limited downloads and using up unessecary power.
Data caps present another problem. There are plenty of multi disc games out these days and the size is likely only increase as time goes on. The prospect of blowing through a significant chunk of your monthly data limit on a video game could easily discourage sales.
I don't know why Sony would be skittish about going online only.
It must have been a lively debate internally about this. I am sure many inside the companies were pointing out that by removing the physical media component it would destroy the possibility of game resale and the used game market. However, at the same time it kind of shoots their sales channel in the foot -- there's certainly no incentive for retail game stores or other businesses which make their money on having people come in and buy stuff to sell a device which obsoletes all their current sales and also does not provide for any prospects of future game sales.
Seriously, between the takes a day to download a 500 MB demo to possibly the worlds crappies update/patch distribution system... (What? You just spent a day downloading a 500 MB game and upon boot it requires you to update the the game with a 501 MB download that can not be sent to the background!?! Now you're PS3 is locked up doing updates for the next day. So much for playing that game.)
Seriously! WTF!
How about distributing via SD card full of ISO files or something similar. It probably costs way more, but I'll assume there's something else that can compete with optical drives. Maybe allow re-distribution of the installation media, and make users connect online to pay for a "cd"-key (if that's what your company is in to).
No trees were killed to send this message, but a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
With modern games weighing in at a hefty 5-20GB (depending, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less), even a fairly high speed connection will take hours to download the whole thing, unless you are running FIOS (which most people aren't). Even a 10Mbs connection will take an hour for a 5GB game, assuming it can max out, and that puts a lot of strain on the servers. Disc distributing makes far more sense, especially for consoles which tend to have a "put in the disc and play immediately" attitude.
Mind you, some of the big distributors would absolutely love download-only games, since that would effectively destroy the used-game market and help with piracy issues somewhat. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if many of them decide to not actually use a physical distribution method.
And, of course, DVD/Bluray disc playing is, in my experience, a very significant usage of consoles already, so it would be silly to omit that (except for the movie studios, who again would love to sell you a second, digital and digitally-DRMed version of every movie you already own). But it would remove far too much incentive for people to buy the console, and with the competition between the two sides, neither can risk the other gaining that advantage.
"None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
Most of the gaming world has no Internet. Most of my stays in rural America were low DSL speeds at best, and the unicorn was 2Mbps. Those people were also at the high end of the wage-earning bracket, but the dole-earners still had a modern-generation web-capable console--without Internet. An Xbox can play DVDs and music, so my generation of the lower-class use them as entertainment hubs*. Expecting gaming customers to migrate completely to 'the cloud' would exclude a large demographic.
*Anecdotal evidence from extended-family and friends
More and more game consoles are also media consoles. Shipping without some way to play Blu-Ray and DVD discs greatly reduces the utility of those boxes.
Sure lots of video is moving online, I use that myself quite a lot and it's fantastic. But I also like owning movies, and for the foreseeable future the only way to "own" a movie is on disc.
People also have a lot of existing discs they would like to keep playing...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
My guess is that these consoles will use a hybrid approach, similar to how some PC games are shipped. The disc will contain the bulk of the content, the art, levels, music etc that make up >90% of the disc's contents. The executable, however, would be downloaded and signed such that it only runs on that specific system under that specific user account. This would still require a download, but it would be 20gigs.
This way, Sony gets the best of both worlds, they prevent used game sales since the key on the disc is already account bound AND they don't completely screw the regions that have shitty internet connections. The device can also continue to be a bluray player for movies etc.
Now when are they going to get to their senses and distribute the fabrication to stores and save millions in distribution costs?
They could even lower the cost of gam... ahaha, who am I kidding, they will stay the same?
Send out a locked printing system. You can throw in 5 discs at once, they get burned there and then.
You put in a paper slice, it comes out with the artwork on it.
Assemble the case, done.
One single master disk, locked with a system ID, is sent to each shop that has the hub. Else the companies can still order directly from the company.
The problem will be burning, of course. They'd likely need to have 2 separate heads burning at once for acceptable burn speeds.
They could probably sell them elsewhere too, Sony especially since they do music and film.
They will know to keep a a few disks around after initial rush sales based on their records
No more running out of games that they bought. Now the only problems they will need to deal with is running out of burnable disks and printable covers. Well, ditch the covers, they could buy 10+ covers per disc given the thickness.
Also, lower prices closer to half the price they are now and watch sales more than triple.
Most people buy second hand because they cannot afford initial prices. The lower the price, the more it opens to impulse buys as well.
Game stores know this and they are abusing it for pure profit. And you thought piracy was a problem? You are your own problem, games industry.
Hell, so many industries know this. Why do you think the fast-food industry is so popular? They have stupidly cheap prices on things, sometimes even at a loss, and something else at the absolute bare-minimum profit and see billions of sales due to that. Supermarkets use it too. They cycle through "sales" on common kitchen goods that are pretty much required with OTHER things, so you'll likely get those things too.
This makes so many companies a huge amount of money. I only wish the games industry would realize it and get away from the stupid price points we have now.
Gaming doesn't have to be expensive. They are the ones making it so expensive.
how are they going to lock out used games on physical media?
I'm not all that familiar with Blu-ray Disc's physical layer, but DVDs have a millimeter-wide Burst Cutting Area in which the factory can store some information in a disc that is already pressed. It can most clearly be seen on GameCube and Wii game discs, which also have six pinholes in the lead-in whose precise sector location is stored in the BCA. This photo shows an example of a BCA and pinholes in a Wii disc. If BDs have a BCA or something analogous, it could be used as a serial number to associate with a specific console or a specific Xbox Live or PSN account.
The Used game market is huge, and a MAJORITY of players rely on or use the used market like EB games regularly. I know it pisses off the game makers that us "dirty rotten thieves"(tm) are stealing their money by buying and playing a used game. But most gamers do not buy into their delusion and prefer the lower prices of used games and the ability to sell games for a store credit.
I know I'll stop buying games if I cant buy a disc that I can then later sell used, or buy a older game used.
I never played any of the bioshock games, so I picked up I and II for $9.00 and enjoyed the low cost entertainment. I am actually thinking of trying borderlands next.
I would never have bought any of them at full rape me retail price of $60.00 each.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
there's certainly no incentive for retail game stores or other businesses which make their money on having people come in and buy stuff to sell a device which obsoletes all their current sales
Yet Walmart, Best Buy, and other stores that sell game discs still sell iPod and iPhone products.
Welp, looks like xbox pulled ahead in this one. Now if I can somehow purchase and play used games on it, we'll have a winner. I refuse to purchase a console where I can't play a damn used game. I'll leave consoles before doing that.
I was hoping for opitcal to be ditched in the next gen and for the industry to move onto flash media fully. By the time these consoles comes out 16GB of flash media will be pretty cheap.
I guess they don't think consumers are ready to give up the idea of owning a physical object. I guess that's not such a bad thing because the disk is an effective physical "token" that proves ownership of the game. In realty that's all it is, that and a cache of content. Pretty much all games now, PC and console, download updated game code and smaller content delta updates before running.
Games and consoles are now too complex for the old "write once and update never" model. Maybe for a disconnected, local only experience. Being connected to the internet requires the above model.
I'll be happy when optical discs die. I expected it to come this generation. Oh well. I mostly play PC games anyway. I don't even put optical drives in computers anymore. (Just have a slim USB dvd burner in the drawer when needed) The only reason I've even touched a game disk in the last 5 years was to retrieve and play old games from box I found in storage. Great old DOS games I run in dosbox.
Still, I like the idea of physical tokens for proof of game ownership. Helps us retain our right of first sale.. Wouldn't it be cool if, say, they were little short range RFID tags embedded in a chunk of plastic or a card? (Containing a cryptographically signed unique ID as proof of ownership, like the function of a serial number) Just have your game collection in a bin next to your console and have instant access to all your games. Game designers could have a marketing opportunity making their RFID tags in unique, pretty shapes. Your hallo 17 collectors edition could be a little helmet with trademark gold visor. Your gears of war 9 could be a pair of COG tags.
This generation sold as a "media hub" with the capability to play the video discs, play games, and serve apps because they were so expensive. It served a host of needs out of the box. If they drop discs then I can't play my existing media out of the box. I need to drop $500 for a new console and repurchase my media? That is going to cut into the sales figures at least a little.
It amazes me how clueless gamers are when they think just because they have broadband in their little suburb that the whole world should go digital only.
These systems sell globally and not everyone gets broadband (not even in the US) and a lot of people certainly don't have unlimited bandwidth or even want to let their system run for a day or more to download a game that will no doubt be expensive. Physical media won't be going away for quite some time.
I heard it was going to be called "The Phantom" before this announcement.
Also, don't they both want to be media hubs? There's a lot of DVDs and BluRay out there. Be silly to not play them.
Why are we still using rotational media? Why not use one those USB ports for a USB thumb drive? 47 GB is reailly available now and will be extremely cheap by the time these consoles are out.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
It seems like every time a new system comes out they use a new technology in the optical drive. Cartridges, then CDs, then DVDs, then Blu-Ray. I understand that in prior console releases it made sense to do this, however I don't want to see a change in optical drive technology just for the sake of having different optical drive technology.
Microsoft, support Blu-Ray.
Sony, don't create a new craptastic optical tech (UMD anyone?) just to be different. Use Blu-Ray again.
Nintendo, well... ships already sailed.
I only play single-player games, so I never connect my gaming consoles to the internet. If connecting it to the internet is required to play a game, I won't buy the game. If it's required to operate the console, then I won't buy the console. Call me old fashioned, but if you want my disposable income, you're going to have to meet my terms. Otherwise, I can always go back to card games and rock climbing. Considering my age, that's probably 30+ years of my money you won't be getting.
But Sony decided against a download-only model largely because Internet connections are too inconsistent around the world, one of the people familiar with Sony's thinking said. Because game files are large, customers in countries where Internet connections are relatively slow would be hobbled by a requirement to download games, the person said.
A Sony spokesman declined to comment.
Microsoft Corp. MSFT -0.38% is planning to include an optical disk drive in the successor to its Xbox 360 console, according to a person familiar with the matter. The software company also had concerns about access to Internet bandwidth, the person said. A Microsoft spokesman declined to comment.
"some people say sony hates personal freedom. sony declined to comment. some people say microsoft believes in unicorns and space dragons. microsoft declined to comment." some people say a lot of stupid shit that may or may not be true. the only warm body they took any comments from was the gamestop CEO. here's your revised headline/summary (choose one):
Wall Street Journal Asks GameStop CEO About Sony And Microsoft Consoles But Pretends It Has Other Mysterious Unnamed Sources To Hide The Fact The CEO Doesn't Know Shit And The Story Is A Bust
or
Wall Street Journal Doesn't Know Anything About Sony Or Microsoft's New Consoles But Are More Than Willing To Spread Unsubstantiated Rumors (Notice The Stock Tickers Next To Every Company Mention) Because FUD Moves Stocks
insensitive clod overlords obligatory xkcd car analogy russian reversals whoosh pedant fanbois ftfy in 3...2...1..PROFIT
You don't seem to get this so I'll explain it to you. If you are buying used games, YOU ARE NOT A PAYING CUSTOMER. You are just a fan. Businesses typically don't care as much about non-paying fans as they do about paying customers. Of the gamers who do the used games thing, really game companies really only care about losing the ones who won't buy the game retail if they can't sell it used and lower the price. Well that and they care about the people who buy angry birds pillows for 25x the cost of the actual game.
But many of those who do pay the $60 do so with the knowledge that they will be able to sell it back to Game Stop (or a pawn shop, etc.) and get some of that money back to buy other games. If that part of the "food chain" is interrupted, then the $60 business model could be in for trouble.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Just because they are including an optical drive doesn't necessarily prove the games will continue to be distributed on optical media. They could have it on there for an PS3/PS2 emulator to use while titles for the new platform are download only.
Also, one of the best marketing points for the PS3 is the Bluray player, making it a more useful general home entertainment device compared to an XBox360. They could keep the drive for this extra functionality since the drive itself is so much cheaper today than it was when the PS3 first came out. I fully expect Microsoft to use a BD drive as well now that the HD-DVD add-on boondoggle is behind them.
People have to buy new games with the view of selling them for there to be a used market. If they can't subsidize future new game purchases they'll almost certainly buy fewer.
It would seem likely that both sony and microsoft will use blu-ray unless microsoft uses HD-DVD to try to stop piracy.
AFAIK green-ray is still some way from being commercially availble
The key question for me is storage. I suspect that their will be at least three models from each
1. high priced large SSD drive
2. Mid priced small SSD drive
3. lowest priced large HD drive
With SSD the console makers can claim that from switch on to gaming will be 10 secs not the minute or two it takes now
the other question is what is microsoft going to use as a CPU the Xbox used X86, the 360 used powerPC, could we see another switch again say to ARM? Since Microsoft has already said its developing windows 8 for ARM?
One final question have we already seen the first next gen game trailers in Epic's Unreal Samaritan?
Given that with die shrinks 3 dual core high end graphics cards will become 1 high end graphics chip in the 2-3 years since it was first rendered
I'd be more worried about the lack of console storage space to hold the games. It should either have a big enough HDD to hold EVERY game available so I'm not constantly downloading the games, or it better come with a method to back them up (i.e. optical media).
But many of those who do pay the $60 do so with the knowledge that they will be able to sell it back to Game Stop (or a pawn shop, etc.) and get some of that money back to buy other games. If that part of the "food chain" is interrupted, then the $60 business model could be in for trouble.
Me not understand "sell it back", don't you keep games forever as a proper gamer should?
Those dudebro's selling back that brown shooter of the week for the next brown shooter of the week, or Madden for the spring/summer Baseball game, which they will then sell for the next Madden, aren't "Real" gamers, they're dudebro gamers. They're the guys who used to make fun of the guys playing RPG's, but now since games have "deth and blud and guns and bald testosterone-y heroes"
and the sports games resemble ESPN enough...they play games now. And they're ruining things for the rest of us...so we get magazines focusing so much space to manly brown shooters at the expense of everything else.
You seem to not be able to read or figure it out, so I'll explain it to you..
I by used and therefore I AM A DIRTY THIEF. I suggest you read again and brush up on your troll skills, you suck at it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
From things I've been reading it looks like future game sizes might go down as more is handled in game engines and hardware. But then again if the space is available it will get used.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
In a classic case of title misinterpretation, I thought next-gen consoles were leading the way with internal optical drives, ie. replacing the magnetic rotating disks.
I wonder if that tech is far off? It was promising plenty of TBs per cubic-centimetre if I remember rightly.
"I split coffee all over my wife's nightie
Next-gen consoles WILL be capable of playing back common video formats of the day.
Did ANYONE seriously think this wasn't the plan all along?
If so, dey dumber dan da proverbial stump.
the other question is what is microsoft going to use as a CPU the Xbox used X86, the 360 used powerPC, could we see another switch again say to ARM? Since Microsoft has already said its developing windows 8 for ARM?
An XBox had switched from x86 to PPC and has a large game library. The XBox is the anti-Mac!
I hear that if you install Halo on a Macbook, the universe explodes!
Can't see consoles not having a CD drive any time soon. Internet connection's are to slow, id rather have buy the disk put in and play or wait 2 minutes for an install. Then wait 4 hours for an install. It's also nice to be able to share games with friend's, something you can't do when a game bound to you're account. Also Console makers what to sell there consoles as a media dive and that means playing CD's, DVD, blue ray.
(See Subj.)
I only played Borderlands co-op but I would say it's really good fun if you can play it this way.
I don't live there, but people use satellite because they live outside the service area of DSL, cable, and fiber. These places tend to be places where people grow the food that you eat.
Me not understand "sell it back", don't you keep games forever as a proper gamer should?
I like RPGs, platformers, etc and hate FPSes (brown or otherwise) and sports games, but I also *already* have far more unplayed games than I have time to play. Keeping a game I've finished to play again at some unspecified future time is a non-starter for me.
My outloud response at the headline was "Uh, they DO have optical drives." becauseI didn't realize people had any fear of this draconian online-only non-sense actually happening. As stupid as many of the people at Sony and MS are - presenting ideas like banning used games or forcing online-only distribution to prevent any second hand or discount sales of software - they aren't completely out of touch with reality. If you remove optical drives, you put a lot of retailers out of business, and cripple many others (stores who sell electronics but are not focused solely on games). You force a lot of noobs and little kids, who don't have their own ability to buy online, to get their parents involved or find another method. Your sales decline that way, both in the short term and the long term when the parents of little kids, who shouldn'tbe playing 99% of these games in the first place, see the effort and the money involved, as well as the game content.
As far as SD cards, the read times on them are atrocious. You don't want games running off of SD cards, not to mention the fact that you will definitely lose them or break them. If they want to prevent this nonsnese, they can do what they should have in the first place - install game on hard drive via disc, require CD key, require disc to read for 2 seconds before playing and then not read from it again. The utter failure of the industry to utilize HD space on consoles is ridiculous, and they continue to charge far above market price for simple hard drives that aren't at all different from a computers.