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Nokia To Cut 10,000 Jobs and Close 3 Facilities

parallel_prankster writes "NY Times reports that Nokia said on Thursday it would slash 10,000 jobs, or 19 percent of its work force, by the end of 2013 as part of an emergency overhaul that includes closing research centers and a factory in Germany, Canada and Finland, and the departures of three senior executives. The company also warned investors its loss was likely to be greater in the second quarter, which ends June 30, than it was in the first, and that the negative effects of its transition to a Windows-based smartphone business would continue into the third quarter. Nokia, based in Espoo, Finland, posted a loss of €929 million, or $1.2 billion, in the first quarter as sales plummeted 29 percent. Once the undisputed global leader in the mobile phone business, Nokia has been outcompeted by Apple, as well as by Samsung and other makers of handsets running Google's Android operating system." (Here's another source, if you're hit by the NYT paywall, and the company's own positive spin.)

350 comments

  1. No good news in that by crazyjj · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A lot of Apple fans and MS haters may be tempted to cheer, but the loss of 10,000 jobs in this economy means 10,000 families whose lives will been up-ended and that sucks no matter what phone you're rooting for.

    And what's more, according to the article, a third of these job losses will come from Finland, with more in Germany and Canada. Decent western factory jobs seem to be going the way of the Dodo bird. Are there any phones still actually being manufactured in the first world? Even if Nokia recovers, what are the odds that those jobs won't reappear in Finland, but in China?

    --
    What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    1. Re:No good news in that by Nursie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Cheer?

      I can hate on MS as much as the next guy, but this is sad whatever way you spin it. Nokia used to create great products and be a byword for quality, reliable, cutting edge phones.
      Then they lost their way, management started all sorts of retarded internal competition games and the company just started chucking out hundreds of near identical handsets.

      Even then they had a significant market lead, even in the smartphone sphere, but they were losing it. This is when Elop came along and really killed them, jumping straight into bed with his old bosses and sealing the fate of a once-great european tech powerhouse.

      It's a shame to see such an icon driven into the ground.

    2. Re:No good news in that by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 0

      A lot of Apple fans and MS haters may be tempted to cheer, but the loss of 10,000 jobs in this economy means 10,000 families whose lives will been up-ended and that sucks no matter what phone you're rooting for.

      It's a bit presumptuous to say people are rooting for Nokia employees to lose their jobs or for the company to close down. Yes, there are plenty of MS haters, and they aren't all Apple fans. Personally, I want Apple, Android & MS to succeed in the mobile market because it drives competition and development. Nokia slipping away doesn't do anything to force the others to continue to be innovative or creative.

      Queue the replies from people wanting MS to suffer at the expense of Nokia employees and those who will declare that <insert name of company here> hasn't innovated in [year/ever].

    3. Re:No good news in that by Nursie · · Score: 4, Informative

      I should add that it's also entirely obvious that this would happen since the MS deal.

    4. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that why there seems to be a huge focus on education in many first world countries? Because thats where the jobs are at, no?
      Recently read that about 30% of the employers has troubles finding qualified people to fill in the functions. Thus I assume that the only thing it takes to get a job is getting qualified in the right thing.

    5. Re:No good news in that by nurb432 · · Score: 2

      Why would a fan wish for (fair) competition to go away in the first place? You may not want what they are offering, but its what keeps your side moving forward too.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    6. Re:No good news in that by Gizzmonic · · Score: 0

      Coffee, eggs, concern trolls...it's a Slashdot morning!

      --
      (-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
    7. Re:No good news in that by Jungle+guy · · Score: 1

      Nokia has been taking a hard hit, mostly because of its management. But the bad economic climate in the world, specially in Europe, is not helping any european company.

    8. Re:No good news in that by IAmR007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Windows phones was definitely the wrong way to go. Getting Qt working well on Android and iOS and marketing it as a platform could have been a lot more successful. Being able to use the same core code on multiple platforms is a big advantage. Instead, they chose a dying mobile OS.

    9. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Decent western factory jobs seem to be going the way of the Dodo bird.

      It's Finland, right? So more like going the way of the Angry Bird.

    10. Re:No good news in that by alen · · Score: 1

      assembling a phone is the equivalent of playing with Lego's. its simple tedious work. why would i want my kids to aspire to this kind of work?

      the value is in owning and developing the OS, battery tech, screen tech, the communications standards as well as all the other IP and semiconductors that go into the phone. assembly is monkey work

    11. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the corporate tax rate was 0, there wouldn't be any incentive for companies to leave, right? Put the entire tax burden on the public and you should be able to set the social program dials to wherever you want, right?

    12. Re:No good news in that by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      Recently read that about 30% of the employers has troubles finding qualified people to fill in the functions.

      Based on my experience, let me translate that for you:

      30 percent of employers are posting jobs that they know can't possibly be filled, so they can run to Congress and cry "We can't find Americans to do it," and get more H1B visas--so they can pay foreign workers to come here and work for slave wages.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    13. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The good thing about this will be that eventually all socialism will end....

      No it wont. Because some socialism is good. Public schools are good. Public roads are good. Public health initiatives are good. You have some socialist countries now that are highly uncompetitive. And you have highly capitalist countries, such as China, which are highly competitive, but creating externalities that make their current path unsustainable. Somewhere in the middle, a resonably free enterprise system with some government sponsored investment and a public safety net is where you're going to get the best overal quality of life over the span of decades.

    14. Re:No good news in that by plover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It may have been obvious, but it was obvious long before Microsoft had anything to do with it, and this certainly isn't Microsoft's fault. Remember the Burning Memo? Nokia has been faltering ever since the Chinese factories have been able to create their own lines because of the cell phone chipset availability.

      Nokia took the Microsoft deal because it became evident to them that Nokia's own OS was no longer a selling point, so it didn't make sense to further invest in it. That saved them a few kroner in the short term, plus there was a longshot chance that Windows Phone 8 could have made a dent in the market. It obviously hasn't yet, nor did the tech community expect much different, but one never knows what the phone market will look like in five years.

      --
      John
    15. Re:No good news in that by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      "Concern troll"? Haven't heard that one before. Does it have more HP than a Fire Troll?

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    16. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am european, so H1B wouldn't work here. And we have pretty strict rules about most employment. This was something done across multiple countries, I believe. Including the US of course, but also many others.

    17. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "assembling a phone is the equivalent of playing with Lego's. its simple tedious work. why would i want my kids to aspire to this kind of work?"

      its difficult for kid's, your rite thair. playing with lego's, ball's, card's or bicycle's its more fun.

    18. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 2

      Because not everybody's kids have the ability do those kind of things. You need a complete economic scale of jobs to acheive resonably full employement. If everybody in the world developed battery tech and communication standards, there'd be nothing to eat, no roads to drive on, nowhere to buy stuff. As they say, "The World Needs Ditch Diggers, too..."

    19. Re:No good news in that by Plammox · · Score: 1

      Assembly techology development is closely linked to the rest of the design, be it casing, antenna, battery and display. Make no mistake, assembly and assembly development (normally co-located on the same site) is no monkey work. And our far-eastern friends in China, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc. are excelling at this. At a low price, even.

    20. Re:No good news in that by crazyjj · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they're all fleeing socialist Finland for communist China.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    21. Re:No good news in that by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The MS deal didn't really have anything to do with it. Nokia lost its way almost a decade ago. They flailed around trying a large number of incompatible things, with no overall direction. The Symbian kernel rewrite was probably the last good thing they did and they failed to couple it with a decent userland, so Symbian programmers were still stuck with APIs that were designed for systems with under 4MB of RAM. They made a few half-hearted attempts at moving to Linux (ignoring the fact that they already had a decent kernel, it was their userland that was the problem), and then seemed to completely lose the plot.

      The MS deal was just another failure to fix the situation, in a long line of similar failures. It wasn't the cause, just another failed attempt at recovery.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    22. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of Apple fans and MS haters may be tempted to cheer...

      Cheer, no; laugh, yes. It was monumentally stupid of Nokia to go all-in with Windows Phone 7 before that platform had demonstrated itself to be viable. Unfortunately, the managers who made that decision will be sheltered while the rank and file take the bullets.

      Honestly, I think that a Google-Apple duopoly of the smartphone market is a bad thing, and wish Winphone posed stronger competition. Perhaps if Nokia had nursed Symbian, or come out with an Android handset line alongside its Winphone line, it could have held on long enough for Winphone to mature and become competitive. Perhaps it still will. (I give it a better shot than RIM at this point.)

    23. Re:No good news in that by crazyjj · · Score: 3, Insightful

      why would i want my kids to aspire to this kind of work?

      If you went to public school, remember all the "slow" kids, and all the others who clearly weren't cut out for college? Well, those kids are adults now and they need jobs just like you do.

      --
      What political party do you join when you don't like Bible-thumpers *or* hippies?
    24. Re:No good news in that by Mr0bvious · · Score: 1

      Really? I'm no economist but I don't think these jobs are lost, the moved elsewhere surely?

      I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of those jobs were lost/moved to Samsung, and I'm pretty sure Samsung products are not primarily made in China. Though I could be wrong, but I thought Samsung manufacture a lot of their products in Vietnam and Taiwan. Not that this makes any difference.

      Don't get me wrong, I really hope the rest of the world can regain some manufacturing capability from those who have the strong hold on it now - but we need to be smarter about it and our governments need to be smarter about it. If we don't make changes ourselves, it's going to be a long drawn out cycle until it comes back around to us (being the western world that's lost its manufacturing capability).

      Personally I saw Nokia's demise as soon as they decided to go with Windows Mobile - I don't have any real hate of Windows Mobile, but it has never proven popular in the past and I couldn't see it catching on fast enough to dig Nokia out of its hole.

      While the job 'losses' are never nice for the workers, their families or their local economies - this surely should not be a surprise to anyone and can only be blamed on Nokia's poor business decisions - and to the casual observer they seemed like obvious bad decisions at the time they were being made and shows that senior management at Nokia are out of touch with the market they are embedded in.

      It's a shame, I always like Nokia phones, but they've offered nothing of interest for years now.

      --
      Never happened. True story.
    25. Re:No good news in that by icecoldkilla · · Score: 1

      The good thing about this will be that eventually all socialism will end, which is great, because all of these countries will run out of other people's money to spend and nobody will loan to them also, because they don't produce anything.

      If you think Finland is a socialist country then you have No Idea what Socialism is.

    26. Re:No good news in that by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Think again. Investors punished Nokia after the announcement of the Microsoft deal. Their stock took a massive hit. Then it took them ONE YEAR to bring a Windows phone to market and in the meantime they killed off their Symbian product.

      All this was in direct relation to the Microsoft deal.

    27. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but over the years they need less. 1 person with a crane will get that ditch dug pretty fast. Sooner or later we may not even need a person to man the crane, but we could need many people to design it.

    28. Re:No good news in that by Asic+Eng · · Score: 3, Insightful

      assembling a phone is the equivalent of playing with Lego's. its simple tedious work. why would i want my kids to aspire to this kind of work?

      They are not just closing plants according to this.

      From the bloomberg article: "The biggest share of cuts will come in research and development, where Nokia is killing whole projects to preserve others that are more important, Chief Financial Officer Timo Ihamuotila said on a call. Sales is the second-biggest area affected and general overhead is third, he said."

      So they are now at the stage where they have to stop developing tomorrow's products in order to pay today's bills.

    29. Re:No good news in that by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      I love how you don't include RIM.

      What you actually meant to say is we need competition from more than two companies. Whether or not MS succeeds is irrelevant. The fact that Google could emerge as power player late in the mobile market is an example that other companies can compete.

    30. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They could easily choose a different strategy and save the company. E.g. they could become OS-agnostic, just like Samsung: produce N9-like phone in both Maemo, Android and WP7 version, and see what sells best. I'm 100% sure lots of people would buy Android version of this phone because of the great looks and mature OS.
      Killing Symbian too early, killing Maemo right after it was finally ready to sell and going to WP7 only was the most stupid decision ever.

      I hope they eventually going to realize it and give that infiltrator from Microsoft the treatment he deserves.

    31. Re:No good news in that by HolyLime · · Score: 1

      Actually that isn't such a bad thought. Set the Corporate tax rate to zero, or legislate that COMPANY profits can not be taxed, but levy taxes against the people that work for that company. I don't think this is a new or original idea, but I felt it should at least be voiced. If someone knows about any economic sources that comment on these type of policies I would love to look at them.

    32. Re:No good news in that by Bigby · · Score: 1

      There have already been 20k+ jobs gained by competitors at the expense of Nokia. So while 20k families have been helped. I say less than 10k, because there has to be husband/wife or parent/child employed there somewhere.

      Net gain for society (but likely not Finland).

    33. Re:No good news in that by Nexus7 · · Score: 1

      Ah, but then you're assuming he doesn't live in Republico-Fox-News-world.

    34. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 1

      Local governments do this all the time with things like property tax abatements. Trade one kind of tax income for (hopefully more) of another, or for other less direct benefit (people with jobs put less strain on government resources, for example)

    35. Re:No good news in that by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Too many people are arguing pro-Finish type of socialism, but that's why Finland is going to lose more and more jobs.

      This argument would be a lot more convincing if the economies of more capitalist countries were booming. In case you hadn't noticed, they're not.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    36. Re:No good news in that by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Too many people are arguing pro-Finish type of socialism, but that's why Finland is going to lose more and more jobs. All socialists do is drive investment capital out of their countries somewhere else. Good for 'somewhere else', bad for those socialist countries.

      And investment capital doesn't flee the US for China and India because it's cheaper there? In capitalism, money goes where the slave labor is cheapest, the working conditions poorest and the regulations the weakest. You get fucked until you're the cheapest bidder for the job and by moving the jobs around workers are forced to underbid each other until they're all dirt poor. This whole "workers must stand up for themselves" and fight for social security and decent working conditions through laws and unions is just a communism. You hear that sound? It's the 1% laughing over you.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    37. Re:No good news in that by micahraleigh · · Score: 1

      How is China capitalist? It is certainly more capitalist than it was 10 years ago, but its level of central planning is comparable to European countries.

    38. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really hate the whole capitalist / socialist debate because the whole thing is stupid like localman57 hinted at. The problem with any ideological system is that they try to reduce people to simple, consistent groups. But people are not simple and they are not consistent. Anyone who has ever mowed their neighbor's law because their mower was broke, or they were sick is a socialist. Anyone who has ever bought an overpriced candy bar to support some annoying kids program is a socialist. Anyone who has ever bought an oreo over value brand because they taste better and the cost is worth it is a capitalist. So is anyone who has ever bought the value brand because oreos are too damn expensive and not worth it.

      People are all socialists because we come from families, villages and towns that support each other. We are also capitalists because we're all selfish and want to get as much as we can for the work we do. Anyone who claims that one or the other is the only true way is either a fool, or lying in order to manipulate other fools,

    39. Re:No good news in that by bug1 · · Score: 1

      Its pretty empty headed to show sympathy for the symptoms if you ignore the cause.

      Every man and their dog told them that MS wasnt going to save them, but they took the money.

    40. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      plus there was a longshot chance that Windows Phone 8 could have made a dent in the market. It obviously hasn't yet,

      Just a hypothetical, but that might be because it hasn't been released yet.

    41. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting anon from Finland for obvious reasons. Economically speaking here in Finland another major IT (player) service provider has decided to cut about 20% of its staff as well by the end of this year. That's another couple thousand jobs plus now this news from Nokia. Future prognosis of the Finnish IT industry are not looking well.

    42. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's also a taboo to mention, but burning platforms are still selling more than MS platform despite Elop declaring them dead publicly for no good reason except for sucking ms cock.

    43. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I dare you to name one european country that practices a central planning economy...

    44. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There's not a good description for what China is. I use the term "caplitalist" with regard to the externalities (pushing your costs off on society) with regard to how they do business. Being able to dump heavy metals directly into the local river, for example, makes you competitive against companies that operate with more restricitons. China has been described as a lawless country with lots of laws on the books. Ability to do business outside of law is very free-market.

      But, you're right. There are still large aspects of state run economics, particularly in the banking sector.

    45. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The good thing about this will be that eventually all socialism will end

      Nope, this will lead to MORE socialism. Those 10000 workers will now look to collect government welfare. They'll lean to the left as they think government "helped" them in their time of need.

      all of these countries will run out of other people's money to spend and nobody will loan to them also, because they don't produce anything.

      They're not going to run out of money. Remember: they are the government. They have the threat of violence on their side. they won't run out of money because YOU won't run out of money (since you over produce and/or under consume). Whatever you make, they'll forcefully take through the whole "global economy". You might think you're safe now, but they'll come for you eventually.

    46. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Score: 6, "Whydoesn'tanyoneelseunderstandthis?")

    47. Re:No good news in that by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Actually it's helping companies massively. On one hand, weakening euro means easier exports (since they can't do what US did and just inflate currency to help exports due to ECB). On the other hand worsening economic climate means employer's market where employees have to give more and more to employer for less returns.

    48. Re:No good news in that by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They brought it on themselves, and have only themselves to blame.

      In all seriousness, Nokia sat around on its ass all smug and secure for way too long after the iPhone detonated, then redefined the market. Samsung, HTC, and many others busted ass to remake themselves and their products into credible contenders. Nokia sat around and watched their R&D flounder around, thinking they had all the time in the world to do something about it, all while pointing at Symbian's (then) massive dominance of the global smartphone markets. They then had a chance to make a clean break and start fresh, but they decided to back the wrong horse (with a nudge from their new Microsoftie CEO, natch).

      Moral of the story? Apparently it's two-fold:
      1) If you're on top, don't sit around on your ass all complacent about it.
      2) Never hire anyone who has previously worked as a Microsoft executive. They *will* fuck you over.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    49. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 2

      Right on. Sometimes, it's in our common greater good to do things that aren't in our individual good (e.g. pay to educate your neighbor's children, or prevent a total collapse of an industry, such as the auto or banking systems, recently). In these cases, we revert to a socialist system, which is run by the government because they're the only ones with the stick to make everybody participate.

      In other cases, we're willing to see our neighbor suffer (e.g. have his business go bankrupt) because we're confident that this preening will lead to a stronger society overall.

      Obviously, everybody tries to game the system, so it doesn't always work out.

    50. Re:No good news in that by k(wi)r(kipedia) · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How is China capitalist? It is certainly more capitalist than it was 10 years ago, but its level of central planning is comparable to European countries.

      Central planning isn't incompatible with capitalism. Nazi Germany was capitalist and fascist. Private citizens were free to make money so long as they belonged to the privileged race and had the right connections. So okay, it's a form of "crony" capitalism but it's capitalism nonetheless.

    51. Re:No good news in that by symbolset · · Score: 5, Informative

      The iPhone proved a hugely popular choice and the smartphone started to boom. Established players Palm, Nokia, RIM, Motorola Mobility, Samsung, HTC and LG faced a difficult choice as they clearly needed a new winner. Palm made the wrong choice to go their own way and imploded. Nokia went their own way and suffered but survived on momentum. RIM continued to go their own way, confident their customers were committed due to the nature of their offering. When Windows phone came out, almost all the survivors hedged their bets with it but RIM persisted in continuing to go their own way and imploded. When Windows Phone proved an unpopular choice most of the survivors kept it as a hedge but emphasized their alternative, but for some reason Nokia bet the farm on it and imploded.

      - History of Smartphone Economics, 2009-2012.

      "If you bet the farm often enough eventually you win a factory job."

      - Anonymous

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    52. Re:No good news in that by drkstr1 · · Score: 1

      A lot of Apple fans and MS haters may be tempted to cheer, but the loss of 10,000 jobs in this economy means 10,000 families whose lives will been up-ended and that sucks no matter what phone you're rooting for.

      And what's more, according to the article, a third of these job losses will come from Finland, with more in Germany and Canada. Decent western factory jobs seem to be going the way of the Dodo bird. Are there any phones still actually being manufactured in the first world? Even if Nokia recovers, what are the odds that those jobs won't reappear in Finland, but in China?

      I don't think many people here will be cheering for this one. Nokia has always (well until recently) been near and dear to many techies hearts.

      I still have fond memories of setting up my own land-line dial up server so I could connect to the Internet with the analog modem in my Nokia 9290. Their platform was very open, and seemed to encourage curios tinkering. For normal consumers, their products were well built, user friendly, and always ahead of their time. Nokia's failing was not their technology, but rather their marketing.

      It will be a sad day when the last remnants of the old Nokia is gone for good.

      --
      Fanboy Status: Apache Flex, C#, Eclipse, KDE, Pirate Party, Ron Paul, Slackware, Windows 7
    53. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But people are not simple and they are not consistent.

      Oh, there are people who are hilariously simple and consistent. They are the ones who constantly engage in the capitalist/socialist debate.

      The funniest ones are libertarians. They consistently hate on almost every other ideology equally (whereas the old capitalist/socialist tends to focus only on their counterpart)

    54. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      mostly agree. My view from within (it's my last day tomorrow) is that the real thrashing only started 5 years ago. Changing gui framework repeatedly decimated developer interest each time. There basically was no 'platform'. I foretold this final outcome on feb11as did many others. Elop was certainly the person who put nokia on the directed downward spiral. The whole board is responsible, of course.
      Fatphil, posting AC only as i' not at my desktop with memoised passwords, i'm on a boat to finland to return my work stuff.

    55. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      To add a little perspective (and some numbers), Nokia stock fell 14% when the partnership was announced. That took their share price to 7.00 Euros. Today, Nokia are trading at 2.35 USD. Nokia's market capitalization is $8.8 Billion.

      Considering all the mobile phone tech they have pioneered down the years, you have to think that their patent portfolio alone is worth more than $8.8 Billion to a few big players. Their brand name is still recognized worldwide, too.

      Enter the asset strippers ......

    56. Re:No good news in that by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The sweet taste of vindication, it turns to ashes in your mouth.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    57. Re:No good news in that by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      China is a command economy, playing capitalist on the global versus local scale. So, whether you call them capitalist is just a matter of perspective.

    58. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 1

      I think the ones that are really funny are the Anarchists. We knew a couple of college-educated ones that used to like to steal cheap, insignificant stuff like your can-opener when they went to parties, to show everybody how cool they were. Then they'd tell you about it later. People like that often have very shallow beliefs. I'm guessing they'd go ahead and call the cops if you hit 'em with a pipe wrench... They're not allowed in our house anymore, btw...

      Also, my favorite libertarian article:

      http://www.theonion.com/articles/libertarian-reluctantly-calls-fire-department,4651/

    59. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thoroughly hope, Stephen Elop is one of those 10000

    60. Re:No good news in that by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Somebody else still might offer "0 percent corporate tax base for 10 years, and for $1 a 99 year lease on an abandoned military base."

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    61. Re:No good news in that by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      focusing on IP and letting the dumb kids do all the manufacturing is why China grew and the US fell. Are you just trolling? Do you really believe what your saying, in the face of how horribly it goes for the IP folks?

    62. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 1

      Which leads increasingly to a service economy which provide things that people don't want made by machines, such as meals, art, and foot massages.

      But, If you're ever played Monopoly, you know that whomever owns the capital (e.g. the crane) will eventually end up owning nearly everything of value. These people simply don't need the services of everyone who has no wealth. This leads to joblessness, poverty, and, eventually, rage and desperation. Then, inevitably, a weath redistribution happens, occationally by vote or more often by violence.

    63. Re:No good news in that by Tridus · · Score: 1

      That's because they expect people to come out of school already able to do exactly what it is they want them to do. You know, rather then training them.

      --
      -- "So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated." - Bill Gates
    64. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with the point you're making, the examples you used are flawed. Helping others of your own volition is neither socialist nor capitalist--it's orthogonal to the debate on economic policy.

      Socialism, in the context of a capitalist vs. socialist debate, essentially boils down to enforcing, via taxation and other government controls, progressive redistribution of wealth, resources, and services, and collective ownership of certain resources and service. The pro-socialism argument is basically that this will result in a net benefit to society where capitalist free market policies result in non-optimal outcomes (e.g., either excessive externalities, social injustices, economic inefficiency in inherently non-competitive "natual monopoly" sectors like utilities, law enforcement, etc.).

      To adjust your examples to accurately reflect socialism, therefore, you need to add the missing ingredient of government/legal mandate to help. A ham-handed adjustment to your first example would be that you mow your neighbor's lawn because the law requires you to do so if/when his lawnmower is broken. This would be a classic redistribution from haves (you, with your working lawnmower) to have-nots (your neighbor, with his broken lawnmower) with the intention of a collective benefit to society (everyone's lawns look nice, property values stay high).

      To balance things out with an extreme free market capitalist example, consider what would happen if critical public services were not socialized. A police negotiator might show up to a hostage situation, and only negotiate for the release of those hostages who had paid his police company for protection + the hostage/SWAT platinum package. Any families who did not have an existing plan with the PD, or opted out of the platinum package, might be offered the negotiator's services for a premium ("You too could see your loved ones again for one easy payment of $9000, or 10 monthly payments of $999.99. Offer may be subject to credit approval. Successful hostage retrieval not guaranteed. See disclaimer for details.")

    65. Re:No good news in that by bitt3n · · Score: 1

      Decent western factory jobs seem to be going the way of the Dodo bird.

      all this time I thought those things were extinct, but it turns out they just moved to Shanghai.

    66. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the individuals this can be pretty horrible, but on the other hand it's bringing a change that should have happened a long time ago... It's refreshing to see engineers and students at least consider startups and enterpreneurship, instead of just going to work for Nokia without really making a choice.

      Also nice to see other international companies move in -- Intel and others setup shop in Finland _very_ quickly after the Elopocalypse to catch the best engineers that left (or were laid off from) Nokia.

      So all in all, maybe it's not as bad as it seems even in Finland.

    67. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the typical liberal lie. Socialism always leads to a pile of ash when people get tired of living under the boot of another, which always comes with socialism and commie BS. It never works because it runs out of other peoples money. The US is NOT capitalism anymore, that's why its really starting to fail in a lot of ways.

      I know your second grade teacher told you the lie this idiot spouts but whenever someone tells you socialism/communism is good run away fast and make your own living unlike the welfare scum socialism leads too.

    68. Re:No good news in that by digitig · · Score: 1

      It was because they were headed this way that they clutched at the USP of the Microsoft deal. The MS deal isn't the cause of this, it just (unsurprisingly, as you say) didn't stop it.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    69. Re:No good news in that by chrb · · Score: 1

      The good thing about this will be that eventually all socialism will end, which is great

      Rising unemployment will lead to more socialism, not less. The more people are unemployed and destitute, the more people will vote for a government that promises to look after them (socialism) rather than throwing them to the wolves. The only way you can have your dream of "no socialism" is either to make every person employed and wealthy, and thus have no desire or need for government support, or get rid of democracy and instead turn to fascism.

    70. Re:No good news in that by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Nokia used to create great products and be a byword for quality, reliable, cutting edge phones.

      I have read this often on /., but my experince does not agree.

      I bought my first cellphone in 1996. It was a Motorola GSM phone. Shortly after I bought it, my boss and I were both in a meeting with limited signla strength. My Mototola phone could get a signal, his Nokia did not. We had the same choice of networks (both were roaming).

      More recently, I bought several Nokia 6086 phones. All of them suffered from: occasional rapid batttery discharge (the phone would get hot, run the battery down and battery life would be very short for the next few charges until the battery recovered). The phones also suffered from what I called the "message of death". Some MMS messages would cause the phone to shutdown and (usually) reboot. The phone would cycle through this until (I think) the server decided not to deliver the problematic message. Then, finally, the music player. Yes, this model claimed to play music, but: 1. It could only play one mp3 file at a time -- there did not seem to be a way to get it to play multiple files, 2. It claimed to only play through headphones and not through the speaker, but if you started playing through the headphones and then disconnected them, the music would come out of the speaker. Clearly, the ability to play music was a "checkbox feature" (a feature that is there just to complete a comparison chart, but works so badly that people won't actually use it). Why did I keep buying Nokia 6086 phones? For a while it was about the only non-Blackberry phone that supported T-Mobile's WiFi calling feature.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    71. Re:No good news in that by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      the corporate tax rate trolling in media is one of the most misleading arguments ever.

      The tax rate for huge number (including some of the biggest) corporations in the US right now is already 0%. The bigger you are more likely you can employ 1x10^56 lawyers to get you out of each and every obligation.

      Again, it's ass backwards... but that is what it is like right now because our government is controlled.

    72. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Not true, taxes are just part of the equation, there are also regulations that gov't isn't allowed to do and there is inflation, which destroys savings and investments.

    73. Re:No good news in that by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      If you dig into tax abatements and laws in certain states it turns out the state tax rate for a lot of companies receiving abatements and incentives are actually negative. Some states give out tax refunds in certain situations no matter whether the tax was paid or not.

    74. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Because some socialism is good

      - completely disagree.

      Public schools are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      Public roads are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      Public health initiatives are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      creating externalities that make their current path unsustainable

      - no, the Chinese problem only extends to the government destroying their own currency by printing it to buy US dollars and subsidise US consumer and government involvement in a number of industries (in terms of taxes, regulations and just ownership).

      As China becomes richer and richer, the quality of life will go up there, and the real problem for environment that exists there, will only continue to the extent that the private property rights are not protected.

    75. Re:No good news in that by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 0

      China uses capitalism as a communist tool. Yes, they are capitalist but not in the way you are thinking.

    76. Re:No good news in that by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      You are an extremist by definition.

    77. Re:No good news in that by Nemyst · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A fan is not a rational being. It is a marketing construct made through intensive brainwashing of already impressionable human beings and turned into a buzzword spewing machine. Its sole purpose is to promote the company's products while dissing competitors'.

    78. Re:No good news in that by Hatta · · Score: 1

      All capitalism is crony capitalism.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    79. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 2

      China is much more capitalist than almost anybody else, they have more free market than USA has.

      Here is a debate on it

      and here is a transcript (PDF)

      Obviously the audience was quite biased, too many expatriates, and one of the pro-motion team members was a staunch socialist himself, so totally wrong person to argue pro-capitalism, but in case you can watch it if you want.

    80. Re:No good news in that by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      Political correctness means these kids do not exist. Everyone is supposedly just as intelligent and capable. Concerns of a functional society requiring all sorts of jobs do not enter into the equation.

    81. Re:No good news in that by chrb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How is China capitalist? It is certainly more capitalist than it was 10 years ago

      It depends on how you define capitalism. 10 years ago I watched ARM Chairman Robin Saxby give a keynote speech where he said, "China is wonderful - it's the most capitalist country on Earth." What he meant was that, regardless of the central planning, China was actually a very good environment for doing business. Chinese suppliers were very competitive, and producing low price goods and materials. There were very limited regulations on employment, wages, manufacturing etc. and no need for employers to pay employee taxes, provide health care etc. China didn't even have free education for all children until 2006. That "central planning" that some people despise has led to China having a modern and efficient infrastructure, which in turn makes business more efficient.

      In China, you can hire a person for $200/month, work them 100 hours a week, and fire them on the spot. That is a level of "capitalism" unmatched in Europe or the U.S.

      TIME: Why China Does Capitalism Better than the U.S.

    82. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      So? I am correct, that's all that matters. US founders were extremist, terrorists even by current definition.

    83. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, but then you're assuming he doesn't live in Republico-Fox-News-world.

      Does your city have a fire department? They're funded by taxes. SOCIALISM!!11!1!
      Did your children go to a public school? A government set that up, you know. SOCALSISM!!1!!!1!
      Do you pay money to a municipal garbage collection service? No? Well, maybe you should know you do, when you pay taxes. SCOCIALSISM!!1!1!!
      Do you have roads in your city? Do YOU maintain them? No, of course not, because you're an utter failure of a human being who gets a big scary government to maintain them, and they pay for that with taxes SOCICICLAOLISM!!1!1!!
      How's your health? How's your hospitSOCIALISMSMSISM!!1!!1!

      Isn't it time we cut off the not-privileged and left to live alone in our own Mary Suetopia? Like, say, a gulch somewhere? I read about that in a book, you know. And that book clearly had no government influence, making it good and pure, just like how God intended Homo Corporationalis to be.

      VOTE REPUBLIFOX. For a fever dream world which we're pretty sure will work if all you poor and/or colored people would just shut up and die already so we can get back to managing our large stacks of money.

    84. Re:No good news in that by Wansu · · Score: 4, Insightful

        Then they lost their way, management started all sorts of retarded internal competition games ...

      Bad management is why most of the high paying jobs have disappeared over the last several decades, due either to incompetence, crookedness or a combination of the two. Nokia is just the latest in a long line of mismanaged companies going belly up.

      --
      Wansu, th' chinese sailor
    85. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      US founders were not extremists. If they were extremists they wouldn't even bother with all the formalities of declaring independence or writing a Constitution or forming a government and all that jazz to get away from the British. They'd just run away, then from relative safety bitch about Britain and telling everybody to leave Britain. You know, like how libertarians love to do on slashdot,

    86. Re:No good news in that by bongey · · Score: 2

      The National Socialist German Workers' Party official name (aka Nazi party). The Nazi party hated the Jews(capitalist) where viewed to have money and take advantage of the middle and lower class. The Nazi party blamed Jews for having all the money , taking advantage of the middle, lower classes was the cause of Germany's economic problems.
      Your centrist opinion is shining like rodolf's red nose, or the easter bunny hopping in the yard, or santa's beard.
      Notice all of them are imaginary, just like your centrist view.

    87. Re:No good news in that by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      I love how you don't include RIM.

      That was an oversight on my part. It's just so easy to overlook them these days. I'd like to see RIM recover and produce a new product that's successful (and use a completely different marketing company).

      What you actually meant to say is we need competition from more than two companies. Whether or not MS succeeds is irrelevant. The fact that Google could emerge as power player late in the mobile market is an example that other companies can compete.

      Yes, more than two is important, though the mobile pie is big enough for four, five or more companies. Too many will simply lead to consolidation with users being orphaned, but there is still room for new ideas and products from anyone who wants to take their shot.

    88. Re:No good news in that by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      A lot of Apple fans and MS haters may be tempted to cheer, but the loss of 10,000 jobs in this economy means 10,000 families whose lives will been up-ended and that sucks no matter what phone you're rooting for.

      And what's more, according to the article, a third of these job losses will come from Finland, with more in Germany and Canada. Decent western factory jobs seem to be going the way of the Dodo bird. Are there any phones still actually being manufactured in the first world? Even if Nokia recovers, what are the odds that those jobs won't reappear in Finland, but in China?

      No, Nokia hasn't made much in the first world for years - they had manufacturing centers in much cheaper places. But they too had layoffs. Factory jobs suck - whether you're at Foxconn or in the US. It's all repetitive and boring and doesn't pay well because it's very low-skill (th eones who build up experience can make serious money, but it's rare).

      No, the job losses in Europe and Canada - they're higher paying research and development jobs. Sure some of them will reappear in China and such (usually the more boring testing/QA/gruntwork), but the workforce knowledge doesn't move around that easily. And in fact, those workers are in demand - highly skilled, with specialist knowledge in telephony. You can bet Microsoft and Apple would be extending serious offers purely for the knowledgebase.

      Have to admit though, it's pretty surprising that one phone on one carrier could shake up an industry. Nokia and RIM are basically the two companies left, the former had a significant non-smartphone business, the latter is basically treading water. But Symbian basically died (it's on life support), WinMo is dead (Windows Phone is not next-gen WinMo), PalmOS is dead.

      OTOH, we see a new revival - Android barely existed 5 years ago, and iOS was hardly anything back then either (it didn't have apps, MMS, or even 3G). WinMo ODMs became top-line companies (e.g., HTC).

      Still hard to believe just one phone did it. It only worked on one (crappy) carrier. And was offered in one market (the US). Perhaps that's why everyone else ignored it - the target market was tiny (Nokia was huge outside North America, so a phone only released in the US is a threat? RIM ditto - probably the same thinking as /. - it's all marketing and no substance, it'll die in a year as a flop. Microsoft, well WinMo has a feature list 10 times longer than it.)

    89. Re:No good news in that by SilenceBE · · Score: 1

      The MS deal for me was the reason that my current phone is a non Nokia phone where all my previous phones has been Nokia devices.

      I was always very happy of the quality of my Nokia phones but if Nokia fails to deliver what I want as a customer then I'm forced to say goodbye and pick a brand that wants to sell what I ask for.

      I'm not a MS hater but I just don't care for Windows Phones. For me Nokia went from my first consideration when buying a new phone, but now they aren't even on my list anymore.

    90. Re:No good news in that by plover · · Score: 1

      plus there was a longshot chance that Windows Phone 8 could have made a dent in the market. It obviously hasn't yet,

      Just a hypothetical, but that might be because it hasn't been released yet.

      oops, confused my Windows 8 with WP7.

      --
      John
    91. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      The blame for this precipitous decline for this lies firmly with Elop, who acts more in the interest of his former employer than shareholders or employees of Nokia. However, Nokia shareholders like sheep had nothing to say about it and are now well and truly shorn. It is hard to feel a great deal of sympathy for them. Employees, yes that is sad, but where Nokia falls will rise a hundred startups, we have seen this play out many times before.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    92. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      it was obvious long before Microsoft had anything to do with it, and this certainly isn't Microsoft's fault

      That is not clear by any means. A more plausible take on it is that Microsoft preys on the weak.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    93. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They could easily choose a different strategy and save the company.

      Fire Elop and sue Microsoft?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    94. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 2

      Wait, Google buys Nokia and fires Elop. No, Facebook buys Nokia and fires Elop. No, Ebay buys Nokia and fires Elop.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    95. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I sense a great disturbance...as if millions of Microsoft fanboys screamed out...and were suddenly silenced."

    96. Re:No good news in that by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      I believe the point is that it only takes one skilled guy to come up with the design of a case for an object which is reproduced a few million times.

      The assembly is then broken down into simple one-step procedures, which you assign to one worker apiece. Hence assembly line. This produces jobs where you do the same single motion, day in, day out. Until the day comes that they make a robot dextrous enough to do your step, then you are out of a job.

      Unless bespoke boutique mobile phone case design really takes off (hint : it won't, for all sorts of social and economic reasons), the majority of jobs in any mass production economy are going to be repetitive, and dull, and under constant threat of replacement with a robot, and as such, low paid. The research, development, design, and prototyping work is by it's very nature, going to be limited to a small group of workers.

    97. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The MS deal didn't really have anything to do with it

      Oh which planet? Note: NOK dropped 20% the day the Microsoft sellout was announced. Burning platforms indeed.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    98. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      They brought it on themselves, and have only themselves to blame.

      Really? You mean to tell me there was no malfeasance by Elop or under the table dealing by Microsoft?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    99. Re:No good news in that by plover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They could go Android, sure, but Android phones are almost commodity phones, where the handset manufacturer isn't adding enough value to make them differentiators. That means as a customer, I could pick up an LG or HTC or Motorola or Samsung and get a pretty similar phone. And that means they all compete on price. That puts the Nokia phones up against the manufacturing might of China, which means that margins would start out razor thin and fade quickly to non-existent.

      Symbian appealed to a hundred thousand early-adopter phone geeks, but they were not getting any mass market share from the first-time smartphone buyers, who were heading straight to Android or iPhone (depending primarily on the contents of their wallets.) Maemo would have cannibalized that market, but would not have taken any buyers away from the two big players. The WP7 deal came with the backing of Microsoft, which provided a lot more marketing clout than Nokia is capable of delivering these days.

      When you're trying to compete, it's best to have a differentiator that people will actually pay for. Symbian was no longer it, and Maemo would never have been it. They bet that WP7 might have been it. It's not looking great so far, but Microsoft is a lot better backed than anyone else courting Nokia.

      --
      John
    100. Re:No good news in that by dAzED1 · · Score: 1

      do you really have no idea how inane what you just said, sounds? If there is money, it isn't communism. Capitalism and communism are almost 180 degrees apart from each other.

    101. Re:No good news in that by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I'm not cheering, I'm furious. There was no reason for this to happen. Some group of suits decided or were coerced into choosing to bet the company on a platform obviously unlikely (in today's economy) to acquire significant market share, and people not involved in the decision suffer for it. It's inexcusable.

      This is not about Windows Phone 7 failing, it's about people being out of work through bad decisions made by upper management. And as you pointed out, even if the company somehow manages to survive, those jobs are probably lost forever.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    102. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Getting Qt working well on Android and iOS and marketing it as a platform could have been a lot more successful.

      They can still do that if they fire Elop. And they can start with vanilla Android to tide them over through the QA period. Getting QT up on Android would take what? Two weeks for somebody who knows what they're doing?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    103. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They could go Android, sure, but Android phones are almost commodity phones, where the handset manufacturer isn't adding enough value to make them differentiators.

      You know, everyone says this, and while I'm not going to argue it's not true, I will point out that Android phones are actually selling, as opposed to Windows Phones. A differentiator only matters if it can actually sell.

    104. Re:No good news in that by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I should add that it's also entirely obvious that this would happen since the MS deal.

      That's what makes me so angry. Nokia was a great company once, that made some great products. Excuse me while I go take my blood pressure medicine.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    105. Re:No good news in that by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      So? That could equally mean that the shareholders took it as an indication that the new management had no idea how to correct the downwards spiral.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    106. Re:No good news in that by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. No one is cheering the fall of Nokia. Most of us wish they could get their sh*t together, and go back to making excellent, nearly indestructible phones.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    107. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      That could equally mean that the shareholders took it as an indication that the new management had no idea how to correct the downwards spiral.

      You can take it that way if you like, if you want to appear disingenuous.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    108. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      don't forget the iSheep who ran after shiny ui with zero substance rather than solid, feature-rich phones which did not limit the functionality of any tech (eg, bluetooth) to please cell networks.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    109. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Recently read that about 30% of the employers has troubles finding qualified people to fill in the functions.

      A lot of that is due to not being willing to pay the needed salaries to attract those qualified people.

    110. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      Too many people are arguing pro-Finish type of socialism, but that's why Finland is going to lose more and more jobs.

      I love how this is DIRECTLY the fault of Nokia making completely ass-retarded decisions, and yet you try to find some way to pin it on government, rather than having the company take responsibility for itself.

      Socialism has nothing to do with this. This is ENTIRELY the fault of Nokia making shit that people don't want.

    111. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      exactly. nokia must not become just another android phone manufacturer. but to do that they need extensive research, which they did. until now. they're closing down r&d right and left. its utter lack of ambition that will finally kill nokia or reduce it to the level of what microsoft is in software now.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    112. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 2

      nokia bought navteq a few years ago for 8 billion. sad to see that now its own worth is 8 billion.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    113. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      China is much more capitalist than almost anybody else, they have more free market than USA has.

      Bullshit. They have even more of those "regulations" you love to bitch and moan about. Remember the whole thing with Google wanting to enter China, and all the shit they had to do to be allowed to do business there?

    114. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      maybe someone played a joke on you. get this in your head: in signal reception, NOKIA ALWAYS WINS. especially against motorola, which has always been pos.
      ps: however, the lumia phones are average in this regard, a tell tale sign that nokia is indeed gone now.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    115. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You can disagree all you want, but at the end of the day, you have absolutely nothing to back up your position.

      And if you're trying to hold China up as someone who respects "private property rights", then clearly you have tried too hard, and exposed yourself for the troll you are.

    116. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      But you're not correct.

    117. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      assembling a phone is the equivalent of playing with Lego's. its simple tedious work. why would i want my kids to aspire to this kind of work?

      Because they would probably like to eat. While it's not the ideal type of job, having a good factory job is FAR, FAR better than having no job at all.

      What people like you forget is that not everyone is cut out for the knowledge type jobs that you think everyone should have. What is going to happen to those people?

    118. Re:No good news in that by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The closest would probably the France although they prefer to call it dirigisme. One example was their initiative to move to nuclear power generation and high-speed electric rail after the 1970s oil crisis which was state funded and highly successful. Today they are building light rail all over the country at an unprecedented level.

    119. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      And those people who realistically could only be manning the crane, and not designing it? What happens to them?

    120. Re:No good news in that by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      I would call that an Evangelist, not a Fan.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    121. Re:No good news in that by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      We have this sequence of events:
      1. Nokia loses direction
      2. Nokia flails around
      3. Reports of lack of strategy and poor management come out of Nokia
      4. New CEO is hired, supposed to turn the company around
      5. New CEO makes decisions that seem stupid to everyone else

      Now, which do you think are more likely, that 4 propped up the share price dip that should have come from 1-3, in the hope that he'd actually do as promised and provide a sensible strategy, or that the dip was caused by the decision itself. Before you answer, note that the share price drop after the February announcement returned Nokia's shares to the same value that they had held in August 2010, just before Elop took over, which was 30% lower than it had been a few months earlier and a quarter of what it was in 2008...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    122. Re:No good news in that by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      "Somewhere in the middle, a resonably free enterprise system with some government sponsored investment and a public safety net is where you're going to get the best overal quality of life over the span of decades."

      How do you arrive at this conclusion?
      I'm not arguing for either capitalism or socialism... but taking two systems and mixing them doesn't automatically make the best system.

      Classic car analogy coming up:
      If two sides want to build a car.
      One side wants a hummer for its ruggedness and carrying capacity.
      The other side wants a small Civic for its fuel economy and agility.

      Compromising by taking the body of Hummer with the engine of a Civic isn't going to be a better compromise.

      As a matter of fact, you'll end up with a car that is worse than either the Hummer or Civic on its own.

      If I were to place my bets... I would actually bet on the end of the mixed-market economy. Let's remember, we're dealing with a fairly short time span here. The modern mixed-market economy is only 50 years old at the most... and I would argue has been completely financed via debt and economic growth... both of which can't grow forever and we're seeing it unravel.

      My bets on the future are either a more libertarian future or a heavily socialized/protectionist one.

    123. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      reminds me: i used to write python scripts in my n95 before most people knew what a 'smart'phone was supposed to be.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    124. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      No they don't.

      The regulations that are really stifling the economy they do not have. These regulations are all part of the executive branch, all the shit that everyday business has to deal with.

      EPA, FDA, FCC, FAA, FHA, HUD, FDIC, SS, Medicare, minimum wage laws, all types of labour discrimination laws, all types of regulations and licenses for all types of activities, departments that regulate all of that, dep't of energy, education, commerce, interior, agriculture, small business, etc.

      There are millions of regulations in USA that don't exist in China.

      There are income taxes in USA that don't exist in China neither on the books or in real life.

      China is still mostly a cash economy, no IRS can meddle and have all the knowledge and information.

      When a guy wants to sell popcorn, he figures his costs and approximates his sales, saves money, buys a machine and supplies, puts a stand on a corner somewhere, he DOES NOT CARE ABOUT ANY LICENSE, he does not need to win any lottery and buy a sticker or a marker or a badge.

      You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, you have no idea what regulations are, you have fucking clue what it means to have to be liable to all sorts of gov't regulations that allow EITHER employees or customers to sue somebody.

      Just the amount of legal liability that US gov't adds to a business makes businesses want to minimise their hiring.

      In China people save money and they make loans to each other, family members, friends loan money to each other and that's how many small businesses start.

      They buy equipment, they rent space, they hire help. They may have to buy some politician, but that is much FASTER than the processes that exist in USA, where a supposedly 'capitalist' society really puts a bunch of bureaucratic processes in front of entrepreneurs that are much harder to overcome than just simply paying a bribe.

      A bribe is NOTHING, cost of doing business, a process that is set up by various gov't agencies, all of which are enforced with police action or FBI or other armed gov't agents is much more totalitarian or fascist than simply paying a bribe to some local party member to open a small shoe factory.

      Cheers.

    125. Re:No good news in that by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      maybe someone played a joke on you. get this in your head: in signal reception, NOKIA ALWAYS WINS. especially against motorola

      Maybe in recent years, but not in the mid nineties. Around that time, my wife had a similar (Motorola) phone and went on a bus trip with some friends. At one point in the trip, she was the only person with reception.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    126. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      No they don't.

      Yes, they do. They're just not aimed at protecting people, and rather allowing the state to spy on everyone, so you don't like them. You hate the idea that companies have to comply to safety standards, or that they can't simply throw pollution anywhere, because somehow you think it wouldn't happen to you.

      And somehow you think that "bribes" are not regulation, and don't stifle business. You truly have no fucking clue what you're talking about. What's so different about a bribe that it can simply be the "cost of doing business", but making sure you have proper waste disposal is "crushing business"?

    127. Re:No good news in that by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      You don't pay tuition in Finland unlike in most of the US or even several other countries in the EU. It is a mixed economy (most countries today have a mixed economic system) with several socialist aspects.

    128. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      You do appear disingenuous you know. Read this blog and tell me if you disagree with the numbers. Which make a liar of you, or a dunce at best.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    129. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter what the product is, Nokia can't compete with Apple in manufacturing costs and flexibilities, that's that.

    130. Re:No good news in that by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      in the mid-nineties i was 5-6 years old, so i can't say anything. what i said applies to the post 2000 years.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    131. Re:No good news in that by plover · · Score: 1

      A differentiator only matters if it can actually sell.

      And that's why I said "there was a longshot chance". But until a product is in the market, you don't know what's going to sell or not. Microsoft knew it was going to be hard to break into the market with WP7, especially after the flops of their WinCE crap having poisoned their name in the mobile phone world, but they completely reinvented their phone OS, followed best practices in developing it and have poured a lot of money into creating a quality product, so they think they have a chance against Android. And since Nokia already knew they were fading rapidly, they were willing to take that bet.

      But yeah, this will probably be another Betamax / VHS battle, where a lot of people have already proved they are willing to pay less for cheap and buggy. (We can't deny that there aren't a lot more Android bugs and malware out there than on the iOS platform.) But there's already someone dominating the "high-quality / high-price phone OS" space, and that's really who Microsoft is going to have to compete with.

      --
      John
    132. Re:No good news in that by quacking+duck · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh, not this "Nazis were socialists--it's even in their name!" myth again. You didn't outright say it, but implying they hated the Jews because they were capitalist leaves no doubt. Undoing mods to reply to this nonsense.

      The official name of North Korea is Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Pretty damn sure they aren't democratic, but by your logic they call themselves that, so they must be, right?

      The Nazis used a socialist platform (and yes, scapegoated the Jews for Germany's socio-economic problems) to get into power. But their first attacks after attaining power were against communists and socialists in 1933, blaming them for a massive fire that gutted the Reichstag (parliament) building. Their supporters were arrested and harassed. Left-wing parties were banned. Unions were dissolved. The Nazi party purged its own social-revolutionary wing by massacring its leadership in June 1934 in the "night of the long knives."

      So please, tell me again exactly how the Nazis were actually socialists who hated the Jews because they were capitalist.

    133. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 1
      I think you're trolling. But, none-the-less...

      Public schools are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      What's your alternative? Home schooling? It works good for a handful of people, but isn't viable for most others, due to the fact that the parents simply aren't competent to do it, or are busy doing subsistance level economic activity. There's a reason that poor farmers have been banding together to build one-room school houses for 200 years. Modern private schools aren't viable for the destitute, which makes social movement impossible. This is antithetical to the American experience.

      Public roads are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      This has been established for a couple thousand years. Now I'm sure you're trolling.

      Public health initiatives are good.

      - strongly disagree.

      You've obviously never lived somewhere where a bunch of your neighbors have tuburculosis (sp).

      creating externalities that make their current path unsustainable

      - no, the Chinese problem only extends to the government destroying their own currency by printing it to buy US dollars and subsidise US consumer and government involvement in a number of industries (in terms of taxes, regulations and just ownership).

      As China becomes richer and richer, the quality of life will go up there, and the real problem for environment that exists there, will only continue to the extent that the private property rights are not protected.

      The Chinese have mortgaged there entire environment - the actual land - by polluting it to an extent that is unimaginable in the US. This is a real, concrete thing that they have done. It cannot be undone (Look at what the California Air Resouces Board has done to try to clean up LA, and it's problems pale compared to Wuhan or Beijing's). The average lifespan in China is dropping, not going up. Most of what they've gotten in return is a bunch of fiat currency, and treasury bonds. All of which are backed by nothing but people's beliefs and intentions. And even if people continue to believe in those things, it's questionable whether the total value of all of it is sufficent to reverse the concrete harm that has been done.

    134. Re:No good news in that by Jungle+guy · · Score: 1

      Are you sure that european companies are benefiting from the current economic downturn? Companies are selling less, and earnings are going downhill. It will take some times for european companies to benefit from the depreciation of the euro against the dollar (with an increase in exports), but the negative effects are felt immediatly: suplies get more expensive, and the purchasing power of consumers diminish.

    135. Re:No good news in that by Pope · · Score: 1

      2) Never hire anyone who has previously worked as a Microsoft executive. They *will* fuck you over.

      Remember all those workstation companies like DEC, SGI and Sun, who all had great machines running under their own *NIX systems, and then all bought into going x86 and Itanium and Windows NT?
      Yeah.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    136. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And those people who realistically could only be manning the crane, and not designing it? What happens to them?

      Preferably, they die quickly so I don't have to look at them.

      I mean, do you understand what my brain does when it sees the suffering of the pathetic plebs? It's this weird feeling that... oh, I don't know, it's like a small anxiety, like when I don't know if the champagne I'll be bathing in tonight comes from an acceptable vintage or not, but more personal, like it's somehow MY fault, as opposed to the worthless soon-to-be-fired servants who can't figure this simple thing out. In fact, my servants tell me there's this word for that feeling, hang on, I wrote it down... um... "gilt"? Does that sound familiar to anyone? Maybe it's "giult" or something, they said there was a letter "u" in there somewhere.

      Look, point is, I've got the research teams I bought with my stock deals working day and night to cure this minor mental problem of mine so I won't feel this... what was it... "gilt"... again. THEN I can improve my financial efficiency by 14.235512% per fiscal quarter. But until then, it'd be best if those people you were talking about would just die and decompose quickly so I don't ever have to see them dirtying my field of vision.

    137. Re:No good news in that by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      The first iPod was hardly a success either. It was only much later that it got sold in droves. The curious thing is if Apple hadn't gone into the cellphone market eventually they would have lost their high-end (and high margin) music player business to cellphones anyway so they did the right move. It remains to be seen how Apple will survive without Steve Jobs however. They didn't do a great job last time he left.

    138. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever agreement that the two companies signed into no doubt was carefully crafted by Redmond's legion of lawyers to protect them from any liability for failure, while assuring them of the greatest benefit from any success.

    139. Re:No good news in that by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      There was plenty of both, but tell me - who made the decision to take Elop on, and who got themselves into such a position in the first place?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    140. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I think you're trolling. But, none-the-less...

      - I don't get it. I suppose you never saw my comments before and you clearly haven't looked at my journal. What do you mean by 'trolling'? Do you think I am saying something that I do not in fact believe in? Do you think everybody must agree with your position and anybody disagreeing with it is 'trolling'?

      Does that make you just ignorant or does it also make you arrogant?

      What's your alternative? Home schooling?

      - everything except government being involved in it. Whatever the market comes up with, be it homeschooling, private schools, internet schools, NO schools, whatever the fuck people want in the market as long as it's completely VOLUNTARY.

      This has been established for a couple thousand years

      - this is political bullshit, gov't is not needed to build any infrastructure, that's how all infrastructure was built in USA for example BEFORE any gov't involvement in it that started after Theodore Roosevelt and on and on.

      I have a comment on it from a couple of years ago, I still remember. Saying that I am 'trolling' on this, what does that mean again?

      You've obviously never lived somewhere where a bunch of your neighbors have tuburculosis (sp).

      - really?
      1. You don't know me, so switching to a personal attack, isn't THAT trolling?
      2. I lived in so many places, you haven't visited that many in your life.
      3. This is your argument FOR gov't health care? Pffft. Why should I say anything in this paragraph? By the way, I have a journal entry on this, with data points and a bunch of data.

      Oh, throw in the SS, Minimum wage and inflation, illegality of income taxes, something on USPS and the latest developments from Sweden for good measure.

      The Chinese have mortgaged there entire environment - the actual land - by polluting it to an extent that is unimaginable in the US.

      - it's the consequence of LACK OF PROPERTY RIGHTS (unlike some idiots in this thread are implying, I am absolutely not saying that China HAS strong property rights). That's what you get when one of the three FUNDAMENTAL individual right is negated by the government.

      The three rights: life, liberty, property.

      Without any one of those three rights no individual can have a true free life and ability to move the socio economic ladder and no economy can be sustainable in the long run.

    141. Re:No good news in that by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Pro tip: Blaming the consumer is only something that only the losers in the corporate world will ever do, and they usually do it in bankruptcy court.

      If they do not buy your product, it is still your fault. If you want to survive, you need to find out why. It could be as simple as crappy marketing, but you still need to fix it if you want to stay alive.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    142. Re:No good news in that by localman57 · · Score: 1

      First, I'd note on number 3 above. When i say "Public Health Initiatives" I'm not advocating a gov't health care system. I am in favor of vaccination efforts, and the ability to put a quick lid on what can become an epidemic, like what the CDC does.

      As to the rest of it, it's all fine, but most of it is 18th century think. Almost none of it scales to a modern economy. The idea of banding together to build a dirt road through your town is in fact very viable without a central, national government. But a freeway system isn't.

      And strong property rights alone aren't the solution to environmental problems; regulations are. Saying "You can do as you like with your property" means that if you like, you can dump mercury into the ground, on your property. The fact that your neighbor's kids are gonna be brain damaged from the well water -- The well on their property -- isn't your problem. The only solution to this is a government, restricting your liberty, telling you that you can't do that.

    143. Re:No good news in that by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      MS might have more money to throw at marketing, but Nokia already had a lot of contacts among the mobile operators, and most people buy their phones through the operators... Ofcourse, this only works to a point - you still have to have phones people want to buy.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    144. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enter the asset strippers ......

      Elop/MS entered them long ago.

      Nokia is now stripping assets, getting rid of everything but windows phone. They're doing it to raise money to pay for the disastrous wp strategy. So MS is effectively the asset strippers, and they're not liquidating the company but rather selling off the pieces and then immediately burning the money.

    145. Re:No good news in that by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Export companies? Hell yes. When there was a banking crisis, export companies were SCREAMING at ECB to let euro inflate. It was utterly devastating business.

    146. Re:No good news in that by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      To be more specific: "US" banking crisis, when dollar nosedived in relation to euro and yen.

    147. Re:No good news in that by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      Nokia went their own way and suffered but survived on momentum.

      Well, if by Nokia way you call going "Left. No, right! No way, turn left again! No, go straight ahead! No, we must go back! Why can't we go all the ways at the same time?!?", that is quite correct. But that is not really a direction...

    148. Re:No good news in that by Raenex · · Score: 2

      Queue the replies from people wanting MS to suffer at the expense of Nokia employees

      You can add me to that list. Microsoft for a long time was an abusive monopoly, and they still have a very profitable monopoly on the desktop, even if that market is at risk. While Android isn't as open as it could be, it's at least a big step in the right direction.

      Sorry for those Nokia employees, but if you're working on behalf of a company that I consider harmful then I can't root for your success.

    149. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I am in favor of vaccination efforts, and the ability to put a quick lid on what can become an epidemic, like what the CDC does.

      - this immediately violates the right to liberty, life and property.

      Right to freedom is violated when any gov't agency decides it has dominion over a person for reasons that are unauthorised by the Constitution.

      Right to property is violated when gov't forces people to do something to their own most important property - their own bodies, that people may not want to do.

      So vaccinations efforts are fine by me as long as they are not forced by threat of violence, otherwise it's a criminal activity by gov't thugs.

      Freeway system built by gov't should not exist. By the way, H-1 (Hawaii), funny thing, it's an island.

      Reason it has an 'interstate highway there'? Not to help people move from one state to another, but a way for federal gov't to steal more powers it's not authorised to have.

      Dumping mercury onto the ground on your own property is absolutely fine. If it damages well water that OTHER property owners also share, then it's between them, and it has nothing to do with anything else. There can be no gov't restricting freedoms of individuals for any of these purposes.

    150. Re:No good news in that by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Rising unemployment will lead to more socialism, not less. The more people are unemployed and destitute, the more people will vote for a government that promises to look after them (socialism) rather than throwing them to the wolves.

      Don't be too sure about that. They also start to favour religion more and blindly following politicians that promise to do miracles. All in all, politics gets pretty random and confusing when the shit hits the fan. Take a look at recent Greek elections for examples.

    151. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      There was plenty of both, but tell me - who made the decision to take Elop on...

      Somebody in Redmond?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    152. Re:No good news in that by vakuona · · Score: 1

      In retrospect, it doesn't look like a success, because it went on to become a megahit. But it was a success, otherwise Apple would have stopped selling it.

    153. Re:No good news in that by Flipao · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wait, Google buys Nokia and fires Elop. No, Facebook buys Nokia and fires Elop. No, Ebay buys Nokia and fires Elop.

      Or Microsoft buys Nokia and gives Elop a bonus.

    154. Re:No good news in that by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The National Socialist German Workers' Party official name (aka Nazi party).

      There were some members of NSDAP who believed that it wasn't actually executing on the "socialist" part of its name and its program. Guess what happened to them?..

    155. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Of-course they are booming, China is a much more capitalist country than almost everybody else.

    156. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Investment capital is fleeing USA for China because in USA the investment capital is being destroyed, devalued by inflation. I have a bunch of comments on that, here is one.

      Cheaper labour is only a small part of the overall reason for the flight of capital, the much bigger problem is the inflation caused by the Federal reserve, the taxes that are growing, even when the nominal current taxes are cut a little (during Bush), the real taxes are growing, because the debt is growing, and that's taxes + interest and because of inflation tax and since the government ends up growing as it prints and borrows more, the other problem arises: huge amount of regulations and laws that government uses to promote some businesses and destroy others and have a kind of a command economy that is best described as fascist in nature, where the means of production are nominally owned privately, but the government ends up the real owners of the productive output through the tax code (that is also if it allows your business to exist at all, because government prefers and promotes monopolies, who give a bigger return to the government as they can maintain higher prices).

      I know that somebody is laughing at you, and they are the parasites that reside in the government.

    157. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      And absolutely ZERO of that is the fault of any government. Nokia has just as much access to cheap Chinese labor as Apple does.

    158. Re:No good news in that by kukulcan · · Score: 1

      They could go Android, sure, but Android phones are almost commodity phones, where the handset manufacturer isn't adding enough value to make them differentiators. That means as a customer, I could pick up an LG or HTC or Motorola or Samsung and get a pretty similar phone. And that means they all compete on price. That puts the Nokia phones up against the manufacturing might of China, which means that margins would start out razor thin and fade quickly to non-existent.

      Well, that strategy worked for Samsung, so why shouldn't it work for Nokia, given that, at the time, Nokia had a better position than Samsung?

    159. Re:No good news in that by DamienNightbane · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately the fairness culture in America sent those kids to college along with the people who actually should have gone, and now degrees are completely devalued to the point where people with bachelor's degrees are competing for the same jobs as high school dropouts.

      Meanwhile the trades, where the less academically gifted used to go to earn a good living wage, are pretty much completely ignored in favor of sending everyone to college regardless of if they actually belong there and there's now a fairly large deficit of tradesmen.

      Gotta love political correctness.

    160. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Whatever agreement that the two companies signed into no doubt was carefully crafted by Redmond's legion of lawyers to protect them from any liability for failure, while assuring them of the greatest benefit from any success.

      Microsoft has a strong track record of paying out billions in settlements for its illegal activity. I think Microsoft management regards this as license fees for its profitable operations outside the law.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    161. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting point. Thanks.

    162. Re:No good news in that by drkstr1 · · Score: 1

      While we're reminisceing about the good ol' days of Nokia, one of the things I really loved about Symbian was the thriving app eco system. You could get a whole wide range of programs for your phone, emulators, interpreters, games, office, network utilities, you name it. Most of the time they would be donation based freeware or open source. This was all at a time when installing an app on your phone was practically unheard of.

      Then the iphone came out, and suddenly, they invented a "smart phone."

      --
      Fanboy Status: Apache Flex, C#, Eclipse, KDE, Pirate Party, Ron Paul, Slackware, Windows 7
    163. Re:No good news in that by ibic00 · · Score: 1

      Whatever sentiment it is, Nokia is the one who screwed it all up and to be blamed entirely. I pay absolutely no sympathy to this company.

      Years of time was given to Nokia, but it never seems to innovate or improve the products _reasonably_ fast enough to be in line with the technology trend. If you don't perform, you will be flushed way. That's the market and obvious.

      I'd say, Nokia is stupid and deserves it, but I don't see why this has to be related to Apple fans or Microsoft haters (How about Android fans)? In fact, there is no logical relation between these at all. And mentioning Finland & China just sounds ridiculous to me.

    164. Re:No good news in that by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 2

      It really doesn't matter who is disingenious

      Nokia is dead, even if it doesn't know that it's dead

      Microsoft is the one who kills it

      And Elop? This guy is only a hired hand, who pulled the trigger

      As a former Nokia user, - I'm using Samsung now, - I just can't tell you how sad I am, looking at the how absolutely clueless the BOD of Nokia really is

      This should serve couples of warnings:

      1. Avoid Microsoft at all costs -

      If you looked at the history of Microsoft, you'll spot a long road littered with dead corporate corps, which, one time or another, were "bed partners" of Microsoft, but ended up being sucked dried and gutted by Microsoft when they are of no more use

       

      2. Avoid hiring any ex-Microsoft exec -

      You will never know what are their intentions

      Elop is one fine example

       

      3. Ensured that the BOD must be personally and financially responsibled for any failure -

      BOD of Nokia IS, for a very large part, responsible for the final collapse of Nokia

      The warning signs are everywhere, that Elop is going to kill Nokia, but still, the BOD of Nokia doesn't care, and didn't do anything to prevent it from happening

      --
      Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    165. Re:No good news in that by Nursie · · Score: 1

      This is the first time anyone has replied to a comment of mine with a Megadeth lyric.

      Sir, I salute you :)

    166. Re:No good news in that by Nursie · · Score: 1

      Nah, they were pretty awesome way-back-when. Remember the 7110? The tiny 8210/8310 ? Definitely cutting edge in their time.

      They even introduced the first phone/computer hybrids I know of in the form of the 9xxx range of 'communicator' devices, really the first attempts at true smartphones (IMHO, and AFAICT).

      The 3310/20/30 range were usually in the free-with-contract band, but they also sold in the hundreds of millions of units, so it's hard to fault that.

    167. Re:No good news in that by bongey · · Score: 1

      Hitler joined the National Socialist German Workers' Party. So it did start out as socialism , Hitler just purged everyone that disagreed with him. Stalin did the same thing also.
      I am just going to stop at this point because trying to compare any modern form of economy or governmental structure to Nazi Germany at the end of WWII really doesn't move the conversation along. The Nazi party was just bat shit crazy, shit they made lamp shades out of the skin of dead Jews.

    168. Re:No good news in that by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      2. Avoid hiring any ex-Microsoft exec -

      You will never know what are their intentions

      Elop is one fine example

      Strangely enough, Paul Maritz is a counterexample.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    169. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to respond without supporting evidence or reasoning in kind:

      No socialism is good. Public schools are the worst thing that has been inflicted upon children since religion. Public roads are horrible and have destroyed city planning. Public health initiatives have bankrupted governments and made heath provision less and less resource efficient. These things are unsustainable to the degree they are implemented. The middle ground of half violent control and half peaceful cooperation is not how better quality of life is achieved.

    170. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love it when people finally give examples of what they are talking about when denouncing capitalism. All the vague nonsense is impossible to oppose but this is factual and I can say something about it. With regards to resource contamination, the chinese government has strict control over the actions businesses take as well as what actions it permits from chinese citizens in reaction to those of businesses, and it is often the case that corporations bribe bureaucrats for exemption from accountability for destroying areas they do not own. Furthermore, chinese citizens are neither able to seek damages because their government protects these corporations from liability for reparations, nor are the chinese citizens able to start up competing businesses nor support new competing businesses that behave more morally because again their government also protects these corporations from competition.

      If you think this is capitalism, then perhaps let us simply talk instead of peace, voluntarism, no institution with a legitimized monopoly on the use of violence within a geographical area, and unhampered freed markets. Because whatever you are talking about has nothing to do with any of those things. This is fascism, just like we have in the US. If you choose to call it capitalism, fine. Just don't be surprised if you see people like myself who advocate no violence against innocent people start using different words to describe what used to be called capitalism. Don't be surprised if we start give up on the word that has been so heavily misused by those who haven't even read a single book by economists who define it. If the orwellian tendency to distort a word to its opposite meaning makes the term 'capitalism' a lost cause, then we will just simply start identifying the thing which we support by a new term.

    171. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give me an example of one of these capitalist countries you are referring to. I ask because I suspect any answer you give will in fact be one that has violent state monopoly over interest rates, money coinage, coercive means to drive citizens savings into stock markets, and on and on I could go. I suspect you will find that those stagnating or failing 'capitalist countries'(a contradiction in terms by the way), are in fact increasingly economically fascistic.

    172. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Nokia is going to move their jobs to China as well, and that is the point, did you only now understood what I said about the jobs leaving?

    173. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The good thing about this will be that eventually all socialism will end, which is great, because all of these countries will run out of other people's money to spend and nobody will loan to them also, because they don't produce anything.

      If you think Finland is a socialist country then you have No Idea what Socialism is.

      Not socialism proper, but it shares some characteristics:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy

    174. Re:No good news in that by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      You have spent 10 years working at Nokia researcher, a world-leader on phone and smart-phones ? You won't stay unemployed long. I am left-leaning (from France, so you might as well call me a communist) but come on, in this industry, competition is fierce. No one with such an experience will stay unemployed long. There are small companies that have a hard time finding good profiles. See this as Nokia sending spores full of its DNA across the whole European innovation ecosystem.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    175. Re:No good news in that by Plammox · · Score: 1

      I believe the point is that it only takes one skilled guy to come up with the design of a case for an object which is reproduced a few million times.

      Yes, I believe that was the point being made. But it's wrong. This is not just one genius coming up with a genius design manufactured *just like that*. It is a result of numerous iterations forth and back between the physical design engineers, the assembly engineers, producing several prototypes, running numerous thermal/mechanical qualification tests for reliability. The cooperation and feedback between design and assembly engineers is crucial if you want to be in front, technologywise.

      The assembly is then broken down into simple one-step procedures, which you assign to one worker apiece. Hence assembly line. This produces jobs where you do the same single motion, day in, day out. Until the day comes that they make a robot dextrous enough to do your step, then you are out of a job.

      That doesn't quite add up with the far-eastern assembly lines I have seen. First of all, everything is usually automated to reach these kinds of volumes in the first place. Second off all, the workers in these factories are more assembly line *operators*, monitoring and setting up the equipment for a new lot. And yes, in some cheaper plants, you have to carry lots from machine to machine, instead of having a fully automated assembly line, but that hardly resembles the Harry Ford'esque impressions that people seem to have. The workers in said plants are far from being "assembly monkeys", many of them are even highly qualified.

      Also: I believe design and manufacturing of modern, high-end smartphone casings are not as trivial as you assert. Even a seemingly trivial activity like Quality Assurance also takes a lot of resources. Imagine the costs associated with replacing 10% of the 20M unit run.

      Point: There are lots of jobs related to manufacturing, and it is most certainly not a trivial activity, and there are many career options in this area, even if you work in the US or Europe. Unskilled job positions are quickly fading out due to automation and low wage pressure, but who in their right mind would encourage their kids to go for a position like that, anyway?

    176. Re:No good news in that by gman99 · · Score: 1

      >>it took them ONE YEAR to bring a Windows phone to market
      8 months. I worked in Nokia at the time and trust me, that was by far the fastest they ever worked. Most of us never expected to see a phone on the market for 18months (the usual time to market assuming they were just taking an existing product and just changing mechanics -- and this was with a new platform that was never used internally)
      Sure, Nokia's imploding; but credit where credit is due. The time to market for (unwanted, apparently) products is ridiculously quick since the Elopcalypse.

    177. Re:No good news in that by quacking+duck · · Score: 1

      Yes it started off claiming to be socialist, but k(wi)r(kipedia) referred to "Nazi Germany", which did not exist until the 1930s, long after Hitler became its leader (in 1921).

      All I'm doing is making sure the dangerous myth perpetuated by far-right, that Nazis were "socialist" (implication: dirty left wing liberal communists). Your latest comment is more moderate so that might not have been your intent, but your first post I replied to was certainly leaning that way.

      We are in total agreement that they were batshit insane.

    178. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      No, you were trying to blame this on government, when the blame lies SOLELY with Nokia's dumbassed decisions.

    179. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      All I see is a bunch of bullshit about "freedom" that doesn't actually concern freedom. It just serves to help you bitch about government.

      You're just as bad as any pro-government person you claim to despise. In fact, you're worse. You do the exact same fucking thing you claim they are doing, which is blaming others for their problems, only you add the hypocrisy of claiming to hate those that do so. You do nothing but blame others, in this case, the government, for your problems, when in reality they are completely your problems.

    180. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      NOPE.

      And your argument would have a shred of credibility if the reason this was happening wasn't solely because of the actions of the company, and absolutely nothing to do with government.

    181. Re:No good news in that by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      You can have all the comments on something you want. Doesn't mean that any of it is true, accurate, or relevant.

    182. Re:No good news in that by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      The only 'dumbass' Nokia decisions so far in terms of where their stuff is made was that they didn't leave Finland earlier, but the reason why they are leaving Finland is the government, and you are the dumbass for not getting it even now.

    183. Re:No good news in that by bongey · · Score: 1

      The real intent was show they where not capitalists, they started as socialists but morphed into something horrible.
      IMPO the political spectrum is not a linear line but more of a circle. If you go to far left or right you really end up in the same place, blind and close minded. If one side grows to big or powerful either companies, government, unions or military all thinking the same way is when everything goes south. I would say read the book The Wave but I am pretty sure you have already read it.
      As far as politics my friends on the right say I am left-wing nut, on the left they say I am right-wing nut. Really I am just math nerd and just apply logic to everything.Every politician is full of shit on either side. Both sides rail the other side and call the opposite side a "Nazi" or some other stupid name calling tatic. The sad state is that most of the general populous falls for it without questioning anything on both sides.

    184. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That puts the Nokia phones up against the manufacturing might of China, which means that margins would start out razor thin and fade quickly to non-existent.

      You were probably thinking Nokia makes their phones in Europe, but my former N900 says it's made in Korea so...

    185. Re:No good news in that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's OK, we're getting there soon enough.

  2. N9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If only they had built on the success of the N9 and its predecessors instead of selling their soul to M$...

    1. Re:N9 by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      It's kind of hard to do this when Apple and Google have hired away all your best people. RIM, MS, and Nokia are all in the same boat - lots of interesting ideas but not enough talented people to deliver.

    2. Re:N9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I respectfully disagree.

      If you placed the engineering teams of apple or google inside Nokia, they would fail.

      Don't underestimate the marketing and management needed to support the engineers and let them build something great.

      They HAVE the N9, Maemo and many other technologies

      They have marketing that scheduled THE most important release in their history on Easter Sunday!!!

      They released a product LESS feature complete than they had in the market

      Management should have said to MS, build something great FIRST

      I'm sure Nokia engineers were never the issue.

  3. RIM SUCKS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another 10,000 jobs lost, they're going down!!! Oh wait that says Nokia up there. Oops.

  4. "negative effects of its transition to a Windows-" by White+Flame · · Score: 5, Funny

    Whaaaaat?!?! Really? This is a tremendously unexpected turn of events that nobody outside of your boardroom dealings would have EVER suspected!

  5. Nokia always made the best hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Nokia always made the best hardware. All they had to do was make an Android phone and they would have been set.

    This ranks right up there with the other colossal commercial blunders (Netflix, GM/Chevy, Burger King's evil king, etc).

    1. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      They'd have been a latecomer to a saturated market. Windows may have been a risk, but at this stage, delaying entry into the android market for another year isn't going to be a huge cost.

    2. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 1

      It may well be a huge temporary cost if they will have to repay Microsoft for the billions they already received.

    3. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All they had to do was make an Android phone and they would have been set.

      No they would still be going out of business.

      http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/04/apple-samsung-99-percent-profits/

    4. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by segedunum · · Score: 1

      They'd have been a latecomer to a saturated market.

      No, they wouldn't. This is about saving what they have (or had) that Android has largely taken off them, plus they would have had a platform with a lot of applications. As it stands now they've just pissed that away.

      Windows may have been a risk, but at this stage, delaying entry into the android market for another year isn't going to be a huge cost.

      They'll be bust by then.

    5. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about Nokia, but about the MS vulture picking out the last useful bits from Nokias failing corpse. Eyes go first!

    6. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      They'd have been a latecomer to a saturated market.

      A market that people are actually interested in, and one where products actually sell.

    7. Re:Nokia always made the best hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Give me a break. Nokia hardware is lightyears ahead of that fragile Apple or craptastically engineered Korean shit.

  6. Competition is good? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With this kind of competition. We won't have no electronics manufacturers soon.

  7. Idea by arcite · · Score: 1

    Microsoft should do a 2 for 1 purchase of Nokia and Rim, then finally they'll be able to make a superior phone that is constructed tough as nails while also having a solid keyboard and touchscreen.

    1. Re:Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      3 for 1.
      Nokia
      Rim
      Free Vaccination

    2. Re:Idea by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Would not happen. Instead they would buy the companies fire all the workers and replace them with MS party line type folks. You would get a phone that RRoD would be a known issue for years, and would be worse than any the two previous companies made before. NIH is a huge issue for MS.

    3. Re:Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Microsoft doesn't have an employee plant/mole in the executive level at Rim, like they did with Nokia (Elop).

    4. Re:Idea by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      What's the point? The Lumia is a decent mid-range device, Nokia still has enough manufacturing capacity to make more of them - what they are lacking is customers.

      MS buying Nokia would be nice for Nokia shareholders, but given that the company is already making Windows phones, there would be no gain for MS.

    5. Re:Idea by firex726 · · Score: 1

      I can see it now...

      They would replace Mgmt with "Yes Men", and a year later release the ZunePhone, Poop Brown and Pea Green color scheme.

    6. Re:Idea by Nemyst · · Score: 1

      The sad part? Microsoft has a superb R&D branch that's constantly making new cool stuff, but the company is seemingly incapable of capitalizing on that. Just look at the Courier.

      MS doesn't even need to buy competitors to make a good product, it just needs to listen to (their own) competent developers, designers and engineers as opposed to marketing and management.

    7. Re:Idea by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Microsoft should do a 2 for 1 purchase of Nokia and Rim, then finally they'll be able to make a superior phone that is constructed tough as nails while also having a solid keyboard and touchscreen.

      And put Android on it. I like the way you think.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    8. Re:Idea by s73v3r · · Score: 1

      The Courier is a poor example of this because the Courier did not exist in reality. It was only a few mockups designed to try and make people forget about the iPad.

    9. Re:Idea by hendridm · · Score: 1

      I've known some Blackberry fanboys semi-recently, but when was the last time you've ever seen someone with a Nokia phone? I feel like it's been a decade since I have. Does anybody really want one?

      I dunno, maybe they're popular with the "free with new activation" crowd? Or maybe old people who only want to use it as a phone?

  8. An award to Stephen Elop.. by GhostIdentity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stephen Elop - The Trojan Horse of modern era.

    1. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by Kjella · · Score: 0

      I know it's very slashdotty to blame Microsoft for everything, but Nokia was in deep shit well before Elop. Moving to Microsoft Phone was a "If you're falling off a cliff, you might as well flap your arms and try to fly" move. He'll probably get the blame here as they hit rock bottom but Nokia threw themselves off the cliff.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know Microsoft has alot of apologists but this is amazing.

      Investors did not agree with the deal and the chickens are coming home to roost. EVERYONE knew the deal was bad.

      1. No Windows phone for ONE YEAR. No product in one year is a lifetime in the smartphone market. 2. Killed off Symbian. Their existing lines of phones were selling. Their customer base starting jumping ship since those phones were being killed off for Windows phones that were yet to be seen.

      Every analyst knew the timeline was extremely bad for Nokia. Nokia could have survived had they not made the deal and worked on their own products.

    3. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by gl4ss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      there's reports that the existing symbian lineup has sold better this spring than the wp line. they hid the information on their reports though, bundling them together.

      there's no excuse for elop announcing things too early and declaring a profitable business dead.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, but you don't know shit about mobile market. A year is very short time to bring out a phone -- 18 months is about minimal schedule from design to market-- and that's when you're using an OS you know...

    5. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > No Windows phone for ONE YEAR

      This is a bit optimistic... Nokia still has NO WINDOWS PHONE to compete with. The current models have an OS that Microsoft is publicly stating is not quite there yet, and current phones will NOT be upgradeable to the "good", new version that is coming real soon now. So if you buy a Nokia phone, you are getting something with no future in 6 months, or a year, or ???

    6. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by chrb · · Score: 1

      Nokia threw themselves off the cliff.

      Yes, Nokia was failing in the smart phone market as Symbian was dying, but the answer was clearly not to move to an unproven system platform that had low market share and wouldn't be ready for another year. They could've licensed Android and had some (>10%?) of the smart phone market by now, they could've chosen a dual-Android-Windows strategy as other mobile manufacturers have done; instead, Elop chose to move exclusively to Windows Phone, a completely unproven platform with single-digit market share. It was an incredibly risky move, one that would only pay off for Nokia if Microsoft managed to capture some significant percentage of the market - and even then, they would still be competing against other hardware manufacturers - just as they would've had to if they had chosen to support Android. I don't really see what Nokia gains for this partnership with Microsoft, it's like being stuck in a one-sided open relationship.

    7. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by DrJimbo · · Score: 1

      GP said:

      1. No Windows phone for ONE YEAR. No product in one year is a lifetime in the smartphone market. 2. Killed off Symbian

      AC parent replied:

      Sorry, but you don't know shit about mobile market. A year is very short time to bring out a phone ...

      Apple meet orange. It is true that it takes longer than a year to bring out a phone which is exactly why Elsop's policy was a disaster. Companies that actually want to stay in business keep pushing their old products while they develop new products. For example, it would be a disaster for AMD or Intel to have no new products for a year even though developing a new CPU line can (I imagine) take more than a year.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    8. Re:An award to Stephen Elop.. by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      It's called the Osborne effect. You would expect Elop to know about it.

  9. The IP Vultures are Circling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Meanwhile, Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, and Google IP lawyers are circling to fight over the carcass (Patent Portfolio) of Nokia.

    1. Re:The IP Vultures are Circling by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's only if Nokia files bankruptcy. They could in theory downsize to nothing but a legal firm that does nothing but license out the IP in attempt to collect reoccurring revenue. An IP patent portfolio as large as that one is cash cow worth keeping.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  10. So what is your utopian alternative? by arcite · · Score: 0

    Nokia makes crap phones that no one wants to buy. They also make incredibly popular low cost phones that sell millions in the developing world. Unfortunately, none of these operations are profitable.

    1. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by tiffany352 · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1fRu9YgfE Not my idea of a crap phone. Have you been living under a rock all this time ignoring the "I dropped my nokia phone on the sidewalk and it shattered. Sorry about your sidewalk." image macros spammed everywhere?

    2. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by Kjella · · Score: 1

      They also make incredibly popular low cost phones that sell millions in the developing world.

      Have sold. But the latest figures for 2011 is that there's now 6 billion cell phone subscribers, or 86.7% of the world's population, though some have more one subscription for home and one for work. That means there's not many more new people left to sell to, while in established markets people now buy smart phones and dump their dumb/feature phones for practically nothing. So that market is dying very shortly too.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They're also getting rid of those popular low cost phones that have been selling in Africa and India. Elop is killing all possible ways to save Nokia and is actively ruining the company. Other analysts don't see Nokia returning to profitability devices in the foreseeable future either this year or next. There's nothing left to save. The pre-Microsoft Nokia is already dead and gone. There's nothing to rejoice about, it's just a fact.

      --
      Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    4. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      Actually that's a smart move. Nokia's making very little on those tight margin devices. If Nokia wants to save money they'd stop trying to pursue those devices.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    5. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      6 billion cell phone subscriptions seems quite high. Citation needed on this one. Even if you count more than 1 per person. That number, wherever you got it from, must be skewed by people who got pay-as-you-go phones, and then trashed them with some remaining balance, or criminals who get burner phones and throw them out after a couple weeks. Once you discount children, elderly, and extremely impoverished people, I don't see how there could possibly be 6 billion active cell phone subscribers. I know plenty of people without cell phones right here in Canada, and an even larger number of people without smart phones. There's lots of room for the market to grow.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by oxdas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Money is money. If the phones are profitable, then continue to pursue them while you move in another direction. Consider Samsung, they are the smartphone leader right now, shipping 38 million smartphones last quarter (compared to Apple's 31 million). They also shipped 48 million dumb phones during the same period. I don't hear anything from them about dumping their dumb phone business. It goes to show that you can be both a smart and dumb phone company.

      This reminds me very much of the recent HP shortsightedness with their low margin computer business.

    7. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by Tough+Love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is now abundantly clear that Nokia needed to get on board with Android. Sure, they would likely end up with less than a majority share but their name recognition, distribution network, engineering and let's admit it, build quality, would ensure a solid, respectable share. Better than nothing, which is what they will have if they don't fire Elop.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    8. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Yup, somewhere at home I have a box of pencils and a box of toothpicks. Neither cost me much, and neither is what I'd call a growth market. And yet, I'm sure somebody is making good money selling each of them.

      If you need venture capital then these aren't products you should go after, but if you want to stay alive, there is no reason to give them up.

    9. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      lumia 900 is nice, but to recover nokia needs a string of ultra-high-end windows phones with features nobody else has (pureview, rich recording are the obvious candidates). unless this happens, why there's no reason buy a nokia if i can get a decent android at the same price.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    10. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by mirix · · Score: 2

      Canada only has ~70% market penetration, one of the lowest rates on earth, definitely low for a developed country.

      Most of western Europe is 125-150%, US, AUS are ~100%, Russia is 150%, middle east is similar. South America and Indonesia, Japan, are mostly ~100%.
      India and China are both at ~75%, which is a massive number on their own.

      The numbers are active subscriptions, so If you have a personal mobile and one from work, you're at 200% personally... which is how you get >100% penetration.

      --
      Sent from my PDP-11
    11. Re:So what is your utopian alternative? by gman99 · · Score: 1

      >>They're also getting rid of those popular low cost phones that have been selling in Africa and India
      No they aren't! It's all they have left and the plan is to stick with S40/NOS on the low end (with a Smarterphone UI) and WP7 on the high end
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/14/nokia_software_purge/

  11. If you cant adapt, you die by nurb432 · · Score: 2

    Pretty simple math. No matter how big you are, if you cant keep up with changing times, you go away.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:If you cant adapt, you die by DingerX · · Score: 1

      Ironically, this was the logic behind Elop's notorious Burning Platforms memo that justified junking Symbian, MeeGo, and any homegrown smartphone work (which as profitable) in favor of Windows Phone. "Adapt or Die" sounds good, but in this case it was used to adapt the bathwater for Microsoft's baby.

  12. A sad day... by christianT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's a shame to see Nokia falling apart. It was not long ago that they had the very promising n900. I was all ready to buy one of those until I found out that it wasn't available on my carrier of choice, and in fact the only carriers it was available on in my area were the ones with the poorest coverage.

    1. Re:A sad day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bought an N900 back when they came out. It seemed that with Qt and Maemo / MeeGo they might have had a great mobile application development platform, and I really liked the idea of running a raw linux OS on the phone.

      Nokia convinced me to buy into it. Maemo became MeeGo, then they canned it. I bought a phone and 6 months later the manufacturer washed its hands of the phone and handed me a giant fuck you.

      As an added bonus, the USB connector ended up detaching from the circuit board, so I could no longer charge the battery. I've never owned an electronic device of such poor workmanship. I wanted to tinker with the phone through the operating system, but I shouldn't have to break out a fucking soldering gun. By this point I couldn't be assed with it any more. I wrote it off as a tax loss and threw it in the bin.

      Nokia executives, you sold a Linux phone that could have been awesome, and you had me thinking you were leading the future. You made a believer out of me. Then you crushed my enthusiasm for the product with your blundering and your incompetence. You wasted my time and my money.

      I will never buy anything from you ever again.

      I do hope the best for the people you're tossing out on the street due to your shit planning, though.

  13. What a factory! by fortfive · · Score: 3, Funny

    a factory in Germany, Canada and Finland

    That's some factory--Nokia must have invented some kind of trans-dimensional technology. Surely that's worth a few bucks to someone?

    1. Re:What a factory! by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 1

      Too bad they can't sell it because of past contractual agreements. The portal making device doesn't run nor is run by WP7.

  14. The end of Meltemi, Qt without Nokia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Nokia was working on another Linux based operating system. This is now stopped.

    More insight into how the board of Nokia is being stacked with Microsoft cronies.

    1. Re:The end of Meltemi, Qt without Nokia by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 2

      I wonder if the endgame for Microsoft is to acquire rights to all the IP?

    2. Re:The end of Meltemi, Qt without Nokia by symbolset · · Score: 1

      I wonder if they don't already have that.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    3. Re:The end of Meltemi, Qt without Nokia by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      It would be very sad if Nokia ends up as nothing more than a patent troll.

    4. Re:The end of Meltemi, Qt without Nokia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MT was far bigger than Maemo. Nokia wanted to dominate the planet with cheap Linux phones, now that secret dream is dead and with it I would say Linux within Nokia. Meego was a disaster, mainly because Intel couldn't get their fkn act together. Maemo had issues. But the devs wished it could have been pursued. My N9 is absolutely beautiful, even better than my N900. BTW, most of the devs in Nokia are very anti-MS, or were. The Lumia is so good it has actually reduced the antagonism considerably. And Lumias are selling but from a low base. This article seems pretty much on the mark.

  15. 10,000 workers and 3 executives are going? by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Another round or two like this and the company will be all executives, no workers. That should help get them going in the right direction.

    1. Re:10,000 workers and 3 executives are going? by Megane · · Score: 1

      And just look how much money Microsoft has saved them... now they don't have to pay for those 10,000 workers!

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    2. Re:10,000 workers and 3 executives are going? by game+kid · · Score: 1

      Someday, when my soul and will are fully broken by the business world and I become an exec, I too shall use that "sharpen strategy" line from the press release...

      Me "Good news Jim-Bob, we're about to sharpen our strategy!" Jim-Bob "Yay! So, duhhhh, I'll be having a longer schedule in the project?" Me "No, Jim-Bob, you'll have no hours in the project. We'll just get some guys from China when we need help. Bwa hahaha hah!" *continues evil laugh for 4 minutes*
      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  16. Typical by JustAnotherIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CEO and board members make a bad decision, the workers at the bottom end up paying for it.
    Best of luck to those being let go.

    --
    What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
  17. heres another source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Here's another source, if you're hit by the NYT paywall, and the company's own positive spin.)

    what about slashdots spin effect?

  18. CFIT by bmo · · Score: 1

    This is what the aircraft safety people call "controlled flight into terrain" when one flies a plane into the ground.

    Elop is one hell of a pilot.

    --
    BMO

    1. Re:CFIT by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is what the aircraft safety people call "controlled flight into terrain" when one flies a plane into the ground.

      Is that what Nokia was flown into? I thought they were being flown into Microsoft's pocket.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. 3% of the smartphone market by tekrat · · Score: 1

    When Apple first announced the iPhone, Jobs said in an interview that he would be happy if the iPhone captured 3% of the global smartphone market. Mind you, at the time, the Blackberry and the Treo were pretty much the only smartphones that existed.

    Nokia was at the time, the biggest provider of any type phones and Apple believed that they had no chance to compete in that market, especially since Nokia was making phones that cost a mere $20 after being subsidized by the carrier.

    So, how did Apple, which started with a very meager outlook for sales, completely destroy not one, but at least two major cell-phone makers (RIM and Nokia)? Both of these companies are mere shells of what they once were, and Apple is stronger than ever.

    How is Apple one of the biggest companies on the planet, making what are essentially digital "toys"? Very few people actually *need* a smartphone, but apparently, and even Apple didn't forsee this, people *want* a single device that can really do it all.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:3% of the smartphone market by MachineShedFred · · Score: 2

      How? By doing what they've done for 30 years - making hardware and software actually work together without massive end-user hassle. They don't invent ground breaking technologies (for the most part, there have been a few exceptions), but they make available technologies actually useable.

      Turns out that there's a shedload of money in doing that.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    2. Re:3% of the smartphone market by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe it's because they built a phone for consumers rather than for carriers.

    3. Re:3% of the smartphone market by firex726 · · Score: 1

      Yea, Apple is great at integrating existing technology and marketing.

      Before them, no one really gave a shit about a phone's OS, it was clunky and unwieldy which was to be expected.

    4. Re:3% of the smartphone market by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Mind you, at the time, the Blackberry and the Treo were pretty much the only smartphones that existed.

      Trying to rewrite history? Back then Nokia made smartphones, HTC made smartphones (under various brands like XDA and Qtek), Samsung made some, Motorola, also smaller companies like E-Ten, Mio and Typhoon. There was a shitload of smartphones with and without touchscreens before iPhone and they were actually usable, with user-installable software (which iPhone was not able to do for quite a while).

      There were two basic differences to Apple products, though:
      1) They were more difficult to use. Apple interface is made so even an idiot can use it (and they often do).
      2) They weren't fashion accessories.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    5. Re:3% of the smartphone market by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      When Apple first announced the iPhone, Jobs said in an interview that he would be happy if the iPhone captured 3% of the global smartphone market. Mind you, at the time, the Blackberry and the Treo were pretty much the only smartphones that existed.

      Nokia was at the time, the biggest provider of any type phones and Apple believed that they had no chance to compete in that market, especially since Nokia was making phones that cost a mere $20 after being subsidized by the carrier.

      So, how did Apple, which started with a very meager outlook for sales, completely destroy not one, but at least two major cell-phone makers (RIM and Nokia)? Both of these companies are mere shells of what they once were, and Apple is stronger than ever.

      How is Apple one of the biggest companies on the planet, making what are essentially digital "toys"? Very few people actually *need* a smartphone, but apparently, and even Apple didn't forsee this, people *want* a single device that can really do it all.

      its this sort of stupid ignorance that helps apple sell its overhyped products and drives true innovators into the ground. nokia had been making perfectly capable smatphones since forever when the 1st iphone was launched.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    6. Re:3% of the smartphone market by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      lol! and you still can't share a song/photo/video through the bluetooth on the latest iphone. yeah! they built it for the consumers. facetime works only with wifi, but they did it for the users! otoh, i've been video calling/skyping over 3.5g on 7yr old nokias, sending and receiving photos/music without any cell network usage. but you believe that apple " built a phone for consumers rather than for carriers".
      the ignorance, its unbelievable.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    7. Re:3% of the smartphone market by vakuona · · Score: 1

      And yet they sell 30m iPhones every quarter. To actual customers! They obviously know something you don't.

    8. Re:3% of the smartphone market by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      i bet stupid iSheep will buy a stone stamped with the apple logo, as long as it's overpriced!

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
  20. Nokia's death spiral continues by tuffy · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I've found Tomi's ongoing saga of Nokia's downfall to be quite interesting. A choice quote about today's news:

    The worse news is the guidance about Q2 profit warning and Q3 smartphone sales problems, that was hidden in the story about layoffs. So before, in Nokia's profit warning, Nokia said it will have problems with the handset unit profitability (producing a loss) in both Q1 and Q2. The losses for handsets in Q2 were supposed to be similar to Q1 ie -3%. Now we hear that Q2 losses will be bigger than 3%. This is VERY BAD NEWS. It really means that Nokia is falling into the hole and the rate of the fall is only increasing.

    The gist of it being that Windows isn't working, and Elop is killing any possible "plan B" for the company.

    --

    Ita erat quando hic adveni.

    1. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by tpheiska · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mod parent up. The blog in question is awesome. For example this:
        "Before the Burning Platforms memo, in 2010 Nokia towered over its rivals like very few companies have ever managed in a Fortune 500 size scale. Nokia's smartphones sold more than 2x those of the iPhone and more than 3x as many as Samsung. Today only 18 months later, Nokia is a third the size of the iPhone and one quarter the size of Samsung's smartphones. Never, ever, in any industry, has a global market leader collapsed this comprehensively. This is a world record in destruction of a market leader. Understand what that means. Elop has set a world record in management failure. He is a world record holder in the most incompetent CEO that has ever been. Not just the worst CEO now, but of all time - that is what 'world record' means - and this collapse of Nokia is BY A WIDE MARGIN the biggest collapse of a global Fortune 500 sized company, who was the market leader in its own industry. I have been asking my readers to come up with any example of such total collapse in 12 months in economic history - never been done. Never. This is the worst management failure of all time! And it was not caused by a tsunami or earthquake or national revolution or exploding factory. It was caused by Stephen Elop. He started the destruction on a February day in Espoo when he released his Burning Platforms memo. "

      --
      "wahts woring iwth my tyoping?"
    2. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that it's very bad news that Q2 isn't looking better, but isn't what Elop is doing exactly what he should do now? He's laying off people to bring the costs down, so that the chosen strategy can be implemented. The Windows move hasn't brought them to profitability yet, but it's way too early to say it won't work: the phones are just fine, Windows 8 is just around the corner. Any plan B would be much less likely to work at all and would also have a lesser best possible outcome.

    3. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Hatta · · Score: 2

      This is a world record in destruction of a market leader. Understand what that means. Elop has set a world record in management failure.

      This assumes that destruction of Nokia wasn't Elop's goal to begin with. It's hard to look at the facts and come away with that impression.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "This is the worst management failure of all time!"
      Agreed, but Windows 8/Metro will beat that!

    5. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      Exaggerate much? It took me all of 5 minutes for Enron to pop into mind.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron

      Enron was named "America's Most Innovative Company" by Fortune for six consecutive years, from 1996 to 2001. It was on the Fortune's "100 Best Companies to Work for in America" list in 2000, and had offices that were stunning in their opulence. Enron was hailed by many, including labor and the workforce, as an overall great company, praised for its large long-term pensions, benefits for its workers and extremely effective management until its exposure in corporate fraud.

      In early 2001 they were "America's Most Innovative Company" with over $100 billion in revenue. By Dec 2nd 2001, they were completely gone (not just in bankruptcy).

    6. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      Not just Enron.. another 5 minutes, remembered several more examples:

      WorldCom (largest bankruptcy in american history at the time),
      Lehman Brothers (4th largest investment company),
      Washington Mutual (large savings and loan association)

      If you can't think of bigger failures than Nokia, then you either have a terrible memory, or you're just not trying.

    7. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Tough+Love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Elop has set a world record in management failure.

      Management failure? How about criminal malfeasance.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    8. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sad fact is, most CEOs are fairly protected from their own incompetence by market pressures and the time its takes for competition to react to massive blunders. In this case, Elop picked a known path of destruction and the market was ready for his stupidity and wasted no time in taking advantage.

      The real story isn't that Elop is a wordly bad CEO, its that this is business as usual and the competition was ready.

      Seriously, how many of you have had the chance to talk with CEOs. I have on many occations. Almost all I've met are there because of back door politics inspite of their obvious incompetence. One thing over the years which I haven't been able to let go, most CEOs who make massive salaries are not competent to justify even 1/10th of their income.

      And this is ultimately why the lack of economic upward mobility in the Western world is destroying the economy. One of the big problems is that we hire idiots to do these jobs and more idiots below are in awe of their idiocy. Simply put, most CEOs are extremely unqualified to hold their position. If you bother to look at their track record, most have a trainwreck behind them, one place after another. And yet, we're all told that destroying companies makes them most qualified to lead them. The sad fact is, most people willingly buy into this bullshit.

    9. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by TemporalBeing · · Score: 2

      I agree that it's very bad news that Q2 isn't looking better, but isn't what Elop is doing exactly what he should do now? He's laying off people to bring the costs down, so that the chosen strategy can be implemented. The Windows move hasn't brought them to profitability yet, but it's way too early to say it won't work: the phones are just fine, Windows 8 is just around the corner. Any plan B would be much less likely to work at all and would also have a lesser best possible outcome.

      Not quite. They're having a big problem selling phones. Their Symbian phones are selling quite well, but they're trying to move away from Symbian. They had another viable platform (Maemo/MeeGo), but ditch'd that to use Windows - a platform that was quite well behind where they were with the Maemo/MeeGo effort, and they are having a very hard time selling phones with Windows on them.

      If they Board of Directors was smart, they'd can Elop, and either resurrect Maemo/MeeGo, or pull in Android. They'd have to can Elop to do so as he has a bigger interest in seeing Microsoft succeed than Nokia succeed (he's got far more invested in Microsoft than he ever will with Nokia).

      Regardless they need to get their phone sales up, or get out of the business. But Windows is not helping them sell phones. So they need to look at other platforms.

      The irony, of course, is that Windows is turning out to be the "burning platform" that Elop called Symbian when he first made the announcement - and the piers around it are quickly falling apart.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    10. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Wasn't the point of those cases that the money they pretended to have was not the same as the amount they really had?
      With Nokia it's easier to measure in real income without trying to work out which assets are real or imaginary.

    11. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      sort of, yes.. but the amounts they pretended to have were a small portion of the total. worldcom for example inflated its assets by 11 billion. A lot.. but a small part of their total assets.

    12. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      Enron, for all their opulence or "most innovative" awards, was not the largest energy company in the country at the time of their collapse. Nokia on the other hand had #1 smartphone market share in 2010 and lost 75% of it in a year. The blog article (if you read it in full) claims that this is the largest one-year collapse by a Fortune 500 market leader in history. Enron does not contradict this claim.

    13. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by David+Jao · · Score: 2

      Of the three companies that you listed, none of them ever at any point ranked #1 in market share in their sector. Lehman was as you said the 4th largest investment bank (Goldman has been #1 for at least several decades), WorldCom was never at any point the largest telecom (AT&T was), and WaMu was never the largest bank. Nokia on the other hand had the largest market share in both the smartphone and dumbphone markets in 2010 and plummeted to the #4 rank in a single year. The claim in the article states that this is the largest market share collapse in history by a Fortune 500 company having #1 market share. His claim is very clearly restricted in scope to market leading companies. I think you're misinterpreting the blog article and thinking that it claims more than what it actually says. Your examples do not involve market-leading companies (those having #1 rank in market share) and therefore cannot invalidate the author's claim. I think it's quite remarkable that no market-leading company in history has ever fallen so far, so fast as Nokia.

    14. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      Washington Mutual was the largest savings and loan association until 2008. S&L is a market. You cannot redefine their market to make it more general just to fit a point you're trying to make. You would not put Nokia, Microsoft, IBM, and a thousand others into a sector called "computing", yet that's what you're trying to do with banking.

    15. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      nokia only pulled in about 30 billion in revenue in 2010. Are you really going to say to me that Nokia's failure is massive, yet Enron's (with 100 billion in revenue) was not? Don't be stupid. Enron was larger than Nokia, even at it's high point.

    16. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by rgbrenner · · Score: 1

      not 30 billion... actually 42 billion.. but point still stands.

    17. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      The article never said Nokia's failure is the most massive failure ever. It said Nokia represents the most massive corporate failure in history from a position of global market dominance. Enron never came close to dominating world energy markets, or even world electricity markets (several state-run electric utilities, for example China's, are bigger than Enron ever was). I agree Enron was a massive failure but this simply has no bearing on the article's accuracy since the article never made any claims otherwise.

    18. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by David+Jao · · Score: 1

      As Wikipedia makes clear, the difference between a savings and loan assocation and a bank is far less than the difference between a smartphone and a PC. Even if we count WaMu, it's not much of an exaggeration to say that Nokia is the biggest one-and-done failure ever if there is only one larger such failure in history.

    19. Re:Nokia's death spiral continues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elop wins either way.

      When? Microsoft buys out Nokia, or their patents, who would 'run' their mobile division with a nice bonus...

      While 30,000 Nokia employees are laid off and the crown jewel of Finland disappears

  21. Re:No good news in that - sounds familiar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The fall of giants is tough. Nokias fall sounds like SGIs fall where project Fahrenheit sucked the last remaining useful IP out of the company before SGI went Jurrasic Park. Losing the R&D labs will mean that the next generation of phone-developers will not speak Finnish. Hey.. its that path they chose. What goes around comes around.

  22. China is the culprit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When Nokia made a deal with Microsoft, I didn't see any sense, except that:

    1) Microsoft is well perceived in China,
    2) Nokia is well perceived in China,

    Nokia thought they would look good in the emerging market. However, they forgot that China makes only 1.3 billion people. Maybe they will win market in China, but they will lose market in the world. What is more 1.3 billion or 5.7 billion? Wrong decision.

    1. Re:China is the culprit. by Inyu · · Score: 1

      That's what happens when a company sells its soul for buck. Google didn't. As I see, there are 2 evils, which companies tend to sell their souls just to be there: Facebook and China.

  23. A brilliant mix of capitalism and socialism,... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In our quest for purity, we are asked to don a red or a blue cap which is supposed to align to socialist-leaning (blue) against capitalist-leaning (red) doctrines, but of late, not combine the two. Its time to realize that any successful society will need to embrace elements of both socialism and capitalism to be remain sovereign. Get that Mitt? Get that Barack?

    1. Re:A brilliant mix of capitalism and socialism,... by localman57 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find the subtlety of your argument confusing and upsetting. COMMUNIST!

    2. Re:A brilliant mix of capitalism and socialism,... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure Obama is already aware of this. The false dichotomy of a Socialist / Capitalist society only exists for ignorant Republicans, and the far-left, which has no power at all in the U.S.. We need to not shy away from the fact that the Republican party is now completely made up of liars, lunatics, and morons, or we'll never fix the real problem.

    3. Re:A brilliant mix of capitalism and socialism,... by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      This is called false duality, false dichotomy, or false choice, and it's the fallacy that RULES our political landscape right now. It was also McCarthy's favorite fantasy.

    4. Re:A brilliant mix of capitalism and socialism,... by localman57 · · Score: 1
      OH! It all makes sense now. I never understood that song.

      I don't know why you say "Goodbye", I say "Hello, hello, hello".
      I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello.
      I say "High", you say "Low".
      You say "Why?" And I say "I don't know".

      It's because he was into Dichotomy.

  24. Re:"negative effects of its transition to a Window by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    No that was the assessment of Wall Street Investors after the announcement of Nokia's deal with Microsoft. Their assessment was correct. You're just an ass.

  25. Ballmer should buy them out by gelfling · · Score: 1

    And then screw it up unto death, like everything else.

  26. I can't have any sympathy for Nokia by paladinsama · · Score: 1

    Everybody here is always talking about the Microsoft deal or how good was the hardware Nokia made.
    But something that is never mentioned is how Nokia closed a digital store that because of their DRM implementation, denied customers of their legitimate purchases.
    These are the kind of things that usually causes boycotts, for example a few guys get the message that Rock Band will stop working on the iPhone, and everybody in the world is talking about it. Nokia cut access to 52 games, and nobody cared. Well, I lost 21 purchases that day so I care.
    Obviously if nobody cared for what Nokia did, that only could mean that they didn't had a big following. I was a Nokia fan, but now I won't give them a cent.
    For me Nokia didn't had a future no matter what choice of operating system they took.

  27. I tend to disagree here.. by GhostIdentity · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You may be right, but Nokia still had a fat chance of comeback with MeeGo, as already proved by Nokia N9 (I own one, and I easily claim it to be better than most, if not all, of the current smartphones due to its intuitive Swipe UI). Who was saying no to building Windows smartphones? But Elop apparently wasn't satisfied with only that. He had to kill the burning platform (Symbian) as well as the blooming platform (MeeGo). That is what has pushed Nokia off the cliff, IMO. I may seem to blame Microsoft (I actually do it inside my mind, though, having been a genuine Nokia fan since I became aware of phones), but the fact still stands that Elop cruelly slaughtered any remaining chances that Nokia had, with or without Microsoft behind him.

    1. Re:I tend to disagree here.. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Who was saying no to building Windows smartphones? But Elop apparently wasn't satisfied with only that. He had to kill the burning platform (Symbian) as well as the blooming platform (MeeGo).

      How many horses do you want to ride at once? Many of the problems Nokia had was over the internal divide between Symbian and MeeGo, now you'd make it a three way race instead of a two way race. Apple picked a horse called iOS and rode that. Samsung and a few other picked one called Android and rode that. Nokia tried for a split with one foot on Symbian, one on MeeGo and the result was disaster. Yes, Nokia was in huge trouble already when Elop took over. Adding another platform would just make everything worse. Okay maybe he picked the wrong horse, but at least he picked one.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:I tend to disagree here.. by k(wi)r(kipedia) · · Score: 1

      I agree with your horse analogy. But I don't see how Nokia can succeed with winPhone. In order for Microsoft to gain traction against Android and iOS, it has to sell WinPhone to other manufacturers. These manufacturers will only agree to a Microsoft deal that doesn't make them second-class citizens to Nokia. Notice how Google was careful not to overly favor one particular manufacturer (Samsung, HTC) when it was making its G-branded phones? Microsoft also has to play this game. WinPhone might yet succeed. Sadly, unless it manages to develop its own identity, Nokia is going down.

      Either Android OR a beefed-up MeeGo would have been a better choice as a Nokia smartphone OS. Android because it already had some market traction. MeeGo because it had the potential to be different.

    3. Re:I tend to disagree here.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samsung picked Android and Bada and Windows Phone. They are now backing the winners (Bada's doing OK as well as Android, apparently). Nokia's problem wasn't that it had too many horses, it was they had far too many jockeys, all fighting at the starting gate to get a ride. Unfortunately they didn't notice that the race had started, and they were left at the post.

    4. Re:I tend to disagree here.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Splitting their efforts is costly, but Symbian can run on very low-powered hardware compared to the requirements for iOS, Android, Meego, and Windows Phone. Symbian on low-end and Meego on high-end was a sensible strategy, especially as time went on "low-end" would become powerful enough to run their high-end OS. Also, Nokia was working on Qt so both Symbian and Meego could run Qt apps, so their line-up would not be as fragmented as having two OSes would seem... but Windows Phone can't run Qt apps, which is the real reason why it was a bad idea for Nokia.

    5. Re:I tend to disagree here.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's strange with the N9, i also have one and would argue that it's the best smartphone on the planet, or in the words of one online commentator: "if the iPhone is the Jesus phone, then the N9 is the God phone". Unfortunately the day i first used it was the day i totally lost all faith in Nokia :/, any top management team dim and out-of-touch enough to shut something like that down is incompetent and can't be trusted.

  28. Re:"negative effects of its transition to a Window by Asic+Eng · · Score: 2

    No it's not editorial spin. The NY Times appears to quote Nokia: "The company also warned investors that its loss was likely to be greater in the second quarter, which ends June 30, than it was in the first, and that the negative effects of its transition to a Windows-based smartphone business would continue into the third quarter."

  29. Paging Mr. Belluzzo... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Paging Mr. Rick Belluzzo...Mr. Elop on line one...

  30. Ticker Guy KNOWS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=207293

  31. Shareholders should sue Elop by JDG1980 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Stephen Elop's decisions as Nokia CEO indicate that he is placing the well-being of another company (Microsoft) over the well-being of the company he's supposed to represent. The result is the $1.2 billion quarterly loss mentioned in the original post. This loss is, in large part, a result of Elop's breach of his fiduciary duty to Nokia. Why haven't the shareholders sued him?

    1. Re:Shareholders should sue Elop by Wonda · · Score: 1

      They really should, this is a massive destruction of their money

  32. Nokia vs RIM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who can die first?

  33. Android by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cheap phone - MS + Android = Win.
    Only MS probably has some sort of no-Android clause attached to their money.

  34. OK Here's The Song Sheet For Today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is a tough slog today, but just keep repeating these bullet points:
    * Elop has done nothing wrong
    * Nokia was already heading for a train wreck before MSFT ever got involved with them so it is not Microsoft's fault at all, in any way, shape, or form.
    * Windows Phone will be a success because IDC says so
    * There is a strong rumour that there will be a government bailout in Finland but we can't say from whom or give any facts to substantiate that
    * Elop has done nothing wrong
    * It is all Nokia's fault
    * Losing a few thousand Finn, Canadian, and German mobile phone R&D folks will improve our R&D efforts worldwide
    * Partnering with Microsoft is a tremendous opportunity if only the other companies would meet the same standard of excellence and do their part.
    * Elop has done nothing wrong

  35. Carriers buy phones, not people by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1

    In the biggest smart phone markets, except for a few strange people like us, it is carriers not end users that buy phones. They want to offer contracts with the best buzzword compliance at the lowest cost and the biggest opportunity to restrict users so they won't use up all their bandwidth allowances. "OS-agnostic" isn't going to appear on a carrier site near you, whereas "Built-in Facebook" and "12MP camera" will.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Carriers buy phones, not people by TheSunborn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the USA that is true, but Nokia sells most of it phones outside of USA where consumers pick the phones.

    2. Re:Carriers buy phones, not people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the biggest smart phone markets, except for a few strange people like us, it is carriers not end users that buy phones.

      it's only in the US where the cartel of carriers has tyrannical powers. Almost everywhere else the situation is different: they have a weird concept called competition.

  36. Colour inversion by Kupfernigk · · Score: 1
    The Democrats and Republicans are not really socialist or capitalist parties per se. Everywhere else in the world, red is the colour of Socialism. Hence the song:

    The People's flag is deepest red
    It shrouded oft our martyred dead
    Though cowards scoff and traitors sneer
    We'll keep the red flag flying here.

    For a capitalist piss-take to the same tune (Tannenbaum)

    The working class can kiss my ass
    I've got the foreman's job at last....

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
    1. Re:Colour inversion by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      It used to be that the red color meant the incumbent and the blue color the other party. Eventually it stuck into the current color scheme.

  37. Presumably it is in his contract by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2

    You don't know what his contract says. If it says in the small print "Get Microsoft to buy all our shares" and the idiots didn't think of the best way to do that (make them worthless) then they have nothing to sue about. A lot of bonkers management decisions make perfect sense - if you know what they were contracted to do.

    --
    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  38. competition? by kirkb · · Score: 1

    Nokia lowered their forecast due to "increased competition". Isn't that just a backwards way of saying "our inability to compete"? Other companies are thriving (or at least surviving) despite all this competition.

    --
    Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
  39. definitely has this in his logic flowchart by SethJohnson · · Score: 1

    The gist of it being that Windows isn't working, and Elop is killing any possible "plan B" for the company.

    I wouldn't exactly call "selling off the patent portfolio to Google" no possible "plan B." That route is only profitable if the proceeds of the sale don't have to be spent on workers' salaries. The layoffs are required so the spoils are entirely given to the investors.

    Seth

  40. Prepping to be bought by papasui · · Score: 2

    I have been thinking this entire thing smells like Elops entire goal was to drive stock so low that Microsoft can buyout Nokia on the cheap and have their own cell phone manufacturing division, ala Apple and now Google.

  41. We all have a purpose by symbolset · · Score: 1

    Nokia's seems to be to serve as a warning to others.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:We all have a purpose by vivek7006 · · Score: 1

      Nokia's seems to be to serve as a warning to others.

      Welcome back the great Morpheus! I missed you especially after they sidelined you in Matrix Revolutions....

    2. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 1

      What warning would that be? Don't get driven out by Apple and Google+"everybody else"? I don't think Nokia failed for lack of trying (like, for example, the N800).

    3. Re:We all have a purpose by symbolset · · Score: 1

      When the lesson confounds, introspection instructs. The reason others see things you do not is not that they are blind.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    4. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Good job coming off like a condescending know-it-all with no ability to argue his side. It's easy to throw stones, but not as easy to be constructive.

    5. Re:We all have a purpose by symbolset · · Score: 1

      There is no need to argue. The answer is right there in plain sight. To tediously elaborate the obvious would only give an opportunity to argue, to no purpose. I'll say it again, in case you've lost the thread: "Nokia's purpose seems to be to serve as a warning to others."

      Did that help?

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    6. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 0

      When somebody asks you for clarification, it's poor form to repeat what you said, unless your purpose is to hide a shallow, ignorant comment behind Zen-like, pseudo-intelligence.

    7. Re:We all have a purpose by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then. I guess we're done here.

    8. Re:We all have a purpose by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 1

      Nokia did the exact same thing that RIM did: Nothing. Apple showed up with IOS and Google showed up with Android, and Nokia told everyone how great Symbian still is. The good thing is that Nokia was able to make the leap to Windows Phone 7. RIM still hasn't figured out that no one's interested in Blackberry any more.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
    9. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Nokia did the exact same thing that RIM did: Nothing. Apple showed up with IOS and Google showed up with Android, and Nokia told everyone how great Symbian still is.

      Which ignores what I said in my post: "I don't think Nokia failed for lack of trying (like, for example, the N800)."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800

      That was in 2007, the same time as when the iPhone came out. While not a smart phone, it had Bluetooth to connect to a mobile phone and offered similar capabilities as the iPhone. That led to the N900 in 2009 which was a smartphone. They tried to advance with Maemo. It didn't catch on.

    10. Re:We all have a purpose by Junta · · Score: 1

      I think the lesson would be that in jumping platforms, they elected to have Google as a competitor rather than a partner. They bet on MS hard, despite the market reality demonstrating a pretty bleak scenario for Windows Phone. So *if* you are going to finally jump platforms, don't jump to the last-place player.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    11. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with their decision, but it was one of those high-risk, high-reward ones. Rather than being a late, "me-too" player in the highly competitive Android market, they had a chance to be the champion of a resurgent Windows Phone. It's not inconceivable they could have succeeded. Then again, if they had jumped in with Android and fell flat, they'd be getting smashed by the pundits for not innovating or differentiating themselves.

    12. Re:We all have a purpose by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 1

      The N800 isn't a phone. Trust me, I have two of them. And even if it were, it's no where near the polished functionality of iPhone or even Android. Maemo was hardly a try. They stuck a new window manager on Linux and tried to call it a mobile OS.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
    13. Re:We all have a purpose by Civaus · · Score: 1

      I think the lesson would be that in jumping platforms, they elected to have Google as a competitor rather than a partner. They bet on MS hard, despite the market reality demonstrating a pretty bleak scenario for Windows Phone. So *if* you are going to finally jump platforms, don't jump to the last-place player.

      The lesson in one word is: Innovation. If you are in an "active technology" based industry there can be no pause in your leadership of new and/or breaking technologies to maximize profits or focus elsewhere. By the time you recognize that things are starting to change it is too late to recover.

    14. Re:We all have a purpose by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The N800 isn't a phone.

      I said as much, but it was a touch mobile device that you could connect to your mobile phone, and it served as the basis for their later models that were phones.

      They stuck a new window manager on Linux and tried to call it a mobile OS.

      Which is pretty much what Apple did with BSD and OS X. Nokia tried. They failed. To say they "did nothing" is just bullshit. Microsoft "did nothing" back when they sat on IE 6 for a long time and let Firefox gain traction. That wasn't the case here.

    15. Re:We all have a purpose by Mike+Buddha · · Score: 1

      Ok, I stand corrected. They did very very little. Their answer to iPhone was the next generation PalmPilot, only less user friendly and more buggy. They'd have been better off if they did nothing.

      --
      by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
  42. This is what they planned all along by Metriheikki · · Score: 1

    The people at Redmond had this planned from the beginning and the greedy selfish board of Nokia didn't see this coming. Elop's job was to renovate Nokia to a shadow of its former glory, to lower its market value enough for Microsoft to just grab and eat it like a little part of breakfast. There will be no more manufacturing jobs in "expensive" Finland, just what the greedy people in Redmond do not want. Maximize profits. What I would like to see here is something that the people at Microsoft would not expect.. ..if one of the others, the Big Ones, that still perhaps conduct "ethically", would go ahead and purchase Nokia in front of Microsoft..

  43. Re:"negative effects of its transition to a Window by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no such statement in the nokia press release.

  44. Nokia is the Zune of phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft's business is selling mediocrity using an unfair virtual monopoly, in my opinion. Nokia management must have little ability if they didn't know that.

  45. Embrace, extend and extinguish by Aggrajag · · Score: 1

    This looks like the start of the extinguish phase of Microsoft's plan.

    As a Finn I am really fucking pissed off at Elop and the Nokia board who let this happen.

    1. Re:Embrace, extend and extinguish by zixxt · · Score: 1

      This looks like the start of the extinguish phase of Microsoft's plan.

      As a Finn I am really fucking pissed off at Elop and the Nokia board who let this happen.

      As a half Finn I concur, Nokia should of not made a deal with the devil, now its time to reap the rewards of being blind and/or stupid.

      --
      ---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  46. Qt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ever since they bought Trolltech, anything that doesn't envolve "build all software around Qt" doesn't make sense to me, from a managerial perspective.

    Maintaining some or one previous platform for phones makes sense, but anything going forward that doesn't envolve Qt implies duplication of resources and waste.
    Naturally, embracing Linux in full and KDE is, imo, obvious.

    1. Re:Qt by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Qt was bought during the term of the previous CEO, so modern management training tells the new CEO that he has to assert his dominance by pissing all over it.
      We still have barbarians even if they are physically wimps with a barbarian mentality.

  47. like rain on your wedding day by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    >

    No Windows phone for ONE YEAR

    This is a bit optimistic... Nokia still has NO WINDOWS PHONE to compete with. The current models have an OS that Microsoft is publicly stating is not quite there yet, and current phones will NOT be upgradeable to the "good", new version that is coming real soon now. So if you buy a Nokia phone, you are getting something with no future in 6 months, or a year, or ???

    Wait, this is the company running ads claiming all smartphones up to this point have been beta tests?
    oh wow.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  48. Microsoft is happy about this. by zixxt · · Score: 1

    Just another step in the plan to screw Nokia the same way they did Sendo. Nokia is so fucking stupid for trusting Microsoft, after all history repeats its self.

    --
    ---- GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
  49. Samsung and HTC make Windows phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Nokia strategy of we're competing against Apple/Google makes no sense. They aren't. They are competing against Samsung and HTC... So even if the windows phone took off. Samsung and HTC would still be there.

    It's pretty clear that the strategy isn't a Nokia strategy, it's a Microsoft strategy. Microsoft know that the desktop is dead and they know that they have to get into the mobile space or they will be dead too.

    It's just a shame the Nokia board were such suckers. I can't help notice that the Nokia shareholders are not as impressed by the Elop effect as Balmer might be.

  50. One thing I'll never get by Flipao · · Score: 1

    Nokia passed at the chance to use Android because they didn't want to be "just another Android maker", and instead basically became "just another WP7 maker", I mean, you can say whatever you want about the Nokia MS deal but at the end of the day MS will discard the Nokia carcass once they're done sucking whatever's left out of it.

    Nokia had nothing to lose by betting on both platforms.

  51. This is fraud. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If Microsoft buy Nokia, the shareholders will have been defrauded of their investments by the CEO of the company.

    This should mean prison time.

  52. Stephen Elop && arrak.fi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using http://www.arrak.fi/en/ag with "Stephen Elop",
    we finally find the Deep Finnish Truth:

    phenol steep topple sheen openest help
    phenol peste peoples then poteen helps
    shelton peep peoples hent
    ethnol peeps peoples then
    penelopes th peoples hent
    hopples teen pole stephen
    hopples ente opel stephen
    hopple tense lope stephen
    hopple teens Phone Pestle
    hopple steen phon steeple

  53. The probably don't need to buy it by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Whatever is worth something can be trickled out to Microsoft while Nokia is still standing. Someone presenting a defence could say there's nothing illegal with Elop reluctantly laying people off and kind heartedly recommending the best of them to his former colleages at Microsoft.
    Anyway, who does the time? The board that brought him in are complicit in the deliberate destruction of the company.