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Online Activities To Be Recorded By UK ISPs

SmartAboutThings writes "The United Kingdom online monitoring law just got published, showcasing some disturbing facts. The paper is 123 pages long and is actually a draft of the Communications Data Bill. You might not be so happy to find out that from now, every single thing you do online will be recorded and stored by the good old Internet Service providers (ISP). What do we mean by online activity? Well, everything."

312 comments

  1. Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Nothing to hide, nothing to fear.

    1. Re:Be good. by sobachatina · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hate it when people say this. At the risk of feeding a troll...

      You might be doing nothing wrong and still have plenty to hide from some people. I don't consider going on vacation wrong but I don't broadcast to the internet that my house will be vacant.

      What if you don't support the controlling political party? You might value some anonymity.

      Sure if the government, and all the individuals within it that have access to that data, are always perfectly honorable you might never have a problem. Does this seem like a likely situation for you to stake your life or wellbeing on?

      Giving that much power to the government is just begging one power hungry corrupt individual to abuse it to gain more power.

    2. Re:Be good. by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are you by chance insinuating that the government isn't made up of perfect beings? That's preposterous! No government in history has ever done anything that could be deemed as wrong by anyone!

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    3. Re:Be good. by TheGinger · · Score: 1

      Nothing to hide, nothing to fear.

      Nothing to hide, nothing to show

    4. Re:Be good. by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ... and if a person did have something they wanted to not make public, or "hide" as you put it, what fucking business is it of yours, or more specifically, the governments?

      Every hear of a guy named Matthew Shepard? He didn't hide the fact he was homosexual, and was kidnapped, robbed, chained to a fence, and brutally beaten to death for it.

      "Something to hide" != something illegal or wrong, jackass.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    5. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I would have no problem reporting a corrupt cop to the police without anonymity. Nothing to fear there.

    6. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing to hide, no reason to look

    7. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For someone to post this on /., it's probably a troll. Never the less...

      Everyone has everything to hide. History offers many examples of the alternative.

    8. Re:Be good. by dissy · · Score: 1

      Nothing to hide, nothing to fear.

      Then why haven't you turned yourself in?
      You've broken hundreds of laws today alone, and if you count all the countries of the world, you have broken thousands of laws today alone.

      I don't see you making an example of what you preach...

    9. Re:Be good. by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you by chance insinuating that the government isn't made up of perfect beings? That's preposterous! No government in history has ever done anything that could be deemed as wrong by anyone!

      More than preposterous, it's treasonous. And the archives show he once visited a site often frequented by subversives. I think we have a terrorist sleeper agent on our hands.

    10. Re:Be good. by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know, vote the wrong party in and homosexuality might be illegal again. And then the logs of anyone who visited certain websites in the past 5 years will become very useful....

    11. Re:Be good. by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All criminals wear clothing. Clothes can be used to hide weapons or drugs, mask your identity, and blend into crowds.

      Therefore, we should make it unlawful to wear clothing. It will make it easier for the police to do their jobs. After all, if you've done nothing wrong -- and you've been to the gym and haven't been at the crisps again -- you've got nothing to hide, do you?

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    12. Re:Be good. by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 2

      Also, I've posted in this thread so you're all on the watch list.

      Remember, the plan is to blow up the Olympics and behead the Queen during the opening ceremonies

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    13. Re:Be good. by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Wouldn't it be a shame if the browsing histories of all of the current MPs happened to be leaked somewhere...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    14. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      So... another example of something perfectly legal privacy:
      Did you know that youtube will make suggestions for you based off your viewing habits? Say, if you've just watched all of season 2 of my little pony.
      And all those suggested videos are RIGHT THERE on the side when you pull up youtube in front of all your friends and/or significant other.

      yeah...

    15. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I've posted in this thread so you're all on the watch list.

      Remember, the plan is to blow up the Olympics and behead the Queen during the opening ceremonies

      You mean to say someone wants to take away Queen Elizabeth II's throne? Treachery on such a scale can only be stopped by monitoring all your web browsing activities on every device.

    16. Re:Be good. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I don't see their high school prom photo.....

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    17. Re:Be good. by EdIII · · Score: 4, Funny

      Remember, the plan is to blow up the Olympics and behead the Queen during the opening ceremonies

      Not as long as I have something to say about it

      -- Frank Drebin, Police Squad

    18. Re:Be good. by EdIII · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wouldn't be a shame if some browsing histories were faked for all of the current MPs and leaked, and nobody could tell the difference?

    19. Re:Be good. by EdIII · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's quite brilliant actually. Loin clothes for the men and dental floss thongs for the ladies.

      Of course, that means I could blend into a crowd like a Ninja since everyone would be concentrating on the thongs.

      Contrary to popular belief, boobies never get old.

    20. Re:Be good. by newcastlejon · · Score: 2

      You've got a lot of work ahead of you, Sergeant; there are quite a few butlers in Her Majesty's service.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    21. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contrary to popular belief, boobies never get old.

      You might want to rethink that statement.

    22. Re:Be good. by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Nothing to hide, no reason to look.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    23. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of people look much better with clothes on.

    24. Re:Be good. by frostilicus2 · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    25. Re:Be good. by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      France beat you to it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10129324

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    26. Re:Be good. by EdIII · · Score: 2

      Contrary to popular belief, seeing boobies, aged between 18 and 30 (don't hate ladies), never gets old .

      Ex., Madonna's nipple slips out at 18 - Good times. Madonna's nipple slips out at 35 - Kind of cool. Madonna's nipple slips out at 50 - I want to be able to eat later on. Madonna's nipple slips out at 85 - Jesus Christ, isn't there an orderly around here to take care of this poor lady?

    27. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that.

      I get so annoyed with these morons. So you have "nothing to hide"? OK, what is your bank details and PIN? Quickly, dork, because only "guilty people" hide staff.

      See how stupid you are? Something to hide != wrong, plonker. Please use that big round thing on top of you spine.

    28. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm more worried about it being made compulsory.

      Somewhat ironic that GP waves the bloody toga of Matthew Sheppard in a thread about government over-reach "for the children".

      Hate crime laws are every bit as evil as the proposal to log internet activity.

    29. Re:Be good. by Cederic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I photograph the police whenever I see them as a matter of principle, due to this (and because they happily film/photograph the general public).

      It's also legal: http://www.met.police.uk/about/photography.htm
      It's also campaigned by pressure groups, e.g. http://photographernotaterrorist.org/
      There's a healthy media oversight of the issue, e.g. http://www.bjp-online.com/tag/street-rights

      The Guardian article you linked was part of the media coverage that led to the clarifications such as that Met police statement, so it was very helpful at the time, but is no longer completely accurate.

    30. Re:Be good. by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      Well that's what Obama is on the record of saying about the white house recently, at least.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    31. Re:Be good. by chrismcb · · Score: 2

      I hate it when people say this. At the risk of feeding a troll...

      Not everything you disagree with is a troll. The OP was being sarcastic.

    32. Re:Be good. by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Fight Club was a warning, not a manual!

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    33. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Genius. Pure genius.

    34. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also hate it when people say this. I used to reply just like you did, defending why there is a right to absence of oversight.
      Then it hit me: I don't need to justify why lack of oversight is reasonable. You need to justify why having oversight is reasonable.
      By the way, I'll give you a hint: I'm neither a pedophile nor a terrorist. So no oversight for those reasons (unless you can prove otherwise. In front of a judge. Then we're talking).

    35. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... dental floss thongs ...

      I'm not sure what that will hide.

      boobies never get old

      Well the women do and their firm bodies sag.

      You mentioned a thong, not a bikini, so presumably every school-girl will now be bare-breasted. Clothing for children, is a recent step in civilization, as family portraits from Egypt and Rome reveal. But modern sensibilities demand the opposite. Children are covered, fertile adults are exposed, and senior citizens are covered again.

    36. Re:Be good. by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      Thank god FLickr doesnt do that, else it would show porn to every one.

      Better stop watching those funny cat videos too.

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    37. Re:Be good. by Zoxed · · Score: 1

      Anonymous Coward:

      > Nothing to hide, nothing to fear.

      Interesting that you post anonymously then !!

    38. Re:Be good. by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      Hang on, Ill ask Assange on twitter if his buddies can ... sneak a cleaning lady in to 'ctrl-H', cutpaste to anona SD comment.

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    39. Re:Be good. by Kijori · · Score: 1

      I know this is a joke, but actually it makes a point that is worth making in response to the rather alarmist headline.

      Quoting from the preface to the bill:

      Nothing in these proposals will authorise the interception of the content of a communication. Nor will it require the collection of all internet data, which would be neither feasible, necessary nor proportionate. We will extend existing safeguards regarding data retention, access and oversight. And we will remove other statutory powers with weaker safeguards under which communications data can currently be accessed by public authorities.

      This bill would mean that:

      • -ISPs have to store "communications data" (what you connect to, for how long etc - not the content of any communications) for a period of up to 12 months
      • -The ISP must give the police access to the data if this is
        • -Required for one of a number of prescribed reasons (most notably, prevention or investigation of crime), and
        • -Authorised by a senior police officer

      The bill does not directly require judicial approval of a request for information, but as with other powers devolved to senior police officers the decision will be judicially reviewable. The bill would also allow the Investigatory Powers Tribunal to investigate use of the powers.

      I'm not sure, as yet, what to make of this bill. There are obviously privacy concerns in collecting this sort of information, and it would be very easy to simply declare that no intrusion into peoples' privacy is ever warranted. I think though that that would be an overly simplistic view. As more communications take place online there are more circumstances in which there is a good reason for authorities to want access to communications data, whether it's to find position data from the mobile phone of a kidnapped child, or to look for a pattern of communications when investigating organised crime. Neither shutting out law enforcement completely in the name of personal privacy, nor allowing unfettered access in the name of safety, is a sensible response.

      My reading of this bill is that it is an attempt to strike a balance by creating a tiered system. Data that is totally public is available to the police without any authorisation at all. Data that is not public, but where the invasion into privacy is less extensive (such as data on use of the internet but not including the content of any communications) requires justification and authorisation, but does not require judicial scrutiny. Where the intrusion is more extensive, as with interception of communications, the justification must be greater and judicial authorisation is required.

      I am not sure whether this is the correct balance - although I don't doubt that senior police officers will in general behave reasonably, I wonder how effectively they can be overseen when the person whose privacy is compromised will not know that the measures have been authorised - but it should be recognised that this is an attempt to balance competing issues.

    40. Re:Be good. by coastwalker · · Score: 1

      I also feel that it is my civic duty to use strong encryption, Tor networks and proxies where ever I can, just like the undesirables that universal internet monitoring fails to address. It has come to the point where the ordinary citizen is obliged to use weapons to defend their ordinary privacy. So much for half a century of Cold War fighting the communists. Turns out that western democracy is just as evil.

      --
      Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
    41. Re:Be good. by mSparks43 · · Score: 1

      Not as long as I have something to say about it

      -- Frank Drebin, Police Squad

      You want to blow up the Olympics and behead the Queen before the opening ceremonies?

      Good man, sounds like you are well placed to manifest the will of the people.

    42. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have nothing to hide you lead a truly sad life.

    43. Re:Be good. by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      So did Canada.

      It gets cold here, FFS.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    44. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh, wouldn't it be a shame if election results were faked, and even if the difference could be told, nothing could be done about it?

    45. Re:Be good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you close the door when you go to a public toilet? Do you have something to hide? Are you doing something illegal in there?

  2. Offshore VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    95% will continue oblivious to the dangers of mass surveillance. Those concerned about freedom and privacy have solutions...for now.

    1. Re:Offshore VPN by Terrasque · · Score: 2

      95% will continue oblivious to the dangers of mass surveillance. Those concerned about freedom and privacy have solutions...for now.

      And the criminals, of course. They've already started to use separate phones, or just leave them at home when doing misdeeds.

      And a decent VPN / TOR is not THAT hard to get going. And if it really is that hard to get going, then I'm sure they have some cash to hire a geek to fix it up for them.

      And even that's not really needed.. I read about one drug network that was run over facebook, with fake (female) profiles. Using separate laptops to log in with. Only reason why police found out about it was that one of them forgot his laptop at his brother's place, police raided it for some other reason, and found the laptop. If the criminals also had added truecrypt to the mix, police still wouldn't have any clue. And facebook support HTTPS, so can't log which profile and which data goes through there. If the guy also have a normal FB account, there's no way a 3rd party monitoring system can pick it up (except for some massive SSL root cert abuse)

      So in practice, these laws only monitor lawful citizens, and retarded criminals.. And the police shouldn't need all that just to catch retards.

      When DRD was pushed here in Norway, I tried to discuss this part of the problem with some politicians, they all went glassy-eyed and started repeating the party lines ("If we don't do this, Norway will be a free place for all the world's heavy criminals, and pedos, and nazis, and drug people, and other assorted bogey men. BE AFRAID!") or just refused to accept the possibility (had one that, after clearly admitting he knew nothing about the internet, stated as a fact that you can't go around it, and then ignored me)

      I am sick and tired of politicians making rules about things they don't even have a sliver of understanding about, don't want to understand, and shows an obscene amount of hubris if you try to even hint to them that they might start getting a clue, or at least listen to those that does have.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    2. Re:Offshore VPN by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      TOR is too slow.
      I use a VPN to my server in a DC and from there an https proxy server with an exit point outside my country for most browsing.

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    3. Re:Offshore VPN by EdIII · · Score: 1

      TOR is only slow because there is currently extremely poor community participation.

      If every single person had a big red button to enable a TOR exit node on their router, you would change your mind about the speed.

      There should be a fork of Tomato or DD-WRT with it. Last I checked there were some discussions, but nothing implemented.

      Considering how cheap a Raspberry Pi is, I am willing to bet that a TOR device could be constructed quite cheaply (with exit node enabled by default) and would be incredibly popular in the UK once its operation was explained.

    4. Re:Offshore VPN by KhabaLox · · Score: 1

      TOR is only slow because there is currently extremely poor community participation.

      If every single person had a big red button to enable a TOR exit node on their router, you would change your mind about the speed.

      I'm only passably familiar with TOR from reading /. comments. What's the liability to me for enabling an exit node? My understanding is that other people's traffic will hop over the network to my router, and then from there into the "open" internet. If I were in the UK and this law was in effect, would the ISP see this as my traffic?

      Also, do you need a host/server online to support the exit node, or does it just run on the router (I could look this answer up on the TOR site I'm sure, but since I'm already asking the other question...)

      --
      Ceci n'est pas un sig.
    5. Re:Offshore VPN by networkBoy · · Score: 1

      Yes it would look like your traffic.
      Yes you need a server (this can run as a process on your PC).
      No routers currently operate as an exit node (that I know of).

      --
      whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
    6. Re:Offshore VPN by marcello_dl · · Score: 2

      I wonder what's my liablity for not doing anything about mass surveillance. If you want to prevent crimes you want to reduce the number of suspects. Labeling a lot of people "potential terrorist" is instead a way to curb people discontent. Behave, Big brother watches you.
      And besides, all corrupt systems try to criminalize as many people as possible, it's difficult to control people which can easily live a clean life, it's pretty easy if you can get sent to court no matter what.

      I don't discount the possibility that our online rights are being targeted as a diversion while our independence in real life is being slowly reduced by regulations and an economic system which calls us human resources and favors replaceability of said cattl.. er resources.
      Here, we are simply shifting electrons around, real wealth and power are elsewhere.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    7. Re:Offshore VPN by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Depends where the nodes are located. More Tor nodes based in the UK will be bad as they'll just make traffic analysis more feasible given that data connected to all of the UK nodes Tor nodes can be watched.
      Secondly, what if I decide to run a Tor exit node (more of which will also be needed) and my node connects to something that the government finds objectionable or illegal? With this system, they'll now know and the owner could be prosecuted or investigated for it. Apprentice to a crime, maybe?

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    8. Re:Offshore VPN by tftp · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here, we are simply shifting electrons around, real wealth and power are elsewhere.

      People used to make just sound waves with their own mouths. Those waves couldn't propagate farther than a few meters. Still, those people were often arrested, imprisoned and killed. A technology that allows anyone to talk to unlimited audience over unlimited distances [on this planet] is far more dangerous.

      Speech in general is dangerous. All palace revolts, all military coups, all popular revolutions started with people who were speaking.

      In an ideally peaceful society free speech would be completely outlawed. Without being able to communicate you can only lead a revolt of one, easily suppressable. However such a society is likely to stagnate (see USSR.)

      The real problem with human societies is the people. Someone always wants something from others, be it money or power or attention. Those are called "troublemakers." But this is normal behavior for homo sapiens. We might just as well ask molecules to stop their Brownian motion. It's what they are.

      Democracy allows free speech on a slim chance that some of those new proposals are beneficial. In practice new political leaders only want to unseat current political leaders, and they use the people as fuel and cannon fodder for their purposes. Will Romney be better than Obama? Or worse? Or the same? Nobody knows; this is quantum information - the act of listening to either of those politicians changes the message. On top of that, the electorate is usually not even aware of all pertinent facts - because the facts are hard to find and because they are hard to comprehend. The electorate simply remembers who called them last and votes for that guy.

      I could even understand if a government would offer zero free speech in exchange for absolute safety and stability. But this is not going to happen, in any country. You would lose your free speech but the government would be even more abusive. Losing your freedom of speech (or freedom of speaking anonymously) does not come with any benefits whatsoever. Not to you, at least. The government benefits mightily.

    9. Re:Offshore VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Democracy allows free speech on a slim chance that some of those new proposals are beneficial.

      Here in the USA, we have these things called "individual rights." Or, well, we're supposed to. No, it isn't about the benefits, it's about the rights. It is difficult for people to live in hostile environments where their speech is constantly suppressed, and I think it's morally wrong.

      I believe people have a right to say things, beneficial or not.

    10. Re:Offshore VPN by tftp · · Score: 1

      It is difficult for people to live in hostile environments where their speech is constantly suppressed

      That's one of causes of stagnation. Yes, people are not chickens, they cannot live in little pens. History offers many examples of countries where dissent was an instant death sentence. Eventually people lose all desire to live.

      I believe people have a right to say things, beneficial or not.

      Perhaps. I'm sure Salman Rushdie is fully supporting the right of Islamists to demand his head on a platter. I don't know what Theo van Gogh has to say about it, I can't find my ouija board.

      Similarly, Communists in 1917 Russia used their free speech (not really a right, but they had it anyway) to kill tens of millions in 20th century. A certain other person, let he remain unmentioned here, used his right of free speech (which he did have) to construct one of evilest empires in history of the planet. (Pol Pot is nervously smoking in the corner.)

      Speech is a very sharp tool. It can kill millions, and it did just that more than once. Where do you draw a line? Will you allow paid agent provocateurs to lead your people off the cliff, like lemmings?

    11. Re:Offshore VPN by fredprado · · Score: 1

      The idea is to have routers everywhere and exit nodes in the places where it is more difficult for big brother to reach. Having exit points in high profile targets like political parties (as in the Pirate Party), and countries where the law still protect the right to privacy to a good extent is the ideal topology.

    12. Re:Offshore VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not really a contention issue it's more of a latency issue. When you're being shuffled through at least three nodes before your traffic exits to the Internet, you're going to suffer poor latency that results in poor performance.

    13. Re:Offshore VPN by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Similarly, Communists in 1917 Russia used their free speech (not really a right, but they had it anyway) to kill tens of millions in 20th century. A certain other person, let he remain unmentioned here, used his right of free speech (which he did have) to construct one of evilest empires in history of the planet. (Pol Pot is nervously smoking in the corner.)

      Inverse it is, yes.

      It's not those you've mentioned whose power of free speech is the active vector here.

      It is the elimination/suppression of other speech that is the evil part, and enables further evil.

      The answer to speech you dislike/disagree with is always *more* speech (voice your views as well), not less (suppressing/silencing opposing voices/opinions), in any society that could reasonably be called "free".

      The US is falling into this abyss as well as the UK, under an ever-expanding government. To my "scoring", the UK is ahead in blatant, "in your face" public domestic surveillance, but the US is far ahead in covert domestic surveillance.

      And please, let's not bring out that tired "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theater" thing in this thread. That's been rehashed to death on /. and elsewhere. This is about political speech.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    14. Re:Offshore VPN by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Not when the government is recording every transaction and also makes it illegal to circumvent their scrutiny. Send and encrypted email? Against the law. Log onto an anonymizer? Against the law. Using encryption the Government doesn't have the keys to? Against the law. MI5 will be right over.

    15. Re:Offshore VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... and when they start buying laptops with built in hard drive encryption and start using remotely accessed VPNs e default.. it is going to be a *lot* harder to catch the criminals.

      I am very worried about the approach some countries are taking on encryption.. if the law wants to break into a safe they can bust their way in. I am innocent until proven guilty. No barging onto my property and taking a copy of my personal private data without a warrant for a specific crime.

      The day will come though, I suspect, that they won't need to do any of the above. The 'authorities' will contact a judge, who will authorise a warrant, and they will duplicate all of your online data and hack into your PC / Phone / networked devices (using the vendor's back door skeleton key) before they even approach you to inform you that you have had a warrant served against you.

      Start protecting your data now.

    16. Re:Offshore VPN by tftp · · Score: 0

      The answer to speech you dislike/disagree with is always *more* speech (voice your views as well), not less (suppressing/silencing opposing voices/opinions), in any society that could reasonably be called "free".

      I wish it was that simple. The rise (and fall) of one Barack Hussein Obama is a good example. Speech was not really suppressed four years ago. Sure, First Amendment zones did not help, but you could make yourself heard. The problem is that sweet lies are much more pleasant than bitter truth. For example:

      tftp: "The USA is in trouble, and I don't see an easy way out. I can lead the country out of the hole but it will require reassessment of many things that Americans take for granted, and you can bet I will make you work hard, just like those Chinese workers that you despise so much."

      Obama: "The USA has few problems, but I, being the most experiencest world leader, am uniquely qualified to fix them at no cost to you. Elect me and I will deliver you the Moon - and perhaps a few stars too, for good measure. Most of you will not even need to work!"

      How do you fight this with truth? Truth may set you free, but it will not get you elected. People don't want to hear about difficult decisions and hard labor. They want ponies.

      The problem here is that democracy hinges on educated electorate that makes informed decisions even when those decisions are unpleasant. We are very far from that ideal, and that's why democracy in the West is failing. Initially not everyone could vote; one had to be a white, male property owner. The intent was to only collect votes of people who are sufficiently aware of the issues and have a dog in the fight. This was an artificial constraint, and eventually the bathwater was thrown out, along with the baby. Now you don't even need to be able to fog a mirror or be a citizen in order to vote. The voting system in the USA is kept convoluted and archaic before it becomes a very handy fiddle for fiddlers in Washington. How many countries are there in the world that don't ask for a citizen's ID at the polling booth?

    17. Re:Offshore VPN by BlueStrat · · Score: 0

      How do you fight this with truth? Truth may set you free, but it will not get you elected. People don't want to hear about difficult decisions and hard labor. They want ponies.

      You keep repeating the truth. Shout it from the figurative rooftops. Show your reasoning and evidence. The truth will set all of us free. If it didn't, there wouldn't be such intense, and even violent and illegal, efforts to silence those who speak out.

      Don't lose hope. Get motivated. People will surprise you. Tides are turning, and people are waking up. Shit is getting serious and affecting Joe Sixpack, his job, his family, and his lifestyle...and that's getting his attention. Talk to your friends, coworkers, family. Pester them to register and to vote. Sitting on one's hands and bemoaning the situation only guarantees things get worse.

      It used to be the case in this area that driving around with a TEA Party bumper sticker got you cursed at and fists shaken at you, even got your car "keyed" in parking lots. These days? People honk, smile, & wave. People see your TEA Party sticker in a parking lot, wait for you to return to your vehicle, and invite you to coffee (actually happened to me). This is in Michigan, too, of all places, headquarters for the auto unions and historically heavily Liberal/Progressive. People have had a now-3rd-world-Detroit, with other MI cities close on their heels, and the auto bailouts, failed stimulus, and Obamacare, give them a rude awakening.

      I hear you on the "informed & educated voter" topic, and agree to a great extent. However, I think (hope) that people today have an advantage that will mitigate these factors; the internet.

      The ability to inform and educate oneself, and be able to do it rapidly, is something that's never existed before as it does now. This has to play a role. How much is unknown. But, it gives hope along with the other general changes among people I've observed of late.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    18. Re:Offshore VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to think like you. Now I am more inclined to think that speech acts like a trigger. The most important part of an exploding device, but if there hasn't been a careful preparation in advance of it, it fizzles. /mode conspiracy keanu on
      What if freedom of speech is the placebo for those deprived of freedom of action, and the suppression of freedom of speech is meant to reinforce its placebo effect?

    19. Re:Offshore VPN by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      Does the term "free speech zone" mean anything to you? Here's a Wikilink that might help - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone.

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    20. Re:Offshore VPN by Fned · · Score: 1

      And please, let's not bring out that tired "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theater" thing in this thread. That's been rehashed to death on /. and elsewhere. This is about political speech.

      Strat

      So, like... shouting "fire" at a crowded political rally...?

    21. Re:Offshore VPN by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      And please, let's not bring out that tired "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theater" thing in this thread. That's been rehashed to death on /. and elsewhere. This is about political speech.

      Strat

      So, like... shouting "fire" at a crowded political rally...?

      Well, with the possible exception of an OWS rally/protest.

      They'd just trample you trying to light joints & crack pipes. Buying disposable lighters supports the Capitalist oppressors!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    22. Re:Offshore VPN by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      And please, let's not bring out that tired "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theater" thing in this thread. That's been rehashed to death on /. and elsewhere. This is about political speech.

      FIRE! Set by the Republican Army!

      There.. now it's political

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    23. Re:Offshore VPN by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      Only reason why police found out about it was that one of them forgot his laptop at his brother's place, police raided it for some other reason, and found the laptop. If the criminals also had added truecrypt to the mix, police still wouldn't have any clue. And facebook support HTTPS, so can't log which profile and which data goes through there. If the guy also have a normal FB account, there's no way a 3rd party monitoring system can pick it up (except for some massive SSL root cert abuse)

      1) The UK already has a law that can lock someone up for failing to decrypt data when asked to by a court, so Truecrypt won't help.
      2) This law gives the Home Secretary the power to do anything she wants to ensure access to communications data. That includes ordering website providers (including Facebook, while it has assets in the jurisdiction) to comply, so connecting securely to Facebook, Google etc. won't help you if they just roll over (which they have in the past to UK orders).
      3) This law would also give them the power to force any UK certificate authority to give the government what they need to perform man-in-the-middle attacks on encrypted traffic (combined with black boxes at all ISPs), so SSL won't help either. There are hints they already have such a thing lined up.

      Oh, and this doesn't just cover the Internet, but also phones and the post. Oh, and the police etc. can access this data without a warrant.

      While this may be a case of politicians not knowing what they're talking about, the people behind this *do*. That's the really scary part.

  3. We can so we do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    New tech has made it easier than ever before to spy on people in much larger numbers than ever before, and to a much greater degree than ever before.

    Bet your bottom dollar that every government in the world wants to do as much of this as they can manage.

    1. Re:We can so we do by Anrego · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed.

      It's an interesting yet terrifying time. The limitations of law enforcement are becoming less technical and more social. Technology is creating the potential for massively effective law enforcement, at a cost of massive loss of personal freedom. As a society we have to figure out where we want to draw that line. How much safety do we want to trade for how much privacy.

      The terrifying part is that society isn't really deciding so much as certain interested parties pushing in one direction and people en mass shrugging and going about their day.

    2. Re:We can so we do by White+Flame · · Score: 2

      Technology is creating the potential for massively effective law enforcement, at a cost of massive loss of personal freedom.

      And of course it's not just enabling law enforcement, but selective enforcement, identity theft, figuring out when a person won't have an alibi to frame them, tracking dissidents/competitors/rivals, and all sorts of other evils.

      You're correct in that the limitations set to grant privacy and freedom must be a strict social contract with accountability, paper trails, and monitored checks/balances in place, because the technical capability to breach them is simply too easy.

  4. The only answer by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Informative

    www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

    1. Re:The only answer by cpu6502 · · Score: 0

      "The category of Filter Avoidance has been blocked by your System Administrator."
      Question: How does Tor work? I installed it one time & it just sat there with no hosts to talk to. After a couple days I uninstalled it, since it seemed pointless.

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not the only answer...

    3. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really the only answer.
      I plan on using VPN server in a country that doesn't (openly) record everything I do.

      All the government and ISP should be able to see is an encrypted stream to my VPN server.

      It works much faster than TOR.

    4. Re:The only answer by turgid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oh, so you're a paedophile drug-dealing terrorist now, are you?

      You're probably a pinko-commie too!

    5. Re:The only answer by nospam007 · · Score: 0

      "Question: How does Tor work?"

      I guess you really want to know: How do I use it?
      Just use the link above and install it. It has a built-in Firefox with everything configured already.
      You just use it to surf like you always do.

    6. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, that's the short-term answer. The long-term answer is not just voting for the Pirate Party UK but making sure that everyone you know that's opposed to this also goes out and votes PPUK. Too many nerds don't want to actually physically go somewhere and be bothered with papers, etc. But the only way to put a stop to this is at the root, not circumvention.

    7. Re:The only answer by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Use Tor and you've told them everything they need to know...
      Seriously though, it will be interesting to see how the government responds to suddenly seeing an entire nation's Tor use. Either:
      (i) Everyone ends up becoming a suspect and gets subjected to other kinds of surveillance
      (ii) Tor (and similar methods) get banned.
      (iii) The system allows good statistical traffic analysis to be performed (less likely, as you'll be crossing borders but not impossible) and makes you less anonymous.
      Ultimately though, the system cannot catch smart criminals, criminals who were operating in the open (and might have been caught) will start going underground and will no longer be caught which means the system will only be useful against dumb criminals (who would have been caught anyway) and a entire nation of innocent suspects. Um, e-petition, anyone? http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32400
      How can the the same nation that gave the world Orwell, Huxley, Oxford and Cambridge decide to pass something as dumb and self-defeating as this?

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    8. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really the only answer. I plan on using VPN server in a country that doesn't (openly) record everything I do.

      All the government and ISP should be able to see is an encrypted stream to my VPN server.

      It works much faster than TOR.

      . . . and just hope it's not a government run honeypot.

    9. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use Tor and you've told them everything they need to know...

      How so? http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/06/12/0042214/fbi-hunt-for-child-porn-thwarted-by-tor

      I'm sure you'll find it's quite the contrary.

    10. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't Slashdot respect proper tags?

    11. Re:The only answer by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, Tor provides very good anonymity and should be able to do so even when this system is introduced: ultimately, they're not going to know what you're doing and shouldn't be able to see who you're connecting to on the other side of the Tor network. The problem is that your ISP knows who you are, knows where you live and knows that you're using Tor for some reason (one could deduce from the logs that you're using Tor as they'll show that you're connecting to a Tor node or they'll be able to use packet inspection). Given that the government will have access to your ISP's logs, they'll know that you're using Tor and, consequently, you reveal that you've got something to hide.
      End results is that you look suspicious: even if you're only trying to hide a minor secret (researching an embarrassing health condition over your landlord's wifi, say), it might cause the government to use heavier tactics against you in order to learn what it is. While this sounds paranoid, most people forget that the UK has a huge amount of existing legislation that would allow them to do this legally, easily and sometimes without court oversight.
      Examples: tap your phone, track your cellphone, inspect your mail, watch your credit card transactions, read your email or, perhaps scarily of all, track your car using the automated license plate recognition system that exists on all UK highways. I'm not making this stuff up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police-enforced_ANPR_in_the_UK
      UK domestic surveillance is frighteningly draconian and, amazingly, none of the population (many of who are convinced by "won't somebody please think of the children?") actually seem to give a damn.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    12. Re:The only answer by EdIII · · Score: 2

      Really?

      Where are you? I have installed TOR, and operated as an exit node, as recently as a few weeks ago. It is quite slow (5-15KB/s), but was immediately functional.

    13. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can the the same nation that gave the world Orwell, Huxley, Oxford and Cambridge decide to pass something as dumb and self-defeating as this?

      Ah, you can't be British then, otherwise you wouldn't ask that question..

      I already now have to use a Tor connection to view 4chan, as my UK ISP (Viirgeen Meedja) is intercepting/monitoring connections to it. They're routing all traffic through the machine/device originally installed on their networks to satiate the IWF, but which also appears to be the beast responsible for the enforcement of the Pirate Bay ban on their network.
      Of course, they're not doing this for /. yet...

    14. Re:The only answer by EdIII · · Score: 2

      There would be less anonymity initially for sure. If you had a thousand people, and only 10 people started using TOR right away, they just painted a target on themselves.

      You won't be anonymous, but you will still remain private (assuming encryption is not illegal too. Once the scales tip at about 30-40% there is no longer any detriment in anonymity since the costs of investigating and implementing extra monitoring on that many nodes would be very cost prohibitive.

      That being said, they are already throwing billions at this. I fail to see how any onion routing service can remain anonymous when you are recording traffic from all 3 nodes (TOR defaults) at the same time. Only way around that is to choose an intermediate node and exit node outside of a UK ISP. Expensive from a latency/bandwidth viewpoint, and just as easily mitigated by terminating all TOR sessions at the edge of the networks.

      There is no such thing as true anonymity on the Internet. There is plausible deniability (TOR and Freenet operate this way) and hijacking of connections, but all sessions can be traced back down to a single source.

      So unless you want to run around hacking into wireless connections and using innocent people as a shield for your communications, you will be settling for a lesser form of anonymity.

      P.S - How do they figure out who is emailing whom again? Unless the mail server is with an ISP or the SMTP session is in plain text, you cannot read the email headers.

    15. Re:The only answer by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      "P.S - How do they figure out who is emailing whom again? Unless the mail server is with an ISP or the SMTP session is in plain text, you cannot read the email headers."
      Doesn't the law give real time access to logs?

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    16. Re:The only answer by EdIII · · Score: 1

      How does the law force Google, or a foreign mail service (like GoDaddy, appriver, etc.) to turn over the logs?

    17. Re:The only answer by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Yes, Tor is known vulnerable to traffic analysis but if you can bounce between non-UK nodes, you should still be ok (I think). I guess that VPNing out to a proxy in a neutral country and then connecting to the Tor network might also bypass it.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    18. Re:The only answer by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      That's a good point... I suppose that USA/UK data sharing could be a possibility: there's been the whole NSA warrantless surveillance controversy. Don't know about other jurisdictions.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    19. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was referring to the (url)www.slashdot.org(/url) tags - brackets swapped out for arrows obviously.

    20. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      perhaps scarily of all, track your car using the automated license plate recognition system that exists on all UK highways. I'm not making this stuff up

      I'm afraid that's where you are wrong, we do not have an ANPR camera every 100 yards as I do not live in London. the nearest ANPR camera from me (not counting petrol stations) is about 3 miles from where I live, there are roads that bypass this camera without having a camera of their own, and no I don't live in the countryside either.

    21. Re:The only answer by tftp · · Score: 1

      How does the law force Google, or a foreign mail service (like GoDaddy, appriver, etc.) to turn over the logs?

      "Google, you can comply with our law or be out of our country in ... [looks at the wristwatch] exactly five minutes. Oh, if five minutes is not enough for you then we arrest all your equipment. Your choice."

    22. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "... Orwell, Huxley, Oxford and Cambridge ..."

      Man, if there was ever an appropriate time to use the Oxford comma...

    23. Re:The only answer by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Ok.. does Google have hardware in the UK? Obviously they have the cams going around, but any servers in the UK?

      That might work on Google, but it will not apply to all hosted services. There are quite a few. Amazon EC2, GoGrid, ThePlanet, Azure, and any number of hosted VPS solutions are good examples.

      What if I visit the UK (highly unlikely at this point) and use SSL protected sessions between me and my mailserver hosted back in the US?

    24. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      the other "only answer" to this is encrypted wireless mesh networking. FreedomBoxFoundation.org.

    25. Re:The only answer by tftp · · Score: 1

      Ok.. does Google have hardware in the UK? Obviously they have the cams going around, but any servers in the UK?

      They do have www.google.co.uk ... I don't know where the hardware is, but even if it is Sealand the UK government can prohibit Google from providing services to UK subjects.

      If the UK bosses really get angry they can even issue an arrest warrant for Google personnel - and it will be executed in EU. Governments have a lot of weight and they know it. They can even send MI\d to assassinate or kidnap an unwanted person - and if caught they will not be punished. The USA is doing killing openly from the air, for years. Israel kidnapped Mordechai Vanunu and... crickets. Assange is getting ready for a perfectly legal railroading.

      That might work on Google, but it will not apply to all hosted services.

      The logic above tells us that it will apply to anything and anyone that the UK bureucrats point at. For a preview of the future see China. All countries will have firewalls, and intentional bypassing of them will be a crime. You say it can't be done? See China again. You say that citizens of $western_country will not allow that? It only depends on the size of the next horrific terrorist act. With blood of children for lubrication, population of any country will let their government do whatever they declare necessary. The PATRIOT act is just one example; it was adopted within two months from 9/11, even before all the rubble was removed.

      What if I visit the UK (highly unlikely at this point) and use SSL protected sessions between me and my mailserver hosted back in the US?

      Today - nothing. Tomorrow you may be unable to establish an SSL connection. The port 443 will be blocked; and if you are smart enough to run SSL on port 80 then the traffic analyzer will kill the connection. You will have no option but to drop to plaintext. If you are even smarter you can use steganography... just don't get caught, it's a certain jail time in police states.

      Industrial use of VPNs will be allowed, but... you must have a license, and the license comes with your personal FIPS140 encryption device that encrypts your traffic to the nearest government-provided VPN exit into the greater Internet. This device authenticates you as a licensed user; it also encrypts your traffic until it hits the VPN; and finally it allows the government to record your VPN activity.

      If you insist on having your own VPN box (as most companies will do) then the government may relent and only require an encrypted tunnel (with already encrypted VPN data inside) to their exit point. Then the encryption device only does authentication of you as a licensed user.

      Scenarios can be numerous. It's not hard to break the Internet.

    26. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I already now have to use a Tor connection to view 4chan, as my UK ISP (Viirgeen Meedja) is intercepting/monitoring connections to it.

      You have evidence of this? My VM connection to 4chan appears to be working fine (albeit 4chan's only up due to cloudflare, but that looks like third party interference rather than VM).

    27. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    28. Re:The only answer by Isaac+Remuant · · Score: 3, Informative

      You just use it to surf like you always do.

      But if you surf exactly like you always do you're not going to use tor efficiently.

      Tor full list of warnings

      --
      "Science can amuse and fascinate us all, but it is engineering that changes the world. " - Asimov.
    29. Re:The only answer by jez9999 · · Score: 2

      none of the population (many of who are convinced by "won't somebody please think of the children?") actually seem to give a damn.

      I give a damn and I'm British. It does make one wonder what we bothered to fight the Communists for. All the stuff they did seems to be perfectly acceptable to the baby boomers in this country as long as you do it under the banner of "fighting crime/terrorism". Maybe people just didn't want to learn Russian.

    30. Re:The only answer by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      If only PPUK weren't run by a bunch of rude, arrogant pricks (as well as having a freaking ugly white-on-cyan logo), I might be prepared to vote for or promote them. Shame, that. I support the Pirate Party movement in general, though.

    31. Re:The only answer by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Unless "Oxford and Cambridge" really are meant to go together...

    32. Re:The only answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes i agree, please kill my freedoms politely

    33. Re:The only answer by Dominic · · Score: 1

      Or you could vote for the Green Party, who would stop all of this nonsense and actually have a chance to implement it.

  5. Europe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I am disappoint.

  6. Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is apparently a Bill that has not actually been passed yet.

    1. Re:Summary is misleading. by wierd_w · · Score: 5, Insightful

      no, but it will.

      It may take several attempts, but it eventually will.

      The reason is simple: the powers that be *want* this. Much like SOPA, PIPA, ACTA, and whatever the current generation mutant strain is, keeps getting brandished about like a giant black rubber donkey dildo. The public says no, but the powers that be want to fuck us. They keep whipping out dildo after dildo, refusing to take the hint that we *DON'T WANT ANY* dildos, not just that specific one.

      When they finally manage to snooker us into taking it (all the way I might add, without any lube), then they tell all their friends about it, and from then on, that type of dildoing becomes standard practice, for everyone, everywhere.

      What we need is to propose counter legislation FORBIDDING proposals of this type. Simply defeating every proposed terror dick they whip out of their rape kit won't work.

    2. Re:Summary is misleading. by Kittenman · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's usually standard practice to use a car analogy on Slashdot, but I find your new item quite refreshing. And a point well made.

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason is simple: the powers that be *want* this.

      Even that isn't true. The Lib Dems are pretty strongly opposed to this, as are some high profile Tories, David Davis being probably the most obvious figurehead.

      This is the usual power grab by police/security services/whoever, backed by the usual FUD about terrorism and organised crime. It's probably also something of a "We can still be friends, right?" from the Home Office to the police, whom the government in general and the current Home Secretary in particular have annoyed a lot in recent weeks.

      Something might get through, but I very much doubt it will look anything like this by the time it's been done over by civil libertarians, ISPs who would have to foot the bill, and people who actually have a clue about technology. We as a nation might be far less protective of our privacy than I personally would like, but we're not completely clueless. Look at the way ID cards were beaten down, despite a huge push from government. More recently, look at the way the way the government at EU level has turned against ACTA, despite the national governments of almost every member state already ratifying it and publicly claiming they support it.

      Even in the US, where the popular claim is that the government don't care about anything much any more, look how fast the politicians got educated about SOPA and PIPA and in many cases completely flipped their position after the entire Internet decided to teach them that these things matter. A lot of the time, the problem is that the legislators are naive and just listen to the loudest voices; never attribute to malice that which can be sufficiently explained by incompetence, as the old saying goes.

      You're right that certain organisations will keep trying. Maybe that's how it's supposed to be. It's not exactly the spies' job to look out for people's privacy, after all. We just have to make sure that the other side of the debate is heard as well, and that anything that reaches the statute books is a sensible balance between the competing interests.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    4. Re:Summary is misleading. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      What we need is to propose counter legislation FORBIDDING proposals of this type.

      Meaningless.

      New laws automagically supersede older laws. So as soon as they pass the next generation of privacy-invading law, it'll supersede the "you can't invade people's privacy" law...

      In the USA, we'd have to have Constitutional Amendment to make these things go away forever.

      And that's not going to happen, since it requires a supermajority in both the House and Senate, plus the approval by 38 States.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And even then you just need the courts to decide the amendment itself is unconstitutional, which has already happened on a state level, so there's no reason to believe it couldn't happen on the Federal level, too.

    6. Re:Summary is misleading. by wierd_w · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What makes you think that the powers that be are the representatives/senators/MPs/whatevers?

      Multinational interests have powers that flow fluidly accross multiple political jurisdictions. They are the ones that want the dildo in your hole.

      They won't stop until they are either told sraight up that they can't, or until they succeed in getting one rammed in there.

      Despite what they might say, multinational corporations are not people. They are not human. They don't tire of devising ever more terrifying dicks to aim at you. They never get tired of trying, because they know that as long as they keep at it, they will eventually succeed.

      If you think accepting a tiny dildo as a compromise is a sensible solution to the problem, I have only one thing to say:

      Enjoy.

    7. Re:Summary is misleading. by MalachiK · · Score: 1

      The moral panic that broken out in the news lately would be funny if it wasn't so fucking frightening. But mainly though it pisses me off that all of this 'think of the children' bullshit or vague allusions to stopping terrorists passes unchallenged most of the time.

      Behold this master plan by the Andrea Leadsom and the Mothers Union to stop teenagers looking at porn http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17826515 Good luck with that! But while it's not going to work, it's a great excuse to get some extra control of the internet.

      And yesterday, no less a person than the Deputy Childrens Commissioner for England was making the case for mobile interet censorship on the grounds that... and I'm not making this up... children in London routinely expect to be gang raped for hours in public parks by teenagers who've been watching porn on their phones. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18422204

    8. Re:Summary is misleading. by hoggoth · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've been standing in the park for four fucking hours now. Where the hell are the teenagers?!

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
    9. Re:Summary is misleading. by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      No silly! Read it again!

      The porn addled teenagers only gangbang CHILDREN!

      You have to dress like a prepubescent cubscout if you want to get any action!

    10. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They won't stop until they are either told sraight up that they can't, or until they succeed in getting one rammed in there.

      since dildos are the analog: i knew a guy who knew a guy who was in prison, and apparently, you don't "tell" people not to rape you... you stop them.

    11. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But there are no teenagers even in the park to gangbang the children.

    12. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The Lib Dems are pretty strongly opposed to this

      The Lib Dems are FUCKING LIARS.

    13. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What, no goatse link? It wouldn't be off topic...

    14. Re:Summary is misleading. by wild_quinine · · Score: 2

      It's usually standard practice to use a car analogy on Slashdot

      Imagine them forcing a car... all the way into your ass.

    15. Re:Summary is misleading. by GrahamCox · · Score: 1

      The Lib Dems are pretty strongly opposed to this

      By "strongly opposed" you mean they're whining mildly. I used to support the Lib Dems, at Uni I even edited our local group's party newsletter. But now they have got into power (sort of) they have proven themselves to have no backbone, and are basically a conservative lap-dog. That's not what I stood for when I supported them AT ALL. I'm sorely disappointed.

      If they want to regain my respect, they need to introduce a bill (and fight for it) that positively keeps government snooping of this sort off the table by law. Turning over records to the police with a warrant on the basis of reasonable suspicion is one thing, but this is just intrusive mass surveillance far beyond the wildest dreams of Honecker's STASI.

      Nick Clegg couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag, politically speaking. Frankly, I'm glad I emigrated, though it's something of a frying pan/fire situation since where the UK leads, Australia often follows. But I still feel the pain of my countrymen, friends and family. Vive la revolution!

    16. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      Well, I'm from Cambridge, where our Lib Dem MP not only stood by his promise to students but also has a clue when it comes to technical matters and is one of the more prominent voices in Parliament trying to restore some sanity to this particular debate. So while I have little sympathy with the Lib Dems who got into government and then stabbed the students in the back, just as I had little sympathy when the last Labour MP here made a similar mistake and later lost her seat, I don't agree that all Lib Dems are "FUCKING LIARS". It's simply not true.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    17. Re:Summary is misleading. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I'm from Cambridge, where our Lib Dem MP
      What, Muppert? ha ha ha ha ha

    18. Re:Summary is misleading. by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      The Lib Dem leadership is supporting this, due to the addition of certain "safeguards" (although I haven't been able to spot them yet). I was at an event a few weeks ago when one of their junior ministers explained their position, he spoke for a good 5 minutes without actually saying anything. It's the backbench Lib Dems and Conservatives (the ones who don't get the weekly security briefings scaring them as to all the evil terrorists out there) that are trying to fight this.

  7. Time to invest in EMC... by mlts · · Score: 1

    With the requirement to store every single thing users do, it might be a good time to invest in EMC because it is going to require an enterprise (VNX level) SAN to record all what is going on, as well as the licenses for features like deduplication (since a bunch of troll posts are usually alike, the SAN can store one copy, and pointers to the others.)

    As a user in the UK, I'd be looking to find the best always-on VPN service, one in the country (since some services are country-locked), and one situated somewhere less repressive but close by, network-wise, perhaps Sweden or Norway.

    I'm sure that is going to be coming to the US really soon (if it isn't already present), so guess it is time to find a Canadian VPN provider.

    1. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by sithlord2 · · Score: 1

      Meh... they'll probably use ZFS :-)

      --
      ...You are over-qualified and under-paid. If we give you a raise, we will break the cosmic balance of the universe.
    2. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You think Canada is any safer? Read on bill C-30. While it was shot down a while ago, it's coming back. It used to be called the lawful access act, until it was renamed "The Protecting Children from Internet Predators Act". I'm not sure if they will keep the same name for the new iteration.

    3. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      A dildo by any other name is still used to fuck you.

    4. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by Hatta · · Score: 1

      perhaps Sweden or Norway

      Is Sweden all that safe anymore? After the issues with The Pirate Bay and Julian Assange, and crazy shit like this, Sweden doesn't seem that appealing anymore.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by Terrasque · · Score: 1

      Sweden have been doing this shit for years already, and here in Norway the politicians are working their asses off to log everything, too. Only, not one of those politicians have any clue about computers, so they still have no idea what should be logged (and thus it's still not active, even tho it should be active from April this year).

      And, as an extra bonus, they leave the bill to the ISP's. Because, you know, anything else would be expensive.

      The really sad part is, one of the reasons the police wants longer storage (at the moment there is a law that no data can be stored for more than 6 months, including data required to calculate bills and so forth) is that THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MANPOWER to check the data that is collected now within the 6 months period... So the obvious solution is to gather MUCH MORE data to go through, and thus require even more work being spent on it... Logical, right? Welcome to Circus Norway.

      --
      It's The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."
    6. Re:Time to invest in EMC... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is good idea.
      In order to increase my investment profitability:
      create script which selects random https proxy (outside UK), best solution in strange regions of the world ....with not so good relations with UK gov.
      post or download your random large file to another server you have acccess , outside of UK
      let ISP record such communication.

      rinse and repeat.
      buy more EMC shares ....
      Get rich, leave UK

  8. This is why the good lord.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    made temporary cloud server instances.

  9. Data growth and filtering? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Having not read the paper, or article..... If they're backing up everything, meaning, every BIT that traverses more than 1 hop, does the UK have enough storage for that continuously expanding data pool?

    If they don't, then they have to be doing filtering. If they're filtering, what data, and who is deciding what is being filtered? And of course, UK citizens will be footing the bill, either by State tax, or ISP tax.

    Even as a foriegner, this is entirely sickening from afar!

    1. Re:Data growth and filtering? by mattr · · Score: 2

      They could be analyzing in real time, which would vastly shrink the storage needed.

      That said this legislation should greatly push the general public toward encryption of all usage, hand in hand with periodic disclosure of government abuse over time. Since not just the bad guys are being surveilled. Of course it is the same as what happens in other European / North American countries one could presume, they are just putting it into law that the public can see..

    2. Re:Data growth and filtering? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      hints for you:

      hardware based triggers. and support for 'user written apps' in core routers.

      add it up, mate. its there today. no need to store it all; just pick out the 'interesting' bits. the value is in writing clever triggers that can run at hardware speeds.

      (just saying; or rather, guessing. no, I have no specific info. don't shoot the messenger.)

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  10. Wonder what the ECHR will say about this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    A right to privacy is enshrined in the European Convention of Human Rights. Exceptions are permitted only as "neccessary". Shall be interesting to see what happens if osmebody challenges this proposal, forcing the ECHR to consider what is "neccessary" in this context.

    1. Re:Wonder what the ECHR will say about this. by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      If you read the bill document, there's a chunk dedicated to explaining why this doesn't breach Article 8.

      That may not convince the ECrtHR though, but the government is also trying to drive back the scope of article 8, so they may get away with it. Even if they don't, if it goes anything like the illegal stop-and-search powers under s44 Terrorism Act 2000, the powers could be in place for a decade before it gets fixed.

  11. Steal Time on your Nemesis' Computer by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    Protecting yourself against malicious use of your computers will become mandatory...or else you can get framed.

  12. Encryption,storage? by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 2

    You might not be so happy to find out that from now, every single thing you do online will be recorded and stored by the good old Internet Service providers (ISP). What do we mean by online activity? Well, everything. From exchanging emails, browsing history, instant messaging to the most important use of social networks.

    For stuff like emails, wont encryption be an issue?
    And for other stuff, storing the MASSIVE amounts of data
    I have no stats to back this up, but on a national level, wont the storage requirement touch Petabytes per day? (or atleast 100's of Terabytes per day?)

    1. Re:Encryption,storage? by Creepy · · Score: 1

      TFA says the government will foot the 1.8 billion pounds (about 2.8 billion dollars) cost. Not sure if that is just storage or storage and monitoring tools because I didn't read the 123 page paper.

      Still, this sounds like a good time to put hard disk and tape drives into my investment portfolio and maybe pray for more Thailand floods (causing another shortage and thus prices going up).

    2. Re:Encryption,storage? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Currently they store the from and to addresses of all emails sent, as well as the subject line, date stamp and IP address of the machine connecting to the server (usually your router, but not always). Encryption makes no difference as you can't encrypt the headers since obviously the server needs to read them.

      For web monitoring they record the domain name of every site requested by each connection. It isn't clear how it is implemented, but presumably it is some kind of DPI to intercept HTTP requests rather than simple DNS logging (although DNS is also logged). Additionally the requesting IP address and datestamp are recorded. Encryption doesn't help much because the DNS lookup won't be encrypted and the IP address of every web server connected too will still be logged.

      Tor really is the only option if you value privacy. I use it a lot now because the feeling that some anonymous government agent could be watching over my shoulder the whole time is just too creepy.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Encryption,storage? by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 1

      Currently they store the from and to addresses of all emails sent, as well as the subject line, date stamp and IP address of the machine connecting to the server (usually your router, but not always). Encryption makes no difference as you can't encrypt the headers since obviously the server needs to read them.

      For web monitoring they record the domain name of every site requested by each connection. It isn't clear how it is implemented, but presumably it is some kind of DPI to intercept HTTP requests rather than simple DNS logging (although DNS is also logged). Additionally the requesting IP address and datestamp are recorded. Encryption doesn't help much because the DNS lookup won't be encrypted and the IP address of every web server connected too will still be logged.

      Tor really is the only option if you value privacy. I use it a lot now because the feeling that some anonymous government agent could be watching over my shoulder the whole time is just too creepy.

      ok you're going to have to back that shit up with some evidence as iir a bill for only one of those things has passed, and when it did they were like omg htf are we gonna pull this shit off?

      --
      The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    4. Re:Encryption,storage? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Currently they store the from and to addresses of all emails sent, as well as the subject line, date stamp and IP address of the machine connecting to the server (usually your router, but not always). Encryption makes no difference as you can't encrypt the headers since obviously the server needs to read them.

      SMTP-TLS plus using an offshore server and the ISP will only know that you may have sent an email, but to whom it was sent and the contents will be completely unknown (unless the ISPs start doing man-in-the-middle attacks on SSL traffic).

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    5. Re:Encryption,storage? by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      I have no stats to back this up, but on a national level, wont the storage requirement touch Petabytes per day? (or atleast 100's of Terabytes per day?)

      Most of the data transferred on the internet is just a copy of another piece of data. So if you only store the new data, then the requirements drop to a much more manageable level.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    6. Re:Encryption,storage? by mehrotra.akash · · Score: 1

      Currently they store the from and to addresses of all emails sent, as well as the subject line, date stamp and IP address of the machine connecting to the server (usually your router, but not always). Encryption makes no difference as you can't encrypt the headers since obviously the server needs to read them.

      But, if you are using say, Gmail over a https connection, how would UK find out the headers in that case?
      Your connection to GMail is encrypted, Gmail to destination(say, Hotmail) could happen outside UK, and destination(Hotmail) can be viewed over an encrypted connection again

    7. Re:Encryption,storage? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You have to make a HTTPS connection to Google's Gmail servers. They can't see the exact URL you visit but they can see that connection. Plus the DNS lookup for mail.google.com is unencrypted.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Encryption,storage? by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      ...(unless the ISPs start doing man-in-the-middle attacks on SSL traffic)

      This law gives the government the power to order ISPs to do this, and to order any UK certificate authorities to co-operate. Oh, and this can be done secretly, with only a couple of government thingamies needing to be consulted.

    9. Re:Encryption,storage? by Grumbleduke · · Score: 1

      But, if you are using say, Gmail over a https connection, how would UK find out the headers in that case?
      Your connection to GMail is encrypted, Gmail to destination(say, Hotmail) could happen outside UK, and destination(Hotmail) can be viewed over an encrypted connection again.

      They can find them out either by doing man-in-the-middle attacks on the traffic, or by compelling Google (or Microsoft) to give them access anyway. While these companies may have their main offices outside the UK, while they have assets in the UK they can still be sued.

    10. Re:Encryption,storage? by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      This law gives the government the power to order ISPs to do this, and to order any UK certificate authorities to co-operate. Oh, and this can be done secretly, with only a couple of government thingamies needing to be consulted.

      That requires the people in government to have a clue. Possible, but unlikely. Anyway, if they go so far as to target you by setting up a man-in-the middle attack like this, you probably have bigger things to worry about.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  13. Riots by onyxruby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why aren't their riots in the streets over this? For years I have heard about Europe being very pro-privacy. I have even worked with their privacy standards from a professional standpoint.

    What went wrong? Seriously, how on earth did this ever happen? Your cars and your online activities are all being monitored by your government with your blessing! The communists never had it that good, all they got were phone calls and letters. You gave your own government a blessing to invade your privacy at a level the East German's could have only dreamed of. Something is very, very wrong in UK today. What the hell happened?

    1. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This has not even been debated by Parliament yet, so unless all hope is lost, it will not pass. It's one thing to propose a bill, it's another altogether to make it into law...

    2. Re:Riots by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      "For years I have heard about Europe being very pro-privacy."

      Europe is not entirely united. There is a lot of national variation. The UK is particually susceptable to the old 'think of the children' - we've been in a pedophile-panic here for years that is even worse than in the US.

    3. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Continental Europe is largely pro-privacy. The UK is another story entirely. They lead the charge as a surveillance state among first world nations. Sadly, I don't think we in the US are that far behind.

    4. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The EU is not one country.

      There was huge opposition against a similar law in Germany and it was repealed. Disgust over the data retention law was an important motivation for the increased interest in the Pirate Party, which is now present in several state parliaments. Germany is currently being sued by the EU for not implementing the EU directive which calls for these laws. The conservatives keep pushing for data retention, and they'll get it eventually, but this is not an easy fight for them at all.

      On the other hand, there is the UK, where CCTV surveillance is everywhere. Not the same country.

    5. Re:Riots by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      >>>pedophile-panic

      In the U.S. nudist websites (including kids) are legal. How does the UK handle them? Have they been banned?

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    6. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes what the hell happened? The Tory party when in opposition opposed the National ID Card scheme, on the basis of privacy concerns and cost. They and their supporters often quoting George Orwell. As soon as they were in power they cancelled the scheme.

      Now the very same part are going to spy on what everyone does on the internet, and it's going cost 1.5 billion UKP. At a time when all public services are being cut back.

      Even accepting the fact that they are huge hypocrites, this does not make sense.

      So what manner of corruption is going on here?

    7. Re:Riots by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      We try to pretend they don't exist, and nudists live in fear because they know that if anything looks even the remotest bit suggestive involving children then they'll have a lynch mob coming to visit. Just run an image search on 'nudist' - you'll notice that children are entirely absent, because no-one would be dumb enough to share that part of the photo album with the world.

    8. Re:Riots by newcastlejon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why aren't their riots in the streets over this? For years I have heard about Europe being very pro-privacy. I have even worked with their privacy standards from a professional standpoint.

      Because this is a bill that hasn't been voted on, much less passed and will more than likely be knocked back by the House of Lords so many times it'll be re-drafted into something impotent. The summary isn't merely wrong, it's practically as bad as the Daily Mail in terms of hyperbole:

      "You might not be so happy to find out that from now, every single thing you do online will be recorded and stored by the good old Internet Service providers (ISP)." (emphasis mine)

      What went wrong? Seriously, how on earth did this ever happen? Your cars and your online activities are all being monitored by your government with your blessing!

      By cars, I expect you mean the ANPR cameras that check for valid tax and insurance. These are always accompanied by signs letting you know they're there, just like speed cameras.

      The communists never had it that good, all they got were phone calls and letters.

      Indeed, I imagine that very few people in Soviet Bloc countries had access to the Internet or their own cars

      You gave your own government a blessing to invade your privacy at a level the East German's could have only dreamed of.

      Yeah... sure.

      Something is very, very wrong in UK today. What the hell happened?

      Nothing happened; the press still use sensationalism and the people are still subject to about the same level of surveillance as in most other First World countries. And before someone trots out the millions of CCTV cameras thing again, let me just say that it's been debunked so many times it doesn't even merit a citation.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    9. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google takes pictures of views visible from public roads and people piss themselves. Government wants to go full KGB on the people and there is no problem.

    10. Re:Riots by Talonius · · Score: 1

      It's sad that I wanted to post a joke in reply to this post, but I'm afraid it would be logged, tracked, and used against me in a court of law.

      --
      My reality check bounced.
    11. Re:Riots by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      There is some hope. There was a bit on the radio today about a company offering free wifi in London, and when they interviewed a few potential users all of them asked what the company was getting out of it and what personal data they wanted. A couple mentioned spying on users too. It seems that a lot of young people are at least aware of privacy issues.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Riots by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Think of the children? These people should be thinking that they've just robbed their children of the right to privacy. They're most certainly not thinking of the children.

    13. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      By cars, I expect you mean the ANPR cameras that check for valid tax and insurance. These are always accompanied by signs letting you know they're there, just like speed cameras.

      Even if you are right, and I don't know that you are: In what way does the existence of signs make it in any way OK? In case you've forgotten, in 2001, the state had lots of signs saying "Big Brother is watching you."

    14. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      2001? What am I thinking of?! I mean 1984 of course!

    15. Re:Riots by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, we're putting all the trigger words in the thread.

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    16. Re:Riots by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      In what way does the existence of signs make it in any way OK?

      I didn't say it did, but clearly marked cameras aren't really comparable to the near-omnipresent electronic panopticon* that was portrayed in Nineteen Eighty-Four (a minor niggle: the book isn't called 1984). Besides which, there's a big difference between surveillance of certain public places/roads and a telescreen in every home. There's also a difference between looking for "thoughtcrime" amongst the public and catching uninsured drivers on the roads or violent criminals in the streets.

      Invoking Nineteen Eighty-Four should be counted alongside Godwinning.

      *This part is important. Party members could never know whether or not they were being observed.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    17. Re:Riots by 0123456 · · Score: 2

      So what manner of corruption is going on here?

      Politicians.

      You didn't really think the Tories were any less corrupt than Labour, did you?

    18. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      No, I always knew they were even more corrupt. I'm just interested in who is bunging money to who to get this travesty put into action.

    19. Re:Riots by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      Invoking Nineteen Eighty-Four should be counted alongside Godwinning.

      Sure! Observe: As an online discussion goes on, the probability of a comparison with Nineteen-Eightyfour approaches one.

      Which has fuck all to do with the "making a comparison with Nazis or Nineteen-Eightyfour is a logical fallacy and means loosing the argument" wannabe-law nameless people seem to be dreaming up again and again, just because they saw someone else do it, and thereby painting Godwin as a dumb fuck he probably isn't, through no fault of his own. People just smugly say "Godwin's law", as if that means anything -- instead of, oh I don't know, reading the thing, which would clear it up real quick.

      And no, this doesn't take away from your other points, they stand on their own. Though I would say that by now, there is a telescreen in every home. Just because it doesn't watch you making breakfast, too, instead of just monitoring the stuff that you need to learn, communicate and organize, doesn't make it anything else.

    20. Re:Riots by misexistentialist · · Score: 2

      Probably cause England handed out sentences of several years for people involved in the previous riot, and also has stocked up on semi-lethal crowd control weapons.

    21. Re:Riots by Flipstylee · · Score: 1

      Fear.

      The People are all pussies now, including You and I, because we discuss it now rather than taking to the streets.

      OTOH, if we run to the streets, we are just as good as our ONE vote divided, so we must band together, and now we're labeled as terrorists
      without all our money and power (we gave it to them), so they single us out on facebook, or better yet get us all in a Jon Doe indictment ala MPAA/RIAA.
      *Removes Tinfoil-Hat*: i'd throw it away, but even when this is absolute reality people will still imagine it on my head.

    22. Re:Riots by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      Why aren't their riots in the streets over this?

      The British seem to be the people least likely to get upset over their privacy being taken away. Their government has been taking away their privacy for years, and yet you really never hear a peep from the general populace. One can only conclude that they really don't give a shit.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    23. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Something is very, very wrong in UK today. What the hell happened?"

      It's not just the UK. Look at gamers giving away their rights to own games /w diablo 3 and DRM. Or people paying more for "digital goods" then for the game they paid for. People are dumb as fuck. Just look at how gamers DEFENDED blizzard for taking away their rights and inventing bullshit stories to justify a worse gaming experience. It's not JUST the UK it's pretty much everywhere.

      America has the NDAA
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act

      Canada has Harpers Spying being passed with the omnibus budget bill (since they have a majority).

      http://www.canada.com/health/primer+Harper+government+omnibus+budget+bill/6765412/story.html

    24. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a sibling mentioned Europe is not homogeneous, even more importantly is that in a lot of places (Germany in particular) the laws seem very pro-privacy to Americans because they're always going after Google, Facebook, banks, etc. What we don't see is how none of these laws apply in the slightest to the government and how no one seems to care.
       
        There was just a case where the police literally broke into a mans apartment, without a warrant, to install surveillance equipment in his computer. Completely legal, apparently.

    25. Re:Riots by PSdiE · · Score: 1

      So what manner of corruption is going on here?

      Whilst the pushers (Home Secretary Theresa May and her cronies) claim this is about tackling serious organised crime, the actual legislation makes no such restriction.

      Likely key benefactors are HMR&C tax collectors (e.g., eBay sales), high level smear campaign organisers (e.g., Assange, political opponents), and of course Big Media - our DCMS (Ed Vaizey et al) is a complete puppet for the copyright industry.

    26. Re:Riots by mpe · · Score: 1

      There was huge opposition against a similar law in Germany and it was repealed.

      The real surprise is that it got passed in the first place. The Stasi (Ministerium für Staatssicherheit) isn't from a novel they are from recent history!

    27. Re:Riots by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, there is the UK, where CCTV surveillance is everywhere. Not the same country.

      There's a huge difference between being watched in public by CCTV and have your private online activities made from your home computer logged. You have an expectation of privacy when you're in the privacy of your home, and not when you're out in public. Whether you're seen by by your neighbor or the mailman or some CCTV cameras doesn't matter. You know you're out in public and there you have no expectation of privacy.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    28. Re:Riots by radio4fan · · Score: 2

      I expect you mean the ANPR cameras that check for valid tax and insurance. These are always accompanied by signs letting you know they're there, just like speed cameras.

      Firstly, they are not all accompanied by signs. Many trunk roads have fixed ANPR cameras which aren't marked. All the police's traffic cars (including unmarked cars) have ANPR cameras and don't have any signs. Even back in 2010 there were over 4000 ANPR cameras operating with absolutely no regulatory oversight.

      Secondly, the cameras are hardly just used to "check for valid tax and insurance". Some are operated by the Ministry of Defence, FFS. Every plate checked has its location, time (and in many cases a photo) stored on the ANPR database. This data is held 'routinely' for two years, but you can bet your bottom dollar it's held in perpetuity if you are a suspected 'person of interest'. If it was just for checking tax and insurance there would be no need to store data for anyone who was taxed and insured.

      Nor would there be stories like the one where an 84 year old peace protester with no criminal record is tugged because the ANPR database flags him as “of interest to public order unit Sussex”. The story goes on say that Sussex Police alone record over 1.2 million car positions a day.

      The 'tax and insurance' excuse is just like the terrorist/child pornographer excuse. If you disagree with widespread invasion of privacy by the state you must be untaxed or uninsured, right?

      Nothing happened; the press still use sensationalism and the people are still subject to about the same level of surveillance as in most other First World countries.

      How would you know? Under the RIP Act, the authorities can monitor any and all private communications without a warrant from a judge (merely with permission from -- for example -- "any customs officer designated for the purposes by the Commissioners of Revenue and Customs"), and no figures on how many people have been affected are available.

    29. Re:Riots by jez9999 · · Score: 2

      There is some hope. There was a bit on the radio today about a company offering free wifi in London, and when they interviewed a few potential users all of them asked what the company was getting out of it and what personal data they wanted. A couple mentioned spying on users too. It seems that a lot of young people are at least aware of privacy issues.

      That would be Virgin Media snooping on people's web browsing on that Wifi. The funny thing about the UK is that people seem to have a problem with private companies snooping on them (ISPs, Google, etc.) and there is a lot of opposition to it, but when the government want to invade privacy, people don't mind. Why is this? My suspicion is that the BBC is the problem - they traditionally have a trust that the government "won't abuse its powers" and so their reporting on government intrustions of privacy is weak or nonexistent, but then I'm quite anti-BBC in general so many I'm overdoing that angle.

    30. Re:Riots by Dominic · · Score: 1

      Their civil liberties promises were just about as true as their 'no NHS reorganisation' ones.

      They lied to get elected, and they lied big - about pretty much everything. They don't care about the deficit at all, they only care about making the UK suit their ideology, i.e. neoliberal free markets with the government morally judging everyone and deciding who is 'worthy'. Same old Tories.

    31. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lots of Europe is far more concerned that they'll even be able to afford electricity next year, and still have a house and a computer to put inside it.

    32. Re:Riots by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      By cars, I expect you mean the ANPR cameras that check for valid tax and insurance. These are always accompanied by signs letting you know they're there, just like speed cameras.

      Even if you are right, and I don't know that you are: In what way does the existence of signs make it in any way OK? In case you've forgotten, in 2001, the state had lots of signs saying "Big Brother is watching you."

      If you have no tax or vehicle insurance in the UK and are driving on the roads then you are a criminal. Cut and dried.

      Everyone in the UK is required to display a valid UK tax disk in their windscreen. I don't really seem a big thing with automatically checking this via reading their numberplate.

      BTW, a great many police cars here now have this built in to the dash too so it bleeps very loudly and alerts the policeman driving to come and arrest you.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    33. Re:Riots by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Ha ha, the BBC has been accused of not trusting the government. The BBC's coverage has been fairly balanced IMHO, they certainly present both sides of the argument.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    34. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I don't really seem a big thing with automatically checking this via reading their numberplate.

      Because it's use doesn't stop with tax and insurance. People are now getting arrested for their beliefs. e.g. the people arrested in the days before the royal wedding on the basis that they were republicans and were thought likely to demonstrate.

      Don't sleep walk into a fascist state.

    35. Re:Riots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the UK for you, the only thing that would cause riots in the street is if they banned football, or got rid of their monarchy.

    36. Re:Riots by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      I don't really seem a big thing with automatically checking this via reading their numberplate.

      Because it's use doesn't stop with tax and insurance. People are now getting arrested for their beliefs. e.g. the people arrested in the days before the royal wedding on the basis that they were republicans and were thought likely to demonstrate.

      Don't sleep walk into a fascist state.

      Are you on crack?

      What the fuck does a camera that automatically fines drivers for not paying road tax have to do with a police officer deciding to overstep the mark and arrest people for no reason?

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    37. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Read Nineteen Eighty-Four.

    38. Re:Riots by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      Read Nineteen Eighty-Four.

      I have, many times. That does not help me understand your very tangential connection between legitimate law enforcement and an over the top crack down protest.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    39. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      VNPR, CCTV, proposed internet monitoring, and just yesterday we find that the bill contains the power to routinely monitor postal and delivery services too.

      Do you need a diagram? Do you really think this is only about road tax and insurance? It's not.

    40. Re:Riots by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      VNPR, CCTV, proposed internet monitoring, and just yesterday we find that the bill contains the power to routinely monitor postal and delivery services too.

      Do you need a diagram? Do you really think this is only about road tax and insurance? It's not.

      But what has numberplate recognition got to do with it?

      They do not need any extra laws to fine motorists for not having road tax you fucking moron. The laws that let them do that have been on the books for years. The only difference is that now they can do it automatically. Or do you object to all new technologies that can help the police do their job even if it is a part of the job that desperately needs to be done in order for society to function?

      There is a very big leap between passing a new draconian law that fundamentally changes peoples right to privacy in their own home and streamlining the enforcement of existing laws using new technology. Once you step into a public place you have no absolute right to move in secrecy since if the police really wanted to they could just follow you. This has never needed a warrant.

      Who fucking cares anyway. I am tracked all the time by virtue of my oyster card and I could not care less. My journey are pretty fucking dull anyway: everyday I go to work, then at 6ish I come home. Then at the weekend I go out and go to the pub or the countryside occasionally. Believe it or not a great deal of us do not care if some file somewhere contains a record of our movements providing it is kept under lock and key and only the police have access to it. We don't care because we have nothing to hide.

      Earlier on in this ridiculous debate you mentioned people who wanted to disrupt the jubilee being arrested before they had a chance (most protest involves causing maximum disruption possible, not just waving a pointless placard that nobody cares about as that went out with the 60s). The vast majority of the british public actually support the idea of the police preventing disruption to old queenie's party, they just want the right to get on with live a make a few quid to keep a roof over their head. By the way I am about as far from a royalist as possible, but I had no interest in trying to spoil it for anyone else who is.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    41. Re:Riots by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You're coming across as a Sun reader. Which means your post has no intellectual interest, and plenty of vulgarity. Frankly its not worth a response.

    42. Re:Riots by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      You're coming across as a Sun reader. Which means your post has no intellectual interest, and plenty of vulgarity. Frankly its not worth a response.

      Guardian Reader actually, but that is not to say that every thing they print automatically appeals to me.

      I was also involved in the environmental protest movement for years so have first hand experience of the lack of respect for the law and for democracy that often exists in fringe movements. I saw too much criminal damage and people being victimised just because they chose a career that involved some level of experimentation on animals for medical research. The final straw though was being at an arms trade demo in London and seeing people cheering when they found out about 9-11 on the news in a pub.

      The fact is that there are plenty of extremists who believe that their cause trumps peoples democratic rights for some reason, the police often have a very hard time dealing with this. That is not to say we need more laws to help them but I see no reason for them not to use existing laws to make sure these nutters can not hurt people or prevent other perfectly lawful activity.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
  14. Deluge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Best way to defeat something like this would be to generate as much traffic as possible, max out your internet plan each and every month. If they can't store all the information then they can't mine that information.

    Have a program that just clicks random links on your computer 24/7. Send emails that contain as much information that you can cram in there from wikipedia. Set-up chat bots to talk to each other. There has gotta be tons of way of generating useless crap information such as those and more.

    Have fun!

    1. Re:Deluge by turgid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Send emails that contain as much information that you can cram in there from wikipedia.

      No, use high-entropy random numbers ... much harder to compress/deduplicate :-)

      Make sure you invest in all the storage companies first.

    2. Re:Deluge by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Random bits are best. Be sure to choose a good balance so they have to record LOTS of different URLs and e-mail addresses.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  15. I can hear friends already by cpu6502 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "If you have nothing to hide, then why complain?" - That's what they said when I told them I refused to open my car for the police. They'll probably say the same when I say the police should not be recording our websurfing.

       

    --
    My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    1. Re:I can hear friends already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps your "friends" aren't what they seem; have you recently moved to suburban Connecticut?

    2. Re:I can hear friends already by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      "If you have nothing to hide, then why complain?" - That's what they said when I told them I refused to open my car for the police. They'll probably say the same when I say the police should not be recording our websurfing.

      For people who refuse to understand principles, sometimes making it personal will work.
      Stick a keylogger on their computer and, after a week, tell them what you've done.
      "If you have nothing to hide, then why complain?"

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:I can hear friends already by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      "If you have nothing to hide, then why complain?" - That's what they said when I told them I refused to open my car for the police. They'll probably say the same when I say the police should not be recording our websurfing.

      And they'll probably say the same thing when the police insist on a camera in their bedroom to monitor them and their girl/boyfriend having sex. Got to make sure a child isn't involved, after all.

    4. Re:I can hear friends already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have the wrong freinds.

      People with nothing to hide? Let me put it this way: I'd hate to be seated next to one at a dinner party. The tedium and rigidity would be toxic.

    5. Re:I can hear friends already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My wife wanted to take a picture of the (very fantastic) new adventure playground in our local park so she could show off to her friends with kids. The old playground was very popular, so beating it was going to be tough, but the local council really did a good job. Sadly, my wife refrained from taking any pictures for fear of being thought of a s a paedophile.

      Obviously, I told her to go right back there, take all the photos she wants. If anyone (police included) asks, simply reply "I'm sorry, I don't think that's any of your business" and move on.

      My friends also will say "if you've got nothing to hide...", and I've had the argument many times with them. They just don't get it, and I'm unable to convince them. It's just how it is, I guess.

  16. 1984 by denis-The-menace · · Score: 4, Interesting

    *The* authoritative guide to oppress and subdue your population into submission and complacency.

    Warning: Void for the wealthy and/or connected.

     

    --
    Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
  17. Simple solution, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm sure many people are thinking about Tor as a way to solve this issue, but I think there is a much simple way to solve it.

    Think about this anecdote: kids are on a school trip (at least, that's how I remember it). Their professors don't want them to leave their rooms during the night, so they put small pieces of tape on the door of the kids' rooms. This way, they think it'll be easy to spot the rooms whose door has been opened, the next morning. One night, some clever kids get out of their room and, to cover up their tracks, instead of attempting to repair the tape on their own door, open everybody else's door.

    Foor for thought...

    1. Re:Simple solution, really... by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 2

      Think about this anecdote: kids are on a school trip (at least, that's how I remember it). Their professors don't want them to leave their rooms during the night, so they put small pieces of tape on the door of the kids' rooms. This way, they think it'll be easy to spot the rooms whose door has been opened, the next morning. One night, some clever kids get out of their room and, to cover up their tracks, instead of attempting to repair the tape on their own door, open everybody else's door.

      As a metaphor for a person in power so busy looking for threats internally (students leaving rooms) that they leave themselves wide open to external threats (all the bedroom doors are unlocked for easy access to sleeping children), it's great.

    2. Re:Simple solution, really... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I meant it more in a 'plausible deniability' way. If everyone drowns their actions in randomly-generated traffic, it becomes 1- hard to keep track of everything everyone does (as others have noted), and 2- gives you the opportunity to say that you didn't do it, whatever 'it' is.

    3. Re:Simple solution, really... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Yes via http://cs.nyu.edu/trackmenot/
      Browsers all over the UK doing randomised search-queries to popular search engines every few mins.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  18. Just use SSL to circumvent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since the bill requires ISPs to collect the information, just use HTTPS. At best, they can determine what IP you have connected to.

  19. And people always trash the USA for eroding civil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And people always trash the USA for eroding civil liberties.

  20. Solution by Sparticus789 · · Score: 2

    cat /dev/urandom >> file1.txt >> curl http://some.british.web.site/

    --
    sudo make me a sandwich
    1. Re:Solution by ArsonSmith · · Score: 2

      does firefox still have that testing plugin from the mozilla beta days that would randomly start loading websites? Maybe just have that run 24x7.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    2. Re:Solution by Skapare · · Score: 1

      That command does not seem to work very well. All I ended up with is a giant file called "curl" with a ton of garbage in it.

      I think the real solution is the wide spread use of encryption.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  21. Mixed feelings ... by MacTO · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I definitely don't like the idea of my online activities being monitored since I value my privacy very highly.

    On the other hand, governments are in a bit of a bind. They are responsible for enforcing the law and creating an effective justice system. This is incredibly difficult for them to do given the scope of activities that can (and do) take place online. After all, you can't exactly place a police officer on a beat to keep the peace without having some sort of electronic monitoring. Likewise, you cannot collect evidence to prove innocence or guilt without maintaining some sort of record of electronic transactions.

    I don't know where the solutions to these problems lay. That being said, I would suggest that those of us who oppose electronic surveilence start thinking about solutions to this problem. After all, governments need a way to do their job, and simply opposing legislation like this doesn't exactly help them do their job.

    1. Re:Mixed feelings ... by cpu6502 · · Score: 1

      Same way they do it now: Put a police officer on "the beat" and watching for illegal activity like stealking credit numbers, or adults trying to seduce children. OF COURSE the more-likely outcome is 100% recording of everything we do, followed by some Mussolini type leader using the info to "disappear" his online enemies. (Or less onerous, government forcing newssites to publish gov't propaganda & erasing anti-government posts/replies.)

      --
      My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
    2. Re:Mixed feelings ... by rogueippacket · · Score: 1

      So long as the governments of the world continue to work in a bubble of their closest supporters, cranking out bills like this without actually consulting the people (or even panels of industry experts), we're going to shoot down every goddamn one and make their lives as miserable as possible until they understand we, the citizens who elected them, need to be a part of this process. Or put simply, they've never asked for our input on a solution. That's not how it works where I live, at least. Maybe one day that will change, but until then, we have no choice but to show them how asinine their ideas are. Usually by throwing their asses out to the curb and electing someone smarter.

    3. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, governments are in a bit of a bind. They are responsible for enforcing the law and creating an effective justice system. This is incredibly difficult for them to do given the scope of activities that can (and do) take place online.

      Replace "online" with "indoors", "by phone", or "by mail." For years they've kept law & order pretty well, all the while getting specific warrants when it's deemed necessary to record a private conversation or monitor private correspondence. For me, this same expectation of privacy in my non-public affairs includes what I do online, until such time as I give them reason to suspect me of a specific crime. (Unless I'm doing it on a big screen in public.)

    4. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Talonius · · Score: 1

      I don't see how having access to everything done by everyone in a nation will help them. Information overload. If they're using it to fight crime, the crime has to occur first. And the potential privacy implications of such a database as well as the identity theft/blackmail potential is simply unreasonable as a counterweight to the gains.

      --
      My reality check bounced.
    5. Re:Mixed feelings ... by cheekyjohnson · · Score: 1

      They are responsible for enforcing the law and creating an effective justice system.

      Not when their solutions violate people's privacy or rights.

      --
      Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
    6. Re:Mixed feelings ... by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      fter all, governments need a way to do their job, and simply opposing legislation like this doesn't exactly help them do their job.

      Actually, it does. In the old days, when you wanted to know what someone was up to, you used something called an "eyeball" to watch them. Governments are lazy -- they want dragnets, they want all electronic data available for inspection for any reason, without a warrant. They want retroactive immunity for torturing and murdering civilians. But arguments that they can't do their job here are bullshit: I can put a video camera that watches your screen and keyboard and know what you're up to online, and those cost $15 at the computer store. If I want to know where you're driving off to, I don't need to install black boxes in every car... I just need to crawl under yours and attach a tracking device.

      Law enforcement shouldn't be monitoring people's private communications or lives without a warrant, without cause, etc., child molesters, terrorists, and googly-eyed boogie men be damned. Just bending over and taking it like this hurts homeland security because it costs a lot of money for a minimal return on investment, it turns everyone into a spy for everyone else, and it winds up stifling the entire culture... if people are afraid to speak their mind, they're also afraid to innovate. If they're afraid to stand out in a crowd because of surveillance, then everyone becomes the same. The very essence of democracy is destroyed then -- there's no point in keeping who you voted for private if your internet searches are available to the government. They know who you voted for based on what you looked for online. There's no point in asking for warrants then, because they already have all the evidence sitting on a server somewhere... they can round up anyone at will because the laws are so complex, so dense, that nobody can avoid breaking at least one. And when you have such fine-grained knowledge on a person's daily life and activities, it means that you can arbitrarily point to someone and say "That one. Make them disappear," and find a legal justification for it.

      Democracy cannot survive under such a system. It's simply not a democracy at that point in anything but name. If you people in Europe allow this to pass, whatever you are after this won't be a democracy... it'll be something else, something darker and not unlike what is happened to my country, the United States. We are a democracy in name only. Make this law, and you join us.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    7. Re:Mixed feelings ... by MacTO · · Score: 1

      There are two issues with warrants:

      1) Unless a portion of the crime takes place in the physical world, it is very difficult to gather the evidence required to obtain a warrant. In those cases some form of electronic monitoring would be required in order to obtain that evidence. At the very least you need to know that computer A connected to computer B. Those records should be external to computer A and computer B since neither party is likely to maintain logs or, if they do maintain logs, they are possible to tamper with.

      2) Many of the people who oppose electronic monitoring also oppose ISPs divulging which IP address is associated with which user. Sometimes that is for legitimate reasons, such as multiple users can share an IP address. The only way the police may be able to establish the identity of a user, in order to obtain a warrant, is to use some sort of monitoring in the first place.

      There may be ways to get around these problems: e.g. establish that illegal activities are being conducted with computer A, get a warrant to monitor connections to computer A, then use that warrant to obtain a further warrant for computer B. Yet even there you run into a hitch. If computer A is in another nation you won't be able to monitor all of the connections to that computer in your own nation because you won't be able to monitor it at computer A's ISP.

      Simply put, it is too easy to hide criminal activities online.

    8. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Hatta · · Score: 2

      I don't know where the solutions to these problems lay.

      I do. Warrants. If you need data, get yourself probable cause and present it to a judge. If you don't have probable cause, fuck off and die. If you have probable cause, you'll get your warrant, and you can record the data you had probable cause to believe would provide evidence for a crime.

      How is this difficult in any way? I mean, let's apply your logic to other times when a warrant would be required:

      They are responsible for enforcing the law and creating an effective justice system. This is incredibly difficult for them to do given the scope of activities that can (and do) take place in the home. After all, you can't exactly place a police officer on a beat to keep the peace without having some sort of domestic monitoring. Likewise, you cannot collect evidence to prove innocence or guilt without maintaining some sort of record of domestic activity.

      Does it make more sense to you now just how wrongheaded your post was?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Pepebuho · · Score: 1

      Are you naive?
      Regarding your second argument, "need for evidence", It is collected AFTER a crime has been convicted AND someone is a SUSPECT. It has never been our western tradition to go and treat the innocent like guilty. That is why you have forensic sciences and such to gather evidence, and believe me, there is nothing as resilient as a disk drive. You would have to melt down your drive for someone not to be able to read it. That's why police are making their job HARDER, not easier with such laws. Now it will be more prevalent the use of encrypted drives and VPNs out of the country, raising the bar for snooping around.

      The argument that it is necessary to MONITOR 24/7 in order to enforce the laws is patently false and absurd.

    10. Re:Mixed feelings ... by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      What legitimate crimes are these targeting though? Online crime like spam, fraud, and theft are not solved by looking at your facebook activity. The point of the surveillance is to detect ideological crime.

    11. Re:Mixed feelings ... by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      Unless a portion of the crime takes place in the physical world, it is very difficult to gather the evidence required to obtain a warrant.

      If no part of the "crime" takes place in the physical world, then perhaps the problem is with your definition of "crime" rather than the absence of built-in back doors into people's private communications.

      Whatever the content, communication per se is not a legitimate crime. There are no cases where fighting crime requires the ability to listen in on others' conversations.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    12. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No they aren't.

      They don't need to monitor the internet to catch rapists and child molesters. They come across the material, they use that to identify the people in it if able, if not, sorry but the loss of freedom and liberty isn't worth the life of a few, even myself. Especially when the loss of it would not save the child or would only marginally increase the chance of catching the guys who did it.

      They need to stop piracy? Sorry, won't happen. Never, it existed long before the internet and will long after it is replaced. And the problems the content industry has has nothing to do with piracy and everything to do with its own quality and practices. I personally quit watching TV 2 years ago and do not miss it except I watch Supernatural online every so often.

      Ordering goods online with stolen cards? They already have ways to stop that at the physical location. Hint: If they live in California and the purchase is sent to Maine, that might be a red flag right there.

      They already have access to all they need without monitoring and if they honestly need to monitor, get a warrant and watch what they are doing from that point on. Not store everything for 5 years so you can look over it if they piss you off for something to bust them for or smear their name in the public eye.

      God, the more I read stuff like this, the more I am tempted to install Tor on my PC and get all my family and friends to do the same since they always want to leave their PC on anyways.

      Sorry but the saying may be "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear" but they got it backwards. It should be "If you have nothing to fear, then you have nothing to hide". So long as person, group, or organization has power over you, you will always have reason to hide information and fear for your freedom. The moment you lose your privacy, you lose the ability to protect yourself from tyranny.

    13. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It was terribly dangerous to let your thoughts wander when you were in any public place or within range of a telescreen. The smallest thing could give you away. A nervous tic, an unconscious look of anxiety, a habit of muttering to yourself--anything that carried with it the suggestion of abnormality, of having something to hide. In any case, to wear an improper expression on your face...; was itself a punishable offense. There was even a word for it in Newspeak: facecrime..."
      - George Orwell, 1984

    14. Re:Mixed feelings ... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      These days you don't need physical goods. Data will do just fine.

    15. Re:Mixed feelings ... by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      "They are responsible for enforcing the law and creating an effective justice system"
      Firstly accept risk: supervise you kids and accept that it is not impossible for you be killed by a madman. Perhaps the individual should take some responsibility for their own protection and entrust less of it to the warm bosom of the government.
      Secondly accept that if you decide to give a government huge amounts of powerful you must also watch to see that they do not misuse their power. If they ever did misuse their power, have you already given them so much that you are unable to do anything about it?

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    16. Re:Mixed feelings ... by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Most people are politically apathetic. Half of those who aren't politically apathetic aren't willing to think very hard and become anti-intellectual populists (tea party et al) and the half that are willing to think find that most of the apathetic population don't understand them (the other half can't be bothered to understand them) as they haven't been paying close attention to the potentially complex political ideas. What can be done? People say that they're not apathetic: they get angry and demand lower taxes, but how many can truthfully claim to be involved? How many understand why it's hard to provide lower taxes? How many genuinely understand that some economic suffering, say, might be completely unavoidable? How many understand that the government isn't the source of all good?

      Result:
      Majority of Population: "Down with pedos! Down with terrorists! Down with risk!"
      Government: "Time to monitor your internet"

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    17. Re:Mixed feelings ... by lgw · · Score: 1

      Not quite true - stolen CC numbers are a big deal these days, and those can in turn be abused without physical goods being delivered. Similarly, identity theft can lead to normal theft, and those numbers in my bank account - those are important numbers.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    18. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry
      What makes you think Governments are interested in democracy ?
      Governments are interested in power.
      Democracy is the carrot dangled on a stick in front of the unwashed (M)asses, an illusion to give a veneer of respectability to the ongoing and increasing corruption that we know as government.

    19. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know where the solutions to these problems lay. That being said, I would suggest that those of us who oppose electronic surveilence start thinking about solutions to this problem. After all, governments need a way to do their job, and simply opposing legislation like this doesn't exactly help them do their job.

      You're a troll.

      Here's a solution. Using the internet is communication .. how about we make "Freedom of speech" an inalienable human right, then nothing that happens on-line could be considered illegal?

      Boy oh boy, that would certainly solve the government 'problem' wouldn't it?

    20. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solution: go to a judge and get a warrant, then you can monitor. Wholesale surveillance is something else entirely and shows that you deem yourself master when in fact you are the servant.

      Solution 2: Old-fashioned police work (i.e. undercover agents)

    21. Re:Mixed feelings ... by Ed_1024 · · Score: 1

      I think the problem these days is that governments are attempting to legitimise stuff that they have always done but has dubious (or no) legality.

      We need an arm of government that can operate outside the law on occasions to deal with those who have no respect for it at all, like terrorists bent on mass murder. What we don't need is the laws changed to make what should be clandestine activities perfectly OK and normal. This paves the way for the 2am knock on the door.

      I'm sort of alright with GCHQ or the NSA tapping in to everything as the results are unlikely to make it outside of secure environments. There are also still enough civil rights left in most democracies that you can make a very public fuss if you think you have been wronged. What I don't want is things like this made legal and contracted out to the lowest bidder, who keeps unencrypted databases on malware-infected networks and employs minimum wage keyboard operatives who make a bit on the side selling bank/credit card/personal details to the mafia.

    22. Re:Mixed feelings ... by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      until they understand we, the citizens who elected them, need to be a part of this process

      We, the citizens, didn't even vote for a slightly better electoral system (AV). Why would we bother to be part of consultation processes? (disclaimer: I'm one of the 1/3 who voted Yes.)

  22. Idiots by benjfowler · · Score: 2

    Goes to show what a bunch of idiot reactionaries the people running the show in Westminster are.

    Are they going to show us any evidence that such a drastic and draconian law is required? Where is the evidence that this is needed?

    It's all down to the idiotic, blind ideology that we've come to expect from the halfwits in power.

    Somehow, I'm hoping that these people ARE actually smarter than they appear, and are simply putting this forward to distract the media from something more reactionary and ideologically-driven they're doing elsewhere.

    And if you think this is bad, you should see the hysterical "OMG somebody think of the children" crap coming from the Tory back bench, e.g. Nadine Dorries.

    1. Re:Idiots by Talonius · · Score: 1

      See the "people are too stupid to run a democracy" study published a few months back.

      Really, here in the US, there's no benefit to doing the right thing - or anything. You'll get lambasted from both sides no matter what choice you make. Objective political reporting is dead, if it ever existed. Satisfying the donors and behind the scenes manipulators is about the only approval you can expect.

      And that's our (the voting public's) fault. We have become unwilling to compromise and negotiate and instead we prefer highly publicized stand offs over minute issues while our paid taxes slowly swirl down the drain.

      --
      My reality check bounced.
    2. Re:Idiots by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      And that's our (the voting public's) fault. We have become unwilling to compromise and negotiate and instead we prefer highly publicized stand offs over minute issues while our paid taxes slowly swirl down the drain.

      Uh, no. The problem is far too much compromise.

      The Bad Guys view compromise as weakness and after they've convinced the Good Guys to compromise away part of their freedom, they come back in a year or two demanding more. Then repeat until it's all gone.

      Only a total no-compromise attitude can prevent that, and the Good Guys are too good to do that. This nonsense will only stop when the majority are willing to say 'No More' and mean it.

  23. How do they record your secure web activities? by Skapare · · Score: 1

    How do they record your secure web activities? Seems the only thing they can know from it is where your HTTPS requests are going to. And what about the VPN set up to friends in free countries like Norway and Sweden?

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:How do they record your secure web activities? by Spad · · Score: 1

      Nationwide MITM attack.

  24. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  25. Could backfire by JonathanCombe · · Score: 1

    I think Governments need to be very very careful about going down this route. Should this go ahead I expect any ciminals to encrypt all their network traffic via a VPN or proxy as well as measrues such as sending emails encryped via PGP. This is next to impossible to break so the government will lost the ability to see what users are doing on line anyway - all they can see is nothing other than an encyrpted connection to a VPN whose data they cannot snoop. If the VPN is located outside the UK then there will be no obligation to store sites that user has visited.

    If I want to communicate with others privately I can set up a basic web server (perhaps via something like Raspberry Pi) running web forum software over an https connection with a self-generated certificate over a broadband connection and grant accounts only to those who I want to communicate via the site. All the government sees is encrypted data going to this address.

    In addition IP address do NOT identify an individual. Many people can and do share a single internet IP address. Wi-FI can be cracked so an innocent users connection may be being abused without their knowledge. Then there are things like public WiFi. Or just by a mobile broadband USB stick with cash and then the connection cannot be traced back to an individual anyway. Sure the mobile operator would know the rough location it's being used via the base station it's on but not the individual property (especially with blocks of flats).

    1. Re:Could backfire by Skapare · · Score: 1

      As more and more non-criminal people are forced to use more and more encryption, this will just make more and easier choices available, even for the criminals. But the government may also try to make all use of encryption illegal, too, thus turning everyone into a criminal.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Could backfire by Hatta · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I think Governments need to be very very careful about going down this route. Should this go ahead I expect any ciminals to encrypt all their network traffic via a VPN or proxy as well as measrues such as sending emails encryped via PGP.

      That's easy. It's already a crime in the UK to refuse to hand over encryption keys. They don't even have to prove that you have the encryption keys, or that the allegedly encrypted data is actually encrypted.

      Before long mere use of encryption, or even possession of random data that could be mistaken for encrypted data will be illegal in the UK.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Could backfire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Use encryption that allows multiple streams in the encrypted output, with no *requirement* for multiple streams, and no limit to the number of streams. Different keys decrypt different streams. One stream contains something legal, but embarrassing (perhaps kinky porno between consenting adults). One stream contains your thought-crimes under the nom de guerre of "Guy Fawkes II" When you're forced to hand over the key, hand over the key for the encrypted porno. As long as there's no way to prove the encrypted data contains multiple stream (and thus has multiple keys), there's no way to prove you aren't fully cooperating with the benevolent agents of the state.

    4. Re:Could backfire by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      In the UK, it's already illegal not to disclose encryption keys on request. Being senile or having internet induced ADHD isn't a defense either.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    5. Re:Could backfire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the government may also try to make all use of encryption illegal, too, thus turning everyone into a criminal.

      And kill all kinds of web shops and net banks.

    6. Re:Could backfire by xenobyte · · Score: 1

      In the UK, it's already illegal not to disclose encryption keys on request. Being senile or having internet induced ADHD isn't a defense either.

      Which means that it is now illegal to protect your information if you have a crappy memory (for whatever reason). It follows directly from the obligation to disclose; if you cannot be sure to remember the keys/passwords, you're knowingly attempting to break this law, and that has to be a crime in itself.

      Amazing really - a civilized country has actually made it a crime to have a bad memory, because it is also a crime not to protect sensitive information.

      --
      "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    7. Re:Could backfire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They don't even have to prove that you have the encryption keys, or that the allegedly encrypted data is actually encrypted.

      I think you made this bit up. AFAIK the only cases that have come to court so far have been where there is no dispute over the fact that the data was encrypted, and that the accused had refused to hand over the keys.
      No-one has actually come to court yet saying 'RIPA does not apply since there is no encrypted data'.

  26. Are we crazy or idiots? by Tei · · Score: 1

    Communications are private. This is one of the bases of democracy. If you lose that, and you spy on the citizens, then you are already inside the dictatorship style of society. You CAN'T do that, not even to stop a nuclear explosion to destroy a city or something massive like that. Is one of the pilars of our society, and the other options are worse. Plus, we choose to live in democracy, is our choose, nobody should overrule that and force a dictatorship on everyone.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

  27. Catch 22 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The RIAA is pushing people onto VPNs, and guess what demographic will not be able to be monitored even after this IMP law comes into effect, *hint* it won't be just the criminals and pedos.

  28. Not content by Geeky · · Score: 1

    From the first few pages of the document, they are talking about communication data but not content - i.e. source, destination, perhaps size. Stuff ISPs probably log but might not store. It is explicitly excluding content

    It's still not great, but to take a telephone analogy it's like the itemised billing stats, not recording all the calls. Or a physical example - getting the post office to record the address written on the envelope, but not open it and read the contents.

    From the actual document itself: "Nothing in these proposals will authorise the interception of the content of a communication. Nor will it require the collection of all internet data, which would be neither feasible, necessary nor proportionate."

    It will still give ISPs an excuse to increase their prices, but I don't think it's quite time to break out the tin foil hats...

    --
    Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    1. Re:Not content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It shouldnt effect ISP pricing, the government stated it will foot the bill.

    2. Re:Not content by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Two problems: (i) feature creep (ii) Traffic analysis is a well developed field and logs can be easily data-mined.
      Once you have access to the logs, you're eventually going to start storing them. Maybe not now, but how about in 10 years? Sooner or later, another attack will occur and, of course, existing powers will be deemed insufficient. Next step: store the logs, combine them with other existing databases and start to data-mine them. Given that the hardware and legislation are in place, this will be an almost trivial step.
      Then you'll have a algorithm performing automated traffic analysis: who connects to who? Is the other person vaguely suspicious? Are they communicating in a suspicious way? Perhaps deep packet inspection will also be used and keyword scanning will be used (as it is in the USA). There's a large immigrant population in the UK. How many of those who have been born into the UK and raised in its culture are going to produce false leads based on routinely examining their communications data and then having the algorithm worry when it notices that their last name sounds foreign? Computers are dumb but people are always happy to put their faith in a black box. How many will be wrongly interrogated? How many will have undue suspicion placed upon them? Maybe the system flags suspects with a 1% false positive rate. There are 1.2 million people of Pakistani origin living in the UK so potentially you have 12 000 false suspects. That's a lot of people to investigate and a lot of people who will potentially experience a major disruption to their life.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
  29. Use Logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Haven't you ever dream of a opensource freeware just for a case like this?

    It'd be as simple as ping each second to a random webpage (which count as "online activity").

    Now, image that software installed in all computers... and the huge servers that the Big Fucking Spy would need to manage/store/check such info.

    1. Re:Use Logic by pbjones · · Score: 1

      and watch the internet fall into a hole with 1,000,000% more un-nessasary traffic.

      --
      There was an unknown error in the submission.
  30. Want to make a difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't like this law? sign the petition: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32400

    1. Re:Want to make a difference? by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

      Don't like law, did sign it, also know that it won't make a jot of difference. As a cynic, I'm fairly sure that e-petitions are merely designed as a kind of theater in which a disaffected citizen is made to feel as if their government actually listens to them.

      --
      Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
    2. Re:Want to make a difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still worth a try, even if it is an exercise in futility. Since the libcon coalition pledged to end the surveillance society, the real answer is to make pre-government manifestos legally binding.

  31. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  32. Oh timothy, this again? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 4, Interesting

    More UK-bashing from timothy again, I see.

    It's not "from now on". The proposal has been published. It is not a law, and is unlikely to ever become one.

    Do you hate us because we're free, timothy? Is that what it is?

    1. Re:Oh timothy, this again? by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      It's not "from now on". The proposal has been published. It is not a law, and is unlikely to ever become one.

      Do you hate us because we're free, timothy? Is that what it is?

      Oh I don't know about that. My mother having lived under the STASI and been a part of the underground in her teenager years, I'm quite sure that they would have been rubbing their hands in glee over such a proposed law. This is a statists wet dream, and goes beyond a pure fantasy in terms of what would be considered an invasion of privacy.

      Besides, the UK isn't free. And the veneer is wearing thin in many places. Otherwise, you wouldn't see Brits fleeing to places like Canada or Australia in such large numbers.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Oh timothy, this again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The proposal has been published. It is not a law, and is unlikely to ever become one.

      Eh?, the fsckers in opposition tied to implement similar measures when they were running the show, this bill will become law, too many vested interests want it to be so (police, security services, entertainments industry)

      Consider,
      both main ISPs in the UK are already planning for this, or have already implemented the basic mechanisms for doing so but in a (currently) fairly detectable manner.

      If you traceroute/tcptraceroute any site the IWF deem 'contentious' their current monitoring shows up if you know what to look for, alas, as that list of sites of interest isn't published, you have no idea if you've become their newest and bestest friend/POI by visiting somewhere they're monitoring (e.g. badongo used to be, currently isn't, 4chan wasn't, currently is)..so, the technology for doing this has already been trialled and is in place under the old 'blah blah think of the children blah blah' trojan horse, we're now at the expansion phase (e.g. one ISP using the IWF monitor to implement the Pirate Bay ban).

      The biggest problem 'They' have is volume of traffic, my broadband connection averages 46GB of total traffic per month (averaged over last 11 full months, most of that being Xbox related), a quick and dirty calculation based on one hours sampling of broadband interface traffic gives a best guestimate of 7.4GB of that 46GB being the header information 'They' claim they'll be logging. My ISP has something like 4 million users of its broadband service, if this was an average figure, they'd require 28 petabytes of storage per month for just this header information alone. Keyword/content triggering/monitoring is what we'll get, the whole thing is like a Stazi wet dream.

  33. UK by Dunge · · Score: 0

    You were cool man, how did you end up like this?

  34. And in other news by rossdee · · Score: 1

    hard drive prices expected to rise as demand grows

  35. Thoughtful paper on why privacy is important by dalosla · · Score: 3, Informative

    A paper on privacy and why "monitoring is no problem because only criminals have something to hide" is a poor justification. If you compare the benefits of monitoring for the good of society against the usually slight or non-existant damage to an individual from being monitored, society always wins out. However, privacy is not just monitoring. What affect does it have on society when everyone is aware that there are large databases of information about your life and people will use to make decisions about you, but you can't know what is in it, you have no means of making sure it is correct, and you don't know who is using it and for what purposes? There is much more to it than this, and the paper is worth reading for a deeper view on privacy issues.

    1. Re:Thoughtful paper on why privacy is important by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Or, just have everyone start running Open TOR servers. It may be coming from your house, but there's no telling who actually did what.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  36. Cost by Geeky · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'd like to see their working on the financial figures. According to the document the Bill "is estimated to lead to an increase in public expenditure of up to £1.8 billion over 10 years from 2011/12. Benefits from this investment are estimated to be £5 – 6.2 billion over the same period."

    Exactly what financial benefits? Where's the saving?

    Otherwise, the question we should all, in the UK, be asking our MPs is which hospitals are going to be closed to pay for this?

    --
    Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    1. Re:Cost by chicane · · Score: 1

      Purportedly a primary benefit is a reduction in crime or should that be the detection of crime! But given UK governments track record on cost reductions this seems unlikely to be realised.
      It's a case of another land grab for more monitoring powers after they failed last time round with a Labour administration.
      it should be interesting to see those who opposed whilst in opposition supporting it now they are in power.

  37. Daily Mail readers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I blame a Daily Mail lobotomy. The majority of it's very sizable reader base (who tend to wrongly self-identify as intelligent, educated and middle class) sing to the tune of, "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear", "only pedos are private" and "my government loves me and will protect me from harm".
    Seriously though, here are three articles from today's front-page:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159370/Soldier-childminder-farmer-paedophile-ring-hosted-depraved-sex-parties-isolated-country-farmhouse.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159207/Police-Community-Support-Worker-fostered-children-abused-teenage-boys-years.html
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2159317/Troubled-teenage-girls-given-cash-drink-cuddly-toys-exchange-sex-middle-aged-men.html
    Based on this, is it any surprise that a large proportion of the UK population seem to consider the three biggest threats to be immigrants/terrorists (few make the distinction), pedophiles and rising taxes? Very few of them seem to remember much history and ever fewer have any common sense...

  38. Random traffic and search generator? by KreAture · · Score: 1

    How much data do they really think they will need to store pr individual?
    What if we multiply that by 1000000?
    For every search you do on a search engine, a script could create a few thousand extra.
    For every website you visit, the crawler will visit a hundred.
    Encapsulating traffic in the wrong protocol may also be fun.

  39. Read the draft, more interesting than the article by pbjones · · Score: 1

    the draft bill excludes storage of content, so much of the paranoia is null and void. They won't be reading you emails etc. They will be storing the stuff that they could beat out of you anyway. Sorry, delete that, just the stuff that they could access via you call-records/phone-bill or the internet equivalent.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
  40. Re:Read the draft, more interesting than the artic by frostilicus2 · · Score: 1

    Two words: feature creep.

    --
    Nothing sucks like a Vax, nothing blows like a PowerMac G4
  41. TFA is a spam site by ferret4 · · Score: 1

    browsing on my Android phone, the maindevice.com site gave a javascript-style alert claiming I'm the 1st Android visitor and prize-winner or some such nonsense, giving me only an OK button - which redirected me to some awful probably malware-infested Android-specific website. Which also means I couldn't read TFA. Way to go guys.

  42. Big Gov't Ranters Quiet on These by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    The anti-gov't Tparty etc. are strangely mostly quiet about such issues in the US. It's kind of like the mass spending during Bush's time: other less important issues distract them to waste their froth, until the time that some event makes it The Most Important Thing Ever.

  43. encryption by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Ultimately this sort of thing will drive development of all sorts of encryption and identity concealment technologies.

    Probably it'll change internet culture where everything used to be open now everything will be concealed.

    The internet is growing up.

  44. Driving advancement by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    All this will do is help drive the advancement of technologies like TOR, Freenet, &c., which is a good thing.

    1. Re:Driving advancement by hotrodent · · Score: 1

      Also, how long until there are "plausible deniability" plugins for browsers that randomly browse the internet for you while you sleep? Increase the noise to signal ratio FTW!

    2. Re:Driving advancement by J'raxis · · Score: 1

      I've also heard of people running open wireless networks expressly for this purpose.

  45. Ultimately, I have no problem whatsoever with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But everyone's browsing history should be available to everybody at all times. It's the same as monitoring, if I can 'monitor' the hot babe down the road the same way the government can monitor what's growing in my back yard, it all seems fair. Every entity has it's interests, as long as we can all exercise our interests in a fair a reasonable way, then it's all good.

    The problem with this legislation is that the government gets to read your dirty laundry, but the government's dirty laundry is a 'state secret'. ie. they're trying to control your life and ensure that you measure up to their standards.

    To the government: I can be honest right now .. rarely does a day pass in my life that I don't break one of your laws. If you want to throw me in jail, knock yourself out. But just remember, if 80% of the population is in jail .. there won't be enough non-slave labor to feed your arses while you sit in those comfy leather parliamentary chairs discussing how to further enslave the populace.

  46. Interaction... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...it's fairly simple, IM, social networking, email, etc are another form of communication replacing face to face contact.

    The government would never in a million years ask to fit us all with digital recorders so they would have every moment of our life recorded, the conversations we've had, the books and magazines we are looking at, etc, I don't see how telling us they are going to record our online footprint and think it's justifiable.

    If the police believed I was selling drugs or dealing in stolen goods much of the time they would have to gather evidence by conducting surveillance (with a warrant), besides CCTV there's no visual or audio archive of my activities with other individuals for them to dip into whenever they want so why should there be a digital one, it would be unthinkable to propose the former, there would be an uprising.

    If they have reasonable suspicion that I am conducting illegal activities online, get a warrant for a month and wiretap my internet, phone, etc the way it has always been done in a democratic society.

    This bill is almost amusing, how about put 1.8 billion into policing which has always had problems with budgets and make the police actually do some investigating when they believe a crime has been committed. ...also having had dealing with the police I now know that they are not there to find the truth, simply add some more notches to their statistics, give them a database of everyone's communications and they will copy and paste anything which can be taken out of context to re-enforce their case, and we have all said and done things we aren't proud of, either intentionally or by accident. I doubt anyone can say they have never had a moment they weren't proud of, imagine every conversation you had on the street, in the pub, etc was recorded, you wouldn't be too happy to see of some of those conversations being played in court, they may not represent your true views on a subject, simply a moment of stupidity.

    I think this is a core issue in this matter, yet I never see it discussed.

    TL;DR They wouldn't ask to archive conversations in real life without a warrant, why should it extend to online, the facility for temporary wiretaps are essential to public security though, I'm not a privacy nut.

    I'm done with this government and this country, as soon as my circumstances permit, I'm off, I don't like staying where I'm not welcome or respected, even if I was born here.

  47. Not much different here by travbrad · · Score: 1

    Their ISPs record activity. The NSA records ours.

    I'm not sure either one is really better than the other.

  48. Honestly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...it's fairly simple, IM, social networking, email, etc are another form of communication replacing face to face contact.

    The government would never in a million years ask to fit us all with digital recorders so they would have every moment of our life recorded, the conversations we've had, the books and magazines we are looking at, etc, I don't see how telling us they are going to record our online footprint and think it's justifiable.
    If the police believed I was selling drugs or dealing in stolen goods much of the time they would have to gather evidence by conducting surveillance (with a warrant), besides CCTV there's no visual or audio archive of my activities with other individuals for them to dip into whenever they want so why should there be a digital one, it would be unthinkable to propose the former, there would be an uprising.

    If they have reasonable suspicion that I am conducting illegal activities online, get a warrant for a month and wiretap my internet, phone, etc the way it has always been done in a democratic society.

    This bill is almost amusing, how about put 1.8 billion into policing which has always had problems with budgets and make the police actually do some investigating when they believe a crime has been committed. ...also having had dealings with the police I now know that they are not there to find the truth, simply to add some more notches to their statistics, give them a database of everyone's communications and they will copy and paste anything which can be taken out of context to re-enforce their case, and we have all said and done things we aren't proud of, either intentionally or by accident. I doubt anyone can say they have never had a moment they weren't proud of, imagine every conversation you had on the street, in the pub, etc was recorded, you wouldn't be too happy to see of some of those conversations being played in court, they may not represent your true views on a subject, simply a moment of stupidity.

    I think this is a core issue in this matter, yet I never see it discussed.

    TL;DR They wouldn't ask to archive conversations in real life without a warrant, why should it extend to online, the facility for temporary wiretaps are essential to public security though, I'm not a privacy nut.

    I'm done with this government and this country, as soon as my circumstances permit, I'm off, I don't like staying where I'm not welcome or respected, even if I was born here.

  49. kick out Theresa May / News International by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Realize that she's saying "everyone is a pedo, so we need to record your surfing to obtain the proof". The surveillance comes BEFORE the warrant, the ISP is simply the agent employed to do that surveillance on justification that your a terrorist pedo.

    Tor isn't the answer because Tor will flag you for a search/arrest.

    The answer is to eject Theresa May from power. She has the same defects as the labour equivalent, Jacqui Smith, had. You know how some/most people seek an authority figure to give them a lead. Both Jacqui Smith and Theresa May have that. You'll see them view the Chief Constables as the authority figure to be obeyed. Which is the flip of the reality, she's supposed to keep them in check, not they demand she writes laws for them, and she complies.

    So instead of leading the police, the police lead them.

    Part of it is self interest, when they wanted to reduce ASBOs the police campaigned against them, and Labour joined in on the attacks. When they wanted to remove the police vetting powers, their police PR people were out on TV saying removing their vetting powers would result in the deaths of many children from pedos. Again the opposition party joined in.

    Really you don't want the police to campaign against you, because when they're interview on TV, the interviewers are fearful of them, they let them tell outright lies without challenge. So they have a debating advantage, and people are misled. So if you don't give the police what they want, then you will be out of power soon enough.

    It's really spiralling the UK into a police state. I bet every male MP has seen a bestial pic or similar extreme porn, this is a crime in the UK, it can put you on the sex offenders register and prevent you getting a job for life in many professions. So the police will have a very strong lever against MPs if they get to snoop on internet traffic just from that alone.

    Can you imagine emails between MPs visible to the police/security, internal communications between cabinet members and their families.

    I'd also like to remind you of Murdochs, News International, where the head of the paper admitted to buying info from the police. The police also had a very cosy relationship with Murdoch, hiring ex News International PR people as PR (even while they were still on the Murdoch payroll), lending a horse to the head of News International, turning a blind eye to previous phone hacking accusations.

  50. Murdoch's already pays ISP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well Murdoch already probably has them, given his newspapers habit of hacking phones, its difficult to imagine he hasn't already paid ISPs to snoop on MPs' Internet surfing and communications.

    Just because he hasn't got caught yet, doesn't mean he doesn't do it.

    Really this just makes it easier, this way the ISP can pretend to be recording all the data "just in case they're a pedo/terrorist" instead of "for Murdoch's Sun Newspaper".

    We could pretend that we're conspiracy theorists and Murdoch doesn't really do that, but News International already admitted to paying police for information, so its a pretty sure bet he does.

  51. TrackMeNot and BetterPrivacy by Hyperhaplo · · Score: 1

    You mean https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/trackmenot/

    "Protects privacy in web-search. By issuing randomized queries to popular search-engines, including Google, Bing, and Baidu, TrackMeNot obfuscates users' search data profiles"

    If everyone used this we all would have a lot less to worry about it.

    Even better, have two instances of web browser installed on your PC: FF installed locally with your usual configuration and trackmenot .. and FF Portable run from a mounted encrypted drive share .. so if the computer is taken or powered off they can't get anything and the 'local' install looks like your 'normal' web activities

    Also install https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/betterprivacy/ to delete flash cookies

    --
    You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
    1. Re:TrackMeNot and BetterPrivacy by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      that's not the one I was thinking of, but would help. I don't think it was an actual add-on, but part of the Mozilla beta builds. It would just start loading random pages for something like 10 seconds then go to another random page and load it for 10 trying to induce a crash or memory leak that would then send debug info.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    2. Re:TrackMeNot and BetterPrivacy by Hyperhaplo · · Score: 1

      I haven't heard of that one. post a link if you find it..

      TrackMeNot is configurable to read in keywords from set sites and launch x searches per hour. Most excellent for cases where there is a concern about your online activities being monitored.

      I started looking into an auto-web-crawler. My idea was that it starts from a google search from a random dictionary word, builds a list of sites, and randomly visits a site every x minutes. It keeps a list of y domains in history and does not go to the same domain twice (FIFO for domain history).

      Then, you could have this running in the background, loading pages, perhaps at a random interval, to really confuse those who like to track users across the web. Imagine a few million users running this.

      And yes, it would only download HTML or text files; no images or other files over 25K in size. This means lots of web bugs and cookies for those lovely companies to chew on :-)

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      You have a sick, twisted mind. Please subscribe me to your newsletter.
  52. Why do they want this ? by Paladyn · · Score: 1

    If I was part of the security services/police I would NOT be asking for mass surveillance. The hard part is anaylysis of the data, which will inevitably become backlogged, so when a terrorist event happens it will turn out that the security serivces had all the information which - when published after the event - will make them look stupid because it will demonstrate that they had all the information needed to prevent the event.

  53. To be fair to the Lib-dems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To be fair to the lib-dems...
    Being in coalition with the Tories must be like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end.

    At the time of the election, Nu-Labia were far too authoritarian to enter into a coalition with. For example, they were still spouting loudly about ID cards amongst others.

    All the same, if the Lib-Dems don't wake up, I dare say the Green's will pick up a few alienated lefty Lib-Dem voters who don't want the authoritarianism of Nu-Labia.

  54. Finally ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Somebody is actually going to store the whole Internet - actually each ISP will have its own copy. It is always useful to have backups of the Internet

  55. My concerns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The things that concerns me regarding this bill are as follows;
    1. This bill will almost certainly cause a bottleneck on internet traffic, as ISP's will need to supply more resources into recording and storing our activity.
    2. The predictions of the cost for this will be way off, when has ever the government been accurate with a financial cost? The time it takes to implement?
    3. This monitoring will soon spark off more requirements of ISP's to obey stricter ruling, with this I predicate service provider costs will go up to compensate for the requirement of change (i.e. expect the internet bills to sky rocket with added taxes etc for virtually the same service on our part)
    4. This action will go against the nature of why the internet exists. The internet is designed to be as flexible as possible so that global communications should be possible in no matter what situation.
    5. This bill also encourages the work to censor and ban websites, eventually getting to the state where the only websites are accessible are ones limited to British ruling, which I would not be surprised if groups like the BBFC got their grubby hands into the pie.
    6. A more underground network(s) will emerge, much like when bluetooth was popular in mobile phones, where file sharing and piracy will be done in ad-hoc manner which is uncontrollable by the government.
    7. It will make our public appearence of British citizens as being incapable of accessing the internet on our own, that we are children to the nanny state

  56. How to seriously defeat these nazis by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

    1. create a screen saver for all OS's that does the following;

    a) endless loop to send /dev/random data from your PC to the ISPs router at full UP rate when idle.

    b) making sure that the destination isnt billed as its internal to ISP only

    c) watch their harddrives FILL UP exponentially forever at stagaring rates at 1 HD per minute.

    d) after a few days , they will get DISK FULL dialog.

    e) watch their costs go so high, no govt can afford to pay for 1 HD per second per ISP

    f) seagate/wd stock soars as orders go into the millions of HDs.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
  57. Can someone explain to me by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

    How do Tor, VPNs, etc help? I always thought they protected you at the other end i.e. a website couldn't tell who had accessed it. Surely the details of the web page as it goes from the ISP down the phone line to your router is goint to be pretty much wide open and that's the point where it's being monitored. I can see encryption making a difference at some level but surely there's still some detail about what's coming in? Unencrypted headers or something? happy to be pointed to a 'Internet Security 101' guide but I've looked and not really found much.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    1. Re:Can someone explain to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do Tor, VPNs, etc help? I always thought they protected you at the other end i.e. a website couldn't tell who had accessed it. Surely the details of the web page as it goes from the ISP down the phone line to your router is goint to be pretty much wide open and that's the point where it's being monitored.

      Are you serious? Do you really not understand even the basic concept of a VPN?

      A VPN creates an encrypted connection all the way from your PC to the VPN node. The ISP sees you are connected to the VPN node. That's it. Anything you access via the VPN - website or whatever - is in effect completely invisible to your ISP. Same with TOR.

      (Yes, alright they might get some sort of idea of the general nature of the traffic (web, bittorrent etc) due to the volume and patterns; but they *cannot* access the content).

  58. A bad day for democracy by dgharmon · · Score: 1

    "You might not be so happy to find out that from now, every single thing you do online will be recorded and stored by the good old Internet Service providers (ISP)".

    I thought they were already recording everything, of course this won't affect the online crooks, what it will do is suppress online discent, a watched population is a compliant one, a bad day for democracy.

    --
    AccountKiller
  59. As You Like It by jbdigriz · · Score: 1

    All the world's a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players:
    They have their exits and their entrances;
    And one man in his time plays many parts,...
                                                                                            ---Bill S., 1600

    Not a sparrow shall fall...
                                                                                            ---Matthew 10:29

    Now if only one could get a copy of the script in advance....

    jbd

    "Whoa, kind of feel like God!"
                                                                                        ---"Cereal Killer" in Hackers I

  60. Again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't they announce this like ten other times?

    Anyway. I'm going to be randomly generating multiple terabytes of encrypted data on the net, just so they can have fun with it.

  61. Turn About by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If politicians and corporations are doing nothing wrong, then they have nothing to hide, so there is no reason not to leak it all.

  62. Re:Read the draft, more interesting than the artic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "They" or their data-mining algorithms, read your emails already, in the US, legally or not. I'm sure the UK is no different. I remember cell techs telling me 25 years ago about Feds camping out at the switches listening in on conversations, too. Presumably so they would know where to "stumble upon" grounds for warrants and the rest of the dog-and-pony show that was, and partly still is, the U.S. court system. Nowadays, of course, it could be for admissible evidence in secret courts. Back then, they'd let coke-dealing gang-bangers under surveillance plan murders and then carry them out, since they were "trying to build a case for cocaine trafficking convictions". It was a trickle-down benefit from the whole "Clear and Present Ollie North Days", the mulitplier effect working on alll those black budget dollars spent on guns for hostages, neo-con fearmongering, FLETC psyops training, etc.

    You may be right about feature creep, but it would be redundant, as would feature creep for the NDAA. The authority is there, whatever the promulgated intent.

  63. Don't take that UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't just complain, don't just circumvent, don't accept. Stop it dead in it's track. Use whatever means are necessary, break the law if you have to.
    Because if you take this lying down then it's just that much easier for the rest of the world to accept it.

  64. Let's trip along Memory Lane and Delusion Street by Catbeller · · Score: 1

    Please explain, as almost all did ten years ago, why such rantings about "they" tracking us were paranoid delusions, and how no-one cares what you are doing. I'd like that trip down memory lane. Yes, I am vindicated and bitter. Deservedly so.

    GPS for cell phones IS for tracking everyone in real time (whether you switch it "OFF" or not, it's software, they switch it back on), they WILL mandate tracking for cars, voting computer systems ARE intended for Republicans to steal elections at will and will soon serve the same function for conservatives in Canada, they have mandated every damned motherboard in the last ten years a spying/tracking device, and the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. Looking forward to further vindication, and possibly a large bottle of scotch whiskey. Daily.

  65. Fight it with your geek powers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another way to fight this is obfuscation. If someone could create an application that opens any one of a billion random websites at randoms intervals all day and all night we could overwhelm their ability to store/track effectively. Enough people using this software we make this a nightmare project to implement.

    Keep in mind that the government is footing the bill here. The easiest way to kill a government project is to make it impossible/expensive. That will get media attention and that will lead to politicians thinking twice before putting their name on the project.

    Could someone with more skill than me please stand up and create this? I beg you.

  66. It's a DRAFT by dww · · Score: 1

    The important thing is that this is the DRAFT Communications Data Bill. It would have been a normal bill where amendments are possible but usually opposed by the Government (who have the majority). But Nick Clegg and other Lib Dems insisted it be published as a draft, so people can comment on it and so changes can be made. Julian Huppert MP is already working to change it, and has got himself on the committee of MPs who will be considering it - see http://www.libdemvoice.org/julian-huppert-mp-writes-communications-data-we-have-to-get-this-right-28964.html

    We MUST have a new bill, if only to replace RIPA (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act) passed by the previous Government, which introduced state snooping on a grand scale, (did you know that in the past year alone, there were 540,000 data requests under RIPA?). But the proposed bill has many flaws too; jsut to start with, Part 1 gives far too much arbitrary power to the Secretary of State.

    So it is up to those who oppose the bill to make their views known and put reasoned arguments and views forward to the Committee considering it. This government has shown it /will/ change its mind if enough people object to things it is doing, and in this case it's easy for them to do so as it's a draft, with changes expected. See also http://carons-musings.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/169-days-to-help-julian-huppert-protect.html

  67. Re:Let's trip along Memory Lane and Delusion Stree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Small comfort in being a prophet if no one listened, huh? Well, actually they did, but thought they could have their cake and eat it, too, in a plausibly deniable way. They know who I'm talking about, now that they're moaning and wailing, and gnashing their teeth, too.

    The whiskey sounds like a better idea. Make mine bourbon.

  68. Well this one is easy by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

    Just use a VPN and no need to fear :)
    VPN service can be rather inexpensive :)