Slashdot Mirror
Immigrants Crucial To Innovation
gollum123 sends this excerpt from the NY Times:
"Arguing against immigration policies that force foreign-born innovators to leave the United States, a new study (PDF) to be released on Tuesday shows that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. Conducted by the Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York, the study notes that nearly all the patents were in science, technology, engineering and math, the so-called STEM fields that are a crucial driver of job growth. ... The Partnership for a New American Economy released a paper in May saying that other nations were aggressively courting highly skilled citizens who had settled in the United States, urging them to return to their home countries. The partnership supports legislation that would make it easier for foreign-born STEM graduates and entrepreneurs to stay in the United States. ... The study notes that nine out of 10 patents at the University of Illinois system in 2011 had at least one foreign-born inventor. Of those, 64 percent had a foreign inventor who was not yet a professor but rather a student, researcher or postdoctoral fellow, a group more likely to face immigration problems."
haters gonna hate, no matter what.
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
A breakdown by country/culture would actually be interesting to see.
... those who already are highly educated and working on something, we benefit at the loss to other countries.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad.
I don't have any problems with people going through to correct immigration process to come to the "land of opportunity".
If somebody from another country want to immigrate to the US to better their education or persue better opportunities, the i fully support you as long as you go through the correct process of obtaining a visa and or citizenship.
My beef is with the illegal immigrants that sneak into the country, work under the table and not pay their fair share of taxes, and then get government assistance and benefits at the tax payers expense.
If you want to come to the US, then GREAT! i think that's wonderful!..... Just do it legally and pay your taxes like everybody else.
Any time I parse something like "(Partnership).*(American|(Econom(y|ic)))", I immediately lump it into the right wing propoganda bin.
Universities like non-citizen researchers because, as indentured servants, they cost less.
Not to imply that they aren't doing their fair share of research, but they make up a significant portion of the university research body. Of course they'll be on a significant portion of the results.
It's a nice employment loophole for corporations to get cheap labor instead of having to relocate or off-shore. It's that simple. Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Yes, many immigrants were and are very influential in the development of a significantly large number of patents. That's wonderful. So how many of them were illegal immigrants?
Given that >~ 50 % of STEM students are foreign-born, and a typical research group consists of 3-4 people, the odds of finding a foreign-born student in a research group composed of randomly selected students should be about equal to or greater than 90%.
So what seems interesting to me is not the UI number, but the statistic for the rest of the country. Three out of four seems extremely low.
You mean that the smartest and brightest are not all born in the USA? I'm shocked.
As much grumbling as there is in the tech sector over the HB1 folks (legal status), the average Joe out on the streets is far more resentful of the uneducated migrant workers picking strawberries than they are the post docs with PhDs filling up the universities. The former ones are lowering the wages at the bottom end of the scale for everyone by providing cheap, illegal labor. The smart, educated ones are a minority - and probably speak English pretty well, too.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
Well, tell that to your highly specialized american CEOs who hire them
when number of patents is used as a measure of innovation. It's only a measure of who has the most lawyers.
Another way to put it: Patents are not a reasonable proxy for innovation and contribution to the economy. They harm the economy, they do not help it.
Only problem is it raises the US unemployment rate.
So you are saying that bringing skilled people into the US will not generate additional economic benefits (which will employ more people)?
Maybe Sergey Brin's parents should not have been allowed to come to the US. Then we wouldn't have Google. Would more programmers be employed?
By your logic, if we kill all the programmers in the US, unemployment will fall to zero! Woo hoo!
I have never once seen an ounce of hostility toward legal immigrants in my life. Is there really that much blurring going on between legal and illegal immigrants? There is a distinct difference, even though it tends to be left out of news reports. I bring this up because illegal immigration is the hot topic of the week and it seems like some slashdotters aren't picking up on the difference either.
Though I have heard that legal immigrants frequently get jerked around by the system. I've heard nothing but sympathy for this when it comes up in conversations with -only- other native born folks. (which means they're not being two-faced about it)
Charisma is the measure of someone's ability to lie with a straight face.
I think the majority of US citizens are very welcoming of legal immigrants that come here and (hopefully) want to become American citizens...and meld into our culture.
We're especially welcoming of legal, documented immigrants that have education and skills.
I think for the most part, the main thing we care about for our immigrants...is to just sign the fucking guest book on they way in....you know?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
I wish people would stop conflating "immigration" with "illegal immigration". They're not the same - immigrants are the lifeblood and the roots of the US. Illegal immigration is a blight. They're different people. Folks - of all races and nationalities - that come here illegally generally are different than the people who jump through the hoops and do it legally. If they can make it in their own country they don't find the same need to break the law and come to the US.
Regardless, the very fact that they entered the country illegally is sufficient cause to want them to leave.
So that's why 3 out of every 4 patents coming out of research universities are garbage!
Do immigrants play a role in drafting laws and international treaties for Washington by any chance?
It takes 5 years or more for people from certain countries (India/China) to get a greencard after they obtain advanced degrees in the US.
Politicians don't care or talk about this, because these people don't give them enough votes. That's the problem.
Its an invasion by any other name. A way to do it via ignorance and never firing a shot.
The hungry dog gets the bone.
The sort of people dominating STEM in the English-speaking countries are precisely the people we want: hungry, ambitious, motivated and with something to prove. We need more or them, and in any case, if we don't get them, then somebody else will. They contribute to OUR bottom line, or potentially, to somebody else, like China, who hate us and don't share our values or morals.
People who are talented, and prepared to move countries to work hard and make the world a better place, should be honoured as heroes, not vilified or rejected.
My taxes pay for state run universities to exist. When I see my children work hard for their grades, good enough to get into any university, only to see others with parents that did not contribute a single dime, get allowed to go to the head of the enrollment line; that's when I see my children get hurt. Why must America's children be the victim of a petty Chancellor's greed?
I think India getting pissy over not being able to purchase an F-22 Rator says it's time to reconsider BRIC.
So Slashdot is now pro-universities-filing-patents? Is it because Soulskill gets to publish something science-related as long as he gets his gets to promote his leftie agenda while he is at it? Universities filing patents... bad... immigrants (legal ones) were involved in it and can be used to make a vague emotional connection through knee jerking to the illegal immigration debate... good... Honestly, Soulskill....dude.... Get a life.
that all this study proved was that people given jobs do their jobs. However, the crux of the argument around immigration is *who* is given the job. Let's be honest, there are ONLY a few reasons that a country of 300 million people would ever *need* foreign born researchers: they work cheaper, they were recruited to strategically keep them out of the hands of other countries, our "domestic" educational system is a failure and lastly, self-loathing. All the rest, like this is just justifying after the fact as a way to evade actually stating the reasons I gave above.
Look, I am an immigrant, and I would like to believe I helped rather than hindered the innovation in my neck of the woods in America. (Though no patents, only trade secrets). But we have seen a constant barrage of postings and threads about how broken the patent system is. The speed with which patents are created is exceeding the speed of light. (But still it would not violate the theory of relativity because they carry no information ;-)). Suddenly using the number of patents issued to foreign born scientists and engineers as a yardstick to measure the innovation contribution of my fellow immigrants, just because it supports my point of view, does not seem to be right. If we are really contributing to the innovation scene here, we should find better metrics than merely the number of patents.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
They are countering an argument against H1B abuses that keep wages low on the lower skilled tech jobs by giving examples of how, when H1Bs are used correctly, they work as intended.
The "Partnership for a New American Economy" is lobbying for larger numbers of H1B visa to be issued so they can continue to have cheap foreign labor. I have nothing against H1B workers. In fact I work with more than a few and I enjoy working with them. They are students and scientists working on an international project and this is a legitimate purpose for a H1B. In fact, one of my coworkers just recently became a citizen.
It's the large number of H1B workers coming in for the sole purpose of keeping wages low that irritates me. Of course, corporate minded conservatives will be quick to point out that they are producing jobs in the US but will bury the fact that they filled them with foreign workers. The upside being that the money will spend a short time domestically and some of it will be spent on consumables and rent before the balance is exported home.
Anyway this propaganda piece is making arguments completely out of context of what is being lobbied. For starters, what is the number of innovations versus the number of H1B awarded?
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
This is America !! Get back on your and go back to Immigrantland where you belong !!
Depends if you consider a US citizen working at a local restaurant that wouldn't exist without the demand generated by all those foreign workers a benefit. Technically yes...
Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that local restaurant who could hire a different US citizen. The economic benefit is actually greater.
These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
Yeah. We can get rid of our religious fundamentalists again and our criminals can go down under. Brilliant!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
what's the difference between legal and illegal migration ?
Legal: Someone shows up at the border (perhaps after waiting "in line" to emigrate and/or get their paperwork) and meets with an immigration official. They show their ID, get a medical screening for contagious disease, etc ... You know, the sort of stuff that happened at Ellis Island and other locations for many decades.
"Despite the island's reputation as an "Island of Tears", the vast majority of immigrants were treated courteously and respectfully, and were free to begin their new lives in America after only a few short hours on Ellis Island. Only two percent of the arriving immigrants were excluded from entry. The two main reasons why an immigrant would be excluded were if a doctor diagnosed that the immigrant had a contagious disease that would endanger the public health or if a legal inspector thought the immigrant was likely to become a public charge or an illegal contract laborer. "
http://www.ellisisland.org/genealogy/ellis_island_history.asp
It's obviously easier for the (investment) banker / politicians to exploit immigrants to leach off their productivity, at least for a while longer.
It sounds like they are arguing to change a broadly applied visa policy to support the one-in-a-million foreign-born propeller-head who actually produces a patent. I am skeptical.
Proverbs 21:19
This whole thing about immigration (legal or not) is simply ridiculous.
Like most industrialized nations, the rate of population growth of the US is declining. We would be under replacement rate already were it not for immigration.
The population growth rate is in decline even with the current rate of immigration, which is at historically unprecedented levels (about twice as many as the early 1920's).
Illegals make up a disproportionally large segment of the prison population, but overall, violent crime is way down. (Blacks also have a disproportionally large prison population.)
Thinking that the country cannot sustain the influx, or that these people will somehow reduce our standard of living by requiring more services, or increase the crime rate is simply not supported by the evidence.
Then there's the innovation. Jobs come not from existing businesses, but from starting new businesses, and from new-ish businesses growing large. Immigrants tend to make the most of their opportunities by inventing new things, starting new businesses, and encouraging their children get educated and become successful (source).
Then there's the infrastructure. Illegal immigrants don't contribute to the infrastructure by paying taxes (as much), but at the same time they become a burden on the infrastructure by avoidance. They avoid the hospitals until something becomes an emergency, they don't alert the police to minor situations before they get out of hand, and so on.
Then there's the exploitation. Illegal immigrants have no recourse when their employer abuses them.
It would almost seem, from a completely neutral viewpoint, that just allowing illegals to become citizens would be a win all around.
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
Perhaps someone can craft a reasonable sounding "what if" scenario that outlines the sophistry for me? I'm not having any luck identifying any evidence-based reasons.
You seem to be waaaay out of date on how they get work.
every morning there is a group of around 20-30 illegals standing outside of lowes and home depot, they wait until someone drives up, points to them and says wanna make a few bucks, than they go, start hammering or doing other things that high school students should be doing to learn a hard days work,
Where I live the INS and DHS have sent all of those folks back home.
Illegals that are still here in the country have the HELP of their employer. That's right, if an illegal is here in the US WORKING, they have the help of the employer. Don't anyone tell you different. WHy? Because there are so many checks on worker status now that you NEED an employer to be an accomplice.
As opposed to all of those patents in English lit and women's studies, I suppose...
Rob
This says that a sub-category of immigrants is important for innovation. Specifically (surprise, surprise!) advanced students from abroad who come to American universities proceed to make discoveries. It does not say that immigrants generally are important for innovation, or that these discoveries wouldn't have been made in their home countries.
Low-rent H1-B scum, absolutely not. Kick the fuckers out.
We really have to let people understand that ANYONE that's willing to immigrate, illegal, legal, H1-B, or whatever, is already miles above the average American citizen.
There really is no difference between any of these immigrants. You want these people in your country. You want them over the average American citizen.
Immigrants, illegal or legal, work harder than the average citizen. Their crime rates are lower than the average citizen. When an illegal moves into your neighborhood, the crime rate goes down. Illegals perform the work that Americans never want to perform, such as picking strawberries or cleaning toilets. In fact, if an American actually does those jobs, that's an indication of a failure in the system: we spend tens of thousands of tax dollars to educate an American in the public school system, and they end up cleaning toilets? THAT'S a failure.
Really, the only demographic in America that are concerned about illegal immigrants are uneducated libertarian-leaning whites. If their social status is threatened by illegals, then perhaps we should reconsider their citizenship in the first place. You really don't deserve anything more than an illegal, just because you're BORN here. All your citizenship rights should be put on hold until you actually earn your citizenship by graduating college. Unfortunately, you're not special, no matter what your conservative right-wing parents told you. Sorry to break it to you. I really don't feel like I should pay my tax dollars to support you instead of some hard working illegal that deserves more of my tax dollars.
This is the is the same fuckwit demographic that buys guns (worthless garbage), thinks advertising is bad (you guys have no idea how many people buy magazines and newspapers BECAUSE of the advertising), hates socialism (they should move to Somalia if libertarians hate America so much) and generally believe in their own false superiority... you know, your typical Slashdot reader.
Seriously, you libertarians should just stop being libertarian. Drop it like a bad habit. It's silly, childish thinking, with too much idealism and 'belief', instead of any real-world value. You libertarians haven't thought your cunning plan all the way through. You should know why paying taxes to benefit lazy people actually ends up benefitting you. You need to stop looking at the immediate effect of your incorrect beliefs, and understand that long-term effects happen due to a far more complex system than what children can understand.
BTW, I don't understand why people still call it "illegal" immigration. There actually is no crime for overstaying your visa, which is what the vast majority of illegals do. It's still only a civil violation.
Another BTW, the exact opposite of the libertarian white male uneducated demographic is the Jewish female. You guys are pretty much the opposite of each other.
Replace the CEOs with H1bs and you'll get better results.
Leftists?
I don't really see any of the corporates wanting anything done about illegal immigration. Bush II was pretty hep on keeping a good supply of "slave" labor in for the southern states.
Most legal immigrants have a long way ahead of them. First one needs to be qualified enough to find a sponsor for the visa (aside from the Indian H1B farms). Next, a sponsoring employer needs to file the petition and actually hire the worker. Once the petition is approved, the prospect immigrant needs to apply for the visa at the consulate. Once this is approved the immigrant will relocate to the U.S. and will work for an X-amount of years for that employer while the permanent residency application is started. For most immigrants, this is a long and slow process (PERM, I-140, AOS) which can take years.
:-)
Any well-qualified legal immigrant who goes through that process will have already shown to be someone that has endurance and the will to succeed. I am not surprised that legal immigration is crucial to innovation. Here in Silicon Valley, where I relocated to a couple of years ago, I see many highly skilled foreigners coming up with great ideas and products. Not because they are better than US citizens, but because they have endurance and mental strength.
On a side note, isn't it true that 99.9% of the current US citizens are immigrants as well? The fact that your (assuming a citizen reads this) great-grandpa moved to the US in 1881 and mine didn't does not mean that our heritage is different
First, let me say that I have no problem with immigrants or doubt that they make a huge contribution to... everything.
That said, they're counting any situation where immigrants "played a role"... so if the project had 50 people in it and one of the junior members was an immigrant, would this thing have counted that into their vague as hell statistics?
See, these are the worst sort of stats. You can make these say anything depending on how you play with the numbers.
I'm to the point now where I don't even want to see the conclusions of a statistical study any more. I don't trust it. I want the the data and literal methodology. Short of that... it's just too easy to make stuff up.
This has nothing what so ever to do with the topic at hand. I don't really care. it's just a comment on how statistics are used in modern journalism. It too often lets journalists slip editorials into the news column under the cloak of "a statistical study." It's intellectually dishonest, sloppy, and/or ignorant.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
There has been at least one bill in recent years--HR 3012--which would have made legal immigration easier for highly skilled workers, and which was passed with an overwhelming majority in the House (389/15), only to be placed on hold indefinitely by Sen. Chuck Grassley in the Senate. The way I see it, 389 votes in favor of such reform suggests that the majority of Americans support such a move, but there seem to be many (largely) political hurdles to overcome before anything concrete actually gets done about it.
I wonder what percentage of those immigrants came from Europe, and what percentage were legal residents?
let me know when some uneducated illegal mexican dude starts a silicon valley company other than a taco truck.
of the local home depot are actually wealthy venture capitalists just waiting for their IPO. You should probably quit while you are behind instead of continuing to dig.
>>>to show the total level of depravity..... Why don't you tell us how much better it was for your grand pappies slaves
Wow. Such level of immaturity I have not seen since high school. Thanks for insulting me and my grandparents. FACT: 99.5% of currently-alive white or hispanic or asian Americans' ancestors never owned slaves. (And certainly not mine, since my ancestors lived in a northern state where slavery had been outlawed 3 centuries ago.) Not everyone who is white is your enemy..... you would know that if you were less niggardly in your education and spent more time LEARNING history and understanding other people (as MLK Jr preached).
*
*niggardly means "miserly" and comes from the Vikings. It has nothing to do with the other Spanish N-word.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Bad logic. Economic benefits don't equal more employed people. The corporate wish list is, in order of preference:
1) Don't hire people.
2) Hire people in a cheap backwards country.
3) Hire people in a cheap backwards state.
4) Hire where they really have to pay a real wage.
What you stated is trickle down economics and, if it ever was valid, is totally invalid in the age of the Internet where most corporations can hire wherever the hell they want.
When considering the number and quality of innovations there is an unbridgable gap between contributions of immigrants from countries like Germany or Switzerland and immigrants from countries like Guatemala or Zimbabwe.
http://i.cubeupload.com/T6cyLu.png
The problem is, there is no metric. The only metric that counts is _results_, and results take years, are ambiguous, can't easily be represented as a simple number, and certainly can't fit into a sound bite.
This is the problem. All we care about is the illusion of progress. We flock to sights like Slashdot to get a taste of an imaginary future. Executives flash their patent portfolios around as-if they were revenue receipts.
It's all ridiculous, but there's no simple solution to it.
YOU FUCKING MORON.
Diversity within a culture allows for more, and usually better, ADAPTATION. That's what societal, enterprise, and individual sustainability is really all about - i.e. it's about adaptation.
That said, this is a complex topic. We are not generating enough indigenous intellectual diversity because our education system needs a rehaul, or a completely new re-start. This probably won't happen, so we import the necessary diversity. This is one of America's strengths.
All that aside, I think it's abominable that way corporate leaders and our policy makers abuse the H1-B and other student and work visa programs. Too many highly skilled and innovative American workers are washed out of their careers, replaced by lower-priced, imported labor. There should be much more Congressional oversight about this, but that won't happen as long as private money (in the way of political donations) pollutes policy makers, and the policies they put forward.
So last night, after the SB1070 supreme court decision was announced, the local Phoenix news is carrying coverage of various people protesting the outcome. They decide to interview some guy that is willing to admit that he's here illegally. Looked hispanic...must have been some sort of strange coincidence...but I digress. So "Mr. X" goes on to say how upset he is with the ruling. Him and his family have been here illegally for 12 years he says. He goes on to say that he works hard, stays out of trouble, drives safely. Wait a minute...drives safely??? How does this guy get a drivers licence without a SSN or proper immigration papers? Or for that matter insurance? The answer of course is that he doesn't. He drives without a license (breaking the law...again), and without insurance (breaking the law...yet again). What happens if Mr. X rear ends someone and puts them in the hospital with serious injuries? Who pays the hospital bill? Not Mr. X, he has no insurance and probably little else in the way of assets. So the family of the victim gets stuck with the hospital bill, which could potentially bankrupt them. This is one of the things that gets lost in the highly emotional immigration debates. There are real consequences to people being here illegally.
The Onion had a video story about that scenario a few years ago. Best story IMHO to date from the Onion. After the CEO gets replaced by an illegal immigrant who was a former landscaper willing to work for 40% less than CEO (only 12 million dollars per year lol) he bemoans his new misfortune by asking "Do you know what it's like to be forced to spend all summer in your winter home!?" Classic.
But immigrants old jobs other than as programmers in the US. Maybe if we killed EVERYONE in the US, unemployment will fall to zero....
...wait a second.
Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
What?? Where did you get that from? I happen to disagree with the OP, but it seems you are adding your own prejudice to the reading. Idk about you, but the last 5 of 5 specialist doctors I have seen were either from India or Ghana. Half of my math professors in college were from India and they all taught nothing but the most advanced courses. Projecting some racism perhaps?
Yeah, the reason you're unemployable is totally because of all the brown people, not because you're an insufferable shithead.
Sincerely,
- Everyone else in technology.
P.S. We'd have written a longer reply, but between our jobs and all of the recruiters harassing us we just don't have that much free time. I'm sure you understand.
"The reason foreign students are important to American higher education is that they are cheap, since they are very often paid by foreign governments. Everyone in every American math and physics department knows this."
Although the rest of your post is total crap, this part is very, very true. After having worked in a University for three decades, I was strongly encouraged to take an early retirement; while I pondered this while burning off my vacation leave, I was already being replaced. h1b replaced. My replacement, a nice enough fellow, had been working on his paperwork for over a year, that is, several months before my strongly encouraged invitation. They got a Post-Doc with no real experience, but between the poor pay and minimal benefits that he received, our group had an extra $50K to spend on toys.
Oh, before jumping over me for nativist grumbling, I too am an immigrant; (But I really had little choice in the matter, being just under two years old at the time.)
OK, that being over, another group had worked to get a Staff Scientist in on an h1b at the same time. And he was the best. I doubt that there are five other people in the _World_ with his qualities in his chosen field. It was a miserable waiting time for him and his family, but he made it; Employed in a permanent position, with generous pay and full benefits.
It's not the system, it's the people who take advantage of the system, Employers and Employees both. h1b actually is badly misused, but it _can_ serve a purpose. But for every brilliant, valued Scientist, there are probably a thousand Code Monkeys brought in to work cheaply, and then just made to quietly go away when they are used up.
Patents are bad and should be gotten rid of.
Immigrants are responsible for 75% of patents in the US.
Toughening on immigration will help cut up to 75% of patent applications.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
In other words, you only want White, Immigrants, no ones with a little brown in their skin.
Think you need to see the countries of origin on page 9
/.
But the study is still logically wrong. It concludes "immigrants name on patents = immigrants needed for patents". Faulty logic. Just because there is an immigrants name on a patent, along with a dozen other names, does not mean that patent would not exist without immigrants. I could do the same study, but conclude that non-immigrants are crucial for patents, because 95% of the 2011 US patents had at least one non-immigrant inventor listed.
Besides study is biased, put out by pro-immigration group: " The Partnership for a New American Economy.... will pursue Congress and the White House to enact legislation which will create "a path to legal status for all undocumented immigrants now in the United States".[2] The partnership will seek to influence "by publishing studies, conducting polls, convening forums, and sponsoring public education campaigns".[1]"
So this is, basically, SPAM, on the front page of
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
"The Mexicans are doing the jobs we don't want to do. The Asians are doing the jobs we don't know how to do. Where does that leave us?" - Colbert
Ok, my subject is hyperbole. But anyone who has ever tried to legally immigrate or help a foreign friend try to move to the US knows that it simply isn't possible for the vast majority of people.
I will be brief and concise.
There is no "line." Illegals cannot get in the back of the "line" because the "line" does not exist.
The Green Card lottery is biased against the best countries. Ok, that's not exactly how it works in theory, but that's kind of what happens. Example: In 2012, Japan was awarded 435 visas and Nigera 6,204.
You can't come to the US just because you want to. You can't come regardless of whether or not you have the means to support yourself. You can't come regardless of your education level or English-speaking ability. You can't even come if one of your family members is already here--you must be the direct blood relative of a US citizen, a non-citizen permanent resident sibling is, for instance, not good enough (and becoming a citizen takes decades).
Almost the only way to immigrate (outside of political asylum) is through the arduous and exploitative higher education route. We, the American people, will spend hundreds of millions of our tax dollars to educate foreign students at the best universities in the world. Upon graduation from a prestigious American school with American knowledge, they either must get a job immediately (not easy in these economic times) or get out. Often times, they do get out, and they start those companies which are now out-competing us on the world stage. For instance, I challenge you to find a foreign technology company whose CEO doesn't have a Ph.D. from a California university. Now, assuming that the student is really, really dedicated to staying in the US, there are still substantial roadblocks to them staying here. Firstly, the paperwork for hiring a foreigner is insane. It's insane enough that really the only places that foreign-born U.S. graduates can work are universities, oil companies, or huge technology companies. Any smaller companies can't afford to figure out the legal mess required to figure out the visas, nor can they accept the risk that they'll hire a foreigner and their visa will be denied. The other issue is that if the foreigner doesn't keep their job, they will be deported. They have limited job prospects in the first place due to the visa and legal regulations, and the employers know it. The employers almost universally abuse these people because they know that their only chance to get a green card is to stay employed, the green card process is restarted if they change jobs, and they know that the foreigner wants a green card. So they can overwork and underpay them because they know the foreigner won't quit until they get their green card.
I have tried to figure out legal avenues for some friends in Japan. They have college degrees, speak near-perfect English, and have a passion for America and its culture. Nevertheless, we could not find a route for them to work in the US, so they remain in Japan.
The implication being that if they had lived elsewhere, they would have owned slaves.
And I like how you used "niggardly", considering how there's a dozen other, perfectly cromulent, words you could have used that don't sound racist.
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
Just wait until you turn 35.
not ALL white people owned slaves in the south either
and I like how you claim that ALL white people, if given the chance would own slaves when there are a dozen other ways you could have said that without showing your own racism towards white people
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The point is that very strict immigration policies might scare / keep away those whose contribution keeps the US No1 in Science / Technology.
Personal example : I'm from a EU country and did not have much trouble getting a J-1 visa for my postdoc. But :
- my status / contract has to be renewed every year, consequently I have to ask for a new visa to reenter the US once a year. For me this would mean ~$500 extra and 2-3 days of vacation lost but for someone from China/India it's getting stranded for up to 6 months before you can come back. This means that you might come to the US to work as a researcher and get "locked in" for the whole duration of your stay.
- once here, I have to go through extra crap just to have a driver's license and I have to renew it every year. How often do YOU go to the MVA?
Result : personally I love what I do here but the above bureaucratic crap just make me feel very unwelcome. If the US goes on with the xenophobic trends, you might just end up scaring the very people who make this country great.
You racist fuck.
White people aren't the only ones who get PhDs, in fact in my department less than half the PhD students are white, and even less of the professors.
That said the person you are replying to is an asshole as well.
There are some highly innovative countries that have very little immigration. Better look for some other crackpot explanation.
Not all slaves were African. Slavery has existed for all people of all colors since the beginning of history. My great, great, grandparents were white, German, and slaves, for instance--in Auschwitz.
Further, slavery was on every continent, for every race, and never really went away. There's an active slave trade between Africa and Arabia, and what are prisons but periods of slavery? The state owns you, and puts you to work "paying off your debt to society". Sounds a lot like indentured servitude.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
"immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities. "
Of course they do, because most of the graduate science students are immigrants. (36% of science, 64% in engineering at doctorate level)! Add to that the professors who are immigrants and this is no surprise whatsoever. But it could just have well NOT be dominated by immigrants if universities sought graduate students who are not immigrants.
So this is merely a reflection of current university's preference for cheap indentured lab-slaves who can be tossed back home if they complain. .
The implication being that if they had lived elsewhere, they would have owned slaves.
And I like how you used "niggardly", considering how there's a dozen other, perfectly cromulent, words you could have used that don't sound racist.
What a gyp.
This parent article is not making a sound argument for immigration. This is an argument for better US education including free college to develop our own talent. Secondly, if these immigrants are so talented, they need to stay in their often poor countries and develop their patents and innovations there, and I do agree that the international community should provide some aid for making that happen. This will add to their native countries success which they desperately need. We need to stop the brain drain as much as we need to stop flooding countries like the US with foreigners and focus on developing our own people.
I am sick and tired of hearing the same old lies and propoganda in support of immigration. The fact is i cannot think of a good reason for immigration. The above alternatives are far better and will have better effects on improving countries as good places to live for their people.
40% of the PhDs working in the US are immigrants.
End of story.
They are called ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS for a reason: because they're ILLEGAL! There is nothing wrong with legal immigrants, its the ILLEGAL ones that nobody wants! Why does no one seem to get that? Illegal immigrants bring in crime, drugs, diseases and corruption, while legal immigrants are screened for all of those things. If you are legal, come on in! If you are illegal, STAY OUT!
You also forgot to mention the brain drain which severely damages the country they come from. I am opposed to immigration since it is bad for the country they leave and bad for the one they come to. I support developmental programs in third world countries which help the people of those countries innovate and add to their own countries success and resources. I also think we need to stop immigration to preserve the unique populations and cultures of different countries as well. This involves improving economic conditions in all regions of the world through more development of the economies in third world countries.
Now what if that US citizen is actually qualified to perform the work of the foreign worker? The US citizen would make even more money and his increased earnings would also generate demand for that local restaurant who could hire a different US citizen. The economic benefit is actually greater.
So imagine if the foreign worker was going to work for free. Or perhaps a very advanced robot. And the company could now make things for less, and probably split that benefit between lower costs for the customers and higher profits for shareholders. Would that be bad?
Or what if that foreign worker just works outside the United States (for foreign companies) and competes with American workers anyway?
Aside from the fact that American society does not promote academic achievement and never has, there is something that you are missing very badly.
The birthrate among US Citizens is below the replacement rate.
No matter what you do with education you will never ever be able to replace the immigrant talent that comes to the US.
Think of all the advanced technologies we can learn from them (that is if they don't kill us). Unfortunately with this anti-alien attitude the country is taking i.e. Arizona, lots of luck of them landing in USA.
mfwright@batnet.com
Well most likely said immigrant was required to do the WORK for the patent, whether or not he was crucial to the viability of it. That's a double edged sword, without them it wouldn't have happened (or as many wouldn't have happened), but by using them we are training them to be innovators. They very shortly WILL be the key innovators, whether or not thye are now.
It is obvious to me that the left, which likes to encourage illegal immigration, is essentially in favor of legalized slavery.
A illegal immigrant in this country is no more than a indentured slave. Employers can treat them in any fashion they wish including by threat.
There is only one solution to the problem and that is to lock up anyone hiring a illegal worker and throw away the key.
I am not expecting anyone to fix the problem though as both parties are so corrupt to the core it will never happen.
Got Code?
What I find awesome is the way that when ever there is a bunch of stuff going on about Illegal Immigrants we get a crap load of information from many sources how good immigration is for the country.
Immigrants are what made the US a powerhouse in the world. Immigrants fleeing oppression looking to become a part of a nation built on freedoms.
Immigrants that came with nothing and received nothing. Immigrants that loved their new country and fought to become Americans.
All immigrants like those are welcome to apply and work to get full citizenship in the US. I for one encourage them and welcome them.
You can not though compare them to the people who sneak here and pop out babies and look for welfare with forms printed in their native language.
These are not the people that strengthen a country.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
To describe a phenomena, without bothering to investigate cause(s), implications, possible or even likely outcomes, etc. is ignorant. To make policy decisions on such information is mentally deficient. So why are so many foreign nationals cranking out vital University Patents? Wouldn't perhaps be related to the fact that so many universities in the U.S. are strongly favoring foreign students because they can charge twice the tuition and they're great for the bottom line? Could it possibly have something to do with the disgrace that Public Education in this country is today, I mean Louisiana is teaching kids that the Loch Ness Monster proves that Jesus is your God and savior and that the Flintstones was a documentary. Is it even possible that its an indication that we've been so screwing the middle class for so long, combined with cutting educational resources into virtual nonexistence, that the average person can no longer afford to attend a decent engineering or technical school, leaving only foreign students who are in the top percent of a percent from their large countries and being supported by sometimes entire villages to fill the ranks of said institution of higher learning.
Don't get me wrong, I applaud the plucky lad from one of the eastern slums of Mumbai, getting all the way to an American University on grit and intelligence. He's earned his right to be here. Its just that we've abandoned our own children on the side of the road and if there's a disproportionate number of emigres cranking out useful inventions its because we've failed our own. This isn't a call for letting more kids from China and India and the Africa into our schools (and I'm fine with that too.) This is a call for our legislators to pull their collective heads out of their posteriors and begin investing in our own future while we still have one worth getting to.
What studies? That's like me saying "scientists say giving realxmp £100 is good for your health", which is true, a scientist did say it, me. A study is only as good as the person who wrote it and the data they obtained.
If you want to worry about people taking your jobs, worry about China, India and Brazil. It isn't immigrants taking your jobs, it's the jobs themselves emigrating!
Another way to read it would be that Americans are simply no longer competitive, due to a culture that promotes hostility towards intellectuals and secular values; which has done nothing over the last 50 years to make the educational standards competitive. Quite the contrary. Most college course material in the US these days is written at a third grade reading level.
Is it any wonder that foreigners, from countries where they do have reasonable primary education standards do well? Just seems kind of obvious.
I'm not saying we don't need these people. At least, right now. But I think the answer is bring back competitive educational standards, and change the culture of ignorance that fears education and educated people. If we can't do that, we're done.
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Maybe if we killed EVERYONE in the US, unemployment will fall to zero....
Nah, it would be a NaN then.
Unemployed.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
innovation actually means exploitation. Because without cheap labor from immigrants the rich simply can't get richer by taking advantage of cheap pay.
Patent != Innovation anyway.
In an equally valid study.
yes, and they might be good at math, but they have no business teaching here in the US if they can't speak reasonable english.. I find paklish barely intelligible.
But did they invent the Chalupa? Nobody cares about immigration except when it comes to Mexicans.
Gróf András (later to be known as Andrew Grove) came as a poor 21 year old Hungarian to America in 1957 and eventually co-founded Intel in 1968 after having studied in the City College of New York and in Berkeley. With birthrates going down something has to be done integrate immigrants better in society and giving them a chance to make something out of themselves. When integration is complete the products are taxpayers who will give more to society than they have taken, especially considering that a large part of their early education has already been paid for by the country they emigrated from.
Sometimes people seem to forget that America is made by immigrants for immigrants.
In NYC a lot of the Korean shopkeepers looked down on the black people in the community.
They'd slam change on the counter rather than risk touching a black person's hand!
Do you still have or can you easily obtain citizenship in your nation of origin? Would you consider "running back" should it become less intolerable in your nation of origin than in the USA? When you look in the mirror, do you have thoughts akin to "I don't really belong here; I belong in $NATION_OF_ORIGIN"? That is THE question.
Racist fucks are found in the US military where they kill people and break things that would deny you the right to call the above poster a "racist fuck".
Racist fucks are found in the US intelligence services where they keep an eye on those who would frag you with explosives, poison you with chemicals, infect you with pathogens or turn you into plasma in a nuclear fireball.
Racist fucks are found in your local police departments where they keep a check on those who think they have "the right to commit the crime because they have certain immutable traits that places them in so-called "protected classes".
Racist fucks are found in the trades that keep the power on, that keep the water clean, that keep the sewage from infecting you as the defining characteristic of the THIRD WORLD, that keep your degree-required safe, clean and comfortable office at the temperature and humidity required.
Most of all, it was The Racist Fuck®, William Schockley that gave us the techology that paved the way to allow me to see that you said "Racist Fuck".
Ergo, You Mr. Tolerant-Unto-Effectual-Suicide Cosmopolitan Feelgooder have benefited from the work of all those racist fucks.
Racist Fucks bring good things after all.
Consider Operation Paper Clip.
Why is it that immigrants are better at math and science than us "natives?" Is it a simple matter of America attracting "the best" from other nations, thus making it only *appear* that "native" Americans suck at math and science? Or is it a matter of most "native" Americans not caring about math and science?
I vote for the latter. It appears to me that more Americans are attracted to business degrees. Even those who might be scientifically inclined do not appear to go into those fields (with the exception of medical fields, where a lot of money is). Everyone just wants to make 6 digits and drive a Lexus by age 25. It seems throughout history that immigrants are more willing to work hard and "build" while natives are lazy and complacent.
We need more cheap foreign labour says front-group for the Very-Big-Corporation-of-America.
I think the real issue is what I call "career tourists" vs "citizens". A "career tourist" is someone who wants to come here, work a job (perhaps cheaper than a citizen), and make money. Allegiance to the country itself? Only if times are good. Do they want to stay here long term? Maybe, maybe not. But let us say China invades (apologies, just a scenario). Career tourists want to hop on the first plane back to Mumbai. Citizens want to stay and fight. See articles about people returning to Mexico during the economic downturn - but what about the freedom, liberty etc ? That is not why they are here.
... or is it the other way around ?
There have been a lot of hues and cries about immigrants who are unfit for America - that they come here to suck up welfare, steal jobs, committing crime, bad influence all around, and so on ....
Or, is it the other way around ?
America used to be America the Beautiful
America used to be The Land of Plenty
America used to be Heaven On Earth
America used to be THE place all immigrants want to go to - no matter if that immigrant was from Europe or Africa or Latin America or Asia - the United States of America, with its Statue of Liberty, is _the_ place to be
But nowadays ... America is no longer the in place for many
Used to be that talents from all corners of the world flock to America - but - now, talents from America are flocking OUT.
When I was in America, the immigrants that I knew used to tell me that they planned to stay in America forever
But now ... I meet them in Africa, in China, in India, in Brazil, in Korea ...
And they are telling me a different story - that America is no longer the dream place - that the crime rate is getting intolerable, that their homeland provide them with more choices for their career, and so on ...
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
"Do you still have or can you easily obtain citizenship in your nation of origin? Would you consider "running back" should it become less intolerable in your nation of origin than in the USA? When you look in the mirror, do you have thoughts akin to "I don't really belong here; I belong in $NATION_OF_ORIGIN"? That is THE question."
The implied "Go back where you came from!" arguments are _so_ last century. Nowadays, I hear this much more: "Shut up. You're not entitled to a say. You're not a citizen." The past (Relatively large.), taxes that I payed are no longer a factor. The absolute minimum drain that I made on public services, (No wife, no kids, disgustingly healthy.), are no longer a factor. My reluctance to engage in _any_ political action (I'm basically a Moderate, small-s socialist, with Co-operative tendencies.), was no longer a factor. Speaking my mind _was_ the factor.
I even took US Citizenship classes, and frankly, was appalled. The implied requirement to assent to an anti-Leftist, homophobic, (No, I'm not...), racist, Imperialist mindset- that is a real problem with me. And what the Righties don't understand; what they don't want to understand, is that encouraging as many Immigrants as possible to pursue the fastest route to US Citizenship creates a subservient class of compliant, fearful Fellow-Travellers, who will vote Rightie. Recent Citizens are overwhelmingly Conservative, both Politically and Socially. But the Righties rabid anti-Immigrant policies of late have turned many of these Recent Citizens, reluctantly, to the Centralist Obama view.
My future? Possibly Stateless. My $NATION-OF-ORIGIN is becoming increasingly like the US, with anti-Immigrant AND anti-Emigrant sentiments. The cost of a decent 35' Sloop is quite reasonable these days.
-Anonymous Coward. For obvious reasons.
As a foreigner now based in the US, I'm astonished at the lack of talent US techies have compared to imports.
I'm also utterly impressed at the innovation from US business people. Totally ahead of the curve.
Could it be that US businessmen are mostly responsible for the good reputation of US techies, who have been riding coat tails since Mr. Moore and Mr. Woz?
I'm fully aware of how these comments will sit here at /., but I do believe it needs to be asked
"The Mexicans are doing the jobs we don't want to do. The Asians are doing the jobs we don't know how to do. Where does that leave us?" - Colbert
Managing and Marketing. Yes, these are dirty words here on slashdot, mainly because most technical people have inferiority complexes and varying degrees of antipathy towards others. Therefore, any discipline that mainly involves human interaction is denigrated. Couple that with natural human jealously, and you get the typically rabid hatred of successful, non-technical people that this site is famous for.
Please shut up if you're not native American. The only people with any reason to complain about immigration in the US / Canada / Australia are the native people. All the rest of you are illegal ie except you or your ancestors were issued a right to stay by a native American. In your hidden non hypocritical places (if you have one) you know this is true.
So just shut it and sit down.
>
You can not though compare them to the people who sneak here and pop out babies and look for welfare with forms printed in their native language.
These are not the people that strengthen a country.
No, but the babies probably are.
The babies of the babies maybe. For the most part the best illegal aliens do not care much for education. So their children have incredibly high drop out rates. After a generation or three they probably americanize a bit and get moving in the right direction.
Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
>>>And I like how you used "niggardly", considering how there's a dozen other, perfectly cromulent, words you could have used that don't sound racist.
Well to quote the Head of the NAACP (a black man in case you're dense): "It's a sad day when we must censor ourselves because of the ignorance of others. I suspect they are acting niggardly in their judgment," and "They should spend some money on dictionaries."
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
>that immigrants played a role in more than three out of four patents at the nation's top research universities
Considering that all of us are immigrants except the indians,
and that they would never be the ones to invent anything for technology, or science, or mankind as a whole.....
makes this story redundant....sort of like my post actually.....come to think of it.
Thats what EB-1 and EB-2 green card categories are for. A green card where you can apply for permanent residency based on your own achievements. If you are writing research papers or filing patents left, right and center it's a good category as you don't need employer sponsorship.
No mention of Norman Matloff? He's the goto guy on these issues. Just search on his name. As a former professor of statistics (now a CS prof) he's very good at demolishing the sort of myths propagated by "disinerested" sources like the "Partnership for a New American Economy, a nonprofit group co-founded by Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York". Some basic points:
1. Nobody objects to visas for those who are truly the "best and brightest", but most of our foreign STEM students are not in that category. The more highly ranked a university is, the lower the percentage of foreign grad students.
2. About half of STEM PhD's can't find work that requires a PhD. Ergo there is no shortage of STEM PhD's.
3. If these STEM people are so valuable, why do MD's and lawyers make more money? Perhaps we have a shortage of MD's and lawyers, and should increase the visas for them.
Many migrants lack https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Social_mobility in their native countries and hence move to USA.
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/respect-from-friends-matters-more-than-money-for-happiness-in-life.html
Casteism
no one wants to end immigration to america, our country was built on that concept, We simply want it done correctly. like our ancestors did
Yea right! When you came here what do you do? Started killing off the existing population and taking everything they had. A lot of the people that you would call immigrate from the South have more right to be on this continent than you do.
Your country was built on killing, raping and stealing and taking what is not rightly yours and you continue to do so.
I guess we just had bad immigration laws that was the problem.
Native America
Fighting Terrorism since 1492
Well most likely said immigrant was required to do the WORK for the patent, whether or not he was crucial to the viability of it.
I don't think "most likely" means what you think it means.... unless you're using your jump to conclusions mat to automatically assume only immigrants... um... do... work... which is... not true, and you probably shouldn't say that, to anyone....