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Church of Scientology Enlisting Followers In Censorship

DrEnter writes "Apparently, the recent very public divorce of Katie Holmes and devout believer Tom Cruise is reflecting negatively on the Church of Scientology. Adding to this are other recent issues causing problems for 'church' leadership. In response, the 'church' has decided to encourage its followers to censor online chatter and comments about the 'church' and the divorce. This Yahoo blog post sums it up nicely. In short, they are encouraging members to complain about people posting negative comments about the 'church' as violating the Code of Conduct' in the posting venue. I can only imagine they are hoping these complaints will just be rubber-stamped and respected without investigation, but I think the campaign deserves a bit more attention."

628 comments

  1. First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Book 'em, Xenu!
    --
    Posting anonymously because the Church of Clams still uses vexatious lawsuits against their critics.

    1. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Book 'em, Xenu!

      Please remove the above post as it violate's Slashdot's code of conduct which requires the exact phrase "Frosty Piss" to be used in all first posts.

    2. Re:First Thetan! by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Frosty Piss was unavailable to this poster as he has not reached OT$10M. His devotion is insufficiently funded, so he's basically darned to heck anyway.

    3. Re:First Thetan! by jhoegl · · Score: 1, Funny

      Agreed, the obvious use of the 'church' method to show that the author does not believe it to be a church means that the author has animosity towards the subject.
      Treat the subject with respect, and in return you will be treated with respect.
      May Xenu do the thingy that he must do to make an example out of the guy that talked so carelessly about it.

    4. Re:First Thetan! by jcr · · Score: 5, Informative

      Anyone who doesn't hold that criminal enterprise in contempt is just not paying attention.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    5. Re:First Thetan! by sortius_nod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disliked the use of 'church' for another reason. That is, I don't see a difference between Christianity & Scientology. Both are about believing in magic men in the sky.

    6. Re:First Thetan! by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then you haven't looked very hard. Big difference: Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines. Sure, some Christian churches are pretty much scams, but even those don't take it to the egregious level of Scientology.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    7. Re:First Thetan! by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Informative

      Anyone who doesn't hold that criminal enterprise in contempt is just not paying attention.

      Or is Lawful Evil

    8. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The difference is that a religion is a large, popular cult, while a cult is a small, unpopular religion.

      (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.)

    9. Re:First Thetan! by ByronHope · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ... Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines...

      True, but once they suck you in all Christian organisations want your money and they want it tax free.

    10. Re:First Thetan! by Culture20 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Christian doctrine is about making humans more empathetic and forgiving (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). Scientology doctrine is about making humans more sociopathic and heartless (release the thetans [conscience] holding you back, and you'll be superhuman, able to achieve any goal). That both of them use faith as a foundation of their respective goals makes them no more alike than if they had used sandwiches as their foundation.

    11. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The rise of this group is more recent news than history so we don't have to pretend that they are what the name in their scam says they are. That's why I think highlighting the 'church' makes sense and so I agree with the submitter, it's no more of a church than the fake ones set up to 'ordain' draft dodgers back in the day.

    12. Re:First Thetan! by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'm sorry, I'm channeling Joseph Smith right now...

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    13. Re:First Thetan! by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also Christianity does not specifically target those suffering from psychological illness and to compound that target psychologists and psychiatrists and their professions with a vilification campaign in order to ensure people suffering from psychological illness will end up trapped with in the corporate for profit cult of Scientology. This corporate cult of greed also goes to any disaster event to target people at the weakest, people when they are most vulnerable with a scheme or providing aid only to try take everything those people own. Far better to be called the Church of Corporate Psychopathy a for more accurate description.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    14. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disliked the use of 'church' for another reason. That is, I don't see a difference between Christianity & Scientology. Both are about believing in magic men in the sky.

      If you don't comprehend the vast difference between magic and divinity you're just a trolling r-tard.

    15. Re:First Thetan! by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Book 'em, Xenu!

      And it is at this point that we need to let the moderation "Funny" go past the 5 limit... sure there are many informative and insightful posts but once you hit 5 everyone gets it. Humor, however, can do amazing things including allegedly healing people. Also it has been proven to sometimes cause fluids to suddenly appear on monitor screens, keyboards, clothing, and furniture.

      That post was at least an 8...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    16. Re:First Thetan! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ... Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines...

      True, but once they suck you in all Christian organisations want your money and they want it tax free.

      But it is still a believer's choice to give or not, unlike scientology. And you should be glad that they are tax exempt. That's the only thing that keeps them from being able to tell their followers who to vote for. Being tax exempt means they can only speak on the issues, not the candidates.

    17. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All? You have been woefully misinformed.

    18. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, and if you know what MOST churches spend money on, you'd realize they're little different than thrifty families trying to help raise the neighbor's troubled kids while the parents are out partying.

      If it weren't for social structures like churches (but certainly not limited to them), the State would bear a far greater burden for nannying people who, it turns out, prefer to take care of each other and many strangers as well.

      There's a lot of secular value in churches, but many skeptics are too superstitious about spiritual issues (or as hung up on high-profile crazy churches as many people are on sensational television) to think much about that.

    19. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the whole xenu thing was because "dianetics" wasn't a religion as much as a pseudoscience and natropathic technique disguised as medicine and L Ron got hammered under the medical laws. Operating as a religion gave them so much protection he made up Xenu etc, none of the scientologists really believe this of course, they just hide behind it when they need to.

    20. Re:First Thetan! by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Informative

      True, but once they suck you in all Christian organisations want your money and they want it tax free.

      In almost every Christian denomination, giving is voluntary, not compulsory. As a practicing Christian, I give what I can, because I know the money goes into local charities, into keeping the lights and heat on in the church, feeds and houses the priest (giving him time to minister to the homebound, imprisoned, critically/terminally ill), etc. Most Christian denominations follow a similar pattern (note that I'm excluding the televangelists, and for obvious reasons, as most of them are blatant and obvious scam artists.)

      There is only one denomination I can think of which comes with a monetary requirement: The LDS/Mormon church, where you're required to give 10% of your income (among other requirements) in order to be considered "temple-worthy".

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    21. Re:First Thetan! by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      I heard you got big stones.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    22. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "That's the only thing that keeps them from being able to tell their followers who to vote for"

      I most countries the political parties make sure they have a 'Christian' tag somewhere in the party-name.

    23. Re:First Thetan! by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But they'll give you the information for free, unlike scientology, which gives you some only after you pay, and then they have their tentacles in you. So Christianity is sort of like shareware, while scientology is more like microsoft office.

    24. Re:First Thetan! by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      ...which has nothing on my even funnier post that goes all the way to eleven!

    25. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you want to know how screwed up Scientology is, here's one detailed account.

    26. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you don't comprehend the vast difference between magic and divinity you're just a trolling r-tard"

      So you're saying Christianity is magic and Scientology is divinity? He said "Christianity and Scientology, you said "magic and divinity".

      Interesting take.

    27. Re:First Thetan! by Nyder · · Score: 1

      I disliked the use of 'church' for another reason. That is, I don't see a difference between Christianity & Scientology. Both are about believing in magic men in the sky.

      Word, I don't don't trust Church's Chicken, probably try to sell me a sermon with my food!!!!

      --
      Be seeing you...
    28. Re:First Thetan! by Nyder · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ... Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines...

      True, but once they suck you in all Christian organisations want your money and they want it tax free.

      But it is still a believer's choice to give or not, unlike scientology. And you should be glad that they are tax exempt. That's the only thing that keeps them from being able to tell their followers who to vote for. Being tax exempt means they can only speak on the issues, not the candidates.

      Ya, except some church's go on and on about giving, and Give to God and God will Give to You. tithes and offerings, and tithes means like 10% plus you got to give more for offerings.

      They badger you so much on Sundays and if it was a holiday like easter or Xmas that pulled people in, omg, they would keep harping about it. Sort of like when you get them "free" vacations but you have to listen to them timeshare seminars while you are there? It is exactly like that.

      That of course, was like 30 years ago when I was forced to go to church. Has it changed since then? I doubt it. It's a way of some Christians to feel even better about themselves because they give to the church and are religious.

      What I do know is, the pastor bought a new car ever 6 months (caddies of course) and most the upper church management lived very very very comfortably.

      Pretty good for a bunch of people who used to be drug addicts and "got religion".

      In case anyone wonder who am I talking about, I'm mostly referring to Christian Faith Center in Seattle, and the red headed paster, Casey Treat.

      I could tell you stories about them and their fake beliefs. Life how they would have someone speak out in "tongues" then someone "randomly blessed by god" with the interpretation of what they said. One day, some guy says the interpretation of it, and I see by the look on Casey Treats face, that this guy isn't supposed to be talking. So what does Casey do? He says that god just told him that wasn't the interpretation we were to hear and then one of the deacons (and good buddies of Casey) said what the interpretation of the tongues where. Apparently they think I'm stupid as the rest of them, because I'm supposed to accept the blatant lie that just went on?

      Ya, fuck that.

      In these times of economic struggle, the Government should just take away the Tax Exemption for Religions. It would only be fair and if the religions have a problem with that, then they can pray to their gods for help with money.

       

      --
      Be seeing you...
    29. Re:First Thetan! by IICV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You realize that the whole "information for free" part of Christianity is relatively modern, right? There's a reason why the Church flipped out about first the Gutenberg Bible and then even more about the Luther Bible - they didn't want just anyone being able to read the thing, you never know what damn fool ideas those laymen are going to get into their heads (and to be honest they were right).

      Yes, Christianity is shareware today, but it has a history of being locked down tighter than Steve Jobs' iPad.

    30. Re:First Thetan! by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      As always, most of my contempt falls onto the suckers. Entirely there fault. Just like people who respond to spam.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    31. Re:First Thetan! by CptNerd · · Score: 2

      I was thinking about this yesterday, and I think I've boiled it down to one definition:

      If you are allowed to leave it without fear of physical, legal, or financial consequences, it's a religion. Otherwise it's a cult.

      Obviously other things come into play, but those are the big ones as far as I'm concerned.

      --
      By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    32. Re:First Thetan! by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      ...it has been proven to sometimes cause fluids to suddenly appear on monitor screens, keyboards, clothing, and furniture.

      Don't you need videos for that?
      Or at least a darn good picture...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    33. Re:First Thetan! by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      The scientology outfit's god is slightly different in that its supposed to be an alien,

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    34. Re:First Thetan! by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      Anytime a guy can talk about his post going to 11, well, just don't do it.
      The Spinal Tap ref ends up in a race condition with the short penis compensation joke
      and in the end nothing beats a short penis joke.
      I'd have bolded that last line but I didn't want to be seen as overcompensating
      Oh Crap...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    35. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mormonism requires you to be a full tithe-payer (10%) before it allows you into the temple to learn all the secrets.

    36. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good point. If the churches didn't have lots of money, who would pay the child molestation victims?

    37. Re:First Thetan! by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      It's hard to get the documentation done while beer is dripping from your nose...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    38. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Funny

      "I heard you got big stones."

      No, Moses had the big stones.

      Smith had the plates. But we're still waiting for the guy with the silverware.

    39. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "As always, most of my contempt falls onto the suckers. Entirely there fault. Just like people who respond to spam."

      While as a generalization I would be inclined to agree with you, it doesn't so much apply to this church. And here is why:

      The church leadership -- especially early on, including Hubbard -- were very, very good at PR and BS. That's why they established a completely separate part of the church for rich and famous people, where they get treated completely differently than everybody else.

      As a result, you have lots of rich and famous people thinking it's a GREAT institution, and telling everybody about it. But those who fall for all the hype, and aren't rich and famous, get bled of their possessions and shipped off to a work camp.

      As I say, if it were just up to individual judgment, I would tend to agree with you. But they have this very well-engineered PR machine set up to make people believe.

      Morally, that's fraud and deception. So far, they seem to have avoided legal consequences.

    40. Re:First Thetan! by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Funny

      Then they're more like a lot of FPS I used to play when I was younger: used to be pricey, is now shareware, and kept me from getting laid when I was in high school.

    41. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "In these times of economic struggle, the Government should just take away the Tax Exemption for Religions. It would only be fair and if the religions have a problem with that, then they can pray to their gods for help with money."

      There be monsters in them there woods.

      The REASON churches are tax exempt, is that we have a practical separation of Church and State in this country.

      The reason we have a separation of Church and State, is that our Founders, through experience of very recent (for them) history, knew very well the consequences of either having a Government-run Church, or a Church-run Government. Either case ALWAYS (over the last 800-900 years or so) ended in disaster.

      So they decided: government will stay out of Church affairs, and Churches would stay out of Government affairs. And it has turned out to be, in the long run, a very healthy way to run that relationship.

      But once you start to allow Government to tax Churches, you must then allow Churches to have some say in Government ("no taxation without representation"), and you have just re-created the mess that everybody fought wars to get away from.

      NO. No taxing of churches. And no influence by churches on government. No.

      No. No. No.

    42. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "The difference is that a religion is a large, popular cult, while a cult is a small, unpopular religion."

      Keep in mind that Ambrose Bierce The Devil's Dictionary was humor and social commentary, and 100% sarcastic.

      Even so, the definition of "cult" boils down to "believing in something bizarre". And by that definition, at least most modern large religions are in fact "cults".

      I mean: "bizarre" can be defined pretty non-subjectively. If you consider bizarre to mean "something so far outside mainstream experience that it would normally be considered a delusion", then indeed, almost all modern religions are cults.

    43. Re:First Thetan! by forand · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sadly you are very much incorrect in your assertion that making religious organizations tax exempt "keeps them from being able to tell their followers who to vote for." Churches do this all the time; they send out emails encouraging their members to vote against things or vote for specific candidates. Sure they are not supposed to do this but there is absolutely no enforcement of this rule. Heck didn't the Catholic church sue the federal government over healthcare laws requiring uniform coverage of workers (please note that churches were exempt from this, only entities which are not directly tied to churches were bound by it)? If that isn't getting involved in the political system then I don't know what is.

    44. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "If you are allowed to leave it without fear of physical, legal, or financial consequences, it's a religion. Otherwise it's a cult."

      But see, that's not semantically correct. Technically "cult" refers to the belief, not the practices of the believers.

      Call the religion a cult if you want, it makes no difference. But more to the point is whether the members of the cult ACT in ways that are obsessive or delusional.

    45. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      At least in the United States, history has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of a church.

      I could start a church tomorrow, sign up a couple of friends, meet regularly, and make it a tax-exempt church. It could be "The Powerhouse Church of Oral Sex" if that's what I want it to be. And the government could not stop me. In fact, they would have to make it tax-exempt, as long as it met all the other criteria (which are damned few).

      And if you want to live in a free country, rather than a Theocracy, that's the way it HAS to be.

    46. Re:First Thetan! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed. However, most churches will not let you be privy to certain other things unless you join, and either pay your dues, or volunteer your time. There are a number of things you do not learn until you reach the upper echelons. Like where the money is really going...

      *Joke* In fact, you have to reach the level of Son of God before they reveal that resurrection trick to you. Or how to make perfect waffles. *Joke*

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    47. Re:First Thetan! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Indeed, however, I might add that some "believers" go a little too far with 'spreading the Word,' and end up using duress / various borderline illegal methods to ensure others, including their own family, 'make it to the gatherings.' Methods of a nature that have more in common with the Spanish Inquisition than the happy believer filled with faith that 'it's all a part of God's plan.' Methods which Jesus would immediately distance himself from were he to suddenly return, and if he did not, people would see him as the ultimate form of evil.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    48. Re:First Thetan! by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Hmm. I see it more as religion is about money, while cults are about power.

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    49. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The church of scientology could learn so much from the church of Rome about denying wrongdoings, and blaming the victims. Perhaps they should wear more funny hats.

    50. Re:First Thetan! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are actually plenty of evangelical churches that consider the tithe to be mandatory for membership. A friend of mine was a pastor in one such (he's an atheist now).

    51. Re:First Thetan! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You realize that the whole "information for free" part of Christianity is relatively modern, right? There's a reason why the Church flipped out about first the Gutenberg Bible and then even more about the Luther Bible - they didn't want just anyone being able to read the thing, you never know what damn fool ideas those laymen are going to get into their heads

      You realize that this only applies to the Roman Catholic Church, and even that was a later "innovation"? Originally, the Church was spreading literacy far and wide precisely so that laity could read the Bible. And Greek Orthodox Church, which didn't try to focus so much on a single language, went even further and specifically created a writing system for languages which didn't have any until then, just so that they could write down the Bible in those languages to spread it further.

    52. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Well yes, relativism is relativism and you can write your own dictionary of course, but I just use normal English.
      With Scientology, your church example aside, it's so well documented with so many examples from day one that there is no longer any reasonable doubt that it's a scam dressed up as something else. The IRS thing was a case of running out the clock on one issue, and losing badly with members imprisoned on others. The IRS has never accepted them as a religeon and instead finally gave up and gave them tax exempt status due to other details, but mostly because the case was dragging on for so long.
      Going on about comparisons with real religeons is just falling for their trick and comparing some of their obvious camoflage with the things they copied it from. There's no point straying into that territory and wondering about the definition of a real religeon, because once that's pegged down a scam artist of this type just tailors their scam to match the definition.

    53. Re:First Thetan! by Empiric · · Score: 1

      He're a peer-reviewed medical journal article to help you see the difference per eye-witness reports.

      I'll leave the sizable distinction between the success rate at predicting future events between God and Xenu for another day.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    54. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you haven't looked very hard. Big difference: Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines. Sure, some Christian churches are pretty much scams, but even those don't take it to the egregious level of Scientology.

      Wrong. The revelation of the true doctrines is only for the big donors. Christianity is just much better at hiding this and keeping the masses ignorant.

    55. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "The IRS has never accepted them as a religeon and instead finally gave up and gave them tax exempt status due to other details, but mostly because the case was dragging on for so long."

      Um... that's not quite the way it really went. If you knew the true story about Scientology and the IRS, it would probably horrify you. But... I really don't want to get into that here, as it's beside the point I was making.

      You can be a "legitimate church", and still be abusive to your followers, or commit fraud, or -- most famously -- sexually abuse young boys. It still has nothing to do with them being a legitimate church.

    56. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 2

      All of what you say about a legitimate church can be true without it having anything at all to do with Scientology pretending to be a religeon. To start with it pretended to be a new form of psychology, but when that didn't work it pretended to be a religeon.

      You are arguing about the camoflage. That's just what these scammers want you to do.

      They don't care if we label them as an evilly twisted religeon because that still lends them the legitimacy of labelling them as a religeon.
      It's clear what this scam is so there's no point hunting for definitions of the thing it is pretending to be, because the pretence has been noted for the entire life of this scam.

    57. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You are arguing about the camoflage. That's just what these scammers want you to do."

      No, if that's what you're arguing, fine, but that means we're arguing about two very different things.

      And frankly, I think you're invalidly muddling two very different concepts here.

    58. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "... because that still lends them the legitimacy of labelling them as a religeon."

      NO, this is precisely the point you aren't getting. By law, they ARE a religion, whether you like their teachings or not!!! YOU do not have a say in that matter, and that's the way things are SUPPOSED to be!!!

      If you want to fight them, stop obsessing over whether they are a religion or not (which is a battle you would lose), and instead focus on all the otherwise illegal shit they do.

    59. Re:First Thetan! by CptNerd · · Score: 1

      Utterly false.

      --
      By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    60. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      but that means we're arguing about two very different things.

      Considering you replied to my post instead of vice versa I really do not see that as my problem, and I very much disagree that I'm "muddling" two concepts in suggesting that one of them does not apply in this case.

    61. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      By law, they ARE a religion

      No. They spread that lie but it was never ruled that way, especially in the USA.

    62. Re:First Thetan! by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 1

      No, no. Christianity is all about making you serve God. Everything else is there to get you to that point. Like the whole Jesus guilt trip. This guy suffered for you, gave his life for you. What are you going to do about it? Keep sinning without regret? And "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" doesn't work, it imposes your beliefs on your others. If you believe being gay is wrong, the golden rule says for you to call people out on it.

      --
      We are all God's parents.
    63. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I responded to your post because you have indeed been muddling two different things and you have your history wrong.

      I really, really don't want to get into the IRS thing here, but events did not happen the way you described. You should look a little deeper.

    64. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      No. They spread that lie but it was never ruled that way, especially in the USA.

      Jesus Christ. (Not a pun, but humor very much intended.) You really don't know jack shit about this, do you?

      You DON'T HAVE TO BE "ruled" a church in this country. You can only be ruled NOT a church.

      Methinks you should pick up some books, or get on the internet, and start doing some homework.

    65. Re:First Thetan! by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      So do you think church followers should be prevented from voting? After all, their organization is exempt from taxes, and 'no representation without taxation'.

      Do you also support tax-free status for other corporations, on the condition they don't tell their employees and customers who they should vote for?

    66. Re:First Thetan! by Swampash · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Anyone who doesn't hold that criminal enterprise in contempt is just not paying attention.

      Religion, criminal enterprise, has there ever been a difference? For any of them?

    67. Re:First Thetan! by Swampash · · Score: 1

      Big difference: Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines.

      Christianity requires you to pay money to go to heaven. How is that different?

    68. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      THE IRS CASE WAS NEVER RULED THAT WAY
      Clear now? I think you owe me an apology for the conclusion you jumped to.

    69. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Did they plant thermite as well or did you just misread it that way :)

    70. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But once you start to allow Government to tax Churches, you must then allow Churches to have some say in Government ("no taxation without representation"), and you have just re-created the mess that everybody fought wars to get away from.

      Oh really?

      Let churches not be able to use (government guaranteed) money or occupy space on (government secured) property, or trade on (government regulated) stock markets, and the separation is actually complete. Right now, chuches seem to be able to do all that, and they do it. Yes, even play on the stock markets. I say: Tax them.

      And "no taxation without representation" is a made-up idea. The real deal is "no taxation without equal access to government services".

    71. Re:First Thetan! by khallow · · Score: 1

      So do you think church followers should be prevented from voting? After all, their organization is exempt from taxes, and 'no representation without taxation'.

      What makes you think church followers don't pay taxes?

      Do you also support tax-free status for other corporations, on the condition they don't tell their employees and customers who they should vote for?

      Or contribute to campaigns. Does sound pretty interesting to me especially since there isn't that much value in business taxes (too many loopholes to game the system IMHO).

    72. Re:First Thetan! by Luthair · · Score: 1

      Christianity targets the mentally ill, addicts and the depressed *constantly*. Heck, they even send people to disaster areas in the third world and preach that it was their fault for not believing in god/jesus.

    73. Re:First Thetan! by ZosX · · Score: 4, Informative

      They aren't considered a real, recognized religion in many countries in the world. They truly are a criminal organization. Too many people have died. They also pretty much control the town they are based in with the police completely in their pocket. No, they truly fit the definition of organized crime. If I personally thought assassinating church leadership would bring an end to the suffering they inflict, I'd probably be the first person camped out in florida with a rifle and a scope. I don't think that would put the organization out of commission though.

    74. Re:First Thetan! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There wasn't an income tax code for approximately the first 150 years of the country, so the reasoning given doesn't hold water. By the time the tax code was established, religious organizations were providing much of the medical care, orphanages and other social welfare systems. Congress decided that this was good as it benefited society and it should be encouraged. As such, contributions to these organizations were encouraged, though the tax code.

      Then in the 40s, many churches became out spoken regarding reparations from the war and the treatment of the Germans and Japanese people. The government felt that this was counter to its agenda. Out of fear of the power of churches the law was changed that to keep the tax exempt status, churches could not get involved with politics. As a side note, this was also around the same time that Eisenhower wanted to start the interstate highway system to mimic the autobahn. His concern being that like the churches, the railroads were too powerful and could thwart the movement of troops.

      Basically, the issue with churches being tax exempt and not being allowed to be active in politics stems from them providing a public service for the common good but also in protecting those in power from the popularity of religious leaders.

    75. Re:First Thetan! by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Sadly you are very much incorrect in your assertion that making religious organizations tax exempt "keeps them from being able to tell their followers who to vote for." Churches do this all the time; they send out emails encouraging their members to vote against things or vote for specific candidates. Sure they are not supposed to do this but there is absolutely no enforcement of this rule. Heck didn't the Catholic church sue the federal government over healthcare laws requiring uniform coverage of workers (please note that churches were exempt from this, only entities which are not directly tied to churches were bound by it)? If that isn't getting involved in the political system then I don't know what is.

      In the United States, a church can loose its tax exempt status if it tells people who to vote for. This has been the law since the 1940s and many a church has lost its status. As for voting on issues, the courts have ruled that is permissable since most issues are moral or values based and that is what religion is about.

      The Catholic Church along with a large number of protestant churches did sue the US Government over the HHS mandate on the grounds it infringed on their religous rights. They even told their followers to contact their representatives to overturn it. That is all legal and allowed as it is about an issue. If they had said to vote out everybody who supported the mandate, that would be a violation. Now I am not stupid and I know a lot of catholics and protestants are saying just that. However, that is not their leadership. Individuals, even if they belong to a church, are free to excercise their freedom of speech -- of course individuals aren't tax exempt.

    76. Re:First Thetan! by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2

      Ahem... Seer Stones ... a.k.a. bunkem, hoax, fraud, grifting, or in California get rich quick with gullible idiots or in Baptist Church circles, way ahead of his time.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    77. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But once you start to allow Government to tax Churches, you must then allow Churches to have some say in Government ("no taxation without representation")

      Wait, what? We tax businesses, but we don't let them vote. It should be the same deal with churches. The only way in which they differ from businesses is in their religious aspects, which shouldn't have any affect on the way they're treated by the government or the IRS.

    78. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who was the first to break that contract?

    79. Re:First Thetan! by akeeneye · · Score: 1

      "used sandwiches"? I know how that's going to come out, all brown and squishy and reeking. But you're right, that's the foundation of most religions.

      --
      The man who dies rich dies disgraced. -- Andrew Carnegie
    80. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    81. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you forgetting the chatic neutral crowds

    82. Re:First Thetan! by TFAFalcon · · Score: 1

      The Church itself does not pay taxes. At the same time, it most certainly seeks to influence the government. It's employees might not go as far as name a specific candidate the people should vote for, but they certainly let people know that the antichrist will get them if they vote for that damn dark soulless socialist. So the church keeps it's 'representation', as much as any other organization, while not paying taxes.

      As for not allowing corporations that are tax exempt from contributing to campaigns - They'd just set up a dummy corp to funnel all of those bribes through.

    83. Re:First Thetan! by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      So what you are saying is the church of scientology is like the US government?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    84. Re:First Thetan! by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      Except that christianity has nothing to do with magic men in the sky. I'm not a christian but at least learn about something before you criticize it instead of just blindly believing the ignorant masses belief about something.

      Funny how most people who look down on religion as devoid of fact and logic seem not to possess those characteristics themselves.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    85. Re:First Thetan! by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2

      Uh... no it doesn't. I have no idea where you got your information, but you are woefully misinformed on the doctrines of that religion (as a whole). There may well be some churches that preach what you say, but Christianity overall teaches that nothing except faith will get you to heaven.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    86. Re:First Thetan! by Jmc23 · · Score: 2

      7Good to see you've clarified the 'christians' you are ranting about. Believe it or not ,not all christian religians are like most US religions. The christians I've met in my travels are some of the most decent people I've ever met. Never met one of those in the US, but there are stories, you know churches who use their donations for humanitarian reasons across the world instead of lining their pockets, making bigger churches and bigger media budgets.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    87. Re:First Thetan! by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      You mean I can't increase my Penis size? After I sent all that money for a 'WangRack'! I even upgraded the wieghts to 10kilos.

      Scammers lie. It's everybodies job not to believe them.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    88. Re:First Thetan! by jrumney · · Score: 3

      If you are allowed to leave it without fear of physical, legal, or financial consequences, it's a religion. Otherwise it's a cult.

      Is there a reason why you left social consequences off that list? Cutting escapees off from friends and even family is a technique widely used by cults, the others you list are really only used by scientology (perhaps physical threats are more widespread, but abuse of the legal system to harrass their enemies is a scientology thing, and the financial consequence of leaving a cult is usually that they stop being a drain on your finanaces).

    89. Re:First Thetan! by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      I guess you aren't aware of a host of studies that show that for most psychological "disorders" medication is as effective as psychotherapy? Or that psychotherapy is as effective as talking to some one who will listen (like a friend)? I don't agree with the overall view of scientology but their 'fight' against psychiatry(doctors prescribing drugs) is founded on truth. However this truth is overshadowed by their evilness in using it as a honey pot and the intense indoctrination from the pharmaceutical industry teaching the US (and by bleedthrough the world) that drugs are the only answer.

      Funny how the US gov't is always for drugs to control people or make them hardworking but so against anything that frees you from their "reality".

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    90. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A cult is just "a system of religious veneration." Or "a system of religious beliefs and ritual." We today think of it as "believing in something bizarre," but it's not. The third given definition by M-W is "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious." But that's not in conjunction in 1, it's just another way it's used. Christianity is a cult. Whether you think that's derogatory or not is your own personal opinion. A cult is not necessarily something bad or wrong and does not necessarily mean you believe in something bizarre.

      Though, I'd say all religions believe in something bizarre.

    91. Re:First Thetan! by lxs · · Score: 1

      Not agreeing with the designation of "church" does not automatically imply animosity. Believing that CoS is a homicidal mind control cult does imply animosity. That I happen to hold both views simultaneously is probably just a coincidence.

    92. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      501c3, the tax exemption was a deal they cooked up. The gvt has final word about what is not preached.

    93. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      has been proven to sometimes cause fluids to suddenly appear on monitor screens, keyboards, clothing, and furniture.

      Your talking about Katie HolmesKatie Holmes, right? ;-)

    94. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > That post was at least an 8...

      No. It was... It was... OVER 9000!!1

    95. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't they get thrown in a volcano or whatever Hubbard was dreaming about that day?
      Oddly, on a sidenote, I've recently heard that Hubbard was a Kansan from Wichita, Like Kirstie Alley, Coincidence or Tranny Clone? Is Tom Cruise a $cientologist test tube baby? Did Lisa Marie donate her divorce settlement from Mikey Jackson to the Church in order to ride Xenu's rocket? If I post as Anonymous Coward, does that mean I'm with Anonymous? It certainly doesn't make me a Cow, a ward , a cows ward or a coward. Do fish feel pain? I mean I saw this movie once where they stuck these flaming hot coconuts to fish with a tooth pick so they would swim around and the sharks would eat them and the hot coconut, thus killing the shark. But the fish seemed ok with a boiling coconut stuck to their top fin by a toothpick stuck in their body. Oops, I drifted, but, makes ya think, donut?

    96. Re:First Thetan! by CptNerd · · Score: 1

      Good point, I forgot about disconnection, although compared to being threatened with death it's not as severe it is still a good marker. I'm thinking of some way that a group can be identified as harmful, regardless of whether they call themselves a "religion" . "Cult" was a short-hand word like "porn" which most people can recognize in obvious examples but which lack a very good definition legally. Since I'm not a lawyer my definition is just as good (and just as bad) as any definition of "porn", but I thought I'd give it a go.

      --
      By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    97. Re:First Thetan! by flyneye · · Score: 4, Informative

      But the Church of the Subgenius. http://www.subgenius.com/ does pay taxes and want to make YOU rich! Not just that but we also have a deal with YHVH1 and a group rate for the "divine excuse" that Christians have to dedicate everything to achieve. All we ever pay is $35 to Bob and we get boundless SLACK and so much else.
      Pamphlets #1 & 2
      Your Own Personal 8x11 suitable-for-framing DOBBSHEAD
      Official Dobbshead/Church Logo Metal Pin
      Dobbshead Sticker, Bumper Sticker
      The SubGenius Pledge
      The Divine Excuse (signed by "Bob"!)
      (WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS CHARGE ALL WORLDLY GOODS FOR!!!)
      Doktorate of Forbidden Sciences
      (be a Doktor INSTANTLY. Incredible, sinister super-miniaturized fine print details all the scores of Church Ranks and Titles from which YOU can CHOOSE. Signed by... "Bob")
      Propaganda flyers to copy, Stickers
      Wallet sized, SubGenius MINISTER'S CARD
      (Without that card you have NO HOPE on July 5th!!!)
      Minister's Ordination papers and instructions.
      The STARK FIST of Removal online / SCRUBGENIUS secret forum
      (they're full of rants, art, Prescriptures, doctrine, charts, filth, comics, reviews and CHURCH NEWS & CONTACTS)

      Plus we are the ONE TRUE flying saucer RELIGION. With that in mind you can rest assured that $cientology is just a secret money making scam. We make no attempt to conceal anything!

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    98. Re:First Thetan! by rickshaf · · Score: 1

      I'd be very happy if governments got out of the business of recognizing religion. Let ALL religious organizations compete in the marketplace with no government recognition or support whatsoever!

    99. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ron Paul has spoken at a bunch of their functions, actually.

    100. Re:First Thetan! by tolkienfan · · Score: 1

      It's a believers choice, except that they teach that it's more or less a sin not to tithe 10%...
      Still... Scientology is worse.

    101. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Clear now? I think you owe me an apology for the conclusion you jumped to."

      I don't owe you squat. I didn't "jump" to any conclusions, I responded to your actual statements.

      The IRS doesn't have the power to "rule" that a group is a church or religion. The United States Supreme Court has ruled that even IT does not have the power to rule whether something is a legitimate religion. (If you don't believe that, look up the court cases having to do with the Universal Life Church.)

      The only thing the IRS can do, is determine whether a church meets Federal (extremely broad) guidelines for being tax-exempt. That is NOT the same thing as deciding whether it is a religion.

      The fact is, you just don't know how this all works. Look it up.

      If you want some factual information about Scientology vs the IRS, you can find a lot of it HERE.

    102. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disliked the use of 'church' for another reason. That is, I don't see a difference between Christianity & Scientology. Both are about believing in magic men in the sky.

      Don't see a difference! There are huge differences. If you can't see it your as blind as Scientology is!

    103. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Ahem... small enough to fit in a hat is not "big".

    104. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Christian doctrine is about making humans more empathetic and forgiving (do unto others as you would have them do unto you).

      Which is exactly why we had the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisitions and the Witch burnings.

    105. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I'd be very happy if governments got out of the business of recognizing religion. Let ALL religious organizations compete in the marketplace with no government recognition or support whatsoever!"

      Unlike most governments, the US government, according to SCOTUS, *is not* in the business of deciding what constitutes a religion. That is what many people here have been complaining about. But they fail to see the danger (which we were firmly warned about by our Founders) that would result if that were changed.

      The only thing the government has the power to decide is whether it is a "for profit" institution or a "non profit" institution.

      End of story.

    106. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Funny

      "You mean I can't increase my Penis size? After I sent all that money for a 'WangRack'! I even upgraded the wieghts to 10kilos."

      10 kilos? You could always moonlight as a swing at the neighborhood children's park.

      Uh.... wait. Cancel that. Probably not a good idea.

    107. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "There wasn't an income tax code for approximately the first 150 years of the country, so the reasoning given doesn't hold water."

      That's fine, because it isn't "reasoning", it's history. Look up the historical documents that discussed this matter when the Constitution was being drawn up, and later waiting to be ratified. There were very energetic debates about the subject.

    108. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      You are trying to make some kind of valid argument here?

      Personal attacks will be met with a like response. You really don't want to go there.

    109. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "A cult is just "a system of religious veneration." Or "a system of religious beliefs and ritual." We today think of it as "believing in something bizarre," but it's not. The third given definition by M-W is "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious." But that's not in conjunction in 1, it's just another way it's used. Christianity is a cult. Whether you think that's derogatory or not is your own personal opinion. A cult is not necessarily something bad or wrong and does not necessarily mean you believe in something bizarre."

      Technically you are correct, and I am guilty of using the a modern dictionary definition, which describes popular usage, not technical accuracy.

    110. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you need to have a pretty big head to be able to pull the wool over so many people's eyes to start a "religion" or "cult". Pretty big stones too. No wonder they call Missouri the "show me state"... they didn't buy his shite there (or around Alton Ill. either). Matter of fact he was shot dead trying to escape from a jail in Kansas City. Not sure if it was on the east or west side of the river though.

    111. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I think you need to have a pretty big head to be able to pull the wool over so many people's eyes to start a "religion" or "cult". Pretty big stones too."

      Haha. That's one way of looking at it. But even then, look at what Moses was supposed to have done. Maybe it's all relative, but I argue that Moses still had the bigger stones.

    112. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. You are wrong and the parent is right. The parent knows his history, but your argument smacks of conspiracy sprinkled with a snippets of historical factoids. Moreover the absence of an income tax code back then does not invalidate the parent's argument. We didn't tax church income back then because we didn't tax any income back then. We don't tax church income now because of the principle of separation of church and state.

    113. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One does not have to read the founding fathers ideas to reason that they couldn't want churches to be tax exempt when there was no tax in the first place. They did believe in a separation of church and state, but the documentation shows that their idea was very different than today's concept and probably the found father's notion of separation of church and state would be declared unconstitutional using today's standards.

    114. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do tongues-of-fire make good sandwiches or should we wait for the stakes?

    115. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      No, I'm suggesting you misread and misinterpereted it - or are pretending to do so, just like you misread that abstract about debris ending up just like thermite in our previous discussion.

    116. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1
      You wrote quite a good point above:

      The United States Supreme Court has ruled that even IT does not have the power to rule whether something is a legitimate religion.

      However, a few comments above you've got this statement I've been disagreeing with all along:

      NO, this is precisely the point you aren't getting. By law, they ARE a religion

      How do these two things go together? Who made the legal ruling that Scientology is a religion if the United States Supreme Court can't do it?

      Back to my original point. We know who this gang are and their rise has been very well documented. We don't have to pretend they are what their scam says they are just as we don't have to pretend that a naturopath is a cardiologist.
      While a discussion of the definition of religeon may be interesting, with respect I think this is the wrong place for it because, myself included, nobody here really has anywhere near the clue that I could get from talking to a Jesuit or theological academic (neither of which are going to shift definitions of words mid-stream to gain some pointless debating advantage) for thirty seconds.
      It's irrelevant anyway because it's just cover for an obvious scan. Xenu was a villian in a popular A.E. van Vogt short story FFS and vast amounts of other CoS material was ripped directly out of the 1955 Urantia book.
      You've fallen for the obvious trap which attempts to lend legitimacy to this gang. They can pretend an attack on them is an attack on non-mainstream religeon, which gets the Mormons on side, with the odder Pentacostal snake-squeezers that hate educated clergy not far behind. That gets a lot of political muscle on their side because many of the non-mainstream religeons are not keen on the seperation of church and state so put a lot of effort and their flock's cash into gaining political influence.

    117. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The only thing the IRS can do, is determine whether a church meets Federal (extremely broad) guidelines for being tax-exempt. That is NOT the same thing as deciding whether it is a religion.

      That's a point I've been trying to make. Scientologists pretend that by being tax-exempt that officially makes them a legitimate religeon in the eyes of the US government. One of them told me that and it appears to be directly from their propaganda.

    118. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "How do these two things go together? Who made the legal ruling that Scientology is a religion if the United States Supreme Court can't do it?"

      Repeat: THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE "RULED" BY ANYBODY TO BE A RELIGION, IN ORDER TO BE ONE IN THE UNITED STATES!

      And I also repeat: this is the fundamental thing that you are not understanding.

      Look. I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm trying to explain. There is a legal difference -- and a very big one -- between a religion and a Church.

      A "church" is an institution that practices or teaches religion. A church can be for-profit or non-profit. If it is non-profit, then it is also non-taxable.

      For-profit institutions, in the past, were often not considered "churches" by the IRS, and were therefore taxed. But the Supreme Court decision in regard to whether the Universal Life Church could call itself and be tax-exempt, because the IRS did not feel it qualified for 502(c)(3) exemption. See this IRS document which states on page 4 exactly what I have already told you: "In fact, the Supreme Court has ruled that government has no authority to pass on the legitimacy of a religious belief or to define permissible religious belief."

      So... it is your ACTIONS, whether or not they be criminal, and in some cases your profit motive, in which case you might not be a 501(c)(3) eligible Church, that determine whether you are prosecutable or taxable.

      But NONE of that has ANYTHING to do with whether you are (or are a member of) any particular religion.

    119. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Please see my previous reply. Your Scientologist acquaintence, and you, are both mistaken.

      To also clarify an earlier statement I made, this is what I meant when I wrote that I felt you were conflating to very different things. The US government has some power to regulate whether they are a tax-exempt CHURCH. But it has no power at all, by its own admission at the highest levels, to decide what is a RELIGION.

      And that, I think, is how we ended up misunderstanding one another.

    120. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      " No, I'm suggesting you misread and misinterpereted it - or are pretending to do so, just like you misread that abstract about debris ending up just like thermite in our previous discussion."

      I didn't misread it. Obviously you never actually looked at the EVIDENCE about the thermite, or examined the paper. All you did was insult the source. That's not valid arguing.

      You weren't in the debate club in school, were you? You have trouble formulating genuine, valid arguments, then claim you have "won" using arguments that would have gotten you kicked out of any genuine debate.

    121. Re:First Thetan! by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Yeah, considering he needed both arms to carry them. ;)

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    122. Re:First Thetan! by ancienthart · · Score: 1
      I used to be Roman Catholic, now I'm a "dunno, let's wait and see".
      However, despite my lack of interest in Christianity, your statements seem to me, to be pretty hyperbolic. There are some big differences between Christianity and Scientology:
      • -Christian churches for the most part don't telll you to disown or harm your non-believer friends or relatives,
      • -they (mostly) encourage members to help the community and
      • -it's actually pretty easy to leave a Christian church group.
    123. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      And that, I think, is how we ended up misunderstanding one another.

      There's no misunderstanding on my side. You are the one that jumped in with extra baggage when I suggested that this gang is not a church.

    124. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Come on now - you're written: "By law, they ARE a religion", which is why I asked for where the legal ruling is - you said it was a law after all. How is it "by law" when there is not one? Don't try to twist my words to pretend I meant anything else, and if you think I'm twisting your words then please use different ones that mean what you are trying to communicate.
      I was under the impression that they are not legally considered a religeon anywhere, but if you can find an example that shows I am wrong please go ahead.

      A "church" is an institution that practices or teaches religion

      Hence it is not a church because this highly organised criminal gang is not accepted as a religion. I can't understand why I can't get that point across. If you disagree, fine, say you disagree, but please don't pretend instead that I'm trying to say something different to what I am writing.

    125. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      All you did was insult the source.

      I did not. I read it and found it did not say what you implied it did, but then I've got the advantage over you of a career in Engineering and Materials Science and a first exposure to thermite in 1985. I found it an interesting paper that I think is going to influence changes to building design if it hasn't already.

      then claim you have "won"

      Either you have mixed me up with someone else or are building a strawman, because I've never made that claim here and I'm not playing a pointless, childish debate game.

    126. Re:First Thetan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taxing the churches isn't the answer. The answer is taxing the members. Right now people can make "charitable" contributions to churches and write them off on their taxes. That means the rest of us taxpayers are subsidizing their so-called "charity". I for one would rather not pay higher taxes because Tom Cruise wants to give a lot of money to his church.

    127. Re:First Thetan! by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      Do they now? I would hereby invite the church of scientology to threaten me since i know the actual truth about the universe is contained in a novel by Zelazny, not that other guy, see , true prophets never cash in on what they do, that might be a hint.
      so, i hereby ask the followers of scientology to start donating half their monthly income to my personal bank account. I shall then grant them the truth and salvation
      i wonder if any numbnut will take the time to threaten me on this. Feel free to try

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
    128. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Come on now - you're written: "By law, they ARE a religion", which is why I asked for where the legal ruling is - you said it was a law after all."

      Good Grid, you have a comprehension problem. It's not on my end... nobody else has seemed to have trouble understanding this.

      Look at the statement by the Supreme Court above. A religion is a religion because its members say it is. No other "ruling" by any authority is necessary (or even possible) in the U.S. I have stated that at least 3 times now, in different ways, and if you still refuse to understand it, stop blaming me.

      "Hence it is not a church because this highly organised criminal gang is not accepted as a religion."

      But they ARE accepted as a religion... in the United States. They ALMOST were not accepted as a Church, but they somehow managed to just barely get past that little obstacle. See the link I posted previously about Scientology vs the IRS.

    129. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "There's no misunderstanding on my side."

      Yes, there most definitely *IS* a misunderstanding on your side. I have had this same discussion with lots of other people and NONE of them have ever had such a problem understanding it as you have demonstrated.

    130. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "I did not. I read it and found it did not say what you implied it did, but then I've got the advantage over you of a career in Engineering and Materials Science and a first exposure to thermite in 1985."

      "Did not say what I implied it did"??? Are you sure you are referring to the same paper that I was? It not only DOES say what I implied it did, I challenge you to give me specifics about how you are pretending to refute it.

      Now, it is possible that I did confuse you with someone else, but there was someone who argued with me about the veracity of the evidence based merely on the fact that Alex Jones had (later in the process) become involved in publicizing the evidence. That was nothing more than ad hominem and I give it no respect. I am not a fan of Alex Jones, nevertheless, shooting the messenger is not a valid scientific argument.

      There is other evidence that thermitic materials were found in the debris: FEMA's own ("Building Performance Study" (see Appendix C) suggests as much, including micrographic evidence.

      And it must be noted that "nano-thermite", even according to Wikipedia, has properties that are very different from conventional thermite. That was part of the point I was making.

    131. Re:First Thetan! by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "many skeptics are too superstitious about spiritual issues (or as hung up on high-profile crazy churches as many people are on sensational television) to think much about that."

      What about the HIGHEST-profile "traditional" Church (the largest Christian sect in the world) which has paid out more than a BILLION dollars (and counting) worldwide in (ongoing) abuse hush money/settlements? That Church only investigates (some of) its own under extreme pressure.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/11/catholic-church-sexual-abuse-scandal_n_1508668.html

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10407559

      http://www.afrik-news.com/article17549.html

      There are MANY more!

      Charity buys power. Pablo Escobar understood that just as superstitonists understand that.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    132. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Where does it say in the paper that thermite was planted?
      What it does say is that a building made from the same components as thermite (aluminium and iron in the form of steel) can fail in a way that produces something that is effectively thermite made from finely ground powder in terms of fire risk. That is on top of what we already know about fires in aluminium structures (eg. HMS Sheffield). The interesting facts in that paper are very different to your fantasy.
      I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm dismissing the twisted chinese whispers that are only very loosely based on the message.

    133. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      A religion is a religion because its members say it is

      You should have put it that way in the first place intead of misleading me with the "by law" rubbish. Now I know that it's just simple relativism (where the opinion of anyone at all is equally valid) instead of English. If you take that line then they can say it is but I disagree violently and think that is an utterly stupid definition open to all kinds of abuse (such as the CoS themselves), but at least I understand where you are coming from.
      IMHO relativism is just a way to confuse people and a barrier to communication unless people state their own private definitions of words up front.

      In case it wasn't clear, I disagree with your premise "A religion is a religion because its members say it is", so that's why I think the quotes around "church" are valid. Now that you've got my reason and I understand where you are coming from we can just agree to disagree.

    134. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      OK, I admit there is now - if you depart from English and use different definitions of words without telling me how the hell am I going to understand!
      Please be more honest up front next time.

    135. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Where does it say in the paper that thermite was planted?"

      I didn't claim that it was "planted", I merely stated that the paper said it was present. Don't try to put words in my mouth.

      What it does say is that a building made from the same components as thermite (aluminium and iron in the form of steel) can fail in a way that produces something that is effectively thermite made from finely ground powder in terms of fire risk.

      Either you did not actually read the sources I gave you, or you're just making shit up. For just one example of many: does the steel from the building normally contain sulfur in the form and quantities found? No, it does not.

      And again, you are failing to account for the fact that "nano-thermite" has properties quite different from "normal" thermite.

      "I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm dismissing the twisted chinese whispers that are only very loosely based on the message."

      From your comments here, I don't even think you read the "message".

      I repeat: if you can refute anything the paper actually says, then have at it. And be specific. Until then, you're just blowing smoke. And that's putting it as politely as I can.

    136. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      does the steel from the building normally contain sulfur in the form and quantities found

      Actually US construction steel from the time did due to the high sulphur content of most US coal and the expense required to remove it from the molten iron before it becomes steel. These days magnesium is used to remove it.

      And again, you are failing to account for the fact that "nano-thermite" has properties quite different from "normal" thermite.

      No. I'm highly aware of the fire risk of very finely divided metal powder due to having worked with metal powder in furnaces. I did not fail to take that into account.

      I didn't claim that it was "planted"

      I recall something different and was replying with that in mind. What exactly are you claiming then? I'm happy with the paper but I recall your claims didn't match what the paper said.

    137. Re:First Thetan! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Actually US construction steel from the time did due to the high sulphur content of most US coal and the expense required to remove it from the molten iron before it becomes steel. These days magnesium is used to remove it."

      Then why does FEMA's paper call it anomalous?

      I recall something different and was replying with that in mind. What exactly are you claiming then? I'm happy with the paper but I recall your claims didn't match what the paper said.

      The only thing that *I* recall claiming was there was strong evidence that there was high-tech thermite in the debris.

    138. Re:First Thetan! by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      There are actually plenty of evangelical churches that consider the tithe to be mandatory for membership. A friend of mine was a pastor in one such (he's an atheist now).

      He was probably an atheist while he was a pastor as well. Your parenthetical would probably more accurately be "(he's more ethical now)".

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    139. Re:First Thetan! by khayman80 · · Score: 1

      I recall you claiming that it works in the conspiracy theorists' favor:

      The Towers were actually designed to withstand a direct hit by a 727... the largest common aircraft at the time of their design.

      Why they didn't is a matter of speculation for government-contracted (of course!) engineers and conspiracy theorists.

      One thing working in the conspiracy theorists' favor is the fact (discovered by reputable scientists with expertise in the subject and no conflict of interest, and independently verified) that the dust from the buildings contained bits of high-tech thermite. Not your everyday garage variety, either, but real high-tech stuff that is usually only available to government and military.

      In fact, you've previously repeated many other 9/11 Truther conspiracy theories, at great length.

    140. Re:First Thetan! by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      He didn't start as a pastor there - like many cults, this one had a pyramid-like system where you rose through the ranks as you brought more people (and money) in.

    141. Re:First Thetan! by dbIII · · Score: 1

      The only thing that *I* recall claiming was there was strong evidence that there was high-tech thermite in the debris

      Which is not something the paper says or supports any more than any claims that ground up human remains were placed on the site before the towers fell. The buildings collapsed into dust! Guess what thermite is - metal dust! More specificly, aluminium and iron dust, which is what the buildings were made from, with a whole lot of flammable organic material such as paper dust mixed in. I find your claim that thermite was in the building in very bad taste and it is nowhere near supported by what you claim is evidence for it. Give up on the "high tech", sub-micron (or "nano-scale") metal powders have been investigated for a long time before I first did anything with them in the late 1980s.
      I've read that paper, but the difference here is I do not pretend to misunderstand it for the sake of some paranoid conspiracy theory for those that didn't think Bin Laden's conspiracy wasn't big enough. This childish idea that the US government can only be hurt by itself should have been abandoned after looking at those CoS vs IRS examples on that site you linked above (which I've visted a few times before over the years).

    142. Re:First Thetan! by electrons_are_brave · · Score: 1

      ... Christianity doesn't require you to pay money before they will reveal all of the church doctrines...

      True, but the government does require that I pay money to fund Christian church's tax-free status. And I don't even want the doctrines.

  2. Standard Scientology practice by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Call all your critics liars (and wife-beaters and child molesters if possible), send private detectives and Sea Org types to follow and harass them, sue them and anyone who supports them, cry religious persecution to the cops and govt officials, rinse, wash, repeat...

    Read all about it, and more.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Kenja · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Name one other "religion" that charges you to read the "bible" and forbids you to tell anyone what they teach under pain of law suite.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    2. Re:Standard Scientology practice by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Funny

      Call all your critics liars (and wife-beaters and child molesters if possible), send private detectives and Sea Org types to follow and harass them, sue them and anyone who supports them, cry religious persecution to the cops and govt officials, rinse, wash, repeat...

      Read all about it, and more.

      They remind me of a saying -- Their organization is so ridiculous that no matter how hard you tried you just couldn't make something like that up.

      Can't say I've met any, but I have met some real wackos in my life and I suppose if people will believe in 5 billion years ago some aliens put a bunch of people in a volcano that didn't exist yet, to watch a movie and then blew them up, how are you ever going to get them to see any sense?

      Meanwhile, it's Friday and me and my Thetans are going to go out and party. (c: Just a sec .. someone at the door

      NO CARRIER

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    3. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, just Science!

    4. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Name one other "religion" that charges you to read the "bible" and forbids you to tell anyone what they teach under pain of law suite.

      The closest I can think of is Pythonism which typically utilises a comfy chair to punish aspostacy but in extreme cases may apply an entire three piece suite.

    5. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Teun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Please don't use the words religion and scientology in the same article.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    6. Re:Standard Scientology practice by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      Name one other "religion" that charges you to read the "bible" and forbids you to tell anyone what they teach under pain of law suite.

      While they may harass and sue you, they don't often go with the "Kill the Infidels" if you say something nasty about their Ronnie or Tommy.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    7. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would have thought that they would ENCOURAGE reading their holy works to the world, so as to spread the word and help recruit new members - hence all the parables and metaphors in the Old/New Testament.

    8. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is false. They have been indicated in a number of murders and convenience suicides of people who speak out about either, or the Church itself.

      They are, in short, very much like extremist Muslims, except without the benefit of their religion having been created far enough back that quasi-rational people might give it the benefit of the doubt as being legitimate.

      It also helps that Islam doesn't have actual documents with its founders talking about making a fake religion to bilk people out of their money.

    9. Re:Standard Scientology practice by PlastikMissle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why? They are both based on belief of the metaphysical and the scientifically un-provable.

    10. Re:Standard Scientology practice by MrEricSir · · Score: 1

      Name one other "religion" that charges you to read the "bible" and forbids you to tell anyone what they teach under pain of law suite.

      Church of the SubGenius. (And yes, I know they won't really sue you.)

      --
      There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    11. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Kenja · · Score: 2

      Nope, 35$ to read their book. http://www.amazon.com/Dianetics-Modern-Science-Mental-Health-3/dp/1403155429 and of course if you actually join the church it costs thousands to hundreds of thousands to advance in it.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    12. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Larryish · · Score: 4, Informative

      From the Wikipedia link:

      Hubbard detailed his rules for attacking critics in a number of policy letters including one often quoted by critics as "the Fair Game policy." This allowed that those who had been declared enemies of the Church, called "suppressive persons" or simply "SP," "May be deprived of property or injured by any means...May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." (taken from HCOPL Oct. 18, 1967 Issue IV, Penalties for Lower Conditions )

      Sounds kind of Masonic.

      All they need to throw in is "Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter-accusations." and Hiram would give them all a great big hug-from-behind.

    13. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Teun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's religion in general, in contrast scientology is a poorly cloaked commercial scam.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    14. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Look. Up there, in comment 40570317 at 06:18PM, where an AC posted:

      Sounds just like what "climate scientists" are doing to scientific skeptics.

      And then look up there, at comment 40570443, at 6:28PM, where another AC posts as soon as the 10-minute window is up:

      I really hope that everyone who comments here, do not follow any other (moronic) religion?... Because if you do, you are just as utterly underdeveloped as the rest of them.

      Hello, Scilon operative! Welcome to the Internet. (Don't worry, we won't bite. In fact, when you finally blow, we'll be here to help.)

      The internet is a big place, with millions of other threads for Theists-vs-Atheists, and Global Warming-vs-Deniers, and Obama vs. Romney, or whatever you'll be posting in your next round. But this isn't one of those threads. This is a thread about the abuses your organization has been conducting against free discourse on the 'net for the past 20 years.

      And no self-respecting theist, atheist, environmentalist, nor climate change skeptic, will fall for this classic attempt to threadjack the discussion. (Next time, try Apple vs. Microsoft, or emacs vs. vi. You'll still fail, but you'll provide us with much more amusement on your way down.)

      "Standard Scientology Practice" indeed.

    15. Re:Standard Scientology practice by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Well, it's a good thing that nothing exists that isn't scientifically un-provable, then...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    16. Re:Standard Scientology practice by XCDBFPL · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not true. For only $400 I've learned frost trap and my next spell for $800 will be how to handle car wrecks.

    17. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Call all your critics liars (and wife-beaters and child molesters if possible), send private detectives and Sea Org types to follow and harass them, sue them and anyone who supports them, cry religious persecution to the cops and govt officials, rinse, wash, repeat...

      Read all about it, and more.

      Are you talking about scientology or the upcoming US presidential campaign?

    18. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's religion in general, Scientology just ups the ante.

    19. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm the first anon above, and I have no idea what your post is about.

      (I'm a very self-respecting climate skeptic though)

    20. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Last I checked Scientology is still considered a cult, and is defined as a cult in numerous countries not just the US. Cults are not new, and of course not restricted to Scientology, but they are always called cults. This is true even when the cult calls themselves religion, as an extremely high percentage of cults do.

      If you really believe what you said, I would recommend seeking psychological consultation since it's a rather psychopathic statement.

      I may be incorrect about the current classification as a cult for Scientology, I'm not going to bother checking. If I am incorrect, you can always look at documentation to see how long they were classified as a cult. It's not a secret, but much of the CIA and FBI documentation regarding investigating them is classified.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    21. Re:Standard Scientology practice by PlastikMissle · · Score: 2

      I would argue that many religions scam their followers in one way or another. Religions have been monetized before and used as tools to promote politics.
      The fact remains that (despite the intentions of the leadership), avid followers of Scientology don't think that they are scammed, and truly believe in what they are told, just like other avid believers of other religions.

    22. Re:Standard Scientology practice by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      It's called paper terrorism, and it's a bullshit tactic that needs to be stopped.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    23. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      They are, in short, very much like extremist Muslims, except without the benefit of their religion having been created far enough back that quasi-rational people might give it the benefit of the doubt as being legitimate.

      This.

      Scientology's been caught blackmailing politicians, breaking into government offices to steal records, forging papers used to indict and jail people, and sent in infiltrators incredibly deep in near critics to try to break them, dig up dirt, or even get them to commit suicide. They've been caught breaking into doctors' offices for private medical records, breaking into psychiatrists' offices for anything they can find against their critics or targets.

      This doesn't even deserve to be called a cult. Scientology is nothing but a mafia, a criminal enterprise. This is the Cult of Scientology in action, how they really operate. The BBC did an absolutely great documentary on how they still operate in 2010.

    24. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hey, it's an exclusive club. I didn't think I'd ever find anyone with the same belief as me. I don't believe in climate either.

    25. Re:Standard Scientology practice by PlastikMissle · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how you got psychopathic from my statement. I'm an atheist and as such I see that the core belief tenants of Scientology are no less ridiculous than those of other religions. Scientology is to Judeo-Christianity is as pulp scifi is to fantasy, stylistically different but equally unlikely.

      So some governments have classified them as a cult. So what? Christianity was classified as a cult once upon a time as well. All religions that I'm aware of start off as small cults. True, the leadership of Scientology have done some very detestable things, but what religion isn't guilty of this at some point of its history?

    26. Re:Standard Scientology practice by roc97007 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Their organization is so ridiculous that no matter how hard you tried you just couldn't make something like that up.

      ...you just couldn't make something like that up, a second time.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    27. Re:Standard Scientology practice by SlippyToad · · Score: 1

      I'm a very self-respecting climate skeptic

      How can you respect yourself when you're nothing but a cheap whore for big oil?

      --
      One day I feel I'm ahead of the wheel / the next it's rolling over me / I can get back on / I can get back on
    28. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 2

      You've never tried to implement the Bluetooth speck.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    29. Re:Standard Scientology practice by amicusNYCL · · Score: 2

      Can't say I've met any

      I used to work with a member. I guess he was a nice enough guy, a little bit awkward though. The boss took the entire company out to a seafood restaurant for the company's anniversary celebration. He ordered a ton of appetizers and things like that and let people know they could order other things if they wanted them. So the scientologist orders 2 lobster dinners. We still tell that story to newbies (he doesn't work here any more...)

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    30. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the definitions of a cult, rather than a religion, is that their holy books aren't available to the public.

    31. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you respect yourself when you're a cheap whore?

    32. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

      The moral bankruptcy of all religions does not eclipse the evil of Scientology, which is the current topic. Your statement is not false, but irrelevant to the discussion and a fairly transparent attempt to deflect it, similar to the legions blurting "But Islam" to all criticisms of Christianity, or "But Christianity" to all criticisms of Islam.

    33. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm the first anon above, and I have no idea what your post is about.

      (I'm a very self-respecting climate skeptic though)

      "Then why'dja bring up climate change in a thread about Scilons?" :)

      If I mistook you for one, please accept my apologies.

      Those of us who've been in the trenches have seen this before. Basically, when something comes up that's embarassing to the cult, the cult tries to make it about anything other than the topic at hand. The easiest way to accomplish this is for the Scilon to pick a similar inflammatory topic, about which many people hold sincere and impassioned beliefs, and to sit back and munch on popcorn as both sides of the (climate change | abortion | religion-vs-atheism | emacs-vs-vi | mac-vs-PC ) debate jump in on their respective sides and tear each other apart. (There's a guy a few posts down who tried to drag Israel-vs-Palestine into it, and for bonus points, he mentioned abortion, LOL!)

      As long as everyone's talking about that, nobody's talking about the cult, and the cult wins.

      To give a non-Scilon-related (and therefore off-topic!) example, governments use the same technique; the PRC has the 50 Cent Party, Russia has Web Brigades, and I'm sure our adversaries have their own word for the web equivalent of VOA. But I'm not interested in talking about those. At least not today.

      This thread is about how Scientology is enlisting its followers to report discussion of its practices as "off-topic" and/or "abuse" in order to sway the perception of Scientology on discussion forums. Not about the practices of other groups, however repugnant.

    34. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Name one other "religion" that charges you to read the "bible" and forbids you to tell anyone what they teach under pain of law suite.

      Rosicrucianism. http://www.amorc.org/ I've looked into it before. All materials belong to AMORC, cannot be photocopied for any reason, must be rented, and sent back when finished.

    35. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Mal-2 · · Score: 5, Informative

      While they may harass and sue you, they don't often go with the "Kill the Infidels" if you say something nasty about their Ronnie or Tommy.

      I suppose you've never heard of Auditing Process R2-45.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    36. Re:Standard Scientology practice by SternisheFan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The origin story I once read is that L. Ron Hubbard and a friend were at Hubbard's home one night getting drunk and talking together, Hubbard had already made money as a sci-fi writer by then. Hubbard say's to his friend, "I could start a new religion if I wanted to. It wouldn't be hard." His friend bets him $50 that he can't. Hubbard takes the bet, writes the book "Dianetics". Eventually Hubbard's friend paid him the fifty bucks.

    37. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kind of Masonic? What the fuck are you smoking?

    38. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Then I suppose you can tell us what happened to David Miscavige's wife, who's missing, and no one has seen since 2006.

    39. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A cult is merely a smaller religion.

    40. Re:Standard Scientology practice by toutankh · · Score: 2

      Agreed, the distinction between cult and religion is highly subjective.
      Where I come from, there is a saying that a religion is simply a successful cult.

    41. Re:Standard Scientology practice by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Prove your God exists, now, and I'll grovel, recant, and kiss it's Noodly Appendage.

      Fantasy posed as truth but unsupported by evidence merits no respect.

      Neither do its proponents.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    42. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      Sounds just like what "climate scientists" are doing to scientific skeptics.

      Well yes, some of the more rabid climate scientists try to silence their critics... I guess we can call them Climascientologists... but they don't go nearly as far as Scientology does. They're not even in the same league, really.

      And although one prominent climate scientist has expressed his desire to physically assault a AGW-skeptical scientist, as far as I know nobody has actually used physical violence yet. Scientology on the other had long history of violence and abuse against its own members who fall out of line.

      It's just an unfortunate side of human nature, people tend to want to to shut people up who disagree with them. And beat em up. It takes civilized behavior to not do it.

    43. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mom has stopped caring, at least.

    44. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm an atheist too, but come on, Scientology is far worse than religions.

      In religions, people belive in fairy tales.

      In Scientology, a scammer fiction writer sat around with bunch of friends sat around and devised a scheme to fleece people out of money.

      At least the people who belive in the fairy tale will freely tell others all about their fairy tale. Scientologysts want to see the $$$ before you get any details.

      Religions do bad thing because that's the unfortunate result of basing actions things on belief rather than evidence. Scientology deliberatly tries to do the bad things.

      One person has made a dumb mistake, the other is fucking evil.

    45. Re:Standard Scientology practice by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's with the need for skeptics to equate all religion with Scientology in every article about the CoS?

      The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology. If an atheist cannot see the stark differences in nature and degree, then he is blinded by a dogmatic opposition towards faith.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    46. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Sulphur · · Score: 4, Funny

      You've never tried to implement the Bluetooth speck.

      Its not a speck. It is the tooth, the whole tooth, and nothing but the tooth.

    47. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a very self-respecting climate skeptic

      How can you respect yourself when you're nothing but a cheap whore for big oil?

      Well done, sir. Thank you so much for your contribution to the discussion! It is clear to me that anyone who has a different opinion than you is just a "whore" of big oil (or insert any other boogie man).

    48. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      Sounds kind of Masonic.

      Uh, what? Since when have the Masons been going around doing stuff like that?

      I mean, i suppose i have to admit that George Washington and his fellow Masons did deprive Great Britain of a little property (100 million acres or so) and destroy a few people (about 50,000 of them) but i don't think that's quite the same thing.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    49. Re:Standard Scientology practice by dave420 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Country clubs have more power than the Freemasons. Stop reading conspiracy bullshit.

    50. Re:Standard Scientology practice by LordLucless · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not exactly the same, but pre-reformation Catholicism almost fits the bill. They just had all their texts in latin, and forbid translating it into any language the common people knew. The only people who had the time or opportunity to learn latin were the priests, so the reading and interpretation of their holy texts was exclusively the domain of the clergy. They didn't have law suits back then, but they did issue legal bans against the translations.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    51. Re:Standard Scientology practice by LordLucless · · Score: 2

      What's metaphysical and scientifically un-provable about "if I make up a religion, I can make me lots of money"?

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    52. Re:Standard Scientology practice by pitchpipe · · Score: 1

      Please don't use the words religion and scientology in the same article.

      Yeah, because the difference is that one was a bunch of jibberish written by some crazy asshole that a bunch of people believe, and the other is Scientology.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    53. Re:Standard Scientology practice by WhitePanther5000 · · Score: 1

      Well, it's a good thing that nothing exists that isn't scientifically un-provable, then...

      You realize that statement makes no sense, right? Simplifying the double negative:
      "Well, it's a good thing that nothing exists that is scientifically provable, then..."

    54. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 0

      If an atheist cannot see the stark differences in nature and degree, then he is blinded by a dogmatic opposition towards faith.

      True. Unfortunately, most atheists on /. are exactly as you describe.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    55. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as the collection of money is concerned, the only difference between Scientology and mainstream protestant church I attended as a child was that the Christians guilted you into giving money under the auspices of tithing rather than directly requiring it up front. The end result is one and the same.

    56. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      First: the poster you replied to said jack shit about having a belief in religion. Second: most people who practice a religion are decent people trying to live good lives. They may well be misguided (which, you should remember before feeling morally superior, is something you can't prove), but even if they are, they deserve to be shown the same respect as any other human being. If you choose to ignore that, you have no place in a civilized society.

      Unfortunately, most atheists (or those who post in defense of atheism) on /. are such rabid zealots that they fall into that category.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    57. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, there are plenty of religions that don't share that level of abuse and corruption of Scientology. Just Scientology itself, the World's pre-eminent Christian church, and a rather large percentage of the World's Islamic official-religion states.

    58. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very well said, although I would have just left it at "extremists" rather than extremist Muslims. Extremists want to harm or destroy anything not like themselves, whether they're Muslims or Republicans or Vegans or animal rights activists.

    59. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Alien+Being · · Score: 1

      +1 unexpected

    60. Re:Standard Scientology practice by jbsquirrel · · Score: 1

      Please clarify: The difference between a fake religion and a real one.

    61. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The catholic church's well documented institutional suppression of child molestation claims and defence of its practitioners comes damned close.

    62. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well done, sir. Thank you so much for your contribution to the discussion! It is clear to me that anyone whose entire view of the world is based on lies is just a "whore" of big oil (or insert any other boogie man).

      Fixed that for you.

    63. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like the church took him for a nice Friday cleansing ritual, the 10 hour sauna with vitamins!

    64. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A "Real Religion" has control of at least one nation-state on the globe.

    65. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really don't know anything about Masonry, do you? No, you don't. Nor is there anything accessible on the internet. Don't prelude your completely valid and amusing comment about Scientology with a comment derived from conspiracy and irrational.

    66. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Take a look at a Scientology practice name R2-45.

    67. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Well played!

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    68. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All hail our benevolent dictator.

    69. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology.

      You mean like the Catholic Church's involvement with the Nazis? Or perhaps their repeated coverups of Priests sexually abusing young boys?

    70. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The rest is correct, but they did have law suits. Wouldn't help you against the Church, but the mechanisms existed in most of Europe.

    71. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha! 'Art of Living'. Another cult.

    72. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How does all of these tactics, including infiltration of government, not qualify as terrorism?

    73. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, I can walk into a church on Sunday and watch a service, and afterwards ask the priest some questions without having to pay $2000 to cleanse my soul/sins/thetans/chilli-sauce.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    74. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkstr1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am still amazed that a religion founded by a scifi author, where the premise amounts to a bunch of scifi stuff, has gained any credibility at all. It really makes me lose hope for the human race.

      --
      Fanboy Status: Apache Flex, C#, Eclipse, KDE, Pirate Party, Ron Paul, Slackware, Windows 7
    75. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Psychopathic defines the modern trends in atheism where it is frequently claimed that "Religion should be wiped off the face of the earth", and more recently "Philosophy should be wiped off the face of the earth". Maybe you are not one of "those" atheists, but your statement has a similar tone when declaring that Religions and cults are the same thing. Cults tend to cause great amounts of harm to people, often times leading to mental conditions that can never be repaired, suicides, rape and molestation, as well as the financial burdens placed on families and communities. Do you see how your correlation becomes dangerous? Cults are illegal, so of course a logical progression from your statement would be that Religion should be illegal. It's a single step progression in thought.

      Scientology is to Judeo-Christianity is as pulp scifi is to fantasy, stylistically different but equally unlikely

      No, they are not the same thing at all. Comparing Judea-Christian Religion to Scientology would be similar to a person of Theology claiming an atheist and satanist are the same. The core belief is not even close, so how would one draw a conclusion that they are the same other than either bias or ignorance?

      Since you at least pretend to have knowledge I'll go with the bias answer. I stand by my original statement and recommend consultation with a professional since your state of mind can easily progress to more dangerous conditions without treatment.

      One other quick point: I am not a fan of what some Religions do, or what many have done in the past. At the same time, there is no harm in a person trying to live a Judea-Christian life style. 1. If you only see Radicals, you need to look outside of what corporate controlled media has been telling you. The world is full of good people that try to do good things. Religion tends to build communities and elevate moral values in those communities (before you say "but" read the sentence I intentionally numbered "1". The same thing can not be said for atheism, cults, or satanic worship. Check history, read some independent papers, and maybe even investigate the moral break down in America over the last 30 years.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    76. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, the Christians did not require any money from you in order to gain further enlightenment.

    77. Re:Standard Scientology practice by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Damn, meant to reply to Kenja, not the humorous coward.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    78. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkstr1 · · Score: 1

      +1 Touché.

      --
      Fanboy Status: Apache Flex, C#, Eclipse, KDE, Pirate Party, Ron Paul, Slackware, Windows 7
    79. Re:Standard Scientology practice by fermion · · Score: 1
      I would say they are like every other religion, except that they want the cash, instead of using brainwashing and coercion.

      The current scam in mainstream evangelical faith is 'prosperity ministry'. You give to the church, and you will be rewarded. The bible does not say this. The bible says you have faith and you worship and that is your job. A person giving a penny and a person giving a million dollars is the same in they eyes of the almighty. You can choose to be secular and materialistic, but that has nothing to do with worship.

      But, unfortunately, building these huge structures, taking you tithes off taxes and then claiming you tithe, using the money to push agendas of hate and trying to raise yourself to the level of the almight, is too much in all religions. We can take this back to the good Samaritan. Why do we call this person the good Samaritan? Because Samaritans, a specific branch of the Abrahamic Religions, were considered to be evil, much life Islam, people of darker skin color, and people with differing marriage practice are now considered to be the end of civilization. So we had the good Samaritan, just like the hard working mexican.

      So the reason we have to deal with all this crap with Scientology is because they rightly claim the rights of every religion. The right to discriminate. The right to take money with no tangible return. The right to say things that are objectively not true while claiming in writing that they are. These behaviors are unacceptable in all other civilized society.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    80. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Good link, I haven't seen that wiki page before.

      73 de w7com

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    81. Re:Standard Scientology practice by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      In many religious the clergy is unpaid. Be wary of churches where the clergy is paid.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    82. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Since you said "priest" I guess you are talking the Roman Catholic Church (tm). Know that they are, and have been, playing the long game. It's worked out for them, They have their own country.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    83. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Still waiting for minicom vs tip flame war.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    84. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Logical proof of a creator is relatively easy, of course you have to look through the cloud of bullshit that has been thrown in your face over the last 20-30 years. The Philosophical arguments for a creator are just as valid now as when originally proposed. Arguments such as "The Uncaused Cause (Aristotle)" are well thought out, and Science has done nothing to solve that question. Of course most atheists will say "no-uh uh" and end the debate.

      If you are truly interested, I have some thoughts on the subject (actually quite a few). Let me know and I'll give you the links. It's important to note that I don't get in to any specific Theology, but discuss creator in a general sense. Theology is not relevant if you don't believe in a creator. I'm not going to tell you a specific Religion is right or wrong, that is between you and a Theologian.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    85. Re:Standard Scientology practice by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

      'tenets' please.

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    86. Re:Standard Scientology practice by ByronHope · · Score: 1

      They will still ask for money, Churches are businesses and whilst you will not get ejected for not donating, if you go regularly, there will be pressure and expectation for you to hand over money.

    87. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      All well and good, but what do you say about pico vs nano as rudimentary text editor?

      Check and mate!

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    88. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "death by lawsuit" is a bit unusual. The physical, mental, and fiscal abuse coupled with blackmail from the "auditing" records asking "what crimes have you committed" while hypnotized and attached to a polygraph, sent back to the main office, is a bit unusual too. And don't forget planting bomb threats (for which L. Ron's wife went to jail.)

      Take a good look at the Scientology "Baby Watch" used against anyone who has a :"breakdown". It killed Lisa McPherson, bound in a room, not allowed to communicate with anyone while she died of dehydration. (www.lisamcpherson.org).

      Unfortunately, this kind of abuse is not unheard of in cults, such as Moonies, Jim Jones cult, and Charles Manson's followers. It's actually interesting that former Scientologiests of the time have testified that they were told to destroy all evidence of Manson's membership in Scientology when his murders came to light.

    89. Re:Standard Scientology practice by f3rret · · Score: 1

      You are one of them aren't you?

      --
      Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
    90. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Citation?

      While many churches are pretty opulent, I've never been inside one and there aren't any like that within a hundred miles of where I currently live. I've attended five churches comprising three different flavors over the past 20 years, and I never got so much as a baleful stare when I couldn't afford to contribute... and at two of them, that lack of funds lasted several years. In two of them the pastor worked a second job to pay the bills and received little or no salary from the church. In all of them the balance remained just big enough to go a couple of months paying the rent and other bills if all income suddenly stopped.

      People give to churches voluntarily because of what they expect to accomplish with their money -- feed the hungry, house the homeless, send missionaries to the remote corners of the world to spread their message, whatever. Church finances are, by law, open books so we all know exactly how much the church staff is tucking away (hint: I could never live on that little!) and how much goes to charitable causes. Any nonstandard major expense like buying a new heater to replace the one that's 40 years old, the congregation gets together to vote on it.

      Yes, places that call themselves churches misuse their status beyond belief for selfish purposes or ugly causes (I'm lookin' at YOU, Phelps) but those are individuals acting on their own initiative, vs. corporate policy as defined by the CoS.

    91. Re:Standard Scientology practice by treeves · · Score: 1

      Would you object to someone using it thus: "Scientology (TM) is not really a religion." ?

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    92. Re:Standard Scientology practice by chrismcb · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They remind me of a saying -- Their organization is so ridiculous that no matter how hard you tried you just couldn't make something like that up.

      And yet someone did... Almost as if a science fiction author created a whole universe...

    93. Re:Standard Scientology practice by DeadManCoding · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So what I'm gathering from you is that the moral decline of the US is due to a lack of religious communities? I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you there, and point out Westboro as well as anti-abortion protesters. I will agree that there are a number of good people in the world attempting to good deeds, but there are more than enough idiots with "God Hates Fags" posters absolutely destroying our ability to communicate effectively. Yes, while some atheists detest religious organizations, there are a greater number that simply don't care. They just don't feel a need to believe in some arbitrary Judeo-Christian lifestyle.

      As an aside, I've seen plenty of Radicals around the world. In my opinion, the original Bill of Rights got things right the first time around. You believe in whatever invisible sky man you want, I'll take mine, and we'll go about our merry way. Blaming a decline of morals around a lack of religious communities, honestly, reeks of religious superiority. You take your sky man, and leave me alone. I'm a good enough person without religion, and I'll continue to be that way despite of your mongering for more religion.

      --
      "The only constant in the universe is change." - Unknown author
    94. Re:Standard Scientology practice by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      I am sorry? Whats wrong with ordering lobster dinners?

    95. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Scientology organization has already been found to be an exploitive cult in several major countries and stripped of any religious status.

      PS - They were also found guilty of inflatrating the IRS to find victims with money and many members were sent to prison but the ring leaders escaped US juristiction.

    96. Re:Standard Scientology practice by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      In all churches I've been to money is given entirely anonymously. No guilting is possible. You give as much as you desire and no one will call you out for not giving enough.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    97. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things were different back when they were caught doing it. Hubbard's wife was among those sent to prison over Operation Snow White, though.

    98. Re:Standard Scientology practice by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      and more recently "Philosophy should be wiped off the face of the earth"

      That doesn't make any sense, which philosophies should be wiped off the face of the earth? All of them? What about the one that says all philosophies should be wiped off the face of the earth?

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    99. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Not exactly the same, but pre-reformation Catholicism almost fits the bill. They just had all their texts in latin, and forbid translating it into any language the common people knew. The only people who had the time or opportunity to learn latin were the priests, so the reading and interpretation of their holy texts was exclusively the domain of the clergy. They didn't have law suits back then, but they did issue legal bans against the translations.

      Not true,, not true, not true! There were several translations of the Latin Vulgate into the vernacular. The Vulgate was the official translation, however. What kept it from being common was the great expense. Only the wealthy could afford their own copy, whether in the vernacular or in latin.

    100. Re:Standard Scientology practice by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Well, minus the money aspect, it sounds a lot like the Pythagoreans.

    101. Re:Standard Scientology practice by jthill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is just my take, but: in real religious texts you find metaphor for what works long-term, stories that just show how people behave, basically a catalog of the human soul from lots of different perspectives. Gods are the usual stand-ins for what happens for no apparent reason. Care to explain the patterns and gaps in the logistic map without using math? Jesus spoke openly of the reason so much is told as metaphor. "A village is made up of stories about itself", and the stories in fake religions do not describe the real world.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    102. Re:Standard Scientology practice by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      That's religion in general, in contrast scientology is a poorly cloaked commercial scam.

      You're generalizing from a few bad actors to the whole concept. That's like saying science is a scam because the Elsevier publishing company rips off university libraries.

    103. Re:Standard Scientology practice by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Egads, I meant to reply to a different post. Sorry about that.

    104. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds kind of Masonic.

      Uh, what? Since when have the Masons been going around doing stuff like that?

      How do you think they've managed to keep their secret handshake a secret?

    105. Re:Standard Scientology practice by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Remember when you took your date for dinner and she super-sized without asking? It's sorta like that.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

    106. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The author most likely refers to "lawsuits against church", and in this context, he's mostly correct. Law of the land was usually interpreted by a local lord, and unless it was about something obvious, like a priest taking a loan from a well connected local jew and trying to pass on repaying it (no one but jews had the right to practice usury back then) they would not even think of pissing church off by ruling against it. Pissing off the church during pre-reformation Catholicism meant you or someone close to you was going to get branded heretic and burned at the stake, casting a massive shadow on your entire family even if you were nobility.

      You tried to learn latin and learn what bible says? Nine out of ten times local priest would feel threatened and have you branded a heretic resulting in a nice fleshy bonfire. After all, why would a person who's not a member of clergy try to learn the language of the bible if not to pervert the word of God translated to you by his divine messenger the Pope and his ordained faithful followers.

    107. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Nope, 35$ to read their book.

      Would you claim that Christianity charges you to "read their book" because Amazon has bibles on sale? Is this $35 really a charge from the scientologist church to read the book, or a $35 charge for a physical copy of said item?

      Why didn't you say they charge $23.16 (Amazon new hardcover), or $12.82 (Amazon new paperback), or $0.01 (many many sellers, used, add $3.99 shipping for a total of $4)?

      and of course if you actually join the church it costs thousands to hundreds of thousands to advance in it.

      Hey, clearing engrams isn't cheap. You can't just have a tape recorder repeating "run it again".

      Even heroin/cocaine/meth/crack dealers give away the first hit, to lure in new customers. Scientology knows a good marketing technique when it steals it.

    108. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      That accounts for essentially all religions on the planet where clergy isn't working another job for a living. For example, none of the major religion's practising clergy is unpaid - they're all paid by the church or its worshippers "for religious services rendered".

    109. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Actually, many christian churches use the term priest, not just the Roman Catholic Church. Although RC is probably the largest one that uses that term.

    110. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      That's because we separated church and state. Go back a bit over a hundred years and try not paying your 10% to catholic church then. Enjoy the slavery you'll be sold into. Most males were usually sent into coal mines for not being able to pay church their share back then, with life expectancy of a few years.

    111. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      "Well, it's a good thing that nothing exists that is scientifically provable, then..."

      That's a true statement. Once you realize that everything you believe you have seen or heard has come through your alleged sensory apparatii, which may or may not actually exist in anything but your imagination or hallucination, you'd know that it is impossible to prove that you've been able to prove anything.

    112. Re:Standard Scientology practice by daremonai · · Score: 0

      Remember when you took your date for dinner ...

      I think you have the wrong forum. This is Slashdot.

    113. Re:Standard Scientology practice by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Logical proof of a creator is relatively easy, of course you have to look through the cloud of bullshit that has been thrown in your face over the last 20-30 years. The Philosophical arguments for a creator are just as valid now as when originally proposed. Arguments such as "The Uncaused Cause (Aristotle)" are well thought out, and Science has done nothing to solve that question. Of course most atheists will say "no-uh uh" and end the debate.

      Why did you change the subject halfway through. You said "logical proof" was easy, and then started wanking on about "philosophical arguments." Arguments are not proof, and philosophy is not logic.

    114. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The general "non theological" topic of a "creator" is ended with a request of definition of "creator". Even if such being exists, you can not define it without going into theology. And when "creator" is completely undefined, you cannot really have a logical discussion about it. Instead you could just as well note that "big bang" is the "creator" (which will result in science asking who created it, but that's a different discussion entirely).

    115. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Nethead · · Score: 1

      You're right. Even Scientology uses "priest". I guess that priest and priest are about the same.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    116. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Since very early on. The real question is when did they stop and that is after a Masonic murder and jury tampering conspiracy was used by the Know-Nothings to rise to power. In fact, the Shriners were created as part of a movement to reform the Masons after the backlash grew too great to ignore.

    117. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just post your fucking links shit bucket.

    118. Re:Standard Scientology practice by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      A number of Christian denominations have unpaid clergy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    119. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The moral break down in the US is a mixture of a many things. Atheism definitely plays a part, but most surely is not even close to the whole. That's why I suggested to investigate the issue and did not provide it. It's way to complex to try and explain here in a reply.

      As a start, look at when the US did away with classical education and started teaching to standards testing. Start investigating who is pushing many of the agendas you talk about in your first paragraph. Let me give you a hint: There are a lot of people that want the disturbances. It's a slight of hand trick so you don't see what's really been going on. The information is out there, but you you have to look. You sure as helk won't find information on corporate controlled media. Keep zooming out, eventually you will see the big picture.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    120. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I have seen this quote on at least a dozen science blogs recently (last couple months). That is the statement, it's as simple as that. I agree it makes no sense since our Government is founded and established based on Philosophy. I'm not sure that the people repeating the propaganda truly understand their statement, but that's nothing new.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    121. Re:Standard Scientology practice by PoopMonkey · · Score: 2

      Scientology is just one of the many things that should've made you lose faith for the human race. There is a long list of things that should make most people lose faith in humanity. Things like Jersey Shore, for instance.

    122. Re:Standard Scientology practice by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not true,, not true, not true! There were several translations of the Latin Vulgate into the vernacular. The Vulgate was the official translation, however

      It is indeed true. Pope Innocent III banned unauthorized translations of the bible in 1199. Yes, people still did it anyway, and yes, enforcement was patchy, but translations were officially banned, and some people (although not all) were persecuted for performing such translations. The Wycliffe version was the most widespread translation, and it too was explicitly banned in 1409. However, scribes just fudged the date whenever they produced one, so that the date of writing purported to precede the ban, and it became so widespread as to become a de facto standard.

      What kept it from being common was the great expense. Only the wealthy could afford their own copy, whether in the vernacular or in latin.

      Well, it's true they were very expensive. But even in Wycliffe's time, it wasn't so much the expense (although they were expensive) as illiteracy that kept Bibles out of the hands of individuals. Wycliffe's translation wasn't intended to increase personal Bible ownership, so much as it was to allow people to hear the Bible in their own language, the same way the apostles taught it to the Gentiles. The "personal study of the Bible" thing really gained steam a hundred years later with the Reformation.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    123. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Mystery Religions used to be quite popular.

    124. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 0

      One thing I missed was a comment on your quote, outside of the misspelling.

      They just don't feel a need to believe in some arbitrary Judeo-Christian lifestyle.

      I agree with you that the original Bill of Rights was correct as written, it was just not followed. Now it's become so distorted that it has little meaning to most people. Sounds like you have been discriminated against yourself, which is to bad. Most of our politicians now feed the argument instead of trying to resolve it. Things like abortion and equal rights should have been resolved 30 plus years ago, long before I could vote. That itself is something worth pondering.

      That said, you do realize that the original laws were based on Judea-Christian values right? Not the extremist BS mind you, but the 10 commandments which most countries have as a rule of law. That does change how wealth can make certain people exempt from the law, but it is the law as written.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    125. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banning unauthorized translations and "banning translations" are two different things. The reasoning was to ensure the accuracy of any vernacular translations, not to restrict access. And as I understand it, most of the unauthorized translations that survive tend to be very poor and inaccurate.

    126. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 2

      While in most cases I believe this to be true today, historically this was not true. Hence the Lutheran reformation for which one of the many complaints by Luther was the Catholic Church selling Penance tokens for a fixed price. Penance would assure that anyone could get to Heaven according to the Catholic Church at the time, hence ultimate enlightenment.

      I may have the term "Penance" incorrect, been about 20 years since I studied the Lutheran reform. Just figured I'd point that out before someone else called you a liar.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    127. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      My opinion is that a religion may not be permitted to claim copyright. So you can have either religion or copyright but not both.

      Will work for most beliefs.

      Scientology is just a way to praise Mammon.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    128. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Wow, you obviously have no idea what Philosophy is! You do realize that Philosophy is what defined the Scientific Method you probably agree with right? You do realize that Rhetoric which is used to formulate thoughts is Philosophy right? You do realize that correlation, simplification, deductive reasoning, logic, hypothesis are all parts of Philosophy right?

      It's pretty obvious that you don't realize any of that, because someone did not tell you. But I'm sure they told you Cosmology was factual, and Theoretical Physics was factual as well. Have fun being ignorant!

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    129. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scientology actually has a doctrine of "Space Opera". Apparently this was used to recruit confused scifi nerds who wanted to believe that star wars really did occur "in a time long ago, in a galaxy far away".

      http://scientology.wikia.com/wiki/Space_opera

    130. Re:Standard Scientology practice by LordLucless · · Score: 2

      So were the authorized ones; they were generally translating from the vulgate, so it was at best, a translation of a translation. The Wycliffe translation was the most widespread unauthorized translation, and one of the reasons it was so widespread was that it was accurate enough (relative to other translations of the time) that even the clergy weren't able to readily distinguish it from other versions.

      Most of the banned translations were banned because the people who used them tended to be heretical, rather than for innaccuracy - as was the case with the Wycliffe version, which was banned because of it's association with the Lollards (who preceded the reformers in many regards - they even endorsed, pretty much, the American idea of a separation of church and state).

      Oh, and it was another 200 years before the church allowed an "authorized" English version to be published.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    131. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Big bang does not work as the the Creator since the Big Bang has required components. Mass and Energy must exist for the Big Bang to have happened. I agree with the complexity involved in defining a creator, and honestly have spent years trying to define it. The whole problem is a bit more complex however, since there is also a requirement for a definition for "The beginning of the Universe".

      I think some of the latest physics actually helps that definition quite a bit, I have yet to update my work. Lots of good Science has come out recently which I need to factor in.

      Think about the latest theoretical physics work showing that a vacuum is not empty. Particles appear and dis-appear at an incredible rate, and actually cause space to begin to expand and mass and energy begin to form. The creator simply needs to make an initial particle of space or perhaps, and maybe more correctly, is the initial particle of space which everything comes from.

      I also hope that the zealots realize that the recent discovery discounts any need for a big bang and very much debunks the theory being taught for the last half century as an absolute scientific fact. Lets see how many actually get that part.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    132. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I prefer those cults with aliens who actually eat the pudding!

      Not those of the gay actors with planes or those who strap their dogs on the roof.

    133. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Your story is similar to the truth, but not the truth. Hubbard actually wrote papers regarding how to get rich creating a Religion years before writing "Dianetics" and founding the cult. You can read lots of good details here. Operation Clambake is an anti CoS web site that has been around for a long time.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    134. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In Scientology, a scammer fiction writer sat around with bunch of friends sat around and devised a scheme to fleece people out of money."

      In Christianity a bunch of people sat around a table and voted if Jesus was a prophet or the son of god.
      (the latter faction won the vote)

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

    135. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last I checked Scientology is still considered a cult, and is defined as a cult in numerous countries not just the US.

      Time to come into the latter part of the 20th century, then, because Scientology has been classified as a religion in the US since 1993: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_status_by_country.

      Cults are not new, and of course not restricted to Scientology, but they are always called cults.

      Until they grow up and a few hundred or thousand years pass, then they're called "religions".

    136. Re:Standard Scientology practice by couchslug · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology."

      The Catholic Church has handed out over ONE BILLION DOLLARS in settlements to abuse victims worldwide (it can afford the hush money) and the problem is ongoing. Not only doesn't the Church punish pedos, it has sheltered them from prosecution and played a "shell game" moving them to new areas.

      Islams abusive nature currently includes killing apostates and heretics.

      Faith unsupported be EVIDENCE yet propagated as truth deserves opposition.

      Prove your God exists, here, now, and I'll recant and kiss his/her/it's Noodly Appendage. Do it now or take your lying nonsense and stick it where the sun never shines.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    137. Re:Standard Scientology practice by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      They simultaneously mock paying suckers. Bobbies they call you.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    138. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's with the need for skeptics to equate all religion with Scientology in every article about the CoS?

      There's two answers to this. There's a strain of atheism usually called "new atheism" which is primarily defined by its militant (and, IMO, irrational) hatred for all things religious. They tend to rant about other people's "sky fairies", and the importance of "evidence" (a word which has a very specific meaning for them, quite distinct from what it means to a lawyer, for example). So the first answer is simply that these people rail loudly against religion given any opportunity. Articles about CoS present such an opportunity, as do any of the various articles with the theme "fundie right-wingers want creationism taught in schools" (which comes up with surprising frequency). Some of these folks have already responded to your comment, as you can see.

      The second answer is that CoS is one of those indefensibly horrible things of which no reasonable person could approve, and because New Atheists see the world as a perfectly black and white separation of "religion" on the one hand and "science" on the other, they like to prove their point by saying, "see? this is religion! all religion is exactly the same as this!" Those of us who see the world as slightly more nuanced than this will be unpersuaded, of course, and it's that difference in outlook which creates the communications gap. We look at the same world that they do, but we do not see the same thing.

      I hope that makes the dynamics of the situation clearer.

    139. Re:Standard Scientology practice by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      "It's immoral to let a sucker keep his money" Canada Bill Jones

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    140. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sup stoner bro, any evidence to back up your claims? Or are you just another 420FreeMasonDawg ?

    141. Re:Standard Scientology practice by kevingolding2001 · · Score: 2

      Cults tend to cause great amounts of harm to people, often times leading to mental conditions that can never be repaired, suicides, rape and molestation, as well as the financial burdens placed on families and communities.

      http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/churchs-suicide-victims-20120412-1wwox.html

    142. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Truedat · · Score: 1

      A rare voice of reason, wish I had mod points.

    143. Re:Standard Scientology practice by cpghost · · Score: 1

      If the Bible was copyrighted, the copyright owner would require you to pay to read it, and would prosecute you if you taught it to others. Same for other scriptures. They are free only because they ain't copyrighted.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    144. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, now we find out the truth behind taking down Megaupload -- the BBC documentary had been uploaded there. (If you track it down on YouTube, the comments provide Megaupload links.)

    145. Re:Standard Scientology practice by warrax_666 · · Score: 1

      Cults tend to cause great amounts of harm to people, often times leading to mental conditions that can never be repaired, suicides, rape and molestation, as well as the financial burdens placed on families and communities.

      Replace "cults" with "religions" and you'd still be correct. Are we forgetting the systematic cover-ups of paedophilia in the Catholic church (nevermind the actual abuse), the fact that it's generally the poor who tithe the most and the fact that children and grown-ups(!) are actually living in real psychological terror of going to hell?

      --
      HAND.
    146. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      That's religion in general, Scientology just ups the ante.

      Right you are:
      Webster:

      religion
      noun \ri-li-jn\

      2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices

      4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

    147. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a card carrying atheist these were my exact thoughts.

    148. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...Cults tend to cause great amounts of harm to people, often times leading to mental conditions that can never be repaired, suicides, rape and molestation

      Unlike, say, the Catholic church...

    149. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      What's with the need for skeptics to equate all religion with Scientology in every article about the CoS?

      Because no true Scotsman would believe that crazy stuff in Scientology!

      Hey, they both purport to be religions, and are based on fables.

      In one they come down from outer space and defy death; in the other he defies death and then flies up into space.

    150. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology.

      Hey, no need to just 'imply' it...

      Scientology is only 60 years old. Give 'em time.

      The Christian church has been committing "institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption" for hundreds of years. Crusades. Inquisition. Molestation. Money-Laundering.

    151. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      Thanks for showing the "rabid zealot" atheists the "same respect as any other human being."

    152. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      The big, gaping, bloody, hole in Aristotle's "The Uncaused Cause" is that if you require a creator for the universe, you still require a creator for the creator.

      He just asserts that there must be a deity, which puts us back in the "we'll all just take this on faith" camp.

      And, BTW: The reason "...most atheists will say "no-uh uh" and end the debate..." is 'cause they don't want to waste their time on the unsupported 'faith' argument.

    153. Re:Standard Scientology practice by drkim · · Score: 1

      I am still amazed that a religion founded by a scifi author, where the premise amounts to a bunch of scifi stuff, has gained any credibility at all.

      ...Yeah - me too.

      Normally, religions are written by Fantasy writers.

    154. Re:Standard Scientology practice by lightknight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. While the printing press had not been invented (which is heralded as the major change that made the Bible cheap enough for the common man to own), I have reason to believe that the monks / scribes of old new how to use stencils. I spent some time recently reviewing illuminated manuscripts, and having reviewed the scans in a proper imaging programming with zoom functionality, I noticed an odd repeating error. The areas painted blue where offset from the outlines they were intending to fill, but in every case they were shifted upwards by, I'd guess, 4 mm. Every one of them. Examining it in more detail, I realized that while a printing press was out of the question, a stencil could easily have been made at the time, with a team of monks / scribes simply using a paintbrush / roller brush to achieve the same result. Given the nature of the error, the monks / scribes probably used multiple stencils per page, say one stencil for the writing, and one stencil for every layer of color. When the monk / scribe fitted the stencil to the page, he must have accidentally aligned it too far upwards (it was probably clamped, or held in place by some other means). Anyway, I figure the reason for the mistake escaping, was not due to the lack of the monks / scribes noticing it, but because the blue ink was expensive at the time, and was probably the second to last, if not the last layer to be applied. Since creating a new page would still take time (for all the layers to dry between the applications of the stencils), and since the monks / scribes probably didn't think anyone in the populace would notice, out it went. Since books went for so much at the time, the monks / scribes probably made out pretty well for themselves. They could make hundreds of books a month, using this process, and offload them to various sellers on their journeys into town / elsewhere, so no one caught on.

      Think about it. Stencils are so trivial to make that school children make them for fun everyday. And it's not hard to find some paper, even at the time, that would be heavy enough to withstand repeated use. Why would anyone know? Because monasteries draw in certain kinds of people into their fold; people who can keep their mouths shut. What more, they are getting something out of it: a lot of money, for very little work. Why were the prices so high? Because people really thought that monks / scribes would spend months making a single book. Finally, the church, in all of its incarnations, and despite what it sells the common folk, loves science, loves to be the only person on the block with knowledge that no one else has. If you're a commoner, and you own a shop, they want a discount; if you're a commoner and you do not, they want free labor / money put in brass dishes. If you're a soldier / knight, they want you to fight for them in other lands. If you're a lord / noble, they want land. But if you're a scientist, they want you to keep your discoveries secret, tow the line, and give them first access to the good stuff. Shrewd businessmen, from what I can tell; I'd crack a joke about their leader being jewish, so that all makes sense, but someone might miss the joke, and call me anti-Semitic. Still, were it not for the fact that they treat their followers worse than many people treat their dogs, I'd almost have to applaud the amount of cunning / intelligence that lets them pull one over the common man; it's truly something extraordinary, and it's taken them millenia to perfect. The thought has occurred to me that joining their ranks, even in the present day, is a 'good deal' that many take, long after they realize (if they had not at the beginning) that their relationship with God / the people is a little...less holy than they thought it would be. I mean, think about it, you work for only 30 minutes to 2 hours, perhaps twice on Sundays, and twice on Saturdays, make a few appearances at various functions to remind people about their religion, then spend the week counseling people while hearing all sorts of profitable information. A catholic priest wil

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    155. Re:Standard Scientology practice by iphinome · · Score: 1

      I think therefore I am, maybe.

      Or at least I'm glad you made me up.

    156. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's religion in general, Scientology just ups the ante.

      It may be useful to distinguish organised religion from belief. If you want to believe in a sky king then good for you. If you want to set up an organisation ("church") to exult your particular sky king (and fleece money from people in the process) then you should fuck off.

    157. Re:Standard Scientology practice by fatphil · · Score: 1

      > Scientology are no less ridiculous than those of other religions.

      If you measure the believability of the fairy stories, then all religions come in at zero, give or take.

      However, if you measure *un*believability of the fairy stories, then some religions definitely out-rank others, and I think Scientology can definitely look down its nose at many others in that regard.

      Consider how Christianity feeds you its woo-woo stuff right from the start (old and new testament miracles, life after death, big man in the sky, damnation, ...), it's not afraid of how woo-woo it is. Scientology, however, deliberately shields you from much of its woo-woo stuff until you're already hooked. I'm sure it knows that some of the stuff (xenu, volcanos, ...) is too woo-woo that it would put anyone rational off immediately.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    158. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the American idea of a separation of church and state

      How exactly is "one nation under God" separation of church and state?

    159. Re:Standard Scientology practice by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 1

      Extremists are just those furthest from the norm. If you're an extreme pacifist, you're probably not a threat to anyone but yourself.

      --
      We are all God's parents.
    160. Re:Standard Scientology practice by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 2

      You're suggesting that religion doesn't cause great harm? You don't have to go to wars justified to the people with religion. Something as simple but widespread as hatred against homosexuals. People are being killed over this, but more so, people are killing themselves because of the social pressure, because of the hatred and imposed guilt.

      Although I doubt most atheists think religion needs to be wiped out, that's a strawman more than anything else.

      --
      We are all God's parents.
    161. Re:Standard Scientology practice by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Consider Scientology an experiment, that shows just how easy it is to get people to believe in nonsense. And that it suggests not only to be wary of religion, but to be sceptical of everything, if you want to avoid delusions.

      --
      We are all God's parents.
    162. Re:Standard Scientology practice by makomk · · Score: 1

      Some translations of the Bible are recent enough to be copyrighted, e.g. the New Revised Standard Version. They're actually quite cheap though.

    163. Re:Standard Scientology practice by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      As opposed to string theory...

    164. Re:Standard Scientology practice by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Technically a cult and a religion are indistinguishable. (Although major religions such as Catholicism comprise a number of cults.) People very recently began using "cult" derisively to refer to a subset of cults that use practices they particularly disapprove.

    165. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      None of these are even close to being considered "major".

    166. Re:Standard Scientology practice by dbIII · · Score: 1

      True, he should be more like me - an expensive whore for big oil because I know this science stuff works (even the climate stuff those anti-science losers pretend is not happening).

    167. Re:Standard Scientology practice by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Colossus vs Guardian :)

    168. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as an "absolute scientific fact". Using these words together shows massive lack of understanding of how science works. The best science has is a "proven theory backed by observed facts". In science, NOTHING is absolute. This is the biggest difference between science and religion as mental constructs - religion uses definitions which are proven through circular logic and are considered absolute no matter absurd and against observed facts. In science, everything must be proven through linear logic and even then cannot be ever considered absolute as there is always a chance of fault in observations or logic. Best science can ever do is "high degree of certainty".

    169. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      Heh, the Masons really came out in force to prove you right ...

    170. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 1

      Scientology doesn't have a whole lot of power except for the unfortunates caught in their web either ... that's not really the point he is making.

    171. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      "The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology. If an atheist cannot see the stark differences in nature and degree, then he is blinded by a dogmatic opposition towards faith."

      It's probably just that it takes an atheist to know that most religions are in fact roughly as oppressive and corrupt. As usual, everything is rosy from the inside, but the people with outside perspective see what you will not.

      Scientology is visibly bad, but only because it lacks excuses. Christianity gets away with advocating homophobia, effectively causing millions of cases of AIDS in Africa, political corruption, etc, etc, etc.. And that's only now: much worse was done in the Catholic Church in the past (and yes, all the protestant denominations have dark histories of their own).

    172. Re:Standard Scientology practice by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      Those 2 orders probably cost as much as everything else combined. It was a little bit of a strange thing for a new hire to do.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    173. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where is that phrase ever mentioned? It's not in the Constitution. Nor is it in the original Pledge of Allegiance. In fact, it was only added to the Pledge in 1954.

      Now of course it should never have been added, and we shouldn't have to swear on the Bible when testifying, but that's a separate matter.

    174. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop slandering the Mafia!

    175. Re:Standard Scientology practice by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

      Your story is similar to the truth, but not the truth. Hubbard actually wrote papers regarding how to get rich creating a Religion years before writing "Dianetics" and founding the cult. You can read lots of good details here. Operation Clambake is an anti CoS web site that has been around for a long time.

      Yep, good link there. It's a lot to take in. It led me to the Wikipedia site on Hubbard http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard#section_7 . There I did a quick read on him. The guy was a loon! Made his money though, net worth of $600 million when he kicked. I also learned how, at the time, the great writer Isaac Asimov called Dianetics "gibberish", and that's good enough for me, but boy are people suckers. "What a world..., what a world..." - The last words uttered by The Wicked Witch of the West.

    176. Re:Standard Scientology practice by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      ok, that's good to know.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    177. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Ah, so you mean it's like when you're trying to act like a big shot and impress people with your false magnanimous gesture but you don't really expect them to actually take advantage of it and then being the petty little person you are you then resent them for calling your bluff. Yup, can see why that's a problem for a lot of US'ians.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    178. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Masonic? Don't you mean US government?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    179. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Who do you think run the country clubs?;P

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    180. Re:Standard Scientology practice by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Somehow, being called ignorant by someone who actually uttered the phrase "logical proof of a creator is relatively easy" doesn't seem to sting the ego very sharply.

      Funny, that.

    181. Re:Standard Scientology practice by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      I didn't claim to believe in God. Also, read what I wrote, which you quoted, again:

      "The common underpinning of faith does not imply that other religions share the institutionalized, wholesale abuse and corruption committed by the Church of Scientology."

      Now read it in the context of the post I was replying to. Do you really think I was trying to excuse or ignore the injustices of other religions? I was simply pointing out my problem with extrapolating the transgressions of the CoS to religion as a whole.

      "Do it now or take your lying nonsense and stick it where the sun never shines."

      Why did you choose to act like such an asshole and end your post with this?

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    182. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      While I agree with what you state, the obvious point is that we have been taught that there is no room for question. The Big Bang was taught as a fact for millions upon millions of people. It's in text books and argued vehemently by the atheist movement as fact and anyone that did not agree with it was ridiculed and belittled.

      It's not the first time science has told us that something is factual and anyone that disagreed was (insert statement of ridicule or insult) just to find out later it was not factual. It's just the latest. That was my point, apologies if it was not clear enough.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    183. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jmc23 · · Score: 1
      Got my copy for $1.50 at a used book store. It'd basic fringe psychology of the time (dianetics has no trace of the craziness of scintology). I was also offered a copy when I went to investigate their local headquarters here. Have to admit everybody there had that same feeling you get from a strung out heroin whore. I found it interesting that at the time I went to investigate there were many stories of people beong hounded by them to join. I wonder if because I scored very high on their modified self-actualization questionnaire (I forget which specific exam it was modified from, but was a pretty standard historic psych exam covered in one of my psych courses at the time), modified by turning many questions into loaded ones to produce a tendency to answer in a way that you needed their help, that they didn't purse me. I wonder if the whole point of the test is to screen for gullible suckers with voids in their lives to scam from.

      Now, if they were grammar specialists I could definitely use their help.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    184. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but everybody knows you can't level-up at a christian church, it's all that equality crap.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    185. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read a book, called "No More Wacos", that made an interesting point about the word "cult": that it is a word used to dehumanize other groups, sometimes small but sometimes large, that believe in things we find odd and/or funny. The word ought to be considered as offensive as other words are to various minorities (eg. ni**** for blacks, and dykes for lesbians).

      Frankly, I agree. What happened to the Branch Divideans, did not need to happen, and should not have happened.

      Having said that, I will not defend Scientology's belief system, nor their parasitic financial reliance on their members, nor their attempts to censor people. They are free to be weird, and the members who allow themelves to be abused by them are free to do so (they are adults, after all), so long as they accept that we have the right to criticise their practices. It is their eagerness to attempt to censor us that bugs me.

    186. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      Um, no, I wasn't. I don't know what other religions call their holy guys. I just thought they were all priests.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    187. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      And the relevance of stuff from 100 years ago has what relevance in this discussion? Why not go back to the Spanish Inquisition? Maybe the Crusades!

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
    188. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The only teaching where there is "no room for question" is religion. In it, you either blindly believe no matter what, or you do not.

      In science, there is no room for blind belief. At all. If you were ever "taught" that there is by someone, then your teacher has been utterly terrible. The entire basis of science as a mental construct is that the only absolute in science is that there is absolutely no absolutes. This is the main reason why most religious people who like to pass science as "just another belief" miss the point. They simply cannot fathom that there can be a mental construct that aims to explain the existence that doesn't match their expectations of explaining the uncertainties and insecurities in absolute fashion. To them, such a construct would be dysfunctional and not worth believing in.

      I will readily agree that teacher are humans just like the rest of us, and often make mistakes in their teachings. The first thing they told us in the first science class in eighth grade (I live in Finland) was that everything we will be taught should be questioned, and that there are no absolutes. That was the first thing we were taught before any of the actual scientific theories were taught.

      And one can make a (false) assumption that science is factual because it's based on facts. Science is fact-BASED, which is different. But laymen rarely understand the difference any more that they understand the difference between theory and hypothesis.

      As for "atheist movement", as far as I know, atheism is about arguing that there is no God. As a result, the term itself becomes an anathema of itself, "a-theist" literally "one who believes that there is no religion". As a result, there is no chance of "atheist movement" arguing for anything religious by nature, such as "science is absolute", because in doing so it would in fact become theist, the exact opposite of atheist. Personally I view myself not so much atheist as agnostic, so it's hard for me to make this call, but I certainly sympathize with people who would actively want to convert people away from religion without using theist terms and remain understood. I suspect that your apparent misunderstandings come as a logical result of this paradox.

    189. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      We are talking about the roots of organisation that is extremely conservative and anti-progress to the point of murdering scores of people who were trying to advance humanity and much of which still functions like it exists in the middle ages. If you fail to find relevance, you have a severe logic failure on your part.

    190. Re:Standard Scientology practice by amRadioHed · · Score: 1

      Care to link to an example? I did some searching and didn't find anything.

      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
    191. Re:Standard Scientology practice by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      Let me help you out here, since you seem to be missing 3 major points.

      1. Philosophy is not the same as rebellion and there is no argument that it should be wiped from the earth. It is beneficial to human kind and is the forerunner to scientific though and exploration.

      2. Religions are similar to cults, especially under a dictionary definition. Religions are harmful to people as they encourage a lack of critical thinking, cause people to donate money that would be better spent elsewhere, cause them to make poor life decisions. You only have to look at the ridiculous resistance to accepting evolution for an example of harm.

      3. Scientology is similar to Judea-Christianity, indeed any religion...because it is a religion. People are believing things which if they stopped and thought, would agree are unlikely, improbably and downright irrational. Yet, for some reason they have faith so none of that matters. Which goes back to point 2, that religions are harmful.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
    192. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if you prove Tom Cruise exists by bringing him to my house right now.

      What I mean by that is, your point is fucking ridiculous.

    193. Re:Standard Scientology practice by fatphil · · Score: 1

      You clearly have no idea what "guilt" is. Knowing someone's identity is not a component in it, that's "traceability" or "accountability", which is completely orthogonal as a concept.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    194. Re:Standard Scientology practice by SternisheFan · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse God with religion. It's my belief that ALL religions are all MANmade and have absolutely nothing to do with God. God is inside each and every one of us, that is where to find his church. In a 10 by 10 square block area in L.A you'll find 1000 different religion, you can take your pick. But only ONE God.

    195. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Larryish · · Score: 1

      Is there a difference?

      Here is a proportioned Venn diagram of those two groups:

      O

    196. Re:Standard Scientology practice by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      How does all of these tactics, including infiltration of government, not qualify as terrorism?

      Why does it matter what you call it? They're all very obviously wrong and illegal actions.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    197. Re:Standard Scientology practice by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Why did you choose to act like such an asshole and end your post with this?"

      All religion is toxic and all defense of it merits relentless attack. Religions differ in some details, but they exist to make slaves of men.

      Never defend them. At all. None deserve anything but relentless attack as all superstitions are inherent enemies of personal freedom and of the search for truth.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    198. Re:Standard Scientology practice by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "It really makes me lose hope for the human race."

      The other superstitions didn't accomplish that long ago?

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    199. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Elldallan · · Score: 1

      They also encouraged people to pay churchmen to say X number of prayers for dead loved ones or even themselves after they died or in preparation of their death under the general principle that the more prayers people sent your way the better off you would be in heaven. Sounds familiar?

    200. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Deep+Esophagus · · Score: 1

      OK, again I ask: Where do you see references to being sold into slavery for not paying a tithe? C'mon, just one reference shouldn't be too hard.

      Nor does separation of church and state have anything to do with it. Martin Luther decried abuses of power within the church, and their thinly-veiled extortion ("indulgences") to amass profits, long before the US constitution was written. All you've discovered is that some people have (and sure, still do) hidden their corruption behind a cloak of religion. There always have been, and always will be, people who use the church for personal gain and people who use it as they believe their holy book (not limiting this to one particular flavor) tells them is the right thing to do.

      In any case, this rabbit trail didn't start out discussing what those people did 100 years ago; you explicitly said they WILL ask for money and there WILL be pressure and expectation for you to hand over your money. That is the claim that I disputed.

    201. Re:Standard Scientology practice by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 1

      "All religion is toxic and all defense of it merits relentless attack."

      Wow, dude. Good luck with that jihad of yours.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    202. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But only ONE God.

      Prove it.

    203. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, scientology did come after christianity...

    204. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One was made up a long time ago, and the other was made up relatively recently.

    205. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I'll try to find one, I have a bookmark at work. It's a blog site for the theory of evolution related to humans being water dwelling instead of safari dwelling (it's actually a good theory). Maybe that will get you started. But you see similar quotes right in this thread. I have replied to at least one that hints at Philosophy being idiocy and useless for progression.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    206. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Any decent history book. Pick one up. Debts to church were a priority during middle ages due to church's favoured position within all but a few European nations. Slavery was common back then as well, and selling debtor to slavery when he couldn't pay the debt in any other way was common back then, for everything from debts to usurer to debts to a church. You seem to be looking at the things from US point of view with your utterly irrelevant US reference, and you appear utterly clueless of slaving practices in middle ages Europe.

      Finally, if you seriously claim that church will not pressure you to pay alms to it now, I urge you to start living in a deeply religious region and systemically refuse to pay donations to the church. You'll find yourself ostracised from the local community at extreme speed. "Oh but it's not the church's doing" is not an excuse here - church controls the mindset and just because it now switched to essentially excluding people from communities through peer pressure and backroom talk rather then direct pressure and charging a tithe doesn't make the actual process or requiring money different. It's just that methods became more humane as we progressed and tithe became unsustainable.

      So yes, modern church WILL ask for money and there WILL be pressure and expectation for you to hand over the money. Welcome to the church.

    207. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      For your item 1, Philosophy is seen as a threat. If one can think for themselves it's dangerous. This is a phenomenon that is not new at all. Hell go back to the Sophist movements from the time of Socrates and Plato. Knowledge = Power, and the people that have power know this. Do you think it's accidental that 20 years ago laws were passed so that people could own ideas? More on this as I get to item 2.

      For your item 2, much has to do with item 1. Look, I don't care if you don't believe we have a creator. What I do care about is that the vast majority of atheists have been brainwashed not to think about the answer for themselves. All they can do is repeat the same fallacies that have been used to brainwash them. I'm sure you will recognize "I don't need your superstitious mumbo jumbo to have a Universe" and "I don't need some fairy tale.." and "I don't need some sky bully..". Those are all well designed fallacies meant to brain wash people. It's an old trick, but most people won't recognize it since it's beat in to their heads over and over, and for a very long time. The opinion is obvious: "No need for a God". The remainder of those fallacies is intended to humiliate anyone that thinks about the answer for themselves, or anyone that does not agree with the opinion. They also intentionally state that an opposing opinion must be fake. The amount of open brain washing that's going on in society is scary.

      Now, let me ask a question regarding the fallacy. If there is no need for a creator, why are people in power spending so much money telling you so? Do you know how much money Hawking made by coming out and saying there was no need for a creator? How about Kraus, or countless others that make small fortunes writing books, doing TV appearances, being paid for public speaking, etc.. all to convince you not only are they right, but that you should not look for an answer.

      The paragraph above should not be mistaken for me saying atheism is wrong mind you. The answer is opinion (It can not be proven), and everyone is entitled to their own in my opinion. People are not given the tools required to formulate an opinion, and rhetorical tricks are used to make sure as many as possible never go looking. I despise the brainwashing, not a different opinion.

      For item 3, again you are not right. CoS does not teach creation, nor does it try to answer the same questions as Religion. Religion tries to answer the basic Philosophical question of why we are here and where everything comes from. CoS does not. CoS openly teaches that money is required to be better than the next guy, discounts any human responsibility for actions (good or bad), and encourages those with money to abuse those without. There is no charity in CoS and no good-will.

      I'm sure you will immediately start pointing out how Religion has in many cases done similar things. I'll point out that humans are pretty fucked up, and abuse everything possible for greed. True Religion does not teach it's right, but it's not possible to prevent pricks from getting in to their system. Just like we have greedy douche bags in Politics we have greedy douche bags in Religions. It's about power, not about Religion. The nicest people tend to get fucked by the nastiest because of human nature, not because of Religion.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    208. Re:Standard Scientology practice by s.petry · · Score: 1

      If only I believed that you were correct for the US ( I see that you are not from here). Go read some science books at our local public schools. Show me where it states that the big bang is theory, or the age of the Universe is theory, or that evolution of species is theory. In some cases, it may be mentioned somewhere in the text but it's not taught that way. Go ask some Junior high kids in the US the question, and see what they answer. The presentation is what I take issue with, not the theory.

      Next, go look at the rhetoric used to dissuade people from looking at anything outside of the theories. I'm not sure this is a US only phenomenon, but perhaps it is.

      As mentioned previously, I agree with your premise. That premise is what we started with when the Scientific Method was defined. The practice is very different very often. I often point out to atheists that they are stronger evangelists than Religious people very intentionally. Yes, it's a movement just like any other religion that evangelizes. When masses of people are paid to tell people how to think (read some of my other posts in this thread if that lost you), and fallacies are used to convince people not to look, and of course the atheist opinion must be right and everyone else is wrong.. it's a movement.

      Lastly, you are only correct about science being fact based when it comes to things that we _can_ measure and test. In order to get to the point where we can build tests and methods of measurement we must use Philosophical methods first. Everything in Science starts with logic and reason. It's still science, even when we can't take measurements. There are numerous fields where we only have logic and reason as tools to work with. That may be the same thing you were stating, I could have easily misread your statement.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    209. Re:Standard Scientology practice by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You weirded me out enough to make me dig out my old lyceum (local equivalent of high school) physics textbooks. In text book that was attached to course 1, the only mandatory course of physics for all students, they don't only tell that everything in physics is theoretical, they go into great depths to explain what that means and why. The entire first chapter basically goes through physics being a "empirical science based on observations of surrounding world, that aims to define laws that reflect the world around us as accurately as possible". It goes as far as to mention that "current laws physics are our approximations that are approaching being able to define many parts of surrounding world almost exactly like they probably are".

      I also faintly recall our teacher talking about physics being "exact but not absolute, and the main purpose of this course is to teach you how to think critically about everything I will teach" on the first lecture. I strongly suspect that what you're describing is a problem of US school system and its deeply ingrained culture of religion rather then the general teaching and understanding of physics.

    210. Re:Standard Scientology practice by T+Murphy · · Score: 1

      This may go unnoticed, but...

      If a religious person were to try and question the ability of an atheist to act morally, this would be my response:
      "If you do the right thing only because God tells you to, then I claim I'm a better person then you, as I do the right thing without any selfish interest. If, on the other hand, you do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do, then I don't see how we are any different."

      Alternatively, you could propose "However impossible, let's pretend I somehow proved to you that God does not exist, would you continue to do the right thing?"
      They will of course say yes (except for the ones who will take offense at even pretending God doesn't exist).
      "So you admit yourself that an atheist could be driven to do the right thing."

    211. Re:Standard Scientology practice by bryan1945 · · Score: 1

      Yes, burning witches is still quite popular. I hear that the rack is still rather popular, too. I think the lack of logic is more on your side since you're talking about things that stopped somewhere around the Industrial Revolution. Are there still fringe camps? Yes. "Much of which still functions like it exists [sic] in the middle ages"? No.

      --
      Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  3. Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by sandytaru · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm glad Katie dumped his ass and is doing her best to protect Suri from that cult.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by mug+funky · · Score: 1

      this. ...wait, celebrity goss on MY /. that doesn't involve Steve Jobs?

    2. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Kenja · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well... the kid is named after the voice on my iPhone isn't it?

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
    3. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by ackthpt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm glad Katie dumped his ass and is doing her best to protect Suri from that cult.

      Yeah, but I can only feel so much sympathy for someone who walked right into that mess anyway, and if you believe the papers, she married him for cache down and a salary, plus bonuses for offspring. Bet they'll throw every lawyer and dollar they have into the battle to discredit her and rip that child away from her. Her best defense would be to blog everything so people can see how it really works when the Co$ is on your case.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    4. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by geekoid · · Score: 1

      well, that mess is very clever and specifically design to trap people inly a life time payment plan.

      Don't blame the victim.

      You are correct, she could turn this around pretty well for herself.
      A tell all to any rag would get her a fortune and position herself so that when Scientology goes for her she can point and say "See?".

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      No. The kid stole my name. I used it first.

    6. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      He may have ten times as much money as she does, but she's not exactly coming from poverty street herself. I believe she was valued at twenty five million.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    7. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mr. Jobs? Mr. Jobs, come out of the coffin.

    8. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by rrohbeck · · Score: 1

      Hmm. Has Apple sued for unlicensed use of that iName yet?

    9. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      well, that mess is very clever and specifically design to trap people inly a life time payment plan.

      Don't blame the victim.

      You are correct, she could turn this around pretty well for herself.
      A tell all to any rag would get her a fortune and position herself so that when Scientology goes for her she can point and say "See?".

      Yeah, I'd like to see them take her marriage contract into a US court. The court would put them in jail.

      On the front of the Co$ fragmenting, that's probably about normal. It's been around a few decades, it has a leadership with a rather rigid set of expectations and some people are starting to think independently (especially after reading stuff on the web) and splintering off.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    10. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Have you considered that this little girl is the one answering all the iRequests?

    11. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by ackthpt · · Score: 1

      He may have ten times as much money as she does, but she's not exactly coming from poverty street herself. I believe she was valued at twenty five million.

      If she was smart she took every cent she had and moved it to a bank account with only her name on it and her family as beneficiaries, should anything unfortunate happen.

      Sounds all rather mideval in some ways...

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
    12. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by grasshoppa · · Score: 2

      It's hard to feel sympathy here; she chose Tom and his wacky religion. She decided he was good father material. Now she's changed her mind, but you know what? She doesn't get to do that. That's not how it works.

      Her decision that scientology sucks NOW does not negate her decision that scientology was ok back THEN.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    13. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Gonoff · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Consider the possibility that "then" she actually liked/loved/lusted after/whatever the guy and the Co$ bit was something she weighed against that and it was not as important. Her feelings towards him seem to have changed and so she re-weighs the factors and comes to a different decision.

      In other words, she may NEVER have considered scientology ok but that was not important then.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    14. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by magarity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's hard to feel sympathy here; she chose Tom and his wacky religion

      Truly, I'm happy for you that you've never had to meet any actors. 99% are beautiful, self absorbed, and utterly naive. Almost certainly she took Tommy's assertions about Scientology at face value and didn't notice the down side for years.

    15. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't have posted anon - now that was funny! I don't care who you are.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    16. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's hard to feel sympathy here; she chose Tom and his wacky religion. She decided he was good father material. Now she's changed her mind, but you know what? She doesn't get to do that. That's not how it works.

      Her decision that scientology sucks NOW does not negate her decision that scientology was ok back THEN.

      What she did is called "growing up" and "maturing" and"learning from experience." Generally speaking, this is a positive thing. I hope you come to experience it in your life. Otherwise, you will spend it being exactly as you are now. That would suck.

      --
      Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
    17. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > is doing her best to protect Suri from that cult.

      Cult, noun.
      Definition: Any group that says their way is the only way [to salvation.]

      You can outlaw bad religions but you can't outlaw stupidity. :-/

    18. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Her decision that scientology sucks NOW does not negate her decision that scientology was ok back THEN.

      Even knowing what we know about CoS, It's hard to believe that anyone actually believes what Scientologists say they believe. Imagine how much harder it would be to believe that someone you care for actually believes that crap, so you rationalize it by imagining that there is some secret knowledge that you will receive because you're special, all that stupid shit is just to keep the ordinary people distracted. Actor and Actresses are almost by definition narcissistic and highly vulnerable to social validation attacks. I suspect that that involuntary resident auditing sessions broke through Miss Holms delusions and denials and made her realize that she had to escape the cult or die in it.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    19. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by cusco · · Score: 1

      And about 75 percent are dumb as dirt. When I left the theatre I swore that I would never return until they had replaced actors with holograms (of course then they wouldn't need a lighting designer any more either).

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    20. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Nethead · · Score: 1

      I just made you my only foe for that submission.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    21. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's hard to feel sympathy here; she chose Tom and his wacky religion. She decided he was good father material. Now she's changed her mind, but you know what? She doesn't get to do that. That's not how it works.

      Well, the courts and the millions of divorcees in the United States disagree with you.

      I say take him for everything he's worth.

    22. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you misspelled "cunt" ...

    23. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by grasshoppa · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I should have been clearer; while she can certain experience whatever epiphany she wishes, she does not get to dictate those decisions for her child; the father has just as much right to those decisions as she does, and like I said; she obviously was OK with it at some point.

      Now I can't stand scientology..or indeed...any religion. But what's going on here is a selfish mother trying to cut out the father after she decided she couldn't be civil anymore. The courts are not, generally speaking, amused by this behavior.

      --
      Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
    24. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by IMightB · · Score: 1

      I don't know, some may want to call it flip-flopping.

    25. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, her best defense is to take as much money as she can, kidnap Suri, and flee to a country with no extradition treaty with the US and where Scientology is banned.

    26. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      It was the same sort of thing but more so with Nicole Kidman. Her family have owned about 1/10 of Australia for a century (mostly dry bits, but that's a lot of space to run cattle) and she pulled in a few million per film as an actress. Things were just too weird to expose a kid to so she left Tom Cruise and the Scientologists.

    27. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Now she's changed her mind, but you know what? She doesn't get to do that. That's not how it works.

      I can't imagine why not! Please elaborate. She has learned and grown and as a result she sees things now that she didn't then. How is that wrong?

      It could also be that he has changed fro the worse over time. He could also be one of those people who puts on a really good front (he IS a professional actor) but isn't so nice once you see behind the curtain.

    28. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Superstition is ALWAYS important because it controls and utterly defines the Superstitionists life.

      Superstition is not a hobby. Choose a mate who believes a similar Superstition, or who is free of that shit, but mismatch bodes no good.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    29. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      No, her best defense is to take as much money as she can, kidnap Suri, and flee to a country with no extradition treaty with the US and where Scientology is banned.

      Unfortunately, Tom is one of the few fathers who might be able to get someone to back up the Hague convention. Go somewhere that didn't sign it, and he can bribe his way past government officials and kidnap Suri right back.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    30. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      What she did is called "growing up" and "maturing" and"learning from experience." Generally speaking, this is a positive thing. I hope you come to experience it in your life. Otherwise, you will spend it being exactly as you are now. That would suck.

      Horseshit. She was 28. How much further are we going to stretch childhood? Oh, because she's a rich, famous, attractive, white woman she gets a pass? Certainly seems that way. Plenty of less fortunate people are held to higher scrutiny due to actual youth related lapses in judgement.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    31. Re:Then let me violate the Code of Conduct on /. by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      But what's going on here is a selfish mother trying to cut out the father after she decided she couldn't be civil anymore. The courts are not, generally speaking, amused by this behavior.

      You forgot to mention 'YMMV'. This varies wildly from court to court and judge to judge.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  4. Praise xenu!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think scientology is a pile of poo!

    1. Re:Praise xenu!!! by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      I think it is deplorable that you would say such a thing.

      It is an insult to piles of poo everywhere.

    2. Re:Praise xenu!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      POO is the acronym in Spanish whereas Xenu is the antonym of UNIX the best one true OS ever!

  5. Power of language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They need to shape language to suit their need. Good examples are "descrimination (aka choice) is bad" by the feminist movement. Also try "anti-Semitic" (which is used to strike fear into anyone who accuses/threatens anyone Jewish of anything be it right or wrong.
    Scientlogists need to coin a similar term to strike fear into the general public.

    1. Re:Power of language by Nadaka · · Score: 1
    2. Re:Power of language by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or "islamophobia", a term that is used to shame those who object to the practice of blowing oneself up in the middle of a croweded street.

  6. In fairness to Scientology by Apharmd · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities. Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

    1. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This! Mod parent up!

    2. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths.

      Because they had a late start.

    3. Re:In fairness to Scientology by sabri · · Score: 1

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme.

      [Chris Hansen voice] So, why don't you have a seat right over there and sign up for this free personality test? [/voice]

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    4. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is only because Scientology is still young. Given time, I am sure they can kill as many people as good old fashioned cults have managed to.

    5. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Teun · · Score: 1

      However valid on their own your points fail when comparing world religions with hundreds of millions of followers to a commercially exploitative cult with at best a hundred thousand of nuts and fruits.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    6. Re:In fairness to Scientology by OverlordQ · · Score: 1

      > However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine

      They've also been around over 40 times longer then Scientology. It's a baby religion, but look what it's been able to do in its first 60 years.

      --
      Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
    7. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities."

      Except that:

      1. Once you reach 1-2 generations of dead people it is effectively distant past if the purpose is to learn something about the people today;

      2. "A religion" does not do anything, only some or many followers of the religion.

    8. Re:In fairness to Scientology by rudy_wayne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities.

      Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

      All those other religions had a 2000 year head start on Scientology, so the Scientologists are way behind in the killing and other stuff, but that is irrelevant. Scientology is not a religion by any reasonable definition of the term. They only use the word church in their name for tax-avoidance purposes and so that they can claim "religious persecution" if anyone tries to challenge their absurd nonsense.

      Scientology is a lot of things -- scam, dangerous cult, organized crime -- but one thing it is not is a religion.

    9. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1

      Regardless of whatever credo, religion, belief system, philosophy or culture, mankind will find one reason or another to give way to his baser, violent urges and go on mass murdering sprees.

      The problem isn't religion, the problem is mankind.

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    10. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, it's a good thing that atheists like Hitler, Stalin and Mao are so much better, then...

      Stalin and Mao fair enough but how can you justify pegging Hitler as an atheist?

    11. Re:In fairness to Scientology by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities.

      Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

      Christianity has had something of a 1920-year head start over Scientology. Give these nutjobs enough time and I'm sure they'll rack up plenty of damage.

      --
      Drill baby drill - on Mars
    12. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're pretty special, aren't you?

      (E)specially stupid.

      Despite factual errors (e.g. Hitler's regime was not athiest)... those people did bad things because they are bad people. Their supposed athiesm has nothing to do with it; athiesm does not imply nor encourage nor suggest those actions.

      Religious texts and teachings on the other hand...

    13. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities.

      Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

      Why not include the Aztecs in your list so you can claim they also practice human sacrifice? While christianity did rise from Judaism, the three are not really related in the way you are trying to make them.

      As for your claims of sanctioning genocide, sexually abusng children and slavery, particularly not in the distant past, I'd like to see your documentation. If you could produce documentation of such events by the various religions and sects to demonstrate how these things were officially sanctioned, then you would be doing a great service to the /. readers.

      There are many things to validly complain about with organized religion, however, wild unsubstantiated claims, as you make are not valid complaints but just show your own ignorance and bigotry.

    14. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

      ...cult with at best a hundred thousand of nuts and fruits.

      I thought Cruise married because the cult banned fruits...

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    15. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is only because Scientology is still young. Given time, I am sure they can kill as many people as good old fashioned cults have managed to.

      You do know that in the 20th century, the two godless societies of the former USSR and China killed many more people than the so called cults have throughout their entire history.

    16. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (full disclosure: exmormon with a high sensitivity to bullshit and a deep loathing of scientology... and Fair warning, if I have to study scientology (na-ga-happen!) to understand how you arrived at your not a religion view, don't bother answering in depth; it'll waste both of us's time.)

      So, how exactly do you define religion? I googled up this:

      1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
      2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
      3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
      4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
      5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

          I only ask because 'm just staring at it, then at my former faith and catholicism, then back at it... and seems to me like they're all toting the requisite wackadoodle creation myths, rituals, reasons for existence, moral/ethical constructs. How is Scientology not a religion?

    17. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Informative

      You would be wrong.

      Stalin and Mao were the gods of their religion built around a cult of personality and unwavering faith in authority and righteousness.

    18. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      However valid on their own your points fail when comparing world religions with hundreds of millions of followers to a commercially exploitative cult with at best a hundred thousand of nuts and fruits.

      Every religion today has gone through that stage as viewed by contemporaries...

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    19. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 5, Funny

      The problem isn't religion, the problem is mankind.

      True, but advocate eliminating the problem and suddenly you're the bad guy...

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    20. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Well, it's a good thing that atheists like Hitler, Stalin and Mao are so much better, then...

      Stalin and Mao fair enough but how can you justify pegging Hitler as an atheist?

      I'm pretty sure Stalin believed in the Cult of Stalin pretty heavily. Mao I don't know enough about to make a statement on what I think his beliefs were.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    21. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      Not an atheist - maybe. I never heard that he claimed to be one. In socially backwards countries that would prevent your being elected. He was elected you know,

      I'm not sure what religion he was though. The area he was born in had a lot of Catholics and he was baptised. That doesn't prove what his religion was as an adult though. He certainly used the RC church politically but he also allowed his followers to do some pretty weird things that the Catholics are supposed to be against.

      As a non-historian, I would say he was nothing in particular.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    22. Re:In fairness to Scientology by bloodhawk · · Score: 1

      I think it depends entirely on what perspective you look at them from. I think if you look at some of the deluded followers then yes it fits under a religion with only slightly more whacked out beliefs than the more common ones. But if you look at why the cult was formed (an experiment in scamming people out of money) then it can be sene more as either organised crime/scam or at most a cult.

    23. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Teun · · Score: 1

      Because?

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    24. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities
      Can you give an example of a Judeo atrocities in the last century?

    25. Re:In fairness to Scientology by KeensMustard · · Score: 1

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine.

      Tens of millions? Really? What wars were those?

      You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities.

      Atrocities are always committed in the "name of" something. Minor atrocities have been committed in my name - but I utterly repudiate the notion that I have any responsibility for those atrocities. Atrocities have been committed in *your* name as well, and in the name of your religion. So as a wise man once said - take the plank out your own eye before trying to remove a speck from the eye of your brother.

      Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

      And to others, your faith looks ridiculous as well. So what?

    26. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Isn't that essentially how the mega churches operate as well? They have stores, their employees make a lot of money, they strongly discourage anyone who disagrees with them. Yes, "Christianity" as a whole isn't like that, but sects of it are. You can't really group any large religions (including Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) into one whole, because they each have a large variety of sects, some of which act very 'cultish'.

    27. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A cult != a charismatic "cult of personality" != a totalitarian movement != religion != "faith".

      People are constantly trying to stick all of these on a continuum, mainly so they can tar anyone who isn't as atheist as them, but they all significantly differ in kind. Lumping them all together significantly reduces our understanding of the world and how people really are.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    28. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths.
      They did not have the time to...

    29. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... or at most a cult

      I think a lot of people here on /. do not see a large distinction between religion and cult, other than some minor organizational heirarchy differences at best.

    30. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Stalin had stated that he was an atheist in his adult life, but he was raised orthodox and showed a certain fealty to christian folk traditions, even if he wasn't willing to admit it. For example, it was he who had Lenin embalmed, in an effort to exploit (or just realize) an old Russian orthodox belief that the body of saint did not putrefy.

      Stating outright that Stalin "believed in the cult" of his own personality is pretty nonsensical: of course he didn't worship himself, and all the evidence we have indicates that he lived in a state of constant terror and paranoia that he would be betrayed by the most loyal people around him. The people that knew him and immediately surrounded him certainly didn't believe he was divine or divinely inspired, even the generation of leaders he found to replace the first generation that he'd had killed.

      Also the comparison of Stalin's cult to any religious faith is pretty offensive to religion, let alone other personality cults. Stalin's cult died with him, it had none of the staying power of even Kim Il-Sung cult of personality, which still burns bright.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    31. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The three religions you mention claim a membership comprised of nearly half of all the people on Earth; time and scale play a large role in the numbers.

      Besides that fact, there should be no discussion of "fairness" for any of the parties involved. Condemn the behavior based on the behavior, not on some relativistic analysis of other corrupt institutions.

    32. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's part of it. The other part is the fact that Scientology takes "loony" to a whole new level, and loony though conventional religions might be, they don't require vast sums of money to be paid in order to learn them. Scientology has just enough followers (marks) to keep their business going, but the structure of it has limited potential to grow. While there may be a sucker born every minute, it would have to be faster than that to get Scientology up to the numbers of the major religions. There are too many people that will recognize it for the scam that it is.

    33. Re:In fairness to Scientology by jcr · · Score: 1

      Hitler was a Catholic, and he believed that he was divinely ordained to rule the world.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    34. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Stalin and Mao fair enough but how can you justify pegging Hitler as an atheist?

      It's a very fraught issue:

      • Hitler was baptized and raised Roman Catholic, as most Austrians of his generation were.
      • Hitler formed his original governing coalition with the German Catholic Centre party. His vice-chancellor, Franz Von Papen, got his job as vice-chancellor as a condition of the Centre supporting Hitler's government. Of course, once the Reichstag was set on fire, Hitler no longer needed the Centre party and dumped them.
      • The Third Reich had an official "Reich Bishop," a protestant evangelical, albeit one utterly committed to Nazism. The autonomy of churches themselves was highly circumscribed, and pastors, bishops, and priests were constantly being thrown in concentration camps for stepping beyond political bounds.
      • Hitler famously concluded a treaty with the Pope, essentially securing the Vatican's acquiescence over mistreatment of its ordinaries and laity. In all his interactions with church authority, catholic or otherwise, the goal was primarily to preserve the silence of the faithful at all costs, and to obtain their obedience if possible and necessary.
      • In his adult life Hitler confessed to a sort of non-denominational Christianity; he stated that he believed Jesus was a militant who was the first Aryan to take up the struggle against the Jews(!). His beliefs on this "positive Christianity" prefigure the Christian Identity movement.
      • Hitler attacked Communism explicitly on the basis of its atheism. He cast German, Nazi culture as superior because it had Christianity.
      • There's little evidence Hitler went in for all the mystical teutonic crap that people like Himmler seemed to dig. On the other hand, Hitler absolutely indulged in veneration of the dead and attaching religious significance to racial ideas.
      • Some Nazis, from time to time, would deface or attach church property, and some of the wilder types proposed banning the church or hanging swastikas from the cathedral spires. There is some evidence that Hitler himself saw this as the endgame for religion in the Third Reich, because he ultimately saw the abandonment of Judeo-Christian ethics as necessary, but concrete steps taken by him in his lifetime are scant.

      He certainly was religious, he called himself a Christian, but no non-racist Christian nowadays (and most racist ones) would recognize him as one. His religion certainly didn't motivate him, I don't think we can't put the Holocaust, let alone the 15 million or so Russian civilians murdered by the Germans, up on the deaths-caused-by-religion tote board.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    35. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      He was elected you know,

      Hitler was never elected chancellor of Germany, he was never on a proper ballot, and his party never won a mandate.

      Hitler lost his bid for Reich President in 1932 to Hindenburg; in the following year, Reichstag elections were held twice, but no party or coalition was able to secure enough votes to form a government. The Nazis never held a majority, at their greatest extent they only controlled a third of the legislature, and over 1932 their support had begun to weaken.

      At that juncture, in January 1933, Hindenburg appointed Hitler chancellor by dint of Hindenburg's presidential emergency powers. The Reichstag fire happened the next month, the Socialist and Communist parties were banned, and only then, with half the Resichstag in jail, did the Nazis manage to win a majority.

      Hitler rose to power "legally," but that does not mean he was elected or even legitimate. Sorry, I get annoyed when people repeat this old line.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    36. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      comparing world religions with hundreds of millions of followers to a commercially exploitative cult with at best a hundred thousand of nuts and fruits.

      Nobody mentioned Apple, that's not what this story is about. What the hell are you talking about?

    37. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stalin and Mao fair enough but how can you justify pegging Hitler as an atheist?

      He's been listening to Rush Limbaugh.

    38. Re:In fairness to Scientology by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Let me say first that I find Scientology repulsive and a particularly greasy form of pyramid scheme. However, compared to the Judeo-Christian-Islamic trinity, they are responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities.

      Scientology is easy to hate because it is so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. It's an easier target than Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. But if you really take a step back and look at the doctrine of those three faiths, they are equally as ridiculous.

      So the difference is quantitative not qualitatie?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    39. Re:In fairness to Scientology by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Informative

      Between those three religions you have tens of millions slaughtered in pointless wars over minor differences in doctrine.

      Man, how many times have I seen this line trotted out? For a group of people who pride yourself on free thinking (I'm assuming you're an atheist here) you certainly seem to find it hard to come up with an original argument.

      Religion has been the sole cause of zero wars. Even if you find some way to measure the relative import of the various causes, I doubt religion is up there. It's a popular way to rabble-rouse, to create an artificial divide between "us" and "them", much the same way the U.S. used "capitalism vs communism" in the cold war, or "democracy vs tyranny" in the current terrorism debate (no, they really don't hate your freedom, they hate your politics).

      Some examples that are often given:
      Crusades: Bear in mind that during this time, the Catholic church was not only a religion, but also the most powerful political entity in the west. The Muslims (or rather, the Seljuks - like the situation in the west, they were a political entity that was also officially Muslim) were expanding, and conquering territory previously held by the Catholics (including Jerusalem, which has actually conquered 400 years prior to the first crusade). The first crusades were territorial disputes between two empires who also happened to be different religions. They were motivated by land, though, not religion. Later crusades still included territorial reasons, but they were also used for political means, either to attack people who threatened the Pope's power, or to start a foreign war to prop up a weak Pope.

      Ireland: I'm just going to quote Wikipedia here, because it says it much more clearly and succinctly than I do:

      For example, there is a common perception of The Troubles in Northern Ireland as a religious conflict, as one side (Nationalists) was predominantly composed of Catholics and the other (Unionists) of Protestants. However, the more fundamental cause is the attachment of Northern Ireland to either the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom and while religion played a role as a cultural marker, the conflict was in fact ethnic or nationalistic rather than religious in nature.[3] Since the native Irish were mostly Catholic and the later British-sponsored immigrants were mainly Protestant, the terms become shorthand for the two cultures, but it is inaccurate to describe the conflict as a religious one.[3]

      Palestine: Again, I'll start with a quote from wikipedia, although this is about only a particular incident, rather than the hostilities as a whole:

      The Shaw Commission found that the fundamental cause of the violence "....is the Arab feeling of animosity and hostility towards the Jews consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future."

      Beyond that, the U.N. created the nation of Israel by decree, and basically forced the current occupants of that to make way for Jewish immigrants. Again, while the opposing factions are both of different religions, the primary causes for conflict are territoriality and political sovereignty, not religion.

      Al Qaeda and Islamic Terrorism: This one actually has the best case for it being a religious war, as one of Al Qaeda's stated missions is the construction of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. However, their other stated mission is the ending of foreign influence (notably American) in Islamic countries. It has been argued that without the United State's continual meddling in Middle Eastern politics, Al Qaeda might never have formed, or at least, not have attracted the influence it has. At best, this is an issue of both religion and political sovereignty.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    40. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 2

      What makes Stalinism and Maoism a religion? They aren't spiritual, they have no creation story, no afterlife, and they make scant demands on faith. Maoism has no scientistic dogma that I'm aware of, and while could Stalinism demand the obedience of scientists, the actual dogma they were supposed to support was arbitrary and could change on a whim.

      Neither Stalinism and Maoism has a consistent set of beliefs about the cosmos, aside from a belief in the historical imperative of Communism, and even that was deeply shaded by both Mao's and Stalin's rejection of world revolution as an ideological goal. Just because people are forced to memorize the Little Red Book, this does not make that book "religious," particularly when that book is full of expositions on humanist and materialist philosophy. If Mao's writings are religious, then so are Hegel's.

      There's also the little problem of Stalinism and Maoism lacking a God or Gods, or having novel rituals for the dead, rituals for marriage or birth. And then there's also the problem that nobody actually believes in either of these anymore, even in the course of their own lifetime. Religions aren't a fad, they don't just burn into popularity over the course of a decade and then suddenly disappear, leaving even the believers bewildered and in denial. That's just not what a religion is. That's sort of the biggest case against these being a religion -- what little people did believe of them, they accepted on account of constant, terrible coercion. Once the threat disappeared, so did all the mental furniture. Religions don't work like that, people accept religion freely and without duress, given the definitions of these within the prevailing cultural hegemony. (This is actually a pretty good reason to believe Scientology isn't a religion, either.)

      There are plenty of reasons to hate Maoism and Stalinism without tarring it as religious, and plenty of reasons to hate religion without tarring it by association with the Great Leap Forward. Your use of the terminology is overkill.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    41. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you don't realise that there is one thing in common with all of these religions as you so aptly put it; and that is that they are all full of people and it is the people who do the crime and give the faith a bad name, Christianity believes in a God who creates, who loves, who saves, and who heals, but also a God of justice, Islam believes in in a God of revenge and ethnic cleansing. Scientology is man made lunacy. I think if you want pass judgement on these beliefs you need to study their texts not the news papers who write what they want how they want to affect the people they want to make the change that they want with out regard for truth. You Say Judaism but have you studied it, you say Christianity but have you read the bible, and Islam have you actually read the Koran. Islam doesn't believe in a triune God, Judaism believes in the Christ but not in a trinity, it believes in the LAW not salvation through Christ.
      If you are going to make a public rebutle of anything get your facts straight and don't just rant rubbish. It is easy to criticise from behind the key board, but get out and have a look at the work that real Christians are doing in the world. Saving lives, building houses for the homeless, drilling bores for the starving in Ethiopia so they at least have water. Working as doctors without pay to bring medicine to the destitute. But oh no the world only wants to know about the atrocities committed by a few that every body sees. How many murders are committed in the world every day by jealous partners over sexual digression, but do we criticise sex no the world promotes it as free and exciting but it is the reason more people get sick and get hurt than any other reason. So I find your reasoning piontless and shallow.

    42. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nethead · · Score: 1

      Quit trying to defend Catholicism. They are much more evil than that.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    43. Re:In fairness to Scientology by hey! · · Score: 1

      Actually, I think most of the problem is being threatened by what other people think. If you could fix that a lot of the world's evils would go away.

      There's the fear of people who don't think the same way you do, of course, but what we're seeing here is the same thing that allowed the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal to reach epic scale: fear of what other people think of us. If you give in to those kinds of fears, it actually doesn't matter *what* you believe, because your actions aren't going to have anything to do with your beliefs. That's why people kill in the name of peace, shelter child abusers in the name of teaching morality, or censor in the name of liberty.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    44. Re:In fairness to Scientology by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      e. You have sexism that runs deep through the dogma of all three. You have churches who have officially sanctioned everything from genocide to sexually abusing children to slavery. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. I can find examples in the last century where each of these religions has committed terrible atrocities

      Those crimes are human in nature, and are not relegated to a particular religion (or set of religions)

    45. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You would be wrong.

      Stalin and Mao were the gods of their religion built around a cult of personality and unwavering faith in authority and righteousness.

      If you really believe that, then you would be sayng that Atheism is a religion, too. Is that really where you want to go?

    46. Re:In fairness to Scientology by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      Er, they are a religion. They worship common gods, they have certain principles to comply with. How else would you define a religion?

    47. Re:In fairness to Scientology by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Religions don't commit acts, people do. And for the three religions you listed, anyone can claim to be a member, regardless of how unorthodox his beliefs are.

    48. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The vast majority of religious sects DO burn out in one or two generations following the death of their prophet. There are probably over 100 thousand cults and sects right now and the majority of them are less than a hundred years old. They rise and fall, mutate, evolve, and spawn spontaneously from the minds of prophets. Only a handful of religions stick around for the long haul, and most of them branch, merge and change radically over time.

      Religion does not have to have a specific set of beliefs about the cosmos, or particular classes of rituals, morality or even a belief in the supernatural. Each one will have different dogmas that focus on different things.

      Again, deities are not required for religion. Many faiths do not venerate gods. And in the case of Mao (more than Stalin or Lenin, but they did get some of this as well) the prophet is deified and worshiped.

      You can not honestly claim that religion is accepted freely and without duress. For millennium conversion at the point of a sword was the standard operating procedure. Children are brainwashed before they have formed independent thought. People at the end of their rope are offered the illusion of salvation while in a compromised and impressionable mental state. And individuals converted by the inordinate amount of influence by spouses and lovers.

      Religion is fundamentally a memetic complex that takes advantage of the mental illness of faith to infect and compromise the minds of a population. Another defining characteristic is that the complex changes thought processes and behaviors of its hosts to propagate itself and resist competitive memes even if it is harmful to the host or the population to which it belongs. This often results in faith so strong that ignorance and acceptance of objectively wrong (both logically and morally) behaviors becomes routine. Religion is a virus of the mind and the prophet of every religion is patient zero.

      Both Maoism and Stalinism have exactly those characteristics. There is no fundamental difference between the non-magical irrational faith and devotion and magical irrational faith and devotion.

    49. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, I'd mod you up.

    50. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      You would be wrong.

      There is no infectious nature to atheism. There is no faith. There is no ignorance. There is no irrationality. There is no dogma.

      The vast majority of atheists simply sit on the side of the evidence. There is no objective reproducible evidence for the existence of gods or supernatural effects and plenty of contradictory objective reproducible evidence respective to supernatural effects, so those are not something that should be believed in.

    51. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Tom · · Score: 1

      In comparing numbers of dead, never forget to scale for total population. For example, the total death toll of the crusades is estimated at about 200,000 - but then, the total world population at the time is estimated at 250-300 mio. people. So you'd have to kill at least 5 mio. today to get rid of the same percentage of the population.

      Wikipedia has a nice list you can sort by percentage:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    52. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Tom · · Score: 1

      I just noticed they have the crusades with a much higher death toll there. So much for quick sourcing on the Internet. Anyway, the main argument doesn't rest on the numbers.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    53. Re:In fairness to Scientology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      You DO know that MODERN POPULATIONS in both Russia and China were vastly greater when Stalin and Mao did their thing, and killing technology was far more ADVANCED, than when superstitionists went on their sprees long before?

      Different times mean different levels of opportunity.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    54. Re:In fairness to Scientology by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      That's more or less what everyone says about the crazies who killed in the name of [insert religion here].

    55. Re:In fairness to Scientology by TarPitt · · Score: 1

      Only because they had more efficient methods for killing masses of unbelievers, and the record keeping system to track all their murders precisely.

      Also the USSR and China committed their murders in recent history, while the 30 years war was long enough ago to neglect:

      So great was the devastation brought about by the war that estimates put the reduction of population in the German states at about 25% to 40%.[54] Some regions were affected much more than others.[55] For example, Württemberg lost three-quarters of its population during the war.[56] In the territory of Brandenburg, the losses had amounted to half, while in some areas an estimated two-thirds of the population died.[57] The male population of the German states was reduced by almost half.[58] The population of the Czech lands declined by a third due to war, disease, famine and the expulsion of Protestant Czechs.[59][60]

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war

      This was accomplished without machine guns, poison gas, or railroads to transport the victims. This is the cruelty Christianity created with 15th century technology.

      Wars such as this, given the technology for mass murder available, easily match the killers of the 20th century. They happened in the name of Christian faith, and are proof of the brutality of the Christian religion.

      --
      If your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd murder you in your sleep
    56. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Truedat · · Score: 1

      Christianity 1.0 maybe but version 2.0 is a lot tamer. With Islam it seems to be the other way round.

    57. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to broaden your thought process, because those things are all mixed and belong in the very same box.

    58. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Kergan · · Score: 1

      Scientology is a lot of things -- scam, dangerous cult, organized crime -- but one thing it is not is a religion.

      What makes christianity a religion more than scientology?

      Any organization with preachers who put forward baseless ideas that followers need to faithfully accept, deserves the religious label. (And yes, that definition correctly includes most if not all political parties.)

    59. Re:In fairness to Scientology by KarlIsNotMyName · · Score: 1

      No, religion doesn't cause war, but it is a very good way to unify people behind your case, whatever you're trying to get them to do.

      --
      We are all God's parents.
    60. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You would be wrong.

      There is no infectious nature to atheism. There is no faith. There is no ignorance. There is no irrationality. There is no dogma.

      The vast majority of atheists simply sit on the side of the evidence. There is no objective reproducible evidence for the existence of gods or supernatural effects and plenty of contradictory objective reproducible evidence respective to supernatural effects, so those are not something that should be believed in.

      Secular humanism could be viewed just as much a "religion" as Stalin and Mao being the gods of their religion and for the same reasons you posted previously.

      As for atheists sitting on the side of evidence, just as there is no objective reproducible evidence for the existence gods or supernatural effects, there is no objective evidence showing the non-existance. So, atheists really don't sit on the side of evidence, because there is no evidence, one way or the other. Now atheists can claim, that since there is no evidence of gods or the supernatural, they do not believe, etc. But that position cannot be claimed on the evidence.

      The fault in your reasoning is a simple one. If it is raining and you don't have an umbrella, you will get wet does not mean that if you do not have an umbrella you will get wet (as it might not be raining). Likewise, lack of scientific proof that a deity exists does not mean that a deity does not exist.

    61. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      In comparing numbers of dead, never forget to scale for total population. For example, the total death toll of the crusades is estimated at about 200,000 - but then, the total world population at the time is estimated at 250-300 mio. people. So you'd have to kill at least 5 mio. today to get rid of the same percentage of the population.

      Wikipedia has a nice list you can sort by percentage:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

      The crusades were a direct response to Muslim aggression--an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands. Islam had invaded and conquered 2/3 of the christian lands, all the way up into Spain. Yes, there were two empires that were theocratic involved in the crusades, however they were not about religion, but territory. That does not mean that both sides were not brutal. It simply means that the crusades were not a religious war, but a political war and ethnic cleansing. As most scholars of history point out, it is important to distinquish between the christian church in terms of religion and the Holy Roman Empire, which was an administrative and political entity.

    62. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You DO know that MODERN POPULATIONS in both Russia and China were vastly greater when Stalin and Mao did their thing, and killing technology was far more ADVANCED, than when superstitionists went on their sprees long before?

      Different times mean different levels of opportunity.

      So you are justifying what Stalin and Mao did because it occurred in modern times with modern weapons and they had greater opportunity to kill and imprison?

    63. Re:In fairness to Scientology by legojenn · · Score: 1

      I think that it was Julian Morrow and it might have been a gullibility test.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBDDOMfcx8I

      --
      I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
    64. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      While wikepeida does state that the 30 years war was initially a religous war between protestants and catholics, that was for the entire duration. In addition, what is not made clear is that it was the German princes (who were mainly protestant) pushing back against the Holy Roman Empire, which of course was Catholic. In reality, it was not a war over religion, but over political power. The German princes wanted to be free of roman rule and the romans wanted to maintain that rule. This is similar today with the middle east. The conflict between Isreal and the Palestinians, although having religious overtones, is not actually a religious conflict, put a political one.

    65. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they had a late start.

      I'm not sure whether this is the entire reason or not - i.e. whether Scientology has done more evil than, say, Christianity had done at the equivalent point in its history. But it's doing it at a point in history in which we have higher standards of behaviour, so it's a lot more noticeable. (And we have a better chance of drawing attention to and stopping it.)

    66. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So basically, you've stripped every concrete, commonsense dictionary definition out of religion in order to make it conform to your understanding of Stalinism. You've made your definition of religion so broad and post-modern that it robs it of any usefulness. Apply your definition to Stalinism and it's a religion, apply it to Catholicism and it's a religion, apply it to the Atkins diet, Apple fanboys, manual transmission drivers and Parade magazine subscribers and behold, all of these suddenly become religions.

      This is the typical pose of the ignorant atheist -- "religion is anything other people fall for."

      Religion is fundamentally a memetic complex that takes advantage of the mental illness of faith to infect and compromise the minds of a population.

      I'm not religious, or faithful, or anything, but I know bigotry when I see it, and saying religious people are "mentally ill" or "compromised" is bigotry.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    67. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.

      Time and again, the specific claims that form the core of religious belief have been struck down by reason and experimentation.

      It is a very extraordinary claim to propose that the only ultimately untestable and unfalsifiable claims made by religion are true in spite of the bulk of religious beliefs having been proven to be false.

      There is no fault is saying I do not believe there is a god because there is no evidence of it. There is also no fault in saying there may be something like a god in-spite of the fact that the vast vast majority of religious dogma is objectively false.

      Secular Humanism specifically rejects faith in favor of rationality. It is therefore not a religion by any reasonable definition.

    68. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      This isn't bigotry. It is truth. And the truth isn't always a happy thing.

      Compromised is a very good term for the state of mind of someone infected with religion. It alters brains chemistry and structure. It impairs the ability to think rationally. Most religions also come with an arbitrary alternate set of moral concepts that may conflict with rational morality, allowing people to commit horrific acts against others and feel good about it: child abuse, rape, brainwashing, torture, murder, genocide, etc.

      What do you call it when someone believes two things that objectively contradict each other at the same time? What do you call it when someone insists on retaining a belief even when confronted with absolute proof that the belief is false? That is a cognitive dissonance that a healthy mind should not be capable of. Faith is a mental illness and no amount of whitewashing will change that.

      Apple fanboys may be a religion. They do hold on to irrational beliefs in the face of contrary evidence based on the dogma of their prophet. However I do not see much evidence that mac fanboyism is particularly infectious.

      Atkins dieters are not a religion. The diet works or it does not, it is testable. For it to become a religion, it would have to be wrong and people to still hold on to faith in it.

      I have no idea where you get the idea that there is any measure of faith in manual transmission drivers or Parade magazine subscriber. You have completely lost me.

      You have repeatedly been making statements about religion that do not stand to even the slightest scrutiny. Question what you believe. Do some research. Come back when you have something more substantial to present. I'm not going to continue arguing with you unless you can bring something interesting to the table.

    69. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      He may have lived in fear, that is irrelevant. He certainly attempted to make his own cult. That he failed is irrelevant. The only staying power of Kim Il-Sung is the fact that the Kim 3 has maintained it, probably because his own personality is considerably weaker.

      Last point: if someone is offended by the comparison, perhaps they should seriously look into their own cult... err "faith".

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    70. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, what you say is true about Stalinism and Maoism, but you ignore the important lesson that Maoism and Stalinism teaches us: atheism does not make us immune from the evils of "irrational" faith and devotion. These are flat-out counter-examples to the atheist claim that "Belief in God is the source of all evil".

      I put irrational in quotes, because a lot of rational thought goes into faith and devotion. To this day, entire lines of logical thought goes into Communism, for example. Admittedly, they don't like people looking closely at their assumptions; but then, this is also an important lesson: intelligent, rational people can believe in all sorts of things; learning to avoid the destructive memes, is perhaps more imperative than deciding whether or not God exists.

      So far, the only rule of thumb I have is this: if a meme is destructive of our basic, inalienable rights to Life, Liberty, Property, and the Pursuit of Happiness, then it is destructive, period. Hence, Witch-hunting had a heavy toll in mainland Europe but left England relatively unscathed (because England, at the time, had certain Common Law notions that protected Life, Liberty and Property that Europe simply did not have), and Communism, and Socialism in general had a very heavy toll in all the countries that embraced those policies, and continue to embrace them today.

    71. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      I think you're confusing atheism and agnosticism. Most atheists are science fan bois who believe there is no god without any evidence to prove their point.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    72. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Secular Humanism specifically rejects faith in favor of rationality. It is therefore not a religion by any reasonable definition.

      Isn't that the point that the guy was making -- that to say that USSR and China ideologies were "religions" would mean you'd have to say that Secular Humanism was, too? I don't think he/she was meaning that it actually was a religion, but used in response to a prior poster''s comment.

    73. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      Maoism and Stalinism failed to reject faith and dogma, they merely replaced traditional trappings and dogma of religion with those men, their authority and ideology as the central elements and articles of faith. That is almost entirely unlike secular humanism. So no, calling Maoism and Stalinism religion does not mean I would have to say that secular humanism is too because they are very different things.

    74. Re:In fairness to Scientology by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't religion, the problem is mankind.

      True, but advocate eliminating the problem and suddenly you're the bad guy...

      "Mankind is something that must be overcome." - Nietzsche

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    75. Re:In fairness to Scientology by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      That is a cognitive dissonance that a healthy mind should not be capable of.

      I think my main issue here is that you're stigmatizing religion as a disfunction or disease. If you decided that cognitive dissonance is a disease, something everybody does and really constitutes a fundamental feature of human consciousness, what are you prepared to do to cure it? We lock up people with mental disorders, even those that don't pose an immediate threat to themselves can be involuntarily committed for violent ideation. Are we going to lock up the religious? The veneration of the crucifix is violent ideation, maybe we should lock Christians up?

      While we're at it, the Bible clearly is central to the spread of this "meme," it's little more than a viral creche, so we should burn them? People who publicly speak of their beliefs are also disease vectors should also be contained, yes?

      I get your (nominal) commitment to reason, but what about your commitment to freedom of thought and expression? That something is "illogical" is never sufficient ground to censure it. You cast your definition so broadly that I doubt the world you propose could sustain any kind of faith, or most forms of art, or even most kinds of moral philosophy. Ironically, this sort of thinking takes you to Marxism-Leninism, and its prohibitions on religion, in favor of its own privileged definitions of "rationality."

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    76. Re:In fairness to Scientology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      You aren't making a complete comparison.

      The USSR and China were modern systems and as as such able to use modern killing methods and modern communications and modern organizational methods to slay their opponents.

      Hand a "Pope Innocent III" machine guns and breechloading rifles, and "God" would know a lot more of "his own".

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    77. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      You aren't making a complete comparison.

      The USSR and China were modern systems and as as such able to use modern killing methods and modern communications and modern organizational methods to slay their opponents.

      Hand a "Pope Innocent III" machine guns and breechloading rifles, and "God" would know a lot more of "his own".

      God might know but for the rest of us it is pure speculation -- that plus it is physically and therefore scientifically impossible to ever know what Innocent III may have done or not.

      In addition, as others have posted, the cursades were not about religon, but territory. Specifically reclaiming what was previously taken. While catholicism was the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire, the Pope was also a political ruler and it is important to separate the actions of state from the action of the church. (never thought I would be defending the catholics!).

    78. Re:In fairness to Scientology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Nothing I said JUSTIFIED it. Read again, slowly...

      I am pointing out that the main reason for their high body counts was that they had technology old-time superstitionists did not.

      Religions got most of their mass murder done well before secular influences reduced their stabby habits.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    79. Re:In fairness to Scientology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "it is important to separate the actions of state from the action of the church" because the church says so?

      All superstition is politics. All superstitionists are political actors with imaginary friends. Religion requires power, and taking territory spreads it effectively.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    80. Re:In fairness to Scientology by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "scam, dangerous cult, organized crime -- but one thing it is not is a religion."

      None of those singly or in combination exclude religion.

      Cults are merely less-popular religions.

      Stop defending religion. Superstition is indefensible in modern times.
      Either prove your Sky Fairie (if you have one) exists and I'll recant and grovel before his/her/its Noodly Appendage, or drop the nonsense.

      "Scientology is not a religion by any reasonable definition of the term."

      Have some Oxford English Dictionary definitions, many of which fit Scientology:

      http://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/161944

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    81. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Actually what you are trying to say is that religous would have killed a lot more if they had todays weapons. We have no way of knowing if that would be true or not. We do know that there were other non-religous groups that did much harm, such as the Huns, the Visigoths and any number of other groups, so it seems that brutality is not something specific to religion, but to the time in question.

    82. Re:In fairness to Scientology by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Lots of generalisations in that very circular argument. Growing up, we had the rhyme "Don't step on the crack, break the devil's back." and we avoided stepping on the cracks in the sidewalk. Please explain the politics of that superstition, or throwing salt over one's shoulder or knocking on wood. A baseball player wearing a specific pair of socks, or shaking a rally cap seems to be non-political, too.

      As such, not all supertition is politics which then counters the rest of your argument. Religion does not require any more power than any other belief does.

  7. Why is 'church' in quotes? by vistic · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's not like the church you think doesn't need quotes is any more valid than this 'church' which you think needs quotes.

    1. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      I want to know why people keep claiming that these two got a divorce.

      "Apparently, the recent very public divorce of...."

      No divorce has been granted.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by natophonic · · Score: 5, Funny

      Because any 'religion' with an eschatology that reads like (bad) science fiction is illegitimate and false. A true religion has an eschatology that reads like a dragons and wizards epic fantasy.

    3. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      And lots of begotting.

    4. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by PRMan · · Score: 1
      Or, you could be the one that's mistaken. That's why the Bible is the best-selling book of all time and every year:

      The familiar observation that the Bible is the best-selling book of all time obscures a more startling fact: the Bible is the best-selling book of the year, every year. Calculating how many Bibles are sold in the United States is a virtually impossible task, but a conservative estimate is that in 2005 Americans purchased some twenty-five million Bibles—twice as many as the most recent Harry Potter book. The amount spent annually on Bibles has been put at more than half a billion dollars.

      But other research has found that ninety-one per cent of American households own at least one Bible—the average household owns four—which means that Bible publishers manage to sell twenty-five million copies a year of a book that almost everybody already has.

      It's OK if you haven't figured out yet what everyone else has, God is patient...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    5. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by DigiShaman · · Score: 2

      The quote reiterate it's in name-only for those who otherwise might not understand. The 'Church' of Scientology is nothing more than a pyramid scheme formed under the auspicious of a religion so that it may enjoy tax breaks from the IRS. Pure and simple!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    6. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by pitchpipe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not like the church you think doesn't need quotes is any more valid than this 'church' which you think needs quotes.

      Well see, if you go to a 'church' you believe in silly things like Xenu dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of his people to Earth in a DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and killed them using hydrogen bombs.

      But if you go to a church, you believe in completely unsilly and credible things like a god who created us to worship him, but is really going to throw most of us into a burning lake of fire to be tortured for ever and ever because he loves us unconditionally, and well... He really tried to prevent this from happening by lovingly being born of a virgin so he could sacrifice himself to himself so that we could be forgiven for our sins against him (which we've all comitted because someone ate a forbidden fruit a long time ago), and the he tried warn us by sending all kinds of really sane, down to earth people to tell us that this was going to happen. Oh, and no trace of him has ever been found. You believe all of this because other people told you, so it must be true.

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    7. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by AlienIntelligence · · Score: 4, Funny

      I want to know why people keep claiming that these two got a divorce.

      "Apparently, the recent very public divorce of...."

      No divorce has been granted.

      The same reason we refer to the vagina when we actually mean vulva.

      Wait, that's probably not a good analogy on /.

      -AI

      --
      For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion
    8. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by fredgiblet · · Score: 1

      Of those, how many actually get read? We have 3 or 4 where I live, no one's touched them for probably close to a decade. The only time we touched them then saw for the comics that one of them had inserted into them. I'll bet you that there was more man-hours put into reading Harry Potter than the Bible in the US in 2005

    9. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by WhitePanther5000 · · Score: 2

      I think the trouble with being a critical thinker, or an atheist, or a humanist is that you're right.
      And it's quite hard being right in the face of people who are wrong without sounding like a fuckwit.
      People go "do you think the vast majority of the world is wrong?"
      Well yes... I don't know how to say that nicely, but yes.

      --Tim Minchin

    10. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by WhitePanther5000 · · Score: 1

      Sounds kinda like a typical monotheistic religion to me.

    11. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Bible publishers manage to sell twenty-five million copies a year of a book that almost everybody already has.

      The pages are thin and make good rolling paper, dude.

    12. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So full of win!

    13. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by amicusNYCL · · Score: 1

      The same reason we refer to the vagina when we actually mean vulva.

      This is why we have "pussy".

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    14. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HA, Christianity has about 1/3rd of the worlds population everyone is rather an exaggeration here. The trend for belief in general is not upward either, at least in the developed world, education and the thinking time which comes with relative prosperity seem to be corrosive to religion. Still I have 3 bibles given to me by relatives and I have been given more than 8 in my life that is more than one every 3 years I have lived and I am not religious any more ...... so your statistic says nothing about the number of actual believers.

    15. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    16. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by fatphil · · Score: 2

      No, I believe it because it's written in the Bible, and the bible is the infallable word of God, so must be true.

      (And yes, there are irony tags around that, it's a failed attempt at parody. I say "failed", as it's not a humerous distortion, it's exactly what some christains say.)

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
    17. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by bky1701 · · Score: 1

      O save us from evil, Lord ManwÃ!

    18. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wacky story behind Scientology remind me of the recent study of Nigerian scam letters - they both are so off the wall that only the most gullible persons fall for them.

      Which makes me want to be the financial manager to these Hollywood stars that are happily throwing their millions to this crap.

      "Oh yes, Tom - this investment simply does NOT provide any returns unless you pay a 47% commission to this little magic company in the Cayman Islands that only I know about..."

    19. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by Requiem18th · · Score: 1

      Scientology is a "church" because they use copyrights to control and restrict the distribution of their text for which they charge a small fortune. And because they are secretive about their practices and what they do to their members. While I agree that all religions are fictional and silly and many of them very unhealthy, they at least are very open about their practices and do not try to hide. The fact that Scientology operates in the shadows suggest to many that it, and it's leaders, are far less like regular churches and much more like con jobs.

      --
      But... the future refused to change.
    20. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by vistic · · Score: 1

      Sure it's off the wall and only for gullible people... but do you think early Christianity, or any religion, wasn't?

      Give it a few thousand years and people might be saying this new XYZ religion is obviously crazy, and not like the respectable air and tradition about Christianity or Scientology. Look at how mainstream LDS is already... we have a presidential candidate.

    21. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by vistic · · Score: 1

      I fail to see how con jobs and churches are at all mutually exclusive. There are countless examples of people getting ripped off in the name of Jesus. It has no bearing on how much of a church it is or not.

    22. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by vistic · · Score: 1

      So once a work of fiction becomes popular, it becomes true? I guess this is the point you were trying to make? Just to be clear....

    23. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      Patient?

      He condemned humanity for *eternity* because they ate a fruit that they had no way of knowing was "bad" because he hadn't given them the knowledge of good and evil yet.

      He sent bears to maul children for calling some dude bald.

      He killed every living thing on the planet, except for what Noah was able to stuff on his ark. (and fish, presumably ... though one wonders how the saltwater fish survived the sudden decrease in salinity)

      Patient. That's rich.

      Anyway, Xenu makes even less sense, so at least you have that to hang your hat on.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
  8. So the $cientologists want a war with the internet by mmell · · Score: 1

    Talk about a mouse messin' with a gorilla! Go get 'em, boys!

  9. Re:Gossip for Nerds, Stuff that's irrelavant by elrous0 · · Score: 4, Informative

    How soon we nerds forget Scientology's war against the internet back in the day.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. Blog is not accurate by jklovanc · · Score: 3, Informative

    I am not a Scientologist and would never join a religion purported to be created on a bet.

    The blog takes quotes from the Scientology post out of context. It talkes bout clicking on the report tag and what to write but ignores the this intermediary step;

    4. Read the comment from people and pick the ones that fit the violation of the Code of Conduct.

    Where the blog post states that the Scientologists are directed to report all anti-Scientology comments they are actually directed to report only the ones that really brear the Code of Conduct.

    One final comment; Has the existence of this email been confirmed by an independent source? I would be suspect of anything reported by someone who has a bias against an organization without independent verification. That is one reason I generally don't read blogs; they have a tendency to be unverified and very biased..

    1. Re:Blog is not accurate by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Any "anti-Scientology" comment is by Scientology's definition, a breach of any and all Codes of Conduct. Even if factually true, all statements that Scientology doesn't like are "religious discrimination, hate-speech, bigotry and downright criminal".

    2. Re:Blog is not accurate by shentino · · Score: 1

      So basically it's selective prosecution.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the site hosting the comment has their legal department contacted with a "delete this comment and ban the user who posted it or we will sue your ass off in court" type threat.

      When someone has a big lawsuit pointed at you, taking advantage of the "we reserve the right to delete anything or ban anybody" clause in their TOS gets awfully tempting.

    3. Re:Blog is not accurate by shentino · · Score: 1

      Not really.

      All scientology has to do is say "delete it or we'll sue"

      And most blog sites have legal boilerplate that says "we can delete what we want"

    4. Re:Blog is not accurate by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      It is true a threat could come from Scientology's legal council but that is not what is being discussed. We are discussing rank and file using the report function on the posting site. They are very different issues. Had the blog mentions the advice to "Read the comment from people and pick the ones that fit the violation of the Code of Conduct" and then stated that Scientologist consider any comment against the church to be "religious discrimination, hate-speech, bigotry and downright criminal" we would have had a chance to agree or disagree with the statement. Without that statement it appears that the Scientologist powers are advising to report every comment that is negative toward Scientology.

      The point I was trying to make was the blog did not give the complete story and slanted it to their interpretation. Selective quoting out of context is bad no matter what the subject. It is like someone saying "Anyone who would rape women should be castrated" and having it shortened to "rape women".

      And still there is no verification that this email was not made up by Mark Rathbun

    5. Re:Blog is not accurate by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Gee, no. First, these are not official requests from the Church of Scientology, these are supposed to be individual, personal requests from Scientologists. Second, even if these takedown requests were from Scientology, their threats have been proven to be, for the most part, bogus. Third, websites that host user comments have learned how to react to attempts to censor criticism and do not automatically remove comments -- especially from chronic abusers like Scientology.

      And fourth, looking at the websites, Scientology criticism is not being removed, so it isn't working.

  11. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Talk about a mouse messin' with a gorilla! Go get 'em, boys!

    The beauty of this is you only need one jpeg image of the mask, rather than buying them by the container ship.

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  12. Re:no need to worry... by ackthpt · · Score: 1

    Well, there goes Tom's $1.00 donation to UNICEF this Halloween ...

    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  13. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Informative

    They've done it before. They were pretty successful, too.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  14. Please delete this story by Ecuador · · Score: 5, Funny

    It obviously violates the Slashdot code of conduct.
    It is not related to bitcoin or raspberry pi, it is not a dupe and has links to multiple articles that have a lot of text per page, requiring very few, if any, "next page" clicks. It might fool some that it has merit to be on slashdot by being a rather lame story that might appeal to people who like getting pissed at reading stories they don't consider "news for nerds", but I am sure you will agree that that alone is not enough.

    --
    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    1. Re:Please delete this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, it will be a dupe soon enough.

    2. Re:Please delete this story by WiiVault · · Score: 1

      Bravo sir.

    3. Re:Please delete this story by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      If I may suggest a replacement submission: "Can Scientology courses be paid in Bitcoin?"

    4. Re:Please delete this story by fatphil · · Score: 1

      There is precedent.

      OT3 was posted to slashdot some time in 2001 by an A/C. CoS requested it be deleted, and /. did that. It was the first ever time they'd folded to such a request. They saved face by posting a whole load of links to other places where CoS nonsense was revealed.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  15. Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism,etc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are all religions.

  16. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by SuricouRaven · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We already did that. The internet won. The direct damage to the CoS was just a minor annoyance, but the social media saturation exposing so many of the sordid stories told by ex-members and leaked documents destroyed their reputation to the point that they are impossible to take seriously any more. It seriously hurt their recruitment efforts.

  17. Worst defamation of them all by Teun · · Score: 1
    The worst defamation I could imagine is claiming someone to be a member of that gang called scientology.

    I'm a proud owner of the Xs4all & Karin Spaink vs. Scientology 1-0 shirt.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    1. Re:Worst defamation of them all by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Respect!

      I have no precise memory why I added you as a friend on /., save it being repeated high quality posts, but it's nice to know that my radar spots sound people.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  18. It seems to be working very well by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

    No one I know or care about has talked to me about this outstanding and important event.
    The censors got to all of them first, it seems.

  19. It's not alone! by krashnburn200 · · Score: 0

    I wonder what the cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster will look like in fifty years.... Dun dun dun....

    1. Re:It's not alone! by JohnnyLocust · · Score: 1

      I wonder what the cult of the Flying Spaghetti Monster will look like in fifty years.... Dun dun dun....

      Comparing the two is silly. In Pastafarian, the holiest men are Pirates. In Scientology, they are Sea Captians. Hmmm....

    2. Re:It's not alone! by krashnburn200 · · Score: 1

      It had begun... Pastafarians, once, could laugh with you... Now they already have their followers out down-modding me Troll

      The future is here

  20. The church of the Streisand effect

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  21. I can hear the LOICs powering up by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    The anons will really like this...

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    1. Re:I can hear the LOICs powering up by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Are you another one who doesn't remember that Project Chanology achieved basically nothing?

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  22. It's not censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the 'church' has decided to encourage its followers to censor online chatter and comments

    Be careful about the word "censor". Only the government can censor.

    If a non-governmental entity is engaging in something that you want to call "censorship", it is actually exercising its right to define and control its speech.

    For example, if the owner of a religious web blog wants to delete reader-submitted responses that attack their religion, it is crucially important that the owner be allowed to do so. Confused people may proclaim that it's "censorship", but that proclamation doesn't make it so.

    In this case, people are submitting requests for certain posts to be deleted. The owners of those sites need absolute freedom to heed or ignore such requests. It's not helpful when confused people cry "censorship" when they see others exercising their freedoms.

    1. Re:It's not censorship by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 2

      No, actually - any group with the power over a communication channel can censor. It doesn't have to be a government; it could just as readily be a broadcast network, a news paper, or even the self. All that is required is the ability to choose what may or may not be said. Censorship by any entitity, when there is a reasonable expectation of free communication, is egregious.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
    2. Re:It's not censorship by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Be careful about the word "censor". Only the government can censor.

      I take it that you are only too eager to welcome your new corporate overlords?

      Scientology believes that it can use the ubiquitous "Report this post as offensive" links to disrupt the free speech rights of others. I sincerely hope that it fails.

    3. Re:It's not censorship by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually - any group with the power over a communication channel can censor.

      Wow, there really is a lot of ignorance about this -- both you and the person who modded you up.

      Please read up on this. Only the government can censor. You may need to consult a law reference to get correct information about this.

  23. Church of Scientology members are a bunch of twits by nurb432 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Censor me you assholes. Go on, i dare you.

    The entire thing is a huge scam designed to suck peoples wealth dry with a bunch of lies.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  24. Oh Tee! by Nethead · · Score: 5, Funny

    Not nary two years ago I stood upon a roof top in Clearwater FL as a superhero of justice (network engineer) alongside my sidekick (general contractor) and peered (as we setup a Clearwire cell site) upon all those that had dedicated 1,000,000,000,000 years of their existence to serving the word of Mr. L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer of some modest renown. We, in aghast awe, watched as they boarded their numerous bus vehicles to travel far to partake in what we would call lunch. What manor of noontime evil feast, we could not imagine. For they looked grim and uninspired.

    I bared my being to him at that time and allowed that for some short time in the early 80s I had once myself, this bastion of all that is right with network protocols, had fallen suspect to the siren cry of their teachings I related the trial and tribulations of having to buy their manuscripts and attend communication training (which, sadly, they did not impart the truth of a single RFC.)
    Fortunately I escaped by the narrowest means of not having enough money to buy the next book. For ages (about 2 hours) I beat my brow over not having the manly integrity to fight through my engrams and discover the universal truths of the Xemu protocol (RFC-infinity) and thereby understand, just my laying the wires upon my tongue, the truth of every communication protocol in the universe.

    But now that I've gone through deprogramming I'm much better.

    Now just if we could get everyone that believes in sky faeries to take deprogramming.

    --
    -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    1. Re:Oh Tee! by Nethead · · Score: 2

      Sorry about the prose above. I was watching The Tick at the time.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    2. Re:Oh Tee! by illumastorm · · Score: 1

      No need to apologize, The Tick is awesome. I re-read your post in The Tick's voice and i became even more awesome.

  25. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Except Scientology isn't, its a pyramid/litigious scheme passed off as one..

    At least a real religion has faith, these jokers only have cash and attorneys.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  26. Did you never hear of Usenet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Bogus claims of network abuse to try and falsely get people disconnected have been standard practice since the first day that the first scientologist got online. It's a dangerous cult, folks.

  27. only one. by bored_engineer · · Score: 1

    Well, I don't know what they're worried about. Apparently, the church's office of special affairs feels that

    people [are] start[ing] to spread false datum.

    What's one small little bit of information, compared to the bullshit spewed by Hubbard. I read on some anti-scientology site a while back that Hubbard suggested that inventing a religion would be a better way to make money than writing fiction.

    1. Re:only one. by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Widely believed, as hearsay from several independent sources who would have talked to Hubbard about such things, but never written down:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_controversies#L._Ron_Hubbard_and_starting_a_religion_for_money

      The final letter in that section is quite telling, proving that he migrated his money-making from being a non-religion to being a religion.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  28. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  29. Frank Zappa was right by jamrock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "The difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own." — Frank Zappa

    1. Re:Frank Zappa was right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Straight from the guy who recorded a hilarious album (Joe's Garage) mocking Scientology-- err... "Appliantology."

    2. Re:Frank Zappa was right by SternisheFan · · Score: 2

      George Carlin once said something like, "I believe in the 11th commandment. Keep thine own religion to thineself!"

    3. Re:Frank Zappa was right by LordLucless · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Cult" is one of those words that used to have a meaning, but has been so thoroughly divorced from its roots through perjorative use, that it now has no more actual meaning than any other curse word.

      A "cult" was originally a subset of a religion; it was most applicable to pantheistic religions (like ancient Greek religion). You'd have, within the overall religious framework, the "cult of Diana" or "the cult of Dionysus". They were all part of the same religion, but there were specific rituals and observances that related to specific deities within that framework.

      Within the rise of monotheism, "cult" became a lot less useful as a term. It basically came to mean a "branch" off of an existing religion, that is, a subset of religious believe that eventually came to be a distinct religion - you can see the similarity between this and its original meaning. Thus, Christianity would be a cult of Judaism, and Islam would be a cult of Christianity, as would Mormonism, Protestantism and the Latter-Day Saints.

      Of course, the dominant religion doesn't like it when people break away from it (see: the inquisition), so at this time, cult began to take on a negative connotation. Previously, it had been purely descriptive. Cults were outlawed (the church at this time was a political player, so it had the power to do this), disbanded and demonised. Over time, the church's political power waned, and it no longer had the opportunity to squash its cults.

      Nowadays, the perjorative connotation of the word "cult" is about all that remains. Technically, Christianity is still a cult of Judaism, but nobody (except atheists pushing the "all religions are cults" agenda) really describes it that way (and even the atheists are just using it as a perjorative, not in the technical sense).

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    4. Re:Frank Zappa was right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The alternative is: being big changes everything.

    5. Re:Frank Zappa was right by Nugoo · · Score: 1

      Don't we have the word 'sect' that now means what 'cult' did?

      --
      I explicitly release the above into the public domain.
    6. Re:Frank Zappa was right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting definition, "Lord." My dictionary has a different etiology.

      from Meriam-Webster:

      Origin of CULT
      French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate — more at wheel
      First Known Use: 1617

    7. Re:Frank Zappa was right by portforward · · Score: 1

      The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints = Mormons.

      Just thought you'd like to know.

    8. Re:Frank Zappa was right by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Ahh, I meant to throw Jehovah's Witnesses in there instead of the LDS.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    9. Re:Frank Zappa was right by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Yes; that was the original usage. The cult of Dionysus, say, was all the rituals surrounding the worship (adoration) of Dionysus.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  30. Pssht, the Bible reads like sci-fi sometimes by sandytaru · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They just didn't have the terms they needed to describe the spaceships and artificial alien insemination in Aramaic, so all we get are vague descriptions of "wheels with wings within wings and many glowing lights" and sudden miraculous virgin births.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
  31. No worse than any other religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All religions have persecuted/persecute those who disagree. Scientology is no less credible than any other religion. Why does anyone care. If you are stupid enough to believe in witches, trolls, gods, jesuses, and gobblins, then why would you be reading web pages at all. Why not just pray to the lord jesus/god to implant the data in your mind? if you believe in this mumbo-jumbo, and won't do this, then I say you lack faith, and are not a real believer. If you can't trust in your faith, and prove the viability of your religion, then what's the point? Surely your jesuses or gods would not be vindictive enought to withold all that wonderful knowlege, just to create some 'test of faith', or any of the other usual excuses that nutters use, for the failure of their deities to actually do anything.

  32. In fairness to Hitler by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let me say first that I find Hitler repulsive and a particularly horrible dictator. However, compared to Mao Zedong, he is responsible for much less evil and far fewer deaths. During Mao's reign 40 to 70 million died in pointless wars, political purges, suicides, and famine caused in large part by Mao and his policies. This stuff isn't even in the distant past. Mao was in power up to 1976, over 30 years of rule. Hitler is easy to hate because his acts were so ridiculous, so absurd, and generally unpopular. He's an easier target than Mao, but if you really take a step back and look at Mao, Hitler, and all the other brutal dictators of history, they are all equally evil embarrassing stains on human history.

  33. Reflecting negatively? by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1

    It's not like they had a positive image beforehand.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  34. Why do they never realise by Gonoff · · Score: 1

    Suppression of information is pointless.
    If people want it to get out, it will.

    I don't believe that "information wants to be free" prattle. Information does not want anything. People want information to be free.
    The US government can't keep its behaviour secret. Hugely rich football players in the UK can't do it either. Various criminal regimes around the world are trying to keep secrets to stay in power. In the long run, they will fail too and end up in the dustbin of history where they belong. It just takes time.

    If they suppress one blog because of some stupid judge, others will pop up somewhere else. If they invent some automated system to look for references, someone will invent an automated system to flood the internet with such references and their system will bog down. It will get out there if people care...

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  35. The Age of Aquariums by pwngeek · · Score: 2, Funny

    As the cults fall one by one, including the whore of Babylon itself aka the Catholic church, we maybe finally rid ourselves of the WORST human conception EVER, Religion.
    I suggest we replace all churches with community aquariums.

  36. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I was there on Usenet when the whole thing started. They were not successful when measured against the huge amount of information that became available that cast Scientology in a bad light, and that made some of the worst of its nonsense well-known to people on (what eventually became) the web. On top of that, the people kicking off the church attempts to mitigate the problem were grossly incompetent and had no real understanding of the forum they were working with. They seemed to have no clue they were playing an impossible game of whack-a-mole, or that the harder they tried to censor, the more it pissed people off. People on the Net are kind of interested in free speech and being able to discuss whatever the hell they want on public forums. Other than using their usual litigious practices to shamefully hassle a handful of people, they may as well have called it the Church of Streisand for all the good their attempts really did.

  37. Negative comments? by Peter+Simpson · · Score: 2

    Does anyone make *positive* comments about the Church on Slashdot?

    1. Re:Negative comments? by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm positive its a scam.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Negative comments? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean, 'church', in lower case and in quotes.

      Get it right.

  38. Apparently they didn't get to Rupert Murdoch yet by quax · · Score: 1

    He's quite tweet active on the issue.

    Of course I suspect he is just envious that there is another organization even more toxic than Fox News.

  39. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahhh... but they have faith in that cash and those attorneys.

    Justly placed too. cuz cash and lawyers can get shit done.

  40. wikileaks, anyone? by macbeth66 · · Score: 1

    Why doesn't someone post all the secret Scientology crap there?

    1. Re:wikileaks, anyone? by IMightB · · Score: 1

      They did back in the day, it got deleted.

  41. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >At least a real religion has faith, these jokers only have cash and attorneys.

    I have two things to say to that.
    1. How much money do you think the Vatican has?
    2. Read about Galileo. make sure you get the bit where the Pope and Co threatened to rip his arms out of their sockets on a torture rack for stating the Earth was not the centre of the universe. Thankfully, they only threw him in prison for the rest of his life and forced him to make a public statement declaring himself as a fraud and a heretic. It took that ass-backward cult several hundred years to accept what was bleedingly obvious. What a charming bunch ... but I am sure they are different today (* cough *)

    Should I start on Muhammad and his paedophilia next?

    DonÂt ever use a religion as an argument against Scientology. Religions have an abysmal track record...

  42. Such sad, little people by bryan1945 · · Score: 2

    I was going to say "sad, little monkeys," but then I realized that would be insulting to monkeys.
    Let's see if they can mod me into oblivion.

    --
    Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
  43. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except Scientology isn't, its a pyramid/litigious scheme passed off as one..

    At least a real religion has faith, these jokers only have cash and attorneys.

    Beyond idiotic. Throwing the word "faith" out as if it represents any value of logical thought. Christianity was the Scientology of its time, only difference is that it has had 2000 years to gain significance. Either disbelieve all religions, or accept that Scientology is as legit as all stories of magic that came before it.

  44. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    You are right, but I want to point out that Wired magazine is frequently inaccurate, more interested in hype than reality, and shouldn't be linked to for the attention. Here are some other links.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  45. "the Bible is the best-selling book of all time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well yeah, there's millions of hotel rooms all over the world.

  46. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No, really, they weren't successful. That's according to Jurian Massena, who was Scientology's first webmaster and who left the cult when he found out that the people on the "other side" of that Usenet warfare were pretty nice people and the cult had been lying about them. (I met him about 10 years ago: he was speaking to student groups about cults and their dangers, having broken free of one himself.)

    Most of us who jumped into that battle were protecting turf and free speech, and some of us were trying to block spam. (The cult sent 1/2 Terabyte of randomized, forged spam to the Usenet newsgroup alt.religion.scientology in about six months, and reman the worst Usenet spammers in history.)

    We tracked them, we got their sock puppets kicked off ISP's, and eventually we got standard Usenet behavior changed to include the IP address of the sending host. We are the people who invented the word spam, and our battles with Scientology, while not lethal to the cult, helped establish political freedom of speech in the growing web. ISP's learned not to take cash and cashier's checks for modem access without any verifiable address because they *will* be abused by spammers and scammers, so the Scientologists actually gave us a great inoculation against even worse dangers. They were so clearly unacceptable that a lot of ISP's at the time finally enacted real policies against obvious abuse by their own customers, and they were so lawyer equipped that the ISP's did it *carefully*..

    In a weird way, I'm grateful that they were so very offensive and so abusive so fast. It brought *enormous* publicity to their critics at the time and helped expose the cult's inner secrets and abuses in a way that convicting Mary Sue Hubbard for faking bomb threats against Paulette Cooper did not.

  47. This whole thread is clearly a CoC violation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Consider yourself all reported.

    1. Re:This whole thread is clearly a CoC violation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Co C ? Church of Cock? Do you smoke it?

  48. Greatest science fiction writer of all time! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    L.Ron Hubard is the best sci-fi writer in the world. No other writer can convince stupid people that fiction is real like this guy did. ROFLMA.

  49. Negative? by chrismcb · · Score: 3, Funny

    Doesn't that imply that some things reflect positively on the "church?"

    1. Re:Negative? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well.. there's an odd chance that someone might publish a story about how the church gives cruise inner strength to get through these tough times. or some shit like that.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Negative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mirrors

  50. hahahha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love how I never heard about any divorce, and this is the first Scientology news I've heard in a long time.

  51. Sinners repent! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Infidels! Join the One True Church (Canada) before it is too late!

    ^C/^V

  52. Battlefield Earth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They didn't even bother to censor all the reviews of "Battlefield Earth" why would they start now?
    It's just another bad science fiction story, scientology that is...

  53. Wars Over Minor Points of Doctrine? by geoffrobinson · · Score: 1

    I know of no such war, at least within Christianity and Judaism. I'm no expert on Islam so I'll let them speak for themselves.

    A lot of times religion was a proxy for tribal warfare. But it's more like different tribes had different religions. But it wasn't like the Irish were dying to defend papal infallibility by and large.

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
  54. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

    Scientology has/requires faith too. Do you think they have proof of Xenu? You have trust and have faith in Him.

  55. scientology freaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hollywood liberal wierdos....

    Posting as anonymous coward.....please don't hurt me Tom Cruise.

  56. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by PoopMonkey · · Score: 1

    While I applaud what you claim to have done, you did not invent the word spam.

  57. OMG WE ARE LEGION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Church of Scientology, long time nemisis of the Four Channel Army is now trying to censor the internet????

    CHARGE DEM LAZERZ!!!!

  58. All about Scientology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Scientology is a pseudo-cult practised by people following the Science Fiction author Lafayette Ronald Hubbard. He was dirt poor before he managed to brainwash people into believing his shit. Once he got them to start paying him money for nothing, his financial problems were over. After he died, the money could have stopped, except that others took over (they wanted to suck people into giving them money too). The "censor police" are those who have given a lot and don't want to look stupid for having done so. Personally I liked Isaac Asimov better. The foundation series is much better. Perhaps the Scientology kids could switch to reading the Foundation series. Any half-reasonable bookstore carries it, and it costs a crapload less then 'Hubbards stuff. "All Hail Harry Seldon". Oh, and replace the word "Thetan" with "Zebulon" ...even the terms are more cool-sounding.

  59. And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, why not? When the majority of USians seriously believe fairy tales about a magical carpenter and demand that society be structured around them, anything goes. Scientology is no more ridiculous (could anything be more ridiculous?) than other mainstream western religions.

  60. subject by Legion303 · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Apparently, the recent very public divorce of Katie Holmes and devout believer Tom Cruise is reflecting negatively on the Church of Scientology."

    More negatively than the deaths Scientology has caused? That must have been some breakup.

  61. 'Church' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love how the word church is repeatedly surrounded by quotes in this article, as if to say that scientology does not deserve to call their churches churches. Oh it's a religion just the same. Nothing special about the old ones, other than more delusions of grandeur.

  62. The foundation of Scientology's goal is not faith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's the pseudo-science called Dianetics "tech" and accompanying scams:

    Training courses = Bait and Switch
    Auditing = Gold Brick Scam
    Front Groups = Pyramid Scam
    IAS (Ideal Org/Library Donations) = Boiler Room Scam

    Members blissfully perform these scams without knowing that's what they are, and when they figure it out they stay in because of the Concorde Fallacy or Sunk Cost Fallacy

  63. Not So Sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason we have a separation of Church and State, is that our Founders, through experience of very recent (for them) history, knew very well the consequences of either having a Government-run Church, or a Church-run Government. Either case ALWAYS (over the last 800-900 years or so) ended in disaster.

    So they decided: government will stay out of Church affairs, and Churches would stay out of Government affairs. And it has turned out to be, in the long run, a very healthy way to run that relationship.

    The US is the world's most religious "developed" country. If you look at, say, Denmark which does not have separation of church and state (it is in fact officially a Christian country) religiosity is much lower... which is a good thing.

    Now, it would be unfair to judge the founders by anything other than their historical context, but it appears that they were in fact wrong on this particular issue.

    1. Re:Not So Sure by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "Now, it would be unfair to judge the founders by anything other than their historical context, but it appears that they were in fact wrong on this particular issue."

      No, that's faulty logic.

      Instead, look at how bad the U.S would be if they HADN'T done that. I think it's pretty damned clear that it would have been disaster.

      It simply isn't valid to point at a law that says "you can believe anything you want" and call that the cause of people believing in Christianity. There are other forces at work.

  64. alt.support.ex-cult by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    Pop scientology alt.support.ex-cult into Google groups search for some good creepy laughs. It's a shame it only goes back 4 years, the early 2000's saw many a scientology recruiter trolling that group.

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  65. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by dontmakemethink · · Score: 1

    "Real religion" wins oxymoron of the aeon

    --

    War as we knew it was obsolete
    Nothing could beat complete denial
    - Emily Haines
  66. Re:In fairness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you blame USSR and China for what they did?

  67. Religion, Faith, Authority, and the Supernatural by Pfhorrest · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Religion is defined by faith.

    Any appeal to authority is ultimately an appeal to faith in said authority. "It must be right, because such-and-such said so."

    So authoritarianism is inherently religious (based on faith), even if devoid of the trappings we associate with "traditional" religion, e.g. the supernatural.

    What makes the supernatural in turn inherently religious (based on faith) is that nothing can be known about it from evidence, and so any opinions on it must be based on faith, and whoever you have faith in (as in, whoever's word you take as 'gospel truth'), you are taking to be an authority.

    If you have faith only in things that come to you directly by some sort of inspiration, then you are simply taking yourself as the authority of your own religion.

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  68. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by CptNerd · · Score: 1

    Actually the word we came up with was "sporgery", for "spam forgery". I was a victim until I learned how to use PGP to sign my postings. What the $cienos did was to hoover up thousands of postings from white power, neonazi and other hate newsgroups per day, strip the headers and repost them with headers from legitimate critics' posts, so as to make it look like we were spamming the group with racist rants. Most of us learned to filter them out by not replying to them, and only looking at posts that had a PGP signature. Of course, they tried to "sporge" those too, but they didn't work (for obvious reasons).

    They were also big at one time on teams of Usenet posters all using the same name (kind of the opposite of sock puppets). It was easy to figure out that 4 or 5 different people were using the same account to post from, given wildly different posting styles and differing levels of English capability, usually on the same day.

    It was an interesting time, and I (virtually) met some interesting people.

    --
    By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
  69. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by fatphil · · Score: 1

    If the internet is populated with pondlife who can't remember even as recently as 2008, CoS has nothing to fear.

    Project Chanology achieved almost nothing.

    It brought to the attention of the US media that there are thousands of law-breakers in the world who don't like Scientology. Do you really think that was progress?

    --
    Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  70. Yeah right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Christian doctrine is about making humans more empathetic and forgiving (do unto others as you would have them do unto you).

    Unless you're gay. Or a woman (Catholic church). Or living in war-torn Africa.

    Christianity is also about control and bigotry. It's not as bad as Scientology, but it is very much a platform for discrimination, anti-science and hate.

  71. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    The money in traditional religions is a side effect, not the end-goal.

    Now while i don't subscribe to any of them, there is a difference between why they exist.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  72. Re:Scientology is as bad as Christianity, Judaism, by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    It is an excuse to bilk money out of people, not a belief. They should be outlawed and eradicated. Completely.

    Furthermore, I have faith in NO ONE so don't put words in my mouth.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  73. Re:So the $cientologists want a war with the inter by bky1701 · · Score: 1

    Then came a little thing called /b/, and it all went downhill for the supposed-religion.

  74. Re:Religion, Faith, Authority, and the Supernatura by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

    Religion is defined by faith.

    Don't you think that's a little reductive?

    Any appeal to authority is ultimately an appeal to faith in said authority. "It must be right, because such-and-such said so."

    This is a dead end, because this implies everyone who accepts any kind of authority is doing so on faith. Even atheists and skeptics acknowledge authorities; the logical fallacy you're thinking of is "appeal to unsuitable authority," and the first person to state this fallacy was a catholic scholastic, Thomas Aquinas.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  75. I died a little by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the day I learned not only was beck a member but has been since a child so he's full on crazy devoted. Danny masters on, his brother too. I think the worst was finding out Brody from mall rats (Jason lee aka earl) was one too. It really makes you wonder just how stupid and egotistical some celebs are.

    1. Re:I died a little by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Died a little"?

      The proper reaction is instant scorn and contempt. So fucking what if they are entertainers? That just means they are good at entertaining.

      If they are superstionists, that also means they are lunatics in at least one respect.

      When you pay for entertainment you buy a product, not the actor.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  76. End of the cult? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even for Scientology this is beyond stupid. The ones that are left have stayed away from reading about the cult on the Internet. This letter is to a small group, but if it gets out to the rest of their members and they do it too, the cult will collapse overnight.

  77. "church"?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's interesting that you would single out this particular cult for adding the apostrophes. I've never seen this same treatment of the Westboro Baptist "church', or, for that matter, any other church.

  78. The Alegory of the Cave by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Ignorance will only bother a person when they realize they are ignorant. You don't, as is obvious by your post. If you ever decide to walk out of the cave and look around, you will probably become first physically ill. After your eyes adjust, you will start to feel better. As you begin to see, you will know how wonderful the world really is, and you will despise the time you spent in the cave.

    People have been trying to seal off the entrance for a very long time, and at the rate things are progressing you don't have much time left to get out.

    Those words probably make no sense to you. I sincerely hope people like you would wake up and start trying to get out, instead of being content to live in a cave.

    Those words are not as much a metaphor as you initially think.

    By the way, I freely admit my ignorance. I don't know nearly as much as I should, and continually seek the truth. The task is extremely difficult since people want us in the cave.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  79. Reflecting negatively? by dradler · · Score: 1

    There are plenty of ways to lambaste scientologists (with all of the ways graciously provided directly by them), but this? Yeah sure, the divorce of a Hollywood couple is so unusual, I can see how that would reflect negatively on any group associated with it.

  80. to the curch of science by lavcoyote25 · · Score: 0

    Nazis started down this long path to oblivion. have a nice trip . the only good one of you is a dead one of you.

  81. Social utility by gd2shoe · · Score: 1

    Of course they want it tax free. I want my donations to be tax free. I don't want the level of church service available to me to be lessened by the amount of a tax. I already paid income tax.

    A long time ago, it was decided that churches (and other non-profits*) provided social utility. As long as that holds true, an argument can be made for tax exception.

    Of course, my church has a lay ministry, and doesn't hire clergy. (I suspect those that do have to pay income tax.)

    *(Yes, there are for-profit churches; not many, but their income is taxable.)

    --
    I won't join Slashcott. OTOH, If Beta goes live, I just won't be back until it's fixed. Sorry Dice.
  82. Ron Who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Ron Paul has spoken at a bunch of their functions, actually".

    Just what hidden very powerful vested interests decided to disappear Ron Paul from the media?

  83. Re:Religion, Faith, Authority, and the Supernatura by Pfhorrest · · Score: 1

    Religion is defined by faith.

    Don't you think that's a little reductive?

    I don't see why "reductive" has to be a bad thing, but beside that point: how else would you define it? Religion isn't synonymous with morality or ethics, as some would make it out; there are rationalistic moral or ethical systems as well, and religions make all kinds of factual claims about the origins and structure of reality too. Religion isn't synonymous with ritual either, as there are all kinds of secular rituals people observe all the time, from morning tea to Superbowl Sunday. Religion isn't synonymous with philosophy either, though I would argue that they are on the same level of abstraction and have a similar domain and range, but their methodologies are really quite antithetical (yes, despite the existence of plenty of religious philosophers; people are capable of doublethink).

    What all religions have in common is the assertion of things, not only without reason, and not necessarily always against reason, but with the claim that reason is unnecessary: "Just believe it, because I say it's it's true", or at least "I just believe it, because I know it's true".

    Any appeal to authority is ultimately an appeal to faith in said authority. "It must be right, because such-and-such said so."

    This is a dead end, because this implies everyone who accepts any kind of authority is doing so on faith. Even atheists and skeptics acknowledge authorities; the logical fallacy you're thinking of is "appeal to unsuitable authority," and the first person to state this fallacy was a catholic scholastic, Thomas Aquinas.

    Atheists and skeptics acknowledge "authorities" in a different sense than in the logical fallacy of appealing to authority. We may point at some notable figure as the source of our belief, trust them to have good reasons for their claims, and defer to them for more in-depth explanation of those reasons. For example, I believe lots of scientific facts because I have read about them in what I consider to be reputable sources, and if questioned on them beyond my own ability to defend them I would defer to those sources for further argument. I might make a claim about black holes, point to Stephen Hawking as my source for that information, and defer to the paper of his which I read it in for a full defense of that claim. But I would never say "Stephen Hawking said so, therefore it is true", and only that is an appeal to authority. "I don't really know, but I trust Hawking to get it right, here's his paper if you want to argue the point with him further, let me know how that goes" is not.

    Any appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, though I wouldn't put it past a religious thinker like Aquinas to qualify that with "unsuitable" (much like the Chinese constitution guarantees all kinds of rights, so long as they don't 'threaten the stability of the state' or some such catch-all nonsense excuse).

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  84. Christian doctrine about making humans empathetic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Christian doctrine is about making humans more empathetic and forgiving"

    Christopher Hitchens would disagree with that (God Is Not Great). For the clearist description of the evolution of religion I've ever read see The Golden Bough. So, ElRon was just in a long line of fraudsters, only he modernized the stuff through the use of cod-technical sounding phrased borrowed from US army manuals and the introduction of the E-Meter. A reading of the scriptures guaranteed to bring on a severe case of cognitiave dissonance. I've never seen so many acronyms in the one document, even the acronyms have acronyms. Sometimes whole paragraphs are nothing but a bunch of acronyms.

    From: The Technical Bulletins
    of
    Dianetics and Scientology


    "1st dynamic, A/Chief, automaticity, bank, Clear, de-contaminating, F/N, HCO, MEST, mocking, OT, O.T., OT1, S.P., TA, T.A, wog" ..

    The E-Meter, basically a galvanomitor that measured skin resistance, and used as a crude lie-detector. The results of such 'auditing` sessions being later-on used to black-mail members into compliance. Christianity has confession, so I guess they're not so much differrent after all.

  85. Super Tom by Occams · · Score: 1

    You're all brainwashed. Tom has a master's degree from a Scientology university. He did his thesis on the evils of psychiatry. So, he knows much more about this stuff than we do. He even has superpowers. If you get hurt in a car accident, don't call for a doctor, call for Super Tom.

    --
    Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.
  86. Re:Why is 'church' in quotes? Don't look up Vulva! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The same reason we refer to the vagina when we actually mean vulva.
    Wait, that's probably not a good analogy on /.

    To quote Bluto "Holy Sh*t!!!!!" - I just looked up vulva on Wikipedia!
    Well I guess I should say made the mistake of looking up vulva....only believe me it was no mistake in the first place and well lets just start by saying I didn't do much reading.... Geez, after spitting out my coffee, I kid you not I seriously had to double check that I hadn't been redirected to Jimmy's Bomis site instead... but then I realised as there were none of Jimmy's "lesbian strip-poker threesomes" as the NY puts it that no I must have still been on porno^h^h^h^h^h wikipediaI. That article could be the * of the month article....

    The summary of the collage entitled "Vulva_Diversity.jpg" is hilarious example with serious and non-serious entries intermixed:

    # Female_abdomen_frontal_view.jpg (first row, left)
    # Rasur.jpg (first row, center)
    # Pubes.jpg (first row, right)
    # Human.jpg (second row, left)
    # Landing_Strip.jpg (second row, center)
    # Hot_pants.jpg (second row, right)

    Peter Klashorst, your a sick puppie!

    Jimmy if your reading this can you ensure that next time your updating one of your sites that you pick the right one as I thought you'd reduced all that NSFW, NSFS stuff from Wikipedia as part of trying to white wash your porn past.... not that I'm complaining mind you re the actual content itself but your acting like Bill Gates and Steve Jobbs denying they were hackers... oh wait they did....

    "Scientology sucks Katie's arse and Tom Cruise due to play bender in upcoming Futurama^h film...." - there back on topic ;-)

    A post with porn, bill gates, steve jobs and scientology. hmmm I'm not sure now if I'll now be modded up or down. More likely I'll have an unfortunate accident with a car tomorrow when I'm crossing the road.

  87. Re:Gossip for Nerds, Stuff that's irrelavant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdotters will never forget that Scientology made it personal.