Slashdot Mirror
Windows 8 Mail Leaves Users Pining For the Desktop — or Even Their Phones
jbrodkin writes "The e-mail client in Windows 8 is the shell of a potentially good application — but Microsoft hasn't given it the proper care it deserves. With less than a month before Windows 8 hits RTM, Mail is a mess that doesn't support IMAP, can't connect to servers with self-signed certificates, and lacks basic features like flagging messages for followup. Metro Mail is feature-deficient compared not just to other desktop and tablet apps — it's behind Microsoft's own phone platform. Whether used on a tablet or desktop, this in-depth look concludes that Metro Mail in its current form will have users pining for a real desktop application."
I only use online mail these days, so do all of my coworkers and all of the coworkers at my previous companies too. I guess there is still a niche for this called the public sector.
They're stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Give Windows 8 users a real email client and cannibalize Outlook/Office sales
Give Windows 8 users a stripped down client and get pilloried in the press and taken to the woodshed by Apple.
Good ol' Microsoft internal politics at its finest.
I'm sure, the large majority will put up even with that. But maybe MSFT will be using some spare change and license Opera.
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
I see what you did there.
Windows 8 mail might make me pine for Pine also.
Tablets are great, and an optimized tablet UI can be both intuitive and efficient so long as you're using a fucking tablet.
Seriously... it's like MS is trying to put the umbrella down the chimney up for this one.
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
That prerelease software isn't finished yet? No fucking way! I'm shocked!
Windows Phone 8 != Windows 8. Windows 8 is referring the successor to Windows 7.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
THIS is one of MS's biggest problems IMHO.
Compare that to some of their competitors that will suddenly toss out a fully functional product, available NOW. Not complete and polished maybe, but at least it works acceptably well just out of the gate, and isn't months away from release.
That crap only works when selling to businesses. If they're going to compete in the private sector they're going to have to get their act straight and get some hustle going.
Semifunctional products scheduled for release months from now won't compete well with products that work that are available today. You'll either enter the market with few available new customers or catch all sorts of bad PR about needing several patches just to get it working as expected/advertised (or both) like the others already in the market already do.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
They could of took the opportunity to say don't like your Windows mail client, switch to Thunderbird.
people still use email clients!?
I certainly do. Best way for me to manage my multiple email accounts with multiple servers.
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
The only reason people look at Microsoft is to use the desktop software and GUI's they know like the back of their hand. MS is NOT going to be able to compete on technology alone because they are behind that curve. If they can't give you a mobile version that works like the MS desktop and Office, they are hosed.
Table-ized A.I.
Like Star Trek, every other number is good. Starting, in Microsoft's case, with X. Or something.
I don't think it's the version going to be included in gold, is it? Besides, who gives a fuck?
It's a god damn Microsoft mail client, if you're at that level, you probably don't need much more than "hurr press button it sends email".
I wish that was more of the truth and the metro interface would disappear on the desktop!
With even Microsoft's own Outlook trying to migrate to online/cloud/browser-based solutions, who even cares about stand-alone email clients at this point? This program isn't intended for much more than checking your AOL email; even my POP-only ISP email account has more/better functionality through the web interface.
Don't forget that Vista's mail client was deprecated practically from day one, and 7 didn't even ship with an email client.
Whelp, there goes a big toe...
Where do you work? In cubeland, practically everybody has been forced to use MS Outlook for about 20 years or however long it's been around. If their phone can't use Outlook properly, boy, they in a heap o' trouble.
That saying is about the movies, not the series.
I've been using the Windows 8 mail client instead of outlook on my MacBook Air with my exchange email for a few weeks and mostly like it. It reads mail/sends mail, is bloody fast, never hangs or slows down. That being said 1) it's a beta product 2) it does have the option to provide feedback to Microsoft within the app It is short on some features, I await final release to pass final judgement.
I converted back from web-based shit email (had enough of google's mail, yahoo's mail and all the rest of the big CRAP mail ui's they throw at us) and I went back to thunderbird. have been loving it for the last year or so, now. its great. local typing, no lost stuff, no hangs, no delays, no network-reachability issues or timeouts, no ads, no jscript, no worries about blocking and maintenance.
my life is a whole lot simpler using good old IMAP and local email pulled down.
the cloud can go fuck itself ;) I'm back with local apps and enjoying the speed of my machine and a *stable* UI experience.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I really don't see the problem:
Those who use webmail will continue to use webmail.
Those who use Outlook will continue to use Outlook.
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
The thing about vista almost everyone who ended up with, spent money upgrading to 7 because it fixed everything.
A free e-mail client from a for profit company doesn't support every feature that users could want?! Why does everybody think they should get first class quality software for free these days?
I've been in the silicon valley for the last 25 or so years. not once was I forced to use outlook. I was always allowed to use unix on the desktop (linux, bsd, solaris, even irix) and engineers could choose to use windows/outlook OR use their own workstations email clients if they are unix based.
managers often are forced to use 'all windows' stuff. I'm not one of those guys, though. in my world, we have been given choices, at least if it mattered to you (I used to insist on qmail on my workstation, but lets not go there, shall we? I got over that in short order.)
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Doesn't support IMAP? Whaaaaaa? How in the hell can they forget that?
Designer: "Hey boss! We finished the new model of sedan for next week's unveiling!"
Boss: "Great! Show me!"
Designer: "It's got a great interior, class leading power, even cheaper than the competition! And the milage? It's great!"
Boss: "That's awesome news! Hey, where's the steering wheel?"
Designer: "Steering wheel? Wait, the car's supposed to turn?"
Boss: "...uh, yeah. They all do that. And kind of need to."
Designer: "...crap! I knew we forgot something!"
They are still supporting it they just killed the dev team who were adding features that added a little bloat* but failed to increase market-share as TB is still not outlook.
What do you need in a mail client seriously? It has more features than pretty much everything else excluding the exchange stuff.
I wish that was more of the truth and the metro interface would disappear on the desktop!
Yeah, me too! I hate everything new, especially things I've never used.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
I am not the only one who has noticed it.
Basically you do not need METRO at all to experience. Go open IE and then do fullscreen at www.hotmail.com and that is it. It is not even an app more than a container. The news app sucks on Metro as well but not quite as badly.
It really is bare knuckles with fullscreen IE 10 instances. iOS got it right with its version of apps having toolbars, tabs, and other features. The safari for my dad's ipad is identical to the desktop version except for a few menu items.
http://saveie6.com/
Reality Check - however much we may love our various e-mail tools (I'm a g-mail man myself, 'cause it works well with my Linux box and my Android phone) Joe Average user is in a different camp.
They don't want to change e-mail clients every year or two. I'd love to know how many Outlook Express installs are still out there. For many, many people it has been Good Enough for - ten years? Especially for the millions still using Windows XP.
I recently moved my Girlfriend from OE to Windows Live Mail (that is, the desktop version of Windows Live E-mail, not the web version) and have to say that it was not an easy transition. After that experience I'd think long and hard before moving to another MS client.
(Always found Outlook more irritating than useful, but that's my taste. Fondly remember Pegasus Mail when it was the pinnacle of e-mail clients.)
Three Squirrels
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
The thing about vista almost everyone who ended up with, spent money upgrading to 7 because it fixed everything.
Yep, a Win win for Microsoft.
I'll get me coat.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Huh? My mother, father, brother, wife and daughter all use email clients. Possibly my influence but I've yet to meet anyone who likes webmail over a client once its been setup for them.
people still use email clients!?
Sure! Why the fuck not?
Google and Yahoo both support IMAP. If I'm not interested in doing it through a shitty Java webmail client, I can fire up T-Bird, Claws, M2, Pine, Alpine, and any other MUA that supports IMAP and get the job done.
It allows me to use real editors, complex filtering, flagging, foldering, archiving, etc. It makes sending encrypted mail a whole heck of a lot easier.
Why aren't you using an IMAP MUA to connect to your webmail?
--
BMO
It's about the movies, not the series. Please turn in your geek card.
It's not entirely accurate, at least IMO, but it's pretty close:
1) ST:TMP - boring, boring crap
2) Wrath of Khan - probably best ST movie ever, though the bit about a nebula being a short distance from a planet at sublight speed irks me.
3) Search for Spock - underrated IMO, not as good as II and IV but not horrible.
4) Voyage Home - great
5) so horrible that many fans disclaim its existence; William Shatner directed this abomination, but never again directed a major motion picture
6) Undiscovered Country - excellent
7) Generations - big disappointment, though not nearly as bad as ST5
8) First Contact - excellent, great triumph for director Jonathan Frakes (Riker)
9) Insurrection - pretty disappointing, esp. since it was also directed by Frakes and didn't measure up at all to First Contact
10) Nemesis - this is where the trend totally breaks down, because it's even-numbered but it sucked. It had some great visuals and effects (I liked the part about Picard piloting the small Reman ship), but otherwise it was pretty lame. This movie was also a big flop and ended the whole Star Trek movie franchise for a while until it was rebooted with entirely new actors in JJ Abram's movie (and upcoming sequel).
... Did Microsoft ever get around to fixing the "begin xxxx.xxx.scr/exe/whatever" bug in their basic email client?
Fifty watts per channel, baby cakes.
I've use mail.app for compatability and Thunderbird as a secondary client.
1) The encryption stuff should not be such a pain. It should be on and self configure by default.
2) Task manager integrated into calendaring. Preferably allowing for task assignment. If you really want to push workflow (i.e. john should be able to read this hit approve and the email forwards to Suzie automatically with John's approval).
3) Digital signing
4) Labeling / tagging, integrated with gmail for gmail IMAP.
5) Twitter, evernote, linkedin... feeds and uploads
6) Link large files i.e. large files get replaced with links off a webdav and/or dropbox.
7) automatic multiple RE: Fwd reductions
etc..
It says "APP PREVIEW"
What a stupid article.
What do you need in a mail client seriously? It has more features than pretty much everything else excluding the exchange stuff.
These, for starters:
Palm trees and 8
It only lets you set up accounts for Exchange, Hotmail and Gmail right now, but it definitely does support IMAP. If you add a Gmail account to it and then disable POP retrieval it still works. Disable IMAP and it suddenly doesn't. I imagine they will add the option for arbitrary servers before it gets released, but even if they don't it will satisfy 98% of the people that use it (those without Outlook and who don't know what Thunderbird is).
agreed.
my first email was on a vax/vms using one of 3: decmail (ha!), vmsmail or all-in-1 mail. mostly it was vmsmail (what you got from a regular vax account with node::username). I used that for about 6 years (while at DEC) and mail in the 80's and 90's was just fine! it worked, it was fast, it was secure and the only real issues were translation of addresses from public to private internets.
fast forward to the 90's and early 2000 era. I was still using ELM or maybe mutt. it worked, it was fast, it was secure and it was on every system that I used, in every company I was at.
finally, fast forward to the web-age and gmail. I had an early adopter gmail acct (in the invite-only days) and I surely gave gmail enough of a chance. I hated it, got burned by it, had to keep up my adblock-element-hider frequently updated by hand (just to get the UI back to where I wanted it after each google 'upgrade'). it was more work than I wanted and got progressively slower and less responsive as the years went on.
now, I've dumped it. went back to local email (using thunderbird and imap from my own paid isp) and things are as good as they were back when email was still young.
email is not really a complicated thing and it does not need 'advancement'. the funct that I used 20+ yrs ago is what I still use today. I could even still be happy with ELM and an xterm ;) the web-based shit just doesn't impress me and has caused me to reject 'the cloud' for email use.
tl;dr: if its not broke, don't re-invent it! 're-writing email systems' has got to the be the stupidest thing you could do, today!
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
"no lost stuff, no hangs, no delays, no network-reachability issues or timeouts, no ads, no jscript, no worries about blocking and maintenance"
which describes my gmail experience.
With the added bonus I can access it anywhere.
You? you're pretty much a slashdot hipster.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Almost every Mac user uses Mail.app, and anyone with an iOS device who uses it for e-mail does too, and anyone who works in an office probably uses MS Office including Outlook Mail.
If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
I agree. Every other roll out MS has done was a money grab. 98 should have been 98SE, ME should have been XP. Vista should have been 7. I have been telling people for a year to avoid 8 until it is 8+ or whatever. Of course they would avoid using "+" on anything because it might bring Google to mind... but if history is any gauge 8 will suck so hard you'll need a CRT to avoid screen puckering.
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
You have your opinions, but most Star Trek fans don't share them, as evidenced by reviews and box-office figures. ST1 didn't do that well. ST6 and 8 both did well. ST4 got great reviews and is easily the most popular of all the ST movies.
BTW, there's nothing about watching endless footage of the Enterprise slowly going into a giant cloud, with some wacky 70s sound effects, that "requires you to think". It's just boring.
Windows Phone 8 shares the kernel with Windows 8, but otherwise it's still a different OS.
Otherwise, what use is Metro aimed at?
Tablets.
This comes on the heels of Ballmer saying that Microsoft will no longer allow Apple to out innovate them? A mail client that doesn't even support IMAP? Apple's Mail application isn't the best but at least you can connect to Exchange servers and connect to Gmail over SSL. So do any number of Linux based mail systems. I like having a desktop client to cobble together my gmail, yahoo and corporate mail all in the one box. I suspect that a lot of others do too. They have to get this fixed. I want MS to succeed, I really do, but it's gaffes like this that have Windows ME and Vista written all over it. Although we should all know better by now. MS has a history of unfulfilled promises when it comes to operating systems so it should come as no surprise. I think Metro can work on a tablet. I've seen it on phones and it looks pretty cool. But for the desktop? I've got grave reservations and without even a proper email client it's dead in the water as far as I'm concerned.
Re: ST:TMP: I just remember that the scenes were so dark that you couldn't tell what was going on. When I went, the movie was projected through a dusty window. Not sure if it would have been easier to clean the window or just open up the film camera a couple of stops when they shot the movie.
Their they're doing there hair.
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
Thanks for being explicitly clear about what you mean. People are continually comparing Windows 8 to Vista in completely insane ways, but this is one example I can agree with. It feels like Microsoft are rushing a lot of what they do these days. I mean, shit, I owned a Zune, I currently own a Windows Phone, and I love both. I think Metro is a great UI and has huge potential on tablets (I tried the beta on my desktop, and while it's surprisingly decent with a mouse/keyboard, I'm still not optimistic). But they really need to make sure it gets the appropriate level of polish before they put it out to market. I'll just sum it up this way: they can't expect to deal with the tablet or desktop market the same way they've dealt with the Windows Phone 7 to 8 transition and expect to have any level of success.
hi
ah, but I have used it.. and tested in it A LOT in a VM for both existing apps we have as well as other tests to make sure it what we use will work. I know it's an early release but with our end users (as most are) not very tech savvy I can already see a lot of potential issues.
But Windows 8 uses Metro, and to get to the "classic" desktop you have to find it within the Metro interface (as well as control panel and all that). It also has no start menu, which I can see being a headache when it gets deployed to enterprise setups like colleges and all that where the end users aren't going to be able to find various apps creating helpdesk tickets that don't really need to exist (among other issues)
You? Your pretty much a 'I only use google products' hipster.
Lots of us have many mail accounts, and many/most/all of them are not with Google. A good mail client is invaluable when you use many mail servers.
My tablet is full of WebKit.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
I haven't even seen Metro, and I've heard nothing but complaints about it.
Metro sounds like a... wait for it... train wreck.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
But Windows 8 uses Metro, and to get to the "classic" desktop you have to find it within the Metro interface
Yes, it does (though finding it is pretty easy - it's that huge tile labelled "Desktop" and showing your desktop wallpaper on the Metro start screen). But what relevance does it have to the difference between Win8 and WP8?
Using Thunderbird to pull down GMail through IMAP, you get the best of both worlds.
Best way for me to manage my multiple email accounts with multiple servers
Just fyi, several mail accounts (Gmail, Google accounts mail) can be opened simultaneously in different tabs, in the same browser.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
Win8 makes ME, Vista, Clippy, Bob and even GFWL seem like well-thought-out good ideas in comparison.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
That everything will of course be in the cloud-social media collective. They have determined you don't want or need a functioning email client. And the scales will fall from the eyes of the usual fanbois and cheerleaders who suddenly gush with the paid for epiphany that Redmond was right all along and a new paradigm of computing is upon us.
Thunderbird gets rid of the webmail UI and other bullshit quite nicely.
Portable works great on Windows and backing up the whole program folder to DVD for portable archive love is easy.
If I switch ISPs, no problem.
Cross-platform too.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Windows 1.0 the Motion Picture: Lame. No support for the V'Ger graphics adaptor.
Windows 2.0 the Wrath of Copy Con: Good. First overlapping windows allows you to hide your ploy to drop Reliant's shields from the superior intellect.
Windows 3.1 the Search for WinSock: Lame. Program manager was clunky, the program group icons were all the same and not configurable. Look at it sideways and it crashed faster than the USS Enterprise on the Genesis planet.
Windows 4 (95) the Voyage to Start: Great. Established a GUI paradigm copied by KDE, Gnome, and many others.
Windows 1.xx-2.xx - Crap ....
Windows 3.11 Good
Windows 95 - Crap
Windows 98 - good
windows ME - Crap
Windows XP Good
Windows Vista Crap
Windows 7 Good
Windows 8
No I dont count NT and 2000 in there because those are Professional OS's and they both rocked.. 2000 Was better than 98 by a long shit because of the security and pro features. Problem is Windows 8 is a consumer home OS not a Professional OS.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
That's funny, it was actually my experience that Win95 crashed faster than the Enterprise on the Genesis planet, whereas Win3.1 was fairly stable. I even refused to upgrade to Win95 or Win98 until I decided to switch to Linux because I got so annoyed about my Win95/98 computer at work crashing several times a day.
I converted back from web-based shit email (had enough of google's mail, yahoo's mail and all the rest of the big CRAP mail ui's they throw at us) and I went back to thunderbird. have been loving it for the last year or so, now. its great. local typing, no lost stuff, no hangs, no delays, no network-reachability issues or timeouts, no ads, no jscript, no worries about blocking and maintenance.
my life is a whole lot simpler using good old IMAP and local email pulled down.
the cloud can go fuck itself ;) I'm back with local apps and enjoying the speed of my machine and a *stable* UI experience.
I use Gmail (the web-based interface), but once a week, use Portable Thunderbird + IMAP to ensure I have a local backup.
Thunderbird's UI is...OK. It tends to hang up a lot (I get the old, "Thunderbird (Not Responding)" in the caption a lot.) They seem to have some UI problems, letting the UI thread get hung up for too long.
Of course, I wouldn't expect a non-tech geek to be able to figure out this setup...
Previously windows users either had to buy Outlook or go download something else like Thunderbird or whatever.
No, Outlook Express doesn't count...
MS just cant seem to get it through their heads that they need to provide a complete experience that is solid.
They are scared to because they think everyone will file a lawsuit against them. Its why Media player sucks, why an email program doesnt ship with windows 7... and why windows 8 will fail if MS keeps doing this to themselves.
Technically Yahoo supports IMAP on mobile devices BUT not on desktop clients! Even if you are a paying customer.
Yahoo sucks.
i.e.
http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/443/yahoovsgoogle1996to2005ys4.png
Yeah, me too! I hate everything new, especially things I've never used.
I think we need to go back the the good old days, when we had to replace our computers and operating systems every two years.
What you are confusing is the difference between new-better, and new-just different.
After years of operating in one fashion, Microsoft is trying to force people in a different direction. Does this direction allow me to work faster? How much time is this new OS going to shave off of that job I have to get done before I go home tonight?
In addition, many people confuse the operating system as more important than it really is. The purpose of the OS is to allow people to quickly get to their work, then get out of the way, and work in the background. Considering that I had to go onto the web to find out how to shut the computer down when I checked out W8 consumer preview, I think it kinda fails right off the bat. Spent a few days testing it otherwise, and W8 will never be put on one of my machines. Feels like Vista all over again.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Yeah, desktop environments have been annoying me of late. I don't like OS X (not enough customization), never been a fan of KDE, I liked GNOME but GNOME 3X has missed the mark, currently I'm using MATE which is a fork of GNOME 2X. I've never had many complaints about the UI of Windows except for one problem: you can't move windows around on the bottom bar. You can move things -somewhat- around in Windows 7 but I can't have, say, a word document, Firefox, another word document, another Firefox window, Outlook, another word document. But Metro just makes no sense on the desktop, on phones its great, but I'm not staring at a 3 inch screen when I'm on my laptop.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
So you people really think they are going to release the OS without a decent mail Client/App or some 3rd party replacement in place? And I thought my dog was stupid...
Desktop email clients seem like an unnecessary complexity nowadays.
For vanishingly small levels of complexity.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Just fyi, several mail accounts (Gmail, Google accounts mail) can be opened simultaneously in different tabs, in the same browser.
Thanks (and useful in a pinch), but no thanks. I don't want to work like that.
Hear, hear. Gmail is the best of the webmailers and it still sucks ass.
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Maybe Microsoft is adapting the old "First they laugh at you" strategy. Say Windows 8 fails or fails to succeed on the scale of 7. But by the time 9 comes out, people would have been so used to The Metro interface that they'll just sigh and accept it for what it is, a dumbed down desktop UI for the smartphone generation.
Win7 didn't introduce any great UI changes from Vista. Win9 is likely going to be an enhanced version of 8.
Actually, you get the worst of both worlds. Deleting/moving emails in thunderbird will have unpredictable consecuences in gmail, and you're likely to see the same email in diferent mailboxes (folders in thunderbird, tags in gmail).
You'll see gmail mailboxes as [GMAIL] in thunderbird, and the thunderbird ones in [IMAP], and have plenty more issues.
tl;dr: if its not broke, don't re-invent it! 're-writing email systems' has got to the be the stupidest thing you could do, today!
The fashion industry reinvents itself every year by cyclically going through old designs and selling them as the new thing. The pendulum of "thick clients" vs. "thin clients" is well known in the computer industry. Reinventing things is necessary to create new markets and fill them with new products. A smartphone allowed telecom companies to sell $100/mo plans with extra charges where previously a $25/mo plan was seen as an overkill. A smartphone is nothing but a new Tamagotchi that you are expected to continually buy software for and pay for the connectivity, and listen to its every beep. But in the end it is not more valuable than the original Tamagotchi or a pet rock.
Indeed people are tired of the endless race, and when Microsoft reinvents Windows all they get is angry complaints. This is because the new Windows does not solve almost any new problem, but it creates lots of problems out of thin air. Progress is good, but humanity would be better off if MS would stop at Windows 7, continue to maintain it, and if they are that anxious to do something new they can create a new product, call it "Glass" or something, and promote that, completely separately and without messing with millions of users of Windows.
I don't know how anyone can stand the shit interfaces of gmail,hotmail, yahoo etc. even the metro mail is a step up from them. regardless their are a ton of good email clients out their that have the features whined about in the article, and for the majority that don't give a crap about them they will continue to use whatever is installed on their machine of choice.
I agree. Every other roll out MS has done was a money grab. 98 should have been 98SE, ME should have been XP. Vista should have been 7.
I don't really mind as long as they release products that are better than the last one. 98 was better than 95 so fair enough IMO, even though SE came shortly after. Vista was a "had to ship" release, it was 5 years since XP and they couldn't wait another 3 years for it to be Win7. But WinME... yeah, that's what computers run in hell. Not the one Satan and the devils use of course, but all those for the (soon to be) tormented souls. And there's a full library with every flavor of Linux, but the USB ports are all glued shut and there's no optical drive. Oddly enough, the user support is still the same service outsourced to Hydrabad...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I don't see that with the Google Apps for Business account I read through TBird at home and webmail when I'm not. There's one extra [GMail] folder in the inbox tree, but once you click it open, it stays open forever.
My GMail tags are interpreted as folders by Thunderbird, and my Thunderbird folders show up as tags in GMail.
I have seen nightmare scenarios with Mega-multi-subfoldered Outlook inbox trees becoming a wall of impenetrable garbage when imported to GMail with the poorly-supported (and non-free!) Google Apps Sync for Outlook plugin. Is that what you're thinking of?
Sort by author. I bet your life that you can't.
Basic feature, not present. Ooh! Dat google logo make noise an I can clikkit!
Google made a moog dedicated web audio interface.... gmail still lacks basic features. Trash company. Nacho cheese quality products for the "always owned chinese products" low expectation generation.
I have multiple web email accounts, and most of them aren't google.
1) No, it was boring because it was boring. Did you know that the cameras used to film this movie were the same ones used to film the iconic shots in Bay Watch?
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
That's because everything google does is half baked.
Do no evil? Do nothing well! (Except search)
Do you prefer the model where your tablet has a remote code execution exploit triggered by opening a PDF file in the browser from any random website, for several months?
MS has embedded its security software in Win 8. Will Semantec, McAfee and free Antivirus software makers sue MS?
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
I almost never check mail on my laptop anymore. The mail apps that come bundled with Windows Phone 7 are so quick, reliable and easy to use that I use them exclusively. I still write lengthy emails on my laptop, though.
Wow, people still use these?
Gmail works offline. With a connection it works great too are you on dial up?
Technically Yahoo supports IMAP on mobile devices BUT not on desktop clients! Even if you are a paying customer.
Lo, what is this? I'm using Tbird to connect to Y! mail via IMAP!
http://ompldr.org/vZXFsYg/Screenshot.png
Obviously, you've been doing something wrong.
--
BMO
since when does Yahoo support IMAP?
Since Gmail has offered IMAP for free. Because Y! has to find a way to remain relevant somehow.
19.95 for pop3 access doesn't cut it when Gmail offers both IMAP and pop3 for free. To stop the exodus, they had to drop this.
--
BMO
I agree, nothing beats a good local mail client.
A few years ago I was on a cruse ship and using a mail client saved me heaps on Satellite internet charges. About 30 seconds to sync my email, then offline for the next hour or so while I read and reply to people. Another 30 seconds of syncing, done.
I did feel sorry for the poor sods using webmail. I saw some of the smarter ones saving pages as html docs for offline reading. They would then type their reply offline and later copy/paste it into the email they where replying to. The less smart users just copped huge usage charges.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
"no lost stuff, no hangs, no delays, no network-reachability issues or timeouts, no ads, no jscript, no worries about blocking and maintenance"
which describes my gmail experience.
With the added bonus I can access it anywhere.
With IMAP the parent probably has the option of web access.
An SQL query goes to a bar, walks up to a table and asks, "Mind if I join you?"
Do you mind elaborating on why?
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
This is precisely why I have been migrating all my XP clients using Outlook Express to Thunderbird when they upgraded to new Vista or Windows 7 systems. It was clear to me Microsoft was going to begin changing their mail app with each OS release (ie, it went to Windows Mail, then Windows Live Mail, and now whatever awful monstrocity this is) making it hard for users to adapt, and difficult for me to migrate messages, contacts, and settings. Thunderbird solves all of these issues.
thankfully fallacies like yours don't make good arguments..
Most of Microsoft applications on Windows 8 are in preview mode, and not complete. So better to wait than making such post.
Just off the top of my head.
Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
Not really. SP1 fixed most of the issues. There are still more people using Vista than OSX.
I know it's not a popular option around here, but when it comes to e-mail clients, MS Outlook has always been the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.
Life is not for the lazy.
http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/search/default.aspx?alpha=Vista
The still managed to kill mainstream support for it. So no one who's important is using it.
I guess the the stats show that is just most upgraded.
Many do. If you think about it, most people who use a smartphone and/or tablet (which are many) are using an included e-mail client in lieu of web-based interfaces. With Win8's ambition of being a tablet-friendly OS, the Metro e-mail client should be at least on par with all of the commonly-used clients seen in iOS, Android or even WP7.
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Woah! When did this happen?
T-bird just auto-configured IMAP for me in a matter of seconds!
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Actually, you forgot one: Star Trek: The Animated Series!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_The_Animated_Series
So in that case, it goes (good): TOS, TNG, Voyager. Personally, I only liked TOS and TNG of any of the Star Trek series. I know a fair number of people who like Voyager, but it always seemed "meh" to me. Same with DS9.
Of course, as noted below, the "rule" refers to the movies, in particular the even ones. I've never agreed with it, because ST4 is painful to watch, and I like the first movie, even if it's slow. I had a hard time with the Klingon in Undiscovered Country that was constantly quoting Shakespeare, alongside other quirks with the film, but it's not terrible.
And, I'll say it (which will invalidate any credibility I may have had until this point): I liked Generations. It's definitely flawed, and stupid the way Kirk dies, but I've always enjoyed Data's storyline in it, to the point that it redeems the movie in my eyes.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
Lots of us have many mail accounts, and many/most/all of them are not with Google. A good mail client is invaluable when you use many mail servers.
That is why you have Google pull your other mail into Gmail and add a label to it. All your mail in one convenient location, always available.
I ditched Thunderbird for Gmail some months ago and am very pleased with it.
-- The Internet is a too slow way of doing things, you'd never do without it.
For the first several points, Gmail works fine. Gmail can load POP email from other accounts/providers (no IMAP, though, which is a bummer), have a unified address book, reply from specific accounts, and has an offline mode.
For the vast majority of people, the webmail interface is more than fine--it's the best option for them. It lets them easily check email wherever they are and does exactly what they need. For certain (small) sets of power users, webmail interfaces aren't enough. For myself, I go back and forth between using webmail or a local client. Right now I'm using Sparrow, which is basically just a local version of Gmail that integrates nicely into OS X's Notification Center (or Growl for pre-Mountain Lion OS X). It doesn't have the advanced features that the big clients have, but it has basically zero configuration time and you're basically guaranteed that your inbox and labels will match what Sparrow shows, which is something I can't say for other clients I've used (at least, not without work).
If you can't convince them, convict them.
I used all-in-one myself. Very nice system for the 80s. Its a pity that DEC just like Nokia moved themselves from having a rich product to just trying to be a Microsoft OEM. I also was a very long term elm and then pine user. I always used to admire the people who used emacs mail which was so feature rich. I resisted moving to an HTML enabled email client for a long time but eventually far too high a percentage of my emails had rich content or attachments.
I think rich clients are the best of both worlds. I've been using yahoo mail for like 15 years now as my personal email. I have a rich client, but if something goes wrong logging on directly has been a big plus.
I agree with most of your comment but not your assessment of Windows 8. Microsoft did not create the situation of everyone having a cell phone with rich content on it. Microsoft did not create the situation of this cell phone requiring a whole slew of SaS services. Microsoft did not create the situation of these SaS services being better used mobile and managed from a desktop. That is a genuine new problem which didn't exist a decade before. The same way that in the 1990s the possibilities of WAN based applications via. the browser introduced new problems or the same way that the shift to 64 bit processors introduced new problems that required the shift to .NET. Microsoft cannot keep offering the same product forever even if they wanted to. Staying still would be to effectuate change.
The new problem that Microsoft is addressing with Windows 8 is this list which is new:
a) Every consumer owns a smartphone for every person loaded with apps and rich content.
b) A large number want to use tablets that are ARM (low power, low functionality CPUs) with very high battery life and touch based
c) A large number want to use tablets plus keyboard to be able to do work
d) Virtually every consumer wants a laptop, a full featured portable personal system with a high functionality CPU.
e) Virtually every consumer needs a workplace computer, which is either a desktop or laptop. Many want to be able to do some level of sharing between their workplace and home systems either work on a BYOD or access home services from a workplace computer. This frequently is addressed by virtualization i.e. guest operating systems in addition to their native operating systems.
The problem that Microsoft / Windows 8 is addressing is that society does not want the cost and integration expenses of (a)-(e) evolving into 5 totally separate technology infrastructures. That is a real problem and it is new. This isn't something Microsoft created or that Windows 7 is capable of addressing. Someone may agree or disagree with the Metro approach to solving this problem, but I don't think it is reasonable to argue that no problem exists.
Dude, your internet connection is worse than mine. Don blame the cloud for your shit connection. I've been using shitty squirrel mail forever and it works fine--although it is clunky. I have all my mail no matter what device I'm on. I can see that if you never leave your mom's basement a desktop client would be peachy.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Your suggestion about postbox is a good one. And you are right. About halfway through writing that list I decided to grab a list from an existing rich mail client and picked postbox. :)
Second, why do so many people want a calendar in their mail client? Communication between different a calendar and a mail app I understand for things like invites. However, if you want the enterprise level features that come with Exchange/Outlook, just use them.
Outlook for Windows is a terrific client. The problem is it doesn't work well without exchange. I want exchange type features but with the client not the server doing the heavy lifting. The same way my client intermixes two email streams, and does invites is there any reason it can't do task management? People who don't work for large corporations still need task management and they need it on all their devices.
If MS made a good mail client that was built in to windows, then it could potentially reduce sales of outlook.. MS are very scared of competing with themselves and reducing sales of their existing products.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
Why did he get modded down? I honestly haven't seen a email client user in the shop in...ohhh...has to be at least 6 years now. Come to think of it I have exactly ONE email client user and that is my 74 year old ex landlady.
While I'm sure there are some here using it, hell I wouldn't be surprised if we have some gopher users here, the consumers just don't use email clients anymore and haven't in years. i know what you are gonna say, that corporate does, but have you SEEN Windows 8? Its a tweeting twitting FB shitting social mess of an OS! Corporate ain't gonna take that crap! besides most corp users are addicted to all the extras in outlook like planning meetings more than the actual email part.
Look we ALL know Win 8 is a half baked "Hail Mary" play by MSFT to grab a hold of some of the mobile sector, the odds of it working are practically nil, and the whole thing has the stench of desperation and failure about it, but that doesn't mean the guy doesn't have a point. Go talk to any 20 something around your local college, ask 'em what email client they use. You'll hear Google or Yahoo, the thought that you mean an actual program to access email won't even cross their minds. Email clients are as dead as Disco Stu's clothes, that is why Moz is walking away from TBird, people just don't use them hardly anymore.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
I agree with your list 100%. Don't ask me where I heard this but once I read it it FINALLY made sense to me what was wrong with TNG Star Trek series, even First contact just kinda grated on me until it was explained to me then it was like a giant light bulb...there are TWO Picards!
Watch TNG the series and pay attention to Picard, he was the chess player to Kirk's poker player. I mean this was a guy that when given a chance to completely wipe out the borg, after they had brutalized him, he refused because it would have meant genocide. Now compare THAT Picard to what you get in the movies, what you get in the films is "crazy action hero Picard" who is yelling and blasting and not even following common sense much less any logic or reason as was his character. Remember in First Contact, which is supposed to be "the good one" how he tells Worf NOT to shoot the deflector array, because it could be extremely dangerous? So what does he do? Why he shoots right beside it to blast a Borg! And notice how quick he is to blast is own people who get assimilated? The reason why the number theme doesn't work with TNG is they tried to get the main character to act like Bruce Willis instead of who he was in the series and it just didn't work.
As for TFA? I'm just glad Win 7 is good until 2020, don't want that social media mess of a smartphone OS on my desktop thank you VERY much. The closer it gets to release the more half assed and half baked it seems, I mean WinRT with no AD support? No functional mail app when corporate is the one that still uses mail apps? Ballmer i hate to be the one who has to break the news to ya but you are NOT Apple, consumers don't give a rat's ass about Windows and you are screwing up the features that would get your bread and butter business customers to take your new OS. How they can royally fuck up so badly after the rock solid Win 7? I guess that is what fear does to ya, it makes you sloppy.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
We have that abomination at work. The poor quality of Outlook + google sync + Google is being used as a reason for explaining why Outlook is bad. At home I use Linux so I tend to be biased towards most Linux items, but Outlook's by far my favorite email / productivity client. (My wife uses Outlook to connect to Google "normally" with no problems.)
So, agreed!
Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
Ditto - gmail + thunderbird for a local backup so I don't lose anything should gmail ever go AWOL.
The best thing for me about gmail (in apps) is that I can point my domains MX records at it and avoid the issues of mail sent via an ISP from my domain being flagged as spam because domain lookups don't match. That, and being able to access the mail on my phone, tablet, work PC and at home. Oh, and the search blows away any desktop client I've used.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
No, because I that would violate HIPAA laws if I did that. I recieve many emails that contain patient information. I need to reply back to them on the same mail server system that they originated from. Passing the emails to/through a foreign system is not acceptable. Most hospital systems I work with will automatically block any emails sent to outside addresses if the email seem to include HIPAA data in the content filters. Those must be sent through other, more secure means.
Gmail is *NOT* the answer to everything.
That is why you have Google pull your other mail into Gmail and add a label to it. All your mail in one convenient location, always available.
Except Google's web mail interface is shit, so why in the world would he do that?
Not even their search works as well as it used to; at least, the email search doesn't.
Just update the rule to "even digital sum". The digital sum of one-digit numbers (1 to 9) is odd iff the number itself is odd. The digital sum of 10 is 1, which is odd.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Try it, its free to download, and then you'll find out as i did in the shop that this is typical of the user experience on Windows 8. I'm sorry, but whether you are a fan of MSFT or not its just not a good UI design. its NOT intuitive, NOT easily discoverable, hell it not only doesn't follow desktop conventions but it doesn't follow cell phone conventions either, and its lack of tooltips or any kind of prompting just leaves the user feeling lost and frustrated.
So please, don't take anyone's word for it, download the RP and see for yourself. I've had everyone from teens to little old ladies trying out the CP at the shop and I have yet to see anyone "just pick up" Windows 8 without seriously struggling with it, its just not a good design.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Yes, people with jobs. Jobs in corporations, government, education, etc. Communications in the business world are not conducted via FB messages/IM and SMS. You may think email is quickly dying but I can assure you it is not. Don't let your personal/social life perspective mislead you.
Keep the Classic Slashdot.
Strangely, I agree with the guy. Although I'd like to add:
ST:TMP -> probably good if you didn't see 2001. It was released over 10 years after 2001 when Star Wars was everywhere and people weren't expecting to see things like 2001.
ST:IV was... corny nostalgia, but I can't argue. It was a very successful film.
ST:Nemesis was an okay remake of ST:The Wrath of Khan, but there are a lot of fans who never got into TOS, so it's forgivable.
ST:TOS has a lot of post-WW2 influence. Particularly in sub warfare. It's strongest in TOS (see Balance of Terror... big racial issues there too), but weakens after TNG, which seems to be mostly influenced by the boring era of cold wars, superpowers, stable politics and diplomacy.
...and Gmail is not a good answer to anything.
Do you mind elaborating on why?
a) because having a separate tab or window for all my mail accounts is far less inconvenient than having it all in one in thunderbird.
b) i tend to have a lot of browser tabs and windows open already. The last thing in the world I want is to have all my email windows lumped in with those. I like my email windows to be a separate icon and stack on the taskbar.
I certainly do. Best way for me to manage my multiple email accounts with multiple servers.
This thing has a Vista-rushed-to-market feel about it.
Your post came at the right time for me; I'm in the middle of switching my company email store from POP3 to IMAP, mainly so I can see the same email on my laptop, desktop, tablet, and even (only in an emergency; I'm not a masochist) my smartphone.
I finally decided to have only one main email account, and forward every email address to it. That makes it easier to sort and manage email (if you're reading more than one account with a desktop email client, you probably know what I mean). True I get my important business email, my junk email, and even my personal email, all in one inbox, but I'm learning how to use Sieve. Now it doesn't matter on which client I sort my emails into various folders, every client shows the result.
True most email clients aren't that good at human interfaces to Sieve yet, but that will chane with time and use, and in the meantime, the RoundCube webmail client does the job admirably (and as I've written, the resulting rules will work no matter which client you use to read your email). You don't need a provider who uses RoundCube; you can run it locally and point it to any imap store.
Note this is a work on progress for me; today is the first day I'm actually writing the sort rules. I may feel differently tomorrow, but today, so far so good.
For the vast majority of people, the webmail interface is more than fine--it's the best option for them.
Cool story bro. What about me, though?
I'll stick with Thunderbird--thanks.
People still use desktop email clients?
I guess it should be noted that for Win8 Pro (not WinRT), if the lame Metro email client doesn't work for you, you can always install Windows Live Mail on the desktop and continue to work exactly like you always did in Windows 7.
I imagine the Mail client, along with the others, will continue to get aggressive upgdates after Win8 release, via the Microsoft App Store. Since they finalized the WinRT APIs that Metro Apps use only since the "Release Preview" it doesn't really shock me that the apps are behind. But I think it's missing the point to assume that the state of the apps at release is exactly how they'll be a month or three after release... the apps can and will be updated independently, post-Win8-release.
But yeah, as it stands now, it's lame enough for me to consider it unusable and worthless. There are some, though, who ONLY have email on gmail or hotmail or exhange, who will be able to function with it.
- Spryguy
There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
Do you prefer the model where your tablet has a remote code execution exploit triggered by opening a PDF file in the browser from any random website, for several months?
No. But is there a reasonable expectation that W8 is not going to be like every other OS they have brought out? People can mark my posts as trolling, but I supported a number of Windows machines that went bonkers after updates, including one that I had to take off line because it would get to a certain point in the update list, then go into infinite reboot mode. Bricked. Machines that have programs that just quit working. Updates that make system changes that were unwanted, like making the system "more secure" by turning off features that you then have to re-enable to get a program to work. Even automagically turning on automatic updates on a personal machine, which I found out about at a cafe when the machine downloaded an update. There's a reason I turn off auto updating, and it's because I use my machine at these places some times. Sounds like a security conundrum to me.
I don't want any of that stuff. I want a working machine that isn't a fight to keep running.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
So long as we're trading anecdotes, I have an iPad which refuses to update ("network connection timed out"). I also have a PC and a laptop, both running Windows 7, that have had WU enabled with auto-install, and haven't been bricked in the three years that have passed since they were set up that way.
i think the releases where they try and add a bunch of new shit suck, then they scale it back for the next release and make it suck less.
This is a joke. I am joking. Joke joke joke.
Sounds like we are both happy. I don't have to support or use Windows any more, and your experience with Windows has been problem free. Everyone wins.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Actually, no. A lot of customers I had to work with would use their ISP-assigned email address and whatever mail client shipped with the machine (or was most readily available - Windows Live Mail, for example... bleck). It would be nice if these people used webmail, because then they'd not suffer quite so bad from catastrophic HDD failure. (Joe Average user not backing up is a good argument for the cloud, incidentally).
Also, if you get at all rural (I live in New Zealand and worked at a shop that served rural customers), webmail is not an option if you're on dial-up, trust me.
Windows Phone 8 will be released at the same time as Windows 8, so it will no longer be behind once it is released.
Thanks for the info !