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Why We Should Remain Skeptical of the Ouya Android Console
An anonymous reader writes "We recently talked about the 'Ouya' console — a conceptual Android-based gaming device that's had a massively successful Kickstarter campaign. While most people are excited about such a non-traditional console, editorials at 1Up and Eurogamer have expressed some more realistic skepticism about the claims being made and the company's ability to meet those claims. Quoting: 'Even if we set aside the issue of install base, one of Ouya's selling points could make developers wary of investing in it. Through the pitch video and on the Kickstarter page, Ouya emphasizes the ability to root the system and hack it without fear of voiding the warranty. With a standard USB port and Bluetooth support, it will be possible to use controllers and peripherals with it other than the one it comes with. What this also opens the door for is piracy and emulation. No doubt a chunk of the audience interested in Ouya are those intrigued by the idea of having a box that hooks up to a TV and can run Super Nintendo or Genesis emulators. Others will look at the system's open nature as an invitation to play its games for free; if it's as open as advertised, it should not be difficult to obtain and run illegally downloaded copies of Ouya games.' Ouya CEO Julia Uhrman has responded to the skepticism, saying, 'Ouya will be just as secure as any other Android-powered device. In fact, because all the paid content will require authentication with Ouya's servers, we have an added layer of security. Hacking and openness are about getting what you want to do with the hardware. Rooting the device won't give you any more access to the software.'"
I realise that businessmen have had it easy since the '80s, but at least there was the vague principle that people invest their money in return for some proprietary interest in the ongoing concern. Kickstarter appears to be the epitome of fawning obsequience to the owning classes, where people contribute money in return for a single trinket.
Personally I'd more concerned by Android bugbear - fragmentation of platforms.
What is the upgrade path? Annual incremental spec upgrades?
- with incremental upgrades, you'll get massive fragmentation for gaming and within a couple of year the choice of targeting the lowest common denominator (which is already pretty low for this hardware)
- without incremental upgrades, you disappoint the embedded systems/HTPC/hacker crowd
I doubt this can be "everything to everyone" and will prove to be a bigger long term issue than openness (or the economic of software development for a fairly low volume platform).
"all the paid content will require authentication with Ouya's servers"
So it'll have Ubi-style always-on DRM. Nice.
I was kind of interested in this project, but upon reflection I'm getting increasingly more sceptical. Too many spurious claims, not enough hard detail. I'll see how (if) it pans out, but I'm glad I'm not a backer.
I'd be worried they completely overextended on the Kickstarter rewards. They may have raised $5M so far, but they also owe:
* About 8% of that to Kickstarter & Amazon (= $400,000)
* 35,000 consoles and controllers to their backers
Manufacturing and fulfillment on 35,000 consoles is going to take an awfully large bite out of their (so far) $4.6M net from Kickstarter.
Doesn't look like it.
I'm an electronics designer and the first thing that jumps out at me is that they want to use a Tegra 3 processor. From having detailed conversations with another SoC manufacturer in the same class I'm certain there is no chance in hell they will be able to purchase that processor with only, say, 50k consoles being produced (35k Kickstarter backers at the time of writing).
When we tried it the SoC manufacturer was willing to deal with us at a level of 1 million units and stated they might _consider_ 500k units/pa if we could guarantee a ramp-up.
So this sounds like a total load of shit based on that single glaring fact.
The easiest way to avoid the emulation issue (which I assume is a concern due to piracy) is to produce those games for the console in the first place and sell them at a reasonable price point. After all, the production costs will be lower. They already have the graphics and sound assets developed. The code should be easier to rewrite too.
Avoiding piracy in general is a harder issue though. Making it difficult to get any software onto or off of these systems has definitely been effective in discouraging piracy in some (albeit not all) circles.
Yeah, I was interested in it mostly as an emulation machine. Anything wrong about that?
Circumcision is child abuse.
Would it be because the Ouya uses a shity ARM processor? Since the Neocons are shifting all of Americas wealth to Briton. The poor American will only be able to afford shitty ARM processor or Intel ATOMS processor. I can hardly wait for my first laptop with an ARM processor.
unless they get their game dev funded by Kickstarter.
Just can't let go of old school business models huh?
It's already trivially easy to pirate games on all the other gaming platforms... And most of them are also capable of running emulators.
What's really needed however, is a modern day equivalent of the Amiga. A system with a good selection of games, the insert and boot simplicity of a console, and a proper computer underpinning the system that allows people to learn more should they wish to do so. Think about it like this:
Parents don't want to buy their kids a games console because it's not very educational, all it does is play games.
Kids may not be terribly interested in learning how a computer works to start with, but if the facility is there then curiosity will often get the better of them.
Most importantly, the system needs to encourage people to learn about it, and needs to have a simple procedure to return it to a working state regardless of how much you've messed with it.
As for piracy, all the various anti piracy measures do is limit casual piracy, that is kids sharing copies of games with friends, or buying a single copy of a game to play at a lan party... These schemes inevitably get cracked anyway, and instead of buying one copy to share those kids will simply obtain a pirate copy to start with.
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Fragmentation is a mindless talking point. The Apps I write for Android target 2.2, thats 98% of the market. If you want the newer APIs, then bundle the compatibility lib.
I don't want Ouya to be continually upgrading, because it will continually be breaking like my Windows PC does, or like the XBox did before I sold it.
I won't be disappointed that it doesn't continually change under my program, quite the reverse, I will be pleased of the stability. I like it that my Android tablet from January last year still runs the software I wrote for it, exactly and predictably as it did when I bought it. I hope in 5 years time it will run the same software exactly as it does not.
The digital hats you will be buying are on their servers not your console. It should be possible to make this 100% secure. Banks don't mind you running Linux on a toaster to connect to your account and they have a lot more to lose.
Saying that they are still 100-1000 fold away of being able to get a Tegra3 console out the door. They should have proved the market by sticking a badge on a cheep Chinese ARM.
And it's a pretty obvious necessity. The lockdown of hardware and the business model for selling software are parts of the same problem. You can't change one without changing the other as well. Open games require open hardware, and vice versa.
sounds like they are writing on behalf of their advertising-customers. nobody expects the mother of all consoles for 95$. it's supposed to be a small, cheap & hackable gaming toy - nothing more. sure, most arguments are valid - but they are not as important when you consider the price-point.
Yes, there are games that run on the iPad in better than 1080p, but are they 2D, 3D with simple shaders, or 3D with sophisticated shaders? A higher pixel count on the same GPU means a lower fill rate unless you simplify your pixel shaders. It also means that extreme low-polygon meshes won't look as good, forcing artists to make higher-polygon meshes that stress the vertex shader hardware.
The Ouya is okay for today, but it'll be decidedly shoddy in five years' time
That's what wii said about the last budget console wii saw, but for a while, wii ended up seeing it printing money.
Yeah, I was interested in it mostly as an emulation machine. Anything wrong about that?
Nothing wrong with your interest, but perception as "an emulation machine" will hurt the console's chance of success. For one thing, AAA video game publishers probably don't want to publish on the same platform that's known to be widely sold for the express purpose of emulating infringing copies of their own game. Then the AAA video game publishers might try suing the manufacturer for contributory infringement, claiming that the device's noninfringing use is not substantial and therefore does not qualify for a defense under Sony v. Universal. In fact, I was told on Fedora legal that Red Hat's fear of having to spend attorney's fees on such a lawsuit is why Fedora doesn't carry NES emulators in its repository, despite the existence of freely licensed homebrew games for NES.
These skeptics can't string two original thoughts together: fuss-potting on the DRM aspect, which is clearly not the main focus of this new console!
Time to wake up, The Humble Bundle statistics prove that DRM-free games are indeed wanted.
Similarly, and open gaming platform is much needed. The corporates are just afraid of losing their fatty grips.
They are clearly making these claims to attract big commercial developers. This is a mistake as those developers will not come. They should be trying to attract indy developers with free to play content.
I thought they were targeting the major labels because most end users are thought to give neither a damn nor a fuck about indie games. If people like CronoCloud are to be believed, end users want games developed by people who have paid their dues to the video gaming establishment by moving to Austin, Boston, or Seattle and working on someone else's project.
The Humble Bundle statistics prove that DRM-free games are indeed wanted.
The Humble Bundles are the exception to the rule; almost no indie game makes it even that far because if CronoCloud is to be believed, people give neither a damn nor a fuck about indie games. I seem to remember that a lot of the games in Humble Bundles are only popular because their developers are known for having worked for the establishment. And even among the exceptions, none of the Humble Bundles has yet sold a million copies. Compare to the million-selling mark used for "Player's Choice" or "Greatest Hits" or "Platinum Hits" branding among major-label console games.
Similarly, and open gaming platform is much needed.
An open gaming platform exists; it's called the PC. PCs can use USB game controllers or wireless game controllers with a USB dongle. Please convince me of why an open gaming platform marketed for connection to a television is needed.
I kinda thought that all the fake footage (Gears of War? Really? Madden? Minecraft? They were busted about their Minecraft statement) and the fake development board in the marketing material (Go check, doesn't match speak, definitely no Tegra3, too many USB ports.) gave it away.
Who's "we"? I understand that the DRM folks might raise their eyebrows (and with no reason, since rooting an Android device doesn't defeat its DRM schemes, but that's another question). But why shoud "we" care?
How awful. You buy this hardware. Then you can control what runs on it?
Seriously?
Someone should go shoot someone else. It's against everything that's right
to be able to run whatever you want on your own hardware. That you paid for.
That you purchased. That you own. That you should be able to do whatever
you damn well please.
RMS said it best.
E
And exactly why are you stroking CronoCloud's cock? Between the Humble Bundle, Indie Royale & the success of the Indie Bundles on Steam, surely you must by now realize he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
And exactly why are you stroking CronoCloud's [rooster]?
Because every single time I've come out in favor of indie games on Slashdot, he has come out strongly against me. He thinks the only way to make money from video games, apart from a handful of exceptions, is to work for the establishment in Austin, Boston, or Seattle before starting on your own original production.
Between the Humble Bundle, Indie Royale & the success of the Indie Bundles on Steam
How many of those bundles had games designed for the living room? Do fighting games and games like Bomberman, where every player's character is on the screen anyway, work better if each player has to use a separate screen and a separate copy of the game?
If this device isn't really all that then why the effort to create "anti-hype"? If it can't deliver on it's promises, then just let it die quietly. There is really no need to go out of your way to FUD the thing.
Really. Why bother?
Are you some pathetic loser with no life that has to troll some niche product like a bully pulling the wings off flies or are you trying for some perverse Streisand Effect?
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Because those monitors are usually on desks
And bedroom TVs tended to be on dressers. All you really need to play 2-player shared-screen games on a PC are a second chair and a couple gamepads, yet conventional wisdom is that even that is too much of a hurdle.
Their CEO seems extraordinarily naive. "Hacking and openness are about getting what you want to do with the hardware." Well, sure, AND it's about doing things with the hardware that the corporate overlords don't want you doing. Like playing emulators and pirated games.
Meh.
Ouya will be just as secure as any other Android-powered device. In fact, because all the paid content will require authentication with Ouya's servers, we have an added layer of security. Hacking and openness are about getting what you want to do with the hardware. Rooting the device won't give you any more access to the software.
Since this company doesn't understand the meaning of rooting, or openness, they are going to be very disappointed.
Also, it makes me think you'll need to buy the apps that work thru Ouya, via Ouya, for them to authenticate it. So I'm guessing if you already own 3 versions of Angry Birds, you'll need to buy another to play it on the Ouya.
Anyways, when you make an item like this, doing a loss on hardware sales is stupid. You make it cheap enough that you can either break even, or make a small profit on the hardware sold. Add in a Xbox Live type Online System, with adds and lots of content, and make you're money that way. But keep it cheap. You do NOT need triple AAA titles, like Call of Duty on this thing, just fun time wasters, not unlike the stuff that Nintendo does.
Grab your niche and be happy with that, don't try to be everything, like pretty much, everyone else tries to do these days.
Be seeing you...
So people are saying oh noes it will be open and you will be able to pirate software this console will fail! Trying to force the companies hand to implement security measures. Then out of the other side of their mouths saying oh noes this console is using ubi soft always on phone home drm as a security measure its not open at all this console will fail. Dear ouya dont listen to these morons go for the open approach ignore all the bs!
Those are totally absurd fears on the part of industry investors. Anyone with the know-how to accomplish these pirating techniques with a cookie-cutter Android system is more than capable of doing so with any other Linux- or Windows-based system, and there are no shortage of those with HDMI ports. Anyone with a desire to build an emulation console and an IQ high enough to formulate Google searches could build their own, or easily convert any of the breadbox PCs available on the market, /right now/.
That train has left the station. It left a long, long time ago.
all of those suckers that pledged over $3 million....stuff like this already exists at www.aliexpress.com...
On the hack side: every console is hackable to a point that you can play "backup" games on any console. Hell, I soldered my old ps1 myself and took me around 20 minutes and it worked. lots of sites exist which you can order the equipment and they ship you a DIY kit.
Hardware opinion: you can put in the most powerful equipment in a console but it all comes down on how to code it since all i've been getting feedback on that side is that new consoles tends to be a problem on the coding side.
Biggest problems imho: controls in the game. No matter what console you use, if you play a game with bad control, the game will get refunded...or uninstalled. Open source console or not, this will be a problem so this is a dev problem, not console.
Glitch, bugs, and camera problems: all present in ALL consoles, open source or not, this will be a problem. Again this is a problem with devs, not console.
Conclusion: this is clear in my post that my problem relies on the developer side as they tend to release games with bad control, bad camera (layout or movement...both sometimes) and lots of bugs and glitches. But since this is a open source, maybe it will be less of a problem since the devs will have a chance to update their games if they have the oportunity to do so as I don't have all those details. This is compared to closed source games console like xbox or ps3 as when a game is released with bugs or bad control, they stay with bad controls and bugs.
Some of the more 'high-end' Android 3D games support controllers - I have Max Payne, Shadowgun THD, and Dead Trigger, all of which support the PS3 controller with no extra configuration. I haven't had time to play with emulation yet, that's coming, and the emulators out there support controllers, too.
Of course, the Prime costs a bunch more than the Ouya is supposed to cost. I'm still dubious about them getting things ready in time, and getting developer support... but from a technical perspective, it's almost a solved problem.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Granted, these guys didn't have Kickstarter available when they first began work on this project. Granted, development of each release has been agonizingly slow. But if you're looking for a small, open console that plays a bunch of games, why buy Ouya when this is out there? Seriously. If these guys ever get serious dough rolling in, the price on these would drop through the floor now that all the sunk costs have been paid for. I want one. Now. It's definitely high on my list to buy once we get our debt paid down.
This article starts with completely the wrong premise. Platforms don't become popular because of DRM. DRM gets put on popular platforms because there is nothing the purchaser can do about it other than do without. The idea that EA would choose not to earn a million dollars on non-DRMed software because they could have gotten 2 million if DRM was in place is ridiculous.
I point to http://www.gog.com./ If an inexpensive console had just that DRM free library of games, it would be a viable platform. There is no question that DRM free software can make money.
That is why the IBM PC was such a failure and Microsoft never made any money writing software for the PC platform.
While I wish he wouldn't quote me, the humble indie bundles are the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of indie games are suck not worth playing And part of the HIB success was that you could pay as little as a penny for them. IIRC most paid a buck or less, with LInux users actually tending to pay more, believe it or not.
The lure wasn't in their "indie" status which some people brag about just for geek street cred, but the fact that they were "almost free" And even then the things were STILL pirated.
And lets take a look at what was in the first bundle:
World of Goo by 2D Boy,
And look what I find on wikipedia:
2D Boy is an American independent video game development company founded by Kyle Gabler and Ron Carmel, former Electronic Arts employees who left their jobs to form an independent development and production company.
So they were professionals with industry experience BEFORE doing World of Goo.
Aquaria by Bit Blot,
From Wikipedia:
Aquaria was developed by Derek Yu and Alec Holowka over the course of two years, off of a concept that Holowka had thought of a year prior.[20] Yu was the lead artist, and Holowka handled the programming and audio components. Both designers had previously worked in video games; Yu had made several freeware games, including I'm O.K with Holowka and others, while Holowka had worked for several video game start-ups, none of which had ever gotten a game published.
Penumbra: Overture by Frictional Games
Frictional games isn't a "one guy in grandma's basement" operation, they even rely on external people for somet hings. Penumbra was originally designed as a tech demo to show of their game engine,
Lugaru HD by Wolfire Games.
Wolfire games was founded in 2001 and had done some games before Lugaru, starting out developing of Mac OS 9.
Now even though they aren't attached to a big publisher, none of these dev houses is truly "indie". They didn't come out of nowhere, many of them already had industry experience. Personally I think "Indie" should be treated as a marketing term, nothing more nothing less, an attempt to get street cred by a small dev house that might not be widely known, but that has already had commercial sucess.
And need I remind you that the last HIB contained 3 games that had been distributed by large publishers, (Psychonauts? Indie?)and games by developers that already had a game included in an earlier HIB and thusly, wasn't really all that indie to begin with.
And finally, putting the bundles on Steam effectively gives the games a "Big Publisher" arrangement, making them not-so-indie anymore.
You worship at the indie altar too much, that's why I speak out against "indie". There's good indie games, yes, but as I say, many "indie" developers aren't really all that indie in the first place. I resent the use of "indie" as a "street cred" marketing term by professional game developer houses that have years of experience. I also think too many slashdotters are falling allover themselves to trumpet the indie bandwagon just for their own street cred her on slashdot.
How many of those bundles had games designed for the living room?
Several bundles had games that ended up on one or more of the PS3, Wii, or 360.
Do fighting games and games like Bomberman, where every player's character is on the screen anyway, work better if each player has to use a separate screen and a separate copy of the game?
For adults who didn't babysit a bunch of kids with older systems connected to SDTV's,,,,,yes.
You did know there was an online Bomberman didn't you? People who grew up playing Bomberman on their NES/SNES are now adults. They can't do that "afterschool at the babysitters/college dorm room" multi like they used to because scheduling is harder....so online multi. And since the average gamer is an adult, online multi is the way to go.
Sure some games offer same screen too, but really...online multi is more convenient.
A free-of-charge SDK is not "open." Sorry. And please stop designing systems with DRM. Why are you morons so willing to design defects into your software? Hell, you're targeting indy developers, not billion dollar game studios. Please, feel free to go fuck yourself with your DRM. If I can't buy something without DRM attached to it, I always pirate it instead since then I actually have control. If I ever purchased an Ouya, I would absolutely pirate every single game so that I can play them on my PC and on my other Android devices, too.
Let's just replace "Ouya" by "PCs"...
With a standard USB port and Bluetooth support, it will be possible to use controllers and peripherals with it other than the one it comes with. What this also opens the door for is piracy and emulation. No doubt a chunk of the audience interested in PCs are those intrigued by the idea of having a box that hooks up to a TV and can run Super Nintendo or Genesis emulators. Others will look at the system's open nature as an invitation to play its games for free; if it's as open as advertised, it should not be difficult to obtain and run illegally downloaded copies of PC games.
Clearly no one will ever want to develop games for PCs.
"I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
"Ha ha, you all are stupid to play Goldeneye with a tiny little corner of a screen where you can see where each other are....real men play networked so you have your OWN screen"
Then I'll admit GoldenEye was a bad example. I should have mentioned a fighting game instead; those share the screen without splitting it.
the average gamer is an adult
I agree, but not all gamers are average. If all multiplayer games were targeted exclusively to "the average gamer" who is 17+, all games would be either single-player or rated M. And even if LAN multiplayer is superior to screen sharing in all cases, why is there no such thing as spawn installation anymore? The original StarCraft could be installed with a given product key, and that machine wouldn't be able to start a single-player game but could join a LAN or Battle.net game started by the owner of that product key.
So once a startup company has developed a fighting game that works on a PC, how should the startup company approach established publishers so that the game can be ported to a platform where it has a chance of actually selling?
I can load up an online game at any time of day or night and find someone to play with/against.
Provided that it's a game that allows play with strangers. A few games for Nintendo DS and Wii require a mutual out-of-band key exchange just to start a game. In any case, they disallow communication with strangers, except in a few limited cases that involve human curators employed by Nintendo (I can think of Everybody Votes Channel, Check Mii Out Channel, and WarioWare DIY theme contests).
And for those gamers, there are consoles.
An open gaming platform exists; it's called the PC. PCs can use USB game controllers or wireless game controllers with a USB dongle. Please convince me of why an open gaming platform marketed for connection to a television is needed.
It may be a fallacy to assume everybody will be carting their consoles wherever they go, yet I agree that PC's are the best choice for most of us here. Well said, Sir
While I wish he wouldn't quote me
It's the only way I know of to ask other people whether your opinion is the rule or the exception.
The vast majority of indie games are suck not worth playing
Yes, I'm aware that most of, say, XBLIG is Hello World crap, just as most of YouTube is crap and most of the web in general is crap. So would someone need to have self-produced something substantially better than "the vast majority of indie games" as freeware just to get a second interview for a job in the industry?
And finally, putting the bundles on Steam effectively gives the games a "Big Publisher" arrangement, making them not-so-indie anymore.
Any more than putting a game on Apple's App Store or Google Play Store or Amazon Appstore does?