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Debian Changes Default Desktop From GNOME To XFCE
An anonymous reader writes "The default desktop within Debian 7.0 'Wheezy' has changed from GNOME to Xfce. GNOME, KDE, and LXDE will continue to be available, but the decision was made to default to Xfce. The reported reasoning comes down to size constraints in fitting GNOME on a single CD."
There's a "default desktop" in Debian? I thought everyone just installed the netinst and used apt-get to install whatever desktop they wanted.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
I am okay with this. I've used XFCE on most linux server boxes for years anyway (if any graphical environment at all). Way more lightweight than Gnome or KDE and works great.
However... there are definitely some issues that bespeak a need for more polish. E.g. this one, or this one. Hopefully a bit more focused attention will lead to quicker fixes.
PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Whatever the reason is for the change, I will say "Thank god, thank you thank you thank you Debian developers".
And why is it important that a distribution fits on one?
Debian sounds a voice of reason within the community.
I wondered how they would tackle the infamous UI "situation", and this was the outcome I hoped everyone involved would have the guts to go forth with.
Rejoice for a surge of development activity for Xfce - a much more fruitful use of developer time than some other currently available UI sinks.
The article seems to imply Gnome 3 is to blame but surely the rest of Debian also increased in size.
I have one datapoint, I just installed gnome 3 in Openbsd 5.1 (It can be done and works surprisingly nice) and Obsd+X.org+Gnome3 fists completely inside a CD with a couple hundred MB to spare.
GNOME 3
Most folks grabbing debian are getting just the installer file (live-cd) and burning that to disk. If in the States, just go to your local library, college or university and grab the remainder of the disk images and put them onto a flash drive. The installer includes the ability to mount ISO images, so you have little to no problem unless the system is so old that it doesn't have USB ports. In that case, its too old to run the latest debian.
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Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
I always liked XFCE. Wasn't this the default on Sarge?
Torvalds said "I'm using Xfce. I think it's a step down from gnome2, but it's a huge step up from gnome3. Really"
Some of us learn from other people's mistakes and the rest of us have to be other people. -- Zig Ziglar
It's probably a sane choice to move debian away from gnome and towards xfce, but I wonder if the reason is very sound. They should have switched to DVD as the default ISO media many years ago, becuase people who are on such an old computer that it lacks a DVD will surely want to use the less than 200 MB netinstall ISO instead.
I think that it's still important with an offline-installable system, but limiting yourself to CD when DVD has been the standard for ages is just weird and shows of stagnation and "get off my lawn".
c++;
Why is a CD's capacity the deciding factor for a component with such broad repercussions throughout the OS? It's 2012, folks. How many new installations are really made or broken on what works from a 700MB CD when a 4.7GB DVD is an incredibly common substitute?
I'm not ridiculing this decision, despite my surprised tone. I'm actually interested in learning more about the reasoning behind it, if anyone has some more background.
Oh, don't worry about that; any excuse will do!
Forward! -- Emperor Norton, 2012
You were good for a while.
Nice knowing you.
If in the States
Here's a weird little fact. Many people don't live in the USA.
Many people also don't have unlimited access to the Internet, or unlimited money. For these reasons it makes sense to continue supporting the simplest, cheapest way of distributing software on physical media, and that is a CD-ROM.
people who are on such an old computer that it lacks a DVD
It's not that your computer lacks a DVD drive as much as lacking wired broadband Internet access to the home. Downloading a disc image that fills a single-layer DVD will use up most of the 5 GB per month data allowance typical of a home satellite or cellular Internet plan, as will downloading 5 GB of packages using the net installer.
FVWM baby!
You can have my SIG when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.
It's 2012, folks.
And in 2012, wireless ISPs still impose monthly caps not much more than the capacity of a 4.7 GB DVD. Or must everyone drive into town and find a library willing to let the user sit and download an entire DVD image to a flash drive? In 2012?
I used XFCE for a while years ago, after one of the bloatenings of Gnome. Switched back and had been pretty happy with Gnome until they started turning it into WebTV. Still struggled along with classic mode for a while, but they've been dumbing that as well. Switched back to XFCE and very pleased.
If you want a thin client for the cloud, Gnome/Windows 8/Mountain Lion/ChromeOS are all fine. If you want a computer, XFCE/Debian may be the best option.
I tend to think a divergence is inevitable. The masses don't want a computer and never did. They grudgingly used them because it was where all the good stuff was. Now that the oligarchs are offering convenience as an alternative to liberty, most people are lining up. The hardware manufacturers are falling right in line with UEFI, the network providers are pushing to cripple the nasty peer-to-peer design of the Internet, and everyone with an IQ below 120 (and a surprising percentage of those above) can easily be convinced they are happier this way. It's called progress.
Ummm, which is why I like XFCE... OK, bit of a digression there. But maybe that suggests a motto: "XFCE: Don't shuffle blandly into the decline."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
fvwm 1.4 for me. 1.4r? something like that.
I started with twm while at DEC (which worked great with DECwindows). after years of good luck with twm, I finally 'upgraded' to fvwm.
hard to get too much lighter weight than that. runs on ancient slow hardware and never takes up much resources. the only thing you need running is X! no other 'daemons' or sound this or graphics that or object otherthing. just plain fvwm and the term window you prefer.
after years of using workstations, I can't seem to justify 'desktops'. term windows launch apps that are text or graphic based. all works fine. and its the same UI I can count on, year after year.
I know, GOML. I know. but I still can't see any reason to leave fvwm for a 'desktop'. I don't think I'm missing anything.
(and of course I do 'xsetroot -solid black' in my .xinitrc. you mean, you don't??)
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
After release of GNOME 3 I moved into opposite direction (I was using xfce for many years).
Anyway it's a good thing, because I dislike GNOME/KDE integration of single applications, for instance I use k3b which is only usable dvd burner and it comes from KDE. If xfce will be default then maybe some people realize applications should work everywhere not fit GNOME desktop.
Gnome is going it's own way and that might not fit with what Debian wants to do.
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/08/08/1323228/gnome-developers-lay-out-plans-for-gnome-os
~~ Behold the flying cow with a rail gun! ~~
I moved to Bodhi Linux with its Enlightenment desktop, and like it. That's the fun thing - everyone can find their own escape route from Gnome3 since Linux offers so many choices.
Bodhi is very lightweight and was easy to configure (though it took me a day to figure out E17's vocabulary). I'm very happy, and it's a simple CD download, which is good - I don't have much bandwidth.
DVD downloads are a hassle, in my opinion. When it comes time to download one I usually resort to purchasing from one of the companies that advertises on distrowatch.org.
I highly recommend Bodhi though - it's very sharp and polished.
If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
I personally use the classic twm with it's organized menus and speed
you left out workstations. or thin clients.
my client is a linux MINT install, with fvwm to launch enough of an xterm so that I can start vncviewer.
vncserver runs on my always-on server, a true server (uptime over a year, now). all my browsing and editing happens there.
my workstation is a light e350 amd box with built in video. its all on the mobo and I needed no extra cards. the only 'risers' are the dimms!
this gets me a very reliable, low heat and low noise video window into the business-end of my systems.
I can turn the system off or let it go into power saver mode, then boot it back up the next day and resume my vnc session where I left off.
this isn't a server (the e350) and its not embedded. but its my 'desktop' in my quiet work room ('thinking room').
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
It's about time for XFCE to become the default of a major distro. Since 4.8, it's definitely been polished enough.
If only people didn't need to have 600Mb just to draw a couple of buttons and widgets on an XServer screen...
Well, yes, but that isn't really a power-saving solution. Besides, don't you think that leaving all your personal data on a 24/7 server is a bit risky?
Judging by the screenshots on their website, it looks unrefined and downright ugly compared to a modern desktop.
When I install a Linux distro, I generally just adapt to the default desktop environment, although my preference tends to be KDE.
My largest problem with GNOME is not its modularity or architecture, but the shear bulk of repitition of doing a single task. GNOME has become its own worst enemy and a victim of its own success -- open source (check!), lots of options (check! check!), even more options because someone forked (check! check! check! check! check!)...
True, but their nearly unlimited storage is full of cheap, uncensored, high quality porn. All that's left is a few blank CDs.
Debian is a desktop OS. What does a wireless ISP have to do with any of this?
Living outside the service area of DSL, cable, or fiber means you have to use dial-up, a satellite ISP, or a cellular ISP to connect the desktop computer to the Internet.
Queue the "OMG the default choice is NOW my favorite choice" comments.
Seriously anyone installing Debian straight no mixer does not care what DE is on the cd.
There's a scientifically/technically "correct" and a "correct" in layman's terms.
"Mega" is is defined by SI as 1E6 independent of the unit that follows it.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
I think you're a little confused. Gnome started out (in version 1) looking a lot like KDE, with a bar on the bottom, a foot icon that was like the K icon and the Windows "Start" button, etc. Then ver2 came out in the 2000s after a bunch of "usability studies" and it was much more minimalistic. Then ver3 came out and it just went off the deep end catering to idiots and trying to be touch-friendly on machines that don't have touchscreens. It's been a constant downhill slide. It's not "stuck in the 1990s", because UIs never looked like Gnome3 in the 90s; this touch-friendly crap is all brand new.
And we need to stick with PulseAudio unfortunately, because Linux audio is fundamentally broken. However, there's hope: some guy is writing an all new audio layer for the kernel (called "KLANG", IIRC), which promises to obsolete PulseAudio and JACK and replace ALSA, fixing all the problems Linux has with audio.
Pfff .. fitting on a CD, how last century.
Multiple floppies? Decedent capitalist pig-dog!
I did several installs starting from a single floppy with a kernel, shell, and ftp. Once on the network, nothing else is needed.
I use a P3 box for file server and linux desktop. P3 is rated for ~25W and I run it with a heatsink but no fan. With XFCE it's plenty snappy.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/ufiles/debian_netinstall.png
If you do a netinstall, there comes a point when you are asked if you want to install a "Standard system" and there is a choice for "Desktop environment" without any futher choice. In Debian, this meant gnome. If you do the same with ubuntu (minimal iso=netinstall), it shows a longer list with choices including lxde, xfce, kde an others.
http://i.imgur.com/DTFyq.png
Debian does have better tasksel choices, but they are not exposed by the installer. Sure, any pro user can stick to Standard system and after finishing, complete the install from the command line (either by running tasksel and or apt-get/aptitude, etc.
But the point is, if you do pick "Standard" and "Desktop" in the installer, it would install a gnome desktop.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
GNOME always had a huge load of dependencies, and this is only getting worse as time goes by. Yes, this includes 2.x, but most of us wouldn't bother because it was popular - most would simply keep it, some would install something else, and few would have the trouble of uninstalling it.
However, since lots of people hate GNOME 3, the odds of people needing to remove all its packages rise sharply: "I DON'T WANT THAT UGLY BLOAT IN MY SYSTEM!" isn't something unheard... keeping GNOME 3.x as default DE would be counter-productive both to Debian's loyal fanbase (giving them more work) and to new users (since most potential users are turned off by retarded defaults in any distro).
Yes, there is net-inst. No, you don't need to install even the default desktop. But people, when getting in touch with a distro, will first and foremost go by the easier way - using the defaults. So, while they probably weren't lying that Debian+GNOME isn't fitting a CD anymore, it's probably the least concern that made them drop it as default.
Nerdy news for your nerdy needs? http://www.soylentnews.org Soylent News is people!
If in the States
Here's a weird little fact. Many people don't live in the USA.
That'll have been why the paragraph included the qualifier "if in the States", then.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
So, you have a "thin" client that requires active cooling?
Why not go with an ARM solution with no active cooling? Heck, now the Raspberry Pi is out, you don't have to spend more than 35 dollars for that.
I can deal with some rough edges, and if more distros start picking them up as default and if the dev community is healthy, they'll soon pick up enough contributors to smooth those out.
But the xfce dev community doesn't really seem healthy. Instead, it seems to be composed of maladjusted 13-year-olds. Calling your project's utility for connecting additional filesystems a male prostitute "because it mounts what it is told to" may seem like a great laugh in the middle school locker room, but it's immature, offensive, and unprofessional, will turn users away from the project, and will guarantee its rejection for e.g. corporate desktop use.
I have been a fan of xfce in the past, used it quite a bit in the 3.x days, and have an xubuntu vm I use on occasion. But if it's to be a serious contender in the desktop space they have to consider that this isn't just for their own dogfood use and start considering the needs and sensibilities of their users rather than filling it with crass inside jokes between the developers.
You should give fvwm2 a try. It's pretty nice.
I switched to fvwm when I realized Xfce had given up on being CDE-like in favor of imitating GNOME. If I wanted GNOME I'd use GNOME. (But I'm not a person of below-average intelligence who has never seen a computer before, so I'm not in GNOME's target market.)
fvwm was pretty much the only wm I could find that provided decent configurability and still knew how to iconify windows, so it was a no-brainer.
Sadly, you are 100 % right.
UEFI may be the last nail in the coffin for widespread adoption of free operating systems.
Is there any hope?
I like my spaghetti with source.
XFCE is a fantastic DE that is very flexible, customizable, easy-to-use, and mature. It runs great on old and new hardware. It runs better over NFS than Gnome ever has, it works great over NX or VNC.
I've used it on-and-off since the very beginning. It has always been a stable DE that has managed to evolve over time without every significantly alienating its user base.
Every year or two I upgrade or replace the Linux side of our Linux dual-boot lab machines at work. Since at least 2006 I've been defaulting to XFCE (early 4.0 and newer.)
Not once have the students complained about the desktop. True, it isn't super-flashy but it works like a charm.
(And, as an added bonus, I can still make it look like BeOS if I want to.)
Hardware is more expensive and choice is limited to the big brands.
Hardware is more expensive than in the US certainly and new stuff tends to be delayed a bit but it's certainly not "limited to the big brands". There is plenty of unbranded crap and stuff from smaller brands available if that is what you want.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
Welcome to the future. 600MB is a tiny, squeaking fart of data.
Switching to DVDs probably just encourages bloat (e.g. GNOME3) when there are plenty of usable alternatives that fit current restrictions.
Automatically switching constraints to fit inside the next largest available media is like buying pants with larger and larger waists as you grow fatter and fatter. Sure, sometimes you need to actually get bigger pants (e.g. during a growth spurt when you're 12) but there comes a time when what you have is going to be good enough for a loooooong time (or at least, should be).
You don't see people yelling at others for wanting to fit in the pants they've been wearing for a while. Why is optical media any different? If your installer and default desktop environment is too big to fit in 700MB of space, then somebody's (or some bodies are) doing it wrong.
It's not just about constraints in resources, it's about the principle: I want my pants to fit forever, and so does Debian.
Yaaaayyy! around the world 34 geeks just spilled beer on their tighty whiteys,, crap.. I just spilled beer on my tighty whiteys,,,, make it 35....
It increases fragmentation. Our community is already tiny; we can't afford to be divided.
I switched from Gentoo to Ubuntu for this reason. I am now better informed to help people fix their Ubuntu problems; everyone benefits.
By the way, Unity is very good. it is beautiful, easy, convenient, fun, and saves screen real state.
I love Unity. It is beautiful, easy, convenient, fun and save screen real state.
I can only think that people who hate it do it simply because it is different.
And a huge, unmanageable MESS of code. Seriously, 100's of Mb of compiled binary is LUDICROUS for something that draws boxes on a screen.
Sure, executable sizes have grown, but 100's of Mb of CODE is still stupidly large. Data, pish, it's nothing. But, tell me, what *data* does a window manager need to store on every machine it touches? Localised text? Settings keywords? A few Mb of imagery? It's all code. And even the largest games/applications that took years to make aren't 100's of Mb's of binary code.
When you write things like these on Slashdot:
By the way, Unity is very good. it is beautiful, easy, convenient, fun, and saves screen real state.
You need to make it really, really clear that this is your genuine view etc. Otherwise it will be treated as a not so subtle attempt to troll.
However, there's hope: some guy is writing an all new audio layer for the kernel (called "KLANG", IIRC), which promises to obsolete PulseAudio and JACK and replace ALSA, fixing all the problems Linux has with audio.
He discovered a problem with those things: they weren't written by him? ~
Why is Slashdot so uniformly against Unity?
Comments with 4 or 5 mod points are almost entirely anti-Unity.
Yet many of my colleagues accept Unity. Ars Technica has positively reviewed Ubuntu 12.04. In Ubuntu Software center, , the average review is 3-star, but the most recent reviews are, on average, 4-star.
So why all the Slashdot hate?
Why is Slashdot so uniformly against Unity? Comments with 4 or 5 mod points are almost entirely anti-Unity.
Because most people here don't like Unity. You can read some of those upvoted comments to find out why.
Slashdot doesn't like a great many things. You don't have to follow the established trend, just don't get surprised if your posts are moderated according to said trend. Generally speaking, if you post something against groupthink here and don't want to be modded down, you should be prepared to defend your point of view with lengthy explanations and references - then you stand a fair chance of getting that "Insightful" or "Informative" mod. However, if you just post stuff like "X is good" or "Y sucks" with no further elaboration, the moderation score you're going to get depends solely on how much in line that is with the groupthink. Is that unfair? Perhaps, but its biases are part of what makes Slashdot what it is.
Thank you for that insight.
I prefer tiling&tabbing window manager, and a possibility for floating mode workplace is a plus, so ion3 (which has pwm3 for that floating mode thingy built-in) - with tiling I understood how unnecessary iconifying is (and a friend blamed my system stupid because "how on earth can I minimize this window?" - I just replied "why on earth would you need to!?).
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
Good point, even if we're actually talking about whole DE's, not plain WM's.... but then even the WM's today, namely those these DE's default to using, are bloated in both binary code and the data they store.
I mean, even if the DE is bloated, how much more space can the WM need than, say, Fluxbox - or, hell, even Enlightenment (DR16)?
Personally I use Ion3 and with all the settings and Lua extensions it's tiny... a WM don't need to eat 100's, not even 10's of megabytes...
In capitalist USA corporations control the government.
praising open source or non-profit projects isn't really trolling. if he were praising a corporation or a product of a corporation, then it would be considered trolling.
if its non-profit, he could only be praising it if he genuinely likes it, because there's no money in it otherwise
having said that, this is slashdot, and there are as many anti-trolling trolls as there are spelling and grammar trolls. some people just need to get out more