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Former Xerox PARC Researcher: Windows 8 Is a Cognitive Burden
New submitter LiroXIV writes "You know you've messed up big time when someone related to the development of one of the first graphical interfaces for computers thinks you've messed up. Usability expert Raluca Budiu has shared the common conclusion for many about Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8; it's definitely not as user-friendly as past versions. Quoting: 'The advantage of the overlaid menu is that it preserves context. Cognitively, there’s more of a burden when you have to switch context twice (desktop->start screen; start screen -> desktop). There are reasons to force users to switch contexts, especially in the tablet or phone environment, where screen real-estate is a lot more expensive and a menu is forced to use only part of the (already-small) screen. In that situation, a separate page makes better use of the small screen space. There are fewer reasons for a separate page on a desktop – the start menu is a cheaper interaction than the start page.'"
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
and then sue Microsoft for the tissue damage to my wrist.
Manual window management. It's 2012, if computers can drive cars, why do I still have to manually move windows around, resize them, alt-tab between overlapping windows, accidentally screw things up due to keyboard focus, etc. etc?
Yes, I know nerds hate change. But it's time for GUIs to move on, precisely because manual window management is counterproductive for almost every task. Maybe Metro isn't perfect, but you can't blame MS for trying.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
Then perhaps they'd quit their jihad on users.
Moving mobile and desktop devices closer together is a wonderful plan, but the mobiles should be coming towards larger computers, not the other way around. Microsoft can keep Windows 8.
Windows 8 is optimized for content consumption rather than content production and multitasking. Whereas content consumption can easily be done on other media (tablets and phones), production and multitasking are still best suited for PCs. Windows 8 appears to ignore that.
This is a very good insight, and probably the most concise explanation for why I don't like the Windows 8 UI. As a creator, I don't want all that extra crap getting in my way.
-d
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
Isnt it?
Try to use it long enough in your desktop and you will use it with your fist.
Power users are not going to forgo the mouse and keyboard for non-mobile use until brain-to-computer interfaces are created.
Tablets and other small devices are hot now? let's tailor our new OS to fit them, make every icon and control oversized, every window maximized, and throw customization out the window. Professionals and other people with PCs and large screens? screw them!
Poor guys are really just trying to keep up with the Mac.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I don't want fingerprints on my monitor.
You know you've messed up big time when someone related to the development of one of the first graphical interfaces for computers thinks you've messed up.
Nah, that hardly bothers me at all. I only really know I've messed up when the screams of terror start. And then suddenly stop.
Why waste a quarter of them with a stupid huge black bar running down the full length of the homescreen, making it look all lop-sided and amateur?
Are we supposed, like, dig this as the trendy new way forward?
There are fewer reasons for a separate page on a desktop
How about the OS being context-sensitive, and changing its behaviour as required on different hardware platforms? People would rapidly adapt to the inconsistency between hand-held and desktop devices - they already do it every day.
Microsoft, (along with the folks who created Gnome 3 and Unity), would be far better off adopting an inclusive strategy for their designs, rather than trying to shoehorn everyone's disparate needs into a 'one size fits all' GUI paradigm. And we'd all be better off if these head-up-their-own-asses devs would put aside their arrogance and deliver what people want and can use productively.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
The reason for the start page is to make the desktop look scary. Average users don't want to drop to the command line for any reason, the black box with cryptic commands looks scary and isn't intuitive to them. MS is introducing another layer on top of the desktop that really simplifies things. When an average user launches a traditional app, they will be dropped to the desktop, which will seem scary to them, the apps that run in that "mode" aren't as simple as they're used to, there's menus on top and tons of toolbar buttons instead of a dumbed down phone interface. This will force developers to adapt, because users will no longer want to run traditional desktop apps anymore, it'll seem too complicated.
Previously, users were forced to learn this stuff, but now that they know there's a simpler alternative, they won't want to, just like the command line. This benefits MS in that there will be a ton of new apps that work perfectly on their tablet. This gives an incentive to app developers; They will now have a reason to sell you the latest version. It benefits the Windows platform in general because the new users that are attracted won't be able to cope with a traditional desktop interface, and other OSes will look scary. More experienced users will know how to get around this stuff and run traditional apps, and won't be bothered too much.
Yeah, it seems really stupid to most of us, but we won't use it, but there are many business reasons for MS to force this start page and tablet interface onto users, it feeds into their new tablet strategy and throws developers a bone, and gives them a reason to focus on MS's tablet platform the way they do on iOS even without a large pre-existing userbase, simply because now average desktop users will be demanding apps in this format. So why shouldn't they do this?
Twinstiq, game news
...and people AREN'T not using the Start menu any more.
There must have been a bug in the Microsoft metrics tool that was reporting back to base. And the focus groups must have lied. And the people in the labs being watched through two-way mirrors must have deliberately not used the Start button any more.
The users have moved beyond the crusty old paradigms of last millenia. When I stopped to think about it, I couldn't remember the last time I used the Start menu. And yes, I'm a power user.
Have fun with the arm and wrist strain, retard.
They should call it Tiles, not Windows.
"You know you've messed up big time when someone related to the development of one of the first graphical interfaces for computers thinks you've messed up"
Regardless of whether MS has screwed the pooch with Windows 8, I don't think this claim is worth a shit. being related to the development of the first instance of something makes you a defacto authority on modern incarnations? especially in the technology sector this smells like BS. would the wright brothers be expected to provide valuable input on the latest stealth bomber?
-Lod
The desktop is our native environment. But the coming generation is exposed to computing via smartphone first. For them, the desktop-as-smartphone will be no big deal, it will feel natural.
So I actually agree with Microsoft on the Metro UI.
To me the complaints seem like a bunch of "get off my desktop lawn" old folk fist shaking. The complaints are not about usability, but familiarity.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Anecdote:
At a recent family gathering, my father (who really is pretty sharp) raved about how the iPad changed his life. He talked about loading docs into the cloud so he wouldn't have to carry briefcases of papers. (And he's no PHP, he was talking about Dropbox and similar.)
I remarked, that style of usage doesn't work for me because I am heavily involved in splitting and re-splicing files, saving them, and more. At which point Father confessed to having a second Mac computer. But by then I had almost won the discussion, if you want to do hard file processing, iPads start to get seriously in the way.
Using Metro aka Modern instead of the traditional desktop was never about usability. It was entirely about transitioning users to tablet interfaces and away from the traditional interface that people have used for years. Microsoft knows damn well that people will never voluntarily never make the change which is why they removed the ability to boot directly into the desktop.
By forcing you into "Modern" they are forcing you to use the new interface which /is/ usable - but only if your on a tablet. Obviously Microsoft thinks the future of computing is tablets and smartphones and not desktops. Witness the upcoming "Surface" computers and Windows Phone 8 platforms. Microsoft is afraid that the market is going to abandon the traditional desktop and is trying to position Windows as being an Operating System of choice for the tablets and smart phones. People simply don't think of Microsoft when they think of smart phones or tablets and that is what Microsoft is trying to change, public perception.
Windows 8 is a sacrificial operating system that is being produced entirely for this reason and we will see Windows 9 come in a very short time frame behind this.
Tell that to mac users with the magic pad.
Power users are not going to forgo the mouse and keyboard for non-mobile use until brain-to-computer interfaces are created.
Tell that to mac users with the magic pad.
Mac users already have the product to ego interface hardwired.
It is like Microsoft is purposely leaving a piece of their market share open for other operating systems, which decades ago were the first choice for video and audio production; I'm of course talking about Apple's OSX and BeOS ..
It's an exercise in frustation without a doubt. It takes about 8 times as long to do anything you'd normally do to get to the guts of anything. But if you want to do anything normal, it's about twice as fast. They got some stuff right, they got a lot of stuff wrong. I figure windows 9 will probably get it right. Much like Win7 fixed Vista.
Om, nomnomnom...
This is not about a functional Desktop OS.
That is not the mouse Microsoft is currently chasing.
Microsoft is chasing the mobile-platform space and a tied application store.
You might have captured the mood of the management meetings, but oh, this is at such a cost.
Power Users have really been MS's bread and butter in the Enterprise space.
This is SO risky. However MS is probably Too Big To Fail, so if they screw it up we'll hear about SP2 that gives back "abilities to go to the old way of doing things". At which point the entire exercise becomes useless.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
If we can put a man on the moon
REALLY?!
This is the 21st century, get used to it.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Anybody listening? No? Didn't think so...
Former Xerox PARC Researcher: This "mouse" thing is stupid, no one will ever use it.
Tired of my customary (Score:1)
It appears that you got your wish.
Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
When we start using our desktop screens like we do with our tablets and phones, with our fingers.
I would actually love to have a desk with an inset monitor, like so:
----/----
Which would keep it in easy touch reach, allowing me to touch when it made sense, and use the keyboard (and *maybe* mouse) when not.
On the other hand, I still wouldn't want it to be using the interface formerly known as Metro.
The two most valuable pieces of screen real estate (upper left and right corners, per Fitt's Law) are mandatorily taken by the Activities widget, which nobody supports, and the Cashew, which is the button you have to push to customize your toolbar.
Oh, and they stole the non-toolbar screen edges for 'window resize' in the latest release, even in maximized window mode (using the scrollbars now requires precision mousing instead of flick 'n click). The edges are the second most valuable bits of screen real estate (current the toolbar edge does nothing).
I think I've only ever read three UI design books ever, and a few blogs. I'm left to conclude that there are people out there who do understand, but they are actively hostile towards usability (in favor of eye-candy or whatever).
Oh, and hide my cursor when I start typing, for Pete's sake.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I actually use a mouse with the right hand and a magic trackpad on the left hand (with different gestures). Very efficient, at least for me.
If you've ever used Windows 8, you'd know that you can still do everything you've ever done on the desktop. The only change is the start menu and the full screen metro apps (which I am betting will be allowed to be scaled like normal windows in future updates. I'd still rather use 7, but to say you can't operate Windows 8 just like you can a Windows 7 machine is nonsense.
Hey, that's not necessary. If you have the screen flat on the desk, you can have neck strain instead!
First, 'he' is a she. Second, you'd better hit the gym before using a touch interface on your monitor for any non-trivial length of time. And make sure your gym practice has a lot of isometrics.
There's something different here.
Vista has a legendary story behind it that sorta no one knows. One day about 2003 in room 312 (storyteller's license) some senior engineer looked at the XP codebase and said "Oh ... dear.... Gawd...."
Then he went to a meeting in room 312. In that meeting he reported to the Top Brass that the XP code was fundamentally unusable ever again, and that MS had to start from scratch. THAT's why Vista was so terrible: They raced to get the underlying raw security side down, and basically sacrificed every user feature. They covered it up as best they could with Aero, and basically borrowed the time being Too Big To Fail to get Windows 7 out, which is almost sensible.
Vista was all Under-The-Hood mess. So if you could tie up your local friends and wait until Windows 7 it went away. (Or the few that purchased a late-Vista machine, upgrade them, it still went away.)
This is different, it's much more The Man trying to bully in to the exact generation that paid them the most, and who *knows the most about The Man bullying them*. So it's a HUGE gamble about the "naive new users" vs the Old Timers. Rough times ahead.
Me, myself, I'm DEAD SURE there will be a tweak-app that will fix it and then I'll shut up and stay out of it. But that's just me. Millions more of MS-Core users won't be so quiet.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
How do you steer?
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
I refuse to use even a smartphone without a keyboard.
Samsung Epic 4g.
I refuse to use even a tablet without a keyboard.
Asus Transformer Infinity.
That's exactly how I will describe the new UI behavior directions some programs are taking these days.
It seems that in order to save users from themselves, there are programs out there which will only "save" or "save as..." in their native formats and will force a user to use "export" in order to send a file out as an alternative format.
I see the logic behind it, but it is a cognitive burden to make this change when all other programs, past and present, are allowing you to "save as..." in any supported format. I find this new trend to be annoying and a cognitive burden.
Another example of cognitive burdenship is Lotus Notes. Refresh on every program and OS is F5. On Lotus Notes, F5 is "Lock Application." F9 is refresh on Notes. Why?! It is a cognitive burden not only within Notes, but within every program because I have to now consider whether or not I am in Notes before I press F5 or F9.
As a creator, I don't want all that extra crap getting in my way.
How is anything "in your way" at all? The elements unique to Windows 8 are only visible when invoked called by you, the user. When on the desktop, there is nothing metro in your way at all.
Your quote suggests that Windows 8 ignores that multitasking and content production is best suited for PCs, but neglects the fact that Windows 8 not only *has* a full featured desktop to use as much as you want, but also has several enhancements especially for multitasking on the desktop, including:
-better multi monitor support
-more informative and helpful file copy dialogs
-enhanced task manager
-the resurgence of the up-directory button
-finer granularity for preemptive multitasking
-and the ability to snap metro windows next to the desktop.
This last feature is especially great for large monitors and multi-monitor setups. I usually dock a calculator, music player, a reference like wikipedia, email, or a chat session in the 25% slot with the desktop in the 75% slot.
Look, we all know that this is the "Post-PC" world. Microsoft is simply adjusting to it.
PC users should find Win 8 actively killing their desire to use a PC at all. This is for your own good! In our new post PC world, all who continue to use PCs like they are PCs will only find heartache and disaster.
Why would Microsoft or anyone care what some old PC guy has to say. So Win 8 is not "user friendly". He means it's not *PC* user friendly, and by god it shouldn't be! The PC no longer matters. We are in the Post PC world, why can't everybody see this?
Frankly I can't see why Microsoft is releasing an operating system for the dead and buried PC platform anyway.
-Lod
Anecdote:
At a recent family gathering, my father (who really is pretty sharp) raved about how the iPad changed his life. He talked about loading docs into the cloud so he wouldn't have to carry briefcases of papers. (And he's no PHP, he was talking about Dropbox and similar.)
I remarked, that style of usage doesn't work for me because I am heavily involved in splitting and re-splicing files, saving them, and more. At which point Father confessed to having a second Mac computer. But by then I had almost won the discussion, if you want to do hard file processing, iPads start to get seriously in the way.
The right tool for the right job. For some reason when it comes to computers or electronics people seem to forget this.
The iPad gets in the way because it is not the right tool for content creation. As you know (and your father learned) you want an actual computer for that.
I actually use a mouse with the right hand and a magic trackpad on the left hand (with different gestures). Very efficient, at least for me.
I actually use a mouse with the left and magic fingers with my right hand (with different gestures). Very efficient, at least for me.
Oh wait, you're not talking about surfing porn, are you?
Ceci n'est pas un sig.
Microsoft could have kept the desktop and mobile UIs separate... and made Metro apps windowed (with common operations like "Close" remaining a button, ratehr than a gesture). The Metro app would live in it's own sandbox, and be just as effective (more so, actually) for desktop users used to operating multiple windows and jumping between apps.
Could have.
They chose to force it down people's throats, which is a big mistake. I think Windows 8 with a standard Desktop, and a Metro App-in-a-Window paradigm would have been a smash hit for Microsoft; a real reason for developers to jump on board and make mobile apps and put them in the Metro market place. Instead they decided to ignore 30 years of good UI research to put a tablet UI on the desktop. Morons.
It's a mobile device interface. Still, definitely a mistake.
Here's what I think happened: MS decided (along with half the industry) that tablets will gradually replace desktop computer and decided they had to invent a new GUI paradigm that made Windows tablet-friendly. Whereupon they made the same mistake they've made many times before — they forgot that many of their users still need the old paradigm. We're still using laptops and desktops; we're even plugging keyboards and mice into our tablets and using them as desktops.
I actually own a 10-year-old Windows tablet (running Windows 7) and except for handwriting and button support, Windows is not that different from that on regular systems. Pity they didn't consult the people who designed their existing tablet support. But they've probably all left the company by now, having been marginalized by the rest of the company for many years.
...who defended her thesis on background knowledge in sentence processing, and who, out of 10 published acedmic papers has only done one even remotely related to user interfaces? I guess there is a different meaning to expert in academia. And while she works (present tense) at PARC, she didn't have *anything* to do with PARC's original WIMP developments.
I guess none of this matters when you have a MS bashing article title to jazz the slashdotters, but this is one misrepresentation after another.
I think KDE is (was?) trying to hard to emulate Windows, which places the start menu at the bottom left and clock at bottom right. Windows isn't exactly maximizing usage of those prime screen locations either.
I think KDE works fantastically if you simply move the entire panel (or whatever its called that houses the K-menu, active windows list, toolbar, clock, etc) the top of the screen. Then the menu is in top left, clock is in top right (prime real estate!), and you can treat the active windows as if they were tabs on top. The activities widget sits beneath (I haven't used it much yet, but I get the feeling its not a bad idea in general to have a one-click button to open all the programs I need at once). My workflow is so much better, and my eyes appreciate not having to look down all the time to find things. I have wondered why this isn't the default, but maybe I'm weird, or maybe they're trying to keep up with Windows feel too much still.
Yep, but you can't buy a computer with Windows 7 installed once 8 is out, so they have to downgrade, and I think they'll stick with 8 instead of having to do that themselves or pay someone half of what their new computer cost in order to do that.
Win 8 won't be a failure if MS gets their app base and gets to promote their tablet. That's all Windows 8 exists for. It's pretty blatant.
Unfortunately this is where the money is. Ie, iPhones and iPads are big money makers and they are designed around consuming information and not the creation of things. They're passive devices in many way, portable entertainment, newspaper replacements, web browsers that move with you. That's nice in some sense. However what they are not are work stations. You do not do work on those devices.
Windows 8 seems to copy that model. Most of the default applications on the start screen are presentation based; they display things to you or let you search for things to look at. Shopping, Internet Explorer, Messaging, Camera, Maps, Reader, Weather, Video, People, Travel, Bing, Finance, Music, etc.
In some sense though that's ok. The majority of computer users are not creators and never will be. The big computer boom from the 90s was about people wanting to get on the web. The concern is that MS is converting a tool that was for both creators and consumers into a much more overtly consumer tool.
Look, I know you draw a MS paycheck, but give it up. It's not pinin', it's passed on! It's bleedin' demised!
Not a windows fan by a long shot but I'm one given theory vs practice. In theory many many things seem unreasonable but putting these things in practice you can determine if they are or not.
Theory would have you consider lower powered gaming systems would not sell as well as higher powered ones, that wasn't the outcome for the Nintendo Wii. Who knows, maybe [not-metro] might be a good paradigm for an application launcher?
Never a shortage of critics.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
The forced metro Start screen is in Server 2012, too. Game over, Microsoft.
Ah yes, sorry. Where are my manners? I forgot you're not allowed to have a dissenting opinion around here.
... watching every craggy old fart on the planet trot out one excuse after another to resist change. It's an OS ... it doesn't kick puppies or kitties, scare little children, cause curvature of the spine, or make weeds grow in your yard. If you don't like it, stick to Win 7 whose support doesn't end until 2020.
This is MS living 50% of their market share in machines, but 90% of it in money, open for a competitor to take.
But market take over on desktops is a slow process, and they may quite well put their act toghether before anybody has a chance to do that.
Rethinking email
It's like she said in the article. Using the start menu brings you back to Metro and takes you out of the context that you were working in. In the new context, the desktop that holds your work is now just one app among many. To get back to your working context, you have to push through all that new UI stuff. This is what I mean by "getting in my way"
-d
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
Slashdot has taken the Fox News approach to Windows 8. One sided, negative comments about the other guy. In the past month there have been at least two highly commented stories bashing Windows 8 each week. I visit hundreds of web sited and see the other side as well. Why can't that happen here a little. Some of this stuff is just plain wrong or "spinned" to sound bad. I have you tired it yourself? I didn't like it at first but it grows on you fast and then you sit down on a Windows 7 machine and if you say "man I wish I had Windows 8" then your dislike for it is now moot.
Seriously. Just stop.
Re: "someone related to the development of one of the first graphical interfaces for computers" .... gimme a break! It's not like Alan Kay made the comment. Other than simply working at PARC, how is this person related to the early days of GUIs? LinkedIn says she started college in 1990, therefore probably born around 1972-1973. It is QUITE a stretch.
The majority of computer users are not creators and never will be.
To the extent that's true -- and I'm not saying it isn't -- those users will end up on tablets.
Trying to turn the desktop PC into a giant tablet isn't going to work.
People use their iPads all the time to create "content." The iPad itself may not be ideally suited to some workflows, but with an external keyboard it is quite adequate for most people's needs - word processing, spreadsheets, creating drawings and presentations.
In fact on my wife's campus (she's an adjunct professor at PSU) there are tons of students using iPads for taking notes in class, recording lectures, writing papers, etc. It seems that they didn't get that memo you sent out.
I actually use a mouse with the right hand and a magic trackpad on the left hand (with different gestures). Very efficient, at least for me.
I actually use a mouse with the left and magic fingers with my right hand (with different gestures). Very efficient, at least for me.
Oh wait, you're not talking about surfing porn, are you?
I saw that one coming... ;-)
Who paid off this expert witness?
EOM
Seriously. No. I don't know if you would prefer to read a website where opinions and comments are carefully monitored to make sure they conform to a prescribed groupthink and echo-chamber mentality, but that's not something I desire. Comments accusing of shilling are completely without merit and are unwarranted, especially when I have a well established comment history and enough karma to burn for the next 6 months. You want me to shut up, refute my points, or better yet just ignore them and move on with your life. Otherwise your comment simply can be read as "lalala can't hear you"
The ribbon interface is an absolute waste of time compared to the old menus, well beyond the time it would normally take to get used to something new. It is not just a matter of training. It is just simply vastly inferior by requiring more clicks for most operation and using more screen real estate in the process.
I am unfortunately not surprised they took a similar route with the OS itself, which is too bad considering that the OS itself seems to have gotten worthwhile improvements in speed, boot time and memory usage over Win 7.
I've held out on updating Ubuntu for a long ass time because of Unity, but recently I bought new parts and instead of reinstalling what I had, I decided to try a fresh install of Ubuntu 12.04. I actually find Unity to be pretty good, and haven't switched away from it. I had the option to just move over my old OS but I chose to stick with this and it's working out fine so far. Maybe my only problem with it is that I can't move the launch/taskbar, but I'm trying to get used to it on the side as opposed to along the top/bottom because I have a widescreen monitor and I do admit that it wastes less space that way. My eyes just aren't used to looking at the side for certain cues out of habit.
The other thing that is becoming ridiculous is having a 32 gigapixel camera in your phone - and then displaying those beauties on a shitty 600x400 screen. Talk about the left hand not knowing about the right! The electronics industry as a whole have gone mad and need a big fat hard landing with reality.
short version is, "A tangled clusterfuck that can't get out of its own way."
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
"How is anything "in your way" at all? The elements unique to Windows 8 are only visible when invoked called by you, the user. When on the desktop, there is nothing metro in your way at all. "
Disingenuous.
The start menu is gone. Replaced by an ineffective Metro application called the Start Screen.
Same thing for search.
Same thing for many control panel items.
Well now we know why GNOME3 is borked.
He doesn't know how to use the three sea shells!
Microsoft has a really bad credibility issue with developers.
For decades they have been pushing new development environments on us. MFC, OLE, Active X, C#, .NET, Visual Basic, Access, Excel, Silverlight, etc.
Every time they tell us to invest our time in learning these new technologies, and they will give us a long-lived, stable platform for our applications.
Time and time again we are fooled! Time and time again Microsoft deprecates old technology and forces upgrades. We can't upgrade our applications when we want to, we have to do it on Microsoft's schedule. We want the new OS for its better hardware support, but we don't want to upgrade the application!
You may laugh at the old time operating systems like OpenVMS or Solaris or AIX, but if you've chosen these platforms for your application you know you are going to be able to upgrade your applications on your own schedule, and upgrade hardware when it's necessary, without disrupting your development schedule.
Lisp was one of the first computer languages and the Lisp fanatics believe that every language since was a wrong turn, so we all know we've messed up regardless of whether a Mars probe runs for 200 extra innings or Google serves a billion search responses per hour for a decade running.
The new Slashdot: A little bit of knowledge times a whopping cliche equals the bikeshed of Babylon.
There's no reason why an iPad couldn't be the right tool, however. There's nothing inherent in the form factor that would preclude it from being good at the task GP described, other than random restrictions on how software works on it.
I would say for many simple tasks the ipad is fine, but as soon as you start citing something in your report (for instance searching the web for an article, trying to copy the citation to the document), the ipad becomes very inefficient. Ipads can do one thing well enough, but try doing things in two apps at once and it gets woefully tedious. For basic writing the ipad is fine, but try doing any editing and it is just painful.
One of the reasons editing is painful is not just the lack of keyboard, but the fact you can't have two windows or apps side by side. Full screen apps have their place in things like video or image editing, but there are many activities where you need many different views of the object to work with it.
As a teacher I have seen reports made on an ipad and there is a noticeable difference - the complete lack of citations for instance, strange spellings that are uncorrrected. Many times the work is substandard because the tool itself is not made for serious writing, or makes it so difficult that the writer just leaves it as it is.
No citation given because I wrote this on my ipad.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Thats really the biggest question. Windows 8 is a good OS, but the metro ui seems to be for consumers rather than creators and will it get in the way of doing real work. It may be great for checking your email, your facebook, twitter and reading huffington post but does it cripple the people that really need their computer to be a tool, rather than another tv for corporations to pipe their bullshit to you.
You're completely missing the point here. I use my computer to DO THINGS, not to move windows around. A user interface is a means, not an end. If it makes me carry out a bunch of extra tasks in order to use it then it's just getting in my way.
There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
They also made the windows ui HUGE. the file explorer's ribbon ui takes up half the fucking screen!@$?!@%$!%
dont tell me they were thinking about power users when they did that horseshit
It was a line from Monty Python look it up, and please return your nerd license and badge to the chief.
He has used Windows 8, enough to have said how awful it is. What does Android have to do with it?
It has to do with the fact that Windows 8's Metro interface has often been described as slapping a mobile interface over a desktop OS (like the poster at the top of this thread).
(Which, by itself is stupid and non adapted. Take any other OS: iOS and OSX share the same kernel, but different UI. Linux on the desktop uses KDE or GNome (and similar) whereas on the mobile it uses Android's UI, webOS's Luna, Maemo, QTopia, etc. Now why does the mobile's Metro has to be forced on desktop users too ?)
Now I think the idea which the parent poster is talking about, is that *even as a mobile UI* metro still sucks.
One of the complain of TFA is that metro forces the user to switch to a separate menu screen and then to switch back to a running application, which breaks the flow more than having the menu as an overlay above the screen (as are the "Start"-menu, the Dock, Gnome3's application start screen, and they equivalent in almost any other desktop environment). TFA concedes that it might make sense for a portable device, to sacrifice flow because of limited screen estate.
But according to the parent, even for a mobile device, it is still moronic. Android 4.1 is his example of an user interface which manage to give a menu of application without interrupting the flow. (And in my experience, same for webOS too. Although the "application menu" overlay is butt-ugly and the "search anywhere" is much more useful).
Switching to a separate launcher and then switching back to active application is a broken flow that I haven't personnaly seen since the old days of PalmOS (and a few dumb-/feature-phone menus) (and that was a technical limitation, because the OS wasn't truly multi-tasking and the launcher was actually another separate application).
So in end result, Metro isn't only a bad interface for the desktop, it's even a bad interface for a mobile device.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
I don't have anything against Microsoft. In fact, I think that if the user is not an idiot - most of their recent products are fantastic. However, Windows 8 interface, to the extent to which I was introduced with Zune client for Windows is the most confusing, unintuitive thing I had ever had a misfortune of having to use.
But don't fear - we all know that by Microsoft's OS release pattern (...-98-Me-XP-Vista-7), every second OS has to suck in order to make the next one look better. Windows 8 is going to suck, because it's supposed to. Let it go and just wait for the next one, it will be great.
Bow before me, for I am root.
The majority of computer users are not creators and never will be.
This is generally true for home users (minus school-work as the major exception). However Windows 8 with its consumer-centered model completely ignores enterprise users. Windows 8 is absolutely not designed with the enterprise in mind from what I've seen so far.
- Who says I want to stick my arm out 300 times a day and put a greasy finger on the screen? I am lazy. At least, DEVELOP KINECT FOR NOTEBOOKS YOU DUMB FUCKS. That would be a smart move (I would sit back and do a hand gesture in the air, while eating my ice scream. Yummy!)
But really, we are lazy. If we wanted to waste a lot of energy moving screens, we would be clamoring for a Wii platform on which we would perform a little tap dance to open a folder. Great cardio! But I just do it in my other room.
- Why did Microsoft ignore *tons* of research on user interfaces? TONS. Hear, hear, a f*ing former Xerox f*ing PARC f*ing expert says it's F*ING DUMB (By the way: Ubuntu - you suck too - big, big time).
- The best interface for Windows was made by an expert: http://humanized.com/enso/ It uses modal touch. What? Yeah. Something to do with airline carriers and pilots not screwing the flight plan. I don't use the Start Menu, I don't go looking for clickitty thingys, I just hold tab and write: "open firefox" and - abracadabra - it opens.
Please, "specialized press", check Enso out (it's free - now - and I am not affiliated with them) this out before coming to stupid conclusions about Windows 8 and its Grease Screen and Big Squares grand ideas for interfaces.
Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
Apple realized UI paradigms are different and designed a different UI for iOS, knowing you can't stack OS X on a touch-primary device and have it work well.
Linux is another example:
instead of trying to cram a full desktop environment (KDE, Gnome, etc) onto a tablet or smartphone, all the companies which decided to use the Linux kernel for their smartphones/tablet/internet-enable-pocketdevice/featurephone/whatever took the Linux kernel (with either the regular GNU userland, or some embed userland like busybox) but developed/reused mobile specific interfaces: Android (with its own userspace), Maemo, webOS, etc.
In case of Apple, it is due to the way Steve Jobs used to work: he didn't think in term of business opportunity, but in term of product desirability.
He didn't want a way to cram Apple products onto a new type of device.
He wanted a device which simply did what *he* needed for his day-to-day usage, as simple as possible.
He focus on his own usage pattern, and neglects everything else. That avoid feature creep, "bullet point" approches, etc.
End result: A tablet which doesn't contain OS X, but is rather simple for the browsing needs of Steve Jobs, and by extension, of lots of consumer who don't really need that much.
Although Geeks, /.ers, and other "power users" will still complain that the device is completely under-powered and rather limited, the device is "good enough for Steve's day-to-day usage", which overlaps not too badly with the needs of a big part of the population. Beside their incredible marketing that's how Apple manage to sell "inferior" products like hot cakes.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
You know what else is a cognitive burden? Picking up a new magazine and reading the table of contents. Yes, Windows 8 is a cognitive burden, but it ain't quantum physics. It is different though.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
What's frightened MS is the realisation that consumers are beginning to realise they don't need Windows to consume content. Their requirements are often so simple they don't even need a PC. Just like MS had to play catchup with Internet support after dismissing it, MS again noticed the danger barely in time and are doing whatever it takes to buy into in the new market.
The only difference is: with the Internet they screwed competition by leveraging their desktop monopoly to destroy any commercial market for other browsers. This time they're more desperate and happy to screw their own customers to buy survival in a post PC world, leveraging the same desktop monopoly.
They've dumbed down Win8 Metro so much that users will find it no more challenging adapting to IOS or Android than Metro on tablets or phones. It's the world Google saw coming when they created Chrome. It's just a matter of time till Win8 is given away free, funded completely by their app store, they can't tax Android enough to make anything above zero look like a bargain. The blatant attempt to use the desktop monopoly won't work in a world that doesn't need the desktop.
...fingerprints. I want my monitor crystal clear, not smudged with today's lunch.
The ribbon probably wasn't implemented for power usres... probably quite the contrary since the whole concept of the ribbon is for novice users. But there are some consequences of the ribbon that make explorer easier to use IMO:
-The inclusion of the ribbon reverses the boneheaded decision in Windows 7 to just hide the menu bar until you press alt
-It brings forward long buried options like "show file extensions" and "show hidden items"
-The ribbon is minimized by default, so it's not exactly in the way
-Microsoft combined a couple toolbars into the ribbon, resulting in less vertical space taken up by headers/toolbars
-They added a quick access toolbar you can pin a couple functions to
-Alt now provides easy indications for shortcut keys to any function in the ribbon.
Otherwise your comment simply can be read as "lalala can't hear you"
(Shrug) The suggestion was for your benefit, not mine. You're the one who's white-knighting the autistic love child of Clippy and Bob.
As someone else with a high karma and lengthy background on Slashdot, I would personally not want to go on record defending Metro, or whatever they're calling it this week. I'd at least check "Post Anonymously," I think.
So you've got courage going for you, at least.
I don't really see this. You still have a desktop, and you can pretty much stay there your whole session. The only real difference is the somewhat annoying Metro start screen. If I was running Windows 8 at this moment, I don't really see how my current workflow would change much, outside of opening applications being a bit more jarring, but functionally the same.
As a fellow creator (and now I feel like a pompous ass), I see what your saying, but I think it is a bit over stated. I generally have 3 or four windows sitting on my desktop when I'm doing my workflow, even while I'm not using all of them at the moment. Windows 8 won't effect that, opening them will be a bit more annoying, but after that point it doesn't really matter if you're using 7 or 8.
I'm not sold on Windows 8, so don't take that bit of defense as fanboyism. I will stick it on my HTPC, which is pretty much only used for consumption, and is generally used by my non-technical friends. Metro is perfect for that. I'm also intrigued by the Surface tablets, I find Metro nicer than iOS or Android, at least on an aesthetic level, obviously I'm not sure how it is functionally compared to the big two. I do think an x86 Surface tablet might be the best thing since sliced bread, if MS pulls it off right (I doubt it, but you never know). As for my main PC, I'm not sure. So far I haven't seen any compelling features to make me want to upgrade. I am intrigued by Metro, it does seem to have some uses (convenient information, and live "icons" are a nice idea), but i don't like the fact that it takes a whole screen, and I don't like how tacked together it seems. Go full Metro (with full functionality), or go full on with the current Windows paradigm.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
I've been using the various release previews on a vm on my laptop, and just recently installed in on my desktop. And yet I still can't get why everyone is complaining. They took the start menu and changed it to fill the whole screen. OK. I understand that, no problem. Yet I collectively see from all across the internet: "OH DEAR LORD WHAT IS THIS UNHOLY ABOMINATION THAT STEALS MY SCREEN REAL ESTATE EVERY TIME I PRESS THE WINDOWS KEY? WHERE'S MY MENU???" Or worse yet: "It has a touch friendly interface? THIS INSTANTLY MEANS ITS USELESS WITH A MOUSE AND KEYBOARD." So hey, those are reasonable reactions. I applaud Microsoft for going out on a limb and merging the tablet and desktop OS. And I think think they've hit the mark to be honest. It's faster and prettier than 7, and I feel it's more user friendly. I really get the impression that those who are complaining the most either A) haven't spent time with it and are going off the complaints of others, or B) tried it out, looking for something to complain about.
I think I've trudged through enough insufferable comments blowing hot air, so if you've found mine insufferable in any way, welcome to the club.
I'm just sick of the herpring and the derping surrounding this software.
My blood hurts...
One of the things that continues to puzzle me about live tiles on the desktop: you can see them in the Metro desktop but apps run fullscreen and you can't see any tiles... if I'm at my PC I'm running apps not staring at the desktop so what's the point of live tiles?
It's another feature that works on a phone, a device that spends most of it's time waiting for user action on its home screen. Makes sense in a windowed desktop environment where you can leave widgets exposed - especially if you have a taskbar or notification area to put them in. But make no sense at all in the Metro "workflow is more efficient if every app runs fullscreen" environment!
Perhaps your responsibilities include teaching children who do not know how to operate their iPads. This doesn't change the fact that any of the things you mention can be done on the iPad. I find it to be pretty easy to do a four-finger swipe to switch back and forth, but maybe it's more difficult for some people than others.
Serious writing has been done on a myriad of tools, each of which is suited to different users. I notice many students using cheap netbooks with strange operating systems struggling to view a web page in Firefox alongside a document in OpenOffice all the time, for instance. It's strange that somebody would use such a substandard set of tools for real work - even stranger than using an iPad which has one of the better word processors available today.
Awhile back at my old job we started playing with windows 8 previews on various laptops. as expected using the keyboard and mouse, it sucked, but then we started playing around with it on an old touchscreen monitor, and it was actually good.
So we started experimenting with it using some students around campus. some students got the keyboard/mouse and some got the screen only. in those cases, the screen won hands down. In fact they seemed to pick it up almost instantly, where the mouse users tended to dart around the screen looking for apps.
The other interesting thing is that it seemed to be better the bigger the screen is. we put the same machine on one of our 6 foot smart boards on campus and did the same test that we used on the touchscreen. Students pretty much loved it across the board. a few even asked for win8 on all of the smartboards on campus. (which wasn't planned at the time)
Now of course none of this is scientific, and it was a small sample, (roughly 5-10 students per test) but the results are definitely trending towards touchscreen good mouse bad when it comes to Win8. Another thing that I wish we tested more was desktop interface on touchscreen. most of the people were told "this is windows 8 let us know what you think" and they could do whatever they wanted to it. They primarily stayed in the Metro interface almost exclusively. The other thing that might have skewed this result is that all of the students were about 20-25 ish years old, and almost all of them used some sort of smartphone, which might have helped win8 on the touchscreen side.
Regardless, its a hell of a gamble on MS's part. their biggest customers are enterprise hands down. Enterprise users will stay away like the plague. (unless they have a large POS or interactive rollout, it's pretty much a no brainer to put win8 there) Home users will most likely adopt it more with touchscreen hardware but the hardware is just not there desktop wise. with prices dropping on touchscreen systems daily, it might be coming soon, but I would say windows 9 will be out before it's mainstream enough to see enterprise adoption.
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
I want the Windows 7/Vista start menu. Not some art-deco tiled mess sprawled across the screen that requires that I install four monitors just to view it all. Your idiotic Metro (or whatever the hell you Microserfs call it now) start menu is a godawful mess. Here is what I have installed:
Adobe CS
Lightroom
Singer embroidery software
Canon photo suites (DPP, ZoomBrowser, Canon EOS utility, etc)
Topaz Labs plugins (Various ones)
Inkscape
Gimp
LibreOffice
Putty and Putty Commander
7zip
Mozilla Firefox
Mozilla Thunderbird
CCleaner
iTunes
Malwarebytes
UltraDefrag
Adobe Reader X
Quicktime
Handbrake
Brother P-Touch Editor
Canon Picture styles Editor
CDBurnerXP
Comodo Internet Security
Cyberlink Media Suite
Cyberlink Power2Go
Cyberlink PowerDirector
Cyberlink PoweDVD 9
Cyberlink PowerProducer
D-Link SmartConsole Utility
Filezilla
Google Chrome
Greenshot
Pidgin
PTPublisher
Safari
Google Earth
DVDFab
SureThink CD Labeler
Tera Term
VMLite Workstation
WinISO
WinSCP
Xenu Link Sleuth
XU4
Minecraft
On top of that I have a slew of utilities from Dell, Intel, Samsung, NVidia, Xerox, Ricoh, not to mention various builds of NVR and DVR software suites as well as visual studio, AND video codec and transcoding and video NLE utilities in addition to what is listed above. On Windows 8 my start menu would be a bloody mess. I wish I could run Linux + KDE full time but I can't, so failing that I really like Windows 7 (the first version of Windows I've actually liked since Win95) - ESPECIALLY the start menu and least crappy Window management of any Windows version to date, and now Microsoft wants us to leap backward to 1985's way of doing things?
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
The start screen is not the location for "All Programs" anymore; there is a separate screen for that called "All Apps". I have 90% of the apps you have installed, plus other desktop apps, and a bunch of metro apps and games as well. And yet my start screen is very clean and organized. I have my most used apps, about 30 or so, organized into groups for news, games, productivity, reference, and social applications; and to keep things organized, I only put apps on the start screen that I actually use. For instance, Adobe Reader isn't something there, nor is quicktime or 7-zip. If I need to run those I'll do so by opening a file. And no, even with 40+ apps on my start screen I don't need multiple monitors just to view them all.
If I need to open a program that's not on the start screen, I just press start and search for it, like I do in Windows 7, or I open the "all apps" list.
Anyway, if your start screen looks like a mess, it's your own fault for the same reasons it's your fault if your desktop looks like crap. You can let installers put 1000 icons all over your desktop, but if you don't customize it to your liking you have no reason to complain.
Finally, I don't see why you'd pass on Windows 8 just because you don't like the start screen. If it's really that detestable to you, just install a start menu replacement like vistart or a shell replacement like classic shell and use those.
You should have kept your eyes on the screen!
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Just put a mirror on a stand at 45 degrees - like they sometimes use for cookery demos, only smaller.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Not even sure what that garbage is supposed to mean.
That's what beta releases and prototyping are for. Jumping from concept to release is just retarded. Perhaps somebody thought it was more "agile" or something.
A dumb theory might. One that takes multiple factors into account wouldn't.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Plus ça change...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
WOW - not really getting the point of the "metro" interface!!! While it is possible to use the "metro" portion of the interface as though it was the old "start menu", switching contexts, it is intended to be the main interface, not a sub interface. It is much easier to just use the metro interface for all apps and interactions. I've been using Windows 8 now for a while and really don't find myself fighting the "metro" verses "old desktop" fight that is claimed. For people who need the desktop for legacy apps it is still there and functions better than ever. I also believe that as MS has stated before the vast majority of Windows users never really embraced the start menu - they just had icons on their desktop and launched apps that way. With the new Win8 interface it is very easy to use an app without having to "find" it hidden somewhere. Many times I don't even have to launch the app because the live tiles tell me what I need to know already.
Do Good, Annoy Evil!
I bet Microsoft starts selling downgrade licenses soon after the Windows 8 release like they did for Vista
And for power users who think the i-products are somewhat limited, there are alternatives. And this is how it should be.
My opinion is both yes and no. My problem is the "alternative". Power users are *forced* to look for them.
People shouldn't need to be geeks to use a phone, or a tablet. On the other hand, geeks shouldn't have to be protected from their own capabilities, unless they want to be.
I completely and fully understand that a device will be designed for the masses. (cf. the well known "iPod lame" summary on slashdot).
What I don't like is that Apple actively takes step to limit the functionality in their device.
I mean: okay, I understand why there aren't SD card slots in iPods/iPhones. Most random teenarger which just use their smartphone to update facebook statuses won't need them.
But I don't understand why I'm forbidden to upload my own software onto it.
Compare the situation with the webOS-powered Pre and Touch by Palm and HP:
also a simple device, also offers a walled garden with doctored application.
But if you're a power user, instead of hacking/exploiting to gain full access to your own device, you just need to type an officially-documented (although a little bit long) command into the device to switch into developer mode, and now you can upload unofficial software or even install an alternative App-managing software with 3rd party/homebrew feeds.
if the device get b0rked beyond recognition, there is the "webOS doctor" which will in worst case reformat and reflash the device back to factory state. (And then you can restore anything you stored on the cloud, so the data of most of the default webOS applications. You are responsible for backup up the data of the homebrew applications you installed)
So I understand why apple sells underpowered hardware (As you say, there are alternative for geeks wanting more omph).
Although I might complain its a little bit over priced.
What I really hate is that Apple won't let me do whatever I want with it if I decided to risk myself outside the walled garden.
That's why I voted with my wallet and my money didn't go to their pocket.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Can we finally get rid of the turds at Microsoft? First to go - Steve Ballmer! Great guy, can't run a company. Drill down, a lot of the parts of Microsoft feel obligated to trip up their own people and call it sport! Never worked for Microsoft so this is all second hand from people I know from there. It can be great again. Major changes need to be made though. Opening coming up with Apple about to do the same thing.
As a creator, I don't want all that extra crap getting in my way.
Perfectly reasonable position for a savvy user, but keep in mind new Windows users, the elderly, etc. often have a real problem with *the file system*. In my experience, people don't get that you have to have a filing system, make folders for things, etc. so you know where everything is. They save shit all over the place, including the desktop, and we wonder why people don't do backups.
For us, thinking "files files files" is easy. For many users it's just too hard, they don't get it. That's why a revolution of sorts in *managing content* is needed, very badly, for the lower end of PC users.
Ideally, that shouldn't get in the way of power users doing what power users do, but that's a tough ask. Windows 8 is a first step, and it will improve. This is mainly why I'm skipping Windows 8 entirely, as we are embarking on a re-thinking of UIs here, which is worth doing, but not yet mature enough.
How is anything "in your way" at all? The elements unique to Windows 8 are only visible when invoked called by you, the user. When on the desktop, there is nothing metro in your way at all.
So what are we suppose to do, not use anything? You know what Windows is without a Start Menu? A kiosk.
OSX version of 3ds Max coming out?
because unity has more free will than your average respectable citizen and now i'm in love with mint lisa , cinnamon flavoured, tasty goodnes, easy, smooth, everything a man could want ...
off topic? woops, sorry
Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?