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Ask Slashdot: Best Computer For a 7-Year Old?
First time accepted submitter Boldizar writes "My son turns seven next month and I'd like to buy him a cheap computer. I'm looking for the Slashdot hivemind opinion on what would be the best computer for a child. I'm looking for a computer that will teach him basic computer literacy, and hopefully one wherein the guts are a bit exposed so that he can learn how a computer works rather than just treating it like a magic object (i.e., iPad) – but that would still keep him interested and without leaving him behind in school. For the same reason, I prefer a real keyboard so he can learn to type. I don't know enough about computers to frame the question intelligently. Perhaps something in the $300 range that would be the computer equivalent of an old mechanical car engine? Another way to think about it: I'm looking for the computer equivalent of teaching my son how to survive in the forest should the zombie apocalypse ever come."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Raspberry Pi pretty much what you're looking for?
Small and light, with small keyboard, cheap and still quite capable. Pick one that comes with Windows 7 but that also supports Linux. That way if one OS doesn't work, you're not stuck.
Since you probably want your child to learn touch typing (using all fingers, always the same finger for the same key) you should get one with a smaller keyboard (netbook?) since touch typing is not possible if your hands are too small for a regular keyboard. (OTOH this could be problematic if he has to use full sized keyboards at school)
Firstly, I'd ask you WHY you'd want him to learn anything in particular, than - everything?
A computer is just ONE part of his life, if you want him to be "computer smart", you know...understand todays technology, just give into his curiosity, it's very dangerous to "force" a kid into anything, it's better to just let them stumble upon anything in their way, and support them there any way you can.
I'm sure it will come naturally. If he's a gamer, let him play with consoles.
If he's curious how these things are made, introduce him to a computer with a simple Programming IDE set up for him...like Python and SDL. (Just like we grew up with C64 and basic, you know...)
etc..
What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
Get him started off programming BASIC, and then inlining bits of machine code. He'll be a natural in no time.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
My two kids (ages 3 and 5) have access to 6 computers in our household which are running various operating systems (Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, OS X) and yet they use iPads the most. I actually had to buy the second iPad for them because they were fighting over the first one all the time.
Why do they love iPads? Apps. iPad has more apps for kids than any other platform I know of. And it's easy to use too.
Why not build it together, with your child. The experience of putting something together and making it work will far exceed any other expectations you may have.
Okay, a lot of people are going to get on here and talk about their favorite computer, or how to get your kid involved in programming and hacking, etc. But let's be honest: Most kids at that age play games with a computer. Until they're a teenager, there's no strong need for privacy, so I'd say just get something like a mac mini or an HTPC, set it up in the livingroom, and then give the kid a wireless keyboard and mouse and hook it up to the TV. Kids will spill juice, food, and generally destroy anything you give them.
A laptop or tablet is straight out unless they're waterproof and can survive being run over by a car. or worse. Get one of those fold-up keyboards... don't spend much money on it either way, it'll die. And you might want to buy a spare. (-_-) For kids "survivability" is far more important of an attribute than tech specs or even operating system.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Pick one: a PC or a circular slide rule...
Seriously, a 7-year-old has too much to learn about almost everything. He is better off with his own account on a shared PC (e.g. a family PC, where our kids started), where he can dabble and can sometimes look over an adult's shoulder. Give him his own PC, and he's likely to still want to use the same one as dad or mom.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
Seriously, you think an iPad is a "magic object" and a CPU chip isn't?
There's no such thing, and never has been. Unless you're talking a behemoth like a difference engine, or a toy like one of the Lego/Tinkertoy computers... how an electronic computer works isn't visible without at *least* some form of multimeter or oscilloscope... or for a computer of any complexity (read: any consumer computer past the mid/late 80's) a fairly sophisticated analyzer.
This is about as muddled and confusing a statement as I've ever read in an Ask Slashdot - which is an achievement worthy of note. You don't even know what you want to teach him, beyond conforming to some dogma ("no magic box") and ideals ("survive the zombie apocalypse") you've picked up along the line and now repeat as though they were sensible and logical observations of reality. You're the Slashdot version of a cargo cultist.
You can't possibly have kids. No sane parent would/should give a 7 year old as something as breakable and valuable as a multi-hundred dollar laptop
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
Is buy parts for a PC off of some website, get a case with a clear side. Build it with him, teach him the importance of discharging static etc. Let him put the pieces together, tell him what each piece does.
You should be able to get parts for a standard PC relatively inexpensively.
Load the operating system with him, and explain what it does.
This is essentially how I got my start, I was about 9 years old I believe, it was an awesome experience! My Dad bought the parts from a magazine, we waiting the grueling week for it to come in. He watched over my shoulder as I assembled it, making sure I didn't do anything wrong. My Dad is awesome for many reasons and this is one of them.
I applaud your effort to get your son involved at an early age, and with the right mindset!
I'd say a netbook would be perfect for him. Inexpensive, small keyboard, some are still powerful enough to run IDEs.
I had an Asus 1000HA for a couple years, the whole bottom opened up to upgrade components. However, I believe most current designs aren't as tinkerer friendly as older ones.
My blood hurts...
My neighbor's kids (ages 4,8,12) all have the same issue with their mom's Kindle Fire ... as well as their mom's iPod Touch. And all but the 4 year old have their own dedicated PCs. And they have a Wii and other gaming systems, as well ... but it's the Kindle Fire the older two argue about, and they've all been known to try to walk off with it when no one's looking.
(the one down side -- after various children have managed to buy new apps on it, passwords were set up on it ... yet, it seems that there's some key combination that a 4 year old can do when trying to unlock it on her own that will blank the device)
So there's no real reason to shell out $400 (cheapest iPad pricing), when you'll also have to consider the case (to shock proof it from tiny hands dropping it) any apps, etc.
Even with getting things into the $300 budget (the retina starts at $500), I still wouldn't do it, as it fails the other goal of not treating it as a magic box.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
This article should be inspirational:
http://changelog.complete.org/archives/7562-i-introduced-my-5-year-old-and-2-year-old-to-startx-and-xmonad-theyre-delighted
The thing is kids can get stuff pretty quick if you don't put the fear of knowledge in them.
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
Some "Jock" fathers do exactly the same thing, by insisting their kids participate in the same sports they did in their youth. If the kid actually shows genuine interest, then fine, go right ahead - but don't force your kid into some interest just because it was what you were into. As a parent, you have a chance to encourage your child to find out what he's interested in. And guess what, if it turns out he'd rather be outside playing with friends, in the kitchen cooking or building model airplanes, rather than futzing around with an old pile of comp-u-junk, you'd be a great parent to encourage him!
I'm old enough to have fond memories of building my own PCs in my teenage years, but I personally see nothing wrong with giving your kid a modern iOS or Android tablet and letting them just enjoy it without it having to be a learning experience. You only get to be a kid once.
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Get him a programmable robot. The act of learning how a computer "thinks" is the best takeaway from an early computer experience, and even involves some programming, even if not in a language he'd ever use again. Plus, you get the reward of seeing it actually do something. Otherwise, get him a WoW account and treat the PC as a gaming console for all he'll learn from a computer.
So many here have the nostalgia of their first PC. Mine required that I program just about anything I wanted to do with them. I'd buy the magazines with fold-out programs in them, and spend hours typing and saving it to an audio tape. Then load it up later and play. Choplifter was the only game that I had to play that wasn't programmed by me.
Playing with the computer should require learning about the computer. The closest I've seen are the programmmable assembly-required robot kits where you can build what you want, then program it how you want. For the home PC, they made it so easy now, it's like learning about microwave communications by heating coffee in a microwave oven.
Learn to love Alaska
At 7, get him a set of throw away clothes and tell him to go out side and explore and don't get angry when he comes home filthy.
Wash, rinse and repeat...
Plenty of time for computers later.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Or a better idea..
For $300 you buy a shitload of books, especially if you go to the used book store.
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... is the answer.
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Cheap, mass-produced products tend to be little sealed boxes that don't tell you much about guts. Once upon a time you could have a lot of fun fiddling with electronic logic, but now products are all based on little prepackaged ICs containing millions of circuits that are light years ahead of anything you can do by hand. So forget about a system that "exposes the guts".
I think the specific computer you want matters a lot less than the software you put on it. Nowadays, software represents the "guts" you want your kid to learn about. That suggests that maybe you should just get him a cheap Linux laptop, show him how to open a terminal window, give him a book on shell programming, and stand back. Kids are really good at making the most of that scenario.
OK, maybe shell programming is not something that will get the attention of a 7-year-old. There are a ton of child-specific programming platforms that might be the ticket. Your judgement as to which one would best suit your son is certainly better than anybody else's.
The Thomas Friedman column you link talks about an Estonian program for grade-schoolers that sounds kind of cool. But you seem to come away from it with the notion that you owe it to your kid to fill his head with technical skills so he'll be a competitive when he enters the job market. IMHO, that's a pretty good way to destroy a child's love of a topic. (I'm thinking of the unpleasant music lessons I had with my own father; my love of music will never be what it might have been.) You should focus instead on something Friedman says further down.
There is a quote attributed to the futurist Alvin Toffler that captures this new reality: In the future “illiteracy will not be defined by those who cannot read and write, but by those who cannot learn and relearn.” Any form of standing still is deadly.
That suggests that the imperative is not to learn a specific set of skills, but to learn to learn.
Get him a programmable Lego kit that will actually provide some feedback for him that a 7 yr-old would like. It's robot, he can control it, it has a language-like LISP (last time I checked) compiler that allows him to issue commands and construct sets of instructinons that will illicit specific behavior for which he's responsible.
And it's limitation is its strength. You're handing him a complex, task specific apparatus that's fun and offers little built in avenues for distraction. It requires some degree of focus, unlike a windows, internet connected game box.
The important step I found with my children was to recognise that they can control what a machine does, and indeed design a machine themselves. I think this is more fundamental than any specific technology.
Don't buy a computer yet. I'm sure you can find a used one, or let him access the one you already have. Get the free software Scratch, which is a programming language. You can make animals talk, make cars drive in to walls, or calculate sums, all by dragging shapes around.
Also try some web sites which offer two special things: big data, and communications. Think of a question and search the web to find the answer. Look at your neighbourhood in Google Maps. Send an email to your relatives and get a reply. (some privacy issues begin to arise with Internet communications)
For a bit of hardware fun, get a Velleman kit and solder the components together. And back that up with the creativity of making just anything new in Lego. That can lead to other projects, or assembling a computer from components.
I'm cautious, at that age, about robot kits that promise too much. They're either not customisable in which case you're not learning, or too flexible, in which case they're too hard for the age group. Which is why I'd start with software. But I'm also cautious about "educational software" which will only confirm the attitude that he is a consumer and can only answer A, B, C or D.
Get him a Raspberry Pi
This is the best answer so far by a mile. The Raspberry Pi has all the hackability of the 8-bit machines we grew up with, but runs a modern operating system with modern programming languages. And of course comes with plenty of games.
In addition to the usual accessories, I'd recommend getting a dedicated screen so that the RPi isn't competing with the telly for attention. Other useful things to have include a case (transparent of course), a powered USB hub (for WiFi and storing data to USB keys) and a spare SD card with the OS installed on it. If he's interested in electronics, look out for the recently released "Gertboard" interface - it's more electrically robust than connecting directly to the RPi. And books. Lots of books, on paper.
While it was the "family" computer, it was mostly loaded up with educational software for me. So effectively it was mine. And I could parrot a few bits of BASIC I was taught and adapt them slightly to amuse my friends. (mostly a string of PRINT, INPUT and IF GOTO operations). So I would construct simple choose-your-adventure type stories on it, where most wrong choices ended up in an untimely demise. (like "green guts", and the screen turns green)
When I got a little older (5 or 6) I was programming the thing often enough to crack up the manuals for TI Extended BASIC and start reading them. For sprites, joystick, DATA/READ, sound effects, among other things. While I wish I would have had a C64 instead of a TI99/4a, I am happy that I had a computer and dot-matrix printer growing up. (the printer came with a book on programming it, so I would sometimes send commands to it to draw little graphics or use alternate fonts)
7 years old is not necessarily too young. But I think a bigger component is if the child has a real interest in mucking around with computers. Likely the child doesn't even know what they like to do. I would categorize buying a youngster their own computer to buying them a guitar. They may take to it like a duck to water, but it also might sit on a shelf and end up at your garage sale 10 years from now.
I'll share some advice, despite not having any children of my own. I'd recommend that you be supportive of a child's interest, and provide them resources to explore multiple potential interests. And don't be surprised if the child's interest doesn't match your own. Even though you like computers, you might be raising a chemist or musician or athlete.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
They don't need their own computer yet. Probably at 12 years old, but no sooner. They need to learn the fundamentals of what they are doing before they abstract it away with a computer.
I myself was slapped in front of a computer at the age of 5. I'm now sitting here on a sunday night, posting on Slashdot rather than doing something useful. Do you want that to be your kids?
I am not sure if building a PC from parts is really an important part of the experience. I suggest getting any decent computer and installing Linux. Ubuntu or Mint would be good choices.
Why Linux? He can learn how to find new things, install them, and try them out. The package management system on Linux is so much better than the mess on Windows, and there is a ton of cool stuff that is free.
If you can, have him learn a good scripting language. I recommend Python, because even if he doesn't become a software developer he can use Python (for math, astronomy, statistics, web development, mass-converting his media collection to a new file format, etc.).
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
I'm not so sure I like the idea of a 7 year old opening a desktop machine with mains voltages available.
Unless it's a dedicated battery system (say a Raspberry Pi) I would not allow a 7 year old unfettered access to any hardware. Too dangerous.
If the goal is to teach a kid about basic electronics / logic or similar, the Lego Mindstorm sounds like a much better idea.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
No paranoid parent would/should give a 7 year old as something as breakable and valuable as a multi-hundred dollar laptop
FTFY. Seriously. Just explain to them that the device is fragile, and that NO fighting for it will be tolerated.
Kids, especially at age 4+, are by no means dumb or clumsy; if you tell them beforehand that they need to pay attention that it never drops on the floor, and show that you trust them, they'll pay attention and do their very best to deserve that trust -- to make daddy proud.
Sure, accidents can happen. But do you keep them in a sterile environment so they don't catch a cold?
(Fwiw, I've a tablet that got its first bumps and scratches due to a friend's 13-year old daughter. The fucking brat needed the entire dining room table room to do her homework, so she wiped everything on it to the floor: phone, tablet, laptop, you name it. At least three dozen 4-8 year olds and two cats had played with the tablet unsupervised prior to that event; it had no scratches.)
>> I'm looking for a computer that will teach him basic computer literacy
Computer can't do that. Only a human can.
For gods sake people, obeseity is a problem already. Get the children playing games and learning social skills. A fit, healthy individual who is socially savvy is likely to be more successful than one of the I.T. crowd. Sure get them interested in tech and science as well as sports.
If you want something techie or science based then get your child a telescope. It has the advantage of the Wow factor, being hands-on and getting the children outdoor. The plus side is that you'll get some exercise and be bond with your child as you discover the universe. Just don't by a cheap telescope from Walmart, etc... You can get a really cool Galileo scope at http://www.astrosphere.org/astrogear/shop/buy2give/galileoscope-2/ for about $50. But for 500-1200 you can get a really nice Dobsonian, just don't start too big.
For younger kids, it's not being dumb or clumsy that wears things down, it's aggressive wear and tear. A 6 year old with a laptop is going to use it *anywhere* (on the floor, on their top bunk, outside) and bring it *everywhere*, especially if it's one of their favorite things. I'm not necessarily arguing against an older nice laptop, but as a parent, you can generally assume your kid is going to wear down his or her electronics faster than an adult, who laptops are actually designed for.
LegendMUD
My creds: father of a 9 year old. She has a desktop XP machine and a laptop with Debian/LXDE
She is quite comfortable with both of them, and has no problem swapping out parts in the desktop machine.
Disclaimer: The only reason she has a Wintendo is for The Sims 2 Pets.
How do you get a kid to this level?
Try for a machine that is old enough to NOT have everything onboard.
The kiddo can help you install all the cards and memory, screw the case together "all by their self" and plug in/power on the machine. Then you can run them through a basic install of either Linux or XP, depending on if they want to play Wal-Mart videogames or not.
I took my old PC, wiped it clean and installed Windows XP on it. Avast anti virus. Ghosted the main drive to the second drive. Then unplugged the second drive.
Then turned him loose.
His desktop is littered with icons he made from testing the ideas of clicking and dragging. He somehow switched it to the High Contrast scheme. His browser has about a dozen toolbars. Which I think is interesting - it must be awfully easy to wind up with those. Don't hate your parents for installing them. It appears to happen almost by itself. On the plus side one of them plays Sonic the Hedgehog and he really likes that. A couple of old XP games, like Catz. He loves that.
He just clicks around and has fun. Supervised, of course. He's managed to do a fairly amazing number of things on his own. Watches youtube videos, has a few radio channels he found and likes, and so on.
If things get bad I'll restore the ghost image but for now he's having a blast.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I remember building a heathkit board that used huge chips to make a christmas tree light up.
Poke...Peek...
The parent has a point, start with a basic electronics kit and teach him about LOGIC...
Computers are simple if you learn from the ground up.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Don't buy him a computer!!
When you are 7 years old you need to be outside experiencing the world and playing physical games with your friends, not sitting inside at a computer terminal.
This is absurd. First of all, the things you describe doing with the C64 most people will never do in their whole lives. The kid's not a geek. The question was what the kid could use to learn about normal non-geek computer use.
Second, when you were a kid and used a C64, modems, and a BBS, those things were the latest technology. You were motivated to learn because a C64 was something that you liked using anyway and you found it interesting to learn more about the same machine that you used to play Maniac Mansion or Elite. To 99% of modern kids, learning about a C64 would be learning about something that has no connection to anything he'd want to use outside the lesson.
The answer to this question is *not* "the same thing I used as a kid".
And, for a machine of that age, the kid can also make the necessary blood sacrifice required every time you open up the case.
It's just an added bonus of learning not to stick your fingers into everything you open up. Most of us had to wait until we were older to get that lesson.
Sorry to reply to my own post (if Slashdot only had an "edit" button...)
One more thing to recommend an Apple ][ : NO INTERNET!!!
Seriously. Without the allure of the internet, he MIGHT just actually become interested in the COMPUTER part of the computer, instead of just zoning-out on the intarwebs.
You don't have any high voltage available outside the power supply, which is self-contained. Most power supplies are difficult to open while they're installed, and you usually unplug them to uninstall them. Computers are probably the safest electric appliances you could tinker with while they're plugged in.
The most you have to worry about is the 12V lines. I've worked on more open machines than I can remember and I've never had a shock (not counting static). There's a lot more danger of the kid frying components with static electricity than shocking himself with 120V (or whatever you use where you are).
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.