Slashdot Mirror
Following FEMA's Zombie Preparedness Plan Could Land You On Terrorist List
colinneagle writes "As if warning a zombie apocalypse is imminent, FEMA hosted a webinar for its Citizen Corps encouraging emergency planners 'to use the threat of zombies — the flesh-hungry, walking dead — to encourage citizens to prepare for disasters.' The problem is many of those recommendations would have you do things that would flag you as a possible terrorist according to The DOJ's controversial 'Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities' guidelines. From the article: 'Don't be silly by thinking you must actually break the law before cops deem you a potential threat and report you. Paying with cash comes under numerous "you might be a terrorist if" lists. Whatever you do, stocking up on non-perishable food as the feds advise should not include buying "meals ready to eat" since that, too, is potentially suspicious and means you might be a terrorist. "Suspicious activity" at military surplus stores includes making "bulk purchases" of "weatherproofed ammunition or match containers and meals ready to eat, as does suspicious purchasing of "night vision devices include night flashlights and gas masks."'"
So are terrorists. How convenient.
"I'd just like to emphasise that taking a million years isn't a metaphor here..." -Rich Bradshaw
Just rip off Foxworthy's act and replace redneck with terrorist.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
I buy all of my MREs at the Commissary on military bases. Nobody gives you a second look, just like nobody looks twice if you are wearing camouflage, carrying a gun and large rucksack, or running at 6 am on a Saturday.
sudo make me a sandwich
I have some MREs in my car and a few in my basement that get replaced periodically for emergencies.
I guess I am both a moron and a terrorist then. I can tell you I know nothing about food storage. I am not also stocking up for a siege. I live in an area with snow and I might get caught without food on accident.
*Actually* preparing for a zombie apocalypse should get you placed an some other lists as well.
A while back something mildly Kafkaesque happened to a friend of mine, who owned a light aircraft (a rather old tatty one).
He bought a few items from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty - some paints for fabric-covered light planes, and a few items of hardware, to perform some general maintenance and tidy-up. They duly arrive by courier, and he picked them up from his apartment complex's management office. A couple of days later the FBI turn up at his apartment to check whether he's a terrorist! Apparently, the apartment manager saw a box from Aircraft Spruce & Specialty, saw my friend pick it up (who's skin colour is not perfectly white, somewhere between white and hispanic) and called the FBI who came out and investigated him.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
By reading this article you're suspicious.
By reading this comment you're even more suspicious.
Want to admit something, terrorist?
What do I know, I'm just an idiot, right?
Back in the nineties there was a group that called themselves "Viper Team". They were firearms enthusiasts, and among the things they did were to make a video on how to blow up buildings. They had no explosives, they and no intent, but they used public and government buildings in their video as to what parts of the buildings were structural and how those areas support the building.
There was, of course, an infiltration investigation. The infiltrator apparently tried to incite the members into criminal acts, specifically, robbing a bank. By the end of the investigation, only one person spent time in prison, and that was because he had modified an AR-15 to full-auto. But, people who were friends with this man and others in the group probably had their phones tapped and all of the various groups around these people were nervous.
Oh, by the way, did I mention that the convicted man and the others were also heavily involved in Fandom, so basically all Fandom around here was somewhat investigated? That's basically why I know about it, because there are still a lot of bitter people in local Fandom because of this.
The media referred to the group as, "The Viper Militia". Having been acquainted with some of these people that's a bit of a stretch. Even using "Team" in their name was a stretch, they were about as organized as a clowder of cats, as most Fandom is.
So, in my opinion, it's all a big friggin' joke.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
So that has been my problem all along. I always have used my day flashlights at night, now I know what I was doing wrong.
There have been numerous reports of the Homeland inSecurity demanding customer lists from bulk supply stores/online merchants. Some stores say "no" but some other stores happily hand it over. Then the customers on the list get visits from the DHS officers requesting permission to search those homes.
My AC stalker: " I personally agree with your posts most of the time, but that won't keep me from modding you troll"
Whatever you do, stocking up on non-perishable food as the feds advise should not include buying "meals ready to eat" since that, too, is potentially suspicious and means you might be a terrorist.
You shop at Costco!
sysadmins and parents of newborns get the same amount of sleep.
Seriously? I can't think of a reason.
Terrorism is usually something done in a very short time window. I don't think the hijackers on 9/11 took a coffee break to cook up some ramen in the middle of the flight.
I think he meant you're a moron if you're buying them in bulk. Living off of them for a couple days to a couple weeks sure, but there are much better options out there for long term survival than MREs.
No? Then the system of checks and balances still works.
People who talk about the gestapo never know what this truly means.
The Gestapo doesn't ask if you are guilty. They decide, then torture you for information or just kill you. And if a second after they decided, they get proof from god that your innocent? No difference. THAT IS DICTATORSHIP.
Everything else is freedom with a legal system. And if you thought your legal system doesn't mean things can happen like being arrested on a mere suspicion and questioned for hours. Then you have just lived a very sheltered life. Any normal country with a legal system gives the police the duty and the powers to investigate, arrest and question to follow leads. Just hope you are never a subject of a investigation or will you will learn just what it means to live in a system with a working legal system.
Then again, since the line for emigration to places like Somalia where there is no police who can question you just for receiving a package, is non-existent, I get the feeling that either Somalia government is high efficient at processing immigration requests, or people prefer a country with a working legal system even if it sucks if you ever get caught in its gears.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Our church leaders have continually told us that we should have both a 72 hr kit and a year's food storage. Its not uncommon for a food storage order make its rounds at church every few months or for there to be classes taught during the week on canning and food storage meal prep. Tack on the fact that besides organizations like Walmart & the Red Cross, we have the largest food production & distribution network, all in house and mostly staffed by volunteers.
I guess all of that make us one of the largest terrorist networks in the world. And here you thought that our missionaries were just there to annoy you with offers of Mormon Videos & a copy of the Book of Mormon. Never underestimate the clean white shirt, pressed dark pants, tie and the infamous black & white name tag.
Even though it was a myth, the idea is great. Once everyone ends on this list, it becomes meaningless.
cpghost at Cordula's Web.
The difference between MRE and non-parishables is the idea that an MRE is something you will be eating in an expected warfare condition. (Where you don't have the opportunity to make a camp fire, and live in an area and move out quickly) vs. Canned foods, where you have supplies where you would have a camp fire to cook, and setup a place to either reuse the cans or have a place to leave your garbage.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Wouldn't it be easier to just add EVERYONE to the terror list? I was about to say "and drop off those who have been cleared", but I couldn't stop laughing long enough to add it.
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
I plan on buying a few cases myself. I live in PA. We get snowstorms. I now live in an area with very large trees, with some hills. It might take a few days with a chainsaw to get my driveway open again if two very large trees fell across. I roll my eyes at the current zombie fad. I want to be warm, comfy and well fed for a couple weeks even if three feet of snow is dumped on me, like the Blizzard of 1996.
If that lands me on some list, you know what. Good. At this point, those lists should be seen as a challenge and not a behavior inhibitor. If you're not on at least three watchlists, your life is not particularly interesting. Take up a couple hobbies.
No, you are just gullible. MREs are basically tinned food in a bag. The reason the military want them in a bag is because they are lighter and take up marginally less space. For civilians where lightness nor space are a consideration, buy tinned food, you will save a lot of money and not be scammed by inflated profit margins just because you bought your food in bags rather than tins. Note you will also get greater variety.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
TFA's 2 points about over/under - interest in radio controlled aircraft, I can see it now: "Good morning sir, I'm somewhat interested in radio controlled aircraft and would like to purchase one. Now, don't get me wrong, I do have a interest that sits above just a casual interest, however I'm also not overly interested in them, in fact, I'd say I'm about just the right amount of interested in radio controlled aircraft to buy one, but not so interested that it'd be suspicious.... say, who are you calling?"
> no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
You are messing up the delivery. It has to follow the format.
If you (insert joke here) , you might be a terrorist.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
MRE is convinent for a quick meal that takes up a small space if you have the ability to heat or cook it if required. For longer term survivability, they are not a good choice. I have a kit similar to this. You can still prepare for an emergency with standard off the shelf stuff from your grocery store without looking like a paranoid terrorist. Cans of meat like SPAM and DAK/hormel canned hams, canned and dried soups, tuna in oil, fruits, vegtables, all have shelf lives in the 2-4 year range. All of them are fully cooked and can be eaten by themselves straight out of the cold can or can be mixed in various quanities and heated for a "supper". Dry boxs and bags of things like Mac and Cheese, powered milk, flour, pasta, rice have a 1-3 year shelf life and can last longer if needed. Keep some of this stuff on hand and rotate through the stuff as you use them and you will have a good start without looking suspicious.
Space and weight are always relevant, even if you are a civilian. This is why civilian canneries have started using the MRE approach with civilian food products.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Once everyone ends on this list, it becomes meaningless.
That sounds like a good idea, but there's always selective enforcement.
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
They're also very calorie dense; each MRE is about 2,000 calories. They're made for rangers toting 80# rucks 12 hours a day, not wannabes sitting in the living room.
MREs are OK for a few days, but after that they will mess with your internal plumbing too they are so loaded with preservatives.
You're much better off buying the semi-instant rice, noodles, and potatos at the grocery store, and paying attention to the nutrition information.
What should the DOJ do to prevent possible future terror attacks? Should they just be accepted as a cost of freedom? Rejected as a highly improbably occurrence? If not, what sort of indicators should they look for before investigating further?
'Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities' guidelines? PITA guidelines? Well done!
I think they mean infrared flashlights that will show up on IR goggles but not to the unaided eye.
"... the LAPD adopted 15 of the DOJ's ridiculous lists regarding 'Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities.' "
Yeah, because nothing ever goes wrong in L.A. that citizens would need to be prepared for.
Except for riots. And earthquakes. And the whole place burning down every year. But other than that, it's just like you see on TV.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
If that lands me on some list, you know what. Good. At this point, those lists should be seen as a challenge and not a behavior inhibitor. If you're not on at least three watchlists, your life is not particularly interesting. Take up a couple hobbies.
I like this... And if I get stuck on the never to be fixed no-fly list, so be it. Air travel has gotten so bad I drove from Houston to Orlando for vacation... Pay cash everywhere! Get "Cash Customer" on all the watch lists!
Dammit, now I want an "achievements" section on the DHS web site so I can see what I can go for next.
If you (don't get it), you might be a terrorist!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
Here's your sign.
Most canned goods have a 3 year shelf live based and that time is based on a consistent taste and advertised nutritional valve. An MRE loses taste and nutitional value in the same manner and is also degrades with large temperature changes just as a canned good does.
This is an example from Hormel regarding their "use by date" from their FAQ at http://www.hormelfoods.com/faqs.aspx#can1
What is the shelf life of a Hormel Foods product in an unopened can?
The processing techniques utilized by Hormel Foods makes the canned product safe for use indefinitely if the product seal remains intact, unbroken and securely attached to a can that has been well maintained. It is suggested that all canned products be stored in a cool and dry environment to keep the flavor adequately preserved. For maximum flavor it is recommended that the product be used within three years of the manufacturing date. After that period of time, the product is still safe to use however, the flavor gradually declines.
Yes, because a pantry, garage, or storm shelter are finite, and neither is a soldier's backpack, the storage issues are the same and the tiny improvement in density that is worth it for a soldier is also obviously a good tradeoff for a civie stocking up said pantry, garage, or storm shelter.
The enemies of Democracy are
Proposal: Everybody go out and spend as much time as possible taking pictures of dams, power plants, government buildings, and anything else that makes the Spooks paranoid.
Also, let's agree to stop buying firearms, ammunition, fuels, adhesives, plumbing bits, et. al., with anything but cash.
Dress in cammies. All. The. Time. This is especially important to do when taking photographs of infrastructure as mentioned above.
Have a poker night with your buddies, or a member of a DnD club? Make your meetings (and communications regarding meetings) as cloak-and-dagger as possible, to give the impression that you're engaging in some sort of nefarious activity.
In essence, let's poison the holy living FUCK out of this well - give them so many false positives, they'll be forced to scrap the whole project.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
I have belonged to several zombie fansites and zombie survival oriented forums over the years, where the members regularly do the things mentioned in this article. There are even threads where members post and compare photos of their massive weapons collections, many of which have AR15s, pistol grip combat shotties and other goodies not allowable in my state.
No one has ever posted, at least to my knowledge, about being questioned, harassed or contacted by any official in the midst of their activities; and while that doesn't mean they aren't silently placed on some watchlist, I think it's unlikely; especially given the number of natural disasters the North American continent has seen in recent years. It just makes sense to stock up on some supplies. Not every government agency is the TSA. It's a losing argument for the feds because the CDC and FEMA promote survival saavy; if a serious terrorist attack occurs again, or a hurricane/flood/wildfire/earthquake/tornado strikes, victims in that area will need some of those survival skills and gear, and they know it.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
This isn't about middle eastern "crash planes into buildings" terrorists, they're looking for Timothy McVeigh type terrorists and Michigan Militia types. Basically far right rednecks that are not always completely with it mentally and sometimes go a bit too far.
I read the internet for the articles.
There's a joke among the infantry: "MREs are three lies in one acronym", as they are not really "meals", they aren't really "ready-to-eat", nor are they strictly-speaking "edible".
If you have some free time and a *very* strong stomach, look around for some stories of the gastrointestinal distress living off MREs can cause.
The premise is to prepare for a zombie attack, correct?
"Suspicious activity" at military surplus stores includes making "bulk purchases" of "weatherproofed ammunition"
There are two constants when it comes to zombies:
"night vision devices"
Aside from the specific problem of thermal imaging not working too well on the walking dead (who are likely ambient temperature), passive night-vision technologies are generally intended to be able to see in the dark without being seen yourself. I don't recall many examples of zombies being that reliant on their visual senses (assuming they even still have eyes).
gas masks.
A zombie hoard's main weapons are tenacity and numbers, not mustard gas and sarin. Zombie plagues tend to spread by fluid exchange (e. g. biting) rather than airborne agents.
Homeland Security wants us to prepare for zombies. These items don't seem to prepare one for zombies very well.
I dunno. I think endothermic heaters are cool!
During my time in the military, we were told to make sure we drank at least a canteen of water with our MREs, or the acronym would no longer stand for Meals Ready to Eat.
They would be Meals that Refuse to Exit.
They questioned him as a witness to one crime, with wich he had nothing to do and was perfectly innocent. But during the questioning he ended up laying some crumbs with a few wrong words, which the investigator followed, and ended up in him being arrested for another crime (adultery, he was in the military).
It may not be adultery for you, but maybe something you didn't even know was a crime. Maybe you admitted to sightseeing along a highway in Nevada, and off-handedly mentioned how much you love camels too. Wait, did you ride a camel on a Nevada highway? Busted! A lawyer will tell you "Don't answer that" before you hit that point.
If you really want to save your self some money buy a bunch of canning supplies and learn how to can food your self. I can lots of stuff and this weekend I canned ~2 gallons of homemade pasta sauce, the previous weekend I canned up ~5 gallons of chile, and next weekend I am planning on making and canning a bunch of beef and Guinness stew. I will also can soups, other sauces, veggies, pickles, pickled peppers, jelly, etc. Typically they will keep for a over a year when stored in a cool dark place (basement closet) and it keeps my freezer space open. I end up splitting 1/4 of cow and 1/4 of a bison each year with my father as well as usually getting a deer so freezer space is a premium and before the next year's meat arrives I use the lower quality cuts (round steak and chuck roast) in stew and chile so that it won't get buried in the freezer. Also it is a great use of the fresh produce I grow in the garden so that it also doesn't go to waste. As an added benefit I have good food ready made (just reheat) that I can use when I don't feel like cooking fresh food. Over the course of the year my family will consume the food I canned so it's not like I have some retarded stockpile of food but if we lost power or had some disaster that lasted a few weeks we wouldn't have any problems. I also have a fair amount of tinned food that I bought at the store like some soups and baked beans (seriously why not stock up when it goes on sale if you actually eat it) as well as dried pasta that keeps just fine on the the pantry shelf. There are some foods that I buy in the grocery store that come in MRE packing but that is a brand of Indian food that is like $1.25 per package and one pack is a meal. They have various curries as well as rice dishes so if you have 2 people (or are really hungry) you make up a bag of rice and a bag of curry. One of the benefits I discovered about the Indian food in a bag is you can cook it while still in the bag so you don't even need potable water. This has come in handy when I last went up to the BWCA and brought some along instead of only relying on the traditional dehydrated, or packaged food the guide companies provide you with (even MREs would be a vast improvement over dehydrated powdered scrambled eggs).
Time to offend someone
The part that bothers me is that the FBI tries to entrap them, get them to commit a crime where they normally wouldn't have done it. And in the end, you know those wiretaps are still around. There is no way to order the FBI to close the case, clear the files, and let these people get back to their old lives.
The Ruby Ridge fiasco shows how badly the government can behave in this regard.
Sorry I don't watch SNL. I like comedies.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Although I agree with your (and the GP's) assessment that the fear for terrorism is extremely exaggerated, the statistics you give do not matter much for any person's fear of terrorism. The question is not what the likelihood is of some American dying of terrorism. The question is what my likelihood of dying from terrorism is.
Most people feel they can control lots of those other risks (or make them non-lethal) by caring for their health, eating well, thinking they are a superior driver, etc.
However, they feel they have no control over "death by terrorist" which increases the fear of it by an important factor.
It still not worth all the fuss, but it can explain some of the irrational fear about it.
"Son, in a sporting event, it's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get" - Homer J. Simpson