Advertisers Never Intended To Honor DNT

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Advertisers Never Intended To Honor DNT

Posted by timothy on Sunday September 23, 2012 @01:34AM from the creative-interpretation dept.

First time accepted submitter oldlurker writes "After much discussion where many hoped a voluntary Do Not Track standard was agreed with advertisers, it turns out the advertisers already had a very different interpretation than most of us on how to practice it: 'Two big associations, the Interactive Advertising Bureau and the Digital Advertising Alliance, represent 90% of advertisers. Downey says those big groups have devised their own interpretation of Do Not Track. When the servers controlled by those big companies encounter a DNT=1 header, says Downey, "They have said they will stop serving targeted ads but will still collect and store and monetize data."'"

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Missing the Point? by kraln · 2012-09-23 01:36 · Score: 5, Interesting

Isn't that missing the entire point? Or is the do-not-track specification one of those Orwellian-titled things whereby the net effect is exactly the opposite of the name?
1. Re:Missing the Point? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 01:42 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Isn't that missing the entire point?
  Maybe, but not collecting and monetising the data is missing the point of trying to make money, and we can't have that now can we?!
  They don't seem too different to the music industry: they can't quite grasp that pissing people off may be a bad way to try making money out of them, and if you try to avoid their countermeasures you're obviously someone who wants something for nothing and a terrible person.
2. Re:Missing the Point? by Enter+the+Shoggoth · 2012-09-23 01:43 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Isn't that missing the entire point? Or is the do-not-track specification one of those Orwellian-titled things whereby the net effect is exactly the opposite of the name?
  No it's just that advertisers are a bunch of assholes who think that free speech = unfettered right to harass everyone even when they're sleeping, eating, screwing, working or taking a dump.
  It's about time people woke up and realised that there should be limits to what _both_ companies and governments aught to be able to do.
  
  --
  Andy Warhol got it right / Everybody gets the limelight
  Andy Warhol got it wrong / Fifteen minutes is too long.
3. Re:Missing the Point? by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 02:14 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  In any other civilised nation, the government. But of course in America, that'll never happen
4. Re:Missing the Point? by Richard_at_work · 2012-09-23 02:27 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Why should they honour it? It's the browser which is voluntarily giving out identifiable data! Sort your browser out if you don't want to be tracked.
  DNT is the same as saying passwords aren't required, because there's a "do not impersonate me" standard.
5. Re:Missing the Point? by Nursie · 2012-09-23 02:29 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  I don't think I ever understood the point in the first place.
  A polite request to please not track you, made to an industry that exists solely to make money out of tracking people?
  Yeah, that was going to work...
6. Re:Missing the Point? by SomeKDEUser · 2012-09-23 03:00 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  So you see no difference between an elected administration and a private entity with no democratic oversight?
  At the end of the day, the reason why companies are let doing perfectly dickish things in the US is people believe that the government would be worse. And so vote for people who promise they'll let companies be dicks.
  The stupid, it hurts.
7. Re:Missing the Point? by Richard_at_work · 2012-09-23 03:24 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  "Social compact" - what pretentious bollocks.
  Your browser is leaking your info - fix that. Trying to stop people taking advantage is so utterly the wrong approach here, its the same as any security related issue - make your end as secure as you possibly can, because the world is a big wide open and very bad place. You cannot control the other end, but you can control what you are leaking.
  Also, pathetic hacks like DNT do not work even when backed with legal status - the internet is not one jurisdiction, but your browser certainly is... fix your data leakage at the source, not at the receiving end.
8. Re:Missing the Point? by fast+turtle · 2012-09-23 03:43 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  And the first thing that the Mozilla Devs need to do is delete the Unique ID for Safe Browsing from the firefox code base as it's a cookie that can't be deleted. For those using Firefox and it's derivitives, change the Safe Browsing ID to "0" and help Poisson Googles Data. What really bothers me about this issue is that even when "In Private" browsing is enabled, this unique ID is being passed to Google, in direct violation of my intentions when entering "In Private" mode. This is just one more reason I rarely use Firefox. Opera has a similar feature and I suspect it does the same. Sorry but Safe Browsing needs to be completely anonymous instead of tracking us like it does now.
  
  --
  Mod me up/Mod me down: I wont frown as I've no crown
9. Re:Missing the Point? by Richard_at_work · 2012-09-23 03:57 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Stop accepting cookies from anyone except the first origin website for a start - advertisers use their own cookies to track you across sites, using site specific cookies makes tracking you across sites extremely hard. Session cookies aren't an issue - if you are using my website, you don't have any leg to stand on when asking me to not track your usage of my website.
  Remove a lot of information from the user agent string. Take it back to browser name, major number, minor number.
  Stop allowing plug ins etc to add user agent detail or request header lines.
  Treat third party images the same way as cookies.
  Rigidly enforce plugin security, so things like Flash cannot maintain cookies etc outside of the browsers control.
  Etc etc etc.
  There are plenty of things that the browsers need to fess up and fix before DNT can be considered to not be a joke - *asking* third parties not to do "X" when you are leaking that data voluntarily to them each time you request an object is just stupid.
  If this was anything else, the onus would be on the one leaking the information - if your medical records were being leaked through system insecurity then the one being decried here on Slashdot would be the source of the leak, not the recipient! Why is this any different?
10. Re:Missing the Point? by vux984 · 2012-09-23 08:25 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Your browser is leaking your info - fix that.
  Good idea.
  Trying to stop people taking advantage is so utterly the wrong approach here, its the same as any security related issue - make your end as secure as you possibly can, because the world is a big wide open and very bad place. You cannot control the other end, but you can control what you are leaking.
  Of course you can, and should pass laws and attempt to control the other end as best you can. What planet do you come from?
  Because down here, we take a two pronged approach to problems like this... to deal with home invasions we invented walls and doors and locks and keys and motion sensors and alarms, and so on. You want to be secure in your home, secure it.
  But we didn't stop there, we also made home invasions illegal, tresspassing, break and enter, and so on.
  Why do you advocate only doing half when it comes to the internet?
  pathetic hacks like DNT do not work even when backed with legal status - the internet is not one jurisdiction,
  So, many of the big advertising firms are based out of this country, or have a physical presence in the country, and many more operate out of countries we have treaties with. Sure that doesn't reach absolutely everyone out there, but the reach is pretty decent. Any particular reason we shouldn't bother at all?
So in other words... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 01:39 · Score: 3, Informative

...they will still track.
This is where someone will say... by someone1234 · 2012-09-23 01:39 · Score: 5, Informative

What ads? I use noscript and adblock.

--
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
1. Re:This is where someone will say... by JayRott · 2012-09-23 02:24 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Of course, by doing this you get folks screaming "You are STEALING content! How do the content creators get paid?!?" I have no problem with websites making a buck, and I would even go back to viewing ads as long as they are not obnoxious or folowing me around the entire net. If they can't respect me enough to honor my choices I can't respect them enough to loan them my eyeballs. The internet was a huge push forward for information sharing, but I simply can't get behind every internet user having a dossier encompassing every site they visit or every purchase they make used for god-knows-what by god-knows-who!
2. Re:This is where someone will say... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 02:29 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Don't forget Ghostery.
  Indeed, don't forget to avoid it. it is a product of the advertising industry itself, specifically Evidon.
  Don't you think they love the metrics it provides about the types of ads and beacons that people are choosing to block?
  Let's see what Ghostery's maker says:
  
  That technology includes Ghostery, Evidon’s browser tool that reports on data collection across 26 million websites and informs the company’s business control solutions.
3. Re:This is where someone will say... by betterunixthanunix · 2012-09-23 02:55 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I would even go back to viewing ads as long as they are not obnoxious
  As far as I am concerned, the only advertisements that are not obnoxious are the ones that I specifically ask for. When do I specifically ask for advertising? When I search for products on Amazon, when I go to Craigslist, when I use Google Shopping to compare prices, etc. It is no surprise that those things are so overwhelmingly successful (both in terms of money and in terms of utilization): there is no incentive for anyone to block them, because they are giving people something useful and something people want.
  
  The reason advertisers have such a bizarre interpretation of do-not-track is that they know they cannot make any money by respecting people. That's why I use ABP and NoScript: advertisers do not respect me, so I will not let them consume my screen space, CPU cycles or bandwidth.
  
  As for the poor websites that claim they will go under without advertisers...well, maybe they should stand up for their users and say, "No, obnoxious, disrespectful advertising is not allowed on this website." What happened to just showing me a picture that says, "This product is better than the rest!" and leaving it at that?
  
  --
  Palm trees and 8
4. Re:This is where someone will say... by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 03:51 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  You have to volunteer that data by activating their ghostrank option. There was a AMA on reddit where the devs have said that you can unpack the archive and examine the data yourselves if you don't trust them. Apparently all it sends back to them is what advertisers ghostery saw.
5. Re:This is where someone will say... by Tom · 2012-09-23 21:31 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "You are STEALING content! How do the content creators get paid?!?"
  Content creators do not have a right to have their business model work out. Besides, most ads pay per click, not per view these days (though both kinds still exist).
  There are many other business models. An online game of mine (BattleMaster) runs entirely on donations, for example. I'm very proud of having been able to run this game for 12 years now, and there has never been a single banner or pop-up ad on the site. Not in the game, not in the wiki, not in the forum.
  Does it allow me to quit my day job? Nope. Does it pay for its own bills (hosting, etc.)? Absolutely.
  There are Freemium models, there are subscription models like The Onion where you get a few free articles and then they ask you to subscribe. And, of course, there is the old "You want something? Pay up and you get it." system. You know, the one that mankind has been using for a few thousand years?
  The Internet has been and still is experimenting with various ways of making money. If yours doesn't work out, stop whining and start taking the possibility into consideration that your business model is flawed.
  
  --
  Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Wasn't the point... by toxickitty · 2012-09-23 01:42 · Score: 5, Informative

Wasn't the whole point of this to encourage advertisers to not track and if they do you have a leg to stand on in a court because you specifically made it clear you did not want to be tracked?
Please don't eat me by Chemisor · 2012-09-23 01:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Please don't eat me, brother Wolf!" cried the Rabbit. "Aw, all right." said the Wolf, rolling his eyes. "I'll just trade you to brother Fox for some hens. Is that ok with you?"
Semantics by TemperedAlchemist · 2012-09-23 01:43 · Score: 4, Informative

It's do not track not cover up track. I think these fellas need a course in remedial grammar.
There are times I do want, say, Google to keep my data, and I don't care if they share it -- like if I search for Minecraft stuffs, I want MC stuff to appear on my search. Or if I search a topic and I'd rather be swayed towards more reliable sources that I would frequent rather than like, "HOMEOPATHY MAGIC QUANTUM JUICE PANACEA MAKE MONEY FROM HOME."
For everthing else, there's Duck Duck Go
That's OK by Anonymous Coward · 2012-09-23 01:45 · Score: 4, Interesting

I have my browsers not respect their wishes on page composition and ad presentation, so I don't really expect them to respect my do-not-track header either. Their domains would first have to make it past my DNS blackhole anyway.
Where can I buy it... by sinij · 2012-09-23 01:46 · Score: 4, Funny

They keep showing me adds for 127.0.0.1, but I can't seem to find where to by this great product. Anyone has any idea?
1. Re:Where can I buy it... by JustOK · 2012-09-23 02:11 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Home Depot, check your local area.
  
  --
  rewriting history since 2109
why adblock exists by myNameIsNotImportant · 2012-09-23 01:53 · Score: 4, Insightful

and that is why i use and will continue to use adblock. the advertisers have given me no reason to trust them.
Color me astonished! by __aaltlg1547 · 2012-09-23 02:10 · Score: 3, Funny

Advertisers are ignoring what the user wants and using your data any way they see fit just because they can?
Know what else they're tracking and selling to other advertisers? Your do-not-track setting.
In other news... by epp_b · 2012-09-23 02:47 · Score: 3, Insightful

Water is wet, grass is green and space is big.

Honestly, you have to be quite naive and downright stupid to expect anything else.

If you provide your attacker (advertisers), who have a vested interest in ignoring the flag, with the means to ignore the flag, it's not going to work.

If Alice asks Charlie, a known snooper, to deliver a message to Bob and she expects Charlie not to take a peek, it's going to take more than writing "don't look, Charlie, tee hee hee!" at the top of the message.

This was dumb idea from the very beginning and destined to explode on the launch pad. Besides, browsers already have an in-built functionality to reject third-party cookies, which pretty much takes care of the problem. Yes, there are some clever and covert ways of doing it without cookies (hidden iframes, forms and whatnot), but there's no reason browsers can't reject those on a whitelist basis (some online software will use these hidden elements legitimately).
The explanation of DNT by betterunixthanunix · 2012-09-23 04:01 · Score: 3, Interesting
I think DNT is absurd too, but that is because I long ago accepted that advertisers are untrustworthy and not worthy of any respect. However, here is the theory of DNT:
1. Website operators are increasingly concerned about ABP, because they rely on advertising revenue to pay the bills
2. Browser vendors have added pop-up blocking support by default; ad blockers may be added by default as well if advertisers do not start respecting users
3. Advertisers claimed that if people asked not to be tracked, they won't be tracked; users find that asking every advertiser everywhere not to track them is exceedingly difficult.
4. Advertisers who fail to follow a DNT request would be black sheep, and a country could theoretically pass a law requiring DNT compliance (but how would people know if DNT was being ignored?)
In other words, DNT is predicated on the idea that advertisers will actually respect user wishes, because otherwise users will respond by blocking ads. The point of this article is that advertisers have shown that they do not respect user wishes; the logical conclusion should be that browsers start including things like ABP by default, until advertisers start respecting DNT again (but that won't happen, so we'll just make ad blocking a standard browser feature). Browser makers must include ad blocking or else DNT will truly be pointless; users, by and large, will not install ad blocking extensions on their own.
--
Palm trees and 8
More elaborate schemes? by betterunixthanunix · 2012-09-23 04:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

How about we just go back to pushing ad blocking software? The point of DNT was to show that ad blocking is not necessary, because advertisers will respect users if they can just get a little feedback. Now we see that that is untrue, so let's ditch DNT and get back to ABP etc.

The whole argument for DNT is that advertisers will be compelled to follow it, because if they do not do so then users will start blocking ads. Advertisers are not respecting DNT, so we have to deploy ad blockers now, or else DNT was truly pointless.

--
Palm trees and 8
1. Re:More elaborate schemes? by SScorpio · 2012-09-23 04:33 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I don't feel that ABP is enough anymore. I started using Ghostery and it blocks a lot of things that ABP lets through.
  Yes ABP is great for blocking ads, but Ghostery will block the tracking cookies ABP doesn't care about. A plus for Ghostery is it remove all of the +1, Facebook, and Twitter links from around the web that I could care less about.
2. Re:More elaborate schemes? by Emetophobe · 2012-09-23 05:43 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Yes ABP is great for blocking ads, but Ghostery will block the tracking cookies ABP doesn't care about.. A plus for Ghostery is it remove all of the +1, Facebook, and Twitter links from around the web that I could care less about.
  ABP can do that aswell if you subscribe to the Anti-Social filter. Scroll to the very bottom of this page: http://adblockplus.org/en/subscriptions. It's under Miscellaneous.
3. Re:More elaborate schemes? by Elwood+P+Dowd · 2012-09-23 05:49 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I think it would be more harmful to those people junking up the web if we made a browser extension that clicked on every +1, like, and follow button you surf past.
  
  --
  
  There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
4. Re:More elaborate schemes? by Platinumrat · 2012-09-23 09:41 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Is that a Soft Kitty, Warm Kitty, little ball of fur...
5. Re:More elaborate schemes? by Decker-Mage · 2012-09-23 20:27 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  And that's the point that should be hammered at them, that if a voluntary scheme isn't followed, we resort to tools that allow us to pollute their data. I already have the code to 'weaponize' this, should I go that route, and it wouldn't exactly take a whole lot of people (percentage-wise) to pollute the databases. Question is: when/if we organize?
  
  --
  "[I]t is a wise man who admits the limits of his knowledge or skill, and that pretending either causes harm." --Terry Go
If ignoring DNT is ok... by cbreak · 2012-09-23 06:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

...then I guess NoScript and AddBlock are fair game. Excellent. Advertisers should not forget that they depend on our attention, and we're not obligated to give it to them.
Re:No ads browsing is a fallacy by sjames · 2012-09-23 06:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

Well, a fair number of people tried to offer an olive branch in the form of allowing advertising but not tracking people like animals. The advertisers grabbed that olive branch and poked them in the eye with it, so here we are.
The next move will be either total blocking of ads or websites finding some way to enforce no tracking on the advertisers they work with.
The very few advertisers that actually have a modicum of respect for the people they advertise to would be wise to petition the FTC to regulate advertising firmly before people just totally shut them out.