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Ask Slashdot: The Search For the Ultimate Engineer's Pen
First time accepted submitter Laser Dan writes "I'm an engineer (robotics) who can't seem to find a pen that satisfies me. Most of my writing is just temporary "thinking notes" on random bits of paper, like diagrams, flowcharts, equations etc, but pens always seem to have one or more of the following issues:
1. They write too thickly — I write very small, and when I start adding extra details to diagrams it gets even smaller. A line width of about 0.2-0.4mm would be good.
2. The ink bleeds, making the lines thick and unclear.
3. The ink is slow to dry or the tip grows blobs of ink, causing smudges everywhere.
4. The first line drawn is not fully dark, as the ink takes a short distance to get going.
5. The lines drawn are faint unless you press hard (I don't).
I have been given several fancy pens (Parker etc) over the years but they all suffered from problems 1, 3 (blobs), 4 and 5. I'm considering trying a Fisher space pen, but it looks like even the fine cartridge writes rather thickly. Have any fellow Slashdotters found their ultimate pen?"
1. They write too thickly — I write very small, and when I start adding extra details to diagrams it gets even smaller. A line width of about 0.2-0.4mm would be good.
2. The ink bleeds, making the lines thick and unclear.
3. The ink is slow to dry or the tip grows blobs of ink, causing smudges everywhere.
4. The first line drawn is not fully dark, as the ink takes a short distance to get going.
5. The lines drawn are faint unless you press hard (I don't).
I have been given several fancy pens (Parker etc) over the years but they all suffered from problems 1, 3 (blobs), 4 and 5. I'm considering trying a Fisher space pen, but it looks like even the fine cartridge writes rather thickly. Have any fellow Slashdotters found their ultimate pen?"
It's called a pencil.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
Added benefit: clean revisions.
Anything less would be uncivilized.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
0.7mm pencil
http://officesupplygeek.com/pen-review/gel-pens/pilot-g-tec-c-4mm-review-and-a-sign-of-things-to-come/
If these are just temporary notes on just scraps of paper, why not just use a mechanical pencil? Line isn't thick, doesn't bleed, and can be seen pretty easily.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
My mechanical pencil of choice is the Pentel Graph Gear 1000. Well worth the money, the one I have now has lasted me over 3 years, which is not bad compared to other pencils/pens that would have clips snap off or otherwise get lost within a year.
My UID is prime... is yours?
Try these, thank me later: Pilot Hi-Tec-C Pens
Try Copic Multiliners, they come in very small nib sizes, and they've always performed well for me. They're designed for inking illustrations(ie, comic books) so they're fairly high-quality. Available at your local art store.
This should satisfy your needs: Inkless Metal Pen. I have one..... Somewhere in the mess of my desk. It works really well! I haven't had any long term results yet, seeing as I don't know exactly where it is, but I love(d) it!
http://www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Browse-Types-Features-Ink-Colours.html
This is not a signature.
I like the look of a gel pen better, but the space pen has too many advantages, for direction, temperature, durability, and good design (I have one of the 'bullet' ones that when capped is half size. You can run them through wash *and dry* cycles and they still work and don't ruin your clothes.
No joke - I've settled for those cheap papermates. They rarely clog, don't bleed, and don't give me any guff. The line thickness might be tricky but worth checking out.
My wife is an artist and is crazy particular about her tools. She also swears by them and was who got me into using them.
Pilot V5 RT. It's the 0.5 mm Pilot V5 Rollerball in a clickable package. Ink looks great, dries much more quickly than gel ink.
Try using a Kuru Toga 0.3mm or 0.5mm --- the lead rotates so it is always sharp. Uni-Ball just released them in the U.S. (or you can buy imports from Japan).
Pentel RSVP - fine, very smooth, and very fast. I've never used a pen that glides like these do - plus they're fairly cheap.
These pens are fantastic. They come in a variety of thicknesses (.25mm and up), are super smooth, don't bleed, and are relatively affordable. Highly recommended. Pilot Hi-Tec-C Pens
Fountain pen, custom cut tip, no-bleed ink. You can be a fine, as you want when you're making your own tip for a pen that way.
Om, nomnomnom...
Micron felt tip. I'm also an engineer and it's what I use to scribble.
if you can't find it in this or another search of the same site, i think you're out of luck: http://www.jetpens.com/search?q=pigment+ink
i don't know exactly what the difference is between a fiber-tip pen and a "pigment ink liner," but the latter go down to 0.05mm (that's not a typo, i really mean 1/20th of a millimeter). they are fiber pens, so they don't have a ball feed, which should be good news for your other requirements.
i stole a 0.1mm a few months ago and apparently destroyed the tip just by writing delicately (and i do have some experience with extremely fine pens), so you'll have plenty of use for that light touch of yours.
if you want something more artistic in your off-time, i've heard that experienced chinese calligraphers can control their brush pens to where they can write essentially with a single hair. might be a fun hobby.
"They were pure niggers." – Noam Chomsky
I've tried nearly every pen out there, including the technical pens for Koh-I-Noor. I've found that the pricier pens are usually just better looking, but few if any are more reliable than the cheapest Bic pens. I believe this is due to R&D and manufacturing capabilities.
That said, I prefer fine line pens as well. Since i find refillable pens too messy (ink blots, clogs, cleaning between refills, etc.) my favorite pens for the last several years have been the felt tip pens, the Sakura Microns 005 for fine lines, and 05 for a hearty thick line. They have archival ink and it's very dark, about as black as possible and dries instantly. All my engineering undergrad notes are on white archival paper and written in this ink, looks very nice and doesn't fade. The tip is something like a specialized felt tip but it never spreads, and I've yet to have one dry out before I lose it. Best of all they're relatively cheap at around $3 each and available at any art store.
I've searched for the perfect technical pen since I was a kid, and since I've found these I've used them consistently for several years now.
Zoloft and cognitive behavioral therapy? There have been a lot of advances in the treatment of obsessive compulsive disorder over the years.
A quick google search turns up this:
Sakura Pigma Micron 005 Marker Pen - 0.2 mm - Black
It's not a pencil, it's crazy thin, and (being a marker pen) should have none of the problems listed. The comments suggest that it's not good for people who write with "a heavy hand" which suggests that you won't need to press down very hard.
Required reading for internet skeptics
I have a Fisher space pen and it writes well enough, but it globs occasionally and is thicker than the average ballpoint.
I don't currently own a technical pen, but I agree with the guy who posted a link to some. Technical pens are where it's at for that sort of thing.
https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm -- Show your support for the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archiv
Not perfect, but they last and have ready supply of replacement ink, all the great colors... Just need pocket protector.
Fisher space pen.
http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Space-Bullet-Pen-Matte/dp/B000WGD13U/ref=sr_1_1?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1351737896&sr=1-1&keywords=tactical+pen
While I prefer the larger tipped version, I've used the micro before and it has a nice, clean small line. Great line of pens in either size.
Can't think of a better pen than the Pilot V5
I'll second that - the Palm Pilot V was great for taking notes. Once you learn Graffiti.
I bought one for fun thinking it was a gimmick. Nope it works. What it does is each time you lift the pencil off the page it rotates the lead a tiny bit to prevent a chisel tip. This keeps the line width from changing. Very nice.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Huh! I didn't know there were others who thought as I do about pens. I'm careful to hide how specific I am about pens, as I've assumed that I was one of about three people in the world who cared much. My favorite pen is the Zebra F-701. They don't accumulate much gunk, and leave a consistently thin line, though I'm not sure that it'll meet your exacting needs. (When the Zebra pen does accumulate gunk, I just clean it with a tissue.)
My favorite writing tool is a Staedtler 0.2mm drafting pencil, though I also use a 0.5mm pencil. For marking wood, I use a 0.7mm or 0.9mm pencil, for durability.
Instead of using random bits of paper, look for an engineering pad. I find them at staples. I'm not sure what they do differently with the paper, but it seems to be slightly more durable. I appreciate this as I've been known to erase work to make corrections. (The outfit I work for supplies pads, but I prefer to use my own, as the paper is better.)
Last thing: I bought a Fisher Space Pen 18 or so years ago and absolutely hated it. The durn thing seemed to be happy to write, but it also left ink blobs everywhere. Yech!
1) Find a goose.
2) Pluck a large quill feather.
3) If the point isn't fine enough, keep plucking
Note: the goose will probably be annoyed after your first choice. Annoyed gueese have a way of convincing you that your current quill selection is good enough.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
I have a similar taste in pens, and I've settled on the Pilot G-2 0.38mm.
The ink takes about 2-3 seconds to dry. That fits my quick drying criteria; yours may be different.
Other than that it fits the bill. You can get them at staples for maybe $7 for a six pack.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
I'd suggest the sharpie liquid pencil. Seems to address the short comings of pencils and doesn't smear or run like a pen.
http://m.sharpie.com/enUS/Pages/sharpie-liquid-pencil.aspx
I use a fountain pen. It was required to use one at school (I think it still is, as the supermarket still sells cheap ones and the stationary shops sell nice ones).
When I was about 16 I switched to a ballpoint as a minor rebellion against school, but I switched back when I realised that ball pens hurt my hand -- I don't need to press with a fountain pen.
Just after I graduated I moved more of my stuff out of my parents' house, and I found the pen I was given when I was 13. It still works fine, I use it most days at work. I don't like heavy pens, so that rules out most of the good-quality fountain pens sold in the UK, and I don't want something so expensive I need to worry about it, so last time I was in Germany I picked up a couple of good-ish-quality plastic fountain pens for €8 each (The brand is the un-Googlable "Online", which is a German company's idea of a pun). They come in about 80 different designs, most have cartoons, but there are a couple of plain-coloured barrels.
Doesn't work for the line thickness requested. Has all of the cited problems with finepoint raven nib. Runs dry quickly.
The reasons are quite simple: blood coagulates shortly after being exposed to air. This causes it to gel up and plug the vein on the quill/nib, resulting in irregular line width, globs on the sheet, dry tip, etc.
Blood is a horrible pigment for penning. You need at least a goose quill size nib just for flow properties, and will have to discourage clotting with something like alcohol. Even still, it doesn't really fix that great.
Not to mention the obvious: it being gross, unhygenic, and bad for the quill/nib and paper.
India ink is superior in every capacity.
If you are looking for a substitute for india ink in a stick pen, (india has several noteworthy problems, especially for teensy weensy text) try using some McCall's black food coloring. (Really just a mixture of FD&C Red #40, Blue #2, Yellow #5, and propylene glycol.) Other than spotting on contact with moisture, it has very good lettering properties. It dries on the page almost instantly, even with a heavy line pressure. Kinda pricey though.
Being halloween, it should be in stock at your grocier's.
And it isn't as nasty, gross, and weird as using blood. :D
I have handwritten with Staedtler technical pens for years. The 0.5 mm size is my preferred compromise since it gives a thin writing line, but is easier to maintain than their thinest-diameter pens are.
My use is for writing notes, really small, in the margin of a Bible. The ink from a technical pen never bleeds through the thin paper, and the writing still looks fresh after 40 years.
A technical pen also makes fine works of art (pen sketching), if you have the talent for that.
To make such a pen last longer between cleanings, store it tip upwards. Mine resides on my desk in a shot glass.
i've used squid before for sepia, - i think you'd probably enjoy that, too as long as you aren't squeamish!
9 years doing interviews in the field. Best pen for my work is a Pigma Micron 002 black. You can get them at Michaels and Joannes (craft stores) for about $3 each. If you order them online in bulk, you can get them down to around $1 each. Thinnest line, doesn't run, reliable. The only down side for me was that I wore the writing tip out in about 3 weeks per pen, but that's pages and pages of notes per day.
blood coagulates shortly after being exposed to air. You... will have to discourage clotting with something like alcohol.
How much alcohol does a victi... donor have to drink before their blood is suitable?
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
The Pilot V5 breaks after I take it on an airplane(*). The pressure change must break a seal or something, because from then on it will bleed around the edges and leave ink all over my fingers. In general it is a great pen that is easy to find in shops, but for being called a "Pilot" pen, it sure doesn't handle flying well.
Bic Clics are the most widespread pen in New Zealand. I used them almost exclusively at school and as a left-hander, can tell you they have terrible problems with
My current favorite is Pilot's gel pens, which are available with 0.3, 0.5 and 0.7mm tips. I find their gel pens to have the smoothness of roller-balls, without the slow ink drying and subsequent smudging that goes with them. I prefer the 0.5mm myself, the 0.3 seems a bit too sensitive to writing angle. There are many different models, I've seen at least 4 mentioned in other comments here, but I think the main difference is packaging. Currently I'm using a B2P 05, which is a retractable model made from recycled plastic bottles. I've tried other brands of gel pen, but have always come back to Pilot, due to either the ink disappearing too fast or problems writing on paper where my hand has been resting.
This here sir, is the pen you are looking for. Anything else is just common garbage.
google search for Pilot G-Tec-C4
It comes in both 0.2mm and 0.4mm, although I would recommend 0.4mm on thinner paper.
It is a steel tip gel rollerball pen, and the ink dries fairly quick and writes evenly unless the tip is dirty,
which is a little difficult to clean. It can a fair amount of pressure while writing as well.
It somewhat recently became available in America and is available in multiple colors as well,
although I have been using them for years by importing them from other countries.
Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
These are my favorite sketching / writing pens.
Read all about them here.
+1 to all those who cited the Zebra. Relatively cheap, no mess (and I'm a lefty), fine detail for my tiny writing. There's a gel variant - avoid that.
Buy them here
This is one of the nerdiest posts I've seen in a long long time.
As just a normal IT nerd and regular to slashdot, thank you for continuing to come here, it's good to see some really smart guys here.
I always like hearing good old 60's / 70's / 80's stories from people like you regarding big cool interesting projects / problems - not just same old IT stuff you can get anywhere.
This is why I keep coming here, unique people and history.
P.S - can't help with your pen problem, I'm just one of those normal nerds. Try a palm pilot!
The reasons are quite simple: blood coagulates shortly after being exposed to air. This causes it to gel up and plug the vein on the quill/nib, resulting in irregular line width, globs on the sheet, dry tip, etc.
What if you're a hemophiliac? Maybe their blood is better for use in pens.
Look at the material you are writing on. No matter how fine a point you go, or how rapid drying the ink is, it will always bleed.
Paper absorbs moisture - any moisture.
Those globs of dry ink can be caused by the fibres in the paper as the ball/cup scrape across the surface removing dust like particles.
Yes, "Better" is part of the name, and they truly are.
.5 mm tip but it writes much more fine than that. I once legibly signed my name (Grant S. Robertson) with one in about 1/4 of an inch. Not .25" HIGH... .25" long and only about 1/16" high. You can't do that with any gel pen or drafter's pen. It writes on just about any surface, including photographs and thermal receipt paper. It never globs up. It rarely needs to be "started" by scribbling on a piece of scratch paper. The line is even, without those spaces where you can see that the ball pushed the ink out of the way as with cheaper ball-point pens. They last a really, really long time. They don't look fancy so no one will steal them from you. And they are super inexpensive. You can get some here: http://www.amazon.com/Better-Ballpoint-Retractable-Ribbed-PIL30000/dp/B00006IEB8.
I have used this pen for decades now. (OK, not the same one.) It is listed as having a
I even got a bunch of refills so I won't ever have to worry about doing without them for at least ten years.
What kind of engineer needs to ask hundreds, or thousands, about what type of pen to get?
Yeesh... yeah. You're an engineer, not a teacher. Just take whatever they stock in the supply cabinet at work and be happy with it! And if it sucks, well, it's their loss in quality of your work output :P
But seriously, I would ask what Samuel Silva uses for :
http://www.odditycentral.com/pics/talented-lawyer-draws-stunning-photo-like-ball-point-pen-portraits.html
Personally, I would just find some cheap mass manufactured pen that was comfortable to hold and get good at controlling it. If one started having problems with globing or irregular coverage, I'd just pitch it. But I remember doing lots of ballpoint pen drawing/shading as a kid and rarely running into problems.
Uniball Signo or 207 RT, or anything with the UMR-1 0.38mm cartridge in it.
For a quick comparison, I can write as small as the date that appears on a penny with a Fisher Space Pen. http://i46.tinypic.com/34zzpyh.jpg However, you will have issues with its ink smearing like any other pen.
If you want a very fine-tip pen, you need to start looking into Japanese imports. In the US, you spend about $5 on a several pens. In Japan, you spend that much on one. As such, Japan has a thriving pen/pencil market--very high quality pens and pencils, the latest technology, great materials, and fairly cheap prices. I've seen pens in Japan with writing sizes as small as 0.18mm. As some people have mentioned above, JetPens is a great site to purchase them for cheap.
Ditto Parent, Rapidograph pens rock. They are pens that are used for drafting and drawing, and they come in a whole range of sizes. The disposable technical ink pens are cheaper, but I love the refillable ones. They pretty much are never going to wear out under normal use. If you get a refillable pen, be sure to buy the special ink intended to go in them. Regular india ink will make a huge mess if you try to use it in them.
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
As a seasoned engineer, I heartily endorse the pencil as a proper tool. However, I suggest that a 0.9mm line is a better choice for nearly all of your work. The key is that must write larger, write more confidently, and make your work legible at a distance.
I too once wrote with fine-tipped pens and pencils, finding joy in compressing my work onto individual lines of 5 lpi graph paper. I have learned, however, that writing large allows more scrutiny of one's work, and enhances the ability to communicate more effectively.
Get a pencil and start writing larger. For $4, the Pentel Twist-erase III, 0.9mm, is my weapon of choice.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
You assume that he has religious beliefs. All he said was that he takes really small notes in a bible. He didn't even personalize it to say his bible.
Now, given that he is writing notes, it's quite possible he isn't an unquestionning sheep. Why notes? Is he questionning the dogma? Is he a researcher? Perhaps he is an ignorant inconsiderate prick like yourself and likes to sneak into church and write dirty limericks alongside Psalm 23?
Your lack of logical thinking is a control mechanism far more daunting than religion.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Don't bother ; find a cheap one that is good enough, buy a box full (or a couple of bodies and a box of refills in several colours), then get on with your life.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"