Fisker Hybrids Get Bad Karma From Superstorm Sandy

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Fisker Hybrids Get Bad Karma From Superstorm Sandy

Posted by timothy on Thursday November 1, 2012 @07:18AM from the ok-ok-but-to-be-fair-it-was-raining dept.

New submitter slas6654 writes with this excerpt from Jalopnik: "Approximately 16 of the $100,000+ Fisker Karma extended-range luxury hybrids were parked in Port Newark, New Jersey last night when water from Hurricane Sandy's storm surge apparently breached the port and submerged the vehicles. As Jalopnik has exclusively learned, the cars then caught fire and burned to the ground.' Apparently Fiskar super-duty lithium ion batteries are neither water-proof or water soluble."

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Someone forgot to test by fredrated · 2012-11-01 07:21 · Score: 5, Funny

the 'submerged in water' use case?
1. Re:Someone forgot to test by HexaByte · 2012-11-01 07:31 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Well, I guess if you have a hybrid SUV, you better think twice before you use it to back your boat into the lake!
  
  --
  HexaByte - he's a square and a half!
2. Re:Someone forgot to test by pixelpusher220 · 2012-11-01 07:31 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  On the upside, switching to EV's will seriously reduce the frequency of flood damaged cars being sold as 'working perfectly'
  
  --
  People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
3. Re:Someone forgot to test by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2012-11-01 07:47 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  I always thought that Fiskar looked like the hottest EV there was...
  And I was RIGHT! :-)
  
  --
  "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
  Never been known to fail..."
4. Re:Someone forgot to test by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-01 07:51 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  "submerged in salt water" is a whole other beast. A nasty one.
5. Re:Someone forgot to test by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2012-11-01 07:52 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  "When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a Fisker in a swamp, but I built in all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest Fisker in all of England."
  
  --
  Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
6. Re:Someone forgot to test by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · 2012-11-01 08:11 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  If these batteries are partially exposed from below, they won't do too well in northern states in spring. Melting snow and ice combined with leftover salt used to try to melt winter snow and ice could easily splash up onto the batteries, and if it's been a heavy precipitation winter that could do a number on the batteries.
  http://www.dmv.org/how-to-guides/road-salt.php
7. Re:Someone forgot to test by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-01 08:23 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Only if you're not burning coal or oil to generate the electricity to charge that EV... Just sayin'.
8. Re:Someone forgot to test by Archangel+Michael · 2012-11-01 08:33 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Until we have reliable alternatives, coal and Oil will be used until they disappear completely.
  BTW
  Can't have Nuclear ... obvious reasons.
  Can't use Hydro Electric ... damn rivers
  Can't use windmills ... kills birds
  Can't use Solar Voltaic ... Rare Earth Mineral Mining not allowed
  Let me know when we have viable alternatives that won't be outsourced to China or other third world nation.
  
  --
  Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
9. Re:Someone forgot to test by pixelpusher220 · 2012-11-01 09:13 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Hydro works just fine, some mitigation needs to be done but otherwise they work.
  - the problem is that there simply aren't enough suitable locations to make it grid scale nationwide.
  
  Nuclear
  - No argument, but for the next 100 years or so it will be necessary.
  
  Windmills don't kill birds hardly at all. The newer models are geared to be much slower and still provide the same power. Bats however are still at risk due to the pressure changes at the edges.
  
  Solar - uh, who said we can't mine stuff? China just shut down it's production so US production can at least for a bit start back up (obviously not immediately)
  
  And of course, coal has it's own numerous problems, not the least of which is global warming. Nothing's perfect but we should try to find things that don't have the long term side effects that fossil fuels do.
  
  --
  People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
10. Re:Someone forgot to test by pixelpusher220 · 2012-11-01 09:14 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  He was correct in his usage. He was saying the 'damn rivers' meaning we can't build DAMS because of the DAMNED rivers; i.e. DAMS hurt the ecosystem of the DAMN rivers ;-)
  
  --
  People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
11. Re:Someone forgot to test by tlhIngan · 2012-11-01 09:42 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Until we have reliable alternatives, coal and Oil will be used until they disappear completely.
  Let me know when we have viable alternatives that won't be outsourced to China or other third world nation.
  We have natural gas (methane), of which we have so much we literally burn it off because we don't use it up fast enough. And China, etc. haven't developed their natural gas wells yet (we export natural gas to Asia).
  In fact, I'm guessing that once oil gets hard enough, we'll see a rise in natural gas vehicles as part of the mix. We can either burn it directly in an ICE, or use a fuel cell. Not as green since we still have CO2 emissions but it seems like a reasonable stopgap.
12. Re:Someone forgot to test by yurtinus · 2012-11-01 10:15 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Well just like everything else in life - there is no silver bullet. Everything has pros and cons. The best course of action is to diversify. Use an option with a smaller impact in the area you're trying to build it. Build out each as a piece of the pie to reduce the negative impact any one method will have.
  
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  +1 Disagree
13. Re:Someone forgot to test by yurtinus · 2012-11-01 10:16 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  One more addendum - if all you want is power, you can do it without making a massive reservoir behind a dam. By far dams are built for irrigation and flood control, hydroelectric power is a side effect.
  
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  +1 Disagree
14. Re:Someone forgot to test by compro01 · 2012-11-01 10:29 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  That's pure lithium. Li-ion batteries use Lithium cobalt oxide or similar salts, which don't react with water like that.
  This is likely just a case of the water shorting the battery, causing it to overheat, and ignite something flammable (e.g. upholstery).
  
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  upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
FiskEr, not FiskAr by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-01 07:22 · Score: 5, Informative

Come on, editors, get your act together already.
1. Re:FiskEr, not FiskAr by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-01 07:27 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Thanks. I was wondering how a pair of scissors caught on fire.
2. Re:FiskEr, not FiskAr by Anonymous Coward · 2012-11-01 07:47 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Thanks. I was wondering how a pair of scissors caught on fire.
  You can't run well with these.
Why does this matter? by h4rr4r · 2012-11-01 07:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

The cars were totalled the minute they were submerged. If they were destroyed later, why does that matter?
1. Re:Why does this matter? by h4rr4r · 2012-11-01 07:29 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  You can drive them if you want, I will not be.
  A flooded car is a totaled car. No cars on the market are built for that.
  I am not going to be buying a flooded car or any other R title.
2. Re:Why does this matter? by PPH · 2012-11-01 07:32 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Because they could have been parked in someone's garage and gotten flooded. And that would be the difference between some clean up work and a house burned to the ground (or water line).
  
  --
  Have gnu, will travel.
3. Re:Why does this matter? by h4rr4r · 2012-11-01 07:35 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Actually lots of houses burn down due to floods. A gas line ruptures or electric power issues light the house up and then the fire Dept can't make it there due to the water.
4. Re:Why does this matter? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · 2012-11-01 07:43 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I'd be less worried about the lithium-water reaction(Li-ion batteries tend to be sealed, if only so the internals don't degrade even faster than usual, they are touchy things) and more worried about a short circuit anywhere near a battery pack punchy enough to run a car. At 330 volts, you don't need an ultra-low resistance path to get some serious current flowing, and serious current is something that large battery packs are more than happy to supply.
  Now, once the electrical heating breaches the seals and touches off a merry metal fire, you have additional problems...
5. Re:Why does this matter? by mariasama16 · 2012-11-01 07:46 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Actually lots of houses burn down due to floods. A gas line ruptures or electric power issues light the house up and then the fire Dept can't make it there due to the water.
  Exactly. The houses in Breezy Point are a good example of this.
6. Re:Why does this matter? by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2012-11-01 07:46 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Hey, large swaths of New York City are without power. That means no heat either, and it's pretty cold - so a nice car fire might be welcomed!
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
7. Re:Why does this matter? by sumdumass · 2012-11-01 07:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  How about building burns down because water main break cased water to pour into the underground parking garage and onto an electric car that burst into flames?
  Or how about Man burns to death as firefighters point out there isn't much point putting water on a car which is on fire because it slid into a pond, became submerged and is burning.
  Or maybe, Two first responders were injured after a car erupted in fire because it started raining while they were tending to an accident.
  I know a parked car without anyone around doesn't pose much of a threat. But I think in reality, that situation happens as much as or less then when it could be a threat to human life or property. So finding out why is somewhat of a concern I would think.
8. Re:Why does this matter? by atheos · 2012-11-01 08:00 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  "How do you 'hide' the damage these cars have? ;-)" Easy, pop a kick panel and inspect any ground cables, and exposed metal above the floor level. These cars start rusting within days of exposure, and you can usually see a waterline once the carpet and/or kick panels have been exposed. I've had the not-so-pleasure of informing numerous people that their cars were submersed at some point in their history, and not a single person has responded with anything similar to "oh yea, I already know that".
9. Re:Why does this matter? by Tailhook · 2012-11-01 08:03 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  why does that matter?
  There is an important difference between "totalled" and "erupt into a 1350 deg. C toxic lithium fire." Traditional gas/diesel cars don't usually do that when flooded, so a new and dramatic failure mode has been revealed. Something to note if you live in New Orleans or parts of Texas that see frequent flash floods and perhaps not the best thing to park in your integral garage.
  You didn't really fail to understand this did you? You'd just rather people not discuss concerns that emerge with the things you prefer.
  
  --
  Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
10. Re:Why does this matter? by plover · 2012-11-01 09:55 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Apparently I wasn't clear. I meant how do you hide the damage sustained by the Karma's
  This is like any other car-totaling event. You can either sell the scorched bits to a scrap dealer, or perform a complete rebuild.
  The friend who got the salvage title on his bike was telling me another tale (FOAFOAF, I know) about a guy who bought a Ferrari that was completely destroyed in a garage fire. There was nothing left of the original car but some seriously fire-damaged frame parts. He paid some large amount ($2000 or so) for the remainders of the frame in order to get the serial number. He then incorporated those damaged bits into a complete rebuild of the car from parts. Because of the serial number and the original frame parts, he was able to sell it as a repaired genuine Ferrari instead of as a kit car, and he got a much higher price for it.
  The reason it was notable is that he was investigated by the police when he paid for the salvage title. According to FOAF, the primary buyers of salvage titles on totaled out high-end car frames are chop shops, as they can somehow swap out the serial numbers for those on stolen vehicles to make them appear legitimate. Apparently it's common enough that the insurance agent gave the police photographs of the twisted metal, who also didn't believe that he was actually planning to restore the car.
  So in 50 years, if and when (but mostly if) these become "classic" cars, there could be a market for a rebuilt '12. Owning the twisted remains of one of these would allow you to legitimately restore one. But that's assuming there's a future market for rebuilt Karmas, of course, and that's a really big assumption. I suspect all of these will end up going for scrap.
  
  --
  John
Lithium + Water = Fire by Ellis+D.+Tripp · 2012-11-01 07:29 · Score: 4, Informative

Pretty basic chemistry going on here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM

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Misleading? by Sez+Zero · 2012-11-01 07:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

It looks like several were close together, while others parked a little bit away were unscathed. Perhaps one caught fire and that burnt adjacent cars? They were parked pretty close, and there's a Karma in one of the photos that didn't suffer the same fate.
1. Re:Misleading? by 93+Escort+Wagon · 2012-11-01 08:49 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  And using a Thermite lining for the battery compartment was just nuts.
  
  --
  #DeleteChrome
Huge problem in Texas - flash floods on the road by Andy+Prough · 2012-11-01 07:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

We have flash floods every summer in Texas. Most cars that run into a few feet of water simply stall. If instead, your car explodes and kills all the occupants, then you've got a potential death trap.
Re:Why pick on EVs? by Darth+Hubris · 2012-11-01 07:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

Because most cars don't burst into flame when submerged.

--
The party's over ... the drink ... and the luck ... ran out
water...causes fire? by DSS11Q13 · 2012-11-01 07:31 · Score: 5, Funny

It's a witch!
1. Re:water...causes fire? by Flere+Imsaho · 2012-11-01 08:14 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  It's a witch!
  Karma's a witch? Nasty lisp you have there.
  
  --
  It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
Re:Why pick on EVs? by spire3661 · 2012-11-01 07:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

Let me explain it simply. On Earth, water falls from the sky, very frequently, sometimes with great force. Having a consumer level bomb that is activated by water is a bad idea whilst operating on Earth. It is a very volatile condition. These cars BURNED by being put in water and you dont think that is cause for alarm? Not one or two but over a DOZEN.

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Good-bye
Re:What if you drove into a flooded area? by h4rr4r · 2012-11-01 07:43 · Score: 5, Informative

DO NOT DRIVE in a foot of water.
A single foot of water moving sideways is more than enough to take your car off the road. If you cannot see the bottom do not drive through it.
Re:Come on by captaindomon · 2012-11-01 07:53 · Score: 3, Informative

The article has four pictures.

--
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
Re:Huge problem in Texas - flash floods on the roa by Andy+Prough · 2012-11-01 07:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

That's the point of "flash" flooding. It's unexpected. Perfectly good drivers turn a bend in the road on a rainy night and run straight into a gulley with 4 feet of water. We've got a lot of country roads with no lighting and poor visibility. Happens every summer around here - except deaths are extremely rare. But - if your car exploded before you could get out? Very bad.
Re:Superstorm? by Quince+alPillan · 2012-11-01 08:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

As someone who also lives in Florida, I can explain.
1. Very little preparation for the type of weather that a hurricane can cause. In Florida, we have storm drains that take away most of the water that a hurricane causes. Add in building codes that require buildings to be designed for hurricanes (typically category 3) and utilities that are designed specifically for hurricanes, and you'll find that down here, things are pretty robust by design. New Jersey and New York didn't have that type of preparation and you had buildings collapse.
2. Record storm surges. In some places, the storm surge was over 13 feet where the harbor was only designed to handle the (then historic record) 12 feet, causing massive flooding.
3. Fires. Gas lines caught fire, causing over 100 homes to burn to the ground.
4. In New Jersey specifically, they had a berm go under water due to the storm surges, causing even more damage.
Ultimately, take a look at the damage predictions and you'll see why its called a superstorm. Wind was only part of the issue.
Re:Seawater + battery = Not Good by AaronW · 2012-11-01 09:17 · Score: 4, Informative

The batteries used in the Tesla don't suffer from this problem. Each individual battery has independent internal circuitry to disconnect the battery if a short is detected or if the voltage goes too high or too low. Additionally, the battery carrier is designed to direct the gases safely away from the car in the event that runaway battery failure does occur to protect the vehicle and any occupants.

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