Gabe Newell Reveals More About Steam Boxes, New Input Devices

adeelarshad82 writes "Valve's presence at CES this year isn't to show off some new games, it's all about meeting with hardware manufacturers behind closed doors to talk about Steam Box. In an interview at CES which highlights Valve's plans for the console, Gabe Newell describes Steam Box as two projects. The first, codenamed Bigfoot, focuses on the hardware for use in the home with a TV. The second, codenamed Littlefoot, is investigating mobile gaming. Gabe goes on to discuss Valve plans on having three levels of Steam Box described as 'Good, Better, or Best' and expectations for the controller where the company wants something that's more high precision than anything else out there at the moment." The interview at the Verge is pretty extensive.

Comments

Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I'm all for innovation but I remain skeptical that any of this can really rival the advantage of the raw compute power and versatility of a traditional PC

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[telchine]

Well I'm all for innovation but I remain skeptical that any of this can really rival the advantage of the raw compute power and versatility of a traditional PC

Agreed... I read this from the article...

expectations for the controller where the company wants something that's more high precision than anything else out there at the moment

More high precision than a keyboard and mouse? Good luck with that!

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[nthitz]

Presumably that means higher precision than the current console controllers..

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

They may be referring to a controller that is more high precision than anything else out there at the moment within the specific subdomain of game controllers.

Many have tried, but I guess that if anyone can do it it's Valve.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[drsquare]

A keyboard has no precision at all, it's either 1 or 0.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

A keyboard has no precision at all, it's either 1 or 0.

Duhhh that's why the term used was "keyboard and mouse" herp derp.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

Considering a bit is the limit for how fine grained you can get on a computer, the keyboard is the most precise input device you could create.... it just has many other shortcomings. Imagine gaming in binary.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

It has temporal resolution.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Dancindan84]

At the risk of feeding the troll...

First off it won't be competing against PCs. It's going to be competing against consoles.

Secondly... why not? You realize that under the hood most consoles are just small form factor PCs right? Have a look at the hardware in an XBox 360 or a Playstation 3 and things will look familiar.

Then add in the fact that console gaming isn't necessarily about just horsepower (look at the Wii). This product will be jumping into the arena with a tried and true digital distribution system already in place, which is one of the bigger remaining speed bumps in the console market. From TFA they're also looking at having tiered hardware, which is going to appeal to a lot of people.

I'm not saying you're wrong to be skeptical, but saying that it's because it can't compete with something it's not really competing with... well to use the old car analogy it's like saying, "That Nissan Leaf has some great innovation, but I remain skeptical that it can really rival the advantage of the raw horsepower and versatility of the F-150."

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Massive pedantry fail.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

First off it won't be competing against PCs. It's going to be competing against consoles.

Are you so sure about that? Adding up all the variables here, considering this is Valve, backed with Steam, using what seems to be stock(ish) hardware, and considering the work Valve's been putting into Big Picture and the Linux port, not to mention GabeN's vocal disdain of the direction Windows 8 is taking PCs, I wouldn't be surprised if this "console" really is just a simplified PC that just boots into Steam right away. I mean, moreso than other consoles.

Or in other words, imagine if Valve is taking steps to blur the line between consoles and PCs. As in, there'll be a definite, concrete "target" PC that developers can develop for, yet still release the same game with the same code on "normal" PCs. "PC Requirements: Best Steam Box, or [list of reqs]", that sort. Sure, they've got a high-precision controller for it, but what if they leave it open so you can plug your own mice/keyboards in and treat the whole thing like a plain PC, just smaller in form and on your TV?

Of course, they'd need some easy way to, for instance, dump custom maps or mods onto the device (i.e. TF2 maps), but I wouldn't put it past them to do so.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[citizenr]

More high precision than a keyboard and mouse? Good luck with that!

Have you seen Leap Motion? Looks like a perfect mouse replacement

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[ssam]

the xbox was 'just a PC' hardware wise.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Dancindan84]

Are you so sure about that? Adding up all the variables here, considering this is Valve, backed with Steam, using what seems to be stock(ish) hardware, and considering the work Valve's been putting into Big Picture and the Linux port, not to mention GabeN's vocal disdain of the direction Windows 8 is taking PCs, I wouldn't be surprised if this "console" really is just a simplified PC that just boots into Steam right away. I mean, moreso than other consoles.

That's true, but that doesn't mean that it'll be competing against PCs. It's being marketed as a device to hook up to your TV, likely in your living/rec room and will have controllers. THAT'S what is going to make it compete against consoles.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

...but my PC is *ALREADY* connected to my tv, you insensitive clod!

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[ByOhTek]

Also, you can get "more horsepower" out of the same hardware in a console sense than a PC sense, because you can more readily optimize for that hardware.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[sourcerror]

The problem is, maximum 3 simultaneous key presses are registered.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Gaygirlie]

Considering a bit is the limit for how fine grained you can get on a computer

Actually, no. A bit is the smallest logical unit a modern computer can handle, but the more bits you use the more fine-grained you get, ie. a 1bit register can only represent on or off, whereas an 8bit register can register 256 different values. Ergo, your assessment is incorrect.

the keyboard is the most precise input device you could create....

Incorrect, see above.

Imagine gaming in binary.

That doesn't even make sense. Binary literally means a representation of two different values -- how do you game in a representation of two different values? Well, the answer is easy: you can't play a logical, numerical representation of a system with only two possible values. That's like saying "imagine gaming in biodiversity."

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Luckyo]

Depends on keyboard. PS/2 interface limitations are long gone in the age of USB keyboards, and this is mainly limited by the microcontroller used in the keyboard itself as well as how keys are linked to it.

For example, my G15 handles six simultaneous key presses. In some combinations it can handle even more, but six is what it's advertised for.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[putch]

Not if you get a gaming keyboard. Most of the Razer models register 5+ key presses at a time.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you know you can buy a KB that isn't a pos

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[JackieBrown]

I agree that a keyboard and mouse are more precise. They lack the comfort of a controller, though.

I don't play online FPS games and even if I did, precision is less important to me than the ability to lay on my sofa and not needing a flat surface while playing a game.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[geekoid]

He is probably talking about turning. Turning n a keyboard in a game is tighter then on a console.
This is a major headache if you want people on the console to play people in a PC. You end up having to change the response from the keyboard.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[geekoid]

"First off it won't be competing against PCs. It's going to be competing against consoles."

Yes, but he wants console gamers to be playing with PC gamers.

Remember the types of games valve puts out. They want to do that in a multi-platform co-op.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[geekoid]

You can opitimze of PCs as well. People don't, but you can. In fact, I remember when the setup of of some games would actually compile module on your machine.
Doing so menas you need to also distribute the compiler, library and ONLY use libraries you include with the installer.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Beyond Opinion]

On first glance I thought your car analogy compared the Nissan Leaf to the F-15.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[tepples]

You realize that under the hood most consoles are just small form factor PCs right?

The difference being that a console's hood is welded shut. Steam at least has Greenlight.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

A bit is the smallest logical unit a modern computer can handle, but the more bits you use the more fine-grained you get, ie. a 1bit register can only represent on or off, whereas an 8bit register can register 256 different values. Ergo, your assessment is incorrect.

Alan Turing says I'm correct. Any 8bit register for example can be represented by a string of single bits. Your computer is a subset of a Turing machine, the fine grain control of which is a series of zeros and ones. Anything else is just an abstraction of this.

That doesn't even make sense. Binary literally means a representation of two different values

I'm sorry this confused you, I was using the computer scientist shorthand "binary" meaning "binary code." Since absolutely everything on a computer is just binary code, by typing in a string of binary commands you could be as precise as the processor's architecture can handle. This is about as pure CS as you can get.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I've opened up a PS3 and although I recognize the insides, it's built more like a TV set or those "ancient" radios.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you should stop arguing because you just look stupider and stupider. At some point you should just shut your mouth.

You said a keyboard is the most precise input device you could create, because of bits. This is clearly not true, you were not thinking when you wrote it. Obviously someone could add a pressure sensor to a keyboard and get 256 bits of precision.

Here's a tip: everyone says something stupid occasionally. It's ok, but when you do that, stop. Continuing to argue a lost point is how you look really idiotic.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[hierophanta]

there are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who do not.

binary is the lower limit for everything in the entire universe, everything still seems to work just fine though.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but you don't use a keyboard for turning, as that would be slow and unpleasant, far worse than a console controller with analogue sticks, you need a mouse for turning, and in that case you do get a massive advantage over the console players, not to mention those half-wits who are turning using the cursor keys.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

Obviously someone could add a pressure sensor to a keyboard and get 256 bits of precision.

You do realize what you just wrote, don't you? Your pressure sensor converts a pressure reading to a number between 0 and 255, which again can be represented by pressing the binary keyboard 8 times. This means that binary+pressure sensor has the same capabilities as just binary. In fact it's impossible for the pressure sensor to be more precise than the binary keyboard, because the upper limit of possible precision is the processor's architecture, which again the binary keyboard can achieve perfectly.

But if you want to get even more into it, the binary keyboard is still more precise due to the imprecise sensor you introduced. You can type out every single number between 0 and 256 easily and exactly with a binary keyboard. Do you think you can apply 256 different levels of pressure? Do you think if I tell you "apply a pressure of 143" you could hit that exact number on your first try? I know I could with my binary keyboard. 10001111. No you go. I'll be waiting and you let me know how that goes.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

The limitation of 6 keys is mostly due to packet-length for USB low-speed devices. I'm surprised we haven't seen any (or few, at best) devices that implemented the high-speed or super-speed (USB2) which would allow keyboards to present all keys being pressed at once.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine can go to 11.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

My Steelseries 7g can register every key on the keyboard being pressed at the same time. 5 keys is membrane keyboard garbage

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

is any of this practically useful in terms of "precision", or are you just an idiot who can't stand to be wrong? votes are in, and you're just an idiot who can't stand to be wrong.

none of what you are saying matters, because youre' equivocating "precision", and it's obvious to everyone reading it you're just being a (wrongly) pedantic moron. despite being able to enter any number with a two-key keyboard ("0" and "1"), it's a horrible input controller and there's a reason we're not all using it.

to reiterate, what you're calling "precision" isn't. we don't enter all input in arbitrary strings of binary for a reason. mostly, you are an idiot and everyone reading what you wrote knows you are an idiot.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Gaygirlie]

Alan Turing says I'm correct. Any 8bit register for example can be represented by a string of single bits. Your computer is a subset of a Turing machine, the fine grain control of which is a series of zeros and ones. Anything else is just an abstraction of this.

Actually, any number whatsoever can be represented by bits as long as you use enough bits. That however isn't a counter-argument to what I said.

I'm sorry this confused you, I was using the computer scientist shorthand "binary" meaning "binary code." Since absolutely everything on a computer is just binary code, by typing in a string of binary commands you could be as precise as the processor's architecture can handle. This is about as pure CS as you can get.

Again, that isn't a counter-argument. First, it doesn't matter which numeric representation system you use, the value stays the same, ie. a value of 254 in decimals is the same as 11111110 in binary. Secondly, you probably mean that the player would be toggling individual bits in the system on or off, but that still wouldn't be "playing in binary," instead it would be "playing with bits." Your use of the term is disingenuous.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Gaygirlie]

You do realize what you just wrote, don't you? Your pressure sensor converts a pressure reading to a number between 0 and 255, which again can be represented by pressing the binary keyboard 8 times.

That's really poorly worded. You mean the values between 0-255 can be represented in binary by entering 8 ones or zeroes, not keyboard presses, as the typical keyboard has 104/105 keys and each key can have two different states. A "binary keyboard" is, again, logically impossible: "binary keyboard" would mean that the keyboard itself only has two states, ie. a single button with only two different positions. The keys themselves, on a typical keyboard, only have two positions so they represent binary values. If you mean the data that is being transmitted between the computer and the keyboard, however, there's a catch: as long as the device transmits digital data then it will automatically be binary data -- even the pressure sensor, as long as it's a digital one or there is a analog-to-digital converter in-between.

But if you want to get even more into it, the binary keyboard is still more precise due to the imprecise sensor you introduced. You can type out every single number between 0 and 256 easily and exactly with a binary keyboard.

Ease does not equal precision. A pressure sensor with 256 different values has larger precision than a single, digital keyboard key, as the key can only represent 2 values. You're confusing the term precision with something else.

Do you think you can apply 256 different levels of pressure? Do you think if I tell you "apply a pressure of 143" you could hit that exact number on your first try? I know I could with my binary keyboard. 10001111. No you go. I'll be waiting and you let me know how that goes.

You actually just proved your own argument as false there: the sensor only needs to be put in one, single position to reach the same value as you'd have to enter 8 different values in binary to get, ie. the sensor has much wider degree of precision. Again, ease of use is a completely different matter altogether, and definitely should NOT be confused with precision in computer sciences.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[CronoCloud]

This product will be jumping into the arena with a tried and true digital distribution system already in place, which is one of the bigger remaining speed bumps in the console market.

The PSN Store for PS3's and BBN on Japanese PS2's, Xbox Marketplace, and Wii Shop want their argument back.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[CronoCloud]

The difference being that a console's hood is welded shut.

And for good reason. Even the worst games today have a higher level of quality than all the game-clone crap/shovelweare pushed out during the 2600 era that helped cause the crash of 84.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

You can game in binary. Try playing two-up.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

Actually, any number whatsoever can be represented by bits as long as you use enough bits.

I know this very well. I'm surprised you are arguing against me if you also recognize this. Let me try to explain it to you a different way, so perhaps you can see this more clearly. You know of course that when you press keys on your keyboard, you send a binary number to the computer that represents the character you pressed. Let's assume this is an 8bit number, so your keyboard can have 256 unique characters. So then it's easy to see that this 256 key keyboard is the same thing as a keyboard that just has two buttons: 1 and 0. We'll call this a binary keyboard. If you press a 1 it sends a 1. If you press a 0 it sends a 0. So the only difference between this keyboard and the 256 key keyboard is you have to press a series of 0s and 1s eight times in order to send a single character to the computer. Okay, so this establishes the 256 key keyboard and the binary keyboard can do the exact same thing.

But now let's generalize to any input. You mouse send binary signals to the computer. Your joystick. Your microphone. Absolutely everything that flows through the CPU is a string of binary characters. Therefore, a binary keyboard can replace any of the above peripherals. You just have to enter the correct sequence of 0s and 1s and you move the cursor as the mouse would or replicate a voice as the microphone would. Hopefully you're still with me.

It should be clear to you now, that for any command you send to the computer via an input device, I can send one more precise with a binary keyboard. If you use a mouse to move its coordinates 1.00 units to the left, I can send a command with my keyboard to move 1.000 units. On my particular computer, the most precise I can possibly be is 64 bits, and I can achieve this with the binary keyboard by typing in a sequence of 64 binary digits.

This should be very clear to you now. You know the basic unit of a computer is a bit. If you want to count anything or construct any set of instructions, they must be composed of bits. Therefore, a device which can constructs commands of bits is the most fine-grained (precise) input method possible. Going back to your 8bit register, it has 8bits of precision, while the maximum possible on my machine is 64bits. Your argument is therefore only valid for an 8bit processor.

Hopefully this is clear to you now.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

You mean the values between 0-255 can be represented in binary by entering 8 ones or zeroes, not keyboard presses, as the typical keyboard has 104/105 keys and each key can have two different states. A "binary keyboard" is, again, logically impossible

No, what I mean is literally, a binary keyboard. That is, a keyboard for the express purpose of writing binary code. A hypothetical instrument used to create the tape that programs a turing machine. Again, in computer science the term "binary" is not used as an ajective to refer to "a representation of two different values" as you put it earlier, but is a reference to binary code.

You're confusing the term precision with something else.

Correct, I am conflating accuracy and precision, as is so easy to do. But the first half of this sentence is again wrong, as I will explain below.

You actually just proved your own argument as false there: the sensor only needs to be put in one, single position to reach the same value as you'd have to enter 8 different values in binary to get, ie. the sensor has much wider degree of precision.

Here you are ignoring your own advice to not confuse precision. What does "wide degree of precision" mean? If we're going to start being pedantic, we should define our term precision so as to eliminate all ambiguity. Precision, as I understand it in this context, is to mean how exact you can specify a command. This could be an action, a string, a number... any type of input. Thus, a "wide degree of precision" would mean that the ability of the sensor to specify a command can change. Meaning this sensor might be able to specify 256 levels of pressure or 512. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this as I understand it so please elaborate.

In fact, with this I've mistakenly shown that the binary keyboard is not only precise but accurate. Accuracy, defined as how often we can replicate the same input. I might touch a pressure sensor and get a reading of 143. If I try again, I get a reading of 140. Then 160. But on my binary keyboard, I can enter in 143 every single time. Accuracy.

With the binary keyboard I can construct any string of any length to within the capabilities of the processor I'm using. Precision.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Gaygirlie]

It should be clear to you now, that for any command you send to the computer via an input device, I can send one more precise with a binary keyboard. If you use a mouse to move its coordinates 1.00 units to the left, I can send a command with my keyboard to move 1.000 units.

I'll just skip all the fluff you typed and concentrate on this: you're comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing a single action to a series of actions, and then claiming the latter one is superior because repeating it often enough results in more data! Now, if you were to compare apples to apples you could use either input device to get the exact same result if you just repeated the action often enough. You could enter 1.000 units with a mouse just as well as you could enter it with a keyboard.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing to do with PS/2. PS/2 and even XT keyboards work exactly the same as USB keyboards, except for the protocol. They send the key scan codes via a slow serial bus to the PC (USB has a special low speed mode for the keyboard and mouse). The amount of simultaneous key presses that can be handled is 100% up to the keyboards (key matrix and micro controller) construction.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[ByOhTek]

I didn't say you couldn't do it on PCs, I said you could do it more readily on consoles. There's a very simple reason for this. A console generally has a very limited number of hardware configurations, especially on what gets optimized (CPU, graphics card).

No need to have the overhead of distributing a compiler, and you can also hand code things that a compiler may not be smart enough to plan for.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Missing.Matter]

You are comparing a single action to a series of actions, and then claiming the latter one is superior because repeating it often enough results in more data!

Any machine that only ever performs a single action is not Turing complete. Performing multiple actions sequentially is exactly how computers operate, and is what makes them useful computational devices. If you've been arguing from this perspective, your point still does not hold. Since your computer can only perform one operation, it can only do one of three things only only once: move its read position, change its state, or write a single bit. Thus, the only precision you can achieve is flipping one bit, so the keyboard is *still* the most accurate input device you can achieve.

Now, if you were to compare apples to apples you could use either input device to get the exact same result if you just repeated the action often enough. You could enter 1.000 units with a mouse just as well as you could enter it with a keyboard.

If you read my original comment I said the keyboard is the most precise device you could create. Any device which reduces to the functionality of the binary keyboard, like clicking a mouse button, is therefore obviously just as precise. As long as you can manipulate the data stream on a per bit basis, you've achieved maximum precision. Something like a mouse optical sensor or inertial unit does not work this way (although I could think of a couple ways to rig them to do so). What still is not true is your initial assertion that you could create a device *more* precise.

If you are still confused by any of this, may I suggest a course on Automata Theory? I haven't taken this particular one, but looking at the syllabus, you should have all the information by Week 6 to arrive at the same conclusion I am presenting here.

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[jcfandino]

Yes, a keyboard for real programmers

Re:Carmack, Newell and Stephenson

[Anonymous Coward]

His point is that a keyboard is more precise because it's next to impossible to enter the wrong value.
If a normal keyboard used the keys 1-8 to represent the bits in a byte - with the key being either raised or pressed to indicate 0 or 1 - you can perfectly and precisely represent any 8-bit number you like. If a game required exactly half an input, you could press 5 keys to achieve that exactly (number keys 1, 5, 6, 7 and 8). As long as you pressed the correct keys, the input to the application would be exact; of course there's some human error factor but the method of input is precise, not magical.

On the other hand if you used a pressure-sensitive keyboard, you as a human would have to guess where halfway is. And even if you got it exactly halfway to the nanometre (which you couldn't), the mechanics behind the pressure key won't be precise (with current day technology) so it may not register as halfway anyway. Most of the problem in this case is human error, and indeed it would be truly magical if you COULD achieve your desired level of pressure correctly, first time. And even if you did, and the pressure sensor correctly determined the pressure level, you've only achieved the same result as the alternative input method.

The analogue input is going to be correct maybe 1 in a million times, and that's being generous. The 8-key input will be right maybe 99 out of 100 (highly depending on the speed with which the user must enter the input) - and of those 1 in a 100 failures, 99% or more of them will be PEBKAC, with the remaining electro-mechanical failures.

Just because your pressure key is only one key compared to a normal keyboard requiring 5 key presses, doesn't make it precise, just easier. You seem to be the one confusing precision with ease of use.

All very well and good, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Where's Half Life 2 Episode 3...?

Re:All very well and good, but...

[telchine]

Where's Half Life 2 Episode 3...?

You may joke, but people used to say that about Duke Nukem Forever.

Re:All very well and good, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean half-life 3?

AFAIK, HL2: EP3 was expanded into a full sequel to HL2...

Re:All very well and good, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then it came out after 10+ years and sucked horribly. Hopefully Ep3 will be worth the weight.

Re:All very well and good, but...

[Dunge]

Yeah Valve was respectable when it was a game developer company, doing great campaign of single player action games. Then they moved to online matches, then they moved to a online store and now they want to go in the hardware business. GO BACK TO YOUR ROOTS!

Re:All very well and good, but...

[silentbrad]

Hopefully Ep3 will be worth the weight.

So if it's distributed digitally, it'll be worthless?

Re:All very well and good, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then it came out after 10+ years and sucked horribly. Hopefully Ep3 will be worth the weight.

How much do you suppose it will weigh?

Re:All very well and good, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must mean Half Life 2 Episode 2 Part 2.

Valve can't count to 3.

Re:All very well and good, but...

[geekoid]

".. say that about Duke Nukem Forever."
With that comparison are you SURE you want ep3?

Re:All very well and good, but...

[geekoid]

Since they have done everything very well, Why go back to their roots. How about have these products that can pay for the type of work environment that creates great games?

Re:All very well and good, but...

[newspapercrane]

Then you can convince gaben to give it away for free...

High precision controllers

[Noctis-Kaban]

Trust valve to be the first to be putting thought into this. If it’s truly a steam based console, I expect console players to be mixed in with pc players online. If that minor leap of gestimation is correct, they will need high precision controllers to stand any chance of not getting destroyed by much more proficient and accurate pc gamers with keyboards and mice. I will look forward to seeing how this developes.

Re:High precision controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard that Sony's lollipop controller is accurate enough to play FPSes, it's just that console people got used to autotarget.

Re:High precision controllers

[ikaruga]

they will need high precision controllers to stand any chance of not getting destroyed by much more proficient and accurate pc gamers with keyboards and mice. I will look forward to seeing how this developes.

That depends on the game, FPS is not the only genre out there. If its a fighter or a racing or a competitive SHMUP, I'm sure any noob using a dualshock can destroy a kb+m user.
Anyway, I hope they are really putting some though in the controller as well and actually have a original idea, because by reading that article I couldn't help but to think the only thing I saw was Gabe, when asked about input methods, criticizing standard motion controls(fair enough) and using cool words like "biometrics" to describe something that looks like it's going to be your standard modern game pad. At least they have a good portfolio so they deserve the benefit of doubt. Everything else, save for the biometrics stuff, sounded great, so I wish good luck for them, can't wait to see the final product.

Re:High precision controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

And anyone with a good arcade joystick will mop the floor with the dualshock user.

Re:High precision controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

A racing title, I could see. Neither mouse nor keyboard have ever offered me anything like precision turning. SHMUPs, however, don't seem to me to have an advantage either way. Take that how you will, since I play them only occasionally and not competitively. Fighters, on the other hand, can be played on a console controller.. but the thumb is responsible for multiple buttons. Keyboard players, by contrast, essentially have a Hit Box festooned with extra buttons. Attacks can be triggered with any of the fingers. Some fighters are simple enough that the controller is at no disadvantage, but it won't hold any advantage either.

If Valve can design a better controller for general gaming, that'd be great. Playstation controllers haven't changed that much in 15 years. Xbox controllers started out terrible (unless you abused HGH all your childhood), and have settled on something roughly parallel to a dualshock with the left stick and dpad swapped. And basically every feature on them, Nintendo had before them. Dpad on the NES, shoulder buttons on the SNES, analogue thumb stick on N64.

Re:High precision controllers

[Luckyo]

Shmups, once you learn how to control them with a mouse, you'll never go back to joysticks, UNLESS it's a shmup with a very low speed of movement (think touhou focus mode).

Re:High precision controllers

[geekoid]

Nope.
Keyboard an mouse turn faster then any console controller on the market. IT's not game specific. It a fundamental design limitations of current systems.

Re:High precision controllers

[tepples]

Fighters, on the other hand, can be played on a console controller.. but the thumb is responsible for multiple buttons. Keyboard players, by contrast, essentially have a Hit Box festooned with extra buttons.

That might work if you only ever play online with strangers. But if you play in person, which I'm told is especially common with 4-player fighters like Smash Bros. series, you want controllers that more than one player can use from the couch. PCs tend to have one keyboard, and even if more than one USB keyboard is plugged in, all presses on all keyboards are combined into one virtual device before being presented to the application.

Re:High precision controllers

[h4rr4r]

That last part is not true. I have had 4 keyboards and 4 mice in use by 4 users on one PC. They also had 4 monitors and each had their own desktop environment.

Re:High precision controllers

[tepples]

I have had 4 keyboards and 4 mice in use by 4 users on one PC. They also had 4 monitors and each had their own desktop environment.

I'm interested. Under which operating system did you get this to work? And what HOWTO did you follow when setting this up?

Re:High precision controllers

[AvitarX]

I couldn't find the /. article where I read about it, but this is a starting point:
(google it) linux multiple keyboards and monitors games

The article was good, it talked about making a quake lan party setup for very very cheap.

Re:High precision controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

Not too hard with Linux or probably any other UNIX-like. 4 X servers is pretty easy to get going and if each has its own xorg.conf/XFree86.conf they can have fully separate IO

Re:High precision controllers

[ikaruga]

UNLESS it's a shmup with a very low speed of movement (think touhou focus mode).

THAT is exactly what I'm talking about.

Re:High precision controllers

[h4rr4r]

It was linux and I don't remember what instructions I used.

There are now commercial products that run on linux that make this brain dead easy. They are pretty great for libraries, schools and charities.

Re:High precision controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with GP, FPS is not the only genre out there. Sorry to say it, but racing, platformer, and fighting games are all VASTLY superior with their respective devices (wheel, dpad+buttons, joystick + buttons).

For everything else? There's keyboard and mouse.

Not sure how I feel

[james_van]

about different levels of hardware... I can certainly see where they're coming from, but it's certainly not the route I would take. But hey, what do I know?

Re:Not sure how I feel

[Vanderhoth]

I can understand the approach.

A "good" console for casual gamers that want to play something like worms or farmville would be dirt cheap, a "Better" console for some single player RPG players that require a bit more power, or just can't afford/justify the high end, and a "best" console for the MMO(RPG/FPS) for people that need the best performance and think squeezing 5 FPS out of the hardware justifies a $200 difference. Each console would be priced for their respective group, a casual gamer isn't going to lay down $800 for a machine to play word games with their friends and someone in the MMO genera wouldn't even bother with something basically as powerful as a phone.

Others may just buy what they can afford.

Re:Not sure how I feel

[Emetophobe]

I don't see a problem with it. PC games are already designed to handle various levels of hardware, and you can always adjust the game settings to suit your specs.

Re:Not sure how I feel

[firewrought]

I don't see a problem with it. PC games are already designed to handle various levels of hardware.

...at the cost of development time for developers, play time for players, and headaches for both. Know this: the awesomest technical product you can ever build is something that just works.

Re:Not sure how I feel

[h4rr4r]

None of this is a problem.
They just run the game in one of 3 modes, check which console you are on and run that mode. That will just work.

Of course when any just works item does not you are totally screwed. Which is why I try to avoid them.

Re:Not sure how I feel

[trunicated]

If I read the article right, the "good" console will actually stream video from a different device. So, you'll have a computer or laptop in another room, and use the power of that box to power your little steam box.

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm bored with Steam. Where is HL2 Ep3? Where is HL3? Get with it!

Crowbar controller

[Cyberax]

Dream come true: Half-Life 3 with a real crowbar controller!

Re:Crowbar controller

[MagusSlurpy]

Plastic crowbar with a WiiMote socket?

Re:Crowbar controller

[Cyberax]

Real crowbar with taped WiiMote. And don't anyone dare to come close!

Re:Crowbar controller

[Missing.Matter]

No, iron. We're going for realism here. But if you thought you could do damage with a wiimote slipping out of your hand.... let's just say the crowbar wrist strap is going to have to be heavy duty.

Re:Crowbar controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm... Jeri Ellsworth at Valve has already done this: Clicky

Occulus Rift?

[Anonymous Coward]

High precision, how about VR _&_ high precision? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oculus_Rift

"Doomed to fail"....

[mark-t]

... is the universal prognostication from producers and technical directors where I work. I'd personally love to see a Linux console succeed, but I just don't know if this is gonna work. I'd heard that the consoles are going to be priced in the neighborhood of $500 or more, and I fear they may price themselves out of the market for all but people who were planning on getting the console anyways simply for the sake of owning one. As an even worse side effect, if their device does not succeed, it might even have the consequence of steering future people away from the idea of trying to use Linux as a viable gaming platform ever again.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Vanderhoth]

That makes quite a bit of sense. Another factor is there are a bunch of similar consoles coming out all at the same time. They may end up spreading the people willing to buy the consoles too thin. I've already ordered an Ouya through their kickstarter, I'm most likely not going to get a Steambox or a game stick as well.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

To be fair, many in the industry said the same about Steam.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Xian97]

$500 might seem steep, but if you look at your total cost over the lifetime of the console it would probably be less expensive in the long run. It wouldn't take too many $60 games to run up the total cost of your system to higher levels, compared to getting games for a quarter of that price on Steam sales.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[gfxguy]

The way I look at it is that if I'm going to 'invest' $800 I can get a spanking good PC and run steam on it - and a lot more, and I can upgrade it when new hardware becomes available; I can also spread out the cost by buying a cheaper PC and upgrading it as time goes on.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[theRunicBard]

Maybe this is a sign that I'm becoming spoiled (or anti-social) but I would get both. Steam seems to be the next big thing on near-Google levels and I'd like to see where this goes. Ouya is just a very cool system that for some reason seems to have a lot of rpgs, which I'm a fan of. Though I agree, most people would stick to only one or the other, and even then, most would stick to the xbox. Shame. Both the Steambox and the Ouya could become big among the sub-gamer culture that's also interested in more hack-ish linuxy things though. Too early to call in my opinion.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you're not their target market for this

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Missing.Matter]

You can get games below cost for Xbox and Playstation too. You can either buy second hand or even borrow games from friends. I've gotten many year old games for pennies on the dollar out of the bins at Gamestop. And then there's always sales on Xbox live sales (don't know about PSN since I don't have a PS), which discount games like Steam. Skyrim was only $30 during Christmas.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[citizenr]

Ouya is just a very cool system

no, its a $80 chinese tablet sold for >$100 without a screen.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Vanderhoth]

Yeah, I respect that opinion.

I would get both as well, but I saw the Ouya first and I have a wife.

Off-topic I know, but It's funny. My wife loves what all the fancy electronics do (media servers, personal laptop, gaming machine, phones, T.V., etc...), but she sees them as a waste of money even though we use them everyday, just going one day without them throws her into fits of withdrawals. We frequently end up in arguments over what's more worth the cost a $1,500 shiny ring (which she already has several) or a new console/laptop/TV/Router. I'm tell you, if you're ever hard up for cash, just go chop off some married woman's hand, it'd pretty quickly settle your financial issues if you can avoid prison. The finger on my wife's left hand could easily pay for all the electronics in the house and she's got almost every finger decorated, not to mention the earrings and necklaces.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the good steam box seems to be made for him. He will have a good pc which he can then use to stream to his tv or whatever he wants to do at whatever time.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[sourcerror]

If you already have a decent PC the Steambox isn't targeted at you anyway. But I agree with the spreading too thin part.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Vanderhoth]

You can either buy second hand or even borrow games from friends.

Not for much longer, Sony's planning on putting an end to that with their new patent, and even if they don't enforce the patent what you end up seeing is more "incomplete" games sold first hand for $60 that'll then be used to nickle and dime second hand consumers for DLC that's probably already on the media. The future of console gaming isn't looking very bright and the prospective DRM schemes publishers are coming out with is making PC gaming less and less viable unless you're willing to pirate games to get rid of the crap DRMs. I've spent soooooo many hours trouble shooting my PC to try and figure out why a game wouldn't play only to find out it's because of some conflicting game I have installed, and screw that always on DRM crap. I wouldn't even touch Diablo III, I'm not going to be a slave to someone elses server/whims on when and how I get to play the games I paid an arm and a leg for.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Luckyo]

Jewelry is woman's safety net. Basically when a wealthy man dumps her for a younger model, she'll still have her jewelry for financial support. It's an ancient tradition that is unlikely to go away any time soon, and one that will keep price of gold and gems up.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

The $100 price does include one controller, which is typically a $30-$50 item on its own.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[spire3661]

There are no sales on console that come anywhere near Steam Sales. Its not even close. Rage for $5 on Xbox360, never happening. Sleeping Dogs for $16, forget it Console's purpose is to establish a locked in fanbase, and exploit them heavily and to always keep the premium facade up. You will NEVER see sales on console like they have on Steam because Microsoft/Sony wont allow it.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[sourcerror]

Ouya has the strongest GPU that's on the tablet market, so your $80 Chinese tablet doesn't compete with it.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

sure, you can do that.

some people don't want to play games on their pc though. i have a nice gaming pc but rarely use it. i like consoles, and i'd definitely pay hundreds of dollars for a console that brings steam games to my tv that i can play on my couch.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[cayenne8]

I'd heard that the consoles are going to be priced in the neighborhood of $500 or more,

If you can't afford to drop $500 for a toy here and there...I'd dare say your time would be better spend studying or doing whatever to get a better paying job so that you have the disposable cash to buy some 'big boy' toys.....

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Missing.Matter]

Microsoft/Sony might not allow it but Gamestop, Amazon, and other retailers, and friends certainly do. I got Fable II used for $2 only shortly after it was released. I currently see Rage for Xbox 360 on Amazon for $7.00 ($3.00 + $4.00 shipping). And I still swap and borrow games all the time for free with my friends. Can't do that with Steam.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[misterooga]

You forgot to post Anon. If your wife's lawyer gets a wind of this...

On a more serious note, I think in 10 years, those rings will still worth more than the consoles.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[mark-t]

Who said $500 was too expensive for me?

I'm more concerned that it's too expensive for most people who buy video games to spend that much on a video game console, considering you can buy an xbox or ps3 for under $300.

Yes, of course there are going to be people who will spend that much... but will it be enough people to make it a commercial success?

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[blind biker]

That makes quite a bit of sense. Another factor is there are a bunch of similar consoles coming out all at the same time. They may end up spreading the people willing to buy the consoles too thin. I've already ordered an Ouya through their kickstarter, I'm most likely not going to get a Steambox or a game stick as well.

Besides, at a sub-$100 price, both the Ouya and the Gamestick are in impulse-buy territory. Especially the Ouya, at $99 packs some really nice specs.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[chispito]

I got Fable II used for $2 only shortly after it was released. I currently see Rage for Xbox 360 on Amazon for $7.00 ($3.00 + $4.00 shipping). And I still swap and borrow games all the time for free with my friends. Can't do that with Steam.

Eh, to me, consoles just aren't the same. No user mods, no private servers, developer support is slow and cumbersome, and I can't, for instance, pick up my game and play it on my laptop while on vacation. And, despite the problem with re-selling or lending games, I still don't think there is much of a price comparison between consoles and Steam, especially if you're interested in indie games.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[citizenr]

Ouya has the strongest GPU that's on the tablet market, so your $80 Chinese tablet doesn't compete with it.

lol
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-how-powerful-is-tegra-3

"HDMI output on demanding titles causes noticeable frame-rate drops compared to running from the tablet screen"

"Grand Theft Auto 3, for example, regularly hits 15 frames per second on HDMI output"

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6112/qualcomms-quadcore-snapdragon-s4-apq8064adreno-320-performance-preview

Mali-400/MP4 is standard in super cheap chinese tablets (Rockchip RK3066)

Tegra SoCs have TERRIBLE GPU (think GeForce3 performance level), only CPU was fast when they were coming out, and that was due to Nvidia cramming 4 NOT designed by them, licensed from ARM, cores in there.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[DrEldarion]

... it's not a console. It's a gaming PC in a convenient form factor for putting in an entertainment center and hooking up to your TV. There are many people out there who don't want to go through the hassle of putting together their own PC, and existing premade / custom gaming PCs are much more expensive than this.

Sending it out with Linux preinstalled is a gamble, but they've already said that there will be nothing preventing people from putting Windows on it. And if anyone can pull off jumpstarting Linux as a gaming platform, it's Valve.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[sourcerror]

I don't know, the Penny Arcade guys disagree:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/an-in-depth-examination-of-ouya-tech-specs-this-is-androids-home-console-fr

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[mark-t]

Don't misconstrue my intentions here, because I'd really like to see Linux proven in this arena, but I'm genuinely concerned that they've priced themselves out of the market for video game consoles, and if they are really just trying to compete with pc's, well then, they are faced with the same hurdle that Linux advocates have been struggling with for 20 years... The ubiquity of microsoft on the platform. I can see no compelling reason that Valve making this hardware should somehow mke any difference.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it that everyone seems to forget that the 360 was $399, and the PS3 was $599 at launch for the upper tier systems?

Early adopters have dropped that much or more before, they might do it again. Comes down to the excitement that gets generated for the device before launch, and getting the more expensive units a clear "prestige" to them.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[mark-t]

Except the only people who *ARE* excited about this are Linux advocates. In case you were unaware, there aren't enough Linux advocates to make something a commercial success on the consumer side of things. If there were, Linux would have significantly more than 0.8% of the home desktop market in the first place.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[jebblue]

Linux is outside the concept of a market, it's open and free unless you want paid support. You can't imply "use" by market numbers when Linux or Open Source is at the center of the discussion.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[Anonymous Coward]

bad example there. I bought rage on xbox and it was on sale for 5 bucks. the reason for the sales is they are digital downloads not boxed dvds

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[L4t3r4lu5]

When Steam becomes a console platform, what makes you think that they will be allowed by the publisher to continue offering these sales? They will cut into console title revenue on other platforms.

This could ruin Steam, or just bring PC gaming back to the level of premium pricing forever.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[mark-t]

Being "outside of the market", as you put it, does not instill any more popularity than it already has. Linux use is an almost vanishingly small percentage of home users as it is, and most of those that also run games also already have windows, so there's not going to be any incentive for them to rush out and buy this console.

It's content (generally speaking) that drives console sales, after all... and if all the content works on Windows PC's anyways, what motivation would anybody have to buy this unless they were already going to anyways? And really, do you think that number would be enough to make it commercially successful?

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[bingoUV]

I don't understand. You, and your advisors, are saying it is "doomed" to fail only based on the fact that it is based on Linux and a "rumoured" price. So the only thing you know for sure is that it is based on Linux; and you conclude it is "doomed" to fail.

if their device does not succeed, it might even have the consequence of steering future people away from the idea of trying to use Linux as a viable gaming platform ever again

Even Valve not failing yet, as the device is not out yet, you and your advisors are STILL steering people away from using Linux as a gaming platform. Your phrasing it as a fear for a future event is misleading - you are making it happen right now.

Re:"Doomed to fail"....

[gfxguy]

Sure... like I paid hundreds of dollars for a PS3 and Wii (and the consoles that came before it). But not $800. No way, no how.

Valve watching

[pr0nbot]

It's nice to watch a company in that phase of its existence where it's still essentially "good", i.e. doing interesting things in a better way, just ramping up, and morally fairly neutral. If they get anywhere they'll inevitably metamorphose into rapacious consumer-o-phobes, but for the moment I wish them godspeed.

Re:Valve watching

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how much of that has to do with the fact that Valve doesn't have shareholders to answer to.

Re:Valve watching

[flimflammer]

I would say an awful lot.

Re:Valve watching

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the key -- Valve will do interesting and good things for the player that other console makers won't. There'll be a variety of hardware and upgrades, i.e. eSATA instead of branded expansion drives at premium prices.

Re:Valve watching

[CronoCloud]

You do know that PS3 hard drives are user replaceable and are standard 2.5" SATA drives don't you?

Re:Valve watching

[RivenAleem]

Sorry, but this is one of the few times I'd spend mod points on an AC, and I unfortunately don't have them.

This may be one of the paramount reasons, but I'd also like to add that every time I see Gabe on video talking about what's going on in the world of Valve, you can see that he's totally genuine in his devotion to getting games to gamers.

I honestly believe that getting Steam (and games in general) to work on linux is not just founded on getting their linux based console to work better, but also to provide gamers who use linux (and mac!) a better gaming experience by making the games run natively on their OS, and not having to rely on things like wine.

Re:Valve watching

[Anonymous Coward]

If they [Valve] get anywhere they'll inevitably metamorphose into rapacious consumer-o-phobes, but for the moment I wish them godspeed.

Of course, Valve's worth and income are nowhere near the likes of Apple or Microsoft or Sony, but they are far from a small company either. Steam on its own generated 1 billion dollars for Valve in 2010 (IIRC; too lazy to check) and they boast that they have a higher money-generation-rate per employee than Apple or Google. That's no small feat for a software company with several hundred employees.

Math

[kwerle]

A keyboard has no precision at all, it's either 1 or 0.

Dude. You need a new keyboard. Morse clickers went out a long time ago.

My keyboard has what - about 40 keys? And I know I can do combinations of at least 3 keys at once - but I don't know the full limit. Let's say it's 3, and any 3 at that.

That means my keyboard is capable of about 40^3 combinations. Hey - that looks like 64,000, which is closer to 2^16 than it is to 2^1.

Re:Math

[Anonymous Coward]

But will it properly register a partial press of a key? That's what the 1-or-0 is about.

Re:Math

[nschubach]

Technically, with most keyboards it's less... http://blog.controlspace.org/2010/08/n-key-rollover-what-it-is-and-how-to.html

Re:Math

[Anonymous Coward]

It is not 40^3 when you press 3 keys at once as you'll no longer have 40 key after the first key press.
It would be 40x39x38

Re:Math

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait to play your racing game... with acceleration defined from 1 to 9 on the keyboard ;)

Re:Math

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine can do 6. 40^6 = 4,096,000,000

Re:Math

[Applekid]

A keyboard has no precision at all, it's either 1 or 0.

Dude. You need a new keyboard. Morse clickers went out a long time ago.

My keyboard has what - about 40 keys? And I know I can do combinations of at least 3 keys at once - but I don't know the full limit. Let's say it's 3, and any 3 at that.

That means my keyboard is capable of about 40^3 combinations. Hey - that looks like 64,000, which is closer to 2^16 than it is to 2^1.

Funny you mention 3
3 just happens to be the number Valve is missing from all their keyboards. :)

Re:Math

[drinkypoo]

My keyboard has what - about 40 keys? And I know I can do combinations of at least 3 keys at once - but I don't know the full limit. Let's say it's 3, and any 3 at that.

It's probably more like 5, but it's not any 5...

Re:Math

[Subject-17]

Isn't it more like 40 choose 3, or about 9.9k But then, you could also not press a key, which means its more like pressing any one, any two, or any three keys, so more like 10.7k. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Sum%5B40+choose+i%2C+%7Bi%2C1%2C3%7D%5D Still, 40 keys is pretty small. Let's assume your keyboard is capable of printing out every 7-bit ascii character, you have a shift key, and every key but the space bar needs the shift to print out an alternative character. Printable ASCII ranges from 32 (space) to 126 (Tilde ~), inclusive, so we have 126-32+1 => 95 keys - 1 space bar=>94/2=47 distinct keys + space bar + shift key = 49 distinct keys. Note how you don't have an enter key, arrow keys, function keys, escape, shift, alt, or windows keys in this situation. So, really, you'd have more like 17.3k combos in this situation. Realistically, you probably have somewhere between 101 and 110 keys, with 2, 3, 6, or n KRO. So, for a cheapo board, you've got at least 5.1k combos, but for a 110 key board with full nkro, it's more like 2.5*10^30 combinations

Precision controller

[Qzukk]

Replace the D-pad with a thumb-sized trackball mouse and I'm sold.

Re:Precision controller

[Mike Frett]

Ouya has a Trackpad on the controller you know. =)

Re:Precision controller

[YojimboJango]

Too many people want this. For some reason no one will ever do it. I don't understand.

Re:Precision controller

[Tukz]

Trackpad != trackball.

Re:Precision controller

[Qzukk]

Actually, after giving it some thought, I realized that I've never tried using a trackball with my left thumb. Might have to try and give it a shot somehow (my m570 is definitely right-handed). Maybe there is a reason after all.

Steam Box Server

[ApharmdB]

From the Verge article: "For example, Valve intends to make Steam Box a server, which can serve games on multiple TVs around the home simultaneously. So you could purchase a single Steam Box and use it with multiple controllers for playing games on the different TVs around your home." I'd like this very much please, thank you. If I could share games in a steam account within a household that would be awesome. Currently, when I'm logged in and playing Game X from the account then no one can play Game Y. That's not any different than with consoles but you can buy multiple consoles. Buying multiple consoles solves the problem completely. Having multiple steam accounts with games split across them doesn't. You aren't going to have a separate steam account for each game. And then you still can have the issue of two desired-at-the-moment games being on the same account. And constant account switching. This is not a major issue, but it would be a very-nice-to-have.

Re:Steam Box Server

[GonzoPhysicist]

Steam in Off-line mode helps a bit with this (still only 1 on-line game at a time), but it's not all that different from console games that often tie themselves to an on-line account once activated.

Re:Steam Box Server

[Anonymous Coward]

From the Verge article: "For example, Valve intends to make Steam Box a server, which can serve games on multiple TVs around the home simultaneously. So you could purchase a single Steam Box and use it with multiple controllers for playing games on the different TVs around your home."

I'd like this very much please, thank you. If I could share games in a steam account within a household that would be awesome. Currently, when I'm logged in and playing Game X from the account then no one can play Game Y. That's not any different than with consoles but you can buy multiple consoles. Buying multiple consoles solves the problem completely. Having multiple steam accounts with games split across them doesn't. You aren't going to have a separate steam account for each game. And then you still can have the issue of two desired-at-the-moment games being on the same account. And constant account switching. This is not a major issue, but it would be a very-nice-to-have.

Launch Steam in offline mode on the "extra" PCs wanting to play a game, internet features of games still work fine, the only thing you're disconnected from is Steam Friends / Steam Store. Hell, you can even symlink your steamapps directory to a NAS/Samba share and not worry about needing to keep your games up to date on multiple machines.

But then again, this wouldn't be slashdot if there weren't people complaining for solutions to problems that haven't actually existed in years :-P

Re:Steam Box Server

[Vanderhoth]

Actually I said I probably wouldn't buy a steambox because I've around bought an Ouya, but I'd reconsider that if this was the case. I have lots of games on my steam account that my wife likes, but only one of us at a time can us it. This would solve that issue and make the steambox more like what I think a console should be, small, usable on all home TVs and not restrictive to the person using it. It'd also be pretty awesome if my wife and/or daughter and myself could play multiplayer in the same room/house with one console, which seems to be something the last generation of consoles, and I expect the next gen, have left out. I know it's more of a game design rather than a console design issue, but I can't afford two $800 consoles just to play the occasional multiplayer game on and designing a console that works as you described would solve that issue.

So it's not a console

[thetoadwarrior]

They're making a PC and not only that they're already planning for people to install windows on it. So it sounds more like this is a half assed move to piss of Microsoft.

Re:So it's not a console

[Mike Frett]

Exactly what I was thinking, why all the Linux talk when you are just going to enable people to Install Windows, which they will. What Valve has done is gotten Linux users excited, and then spat in our faces. Developers will NOT make games for Linux in this fashion. I can see Devs now telling people if they want to play their game on a Steambox, they need to Install Windows. I'm Personally upset and if this is the case, I'm finished supporting the liars and scam artists at Valve.

Re:So it's not a console

[flimflammer]

How exactly would this be a move to piss off Microsoft?

Re:So it's not a console

[thetoadwarrior]

Valve's Steambox is more likely to hard the 360 than the PS3 or Nintendo. The reason being is because the PC doesn't offer anything Nintendo does and both Sony and Nintendo have way more exclusives than the 360. The xbox 360 is also quite unpopular outside of North America. Because of that Sony still managed to catch and finally pass the 360 despite being more expensive, initially having fewer games and all the bad press about it's online service.

Not only that any gamer it draws away from the 360 potentially takes them away from Windows too as this is just a PC. Unlike now where if Steam steals customers from the 360 it would be placing them on windows.

Gabe made it clear he feels Windows 8 is a threat to his business (especially the app store) so now he's being all anti-windows despite the fact he was all too happy to support windows for the longest time. So I wouldn't be that surprised if Microsoft makes him a sweet deal in some way and he accepts.

Re:So it's not a console

[Dog-Cow]

Where's the (-5 : Whiny shit) mod option?

Re:So it's not a console

[jbonomi]

Weird, is this a Linux advocate whining about a device that lets users install a different OS on it?

Re:So it's not a console

[Patch86]

...why all the Linux talk when you are just going to enable people to Install Windows, which they will.

Hang on a cotton picking moment. One of the key principals of FOSS is that - it's your device and your software, and you should be free to do what you like to them. Locking down a person's device so that they can't install their own software on it is plain wrong, and Valve are sensible not to go that route. Would you prefer that their console was the new Tivo?

If I buy one, I'll relish that it has Linux on it. But one day, I may decide to wipe the Valve-selected version of Linux and put something else on there- my own version of Linux, or Android, or BSD, or whatever. And why shouldn't I be allowed to put Windows on it if I so choose? It is my device, right?

Valve selling consoles pre-loaded with Linux is still a huge deal, and a huge victory for the Linux community. Don't miss out on the potential party because you're bitter they're not leading some quixotic attack on Microsoft while they're at it.

Bizarre final statement

[Anonymous Coward]

"The internet is super smart. If you do something that is cool, that's actually worth people's time, then they'll adopt it. If you do something that's not cool and sucks, you can spend as many marketing dollars as you want, [they] just won't." ... riiiiiight. The "internet" is full of morons who promote stupid worthless crap and wouldn't use or promote something good if their lives depended on it.

One Box to rule them all

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve, please, make a "companion cube"-styled Steam Box and take all our monies

Signed, the Internets

Netflix

[goldsaturn]

From the article:

"So... Netflix on the Steam Box?" "Oh absolutely. You can fire up a web browser, you can do whatever you want."

Until Netflix runs in something other than silverlight, this isn't going to work the way Gabe seems to think it is.

Re:Netflix

[Anonymous Coward]

From the article:

"So... Netflix on the Steam Box?"
"Oh absolutely. You can fire up a web browser, you can do whatever you want."

Until Netflix runs in something other than silverlight, this isn't going to work the way Gabe seems to think it is.

Well, he did elsewhere say that you could install Windows on it, so yes, you could in theory view netflix... Just not out of the box on the original Linux OS.

Re:Netflix

[flimflammer]

Seriously? You don't think they can't figure something out with Netflix, who has custom software on every single console on the market, plus most mainstream handheld devices?

I'm not sure he was implying that you would launch Netflix from a browser. He seemed to just be listing off every day tasks that you traditionally do with a computer that you can do with the steam box.

That's not to say that you can't already run Netflix inside Linux, because, you know, you can.

Re:Netflix

[iroll]

I can watch Netflix on my Nexus S, and I don't think that it uses Silverlight.

Re:Netflix

[GonzoPhysicist]

Out of curiosity, how does Netflix run on Chrome-books?

Re:Netflix

[marsu_k]

My "smart" TV runs Linux, and Netflix, just fine.

Re:Netflix

[goldsaturn]

I think they can, but it will require a similar agreement to the one I assume that the people that make game consoles, chromebooks, and set top blu ray players have to sign in order to have a client that can access Netflix. (Not sure which way the money goes there.) If all he's saying is that the system won't prevent you from running other programs besides Steam, like a web browser, that's not the same thing as supporting Netflix. I agree that he might have meant that it would support a web browser in addition to Netflix, in which case so much the better.

Re:Netflix

[wilson_c]

Netflix supports something like 280 different platforms. Silverlight only runs on a handful of those.

No more

[systemidx]

No more multi-function consoles, please. Please refocus all energies into Half Life 3 / 2 - Episode: 3.

That is all. Thank you.

Re:No more

[Anonymous Coward]

Half-Life 2 episode 3 and Half-Life 3 were both finished two years ago. But Valve got so sick of listening to fanboys whine about them that they decided to shelve them. I'm told they're awesome too, but now you're never going to know.

Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[VortexCortex]

Where is my watch? My Alarm Clock? Oh, that's right, I don't use one. I use the general purpose computer in my pocket: A "Smart" Phone...

Once, not so long ago, Game machines were purely mechanical. Levers, knobs, gears, buttons and contractors shot balls through hoops or pucks into goals, etc. This meant that each Arcade Game's hardware was custom fit to the game itself. With the advent of digital games with integrated circuits it got cheaper to mass produce the games because you could install multiple different games onto the hardware, but memory constraints and controller configurations meant that the arcade cabinets only supported one game at a time.

As hardware got cheap enough the demand for digital games resulted in home gaming consoles. These early consoles weren't as powerful as the arcade machines, but they allowed one piece of hardware to run many different games. The console hardware was necessarily dedicated to gaming because it needed to be designed for speed: Consoles favored read-only cartridges for near instant data access speed vs slow magnetic media, and dedicated graphics systems with hardware collision detection over general purpose computing logic. The game consoles were less powerful than the arcade machines, but eventually they closed the gap.

As before with single game Arcade Cabinet hardware vs multi-game supporting hardware, the more general purpose game hardware became dominant; Thus, Consoles destroyed the Arcade market. PCs were even more general purpose that consoles, but as with the more powerful dedicated Arcade Cabinets vs weaker Consoles, the consoles held dominion in the game market. The circuitry in game consoles had become so generalized it was nearly indistinguishable from PCs. Some consoles even flirted with being both a Console and a general purpose PC (Atari PC), but their hardware optimizations for sprite collisions and scrolling kept them in in first place.

As the gap closed between PC and Game Console, the game consoles themselves became the exact same as a PC in hardware terms, even to the point of running PC OSs like a modified version of Windows, and Linux. At this point the PCs had eclipsed Game Consoles in terms of raw power. The PC's more general purpose design had been eroding all dedicated electronics, not just the game industry. Everything from, Televisions, set-top cable boxes, TV remotes, phones, had been installed with general purpose computing components. The future looked bleak for any dedicated circuitry, especially dedicated gaming hardware, as phones and tablet computers quickly approached and even surpassed the power of some gaming hardware (Wii).

We are at the end of the dedicated gaming hardware history, having caught up with the present. Vendor lock-in, DRM, and dedicated controllers have become the only differentiating features between general purpose computing and dedicated gaming hardware -- And console like controllers are now available for PCs (but the more general purpose keyboard and mouse aren't on consoles...), leaving only anti-features as "pros" in the console's corner. Console hardware cycles have slowed, unable to keep pace with the more rapidly improving mobile and desktop computing markets, they need to take more time to make the next leap because they know the console hardware is sub-par vs PCs even before the console is released (this wasn't always true in the past, however), and they can milk the console for the most money possible -- Much to the chagrin of hardcore gamers and developers alike who both want to play and make better games if only the hardware were better... Gamers continue to buy games for dedicated hardware made by entrenched publishers due to nostalgia, ease of install and availability only, everything else from exclusivity to DRM being ant-features. Meanwhile developers try ever harder to make cross platform titles so that all gamers can play their games. AAA studios, being forced to dumb down games because of the lowest common denominator (consoles

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

nostalgia, ease of install and availability only

Don't look down on these features, they're really important, and if you ignore them, your platform is unlikely to be a success. You seem to be mixing a future potential with current reality, and it's distorting your view of the world, causing you to make poor predictions. For example,

Driver issues? They'll be ironed out by the market place if you stop babying the hardware MFGs and working around their bugs.

That's a dream, not a reality. If you want success, you need to prepare for reality. Another example,

I myself am making a brand new 3D engine, and everything all libraries, image loading, codecs, etc from scratch.

That's great, I think the more 3D engines around the better so I don't want to discourage you, but where are your artists? Game engines don't make sales anymore, it's artists that make a game look good.

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[kamapuaa]

It's not like Home PCs being commonplace us anything new. It's not like the essential similarity of consoles and home PCs is anything new. It's not like the advantages for the PCs are anything new. You could have written basically the exact same essay 15 years ago. And yet in that time, Consoles have remained popular, because

1) Nobody wants to attach their PC to their TV
2) Consoles are a hell of a lot simpler to use than a PC, you don't have to think about anti-virus programs and you can just hit the power button to turn it off.
3) Consoles don't require you to bother about which graphics card+etc. you want
4) Having every game be built around a gamepad is perceived as better (XBox/PS3 could easily add a keyboard + mouse combo if they wanted)
5) Piracy rates on Computers are much higher, discouraging game development.

If PC gaming was so much better, gamers would all be playing PC games and developers would be catering to that audience.

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[tepples]

Nobody wants to attach their PC to their TV

Then buy a second small form factor PC and call it a "console that runs PC games" instead of a PC. That's what the Steam box is about.

you don't have to think about anti-virus programs

Unless you want to run certain third-party programs that the console maker thinks are malware because the console maker refuses to allow them to be distributed through the official channel.

you can just hit the power button to turn it off.

A PC can likewise be configured to shut down, stand by, or hibernate when the power button is pressed.

Consoles don't require you to bother about which graphics card+etc. you want

PCs don't require you to bother about which brand of console (Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo) you want.

Having every game be built around a gamepad is perceived as better

The Steam store can filter games by whether they allow full controller operation.

Piracy rates on Computers are much higher, discouraging game development.

Developer acceptance rates on Consoles are much lower, discouraging game development especially by startups. Other than PCs, on what platform is a startup game studio supposed to build "relevant video game industry experience" and "financial stability"?

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[PhxBlue]

5) Piracy rates on Computers are much higher, discouraging game development.

[Citation needed]

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[YojimboJango]

See here's what I don't think you understand. Valve is not selling dedicated hardware. They are selling STANDARDIZED hardware. Two of their "Good, Better, Best" systems will be general purpose linux PCs that come pre-loaded with steam set to go full screen on startup.

I fully believe that general purpose PCs will eventually overtake consoles, but I don't think it already happened due to a single factor. Price. Now a console may currently cost more than an equivalent gaming PC, but keep in mind, current generation consoles are sunk expenses for 95% of their player base, and have been for 5 or so years. General purpose PC's are price competing against a sunk expense, and that's always a loosing battle. However that's only true until the console cycle refreshes itself.

Here's how I see it playing out. MS and Sony know that they need to release a 10 year console that is at least somewhat edges out a similarly priced gaming PC. That might buy them 10 more years of sunk expenses that they can ride on, but this very well may be the last console generation. Valve sees this and is heavily invested in general purpose gaming. If they can bridge the gap with good enough hardware at a competetive price point they may well be able to get the future on 10 years early.

We'll just have to see how everything prices out next year as it happens though.

Re:Gaming History; The Fate of Dedicated Hardware

[CronoCloud]

And console like controllers are now available for PCs (but the more general purpose keyboard and mouse aren't on consoles...),

1999 called, it wants it's argument back. You do know that the PS2 and PS3 have USB ports for a reason. People have been hooking mice and keyboards up to consoles for a decade, not even taking into account the dedicated mice for the PSone, Genesis and SNES.

Mass-market computer keyboards have binary keys

[tepples]

Mass-market computer keyboards have binary keys. The microcontroller in the keyboard sends one code when a key is pressed and another when it is released. Unlike musical keyboards, and unlike PS2 and PS3 controllers, computer keyboards aren't sensitive to strike velocity or key pressure ("aftertouch"). To switch between W walking forward and running forward requires a "run button", just like on the NES and Super NES.

A slim minority connects PC to TV

[tepples]

my PC is *ALREADY* connected to my tv

I wish other gamers were as enlightened as you. But in the real world, I get the impression from other Slashdot comments that you are in a slim minority. Mass-produced products are for the masses, not the edge cases.

Re:A slim minority connects PC to TV

[mjwx]

my PC is *ALREADY* connected to my tv

I wish other gamers were as enlightened as you. But in the real world, I get the impression from other Slashdot comments that you are in a slim minority. Mass-produced products are for the masses, not the edge cases.

My media centre PC is connected to my TV. My gaming box is connected to my 1920x1200 IPS monitor. TV's aren't that good for gaming when their resolution is limited to 1920x1080 and 27" 2560x1440 monitors are now under A$300. This is the main reason TV's wont replace monitors for gamers, monitors are improving whilst TV's are stuck at their current resolutions.

Re:A slim minority connects PC to TV

[tepples]

This is the main reason TV's wont replace monitors for gamers, monitors are improving whilst TV's are stuck at their current resolutions.

One advantage of gaming on a TV is that you can plug in two to four gamepads and turn on a game in a gamepad-friendly genre (that is, not FPS or RTS). This way everyone can play together on the couch, even if you didn't all happen to bring a gaming laptop to make a LAN party.

Re:A slim minority connects PC to TV

[afidel]

That lower resolution also allows you to use a cheaper and lower power GPU and CPU. I love the fact that my HTPC is all but silent yet it can play most modern games at fullscreen and with full effects.

Revenge of the $#!+

[tepples]

Hopefully Ep3 will be worth the weight.

If Ep3 is like a certain Ep3, I have one word for you: "Nooooooo..."

JXD S5100

[tepples]

The $100 price does include one controller

So does the Chinese tablet.

One for the desk and one for the living room

[tepples]

If you only have one decent PC, it's probably stuck on a desk. A Steam box would fit in the living room.

Virtual Console

[tepples]

There are no sales on console that come anywhere near Steam Sales. Its not even close. Rage for $5 on Xbox360, never happening.

Super Mario Bros. 3 for $5 on Wii, happening.

Sleeping Dogs for $16, forget it

"Player's Choice" series for $20 each, remember it

Re:Virtual Console

[Anonymous Coward]

console games sale prices come nowhere near Steam sale prices, why even argue

Grand Theft Auto Collection : $12.49 on last Steam sale, GTA 1,2,3,Vice City,San Andreas, 4, 4:Episodes
THQ Pack: $24, about 10 games including Saints Row 3, Darksiders 2, Metro 2033,

and older games for $2-3, when have older console games ever go that cheap, even used.

Re:Virtual Console

[CronoCloud]

You can pick up PSone games on the PSN store for 5.99. And yes they DO have sales just like steam. Just booted up the PS3 and checking out the weekly deals:

console games sale prices come nowhere near Steam sale prices, why even argue

Dungeon Hunter Alliance (Online PS3 Diablo clone similar to the PS2 Snowblind engine games): 99 cents

Blokus 99 cents

Earthworm Jim HD 99 cents

Eufloria 99 cents

But to be blunt, you argument is why some developers pay much attention to PC ports, since from what they see PC gamers are either:

Cheapskates in the "first world" unwilling to pay full price for a game even if they've spend 1500 dollars on their gaming rig.

Pirates in the "second world" and "third world" nations who don't want to pay for anything.

Re:Virtual Console

[spire3661]

Hardly an apples to apples comparison to the 2 titles i mentioned. Im more then willing to pay full price on games im really interested in. The super cheap games i grab off steam are transactions that would not have happened otherwise. I wouldnt have bought Rage at even $10, but $5 makes it worth it if for nothing else then to check out the artwork in the game. That $5 was free money the devs would have otherwise never received. Thats being a cheapskate?

Re:Virtual Console

[CronoCloud]

You can't have it both ways. You can't lambast consoles and say how steam is awesome and better for having cheap games and that you don't have to pay 59.99....and then when it's pointed out that PSN has cheap games, say you would pay full price on games you're interested in.

Re:Virtual Console

[spire3661]

Really? You are going to go there? My point was consoles never discount AAA main release titles like Steam does, especially as aggressively relative to its initial release date. You are purposefully being obtuse by comparing AAA titles to the indie/low-budget section, which Steam also has in spades and ALSO HAS MASSIVE DISCOUNTS ON.

Re:Virtual Console

[CronoCloud]

But your point about AAA games wasn't entirely clear. While as you said, steam discounts AAA games faster, but AAA games on the consoles do get discounted eventually But I don't think Steam heavily discounting AAA games agressively is a good thing. Why do you think some devs think PC gamers are cheapskates not worth spending much time to focus on.

Hww many times have we seen this on Slashdot: "I only buy games discounted or at Steam Sales" That is part of my point. It's the console gamers paying the development costs, which is why PC gamers are an afterthought.

Games cost money to make, PC gamers can't hold up "Cheap Steam Games and quickly discounted AAA titles on Steam"as the greatest thing in the world for PC gaming and say how that makes PC gaming better...and then lament how developers don't pay much attention to PC ports.

Unlike PC gamers I don't have that entitlement mindset where I expect to pay 20 bucks for a game that came out a month ago.

Re:Virtual Console

[Anonymous Coward]

Pirates in the "second world" and "third world" nations who don't want to pay for anything.

I am one of those pirates in a third world nation (Iran.) Not because I don't want to pay, but because nobody would sell to me! I pirate movies, TV shows, games, books, you name it. And lots of it per day; gibibytes in fact. But I'd like to buy stuff whenever I can. I buy my games from GOG.com (and some from Steam) because they are cheap, and more importantly, because they have no DRM. I hate DRM and network-based games because they tend to not be available/usable in Iran. I'm still hurting from when Blizzard decided to not let me play my bought and pair-for Starcraft II and Diablo III. (And now I'm using several hacks to play SC2 on LAN with my buddies; a feature than you don't have with the original game.) Oh, and you can't imagine how hard it is to get an internationally-valid credit or debit card in Iran; which I go through every time I wan to do a transaction with the U.S. (and now pretty much everywhere else too.)

I understand your argument, and know it's true for the majority of cases, but don't paint us all with the same brush. I know for a fact that many people from "second-world" and "third-world" nations would prefer playing games legally only if we get the same level of service for our money.

TV connection and physical buttons

[tepples]

And console like controllers are now available for PCs

But PC game developers can't depend on people owning controllers. One reason is that almost nobody appears to want to connect a PC to a television. The monitors that users end up connecting to PCs tend to be far smaller than, say, a living room TV, and they're not exactly big enough for two to four people to comfortably fit around.

(but the more general purpose keyboard and mouse aren't on consoles...)

Wii came with a Wii Remote, and Wii U comes with a Wii U GamePad. Both fulfill the same positional input role as a mouse.

leaving only anti-features as "pros" in the console's corner.

The other "pro" is that mass-produced consoles, unlike mass-produced PCs, come in cases designed to sit next to a TV monitor.

indie games can once again compete with them because they take more risks, run on more platforms (everyone with a console has a home PC, most have smart phones)

Just because someone has a home PC doesn't mean it's a gaming PC. Someone might have bought a PC with no video card, instead relying on Intel GMA (which, it is joked, stands for Graphics My Behind). Smartphones have the additional distinction of lacking physical buttons, putting them at a disadvantage for genres that involve making a character move, jump, and use a weapon, rather than selecting items on the screen.

I already HAVE a PC. Why would I buy another device just to play games?

Because your PC is tied to your desk, and you have one to three friends visiting who want to play a fighting game, party game, or cooperative platformer with you. Granted, this doesn't apply as much to loners who only play online with strangers.

Driver issues? They'll be ironed out by the market place if you stop babying the hardware MFGs and working around their bugs.

How can an indie PC game developer gain enough clout to pressure hardware manufacturers into fixing their bugs?

I could still load up Doom or Commander Keen, on my 368, 486, Pentium, Pentium 2/3/4 PC.

Would it run with sound on the operating system that shipped with Pentium III PCs (Windows 2000 or Windows Me) and Pentium 4 PCs (Windows XP)?

Re:TV connection and physical buttons

[PhxBlue]

The other "pro" is that mass-produced consoles, unlike mass-produced PCs, come in cases designed to sit next to a TV monitor.

These days, consoles are mass-produced PCs that come in cases designed to sit next to a TV monitor. The XBox 360, if I recall correctly, ran a console-specific version of Windows 7. Before Sony doubled down on evil, PS3s could run Linux.

Would it run with sound on the operating system that shipped with Pentium III PCs (Windows 2000 or Windows Me) and Pentium 4 PCs (Windows XP)?

Yes, with help from a little application called DosBox.

Re:TV connection and physical buttons

[tepples]

These days, consoles are mass-produced PCs that come in cases designed to sit next to a TV monitor.

Then perhaps we're defining "personal computers" differently. To me, a "personal computer" is a device whose owner "personally" chooses what is "computed". Architecturally, modern consoles are similar to personal computers, but in practice, the console makers have used digital signatures to strip personal computing capability from just about every console but the forthcoming Ouya.

The XBox 360, if I recall correctly, ran a console-specific version of Windows

When the Xbox 360 came out, there was no way for end users to load code onto it. A year later, Microsoft started selling an XNA developer license for $99 per year (a price that Apple copied for the iOS developer program), but only in select countries and only if the whole program is rewritten in C#. (Technically, it works with any language that compiles to verifiably type-safe, Emit-free, P/Invoke-free CIL that uses only the libraries in the .NET Compact Framework, but in practice, that means C#.) And for the first several years, the XNA API had some serious holes compared to the API used by established companies, such as no ability to output audio synthesized in real time before XNA 4.0 introduced the DynamicSoundEffectInstance class.

I could still load up [any of several old DOS games] on my [modern] PC. Unreal still plays on newer hardware.

Would it run with sound on [modern] PCs?

Yes, with help from a little application called DosBox.

If you're going to count emulators, then you can count every classics compilation ever shipped on a disc and everything in the Virtual Console section of Wii Shop and other consoles' counterparts.

Re:TV connection and physical buttons

[mjwx]

Wii came with a Wii Remote, and Wii U comes with a Wii U GamePad. Both fulfill the same positional input role as a mouse.

Motion contorol and touch screens do not provide the same positional input as a mouse. They provide positional input but not in the same way. This is why stylus pads have not replaced traditional mice, the mouse is more ergonomic and accurate than a stylus as well as much easier to use.

But the Wii is not the console we need to compare to the Steambox. The Wii is a console being a console, which is completely different to the Xbox and Playstation which are consoles trying to be PCs. The Wii is for when I have friends over and want to play together regardless of skill level. The PC is where I go to play complex games or play for any length of time, completely different requirements and roles.

How can an indie PC game developer gain enough clout to pressure hardware manufacturers into fixing their bugs?

They dont seem to have much of an issue with this currently.

Developers target a framework like Direct X, .net or other language. The framework deals with the hardware. Yes, everything in the future will be set in it's own VM, hardware has reached the point where this is feasible.

Smartphones have the additional distinction of lacking physical buttons, putting them at a disadvantage for genres that involve making a character move, jump, and use a weapon, rather than selecting items on the screen.

I can hook a Wiimote up to my Android phone.

The infrastructure is there, all phones/tablets these days have bluetooth, it's just a mater of software. This is why I believe that in the near future, consoles will be tablets with UI's and programs specifically designed for gaming and gaming peripherals (in the same way my Media Centre PC UI is designed for playing movies and watching TV). The traditional console will merge with the tablet and consoles trying to be PC's will simply go away.

Now the Steambox isn't for existing PC gamers or casual gamers. It seems squarely aimed at people who play "PC-Pretender" consoles like the Xbox and Playstation by providing the hardware and the software without any input required from the purchaser. People who play the Wii exclusively wont get a steambox... Someone who plays COD on the Xbox will be the primary audience.

Awaiting the inevitable mod-down from console fanboys for:
A) suggesting that playing games on the Wii is fun.
B) suggesting that the $CONSOLEOFCHOICE is not going to survive.
Sorry Fanboys, I remember the Turbo Grafx and 3DO, consoles trying to rival PC's are an aberration, console gaming is all about casual and accessible fun (and there's nothing wrong with that).

Minimum Requirements

[AlphaBro]

Let's see how well console gamers handle having to deal with minimum/recommended requirements and upgrading. What advantage does this offer over a PC, again?

Android 4.2 broke Wii Remotes

[tepples]

The Wii is for when I have friends over and want to play together regardless of skill level. The PC is where I go to play complex games or play for any length of time, completely different requirements and roles.

Then what do you recommend for indie developers, who aren't yet "tall enough" to qualify for Nintendo's developer program, to target the use case "when I have friends over and want to play together"?

Developers target a framework like Direct X

Or OpenGL. The problem is that sometimes a certain sequence of DirectX or OpenGL calls might crash a particular card's driver. The 3D drivers don't have nearly as much real-world test coverage as the 2D drivers.

I can hook a Wiimote up to my Android phone.

That worked for me in Android 4.1, but as of Android 4.2, it no longer works: "In this update Google has swapped out an essential component of bluetooth with a different solution. This broke the existing way of connecting with Wiimotes."

The infrastructure is there, all phones/tablets these days have bluetooth, it's just a mater of software.

That and a way to hold both the Bluetooth controller and the phone or tablet.

This is why I believe that in the near future, consoles will be tablets with UI's and programs specifically designed for gaming and gaming peripherals

In other words, you're telling me you believe in Ouya. Am I understanding you right?

Shelf space

[tepples]

As I understand it, the crash was due to retailers, which had limited shelf space, not wanting to carry games that wouldn't sell. Shelf space isn't necessarily as much of an issue with paid downloads as it is with physical media sold in retail stores.

Re:Shelf space

[CronoCloud]

Nope, it was consumers getting burned by 2600 shovelware and rushed arcade ports

Course it didn't help the 5200 never took off so the 2600 was getting long in the tooth in 84, compared to cheap true "home computers" like the C64, which itself was killed by the NES.

That's why the Nintendo "Seal of Quality" was created.

Changing title in an attemtp to get +1 mods.

[mjwx]

Yes, it's an obvious and shameful ploy. We all know why you do it.

Then what do you recommend for indie developers, who aren't yet "tall enough" to qualify for Nintendo's developer program

To understand the market before making things. Understand your capabilities and you potential client base before making business decisions.

The problem is that sometimes a certain sequence of DirectX or OpenGL calls might crash a particular card's driver.

Then it's an OpenGL or Direct X issue. The entire reason for using a VM or framework like OpenGL is so you dont have to code for every single combination of driver and hardware out there.

That worked for me in Android 4.1, but as of Android 4.2, it no longer works:

So because the Wiimote does not work on one version of Android, all bluetooth controllers are now useless.

Sorry, I expected you to understand that it was an example.

That and a way to hold both the Bluetooth controller and the phone or tablet.

The tablet would be connected to the TV, outputting as a normal console would. When on the go, it can be used as a tablet, when plugged into a TV, it can be used as a console. Existing tablets can both accept bluetooth input and have HDMI output. I left this part out of my previous post accidentally but it still should fairly obvious.

In other words, you're telling me you believe in Ouya. Am I understanding you right?

Belief would be the wrong word.

I see the potential of OUYA and similar consoles. The theory is good but remains to be put into practice. I think the OUYA will sell but because it's basically a beta version, it wont be a smashing success. What it will do is pave the way for future products by ironing out the bugs and identifying how the market wants to use it. Maybe an OUYA 2 will be a success.

I definitely see this as a strong force for change in console gaming though.

Re:Changing title in an attemtp to get +1 mods.

[tepples]

We all know why you do it.

I summarize an individual comment in the Comment Subject so I can more easily distinguish replies to one comment from replies to another comment in my Slashdot Message Center.

Understand your capabilities and you potential client base before making business decisions.

That's what I've been trying to do: figure out whether enough people among the potential client base either already own a Bluetooth gamepad and use it with an Android tablet or would be willing to buy a Bluetooth gamepad to use with an Android tablet. I don't recall having seen much evidence that this is the case.

Then it's an OpenGL or Direct X issue.

I was under the impression that gamers expected developers to work around an OpenGL or DirectX issue.

So because the Wiimote does not work on one version of Android, all bluetooth controllers are now useless.

Android 4.2 is the latest version of the operating system for the Nexus tablets.

Sorry, I expected you to understand that it was an example.

In that case, does the 4.2 update break any other Bluetooth controllers? This problem report claims that the issues with Bluetooth in Android 4.2 run deep.

When on the go, it can be used as a tablet

While on the go and it's used as a tablet, how does the player find the jump and fire buttons with his thumb?

Existing tablets can both accept bluetooth input and have HDMI output.

People would have to be aware of this use case before buying a particular tablet, as some tablets such as Nexus 7 lack HDMI and others such as Kindle Fire lack Bluetooth.

Single-digit prices and free trials

[tepples]

it was consumers getting burned by 2600 shovelware and rushed arcade ports

Let's analyze that, shall we? An InfoWorld article points out that in 1982, Atari 2600 game cartridges cost $4.50 to $6.00 to replicate and $1.00 to $2.00 to advertise and sold for $18.95 wholesale, or $43.47 in 2011 dollars according to this calculator. Assuming a 30 percent retailer margin, the same that Apple currently takes in its App Store, a game might have sold for $26.95, or $61.82 in 2011 dollars. That's release-day AAA pricing, and I can understand how people would react to having bought absolute crap for that much money.

Fast forward three decades to the present day. Release-day AAA disc games still cost $59.95, whether on PC or on console. But the rapid decline in replication costs allowed tiers of less ambitious software to take shape. In the 1990s, the shareware model of distributing a $0.00 trial version with only the first episode was common. I've seen casual PC disc games for $9.98 in retail stores. Downloadable games of a similarly limited scope can be $10 for a Steam game or a game in a console's store.

Now consider platforms that are not as open as the PC but not as closed as PlayStation or Nintendo consoles: iOS App Store and Xbox Live Indie Games. For about $1,000, anyone in a supported country can buy a computer, the device, and a certificate, and get started developing a game for these platforms. Prices for games on the App Store and XBLIG (in countries where available) tend to range from $1 to $5. Many iOS game publishers offer a pricing structure similar to shareware, with free trial versions that treat later levels as paid DLC. All XBLIG titles have an eight-minute free trial, and I've read that all games in the Ouya Store will have a free trial as well. I imagine that gamers feel far less burned by a free trial than by what Atari 2600 games cost. That's why I contend that the entry barrier familiar from PlayStation and Nintendo consoles is no longer necessary to avoid another 1984.

cheap true "home computers" like the C64, which itself was killed by the NES.

What exactly caused the NES to beat the C64? Was it the price of the 1541 floppy disk drive?

Re:Single-digit prices and free trials

[CronoCloud]

Assuming a 30 percent retailer margin, the same that Apple currently takes in its App Store, a game might have sold for $26.95, or $61.82 in 2011 dollars. That's release-day AAA pricing, and I can understand how people would react to having bought absolute crap for that much money.

I was alive then you know, the minimum price of 2600 games before the crash was 29.95, most games at 39.95 with some being 49.95. So yes, games cost MORE back then and had less content and gameplay.

I imagine that gamers feel far less burned by a free trial than by what Atari 2600 games cost.

That's why demo discs and eventually demo downloads via PSN became commonplace.

That's why I contend that the entry barrier familiar from PlayStation and Nintendo consoles is no longer necessary to avoid another 1984.

You're wrong. They simply don't want every basement dweller who thinks he's the next Shigeru Miyamoto putting his unimaginative crap without a graphics person or music composer on their system. They want pro-level stuff. Sure in some cases these days it's small low budget phone games ported from phones by pro phone devs but it aint one guy in a basement. Sure IOS/Androidand XBLIG have lower barriers but have you SEEN the games....most of them aren't even up to PSone or PSP standards. It's a haven for two guys in a garage to release a ton of derivative me-too crap. And piracy is rampant!

Frankly I don't want you developing for Nintendo and Sony, unless you're part of a team, you're not ready. You may never be ready. You're too literalist, and you're stuck in the past.

While I want you to acheive your dream the barriers are there for a reason. that I mostly agree with.

What exactly caused the NES to beat the C64? Was it the price of the 1541 floppy disk drive?

Not specifically. When the crash of 84 hit, those who could afford it jumped ot the C64 (and other computers) but there were plenty who couldn't. (Remember, a full c64 system cost the dquivalent of a few thousand dollars) Those who couldn't either stopped playing or kept playing their what games they had.

Then the NES hit and it was cheaper than the C64, was easy to use, had controls with more than one button, and had sound and graphics either equal to or better than the C64. It also didn't have 2 minute and 45 second load times. NES cartridges could hold FAR more data than a 1541 disk and access it quicker.

That meant a bunch of C64 owners jumped back to consoles, leaving only those gamers who liked games that didn't exist on consoles at that time (mostly RPG's and strategy games. Those gamers eventually jumped to DOS because devlopers stopped doing C64 (and later on Amiga) ports of their games because of the EXTREMELY high piracy rate among C64 owners (especially in Europe where most of the big C64 pirate groups were based), who having spent a LOT of money for those days, didn't have much for games.

SSI, Origin, Micropose and others stopped doing C64 games because of piracy. DOS gamers, obviously having more money than 2600 gamers turned C64 gamers, didn't pirate so much back then. They were willing to pay $50 bucks for whatever flight sim or lets-fight-stalingrad/gettysburg-on-a-hex-map-again-for-the-bajillionth-time game came out. Course the PC gamer market isn't just bearded jane's book owning engineers playing flightsims and hex-wargames anymore, so there's more piracy from the more casual doom-boys and those that followed them

Re:Single-digit prices and free trials

[tepples]

That's why demo discs and eventually demo downloads via PSN became commonplace.

I'm aware of these. But demo downloads help the case for open platforms as much as they help the case for closed platforms. In either case, the market has changed since 1984.

They simply don't want every basement dweller who thinks he's the next Shigeru Miyamoto putting his unimaginative crap without a graphics person or music composer on their system. [...] unless you're part of a team, you're not ready.

I'm aware that by myself, I'm not ready to compete with AAA games. But it appears to take experience to get experience, and I'm trying to find a good way to begin. I imagine that getting someone to fly me out to Seattle will require building a portfolio on at least some platform. How should a programmer with a draft design document organize a team to make a game for a portfolio in order to get a job offer from the establishment?

They want pro-level stuff.

What harm does it do, specifically, to make amateur games available? The harm was easier to see in the retail era when including one game on a shelf meant another game got left off, when reviews were in magazines that cost money, and when it wasn't as easy to get a taste of a particular game risk-free. The market has changed since then: reviews are on ad-supported or fan-run web sites, and players can try the demo for a game on an open platform before buying.

Sure IOS/Androidand XBLIG have lower barriers but have you SEEN the games....most of them aren't even up to PSone or PSP standards.

I haven't seen XBLIG just yet, but I have seen a bit of the mobile selection. True, there's a lot of obvious 90 percent, but not everything is crap. Nor does a retraux art style necessarily equal crap; not all people buying "snack size" games require scope and graphical detail comparable to a PlayStation disc game. Otherwise, the alleged Metal Storm knockoff with C64-esque graphics known as VVVVVV wouldn't have sold. Perhaps playing on grown-up gamers' nostalgia for the atmosphere of third and fourth generation games is a good way for a new developer to build experience. And if the concern is end users' perception of the effort needed to find a diamond in the rough, that's what free demos and third-party review sites are for.

It's a haven for two guys in a garage to release a ton of derivative me-too crap.

It's not as if the established studios don't engage in the same me-too practices, just with bigger production values and bigger marketing budgets. The market hasn't exactly changed. There's Call of Duty, Call of Duty by another name, Call of Duty by another name, sequels to Call of Duty, the other parallel franchise also called Call of Duty... One thing I've learned is that violent first-person shooters are a played-out genre.

And piracy is rampant!

I've read that playing infringing copies was fairly easy with the double swap trick on the PlayStation and the knife trick on the PlayStation 2, but they still won their respective generations. It's not that all players pay; it's that enough players pay to make an attractive return on investment. Some developers have realized this and returned to the free-trial model or even making most of the game free except for a few cosmetic items. Ultimately, as Gabe N. pointed out, widespread use of infringing copies is a service problem.

those who could afford it jumped ot the C64 (and other computers) but there were plenty who couldn't. (Remember, a full c64 system cost the dquivalent of a few thousand dollars) Then the NES hit and it was cheaper than the C64

I can accep

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controler

[Anonymous Coward]

how about a trackball on a steambox controler? more precise then mice, and you can hide it on the back of the control if you need. set a choice in games, right stick or underside trackball for view.

Who is this actually meant for ?

[trdrstv]

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