Microsoft Surface Pro Arrives Feb. 9

adeelarshad82 writes "According to Microsoft, the Surface Windows 8 Pro will be available for purchase on Feb. 9 in the U.S. and Canada. As anticipated, the Surface Pro will be slightly thicker than the Surface with Windows RT, and will weigh about two pounds. The tablet is powered with an Intel Core i5 processor and 4GB of memory. It also includes an 802.11 a/b/g/n dual band Wi-Fi, a stylus for pressure-sensitive input, dual 720p HD webcams, a full-sized USB 3.0 port, microSDXC slot, and mini DisplayPort. Since the Surface Pro runs Windows 8 Pro, it will work with your corporate infrastructure, as well as any older apps that you used on Windows XP to 7. In terms of pricing, the 64GB version will cost $899 while the 128GB will set you back by $999."

Comments

Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll start: this thing is too expensive for what it is.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Makes the Macbook air just as outrageous

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MrEricSir]

Yeah, but this has a kickstand. A kickstand! Aren't those all the rage with the kids these days?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

At those prices and h/w specs it looks like it's not aimed at the MS Store tire kicker crowd, but at corporate road warriors and possibly college situations where the professor "recommends" that students get a Surface Pro.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[webmistressrachel]

Why would any professor worth his salt "Recommend" his students be locked into a device for consumption rather than one that more freely enables co-operation and creativity? Because that's not education is for, that's why.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Except the MBA fucking rocks. It doesn't try to be a tablet and a laptop. It's a very light laptop, that's all it cares to be, and it's damn good at it.

The Surface Pro isn't good at anything.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not an MS fan but .NET is by far the best environment for developing rich desktop GUI apps, with the option of database connectivity. And MS is right up there with the necessary patent deals you need to play in the streaming video space.

Tablets could be a natural classroom accessory for technical fields of study. Instead of showing Power Point decks, profs could beam rich slides and video clips to hundreds of students toting these tablets.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[CohibaVancouver]

Why would any professor worth his salt "Recommend" his students be locked into a device for consumption

in other words, an iPad.

rather than one that more freely enables co-operation and creativity?

Or, in other words, a Surface Pro.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[BronsCon]

And that's why one would recommend a tablet that runs a full desktop OS and can, in fact, function as a proper laptop for 99% of users with the addition of a simple keyboard. Android, as much as I love it, can't do that; iOS, as much as Apple users adore it, can't either.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Barlo_Mung_42]

"The Surface Pro isn't good at anything."

Or so you've read and like to repeat on the internet.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Oh, you think I'm just spewing what everyone else is saying? That's true but only because it is true. Here's why...

It's design sucks. A device can only be really good at one thing. This is not a new principle to design but pretty much the fucking foundation of industrial design.

Want more?

It's too heavy, expensive and crappy on battery power to be a good tablet, and it doesn't have a real keyboard or adequate screen size to make it a good laptop. Basically, they've built a "laplet" (or "tabtop", if you prefer). Unfortunately for Microsoft, nobody has ever asked for a laplet. This thing will fail even bigger than the Surface RT.

Like I said, it sucks. Even Microsoft is starting to realize it so they've already decided to drop the price by $100.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

The Surface Pro isn't good at anything.

Surface Pro is the best tablet that can run x86 applications. Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

I'll also save you the trouble of reading two replies to your posts....

It's too heavy, expensive and crappy on battery power to be a good tablet

You might say a tablet is defined by being thin and light and having all day battery life, but that's different from what I want in a tablet. I want a stylus for writing. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. I want ports for USB drives, portable harddrives, video out. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. I want an SD card slot for expansion and swapping cards. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't. Hell even Google's Nexus tablets don't have this. So in my book, Surface Pro is the only real tablet out there. It all depends on the user's needs. The Surface pro is a little thicker and heavier than iPad (.5 lbs and .5") but the tradeoff is more power with an i5 and compatibility with millions of applications and devices. So great for you if your iPad or Android tablet is thinner and lighter and lasts all day. I don't care because they are as useless as rocks for my needs, and I'll gladly pay $899 for a tablet that does what I want.

and it doesn't have a real keyboard or adequate screen size to make it a good laptop.

What about this isn't a "real" keyboard? Or the infinite variety of bluetooth keyboards or wired USB keyboards that can be plugged in? I also fail to see how 10.6" is not an adequate screen size but 11.6" on the Macbook Air somehow is. That extra 1" is the threshold? I might similarly say the Macbook Air has inadequate resolution (1366×768 vs 1920x1080 on Surface Pro). Or that Macbook Air is too heavy (2.38lbs vs 2.01lbs). Or too thick (0.68" vs 0.5"). Or too expensive ($999 vs $899).

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[jfdavis668]

I put a kickstand on my bike, and all the neighborhood kids are amazed by it. They never even heard of one. I was just tired of finding something to lean it on.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[exomondo]

Except the MBA fucking rocks.

Wow i must have bought the wrong one! It's a good computer but I'm not sure i can get that excited about it.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Luckyo]

I'd say the main reason it "sucks" is OS. It's still a horrifying chimera of desktop and tablet, and does neither thing well. Hardware itself actually looks good enough for what I would use it for, if a bit pricy. But I'm not into tablets anyway.

That said if I were, that actually looks good. Solid build, essentially a laptop inside the screen with attachable keyboard. I can see this replacing an ultrabook for those who want to replace one with a tablet, but need x86.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Billlagr]

I'm going to try that! I put a playing card on with a clothes peg to make motorbike sounds as I rode..but a kickstand! Genius!

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[steelfood]

No, it's not expensive. It's just plain useless.

Windows RT was a dismal failure, and Windows 8 will be equally disastrous. It fails on the touch front and on the mouse and keyboard front. Having tried it extensively, allow me to name the ways:

Touch:
1) The Metro home screen is the only touch-friendly aspect of it. However, it is filled with useless Microsoft apps that can't function without an internet connection and are tied to largely inferior Microsoft internet services.
2) It has the usual miserable Windows software keyboard and handwriting recognition, with fairly limited support.
3) Outside of Metro, the remainder is the usual touch-unfriendly Windows interface meant for a mouse and keyboard, where fat fingers will simply fail. This is what gets me the most. If the thing is a touchscreen, then it should be configured out of the box to be touch-friendly. Instead, it is configured as un-touch-friendly as possible. And worse, while you can say switch Explorer to use large icons on a grid instead of the list or details view, many screens simply don't have a touch-friendly interface.
4) The edge swiping is annoying and easy to do accidentally, The left edge "screen list" is useful, but only to bring up Metro apps.
5) Having to go to Metro just to access the swipe that will bring up a button to get to the list of programs is painfully clunky. The bottom swipe should be active on the desktop screen, and it should be the list of applications, not an extra button.
6) The right swipe should have been able to access the entire control panel, but instead, it's largely useless.

On the mouse and keyboard front:

1) The Metro UI and swiping is as horrible as expected. Some things have Metro and old Windows equivalents, but most do not. It's incredibly annoying to switch between mouse and keyboard, and touch, and that's pretty much what's necessary to use Metro.
2) And I don't think I need to mention that you can't even get to your software list without going through Metro, which is already a three step affair even by touch.
3) It doesn't come with the cover, which is another $150.

Oh, and did I mention that you have to "activate" Windows before you can use some of its functionality? It's hardware made by Microsoft but there's somehow still a chance copy of Windows on it can be a bootleg. Activation is automatic with an internet connection, fortunately, but it's ridiculous that it's even necessary.

I expect Windows 8 to be slightly better than RT, in that it can run traditional apps. And there are third-party programs to minimize the damage Metro causes for those who want to do useful work with it. But that's about as good as it'll get. It's still a touch disaster, and a fairly useless "entertainment" device (RT comes with Office, but no games preinstalled).

Microsoft needs to shape up if they want to even have a shot at the tablet market. They possess a split personality disorder both on the UI front and on the developer front that they very much need to ditch. If they can't seem to figure out what kind of machine it is (or develop a separate "personality" for each purpose), nobody else will be able to. And people will avoid it.

For starters, they're going to have to revamp the entire look-and-feel of their tablet Windows to be touch-centric. It'll be easy to go from touch back to mouse and keyboard, because the mouse is just a very, very fine finger. But they need to commit to it, instead of leaving half of the screens in the old Windows UI and the other (useless) half touch-friendly.

And they'll have to include the keyboard out of the box. The software keyboard is a stinking manure pile. Nobody's going to buy a Surface/Pro without an external keyboard. Nobody's going to touch Windows RT/8 without a real keyboard.

Portable work devices are rarely perpetually-connected, while entertainment devices are usually connected. Including Office with RT to make it a useful work device was genius, but not including any games was equally boneheaded stupid.

Only if they can fix the split personality disorder in the rumored Windows 8.1, could it be a useable OS. Otherwise, it'll just be another disaster.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Barlo_Mung_42]

My Leatherman Skeletool is an example on how near sighted you are about design. Its blade isn't as heavy duty as a dedicated big knife. It's screwdriver isn't as comfortable as my big screwdriver or as easy to use as my power screwdriver but it's always with me so I use it far more often than the dedicated tools.

Have you spent more than 10 minutes playing with an RT? The design is brilliant. It is a very good tablet either with the keyboard folded back or snapped off. I often hear people complain that it can't be used in a lap and I assume these are people who have also not really tried one. Mine works great on my lap and on the airplane etc. Only complaint I have is that it doesn't work with my Garmin GPS watch to load the data (no drivers) and it doesn't have a pen. Surface Pro fixes those. Sure it only has about 5 hours battery life but that's plenty for a flight across the country or a long commute.

I spent much of the 2000s playing with and wanting various Tablet PCs. Having a mobile art device with a real Wacom pen has always been a goal. This still isn't perfect but even the haters (maybe not yourself) should admit that it's a solid V1.0 product, especially for Microsoft.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[thoth]

The thing you are overlooking is your needs aren't a significant part of the market. A stylus and all that other stuff? If those were major selling points then Microsoft would have been successful with tablets say... 15 years ago.

Your repetitious "90% of today's tablets don't" blah blah. Sounds like a prediction that Surface will battle and claw it's way to... 10% market share?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Surface Pro is the best tablet that can run x86 applications.

I don't need a tablet that can run x86 apps. Users don't give a flying shit about "x86" they just give a shit about having good apps to run. iOS and Android already offer that in spades. And the Samsung Galaxy Note supports the stylus in ALL apps, not just specially written ones.

Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

Apparently, you're not too hip on the tablet scene: http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxynote/note_10.1/index.html?type=find

It's thinner, lighter, cheaper, has longer battery life, 3G, and is designed for use with a stylus, etc.

You might say a tablet is defined by being thin and light and having all day battery life, but that's different from what I want in a tablet. I want a stylus for writing. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't.

I think I already covered this argument.

I want ports for USB drives, portable harddrives, video out. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't.

USB drives and hard drives? What fucking century do you live in?? And pretty much everyone has a video out capability now (not that I've seen anyone ever use that feature before other than fucking around).

want an SD card slot for expansion and swapping cards. Surface Pro has this, 90% of tablets today don't.

lol, lots of tablets have SD card slots dude. Have you ever googled an android tablet before?

The Surface pro is a little thicker and heavier than iPad (.5 lbs and .5") but the tradeoff is more power with an i5 and compatibility with millions of applications and devices. So great for you if your iPad or Android tablet is thinner and lighter and lasts all day. I don't care because they are as useless as rocks for my needs, and I'll gladly pay $899 for a tablet that does what I want.

And what are your needs? You mention all these features you want that the Surface Pro just happens to have but seriously, what is your job or hobby that requires these features? I'm having trouble envisioning it. I'm willing to say that it's possible that there's a small group of people the Surface Pro would be a good match for but I think it's a very, very small group. Congrats to you if you're one of them.

And FYI, that $899 does not include a keyboard. Feel free to tack on another $130.

Honestly, based on everything you've said, I find it hard to imagine how the the average consumer would choose a Surface Pro over a Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1. Keep in mind, I'm not any kind of Samsung fanboy.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree with everything you say, finally a tablet that is powerful and adaptable enough for me to want.
It will work flawlessly in my windows infrastructure without any sort of bridging applications or things that break, and allow me to do the things i want with it, install anything I want, write my owns little apps etc.. i think the thing is really cool and i am honestly excited.
I've watched so many people drink the Apple kool-aid and just cringed, primary because of how locked in those things are.

Mod me down now...

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Skeletools (and the like) actually have a primary function: to be a portable tool kit and it does a good job of it. Would you try to fix your car with it? Fuck no. But it can be a nice tool on a camping trip where you cannot cart around 100lbs of tools with you (and would be overkill anyway).

I have played with the RT. I don't want to get into the RT because that's not what this thread is about. I'm glad that your happy with your new device.

As for your last statement, I guess we'll see what the market has to say about it soon enough.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Luckyo]

You solved the entire problem for microsoft with its abysmal win8 sales and massive consumer rejection of the OS!

Congratulations!

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Barlo_Mung_42]

My point is that this is more like a skeletool. It may not be as good at any one thing but when you add up all the different things it's good enough at you get something that's pretty great.

I brought up RT only because it's the same basic physical design.

We will see. But even if it doesn't gain a huge chunk of the tablet / ultrabook market share does that mean it has failed? OSX is still at about the same market share it's always been at but people don't say it has failed. However it works out I'm glad to see MS try something bold and not just letting the OEMs race to the bottom. I wish they'd done the same thing back in the Tablet PC days to be honest.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[aliquis]

Why would any professor worth his salt "Recommend" his students be locked into a device for consumption

in other words, an iPad.

"But OS X is UNIX and I've heard that's super open!"

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[hairyfish]

These young whipper snappers and their rock and roll music. Get off my lawn!

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Good points. Honestly, I wish them well because I think the more competition the better.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Hah...I guess we'll see.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[hairyfish]

The Surface has a place. 90% of the corporate world use x86 apps, good luck running those on any other tablet. I've worked a few places that tried to do the iPad or Galaxy Tab thing and it never works because productivity requires a keyboard, a mouse, and corporate apps (which just happen to mostly be x86). We currently pay $1500 for a corporate laptop and another $500 for an iPad for a lot of our users. Even at $1100 (incl some accessories this is a win for us). I'm sure we're not the only company in the world in this situation.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Yeah, I get what you're saying with the corporate angle but most corps don't bother getting people iPads (unless they are salesmen or execs), so they can just issue a standard Windows laptop and call it done.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[shutdown -p now]

Surface Pro is the best tablet that can run x86 applications. Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

Sure I can. Thinner, lighter, Core i5, and it has a stylus.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[shutdown -p now]

For classroom accessory, laptops make much more sense, since you have desks to place them on - and they're much more convenient that way than a tablet would be. And the laptop can have a touch screen, too, and many newer ones (also with Win8) do.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Though I agree with what you're saying, I have to point out that your weight, thickness and price comparisons at the end all include the (built in) keyboard for the Macbook Air, but don't include an add-on keyboard for the Surface Pro.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MightyMartian]

Who actually cares about a tablet that can run win32 and win64 software? The overwhelming majority of those programs were designed for PCs, and aren't well matched to tablets. The genius of iOS and Android is that the whole platform is built for mobile use. I can't imagine trying to run, say, Simply Accounting or Office 2007 on a tablet. It would be nightmarish.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MightyMartian]

But I don't get it. The majority of x86 apps are not designed to work on tablets. Whether it can launch Quickbooks or not is irrelevant if actually trying to use Quickbooks is an unbelievably awful experience.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Zontar The Mindless]

Aren't most corporate apps these days really Web apps? Where I work (very big, very multinational software company), the only things that everyone has to use and that actually have to *run* on people's machines are Web browser, VPN, and maybe an office suite.

Tablets already have the first 2 covered quite well. (It's not like we're sitting around on our thumbs waiting on ports of Firefox or AnyConnect to iOS and Android.) And who the fuck is going to write a 20-page whitepaper or 50-slide PPT preso on a tablet?

So we'll have the sales guys going for e-peen points waving their tablets at each other, while (surprise, surprise) not doing much actual work on them at all. And 90% of corporate workers will still be using desktops or laptops.

So yes, in this case, x86 compatibility is not much of a draw at all.

(Now for me *personally* it might be fun to get one of these and to try to put Linux or Android on it. But "fun" does not a business case make.)

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[LordLimecat]

and it doesn't have a real keyboard

Sure it does, thats why it has a keyboard connector on the bottom.

I only got to try it briefly in a store, but what youre describing makes it sound like youve never used the thing. It is a tad heavy, sure, but not overwhelmingly so, and the keyboards were actually quite good.

Unfortunately for Microsoft, nobody has ever asked for a laplet.

I mean, its not like theres a market for iPads with keyboards, right?

Surface isnt a laplet, its in the same market as iPads are, and its quite a large market.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[LordLimecat]

Tablets 15 years ago were massively prone to breakage, had awful touch interfaces, had awful touch hardware, and were generally bad at everything they tried to be.

How many people have you seen with iPads and keyboards? What do you suppose those keyboards are for, if not "office-y" stuff? You dont think having the full MS Office available for surface (and built in by default) will have an effect here?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Zontar The Mindless]

Tablets could be a natural classroom accessory for technical fields of study. Instead of showing Power Point decks, profs could beam rich slides and video clips to hundreds of students toting these tablets.

Or they could, you know, just have one big screen at the front of the room, and show the slides and vids on that?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you're spewing what everyone else is saying because you've never used it so there's no other thing you could do...

A device can only be really good at one thing.

Then all tablets and PCs are awful, and no telephone should play MP3s or be smart. You have oversimplified to the point of stupidity.

And no, you're just entirely wrong when you say nobody has ever asked for a "laplet". Doesn't mean it's a good idea -- they could just be asking for "faster horses" -- but they absolutely are asking for it and you have to have your eyes squeezed shut and your ears plugged not to notice these people.

Don't try to paint me as somebody insisting this will succeed; I take no position other than that people shouldn't go full retard when talking about things. Also, when did they drop the price by $100?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Zontar The Mindless]

And that's why one would recommend a tablet that runs a full desktop OS and can, in fact, function as a proper laptop for 99% of users with the addition of a simple keyboard.

So 99% of those users would be perfectly well served by a laptop that is cheaper than surface + keyboard.

Thanks for enlightening us. :)

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

if you spent half the time you spend complaining on customizing you would find the windows X86 tablet can do much more than any other and any annoyances can easily be pushed to the back. Windows has always required some setting up and customizing, this one is no different.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[BronsCon]

Yes, and those who want a tablet would also have to buy a tablet. And those tho want to use their desktop applications when all they happened to bring was their tablet will be glad they have a Surface Pro.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[blind biker]

Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

Actually, the Surface Pro is a brick - it's heavy as hell, and there is a good reason for that: the oversized battery. The device has a much higher power dissipation than any other existing tablet, and even the oversized battery can keep it "alive" for 4 hours only.

As for a tablet that is actually light and thin, and "powerful with a stylus", the current king of the hill is the Samsung Galaxy Note II.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ShakaUVM]

>Users don't give a flying shit about "x86" they just give a shit about having good apps to run. iOS and Android already offer that in spades.

Uh, what? Being able to play Crusader Kings 2 on a tablet is a huge selling point.

I just returned yet another Android tablet that broke on me, and so have a bunch of in-store credit burning a hole in my pocket... I'm seriously debating getting the Surface Pro.

I hate Windows 8 with a passion, though, and the touch cover is terrible. So I'll wait to see if I can live with the type cover.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Ocker3]

Exactly, Apple has had to bodge together a whole suit of programs to get iPads to some kind of manageable state for large-scale Enterprise rollouts, with an x86 architecture a Win8 tablet will use a Huge amount of existing WinXP/Win7 systems and allow huge ease of use, especially authenticating to corporate networks wirelessly which is a Huge pain on an iPad. Most Enterprise systems lock an account after too many failed password tries, and require users to regularly change passwords. iPads don't know how to ask a user for an updated username/password if it can't connect wirelessly and keeps hammering the connection, forcing all kinds of nasty dodges.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Ocker3]

High Schools sick of trying to manage huge fleets of iPads will go for Win8 tablets in Droves

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

"A device can only be really good at one thing". You sir are an idiot.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

i have no idea what you doing on this site (or maybe /. turned into an apple fan club when i wasn't watching) but everything he listed is stuff geeks love. Yes it's not for stupid hipsters, but frankly i think that's a great thing.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[bemymonkey]

And Windows 8 sucks. I bought a Windows 8 Atom tablet for the insane battery life (OneNote FTW!), and for everything else, it's more or less unusable. Sure, Chrome more or less works, so I can check e-mail and use Google Reader and so on, but the OS itself (the Metro/"Modern" part) is horrible... undiscoverable, unintuitive UI (missing a function? Try swiping in or out from any of the four edges.... stupidest UI paradigm I've ever heard of) and the incredibly cluttered takes-ages-to-reorganize start screen... it's just SHIT.

Can't wait for a de-Modern-ified Windows 9...

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just it, it is not just a tablet it can be used as a full blown computer - mouse, keyboard, external storage (or _any_ other USB device) , and large screen (2,560 by 1,440).
It is awesome, and I'm sure docking stations will also be readily available for them.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[bemymonkey]

Are you really planning on using a tablet tethered to a power cord all day?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[bemymonkey]

Now all it needs is a bike mount! :P

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MakerDusk]

Bang on, it did nothing productive for so long that people forgot it existed. That and just typing on the start screen... If you know those two tricks, you can do things faster than you ever could before. At least I can until I hit the apps >_ (for every convenience gained, there has to be a detractor that neutralizes the gained speed... such is technology.)

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MakerDusk]

I don't need a tablet that can run x86 apps. Users don't give a flying shit about "x86" they just give a shit about having good apps to run. iOS and Android already offer that in spades

Why would anyone want to be able to run programs that tie into doing things other that wasting time? This one sounds unemployed, or in a low end job where he doesn't get to use a computer.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MakerDusk]

I've tried Office 365 on a pro with a type cover... It feels like a laptop. We've all used office on a laptop at some point, so there's really not much to be said there.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MakerDusk]

I'm in physics... I can't use a laptop for notes because there is no possible way to keep up with equations. Something like this would allow me to take notes, and still whip out python, fortran, or R as needed. With the ability to use it like an ereader for journals and those annoying 100 page pdfs that the profs send out. Touch screens on laptops are pretty much just a gimmick: try writing notes on them. Useless.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MakerDusk]

Sadly, the new powerpoint supports that via sharepoint.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lol: one corner good, 4 corners bad. Something tells me you were just too stupid to find the other three. Here's some advice to help you out: right clicking does things, the settings option in that bar thingy on the right hand side is for the app you're in, and try the windows key... it's actually used. If this isn't enough: consult a 4 year old.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[shutdown -p now]

There are some Win8 tablets with digitizer pens, though most of them are convertibles - e.g. Samsung ATIV (which, unlike x86 Surface, also has a cheaper Atom version).

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[bemymonkey]

Corners? What ******* corners? I'm using a tablet, so there's no mouse pointer. Do you know how hard it is to exactly hit one of the "hot corners" with your finger on a capacitive touchscreen? And why would you try to? There's nothing visually there to touch!

As for the start button... that pulls up the start menu... how the **** is that supposed to help?

Don't get me wrong - I can get around the system just fine. It just pisses me off that the UI is so unintuitive - if you don't figure it out accidentally look it up, how are you supposed to know "hot corners" exist? Swiping edges... WTF? And they're different in every app too... the settings charm for instance - being able to access the control panel from the settings charm ONLY if you're on the desktop.. Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[beelsebob]

Surface Pro is the best tablet that can run x86 applications. Show me another machine that is as thin, light, and powerful with a stylus. You can't.

The problem is that it isn't good at it, as the parent pointed out.

So I want to run an x86 windows application... What's that? I need to tap on a very small area to activate this button designed for use with a mouse? Crap. What's that? I need to hover over this item as I could if I had a mouse? Crap. What's that? I need to right click this item, as it was designed to work with a mouse? Crap.

Running x86 windows applications is not an advantage on a tablet.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[beelsebob]

The Surface has a place. 90% of the corporate world use x86 apps, good luck running those on any other tablet.

Good luck running them on the surface pro too, when you discover you can't actually click the tiny buttons, hover over things, or right click on things.

There's a reason those god awful windows XP tablets from years ago never caught on –it's because they weren't actually capable of running any of the software that "ran" on them.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, for $750! I think I'd rather pay the extra $150 for the Surface Pro with its vastly superior i5 and build quality.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[beelsebob]

Uh, what? Being able to play Crusader Kings 2 on a tablet is a huge selling point.

Unfortunately... you can't actually play it, because it's designed with a mouse/track pad/track point in mind, not a touch screen. As soon as you want to get your character sheet open, and try to right click on that portrait you're going to realise why this was such a terrible idea.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

undiscoverable, unintuitive UI (missing a function? Try swiping in or out from any of the four edges.... stupidest UI paradigm I've ever heard of)

I don't think Android or iOS are much better in that regard. With most apps you have to long-press in various parts of the screen to see if anything happens, or try swiping in various directions. Oh, look, A SECOND PAGE in the Android Market app!

The sooner the mobile app fad dies-down the better for UIs.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a prediction that Surface will battle and claw it's way to... 10% market share?

Bravo.. ingenious use of statistics.. you really outdid yourself.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[bemymonkey]

Oh yeah, that stupid 3km long wall of icons that extends indefinitely off the right of my screen in a jumble with no discernable order (and reorganizing the icons without a mouse takes about 10 seconds per icon - IF you're moving it to a spot that's immediately visible on the screen! If you want to move something from the end of the list to the front [so that it's visible right away when you press the start button] using a touchscreen, it's a big fidgety mess that takes even longer) and no subfolders... definitely a large start menu.

Oh wait, no, it's just a cluster**** of everything that's installed in a jumbled mess.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[caywen]

A device can only be really good at one thing. This is not a new principle to design but pretty much the fucking foundation of industrial design.

You seem so sure of yourself, evident by the unnecessary profanity. And yet many highly successful products both past and present betray your assertion.

MP3 + Video player => iPod Touch and its ilk
MP3 + Video player + Browser + Apps + Phone => smartphones
Passenger car + SUV => Crossover SUV cars
Game Console + Media Center => PS3, Xbox 360, soon PS4 and Xbox 4
PC + LCD monitor hybrids => All in one PC's, iMac
Compact Camera + Interchangeable lens => Micro 4/3 (e.g. Sony NEX)
Printer + Scanner + Fax => Printer / Scanner / Fax (duh)
Radio + CD Player => Boombox, FM Walkman
Power Screwdriver + Power Drill => Combo Power Screwdriver / Drill
Hammer + Crowbar => Pretty much any hammer you find today

and the list goes on and on and on. Pretty much every one of these carries with it compromises that can be lambasted by anyone inclined to do so. In all successful cases, the benefits match or exceed the compromise. Some of these examples are more enduring than others, but the bottom line is that compromised hybrid designs are a fine way to go about product design.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you are on slashdot. You only had to write "surface pro is shit" and then enjoy comments from friend that agree with you. Now there is #1.. #2...#3. Are you pretending there is some logical thinking going in at slashdot? No... It just a bunch of linux lovers stuck in 1995. Just write "windows is shit" and have a nice day.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[caywen]

This.

I've posted on this before, but I am using an Acer W500 with Win8, and have found the experience to be surprisingly productive. At night, I lie around browsing tablet style, and it's pretty much on par with any iPad or Android tablet for most things. Win8 is still appallingly crappy in some areas (I'm looking at you, Windows Mail), but that's a software thing, not a design / hardware thing. In the morning, sometimes I work from home, and so I plug it into my 1080p 24" LCD, keyboard, mouse, and am happily opening terminals, browser windows, and other tools. The tablet screen acts as a second monitor - that's cool, too. My scanner, printer, camera, external DVD, and every USB peripheral I have work perfectly fine.

OS team: Good job, thanks for the speed improvements, retaining great hardware compatibility, and decent stability.
UI team: Ha ha, you guys are funny. You're not fired.
Apps team: You guys are not even funny, so you're fired.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ShakaUVM]

You open your character sheet with a left click.

Right click is almost entirely unused in the game (only as a shortcut to immediately enter the diplomacy screen with someone).

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Barryke]

Mod parent up. If i could, i would.

I couldn't even be bothered to waste my time arguing with those haters. Glad parent took the effort!

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you've never heard of adjustable screen DPI or touchpads, both of which Surface has.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[beelsebob]

adjustable screen DPI

I use it day to day. The issue is that if you're running a desktop app on a tablet you have a choice – make the buttons big enough to tap on, but for no content to fit on the screen (because it wasn't designed to run on a tablet), or make content fit on the screen, but the controlls to small to use. By contrast, software actually designed for tablets does not have this problem, because it's UI is laid out in such a way that content is accessible despite big chunky controls. This also does not solve the hovering or right clicking issue.

touchpads

Again, I use one every day. The surface pro does not have one, it has a touch screen. One is available as a $150 optional accessory. If you're going to use it all day with the optional accessory attached then what you have is a screen with a keyboard and touch pad that fold up into it, we have a name for that, a laptop. We can already buy cheaper, lighter, smaller, better ones than the surface pro.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

From what you describe you could be using a Macbook Air with a 15$ stylus to write on it's trackpad, though if the area is not enough you could get an external pen+pad for the writing connected by USB. Also, you say you want it for "writing", but how do you cope with OCR for handwriting? I've never seen one work. Or you just happen to jot down things and keep them as images? If so, why not write on paper and make a photo with a phone? Their camera resolution is enough for handwriting.

Or perhaps you are conflating so many disparate and incompatible requirements to make the Surface Pro look like a viable product in the eyes of others? What kind of job you have that requires you to write on tablets and then plug them to an USB disk?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Sepodati]

Isn't that the point of Win RT? Everything available there has been designed for a tablet, no?

Re: Let the bashing begin!

[MachineShedFred]

I've seen this said before, and it's rubbish. If the new UI is just a glorified Start menu, why not allow the user to revert to the previous style of Start menu? XP did that. Vista and 7 did that.

Also, why do I want programs running in my start menu, moving things around and giving me seizures? I don't. And the "charms" off the right edge of something that I have to scroll through 8 pages of bullshit just to get to the settings and preferences for the computer? Great design choice there, instead of the right click it has been for about 17 years.

The biggest problem with Windows 8 is that you are forced into the new UI by Microsoft's hubris, and corporations are not going to spend untold hours retraining all their workers to use that piece of shit.

Even Apple made LaunchPad completely optional when they launched Lion, and they don't exactly have a long history of user choice; but they knew that replacing Finder with some iPad work-alike horseshit UI would be the death of Mac OS X.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, that does look like a somewhat "real" keyboard ... for $129.

Seriously, it's a powerful tablet computer with decent specs with a detachable keyboard. It's not a rip-off, but it is rather expensive. Once you add on the $129 price of a keyboard, you are in the price range of Apple and other reasonably high-spec laptops. So, if you really want a tablet this powerful for x86 stuff, yes, it's an okay deal. But the moment you want a keyboard or all you're doing is browsing the web or media, you're better off just getting a regular laptop or cheaper tablet, respectively. This thing is satisfying a niche market.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

don't worry your poor little head, windows 9 will be rushed to market to save the day, similar to how windows 7 saved us from a world of vista.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[thoth]

Tablets 15 years ago were massively prone to breakage, had awful touch interfaces, had awful touch hardware, and were generally bad at everything they tried to be.

How many people have you seen with iPads and keyboards? What do you suppose those keyboards are for, if not "office-y" stuff?

Hm, most of the time I see people with tablets, outside my group at work where we are evaluating them, is at coffee shops or the airport. (And if you're curious, we have 2 Surface RTs and probably a dozen or more iPads). As an informal guess, I'd estimate ~25% of those sightings are tablets with keyboards. This is all anecdotal and I'm not sure what numbers are in places like NYC or SF. Something more accurate might be the volume of sales for these keyboard addons, but I'm not sure where to dig that up

I myself own 2 tablets, a Nexus 7 and an iPad Mini, but don't have an external keyboard for either.

Anyway, my personal opinion is that having MS Office and/or x86 compatibility will not be a significant draw, due to the current prices. These things are competing against iOS and Android, both of which are cheaper, sell cheaper apps, and have an enormous library as well. x86 compat is literally Microsoft's only "advantage", so they'll be flogging that constantly.

For the $1000 a Surface Pro plus keyboard cover will cost, you may as well buy an actual notebook, especially when you are stuck purchasing desktop-priced x86 apps. On top of that, most (all?) current x86 apps do not remotely have a UI appropriate for a tablet, and that will need to be addressed immediately by Microsoft and/or developers, or the Microsoft's foray will limp along like a plane with all engines on fire, and eventually crash and burn.

You dont think having the full MS Office available for surface (and built in by default) will have an effect here?

In summary, no. Longer answer: maybe, if all x86 apps get revamped for tablet/touch UIs, app prices drop down to the new table-ecosystem pricing levels, and their hardware pricing drops by at least 25%. I may be horribly off, but this looks like a perfect storm of disappointment. Microsoft will avoid total failure by propping this up with cash infusions.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MightyMartian]

If I have to haul around a separate keyboard, it isn't a laptop.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

My $100 Android tablet has USB, an SD slot and HDMI. If that's really important to you, there are lots of Androids that offer it. I can also get it in just about any size. Mine is 7" but the same brand offers up to 11" for around $200. And there are dozens of hardware manufacturers making Androids. In the 80s there were a lot of different desktop Operating Systems. Most were tied to one brand's hardware. A complete solution. There was one OS though that ran on a lot of different brands of hardware. It'll be interesting to see if history repeats itself, judging by Android's growth of market share, I think it might.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

How odd, though, that you need a keyboard to make good use a touch screen device.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you spent more than 10 minutes playing with an RT?

I have to admit that I haven't. I played with it for 5 minutes, and then thought to myself now what? After struggling with the interface to find simple things (was my first win8 experience) I couldn't think of anything else to do with it and put it away. I guess I could have sat and stared at the live tiles for another 5 minutes...

To give them credit network printer setup was easy once I found the control panel. Also while I didn't like the attachable keyboard I assume that once you are used to it, it would be a plus. For me the only reason to buy one is if you need a better Office solution than the minimal apps that come with other tablets/phones.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[organgtool]

The thing you are overlooking is your needs aren't a significant part of the market.

How do you know that since this is one of the first serious contenders to offer these features in the post-iPad market?

A stylus and all that other stuff? If those were major selling points then Microsoft would have been successful with tablets say... 15 years ago.

All of Microsoft's previous attempts to make tablets were half-assed. Microsoft didn't make the hardware, so they couldn't offer a tightly integrated experience. And from the software perspective, Microsoft's previous attempts at tablets involved slapping a few shoddy apps onto an OS that wasn't designed for touch input. I'm not particularly enamored by Windows 8, but I have to admit that Microsoft's latest attempt at a tablet has a significantly larger amount of effort behind it and at least they are attempting to deliver an intriguing product that crosses the boundaries of laptops and tablets.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Lanforod]

Yep. Corporate webapps that require Java and/or Flash. Good luck getting those to run well on an iOS or Android device. My opinion is that some companies will realize that the pro is a viable replacement for the desktops, laptops, and tablets for everyone. Just need some sort of docking station for when at a desk to connect it to a full keyboard, mouse, and large screen or two, and perhaps wired ethernet. I suppose the display port and usb3 ports would be able to handle all that. If MS doesn't already have such a device, the first company to make a good one could make a killing on it.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

I've tried the Surface RT but not the Pro. The keyboard on the RT is good for what it is but it doesn't compare to a real keyboard.

The Surface Pro IS a laplet. The RT is a tablet.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

I don't need a tablet that can run x86 apps. Users don't give a flying shit about "x86" they just give a shit about having good apps to run.

I know you don't care about that. But don't say "Users don't give a flying shit" as if you're speaking for every user. *I* do. I know many other users that do as well. You might even be speaking for *most* users, but that doesn't lead to the conclusion that Surface Pro is useless for *everyone*, especially businesses, which have been ill-served by the current tablet offerings.

I used to work for a company in 2009 that supplied Tablet PCs to regional businesses. We sold to schools, hospitals, contractors, government, warehouses, construction.... this was back in the day of Tablet PCs before the iPad. They loved these machines, but I heard several complaints more than any other: weight, thickness, battery life, processing power, and cost. Notice none of what I listed has anything to do with touch optimized apps. Surface is half as thick, half the weight, half the price, twice the battery, 4x the power as some of these systems we used to sell. These same large corporate customers are going to be eating tablets like this up.

And the Samsung Galaxy Note supports the stylus in ALL apps, not just specially written ones... Apparently, you're not too hip on the tablet scene. It's thinner, lighter, cheaper, has longer battery life, 3G, and is designed for use with a stylus, etc.

I'm quite "hip" thank you very much. My first tablet was the Compaq TC1000 in 2003, so I've been using tablets of various makes and models for about a decade now. You might have missed where I said *powerful*. I thought I was among geeks here. With a core i5, Surface has more horsepower than any Andrloid or iOS tablet available. You cannot get away with blasting battery life but not admitting the tradeoff is a much much powerful processor.

I've used the Galaxy Note 10.1, and it was slow and laggy as hell, even with its quad core A9. Using apps side by side was basically useless. Maybe this has changed with the 4.1 update, as I haven't used it since, but it still doesn't change the fact the processor cannot compare with any 3rd gen i5. Add to that the low RAM and low res screen and the specs don't compare at all.

Second, I can tell you're not very familiar with stylus support in tablets. Windows uses semi-supervised machine learning to actually learn your own handwriting. You train it at first, then it learns over time your vocabulary and handwriting style. The Note 10.1 can pretty much only recognize cursive from my experience, and has a real hard time with my combined print/script handwriting. On my Windows 7 tablet I have probably 99% accuracy (1 in every 100 words wrong), which is better than I can say about my typing.

Windows also has a killer app for stylus input: OneNote. It's the bar against which I've compared every note taking application, and they all fall short. I won't get into why it's such a great app here (unless you really want to know), but it suffices to say OneNote alone makes the stylus a must have feature for a tablet.

USB drives and hard drives? What fucking century do you live in?? And pretty much everyone has a video out capability now

What century? You seriously think portable hard drives and USB drives are antiquated? What would you have me use? The "cloud"? Aside from the obvious security, reliability, and connectivity issues, USB drives and hard drives have much much higher bandwidth (USB 3.0 on Surface) and capacity/$.

As for video out, yes many tablets have this but not in combination with the other ports. Further, their implementation is often crippled, as with iPad; it requires a dongle to use, and when projected, doesn't change the aspect ratio of the display. When I connect iPad to a 24" 16:9 screen I get a 3:4 image, and all the apps are 3:4.

The best is when you play a 16:9 video you get a 16:9 video in a 4:3

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

lol, now show a list of all the hybrid concepts that have utterly failed. It's miles long. And keep in mind that some of your examples are pretty damn weak:

Hammer + crowbar: It's a mediocre crowbar. I've done a lot of demo work and a single purpose crowbar works much, much better.
MP3+Video player: It's just a media player. It's still serving one purpose.
Camera w/interchangeable lens: It's still designed for a single purpose: taking good pictures. Interchangeable lenses enable that.

Need I go on?

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[ahabswhale]

Thank you for your well reasoned response. Well done, sir.

Try not to create any robots that are going to take over the world.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

What you're missing is that there are different degrees of usability. Programs like Excel or yes, Quickbooks, which are very keyboard and data input intensive will not work well on tablet. But a program like Photoshop has many advantages on a tablet, even in its current form, such as being able to draw freehand with a pressure sensitive stylus. No, the buttons and interface are not touch friendly, but you'll have a stylus in your hand which is just as precise as a mouse. It's all about what you want the tablet for.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

Yes, I'll admit most people will have a difficulty using applications with tiny buttons. This is all solved with the stylus: it covers clicking tiny buttons, hovering, and right clicking.

There's a reason those god awful windows XP tablets from years ago never caught on –it's because they weren't actually capable of running any of the software that "ran" on them.

Yup, they were underpowered, overpriced ($2000+), thick as hell (1+"), and lasted about an hour if you were lucky. Surface Pro has none of these problems.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

I knew you'd be responding after I read what I wrote. I have a tendency to conflate Surface Pro and Windows 8 tablets in general. Surface Pro, the Samsung 700T, the Acer W700, and others like them all fill a niche that iPad, Kindle Fire et al. don't. As far as I'm concerned, The 700T and the Surface Pro are in the same class in terms of utility. The only reason I don't own one today is I like the smaller screen of the Surface. Otherwise it's perfect.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

What's that? I need to tap on a very small area to activate this button designed for use with a mouse?

Stylus.

I need to hover over this item as I could if I had a mouse?

Stylus

I need to right click this item, as it was designed to work with a mouse?

Stylus

Running x86 windows applications is not an advantage on a tablet.

It is if you want functionality not provided by any touch app. It's about options and flexibility. If I'm out in the field and I need a certain x86 application, I might be able to get by just fine with a 2lb, .5" tablet I can hold in my hand. If I have an iPad, I need to bring a second laptop (possibly thicker and heavier) and find a place to sit it down to achieve what I could do standing with a stylus. It won't work for every application, especially if it's keyboard heavy, but it will work for many.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck getting that 90% of the corporate world to swap out their $100 laptops for $1000 Surface tablets. You might... MIGHT get the extreme higher-ups to get one to play with, but I imagine that they would very quickly be ignored and never used by them.

For the remainder of the corporate world, there's no way in hell they will get the Surface. For one, every single corporation I've ever worked at has had custom, proprietary software needed. They SAY that anything that worked in XP onwards will work on the tablet... but honestly, do you really believe that there won't be ANY custom software problems? And there would be no problems with the mandatory system testing by the IT department before anything can be installed? Seriously? If so, you're as naive as you are stupid.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MightyMartian]

But you underline my point. Yes, some legacy programs may be partially usable in a tablet format, but even there the interfaces have been built for keyboard and mouse in mind. Going forward, software interfaces will be built to take advantage of the Windows 8 Surface and Windows 8 RT interface. But that undermines the whole idea of an x86 tablet as something special. Since, going forward, it's likely most developers will be writing software to run on both x86 Windows 8 and ARM-based RT, legacy x86 means squat. Claiming Surface is worth double what I could pay for a tolerably useful Windows notebook because it can run legacy x86 apps is a pretty empty claim in the long run. Nobody is seriously going to be running Win32 and pre-Windows 8 Win64 apps with any regularity on Surface.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[caywen]

Completely legitimate comment to make. And one which Microsoft and Intel would surely approve of.

Personally, I am just as interested in the Acer W700 as SPro. Its dock, I admit, looks like it was made by Hasbro, but otherwise also looks on par.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

Since, going forward, it's likely most developers will be writing software to run on both x86 Windows 8 and ARM-based RT, legacy x86 means squat.

This would be true if all legacy x86 applications were ported over to WinRT. This will of course never happen. I bought Photoshop CS4, and it works fine for me. Adobe will probably never update Adobe CS4 for WinRT. They might release a new product and want me to pay for that, but that doesn't interest me, because the software I already own is perfectly usable with a stylus.

This further applies to libraries that are x86 only. I have various libraries that apply to my field that are pretty old and are not released for ARM, and probably never will be. But I still need them. I have various back-end applications that use these libraries, and have no GUI of their own. They work in the background and work just as well on desktop, laptop, or tablet.

Finally, Intel's x86 processors are currently vastly more powerful than ARM offerings, and there's no indication ARM will ever contend for the performance crown. Even without x86 backwards compatibility, the sheer power of these processors is useful for someone like me who values computation time more than total run time. I'll gladly take the 50% hit in battery life if it means the computations I'm trying to perform don't take forever.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, of course you don't have to haul around anything, that is an option and a choice, there is no lockin and it can be used with any hardware.

Use it like a tablet when a tablet meets your needs, use it like a desktop when you need a desktop....
I can see myself using it with a docking station at home or work when I need to get work done, and without when I want a consumption device.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[MightyMartian]

Which still won't make using legacy x86 apps any easier to run on a tablet.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Missing.Matter]

You don't seem to be comprehending me. Paragraphs 2 and 3 in my previous post have nothing to do about GUI. Thus all the benefits of running a touch screen, having a pen, having a .5" thick device I can use while standing in the field are fully realized with an x86 processor. The more powerful processor alone makes running even tablet specific applications better.

Let me put it this way, in two weeks I will be making a tablet purchase. My specific need is as follows: I need to collect data in the field, then analyze it right after. A common task in my profession.

Do I:

A) Buy an an ARM tablet like (Surface RT/iPad/Nexus), rewrite or at least port all the data collection libraries, rewrite the front-end, and also lug around a x86 laptop for subsequent analysis.
B) Buy a Windows 8 tablet, use exiting libraries, just rewrite the front-end, and analyze data on it, leaving the second laptop at home.

Choice B is the obvious one for me. In hassle-saved alone the Surface is worth the extra money.

As for using legacy x86 apps, given the choice between using a legacy app built for mouse, or no app at all, I'll take the app built for mouse. The stylus isn't a terrible stand in for a mouse, and there is an actual utility gain. Maybe some day you can argue there is no utility because there are alternative touch GUI apps available, but you cannot make that argument today or for the foreseeable future.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have the touch cover, it's really no more to haul around. To me, it almost seems like its primary function is to be a screen protector and has the bonus of being a keyboard/touchpad because it's so light and thin.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

make the buttons big enough to tap on, but for no content to fit on the screen

That is an outright lie. I have my HTPC set to 200 DPI by default and there is absolutely no problem fitting or using content on a 42" 1920x1080 TV sitting 4 metres away from it. A tablet at arms length or closer isn't going to be any more difficult to work on. Actually it will probably be easier.

We can already buy cheaper, lighter, smaller, better ones than the surface pro

Such as? All of the other notebooks, netbooks, ultrabooks I've seen are thicker, heavier, lower specced, worse build quality and/or more expensive.

Re: Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

The user is allowed to revert to an archaic start menu if they want. See Classic Shell, Start8, Power8, Pokki, Startisback, etc. It doesn't matter where they comes from, just that they exist and work.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point about using a projection device, hadn' thought of that!

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[beelsebob]

Surface Pro: 64GB/4GB/ivy bridge i5 dual core 1.7Ghz/4 hour battery, $899 + $130 type cover – $1029
MacBook Air 11": 64GB/4GB/ivy bridge i5 dual core 1.7Ghz/5 hour battery, $999

And the MacBook Air is hardly the cheapest ultra book out there ;)

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

Macbook Air doesn't have touchscreen or pen input, it's bulkier, it's heavier and the screen is much lower resolution.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[scotjam]

90% of tablets not having features isn't trying to imply that they will have 90% market share

Aside from that, it could well end up with 10% share if they get it right. Business users. Microsoft office won't run on any other OS, and the tablet alternatives suck (I know, it's probably MS's fault they suck due to ever-changing standards, but that doesn't change the fact that for a business user, they suck).

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

But still, the Surface Pro has a kickstand and balances quite well with the keyboard out, PLUS it is thinner and takes up less room on the tiny desks alotted to classrooms these days.

Have you ever been in a college classroom, where the "desk" you speak of folds out from the side of the chair arm? Surface Pro all the way.

Re:Let the bashing begin!

[Anonymous Coward]

>Unfortunately for Microsoft, nobody has ever asked for a laplet

May be Bigfoot did?

Re:And?

[webmistressrachel]

And I back up that fine 1st with this - google is your friend - HP tx2500. Nothing new here. Move along.

Re:And?

[Rosyna]

It doesn't come with a hardware keyboard or Office (unlike the Surface RT)

Looking forward to this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly because work is buying me one.

Re:Looking forward to this.

[icebike]

Mostly because work is buying me one.

And quite frankly, that is the market that this tablet is aimed at. Everybody expectant it to be a dud. But I'm not so sure.
It may well take off where there is a need to run tightly integrated software that ties into corporate environment, but which is not so mainstream that it would attract lots of developers wanting to port it to RT, or it is so customized or so proprietary that there is simply no market for an RT port.

Of course, lots of C++/C# apps are source level portable to RT via a simple recompile. However not everything in the corporate world is written in those languages, or, the original coder has moved on, and (like most C applications) the application became unmaintainable for anything but emergency patches.

Re:Looking forward to this.

[symes]

If the pressure sensitive stylus works well then I will want one of these. I am truly fed up with all the paper wasted just so I can make temporary notes on a piece of paper. It will be interesting to see what integration with MS 360 offers, or whatever it is called.

Re:Looking forward to this.

[Ambassador Kosh]

This is the big thing. I would love a tablet that I can take real notes on. Especially one where I can enter mathematical notes.

Every tablet I have looked at has been very bad to taking notes on. They just don't have the accuracy required. This tablet even runs a full windows of windows which means I could take notes and still use applications like matlab and excel.

Re: Looking forward to this.

[inputdev]

I have to agree here as well. You can't write on an iPad as it is. I'm curious about the Galaxy Note series - anybody know how good the stylus is? Resolution or input rates? I think frame rates of apps are too low for handwriting, so the hardware will have to help. I'm thinking around mouse rates 1sample/8ms might be enough.

Re:Looking forward to this.

[shutdown -p now]

Of course, lots of C++/C# apps are source level portable to RT via a simple recompile.

Very few apps are, actually. Remember that most traditional desktop APIs are off-limits to third-party apps on RT (unless you unlock it, which is unsupported and can go away with any update). Yes, Store apps can run C++ and C#. But .NET for C# is a very trimmed down profile compared to full desktop .NET (heck, it doesn't even have System.Data anymore!), and C++ has the entire standard library working, but little else. If your app had any kind of GUI, you'll have to rewrite that almost entirely (unless it was in Silverlight - that can often be ported with relative ease, since the new XAML-based UI framework is basically Silverlight rewritten in native code).

Re:Looking forward to this.

[MakerDusk]

Amen to that. I'm in math and physics myself. I've been tied to notes on paper. They've added a lot to excel for us scientists as well. I don't want to ruin the surprise there ;) Everything you do in office is also easily shareable, so you can toss notes to those who missed them. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but onenote lets you tie in video and audio recording for lectures time indexed with the notes you take. It's supposed to be able to recognize your handwriting as well. For me, this will mean a searchable layer, since I won't trust it with my actual notes.

Re:Looking forward to this.

[bryan1945]

"Eat up Martha." :D

No time to comment

[Anonymous Coward]

OMG gotta go get in line for it!!!

Success story!

[girlintraining]

After the stunning success of the original Surface tablet, Microsoft releases its successor, codenamed "Rodents of Unusual Size".

Re:Success story!

[CohibaVancouver]

After the stunning success of the original Surface tablet, Microsoft releases its successor

The Surface Pro will likely be much more successful than the RT. It runs win32, win64 and Modern UI apps natively & seamlessly integrates with Active Directory - Key features for business that the RT can't do...

Re:Success story!

[MakerDusk]

As far as I know, the pro was just held back to appease the OEMs

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

HP Pavilion tx2500 Series

  We're sorry, this product is no longer available

Re:And?

[BLToday]

Except the HP TX2500 series were some of the crappiest laptops I've ever used. We bought 8 of them for the office and within 18 months half of them died. They were hot, the screens were dim, and the stylus was never accurate. Plus, it came with Windows Vista.

Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[Gothmolly]

At $LARGE_US_BANK we are only STARTING to roll Win7 out to the great unwashed. We still need IE6 for about half the bank's applications.

Saying that Win8 is for corporate America is just masturbation.

Re:Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[Holi]

Because your bank isn't using it, that means no corp will. Is that your point?

Re:Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[ahabswhale]

This is why I will never write code at a bank. The dullest environment ever.

Re:Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[mattack2]

So, that means your bank did stupid, browser-specific sites rather than using web standards.

Re:Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[Anonymous Coward]

Most big corps still use Windows XP and have a mixed Windows/UNIX environment. Do you really think they will switch to Windows 8 tomorrow?

Well - I have a nice bridge to sell you...

Re:Win8 != Corporate Infrastructure

[Anonymous Coward]

Errrrmmmm, and whose fault is that the standards are all broken?

I seem to recall that this might have been due to M$ doing their embrace,evolve and pervert act on web browsing.

It's not only Banks. Here in Switzerland I'm expecting my long awaited upgrade from XP to W7 and month soon at a 19k+ employer.

at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

[Joe_Dragon]

at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

Re:at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems like a perfectly good $300 computer, but I wouldn't pay $900+ for it.

Re:at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

[oodaloop]

4gb should be enough for anyone.

No no, don't get up. I can show myself out.

Re:at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

[Lanforod]

This is x86 right? As in, it can't address more than 4GB RAM anyways... until they release a x64 version of this, no point in going over 4 GB.

Re:at that price it needs at least 8gb ram

[Lanforod]

nevermind that. saw below it's actually running 64-bit... why does everyone call this x86... blah!

Not at those prices

[tuppe666]

It doesn't come with a hardware keyboard or Office (unlike the Surface RT)

At the prices quoted it does the Surface Pro does not come with a keyboard at all :) those are sold separately.

Re:Not at those prices

[webmistressrachel]

Wait, what, it doesn't come with a keyboard at all? Not even a touchscreen one for free?

Oh dear, look at that. The inevitable conclusion of the EU meddling with integral bits of the OS... don't forget, the Tablet Extensions were an add-on, not standard, before a certain date!

Re:Not at those prices

[cbhacking]

Oh, of course it comes with an on-screen keyboard; all versions of Windows have that even in non-touchscreen devices. Grandparent poster was talking about the Touch Cover and Type Cover, which are available but apparently not included.

Re:Not at those prices

[hresult]

Another DOA.

Re:Not at those prices

[helix2301]

I mean the surface is kind cool I saw one at the new Microsoft store my only complain it the tablets pretty heavy. Weightwise its kind heavy to be caring around. Now granted its still lighter then a laptop and a few books but still.

Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Joe_Dragon]

Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP? as in NOT in a VM,

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure about XP (which isn't compatible with UEFI- that standard didn't exist until 2005), but it can run the others.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Spy Handler]

why would you want to run Win 7 or XP on this thing? Win 8 Pro will run pretty much anything written for 7 or XP and you won't have issues with tablet hardware drivers. (win 8 is really win 7.1 + the metro tile start page which you can ignore or bypass)

You should be able to run Linux on it, Linux runs on everything!

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

"why would you want to run Win 7 or XP on this thing?"

So you don't have to deal with the shitty Metro aesthetic. Completely worth installing Windows 7 just to get rid of it.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[gmuslera]

Seem that the BIOS is locked to just MS products, no matter if all the hardware is supported under linux.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[nielsm]

Actually it's Windows 6.2 aka. "Vista with even more tweaks", but it's not like version numbers really matter much.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Gertlex]

"why would you want to run Win 7 or XP on this thing?"

So you don't have to deal with the shitty Metro aesthetic. Completely worth installing Windows 7 just to get rid of it.

It's a tablet... so install Classic Shell instead and live in the Desktop, while preserving touch and pen-stuff.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Barlo_Mung_42]

MS can't win. "Why is win8 so focused on touch!?!" and then "Why can't your touch tablet run XP!?!"

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Kaenneth]

Windows 8 is more 6.2 than 7.1.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 should be "Windows 7" and Windows 7 should be "Windows Vista SP3". Windows 7 was basically Windows Vista SP2 with a new taskbar. Windows 8 actually has a lot of under the hood security and performance improvements over Windows 7.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[shutdown -p now]

You're confusing ARM-based Surface with x86-based Surface Pro. All WinRT ARM devices are locked with no ability to unlock. All Win8 x86 devices can be unlocked from UEFI.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Zontar The Mindless]

Windows 7 was basically Windows Vista SP2 with a new taskbar.

Right. The fact that Windows 7 (unlike its predecessor) would actually stay up long enough to get something done with it was of relatively little consequence.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[MakerDusk]

Never trust an OEM, or listen to the sales person. Most laptops did not meet the specs to run vista at launch. You should have checked for yourself. Every christmas I go around tech stores with a bag of chips and a slushie for the entertainment. If you listened to one of those people when you bought your computer... well... all of /. looks down on you.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

My last laptop came with Vista SP1. I used it for over 3 years without a single incident of the OS crashing. I'd say that was pretty good.

Sounds like you've never even used it and are simply regurgitating the FUD you've been reading on anti-MS sites.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Zontar The Mindless]

You presume a lot, and you presume mostly wrongly.

If you were born after 1977, then I've been using computers longer than you've been alive.

In any case, I've seen Vista in (in)action on enough machines with plenty of horsepower to recognise it as completely horrid, even for post-2K Windows.

And just so you know, I shop for specs. Computer store salespeople hate me with a passion.

And I do not care what version of Windows comes with *my* computer, because Windows gets wiped and replaced with an operating system about 10 minutes after I get the machine home.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't seen anything in action and you haven't used it. You're a fucking liar and an idiot.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Zontar The Mindless]

The butthurt is really strong in you. Perhaps some counselling would help.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps an education would help you.

Re:Can it run linux? windows 7? Windows XP?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not fooling anybody, APK. Except yourself, apparently.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that it was a huge piece of crap, that would eventually overheat and die due to bad design.

Do better than Apple and Google

[Anonymous Coward]

Produce the tablet version of a a supercomputer, with 100 hours battery life and get arrested for breaking moore's law.

Not the same thing

[tuppe666]

Makes the Macbook air just as outrageous

...and it is. Except that Apple is desirable, but the top selling laptop on Amazon right now is the chromebook http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Laptop-Computers/zgbs/electronics/565108/ref=pd_ts_zgc_e_565108_morl?pf_rd_p=1306419382&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=2956501011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1RB1ZW709NBS28NH1KWN selling for a third of the cheapest surface.

Re:Not the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

It might be a third less because it uses a shitty ARM CPU, has half the RAM, one eighth the amount of storage space, no touchscreen, no pen input, no memory card slot, lower resolution and weighs more than the Surface Pro.

Re:Not the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. That must be why all of the content producers, businesses, engineers, architects, software developers, artists and musicians use Android tablets instead of Windows PCs. Oh wait...

Re: Not the same thing

[gig]

The correct comparison is:

- 1 Surface Pro
- 2 iPad 4â(TM)s
- 3 iPad minis

⦠all basically $1000.

And the iPad app platform is years ahead of Windows as far as touch, installation, low price.

For Work.

[tuppe666]

Mostly because work is buying me one.

...I'm sure I would not want to work on this all day.

Re:For Work.

[icebike]

Mostly because work is buying me one.

...I'm sure I would not want to work on this all day.

News Flash: Business learned long ago that there are different tools for different jobs. This is why you seldom see mail clerks riding among the cubicles on horseback.

Re:For Work.

[caywen]

I wouldn't want to stay in a coffee shop or library all day, either. Fortunately, where I *do* work, I have a 2560x1600 monitor and a nice ass keyboard and mouse.

I wouldn't want to work all day on a MacBook Air, either.

Re:And?

[webmistressrachel]

Install 7 then, it runs cooler. You can stop the FUD right now, I played Oblivion at native 18+fps on this, for a year and a bit!

Also, there's this thing called "calibration". It worked. Also, how long ago were they made? What does this add? We don't know how hot it runs, yet, or how reliable it is. All the logic behind the screen, in a traditionally hot place? Are you sure you agree with them that that's a good idea? We'll see.

Re:And?

[smg5266]

The screen on mine cracked 3 times. Thankfully I had been coerced into a Staples accidental damage warranty which replaced it the first 2 times, and by the third, they just gave me cash for the original cost of the laptop ($1200!). I went and bought the HP tm2. It's a successor to the tx2500, but has an intel core i5, discrete graphics card (albeit the weakest one made, but still), and a snazzy new (2 years ago) capacitive touch screen. It even had a fairly pain free linux install. Too bad HP's "successor" to the tm2 is an intel atom shitbook.

Works on my corporate network?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure? Mobile devices on my network needs whole hard disk encryption, a login, anti-malware, and security policies.

Do you really think a byod is going to work on the corporate network without an unacceptable level of security controls put onto it?

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[cbhacking]

In a word: yes.

Whole disk encryption: BitLocker. It's supported. Connecting to the domain or Exchange server will automatically enable it if the policies mandating such encryption are in place.
A login: No fucking shit, it's Win8, of course it has logins and supports password complexity requirements. You're logging in with your domain credentials, after all...
Anti-malware: Built into Win8, or you can use third-party if you prefer.
Security policies: Again, it's Win8 (Pro, though even RT supports security policies). Did you crack your head on something on your way to write this post? Go see a doctor; you're delusional if you think this won't be supported.

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong. No one is going to buy a 1,000 device out of their own pockets and then allow corporate security policies and encryption to be put on it.

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[Luckyo]

Workplaces generally provide working tools.

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[black3d]

You do realise it's a fully-fledged computer under the hood, don't you? It's not running a "tablet OS" like Android or iOS. It's running normal Win8 on a normal Intel i5. It's simply a laptop in tablet form. You can install whatever anti-malware, etc, you like. The one caveat is that you can't install any OS you like - the BIOS will make sure of that.

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[shutdown -p now]

You're wrong. No one is going to buy a 1,000 device out of their own pockets and then allow corporate security policies and encryption to be put on it.

I do just that thing (except my device is a Thinkpad laptop that cost close to $1500 back when I bought it). The trick is, you create two partitions - one for your own use, with your OS that's not joined to any domain, and another one that runs the corporate image, and is joined to the domain with all restrictions applicable. It's that second partition that is encrypted, and that will be remotely wiped if need be, but it does not affect my personal data.

Re:Works on my corporate network?

[XcepticZP]

UEFI Secure Boot is only applicable for Surface RT. The Surface Pro has no such limitations and you can install ANY OS you please.

You're welcome.

Coming Soon

[vencs]

Surface Home, Surface Enterprise, Surface Ultimate

---
Protest online. Save the planet!

Re:Coming Soon

[Anonymous Coward]

Would that translate into single touch, dual touch, and multi-touch support?

and..

[Anonymous Coward]

not a single damn was given.

(by anyone aside from MS's paid shills, that is, who will no doubt hail it as the second coming of Christ, all the while selling 4 units a day)

Just saying...

[Anonymous Coward]

>According to Microsoft

Link to pcmag...

What does it say....

[mark-t]

Every time I see the phrase "Microsoft Surface", I always think of the table computing platform now called Pixelsense. It's like I always have to do a mental double-take to realize that they are talking about a tablet.

I'm not normally adverse to keeping up to date with technology and lingo, so I'm unsure why, long after I learned that they had renamed it, I'm still always stumbling over that expression and initially associating it only with MS's table computing platform.

Sorry.... sorta OT... But I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm just getting too old to keep up with this stuff.

Re:What does it say....

[maxwells_deamon]

Microsoft marketing likes a term and seems to feel that they invested in the invention of the word and have to keep using it for other things when the original use goes out of favor.

Besides the table, they also used the term for touch screen applications on Windows 7 and Vista.

Compare to ...

[Rougement]

An iPad at $400 cheaper and a MacBook Air for only $100 more. I'm not sure, at this price point, what MS are trying to accomplish. It just reeks of a hurried "oh hell, we must release something to counter Apple' Well, here's your something.

Re:Compare to ...

[Barlo_Mung_42]

MB air is $100 more and doesn't even have a pen or touch?
I'd rather have the Surface Pro.

Re:Compare to ...

[Cinder6]

Apple user here.

Here's what the Surface Pro has over an iPad: Run desktop apps; ability to modify the OS as you see fit
Here's what the Surface Pro has over a Macbook Air: Touchscreen

Different tools for different people and different uses. I don't personally want a Surface (Pro or RT), and it certainly has some (pretty big) disadvantages, but that doesn't mean I can't understand what Microsoft is trying to accomplish. I think there's merit to their "Windows anywhere" goal, though it still needs some polishing.

Re:Compare to ...

[Rougement]

I suspect it's only a matter of time before Apple tie iOS and OSX together and it's laptops get touch screens. Retina touch screens at that. Another issue I have with these is that I have no faith that they won't be tomorrow's Zunes. At least an Air is going to stick around and be supported for a while.

Re:Compare to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Surface Pro at $100 less has no ethernet port or usb port or real keyboard? Can't plug in an optical drive or barcode reader or digital camera? What is it, some kind of expensive toy? Who needs that?

Re:Compare to ...

[Missing.Matter]

How clueless can you be? Macbook air has no ethernet port, and surface pro does have a USB 3.0 port. As it runs Windows 8 Pro it supports more hardware than the Macbook air including any optical drive, barcode reader, or digital camera you want to plug into it.

Re:Compare to ...

[CohibaVancouver]

An iPad at $400 cheaper

An iPad doesn't run corporate win32 and win64 apps natively. An iPad doesn't integrate with Active Directory for seamless access to network resources. An iPad only has a finger, not a stylus interface. iPad has no USB port.

and a MacBook Air for only $100 more

The Macbook Air has no touch interface and doesn't convert to a tablet / slate for easy use on an airplane in economy with the seat in front of you in full recline.

Re:Compare to ...

[cbhacking]

It actually goes a bit further than that, even: the inclusion of the USB port and the support for Client Hyper-V (admittedly, it's a bit short on RAM, but it should be enough to, say, virtualize a Linux system) makes this a much more versatile device. I'd say it's cheaper than the MBA, but that goes away when you add the Touch or Type cover for keyboard and trackpad.

Re:Compare to ...

[lexman098]

Don't forget this for 300 dollars less: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834131384

Re:Compare to ...

[exomondo]

An iPad at $400 cheaper and a MacBook Air for only $100 more.

So then i have to carry 2 devices and it cost me $600 more?

Re:Compare to ...

[Luckyo]

And my E-450 laptop cost me 350 euros. But just like all the products you listed, they're aimed at different market segments.

Re:Compare to ...

[exomondo]

I suspect it's only a matter of time before Apple tie iOS and OSX together and it's laptops get touch screens.

Because Microsoft has done that and are clearly raking it in as a result, so Apple should copy them.

Re:Compare to ...

[Barlo_Mung_42]

I see what your saying but I don't think the Zune is a good comparison. MS entered the market with Zune way too late, just as it was ending in fact because of the growth of smartphones. Tablets are going to be around for a long time. So even though they are late (to this generation, let's not forget tablet pcs) there is plenty of time for them to catch up with android. Apple isn't the main worry. They'll just keep doing their own thing no matter what. MS *can't* let android take over the majority of their oem market. If they fail (and they may) it will be for different reasons than why Zune failed.

Re:Compare to ...

[caywen]

Unlike the iPad, it also supports multiple users.

Like the iPad, it supports iTunes - except that it actually, like, runs it.

Re:Compare to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are pretty poor examples. Almost any optical drive, barcode scanner or digital camera that will work without drivers on windows would do the same on OSX.

Re:Compare to ...

[ChunderDownunder]

Windows 8 has been out for less than 3 months. A bit early to calling it a failure?

Intel have mandated touchscreens for their lastest Ultrabook spec. So all premium wintel laptops (>$999) will have touchscreens by Christmas.

This will drive down the cost where Apple customers will be asking why their macbook is the only $1000 laptop on the market without touch input. At which point Apple will announce a compatibility layer to run all one's favourite iPad apps inside OS X at WWDC 2014, along with the first macbook air with a detachable keyboard. At which point developers will marvel at the lower cost of entry - in being able to run Xcode on the same device you're targetting.

Re:Compare to ...

[Threni]

> I think there's merit to their "Windows anywhere" goal, though it still needs some
> polishing.

"Something called Windows, everywhere", you mean? Windows 7 on this phone, Windows 8 on that phone, Windows 8 on that laptop, Windows RT over there on that thing...

Re:Compare to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, the MacBook Air comes with an attached keyboard "for free" instead of costing an extra $129. :-)

Re:Compare to ...

[oldlurker]

Those are pretty poor examples. Almost any optical drive, barcode scanner or digital camera that will work without drivers on windows would do the same on OSX.

What? That was some twist to the conversation, look at this again:

Surface Pro at $100 less has no ethernet port

Neither do Macbook Air

or usb port

Yes it does.

or real keyboard?

Reviewers actually rate it as quite good, I haven't tried, have you? And you can of course add any external keyboard you want

Can't plug in an optical drive or barcode reader or digital camera?

Yes you can, all of that. As external (but that would also be the case with the Macbook Air

What is it, some kind of expensive toy?

Less so than Macbook Air it seems.

Re:Compare to ...

[exomondo]

Windows 8 has been out for less than 3 months. A bit early to calling it a failure?

Did I do that? I don't think I did.

At which point Apple will announce a compatibility layer to run all one's favourite iPad apps inside OS X at WWDC 2014, along with the first macbook air with a detachable keyboard. At which point developers will marvel at the lower cost of entry - in being able to run Xcode on the same device you're targetting.

That really doesn't sound like an Apple thing to do, although given that Jobs has passed and they have resurrected a couple of things he publicly panned (larger screen because 3.5" is the perfect screen size, 7" tablets are pointless) perhaps you're right.

Re:Compare to ...

[exomondo]

No, this strategy is based on the newer products (windows 8, windows phone 8 and windows RT) not the older 7 products, the core is the same Windows kernel and they all have the WinRT application platform, which makes sense.

Re:Compare to ...

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a typical drooling Apple shill. When proven wrong, they often start moving goalposts.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

HP makes shit quality computers. Also, you look like a dude.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

The TX2500 uses a Turion CPU...that's like Pentium-M level performance.

And Oblivion? Really? That game is almost a decade old. The fact that you only get a horrid 18fps in it shows how crappy that computer is.

I'm still a bit interested

[Overzeetop]

Panasonic's 20" tablet has certain major advantages for me, as I do architectural-like work. Still, pressure sensitive pen input (if high-dpi accurate) and a 2lb mark is nice. 4 hours life sucks, but it's not as bad as the 2 hours proposed for the panasonic.

The biggest draw for this is a machine that could replace both my iPad and my notebook computer (currently an 11.6" Acer Timeline). The ability to have a real OS and the ability to run real applications (Lightroom, AutoCAD, Bluebeam, Analysis software) is a major plus.

The shortcomings, beyond the middling battery life, include the limitation that you can only get 128GB. While that may seem like enough for a tablet, this is a working machine and really needs have an option to go to 256, if not 512, for serious road warrior data sets (or photogs on the go). And *micro* SD? Slow AND limited capacity. Hard to believe on a tablet this big that SD was a deal breaker in the real estate department. The lack of included keyboard is just money. I have Apple products, so overly expensive SSD and accessories are already commonplace.

Re:I'm still a bit interested

[Luckyo]

You may consider just getting an USB thumb drive for external stuff. Not the most elegant solution, but functional nontheless.

Re:I'm still a bit interested

[nojayuk]

The Pro's cardslot takes microSDXC cards. There are 64GB cards on the market for less than fifty bucks, 128GB are off-the-shelf but cost more and higher-capacity cards are on the way.

Re:I'm still a bit interested

[Overzeetop]

Fair enough...the last time I looked they were dog slow, but there are better options now. It'd still be nicer to have an SD slot - you can always adapt down to micro, but you have to carry a reader for a full sd.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Without a gpu, surface pro isn't going to do much better.

Functionally the same

[tuppe666]

It might be a third less because it uses a shitty ARM CPU, has half the RAM, one eighth the amount of storage space, no touchscreen, no pen input, no memory card slot, lower resolution and weighs more than the Surface Pro.

No its a third...as in you can but three of them for the same price as Surface. Pro. It comes with 100GB of cloud storage...and has a memory card slot. runs a lightweight OS [and can run Ubuntu too :). Other than touch-screen something I want...if I can get android compatibility, but that has been announced on the next chrome book there is embarrassingly little in it.

...but your right it is not exactly the specifications, but functionally very similar, and has advantages cost being the most glaring.

Re:Functionally the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Surface Pro can run any x86 operating system, meaning whatever Linux distro you want, including Android x86 or Ubuntu, if you really want. Microsoft has mandated that all PCs sold with Windows must allow disabling secure boot, thereby allowing you to install any OS.

The $999 Surface Pro has 128GB of storage. Even factoring in the 14GB that Windows 8 uses, it still has as much space as that Chromebook with its 16GB and 100GB cloud storage combined. SkyDrive is available too, which adds at least another 25GB of cloud storage, though I am not sure if they will offer more to Surface Pro customers and anyone using any computer can get the 25GB for free.

So sure, you can buy three underspecced Chromebooks for the price of one 128GB Surface Pro, but they will be severely limited in what they can do and what they can run by comparison.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Surface Pro has an Ivy Bridge Core i5 with an integrated Intel HD 4000 GPU. It's not very powerful, but it's much more powerful than the ATI HD 3200 in the TX2500.

Intel HD 4000 benchmark
ATI Radeon HD 3200 benchmark

According to Notebookcheck.net, the Intel HD 4000 pull 30+ fps in Mass Effect 3 at 1366x768, maximum detail with AA and 4X anisotropic filtering. They also show that it can get around 40 fps in Skyrim in low detail.

Any reason to mention ponies.

[tuppe666]

News Flash: Business learned long ago that there are different tools for different jobs.

That is not even remotely true, it generally buys thousands of identical large dull brand boxies, of the lowest specifications, and may or may not roll out a new OS or browser every 10 years...and to be perfectly honest would prefer working on one of those to that. I think business is the wrong market for this product.

Re:Any reason to mention ponies.

[dreamchaser]

You obviously have very little business experience. I've worked in several large enterprise environments and what you're stating is blatantly false in my experience. Typically there will be a standard desktop, a tower system, a couple of laptop models, and OS updates happen when ready, meaning once they've been certified to run said organization's software.

I already have clients rolling out Windows 8. I would not be surprised to see the Surface Pro sell reasonably well in the enterprise.

Re:Any reason to mention ponies.

[raind]

Last large place I was in all the equipment was not bought but leased, desktops, laptops, printers .....even telecomm;switches, routers.

Re:Any reason to mention ponies.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most REAL big organizations are at this moment in a testing stage to roll out Windows 7, but in majority still use Windows XP.

Really - I don't buy it for one second there are BIG organizations that are rolling out Windows 8. There's too much at stake, and a lot of corporate software has to be rewritten - even with a transition from XP to 7. Maybe some dodo's at the top get "special privileges" to run Windows 8 from the IT department, but for the overwhelming majority of the workers it is still Windows XP.

As an example - there are still organizations that are using software like Tivoli for remotely deploying, installing and service software that is tied to a user job "role" and profile. That whole infrastructure has to be adapted to make the transition to Windows 7. There is no way this carefully orchestrated transition will be disrupted by all of the sudden allow hundreds of untested Windows 8 enter organization-wide. Maybe (as stated above) a few will be allowed, but only for corporate dodo's and test purposes. In absolutely NO WAY there will be untested hardware and software allowed in a mission-critical environment.

So - maybe SMB will see some, but big corporations? No way!

Re:And?

[BLToday]

Calibration doesn't help much. The screen is very inaccurate on as you approach the edge of the screen. I'm probably off about 2 mm within 1 inch of the edge.

I'm sorry . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

but these folks at Microsoft just don't get it, do they?

They aren't much at designing any sort of software and now they have the hubris to tell us that they should be trusted to design hardware, too? Not on my dime!

Two of the last 4 OS releases of Windows have been complete turkeys (Vista and Windows 8), and now they've given us the first intentionally hostile UI ever sold in version 8.

People who are so bad at what they do should really consider stopping, you know?

Re:And?

[Gadget_Guy]

The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion was a 2 year old game when the tx2500 was released.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

Install 7 then, it runs cooler.

Can you still get 7 legally?

This could kill the Playbook

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously.

64 or 32 bit?

[jfdavis668]

Anyone know if it runs 32 bit or 64 bit Windows?

Re:64 or 32 bit?

[bmorency]

It is running 64-bit windows. http://betanews.com/2013/01/16/microsoft-surface-pro-arriving-very-soon-time-to-get-excited/

Re:64 or 32 bit?

[ChunderDownunder]

MS would be keen to become totally 64bit clean for Windows 9. Intel (aside from a few Atoms) and AMD migrated to x86-64 half a decade ago. Let IA-32 die already - it's nearly 10 years since the Athlon 64 came out...

[even if the machine I'm typing on is a P4 running ubuntu 12.10, I don't expect I'll be upgrading it to Windows 9!]

I'd be surprised if MS and ARM aren't working on AArch64, for a subsequent generation Surface RT, as we speak.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

And it ran like shit on a computer released two years later.

Re:And?

[sayfawa]

My tx2500 may be hot and loud as hell with a crappy OS. And yes, with a dim screen and inaccurate stylus. But it's still running, dammit!

Seriously though, there are better examples of good convertible tablets the OP could have come up with. Toshiba, Lenovo, Fujitsu all have had good touchscreens for years.

And if it's a slate form-factor that is supposed to be so special about the Surface, well, they're late. Samsung has had a decent slate since before win8. That rhymed.

Re:And?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like XBox 360s?

Re:And?

[Ocker3]

And it's a swivel-screen laptop rather than a flat tablet with a removable keyboard.

If you want a Surface competitor, look at the HP Envy X2 http://www8.hp.com/us/en/ad/envy-x2/overview.html

Re:And?

[hairyfeet]

And now we know the date we can all pop some popcorn and watch MSFT score a hat trick of fail, Win 8, Surface, and now Surface Pro.

They have already had to cut the order for Surface RT in half because the things are piling up, Win 8 is a failure yet do they listen to the public? Nope Ballmer is going full retard by building their own phones and PCs just so there can be NO doubt that Ballmer only knows how to copy Apple.

But simply ripping off Apple just isn't gonna work, Windows 8 is a fundamentally broken UI and is so user UN-friendly that you need a Win 7 PC to Google how to use the Win 8 PC, and folks just aren't gonna put up with it. I support a lot of SMBs and not a single one has expressed any interest in Win 8, not the OS, not WinRT, and not Surface Pro, they are sticking with Win 7 for their X86 needs and using an Android or Apple tablet when they need that level of portability.

Never before in all my years in tech have I seen a company just completely ignore all the indicators and throw money away like that, MSFT does not have a single positive indicator with Win 8, not the desktops and laptops, not the phones and the tablets, seriously how much money does Steve Ballmer have to take a match to before the board wakes up and fires his dumb ass? I think Forbes need to name the MSFT board the worst board to go with Ballmer's worst CEO as they obviously are asleep at the wheel.

Re: And?

[MikShapi]

Runs fine (uber-res, all bells and whistles on) on myacbook air.
Then again, 2.5 lanes of PCIe 2.0 coming out of its side might have something to do with that.
Never mind the absence of a high-end surdace model (i7/8GB), The surface pro has just one PCIe worth of grown up IO coming out the side. Nice... But sub-standard.

Microsoft can do better in a showcase reference model the OEMs are expexted to copy.

Subject and comment the same? Deja-vu!

[Anonymous Coward]

Subject and comment the same! Deja-vu!

Re: And?

[Anonymous Coward]

You really don't know what you are talking about. What the hell does 2.5 lanes of PCIe have to do with anything. Surface Pro and latest Macbook Air use a third generation Core i5, which has a GPU on die. The bandwidth allocated to the GPU would be on the order of PCIe 16x. Besides, bandwidth is only useful if you have a GPU that can really use it and that ain't the integrated HD 4000 in either one of them. And of course a game released in 2006 will run fine on a Macbook Air or Surface Pro. What does that have to do with the TX2500?

Learn how to read before posting.

Re:And?

[ozmanjusri]

I'll stick to my Compaq Concerto thanks.

2 pounds? A whole 0.9Kg?

[Anonymous Coward]

That will fly! Like bricks in to water! Hahaha.... I bet as well those units will get very hot very early after switching them ON.

Re:2 pounds? A whole 0.9Kg?

[Holi]

Actually, every review I have read has said it stays quite cool. But what do I know, I just went around and did some research instead of spouting off complete nonsense.

Re:And?

[Barryke]

If you want a Surface competitor, look at the HP Envy X2 http://www8.hp.com/us/en/ad/envy-x2/overview.html

Not even close. The HP Envy specs:
- CPU is Atom (Surface Pro is 3th generation i5)
- Resolution only 1366x768 (Surface Pro is 1920x1080)
- SSD only upto 64GB (Surface Pro is upto 128GB)

I am looking for a Surface Pro clone, more specifically a 16"+ laptop with 2560x1440 resolution, with touch and (a proper, precise, pressure sensitive) pen, and 250GB+ SSD, and i5 or better.
If anyone knows of anything that has at least the resolution and pen, i'm grateful.

Re:And?

[ByOhTek]

HP...

Never again. Their business end stuff may be good, but their consumer grade stuff is cheap low grade crashy garbage.

Re:And?

[RaceProUK]

Install 7 then, it runs cooler.

Can you still get 7 legally?

Even with this, I'm still not sure...

Re: And?

[samwichse]

Miak? I bet you didn't even think I could find it this time of year.

Digitiser comparisons

[nojayuk]

The Galaxy Note stylus has a tip diameter of 6.5mm giving an effective resolution of 4dpi with one level of pressure sensitivity (on/off). The Surface Pro's stylus (a Wacom knockoff design) has a resolution of 600dpi with 512 pressure levels plus, if I'm reading the specs right, pen angle and tilt sensitivity included.

Wacom's screen/digitiser system of a similar size, the 12-inch Cintiq 12WX costs about the same as a Surface Pro but it's not tablet-portable, it doesn't have a complete PC underneath it and the Cintiq's screen is only 1280 x 800, not full HD like the Surface Pro.

Re:Digitiser comparisons

[ahabswhale]

Wow, you may have actually found a useful niche for the Surface Pro. Thanks for the info.

Re:And?

[macromorgan]

HP...

Never again. Their business end stuff may be good, but their consumer grade stuff is cheap low grade crashy garbage.

...with digitally signed firmware that prevents you from swapping out hardware to change the crashy garbage nature of it all. Fuck HP.

Re: And?

[macromorgan]

Miak? I bet you didn't even think I could find it this time of year.

Only a mother could love that comment.

One thing? Like a Claw hammer?

[nuggz]

A claw hammer is very good at being a nail installation device and a pry bar.

Those are two different tasks.

Re:One thing? Like a Claw hammer?

[ahabswhale]

The pry bar on a hammer is really only good for removing nails and minor demo work. You need a true pry/crow bar to get real work done. I say this as someone who has spent a lot of time doing demo work.

Re:And?

[ByOhTek]

Fuck HP.

No thanks, it's chafe my willy, and probably give me a DTD (digitally transmitted disease).

I predict.

[Holi]

That around 90% of the comments here will be from MS haters coming to bash something they have yet to see. For reasons they can only poorly describe.

Re:And?

[Holi]

Mine is running fine. But yeah the 1st gen XBox 360s had a design flaw. But MS resolved it where as HP just discontinued it.

Re:And?

[Fritzed]

Not even close. The HP Envy specs:
- CPU is Atom (Surface Pro is 3th generation i5)
- Resolution only 1366x768 (Surface Pro is 1920x1080)
- SSD only upto 64GB (Surface Pro is upto 128GB)

I am looking for a Surface Pro clone, more specifically a 16"+ laptop with 2560x1440 resolution, with touch and (a proper, precise, pressure sensitive) pen, and 250GB+ SSD, and i5 or better. If anyone knows of anything that has at least the resolution and pen, i'm grateful.

- CPU is Atom (Surface Pro is 3th generation i5)

3th

I'm not going to correct you.
I just want Thirth to be a word.

We're going to buy a bunch of these

[Baldrake]

We've been looking to convert one of our in-house applications to a touch UI. This allows us to continue using Visual Studio and C#. We don't care about desktop or Metro. Our app will run full-screen, so users won't see anything that's under the hood.

Sure, we could rewrite the whole damn thing for iOS or Android, but why?

Windows a weak brand

[tuppe666]

The correct comparison is:

- 1 Surface Pro

...no the correct comparison is *never* an Apple product.

Quickoffice/Google Docs

[jaygatsby27]

The Ipad just got a lot more business friendly with the work of Google Docs and their acquisition of Quickoffice. i have to say, I would have considered buying a Windows tablet before, but with the Quickoffice app, I have most of what I need on the Ipad. Thanks to Google.

An excellent design that meets all our needs

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the people you echo, you speak from a position of treasured ignorance. Until you have owned and used one, your opinion is worthless.

I bought my girlfriend a Surface RT for Christmas and she hasn't put it down since. It's a hit. She loves it. Your opinion is pure speculation. I actually put one in the hands of a user, and what do you know, she likes it. Since her children have Android and Apple tablets and phones of all sizes, I find it very telling that the Surface is the only one she will use.

I was considering buying a Surface Pro, but the workstation on my desk is very satisfactory and my girl's Surface meets our needs when we vacation, so we don't really have a need for it. For travelling infotainment it is extraordinary, fast booting, silky smooth to use and trivial to tether to my phone when there isn't a public access point, with battery life more like a mobile phone than a notebook.

At the office it's another matter. My workstation there is lame and I would be ecstatic if they replaced it with a Surface Pro.