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Surface Pro: 'Virtually Unrepairable'

An anonymous reader writes with a link to an article at Wired with some harsh words for Microsoft's new tablet: "The Surface Pro is not a repair-friendly machine. In fact, it's one of the least repairable devices iFixit has seen: In a teardown of Microsoft's tablet-laptop hybrid, the company gave it a rock-bottom score of just one — one! — out of 10 for repairability, lower even than Apple's iPad and the Windows Surface RT."

418 comments

  1. Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nobody repairs tablets.

    1. Re:Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nuh uh! All 10 surface pro buyers are furious!

    2. Re:Yawn. by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And it is high time someone pointed out how stupid that is.

    3. Re:Yawn. by tripleevenfall · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be special about Surface, but people only appear to dance with them. I could see a lot of screens getting broken.

    4. Re:Yawn. by Bill+Hayden · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nuh uh! All 10 surface pro buyers are furious!

      I was confused until I realized you were using binary. Good one!

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      Protect your browser with the Force Safe Search add-on
    5. Re:Yawn. by guttentag · · Score: 5, Funny

      Nobody repairs tablets.

      Historically this is true. The makers of the Rosetta Stone knew this would be the case, so they introduced redundancy so we could still retrieve the information even of part of the tablet broke. They wrote everything three times! From what I understand, the Surface Pro is stuffed with lots of redundant code for the same reason.

    6. Re:Yawn. by ciderbrew · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm teaching my kid how to count binary on his fingers. The number 4 is bad!

    7. Re:Yawn. by pushing-robot · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A sealed case isn't a huge deal in the case of the iPad or decent Android tablets, since there are no moving parts, no particularly hot-running components, and a top quality battery that should last for several years.

      But the Surface Pro isn't like that. It's a notebook, complete with full OS, SSD, fans, and a powerful CPU, crammed into a tablet form factor.

      What happens when that SSD starts failing from the heavy IO load of desktop software? Or one of the fans blows a bearing?

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    8. Re:Yawn. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      And it is high time someone pointed out how stupid that is.

      ...preferably by taxing it.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    9. Re:Yawn. by volxdragon · · Score: 1

      Damn it, used up my mod points earlier today - nice one!

    10. Re:Yawn. by Lumpy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "What happens when that SSD starts failing from the heavy IO load of desktop software? Or one of the fans blows a bearing?"

      you throw it away and buy a new one.

      Do you think microsoft expects anything else?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    11. Re:Yawn. by Jhon · · Score: 2

      "What happens when that SSD starts failing from the heavy IO load of desktop software? Or one of the fans blows a bearing?"

      You realize that you are only renting the device at a cost per month of it's purchase price divided by the number of months you've had it. Which will probably be inversely proportional to it's actual use.

      The GOOD new is that if you don't use it, the cost per month will be near zero! CHEAP!

    12. Re:Yawn. by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      It should be pointed out that not only does the Surface Pro have an SSD, it has a standard form factor mSATA SSD, the kind you can buy at retail. The kind you even find in small form factor desktops like a Shuttle XPC.

    13. Re:Yawn. by MrEdofCourse · · Score: 5, Funny

      "What happens when that SSD starts failing from the heavy IO load of desktop software? Or one of the fans blows a bearing?"

      you throw it away and buy a new one.

      Do you think microsoft expects anything else?

      Yes. I expect them to tell me that I have to buy all new software as well.

    14. Re:Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You shouldn't teach. It's 2 in binary. These Microsoft posts are getting dumb.

    15. Re:Yawn. by unixisc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fingers are for decimal. For binary, they should use hands.

    16. Re:Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      132 is worse.

      And 1023 is pretty bad if you suddenly need to smell one of your thumbs.

    17. Re:Yawn. by Patent+Lover · · Score: 2
    18. Re:Yawn. by Nyder · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be special about Surface, but people only appear to dance with them. I could see a lot of screens getting broken.

      The thing i got out of those commercials was how much the screen was smudged. You are shooting a commercial and you can't clean the smudge prints of the screen? Seriously? Why do I want a laptop that is dirty? Bad enough a cell phone screen gets smudged up, but dang, a laptop (yes, I know they are tablets, but lets be real, with the fucking keyboard cover, it's a laptop. With finger smudges all over the screen.)

      --
      Be seeing you...
    19. Re:Yawn. by adamstew · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem is getting to the SSD. It took the folks at ifixit, professionals who do this kind of thing day-in-and-day-out, over an hour to even take the cover off to get to the inside of the machine. It required a heat gun and a tool to separate the black-tar-like adhesive. They said it was a new record on how long a device took them to gain access to it's insides.

      Then you have to remove more than 50 screws to get to the underside of the main board to be able to remove the SSD.

      As part of their removal process they said that the majority of people who decide to take apart their surface will likely break it because there are four cables that surround the inside perimeter of the display and that you will cut one of them unless you are extremely careful.

      And even once you take it apart, you still have the challenge of putting it all back together again. Since you've now broken the adhesive that goes around the outside, you would then have to scrub it all off from the complete perimeter of the device, obtain new adhesive, and apply it again.

      No... this is not a repair that 99.9% of people could conceivably perform in their own home.

    20. Re:Yawn. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Your indoctrination is almost complete brother!

      Have you started foaming at the mouth towards apple users and linux users yet? If not, please return to the ministry of enlightenment for more treatments.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    21. Re:Yawn. by adisakp · · Score: 1

      Nuh uh! All 10 surface pro buyers are furious!

      FWIW, Microsoft bashing aside, MSFT is claiming that the Surface PRO sold out. Now maybe they only manufactured 10 of them... LOL... We won't know what "Sold Out" actually means until we get actual sales figures.

    22. Re:Yawn. by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      At the price they sell it for, you would definitely want it repairable.
      This trend of having expensive eqipment that is intended to be disposed in a landfill like a razor blade is ridiculous.

    23. Re:Yawn. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You also need a complete new set of certification courses.

    24. Re:Yawn. by Guspaz · · Score: 3, Informative

      Right, I was merely pointing out that while they made the thing impossible to maintain or upgrade (and how the hell are you supposed to get inside it to clear the dust off the fans/heatsinks?), they're using bog standard notebook components. A real tablet would have soldered the NAND chips to the motherboard. Heck, even the Mac Air have a custom form factor SSD in order to save space in the small chassis. The Surface Pro doesn't even do that, it has a full sized mSATA card in it.

    25. Re:Yawn. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Expect Microsoft to make it much easier to get at the SSD in future revisions. Not for the benefit of customers, for the benefit of their repairs department.

      Apple made the same mistake years ago with their laptops. You had to remove the motherboard just to replace the HDD, and the HDD was the part most likely to fail. Later models made the HDD much easier to get at, along with RAM and the power socket (until it was replaced by magsafe).

      The Surface Pro is too expensive to just throw away, MS will want to fix them to cover warranty claims (which are a minimum of 2 years in Europe).

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    26. Re:Yawn. by gtall · · Score: 1

      That would be the registry of enlightenment.

    27. Re:Yawn. by vux984 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The HDD was a spinning disk. The SSD aren't. Are they still the most likely to fail component?

      The only moving parts and likely failure mode I see would be a problem with the fans and/or the vents getting clogged.

      If they used high quality fans they shouldn't be an issue; as they are FAR less sensitive than hard drives.

      Going to be interesting to see. Kind of funny though to see everyone fall over themselves about the 'perfection' of the ipad being a seamless glass/metal tablet... and then make a big deal out of the Surface Pro not being repairable when emulating the same design.

      The ipad isn't exactly DIY repairable either.

      And I think in most cases 'broken screen' is going to be number one failure, and that's not usually going to be covered by warranty and will usually merit replacing the device any way.

    28. Re:Yawn. by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I'm not exactly sure what is supposed to be special about Surface, but people only appear to dance with them. I could see a lot of screens getting broken.

      Yeah. I don't dance, so the device is probably not for me. Oh well.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    29. Re:Yawn. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      In the olden days it was the registry, but the holy gates has left us, so now it's the ministry as we must spread the embrace of the one true OS.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    30. Re:Yawn. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Apple made the same mistake years ago with their laptops. You had to remove the motherboard just to replace the HDD, and the HDD was the part most likely to fail. Later models made the HDD much easier to get at, along with RAM and the power socket (until it was replaced by magsafe).

      And then they splattered that against the wall and soldered every component onto the motherboard including the battery which is only likely to last a year or two.

    31. Re: Yawn. by Rational · · Score: 1

      This is a waste of space and weight on a device you aren't supposed to take apart or upgrade.

      --
      "Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
    32. Re:Yawn. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The HDD was a spinning disk. The SSD aren't. Are they still the most likely to fail component?

      Looking at failure rates it would seem so. HDD/SDD, power supply and RAM seem to be the most common points of failure.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    33. Re:Yawn. by bkcallahan · · Score: 1

      Makes me want a mod category "Even Funnier"

    34. Re: Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the Good olden days it was the INI. Ah, the good old days...

    35. Re:Yawn. by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Time to teach them endian-ness

    36. Re: Yawn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had an original iPad since it became available and the battery is working fine. Nary a problem. Just saying.

  2. It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sadly more and more devices are like this now. Apple seem to have popularised it and made is acceptable and other companies seem to be continuing the trend.

    1. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      There were many things that said 'This unit contains no user serviceable parts' long before apple came along

    2. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly more and more devices are like this now. Apple seem to have popularised it and made is acceptable and other companies seem to be continuing the trend.

      And yet again Apple is at the root of all evil....

    3. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Sadly more and more devices are like this now. Apple seem to have popularised it and made is acceptable and other companies seem to be continuing the trend.

      Microsoft's tablet is unrepairable BUT IT'S ALL APPLE'S FAULT!!!

    4. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Get used to it, been that way since Genesis.

    5. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, popularizing is the same thing as inventing. Congrats on your lack of basic reading comprehension skills.

    6. Re:It's the future... by telchine · · Score: 5, Funny

      Get used to it, been that way since Genesis.

      Leave Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins out of this!

    7. Re:It's the future... by Desler · · Score: 1

      They didn't popularize it, though. It was already popular long before they made an iPhone or iPad.

    8. Re:It's the future... by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No USER serviceable parts is a far cry from NO REPAIRS POSSIBLE AT ALL.

      A: someone can repair it.

      versus

      B: NO ONE can repair it.

      BIG DIFFERENCE

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    9. Re:It's the future... by kthreadd · · Score: 2

      Sadly more and more devices are like this now. Apple seem to have popularised it and made is acceptable and other companies seem to be continuing the trend.

      Apple devices are often repairable, what they are often not is user-repairable. They will gladly offer things like battery replacements, basically at the same price for what a standalone battery would have cost you. If you ever have to replace it then it's a little bit of more work, and in return you get more battery volume and more battery time.

    10. Re:It's the future... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      This is also a side effect of miniaturization. As things get smaller, the ability to be user repairable gets harder. Take AM/FM radios for example. When radios were the size of small appliance, a consumer with the right tools could fix things. When they could be carried on a shoulder, it became harder. When they can be carried in your pocket, there is very little that can be repaired. I took apart one of these small ones. There was a single logic board with a few chips and enough space for a battery.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    11. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but Mike was a Mechanic. He could repair anything.

    12. Re:It's the future... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 4, Funny

      I could feel this trend coming in the air tonight.

    13. Re:It's the future... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 2

      I've used a lot of iDevices, and in my experience battery replacement isn't necessary. By the time your battery is suffering, the device is up for replacement.

    14. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's how it starts, then the next day it's NO ONE can repair it.

    15. Re:It's the future... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's also worth mentioning that "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" is frequently code for 'There's AC power at local grid voltage and/or a beefy inverter in here, don't fuck with this unless you know enough to know that this warning isn't meant for you'.

      It's much less common to see the warning on devices powered by external DC supplies, especially now that cold cathode backlights seem to be giving way to LEDs. Such devices are frequently less likely to actually be user-serviceable in any useful way(given that AC PSUs are, by necessity, frequently built from pretty chunky components that you don't even need sharp eyes to rework, while low-voltage DC gear seems to get smaller every year); but that specific phrase mostly seems to show up when there is a shocking surprise available inside.

    16. Re:It's the future... by nabsltd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We all understand that Apple has convinced people they always have to have the most shiny new thing, and so batteries don't have time to wear out.

      For the rest of us, though, many parts of devices need replaced (batteries, cables, cases, etc.) long before the useful life of the device is up.

    17. Re:It's the future... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about trading it in when the next version comes out. I skip many generations of things. But, for example, there are plenty of iPhone 3GSs out there which are still doing fine on the original battery. By the time it totally conks out, I'll probably be able to just replace it with a 6.

    18. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mike and the Mechanics can fix anything...

    19. Re:It's the future... by Bo'Bob'O · · Score: 1

      Considering these parts include fans, which cleaning are a part of regular maintenance, it's bordering on obscene that one would be expected to have to take your computer in for what would become a fairly expensive repair just to keep the machine from overheating.

    20. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet again, a fanboy blindly defends even their most egregious practices.

      What makes Apple so bloody special that their 'egregious practices' have to be dragged into every unrelated discussion on this forum and debated ad nauseam? This is an article about a MICROSOFT TABLET, it has SHIT ALL TO DO WITH APPLE!!!

    21. Re:It's the future... by DarwinSurvivor · · Score: 1

      This may surprise you, but just because a newer model is available doesn't mean a device is no longer useful.

    22. Re:It's the future... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      If only other companies would copy Apple with this:

      http://www.apple.com/recycling/

      where you can return just about any device they've made in the last 10 years. For credit, if it's worth something.

      Including other manufacturer's computers.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    23. Re:It's the future... by MouseR · · Score: 1

      The rest of you have crappy hardware that require new batteries or repairs.

      Nearly 3 years running, my iPad 1 still does 10h in heavy WiFi usage, including videos.

    24. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The Samsung Blackjack II . Damn near impossible to open without destroying it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    25. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      I can fix anything surface mount. It's actually easier than through hole. Just because you dont own the proper tools does not make it "impossible"

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    26. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Actually most 3GS's are doing fine on the battery. and I know of a few still in use iphone 3's that are also still happily going all day on a single charge... The "cant replace the battrery ZOMG" statement is the stupidest one ever made by apple haters.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    27. Re:It's the future... by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      No, no, you idiot, he was talking about Sega.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    28. Re:It's the future... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Love me some SMT. All you need is a good heat gun, oven, or even a cold-solder tool.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    29. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i saw what you did

    30. Re:It's the future... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      We all understand that Apple has convinced people they always have to have the most shiny new thing, and so batteries don't have time to wear out. For the rest of us, though, many parts of devices need replaced (batteries, cables, cases, etc.) long before the useful life of the device is up.

      Maybe for Wi-Fi-only devices, but my experience has been that cellular service providers start moving capacity away from older cell services long before the batteries give out. My original iPhone's battery is still pretty close to its original capacity, but AT&T ripped out much of their 2G capacity in favor of 3G a couple of years ago, and ever since then, it had been dropping calls several times per day. I'm now on Sprint with an iPhone 5.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    31. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are not user serviceable because they are hideously complicated, and you can break it by tilting a milimeter sized tab to far to the left. Also, half the equipment is held in with glue to simplify construction.

    32. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all understand that Apple has convinced people they always have to have the most shiny new thing, and so batteries don't have time to wear out.

      For the rest of us, though, many parts of devices need replaced (batteries, cables, cases, etc.) long before the useful life of the device is up.

      By the time the original battery dies, after at least 2 (probably more like 3) years, you're probably not getting software/security updates, so the useful life of the device is up.

      (And, if anything, that goes double for handset makers other than Apple, so don't start.)

    33. Re:It's the future... by eek_the_kat · · Score: 2

      Manipulating obsolescence has been around as long as consumerism. People always want the latest and greatest.. cars, video cards, televisions, digital cameras, Barbie dolls, clothes, PCs, even things like washing machines.

      Just look at how much hoopla and money goes into events like CES and the Detroit Auto Show.

      Having "The New XYZ" is an American status symbol. It goes back many many decades. "My Dad has the new Caddy, not last years crusty model like your Dad!"

    34. Re:It's the future... by thunderclap · · Score: 1

      I could feel this trend coming in the air tonight.

      Hold on
      I've been waiting for this moment, all my life, Hold on
      Can you feel it coming in the air tonight, Hold on, Hold on

    35. Re:It's the future... by djrobxx · · Score: 1

      Get used to it, been that way since Genesis.

      Was the Master System really that much more repairable?

    36. Re:It's the future... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Love me some SMT. All you need is a good heat gun, oven, or even a cold-solder tool.

      And, of course, a supply of the replacement part. When that part is a BGA FPGA or ASIC made specifically for that device, and unavailable from any source other than the manufacturer who won't sell you one, or contains code specific for that application that isn't open source, you might be able to get the old one off without destroying the board but you ain't gonna fix nothing.

      We just had a radio break. Sent it to the local radio shop. They said the radio was in almost perfect condition (wear and tear), but they had to send it to the factory to repair it. In this case, "no user or repair shop serviceable parts inside".

    37. Re:It's the future... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      So when the cost of hiring someone to repair something, keeping an inventory of spare parts, a warehouse to do it all in..... is more than the cost of making a new one, why would they spend more money to make it repairable?

    38. Re:It's the future... by viperidaenz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Go for it, hot shot. Replace that custom ASIC. I'm sure Digikey will have it.

      Replace that micro with the part number ground off. I'm sure Digikey will have that too, with the custom firmware already flashed too!

    39. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actively used my Sony Ericsson V800i flip which lasted about 6 years (~2005 to ~2011). The only reason why I replaced it was because the flip hinge was wearing out (it wouldn't lock shut, or completely open) -- the electronics were still fully functional. I played 3D games, strategy games, and a whole bunch of other things on it up to when I retired it. It even had 3G speeds, video conferencing and MMS!

      But hey, there's no problem buy a $600-800 phone and not using it at all! Consider that batteries tend to drop about 15-20% of their battery life per year even if you never use them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Disadvantages). It can be more if you use it a lot. You've had it for ... 3 years now? That's a 50-60% drop in useful battery life, which either means you're always near a charger, running around with a dead battery, or just not using it. Incidentally, having a degraded battery means you're more likely to keep the charge at 100%, which in turn degrades the battery even faster.

      And yes, the V800's battery would give out really quickly even with it's small screen after 6 years. If the flip hadn't screwed up, I seriously would have considered just replacing the battery -- it's practically equally capable as a smartphone these days anyway: it could have FB, a mobile/opera browser, instant messaging, etc. Sure it doesn't have a bevy of sensors, but you don't REALLY need them.

      What's the point of a smartphone - especially an up to date one - if you never use it? You might as well buy a new 4 and save yourself a truckload of money.

    40. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I suck.

      I guess since I'm an Apple user, I will have to get rid of my 13-year old PowerBook and 4-year old iMac so that I can be exactly like you say all Mac users are.

      Duh.

    41. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Parts are easy to get. Digikey has 99% of the stuff out there. really esoteric stuff, write the manufacturer asking for a "engineering sample" and you get 2-3 of them from free in 3-4 weeks.

      and unless you did something really stupid, 99% of failures on big chips are soldering failures. simple hot air rework on them fixes the problem most of the time.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    42. Re:It's the future... by dubdays · · Score: 1

      But can't you see, this is the land of confusion. And there's not much love to go around.

    43. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get used to it, been that way since Genesis.

      It does what nintendon't

    44. Re:It's the future... by Archeopteryx · · Score: 1

      One of the tools *I* need is a binocular inspection microscope.

      --
      Dog is my co-pilot.
    45. Re:It's the future... by TomC2 · · Score: 1

      Our 2006 Macbook had a battery replaced under Applecare cover in about 2009. The second battery is now more or less had it. Of course, it is now old enough that the Applecare has run out, and I suspect an Apple store would not be interested in doing anything with it even if I was paying, for such an old (sorry, "vintage") machine. But other than the battery it still works fine, and I suspect will do so for some time yet.

      Fortunately this machine was from the time when batteries were user-replaceable.

    46. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      These are essentially meant to be disposable. Toxic materials put into landfills. Some "green" companies will ship them to China instead so that they're put into Chinese landfills. But do not kid yourself, these companies fully expect you to throw this away in a year and buy a new one. If some consumers complain about how difficult it is to change a battery you see vastly more consumers in rapturous adoration of the tiny design.

      I wonder how this stuff sells in Europe where they have laws about tracking and recycling all the parts?

    47. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And yet, one can still change the batteries in those miniaturized radios.

    48. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Very often Apple does not repair them, they just give you a new device instead. Or they'll give you a time frame of a month and the consumer gives up and buys a replacement instead. I honestly doubt Apple really does repairs on most of this stuff.

    49. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Why replace it? Keep it, it is still NEW. Sure there are newer models, but the 3GS is a new device only four years old at most. Throwing away something this new is wasteful, and because it goes into landfills (do not kid yourself that things are recycled) it's ethically questionable.

    50. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hitler

    51. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      AT&T send a letter a month after I purchased my old phone that it needed a new sim card; then turns out my phone wasn't compatible with the upgrade. One month old and it was "obsolete". I kept it ten years though. Over that time they kept annoying me to buy new phones. I even purchased a new battery (trivial to change, no repair shop necessary) to keep it going. Eventually they finally sent the execution order and turned off the cellular service for it. Now I've got a "smart" phone with no replaceable batteries because there were no decent voice-only phones to get. I honestly doubt it will last even 4 years. Need to just learn to survive without a phone, but I get nervous about being in an emergency with no way to call for help.

    52. Re:It's the future... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      They don't recycle them, they trash them or send them to third parties to trash them. It's only there to make consumers feel good about themselves.

    53. Re:It's the future... by PintoPiman · · Score: 1

      Well, that's your theory. Another theory would be that users upgrade because the new stuff isn't "shiny," it's faster, lighter, higher resolution has a better camera and is in all ways better.

      That's MY theory, and it has the advantage of explaining the fact that folks with replaceable batteries upgrade at pretty much the same rate. You know, my theory fits the data.

      Your theory lets you hate Apple and feel superior to iOS owners though, so I guess it fits your needs well enough even if it doesn't fit the data..

    54. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the sort of person who has no imagination, no point progressing with new technology because old technology still works.

    55. Re:It's the future... by exomondo · · Score: 1

      So why didn't you get one with a replaceable battery? Also what's with the assumption that it will fail? And even if it does, just replace the battery - they don't make it easy because virtually nobody replaced their batteries before. You could always run the internal battery terminals to an external battery, sure it wouldn't be as elegant but does that matter?

    56. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you complain but in the end you dont care enough about this to be anything but a sheep.

      Eventually they finally sent the execution order and turned off the cellular service for it.

      because it's obsolete! that technology has been long superseded yet hoarders like you would have us holding onto technological cruft forever simply because it still works. IE6 still works, OS/2 still works, do you still use those just because they still work? there are model Ts and TRS-80s that still work and they are much more easily repairable than modern cars and ipads, go use them, your choice.

    57. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Originally, "no user-serviceable parts" meant "this radio/television uses soldered transistors rather than socketed vacuum tubes".

    58. Re:It's the future... by inflex · · Score: 1

      Getting one myself. Not a lot of change out of $1000 when shipped ( cheaper if you're in the US ~$500 ), but certainly well worth the investment none the less.

    59. Re:It's the future... by inflex · · Score: 1

      The 3GS still is one of the best ergonomic phones from Apple and so far as repairability goes it's miles ahead over the 4, 4S and the 5. About the biggest complaint with the 3GS is that the battery is indeed burried under the PCB and it's a bit of a bother to remove (7 screws) unless you know what you're doing, with a lot of people destroying the case or breaking the gold contacts because they thought they knew better and ham-fisted it.

    60. Re:It's the future... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't bother. People on this site made up their minds long ago that anything Microsoft is bad.

    61. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 0

      No problem. It's called rob it off another board there ACE. Let me guess, ou never though of that.

      Just because you dont have the right tools not the skills doesn't mean others cant do what you seem to not have the ability to do.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    62. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      They are a GODSEND!

      I found a nice one at Dayton 2 years ago for $350.00 that had a ton of eye relief and had a port on top for a C mount camera to screw onto so you can display on a TV what you are looking at.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    63. Re:It's the future... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Where do you get the other product that hasn't suffered the same fate from? Hope someones put one on ebay?

    64. Re: It's the future... by Rational · · Score: 1

      Not sure if we're reading the same Slashdot. What I see here is that, when Apple started making non-repairable devices, they were evil, but now that Microsoft is doing it also, it's just common sense.

      --
      "Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
    65. Re: It's the future... by Rational · · Score: 1

      And to clarify, as long as you know what you're getting, I'm fully in the "common sense" camp.

      --
      "Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
    66. Re:It's the future... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Lots of places. Unless you have a product that has a major design flaw most products dont suffer the same fate. If you blow out a major chip, most of the time it's because of user failure or engineering flaw. And like I said, most of the time it is not a major chip as a failure.

      for example, my 55" Panasonic plasma that I snagged for $25.00 in a broken state. It's failure was actually the power supply. Replacing several transistors a Power transistor and rebuilding a couple of board traces by using wire wrap wire brought it back to life.

      A friends PSP only had physical damage to the main board. Obscure chip failures are incredibly rare.

      But, I have repaired many Xbox360's by finding other broken ones not all RROD failures are complete chip cooking, Most people chuck the box or sell it on craigslist for $10.00. So the "hope" is not difficult, in fact if you find a common failure, there is a flood of parts out there from other failed devices.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    67. Re: It's the future... by Rational · · Score: 1

      While I agree with you in principle, for the last ten years everything that has been done by every company in the consumer electronics industry has been either imitating Apple, trying to distance themselves from Apple, as a reaction to Apple, or trying to pre-empt Apple. They are a pretty large elephant-in-the-room in every discussion.

      --
      "Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
    68. Re:It's the future... by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      I don't put used cellphones in the garbage to go waste in a landfill, I throw them at baby seals.

    69. Re:It's the future... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Sadly more and more devices are like this now. Apple seem to have popularised it and made is acceptable and other companies seem to be continuing the trend.

      Finally we get to who is really responsible. Microsoft should sue.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    70. Re:It's the future... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      No they are not. Your 'repair' consists of them removing your logic board and trashing it then putting in a new one. That is not a repair that is a new model but with them footing the bill and causes just as much harm to the planet as you throwing your unit in the bin minus the packaging.

    71. Re:It's the future... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      And it works evidently.

      If rather unfortunately. Seems that people will believe anything these days.

    72. Re:It's the future... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      European laws are vastly negated, overruled or ignored at the national and local levels. For example, it's technically illegal in the UK to put batteries in a normal bin, they have to go into chemical disposal along with the vast majority of other electrical items.

      I've been her 21 years in 17 different houses from London, to Dorset on the southern border to Hebden Bridge in the countryside bordering Scotland (the North border) and have never seen or heard of a chemical disposal site, let alone used one.

    73. Re:It's the future... by jbenwell · · Score: 1

      New Macbook batteries can be purchased at the Apple store for the white/black Macbooks that came out in 2006.

      If you prefer to go online:

      http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MA561LL/A/rechargeable-battery-13-inch-macbook-white

        This is the white one, I recently bought a black one)

  3. HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    just wanted to be the first to comment :)

    1. Re:HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      well, you fucked that up, I can only hope your love life is better

    2. Re:HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by telchine · · Score: 3, Funny

      Roses are red,
      Violets are blue,
      And Microsoft's tablet is full of glue!

    3. Re:HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Roses are red,
      Violets are blue,
      And Microsoft's tablet is full of glue!

      Face is all red,
      Head's got no hair,
      Fix Ballmer's laptop, he'll throw you his chair!

    4. Re:HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 4, Funny
      Shouldn't that be

      Xbox is red, Windows is blue, And Microsoft's tablet is full of glue!

    5. Re:HAPPY VALENTINE'S DAY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No mod points right now. But you win the thread!

  4. Enter the modern world of ... by Skapare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... waste!!! Manufacturers just want you to buy another to replace yours which is designed to break soon. Manufacturers win with more diversion of economy (e.g. repeat sales). World loses.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by war4peace · · Score: 1

      Sad but true. I still have quite a few old phones which work perfectly fine but can't really be re-used.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    2. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by systemidx · · Score: 2

      I disagree. I think this will hurt sales more than anything. I don't own an ipad for this very reason and I won't be the owner of a surface pro either, apparently.

    3. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by X0563511 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Self-breaking windows :(

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    4. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by pswPhD · · Score: 1

      ... waste!!! Manufacturers just want you to buy another to replace yours which is designed to break soon. Manufacturers win with more diversion of economy (e.g. repeat sales). World loses.

      I'm not as pessimistic. I don't think that many people are going to buy one- so not much wasted. Problem solved

    5. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by bws111 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Every clip, connector, screw, etc that is needed to make something 'repairable' adds weight, bulk, and cost. People have clearly demonstrated that weight, size, and cost win out over repairability when making their purchasing decisions. You can't lay it all (or even most of it) at the feet of the manufacturers.

    6. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      At least his rock is modular and replaceable.

    7. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by rnturn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ``Manufacturers just want you to buy another to replace yours which is designed to break soon.''

      And it's software, too. I'm sure most /.ers saw the article about Office 2013 being tied to a specific system... for life. Fatal laptop problem that requires replacement? You'll need to buy a new copy of Office as well; no re-installation of your copy of Office on your new laptop allowed. (Frankly, I think MS is going to have to do an about face on that policy unless they want to lose home customers in droves.) My wife -- who owns the only computer in the house that runs Windows -- was disgusted when she read that. She won't be a repeat Office customer after learning that.

      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
    8. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      I disagree. I think this will hurt sales more than anything.

      I don't own an ipad for this very reason and I won't be the owner of a surface pro either, apparently.

      Yea, this.

      Given the option, I refuse to buy products that are designed to fail within a specific period of time, namely because I'm not an idiot with more money than sense.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Stormthirst · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And who in the consumer world expects their device to go wrong and therefore need to be repaired. People just don't think like that. They've got used to laptops being so expensive to repair they might as well buy a new one - tablets are just as bad.

    10. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Desler · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And you and the GP are irrelevant minorities.

    11. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Stormwatch · · Score: 2

      Hurt what sales? I don't think many people are interested in the Surface either way.

    12. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Your solution needs a heavy duty military grade "Like" button that won't break after 1048576 uses.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    13. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by OolimPhon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People have clearly demonstrated that weight, size, and cost win out over repairability when making their purchasing decisions.

      Er, no. People can only buy what is available. It is the manufacturers who decide what weight, size and cost their products will be, not the purchasers.

      If all manufacturers choose not to make their products repairable then where is the choice?

    14. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by kthreadd · · Score: 2

      I disagree. I think this will hurt sales more than anything.

      I don't own an ipad for this very reason and I won't be the owner of a surface pro either, apparently.

      You don't have to throw it away just because something breaks. Apple offers service and repairs of iPads.

      Do you only buy cars that you can repair everything on yourself?

    15. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Missing.Matter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This. The surface was labeled a "brick" by many reviews for being only 0.1" thicker than an iPad. I imagine with a core i5, getting it down to 0.5" thick was an incredible challenge given the cooling needs of the processor. To be 0.5" thick *and* be easy to service with all the requisite clips and connectors seems like an impossible task.

    16. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      The tech nerds who posted above that they won't buy products that aren't repairable.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    17. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self-breaking windows :(

      In other words, it's not a bug, nor a feature. It's a core requirement.

    18. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not an idiot with more money than sense.

      And you and the GP are irrelevant minorities.

      That explains a lot about the direction our society is headed in; given the alternative, I'd have to say I'm happy to be in the minority in this case.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    19. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by bws111 · · Score: 1

      So you're telling me that over the last couple of decades of laptops, phones, and tablets, thin and light haven't won out every time? What planet are you on?

    20. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why I'm not getting a Surface, despite being in the target demographic.
      I still get use out of a 10 year old laptop. Surface will require service every three or so years to replace the battery, and many will wind up in land-fills.

      I suppose Microsoft needed to create a new forced upgrade cycle to replace the collapsing PC upgrade cycle.

    21. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      People have clearly demonstrated that weight, size, and cost win out over repairability when making their purchasing decisions.

      Personally I never got to make that choice. Repairability is not mentioned in the ads.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    22. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So do you want your handheld tablet to be larger and weigh more? Space and weight are important engineering considerations in these products that get overlooked. They have been numerous complaints on this forum that the Surface Pro weighs more than the iPad and is thicker even though the difference is small. Size and weight have a cost. One cost is user repairability. It is the same in cars. Small cars are more fuel efficient and powerful every year. Open the hood of one and there is very little room in the engine compartment compared to older generations.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    23. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Stuarticus · · Score: 2

      You missed reliability, remembering the xbox red ring fiasco I'd bet these things start dropping like flies after 6 months to a year.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    24. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "People can only buy what is available"

      Fucking moron. How do you think we got from the word of rock and stick to iPhone is this was actually true?

      You people are just astonishingly stupid.

    25. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Sulphur · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hurt what sales? I don't think many people are interested in the Surface either way.

      People in submarines are very interested in surface.

    26. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2

      No - he's NOT the only one to think that way. I think the same way, and my youngest son does. I haven't run a survey or a poll on the subject, but surely there are more than three of us.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    27. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. Except this thing "has more than 90 screws in all, 23 of which hold down an internal plastic bezel and 29 of which hold down two metal side plates" and is nonetheless unrepairable.

    28. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's 2013, people expect, a device breaking, to be an uncommon occurence.

      Personally, I say, go for it, I keep waiting for the time when the laptop, phone, etc are nothing more than black blobs inside shiny cases with a few ports sticking out.

      By contrast, look at desktops, easy to repair and maintain, but still need complete replacement every few years, if you're interested in keeping up-to-date.

      I think people should be worried more about the environmental impact and the necessary resources to build the next generation of gadgets. Rare earths and metals are called rare for a reason, and not because they're not well done.

    29. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Repair ability is proportional to form factor for just about any device. I don't understand what is so mysterious about this.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    30. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Yet according to iFixit, Microsoft used a lot of screws (which are actually good for repairability, compared to rivets for instance) in the Surface pro. So far, it could be a repair-friendly device.

      Where they arguably went wrong was gluing in the screen and battery. That really makes it hard to change parts without ruining the case.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    31. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by devent · · Score: 3, Informative

      That thing have over 90 screws. Certainly that disproves your theory.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    32. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And who in the consumer world expects their device to go wrong and therefore need to be repaired. People just don't think like that. They've got used to laptops being so expensive to repair they might as well buy a new one - tablets are just as bad.

      I think you have it wrong... people have gotten used to laptops (this goes for all consumer electronics these days) being so *cheap* that by comparison, the costs for repair seems exceedingly high. I mean who in their right minds would consider hiring a professional to repair a device that costs a few hundred dollars? Or more specifically: that you could *replace* with a brand new, faster version for a few hundred dollars with a one year warranty. Once it is out of warranty, it becomes disposable, sad perhaps, but it is part of the price to pay for dirt cheap electronics.

    33. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by scamper_22 · · Score: 1

      Dare I say, what's wrong with that?

      People used to repair TVs. Today, it is often cheaper to just buy another one. Good for the consumer. Good for the manufacturer. Bad for the repairman.

      It depends of course on each device, but often times buy a new one is a pretty good answer.

      I've got a Nexus 7 tablet. If it should break, chances are I won't try and repair it. It is cheap enough that I could get the latest and greatest newest comparable tablet for not much more.

    34. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interestingly, this disposable culture is at least partly a result of our high standard of living and wages and our low cost for consumer products. Where I live, labor for electronics repair runs between $50-$100 / hour. So you buy a $400 tablet, you use it for 2 years and it breaks, the board dies or the screen goes. Let's say your repair guy can source a replacement board for $100, plus $75 labor means that for nearly 50% of the cost you paid, you can have basically a refurbished product. Now it's been 2 years since you bought your tablet, chances are a new version of the same model you bought costs ~$200 and a newer model with better features costs between $300-$400. Why in the world would you want to repair it when repair costs are anywhere from 50-100% of a replacement?

    35. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the heckfire are you on about. There's gobs of screws and bulk added. it's a monster.

    36. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by ButchDeLoria · · Score: 0

      Check your cis privilege.

    37. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self-breaking Windows(R) is nothing new.

    38. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're telling me that over the last couple of decades of laptops, phones, and tablets, thin and light haven't won out every time? What planet are you on?

      I'd guess one of Mercury, Mars or Pluto.

    39. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It won't hurt sales. If people want "small and portable", they understand this comes with an engineering tradeoff of serviceability - not to mention a big jump in price. There is no shortage of heavy, modular, bulky, relatively inexpensive laptops.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    40. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nexus 7 back comes off without any tools. Battery is easily replaceable without a soldering iron. Only 1mm thicker than an iPad. Nexus 10 has a teardown with similar conclusions. It can be done if repairability a design priority. Now that iFixit is getting more attention from the blogosphere, hopefully consumers will start paying attention.

      Batteries are a consumable. There's no excuse for making them non-replaceable--consumers will wake up to this when their iPad 1's stop holding a charge in another year or so. That's an expensive paperweight.

    41. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I don't know it's so much that, more that the cost of any computer equipment is in a constant plummet - which means by the time your laptop or PC breaks down out of warranty it's worth a quarter of what it retailed for, at best. Frequently rather less than that.

      If you bought the cheapest PC money could buy four or five years ago, that means it's worth approximately £nothing at all today. But nobody's going to repair it for nothing at all, which means you're going to have to pay a lot more than it's worth.

    42. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by surmak · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile the iPad has no moving parts, therefor it will work forever, or until you use it as a shield or weapon. The Surface Pro, Macbook Air, and Retina Macbook Pro will only work until the fans get jammed with dust, dirt, cat hair, human hair, etc. With my now 7 year old laptop, that happened at least every 3 months. Smaller fans mean it's more difficult to clean. At least with a full size laptop I have the option of inserting the compressed air nozzle down the ram upgrade panel and blowing the dust out. Until the fans get gummed up (which happened at the end of it's extended warranty) this can be done.

      Intel needs a mobile part that is HEATSINK-ONLY, no fan. Until then, ARM parts are the only option.

      Unfortunately the lithium-ion battery in the iPad will wear out in 3-5 years.

    43. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by tomlouie · · Score: 1

      By your reasoning, modern cars wouldn't even have hoods that open. You know, to save on space and weight. And you wouldn't be able to change the air filter. And tires that were impossible to remove & change. And a car battery that couldn't be user-replaced. Or wipers you can replace. Or lightbulbs. Or oil.

      Need to change your air filter, oil, wipers, bulbs or car battery? Sorry, you're gonna have to junk it and buy a new car.

    44. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not designed to last is not the same thing as "designed to break".

    45. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Because tech nerds == "People"? No. I mean consumers, not people like us who expect to be able to repair/upgrade/change the OS of our devices

    46. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Compound that with the fact that the cheapest PC money will buy now will do everything the vast majority want to do with a PC - word processing, email, facebook.

    47. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I was both a car enthusiast and a professional car mechanic (both of which I am regarding computers) I think it would make sense to buy a car that I could repair myself.

    48. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Given the option, I refuse to buy products that are designed to fail within a specific period of time, namely because I'm not an idiot with more money than sense."

      Translation: I'm actually quite poor and have a lot of time on my hands and I absurdly think that this phone will be usable for 5 years because I am a cheap bastard... Now get off my lawn before I waggle my Palm Treo at you.

    49. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      That was kind of my point. Only arrogant nerds think their opinion matters.

      100 M iPads in 2.5 years shows that it doesn't.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    50. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      "Surface will require service every three or so years to replace the battery,"

      Really? it's built that crappy with really low end china grey market batteries? Cripes my old iPad1 still works perfect and in 2 months will be 3 years old and used daily by a small child. I guarantee it will go another 2 years on it's battery. I personally got at least 3 years out of my iphone 3 that is still in use today, more than 4 years later on the same battery. I still have a working battery in my Nokia N900 that is the original.

      I think your knowledge of battery technology is horribly outdated. We haven't had crap batteries in devices for nearly 5 years now. Let me guess, you also think you have to discharge them completely once every month or so.. (This is not only really, really outdated information, it is actually BAD for your LiIon and LiPo battery to do so.)

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    51. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, yes I do. Old carbonated cars are easy to work on. I would like to able to know that if something goes wrong on a road trip that I dont have to call AAA and wait for them to come pick me up tow my car to the nearest German Car Specialty Shop so that they can charge me 10x more for a component that was over engineered and designed to fail. I want to be able to break out a set of wrenches and be able to work on it on the side of the road and get it back up and running with in an hour.

      I want My Computers/Laptops/Netbook/Tablet/Desktop to be able to be upgraded/repaired easily.

    52. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I personally have replaced the screen on an ipad2. And I refuse to do so for less than $1000.00 in cash. It is such a pain in the arse to do so, that I demand a price that is full of ridiculousness to make people go away.

      It is a nightmare to get the old screen off, clean it all up and then to get a Decent replacement that does not have some defect in it is near impossible. and every video online showing dis-assembly is a complete lie. the screen CAN NOT come off without shattering it.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    53. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm somewhat certain that's not even legal by European consumer law.

    54. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the next /. poll is!

    55. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Every clip, connector, screw, etc that is needed to make something 'repairable' adds weight, bulk, and cost. People have clearly demonstrated that weight, size, and cost win out over repairability when making their purchasing decisions. You can't lay it all (or even most of it) at the feet of the manufacturers.

      Yes, that is why MS used 28 screws to hold 2 pieces of metal in. Err, that isn't the point you are making is it?

      --
      Be seeing you...
    56. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had that since '95!

    57. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by eek_the_kat · · Score: 1

      Commie!

      Kidding of course, but taking a drive with Dad in the new car is as American as apple pie.

    58. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More people complained about the weight than the tickness. It's 33% heavier than the already heavy iPad4 and SurfaceRT.

    59. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by bws111 · · Score: 1

      What you meant was '28 screws to hold two very thin pieces of metal against plastic, in an area which receives almost no stress'.

      They didn't use screws there to make it repairable, they used them because they were the best fit for the job. It is difficult to glue metal and plastic together. And even at that, they had to use 28 screws even in a low-stress area. If there was a better alternative, they would have used it.

      The case, however, is subject to a lot of stress, as well as aesthetic considerations. Screws to hold the case together would have to be much beefier and have similarly beefy mounting points (on both parts). That means more weight and thickness. It also means holes all over the back of the device.

    60. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Bert64 · · Score: 2

      If people want "small and portable", they won't be buying a surface pro...
      They're more likely to buy an ipad, which is not only smaller and more portable, but is also cheaper and easier to service.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    61. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would hardly be impossible to achieve that, all you need to do is hold the case and screen together with screws rather than adhesive, at worst it may require making the case slightly taller and wider if they have no space for more screws, but it wouldn't require making it any thicker. That said, gluing the screen on probably makes assembly easier and cheaper, but still they probably could have cut down the ridiculous number of internal screws to make way for ones to hold the case and screen together without glue and then end up not being much different with regard to ease of manufacture.

    62. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      People just don't think like that. They've got used to laptops being so expensive to repair they might as well buy a new one - tablets are just as bad.

      I think that it is often more than cost -- people just don't think it is possible to repair laptops at any price. For example, there was an episode of "Celebrity Apprentice" during which some coffee was spilled into the laptop that one of the teams had been using to create materials for their project. Instead of calling in someone in to recover the data (it might simply have been an issue of moving the hard drive to another machine), they abandoned that work and attempted to re-create it with what little time they had left. I doubt that money was an issue in that situation.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    63. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      People used to repair TVs. Today, it is often cheaper to just buy another one. Good for the consumer. Good for the manufacturer. Bad for the repairman.

      TVs also used to cost several year's worth of pay. Nowadays they can be had for generally a month's worth of disposable income (minimum wage). For most people, you can get them for pbably a week's worth of saving.

      Back in the old days, people replaced tubes also because the MTBF of their TV was horrendously low before a tube would blow.

      So you bought a device that required scrimping and saving for YEARS and which can fail in a month (or two), well, of course you fixed it.

      I suppose the only equivalent these days would be if you bought the latest 4K TVs ($10-15K) or OLED TV ($40K). Even then it's not much of a comparison because you can still march into Best Buy and walk out with an equivalently sized HDTV for under $2K (the 4K's are pushing around 60"+, the OLEDs 50"). And they'd still pretty much last for years.

      Stores used to have huge displays of tubes complete with tube testers. You'd take out all the tubes in your TV or radio and test them and pick up replacements and then reinstall them all. These things promptly died out with the invention of the transistor, enabling far cheaper electronics that lasted longer.

      I'm sure back when computers also cost between $5-10K not too long ago, people cared about repairability. These days, they're practically disposable because you can pick up a laptop for well under $500.

    64. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Given the right tools, perhaps the screen is easily removed from the case. Maybe they have an effective glue remover, or some jig they put the thing in to heat it up evenly in the correct places to melt the glue.

      Just because some guy with a heat gun and some spudgers has a hard time doing it, doesn't mean someone with the right tools and training will.

    65. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Screws mean the forces are concentrated in a small area around the screw hole. Glue means the forces are spread out over the entire contact area. It's also more forgiving. Where a screw may can crack, glue may stretch.

    66. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "modern" LOLOLOLOLOL

    67. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      All tablets that size are bricks, only 7" ones are reasonable to hold for a long time. The Surface Pro isn't designed for long term holding though, it is for desktop use.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    68. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      And yet this device has 29 screws merely to hold two plates in place.

    69. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit, good insdustrial design (from a consumer point of view) is repairable/replaceable without adding those extra costs, think about the battery lid on most phones and the enclosed, soldered battery on apple handhelds, which one do you think is cheaper?

      Good industrial design (from the producers point of view) is a couple cents per unit more expensive which means a a few dozen of dollars more expensive at retail, has a predictable and short lifespan and encourages further sales.

    70. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have never had a decent (i.e. mechanical) watch or a fine pen do you?

    71. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Battery life depends on how you use it. A good quality Li-ion battery will charge maybe 1000 times, but after about 6-700 times the life will be significantly reduced. Heat is also a big issue, especially in laptops but less so in ARM based tablet devices. Load and charge rate have an affect too, so if you have a high power Retina display and always fast charge with a 2.5A charger it will reduce the battery's life.

      I find li-ion batteries tend to last a couple of years before capacity is significantly degraded, but I'm not a heavy user of phones or tablets. I can buy a new battery for my phone or tablet for less than a tenner on Amazon and drop it in. I wouldn't buy a device with non-user replaceable battery because replacement is inevitable.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    72. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by PintoPiman · · Score: 1

      The next one will be way faster and have a better camera and higher resolution and more options, right?

      That sounds awful!

    73. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Do you only buy cars that you can repair everything on yourself?

      I can't get in there and fix the ECU!!! It's a corporate conspiracy of planned obsolescence to line the pockets of corporate fatcats!!! You're all sheep marching to tune of your corporate masters!!! Rabble Rabble Rabble!!!

    74. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I certainly agree that the Venn Diagram starts to get tiny here, but there are people who want to run legacy Windows apps on a tablet. Probably not very many, but they do exist.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    75. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Open the hood of one and there is very little room in the engine compartment compared to older generations."

      They are still designed to be repaired, but the process is a bit different. I've done MANY powerpack swaps working at a used car lot, and once an "old school" mechanic is used to them it's no big deal. Most "old school" mechanics have died or retired by now (that's not a joke) and modern engine/transaxle combinations have been out for decades.

      "Less engine compartment room" is not the same as "the hood is welded shut"!

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    76. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So do you want your handheld tablet to be larger and weigh more?

      The size and weight are listed in the specifications for the device, so I can use them to inform my purchasing decision. The repairability is not.

    77. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. I think this will hurt sales more than anything.

      I don't own an ipad for this very reason and I won't be the owner of a surface pro either, apparently.

      Me too, for exactly that reason.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    78. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      It's about demonstrating the concept of compromise in engineering. You want more power and keep the car the same size, something has to go. In the case of a handheld consumer device every size and weight reduction comes at a cost. This is the same arguments we had about the original iPod sealed battery. The original iPod had a 5G capacity and could play 4-5 hours on a single charge. It could also fit in your pocket whereas players of similar capacity at the time could not. This smaller form factor was possible only because Apple sealed the battery. It wasn't a malicious intent on the part of Apple: it was an engineering compromise.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    79. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can do. It won't feel nearly as solid though.

    80. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yes except it's not unserviceable because of some engineering feat. It's unserviceable for using glue where a screw could have done, and for using 29 screws where every other manufacturer seems to be ok with about 3. Contrary to belief, screws don't make a device thicker, especially not thick components.

      No the only reason it's unserviceable is because of this fetish of having a single device with no seams around the outside.

    81. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      "Given the option, I refuse to buy products that are designed to fail within a specific period of time, namely because I'm not an idiot with more money than sense."

      Translation: I'm actually quite poor and have a lot of time on my hands and I absurdly think that this phone will be usable for 5 years because I am a cheap bastard... Now get off my lawn before I waggle my Palm Treo at you.

      I would be poor if I wasted my money on the newest iShiny that comes out every six months.

      Being a cheap bastard, however, I can't argue with, save for the fact that unlike yourself, I actually know who my father is.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    82. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      All batteries say that. Even Apple's.

      The reality is YMMV but I'll have you know that Apple use cheap Chinese Slave Trade battereis so I do believe grey market models are a little better all things considered... like the slavery bit.

    83. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      Finally!

      someone addresses our under-representation!

    84. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      But actually you can, if you can afford the tech to program it like your local garage can.

    85. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      Legacy Windows apps means anything made compatible with Windows now?

      Wow, I must be getting old, I thought Windows still represented 85% of computers today.

      Oh wait, it still does.

    86. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Used to be 95%.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    87. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by metaforest · · Score: 1

      I refine this a bit. I'll look at the problem. Often it is something obvious. Easy fix for everyone... except the OEM...

      This is the problem.

      OEMs do not want anyone ELSE to make money on their offering. If this happens then they failed. They have left money on the table.

      And this is why I am very, very upset with the trends in technology these days... The tech market has swung once again into the screw the custie side of the market.... This has happened before, and that pendulum swings back again.... the 3rd party markets learn how to fix the OEM's broken shit, and for a 3 -5 year span no one buys new shit... they pay to have their old shit fixed. I have been through this market cycle a few times. We are about due for a swing to the maker/fixer market....

    88. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by exomondo · · Score: 1

      No you can't, that's just issuing it pre-configured commands. If it's broken it's no easier to fix than an ipad with broken internals.

    89. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      Actually no. If it was a software fault then the above applies. If it's a hardware fault you can replace the ECU or have an aftermarket one fitted on nearly all cars. So no, it's nothing like a broken iPad.

    90. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by exomondo · · Score: 1

      If it's a hardware fault you can replace the ECU

      Yep and if it's a hardware fault you can replace the iPad.

    91. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by Gen_Music · · Score: 1

      You miss the point deliberately. If you have a fault with your iPad you must put the whole thing in the rubbish and get another one (or have Apple do it for you on warranty). If you damage your car, we're not replacing your car, just the parts that are broken.Maybe 5% of the value of the car (being very generous) is represented by the ECU so the wastage s a percentage of the whole is vastly different.

      It was an apples and oranges proposition to start with but the fact is a Car would get a far higher iFixit score than a iPad because even the electronic parts are DESIGNED with servicing in mind. iPads are deliberately designed to be nigh on impossible to service even by Apple themselves.

    92. Re:Enter the modern world of ... by exomondo · · Score: 1

      You miss the point deliberately.

      No, you are missing the point, I'm not comparing an iPad to a car, I'm comparing an iPad to an ECU. An iPad, like an ECU is not designed to be servicable, they sacrifice servicability in the name of manufacturing cost, simplicity, size and weight...sure they could be broken out into separate individually-servicable components but that just negates those benefits.

      If you damage your car, we're not replacing your car, just the parts that are broken.

      I'm not talking about a car, I'm talking about an ECU.

  5. Planned obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

  6. as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It simply is not designed to be opened or fixed at home, except perhaps by teardown expert"

    Hasn't that generally been the case for a few decades now, for lots and lots of things? They are basically bitching that there are lot of screws and glue. It's not a simple device.

    1. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      some have still some parts to replace.

      like battery etc.. http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+Teardown/12842/

      dunno why the fuck the article links to wired.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No this is a completely new manufacturing practice, invented at Microsoft R&D (aka Satan's Den). That's why it's actually news.

    3. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Zemran · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not true, a couple of years ago I would have argued with you as I repaired many MacBook Pros and Thinkpads etc. which were easy to get apart and put back together without breaking anything. Now they are specifically designed to stop you doing that. It is only the timeframe that I am arguing...

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    4. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The battery is replaceable, so is the SSD. They used a heatgun, screwdriver, and tweezers to totally dismantle the entire product. How is that 'virtually impossible to repair'?

    5. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Hasn't that generally been the case for a few decades now, for lots and lots of things?

      Yes, but that doesn't mean we should stop complaining about it. No, it means that we should complain louder than ever. There's no reason, besides greed, that these things are not repairable.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Nobody should have to apply heat to a lithium ion battery in order to replace it. That is insane. Every step past removing the kickstand seemed to require you to pry the glass cover and LCD off a rigid metal frame, also with liberal application of heat to the device.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    7. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it required a heatgun and tweezers, as opposed to a screwdriver and, well, a screwdriver.

    8. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Sockatume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not that they're specifically designed with preventing repair in mind; it's that they're not designed with repairs in mind at all. In the increased pursuit of miniaturisation Apple (and now MS) have completely removed repairability as a design consideration.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    9. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      They also said that the battery is impossible to remove without destroying the back cover. Where will you get a replacement cover from? Better get your 3D printer ready. Even then, only a person of great skill could get to the battery without destroying other components in the process.

    10. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      That's why you can send it in and let them replace the battery for you. I don't know if Microsoft offers that, but Apple does.

    11. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      That greatly discourages people from having the repair done, makes it costlier and more difficult to do, and probably leaves the battery and the body of the tablet in a completely unusable state.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    12. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Take for example attaching screens. It used to be done with screws. Then the screws had get smaller; however, smaller screws meant more of them to distribute the force. Also they had to be perfectly aligned and accessible to be installed. Then they went to glue. Tighter adhesion, distributed force, no space requirements. It may even weigh less. The drawback was user serviceablility.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    13. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      I don't know about other vendors but Apple offers it at roughly the same price as what a standalone battery would have cost you.

    14. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thinkpads are still user serviceable, unless you're talking about the consumer grade ones. I can repair all of the parts of my Thinkpad that are likely to breakdown with less trouble than doing it with a desktop.

    15. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by rapaige · · Score: 1

      I was wondering the exact same thing. Assuming you could extract the components undamaged, how reasonable would it be to 3d-print a replacement case? With the growing number of 3d printers available at consumer (ok, sub-$1000) prices, I can imagine a growing market of 3d models for replacement cases. But not having a 3d printer myself, I don't know how feasible this is from a model perspective or durability of the 3d-print material.

    16. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It'd be perfect for a mobile phone cover replacement. A tablet case, though, may be too big for many models. As for durability, you could just make the case as thick as required, at the expense of making the tablet thicker too. An ugly repair.

    17. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not that they're specifically designed with preventing repair in mind; it's that they're not designed with repairs in mind at all. In the increased pursuit of miniaturisation Apple (and now MS) have completely removed repairability as a design consideration.

      Miniaturization will happen with or without Microsoft and Apple, and frankly it's hilarious that you would blame those companies as opposed to entire industries that deal in digital electronics.

      What happens when a capacitor poops out? An ASIC? Microprocessor?
      How about just a simple copper trace somewhere on your PC motherboard cracks.. who would even bother troubleshooting that for even a multi $100 mobo?

      Just saying, this hardly a new trend, so get used to it or at least bark in the right direction.

    18. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      It also greatly discourages cheap aftermarket batteries. The ones that happen to be the same size, not necessarily the same specifications.
      I don't want my battery burning down my house when I leave it on the charger.

    19. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Since the invention of the laptop these have always been repairable, and it has customarily been simple to replace batteries and harddrives, or even to add in more RAM at times. The death knell for responsible laptops was when Apple eliminated the battery cover and glued the case together. Somewhat scary since in the previous model we had several coworkers with failing batteries that would swell to double their volume and push the battery cover off...

      Ten years ago just about every device you could purchase had some repairable parts in it, all of which could either be fixed by the user or with a technician, without having to mail it back to the manufacturer. PCs, refrigerators, televisions, microwave ovens, autos, cellular phones, laptops, pagers, wrist watches, etc. Ten years ago there wasn't anything that worked with a battery that could not also have the battery replaced.

    20. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Thing is a phone like the Galaxy S III or tablet like the Nexus 7 is competitive on size, thickness and weight with Apple and MS devices yet are much, much easier to service and have user-friendly features like a replaceable battery.

      1mm thinner isn't worth it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Is it a trend we want though? What is so special about miniaturization that we should voluntarily embrace planned obscolescence? These are just silly devices intended as fashion accessories, they're not practical work horses.

    22. Re:as repairable as any modern gadget by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Your last sentence is untrue. There are numerous downsides to reparability starting with aesthetics but also covering size and weight (remember how Apple improved battery life in their MBPs with the internal-only battery? A total bitch to service that, but they made use of the space that was needed for removable casing before). Engineers like computers that can be disassembled, but ordinary people like computers that are slick and elegant and fashionable. No modern electronic device has been made more fashionable by making it easier to service.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  7. I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And I got into a heated debate with my manager about Microsoft making so many of the computers in the world end up in the trash bin and poisoning 3rd world countries beyond what other tech companies were doing... I was a top performer in my group but for some reason I was given a bad review by someone who wasnt even my manager and I was basically blacklisted from moving anywhere else in the company.

    So count me not surprised by this news

    1. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the larger WTF here is that someone other than a coworker or your manager can give you a review (that matters).

    2. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're surprised? I'd say that is the "norm"...

      Most companies are like High School, immature, clickish, and the people in charge (teachers/managers) can do anything they want :P

      No your HR department, won't tell it can be done... (you don't actually think HR cares about you do you ?)

    3. Re:I worked at MS... by virgnarus · · Score: 1

      I take it the conversation started with a comment about the stability of Windows?

    4. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure your internal customers wanna have a say in your performance too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/360-degree_feedback

    5. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Newsflash: very few, if any, other biological organisms that don't know you closely and/or are related to you are going to care about you. Those who claim to are full of shit.

      Especially considering the GP worked for a company, talked self righteous shit about their employers perceived impact on third world countries (as if the GP really gave a fuck)...and the GP blames their predicament on...a bad review!

    6. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the larger WTF here is that someone other than a coworker or your manager can give you a review (that matters).

      You can't. The other AC is full of shit. Calibration feedback is given from a list of people YOU choose to send the request to, and your manager. And those won't "blacklist" you, anyway. Moving to other parts of the organization isn't something that can be blocked by your current manager, nor is the majority of the details in your yearly review available to the new hiring manager. On very rare occasions, you may have someone who calibrates very low (a 4 or a 5, in current nomenclature) that then has problems moving between teams, but that's on the hiring manager, not the current manager... and frankly, if you calibrate that low, its surprising you don't get fired, anyway.

      And, considering there are literally hundreds of teams, I find it hard to believe that the GP wasn't able to move around the company, unless the GP had an overinflated sense of his/her abilities and that came across in the interview. But it sure as shit isn't because of some imaginary "blacklisting".

    7. Re:I worked at MS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you got a bad review for saying something stupid and getting heated about it? Makes sense I guess. When I say stupid things I try not to get heated. Wait, actually I try not to say stupid things. Blaming Microsoft for computers getting tossed out when they are old is silly. I guess you could go back to their old, "we want a computer on every desk" idea and blame them for making computers easier to use - but it just seems silly to blame them for people putting their machines into recycling or the trash. If I worked at BP, I would be a doofus if I got into an argument with my manager about how BP shouldn't be drilling for oil...

  8. Planned Obsolescence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Designed this way, if you can't repair it you just might buy a new one or even the 'next generation' product.

    Quoting from Wikipedia (*cough*) but it's not a new concept.
    E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence#Systemic_obsolescence

    "Another way of introducing systemic obsolescence is to eliminate service and maintenance for a product. If a product fails, the user is forced to purchase a new one."

  9. Welcome to your two minute hate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How predictable of Slashdot.

    1. Re:Welcome to your two minute hate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go fuck yourself. With a rake.

  10. Yeah, but the difference is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Most of them lied about it for liability.

    When a small device manufacturer says it, they mean 'not servicable by ANYONE' :)

  11. disposable tech by Scaboo · · Score: 1

    The culture of repair, a term used by a colleague of mine, has been on life support, at best, for a long time now (if it isn't already dead and buried). As much as the facts surrounding the Surface Pro and the inability to repair it are unfortunate, I wonder if people really expect to be able to fix their gadgets any more.

    1. Re:disposable tech by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they insist on killing the culture of repair, as you put it - they really need to stop throwing shit in the ocean and landfills. It's only sustainable if you actually recycle.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    2. Re:disposable tech by SomePgmr · · Score: 1

      It comes and goes. Lately I've seen a lot more of it. Modding hardware, improving it, fixing things, build your own, etc. The hobby electronics/diy/maker thing is popular right now. As far as trends go, I'd say it's a pretty good one, and I hope it sticks around.

    3. Re:disposable tech by zrelativity · · Score: 1
      Being able to repair and able to recycle need not correlate.

      With increasing level of integration, and cramming so many devices into such small packages, means that you need very specialized manufacturing process.

    4. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hardware manufacturers have been trying to kill off the repair business for the same reason video game makers are trying to kill off the used game market - every dollar you spend fixing something you already own, is a dollar they don't get.

      What blows my mind are the hypocrites here on /. who will wail endlessly about EA and Sony locking a game disk to a particular console (i.e., something that really doesn't matter in the 'big scheme of things'), then subsequently accuse people who complain about hardware makers doing the exact same thing of being "buggy whip makers," even though the trend of planned obsolescence in hardware is far more dangerous to society than anything having to do with a stupid fucking video game.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    5. Re:disposable tech by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      If I can't easily break down something, then chances are that the minimum wage (probably Mexican) drone at the recycling center can't/won't break it down either.

      That means it will just be considered trash and not recycled.

      The standards for this already set a pretty low bar for "bother".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:disposable tech by dyingtolive · · Score: 2

      The problem is that 'they' don't care about anything beyond next quarter's results.

      'They' certainly don't care about your "faggy pinko" (words I'm inserting into 'their' mouths, not mine) concerns like the environment. Someone else will figure it out.

      --
      Support the EFF and Creative Commons. The war is coming, and they're supporting you...
    7. Re:disposable tech by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've spoken to people at my local TV repair shop, and they expect to be out of business soon. Modern hardware isn't repairable. Even replaceable components aren't: They cited the flyback transformer as an example. A frequent failure in CRT displays, and easily replaceable: A little soldering, but that's all. Except that the newer CRTs (before everything went flat) needed calibrating for the exact value of resistance and inductance of the flyback, to compensate for slight variences between individual components even off the production line, and those calibration values are stored in an EPROM chip which cannot be so easily replaced, in a propritary format for which the manufacturer never released any tools or documentation, accessible usually by entering a secret handshake known only by the manufacturer via either a hidden serial port or the IR control interface. The flyback may be replaceable, but it won't do you any good. It's easier to just buy a whole new TV than to reverse-engineer one enough to repair it.

    8. Re:disposable tech by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      I think you misunderstood me. What I meant to say, is if they insist on devices being unrepairable and unserviceable, then they need to enforce recycling - else we just waste that much more of the valuable resources that go into them. It's irresponsible not to do so.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    9. Re:disposable tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're going to be dealing with idiots everywhere. Always keep in mind that at least 30% of the population is completely irrational. Alan Keyes got 27% of the vote in Illinois while openly batshit insane, and that's just the right-wing religious freaks. Add insane people who identify with the left, and the number may be as high as 50%.

    10. Re:disposable tech by Scaboo · · Score: 1

      Very good point, thank you for that. I get caught up in all the reports of planned obsolescence and unrepairable things and fail to realize the current reality; as shown in your example. Hopefully projects like ecoATM and the increase in electronics recycling at local dumps will help reduce the amount of waste created by all our new tech, at the very least.

    11. Re:disposable tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not likely. Things like that end up being crushed into smithereens and the metals recovered. The process is kind of interesting and typically uses a HEPA filtered machine about the size of a house.

    12. Re:disposable tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have a local TV repair shop still? Funny, my dad closed his down in the late CRT era because he couldn't make a living profiting against the big-box retail stores of the day. (Which all then went bankrupt because of Cirucit City and Best Buy.)

    13. Re:disposable tech by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      It comes and goes. Lately I've seen a lot more of it. Modding hardware, improving it, fixing things, build your own, etc. The hobby electronics/diy/maker thing is popular right now. As far as trends go, I'd say it's a pretty good one, and I hope it sticks around.

      I agree entirely. People who want to do hardware mods are buying Arduinos and RaspberryPIs, and whatever offbrand mobos they love. People who want a simple, packaged, tool, buy non-repairable/non-moddable items.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    14. Re:disposable tech by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      I have. But it is one of the last, and struggling. I don't anticipate it being around forever.

    15. Re:disposable tech by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      I heard that claim as well, but replaced a flyback anyways and the set looked fine and worked well. I think the TV repair guy was blowing smoke.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    16. Re:disposable tech by joelsherrill · · Score: 1

      A friend of mine who ran a TV repair business saw the writing on the wall when he had to start paying upwards of USD5K a year to a single manufacturer to get manuals. And the parts became entire modules with higher costs. He focused on higher end systems since anything cheap enough isn't worth the cost to repair. Eventually he gave up and went to work for LG.

    17. Re:disposable tech by c++0xFF · · Score: 1

      What nobody here seems to be talking about are refurbished items.

      Manufacturers don't want other people to be able to service their devices, sure. But the manufacturer wants to be able to go into a defective item, replace the camera or whatever might have been bad, and resell it at a modest discount. But that only works if repairing costs less than just making a new one to begin with.

      That's why I suspect Apple made their devices easier to repair while at the same time introducing their own proprietary "pentalobe" screw. They don't want third party repair shops to get in, but they want to make their own repairs easier.

      Mark my words: the Surface Pro won't be available refurbished by the manufacturer in any significant quantity (only returns where nothing was actually wrong will get resold). Third party refurbished items will be of very shoddy quality.

    18. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      What nobody here seems to be talking about are refurbished items.

      A bit further down the thread, but for the record, I do not disagree with you in any way.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    19. Re:disposable tech by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Go the way of the auto industry then. Cars are made to be repaired. If you build a car by buying spare parts though, it'll cost you millions. If you don't use genuine parts, you'll lose your warranty. Authorised repairers till only use genuine parts too.

      It doesn't really cost $200 for that hunk of cast metal that needs to be replaced.
      That genuine air filter installed at your regular service doesn't really cost $80 to make either. Its just some plastic and paper.

    20. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Go the way of the auto industry then. Cars are made to be repaired. If you build a car by buying spare parts though, it'll cost you millions. If you don't use genuine parts, you'll lose your warranty. [Authorized] repairers till only use genuine parts too.

      That's not necessarily true - sometime even the use of genuine parts will void a warranty, and sometimes it doesn't matter what part you use, the warranty remains valid.

      This is not a black/white issue.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    21. Re:disposable tech by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Hmm, the old TV repair shops used to get special training and tools from the manufacturers. Manufacturers did this because the consumers wanted it, they didn't want to buy a completely new product just because of a broken part. The manufacturers are intended these to not be repairable by anyone, and they're not going to help out any local professional, because they want the consumers to buy brand new devices instead. This excessive consumption is much more rampant now than it was in the 50s.

    22. Re:disposable tech by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Things are not so easily recycled though. Often these devices are just taken apart and various components tossed in different bins. Circuit boards are shredded without removing any chips first, cables are put together to get the copper out. Rare earth metals are rarely recovered. It's better than dumping in a landfill but only just slightly better. The recyclers will not know or care if a particular part still works. Sometimes these devices are sent to poor countries where some of the demolition is done by hand without proper safety.

    23. Re:disposable tech by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Why did you quote me, then change the spelling in my quote to non-English? (Authorised)

      If you put an aftermarket part in your car and it breaks, the car manufacture isn't going to fix it for free. If that failure causes someone to die, the manufacturer isn't going to get sued either.

      If you put a genuine part in yourself and it fails because you put it in wrong, you won't be helped either. That's there the "Authorised" part comes in, those mechanics have paid the car company for their qualifications and such.

    24. Re:disposable tech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meh. So long as the prices keep dropping, I'll forgive manufacturers for making TVs less repairable.

    25. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Why did you quote me, then change the spelling in my quote to non-English? (Authorised)

      Oops, sorry 'bout that - sometimes I forget you limey fog-breathers spell certain words a bit different than we traitorous colonists.

      Here's an example of what I meant:

      sometime even the use of genuine parts will void a warranty,

      Say you buy a Cheby Yugo that came stock with a T30 turbo; you notice that the Yugo also has an option for a T45 turbo, so you go buy one (a 'genuine part' no less), and have it installed on your ride.

      2 weeks later the engine grenades. You take it in for warranty service and they tell you it's not covered; 'but why,' you demand, 'I used genuine parts!' 'Yes,' replies the service manager, 'but as the genuine part you put on was not standard equipment on the model you purchased, we don't have to honor the warranty.'

      Other end of the spectrum:

      sometimes it doesn't matter what part you use, the warranty remains valid.

      You go to the local auto parts store and purchase BrakeMeister brand brakes, and install them on your car. a week later, the high pressure line to the caliper explodes. You take the car to the dealership, and they replace the line under warranty, because the brand of brakes you purchased did not have anything to do whit the line failing.

      Google "Right to Repair" for further evidence and reading.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    26. Re:disposable tech by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      If you put parts on a car that did not come with it, of course you'll get no support

      If you put 3rd party parts on a car and they don't cause a failure, and they don't fail themselves, of course its covered.

      Btw, I'm as far away from a limey fog breather as can physically be while still being on this planet.

    27. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      If you put parts on a car that did not come with it, of course you'll get no support

      If you put 3rd party parts on a car and they don't cause a failure, and they don't fail themselves, of course its covered.

      Thus supporting my earlier point that it is not a black or white issue.

      Btw, I'm as far away from a limey fog breather as can physically be while still being on this planet.

      If that means American or Canadian, then you did spell it wrong.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    28. Re:disposable tech by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      It means New Zealand

    29. Re:disposable tech by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Do y'all spell it "tyres" with a y like the Brits do?

      I've always liked that one.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    30. Re:disposable tech by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      We do.

  12. It's sturdy like no other tablet before, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So unless there's a hardware-failure or you need to get a new display, both of which are likely to require service anyway, I am indifferent to this.

    1. Re:It's sturdy like no other tablet before, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I cannot find a single shop is my 1.2m-citizen city that will repair any tablets or modern smartphones.

    2. Re:It's sturdy like no other tablet before, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Weird, I live in a rather small town, but the local mall has a kiosk which specializes in the repair of smartphones and tablets --- esp. replacing broken displays.

    3. Re:It's sturdy like no other tablet before, though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's sturdy like no other tablet before, though

      [Citation Needed]

  13. I'm shocked ... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK, not really.

    For starters, I can't imagine it being easy to make a tablet you can open up and make changes to.

    And then every manufacturer would rather you replace the device when it breaks or needs upgrading. And if they can get you locked into their software, even better.

    Companies don't really care about consumers rights, and they never will. They're only in it to make profit -- I don't care who the vendor is, they'll all do it.

    Microsoft, Apple, and even Google since they're trying to drive everything you do to the things that make them money and make sure you have to keep buying their stuff.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:I'm shocked ... by neurojab · · Score: 3, Informative

      It IS possible to do better. The Nexus 7 and Kindle Fire HD both got 7 of 10 in repairability scores from iFixit. When the battery dies in my nexus 7 (and it will), I'll just buy a new battery and slap it in.

    2. Re:I'm shocked ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder how many people complaining here actually would buy a bulky tablet with lots of room for replacing components and what not.

      As things get smaller and smaller, this is only natural.

    3. Re:I'm shocked ... by WillAdams · · Score: 1

      The thing that kills me is that for a long while, the Fujitsu tablets had specific cradles for holding hard drives so that they could be swapped out w/ a single screw --- but that feature went away w/ the ST-4100 or thereabouts.

      I really miss it, and would be glad of the option of doing that on a newer device.

      William

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    4. Re:I'm shocked ... by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      It IS possible to do better

      Of course it's possible, but companies aren't explicitly planning for it, and in many cases I suspect actively not doing it because they don't want to -- why build it to allow you to fix it when you can pay them again?

      How many devices have we seen over the years which could have worked with standard hard drives, but they've injected some proprietary layer to make sure it isn't?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    5. Re:I'm shocked ... by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      For starters, I can't imagine it being easy to make a tablet you can open up and make changes to.

      Oh for fuck's sake, watches have been made for centuries and they're obviously repairable; there's nothing stopping Microsoft or Apple from making their products - no matter how slim or compact - from being repairable except the blatant greed of the sociopathic half-human fucks who run those companies...

    6. Re:I'm shocked ... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      OK, not really.

      For starters, I can't imagine it being easy to make a tablet you can open up and make changes to.

      Stop fetishising about a seam free bezel and use screws or clips to hold the case together.
      Use a connector for your battery cables.

      No that's it. That's all that needs to be done. Most other components already use some form of connector like flat cables on screens and are already easy to replace. The reality is if someone can disassemble the device without breaking it then replacing damaged components is something a monkey with a soldering iron can do.

      That's why the trend on iFixit is that it takes longer and longer to open the case than it does to replace the faulty component, many of which such as screens and batteries are easily findable on ebay even for the irreparable iPhones.

  14. Brave New World by dkleinsc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Ending is better than mending. The more stitches, the less riches."
    -Aldous Huxley

    Of course a consumer society isn't supposed to have anything that can be repaired by a normal human being. If you want anything, you're supposed to cough up your hard-earned cash to your corporate overlords.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:Brave New World by PintoPiman · · Score: 1

      Aldus lived in a different reality. Mass production was just getting started then, but it's in full-swing now. We're really good at making things but not as good at repairing things. That should make sense - you can automate making because it's the same every time. You cannot automate repairing because different things break, or the same thing breaks but in different ways.

      This is the same principle that leads to things like 0-ohm resistors. The gains from automation are so big that they swamp any extra cost here and there for extra components, etc.

      It used to take days of labor to make a sock and hours to mend one. Now it takes seconds of labor to make one and... hours to mend one. Replacing instead of repairing isn't wasteful, it's efficient.

  15. Less repairable and moving parts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not only it is less repairable iPad, but it also has moving parts(two fans).
    The short battery life also ensures the battery will go through more cycles faster.

  16. Link o iFixit by Leafheart · · Score: 4, Informative

    Really guys, the summary is copied from the first paragraph on the wired article, which has the link to the iFixt teardown, was it that difficult to keep the link? http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Pro+Teardown/12842/

    --
    --- "When you gotta do something wrong. You gotta do it right. (Fighter)"
    1. Re:Link o iFixit by crywalt · · Score: 1

      I was wondering this myself. Why link to a summary of the article on Wired when you could just link to the original? Is someone at Wired getting paid for the extra eyeballs?

  17. Well that's the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft and the rest of the manufacturers hawking tablets at the moment don't really want you to -think- about them too much...because the more you start to think, the more you realize... Hey, my desktop or laptop already does everything that does. And more besides. Plus it actually costs less, has more storage space, runs the operating system I choose, so on and so forth... The problem is they're not selling enough new hardware, and enough new licenses for said hardware...solution? Release hardware that can't be upgraded. Get people on the upgrade "treadmill" thinking they're getting a better deal, up until they actually have to repair the thing. If the only easy option available is "get another tablet" that's what most people are going to do, even if it is a phenomenally bad idea -- because there won't be any other choice.

  18. why repair when you can replace by goblinspy · · Score: 0

    Who wants to keep an old 1 year old tablet if there are new shinier things in the next year.

  19. This is not news by jamesl · · Score: 1

    High volume consumer devices have been not-repairable for years. If it fails during warranty, you get a new or "refurbished" unit for free. If it fails outside of warranty you may get a new or "refurbished" unit at lower than list price. Or you may not.

    Short of sliding it off the table onto a concrete floor at Starbucks, the failure rate on these should be vanishingly small.

    If you're really worried, you can "Protect your Surface with a 2-year extended warranty and technical support service." for $99. Best Buy will sell you a "Product Replacement Plan" for a price.

    You pays your money and you takes your chances.

    1. Re:This is not news by mister_playboy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Best Buy will sell you a "Product Replacement Plan" for a price.

      When the BB cashier offers a warranty plan, I like to respond by saying I don't think the company will still exist in 2 years... :)

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    2. Re:This is not news by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      High volume consumer devices have been not-repairable for years. If it fails during warranty, you get a new or "refurbished" unit for free.

      ...

      Do you know not what the word "refurbished" means?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:This is not news by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Hopefully the two tiny fans don't inhale any dust, or exhibit the reliability that tiny fans on video cards have been cursed for for years now...

      At least most sealed modules aren't air-breathers with moving parts.

    4. Re:This is not news by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      It means they take a unit someone else has returned as broken. Wipe it with a rag to get rid of the finger prints and send it to you.

    5. Re:This is not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it means to furbish a second time.

    6. Re:This is not news by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It means they take a unit someone else has returned as broken. Wipe it with a rag to get rid of the finger prints and send it to you.

      At the hardware company I worked for we would run a batch of tests first, but, yes, that's essentially it. People would buy our hardware from a store, take it home, try it out, decide they didn't like it and return it, and we could no longer then sell it as new. So we'd have to raise the price to everyone in order to pay for people who abused easy return policies.

    7. Re:This is not news by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      It means they take a unit someone else has returned as broken. Wipe it with a rag to get rid of the finger prints and send it to you.

      While it's still broken?

      C'mon, man, you know what I'm getting at, don't play dumb.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    8. Re:This is not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You tell 'em! That'll show those minimum wage cashier college kids who's boss.

    9. Re:This is not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple stock went down over 40% in the last few months and Best Buy made a profit last quarter and is rated as one of the top retail companies to work for. I see Apple going bankrupt again before Best Buy goes out of business. But then again, I don't live under a rock.

    10. Re:This is not news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should work on selling things people like, instead.

    11. Re:This is not news by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Mostly irrelevant to the article, but going by both the published drop tests and the unexpected durability tests when a Surface slid off the roof of a guy's car on the highway and was run over by another car, you're likely to do a lot mode damage to your Surface by trying to service it than you are by sliding it off any reasonable-height table onto any likely floor surface. Short version to save you some searching the web: even the one that flew off the car and was driven over didn't need servicing afterward, although there was some cosmetic damage.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    12. Re:This is not news by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Yup. Let's see you saying that it doesn't need servicing, after the device inhales dust for a year.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  20. Virtually or Literally? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So virtually unrepairable would mean it's not really unrepairable, right?

    http://cutewriting.blogspot.com/2009/04/literally-practically-and-virtually.html

    1. Re:Virtually or Literally? by mister_playboy · · Score: 2

      It means you can't repair it unless you leave the holodeck first. Freakin' DRM, I tell ya...

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    2. Re:Virtually or Literally? by Freshly+Exhumed · · Score: 1

      And why isn't it irreparable, as opposed to unrepairable? The both pass the dictionary test, but...

      virtually unrepariable
      virtually irreparable
      literally unrepairable
      literally irreparable

      I like that last one best.

      --
      I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
    3. Re:Virtually or Literally? by gmuslera · · Score: 1

      It's broken by design anyway, why worry?

  21. or it's armored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The other posibility is that it's armored to be drop-resistant. Just saying.

  22. Thinness, weight and repairability by Missing.Matter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's a direct trade-off between thinness/weight and repairability. As it stands the device is already being heavily criticized for being just 0.5" thick and weighing 2 lbs. To get it even at that point, apparently glue had to be used in place of a lot of fasteners that make repairing easy. Now I expect we'll see the same people criticizing it for weight/thickness also criticizing it for not having a removable battery, hard drive, and memory, all of which add weight/thickness. Dell's Latitude 10 comes in fixed and removable battery configurations, the later weighs 0.04 lbs more. Keep in mind while it's not much, the margin between Surface and its closet competitors like iPad are 0.1" thickness and 0.5 lbs, so every bit counts.

    So like everything there's a choice. Do you want a core i5 processor or do you want a long battery life? Do you want a super thin machine, or do you want an easy to repair machine?

    1. Re:Thinness, weight and repairability by Joshua+Fan · · Score: 1

      Too bad I don't have any points to mod you up right now, it's time someone talked sense around here. All these FOSSheads ultracompact devices to be fully modular, and they'll never stop complaining until they have everything... except with computers, which can always be faster.

  23. Wastre Tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would impose some kind of waste tax. Stuff that gets broken / unusable too quickly and leaving only special waste behind should be more expensive than long-life devices. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished though.

    1. Re:Wastre Tax by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Make a law that requires manufacturers to accept back all devices that fail or are no longer wanted (so they don't become part of the pollution) ... with the requirement to pay a prorated value during the warranty period (that they must state in all advertising and must be no less than either 1 year, or for devices with contract term period, no less than that term period). If it's past the warranty, you still get to ship the device to the manufacturer for them to recycle at their cost (you pay shipping ... but don't bother insuring it).

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Wastre Tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh brilliant. So the state gets money, the consumer gets to pay more and stuff ends up getting broken just as much.

      You people are just fucking *geniuses*.

  24. Since the VCR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost all consumer electronic devices have been disposable.

  25. Slashdot + internet stahp! by m1ndcrash · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    Can you stop this explainable hatred on this tablet? It's a tool aimed at professionals like myself. I want productivity and ability to work with a full OS, not a castrated version barely capable of browsing porn. When iPad/Android will be able to run Diablo 3 on maximum settings we will have an adult discussion.

    1. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Can you stop this explainable hatred on this tablet?

      Can we stop the irrational hatred of Apple too? Or are you doing the usual fanboi thing?

      When iPad/Android will be able to run Diablo 3 on maximum settings we will have an adult discussion.

      Sorry, but when did porn and Diablo 3 is the benchmark for utility? Did I miss a memo?

      Enjoy your 5 hour battery life, I'll stick with the 10 I get out of my original iPad.

      Glad you like your Surface Pro -- but that doesn't mean people aren't getting a lot of use and utility out of both iPad and Android tablets.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 0

      You've come to the wrong place if you wanted constructive criticism - Slashdot it only interested in positive reinforcement that Microsoft is doomed and anything it produces is in every way inferior to anything else on the market. You'll see no article that shines any positive light on MS here.

      So please take your facts & reason and take them elsewhere :)

      But in all seriousness, the Surface Pro is a great device - laptop & tablet in one. Yes there's some trade-offs but no other tablet let's you run legacy WinApps in quite such style, IMO.

      --
      throw new NoSignatureException();
    3. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Skapare · · Score: 1

      I have an irrational hatred of all corporations that have not earned my trust. Let me know when Apple does something that warrants my hard to earn trust.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    4. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by tgd · · Score: 1

      Can you stop this explainable hatred on this tablet? It's a tool aimed at professionals like myself. I want productivity and ability to work with a full OS, not a castrated version barely capable of browsing porn. When iPad/Android will be able to run Diablo 3 on maximum settings we will have an adult discussion.

      Its just another example of the daily anti-Microsoft drivel. Some days its better than others, but all days it gets their target audience whipped up into a near-orgasmic frenzy of glee.

    5. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enjoy your 5 hour battery life, I'll stick with the 10 I get out of my original iPad.

      Translation: "I'm actually quite jealous of you because I can do less, for longer, with my original iPad."

      Seriously, the fucking memo you missed is the one that says "Please, fanbois, stop comparing the iToy tablets with a True Scotsman PC in tablet form factor."

      Or did you really want a huge list of all the reasons the Surface Pro beats the original iPad except for two categories of battery life and ~.5lb weight difference, and make me say do some fucking CURLS again?

    6. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Alioth · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is a open source/unix fans site. If you want a site that's pro or balanced towards Microsoft, go and start Cee Colon Backslash Dot.

    7. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Yosho · · Score: 1

      It's a tool aimed at professionals like myself ... to run Diablo 3 on maximum settings

      I'm curious, what sort of environment do you work in that you need a professional tool for playing Diablo 3?

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    8. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by tgd · · Score: 1

      Enjoy your 5 hour battery life, I'll stick with the 10 I get out of my original iPad.

      Glad you like your Surface Pro -- but that doesn't mean people aren't getting a lot of use and utility out of both iPad and Android tablets.

      And, you enjoy your iPad while I get 30 days of battery life out of my Kindle.

      Wait, is that comparing two completely different devices? Yeah, you're probably right, so I'll enjoy the 10-12 hours of battery life I get out of the "original" Surface.

    9. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

      Isn't a technology enthusiast site first & foremost?

      If you want a site that's pro or balanced towards Microsoft, go and start Cee Colon Backslash Dot.

      Interesting how you say "balanced to Microsoft" - is that an admission this place is just a PR machine against it? I'm really asking as sincerely as I can.

      --
      throw new NoSignatureException();
    10. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by guttentag · · Score: 1

      Can you stop this explainable hatred on this tablet?

      If it's as explainable as you say you should understand why we can't stop it. If its inexplicable, then you will never understand why we can't stop it, because we can't explain it to you.

      It's a tool aimed at professionals like myself. I want productivity and ability to work with a full OS, not a castrated version barely capable of browsing porn. When iPad/Android will be able to run Diablo 3 on maximum settings we will have an adult discussion.

      OK, you start off calling yourself a professional, but then you complain about castration, inability to view porn and promise "adult discussion." Exactly what sort of "professional" are you, sir?

    11. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by m1ndcrash · · Score: 1

      If one could see behind angry metaphors and use a little bit of deductive sense, a conclusion could be made: a) being on slashdot makes a person somewhat involved in IT industry b) looking for performance (e.g. a video game) c) looking for a functional OS that would satisfy things like corporate integration and legacy software Having said that, you, sir are a troll and should be modded as such.

    12. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by eek_the_kat · · Score: 1

      People play Diablo 3?

    13. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by rtfa-troll · · Score: 1

      You've come to the wrong place if you wanted constructive criticism - Slashdot it only interested in positive reinforcement that Microsoft is blah blah blah blah.

      When did the Microsoft shills become such whiny shits? All through this article there are hundreds of posts about how Slashdot is terribly biased. There are posts saying "show me a tablet which isn't impossible to repair" just below other people's comments saying "look at Google's Nexus 7 where you can just open the back and change the battery".

      Guys; man up. This really isn't such a big deal. There is a legitimate review from a legitimate tear down site. They give a clear justification for giving a bad rating. They also gave other products bad ratings when they deserved it. If Microsoft ever makes a good product in future I'm sure you will get a good revew. You get a few negative comments on Slashdot; people have the right to make bad comments when you try to rip them off. Just take it like a man; treat the surface tablets as a lesson; learn to make a good product next time and move on.

      Instead of that it's this terrible Microsoft persecution complex. "everybody's out to get us"; "everyone picks on us, not apple" (totally untrue there was also an anti-apple story before they improved their iPhone 5) Slashdot is biased (again not true; any time there might even be a slight misrepresentation against Microsoft there's always a shill ready to pile on and they always get modded to the heaven). blah blah blah. Give it up.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    14. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering a lot of i Users that I've run into are of the "I can do this, you can't" or "I have this and you don't" type, it's definitely a "benchmark" (omg 100k apps!).

    15. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      The fact is iPads sell like hotcakes, while windows based tablets have been around for years and have never taken off.

      While there is *more* software for windows tablets, virtually none of it is designed for a tablet form factor and so while you can use it, it will be extremely frustrating or require you to attach a keyboard in which case you could just as well have bought a cheaper laptop.
      You *could* compile decades worth of open source unix based software to run on your ipad or android device too, and the reason noone does is because such software was never designed for such an input method and would be awkward to use.

      When it comes to applications which are actually designed for and usable on a tablet form factor, both ipad and android have far more of them.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    16. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      When it comes to PR, follow the money...

      There is noone willing to pay people to be anti-ms and pro-linux online, people who take this viewpoint are doing so entirely on their own.
      Yet it has been shown that ms have paid people to spread pro-ms propaganda.

      And as for technology enthusiasts, i fail to see how any true enthusiast could be enthusiastic about a closed system which they are only renting.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    17. Re:Slashdot + internet stahp! by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

      Are you really suggesting there's no-one that has vested interest in seeing MSFT do badly?

      --
      throw new NoSignatureException();
  26. Much huff about nothing by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

    Let's be realistic. Tablets and phones are pretty much assumed *NOT* to have any user serviceable parts in them. Hell, even laptops -- I don't recall these ever being held to that standard and they had a much better chance of ever getting user-upgradable CPU/RAM/Harddrive features. Most people could never take the damn things apart to upgrade them anyway. It's only been the recent last 8 years or so the Dell has removable plates next to the ram -- the CPU has always been buried. So stop with all the arm waving about how these devices are "tarred" together and can't have the battery replaced. Until someone comes out with a FULLY USER UPGRADEABLE phone or tablet, there's no point in beating anyone up over it.

    --
    Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    1. Re:Much huff about nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are being unrealistic, this isn't about user upgrades like PCs, you created that strawman. This is about repairability. Batteries are high fail rate components, that's a fact of life and will be for the forseable future. There's no need to dump a perfectly working device because the battery performance is down to 27% charge length, or has gone into "I'm dead" memory mode and will no accept a charge.

      Unless substandard components have been used, like the terrible capacitors used a few years ago, electronics should last for decades. Ensuring the consumer cannot replace the battery, and have people like you defending them, they have successfully created their wet-dreams. Product that are fine, but have to be thrown away, just as in Fordism in Brave New World.

    2. Re:Much huff about nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are being unrealistic, this isn't about user upgrades like PCs, you created that strawman. This is about repairability. Batteries are high fail rate components, that's a fact of life and will be for the forseable future. There's no need to dump a perfectly working device because the battery performance is down to 27% charge length, or has gone into "I'm dead" memory mode and will no accept a charge.

      Unless substandard components have been used, like the terrible capacitors used a few years ago, electronics should last for decades. Ensuring the consumer cannot replace the battery, and have people like you defending them, they have successfully created their wet-dreams. Product that are fine, but have to be thrown away, just as in Fordism in Brave New World.

      It's about more than repairability. Leaving aside the idea that replacing the battery is a risky proposition, there are still a few of us who believe that we should be able to transcend the device as it comes from the manufacturer. It's true that when most of the electronics are embedded in a single specialized chip, your options for minor improvements are more limited, but when simply opening a device destroys everything, your William Gibson future goes right down the drain. Why shouldn't I be able to recycle the screen from a broken tablet into a fridge-mounted display unit, for example?

      Roomba understood this. That's why they added a programming jack to their units.

    3. Re:Much huff about nothing by bws111 · · Score: 1

      You can do whatever you want with the device, nobody will stop you. However, there is also no reason for anybody to make it easy to do whatever you want.

      Roomba did what they did because they think it will help them sell more devices. The addition of a programming jack costs virtually nothing, and people who don't care about programming are not going to avoid the device just because the jack is there. The addition of the programming jack is a net win for Roomba.

      On the other hand, tablet manufacturers, etc also do who they do because they think it will help them sell more devices. Making a device repairable involves tradeoffs in terms of weight, size, etc. If gluing the back on, or squashing more and more components together in single unit (even if if means you can't get to the individual components anymore) will let them make the device a fraction of an inch thinner, that is what they are going to do. Why? Because people want thin devices. Every review you see of a device is going to include weight and size, and comparisons to other manufacturers devices. If manufacturers thought for one second that a screwed-on back or more accessible components would let them sell more devices than a glued-on back they would make it in a heartbeat.

      There are devices where the manufacturer specifically tries to destroy the device if you attempt to open or modify it. These are usually security devices like crypto processors, and again that self-destruction is a feature that most of their customers want. The manufacturers of tablets, etc don't do that. They are not intentionally making it difficult for you to do something else with the device, they are just not making it easy. In short, they don't care (and there is no reason they should).

  27. The only thing to score lower... by AC-x · · Score: 1

    The iPad 2 Smart Cover, the only thing to score lower at a pitiful 0 out of 10! </joke>

  28. unrepairable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course you can repair it: http://www.phonearena.com/news/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-can-run-Linux_id39712

  29. No one wants a repairable tablet by the+computer+guy+nex · · Score: 2

    To make a tablet that can be easily repairable and upgradable, you are making concessions on the size and weight of the product.

    Fact is the majority of consumers couldn't repair their tablet even if it scored '10 of 10'. Given the choice, they would choose the thinner and lighter product every time.

    1. Re:No one wants a repairable tablet by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Yes, you sometimes need concessions. For example, sockets and slots take valuable space and may be points of failure, this is why I have no real problem when manufacturers decide to solder everything to the main board. Same thing for these fused digitizer/screens, it prevents dust and moisture from entering, which is a very good thing.
      But what is the reason behind glued batteries ? If the space inside a device is that well managed, the battery should have no room left to move around, meaning that glue is superfluous. Also, user replacable batteries are not just good for repairability. There is the ability to use spare batteries and a way to really turn off the device (by removing the battery).
      And what about the glued screen ? I'm sure a few screws would have greatly imporved repairability while sacrificing maybe a few milligrams of weight and a few micons in size. There are already more than 90 screws inside the device, Would that be that much of a problem to make some of these accessible from the outside and avoid a dangerous operation with the heatgun.

  30. For Business A CAPEX Sink Hole by Freshly+Exhumed · · Score: 1

    The "unrepairable" Surface Pro (that Microsoft is aiming at business) is symbolic of an unfortunate trend in Corporate IT budgeting towards thinking of user devices as "burned money" with little or no long term benefit. While conventional laptops retain some value beyond the current quarter and a certain level of repair costs can be budgeted towards them, devices like the Surface Pro turn budgeting of such estimated costs into a total crap shoot.

    --
    I deny that I have not avoided attaining the opposite of that which I do not want.
    1. Re:For Business A CAPEX Sink Hole by Skapare · · Score: 1

      ... because "repair" cost is full price ... per unit ... times how many fails.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  31. Hype by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a lot of hype when it gets almost the exact same rating as the Macbook Pro. Not sure why they don't get the same flack.

    Face it, no one repairs electronics anymore so is this really an issue? How is this any different than 30 or 40 years ago when TVs started using transistors and you were unable to easily replace out your tubes yourself? As things get smaller and more compact they're just not going to be user servicable.

    1. Re:Hype by Skapare · · Score: 1

      A few things can still be fixed even in today's laptops and netbooks, like hard drive and wifi card.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    2. Re:Hype by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      " How is this any different than 30 or 40 years ago when TVs started using transistors and you were unable to easily replace out your tubes yourself?"

      Well, they switched from a component that had to be easy to replace because it burned out all the damn time under normal use to a component whose lifespan is measured in decades unless unlucky or badly abused...

      In this case, on the other hand, Li-ion batteries have pretty much the same time from manufacture to uselessness as they did 10 years ago. Treating it as some sort of MS-specific problem is, of course, nonsense; but transistorization was at least a reliability improvement to go along with a reduction in ease of service.

  32. is this a bad thing? by markhahn · · Score: 1

    I like modular designs - what programmer wouldn't?
    but there is no question that modularity constrains the overall design. the module itself must have a fixed interface, making it inefficient by varying degrees, depending on how far from the sweet spot you are. (imagine that cars had modular engines: would the module interface be big enough to handle a particular displacement? could you drop in a hybrid version?) not only are you loosing efficiency within the module, but the connected modules have to assume a fixed spec (drivetrain would have to handle a 250 HP engine even if you opted for the 70 HP model). all aspects of interface would be constrained - mechanical, spatial, electrical, etc.

    for a tablet, integration is usually a win: glueing is cheaper and more secure than screws, and smaller and lighter. integrating touch+lcd+backlight means that breaking it means replacing it all, but the integrated version is _inherently_ better because, for instance, touch+lcd electrodes can be integrated and even tuned to minimize interference.

    the main question is really where you draw the boundaries: is the tablet a whole, integrated unit, or a composite of replacable modules? to the customer, a replacable screen really only makes sense if you expect to break screens a lot (why?). batteries are in a different category, since they all have well-defined cycle-based lifespans. (though buttons do too - the difference is just that it's not expensive to engineer buttons to last a long time, and doing so doesn't impair the performance of the button. life-vs-performance is a very real tradeoff with batteries...)

  33. Couldn't this be reasonable? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why does something this simple need to be nefarious? Isn't there room for a common-sense explanation? Are you telling me the folks at iFixit could change the assembly to be just as small and durable without using any permanent fixtures? This is a geek website, surely some geeks can treat the design of an assembly as more than a black box that someone else needs to make "better."

    Given the effort that goes into minimizing devices, isn't it just possible that building tiny yet durable devices requires the use of less convenient assembly methods? A screw (and the accompanying boss) incrementally increase the required depth and bulk of the device. Adhesive can hold load over a much larger area, reducing stress and non-uniform movement. Maybe these merits mattered, and not some sinister need to lock in customers?

    Look at it this way: For some reason, iFixit complains about the number of screws holding in components (is it really that much harder to remove 29 screws than to remove 4?). Do they feel this is just to inhibit dis-assembly, given the added design and assembly cost and complexity for adding extra fasteners? I'm sure the design would use two screws if that was sufficient. As an owner, sure, it would be better if the battery was replaceable. But, considering home much real estate the battery occupies, and the need to secure that mass in a portable device, I am not surprised that the best solution for durability and size had to sacrifice repair-ability. Maybe the designers even took this into account when they saw fit to use "the Cadillac of batteries" in this device. A great battery may be a worthwhile cost when the battery can't be replaced.

    For anyone here who designs anything (physical or digital), aren't there real design constraints that add to the magnitude of your work? Maybe constraints that aren't obvious until you get into the nitty-gritty of making it work? What would you say if a casual observer asserted you made your choices primarily to piss off the end user? I'm not saying that never happens, but isn't the simplest explanation just that "that was the best way to solve a hard problem?"

  34. Really guys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look, I know /. loves to hate on Microsoft, and with good reason, but lets stick to real issues please?
    If anyone can name even one tablet that's easy to take apart and replace pieces, I'd be surprised.
    As a commenter above posted, it's far from impossible, it's just difficult.
    I know some some people also think replacing a processor and other bits and pieces of an ordinary desktop are "difficult" too.

  35. Did they put it back together? by dtjohnson · · Score: 2

    Anyone can take something apart. It only counts, though, if they get it back together AND it works again. How can they give that thing a "1" out of "10" if they were not able to make it run again? Wouldn't that be a "zero?" Finally, before anyone can say 'who wants to repair something like this, anyway?' let's just note that it's a $900 dollar device with a 1-year limited warranty. Why wouldn't you want to fix the earphone jack if it gets tweaked and will only play one channel, replace the battery if it dies, or put a new screen in if you drop it and it cracks? Those are all pretty common repairs for devices like this.

  36. It's your own fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because you keep giving them money for crap.

  37. $1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this. by guidryp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are a lot of responses here that say "All tablets are like that".

    First, Many of those tablets cost $200 (Nexus). It is a lot more acceptable to have a sealed $200 device than a sealed $1000 device, regardless of form factor.

    Second, Almost no other computing device is sealed to this extent with an inch wide strip of tar like adhesive that needs a heat-gun to pry apart (who knows how well it will go back together). I take nearly everything apart, but I would mess with this kind of extreme adhesive job, especially on a $1000 device.

    Third. It isn't even about repairs. If this was pure reliable solid state, it wouldn't be a big deal, those parts could run for decades. But this has two fans, meaning they will accumulate dust/have bearing failures, and in few years need replacing/cleaning, it has batteries with short finite life that will fail in few years, the SSD is small size and has an OS with propensity to write a lot to it (swap files) etc, and has a significant chance of failure. These should be considered serviceable components, because chances are significant that one or more of them will need service in a few years. Having them sealed, non-serviceable in $1000 device is unacceptable (IMO).

  38. Small parts and glue by Celarent+Darii · · Score: 1

    Anything with very small parts and lots of glue/epoxy is tough to repair, not just this thing. When you are paying someone close to $50 or even $100 an hour to repair something, he is going to take a lot of time to get those parts out and new ones in. In the great scheme of things it's not worth it, as you can just buy a new device in the amount of time it takes him to repair it.

    But most of the time the problems are actually software, not hardware - and people even "Repair" their ipads nowadays by just doing a reinstall (or restore or whatever it's called in iOS).

    1. Re:Small parts and glue by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

      Anything with very small parts and lots of glue/epoxy is tough to repair, not just this thing.

      I don't think anyone is arguing that. It seems to me that they are implying that all the extra glue and screws were intentionally added to MAKE is hard to repair..

    2. Re:Small parts and glue by Celarent+Darii · · Score: 1

      Well, perhaps, but I haven't seen any manufacturer make a tablet/smartphone that was EASY to repair. They are made as cheap as possible and are already obsolete by the time they are on the production line. Easy to repair are for things that last longer than two years.

  39. Oh slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You never skip even a single day of Micro$oft hate. No other tablet maker would be held to that standard, but hey, it's Micro$oft so let's bake them.

    1. Re:Oh slashdot by tehlinux · · Score: 1

      Damn straight. If you don't want a Surface, don't buy one and move on with your life.

      --
      Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
  40. Disposable tablets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should have a disposable price..

    This does not. I'll pass.. drop the price by 3/4ths and i'll think about having some throwaway non repairable stuff from a company i mostly dislike.

    1. Re:Disposable tablets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Translation: Even if you meet my pricepoint I'm just going to find another reason to cry about your product. I've never had any interest in actually buying one, I just want to hear myself talk.

  41. Warranty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is Microsoft's problem, not the buyer's. Why try to make this out like it's a bad thing. Totally irrelevant.

  42. This is just the way things are by mrstrano · · Score: 1

    Do you think that in the future you will be able to repair your flexible Amoled phone and personal computing device that has everything packaged in one chip? Things are getting smaller, faster and lighter. The fact that they cannot be repaired it's inevitable, live with it.

  43. It can by Mike+Frett · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It can be repaired, it's just difficult to get inside due to the strong epoxy and 90+ screws all around. And for the Apple haters, I see lots of repair shops repairing iPhones and such.

    The problem is, the companies don't want you to repair it. They want you to buy a new one, hence why it's difficult to repair. This is the throwaway generation, it's all disposable. The trash piles up, but nobody notices until it's in their backyard and their water starts tasting like epoxy and baby diapers.

    Even Cars are are so tight under the hood these days, a lot of mechanics I know don't go near them. Have you even tried to reach through all that shit to change a spark plug? Good luck getting your hand out of the wires and metal without a lost thumb.

    Bottom line, modern products are shit with pretty packaging so the youngsters think it's good. When it breaks, (Usually within 1 year) no big deal, mom and dad will get a new one. Just throw it over there in the trash and lets take a trip down to the mall. What a shitty world, but hey, there's money to be made in them their hills!.

  44. FTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft made some unnecessary choices — like gluing the battery in place and using so many screws — that make it virtually impossible to repair a Surface Pro

    This is an opinion.... just like the low score you gave it.

  45. "No user serviceable parts inside" by westlake · · Score: 1

    Not repairable without the technical training and tool kits that are almost unknown outside the skilled trades.

    That would describe every high end consumer electronics device manufactured since the decline of Heathkit and the electronic kit building hobby in the seventies.

  46. Apple does this and by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wants to charge you 249 for Apple Care which does not cover accidental damage, Microsoft offers 2 year coverage with accidental damage coverage for $99, and it's all over the headlines that the Surface Pro is unrepairable. I never saw this much news coverage when Apple introduced sealed batteries., MS does it and it's on the front page everywhere. Yep no bias anywhere I can see

    1. Re:Apple does this and by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Apple Care is extended warranty and support, not insurance. If you want insurance then you should buy insurance.

  47. Same Score as a Macbook Pro Retina by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But no one is making that comparison here.

  48. Glued and Screwed by guttentag · · Score: 1

    The Wired article describes the Surface Pro as "glued and screwed," which seems to be a double entendre, referring to the construction of the device and the status of the repair-minded purchaser.

    I also find it interesting that the device needs two fans. For me, part of the appeal of a tablet is the departure from the idea of it as a traditional computer. You can do many of the things you would do on a computer, but the computer gets out of the way and the device is more focused on becoming a more natural, simple, ultra-portable human interface. In many ways, it's about as close as you can come to a digital piece of paper. Somehow the idea of requiring a fan at all (let alone two fans) just seems anathema. If someone handed me a sheet of loose leaf with two fans embedded in it, my reaction would probably be something along the lines of: "What the hell is this? Microsoft makes paper now? Is the sheet supposed to be blue like that?"

    1. Re:Glued and Screwed by Shados · · Score: 1

      Well, the Surface Pro is technically a normal lap-top with a tablet form factor. Its not a tablet at all, so it will sacrifice some of real tablet's advantages to be able to get the typical wintel hardware/software in. Fans are then kind of expected.

  49. Obviously ... by garry_g · · Score: 1

    ... devices like the iJunk aren't unrepairable enough (given the repair documents found in the Internet), so M$ had to show they are still better than Apple ...

  50. And it will break sooner than any other tablet by blind+biker · · Score: 1

    This piece of crap has not one but TWO fans - of course, necessary to remove the huge amount of heat that this monster generates. Those fans are a serious weak point.

    I mean, what the fuck is the point of going all solid-state and then cramming two fucking fans into the tablet?

    Anyway, this tablet is the thickest of all on the market. It's the heaviest also and still has a miserable battery life. Oh, and it runs the quintessential POS OS - Windows 8. This is the tablet for suckers - luckily for Microsoft, every minute one is borne.

    --
    "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
  51. Re:No User Serviceable Parts Inside by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 2

    Some kid managed to kill himself while taking apart an unplugged power supply. I'm not sure how he managed to electrocute himself off a capacitor, but it's definitely possible.

  52. And that's not all... by LodCrappo · · Score: 1

    There are also no PCI slots and a serious lack of available 5.25 in drive bays. WTF microsoft?!?

    --
    -Lod
  53. Wrong Comparison by mattsday · · Score: 5, Informative

    They compare it to the iPad, which is pretty bad to repair... However, as a general purpose computer running a full OS, a fair comparison would also be the MacBook Pro Retina.
    http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook-Pro-with-Retina-Display-Teardown/9462/ ...1 out of 10 as well.

    This is a bad trend with custom screws, glue and all sorts of crap.

    --
    Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
    1. Re:Wrong Comparison by PickyH3D · · Score: 1

      Isn't that the nature of incredibly complex, thin designs?

      I took apart an old iPhone 3G that was messed up to look around inside after the Gazelle purchase program broke the phone and cut their offer down enormously, looking for evidence that they had swapped the phones (the device had different scars than the original, while the original only had one tiny one). I was looking for serial numbers on the inside to prove that it had changed, but I never did find anything usable.

      Anyway, tight spaces require intricate designs. Honestly, I think 90 screws sounds like it is overdoing it, but the glue and cables around such a dense, high resolution screen are not surprising in the least. If you don't want super thin devices, then I suspect that they can make them more repairable. As time progresses, I imagine their designs will simplify and they will become easier to repair, even if regular users remain in the dark.

    2. Re:Wrong Comparison by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Using a pentalobe screw where a standard slotted one would do fine has nothing to do with the complexity or the thinness of the design.

      I'd by that with torx screws which solved a specific manufacturing problem, but few designs since have been anything other than an attempt to prevent consumers from opening devices they purchased.

  54. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps you are forgetting the Palm Vx.

  55. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by Missing.Matter · · Score: 2

    First, Many of those tablets cost $200 (Nexus). It is a lot more acceptable to have a sealed $200 device than a sealed $1000 device, regardless of form factor.

    I'm not sure I see the connection between price and acceptable levels of serviceability. Is it that if it's cheap and breaks, you can buy another so it's no big deal; but if it's expensive then you should be able to repair it? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure many people agree with you. The iPad and iPad mini received almost as bad a score (2/10 each), and yet they are wildly successful. It seems that the only people that have a problem with this practice are people like you that like to take things apart.

    Second, Almost no other computing device is sealed to this extent with an inch wide strip of tar like adhesive that needs a heat-gun to pry apart (who knows how well it will go back together).

    Again, the aforementioned market-leading iPads are sealed in this way. Whether it's the $300 version or the $900 version the response to a broken iPad is the same for the vast majority of users: send it back for warranty repair. If it's out of warranty, pay to have it fixed. Even something with a 7/10 repairability rating like the Nexus 7 is too complicated for most people.

    Third. It isn't even about repairs. If this was pure reliable solid state, it wouldn't be a big deal, those parts could run for decades. But this has two fans, meaning they will accumulate dust/have bearing failures, and in few years need replacing/cleaning, it has batteries with short finite life that will fail in few years, the SSD is small size and has an OS with propensity to write a lot to it (swap files) etc, and has a significant chance of failure.

    Aside from the fans, almost every mobile phone and tablet today has a solid state drive and a battery, which are not user replaceable. Fans are unique the Surface, but I've yet to own a laptop where the fan was the first component to give. And yes the Surface is expensive but it doesn't change the reaction to what should be done when something goes wrong: send it back for repairs. Microsoft offers a very reasonable support plan for $99 that covers accidental damage for two years. This is a much more preferable option for the vast majority of people than servicing something like fans and batteries themselves.

  56. Re:No User Serviceable Parts Inside by Jhon · · Score: 2

    My guess is the jolt stopped his heart -- and that it wasn't a teeny weeny 150w ps. I used to reverse solder caps for fun at the workshop. They create quite the BANG when plugged in. Stunk like bad shrimp, though.

  57. Should these devices even be legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is one thing building a cheap sane tablet using ARM and Android, with the proviso that significant damage or malfunction will write the product off (actually, usually untrue, because THESE tablets can be opened for minor repair work). It is another thing altogether to build a vastly expensive, full blown Intel/Windows computer into a profoundly delicate form factor that will inevitably have to be binned following the first significant accident, or any internal problems with the hardware.

    This is definitely one of those places where government regulation is required. Consumer products should, whenever practical, be repairable by law. To be allowed to manufacture a 'disposable' version of anything should require a demonstration of compelling reason- almost always price.

    Apple started this trend with desktop computers that were incapable of 'expansion' by design- no memory upgrades, no HDD upgrades, no GPU upgrades. These computers were anything but cheap, and were attempting to build in near future obsolescence to ensure Apple-loving dumbos would need to replace their machines on a very regular basis.

    All Apple mobile devices (phones and tablets) are notoriously easy to break- actually far more so than the competition. While Apple worries about quality control (avoiding break-down due to part malfunction), they DEMAND that their mobile devices wear out as quickly as possible in normal use, through expected wear-and-tear.

    While this article is about Microsoft, we have all witnessed how MS's current biz strategy is to clone every aspect of Apple's thinking, in the hope that the magic is to be found within.

    Just as companies are required to make many devices power-friendly, and to control radio frequency leakage, there should be equal regulation on the limitations of 'disposable' engineering. Mid and hi-end tablets should be repairable by law, and if this means they have to be build a little thicker- well TOUGH!

    1. Re:Should these devices even be legal? by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Apple can repair your device, both within and without warranty. Things can always be repaired, the key point is that it may not be something that everyone can do by themself in their living room. This is a bad thing yes, but it make other things better. You can make things smaller, lighter and actually more robust by eliminating things like hinges and hatches.

      And when you actually don't want it anymore you can send it back and have it recycled.

      Yeah, should be totally illegal.

  58. Which moron wrote the article? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Inside, iFixit found the Surface Pro’s fans are significantly smaller than the MacBook Air’s, explaining why they are so quiet in comparison."

    No, that doesn't explain why they are quiet - large fans are quiter than small fans, for a given volume of air.

    "The 42Wh battery from LG also impressed the crew, which dubbed it the “Cadillac of batteries.” Unfortunately, it’s still not enough to keep the Surface Pro from running more than around four hours without a power supply."

    To "keep it FROM running"? WTF? I think he means "it's still not enough to keep the Surface Pro running for more than around four hours" (no need to state the bleedin' obvious - that that means WITHOUT a power supply).

  59. Umm.. by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    To get it even at that point, apparently glue had to be used in place of a lot of fasteners that make repairing easy.

    In addition to the fuckton of glue (mainly to keep people out), there are +90 screws! I don't think a mid-60's automobile would have 90 screws.

    Only Microsoft could pull off the feat of using a boatload of conventional fasteners and still make the hardware practically irrepreble. Hamfisted jackanapes.

  60. 132 is even worse. by postofreason · · Score: 4, Funny

    132 is even worse.

  61. Re:No User Serviceable Parts Inside by nmr_andrew · · Score: 1

    It really depends on how large of a cap and what type and how it's used. Some will store quite a significant charge, some will hold on to a charge for a very long time, some do both. On our equipment, we have RF amplifiers that put out hundreds of watts and contain caps that could easily hurt or possibly kill you, but these have power supplies in them that are just a tad larger than a standard PC.

  62. Re:No User Serviceable Parts Inside by Khyber · · Score: 3, Informative

    Those capacitors are large enough to store enough charge to stop your heart.

    All he likely did was bridge pos and neg when touching the board and ZAP!

    This is pretty much well-known to anyone with electronics experience. If that kid didn't know WTF was up, he shouldn't have been taking that thing apart without proper supervision.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  63. Non-repairable devices are fine... by Beorytis · · Score: 1

    ...as long as they don't ever break.

  64. Bad example by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    By your reasoning, modern cars wouldn't even have hoods that open.

    They continue to do so only because there are a number of fluids that need regular changing, and a hood is still the simplest answer to the whole problem - one that really does not add to weight nor space.

    And you wouldn't be able to change the air filter.

    That's an absurd statement because, like an oil filter, the air filter is one of the items you are required to replace regularly. That doesn't simplify or save weight, it just ignores how engines function.

    And tires that were impossible to remove & change

    Again that would not save space nor weight and ignores the fact that those parts MUST be replaced regularly. There is simply no equivalent on a computer.

    And a car battery that couldn't be user-replaced.

    This is where your argument fails. Because car batteries do last several years, a number of car manufacturers have in fact put car batteries in places that are hard to get to, and also somewhat complex to replace.

    Or wipers you can replace. Or lightbulbs. Or oil.

    Again, all items that wear out rapidly and HAVE to be replaced a number of times in the average lifecycle of a car. It's a stupid argument because computers have no parts that you are EXPECTED to replace repeatedly in the average lifetime of the device.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Bad example by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Even though the oil filter must be replaced, some cars have them located where it requires the to be raised up. Growing up with older cars some of them had the filter easily reachable from the top of the engine. Same thing with the air filter. Old carburetor systems only had one wingnut between you and the air filter. My current car has six latches (2 of them requiring you to remove something else). The level of skill and equipment required has gone up. It is still serviceable technically just as the Surface Pro is serviceable just not for the average consumer.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    2. Re:Bad example by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I agree the skill to replace some items in some cars has gone up, but I was more responding to the original posters point that any of those things could be simply sealed away out of reach for anyone - it's just not the same situation as many modern computers where the expectation is that no-one (not even technicians) will ever have to repair or replace any components for most of the devices.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  65. Guitar amps by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    This has been going on for years with "Boutique" guitar amps... meaning, guitar amps that are hand-made, usually by 1 guy that only produces 100 or so a year. They are usually very expensive and coveted because the designer usually has tricks in the way he designs them that make them sound unique. Unfortunately for the people that build these, guitar tube amps are not very complicated. Reverse engineering them is usually very easy. So what they've resorted to is building their circuit, putting it into a box, and then filling the box with epoxy. Clearly they have to leaves the Tubes and transformers out so they can shed heat, but the rest of it gets embedded and the only way to take it apart is to destroy it.

    The caveat here is that these guys provide life-time support on what they produce. You need it fixed, THEY fix it. There's no need for right to repair. A nearly unlimited warranty makes this a non-issue. I don't see MS giving you any such warranty.

  66. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by Guppy · · Score: 1

    Fans are unique the Surface, but I've yet to own a laptop where the fan was the first component to give.

    Twice I've replaced fans in my laptop -- not because they failed (both times they were still spinning), but because the bearings had become distractingly noisy. Then again, this was a DTR machine (higher thermal load) which I used continuously for some 6-7 years, and then intermittently used for another 3 years after that.

  67. quite simply a pile of crap. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You cant fix or upgrade when a drive quits you lose all your local software and data.
    Perhaps it is for kids. A whole group of teens asked no shit whats that that kids is a soldering iron.

  68. Car analogy by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    Would anyone think of repairing a car tyre by cutting the rubber apart to weld a broken steel belt and then put the rubber back together again? No, you chuck the tyre away and buy a new one. It is about the same cost, so why would anyone want to repair a small electronic device?

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  69. hard to avoid for thin/light devices by Chirs · · Score: 2

    The thinner and lighter the device, the more likely it is that they're going to stiffen things up by gluing components together and turning them into structural elements.

  70. they don't care about you by Chirs · · Score: 1

    If what you care about isn't what most people care about, then you may have few if any options.

    If the number of people that care about repairability is tiny, then it doesn't make sense for manufacturers to cater to them.

  71. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even something with a 7/10 repairability rating like the Nexus 7 is too complicated for most people.

    Probably more that they wouldn't even try. Any moron could change the battery in a Nexus 7. Pop off the back, unplug the old batter, plug in a new one and snap the back back on. Then again they wouldn't bother to figure this out.

  72. Technology. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    As a child in the 80s I remember an electronics repair shop right around the corner from a friend's house. Even back then this guy's business was already struggling and there was a lot of stuff he couldn't repair. He was out of business well before the end of the decade. This is the inevitable trend in technology as components get smaller and more complex. Even if you could open one of these devices what are you going to do with it?

    Why single out Microsoft? Has anyone ever seen disassembly videos for the iPhone 5? The phone uses so many screws with minute differences in size that people have to download a guide to keep track of where they go. There are small metal plates in that phone held down by three different sized screws. Where the Surface Pro merely looks like a product manufacturing and packaging requirements with the iPhone it looks like they were deliberately trying to cause inconvenience.

    1. Re:Technology. by metaforest · · Score: 1

      I learned to surf that wave in the 70's. When the going gets tough, the tough go surfing...

      When the waves die down... you go back into business repairing the new shit.

      Wet, apply, lather, rinse, repeat.

  73. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by nightfury · · Score: 1

    If you've ever worked in the private sector for a business that is subject to HIPAA and/or PCI regulations, you'll know that sending it back for repairs is a problem. With laptops that have issues, you're often required to remove the hard drive before shipping it to the manufacturer. This cannot be reasonably done on a surface pro. The very people that have the biggest problem with a sealed device such as the surface pro are the exact same people that Microsoft is primarily relying on selling the surface pro to.

  74. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Translation: we suck at fixing things.

    Pros don't complain with the job at hand, they find a way. Thats what makes them a pro. Only an amateur bitches about the job.

  75. "repair"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just download another one and 3D print it! With material from the 195B$ private space asteroid! Why are people even worried about old ideas like "repairing"? Are you Luddites?

  76. Malware? by maxwells_deamon · · Score: 1

    If a virus or other malware were to come along, lots of these machines could be bricked all in a single week, If you can't get inside to repair them you are basically SOL.

  77. Re:$1000 tablets don't deserve a free ride on this by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure I see the connection between price and acceptable levels of serviceability. Is it that if it's cheap and breaks, you can buy another so it's no big deal; but if it's expensive then you should be able to repair it? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure many people agree with you.

    If a $30 toy car breaks, I buy a new one. It just isn't worth the effort to fix it.

    If a $30k car breaks, I fix it or sell it to somebody who will fix it. That isn't exactly a throwaway item.

    The more you pay for something, the longer you're likely to want it to live. A $1000 tablet that lasts 6 years is a much less expensive investment than a $1000 tablet that lasts 2 years.

  78. Re:No User Serviceable Parts Inside by metaforest · · Score: 1

    It is fairly easy to create conditions where an unexpected fatality can occur:

    The innards of laptop running on batteries can deliver a fatal shock in a number of ways.

    Proper training is a must, even for low-voltage work. It doesn't much of a mistake to achieve conduction across the heart. It only takes a few milliamps of flow to start cardiac-arrest. You only get to make that mistake ONCE if no one is there to attempt to revive you.

    Don't mess around with the innards of any electronic gear unless you know the fundamental safety rules, have a good grasp of Ohm's Law and how it applies to the electrical aspects of the Human-Body-Model!

  79. $PRODUCT$ unrepairable . . . by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
    That's a feature, not a bug. Dammit!

    You're under the misapprehension that these machines are designed for the benefit of their users : they're not ; they're designed to make profit for their manufacturer.

    It is possible to make high-quality, repairable hardware. but that generally costs more. M$ have clearly indicated that they see the Surface Pro as a disposable low-quality product, pricing and designing it accordingly. Nothing wrong with that - but don't be under any illusion about what they've done.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"