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Cherry's New Keyboard Switches Emulate IBM Model M Feel
crookedvulture writes "Slashdot has already covered the four main flavors of Cherry MX mechanical key switches: red, black, blue, and brown. Now, there's a green MX variant that emulates the feel of the buckling spring switches in old-school IBM Model M keyboards. The green switches combine tactile feedback, an audible click, and a stiff spring that requires 80g of actuation force. They're a stiffer version of the MX blues that more closely matches the characteristics of IBM's buckling spring design. Previously reserved for use with space bars, the green switches have now taken over an entire Cooler Master keyboard. And, unlike the old Model M and contemporary copycats, the new CM Storm Trigger has modern conveniences like an integrated USB hub, LED backlighting, and programmable macros." I've had my hopes raised and then dashed by some other keyboards whose makers promised Model M feel, so I'll believe it when I feel and hear it.
I would dearly love buckling spring keys but still the "bend" of my MS "natural" that I have gotten so used to. I can still type faster on a model M - I have several, but the ergo keyboards are so much better for my beat up wrists.
As opposed to actual Model Ms which are still made. With the same switch design. By many of the same workers. On the same machines.
http://www.unicomp.com/
Why bother "emulating" the buckling spring feel when you can get a brand new keyboard with real buckling springs. Oh, and it's made in the USA too!
(Also, they have keyboard layouts that offer the Ctrl key in the correct location. 'cause it's about damn time...)
The real litigious bastards...
We're trying to emulate keyboards from the 80s now?
1000 fake modpoints to you sir. You win an internet.
Or just buy a used model M. All the ones ever made likely still work. Some of them might be in the dump but even those likely still work.
Typed on a keyboard born on 1990-07-17.
Why get an overpriced copy when you can get a real Model M (even a Lexmark model) at a fraction of the cost of these wannabes?
Also, grams are a unit of mass, not force.
I'm typing on one of these now. Great keyboards. Here's a conversation I've had about a million times:
Me: "I'm working on that now for you."
Caller: "Oh, I know. I can hear you typing."
I bought one of those Unicomp keyboards and I was very disappointed with the build quality. It looks like they just made a cheap plastic housing for the keyboard but there was none of the heft of an original IBM model M.
Why would a keyboard need lights?
Who looks at them? You look at the monitor and type on the keyboard.
I was actually pleasantly surprised by their prices. $79 really isn't all that bad. I remember these keyboards costing more than that, back in the 1980s, and inflation means that this is actually a huge bargain. Then again, everything but the Commodore 64 was overpriced as hell, back in those days.
I have this week took ownership of a Cherry G80 and I love it, my model M gave up the ghost after 20+ years service and it feel's mostly the same.
I would seriously recommend this keyboard to anyone.
The greens have been around for a while, just rare. (Like Clears)
And only rare because most keyboard makers didn't think they would make marketable products.
I'm typing on a keyboard with blacks and let me tell you "stiff" cherry switches are not to be taken lightly.
They're for manly men who want to exercise their fingers! A month with a proper mechanical keyboard will leave you punching holes in your old rubber dome mush bucket "keyboard"!
PS - If you have no idea what I'm talking about here - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+the+difference+between+different+color+cherry+mx+switches%3F
The build quality of the Unicomp keyboards leaves a lot to be desired. They need to improve their moulding techniques.
MX Greens have been used with MX Blue switches for a while. Usually the only green switch on the keyboard is the spacebar, it's meant to be a stronger (heavier, requiring more actuation force) version of the blue for that purpose.
The use of MX Greens for an entire keyboard is new though.
As others indicated, you can buy a Unicomp if you want a "real Model M" anyways. The click is not as tactile and the feel from the tactility is different between buckling springs and MX switches (a click leaf is different from the THWACK of a buckling spring buckling and hitting the wall). If you want a heavier actuation cherry switch with a lighter click, get an MX. If you want a Model M-like keyboard, get a Model M or Unicomp Customizer...
Worst. Site. Ever.
I can't even see what the thing looks like from those thumbnails, and nowhere is there an explanation as to what "Classic 104" is vs "Ultra 104" and the like.
Thanks, I'll stick with my Das Keyboard.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
the best thing about the old keyboards for gamers.... no stupid windows or context menu keys to accidentally hit and mess things up during a firefight.
.......This was the best keyboard they ever made... http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg One of the first products I ever worked on, over 30 years ago.
Why purchase an imitator when you can buy the original âoeModel Mâ. We have produced the buckling spring âoeClickâ keyboard for IBM and thousands of discriminating users worldwide for 15 yearsâ¦. Join the many that have made the switch to a much more accurate data entry alternative.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
IBM originally contracted out their keyboards to Lexmark and, when the contract ran out, Lexmark employees bought the rights and formed Unicomp.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
They're rather good but not the same as a vintage M, even the lexmark ones. The caps aren't finished as nice, the plastic feels cheaper and, the ones I've tried anyway, have a lighter touch.
--- Do you believe in the day?
It's been used in spacebars on Cherry Mx Blue keyboards for a while, just not an entire keyboard.
This is a Cherry Mx Blue switch with a stiffer spring, nothing more. Enthusiasts have been making keyboards like this for a while now (which is where Cooler Master got the idea), and it most definitely does not replicate a model M feel or sound.
If you want a Model M, buy a Model M or a Unicomp.
as others likely know, the model M was virtually indestructible.
I have one from my old PS/2 model 50 that still gets 8+ hours a day of pounding.
If you RTFA, it does mention the Unicomps and give a reason for preferring the CM Storm Trigger. To wit: "Because, let's be honest: the Model M is not a pretty keyboard, and its Unicomp successors also won't be winning any beauty pageants. None of those keyboards have the same array of gamer-friendly features, like macro keys, as Cooler Master's offering, either."
I have a recent Model M here (in the black, Mac-optimized version) and I like it a lot. I'm no die-hard gamer, don't need macros, and I don't enter my keyboard in beauty pageants. It would be nice if they could build a USB hub into them, though.
About that snide remark concerning 'copycat'---could be wrong (often am) but Northgate made just such a keyboard before Cherry was trying to copy the IBM feel. So you're saying that two copies make a keyboard?
The Unicomp keyboards are terrible. Aside from the spring action which is fantastic, they're rather sloppily put together. I had a 104-key die completely within 6 weeks, they thankfully replaced it. I believe the USB controller had come loose in some fashion. Haven't had any issues (2 years) with the replacement... but I'm not using it as my primary keyboard as planned.
I purchased a Unicomp "Linux" keyboard. I stopped using it after a few months. It's PS2 not USB and I had roll-over issues.
I replaced it with the Newegg Rosewill model. I'm happy with it but I'd like back-lighting in my next "Model M clone".
Does anyone know of a Bluetooth Model M clone?
The only thing against this is that Unicomp seems to try it's best to make the keyboard look as ugly and cheap as possible.
They are quite successful at it.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
I remember these keyboards costing more than that, back in the 1980s, and inflation means that this is actually a huge bargain.
It could mean that, or it could mean that the IBM logo sticker cost you eighty bucks.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Ha. Gotcha beat: 06Nov1989
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
The only new thing here is the keyboard itself. Which makes this just another slashvertisement.
The customizer has pretty serious rollover issues, IMO. But otherwise, they're very nice keyboards.
Do you see what I did there?
Maybe you should learn to type and then you would not need backlighting. There are usb to bluetooth solutions they are not cheap.
Indeed, my current keyboard is dated from '85. They really do just never wear out, although skins on the esc and F12 keys seem to have gone AWOL...
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
I have two F8s and no F7 because of that.
Get this when it is released, and turn any computer into a ThinkPad, even your HTPC!
And for the sake of your cubemate / roommate, stop the fetish about Model M already.
It would be a mechanical ergo keyboard like the M$ Natural 4000.
I have a hell of a time finding Model M keyboards. The dump is not an option, one something hits their dumpsters they are not legally allowed to let anyone have it back, or even touch it. Liability stuff. Electronic waste is a bit better, but since I've started speaking with them, they haven't shown up. Computer junk shops don't exist in my area anymore, they've either folded, or got rid of the old and focused on new systems and repair. On ebay they regularly end up going for $50-$100 and shipping for me bumps that up ~$50. Craigslist also usually has them going for $50-$100 (Seems they do their research before posting) and even if I could justify that price on a keyboard, they're gone pretty quickly.
Very frustrating. My only Model M I have right now is undergoing a steampunk conversion. I would love to have one for day to day use.
Marketing on Slashdot again, huh... *sigh*
The Cherry MX Green does not feel like a buckling spring from the Model F or Model M keyboards, really.
While it is a stiff clicky switch, it is far less tactile, and the tactile point is different.
The Buckling Spring on a IBM Model M or Model F has a slow progression in resistance followed by a sharp drop at the actuation point at around 2/3 - 3/4 way down the stroke.
The Cherry MX Blue and Green have a small bump at the actuation point, which is higher up, at about 1/2-way down the stroke.
As other posters have already written, the MX Green is just like a MX Blue with a stiffer spring. It was made to be used for the Space Bar on a keyboard that is otherwise populated with MX Blue.
Compared to the Blue, with the Green's stiffer spring you tend to press harder on it and that diminishes the feel of the tactile bump somewhat.
The Green has always been used as the space bar switch on Cherry's own keyboards with Blue switches. The only new thing is that it is used on a whole keyboard.
Having a stiffer switch on the space bar is common. Ordinary rubber dome keyboards often come with coiled springs under the space bar to make it stiffer.
If you want a Buckling Spring keyboard, you could buy a new Model M from Unicomp. They are built using the same machines and tooling that the old IBM keyboards were. They even cost less than many gaming keyboards with Cherry MX switches.
BTW. This post was typed on a Dolch keyboard (Cherry G80-1813HFX) with Cherry MX Blue switches, except for the Green switch on the space bar.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
Dumpster diving is common even if illegal.
Honestly spending $50 to $100 is totally worth it. These days most Model Ms are not out in the wild to be found. I got most of mine when I was in University and they were giving them away.
This evangelized "IBM Model M" keyboard is something like "Gibson Les Paul Custom 1968" guitar for typists and developers.. huh?
Or hell if you want a classic Model M just go to your local mom & pop PC shop, we usually have a couple stashed and are pretty reasonable about the prices, especially if you BS with us a little while because we love having someone that can talk shop. I got a couple guys that work maintenance in all the local government and small office buildings and they are under strict orders to make sure any "clicky clack" keyboards end up coming my way. Both myself and my boys are all using classic clicky clacks, they are really great for shooters and you just can't beat the feel, they have good throw and reaction time, I swear by my clicky clack.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
12 Feb 1988, sonny.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Why do you want "The Model M Buckling Spring Feel And Sound"? What gives?
These look cool to me. I miss mechanical keyboards.
Second that! I LOVE my Das Keyboard.
Why is this such a big deal. Yes, I love the clicky keyboards from the past eras, when keyboards were meant to last. My favorite were the ones on the original 512k macs. You could just pound away on them. I liked the ones on the IBM 3151's 286es and 8088's. The Apple Extended keyboard II was nice too. I am pounding out this posting on a Matias Tactile Pro keyboard. I LOVE it.
Sadly though, these were great when people had offices. Now, their time has passed. Iif you have a big office and don't mind shelling out 100$ or so... knock your self out. Alas, I would hope for an improvement on these keyswitches. Many people work in cubicles or shared work places. These noisy keyboards just don't belong in offices where lots of people work. They are distracting as hell and are worse than the droning sounds of fans and the like. .02
I beg to differ, I replaced my model M recently because the WASD keys were worn enough to have holes through their surface. I doubt that the sidewinder with cherry mx blues will last as long, but its not a bad feel, and unlike any of the new Model M's it has back lighting which is a feature that I also wanted.
The innards are identical (ok, except for the mcu since I guess they had to swap that out to get usb support). It's just less heavy because they reduced the size of the case and removed some excess material.
The only dodgy unicomp thing is the one with the built in pointing stick. It's a first or second gen trackpoint, or a clone, and really not very useful. And the mouse buttons are simple contact foil things, so they wear out after 2-3 years and you can't replace them without taking the keyboard completely apart, which is approximately impossible. I'd kill for one of them with a real trackpoint IV and proper switches for the mouse buttons...
HAL 7000, fewer features than the HAL 9000, but just as homicidal!
Its a keyboard you can beat a man to death with, and still be perfectly usable as a keyboard.
"I have a hell of a time finding Model M keyboards. "
Goodwill is where I've found all of mine.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
And the worst thing is the ghosting, which doesn't exist in modern gaming keyboards.
Also, most modern gaming keyboards have a way to toggle the Windows key. Even my cheap $30 Logitech G105 gaming keyboard does. This way you don't lose the functionality when you want it and you don't accidentally hit it when you don't want.
I bought one of those Unicomp keyboards and I was very disappointed with the build quality. It looks like they just made a cheap plastic housing for the keyboard but there was none of the heft of an original IBM model M.
I have a Unicomp SpaceSaver 104 and a Customizer 104. I would not buy the Customizer again; it has all of the bulk of the classic Model M without the same build quality. On the other hand, I love the SpaceSaver -- while it's likely not as effective for self-defense as the classic Model M is, I love typing on this as much as my ~30yr old IBM keyboard (which still works great!), and it uses less desk space, and is natively USB. It also doesn't feel as flimsy as the Customizer does, probably simply due to there being less plastic overall.
I also use a Das, which I don't like typing on as much as the SpaceSaver but it is extremely well built. Maybe I'll replace all the key switches in it with these green ones if they're more like buckling springs!
You should have just bought replacement keycaps and learned to type.
I don't understand the attraction of those old IBMish keyboards. You wore out your fingers with all the pressure they take to type on, and you feel self conscious typing on them because they're so noisy. What really is the attraction?
Jan 04 1986, plus I've got an old 83 key F series from June 10 1981 with the buckling spring. Yeah they last forever, sadly the F series just won't work even with an adapter anymore and has been retired to my machine shop. Which is okay, since my shop is a rather nasty place for computer hardware and the more durable the better, I used to wear out standard keyboards every few months.
Om, nomnomnom...
$50-$100 are you serious? http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-Clicky-Keyboard-PS-2-tested-working-SEPT-1993-/121075252956?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1c30a5bedc
Each processor would proceed sequentially as if it had been better for them not to rise against Saul.
Mine is from November 1987 and is the awesomest piece of hardware I have. Can't remember the actual day though as I am at work and my fellow comrades would detest the clackity racket if I brought it here.
Drainage Holes FTW!
I don't get it; why did the W wear out?
At least the other 3 are part of ETAOINSHRDLU.
because I can't find any LK201 keyboards...
Those Model M keyboards are junk because the Control key is in the wrong place!!!
Karma: Bad
I have five in total. The oldest is from 13 Jun 1986.
Just love the old IBM model M
Thrift stores are the cheapest bet (think out-of-the-way Mom and Pop Christian Ministry type thrift stores, not Goodwill).
Stopped by one recently and asked if they had any old keyboards in the back. The employee pointed me outside to a shed behind the building. There was literally a pile of old IBM Model Ms laying behind the place, had been hit by rain several times. Took a garbage sack of them home, let them dry out and everything was fine (there was even an old IBM model 5150, but my wife wasn't about to let me add that to the PC graveyard in the office).
The annoying bit is that so many of them are AT instead of PS/2 (good luck even finding PS/2 ports on modern hardware, now it is just 4 USB ports in the back).
Nothing beats the original... I said, 'NOTHING BEATS THE ORIGINAL!' (needed to shout over the keyclick noise...) ;-)
The best-seeming Bluetooth mechanical keyboard I've found is the KBtalKing Pro. There are a few caveats:
1. $179.
2. At least when they first came out, they only had red switches, which I dislike. At the moment, you can choose blue, brown, and red, though; not sure if that is permanent.
3. I haven't been able to confirm rollover. I read that a different Bluetooth keyboard only had 2KRO (which I believe matches the Model M, incidentally); I'm not sure if that's a limitation of going wireless or if it was just a limitation of that particular keyboard.
4. Blank keycaps are only available with red switches (by no means a dealbreaker, but I prefer blank keys).
I would love a Bluetooth mechanical keyboard with NKRO (I would accept 6, though), blue switches, blank keycaps, macros, and the look and build quality of a Das Keyboard. Given that mechanical keyboards are experiencing something of a renaissance of late, hopefully that dream will become a reality.
If you can't convince them, convict them.
You want low activation force on an ergonomic keyboard. Hence rubber dome, low force cherry switches, scissor switches, that sort of thing. High force click switches are bad for ergonomic because of how hard you have to punch the keys. They may be "geek cool" but ergonomic they are not.
If you want a mechanical ergonomic keyboard look at Kinesis or TrulyErgo. Personally I like Kinesis' Freestyle 2, though it is not mechanical switches.
They are all low force switches though, since that is what is good for ergonomics.
Yeah pretty much. I think they mostly mentioned because of their relatively indestructible construction. People that had other keyboards that they maybe liked better than anything newer were forced to buy, use, and adapt to the new crap eventually.
I don't know about old vs new guitar quality, but the Model M holds alot of the same reverence as a pre-'64 Winchester 70 for many of the same reasons
"The Adobe Updater must update itself before it can check for updates. Would you like to update the Adobe Updater now?"
Do tell...
Do you have ESP?
I don't understand the attraction of those old IBMish keyboards. You wore out your fingers with all the pressure they take to type on, and you feel self conscious typing on them because they're so noisy. What really is the attraction?
Well, they were built like tanks which is good. And the keyboard typing doesn't have a "mushy" feel to it, which is also good.
But beyond that I agree with you. They are too noisy and heavy for my taste. I guess they appeal to the guy who drives around an old 1970s small block chevy, despite it being loud, heavy, ugly, and not particularly comfortable. But it too will last forever.
My unicomp model m born on 11/16/2011 is why I don't fear the never-ending soda.
It's the main reason even on my Macs I use Microsoft or Logitech keyboards. Mac keyboards are like typing on a desktop. They actually keep getting worse over the years. I love the old feel of an IBM keyboard and miss the rock solid metal feel. I wear out a keyboard in about three months these days while the old IBMs would last years if not decades. I do agree with the I'll believe it when I feel it crowd but it does sound promising. For text typing there's nothing that beats a good ole stiff keyboard. My biggest complain over feel is the the cheapie printed keys. After three months the "A" is completely gone and several others are fading. After six months a third of the keys are hard to read. My touch typing skills are basic and they don't apply when you are doing graphics since I don't hold my hands in a typing position.
A couple of mentions of the Model F already but I think it's worth a dedicated post! My understanding is that the Model M (a keyboard before whose build quality, longevity and tactility modern keyboards quake in fear) originated as the cheaper, mass-market version of the older Model F keyboard. I have both a Model M and a Model F; I do find the key feel of the latter to be even nicer. It's also even louder and heavier - and I don't have one of the really big 122 key terminal variants.
The Model M does actually use a membrane (a bit like a modern keyboard) to detect key presses but it puts a spring and a hammer / foot on top. The Model F uses a hammer / foot but senses its movement using capacitative sensing. In principle it seems like there is even less to wear out using this mechanism - not that the Model M typically has lifetime issues! I've also heard that this potentially gives the keyboard n-key rollover, which the Model M cannot achieve. I suppose you might need a custom controller to actually get the benefit, though.
It's worth trying a Model F if you get the chance; the only trouble is that at least some of them had a horrible, heavy space bar - that can be fixed by a spring modification. The other problem is that the layouts are varying degrees of crazy, since it appears people still weren't really sure what keys should be on a keyboard (or where). Still, it's the only keyboard you can successfully use to intimidate Model M users, when you're telling them to get off your lawn.
I actually have a broken one--it fell off of my desk and whacked into a leg of my chair, and after that a cluster of keys stopped working.
That's ok though, I just went and got another one out of my hoard, and will get around to opening up that fallen one some day... I have several more spares so that should be a lifetime supply, even if I live for a very long time.
Typed on a model M, 1992-07-31.
About six months ago I replaced my motherboard. The only hard requirement I had was that it have a ps2 port for my Model M. It did limit my choices but there are still plenty of motherboards that offer a ps2 port. In three years though, when I'm looking at upgrading, I suspect I'll also be looking at a unicomp keyboard or a USB adapter, though I've read the USB adapters are sort of hit and miss.
As for the AT/PS2 issue, an adapter should be fine: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/495548
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
"Or just buy a used model M. All the ones ever made likely still work. Some of them might be in the dump but even those likely still work."
Not the one I spilled a Coke on. If the Model M's ever rise up against their human masters, bring a fridge pack with you.
Now all they need is a "natural" arrangement, and it'd be the perfect keyboard.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
The Ultra goes to 11, man.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
Well, you can get modern quiet ones that use the same buckling spring, but aren't sounding like a machinegun when you type on them (and really, in an office environment, it's a great way to drive your coworkers to go postal on you. So unless you've got an office...).
But I suppose it's also great if you have kids - put it on the family PC and you can tell someone's using it. If they're older and have their own computer in the room, give them that and you can tell when they're doing homework or just surfing Facebook.
Or if you don't want your significant other to use your computer... well, it's just hard to discreetly use one now.
Of all the PS/2 to USB adapters I've tried (a LOT of them), they all... suck. The most common problem I find is they don't do typematic properly - if you hold a key down, they type anywhere from 4-8 characters and that's it. If you're doing some random typing, not an issue. But if you code, or want to play a game that requires holding down a key, forget about it. Others I've seen go nuts if they're hooked to a KVM (either before or after).
It's strange, too, it's like they all refuse to send keydown and key up reports (like regular USB keyboards) and just emulate the behavior. Some I've seen simulate typematic by issuing keydown and key up commands. Needless to say, gaming was a miss with that one. Especially on games that required you to hold down a key to to modify behavior (e.g., run).
At first, I thought I'd go for the blue switches, because most people seemed to gravitate towards them for their springy-ness. But I tried a black switch keyboard from Filco, and I decided black switches were for me.
They aren't hard to get used to, but the first few days, I was smacking the keys like I used to on my cheap-o pack-in keyboard. But after a few days of use, I find myself enjoying the black switches quite a bit. *YMMV* of course.
I did almost buy an RK-9000 blue switch, and maybe I will again for a spare. But for my daily keyboarding, I can't top my Filco.
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
I have two of them. One is USB, all black, with Unix layout (ctrl and esc in the right places). With *blank* keys except for 4 green keys where HJKL go.
Das Keyboard looks like a poor imitation of my new keyboard.
I think the only real thing I want from Unicomp is a Model M style keyboard but with the layout and size of the Happy Hacker.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
One bit of warning about the Unicomp keyboards (I run two), I would suspect the same for USB adapters... is they take a bit of power, so if your USB port isn't offering enough juice (500ma), you may want to pickup a USB adapter that has an additional power source (I've had to do this for use with my KVM at home). I have to say I love the things... I went through almost a decade of a new keyboard every 6-8 months, until I got a Unicomp 104-key... swear by them.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Where are the keyboards with the Ctrl key in the correct location? I don't see that model with buckling springs.
Hint: Click on the slightly bigger thumbnail to get a full picture.
The site is badly lacking in basic specs though, like the dimensions for example.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
It's changed slightly.. the casing is a bit cheaper, and the backplane seems to be lighter... just the same, it's way better than the typical keyboards you see.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Yes, and I have a box full of them just in case I am attacked by a group.
Good news! The Unicomp Keyboard uses the type-m switches. They bought the mfg rights to the type-m keyboard and they're proudly made right here in the United States of America! I am typing on my Unicomp Type-M keyboard right now and I love it.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/
**Highly recommended for the type-m keyboard fan**
Yeah, I have a customizer-104, and one of the trackpoint models... I remember an old IBM thinkpad I had and how much I liked the trackpoint over the (at the time) heavy use of trackballs... I also thought it would be useful for when a mouse dies, etc... and it has been, just the same, I find it gets in the way of my typing far more than I actually use the thing. In generally it's mostly just in the way. I do love them both far more than the 10 years or so of crappy keyboards every 6-12 months I was buying another keyboard.. I've had these two for about 3 years now.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Well.. Driving around in a newer Dodge Challenger is pretty close... I like the Model M, and the old muscle/pony cars.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
I own a CM Quickfire Storm with Cherry MX Greens and I love it, but it's not designed to replicate buckling springs. And the switches aren't new. They were just hard to come by in full keyboards.
The switches are identical to Cherry MX Blues, but with a stiffer spring. If you want buckling spring pick up a Unicomp, or a used IBM or Lexmark Model M. If you like Cherry MX Blues but wish they were a little stiffer, get Greens. I personally like the way they return as you release them the best, but I also like the MX Browns and Blues I own. Not so big on the linear Reds and Blacks, however.
March 3rd, 4,540,000,000BCE here. But I have to be honest, the space bar key is starting to have some issues.
I have bought three things from them, all of them were so poorly biult I hesitated to use them
the laptop power supply started oscillating at 60Hz on the DC line the 2nd time I plugged it in
the ATX power supply was so shitty the modular plugs on the supply didnt line up with the holes in the box, died less than a year later when an input cap exploded
the heatsink broke a clip where the metal was pressed into shape in a nice clean shear
I wont tell you not to buy their products, but I make sure I let people know my experience with their overprice bargain basement GARBAGE anytime the name is brought up
I have one of those but the clickyness isn't as sharp as a real Model M.
I have a customized Unicomp myself. Worth every penny and it is not made cheaply in China. It makes noise but so did the model M... I can't see this thing wearing out, but those cherry switches look like they would go before my springs. (I've heard claims of millions of clicks before... I've got two worn out mice to prove the numbers are not high enough.)
Also, the springs in mine look like normal springs you could buy online somewhere (naturally, I took it apart upon getting it!) It'll be easy for the next generation to replace worn springs; that is if your children bother to get a USB adapter for their phone... and if they can't afford the brain implant computers.
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I agree, the Unicomp has exactly the same feel (and sound) as the Model M and far superior build and 'heft' compared to most keyboards. Well worth the money and I've bought three from them. Model Ms - certainly here in the UK - are very hard to come by and ultra expensive when they come up with a UK layout. The Unicomp, even with the high shipping cost from the US and import duty, comes in at around £100. I did manage to banjax one by spilling coffee over it but barring future liquid intrusion, my other two are going strong and feel like they'll last a lifetime - just like the Model M.
"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead!" - Stan Laurel
Mine survived the coke, but the cord eventually failed. I cried. My wife did not understand. I kept the keycaps for a sculpture someday and gave the rest to a buddy.
I spilled a coke in mine but sprayed it from a garden hose and let it dry for five days. that was in the late 90s I think, still going....
why you post as AC? you'd be +5 funny by now if you hadn't.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
want heft? get the hefty one: they make different models of "model m", my 122 key one with 24 function keys weighs 6 lbs.
I brought my Model M to the office. I no longer hear the complaints of my cubicle comrades over its glorious actuation sounds.
(51G8572, 5/19/95 - and about a 3 meter detachable cable on it)
The ultra is smaller like a modern keyboard. Which you would have seen if you clicked on the "thumbnails"....
To quote a post I saw elsewhere: "A keyboard needs to be tough enough to beat a man to death with. And then write his obituary on afterwords."
Have gnu, will travel.
I see this terrible website and I see no product with ctrl key in place where you speak. I see some vague keyboard layout configuration tool, but aside from picking colors and the number of keys for the layout, there is only a comment box for anything else
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
I can't even see what the thing looks like from those thumbnails
Click on the thumbnail.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
I've got four thrift stores in my area: Value Village, St Vincent De Paul, Salvation Army, and Habitat for Humanity ReStore. None of them ever have Model M keyboards. When I was looking for the one I'm modding, I had friends scouring places for them. I live in Peterborough ON, and I had people here and in the GTA (Greater Toronto) looking for me. Came up zilch.
Just had the impression that most people and businesses got rid of them and the thrift stores sent them to the dump thinking the couldn't move 25 year old computer stuff.
I don't think that listing shipped to Canada.
I'm 3 for 3 Sun Type 6 USB keyboards that were unable to come back after having water or beer splashed on them. The traces on the membrane of those Type 6 looked extremely discolored once they got wet. So for me it's par for the course that a wet keyboard is an unhappy keyboard. (not counting the $10 mush machines you can get from the office supply store, those seem to work even after putting them in the dish washer)
Right now there isn't a great alternative for me other than Sun/Oracle (I'm happy with the Type 7, even if it is quiet), Happy Hacker, or Unicomp.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Ah, that makes more sense to me now. Yes, ebay/paypal deliberately punishes sellers that are foolish enough to ship outside of the united states. Chargebacks are super common and they can last as long as a month. The sale that made me stop selling outside of the country left my paypal account negative $100 for a month. Most of that money was the shipping to the country in question (Ukraine)... All for a $30 videocard. Never again. If you don't like it, encourage ebay to be fair to the sellers that are even-handed about shipping internationally.
Each processor would proceed sequentially as if it had been better for them not to rise against Saul.
But their website isn't particularly helpful. If I'm ordering a new buckling-spring keyboard I want to order one with a USB hub and trackpoint (or equivalent - no stupid crappy touchpad, I have work to do). They have logos that suggest they have them with trackpoint but I sure as hell can't find them - and I don't want a trackball, either.
Otherwise I will just use my old model M's, with trackpoint, when I need them. USB adapters work just fine for that purpose.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
When they make a buckling-spring keyboard with trackpoint and a USB hub. I have work to do and I don't want to have to take my hands off my keyboard. And don't you dare offer me a touchpad or a trackball; I will beat you up with my Model M keyboards if you even think of it.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Manufactured December 1986 and still kicking. Bought a neat USB cable that has a model M plug on the end. Though I still can't figure out why my ears ring and have constant headaches after use.
This is my fav USB to PS/2 adapter. Seems not to have the problems some of the other ones do.
http://www.cyberguys.com/product-details/?productid=4850
Should be easibly fixable, but there ARE other good keyboards. I've just never found one that I achieve the sheer velocity of typing on. I was just typing this slowly, it took 2 seconds, lol. Even the nice Northgate keyboards never quite had exactly the right nonlinear springiness as the buckling spring.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Every single person I have ever known with a classic muscle car was constantly working on it, because they were pieces of shit that constantly broke down. Contrast that to a modern Honda or Toyota that you could drive hundreds of thousands of miles before ever having a problem.
I get an order page with no picture at all, not even the thumbnail.
And no description either beyond what was visible from the index.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Don't make me go into the server room and look at the model M attached to the IBM3151 terminal :)
Weird industrial design situation there - monitor and terminal is in a thin plastic case that flexes entirely out of shape when you just plug in a serial cable but the keyboard is solid enough to hammer in nails. That keyboard is of course missing some of the electronics found in a PS/2 version, so is incompatible with anything else, but a PS/2 model M isn't that hard to find.
I just had a great idea for a kickstarter campaign - adjustable pressure keyboards. You tell the company what pressure you want, and you get a clickety keyboard carefully adjusted for the pressure you want, from those who like keyboards which are clunky but not too hard to press past the model M 'ideal' 80g through to, oh, say, 5-6 Kg of force to press each key. Keyboards at the upper end of the scale have slightly larger keys and ship with a free mallet. Really good for typing out emails like "No, you may not change the scope of the project because you feel like it, and no I don't feel like holding yet another meeting about it."
Work like no one is watching. Dance like you've never been hurt. Make love like you don't need the money.
Yep. The Unicomp is the only keyboard I ever used that overloaded my KVM switch, and I've used lots of USB keyboards with the switch. I had to put a powered USB hub between them - YUCK. This is one thing they could and should improve. Nobody else slurps down that much power in a USB keyboard.
As for ruggedness, I am a confirmed keyboard masher (temper). I have given my Unicomp some wicked blows and it shook them off easily. This is one keyboard you can hit britally with the heel of your hand and your hand will give up first.
In some places they have annoying laws that ban the sale of cheap second hand electronic goods by stealth. It's done by requiring a lot of testing and very time consuming documentation by certified electricians and charities can't afford it, especially since updating the certification requires more money than a retired electrician could justify even if they volunteered to do it. That means where I live any unwanted electronic gear that's not instantly saleable on ebay or donated to packrats with enough space such as myself goes to the dump.
I vividly remember the price for the original IBM PC keyboard was $300 in 1982. Adjusted for CPI inflation, that works out to $702.56 in 2012.
Ow!
That hurt you bastard.
Funny, I absolutely HATE creaking plastic, melted-soap fugly keyboards. I think the Unicomp is the most beautiful design out there. It bespeaks timeless industrial design wisdom.
It's the same way I react to all the melted-soap fugly cars of today. Give the gorgeously creased Giugiaro-styled 1977-1982 Audi 5000 and mark 1 VW Rabbit and Scirroco any day.
I own two Das's... they rock.
I recommend the blank-keyed "stealth" model. It not only keeps those without any computer skills away from your terminal (some people look at a blank keyboard, and literally don't know what to do), but they're also ideal for home. Mine keeps my non-touch-typist kids away from my computer.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Yup. I have one at work, and have been using it for 3 years with no discernable wear. The quality of the plastic castings isn't as good as a classic Model M, but it's built like a brick shithouse, and it's got USB, unlike the original Modle Ms which can have problems from time to time with some of the crappy PS/2 port implementations out there...
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
Amen to that brother!
Where I work we just got like 20 Avenger and 10 Challengers...
The Avenger wants to take off at 100 MPH, they shake as much as a Fokker on take off..
The Challengers are a bit better but still no competition for an old Thunderbird... Even the old models without traction control.
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
Perhaps you need to name a brand/model.
Currently I use daily, a Chevrolet Tahoe 1995 with over 160,000 miles; without a fuss.
Yes, you can see me working on it a couple of times a month, but is is usually aestethic things, not power-train or engine problems.
And this one replaced a Mustang 1965 that through some unfortunate happenings, I managed to lose.
Of course, if you are refering to a Ford Pinto or any American Cars (except Jeep), yeah they suck.
But try some old Volkswagen cars (Cabriolet, Golf even the venerable Beetle) or some Ford (the F150 is rock-solid) or Chevrolet (like my Tahoe) and they are solid. Yes, the suck gas like there is no end to it, but they will not leave you stranded.
Same with the IBM M's, they are over-engineered so bad, they will outlast our civilization.
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
You might get a good keyboard, but you're very likely to get something that doesn't work properly.
Last week, I got a coupon for a Cooler Master keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches. It was a very good price, but then I looked at the reviews. Concentrating on the negative reviews, I saw mention of keyboards with one or two broken keys, and keyboards with delicate USB connectors that break, and keyboards that stop working entirely after one year, after one month, after one week. Sometimes the customer would RMA keyboards several times before getting a keyboard that worked reliably. This is not what I imagine when I read claims of "50 million life cycle."
Have a nice time.
You don't usually type much when gaming (unless it's a text adventure, of course). That it's the "WASD" keys that were worn out is a strong hint that he was gaming a lot. "WASD" are the typical game "arrow keys".
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Would you post your real details if you were bragging on the 'net about something worth millions of dollars on eBay?
No sig today...
You're buying a model M and you're worried about dimensions?
Maybe you're not in the target demographic. Just sayin'.
No sig today...
I don't understand the attraction of those old IBMish keyboards. You wore out your fingers with all the pressure they take to type on, and you feel self conscious typing on them because they're so noisy. What really is the attraction?
You probably think Apple makes nice computers.
No sig today...
I've got the Professional at home. Labels are nice for me because of those relatively rarely used symbols (such as &) I can never keep straight, and there's nobody I'd want to keep off the machine that good habits like locking the session don't solve.
At work I have a classic no-label Das Keyboard. It's showing it's age (if it had labels, they would be worn off by now). Coworkers love it.
Best keyboards I've ever owned.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
Last year, I had decided to buy an Unicomp. Checked their site, no shipping option to my country; emailed, got no reply. Went to eBay, got a cheap Solidtek instead. Maybe it's the "low end" of mechanicals, but it's still much better than any rubber dome crap.
Circumcision is child abuse.
First, a 1996 Tahoe is not a) classic or b) a muscle car. Neither is the F150. Second, I had an 87 Accord that had over 500K miles on it and my current 02 Camry has over 200K miles on it right now and not a single problem; never been to the mechanic's..
When would you want to use the Windows key? Is Ctrl-Esc too difficult?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
It's the same way I react to all the melted-soap fugly cars of today. Give the gorgeously creased Giugiaro-styled 1977-1982 Audi 5000 and mark 1 VW Rabbit and Scirroco any day.
Most cars today are shaped like rain drops due to aerodynamic efficiency concerns. A rain drop possesses its shape because it is the most natural aerodynamic shape it can get into to offer the least air resistance possible.
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
I agree. Let's also get rid of the 1 and use the L key instead. Get rid of the 0 in favour of the O too whilst you're at it.
Seriously there are still secretaries who do that AND they use spreadsheets. Scary..
These switches are just MX blues with a stiffer spring so they can be used in space bars, escape keys and such. They have the same problems that the blues have, making them fall far short of a buckling spring replacement:
First, there is the shrill "tink-tink" sound that they make which seems to be intentionally made to be audible on a busy factory or sales floor (not at home or in the office).
Second is the hysteresis or "reset point" which is higher up (on the way back up) than the actuation point itself. This creates an odd feel when pressing a key more than once in succession.
I'd tell anyone who wants a firmer (but not 80g) switch with good tactile feedback to try Matias corp's new mechanical switches. You can choose between clicky (but not shrill) and quiet versions.
I agree. Let's also get rid of the 1 and use the L key instead. Get rid of the 0 in favour of the O too whilst you're at it.
Seriously there are still secretaries who do that AND they use spreadsheets. Scary..
They learned to type the same way I did. Bang bang bang bang bang DING! bang bang WHACK!
I assume voice recognition software has improved to the point that you could get solid enough results out of it that would leave only some clean-up editing.
Unless you're one of those writers that never seems to even *read* what they've written; correctly spelled words used incorrectly are now even showing up in wire service reports, FFS.
To connect a PS/2 model to USB, an adapter that does signal conversion works best: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/11298/subcatid/0/id/124184. I've been using these with three Model M's for years. I wish all of my equipment was as rugged as these keyboards. My favorite "Space Saver" Model M (no numeric keypad) has outlived many computers and will probably outlive me.
Using an appropriate adapter ( http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/xt-at-ps2-terminal-to-usb-converter-with-nkro-t2510.html ) they still work and are even more pleasant to type on than Model Ms imho. :)
I've heard that the Nikon F4 / F5 SLR cameras were so tough that you can beat a man to death with it and still take a picture of the body.
This is a great metric. "A keyboard that you can beat a man to death with, and then still perfectly usable as a keyboard ... to blog about it."
Not only do both have the proper feel, they'll be more likely to outlast the Coolermaster boards despite both being well over 15 years old.
If I really want programmable macros or USB, microcontrollers can provide those.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Hi! Sorry if this is not appropriate, but, does anybody know where do I can find a good mechanical keyboard with Spanish layout? Take Filco, for instance, they have, as far as I know, American and British English, German, Italian, French, even Swedish and Finish, but no Spanish. Hey, we are more than 400 million speakers. So, any information would be very much appreciated. Regards FJSS
on a Unicomp classic 102, im proud to say i didnt buy a cherry. Unicomp is made in lexington kentucky on the same tooling and to the same original specification as the model M. I didnt pay underage workers to assemble it, or slave labor to package it. no one lept to their death from an office tower to make this. I am simultaneously the scourge and envy of my officeworkers as my keyboard was less expensive, more original, and has a superior feel to chinese knockoffs like the das keyboard or the cherry green. im sorry, but there will always be only one model M. accept no substitutes and get one.
http://unicomp.com/
Good people go to bed earlier.
I don't know if this is a troll or sheer ignorance. You do know that the Windows key is useful for all sorts of shortcuts, right? And not just in Windows either.
These are shortcuts for the key in Windows:
Win+Pause - Display the System Properties dialog box.
Win+D - Display the desktop.
Win+M - Minimize all windows.
Win+Shift+M - Restore minimized windows to the desktop.
Win+E - Open Computer.
Win+F - Search for a file or folder.
Win+Ctrl+F - Search for computers (on a network).
Win+L - Lock your computer or switch users.
Win+R - Open the Run dialog box.
Win+T - Cycle through programs on the taskbar.
Win+number - Start the program pinned to the taskbar in the position indicated by the number. If the program is already running, switch to that program.
Win+Shift+number - Start a new instance of the program pinned to the taskbar in the position indicated by the number.
Win+Ctrl+number - Switch to the last active window of the program pinned to the taskbar in the position indicated by the number.
Win+Alt+number - Open the Jump List for the program pinned to the taskbar in the position indicated by the number.
Win+Tab - Cycle through programs on the taskbar by using Aero Flip 3-D.
Win+Ctrl+Tab - Use the arrow keys to cycle through programs on the taskbar by using Aero Flip 3-D.
Win+Ctrl+B - Switch to the program that displayed a message in the notification area.
Win+Spacebar - Preview the desktop.
Win+Up Arrow - Maximize the window.
Win+Left Arrow - Maximize the window to the left side of the screen.
Win+Right Arrow - Maximize the window to the right side of the screen.
Win+Down Arrow - Minimize the window.
Win+Home - Minimize all but the active window.
Win+Shift+Up Arrow - Stretch the window to the top and bottom of the screen.
Win+Shift+Left Arrow/Right Arrow - Move a window from one monitor to another.
Win+P - Choose a presentation display mode.
Win+G - Cycle through gadgets.
Win+U - Open Ease of Access Center.
Win+X - Open Windows Mobility Center.
I use most of these all of the time while on the desktop. In Linux, it will depend on which distro or window manager you're using, but I'm sure they all have equally as handy shortcuts.
That's because your taste is shit.
Easy to demonstrate actually..
Find someone who has a lot of musical keyboards (synths) and ask if you can try one with weighted keys and one with not-weighted keys.. That basically is the difference (with the weighted you constatly are aware of "where in the stroke" you are, without it you have no warning when hitting the bottom nor get any feedback about how hard you are typing).
Or put another way: With a rubberdome keyboard you get a hard "stop" to every keystroke, with a mechanical you generally can stop between the key is registred and when they key ceases to move (compare to hitting a wall and stricking a punching bag)
And for two extremes for tactile feedback: Compare a rubberdome keyboard with an actual piano.
There is no reason to equate low force with being unable to type well, it's just a personal preference. You just need to get used to not pressing as hard on the keys. A cherry brown switch requires 45g of force to activate, peaking at 55g. Most people have no problems typing on keyboards using this switch, they're quite popular. The Fukka switches in your Matias keyboard are roughly 60g, so not that much more.
As for your disdain for ergonomic keyboards, you're welcome to your own opinions, but I view it as a kind of prophylaxis. Why bend my wrists awkwardly when there are keyboards out there that split and tent to keep my wrists in a neutral position? I can type perfectly fine (fast enough to keep up with my thoughts, certainly) and the problems you cite do not occur often enough to me for them to be problematic.
>The annoying bit is that so many of them are AT instead of PS/2 (good luck even finding PS/2 ports on modern hardware, now it is just 4 USB ports in the back).
Electricially it's the same interface; adapters are dirt cheap, or solder a PS/2 plug on.
And decent motherboards still come with PS/2 (and LPT, and serial). Bottom-end cheap h/w drops them to save cents.
All your ghosts are just false positives.
Still waiting for a modern laptop with a decent keyoard. Newer thinkpads switched to those awful chicklet keyboards Apple popularized.
Mine survived an entire glass of ice tea. I took it into the shower & washed it. That was 5 or 6 years ago - still good as new today. Mine was manufactured in January 1989. It's old enough to legally drink!!
I've got 2 more in the closet, just in case something DOES happen. I doubt I'll ever need them though!
I know what wasd is for, I also remember when that was considered a new thing. He could have bought key caps to solve that and learned to type to no need backlit keyboards.
My understanding is that they are using the same machines. Since the production volumes probably isn't as in the golden days,
i would suspect that the disappointing finish is because of worn out moulds, or if they are replaced, moulds with wider tolerances and
cheaper material that wears out faster.
On the other hand, my Customizer 104 is the best thing I have ever bought! And no, my coworkers doesn't complain about the noise.
I bought a so-called "mechanical keyboard" with Cherry MX-blues, but it was a complete load of utter bollocks. I returned it to the store
after 5 disappointing minutes of typing. Totally useless.
The best keyboard ever would be a slightly nicer shaped SpaceSaver, with the plastic cased filled with sound absorbing rubber paint, :-)
and equipped with pre-flossed buckling springs
The thing is, if you want one, you're old enough to remember the real thing and won't need the pictures...
I used to have a Model M. But I don't know what ultra means, I don't know the difference between classic, windows, and linux, etc.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
"WASD" are the typical game "arrow keys".
I guess that was probably what he was talking about, but I think I've only ever seen one game that did that.
Most games I play use the arrow keys as arrow keys.
Heh, good point.
I was just using dimensions as an example of the lack of information on the site other than, "here's a picture".
I still have my Model M and won't be giving it up any time soon. Mine, however, does not have that silly Windows key.
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Either way there are remains of furnaces that were used to make wootz steel in Sri Lanka which date back to 300BCE and that's a much hotter fire than you need to cast iron. It wasn't just China by 200BCE no matter where it started, and there's a few things that have turned up in Malaysia from that time period as well.
Playing video games in the dark is the biggest reason one would prefer backlit keyboards.
You want to use a microcontroller to make a USB adapter for it. An Arduino would suffice if you don't want to design something more suited to purpose.
I own a DAS Keyboard, and I own four Unicomps too. The DAS keyboard quality is not even close to that of the Unicomps. I.e. de the DAS keyboards costs 2.5 times as much, but the quality is considerably lower. The DAS keyboard sometimes transposes characters when I type real fast (due to scanline frequency limitations). The Unicomps *never* transpose characters (the Unicomp keyboards don't use scanlines, they have dedicated lines per key). The overal average typingspeed I get on the DAS is lower than on the Unicomp.
So, yes, their site is not as good as it could be. But give the guys from Unicomp a break, they know how to make the best keyboards in the world, creating websites just isn't their strong suite. Also, when you call there, 9 out of 10 times, you will be talking to the CEO and chief engineer. Their technical phone support is superb, they explain you on the phone how to perform maintenance.
Optimizing for edge cases there, I hope ;-)
Thx - I didn't know about any of those except Win-L to lock the screen. For my style of working (every window maximized on one monitor or another, no Aero or gadgets, file manipulation mostly from the command prompt) they are not that useful. But I can see why others might like them.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com