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Court: 4th Amendment Applies At Border, Password Protected Files Not Suspicious

An anonymous reader sends this Techdirt report on a welcome ruling from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals: ""Here's a surprise ruling. For many years we've written about how troubling it is that Homeland Security agents are able to search the contents of electronic devices, such as computers and phones at the border, without any reason. The 4th Amendment only allows reasonable searches, usually with a warrant. But the general argument has long been that, when you're at the border, you're not in the country and the 4th Amendment doesn't apply. This rule has been stretched at times, including the ability to take your computer and devices into the country and search it there, while still considering it a "border search," for which the lower standards apply. Just about a month ago, we noted that Homeland Security saw no reason to change this policy. Well, now they might have to. In a somewhat surprising 9th Circuit ruling (en banc, or in front of the entire set of judges), the court ruled that the 4th Amendment does apply at the border, that agents do need to recognize there's an expectation of privacy, and cannot do a search without reason. Furthermore, they noted that merely encrypting a file with a password is not enough to trigger suspicion."

194 comments

  1. It's still smart to look clean... by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you cant host it securely online, then mail several MicroSD cards to your destination first to avoid the harassment by the TSA.

    Note: you can easily get a Micro SD through airport security without them questioning you, I forgot about one in my pocket and they did not even see it with the Naked scanners.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you cant host it securely online, then mail several MicroSD cards to your destination first to avoid the harassment by the TSA.

      Note: you can easily get a Micro SD through airport security without them questioning you, I forgot about one in my pocket and they did not even see it with the Naked scanners.

      I always swallow my MicroSD card before I begin travel and retrieve it after I arrive at my destination.

      Works great as long as my travel time is less than around 8 - 16 hours. I hate when my travel time is longer and I have to swallow it again.

    2. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      They can open those letters if they want to. Or at least that's been the case in the past. Not sure if this ruling would apply to that or not.

    3. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by craigminah · · Score: 0

      That was one of the funnier comments I've read here...too bad I'm all out of mod points.

    4. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      Ah, but if the data on the SD card you mail consists of every even numbered byte, while the one you carry has every odd numbered byte...

      (as long as your files aren't unencrypted ASCII characters stored in UTF-16...)

    5. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 1

      I always swallow my MicroSD card before I begin travel and retrieve it after I arrive at my destination.

      A wise precaution!

      "I swallowed my wedding ring when they came in... Get me some ipecac, I'd like to expunge it."

      --
      Who did what now?
    6. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Never thought Immodium was a part of a well rounded security system.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by youn · · Score: 1

      that was hilarious :)

      --
      Never antropomorphize computers, they do not like that :p
    8. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Deekin_Scalesinger · · Score: 0

      Which is why I transpose everything into ROT-13, then do it once more, for good measure! Try and catch me coppers muahahahahaha

      --
      "As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?
    9. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any case, that's a shitty idea. With all the crap they deploy at the borders, from X-Ray to T-Ray Imaging, i would not be to sure that they wont see you flock of sdcards stuck in your stomach, so they might detain you until you..... err.... "hand over" the cards...

    10. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Dahamma · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why bother... Just encrypt it with a random long key that you can't easily memorize and mail the key printed on a piece of paper. Then you can tell them you don't have the password even if they wanted it. I kind of doubt they are going to open up every random letter that goes through the post office.

      Though it's all kind of a silly hypothetical. No one at the border wants your actual data anyway, they just want to harass you over not being given access to it.

    11. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by burningcpu · · Score: 4, Funny

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a dude with a belly full of micro sd cards?

    12. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by dorfed · · Score: 2

      I see it now: sd-card sniffing dogs!

      --
      New signature coming soon.
    13. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by dorfed · · Score: 1

      /me likes this /sarcasm

      --
      New signature coming soon.
    14. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by dbIII · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ah, but if the data on the SD card you mail consists of every even numbered byte, while the one you carry has every odd numbered byte...

      That sounds much better than putting it up your endian.

    15. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 2

      I don't know about mailing micro SDs, but I was recently involved in trying to send a USB HDD through the mail from the US to Canada. Unsuccessful several times. USPS returned with no explanation.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    16. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "as long as your files aren't unencrypted ASCII characters stored in UTF-16..."

      Doesn't matter. They're still stored as bytes. You'd just be traveling with the first byte of each character. Or second, as the case may be.

      That's really more obfuscation than anything, though. I have little doubt that given the least-significant bytes, they could piece together the message eventually.

    17. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by meerling · · Score: 2

      Little too intense for me. Just keep it under your tongue, it's not like it'll melt, and so long as you don't cough, it'll be fine. Heck, you can even talk with a microsd under your tongue.

    18. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by hawguy · · Score: 2

      I don't know about mailing micro SDs, but I was recently involved in trying to send a USB HDD through the mail from the US to Canada. Unsuccessful several times. USPS returned with no explanation.

      Did you attach the correct customs form and accurately declare the contents?

      I've purchased server hard drives from Canadian eBay merchants without a problem, but haven't tried the other direction. But you'd think if the USPS was worried about information crossing the borders, they'd stop it in both directions.

    19. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by SleepyHappyDoc · · Score: 1

      That's actually not a bad idea. Two SD cards in RAID-0...you get better performance, and they're basically useless unless they're together, so you can ship them separately for the extra layer of security. Of course, you'd still want your data encrypted, but it wouldn't hurt.

      --
      Stasis is death. Embrace change.
    20. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by maz2331 · · Score: 2

      I, for one, am not putting that in my little endian. Others who are big-endian may do so if they wish.

    21. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Type44Q · · Score: 5, Funny

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a dude with a belly full of micro sd cards?

      How about "that's a shitload of storage?"

    22. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by camperdave · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ah, but if the data on the SD card you mail consists of every even numbered byte, while the one you carry has every odd numbered byte..

      I go one step better. I break it down to bits and store all the 1s are on one card, and all the 0s are on the other.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    23. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you cram ascii into UTF-16, you bet to byter per character, the second byte of the pair is always null.

    24. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Might be a Canadian problem. I've had numerous hard disks shipped from the USA to Australia (via USPS) without a problem.

    25. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by ukemike · · Score: 1

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a dude with a belly full of micro sd cards?

      Download. hehe hehe.

      --
      -- QED
    26. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by davester666 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Don't forget, Homeland security doesn't just claim the right to search like this at the borders, but even if you just happen to live and/or travel within 100 miles of the border, regardless of whether or not you have or plan to cross the border. And at all major transportation methods such as planes, buses and trains [both inter and intra-city], and at large public gatherings such as major sporting events like the Superbowl.

      I think if you combine all these area's together where Homeland Security believes the constitution doesn't cover you, there may be a few hundred square yards Wyoming which you still may have those rights.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    27. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      With all the crap they deploy at the borders, from X-Ray to T-Ray Imaging

      I've crossed the US border by land and air hundreds of times, at many different crossing points, and I've never once seen X-Ray or T-Ray imagining used by the CBP.

    28. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      I was recently involved in trying to send a USB HDD through the mail from the US to Canada. Unsuccessful several times

      Odd. We frequently ship hard drives in both directions between our American and Canadian offices. Never had a problem. Granted, we rarely use USPS or Canada Post... Almost always FedEx or UPS.

    29. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, you obviously didn't have any naked pictures or vid files on the SD for the Naked Scanners to detect.

    30. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by supersat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can say a lot of bad things about the TSA, but the TSA does not give a crap about your data. That's Customs and Border Protection.

    31. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "When you cram ascii into UTF-16, you bet to byter per character, the second byte of the pair is always null."

      I didn't know it was always null, but figured it usually was. That's what I meant when I said the message could be pieced together from one byte of each pair.

    32. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nonsense,

      Raid works in stripes of many kilobytes in size.
      You better look it up. Wikipedia and Serverfault have some good explanations of this.

    33. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget, Homeland security doesn't just claim the right to search like this at the borders, but even if you just happen to live and/or travel within 100 miles of the border, regardless of whether or not you have or plan to cross the border.

      Make sure that you place a Canadian flag on you property. That will prevent them from claiming that you "technically" aren't inside the U.S. border.

      Wouldn't donating U.S. soil to the enemy be considered treason?

    34. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by C0R1D4N · · Score: 2

      I thought they wanted to look at your hentai so they can send you down the river for any loli/shota you might have.

    35. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I break it all down into half-nary.

    36. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Simply+Curious · · Score: 1

      Or, since you're already going that route, just use a one-time pad.

    37. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by jd2112 · · Score: 2

      Not true. There are several hundred square miles in Alaska where the 4th still applies. Not that the moose and grizzly bear who live there appreciate that.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    38. Re: It's still smart to look clean... by chicago_scott · · Score: 1

      No offense, but it's hard to take security and privacy advice from someone who would go voluntarily go through a "naked scanner".

    39. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once my grade-school-aged grandson carried a pocket knife (2.5 to 3 inches long) through the TSA check point. After passing through the security area, he pulled the knife out and asked, "I can't bring this on the plane?". (He had just read the signs listed what couldn't be taken through the TSA station.) We told him to put it back in his pocket. We put it in his luggage when he returned home.

      The airport was in Houston--IAH. This TSA station does a lousy job at all times and the TSA people seem only intent on hassling travelers.

      I forgot to take my laptop out of the bag on our last trip and the X-ray screener missed it. The were greatly concerned that I wasn't wearing a belt and had everything our of my pockets. (I wear a plastic belt with a plastic buckle and a sweater or untucked shirt so they can't see the plastic belt. Everything else is in my carryon bag before I approach the TSA security station.)

      The TSA sucks!

    40. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      You are probably on some watch list.... You should report to the nearest Homeland Security office and turn yourself in.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    41. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by Lumpy · · Score: 0

      Houston's airport has handgun vending machines and AK's at the Duty Free shops.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    42. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by surmak · · Score: 1

      In a reasonable world, the inland "border" searches would be limited to those individuals whom the Border Patrol has reasonable suspicion to believe has recently entered the country and/or attempted to evade a search at the actual border.

      If they have no reason to believe I have been out of the country or an conspiring to smuggle contraband, then in a just world, they should not be able to search me. The rules would need to be written to allow then to search someone never left the US, but picked up a package of contraband that someone else moved across the border (perhaps by catapult). Other than those cases that actually involve the border DHS should have no authority.

    43. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't forget, Homeland security doesn't just claim the right to search like this at the borders, but even if you just happen to live and/or travel within 100 miles of the border ...

      Papers citizen. Now! Achtung!!!

      Not to mention, you now also consider yourselves "Cop of The World", and Seal Team Six recently proved they don't need a warrant to mete out capital punishment (not that I disapproved in any way in that case; that sucker was begging for it).

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    44. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Never thought Immodium (Loperamide?!? Huh.) was a part of a well rounded security system.

      People smuggle shiat into prisons all the time. You don't want it popping out at inopportune moments. It can be very embarassing. [No, I'm not speaking from experience.]

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    45. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by gmyuriy · · Score: 1

      I laughed my ass off :)))

    46. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a dude with a belly full of micro sd cards?

      How about "that's a shitload of storage?"

      Guffaw! A bazillion golf claps to you. I wonder what the access time is in that situation. What is the speed of stool?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    47. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a dude with a belly full of micro sd cards?

      Download.

      Please stop. No please, stop! You guys are killing me.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    48. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      In any case, that's a shitty idea. With all the crap they deploy at the borders ...

      You have a way with words, I've gotta say. "You can have my shitty cards. Here!" "Er, no thanks."

      You're not getting my passphrase. :-|

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    49. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Which is why I transpose everything into ROT-13, then do it once more, for good measure! Try and catch me coppers ...

      That would be a funny interchange to watch. "That file? It's doubly encrypted with ROT-13. Good luck!" "But I can read it, no problem." "Er, what? Maybe you just think you can."

      Don't believe the !@#$ you see on the Internet, kids.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    50. Re:It's still smart to look clean... by tqk · · Score: 1

      That's really more obfuscation than anything, though. I have little doubt that given the least-significant bytes, they could piece together the message eventually.

      You have more faith in "the authoritays" than I do. A geek with five minutes to spare could do it, but if the target's not OBL, they'll fall asleep before they get half way there. For mortals, obfuscation is indistinguishable from encryption.

      Dönitz never believed any of those who were screaming at him about the possibility that Enigma was breakable. Some people just refuse to learn anything more once they reach a certain age or position. The Darwin Effect, I think it's called.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    51. Re: It's still smart to look clean... by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Some people feel that the pat-down is more intrusive. Some people don't have body modesty (honestly, it's stupid) and therefore don't care. Hell, some people are just in a hurry.

      Some people also need to fly, either for work, or to see family, or just because they want to see more of the world than can be reached by car or boat any time this week.

      Sometimes, these people are the same person. My only concern with the nudie-scans is the possible radiation level.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  2. Hazzah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    About time the courts refute the absurdity of the state security paranoia.

    1. Re:Hazzah! by Rosyna · · Score: 5, Funny

      Do not worry, Scalia will save us from the Tyranny of the 9th Circuit!

    2. Re:Hazzah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, SCOTUS will never let this stand.

    3. Re:Hazzah! by maz2331 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And they upheld considering someone suspicious if they are a proven pedophile. The defendant didn't win - the evidence will still be used. They keyed on him because he has a long record of molesting kids and went back-and-forth to Mexico on a regular basis.

      The good thing about this case is laying out some parameters barring random suspicionless running a full-blown forensic exam on a device while still allowing known shady characters to be given a digital anal exam.

    4. Re:Hazzah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Looks like you didn't read the article or the ruling. The agents only knew he was a sex offender. They then inferred that it was for child porn or pedophilia, when in fact it was not. The entire premise for the search was for child porn because they thought he was a child molester, when in fact he was not. This is why he fought the searches in the first place.

    5. Re:Hazzah! by jthill · · Score: 4, Interesting
      This is false.

      The TECS hit indicated that Cotterman was a sex offender--he had a 1992 conviction for two counts of use of a minor in sexual conduct, two counts of lewd and lascivious conduct upon a child, and three counts of child molestation

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    6. Re:Hazzah! by tqk · · Score: 1

      True, SCOTUS will never let this stand.

      So, just a momentary outbreak of common sense? Pity. And here I was thinking, "Woohoo! They're not completely insane after all! Yay!" It'll be interesting to watch this show unfold (I doubt this is the end of it). It's kind of cool to see you can still jump-start that three hundred year old piece of parchment. Bon chance! :-)

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Hazzah! by tqk · · Score: 2

      And they upheld considering someone suspicious if they are a proven pedophile.

      Please explain why you have a problem with that. Conversely, why should anyone NOT consider them deserving of increased suspicion?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    8. Re:Hazzah! by tqk · · Score: 1

      This is false.

      The TECS hit indicated that Cotterman was a sex offender--he had a 1992 conviction for two counts of use of a minor in sexual conduct, two counts of lewd and lascivious conduct upon a child, and three counts of child molestation

      Thank you. I didn't bother to read TFA (this is /., after all :-). Great .sig too. Rock on!

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:Hazzah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, a pedophile isn't the same as a child molester to begin with.

    10. Re:Hazzah! by sycodon · · Score: 1

      The 9th usually goes all in for Government. So they must have all had their meds that day.

      As for the dumb ass snark about Scalia , in case you haven't noticed, he's not much of a supporter of Government's right to poke it's nose in your business.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    11. Re:Hazzah! by jythie · · Score: 2

      Well, in this case it sounds like he was a child molester too.

      However, once someone has done their time they are generally supposed to be treated like normal people again. So the police can not go 'there was a murder, round up all the convicted murders in the town and see if any of them did it'.

      It also is not very good police work since the recidivism rate on child molestation is actually very low, so applying extra scrutiny on previous offenders is unlikely to result in a new arrest. Generally if you are going to violate constitutional rights there should be a pretty high bar, which this use case does not represent.

    12. Re:Hazzah! by tqk · · Score: 1

      And they upheld considering someone suspicious if they are a proven pedophile.

      Please explain why you have a problem with that. Conversely, why should anyone NOT consider them deserving of increased suspicion?

      Well, a pedophile isn't the same as a child molester to begin with.

      That may (technically) be true (as in "just because you're a pedophile doesn't mean you've molested any children"). Still, that's a fairly fine line you're drawing. I'm not even a parent, but I think that's a shootin' thing (a tendency to *want* to molest children or even crave that sort of stuff; you need to die, or at least find a different hobby, soon).

      [Then again, I'm listening to "Allman Bros., Live at Fillmore East", so maybe I'm one of those contemptable "Good Old Boys" or something.]

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
  3. Makes sense by scottbomb · · Score: 3

    If you are attempting to smuggle in drugs and they catch you at the border, you still get arrested and charged with a crime. It's nice to see the court side in favor of liberty for a change.

    1. Re:Makes sense by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is, of course, the 9th circuit, where you'd pretty much expect this result from an en banc review (which for the 9th circuit probably means a limited en banc review by 11 judges, because I don't think all 29 judges have ever reviewed anything). The only way I could see them going the other way is if it were merely a three-judge panel with some of the most conservative judges on that court.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  4. I suddenly have a glimmer of hope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Let's see how long this lasts - it is the 9th Circuit, after all...

    1. Re:I suddenly have a glimmer of hope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      9th Circus. FTFY

  5. I think it's great, but... by DugOut · · Score: 3, Informative

    the 9th circuit is to the left of most courts, so there's a good chance that this will be overturned.

    1. Re:I think it's great, but... by rujholla · · Score: 2

      This would be one of the few times that I agree with the 9th circuit, and I'm not that far left. Maybe SC will leave this one be.

    2. Re:I think it's great, but... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that's not true. These are Federal courts appointed by whoever the President is at the time that the seat vacates, so for that circuit to get out of whack with the other ones by that degree would be rather unlikely.

      More likely, they see more cases that the right goes nuts about and people see that as evidence that they're further to the right. What's more, courts can only hear cases which are brought to them, they can't go out there and look for cases that they want to rule on.

    3. Re:I think it's great, but... by frig.neutron · · Score: 1

      why would they?

    4. Re:I think it's great, but... by rujholla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it is the right thing to do?

    5. Re:I think it's great, but... by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, there's a first time for everything, I suppose.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    6. Re:I think it's great, but... by meerling · · Score: 1

      What does that have to do with modern politics?

    7. Re:I think it's great, but... by Zcar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The 9th Circuit's rate of getting overturned by the Supreme Court is not unusual among the circuits. Every year some have a higher rate than the 9th and some lower. They just hear the most cases at the circuit level and generate the most appeals.

      All the circuits have a pretty high rate of getting overturned since there's some selection bias in the cases which are appealed to the court. First when deciding to file an appeal since you're not going to unless you think you can win. Second, in granting cert which only occurs when the justice responsible for the circuit thinks there's something to the appeal, else he or she would deny cert.

    8. Re:I think it's great, but... by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

      And for when the "the 9th circuit is overturned more times than any other" talking point comes up: well duh, they hear more cases than any other circuit too. IIRC by a significant margin...

    9. Re:I think it's great, but... by tqk · · Score: 1

      Maybe SC will leave this one be.

      why would they?

      That's the funniest (and possibly saddest) joke I've seen in some time. We should start a revolution. :-(

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    10. Re:I think it's great, but... by tqk · · Score: 1

      They just hear the most cases at the circuit level and generate the most appeals.

      And for when the "the 9th circuit is overturned more times than any other" talking point comes up: well duh, they hear more cases than any other circuit too.

      Department of Redundancy Department, Batman?

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    11. Re:I think it's great, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is insane. A court being "more left" directly contradicts the requirement that courts and their judges are independent.

    12. Re:I think it's great, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5, Funny

  6. 100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Now if we could get the Supreme Court to roll back their validation of DHS's declaration that the "border" actually extends 100 miles inland from the actual border. Half the population of the USA lives within this extended "border zone".

    1. Re:100 mile border by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      That picture only shows the outer border of the USA. But isn't a border also at every single international airport? After all, those airports have border controls,. So add to the graphics a 100 mile radius circle around every international airport.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:100 mile border by hedwards · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, that's not true. There is a small area inside the customs and quarantine area where you don't require a visa to be if you're traveling to another country, but that's related to international treaties and isn't a real border. It's also related to the fact that that's where they do the actual inspection and stuff as it's the most reasonable place to do the inspection.

    3. Re:100 mile border by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Add to that that whenever the local law enforcement 'cooperates' with the DHS under the VIPR program, they have access virtually anywhere. They use it to search for 'illegal' pot plantations using military spy drones.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    4. Re:100 mile border by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The extended border region doesn't obviate the need for reasonable suspicion. It is only in ports of entry that suspicion is not required to justify search.

    5. Re:100 mile border by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Informative

      I adopted a kid from outside the country... trust me, you get to know what is and is not international when you adopt. Most of the airport from the plane to the customs desk is "Border" Once they search your shit and you're through, you're "in country" In the united states, it's really nice. They have colored lines on the floor... once you're over the line, you're in the US. Most people don't notice. But when you have a screaming kid that doesn't speak your language, thinks you just kid-napped them and has a terrible case of Giardia, you become acutely aware of exactly where the united states border begins and ends.

    6. Re:100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      The extended border region doesn't obviate the need for reasonable suspicion. It is only in ports of entry that suspicion is not required to justify search.

      The ACLU seems to think otherwise:

      http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone

      • * Normally under the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the American people are not generally subject to random and arbitrary stops and searches.
      • * The border, however, has always been an exception. There, the longstanding view is that the normal rules do not apply. For example the authorities do not need a warrant or probable cause to conduct a “routine search.”
      • * But what is “the border”? According to the government, it is a 100-mile wide strip that wraps around the “external boundary” of the United States.
      • * As a result of this claimed authority, individuals who are far away from the border, American citizens traveling from one place in America to another, are being stopped and harassed in ways that our Constitution does not permit.
      • * Border Patrol has been setting up checkpoints inland — on highways in states such as California, Texas and Arizona, and at ferry terminals in Washington State. Typically, the agents ask drivers and passengers about their citizenship. Unfortunately, our courts so far have permitted these kinds of checkpoints – legally speaking, they are “administrative” stops that are permitted only for the specific purpose of protecting the nation’s borders. They cannot become general drug-search or other law enforcement efforts.
      • * However, these stops by Border Patrol agents are not remaining confined to that border security purpose. On the roads of California and elsewhere in the nation – places far removed from the actual border – agents are stopping, interrogating, and searching Americans on an everyday basis with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing.

      And the DHS doesn't seem to be afraid to stop and question motorists far from the "real" border even if there's no reasonable suspicion at all:

      http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ef3_1361978936

    7. Re:100 mile border by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Notice I used the word 'search', not the word 'stop'.

      The Border Patrol is allowed to set up checkpoints within the 60-100 mile region where it can conduct routine stops as part of its mission to control illegal immigration. At such places it is not allowed to conduct suspicion-less searches. They may ask you questions which you can respond to voluntarily.

      http://www.usborderpatrol.com/Border_Patrol300b.htm

      The only places that the Border Patrol is allowed to conduct suspicion-less searches is at ports of entry. Not generally along the border. Not 100 miles from the border. Only at ports of entry. Ports of entry include international airports that may be in the interior of the US.

      It is not a long-standing 'view'. It is the result of laws passed by the FIRST Congress of the United States, actually their 5th bill, known as the Tariff Act which was signed into law July 4 1789 by George Washington. For nearly 100 years tariffs were the chief source of funds for the operation of the Federal Government. Obviously to enforce and collect tariffs it is necessary to search people and goods entering the US.

      Since Congress is granted the power to regulate commerce by enumeration in the Constitution they can define reasonable search under the 4th Amendment to include inspecting everything that enters the country at a port of entry.

      Hope this clarifies the law for you.

    8. Re:100 mile border by n3r0.m4dski11z · · Score: 2

      "The extended border region doesn't obviate the need for reasonable suspicion"

      If its you and the cops word, I guarantee that the judge will trust the cop unless you have overwhelming evidence. And negative bonus points if the reason you are before this judge is that they found something in the officers illegal search.

      Dhs is I think american federal government, the state of washington just legalized marijuana. Is just one of the many examples of what could go horribly wrong for a law abiding citizen when you give police extra powers unnecessarily.

      --
      -
    9. Re:100 mile border by nothings · · Score: 1

      What SC validation? According to Wikipedia, it's the opposite: "the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent" and there's a link to such a ruling from 1973.

    10. Re:100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Notice I used the word 'search', not the word 'stop'.

      You may think it's ok for the government to stop you at any time and question who you are, where you came from, and where you're going, but fortunately many people (including myself) do not.

    11. Re:100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 3, Informative

      What SC validation? According to Wikipedia, it's the opposite: "the Supreme Court has clearly and repeatedly confirmed that the border search exception applies only at international borders and their functional equivalent" and there's a link to such a ruling from 1973.

      http://voices.yahoo.com/supreme-court-checkpoint-rulings-diminish-fourth-8598639.html

      In Martinez-Fuerte the court went on to add that while the stop does infringe upon a motorist' right to free passage without interruption, it is a minimal infringement. They also went on to state that a warrant for such a minor infringement was not necessary, despite the Fourth Amendments declaration that no search or seizure of a person or thing occur without a warrant issued by a detached neutral magistrate.

    12. Re:100 mile border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's not the border. The border is the usually agreed upon geographic boundaries and planes do cross over them, as soon as your over the line, the relevant countries have full say in what happens. Last international flight I had, I went over a little bit of the US when I was flying out, which meant that the US government got a say in whether or not I got to be on the plane.

      What you're talking about isn't the border, it's the administrative process and you are in the US once you cross the border, within that area you describe you're in the US, they just have the right to search your stuff and make sure that your papers are in order.

      Airports are a bit of an anomaly, but if what you said was true, there'd be no point to the treaty involved as it wouldn't be US soil and the US wouldn't have the right to stop you from moving to a new plane when transferring to a flight out of the country.

    13. Re:100 mile border by mdielmann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, this isn't unusual. I think the common phrase used in TVLand when this was done in the Eastern Bloc was, "Papers, please!" An excellent role model.

      Sad to think there are countries that were in the Eastern Bloc that now have freedoms that Americans don't.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    14. Re:100 mile border by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Try committing a crime (according to US law) somewhere "from the plane to the customs desk" in an American airport, and you'll quickly find out where the United States border actually begins and ends.

    15. Re:100 mile border by tipo159 · · Score: 1

      Border Patrol has been setting up checkpoints inland ... ferry terminals in Washington State ...

      Huh? How do you have inland ferry terminals? The relevant WA state ferry terminals (Port Angeles, San Juan Islands/Anacortes) are Ports of Entry. I think they are talking about the CBP agents picking up undocumented aliens from south of the border out in Forks (which is a bit of a drive from the ferry terminal in Port Angeles).

    16. Re:100 mile border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IATA rules leave enforcement in the "international zone" to the country hosting the airport. As a convenience.

      Now, embassies on the other hand...

    17. Re:100 mile border by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Notice I used the word 'search', not the word 'stop'. The Border Patrol is allowed to set up checkpoints within the 60-100 mile region where it can conduct routine stops as part of its mission to control illegal immigration. At such places it is not allowed to conduct suspicion-less searches. They may ask you questions which you can respond to voluntarily.

      While that is partially true, it doesn't really reflect the reality of it. I've read a few cases and during a "stop" they can search your vehicle well enough to ensure there are no other occupants without any suspicion. This means looking in your trunk, under your back seats and anywhere else at their discretion they decide is large enough to conceal a person. Anything they see in "plain sight" within this context - that is when they've opened the trunk to check there's no one there - is fair game to be used against you. However I read that a an officer that picked up a jacket, searched its pockets and found a small quantity of drugs was considered an illegal "search", so it's not entirely the same as a full-blown search. But they can do a lot more than "ask you questions" if they so please.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    18. Re:100 mile border by Kjella · · Score: 1

      They also went on to state that a warrant for such a minor infringement was not necessary, despite the Fourth Amendments declaration that no search or seizure of a person or thing occur without a warrant issued by a detached neutral magistrate.

      Except it doesn't explicitly say that, it says no "unreasonable searches and seizures" then lays out conditions for when a warrant makes it reasonable but doesn't explicitly say that is the only way. If a police officer chases a pickpocket, catches him "in the act" but together with the wallet also finds drugs in his pockets, is that then an unreasonable search? It is certainly made without a warrant. The courts have never interpreted the fourth amendment as strictly as that.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    19. Re:100 mile border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May I see your papers, citizen?

    20. Re:100 mile border by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      You need to read this more carefully. The government in the US does NOT have the right to stop you without a reason unless you are in a border checkpoint or point of entry.

    21. Re:100 mile border by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The essence of the 4th Amendment is searches must be 'reasonable'.

      I think a reasonable person would acknowledge the type of search you describe is necessary at ports of entry and border crossing checkpoints.

      Every sovereign nation protects their borders to at least this extent.

    22. Re:100 mile border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, but border checkpoints don't need to be on the border. You don't have to be even crossing the border to be forcible stopped and questioned. Many people live in that "border zone" where they can be stopped and questioned any time without cause. That's fucking wrong.

    23. Re:100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 1

      You need to read this more carefully. The government in the US does NOT have the right to stop you without a reason unless you are in a border checkpoint or point of entry.

      I read it, but just because you typed it doesn't make it true -- if you don't believe me, how about a spokesman from the DHS?

      http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/washington/news.aspx?id=101659

      DHS spokesman Jason Ciliberti says the ACLU’s description of the zone as "Constitution-Free" couldn’t be further from the truth and that the check points follow rules set by Supreme Court rulings.

      "“The 100-mile zone absolutely is not a Constitution-free zone,” said Jason Ciliberti, a supervisory border patrol agent with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection. “Those 100 miles are what essentially is said to be a reasonable distance from the boundary from the United States, and the Supreme Court has come down firmly on our side and said that what we’re doing is not unreasonable.”

      “The vast number of those encounters is very brief,” Ciliberti said. “If [necessary], agents do take some time to conduct investigations. But, of course, they conduct those investigations with due diligence and as minimally invasive as possible.”

      Even the DHS says that they are conducting checkpoints within that 100 mile "extended border".

    24. Re:100 mile border by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      it says no "unreasonable searches and seizures" then lays out conditions for when a warrant makes it reasonable but doesn't explicitly say that is the only way

      It doesn't have to, because that's what a warrant is: authorization to use special police powers, i.e. anything a normal citizen wouldn't have the right to do without any special authorization. By definition, in the absence of a warrant, no search or seizure of property has been legally authorized. If it were possible to legally perform a search or to seize property without a warrant then the 4th amendment's restrictions relating to probable cause and requiring specific declaration of the place to be searched and the items to be seized would be completely meaningless, rendering the 4th amendment null and void.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    25. Re:100 mile border by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The DHS representative said the exact same thing I did.

      The DHS operates 71 checkpoints in the extended border zone for the entire United States. This is NOT a large number.

      If you don't want to engage the DHS under the rules these checkpoints operate under, stay out of them.

      Within those checkpoints they routinely stop all traffic. That is an exception to the normal standards of the 4th Amendment. Such exceptions also operate in ports of entry. Congress and the courts have both determined that it is 'reasonable' under the terms of the 4th amendment that the Border Patrol be able to stop citizens without any suspicion within these check points. They also have rules that allow an inspection of vehicles on a 'selective' basis. Searches require an even higher standard.

      Outside those checkpoints (including in the extended border zone) they do not have the right to stop you without a reasonable suspicion - which is the same standard all law enforcement is held to.

      The ACLU has adopted the position that the existence of these check points is of grave concern. Well, of course it is. Any suspension of the 4th Amendment normal default terms is worrying. But let's be clear. All nations do have a right to control their borders, and they exercise that right. These exceptions do not apply to the entire extended border, only at a limited number of checkpoints which may be located within this border.

      Saying that the entire extended border is a '4th Amendment free zone' is at best a gross exaggeration of the actual state of affairs.

    26. Re:100 mile border by hawguy · · Score: 1

      The DHS representative said the exact same thing I did.

      The DHS operates 71 checkpoints in the extended border zone for the entire United States. This is NOT a large number.

      If you don't want to engage the DHS under the rules these checkpoints operate under, stay out of them.

      Oh,well that's easy - as long as I don't want to travel on any of the roads where they conduct checkpoints, I don't need to stop at them. Why didn't you say so - that's not a violation of my rights at all! I can just stay home if I don't want to be stopped.

      Within those checkpoints they routinely stop all traffic. That is an exception to the normal standards of the 4th Amendment. Such exceptions also operate in ports of entry. Congress and the courts have both determined that it is 'reasonable' under the terms of the 4th amendment that the Border Patrol be able to stop citizens without any suspicion within these check points. They also have rules that allow an inspection of vehicles on a 'selective' basis. Searches require an even higher standard.

      Yes, that is exactly what I'm complaining about the "exception to the normal standards of the 4th Amendment. I'm not complaining about searches and stops at ports of entry, I'm complaining about the stops that are up to 100 miles inland from a port of entry where a citizen is stopped even if he's not entering the country.

      Outside those checkpoints (including in the extended border zone) they do not have the right to stop you without a reasonable suspicion - which is the same standard all law enforcement is held to.

      Are you reading impaired? It's those checkpoints in the extended border zone that I'm complaining about. I never said DHS could stop you anywhere any time, I said that they can stop you within the 100 mile zone - which happens to encompass more than half the population of the USA. They may have "only" 71 checkpoints today, but what's to stop them from setting up more tomorrow? As you've said, it's already perfectly legal.

      The ACLU has adopted the position that the existence of these check points is of grave concern. Well, of course it is. Any suspension of the 4th Amendment normal default terms is worrying. But let's be clear. All nations do have a right to control their borders, and they exercise that right. These exceptions do not apply to the entire extended border, only at a limited number of checkpoints which may be located within this border.

      Saying that the entire extended border is a '4th Amendment free zone' is at best a gross exaggeration of the actual state of affairs.

      But you just said that the checkpoints are "an exception to the normal standards of the 4th Amendment" - how is that not a 4th Amendment free zone? If the normal standards of the 4th Amendment don't apply, what do you call it?

    27. Re:100 mile border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying that the entire extended border is a '4th Amendment free zone' is at best a gross exaggeration of the actual state of affairs.

      The whole idea of an "extended border" is offensive to reason. A border is, by definition, what separates one territory from another. If you're 100 miles from the border, you're not at the border.

      I think it would be more appropriate to call it a DMZ.

  7. Stopped Reading after "9th Circuit" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    None of the circuit courts have been over-rulled by the Supreme Court as much as the 9th circuit. They make some really wacky decisions.

    1. Re:Stopped Reading after "9th Circuit" by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 1

      The 6th and 5th are ahead of the 9th in percentage of overturned cases. At least they were the last time I checked a year or two ago. Still, a nearly 80% overturned when reviewed rate is not something to be proud of. And, yes, they are almost always erring on the side of the left when they're overturned.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    2. Re:Stopped Reading after "9th Circuit" by Zcar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      80% isn't bad because there's a selection bias toward cases which are likely to be overturned in cases appealed to the Supreme Court as well as with the Court's decision to grant certiorari. Cases which don't have a chance at getting overturned often either aren't appealed or aren't granted certiorari.

  8. 9th Circuit... Don't hold your breath... by HaeMaker · · Score: 0

    9th Circuit is the most liberal, it has a good chance of being overturned or modified by SCOTUS.

    1. Re:9th Circuit... Don't hold your breath... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 9th circuit isn't more likely to be overturned. They have a higher number of cases overturned because they hear more cases.

    2. Re:9th Circuit... Don't hold your breath... by maz2331 · · Score: 2

      Not in this case - the Feds can't appeal it because they won, and I really doubt that the other side has a shot at appealing to SCOTUS and getting cert granted.

  9. Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Bill of Rights are more about denying the government power to: rather then allowing it the power to impugn upon the inherent rights of the people . Misunderstanding of that simple fact has led to many constitutionally dubious laws and regulations. Without clear reasons, the government should not be impeding a citizen's free and anonymous travel.

    1. Re:Allow? by cavreader · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And the public can challenge the "constitutionally dubious laws and regulations" if charged with a crime. However venting outrage online or on the street over a law is not going to just make the government say OK were sorry and we will trash the law you are complaining about.

        There have been search-and-surveillance activities such as the case brought against Dr Arian, a former University of South Florida professor. His defense successfully challenged the Patriot Act and got the evidence collected using the Patriot Act excluded from the proceedings. To change bad laws or policies you need to challenge the validity of such laws or policies in open court. It might be a long haul but the judicial branch of the government has the last word on whether you were denied your rights. They are also empowered to invalidate Legislation created by the government. Any law such as the Patriot Act can only be really scrutinized for it's legality when it is actually used against someone. The government already thinks the Patriot Act is iffy. They use Gitmo to avoid following any laws in the US. The US government may be cumbersome and outright idiotic at times but it is not a static organization. It is constantly being scrutinized and changed. It is by no means perfect but it could be worse. Governing 350 million people and trying to make sure everyone's interests are satisfied is damn near impossible but can be entertaining at times. No matter what changes the government makes there will always be people complaining about something. People talk about US decline and I wonder when did the US ever get to pinnacle of righteousness and prosperity to they are supposed to declining from? Just take a look at US history and point out where the US had no flaws were not committing idiotic and sometimes dangerous and brutal acts in the domestic and international spheres.

    2. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My sentiments exactly. Protections for rights were written into the Constitution because the framers believed everyone had those rights inherently.

      Being outside the borders of the country just means our government has no jurisdiction to protect those rights, not that they don't exist.

      IMHO, if you believe that civil rights only apply to American citizens, or those inside US borders, then you don't really believe in America or democracy.

    3. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Protections for rights were written into the Constitution because the framers believed everyone had those rights inherently.

      Well, not everyone...

    4. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Well, not everyone...

      True. All white male landowners. But those rights have since been acknowledged as applying to everyone by US courts in the intervening time.

    5. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Never claimed to express myself well with words, either vocally or written. Amongst other poor choices of expression, I should have used "person" or similar instead of "citizen", even if we are all citizens of the universe. It probably pushed its way into my choice of words due to the steady increase over the years of the "show me your papers please" laws and procedures being pressed upon us. These also increasingly include unconstitutional(IMO) search and seizures.

    6. Re:Allow? by mdielmann · · Score: 2

      People talk about US decline and I wonder when did the US ever get to pinnacle of righteousness and prosperity to they are supposed to declining from?

      Pinnacles are where things stop going up and start going down. Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus? Going up. Little kids getting groped in the name of security in a highly insecure queue? Going down. When the overall trend is downward, yep, that's called a decline.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    7. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the public can challenge the "constitutionally dubious laws and regulations" if charged with a crime.

      And there's the rub. Once you are charged with a crime, you are considered the bad guy in the eyes of the authorities, the media, and the uninformed masses which lowers your credibility. This makes it unlikely that the law will be overturned as you want, and instead you'll face financial ruin, prison time, or both. Conveniently, it is also very difficult to get unconstitutional laws revoked by the court system by normal concerned citizens worried about the unjust law but who haven't been affected by it yet, as they will not take cases where the plaintiff has no standing. The only ones who have standing are those who have been criminalised and 'processed'.

      It's a catch 22.

    8. Re:Allow? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My cousin had his rights violated and was murdered by a State Trooper in 2010. It was only last year when the trooper was put on trial for negligent homicide. He was acquitted. My family has still hasn't heard anything from the DOJ about whether they are going to press federal civil rights violation charges. A federal district court already ruled that his rights were violated when they kicked his door in without a warrant and shot him in the heart over a minor traffic accident.

  10. Could at least spell check the headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Suspiscious???

    1. Re:Could at least spell check the headline by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      Suspiscious???

      Also known as fishy. :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    2. Re:Could at least spell check the headline by ballpoint · · Score: 1

      Suspiscious???

      Also known as fishy. :-)

      Sorry, I'm out of +1, Witty points.

      --
      Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
  11. Update, 10 May 2013 by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Informative

    Reuters - In a multi-agency action described by Homeland Security as "necessary for the public good", the United States Ninth Circuit Court was raided by U.S. Marshalls. All members of the judiciary were handcuffed and taken away for processing as "enemy combatants". A White House spokesman declined comment, other than to note the judges were being transported to Guantanamo Bay.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Update, 10 May 2013 by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mommy! Grandpa dumped all of his medications in the goldfish bowl again!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Update, 10 May 2013 by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      No, this is Obama, he wouldn't do that.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:Update, 10 May 2013 by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      That's one happy fish!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  12. Sanity prevails. by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    Sanity prevails. How uncommon, and how good for it to occur. I'll have to read the details of the case that made it this far up the chain. Will this circuit court ruling have repercussions and applications outside of its jurisdiction, or is the rest of the country on its own still? IANAL, BIYAAL, WYCTC? (but if you are a lawyer, would you care to comment?)

  13. Authoritarians! Not to worry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The SCOTUS will soon overturn this because of the following reasons:
    1) Terrorism
    2) Child pornography
    3) Drugs

    Carry on, citizens!

    1. Re:Authoritarians! Not to worry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The SCOTUS will soon overturn this because of the following reasons:
      1) Terrorism
      2) Child pornography
      3) Drugs

      Carry on, citizens!

      4) ???
      5) Prophet

    2. Re: Authoritarians! Not to worry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prophet.

      Assuming that was a typo, that's one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

  14. So if you're not in the US where are you? by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    >But the general argument has long been that, when you're at the border, you're not in the country and the 4th Amendment doesn't apply.

    If I shoot the border guard then the US laws don't apply?

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    1. Re:So if you're not in the US where are you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's an Act of War.

    2. Re:So if you're not in the US where are you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically it's similar to being in international waters. You are essentially between two borders, the one you came from, and your destination.

      Likely the laws of the place you traveled from would prevail but murder, as far as I'm aware, isn't legal anywhere.

    3. Re:So if you're not in the US where are you? by meerling · · Score: 1

      As there was no declaration of war, and it's of limited scope, it's probably just going to be declared a police action. :p

  15. 4th amendment no longer exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read up on the Terry Doctrine. You can be stopped and searched any time, all you need to do is behave suspiciously.

    1. Re:4th amendment no longer exists by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Well, you're coming into our country.. that is pretty suspicious..

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    2. Re:4th amendment no longer exists by meerling · · Score: 1

      These days it seems they have declared breathing suspicious.
      And holding your breath for that matter.

    3. Re:4th amendment no longer exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These days it seems they have declared breathing suspicious.
      And holding your breath for that matter.

      Why are you holding your breath? Do you have something to hide?

    4. Re:4th amendment no longer exists by camperdave · · Score: 3, Funny

      Why are you holding your breath? Do you have something to hide?

      "Yes, Weapons grade halitosis".

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    5. Re:4th amendment no longer exists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      doctor recommended, legally created, cannabis and it's breakdowns vs often slurred with the DOJ name pot, and marijuana arrests and meth, and SSRI's and banning gun ownership.

      There's your new bitch you non-thinking fuck tards

      Get that up in their faces. Just how many cannabis("minus the biased slur crap language and outright lies, and polls, and corporate paid media sucking off our teets") people kill motherfuckers? About as many TERRORISTS the fucking DHS has caught since it's inception.

      Uncomfortable?

      2billion bullets 2.9K Tanks and "Constitution Free" programmed officials and drones - Who has possession of it? Classified Terrorists who freely access our most top secrets 8GB at a motherfucking time? And you dare to call ME a fucking "domestic terrorist" or "combatant" cause I say you have broke the public trust, commit treason, and conspire against the US Constitution and Bill of rights?

      Yeah this isn't going to go much longer. The "INSERT SENATOR NAME HERE" Dual US + ISRAELI citizen, oath breaker, with rituals to unbind oaths. You know that BITCH's name FEINSTEIN

      How about that bitch either give up her ISRAELI citizenship or Be Stripped, have here Rulings Stripped, Votes Stripped, Appointees Stripped, Laws Stripped, Bills Stripped, her Own Employment Stripped, as she is FORCEFULLY SENT TO FT LEAVENWORTH FOR TREASON

      That's the America I want.
      I want HONEST PEOPLE TO SERVE

      Otherwise this ain't going to work

  16. Irrelevant jurisdiction? by TheSpoom · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't the Supreme Court have to rule for this to apply? Couldn't the DHS just accept this ruling and not appeal, thus keeping the status quo because the border is a national issue and this hasn't been ruled upon by a body with national jurisdiction?

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by Letophoro · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't the Supreme Court have to rule for this to apply? Couldn't the DHS just accept this ruling and not appeal, thus keeping the status quo because the border is a national issue and this hasn't been ruled upon by a body with national jurisdiction?

      Not necessarily. The ruling by the 9'th circuit applies everywhere that falls under the jurisprudence of the court. If the DHS appeals, they can probably keep the status quo until the SCOTUS makes a ruling.

    2. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The 9th Circuit cover the all states west of and including Montana, Nevada and Arizona. The ruling has no direct impact outside of those states. DHS has no choice if they want to do what they have been than to appeal. In the mean time this ruling does put limits on DHS in the area of the 9th.

      That round the world trip I was planning will now be going eastward.

      A.B.A.I.L.
      Anonymous Because I Am Lazy

    3. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Sorry to break this to you, no matter what Rush Limbaugh thinks, the Ninth Circuit is still** part of the United States.

      ** Yes, Virginia - California, Washington, Hawaii and Oregon are included within the legal and political boundaries of the United States. We're not so sure of Alaska, but since the Canadians don't want it and you can't see Russia from there, it appears we're stuck with it.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

      Nope.

      The decision of this court is binding on all the lower courts in its district. It covers pretty much the western 1/5 of the United States as the 9th is the largest district (at one time it even covered part of China). It's possible courts in other districts will use it as precedence as well unless a different circuit court rules the opposite way.

      Conflicting appellate rulings are one of ways to trigger Supreme Court interest.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent#Type_of_precedent

    5. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 0

      Sorry to break this to you, no matter what Rush Limbaugh thinks, the Ninth Circuit is still** part of the United States.

      ** Yes, Virginia - California, Washington, Hawaii and Oregon are included within the legal and political boundaries of the United States. We're not so sure of Alaska, but since the Canadians don't want it and you can't see Russia from there, it appears we're stuck with it.

      Wow. You go out of your way to bash Rush and Palin, and show your ignorance of basic geography. I would leave this one alone, but some gullible people might actually believe you without fact-checking your statement, and I don't want them to be misinformed.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    6. Re:Irrelevant jurisdiction? by meerling · · Score: 1

      Actually you can see Russia from there. Well, specific parts of course, it's not like you get ultravision or anything. :)

  17. You're a fucking idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The 9th circuit is overruled more only because they hear more cases than the other courts. Proportionally to the amount of cases heard, other courts have been overrulled more in the past.

    But of course you don't want to hear that. You'll just go back to your lies and your Rush Limbaugh.

  18. 4th Amendment Applies At Border by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Funny

    Great! Now we need to apply it in the interior of the country.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:4th Amendment Applies At Border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mod OP informative because it's true. The trooper that murdered my cousin testified that they had received little to no 4th amendment training and that's why they thought they had probable cause to kick his door in without a warrant (he asked to see one), pepper spray him in the face, then shoot him once in the heart because he might have just possibly maybe had a weapon. He did not. They were responding to a minor, non-injury, one vehicle accident. His last words were, "You know it's illegal for you to be here." The trooper was acquitted of negligent homicide.

    2. Re:4th Amendment Applies At Border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, right... Let's see a link to the story.

    3. Re:4th Amendment Applies At Border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, it is very true.
      http://coloradoradio.com/2012/04/11/state-trooper-testifies-at-his-trial/

      My aunt and uncle sued for wrongful death with the help of the ACLU which ended in a settlement including policy and training changes and $1 million. Both troopers were given back pay for their suspension then fired later after an internal investigation. They were fired even though throughout the trial the Colorado State Patrol insisted they had done nothing wrong. They are still free. We are trying to get the DOJ to press criminal civil rights violation charges against them. A Federal District Court judge ruled before the state trial that both troopers did violate my cousin's rights but that wasn't allowed to be mentioned during the trial.

    4. Re:4th Amendment Applies At Border by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jeebus! I had no idea things were getting that stupid up there (I'm not in the states). That's just downright shameful.And they're worried about us having guns. So sad, to think that probably over 60-70% of the cops are that dumb and arrogant. *shudder*. Well, let's hope this cameras and internet thing can help correct this. At least people can no longer claim ignorance of the situation. They have to see the kind of society they have created.

  19. wow, fight the police state. by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    I am glad to see a judge actually take a stand against the tidal wave that has been eroding our liberties.

  20. Nice by fuego451 · · Score: 2

    Another confirmation of our constitution by the courts that the TSA, the DOJ and any law enforcement officer can completely ignore.

    1. Re:Nice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another confirmation of our constitution by the courts that the TSA, the DOJ and any law enforcement officer can completely ignore.

      TSA != customs

  21. Company policy... by niftymitch · · Score: 1
    Company policy should mandate full system encryption and yes individual file encryption. The policy should present a clear policy and contact point for legal search requests.

    Should you be asked to enter a password request then verify that paper has been served on your company. Carry a hard copy of the company policy.

    We hear time and time again that data of thousands of individuals is lost or at risk and this includes govment agencies.

    Even a personal laptop can contain HIPPA protected information that is covered by regulations and law. HIPPA information is interesting in that it is compartmentalized yet managed like Classified/Secret/TopSecret data and also requires training and background checks.

    Trade secrets, pre-release copyright material, multi-party data like contracts can require notification and involvement of the other parties domestic and international.

    Do not forget there is a method and system to cache and encrypt large files via a cloud service where the key to access the files is small compared to the data and is only available and accessed via an encrypted VPN link. Simple extension to GIT, Mercurial and "repo" (etc.). Companies can change the key and thus the key-hash to trigger a scrub of the data in a way that is not different than the entry of a fail safe VPN/server access key, ssh connection, local media and removable media to include OCR decoding of text from paper records recovered from digital camera images of text or some other common encoding bar code, or 2D code blocks of any high school geometric shape or projection.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  22. If only this would apply to non-US citizens. by dorfed · · Score: 1

    From the USCIS site
    http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=02729c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=02729c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD:
    "
    Legal Disclaimer
    ... There have been rare cases in which a particular program is of such general interest and importance that the OCC has rendered a formal legal opinion. As a matter of policy, we have determined that providing legal opinions to private parties in matters that may come before immigration officials is inappropriate. For this reason, we are unable to express an opinion on the issues submitted by the public.

    "

    --
    New signature coming soon.
    1. Re:If only this would apply to non-US citizens. by dorfed · · Score: 1

      In other words, complaints from immigrants will be ignored.

      --
      New signature coming soon.
  23. Rest of the country by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Now if only we could get the constitution to be applicable to the rest of the country we would be golden.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  24. Better summary of decision by Freddybear · · Score: 5, Informative

    Volokh has a somewhat more thorough summary of the decisions here:

    http://www.volokh.com/2013/03/08/interesting-ninth-circuit-en-banc-on-computer-searches-of-course-citing-orin/

            [A] border search of a computer is not transformed into an “extended border search” requiring particularized suspicion simply because the device is transported and examined beyond the border.... [T]he fact that the forensic examination occurred 170 miles away from the border did not heighten the interference with the defendant’s privacy, and the extended border search doctrine does not apply, in this case in which the defendant’s computer never cleared customs and the defendant never regained possession....

            [T]he forensic examination of the defendant’s computer required a showing of reasonable suspicion, a modest requirement in light of the Fourth Amendment.... [I]t is the comprehensive and intrusive nature of forensic examination — not the location of the examination — that is the key factor triggering the requirement of reasonable suspicion here.... [T]he uniquely sensitive nature of data on electronic devices, which often retain information far beyond the perceived point of erasure, carries with it a significant expectation of privacy and thus renders an exhaustive exploratory search more intrusive than with other forms of property....

            [In this case,] the border agents had reasonable suspicion to conduct an initial search at the border (which turned up no incriminating material) and the forensic examination. The en banc court wrote that the defendant’s Treasury Enforcement Communication System alert, prior child-related conviction, frequent travels, crossing from a country known for sex tourism, and collection of electronic equipment, plus the parameters of the Operation Angel Watch program aimed at combating child sex tourism, taken collectively, gave rise to reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. ...

            [P]assword protection of files, which is ubiquitous among many law-abiding citizens, will not in isolation give rise to reasonable suspicion, but ... password protection may be considered in the totality of the circumstances where, as here, there are other indicia of criminal activity.... [T]he existence of password-protected files is also relevant to assessing the reasonableness of the scope and duration of the search of the defendant’s computer.... [T]he examination of the defendant’s electronic devices was supported by reasonable suspicion and that the scope and manner of the search were reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

    1. Re:Better summary of decision by jthill · · Score: 1

      Volokh's great, but techdirt embedded the full summary and opinion, which volokh merely excerpted (and imho they missed the best part, where the 9th bypassed both parties' arguments and re-addressed the limits on reasonable suspicion of their own accord.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    2. Re:Better summary of decision by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately after reading the dissenting opinion, I'm more inclined to agree with that one.

      1) It makes an entirely illogical and unprincipled distinction between digital and regular information. If you carry a personal diary with your most innermost and intimate thoughts it would now be stronger protected on an iPad than a paper diary, which is still subject to border search because it doesn't require forensics to examine.

      2) It makes a strange argument on quantity of information on digital devices, which seem to imply that the more of your life you take with you across the border, the better protected it should be. The dissenting opinion is the closest thing I've seen to humor in a court decision, it shows just how absurd this would be.

      3) Most importantly, it creates a bar of reasonable suspicion yet sets it ridiculously low. To quote the dissenting opinion:

      All things considered, the fact that an individual with a 15-year-old sex conviction was also a frequent traveler appears to be a rather weak lynchpin for reasonable suspicion. Yet, other than Cotterman's prior conviction and travels, the factors cited by the majority are far too generalized to provide even an indicia of suspicion that Cotterman was involved in sex tourism.

      In fact, the court several times starts with the conclusion "if he were a child pornographer" then works out the premises, then he'd be likely to have a digital camera, then he'd be travelling to countries know for underage sex tourism such as Mexico, then he'd password protect his files then completely and utterly ignores how many people would travel to Mexico with a digital camera and a password protected file without being child pornographers. All this does is water out "reasonable suspicion" to mean "extremely circumstantial evidence that may mean the person has a marginally higher probability of committing this crime than the average citizen." It is pretty much the legalization of "Driving While Black" pullovers if they have a marginally higher crime rate.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Better summary of decision by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but wasn't it referring to the case where the guy was in fact a convicted offender?

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  25. Are these the end times? by dunkindave · · Score: 1

    Congressmen demanding the White House give citizens due process, the Obama Administration petitioning the court so that people are free to photograph police, and now the courts saying the 4th Amendment applies to people at the border? What is next, cats and dogs sleeping together?

  26. The "Elite" factor by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is my first reaction to this article, "I wonder what the name was of the politician/judge/rich guy who had his device grabbed by the DHS because it had a passworded file on it?"

    Because, sadly, recent court rulings have left me so jaded and cynical that I can't believe that they would side with the people on a matter of rights unless one our Elite masters had been affected by it first.

    Of course, not that it matters much. Cops have been known to ignore unfavorable rulings. Just look how often cops still get in a snit when they catch somebody filming them doing their job, despite repeated rulings that it is perfectly legal. Who watches the watchmen? Increasingly, nobody.

    1. Re:The "Elite" factor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The way to fix it is very simple. We need a clearly worded law that the government is responsible for damages (physical, emotional and reputation), and legals fees in all cases where there is an acquittal by jury or even an arrest that results in dropped charges.

      We've gone far too long allowing the police to use arrest powers to harass people just to have the charges dropped because they are unfounded. The US needs to start holding those we entrust to uphold our laws to much higher standards.

      This will help force the police, and DAs to make careful prosecutorial choices. It will also encourage the legislatures to write clearly defined laws.

      It also prevents abuse of the purse, where the gov't has such vast $ resources beyond an individual that they can use stalling tactics to bankrupt or coerce an outcome favorable to themselves.

  27. Original Intent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know original intent is not the only valid way of interpreting the constitution, but if you look at the list of complaints in the Declaration of Independence, by many of the same people who went on to write the constitution, Unwarranted searches at the border was their specific complaint.

  28. First Drone Killing On US Soil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our lovely Janet Napolitano has penned an URGENT request of the President.

    In short she demands the killing of the 9th Circuit Judge and all, on the basis that
    they are now Enemy Combatants, Enemy Of The State, and Persona Non Gratis.

    She, On Woman's Day, demands the immediate killings.

    Question: Will Obama give Favor to his Favorite ?

    BTW, the pilot who spotted a Homeland Security Drone near JFK Airport is now in Syria,
    at a CIA rendition and torture prison undergoing 'electric' methods of 'pleasure'.

  29. Disappointing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm disappointed that they linked it to DHS at the border only. I want the courts to stop the California highway cops from pulling me over, "I suspect you did something naughty, hand me your cell phone so I can suck its data out."

  30. A wonderful system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are told to encrypt your data to protect your privacy then that very encryption is used to make your attempt to protect your private data look like an attempt to hide some criminal act so they get you coming and going.

    As a Canadian who wants to make another trip to Disneyland soon, and not being able to afford to have any of my good equipment confiscated for inspection at the border, I already plan not to bring any electronics across the border except a camera and, maybe, a factory reset but unlocked cheap smart phone with no data, no call history, no downloaded apps and an absolutely empty, freshly formatted micro SD card. I'll get a prepaid service SIM card from a US carrier for the phone and make my connection to the internet from there. I'd buy a small notebook computer in the States for web browsing related to travelling and do all the rest of the email and browsing via a secured VNC connection to the machines back home.

    Nothing strange to see except the absence of anything important. Not even encrypted files for them to be suspicious about.

    I wonder if they'd try to force me to login to my Canadian email account remotely via webmail to check it out.

  31. Foreigners? by zachie · · Score: 1

    Does this protection also apply to visiting foreigners, or are only Americans protected by this?

    1. Re:Foreigners? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a sort of acknowledgement that all the rights in the Constitution and Amendments apply to everyone except the privilege of holding office and voting. That's reserved to citizens, natural-born or naturalized. Then there's the extra requirement that the President be a natural born American.

      But, in practice, since citizens are losing their rights without consent or question, I wouldn't expect visitors to have any hope of being treated any better.

    2. Re:Foreigners? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Informative

      So far, in pretty much all cases where that distinction was attempted to be raised, courts have consistently ruled that when US Constitution speaks of "people", it means everyone, not just citizens. Which is a very sensible interpretation, since the Constitution also uses the more specific term "citizens" on a few occasions (e.g. the original text, where it lays out the prerequisites for various government offices, or the 15th amendment, which protects the right of citizens to vote).

  32. Did anybody read the decision? by Animats · · Score: 1

    The district court ruled that the evidence obtained by the search should be suppressed and not admissible as evidence, which means the defendant could not be convicted. The Court of Appeals for the 9th circuit reversed that decision and held that the search was permissible:
    For the above reasons, we conclude that the examination of Cotterman's electronic devices was supported by reasonable suspicion and that the scope and manner of the search were reasonable under the Fourth Amendment. Cotterman's motion to suppress therefore was erroneously granted.
    REVERSED.

    Cotterman (the defendant) goes to jail.

    Yes, there's some dicta there indicating that there are limits on search authority at the border, but the threshold of suspicion is so low as to be meaningless.

    1. Re:Did anybody read the decision? by jthill · · Score: 1

      Are you seriously arguing that it's unreasonable to suspect someone with seven convictions for various flavors of child molestation of involvement with child porn?

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
    2. Re:Did anybody read the decision? by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Don't know about OP, but I would have serious issues if that was all there was, yes.

      Fortunately the judges did not look at just the previous convictions, but as much at the pattern of travel to places known to be friendly to child prostitution.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    3. Re:Did anybody read the decision? by jthill · · Score: 1

      erk. yes, going on just what I wrote I'd have to agree with you; in my defense I have to point out that I was writing in the context of this border stop and the documented consultation with people tracking travel patterns and such.

      --
      As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
  33. To whom does this apply? by Aethedor · · Score: 1

    Does this rule only apply to americans or to foreigners as well?

    --
    It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
  34. You could always, you know, read the decision by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    I like how tripe like this gets moderated up as insightful. It is nothing of the sort. If you go and read the actual decision, which you can easily find, and other people have linked to you will see that indeed it was just a normal person. It gets rather tiring to see this continual whining on Slashdot that is completely unfounded and gets moderated up as "insightful."

    If you wanted to criticize this decision, there are some legitimate grounds. It still allows for quite wide latitude in searches at the border. For that matter the conviction in this case was upheld. The court ruled that the search was reasonable, just that it would not have been in more narrow circumstances. However rather than read the actual decision, you decided to simply spout off.

    Attention moderators: Something is not insightful simply because it is a narrative you agree with. Please do at least a minimal amount of research to see if a comment is actually insightful. It is rather hard for something to be both insightful and wrong at the same time.

    http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2013/03/08/09-10139.pdf

    1. Re:You could always, you know, read the decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh...

      He wasn't commenting on the merits of this case. He was commenting on the fact that due to past cases his first reaction was to assume it was someone rich/powerful instead of the average joe because it seemed to be in favor of individual rights. That type of ruling generally doesn't get made with most reaffirming the near-absolute authority of the government and its agencies.

    2. Re:You could always, you know, read the decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could always read the post you're criticizing. The poster ask "why" about the nature of his initial reaction, pointing out his suspicion that justice is reserved for the wealthy. Largely true.

  35. No kidding by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    What's even more amusing is that it was moderated up as "informative." I fail to see how something can be informative when it is pure fantasy. It's also somewhat ridiculous fantasy for anyone who knows law enforcement, as they'd know that the marshals service are actually the ones who protect federal judges.

    While I'm certainly not a fan of many of the recent more authoritarian changes the US has undergone, the paranoid ramblings that come out of some people on Slashdot are quite ridiculous.

    What's even funnier is that this ruling is actually a partial win for the federal government. The District Court that heard the appeal, threw out the search. The Ninth Circuit reversed that, saying the search was reasonable based off of all of the evidence. However they impose some limits upon future searches by saying that simple encryption is not enough reason for search. Also they left open the possibility for a case-by-case review of searches by the courts.

    1. Re:No kidding by alexgieg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While I'm certainly not a fan of many of the recent more authoritarian changes the US has undergone, the paranoid ramblings that come out of some people on Slashdot are quite ridiculous.

      The problem is that over time all the many tiny bits of authoritarianism add up. Sure, it's pure fantasy to say things are like that now, or will be like that next month, year or even decade. But let things pile up over 50 or 100 years and see the result.

      In fact, some political theorists, Antonio Gramsci being the most known although the members of the Frankfurt School also have dwelt in this line of reasoning, have proposed that a slow method doing small changes of decades is the correct way to go about doing a revolution in any country with a decentralized power structure. That's because such countries, differently from those in which power is strongly centralized, cannot be changed overnight by "merely" replacing the all powerful central power structure via a violent revolution and starting giving new orders. Decentralized ones, on the other hand, have from hundreds to many thousands of power centers, up to and including at the individual level, so that violently overcoming one results in merely upsetting all the others, who then rebel and fight back. Thus, the "revolution" (supposing this term is even valid in this context) must be done very slowly, below the pain threshold that'd cause a majority of the different power centers to rebel, letting their natural leaders die their natural deaths all the while the new generations grow already used to the slightly changed cultural landscape, and going through this cycle as many times as needed until generations down the line the end result is achieved.

      The problem with thinking this possible is that it'd require conspiracy-level dedication from generations of revolutionaries too, not to mention their goals would also change wildly over time. Very unlikely, to say the least. In any case, the core of the argument, that things can turn 180 if you let them go their way 1 at a time, remains valid even if there's no one actively directing it, as most probably there isn't. Give things the right push at the start and some kind of political inertia (the proverbial "I don't care, it isn't my problem") can very well keep them going just because.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  36. Alito is licking his chops by snsh · · Score: 1

    This guy never found a search he didn't like.

  37. why not have a like fun at their expense by ikeman32 · · Score: 1

    Ok 4th amendment issues aside, why not have a little fun at HLS expense? Cross the boarder with an electronic device that contains an encrypted file. Set the password to something really vulgar and insulting. Do what's ever is necessary to get searched and when they ask you for the password you give it to them. By the time those over paid halfwits figure it out and view the file you will either have a funny story for the papers or never be heard from again.

  38. No provision for borders by guspasho · · Score: 1

    It's about time something like this happened. The rights established in the Constitution are binding on the government, wherever you are and whoever you are. There is no provision for different rules at the border or outside the border, nor for citizens as opposed to non-citizens. Any attempt at limiting those rights is in violation of any clear reading of the Constitution, especially attempts to define the border as 100 miles wide, an area that encompasses several whole states and 2/3 of the country's population.