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France Demands Skype Register As a Telco
jfruh writes "Skype made a name for itself by largely bypassing the infrastucture — and the costs, and the regulations — of the legacy telecommunications industry. But now the French telecom regulator wants to change that, at least in France. At issue is not the service's VoIP offering, but rather the Skype Out service that allows users to dial phones on traditional networks. Regulators say that this service necessitates that Skype face the same regulations as other telecoms."
While France has many many funny laws and ideas, many of which I think are bogus. But on this one IMO they are right. If Skype connected directly at the user to a telephone then IMO it would be a different picture. However, SKYPE acts on behalf of the user and hence they are doing the same thing as a telco, albeit not a completely telco.
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Especially since Skype out is more expensive than my current voip provider, they have the money for it and interoperate with the POTS.
Tomorrow is another day...
And they are correct. You tie into the Telco, you need to play by the regulations for Telco.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Regulations designed to protect the incumbent status quo, rather than serving the needs of real users, is the kind of thing that has kept France out of the picture for innovation. France must import their innovation.
If Skype has VOIP-to-POTS gateways physically located in France, they need to follow France's legacy telecom rules. If the gateways are located elsewhere (e.g. in another EU country), France shouldn't have any standing to impose their regulations on them.
Rent seeking.
To expand: France has ran out of other people's money and people with money are leaving (75% income tax for high incomes? :) , so anything goes.
You can't handle the truth.
As I've said before...when a country tries to extort money from a company that company should threaten to cease operations within that country so call their bluff...if they are not bluffing then the company just ceases to operate.
France taxes the crap out of its citizens so we should have seen this coming.
It is about time that SKYPE and other VOIP vendor face the same regulations
Hey, that rhymes.
The whole point of the internet is the nodes are privately owned. Each node pays their taxes for local dial tone and the fact they are willing to pay the bill and some carriers have unlimited dial plans are NOT the business of F France.
Seriously.
JJ
MS not offering anymore "Skype Out" in France... Who's going to lose? Well, it's the worst kind of solution, in which everybody loses something and nobody wins (not even the French VoIP providers: the greatest majority of Skype-out calls happens just because the called is not online and the caller would like her/him to join a Skype-to-Skype session. A SMS - direct or via Twitter - would achieve pretty much the same thing).
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
OK, they brought us the Minitel. Er, thanks...
I've been here for more than 20 years, and have really enjoyed being financially fucked in the ass by the France Telecom monopoly, swiftly followed by the FT/SFR duopoly, and then Bouygues came along and, tada!, we had the same old...overpriced, underserviced.
Fortunately, after years off battling the well-captured 'regulators', Free has finally got things moving somewhat in the right direction.
My point? Skype buys its out calling service from these fine, regulated companies. It is not a telco in the traditional sense, so leave it alone.
Btw, not a Skype/MS shill, although I freely admit i have found it incredibly useful over the years, and it has saved me and my family a ton of money. Right now moving to Jitsi...it's getting there. (Waiting for Android and iOs clients, please)
What is the purpose of regulating telcos, and is that purpose still relevant to the proper operation of telcos and in providing fair and equal services to the citizens?
In many ways, the way governments rule over technology is as outdated as laws making it illegal for women to drive or people of mixed race to vote.
features of skype out have existed for years and skype itself is an old (relatively speaking.. 10 years in its industry is ancient) company --- based next door in luxemborgh... but france didn't seem to care at all when it was some random swedes running the show, or even when ebay owned it.... but now that it's part of microsoft..........
nothing in the article said france "forces" skype. They are reviewing if they should consider skype a telco
more garbage from soulskill
no wonder taco left.
The obvious course of action for Skype is, if the French government considers imposing regulations on Skype, to deny service to France. The French government is not powerful enough to put Skype in a disadvantageous position; all Skype has to do is pack up its bags and leave, and then France will be denied the revenue it was after and will also have to deal with a bunch of angry constituents.
France can always prevent call termination on France's POTs numbers.
in my fag database.
Regulations designed to protect the incumbent status quo, rather than serving the needs of real users, is the kind of thing that has kept USA out of the picture for telecommunications innovation. USA must import their telecommunications innovation.
The two claimed purposes are emergency calls and wire tapping. The first is quite difficult because unlike landlines or cell towers, it's genuinely not possible to know with certainty where the caller is, and so how do you route the emergency call to the 'nearest' location?
In the U.S. the FCC finally agreed that sending customer provided location info to the call center was adequate but prior to that, the incumbents did become more interested in public safety than they had ever been before or since. I don't know the exact situation in France.
As for the second, it's a bit difficult to do that when communications can happen peer to peer and Skype doesn't own or control the routers in between. Just exactly what is Skype supposed to do about that?
This is pretty much how it went down all over western Europe (Italy, I'm lookin' at you) when cell phones did an end-run against heavily regulated landlines. Sure, you could wait 6 months for phone service ... or you can have this!
Now it's euros, not time, but the song's more-or-less the same.
Tax grab, plain and simple.
The geese left in disgust.
It's France: the geese didn't leave they were eaten.
And also the socialist minded society that lives there. An excerpt from a new story recently:
------
PARIS - The head of US tyremaker Titan has mocked French workers for putting in only "three hours" a day and said his company would be "stupid" to take over a troubled French factory.
The letter from Titan CEO Maurice Taylor to French Industrial Renewal Minister Arnaud Montebourg was in response to a request for Titan to consider investing in a loss-making Goodyear plant in Amiens, northern France.
"I have visited that factory a couple of times. The French workforce gets paid high wages but only works three hours," Taylor said in the letter, dated February 8 and obtained by French business daily Les Echos.
"They get one hour for breaks and lunch, talk for three and work for three. I told this to the French union workers to their faces. They told me that's the French way!"
Goodyear said last month it was set to close the plant, which employs 1,173 workers, following five years of failed talks with unions.
Yet, strangely, people aren't dying in the streets from starvation and lack of tyres in France. If the "socialist minded French way" means a reasonably functional country, with happy people enjoying a decently high standard of living while working 3-hour days, why the f*** would I take advice from someone who lives in a country where typical workers grind through 40-hour workweeks (if they are lucky not to need 80 at minimum wage) and still have sucky lives?
Reading the vast majority of comments left me wondering how many of you actually use Skype. I find the service helpful and easy to use. My wife who is not computer savvy usees it to communicate with me when I am away from home. The sound is great at times and when I am away from home offers me the best audio and video quality. The times when I use Skype out is when my wife is not there or I have to contact a buisness with an 800 number. So if Skype is going to be regulated do you really think it will stop there. All these people that use the other VOIP services are next. It is no different than Skype Out. So even though you may not like Skype for whatever reason you need to see that your freedom is under attack. You need to fight with the same goals as you would fight for your VOIP provider. You need to stand side-by-side with your fellow brothers and sisters and tell them that your VOIP service is not a teleco. Because in the end it is the consumer that always pays.
Skype would have indeed to pay some taxes depending on their turnover, but that's not gonna change the face of the world (it's capped at 80'000€).
IMHO the real deal is that telco have legal obligations, among other things related to police investigation.
The police is supposed to be able to identify the owner of a particular number, get the bills and a log of the calls.
Skype can provide its customers with a french phone number so it should comply with that regulation.
And also the socialist minded society that lives there. An excerpt from a news story recently:
And here is a nice example of confirmation bias. There is a socialist attitude in France and here is another story that proves it.
Of course, few mention the neighboring Dunlop plant also owned by Goodyear, which Goodyear is investing in and which doesn't have the labor problems of the first plant. That would work against the point that most people seem to try to be making when they cover this story.
The thing is that the union rep has a valid criticism of the way the capitalism is practiced these days. "[The CEO who made the comments] has no scruples. He made a fortune, has private jets and yachts and yet he wants to produce his tires in China at one euro an hour. ... Maybe soon he'll be able to get his tires made for 30 cents an hour by children in Bangladesh."
More and more of the world's wealth is being concentrated in a smaller and smaller number of people. Entrepreneurs had better get that under control before they squeeze all of their consumers out of the market or, worse, give the masses nothing to lose if they start a revolution.
But, getting back on topic, if Skype is operating as a telco in France, why is it such a big deal if they are regulated as a telco in France?
I'm no expert on the ins and outs of IP assignment, but with dynamic assignment of IPs, it seems to me that even giving a billing address is extremely problematic. In Australia, the IP address could be owned by Telstra, dynamically assigned to your iphone, would could be anywhere in the country. Perhaps days and weeks after the fact you could look at logs and find out some better information, but I would have thought that in real time, IP address tells you precisely zero.
In other words, they're too inefficient and can't handle the competition, so they make up a stupid excuse that the right wing loonies at home will eat up.
In case you hadn't noticed, one of Europe's biggest tire makers has obviously no problems with French labour culture, so it is fairly obvious that it is Titan that has a problem, not France.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
French telecommunication regulator is right to try to impose operator burdends on Skype.
1/ More and more people are adopting this service a primary phone service because of SkypeIn and SkypeOut feature. This means that there will be more and more case where user will need to make emergency calls. This lack of emergency call support is a shame. So the post above is ... very shortsighted. One day you may need it yourseff.
2/ VOIP Technology / Skype are more and more displacing regular phones. They play the same role so they need somehow to be regulated in the same manner. There is in France a declarative licence for small telcos, the so called "L33-1". I know a couple of medium sized company operating VoIP service that applied to this without any problem. So it is not like it is unbearable for companies like Microsoft.
3/ I am so amazed by comment like: Skype should cut skype in/out, or avoid physical presence in France (replace by country xxx if you want) to avoid any form of regulation.
Damn ! these regulations are non discriminatory and made for the common good. Its like on the road, if you have no rules, you end up with a dysfunctional traffic. I see in all these comment some kind of selfish, short sighted spirit, 'I want the lowest cost regardless the consequences" that is a worrying trend.
Just because someone sees the work "governement", "regulation" they jump to the roof, say its bad, andy freedom and they try to avoid it without even pondering the consequences or the actual need for regulation. I see this ultimately as some kind of subtul selfishness.
As much as I agree that freedom and freedom to innovate should be preserved and fostered, it should not be a the cost of forgetting the notion of common good.
What's France's unemployment rate vs USA? Assuming you try to measure both in the same way...
Google says 10% vs 7.7% but the measurements might be different.
Secondly is being unemployed and poor in France better or worse than in the USA?
Mmmmmm Foie Gras.
Given the social safety nets in France, it is pretty much impossible to argue that it ISN'T better to be unemployed and poor in France than in the USA. Between their form of social security, employment insurance, and universal health care you're a lot safer from lifetime crippling circumstances.
Hell, Frances health care gets rated above Canada and the UK sometimes, which are usually the examples of successful pinko commie consideration for fellow humans.
You are all completely missing the argument.
The France government is desperate for cash, and will milk any cow out there.
It's not about regulations, fair-use, bla bla.
They need money, and they have people working on it. Simple as that.
We are all discussing an argument that doesn't exist. It's always about the money. Especially with the governments nowadays.
France Register As a Country.
Seriously, Russian government abandoned a similar idea after this video - "Hitler and Skype" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxhs8jMnC7w , which was watched at Youtube millions of times.
Hitler speaks in Russian, which just made sound as German language. The funny part is that Hitler uses a lot of F-words regarding proposed ban on Skype, but the caption translates it into correct cultured Russian language.
Tax the rich at 75%
This is my first TEST if slashdotters understand math!
Your harvest is four apples, you give me three, keep one.
This skype crap is the same thing, they NEED TO STEAL MORE MONEY to keep up the MALI adventures. (Gonna steal that 50B gold too muthafukas)
This has nothing to do with regulating power and frequency, or communications. It has everything to do with politicians pretending exponents don't exist on their Debt to GDP.
My best guess is that France will soon find itself an Internet back-water since no online entity will want to do business there.
I have switched to google voice for my home phone (using an Obi 110) here in the US. It doesn't provide e911, but I am paying $12/year to an e911 provider. So I have phone service for $12/year, the emergency call service is getting subsidized by me (not to mention that I'm also paying for it through my mobile bill), and I don't see any need for more regulations.
If you want the full price, full service phone company, fine. I don't, and I would rather get rid of my home phone than go back to it. Luckily, I don't have to.
As much as I agree that freedom and freedom to innovate should be preserved and fostered, it should not be a the cost of forgetting the notion of common good.
As a person paying $1.50/month for 911 service through my VOIP provider, I guess my main hangup is personal responsibility. I think it's great when the government steps in to correct chaos for the common good: regulate telephone poles and utilities, roads, the airwaves and other common property. I'm not as into "do this, it's for your own good". If some jackass wants to save a few pennies by skimping on 911 service, let 'em. The only reason I will acquiesce and admit that it's probably a good idea is that jackasses have children. Hell, my kid might even be playing at the jackass's house and might need help.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Time to be regulated like a duck.
There's always someone with this silly logic on Slashdot! The world doesn't revolve around the company in question, it's the other way around!
Each time Microsoft or Google have been involved in some sort of legal issue in Europe - some guy like you pops up to tell them to "just" leave Europe. The problem is that Europe represents more than 50% of the profits for companies like Microsoft! Who loses then? That would be Skype, because there will always be the competition.
I imagine Skype does even better in Europe than in the US, due to the fact that there are more people in general (700 million) - and because people call across national borders and not state lines. Never mind the millions of immigrants from Africa to Asia.
Talking with people from there, I'm led to believe Canada's healthcare is not much better than America's. I rather like New Zealand's, until our government sells out our healthcare system to the USA in the TPPA.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".