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Will Donglegate Affect Your Decision To Attend PyCon?
theodp writes "Its Code of Conduct describes PyCon as 'a welcoming, friendly event for all.' But will the post-conference fallout from this year's 'Donglegate' debacle and proposed remedies affect your decision — one way or the other — to attend next year's PyCon in ironically naughty Montreal? And even if not, could 'Donglegate' influence the-powers-that-be whose approval you'll need to attend? How about conference sponsors?"
is Donglegate?
Will you idiots stop with this "topic-gate" crap already? A feminist didn't like the jokes that a couple of guys were making. They got fired. Then she got fired for rocking the boar. Case closed.
"Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
It will also put me off talking freely and in an unguarded manner in front of female attendees at any conference. Who knows which one will want to be the next twitterverse celeb getting notoriety by making a big thing out of nothing. That victimhood addict who reported those 2 guys for "inappropriate" comments went on to make very inappropriate comments herself about those guys (search for her TSA socks stuffing comments).
She is a hypocrite troublemaker who is creating divisions in the dev community along gender lines for no good reason only her own need to validate herself out of victimhood. Next time a woman mentions at work how far along she in in her pregnancy, can she be reported for inappropriate comments?Because this is where this is all going.
Pycon put out a statement that it was regrettable somebody was oversensitive and overreacted to something mildly offensive.
That under these particular circumstances it might have been best if the offended party had expressed the fact that she was offended directly to those offending her (as they were not the least bit threatening) or perhaps escalated it to Pycon security.
That Adria Richards was banned from all future events for violating Pycon privacy policies and making a hostile environment for all attendees, and the developers banned for a year for their part.
Imagine a world where Pycon did that, and stated that there would be no changes in policy as a result of the 'donglegate' effect, because no Pycon policy was an issue in the events as they unfolded.
"Rocking the boar" sounds more interesting than any other part of this story.
At least part of the reason I go to Pycon is for recruiting; that means that I wear a company-branded t-shirt, and -- obviously -- my name tag has my company's name on it. I expect that I should always behave in a way that is consistent with representing my company well, and part of that means keeping my conduct strictly professional.
I don't see anything here that makes Pycon less useful, or interesting, or relevant to me, nor do I see any action on the part of the Pycon folks that I disagree with. And, having just talked with my management last night about Donglegate, I know they feel the same.
Now, Pycon being in Montreal is a different matter -- I don't really want to cross borders for Pycon.
Calling someone something they don't like, to their face and particularly with malicious intent, might be inappropriate but it is not harassment per se. Doing so after being asked to stop (refusing to stop if there is no malicious intent does not constitute malice) probably is harassment.
A joke that somebody doesn't like, particularly if it's not told *to* them, shouldn't be considered harassment and we should be wary of attempts to ban salty jokes.
For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
My decision, made many years ago, to remain a reclusive hermit who shuns contact with other human beings and only leaves his domicile to work and fetch food, is clearly shown to be correct by incidents such as this one. (It has, however, had the sad effect of making me communicate almost entirely in run-on sentences on internet web boards.)
In as much as I view it as a self indulgent echo chamber where converts congratulate themselves on choosing the one true religion.
Python is just one tool in the box - sorry, one implement in the storage vessel. All single-language conference attendees really need to get over themselves.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
No. She got fired because of employee misconduct. She tried to make this poor family man feel ashamed about having a penis. She literally took food off the table of 3 children. All because she faux outraged that "dongle" sounds like "dong" and "fork" sounds like "fuck".
I'm so fucking glad she got fired. I hope she gets fired from life. People and their fake outrage can die in a fire, or a Walmart trampling.
I might have been interested in attending PyCon to learn more about Python and to network, but rather than being "offended at sexist remarks", I take the B&B comments as indication of the caliber of people I might have met at a PyCon. It may not be true, but that's the perception I have now, and I'm now more likely to attend data analytics or HPC conferences where Python happens to be discussed.
I don't know, I found the title funny -- which was probably the editor's intention in the first place. And she wasn't a feminist, that word has a real meaning that I'd rather we didn't dilute; she was a prissy, attention whoring, holier-than-thou, PC bitch.
And to answer the article's question: If I were a Python dev, I wouldn't attend. That would send a more clear message to everyone involved that those situations are ridiculous than a bunch of posts on random message boards.
It's a significant and relevant story.
We know about race hustlers... people who like to twist any situation into a racist (against blacks) for their fame and profit. It's old news.
But we don't hear much about the more quiet problem... especially in the work place. The one quite a few of us in this demographic have suffered.
There are women out there who are equally prepared to play the sexism-card when it serves their interests. In this case, this woman is a pretty good example. People have been digging up her internet content everywhere exposing what she is and does. On one hand she has a clear history of sex related things. If she was so offended by sex related things, she has a weird way of showing it. So it wasn't the sex related things that bothered her. I have little doubt that she was harmed or offended by what she thought she heard.
She may have been annoyed by the cut-ups going on behind her. That's understandable. But instead of addressing the real problem, she made up a worse one. She created this drama. She got what she expected... at first. But then the community unexpectedly returned fire. Her employer couldn't afford to have her any longer. B'Bye bitch.
This is the unspoken reason there may be reservations about women in the workplace and especially in the tech fields. We're a BUNCH of immature geeks who care less about social crap and more about technical crap. When women enter the room, we're immediately terrified that our haven is being changed leaving us nowhere to go. The unspoken fear is that we know what women can and will bring. She is a perfect example of it. Once again, her self-documented history of sexy-flirty crap spins around in an instant to "I'm offended by this double entendre!!" And of course, everyone who seeks not to be branded "a part of the problem" is forced into doing whatever pleases her.
Nice play. For once it didn't work out quite as she expected. I wonder what she will advocate next? This geek crowd she offended? They are anonymous. They don't forget. They don't forgive. And she represents every woman in the workplace who has ever played that game. And I sincerely hope her hell will give other women cause to give a second thought about playing the sexism card like this.
Le sigh.
"One of these men lost his job as a result of this incident, and we are seeing numerous people blame Adria for that. This is a clear example of a culture we live in, where it is more appropriate to blame the victim than to blame any other offenders."
What the everliving fuck?
She wasn't a "victim" of anything. These guys didn't rape her. They didn't assault her. They didn't slander her, they didn't harass her they didn't DO anything to her. They told a joke meant for each other and happened to be within earshot of her. That was the reason she got fired. She's claiming to be some sort of victim and framing all women as victims of "this sort of behavior" and its just bullshit. You do not have a right to not be offended. As long as that person isn't directly talking about you, thats where your rights end.
Now if they had said "I bet this chick in front of us here would love it if the presenters had bigger dongles" or something of that nature, she'd have a bit of a case here as that could very easily be considered harassment.
And she wasn't a feminist
The term you're looking for is "feminazi"
is put a chilling effect on developer conferences in general, and put pressure on conference staff to create policies that shouldn't even be necessary.
Talk freely and openly? Not anymore. Oh no! Someone said compile and link in the same sentence! I'm offended! As a female myself, now I have to worry that if I walk up to another developer, their first thought will be, "Oh shit, it's a woman. Gotta scoot!"
Do you have a smart phone? Sorry, you're not allowed to use it anymore because you might be taking photos of other people to post on your twitfaceplus feed in order to disrupt their lives.
This whole thing is a big pile of idiocy, and mindbogglingly poorly handled on ALL sides.
Nice play. For once it didn't work out quite as she expected
Actually I think she knew exactly what would happen, the same thing as always, people rape threatning her and calling her all kind of things. Amanda Blum's excelent blog post highlights the problem with Adrias behaviour but hopefully give you some insight to the larger problem.
If this has thought us something it is that there are some serious problem with sexism at tech conferences, even if you don't like what she did the backlash kind of proved her point IMHO.
The first group of people is not offended by jokes, including jokes influenced by sexuality.
The second group of people is offended by jokes, especially jokes influenced by sexuality. A subset of this group is offended by such jokes when spoken by members of a certain gender. Of course, this is discriminatory so we will ignore that aspect and categorize them as offended in general.
I think there is a desire to be respectful of the second group while avoiding strict censorship of the [majority] first group.
I suggest a clearly visible sign that someone is offended by jokes influenced by sexuality (or, perhaps broadening this to include all jokes?). Perhaps a yellow hat or something like that. People within earshot of such people should refrain from telling such jokes. People wearing the sensitivity marker who hear things offensive to them can raise the issue to convention staff who will attempt to deal with the issue. People wearing the "sensitivity" marker who make such jokes will permanently lose the right to wear them.
People not wearing the sensitivity marker who hear something offensive to them should either (A) indicate to the offensive person directly that their conduct is perhaps inappropriate, or (B) move away from the offensive person so that they are no longer offended. If (A) is ineffective and (B) is ineffective or impossible the convention staff can be notified and they may or may not choose to act; anyone not wearing a sensitivity marker who is upset is free to go put on a sensitivity marker.
People may wish to have activities which may include things that people find offensive, they are free to ban sensitivity markers. Additionally, "sensitivity-marker free zones" or "automatic sensitivity marker" zones could be created. Or even entire conventions where no sensitivity markers are allowed -- one would expect a crude joke convention to probably not cater to overly sensitive people.
Of course, in an ideal world, everyone would be adult enough to know to watch their language a little bit, and to not overreact a lot. But given that certain people are especially sensitive for various reasons, we should find a way to allow them to coexist with the rest of society.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Someone is trying desperately to make this into something bigger than it is.
Absolutely this. Those guys told a tame (even boring) joke in the wrong place, she immediately went nutso-nuclear. One of the guys lost his job and so did she.
Case closed.
Aside from those two, there's no good reason anyone should avoid PyCon, and we all know it. If you can act like a normal adult, it's unlikely you'll have any problems with anyone.
I predict a resurgence in traditional men's clubs.
s/Submit/Preview/;
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
We are all at risk here. Even though we have freedom of speech, we run the risk of losing our livelihoods if we say something that might offend someone somewhere. Richards was being a real "bitch." I say "bitch" because it is a disparaging name for a female. Not because I wish to be sexist. If the perpetrator of this nonsense was a guy, I'd call him a real "bastard." Calling a woman a "bastard" doesn't seem to be the correct usage in the English language. If someone can come up with a disparaging name to call a female that is not sexist, please suggest one, but if it is not sexists to call a guy a bastard, I refuse to accept that there is no non-sexist name we can call a woman when we are condemning her and her actions, but I digress.
Seriously, I've been in the situation where I have been pulled aside by management for saying something offensive, but they won't say what, to someone, but they won't say who, and that I should stop it, but they don't say how. The whole harassment mentality is very kafka-esque. The REAL hostile work environment is created by zero-tolerance crap, which, by definition, means "intolerant."
Human beings are imperfect. "Appropriate" behavior is a myth of the modern workplace police. Human beings build relationships and we communicate. We are not robots. Humor is part of humanity, and sometimes humor is off color. There is a difference between saying, "Hey, my dongle is bigger than yours" and "Have sex with me or your fired."
Also, lets be honest here, if ms Richard heard these jokes from her friends at that conference, she would not have complained. She should try to understand and take to heart Voltaire's quote: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." An evangelist should stand for something besides her own notoriety. Gatherings of human beings are generally improved when we all try to be tolerant of one another.
Certainly not if my job can be put at risk because some attention-seeker decides to be offended by an innocent remark I make in a private conversation that they happen to overhear.
I don't care if you're offended. There's a bunch of stuff that offends me but you don't hear me whining on about it, because I'm a grown-up and I have learned that other people think differently from me.
Then she got fired for rocking the boar.
Dude, what the hell goes on at PyCon?!
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I'm not sure what the "naughty Montreal" comment is about; Montreal is an ideal location to get over this episode. Women in general, and women in industry in particular, are treated fairly and equitably. While there aren't 50% female developers, the numbers are higher than I've seen elsewhere in North America.
I just hope conference attendees are ready for 51% of the sessions to be held in French, and all printed materials being predominantly in French, as required by law.
Too many people overreacted on this one. You did too. Congratulations.
Wait a minute. Because he said that they *can* die in a fire, not that they *should* die in a fire, maybe he is just saying that they are not superheroes, which is a valid piece of information that should be welcome in any serious discussion.
lucm, indeed.
>This is the unspoken reason there may be reservations about women in the workplace and especially in the tech fields.
>We're a BUNCH of immature geeks who care less about social crap and more
>about technical crap. When women enter the room, we're immediately terrified
>that our haven is being changed leaving us nowhere to go. The unspoken fear
>is that we know what women can and will bring.
Dude, you're saying is that you are a loser with no social skills. But that that's OK because there are plenty of others just like you and you'll all engage in this bullying of women who venture into a tech field without knowing their proper place, which is to be quiet and submissive, ignore the bad behavior and don't try to advance in your career.
"Loser with no social skills"? Insulting, but true.
"But that that's OK because there are plenty of others just like you " Yup. Everyone has their niche.
"and you'll all engage in this bullying of women" How the hell do you get from "We're a BUNCH of immature geeks who care less about social crap and more about technical crap" to "we like to bully women"???? Talk about a strawman.
"women who venture into a tech field without knowing their proper place, which is to be quiet and submissive, ignore the bad behavior and don't try to advance in your career" No one said any of that. Strawman again.
Informative link.
"Money Shot" does not mean porn. Yes. Porn made the term famous, but the meaning isn't quite "semen being ejected." It's "this is what people came here to see!" Steve Jobs holding up a new iThing was "the money shot."
The woman has a serious problem in that she makes her problem a problem for everyone else.
Very enlightening.
She was not going to be re-trained. And the blogger demonstrated that she has a history of choosing the stir up trouble rather than trying to work things out. Clearly the company that fired her made the right choice.
I'm rather surprised she even attended PyCon. After all, pythons and snakes in general are often used to describe penises.
No. The problem is that people like you cannot distinguish between sexism and dirtbaggery. The developers were crude, not sexist. Adria was a dirtbag, not a sexist. Sexism is wrong. Being crude in a professional setting is wrong. Being a dirtbag is wrong. Killing is wrong. Stealling is wrong. Just don't pretend that these are the same thing. The backlash simply proves that you have dirtbags wherever you have people. Not new news. Sexism may exist in tech conferences, but the backlash was not an example of it. Trying to say that it is, is a perfect example of why people are so outraged: because the pendulum has swung too far, and the term "sexism" is starting to look like an absurd and meaningless term. Nice try.
To be fair the Joker may have been belligerent and annoying. I don't like it when people talk during lectures either. It makes it hard to pay attention. To make it worse they were telling off-color, extra-annoying jokes. There's nothing necessarily sexist or anti-woman about making a dongle joke, but it certainly can make women (or men) feel uncomfortable. It very well may create less friendly environment to some women. That being said, the photograph/tweet response was not terribly appropriate. Neither is she to blame for the consequent firing of photographed employees (except maybe getting herself fired)
Her response could have been to turn around and nicely (or angrily) ask them to be quiet or leave. I don't agree with her approach to solving the problem, but I do not think it is her fault that one of the guys got fired. Perhaps he was otherwise incompetent or was always making stupid jokes that pissed everyone off? Perhaps the guys employer overreacted badly to this incident and then that is really unfortunate. In which case I guess she would share some of the blame with the employer.
So hopefully a good python dev can get a new job. I'm not sure what a technology evangelist does, but I hope she uses better judgement at dealing with similar situations in the future. This sucks. Whenever I go to a tech conference, I get very excited and inpsired by all the good work being done by other people. I will continue to attend conferences for sure and hope they can be a welcoming place for everyone.... even n00bs.
They told a joke
...almost certainly equivalent to one she clearly has no problems with.
Interesting Twitter feed, as it were, full of sexism and racism.
But of course, it doesn't count - because she's black and female. And joking, clearly, oh, certainly.
An 8 year girl just gave up on becoming a programmer, because of you.
I used to be
In reality - she wanted it both ways. She leveraged the Internet mob (her twitter followers) on the two guys that "offended" her.
Yet, we know the Internet mob is a fickle beast. She got the reaction she wanted - but - it also lashed back at her. They brutally attacked her.
Which, who knows, that could have been part of the scheme all along. She knew the Internet kids would strike back with real sexism and real attacks - validating the "hatred against women" she wants to perpetuate.
Live by the mob, die by the mob.
The whole thing is worrying.
I am a male lead programmer in China, I hire a lot of female programmers and extol the virtues of hiring female programmers to my Chinese peers who lead other projects, who have started hiring female programmers also, seeing my success in using female programmers to achieve good results. I think they are more consistent and reliable, about 10-30% cheaper then men and have better company loyalty than men. There is a surprising amount of coding that could do with a woman's touch. I like to have over 30% of my team to be women since in my experience if a woman has done something before, she's much less likely to make a mess of it than a man is, since men of above average IQ tend to get bored, lazy and arrogant the second time around. Women also don't like being assigned repetitive work, but even if they get angry with me, they generally still don't screw it up, though they will quit eventually if one exploits this too much.
My little sister and cousin are both female programmers in Australia. They are both excellent, consistent and make very few mistakes, my cousin even has some of the problem solving creativity that the women I've managed seem to lack and I'm optimistic about my sister developing that skill too with time. This high profile firing stuff makes me somewhat concerned for the careers of these two dear young ladies.
The thing is, in China, sexism is a non-issue, by which I mean, it exists in a huge way, but nobody talks about it. In the west, it's a big issue with big consequences, so I realised, if a manager was considering hiring a woman in Australia into an all male team, they would quite likely first measure up the probability and possible severity of a sexual harassment issue and offset that against her utility as an employee. For large companies who have various HR policies supporting diversity and for whom maintaining a completely male workforce would be utterly impractical anyway, this is a non issue, the risk is lower and the reward is higher. For smaller, up-coming companies with higher potential for growth but larger exposure to risk, this is going to really going to work against female candidates. This is somewhat irrelevant anyway, because these two young ladies both work for absolutely enormous multinationals, but for others, or in the future, who knows.
I completely agree that inappropriate behaviour in the workplace is bad and should be stopped. But for a manager, being forced to fire potentially crucial people for something unrelated to performance is extremely scary. If a manager looks at a candidate and has any niggling doubt that "HR has a remote chance of making me fire some people I need if I hire this person and something goes wrong" then it really doesn't help the candidate. I really do not think this helps women in the industry.
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
And by the way, codes of conduct are essentially useless. Attendees either behave in a socially acceptable way or they got booted. And the convention orgranizers get to decide what is socially acceptable.
Codes of conduct inform attendees of what the convention organizers probably will decide is socially acceptable.
There's a difference be having a lot of support among women (what I said) and having at least some support from women (what you said).
Andrea Dworkin made her comments about sex in marriage being rape in the eighties, I'm pretty sure. It was highly controversial in the feminist community at the time, though, yeah, it had a few supporters. But it got airtime there because so many people didn't agree with her. (And, of course, what she was saying was much more nuanced than the short quote that is generally cited.) And you still have men now pulling it out as being representative of feminists all this time later. These days I only hear her brought up in feminist contexts in a historical context. She's just not that relevant. (I mean, really. Andrea Dworking for crying out loud.)
She's being brought up not because she has support from feminists, but because men like to bring her up to make feminists look bad. And in my experience, that's a fairly common tactic - look at all the invocations of feminazis and the like here, and all the "that's just what feminists are like!" comments. (And, for that matter, the nasty comments about women generally. And how people who have made civil and reasonable comments in support of women have been modded down as flamebait.)
Perfect answer. She is the poison for events and employers and other women who actually want to make an honest living in the world.
Women have had this amazing free pass on their behavior for so long. I know women who are absolutely ashamed on behalf of these other women. We're afraid to complain about "these people." //What do you mean "these people"?!// You know what I mean and quit pretending to be semi-offended asking me to say something you can use against me.
What they should be asking is whether anyone will ever live in the state of California (where this most notorious of conferences happened) again. One can't be human and live in such a state. It would warp the body and destroy the very soul to try.
So I imagine there are tens of millions of refugees trying to get into neighboring states like Arizona, Nevada, or Mexico. I say we welcome them with open arms and help heal these terrible things that have happened to them.
Why do pretty girls dress up as comic book characters and go to comic con? Because they are paid to.
Her job is to make a good impression for her employers with geeks, she doesn't need to be a programmer to do that.
She was there because that is where she could rub shoulders with exactly the sort of person her job needs her to make contact with... you know, the sort of person she got fired.
These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
You're deeply concerned about the careers of women, who you like to hire... because you can pay them less for doing more reliable quality work.
What a moving tribute to China's acceptance of the modern Western Capitalist workplace values.
It was one minor incident in a conference full of win. I didn't even hear about it until the conference was over. 20% of the 2500 attendees were women. There were people from 41 countries. There were quite a few young programmers in attendance as well because of the education track. PyCon and the Python community has made great strides in outreach. In attendance, there were for organizations for women in tech: Pyladies, LadyCoders, Women Who Code, and CodeChix.
Here's the best take I've read on what happened and what should have happened:
Adria Richards, PyCon, and How We All Lost http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
Everyone involved could have handled the situation better. I'm annoyed that this one incident, important for those directly involved, got blown way out of proportion and has shit on all the great things that PyCon achieved this year. Adria Richards does not deserve the abuse she's received even if she handled the situation wrong.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Bazinga!
I'm offended that my sex has been characterized as "bored, lazy and arrogant"!!!!
Her intentions are very suspect to begin with. There has been lots of speculation that career goals were her motive. Not to mention, she (apparently) has no remorse over getting a person (in this case a male) fired for her very unsubstantiated claims of "abuse".
Either she is a neo-feminist who has it out for males, or is just totally unaware of how society (and the real-world work). In the real world, sometimes people's feelings do get hurt. Launching a witch hunt against 1/2 the population because her feelings were hurt was not the proper way to deal with it.
I'm sure I'll be modded down as a male chauvinist pig for this post. So be it. The reality of life is, you can't have someone there to watch over every social interaction you have. Sometimes you need to stand up for yourself (man or woman) and just tell the other person to fuck off.
So it's okay for her to make these jokes but a guy can't say "big dongles"? She's a hypocrite who was purposefully making a scene for attention.
It's not diluting feminism.. it's exposing it for what it has always been: bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives.
When feminists were asking for the right to vote, was that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
When feminists were asking for the right to medical treatment without requiring spousal consent, was that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
When feminists were (and still are) asking for the right to wage parity, was (is) that "bullshit, victimology and letting women use their massive societal privilege to ruin innocent men's lives"?
There is a hardcore of militants that are often refered to as "feminazis", but they are not the mainstream of feminism -- far from it. Feminism is about stopping us guys using our massive societal privilege to ruin women's lives. Me, I want a wife that is my equal, not some subjugated slave.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
All the accounts I've read indicate that this was a problem between two or three individuals, and that PyCon handled the complaint they received professionally, reasonably, and quickly. Why would it affect anyone's decision to attend a future PyCon?
I would downvote the question if I could, as it seems to be about as useful as a "first post" comment. I wonder if the submitter just wanted to see himself published on slashdot.
You are revealing that your world view includes a large group of men who make collective decisions and carry them through like an organized men's political interest group - for example influencing or planting reporters to focus on such stories and then use the stories to undermine feminism. Such a group doesn't exist. That your worldview includes such a group anyway shows a clear us-versus-those-pigs mentality that is more likely the true reason that men are disregarding your views. I just followed your lead in psychologizing about people I don't know.
Strawman. You're ignoring the concept of "emergent behaviour". Several agents acting independently of each other can act the same way, establishing a pattern of behaviour. That behaviour starts to become the engrained norm. People do it without thinking about it. For many people, it is an automatic reaction to make the same oppositions that they see all the time on the news, on the internet or from their friends, and one of the automatic responses to feminism is a strawman. While some extreme feminists do indeed harp on about patriarchal society as though it's a conspiracy, the leading thinkers acknowledge it as a mindset, and they're looking to change that mindset.
Consider also that there wasn't any great conspiracy to treat black people as lesser human beings -- our ancestors just happened to be very, very racist and actually believed that the colour of your skin dictated your value as a human being. It took conscious and concerted effort to change that mindset, and it has taken and will take more conscious and concerted effort to give women truly equal rights to men.
Including a conscious and concerted effort not to overcompensate in certain areas given rise to claims of overprivilege.
Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
So you hire more women cause you pay them less salary for the same work?
If a man and women are doing the same job at the same skill level (and by your own admission the woman does it better) and you are paying the women less only because of her genitals then you meet the very definition of sexism.
I hope she gets fired from life.
I really wanted to keep out of this shitstorm, but seriously mods ... how the hell can you call crap like that 'Insightful'?
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
I am close to giving up on Slashdot
Fair enough since I already gave up on women. :)
Honestly, they're just too much of a problem now.
Look at the marriage stats.
Really, who do you think is making the decision to not marry anymore?
Women?
hahahaha.
This isn't a PyCon problem at all. By all accounts, the staff and management of PyCon did everything correctly and by the book. It was an *attendee* problem.
Should the jokes have been made? No. Should someone have said something? Yes. Should PyCon staff have been alerted? Should a picture have been taken, published to the public internet? No. Should anyone have been fired? No. Should this have been handled privately? Yes.
I'd never heard of any of the parties involved until 2-3 days ago. But I agree that we all lost. And if the reported interactions in there are true (and, honestly, I can't see why someone would fabricate that when it's so easily verifiable), then the first party seems to have a history of *not* dealing with things with the people in question, but instead screaming to the rest of the world to incite massive action. It just seems to have eventually backfired this time.
Frankly, I don't care either way. I don't think the word "dongle" was ever even uttered in my workplace until this week. Forking was, but that's what happens with developers and public repos. If I were a Python developer, I'd consider going to PyCon. Just like if I were an active Ruby developer, I'd consider RubyCon despite similar issues in the past. I think I recall a PHP one, too. It's not the con, the organizers, or the sponsors who are to be blamed for these things, especially when they have publish codes of conduct.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
Then don't be afraid. Try not to insult anyone, but if you do, simply point out you didn't mean offence and move on.
Fellow Slashdotters we have to stop cringing for our values ("beta" behaviour) and be proud of what we believe in ("alpha" behaviour). If you believe in something then stand up for it. I believe in Enlightenment values; I believe in the values of the US Constitution (and I am not even a US citizen); I believe that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself from jihadis whose stated goal is genocide; I believe in small government and economic prudence (if your tax revenue can't afford it, don't fsking keep borrowing for *optional* social programmes); I believe in nations working together in mutal defence; I believe that there is no substitute for victory, of you start a war you do *everything* in your power to win; I believe that Scientific Method gives Truth and religions once served a purpose but no longer do; I believe that Enlightenment values are superior to Islamic Sharia; I believe that the collective good should not override personal freedom; I believe nuclear weapons serve a purpose (deterrence of rational actors); I believe in working hard so that I have a surplus for others; I believe racism is wrong - although criticism of cultural characteristics is a Free Speech right; I believe political correctness and the political ideology called Islam are the enemy of liberty and free men; I believe in self-pride in backing yourself, but not to the point of arrogance or closed-mindedness;
In the modern progressive man they would not promote those views because they would be afraid of being criticised. I am not afraid of being criticised. No matter what point of view you take someone will dispute it and may even (childishly) not like you as a result. That's ok. I may be wrong, and if I do I accept the new data and change my mind (that's the Scientific Method in action).
Because of these views I live for my fellow man and please myself. Be confident Slashdotters! Stop apologising for who you are or the values you hold. Let no one tell you what you can or can't say (although always use personal discretion - don't be a jerk, k?); not your Government, not your employeer, not your wife, and certainly not some ill-informed muppet with an axe to grind (as Richard's was).
I hope that helps some folks out there. The fatal weakness of the current US President is he is trying to be liked and wants the US to be liked. So he apologises to enemies and betrays allies (eg. missile shield sell out etc.). He, and every US President should stand up for the values of liberty and justice for all - and make it clear that the US will always back those who seek the same values. Instead we get simpering where the US backs down all the time and even opposes Free Speech (eg. Hillary Clinton's utterly immoral co-sponsoring of anti-Free Speech UN HRC Resolution 16/18) and doesn't even rescue US citizens under fire from Al Qaeda for *eight hours* despite having aircraft based nearby (eg. the shame of Benghazi). Stand up for what the Enlightened World believes in! Do not vote for a politician of any party anywhere until they sound like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgxlp2UJI5I
Once upon a time the West felt it could do achieve any goal - at it nearly could. We have lost our mojo because we keep listening to the "beta" message: be nice, make everyoine like you, get along. Well, we can and should still do that - but let's set our horizons a little bigger. Per Ardua Ad Astra.
The GP is wrong of course - feminism started with admirable goals, and had a lot of really great successes. I'm male, and I'm completely convinced that feminism changed our society for the better. I wouldn't want to go back to the 1860s, or the 1960s.
Modern feminism seems to have a problem though. It's achieved most of its laudable goals, and the rest look like they'll be achieved very soon. Overall wage parity hasn't been achieved but wages are essentially equal for those entering the workforce now. Women look likely to be much more successful than men in the not too distant future. Women earn more degrees and the differential is increasing in their favour.
The problem with modern feminism is that it's a rebellion that has achieved it's goals. But as a large political movement it can't just disband. Dedicated feminists have to find sexism to fight, even if they have to exaggerate problems, pervert the definition of sexism, or even manufacture it themselves.
And finally we have the argument for Google Glass.
Slashdot quote at the bottom of this discussion as I type this:
"I'll show you MY telex number if you show me YOURS ..."
Better not say that at the next conference you attend!
Aside from those two, there's no good reason anyone should avoid PyCon, and we all know it.
Except that saying anything that might offend anyone there may get you fired. Nope. That's no reason to avoid it.
Who is John Galt?
Even if human societies behaved like dogpacks (which they don't), simply declaring yourself "alpha" wouldn't make you...
...but I guess we can't expect great logic from someone who's proudly declaring his believe in the Sunk Cost Fallacy (also hypocrisy, since *everything* includes genocide which you just condemned "jihadists" for).
Well, anyone who's ever seen the kind of total war you're promoting or gets caught up in one might dislike you for said promotion, which doesn't really strike me as particularly childish reason. Also, most people will probably not like someone who dismisses their culture, so add Muslims to the list. And I doubt scientists are happy with you trying to elevate their results into capital-T Truth, since that tends to hinder their work.
Don't vote for any politician unless they sound like they're paraphrasing Atlas Shrugged? Sorry, but no; having hundreds of millions of dollars does not mean you "generated" that wealth, it means that you are good at concentrating economic power into your hands - and even most often, than you were born rich.
What it actually achieved were a number of colonial empires. Those collapsed after two world wars caused by people who tried to be "alpha". Then people like you start twisting history to fit into your (totally non-racist, because you believe racism is wrong, and this all sounds exactly like classic racist spiel purely by accident) superhero fantasy, all because you want a strong leader who doesn't care about being liked to make you feel more like "alpha" - you know, coming to think of it, this is almost starting to sound like the prelude to one of those world wars.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
I'm hoping she'll get a new job, but that it won't have anything to do with Python, or programming.
She seems like a repeat offender, so if she's allowed back into such a conference again, or to confer with developers again: I'm afraid the same behavior might be repeated.
Fired from life is too harsh. Exile from the community she doesn't understand is OK.
Oh no, how can I possibly risk going to Pycon? The Thought Policy will find me and turn my every word against me! My career will be in tatters! No I shall hide in my basement and think safe thoughts!
No, really I love events like Pycon. Pycon is run by volunteers and the attending community are by and amazing human beings. The reason the code of conduct even exists is because theres is an extreme disproportionate lack of diversity within. We're mostly populated by white males like myself. We (or at least the software community I network with) want to encourage diversity and thus become stronger. Part of that is dealing with some unfortunate ugly truths, one of which is that there is a geniune harassment problem in our industry and it needs to be stomped out.
And of course donglegate had nothing to do with diversity or conduct policies. The transgression would have taken 5 minutes to resolve peacefully between adults. But instead somebody wanted to pick an internet fight and misery ensued. Nobody involved won on that day but I personally think Pycon was one of least deserving victims of that particular train crash. They ran yet another a fantastic event but all the outside world is going to hear is about donglegate
If you think Adria Richards does not understand that community, you should read how the story is told by two female reporters, Dana Liebelson and Tasneem Raja, on Motherjones.com:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/pycon-2013-sexism-dongle-richards
According to that version, "Richards' termination triggered its own surge of support, from passionate tweets with the hashtag #SupportAdria to a DDoS attack on SendGrid that crippled their website for a good chunk of the workday on Thursday". That is the first version I read where it is said that the DDoS was caused to *support* Adria Richards.
Also the post of a female blogger who sheds a very interesting light on Adria Richards as a repeat offender (including a whole section called "An Established Pattern of Action") is summarized in a biased manner.
https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
To anyone who has a minute to spare I strongly suggest to read the Amanda Blum post. As for the masterpiece from Liebelson & Raja, well it shows that some people don't let the facts in the way of promoting an agenda (and/or a career).
lucm, indeed.
And the fact that this was moderated +5 Insightful shows why the industry has such a long way to go
A comment on Slashdot shows why the industry has such a long way to go? Interesting.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
Or, based on the example of more advanced capitalist societies (e.g. the U.S.A.), capitalism helps lock sexism in. Now, instead of simple crude ignorant misogyny by the ruling male class (which can slowly be fixed by education and living proof that women, too, have fully functional human minds), the managerial class has a *profit motive* for intentionally keeping women marginalized and unequal. With 20-30% wage cuts at stake, the "enlightened-self-interest" profiteer will gladly hire obedient, compliant (desperate) women --- so long as they make no attempt to rock the boa(r|t) and fight against discriminatory wages. That's an extra 20-30% from each workers wage now placed in management's pocket, available to buy government support and propaganda campaigns to teach everyone how grateful women should be for their new positions (and how men should lower their wage expectations if they expect to compete).
The 20-30% wage differential for equal work is actually not just in China --- approximately the same level exists in the USA. Of course, in the USA, managers know better than to openly talk about their discriminatory practices. But, so long as everything is done with a proper level of plausible deniability, and the occasional sacrifice of a low-level scapegoat for high-level problems, the real practice of gender wage discrimination contributes significantly the country's ever-widening gap between the working class and management/investment elites. After all, the USA is a "post-feminism" country, where "women already have equal rights," so "there's no real problems for whiny bitches to complain about"; people complaining about gender inequality "are just man-hating feminazis," who earn lower wages "because they just aren't as good workers."
Wow - almost EVERY SINGLE comment is 4+ "insightful" or "interesting". The level of discussion must be incredible.
I'm not muddled --- of course businesses want to keep wages down for *everyone*; starting with half the population willing to work for lower wages is very helpful for achieving that end (and a long-term strategic investor class will want to keep it that way, not kill the golden-egg-laying goose).
Your analysis specifically assumes that labor is a limited supply pool that can drive up competitive prices. China has over a billion person population, largely employed in rural situations (e.g. a huge pool of potential technology workers, with just a little selection/training to skim 10,000,000+ top-1%-intelligence candidates from the rice paddies). Likewise, in the USA, unemployment is ~8% among people actively looking (and much higher counting the underemployed and given-up-trying). "Competition" in this situation isn't to drive up employee wages by offering just enough more to get your competitor's workers to switch: instead, the competition is to offer as much less as you can, while telling your employees how grateful they should be to get anything in this tough economy (despite record-breaking profits for their overlords).
Note a key distinction: I don't think "the salary differential is due to misogyny" at its root --- misogyny is an effect (useful to those benefiting), rather than a cause. The love of money (the profit motive) is the root cause, that makes maintaining institutionalized misogyny a multi-trillion-dollar prize.
As to "you're free to start your own business with egalitarian hiring practices," no --- that's a completely empty freedom for me and the overwhelming majority of working-class stiffs in this country who don't have a couple hundred thousand spare dollars lying around to start up ventures. I'm equally "free to buy the Empire State Building" (if I only had a zillion dollars) --- but, even if my buying the Empire State Building would somehow usher in heaven on earth, it ain't happening. The Capitalist system selects for viciously amoral profiteering sociopaths to end up with most of the wealth (i.e. resources for shaping future change) in the world, e.g. the sort of people who are overjoyed to continue exploiting gender wage differences. Even if I was a freak millionaire with a social conscience, my one-man-crusade for an equal wage workplace wouldn't make a dent; I'd just run myself bankrupt competing against the more profitable louts.
"this, largely, is why the salary differential is declining.": No, the salary differential is largely declining because male workers are getting lower and lower pay (thanks to stagnant or declining wages despite growing labor productivity and profitability); not because working women are being raised up. Yay!??
Capitalism isn't "responsible for all that's wrong with the world" --- but I am going to hold it responsible for the wrongs in the large portions of the world under its thrall. Remember, "greater efficiency" in Capitalism only directly means "greater efficiency at stuffing the pockets of the already wealthy," which is undoubtedly happening. You've been conned into assuming this is equivalent to, or at least necessarily causative of, improvements for everyone else. The real world record indicates otherwise.
In well run places it takes a lot more to get fired than what any of these three did. Either it was the latest of a long run of mistakes or their management in both places is clueless MBA's with nothing else to add a spine.