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Big Advance In Hydrogen Production Could Change Alternative Energy Landscape

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers at Virginia Tech say they've had a genuine breakthrough in alternative energy production that could shake up the world's energy structure. Specifically, they've hit on a way to derive large amounts of hydrogen from any plant source. The method uses renewable natural resources, releases almost no greenhouse gasses, and needs no costly or heavy metals. The key is using xylose, the most abundant simple plant sugar, to produce a large quantity of hydrogen that previously was attainable only in theory."

340 comments

  1. Not a replacement yet by tech.kyle · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At least for use in cars, I believe there's still the problem of storing enough of that hydrogen to get any decent range. Nice to hear we're making progress though. Yay humanity!

    --
    If we colonize Mars, it won't be the World Wide Web anymore. UWW?
    1. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      to store it you use a type IV tank, not the fuel cell nonsense

    2. Re:Not a replacement yet by Matrix14 · · Score: 1

      Not really. Better battery technologies could increase the prevalence of electric cars, and the conversion of hydrogen to electricity can happen offline (i.e., at a power plant).

    3. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Funny

      You could take that H2 and combine it with some carbon and some oxygen. I believe these new fuels are called hydrocarbons. My understanding is that these revolutionary molecules have a high energy density and combusting them should be a reasonable way to use it to power vehicles.

    4. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone started Cocktail Hour early this week.

    5. Re:Not a replacement yet by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 2

      The Honda fuel cell car can go 240 miles between fillups. That's nothing breakthrough, but it's far enough. You can also refill it in a few minutes at a hydrogen equipped gas station. I know the technology needs to get better, but the technology to use hydrogen is already here. The problem has always been how to get hydrogen efficiently. These seems to have solved that, hopefully.

    6. Re:Not a replacement yet by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 1

      Forgot to post a link to the Honda FXC Clarity http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/refueling.aspx

    7. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      How much does the fuel cell cost?

      It is my understanding that they require platinum series metals.

    8. Re:Not a replacement yet by chill · · Score: 4, Funny

      It is my understanding that they require platinum series metals.

      Sounds like a couple of women I've dated.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    9. Re:Not a replacement yet by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There is battery life. But what we really need is recharge time. You can fill a hydrogen car in about as much time it takes to fill a gasoline car. If you can get 300 miles per charge, and fill it in under 5 minutes, and fuel costs is low enough, it would make it viable.

      However if you travel and you go beyond the storage limit even, and it will take you 6 hours to recharge, you will probably not want that car, even though it is only a 5 times a year occurrence.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    10. Re:Not a replacement yet by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      "It is my understanding that they require platinum series metals."
      So does the catalytic converter, in your gasoline care. which you wouldn't need if you had a hydrogen car.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      catalytic converters for internal combustion engines also require platinum.

    12. Re:Not a replacement yet by polar+red · · Score: 4, Informative

      converting plant matter into electricity or hydrogen wouldn't be efficient : photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy and converting this chemical energy into hydrogen and theninto electricity won't improve on this; while a decent solar panel reaches at least 10% (more like 14-19%), into electricity.

      --
      Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
    13. Re:Not a replacement yet by EvanED · · Score: 1

      However if you travel and you go beyond the storage limit even, and it will take you 6 hours to recharge...

      Hell, even the 45-60 minutes of the Tesla's superchargers are, IMO, way too long for how often you have to do it.

    14. Re:Not a replacement yet by Motard · · Score: 2

      We'll get to see the state of the art at LeMans this year (in July). The GreenGT H2 car will be the first hydrogen fuel cell car to participate in the 24 hour race.

    15. Re:Not a replacement yet by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      1. Just how much energy would it take to recombine hydrogen with carbon and oxygen to make hydrocarbons?
      2. Hydrogen still delivers more bang per unit of measure than any hydrocarbon.
      3. Burning hydrocarbons creates greenhouse gases.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    16. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, but the amounts required are quite different, or have been so far. Has that been fixed yet?

    17. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      1. Lots, just like the energy required to liquify the hydrogen.
      2. So long as your unit of measure is not volume.
      3. Not if you get your CO2 from the air.

    18. Re:Not a replacement yet by Gabrill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The goal is energy storage and mobility. Stored hydrogen is much more efficient than a solar panel at night or under ground, for example.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    19. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 2

      The difference is that hydrogen is easier to store and transport without loss. This technology could also be used to transform waste into hydrogen therefore reducing two issues at the same time.

    20. Re:Not a replacement yet by dino2gnt · · Score: 1

      3. Burning hydrocarbons creates greenhouse gases.

      It would be a carbon-neutral cycle, as you're not introducing previously sequestered carbons into the atmosphere. Burning hydrocarbons doesn't *create* greenhouse gases, it only *retuns them to the atmosphere*

      --
      Future events such as these may affect you in the future!
    21. Re:Not a replacement yet by kenaaker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's called a Sabatier reaction. It is the reaction of hydrogen and carbon dioxide, under pressure, at 300-400 C, in the presence of a nickel catalyst to produce methane and water. The methane can be transported in the existing natural gas pipeline system or used by a reforming fuel cell. The methane can also be used in one of the variations of the Fischer-Tropsch reactions to make liquid fuels.

    22. Re:Not a replacement yet by Gr8Apes · · Score: 4, Informative

      Solar panels are now close to 40%.

      What you overlook is that this process uses biomass (ie, waste plant matter) to produce H2 in a process with 100% energy gain (the energy out is more than the energy in) not to mention that the energy put in could be waste heat, resulting in essentially free H2. H2 can be used in portable capacities, such as cars. Solar cannot fulfill these particular needs, although it could be used to create H2, at a much lower level of efficiency.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    23. Re:Not a replacement yet by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Today's lithium batteries can be charged to 80% in less than 20 minutes (a normal road trip pit stop)--no matter how big they are--and this will only improve. All we need is the network of DC Quick Charge stations. Building out quick-charge infrastructure is orders of magnitude cheaper than building a hydrogen distribution system. Tesla is already doing it (with their "Supercharger" network), and cost is such a non-issue that they provide it as a free perk for their drivers. With their included solar panels selling back power when not in use, the installations virtually pay for themselves. But if this is still a problem for you, get a range-extended electric vehicle like the Chevy Volt. Your daily commute will still be cheap, low-emissions electric driving, but you always have the option of driving continuously on the gas generator. It's unreasonable to expect society to build out hydrogen infrastructure when it's really just a stopgap until we have better batteries--400 mile range and 10-minute quick-charge time are not that far off. The long-haul trucking industry will come up with their own solution to fuel and carbon prices, but their needs don't have to dictate what daily commuters use.

    24. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Funny

      You know how I can tell you've never tried to store and transport hydrogen without loss?

      It's your lack of esoteric materials and liquid helium coolant tanks.

    25. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Informative

      Top-tier solar panels are now close to 19.2%. Solar collectors using polished metal parabolic reflectors concentrating sunlight onto sterling engines are close to 40% (38% actually).

    26. Re:Not a replacement yet by FridayBob · · Score: 1

      Indeed, this is not a solution for the fuel-cell problem, but at this point personal transportation is not important. The immediate and most significant aspect of this technology is that it may be a viable replacement for fossil fuels in the not too distant future. If it works, the next problem will be supplying the enormous amounts of xylose needed to maintain the necessary levels of hydrogen production, and that may yet prove to be a challenge regardless of the efficiency of the process.

    27. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen has the opposite problem that if you don't drive, you lose power. It leaks. Through a half inch of solid steel.

    28. Re:Not a replacement yet by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Eh? A "fuel cell" is a chemical reactor, that oxidizes a fuel source to produce electricity and exhaust. It has nothing to do with storage.

    29. Re:Not a replacement yet by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      converting plant matter into electricity or hydrogen wouldn't be efficient : photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy

      It is not efficient in terms of watts/m^2, but the more important metric is watts/$. A square meter PV panel costs hundreds of dollars. A square meter of corn, sugar cane, or switchgrass costs less than one dollar.

    30. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whaddya mean?!? I always keep my solar panels underground at night.

    31. Re:Not a replacement yet by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 1

      What you're forgetting is cost. Let me give you a car analogy. Let's say you have a choice between buying two identical cars. One gets 30 MPG and costs $30k, and the other gets 60 MPG but costs $60k. Let's assume that you drive 15,000 miles a year, and fuel will cost $4 a gallon. You would have to drive the car 450,000 miles before you would break even in costs. That's assuming that everything else is identical in the car.

      So how does that relate to plants vs solar panels? How much does a solar panel cost? How much does a plant cost? Get the picture?

    32. Re:Not a replacement yet by Zemran · · Score: 1

      Electric cars sound great as long as you do not live in a flat. How do you connect to the power grid if you have to park out on the street? Most people cannot even park outside their own house let alone connect a power lead. If you live on the fourth floor you are not going to hang a power lead out the window :-) I do think that it is great tech but it is very limited.

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    33. Re:Not a replacement yet by cmorriss · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Solar panels are close to 40% efficient? As in, I can buy one of those now? Tell that to Sun Power that just released a panel with "World Record Breaking" efficiency of 21.5%.

      http://www.sacbee.com/2013/04/03/5312696/sunpower-launches-x-series-family.html

      --
      10 minutes working on a sig. What a waste.
    34. Re:Not a replacement yet by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the fact that they're trying to use the superchargers to hawk their +$60,000 cars has nothing to do with their giving away energy.

    35. Re:Not a replacement yet by icebike · · Score: 1

      But we don't pay anything for sunlight, and plants are going to grow whether we are involved or not.
      So efficiency really doesn't come into play here.

      Hydrogen is a more mobile fuel source, and battery technology is still a huge problem.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    36. Re:Not a replacement yet by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      They got the storage down pretty well I think. There's hydrogen cars drive around all over my town. I also know some off-road guys that use it in competition because they get their trucks at crazy angles sometimes and liquid fuel becomes problematic when the trucks at a 90 degree angle.

      http://experimentalev.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/tank.jpg

    37. Re:Not a replacement yet by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      The counter is that traditional crystalline silicon panels are expensive to produce, and even cheaper (and less efficient) amorphous ones still require a significant energy input to manufacture. Light sensors and tracking motors need maintenance. The panels themselves can get damaged and need replacement. A simple, robust plant could be grown for comparatively low cost, and even though the percentage of conversion is much lower, requiring much larger swaths of land for energy generation, it could potentially be a cheaper solution. That's the same reason why there is so much interest in thin film polymer cells, even though the best are only capable of a couple percent.

    38. Re:Not a replacement yet by icebike · · Score: 1

      Just leave out the carbon, problem solved.

      Hydrogen Plus Air = energy + water. Why go the long way around?

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    39. Re:Not a replacement yet by suutar · · Score: 1

      looking solely at the sunlight->electricity aspect, that's true, but in the plant process you also get CO2->O2 conversion, which solar cells don't do, and plants may require less energy input to cultivate and harvest (or at least less _new_ energy input, if we can use waste material from other plant-using processes like agriculture). After all, isn't one of the perennial gripes about solar panels the amount of energy and materials it takes to manufacture them?

      Don't get me wrong, I love solar panels as a concept, and I love this as a concept. They're useful for different things, though. The great strengths of gasoline have always been portability and high energy density. Hydrogen has less energy density (by volume, maybe not by mass) and is less portable, but if it's easier to produce, it may still be worthwhile.

    40. Re:Not a replacement yet by jeffmeden · · Score: 2

      converting plant matter into electricity or hydrogen wouldn't be efficient : photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy and converting this chemical energy into hydrogen and theninto electricity won't improve on this; while a decent solar panel reaches at least 10% (more like 14-19%), into electricity.

      How many solar sells make themselves from seeds? Or act as a battery while they collect the energy, and simply wait ready to be used? If you had 1/10th of a square mile with which to make the most energy possible, sure you would want solar cells. But if you had 100 square miles, photosynthesis would be far more economical.

    41. Re:Not a replacement yet by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      1. Just how much energy would it take to recombine hydrogen with carbon and oxygen to make hydrocarbons?

      1) I dunno. Sorry.

      2. Hydrogen still delivers more bang per unit of measure than any hydrocarbon.

      2) false. Energy per unit volume of H2 in real use is pitiful, absolutely awful. There has been a lot of systematic misinformation circulated about this by existing energy vendors that stand to benefit from a so-called "hydrogen economy" fueled by burning petroleum. They do it by focusing on the energy per unit mass, and pretending there are not any great difficulties associated with using and storing H2 at extremely high pressure. Look at the circle-jerk on Wikipedia for example - right now the most important table is miniaturized while the most misleading table leads the article. The automotive engineer's usage of energy density is recategorized as specific energy (and no tables are presented on that page!). Compared to gasoline or biodiesel, hydrogen totally sucks as a fuel - and that's before you subtract the energy cost of creating the hydrogen, which you really should do since exploitable H2 doesn't occur in nature. But most people aren't going to figure that out from reading Wikipedia.

      3. Burning hydrocarbons creates greenhouse gases.

      3) True, but re-releasing greenhouse gases taken from the atmosphere in the first place (no net change) is vastly different from digging up sequestered carbon and injecting it into your breathing air. This is a major reason why sustainable biofuels are better than petroleum - plants get over 99% of their carbon directly from the air. Nearly all current H2 production is conventionally fueled, so it releases geologically sequestered carbon to make it.

    42. Re:Not a replacement yet by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      2. Hydrogen still delivers more bang per unit of measure than any hydrocarbon.

      That depends entirely on your unit of measure. Units of volume are pretty important too, and you have to get compressed hydrogen up to around three thousand atmospheres before it has the same volumetric density as gasoline.

    43. Re:Not a replacement yet by afidel · · Score: 2

      Trucks will likely convert to natural gas, Berkshire Hathaway owned BNSF railroad has already started the conversion and most folks know Warren Buffet is not exactly dumb when it comes to economics.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    44. Re:Not a replacement yet by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen has the opposite problem that if you don't drive, you lose power. It leaks. Through a half inch of solid steel.

      According to Nasa, hydrogen will leak through microscopic pores in welds. But that is not the same as leaking directly through cast steel, and storage tanks can be cast as a single piece, without welds. Or a welded tank could have an additional layer of another material, such as aluminum, on the interior surface.

    45. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Because the whole point is the get the volumetric energy density up to a useful point and to not have to deal with hydrogen embrittling metal.

      Pure hydrogen is a PITA to deal with.

    46. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is, but the joke comes from me pretending as though this is something new an amazing.

      In Summary; WHOOSH!

    47. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The great strengths of gasoline have always been portability and high energy density. Hydrogen has less energy density (by volume, maybe not by mass) and is less portable, but if it's easier to produce, it may still be worthwhile.

      This process uses the xylose to generate hydrogen; just add plasma to the leftovers (mostly cellulose) to generate syngas and combine that with the hydrogen to make gasoline.

    48. Re:Not a replacement yet by MiniMike · · Score: 1

      Solar panels are improving, but you need to look at the total energy balance. Don't forget about the embedded energy used in making a solar panel, and that you can easily have 100-1000x the surface area growing vegetation than you would have covered by solar panels. They're complementary technologies, each with their own market. No one technology will replace fossil fuels, but this tech will give Hydrogen a bigger place in the energy market.

    49. Re:Not a replacement yet by Bengie · · Score: 3, Informative
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-22/boeing-to-enter-solar-power-market-with-high-efficiency-cells-in-january.html

      Boeing Co., the world’s largest aerospace company, plans to deliver its first commercial scale high-efficiency solar-power cells for Earth-based electricity production in January.

      The concentrating photovoltaic cells, developed by Boeing’s Spectrolab unit for satellites and the International Space Station, can convert as much as 39.2 percent of sunlight into electricity, Chicago-based Boeing said today in a statement.

      Never said it would be cheap.

    50. Re:Not a replacement yet by Bengie · · Score: 0

      They're not taxing the CO2 in the fuel yet. If someone ruined my property because of pollution, I would want to be compensated, same thing for people using fossil fuels. Once fossil fuels start to reflect their "real" costs, then the prices will be more competitive.

    51. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just leave out the carbon, problem solved.

      Hydrogen Plus Air = energy + water. Why go the long way around?

      Go the long way around to avoid the problems with either compressing or liquefying the hydrogen and the associated unwieldy transportation and storage.

    52. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you're the guy in the early 1900's who was saying the same old thing about Gasoline Stations being built across the country so automobile and motorcycle manufacturers could 'hawk' their products.

    53. Re:Not a replacement yet by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Nevertheless, I'll take a tree in place of a solar panel any day of the week. Somehow the idea of needing more plants instead of needing more free surface for solar panels seems much more attractive, in spite of the lower efficiency of plants (unless, of course, we are talking about my roof!). Besides, a plant you can also eat, at least in part, and use the rest for energy. Let's see how you can do this with a solar panel!

    54. Re:Not a replacement yet by Bengie · · Score: 1

      You should check out those newer batteries that are being developed that can charge/discharge 10x-100x faster than current lead acid and can store 10x-100x the amount of energy while weighing less. The actually have working versions, they're just expensive and not quite safe, but they are "working".

      If new electric cars go from 60 miles between 8 hour recharges to 600-6000 miles between 8 hour recharges, it won't be so bad. I just can't wait to see how they plan to create charging stations that can handle that kind of current.

    55. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      What about the fill/extraction ports?

    56. Re:Not a replacement yet by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      Yes, human effort is really the only thing that matters, regardless of all the other factors.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    57. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Informative

      Holy shit that's a lot of technical problems. If the tank isn't kept ultra-cold (i.e. it's hot outside) it explodes. As you burn hydrogen, pressure drops, the hydrogen in the tank cools the metal ridiculously. And what's with this mass/volume of storage? That's good if you need transport, but not necessarily efficient to produce--gasoline could be 20 times as efficient and it would be 100% useless in space versus 2% efficient hydrogen. How do they compare?

      Storing and transporting hydrogen is just too friggin' complex for econoboxes.

    58. Re:Not a replacement yet by Solandri · · Score: 3, Insightful

      converting plant matter into electricity or hydrogen wouldn't be efficient : photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy and converting this chemical energy into hydrogen and theninto electricity won't improve on this; while a decent solar panel reaches at least 10% (more like 14-19%), into electricity.

      True in terms of conversion efficiency. But once you look at cost efficiency, the balance flips the other way. You can cover the entire planet in plants for less than the cost of a single solar panel, because plants grow and spread by themselves.

      In fact there's millions of tons of plant matter we already gather (weeds and unused portions of food crops like corn stalks) which we currently burn or bury. All that could be converted into hydrogen essentially for free via a process like this. In that case the conversion efficiency becomes meaningless because the opportunity cost is negative: Right now it costs you to get rid of the waste plant matter. If you convert it into hydrogen instead, that means you get both the benefit of the hydrogen as a fuel and you don't have to pay to dispose of the plant matter.

    59. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like to meet those women. The ones I met required large amounts of alcohol and even then they would only give me the time of day after being rejected by every other guy in the bar. Posting AC out of patheticness

    60. Re:Not a replacement yet by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Looks like the spare tire and all your luggage (and the dog) will have to go on the roof

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    61. Re:Not a replacement yet by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      How do you connect to the power grid if you have to park out on the street?

      If you park on the street, you probably don't want to be an early adopter. But as EVs become more common, parking spaces can be fitted with inductive rechargers. These already exist, but are not common. For instance, my local Costco has two parking spaces that recharge your car while you shop.

       

    62. Re:Not a replacement yet by Ossifer · · Score: 2

      "As much as" == "up to" == "you'll never get close to this but it's a nice idea for marketing purposes"....

    63. Re:Not a replacement yet by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      Hydrogen has the opposite problem that if you don't drive, you lose power. It leaks. Through a half inch of solid steel.

      According to Nasa, hydrogen will leak through microscopic pores in welds. But that is not the same as leaking directly through cast steel, and storage tanks can be cast as a single piece, without welds. Or a welded tank could have an additional layer of another material, such as aluminum, on the interior surface.

      The container needs a hole in it to get the hydrogen in and out. It will leak through the connection to the plumbing.

      That being said, casing the container as a single piece is a very very good idea.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    64. Re:Not a replacement yet by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      A simple, robust plant could be grown for comparatively low cost,

      Yes. Like that stuff many people have growing all around their homes. Oh, what is it called? Right. Grass. I know I cut that stuff down every week and it just keep growing back. [ Okay, I lied. I pay someone to cut it. :-) ]

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    65. Re:Not a replacement yet by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      If we had an easy way to extract carbon directly from air, we would already be doing it.

      Though I suppose "planting trees" could qualify as easy. In fact they make trees part of the cycle:
      1. Harvest trees.
      2. Create charcoal from trees. (Effectively burn the trees without O2 present. This causes the trees to generate straight C instead of CO2)
      3. Combine charcoal with extracted hydrogen to create hydrocarbons.
      4. Burn hydrocarbons as fuel, releasing CO2.
      5. Plant trees.

      The issue here is that steps 1, 2, 3 and 5 require fuel to do; and may require more than you get by creating the hydrocarbons in step 3.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    66. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the fuck modded this and OP "funny"? The same numb-nuts who put the story in the "hardware" category?

      Seriously, put down whatever you're smoking. Crack and moderation don't mix.

    67. Re:Not a replacement yet by whit3 · · Score: 1

      There is battery life. But what we really need is recharge time. You can fill a hydrogen car in about as much time it takes to fill a gasoline car.

      It's not practical or safe to fuel a car with pressurized gas or with liquid H2. The best prospect for automotive hydrogen tanks is a sponge-like intercalation storage, and it TAKES TIME to fill (or drain) that kind of tank.

      H2 cars will have to swap cartridges at refuel stations. Metal embrittlement is no real problem when the fueling stations are required to reinspect and rebuild on safe schedules.

    68. Re:Not a replacement yet by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

      Cost to build and install several square kilometers of solar panels: HUGE
      Cost to mow several square kilometers of grass or small plants and send it to your processing facility: minimal

      It's not just about how much sunlight we can turn into electricity. There's way more sunlight than we need. It's about how we can do that cheaply and easily.

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
    69. Re:Not a replacement yet by Mystakaphoros · · Score: 1

      True enough, but harvesting energy from solar panels require installation, whereas harvesting energy from photosynthesis requires a lawnmower.

    70. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting side note: if economists really understood the economy, wouldn't they be getting rich instead of working as economists??

    71. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just wonder if there is a way to easily suck out carbon from the air and turn H2 into propane.

      Even if there are losses, storing, transporting, filling, and using propane is a very well-established, and there are a number of advantages with going with LP gas, such as having to have the exact ratio of air to propane for it to ignite, the fact that it isn't an ozone eater or a greenhouse gas, the ability to use it as a refrigerant (R290), it won't foul when stored (unlike gasoline and diesel), it won't leave varnish on injectors and carbs, and it has almost as much energy per volume as gasoline. Of course, there are hazards such as burns from freezing-cold liquid, but overall, it is less dangerous than gasoline, especially if there is a leak (gasoline makes a mini-Superfund site if it leaks in the ground, propane just disperses.)

    72. Re:Not a replacement yet by MiniMike · · Score: 2

      Holy shit that's a lot of technical problems.

      Welcome to every new technology, ever.

      If the tank isn't kept ultra-cold (i.e. it's hot outside) it explodes.

      Pressure relief valve. It's mentioned in the link. The article is discussing liquid Hydrogen, which is not being discussed for use in cars.

      As you burn hydrogen, pressure drops, the hydrogen in the tank cools the metal ridiculously.

      1. How fast do you think the Hydrogen is being released? Under normal conditions, normal thermal transfer should keep the tank warm.
      2. If it's a problem, waste heat will be used to warm the tank.

      And what's with this mass/volume of storage? That's good if you need transport, but not necessarily efficient to produce--gasoline could be 20 times as efficient and it would be 100% useless in space versus 2% efficient hydrogen. How do they compare?

      Not sure what you mean by this- why would a fuel that was 20 times more efficient than Hydrogen be useless in space?

    73. Re:Not a replacement yet by myth24601 · · Score: 3, Funny

      It is always a good thing to have some earth between your solar panels and the sun when it is night time.

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    74. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Solar panels are now close to 40%."

    75. Re:Not a replacement yet by Mystakaphoros · · Score: 1

      Less of an eyesore, too.

    76. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know how valid this is but I remember seeing this a couple years back http://news.softpedia.com/news/Hydrogen-Fuel-Cells-Can-Be-Produced-Without-Platinum-196449.shtml basically fuel cells with carbon, iron, and cobalt instead of platinum.

    77. Re:Not a replacement yet by Mike_EE_U_of_I · · Score: 1

      What you're forgetting is cost. Let me give you a car analogy. Let's say you have a choice between buying two identical cars. One gets 30 MPG and costs $30k, and the other gets 60 MPG but costs $60k.

      Let me fix that car analogy for you. First car gets 30 MPG and costs $30K. Second car gets 60 MPG and costs one and a half million dollars.

          The super high efficiency cells cost around 500 times more than bulk produced generic silicon cells. To the best of my knowledge, they are only used in space because of the price tag.

    78. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the key point here is not suggesting storing the hydrogen and transporting it

      he is suggesting fuel cells in cars powered by the hydrogen that has just been created by the enzymes in your fuel tank , so when you "fill up" your adding food stock/celulose, the enzymes would then create hydrogen which your engine would burn to create electricity until all the hydrogen had gone and a battery would store the energy. Presumably the fuel would be stored in one receptical and passed to the enzymes as needed before the hydrogne is fed to the fuel cell

    79. Re:Not a replacement yet by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      To the person who modded this Troll, I will remind you that, contrary what the capitalists will tell you, we live in a post scarcity world. That's why human effort is what counts, and is the only thing we need to compensate. Everything else is there for the taking.

      In other words, I fart in your general direction.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    80. Re:Not a replacement yet by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 1

      Well, in fairness I was comparing plants to average efficiency solar cells. I'm sure the cost differential is equally staggering, but the point was to make a semi-realistic example.

    81. Re:Not a replacement yet by jitterman · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, you will learn that the process being used is not photosynthesis, and that the end product leads to a net gain in energy, rather than the loss that occurs with all hydrogen extraction processes used to date.

      --
      For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
    82. Re:Not a replacement yet by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      1. Harvest trees.
      2. Create charcoal from trees. (Effectively burn the trees without O2 present. This causes the trees to generate straight C instead of CO2)
      3. Combine charcoal with extracted hydrogen to create hydrocarbons.
      4. Burn hydrocarbons as fuel, releasing CO2.
      5. Plant trees.

      The issue here is that steps 1, 2, 3 and 5 require fuel to do; and may require more than you get by creating the hydrocarbons in step 3.

      Steps 2,3 can be done with any excess charcoal or just plain wood. Steps 1,5 can be done by hand if you've got enough lumberjacks.

    83. Re:Not a replacement yet by jitterman · · Score: 1

      But what about crack IN moderation?

      --
      For conscience is the wound, and there's naught to staunch it
    84. Re:Not a replacement yet by Teun · · Score: 1

      I fart in your general direction.

      That's largely Methane, four Hydrogen atoms for every Carbon one. :)

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    85. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So maybe not zero loss but still a heck of a lot less loss than electricity.

    86. Re:Not a replacement yet by deadweight · · Score: 1

      You described alcohol, not hydrocarbons. We already do plants>alcohol ;)

    87. Re:Not a replacement yet by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      Not only does my installation ensure there is earth between the panels and the sun after the day is over, I've carefully arranged it so that the back of the solar panels face the sun at night. That's how youz know i r an engeenee-er.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    88. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Nobody's brought up real numbers on hydrogen usage, so I question these, with hypotheticals.

      Consider if you have one unit of fuel that produces 1000J of usable energy. This fuel is Hydrogen or Gasoline, for simplicity.

      Now let's say it takes 2000J of energy to produce that unit of gasoline that you can burn for 1000J of usable energy, but 20,000J of energy to produce the unit of Hydrogen that you can burn for 1000J of usable energy. In these terms, gasoline is more efficient: you use less energy to get a fuel unit you can burn to produce a certain amount of output in the fueled machine.

      Now let's say that 1000J unit of fuel is 1 liter of Gasoline, or 10mL of Hydrogen. Space vehicles spend most of their energy getting their own fuel off the ground in the early launch stages--really fucking heavy fuel won't work. Further, the final module is small (again to save materials weight). Since Hydrogen in this model would be 1/100 of the volume, there's a storage space savings for final module fuel (and booster size, where the booster is metal--but again, early launch cares about fuel weight). With hydrogen not being 100 times as dense as gasoline, there's also a weight savings.

      So in this model, hydrogen is a TERRIBLE fuel; however it's much more viable as a fuel source than gasoline for space travel, because you would need a LOT more gasoline, your module would be a LOT bigger, your boosters would be MASSIVE, and you might break the theoretical limit where you simply can't get enough output to lift the damn thing with all that heavy fuel if you tried launching with gasoline.

      NASA has different concerns that determine what's viable tech. Fuel source is tech. Is hydrogen a better fuel, or is it just a better space fuel?

    89. Re:Not a replacement yet by DrHeasley · · Score: 3, Informative

      Moving energy around in trucks is wasteful and slow compared to moving it through the already established electrical grid. The only reasons we stay with liquid fuels are that battery and charging technology doesn't yet supply the needed mileage range and quick recharge rate. And to keep oil companies and gas stations in business.

    90. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      plants are going to grow whether we are involved or not

      It's not so simple. Depending on how many plants you need, you may also need an awful lot of artificial fertilizer and/or pesticides, just like you need currently to produce food. Every calorie of food on your table required 10 calories of fossil fuel energy (from oil and natural gas) to grow.

    91. Re:Not a replacement yet by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy and converting this chemical energy into hydrogen and theninto electricity won't improve on this

      That's still a large amount of energy, if you compare the area of Earth's surface covered by green plants with the area of Earth's surface covered by PV panels.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    92. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 2

      How much energy and material does it take to make the biocatalysts? By concentrating on the final step we are only getting part of the story.

    93. Re:Not a replacement yet by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you're right.

      I was going for the funny and did not stop to think. Just pretend I was talking about methanol all along.

    94. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like hell I do. I can fertilize with compost and kill insects with soapy water. If I just needed biomass, I could [move and] grow hemp with zero petrochemicals but what goes in to the tractor's fuel tank, which, at that point, might as well be biodiesel made from last year's crop.The dead dinosaur industry is a fossil.

    95. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something about spectrum seems to be missed here... Ozone layer and why the sky isn't violet....

    96. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Who said trucks? How about ships and pipelines?
      There are a couple of issues with the "use the grid" philosophy;
      1. The grid has a finite volume capacity. Every electric car adds the equivelant of a small house to the grid. If we convert from fossil fuels to electricity we will quickly outstrip the capacity of the existing grid. That would require more transmission line and more switching stations making the grid more unstable and increasing costs.
      2. Alternating current does not travel well over long distances. For every mile there is loss due to resistance, inductance and capacitance. Direct current helps but it too has limitations.

    97. Re:Not a replacement yet by Lennie · · Score: 1

      You most be one of those reverse engineers

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    98. Re:Not a replacement yet by Lennie · · Score: 1

      That sounds great, do you also own a DeLorean ?

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    99. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      All the same arguments can be made about gasoline. Although gasoline is less safe. If you rupture a H2 tank, it is safe. The H2 will rise and float away faster than the fire can propogate down. Gasoline fumes are heaver than air, and collect on the ground, increasing the chance of ignition, and making it unsafe for longer.

    100. Re:Not a replacement yet by marnues · · Score: 1

      Warren Buffet doesn't need to follow the flow. He makes changes, the rest of the world follows.

    101. Re:Not a replacement yet by DrHeasley · · Score: 1

      Moving energy around through ships and pipelines would be akin to the internet running through a "vast network of little tubes." 1. The existing electrical grid has sufficient capacity to power both houses and vehicles for the foreseeable future. As the inevitable transfer from fossil fuels to electricity happens, adding more capacity is well within the capability of existing technology. 2. Edison and Tesla argued strenuously over the advantages and disadvantages of AC vs DC for power transmission. Edison opted for DC, but lost handily because AC can be stepped up and down with transformers and is much easier to handle than DC. Resistance loss happens regardless of DC vs AC. Both are subject to Ohm's law, E=IR. Voltage equals Current times Resistance, so the voltage drop across any conductor is equal to the current traveling through it times its resistance. Energy loss in conductors is far less than the energy required to transport a similar amount using trucks, pipelines, or ships, and even that is improving as we develop better and better conductors, and eventually, superconductors which will have no loss at all.

    102. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You keep your dog in the trunk?

    103. Re:Not a replacement yet by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      You wouldn't want to attempt to store pure hydrogen in some sort of compressed tank. Rather I think people are working on fuel cells to store hydrogen in more dense formats. http://www.hydrogenics.com/fuel/

    104. Re:Not a replacement yet by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      No, but there won't any room for him with the sub-woofers occupying the back seat...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    105. Re:Not a replacement yet by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      You still need to fuel the lumberjacks. It costs energy to create a large number of buttered scones and tea.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    106. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      converting plant matter into electricity or hydrogen wouldn't be efficient : photosynthesis converts 3-6% of solar energy and converting this chemical energy into hydrogen and theninto electricity won't improve on this; while a decent solar panel reaches at least 10% (more like 14-19%), into electricity.

      Solar cells don't automatically grow and produce harvestable energy from 10,000 acres with a few bags of seed either. Photosynthesis may lose in raw efficiency, but it completely dwarves solar electricity in scaling efficiency.

    107. Re:Not a replacement yet by Wintermute__ · · Score: 1

      the key point here is not suggesting storing the hydrogen and transporting it

      he is suggesting fuel cells in cars powered by the hydrogen that has just been created by the enzymes in your fuel tank , so when you "fill up" your adding food stock/celulose, the enzymes would then create hydrogen which your engine would burn to create electricity until all the hydrogen had gone and a battery would store the energy. Presumably the fuel would be stored in one receptical and passed to the enzymes as needed before the hydrogne is fed to the fuel cell

      Mr. Fusion! This car runs on garbage (OK, yard waste).

    108. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't live in a cold weather climate like Canada do you? While I'm sure the electrical distribution problem (eg the size of the plug etc.) is a little different places like Canada still require the ability to plug in a car's block heater and as such apartment (flat) dwellers are well provided with appropriate parking space with access to an electrical outlet in order to do so.

      Coming from Canada, it wouldn't even have occurred to me that there are places designed such that access to an electrical outlet for plugging in a car would be an issue...sucks to live in those places I guess. :-)

    109. Re:Not a replacement yet by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      It is always a good thing to have some earth between your solar panels and the sun when it is night time.

      No, it's a terrible thing -- it greatly reduces the efficiency of the solar panels.

      However, if we were to position a large mirror in geosynchronous orbit, I think we could largely avoid the problem.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    110. Re:Not a replacement yet by Divebus · · Score: 1

      Like every energy breakthrough in the past, someone decided the Big Oil companies would know how to handle and distribute it. Somehow, all those promising alternative energy sources never seemed to work out. BP axes solar power business, Transition from oil to renewable energy 100 years away, says Exxon Mobil and dozens more.

      --

      Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
    111. Re:Not a replacement yet by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Hell, even the 45-60 minutes of the Tesla's superchargers are, IMO, way too long for how often you have to do it.

      How often do you have to use them? I'm guessing not very often, unless you have a ridiculously long daily commute (in which case a gasoline car will be faster, but then you end up paying a huge monthly gas bill instead; either way it sucks).

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    112. Re:Not a replacement yet by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      Electric cars sound great as long as you do not live in a flat. How do you connect to the power grid if you have to park out on the street?

      1) Find nearest street lamp
      2) Patch outlet into the side
      3) Free power forever!

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    113. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 2

      Moving energy around through ships and pipelines would be akin to the internet running through a "vast network of little tubes."

      What do you think "the grid" is but a vast network of metal wires.

      1. Where is your proof that the grid has sufficient capacity for the foreseeable future? Thisand this> article have a different view.

      2. Resistance is not the only issue with electricity transmission. As I stated, so is inductance and capacitance is present in AC systems and gets larger as the conductor get longer. induction leaches by causing voltages in nearby objects and capacitance stores energy and resists voltage change. This is the reason that large DC lines are being put in across the English Channel, the Mediterranean and the Baltic. Line loss is also not only issue. There are switching losses, transformer losses, etc. Take a look at this chart. Notice how capacity goes down as distance gets larger?

    114. Re:Not a replacement yet by EvanED · · Score: 1

      How often do you have to use them? I'm guessing not very often, unless you have a ridiculously long daily commute (in which case a gasoline car will be faster, but then you end up paying a huge monthly gas bill instead; either way it sucks).

      Not very often, but when it is necessary, it can be a big deal. For instance, there are a couple drives I occasionally make which are just on the edge of what I can do in one day. One of them in particular; I've sometimes done it in one, and sometimes done it in two. If I had to do the Tesla charge along the way, there'd probably be no hope.

    115. Re:Not a replacement yet by EvanED · · Score: 1

      Oh, I just re-read my post. :-) I see what prompted your question, because I wasn't very clear.

      What I meant wasn't so much that you'd have to spend a lot of time in an absolute sense on it, but that if you're doing a long trip you have to do an hour-long charge every three hours or so. (At least that's my memory from what people were talking about during the NYTimes review flap.) That's a lot more time stopped than I spend when on a long drive, and that's the frequency I was talking about when I said you have to do it often.

    116. Re:Not a replacement yet by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      but that if you're doing a long trip you have to do an hour-long charge every three hours or so.

      Ah, I see your point.

      Of course, if you're on a 7+ hour drive you're very likely to drive out of range of the current supercharger network anyway. So until batteries get better and/or supercharger stations spread across the country, the Tesla (or any electric car) is probably not the best vehicle for really long road trips.

      Of course, anyone who can afford a Tesla can also afford to occasionally rent a gasoline-powered car instead -- or to buy plane tickets.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    117. Re:Not a replacement yet by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      There are many classes of solar panels and researchers like to keep track of records for each class, then report the record without making any note of which kind it is, just to report that they have a record.

      Quickly scanning the article you posted, I didn't see any reference to which type of cell they used, but most likely it's single-layer monocrystalline silicon (the link is very misleading in this respect). Single-layer solar cells have a maximum possible efficiency of about 30%, but the highest achievable result in labs has generally been close to 20%. This figure can be boosted very slightly (1-2%) by introducing quantum wells, which give you a slight boost in sub-bandgap quantum efficiency (ie. you capture some additional photons below the band-gap while maintaining the cell's overall open circuit voltage), and this is probably what the vendors in this article are doing. While the increase in efficiency seems slight to me, I imagine that it does make a significant gain from an economical point of view.

      The gotcha with these kinds of cells, is the careful deposition that it takes to deliver monocrystalline films, and at the conventional thickness of this type of cell at roughly 1mm (I might be off by an order of magnitude, but it hardly matters), it becomes a very expensive process.

      Other technologies include multijunction cells (as referenced by GP), inorganic thin-films (lower efficiency, much lower cost using a wide variety of materials such as multicrystalline silicon, amorphous silicon, and Copper-Indium-Gallium-Selenide, usually single-junction), and organics (which have absolutely no chance of ever being practical except in maybe some very tiny niche applications).

      In terms of which have the greatest chance of going mainstream, I would say thin-films for small scale applications and the kind in the article you posted for large-scale adoption. But these are just my musings, and I haven't kept up much in this area.

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    118. Re:Not a replacement yet by NemoinSpace · · Score: 1

      I like your spirit, but something tells me your crop yield will be 60% less and you'll starve before winter hits. There is a reason fossil fuel is popular. The U.S spent the last 50 years teaching the 3rd world how to grow food, but now we have people like you who want to heat their house by burning cow dung. good luck.

    119. Re:Not a replacement yet by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      I have serious doubts that 40% solar panels are ever going to be practical. The only practical application I foresee for 40% cells (generally these are triple-junction films) are for space applications, where they have little competition (in powering satellites that is, not for rocket propulsion).

      Making multijunction solar cells is very difficult, and it generally requires very expensive materials (namely Indium) to reach these high efficiencies. It requires carefully tuning two important material properties of the cell's layers, namely that the bandgaps of each layer have to be optimized against the solar spectrum, and the materials joining each other have to match in terms of atomic lattice spacing. Additionally, the materials must have high optical and electronic quality, and the end result is that you're left with a small choice of materials.

      Further, since these cells are very thick and have to be fabricated with the highest degree of precision deposition to ensure high optical and electronic quality. I'm too lazy to reference them, but I'm pretty sure that all those record-breaking solar cells used Molecular Beam Epitaxy, which is ridiculously impractical for large-scale applications.

      The last sort-of issue is repeatability. Most of the time, these reports merely cherry-pick the best result from a large batch of samples. This is far more problematic in organic solar cells - I don't think it's as large of a concern with inorganics.

      So given these issues, I think it's reasonable to suggest that these types of cells will never be feasible for terrestrial applications. And for the record, the last time I checked (1-2 years ago), 3 groups claimed the world record of about 41%-43%, all using slightly different methods to test. It probably hasn't changed much since.

      Personally, I'm a big believer in solar-thermal plants (essentially where sunlight is highly concentrated and stored at thermal energy in molten substances, making it easy to transport to a plant for conversion to electrical energy) which operate continuously, even through the night and are estimated to reach OVER 70% EFFICIENCY and operate at a pithy cost of roughly .06 USD/kWh. There are virtually no drawbacks to these technologies (that I know of, feel free to inform me). I have absolutely no idea why this technology isn't being adopted more, and can only assume that it's due to the lack of investment, partially due to heavy lobbying influence from the anti-progress energy industries.

      Sources:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_thermal_energy#System_designs
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
      http://www.nrel.gov/solar/parabolic_trough.html

      --
      I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
    120. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those are concentrating photovoltaics; polished mirrors reflecting light towards the cells. The cells aren't 39.2% efficient, that's just an article dumbed down for financial reporting.

      Google "concentrating photovoltaics", you'll find plenty of information.

    121. Re: Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To the dude who said that photosynthesis is less efficient than solar panels...

      I think the limiting factor for solar panels at the moment is the cost of the solar panels rather than the cost of the land. So if you need 10 acres of land to grow biofuels vs 1 acre covered in solar panels, the biofuels option is cheaper because land costs less than solar panels (this obviosly depends on the country where you're buying land though!)

      That said, things might change when you eventually scale up to supply energy to whole countries or the entire world :)

    122. Re:Not a replacement yet by baileydau · · Score: 1

      And petrol doesn't evaporate??

      I remember waaaaay back when I used to monitor petrol tanker discharges (ships), the evaporation losses could be in the single digit percentages in a day or two. That was our catch all excuse for why the ships figures didn't match the receiving depots figures. We "dipped" the tanks at both ends, before and after, but the receiving end always had less than the ship discharged (NB. We dipped the receiving tank a day or so before the ship started discharging for logistical reasons).

      At that time I was working in a laboratory. We used Hydrogen for various things within the lab. It certainly had "evaporation losses", which I also monitored, but I don't remember it being an order of magnitude higher than what I saw with fuel.

      --
      Ever stop to think ... and forget to start again?
    123. Re:Not a replacement yet by Calydor · · Score: 2

      WHOOSH!

      The joke is that if during night time there is no ground between your solar panels and the sun they have drifted off into space.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    124. Re:Not a replacement yet by Internetuser1248 · · Score: 2
      Forgive me if I am being over skeptical but the article claims

      This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent — a net energy gain.

      So I think it is all a load of bull shoveled by 'we want to make people feel good about owning cars' lobby. This is true for most of the hydrogen as 'alternative energy' articles that show up here every other week. Hydrogen is an energy storage medium not an energy source.

    125. Re:Not a replacement yet by CraterGlass · · Score: 1
      "Every electric car adds the equivelant of a small house to the grid."

      Actually it's more like the equivalent of adding a toaster. A basic home charger for an electric car draws about 2 kW, similar to a toaster or a kettle. Where I live, most houses have a grid connections with capacities in the range of 14 to 24 kW.

    126. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't need to be efficient, we have tons of forests that we can cut down. We also have lots of acres that we waste on worthless grasses like wheat and corn.

    127. Re:Not a replacement yet by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      It does work in cars - because the hydrogen is not stored but used directly in a fuel cell The OP did not print the full article by Virginia Tech - Dr Zhang mechanism is to use exymes to convert a feedstock to hydrogen and CO2. The enzymes would produce hydrogen in respose to the feedstock (presumably a starch and water mix) supplied from a tank that you would fill at refilling station. The hydrogen would then be piped to the fuel cell that would make electricity which would either go to a battery or woul be used to power the vehicle

    128. Re:Not a replacement yet by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      that is not the mechanism that is being developed by Dr Zhang, his methord uses a series of enzymes that breakdown a cellulose feedstock to form hydrogen - this happens at low temperature and normal pressure.

    129. Re: Not a replacement yet by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Plants have the considerable advantages of manufacturing and maintaining themselves.

      You might not want to use it for everything, but a cheap source of hydrogen from plants is likely to be useful.

    130. Re: Not a replacement yet by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I don't run my toaster constantly. If an electric car draws 2 kW for, say, 8 hours a day, it will outstrip my household electrical usage considerably.

    131. Re: Not a replacement yet by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      He didn't say solar panels. He's talking about concentrating mirrors. Yes, you can buy mirrors right now. You may not want to put the accompanying steam power plant on your roof though.

    132. Re: Not a replacement yet by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      We're not talking about growing food. We're growing biomass. You may not have ever seen a fallow field, but there are lots of things that grow quite happily with no pesticide or herbicide. You just can't eat them.

    133. Re: Not a replacement yet by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Hm... You do know how plants grow, right?

    134. Re:Not a replacement yet by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      a more truthful statement of that would be: " Warren Buffet doesn't need to follow the flow. He makes changes, the rest of the USA follows" Actually the switch to LPG started in Europe years ago around a third of fuel stations supply LPG it just the USA that is behind everyone else

    135. Re:Not a replacement yet by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      1. more transmission lines and switsching stations don't make the energy grid unstable. Your claim is nonsense.
      2. the current energy grid we have copes quite well with the losses of AC lines (did you ever google how big the loss actually is, btw?)

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    136. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      According to these specifications a taster is less than 1Kw. The Tesla Roadster, uses high-power 16.8 kW Level 2 charging station, which can charge the car in 3.5 hours. So that is like running 16 toasters continually for 3.5 hours for a total of 58.8Kwh. Assuming a toasting cycle takes 3 minutes that would make 2240 slices of toast. Few people do that.

      According to this post an average 2-story 3-bedroom house uses 50 Kwatt-hours per day. That makes the car even worse than the house as it draws more then 24 hours worth of power in 3..5 hours.

    137. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      1. More switches equals more points of failure. More transmission line equals more points of failure and more complex routing of power. Combined that equals more instability. Take a look at this graph and notice the number of abnormal re-routing and frequency fluctuations that is already growing. It is not going to get better in the future with a more complex system.
      2. Sure it works now but what happens when the demand doubles and we have to move power longer distances? Sure solar power is great but if we have to move the power from Texas to New York? AC is not going to cut it. Take a look at this chart notice how the capacity drops as the distances get larger? There is only so much generation capacity near our population centers causing us to have to draw power from further away. AC does not go far enough in many instances.

    138. Re:Not a replacement yet by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      1. More points of failure have nothing to do with frequency fluctuations ...
      2. (you linked the wrong graph?), if demand increases the power does not necessarily need to be transported further. You can upgrade current plants or simply build new plants in proximity.

      Perhaps you don't know: all europe and northern asia is interconnected in an AC grid spanning 10,000ds of miles. Sure, losses could be reduced if at least the long distance interconnects would switch to DC, but then there would be more effort to keep the grid frequency stable.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    139. Re:Not a replacement yet by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      Moving energy around through ships and pipelines would be akin to the internet running through a "vast network of little tubes." 1. The existing electrical grid has sufficient capacity to power both houses and vehicles for the foreseeable future.

      No it doesn't.

      2. Edison and Tesla argued strenuously over the advantages and disadvantages of AC vs DC for power transmission. Edison opted for DC, but lost handily because AC can be stepped up and down with transformers and is much easier to handle than DC..

      Have you got a big brain?

      Resistance loss happens regardless of DC vs AC. Both are subject to Ohm's law, E=IR. Voltage equals Current times Resistance, so the voltage drop across any conductor is equal to the current traveling through it times its resistance..

      OMG it must be a very big brain

      Energy loss in conductors is far less than the energy required to transport a similar amount using trucks, pipelines, or ships, and even that is improving as we develop better and better conductors, and eventually, superconductors which will have no loss at all.

      I think I peed myself a little

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    140. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      When points fail the ability to supply power to the lines decreases. The power companies compensate for this by changing the frequency of the AC current not the voltage. The peak voltages are the same but the frequency is different. As frequencies increase power transmitted increases. Here is a meter showing the frequency of the UK grid. Read the explanation.

      You can upgrade current plants or simply build new plants in proximity.

      Sorry but a solar farm in Minnesota would not be very effective in the winter. New green technology is quite restricted in where it can be placed. Fossil fuel powered thermal plants can be placed anywhere but we are trying to get away from that.

      Perhaps you don't know: all europe and northern asia is interconnected in an AC grid spanning 10,000ds of miles

      Considering the earth's circumference is about 24,000miles you may be exaggerating and that exaggeration is not helping your case.
      Here is a map of the European grid. The longest straight line distance is about 3,000 miles.I guess you missed the recent HVDC lines put in between the UK and continent, Africa and Europe and several connections across the Baltic.

    141. Re:Not a replacement yet by uninformedLuddite · · Score: 1

      All stations have LPG in Australia and have had it for possibly two decades or more.

      --
      The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
    142. Re:Not a replacement yet by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter whether they are practical today. The point was that the milestone had been achieved. Controlled fusion will be another milestone. Will it be practical? Probably not when first achieved. Same with matter/anti-matter energy sources. (Might as well go out on a limb)

      And those that say the possible will never happen, we present: invitro fertilization, cloning, DNA injection, quantum computers, almost successful attempts to bring back extinct species, etc. We are only at the beginning of a truly great leap in science, as long as we don't kill ourselves achieving it nor have those too scared of science do us all in.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    143. Re:Not a replacement yet by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you get a lot of stuff wrong.

      First of all, if a point fails, the houses connected to it lose power, that is all. the rest of the grid is unaffected. Usually another endpoint gets reconfigured to support that block then.

      Frequencies never change. In europe they are at 50Hz fixed and in the USA at 60. If the frequency would change the grid would break down pretty fast.

      I don't get your point about Minnesota and solar plants ... no one was talking about that. But certainly you can build a solar plant in the desert of California or the nearby Nevada.

      The largest synchronous grid is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe far more than 10.000 miles ...

      The blue lines on the map you linked, do not exist yet. In so far I did not miss anything :D (In other words: there is no africa - europe interconnection yet)

      And even if I did? What is your point? I did not claim HVDC is useless. I pointed out: AC lines are not that bad as the common people think.

      With voltages in the million volt range the loss over 5000km is perhaps 8% or so ... you can google for that or do the math your self.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    144. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      First of all, if a point fails, the houses connected to it lose power, that is all. the rest of the grid is unaffected. Usually another endpoint gets reconfigured to support that block then.

      If that point is a switching station then a lot more people will be effected. A blackout that effected most of the east coast of the US was traced back to the failure of one small relay that started a cascade failure. A similar failure was caused by the unscheduled shutdown of a power plant. You really need to have a better understanding what a point of failure is.

      Frequencies never change. In europe they are at 50Hz fixed and in the USA at 60. If the frequency would change the grid would break down pretty fast.

      Again, you need to do more research before posting. Did you even look at the meter I linked? Did you read the explanation?

      I don't get your point about Minnesota and solar plants

      Minnesota needs electricity. We are trying to use wind and solar power. It is not a great solar or wind place. Where will they get electricity? It will have to come from further away. AC does not travel long distances very well.

      The largest synchronous grid is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continental_Europe [wikipedia.org] far more than 10.000 miles ...

      Sure, if you laid every power line from end to end but the distance that electricity travels from it's source to its sink is nowhere near that. Electricity is produced close to where it is used.

      With voltages in the million volt range the loss over 5000km is perhaps 8% or so ... you can google for that or do the math your self.

      If you are only calculate resistive loss and ignore capacitive and inductive loss.
      Take a look at this chart. Notice how capacity goes down as distance gets larger. At least read Wikipedia and educate yourself about the issues of long distance AC transmission. Here's a quote;

      As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for DC electricity was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For AC it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi), though all transmission lines in use today are substantially shorter.

      Think about why the lines are shorter and you may understand

    145. Re:Not a replacement yet by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      You seem to be a player of words rather than a physician.

      If that point is a switching station then a lot more people will be effected. A blackout that effected most of the east coast of the US was traced back to the failure of one small relay that started a cascade failure. A similar failure was caused by the unscheduled shutdown of a power plant. You really need to have a better understanding what a point of failure is.

      I don't see any relation to our previous discussion. What exactly is your point?

      Again, you need to do more research before posting. Did you even look at the meter I linked? Did you read the explanation?

      I did read it. Did you? Did you understand it? Obviously you did not understand it, or you would not continue taking it as an argument.

      Explanation: if to much power is drawn, the grid frequency drops. So power plants (like coal or nuclear plants) increase steam pressure on the turbines, to increase (in fact match) their rotation speed. So they match the desired grid frequency again. (If to many consumers draw current, the turbines lose rotation speed). However you claimed: to increase power transfered you have to increase the frequency. Which is either plain wrong or misleading. Your call.

      Minnesota needs electricity. We are trying to use wind and solar power. It is not a great solar or wind place. Where will they get electricity? It will have to come from further away. AC does not travel long distances very well.

      Again this is nonsense. Where do you actually get your power from? Increase that and you are fine. (It has nothing to do with AC or DC or range or whatsoever). On top of that, Minnesota is an excellent place for solar power ... if you can not manage that you should face it: 75% of the USA is a third world country.

      Sure, if you laid every power line from end to end but the distance that electricity travels from it's source to its sink is nowhere near that. Electricity is produced close to where it is used.

      That was exactly my point! So: the losses of AC are overrated, as you usually never have so big distances. Fine that you grasped at least that
      If you are only calculate resistive loss and ignore capacitive and inductive loss.
      You don't even know what this (capacitive) means, or you would not link the wrong "graph" (mixing up capacity as in storage capacity of a capacitor/battery with transport "capability" of a power line, sigh, that is such a retarded mistake).
      At least read Wikipedia and educate yourself about the issues of long distance AC transmission.
      Sorry, I have a degree in this topic ... I don't need to read wikipedia.
      As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for DC electricity was determined to be 7,000 km (4,300 mi). For AC it was 4,000 km (2,500 mi), though all transmission lines in use today are substantially shorter.
      First of all: such nonsense is written by people like you. I doubt anyone with a degree in physics or engineering was involved in that article.
      Second: while Minnesota is big state, it is not that big. Coming back to your original argumentation. Why should it not be cost effective to import electric power (still holding up the argument, that we three posts ago only where talking about switching stations ... and the fact you claimed that more switching stations would influence grid stability/frequency) from neighbouring states that are not so far away?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    146. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      You seem to be a player of words rather than a physician.

      I don't see how being a medical doctor has anything to do with this discussion. Did you mean physicist?

      I don't see any relation to our previous discussion. What exactly is your point?

      1. more transmission lines and switsching stations don't make the energy grid unstable. Your claim is nonsense.

      My point is that each additional transmission line and switching station adds points of failure. More points of failure means more instability.

      Where do you actually get your power from? Increase that and you are fine.

      I get mine from rivers and some fossil fuel plants. Most of the usable rivers are already being used and we are trying to move away from fossil fuel plants. We need new sources to meed the demand and wind and solar sources are not everywhere.

      Minnesota is an excellent place for solar power .

      I guess you never have had to deal with snow storms.

      However you claimed: to increase power transfered you have to increase the frequency. Which is either plain wrong or misleading. Your call.

      What I meant was that to send more power down the line frequency must be increased back to the desired level not over. he point I was trying to make is that over draw of power causes frequency variations and not peak voltage variations.

      You don't even know what this (capacitive) means, or you would not link the wrong "graph" (mixing up capacity as in storage capacity of a capacitor/battery with transport "capability" of a power line, sigh, that is such a retarded mistake).

      Again you do not understand the physics of a long AC conductor. Capacitance and inductance resist the changes in voltage. As the conductor gets longer the capacitance and inductance gets larger decreasing the capacity of the conductor to transmit power. There is a physical limit to how long an AC conductor can be.

      First of all: such nonsense is written by people like you. I doubt anyone with a degree in physics or engineering was involved in that article.

      Again, you prefer to assume facts instead of actually looking them up. The Reference is to an article from the Global Energy Network Institute so your assumption is patently false.

      Why should it not be cost effective to import electric power ... from neighbouring states that are not so far away?

      Because neighboring states have similar climate issues which limit the availability of green power.

      It seems that your solution is to build more plants and transmission lines close to cities. It is not that simple to supply electricity and recuce greenhouse gasses.

    147. Re:Not a replacement yet by samwichse · · Score: 1

      All the articles on that are from 2010... yet searching for Boeing solar gives you... articles from 2010.

      Sam

    148. Re:Not a replacement yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, kudzu! Don't we love thee.

    149. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I don't need to cool my gas tank. Burning gasoline doesn't freeze the tank and cause it to become brittle.

    150. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      How so? Electricity can be stored for quite a while in lithium ion batteries. Hell I have some NiMH batteries that will retain 80% power over 3 years of shelf life and enjoy 3000 recharge cycles.

    151. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Which will run your fridge for about ten seconds.A 2 story house uses about 50Mwhrs per day. A NiMH batter is about 300 milliamphours and costs $3.39. It would take $470,000 worth of batteries to power that house for one day. Scale that up to a whole city. How would you transport those 140,000 batteries from where they are charged to where they are used? The issue is not duration it is capacity and transpotability.

    152. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Which is it, the tank needs cooling *and* heating, what, at the same time? If the H2 is stored at the same pressure (or higher) as the tank, it will be cooler in the tank as the storage, so it'll never need cooling. And the burn rate is such it will *never* freeze the tank. There are enough problems with H2 as an energy storage mechanism that you don't need to make up lies.

    153. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      And a AA lithium ion battery costs about $7-$10 but I see some on sale for $3.50 right now. I'm talking about rechargeable Li+ batteries, the same thing used in the Tesla Model S.

      I'm seeing some of these at 900mAh, while my Sanyo Eneloops are 2700mAh each and somewhat cheaper (a little under $3 each). Therefor it would take, oh, a LOT of Lithium Ion and less NiMH.

      What you have to remember is that electricity to power a city is best, most efficiently transported over large distances by HVDC power lines; while energy to power a car has to be portable and refuelable, and thus we have liquid fuels because batteries kind of suck for recharging since it takes hours. The Tesla Model S handles 500 recharge cycles (100,000 miles at 200 miles per charge is what Tesla suggests), whereas these NiMH batteries handle 3,000 recharge cycles. Lithium Ion batteries hold their charge pretty damn well and will charge a bit faster than NiMH, mind you; between that and the patents on NiMH for use in automobile-scale batteries, Li+ is the obvious choice for cars out of current battery tech.

      By the way, my two-story house uses about 400kWh per month, or 0.013MWh per day. Turn your TV off when you go to bed.

    154. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's both. When you're not drawing fuel, the tank is going to need active cooling if it's exposed to a hot summer day. When you're drawing fuel, the tank might cool very fucking fast. The tank needs to retain temperature that is not hot enough to boil the hydrogen (hint: it's always hot enough to boil the hydrogen) and not cold enough to make the metal brittle such that it shatters when you hit a speed bump at 10mph. It's a pretty narrow band and everything impacts it.

    155. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You don't need to cool it on a hot summer day. You don't need to warm it when drawing from it. I don't understand your reference to it not boiling. Aren't you keeping it in a gaseous state?

    156. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      What you have to remember is that electricity to power a city is best, most efficiently transported over large distances by HVDC power lines;

      I agree but transmission is only part of the issue. The main issue with green energy is that it is not possible to synchronize production with demand. Right now it is easy to turn up the boilers to produce more power. It is difficult to adjust the sun on demand. One of the solutions to that is to store energy and one way is to create hydrogen. Batteries won't cut it.

      By the way, my two-story house uses about 400kWh per month, or 0.013MWh per day. Turn your TV off when you go to bed.

      Is your furnace, hot water heater, cloths dryer and/or stove electric? If you are using other energy sources for that yous usage may be skewed to the lower end.

    157. Re:Not a replacement yet by Gabrill · · Score: 1

      That WHOOSH! belongs to you, Calydor.

      You should reread the comment about the large mirror.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    158. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      No, how the heck? It would be 70kg per meter cubed (i.e. 150lb for a 265 gallon tank, or 5.5lb for a 10 gallon tank) cooled to 33K. 1kg of Hydrogen has about the same energy as 1gal of gasoline: 33.4kWh. That means your 10gal liquid hydrogen tank acts as a 2.5gal gasoline tank.

      Gaseous hydrogen would be much less dense unless under extreme high pressure; that means once you raise the temperature above 33K, the pressure in the tank increases RAPIDLY and the tank explodes violently. Mind you that's 33K at the critical point with a pressure of 13.3atm or about 200PSI. The state-of-the-art for hydrogen compressed gas tanks is carbon-fiber at 5000 or 10000 PSI; while you're jabbering about how hydrogen doesn't explode because it goes up when it's released, you should realize that detonating a 60PSI tire can kill a man (stand on top a 21 inch tire you're mounting on a rim, inflate to 60psi to set the bead, and if the bead slips the tire will eject the wheel off the ground and slam your head into the ceiling 10 feet above, killing you by crushing your brain case into your brain), and people inflating bike tires to 70-90psi have gone deaf because the inner tube burst and emitted a loud bang in front of them (much less volume of gas than a car tire). If your 10,000 PSI hydrogen gas tank blows, we call that "lift-off".

      On the other hand, as you draw hydrogen out and the pressure drops (due to the partial pressure of hydrogen, because even at 33K the tank's not going to be filled with vacuum), some of the hydrogen will boil, causing rapid cooling, making the tank brittle. If you're working with gaseous hydrogen this will also occur.

      So in summary: You need to keep the tank fucking cold, or at extremely high pressure. In either case, you don't want the tank to warm up because pressure will increase rapidly. You also don't want the tank to self-cool as you draw off fuel, because it will freeze the material and cause the tank to become brittle, which can lead to catastrophic failure.

    159. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The discussion was about cars, not powering your house. Cars are powered by batteries or liquid fuel. Electricity is highly transportable, which is where your original argument was; electricity storage units are more difficult, but better than hydrogen. Not as good as diesel or gasoline. As for "green" energy, why can't we supplement baseline with it anyway, and use it to pump extra water into water towers which then allow us to spin down water pumps for a time? Electric motors scale back readily enough, and we can target our grid that way... hmm.

      I'm going to switch from nat-gas to a heat pump for heating. Dual stage compressor to cut back on my energy usage from gas, which is at 170 therms for January (yes that's 5,000kWh). Estimates for the heat pump to do the same job are about 250-350kWh. 70 therm for the surrounding months, so my total energy usage should drop substantially.

      By the way, that's still 5MWh per month or 0.17MWh per day, not 50MWh.

    160. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So in summary: You need to keep the tank fucking cold, or at extremely high pressure. In either case, you don't want the tank to warm up because pressure will increase rapidly. You also don't want the tank to self-cool as you draw off fuel, because it will freeze the material and cause the tank to become brittle, which can lead to catastrophic failure.

      Go back to your example of a tank under high pressure. Now let out H2 at a rate equivalent to average gasoline use. What's the rate at which the tank cools? I'll give you a hint, it's not fast. And cooling the tank won't cause brittle. You are complaining about the materials in a non-existent tank based on a non-understanding of H2 causing metal to be brittle (otherwise, you wouldn't be asserting that temperature has anything to do with it).

      That and this or any other replacement for gasoline has always been assumed to be at room temperature. If you have to keep your H2 at 33K at all times, you'll spend more energy keeping you tank cool overnight than you save by using H2 in the first place. That would be stupid. You are deliberately asserting a false requirement, then attacking the false requirement that you and only you assigned to it. You are winning an argument with yourself, but nobody else is buying it.

    161. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      If you look at the third post in the thread you would see how the topic changed. Pumped hydrofrom water towers has been looked into and found to be not feasible as the volumes are just not there.

      For example, 1000 kilograms of water (1 cubic meter) at the top of a 100 meter tower has a potential energy of about 0.272 kWh

      To power a house for a day would require 183 cubic meters of water in a 100 foot tower. That's a lot of water

      By the way, that's still 5MWh per month or 0.17MWh per day, not 50MWh.

      According to researchers the average is 50 KWh. Sorry, I made a typing mistake but my calculations were based on 50 KWhrs.

    162. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Let out the H2 at a rate equivalent to 4 times the average gasoline use, since LIQUID H2 is 1/4 as energy-dense per volume as gasoline. For high-pressure gaseous H2 it's going to be much faster.

      Assuming your H2 tank is at room temperature, it's going to be under 10,000PSI of pressure. This is a real thing. If you rupture that tank, it's going to explode. The surface area of that tank times 10,000 pounds is the amount of force it's going to explode with. That's a lot more than 60psi launching a beer can. Almost but not quite 200 times as much force.

      When it's 106F outside, how do you keep your tank from reaching 106F and spiking to 30,000PSI or 50,000PSI?

    163. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Pumped hydro is the perfect way to go with excess energy from intermittent power sources though. You could turn down the pumps (consuming electricity) and instead drive YOUR pumps drive the water system, and pump water into towers. Granted a water tower only holds oh 1800 cubic meters of water, but when the towers are full you can still do all the pumping for the city if you have that much excess electricity and demand isn't growing. Turn down the usage of those water pumps and turn up the usage of the pumps right at the turbine. Drain the towers at night and when they're low you turn the pumps back up to full output. You might be surprised.

      50kWh is more reasonable.

    164. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Let out the H2 at a rate equivalent to 4 times the average gasoline use, since LIQUID H2 is 1/4 as energy-dense per volume as gasoline. For high-pressure gaseous H2 it's going to be much faster.

      I said "at a rate equivalent to average gasoline use" I already took into account energy density in my wording. That you choose to ignore reality to continue your emotional and fact-less rant against H2 indicates there is nothing I can say that will get you to listen.

    165. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Granted a water tower only holds oh 1800 cubic meters of water,

      that is only 1800*0.272= 490Kwhrs and that is with 100% efficient generators. That is not much energy. According to this paper a highrise can darw up to 150,000 Kwhrs/month or 5,000Kwhrs per day. Take a third of that and one gets 1667 Kwhrs for night. Which would require three and a half water towers for just one high rise. Scale that up to a whole city and you can see that hundreds of water towers are not feasible.

    166. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      No, but you don't need to bulk battery them. During the peak times when energy is being used and your wind farm is turning, there is no storage. You supply power. During off peak, you can supply the water to drive the water pumps. Fill the towers, then drive municipal pumping. Drain the towers as you start to lag, and spin up the municipal pumps again putting demand back on the grid.

      My thinking is it's hard to sharply spin coal plants up/down to meet varying demand, and demand is not something you control. But we can control demand, can't we? We have water pumping infrastructure that supplies a constant demand baseline. We can use the excess wind energy to power the pumps, spinning down the baseline generators. When the wind power is not so great, we have big water towers that keep the pressure going, and we reduce the load from the water pumps on the grid to make up for the wind power not being big enough and thus prevent brown-outs; and while that's keeping up with the demand, we have plenty of time to steadily raise baseline power plant output to power the water pumps again.

      It's a lot of coordination though.

    167. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You underestimate the consumption. 4.4L/100km at 1kph for gasoline. For hydrogen it's 17.6L/100km, on the highway... christ. That's a lot. It's going to do exactly what ninja air does when you spray out your keyboard, but much colder. Think how fast those cans get cold. 5.5mL per second just about? Give it 30-45 seconds to get colder than Alton Brown's freezer (-27 degrees. Kelvin.)

      If we were sitting in Huston at NASA central command, someone would probably actually tell you to squeeze the trigger on your canned air just about 1/4 of the way to get a slow, steady hiss, and watch how much longer it takes for the can to frost. Which is like, a minute.

    168. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      You continue to miss the point about pumped hydro. It requires massive amounts of water and or height. To make it useful one would need to move millions of gallons of water. Water towers are just not going to cut it.

    169. Re:Not a replacement yet by AK+Marc · · Score: 1
      A tank at 10,000 psi holds about 667 liter of H2 per liter tank. 17.6L/100km (at, lets say, 100 km/h) means 17.6/667 = 2% drain per hour. That's not going to generate much chill.

      Give it 30-45 seconds to get colder than Alton Brown's freezer (-27 degrees. Kelvin.)

      So, running an H2 car for 45 seconds will cause the tank to reach -27K. Why bother with all the super-cooling solutions when they can get to -27 K with a little outgassing.

      I read some reviews of H2 powered vehicles, and there were no problems you assert must happen. Reality proves you wrong. You tried to generalize your experience with canned air, but failed to scale. set your can to 2% leak per second and see how long it takes to frost. Now, engineer it well and have it attached to a heat sink (since it will heat more rapidly on fill than it will chill on emptying) and see what happens. It'll be the least interesting thing you've ever seen.

    170. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You continue to miss the point. I'm not talking about pumping hydro to store electricity; I'm talking about going to a big thing that consumes electricity (Water pumps) and backing off the throttle so they consume less electricity. When the wind farm can't satisfy the water pumps, scale the pumps back; the water towers WILL supply enough water for several hours of water pressure, during which time you can raise your baseline energy by burning more coal, and get the water pumps back to full capacity.

      What do you imagine water towers are for?

    171. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Nope, not correct. The numbers at 10,000 PSI are worthless, because the density numbers I'm using for fuel ENERGY DENSITY per volume assume liquid hydrogen, which is more dense. Liquid hydrogen at 33K supplies as much energy per 1 gallon as liquid gasoline supplies per 4 gallons. Gaseous hydrogen at 10,000PSI supplies less, but I don't know how much less so I just work off the liquid hydrogen numbers which are more liberal and assume that you get more energy out of this than you really do.

      It's not 17.6L/667. It's plain old 17.6L OF LIQUID HYDROGEN. Which by the way when you consider the air flow... from 10,000PSI at 5.5mL/s that would be 3.6L of hydrogen per second at atmospheric pressure using your numbers (a lot of hydrogen). Of course my numbers assume liquid hydrogen, which is more dense, so.. damn that's a lot of flow.

      And if you out-gas fuel, you lose fuel. If you burn fuel to maintain temperature, you lose fuel. So you're arguing that hydrogen is superior because we can put a hole in the gas tank and constantly leak fuel to keep the tank cold so it doesn't explode? Works for NASA but really, they accept the costs too.

    172. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Can you show me figures supporting the idea that water pumps use a significant portion of electricity in cities, how much water is actually used per hour, etc. Until you have those numbers and calculated saving are theoretical at best. What you propose is actually already done in large buildings as many have a reservoir on the top floor so deal with fluctuations in demand. If water pumps use 5% of electricity in a city and we can even cut that in half that is only 2.5% of energy usage.

      What is needed is the ability of storing at least four hours of demand to be a significant impact on reducing the need for fossil fuel power plants. The short term fluctuations you are referring to are already dealt with by capacitors and flywheels which are even more responsive than pumped hydro.

    173. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The whole "Earth Day" thing is bogus because it increases emissions. Turning off the lights doesn't relieve enough demand for the coal plants to throttle back; worse, when everything comes back on, the sudden spike in demand can (and often does) result in coal plants spinning up hard if they did throttle back, so you save a pound of CO2 output and then burn a ton just to get back up to speed to match demand.

      Fluctuation in demand is not helpful. If we scale back the coal plants when the wind plants are big (thus supplying power to the grid, thus reducing the demand on the coal plants), then we wind up burning more fuel to get back up to speed when the wind plants have no wind suddenly. Small towns store about a day's worth of water in water towers, and can run for 24 hours without pumps. That gives plenty of time to slowly, efficiently ramp up the coal plant with the water pump after the wind power to drive the water infrastructure suddenly cuts out and the pumps have to scale back and idle at 5% capacity to avoid causing a brown-out. Rather than suddenly burning shitloads of coal to rev up those turbines, we suddenly use that much less electricity and slowly, gently bring the plant back online.

      Pump water can be about 4%. California uses 19% of its power to mess with water, including heating water, irrigating cropland, industrial uses, etc. 22% of that is just water transfer, distribution, and pumping, which is a little over 4% of total electrical energy usage. Baltimore City has 14 coal plants, the largest of which is 2400GW; 4% of just that plant would be almost 100GW. I am confident that the total supply of clean-air variable energy sources is not big enough to drive the waterworks of the state of California; and that the fluctuation in power drain would be significant if the waterworks could be idled quite low for 4-24 hours while the coal and oil plants gently accelerate instead of inefficiently rolling up a shitload of fuel.

    174. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      You are still thinking too small scale.

      4% of just that plant would be almost 100GW.

      At 0.272 Kwhrs per cubic meter of water at 100 feet that would be 367,648 cubic meters of water to supply one hour of that power. Do you see the problem?

    175. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's a lot of water to supply the power to run the pumps to pump NEW water. This water has already been pumped. A good electric motor is 70% efficient, so you need at most 0.49 times that much water (we're double-dipping here: You lose 30% in the first place to store, and then if you retrieved to convert into electricity to drive pumps you'd lose 30% again; we're bypassing that). That doesn't account for inefficiencies in the system--for the difficulty posed by pumping water long distances, incurring losses because of conversion of compressive and friction forces to heat and dissipation throughout the system (longer pipes means more loss this way) and due to the nature of trying to pump a fluid liquid in the first place.

      Further, towers are extremely effective at storing water pressure--a high tower requires so much ground-level pressure to pump water up to it in the first place, and at the ground level that water will supply the same exact amount of pressure at 100% efficiency (i.e. if it takes 100PSI to get it up there, it's going to push down at ground level at 100PSI). Pumping water up against gravity, however, is inefficient: the higher you go, the slower the water moves in the whole system.

      So 36,000 cubic meters of water to supply one hour of power if we're down to 10% efficiency. At the most, 180,000 cubic meters--49%. Again, smaller cities supply 24 hours of water pressure stored in towers.

    176. Re:Not a replacement yet by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So 36,000 cubic meters of water to supply one hour of power if we're down to 10% efficiency. At the most, 180,000 cubic meters--49%. Again, smaller cities supply 24 hours of water pressure stored in towers.

      Which may at most relieve 5% of the city's power usage. It is a drop in the bucket. It is a complex plan for little gain. What I was talking about was the ability to store GWhrs of electricity so that the lights stay on.

    177. Re:Not a replacement yet by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I am talking about the ability to actually scale power down when it dips, instead of suddenly ramping it up hard. Did you not get the memo?

      The plants spin down when load reduces. Eventually. When load comes back, they come back up. If we have a 4% load spike, the plants will compensate by raging hard, mostly pumping out waste heat that's not being converted into electricity, to get the turbines up to speed more quickly. It's like how when you get on the highway your 30mpg econoshitbox is getting 4mpg coming up the merge lane with the engine roaring.

      Instead, I want to spin down the pumps to very low (just idle at a speed that lets you spin the pumps back up without putting load on the starter coil or wearing down the motor life significantly--you don't want to start-stop the motors a lot, but you can declutch them or shift the CVT ratio and let them spin on no load!), and let the water towers supply water pressure. Then let the plant bring up power production gracefully to cover the demand, burning less fuel in the process (gentle acceleration). Then spin the pumps back up.

      As an extension, RELY ON WIND POWER TO SUPPLY BASE LOAD POWER. We can't do that now because wind and solar can go from 100MW overproduction to 5mW depending on which direction the wind blows (literally). If we need 500GW and we have 10GW of wind and 30GW of solar and 475GW of coal, and the wind shifts and pushes the clouds in the way of the sun, you now have 490GW total production and you get a brown-out and the coal plant hauls ass. Instead, let the wind plant 95% cover municipal water needs as baseload power. If they suddenly can't, back the waterworks down and let the water towers take over; raise the coal output gently to avoid burning excess coal.

      It's a start, and it's small; but wind and solar supply are also small. This should let us handle 5% fluctuations without being so wasteful, though. Think of it like a hybrid system that uses a more efficient but more difficult to store fuel source to accelerate. Like the water towers are batteries. Accelerating a car is hard, burns a lot of gas; bolt in an electric motor and let the alternator charge up a storage cell though, and when you hit the gas hard it powers up the motor and the engine just has to idle. Electric motors are much more efficient at translating a lot of power into a lot of torque, whereas chemical fuels produce a lot of waste heat to generate high amounts of torque (this is obvious, because the chemical fuel is going to burn more fuel, then exhaust the hot gas before it's transferred its energy out as motion).

  2. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the difficulties of bringing ethanol to market cheaply added to the engineering problems of fuel cells.
    Brilliant!

  3. Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Meh it sounds nice but unfortunately the big oil companies will bury this so deep no one will think about it for the next 50-60 years minimum.

    1. Re:Meh by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      I am sure big oil would gladly shift to a new technology.
      Here is the problem...
      Gasoline offers the following advantages. High Energy Density. Can be stored and shipped easily, relativity safe (compared to other that would kill you at the first smell or explode more violently) Doesn't require a high infrastructure to deal with.

      Now if we can get Hydrogen cheap and fuel cells cheap enough to make affordable cars that people will buy. I can see the big oil companies starting to shift to the hydrogen market. They already have ways of shipping, and retailers for their product. They will just switch products.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm sure you may be right to some extent, but you forget.... oil companies have a lot of money invested in more than just storage and shipping. they have big giant "oil rigs". if they just "switched products" they'd have to find a way to actually GET the new product, and leaving their billions of dollars worth of oil-based equipment behind is not something they will do easily.

    3. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm starting to think that the best way to store energy is to make our own long-chain hydrocarbons. Use solar, wind, nuclear, whatever to power a facility that takes coal and water as inputs and gives various lengths of hydrocarbon and oxygen as outputs.

      (basic model: break the water, release the mostly-oxygen side, put hydrogen and powdered coal in a properly balanced pressure chamber, harness various lengths of hydrocarbon and use them as they are good for)

    4. Re:Meh by onyxruby · · Score: 2

      Big oil already owns many of the worlds top green energy companies. For example BP has been one of the top producers of solar cells for many years. Your ire would be better directed at those actually putting up road blocks to green energy.

      Energy companies are in the business of selling energy, and frankly they typically don't care what that source of energy is. Most companies sell gas, propane, diesel, and natural gas at a minimum and many have business relationships that go far beyond that.

    5. Re:Meh by fustakrakich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Doesn't require a high infrastructure to deal with.

      You ever seen a refinery? The infrastructure for gas and food is actually very fragile. We're pretty lucky that everybody gets along so well to make it work.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    6. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...compared to other that would kill you at the first smell...

      Uh... such as? Are you hinting at hydrogen?

    7. Re:Meh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i'm sure you may be right to some extent, but you forget.... oil companies have a lot of money invested in more than just storage and shipping. they have big giant "oil rigs". if they just "switched products" they'd have to find a way to actually GET the new product, and leaving their billions of dollars worth of oil-based equipment behind is not something they will do easily.

      What, do you think people would 'just switch' to Hydrogen cars overnight? They would wind down their petroleum exploration as the economic incentive to do so wound down. That equipment is all on a depreciation schedule, anyways.

  4. Really? by slashkitty · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I find it very hard to believe that they are somehow going to get more energy out of plant matter than biodiesel or simply burning it. Hydrogen may be clean, but it's certainly not convenient. I my area, they can run cars on trash. Trash is burned in a Waste-to-Energy facility, and cars are recharged from the electricty.

    --
    -- these are only opinions and they might not be mine.
    1. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, basic understanding of thermodynamics fail.

    2. Re:Really? by felipekk · · Score: 2

      Even more unbelievable (at least for a "layman" like me) is this claim:

      "Even more appealing, this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent — a net energy gain."

    3. Re:Really? by m2shariy · · Score: 1

      So they discovered that the first law of thermodynamics is not working anymore? Perpetuum mobile is the next step!

    4. Re:Really? by jxander · · Score: 1

      The "more than 100 percent" claim is a bit strange, but might just be poor syntax. Perhaps they meant a more than 100% gain vs simply burning, or just classify biodesel as the 100% starting point, so a 10% increase means we are actually giving 110%

      As for the low temperature bit, isn't that exactly what the first law of thermodynamics dictates? Energy can't simply be created, so the total amount of energy produced will always be constant. If we lost less energy to heat, more energy would be converted to force, or some other part of the reaction

      --
      This signature is false.
    5. Re:Really? by smg5266 · · Score: 2

      Not so fast, heat pumps have an effective efficiency higher than 100% (in reality it's because it takes some energy from the surroundings). I suspect something similar here.

    6. Re:Really? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      You are being a little bit pedantic. They are referring to usable energy inputs / usable energy outputs.

      As a counter example, look at ethanol. It requires a lot of cooking with natural gas to convert corn into a usable fuel. I have heard arguments that it would be more efficient to run cars on natural gas. (I don’t think that is true anymore – ethanol production can become a lot more efficient.)

    7. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty sure they mean that some of the heat applied to the reaction (by 'low' temperature they still mean well above room temp.) also ends up as stored energy in the released hydrogen.

    8. Re:Really? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      The point is, biodiesel burns dirty and is inefficient. We can burn hydrogen at almost 100% efficiency. The reaction in which they turn the plant material into hydrogen likely happens in a closed cycle. The entire reaction is contained. So they could cycle through the same material several times to get the most out of it. Where-as, with diesel, you combine it with ambient air that's and an unknown temperature, moisture and oxygen content, light it and hope for the best.

    9. Re:Really? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      No, it's because they're pumps. You can create water, or you can use an Archmedes screw. One of these is easier.

    10. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What's so confusing about that? You're not taking out energy out of xylose and converting it into hydrogen, you're splitting water molecules to produce hydrogen, using energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. So all it says is water has more energy stored in hydrogen atoms than xylose and the polyphosphate combined, which is not that surprising.

      Think of it as cutting a cord that holds the arm of a catapult, with a hatchet. If I release a projectile from the catapult with my tiny hatchet, and the projectile levels an entire castle, does that mean my hatchet has enough energy to level a castle and then some? No, what it means is that I get a net gain of energy by using less energy to release more energy. It's not exactly rocket science.

    11. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Even more appealing, this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent — a net energy gain."

      It's a botched deltaG versus deltaH comparison. Due to the extra entropy resulting from release of gaseous compounds, you get more free energy than the typical "embodied energy" figures you'd use for the energy (enthalpy) of the starting compounds.

      I'd note that the article itself makes no such outrageous claims (though it mentions the entropy/enthalpy issues) - the "more than 100%" claim was likely introduced because of miscommunications with the journalists doing the write-up.

    12. Re:Really? by Streetlight · · Score: 1

      But we're stuck with the second law of thermodynamics. The reason combustion engine automobiles have radiators is that not all the chemical potential energy in gasoline cannot be converted into the work of moving the car down the road. In order to get more work done per mass of fuel by raising the efficiency of the combustion-to-work process would require raising the temperature of the combustion process, but then the engines might melt. The 2nd law and its consequences is one of the most subtle laws of nature unlike the 1st law.

      --
      In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
    13. Re:Really? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      The "more than 100 percent" claim is a bit strange, but might just be poor syntax.

      Yes, it is poor syntax, but if you RTFA, it is fairly clear what they mean. The process is endothermic, and occurs at temperatures in excess of 122F (50C). So the process could be driven using waste heat from some other process, or from cheap solar-thermal energy, and a portion of this heat is converted to chemical energy. So no law of thermodynamics is violated, and converting low grade heat to useful energy is a benefit.

    14. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, creating water is easy and can be done with minimal materials and no tools.

      Making an Archimedes screw to pump water is much more difficult, it takes tools and quite a bit of work and materials.

    15. Re:Really? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      IIUC that "more than 100%" means that they're getting more (measured) energy out than they are putting in. (They talk about using low temperature process heat in the next sentence...so they are adding energy to make the reaction go.)

      In other words, I don't think it's unbelievable, I just don't think it means what you imply that you think it means. My guess is that they aren't measuring the energy stored in the xylose, only the energy that they are adding to make the reaction go.

      My main wonder is how long does the "enzyme cocktail" last. Also the article is full of cautionary words indicating that the process is not yet practical outside of a laboratory.

      So I find it interesting and promissing, but it's not clear that it will be commercially feasible. They project commercial release within 3 years, which seems to mean that some problems remain. If we don't see this being marketed within 8 years I would guess that they ran into some problem that they haven't solved.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    16. Re:Really? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Burning hydrogen, except in an Oxygen stream, produces LOTS of nitrous and nitric pollutants. It's also at a remarkably high temperature, which means you need exotic materials for engine components, and they STILL wear out fast.

      This is why hydorgen is normally used via fuel cells. But I believe that all currently available fuel cells use platinum based catalysts. (There are more recent catalysts, but IIUC they are still only used in prototypes.)

      FWIW, we already have theives stealing mufflers for the platinum catalyst that they contain to process the exhaust. Platinum is hideously expensive, so we want to avoid using it whenever possible.

      OTOH, it's quite possible that non-platinum fuel cells will be available soon. Probably before this process is commercially available. Or perhaps super-capacitors will experience a breakthrough, and make it reasonable to power the cars electrically. (Dependance on batteries is the current weak spot of electric cars. Capacitors can be charged quickly and repeatedly.) In that case the hydorgen could be converted to electricty at a stationary installation, with the higher efficiency that that would permit.

      Hydrogen as a fuel has many features that make it unsatisfactory. It's low energy per cc, e.g. So you either need to liquify it or store it under immense pressure, both of which are expensive to deal with, or put up with a need to refuel frequently. And it tends to leak...which can be dangerous as well as decreasing efficiency.

      A third possibility is to use it as the input to making a synthetic liquid fuel. This, again, would be done at a stationary site, so wouldn't have the same constraints as would a mobile platform. I'm not sure what the current efficiencies are, or what improvements can be expected in the near term future.

      So I don't see this as some "magic bullet", but rather as a useful component of a more complex solution.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:Really? by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 1

      That sentence was badly written. This is what I think they were trying to say: you put in both chemical energy (in the sugar) and thermal energy, and get out chemical energy (hydrogen gas). The amount of chemical energy you get out is greater than the amount of chemical energy you put in. The excess came from the thermal energy you put in. The reference to driving it with low temperature waste heat in the next sentence supports this interpretation.

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
    18. Re:Really? by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      Zhang is not proposing to make and store the hydrogen according to the article at virginia tech the enzyme series cracks the cellulose to hydrogen and co2 the hydrogen being used immediatly in the fuel cell

    19. Re:Really? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      But currently that means using Platinum. Which is unsustainable, except perhaps for stationary installations.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  5. How is this a win? by Joce640k · · Score: 0

    If I'm reading it correctly, it converts xylose energy into hydrogen energy with a net gain, but you'll still need a massive amount of xylose from somewhere for it to be useful. Presumably xylose production needs energy, if only for harvesting+transportation.

    How does this solve any problems?

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:How is this a win? by Coreigh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The majority of input energy would be solar, growing the plants. the machinery used to harvest and transport it wouild run on electriciy and fuel cells just like everything else. It is just a matter of A) generating enough plant matter, and B) getting the infrastructure to critical mass to become sel sustaining.

      Sure, it sounds far fetched. But hey, you have to start some where some time. Right?

      --



      "Waitress I need two more boat-drinks..."
    2. Re:How is this a win? by geek · · Score: 1

      "Xylose is otherwise pervasive, being found in the embryos of most edible plants"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylose

      Doesn't seem to be an issue.

    3. Re:How is this a win? by chill · · Score: 2

      Xylose is otherwise pervasive, being found in the embryos of most edible plants.

      Well, that should be enough information to trigger the food crops/fuel crops flame-warriors for the next few years.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:How is this a win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Presumably xylose production needs energy, if only for harvesting+transportation.

      How does this solve any problems?

      Hmm.. perhaps because harvesting and transporting plants might be easier than harvesting and transporting coal or uranium? But I'm really no expert...

    5. Re:How is this a win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ate some Del Taco burritos last night, and the massive outgassing of hydrogen from my ass confirms xylose presence in beans.

    6. Re:How is this a win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't say embryos too loudly....

    7. Re:How is this a win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy shit dude. That's as bad as the argument that since the truck that delivers fuel burns fuel to deliver it to you, that the whole thing is crazy and pointless.

      Get this: while it takes energy to get and deliver the fuel, there's still a net gain.

    8. Re:How is this a win? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot fertilizer and pesticides, both of which we make from fossil fuels. Plants don't just grow from sunlight, not in the volume that this process would require to be net energy positive.

  6. It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by thomasdz · · Score: 0

    It's HELIUM that we really need. that stuff is going to be pretty scarce in a hundred years.

    --
    Karma: Excellent. 15 moderator points expire sometime.
    1. Re:It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because you can drive your car and heat your home using helium.

    2. Re:It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but you can cool an MRI and safely lift airships with it. There are probably a number of other applications for which He is particularly well suited that I'm just not aware of.

      We can probably make it in a fusion reactor (doesn't have to be gaining energy, just fusing H), or collect it as a byproduct from various other types of heavy metal reactors. That's expensive and dangerous though. We might get more supply from all this gas fracking. Gas usually has some He in it.

    3. Re:It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by sanosuke001 · · Score: 1

      And all those superconducting materials are cooled with ice cubes and happy thoughts.

      --
      -SaNo
    4. Re:It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      I think that high temperature superconductors are making their way into MRI machines. And while I think blimps are cool there is not much of a market today.

      Silicon chips is the industry that you are looking for – lots of helium goes into making computer chips.

    5. Re:It's too bad we can't do this with Helium by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      You can safely lift airships with Hydrogen.

  7. Late April Fools Day? by bradgoodman · · Score: 1

    Is it just me - or are all these "miracle science" posts today making me feel like it's April Fool's day or something???

  8. Oh Noes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What are the people who blow off alternative fuels "because they're mostly made from petroleum so why bother converting to use them" going to bitch about now?

    1. Re:Oh Noes! by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The fact that hydrogen embrittles metal, it has very low energy density by volume, and is an unholy pain in the ass to handle. Are those enough problems to start with?

      Here is another, fuel cells that use it require platinum series metals which are very expensive.

  9. monthly hydrogen perpetual motion posting by peter303 · · Score: 0

    "nothing to see here. move on"
    I wonder what happend to the past 20 or so "free hydrogen" breakthroughs posted in Slashdot through the years.

    1. Re:monthly hydrogen perpetual motion posting by tech.kyle · · Score: 1

      True. It seems almost everyone confuses "free energy" with "can not see where the energy is coming from".

      --
      If we colonize Mars, it won't be the World Wide Web anymore. UWW?
  10. but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought Hydrogen is difficult to contain since it is so tiny(molecularly speaking). Seems like it could be a hassle to facilitate storage and distribution?

    1. Re:but... by Stormthirst · · Score: 1

      Also petroleum is a surprisingly stable product considering what we use it for.

      You'd have to store it another form - make it safer and easier to transport

    2. Re:but... by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      I thought Hydrogen is difficult to contain since it is so tiny(molecularly speaking). Seems like it could be a hassle to facilitate storage and distribution?

      Well, if they can make the xylose reaction happen quickly enough, it does mean that we can store xylose and biomass and convert it to hydrogen on the fly, avoiding the safe transport and storage issues. That's about the only possible gain I can see out of this (other than the scientific gains of being able to more intentionally shift atoms).

  11. Dupe by Anonyme+Connard · · Score: 1

    http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/03/30/0312223/new-catalyst-allows-cheaper-hydrogen-production

    1. Re:Dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nope it isn't
      check the sources
      their both about making cheap hydrogen but the one you reference is from the University of Calgary whilst Zhang is at virginia Tech
      both solutions are very exciting - a french company is building a enzyme production plant in virginia - so the enzymes could well be on stream with 3 years.

    2. Re:Dupe by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      nope it isn't check the sources their both about making cheap hydrogen but the one you reference is from the University of Calgary whilst Zhang is at virginia Tech both solutions are very exciting - a french company is building a enzyme production plant in virginia - so the enzymes could well be on stream with 3 years.

  12. I hope they make a fortune by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Since the university seems dead set on building buildings all over campus at a cost of $1000/sq ft they're gonna need some real big donors to step up for the naming rights!

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  13. more energy than what is stored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Generating more energy than what is stored. Something doesn't sound right.

    "....this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent — a net energy gain..."
    Read more at http://scienceblog.com/62111/game-changer-in-alternatve-energy/#mbXlPcht0TwS6F0L.99

  14. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article says, "this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate".

    Either that is a very poorly written sentence, or the researchers have managed to accomplish the impossible.

  15. Going Green by a_big_favor · · Score: 1

    *puts on sunglasses* I guess they took "Green" energy a little too literally!

  16. Was this from April 1? by blastum · · Score: 1

    The article alternately says the energy comes from splitting hydrogen and from xylose. Which? The article says it produces no greenhouse gasses. What happens to the carbon then? The article says it produces more energy than the chemical energy of the components. Uh huh.

    1. Re:Was this from April 1? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Splitting hydrogen is hard.

    2. Re:Was this from April 1? by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      LOL hell even fuzing it is hard enough

  17. Think bigger by arcite · · Score: 1

    Hydrogen can be used to create clean electricity....which charges the car's batteries.

    1. Re:Think bigger by icebike · · Score: 1

      Why not just burn the hydrogen and forget the batteries?
      Think smaller.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Think bigger by afidel · · Score: 1

      Because storing Hydrogen is a real bitch, storing it in a useful volume much more so.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:Think bigger by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Why not just burn the hydrogen and forget the batteries?
      Think smaller.

      Burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is about 15% efficient.
      Using hydrogen in a fuel cell + electric engine is about 60% efficient.
      Think smarter.

    4. Re:Think bigger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just burn the hydrogen and forget the batteries?

      Uh ... because of the Hindenburg?

  18. another typical anti-science post by arcite · · Score: 1

    on slashdot...a sign of the times.

  19. Bah, negative perspective by Ravaldy · · Score: 1

    It's another step towards haversting hydrogen. The biggest issue is making it renewable. This allows for renewability.There's always a cost to getting energy out of something. Even solar has a high cost per KW if you start including the cost of manufacturing the actual panel cost, it's inability to be ported...

  20. Almost no zero greenhouse gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anybody else wonder what almost no zero is?

    1. Re:Almost no zero greenhouse gas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the paper's abstract: "xylose was converted into H2 and CO2 with approaching 100% of the theoretical yield." So nearly all the carbon in xylose is converted to carbon dioxide and this is characterized as "almost no greenhouse gasses". What could be further from the truth?

    2. Re:Almost no zero greenhouse gas by WillgasM · · Score: 1

      But the net is close to zero. All that carbon came from the atmosphere in the first place.

  21. Efficiency more than 100 percent by Qwertie · · Score: 4, Funny

    TFA says "Even more appealing, this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent â" a net energy gain." Truly we will have to reexamine the laws of thermodynamics in light of this discovery!

    1. Re:Efficiency more than 100 percent by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      They're just talking about energy in vs energy out.

      Otherwise, you might want to report those 18 SEER AC units too.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  22. Not to worry by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    It's HELIUM that we really need. that stuff is going to be pretty scarce in a hundred years.

    Not to worry, when you want a high-squeaky voice a hundred years hence, you'll just go down to the local PartyTime store and pay someone to kick you in the nads.

    P.S. if you are female, also do not worry - in 100 years there will also be a "Nads For a Day" rental store you can visit first.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Not to worry by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Not to worry, when you want a high-squeaky voice a hundred years hence, you'll just go down to the local PartyTime store and pay someone to kick you in the nads.

      No, you'll just walk outside and siphon some gas out of someone's hydrogen vehicle. You'll get an even better squeaky voice, but don't want to do this around anyone who smokes, or owns a lighter

      On the other hand... "Hey, Kendall, that was a neat way to change your voice. Do it again." <sound of flicking bic> <sound of exploding Kendall>

  23. Bring back hemp! by WillgasM · · Score: 1

    So we can finally make cars that run on marijuana trimmings! We just need to get enough various, concerted industries to team up and choke off Big Oil. Can't you just smell that paradigm shifting.

  24. Accounting of all input sources of energy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The claim "generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate" is interesting, but it is not a true comparison of energy in to energy out. First of all, the reaction does not happen at room temperature but instead at 122 degree Fahrenheit. So that input energy is has not been counted. Second, one has to produce or extract those enzymes and that costs energy. Perhaps one batch can be used repeatedly, but not forever so there is some energy required. Either all these additional sources pushes the efficiency below 100% or it is a fantasy (beyond perpetual motion, infinite energy from a finite source).

    Even if you take those additional input sources into account, I am skeptical the situation is a wonderful as the story implies. Let's see some other labs reproduce the result first before getting too excited.

    1. Re:Accounting of all input sources of energy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree completely. I looked up Dr. Zhang and he appears to have more than 100 peer-reviewed articles to his name. But those "peer-reviewed journals" are garbage like International Journal of Energy Research and Analytical Biochemistry, and this gem the Journal of Applied Microbiology. This guy is a hack. I'd tell you exactly where he fails, so hard, but I can't be bothered to read ANYTHING BUT A BLURB FROM A SCIENCE BLOG!

      Jesus, the guy has stellar credentials a mile long and the Slashdot tard wagon arrives to tear him down using scienceblog and completely ignoring the actual paper. I'm sure Dr. Zhang earned his tenure at Virginia Tech by ignoring the basic laws of thermodynamics.

  25. energy positive; storage friendly by condition-label-red · · Score: 1

    From the article, it seems this is an energy positive process:

    The energy stored in xylose splits water molecules, yielding high-purity hydrogen that can be directly utilized by proton-exchange membrane fuel cells. Even more appealing, this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent â" a net energy gain. That means that low-temperature waste heat can be used to produce high-quality chemical energy hydrogen for the first time. Other processes that convert sugar into biofuels such as ethanol and butanol always have energy efficiencies of less than 100 percent, resulting in an energy penalty.

    Also it is suited for use in a fuel cell. One possible automotive implementation might be: a slurry of plant matter + enzymes => hydrogen + fuel cell => electricity => electric motors. This would avoid the hydrogen storage issues and provide an easily stored (i.e. slurry) energy source.

    Hmm....

    --
    Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit.
  26. I must be old. by BLToday · · Score: 1

    Been hearing this for so long that I think I'll be dead long before hydrogen or nuclear fusion is commercially viable.

    1. Re:I must be old. by Medievalist · · Score: 1

      Been hearing this for so long that I think I'll be dead long before hydrogen or nuclear fusion is commercially viable.

      Maybe the idea is that in the meantime you won't be wondering why we don't just use sustainable biofuels that could easily be made commercially viable today, if we just redirected the tax dollars being continuously spent to prop up the petrofuel, nuclear and war industries.

      But hey, if we went with distributed agriculturally produced energy there would be a lot less concentrated oil wealth available to buy "luggage lifters" and "entertainment consultants" for politicians, so that's probably not a strategy that's going to go over well with the two major parties.

  27. Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is not how to get hydrogen out of biomass. The problem is photosynthis has a abmysal bad efficiency of around 0.5%, compared to 15-20% of a PV-module.

    1. Re:Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by lobiusmoop · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. PV modules are expensive, plants are free.

      --
      "I bless every day that I continue to live, for every day is pure profit."
    2. Re:Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Yeah Old McNinja says that's not true.

    3. Re:Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're missing the point. PV modules are expensive, plants are free.

      The PV guys need to get working on the self-assembling and self-replicating aspects.

    4. Re:Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by g8oz · · Score: 1

      Right up until you to have to harvest them and then an old guy comes out with a shotgun and says 'get off my land'.

    5. Re:Real problem: Photosynthesis Efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If plants are free, then why do we need to create huge volumes of artificial fertilizer and pesticides from fossil fuels to grow our food today?

  28. The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitable by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    Electric cars are a given; they simply have way to many enticing benefits (tremendous power, simplicity).

    No matter how much batteries improve, we'll simply not be able to fill them as conveniently we do normal vehicles. Putting plugs everywhere is totally impractical.

    Hydrogen solves all of the issues with batteries while still giving us electric cars. Sure there are some issues now but as articles like this show, over time there will be advances in both generating and storing hydrogen. It's only a matter of time before hydrogen cars totally replace electric cars because of simple utility, and (sadly) the ability to have a more normal taxing structure applied to fuel.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  29. Hydrogen is valuable NOT as a fuel source by Billy+the+Mountain · · Score: 3, Interesting

    While hydrogen can be used as a fuel, it makes more sense for it to be used in ammonia production. The #2 most-produced chemical is ammonia and it is most commonly produced using natural gas which produces CO2 as a by-product.

    Ultimately, the true test of this new process is how do the costs compare to steam-reforming of natural gas into hyrdogen?

    --
    That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
    1. Re:Hydrogen is valuable NOT as a fuel source by Paperweight · · Score: 1

      Curious as to the feasibility of ammonia fuels (not that you were suggesting that), I found that the #1 Google result for "ammonia engine" is actually really good.

  30. Link to Original Work by chill · · Score: 1

    For those dedicated enough to speak Chem (and maybe German!)

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ange.201300766/abstract

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  31. Whole process by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    The team liberates the high-purity hydrogen under mild reaction conditions at 122 degree Fahrenheit and normal atmospheric pressure. The biocatalysts used to release the hydrogen are a group of enzymes artificially isolated from different microorganisms that thrive at extreme temperatures, some of which could grow at around the boiling point of water.

    How much energy will it take to produce the biocatalysts and will that reduce the EROEI to less than 1?

  32. How long until market? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The article says 3 years, but like a vaccine in a banana, things like this seem to disappear.

    This will change everything if it makes it out into widespread use.

  33. Free Market by andydread · · Score: 1

    I thought this stuff should be left up the scientists at big oil to pioneer this research? We don't need no more gubmint funded research at educational institutions. too much big goverment is bad. Bad I say.

  34. Useful in small local applications, perhaps. by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    But if they think it's a "game changer," I suggest that the researchers quickly engage in a remedial math course. Plants are very inefficient solar collectors, land area is limited, using "natural" sources will quickly lead to the destruction of every natural environment if we were so silly as to try and replace the 160 exajoules per year provided by petroleum.

    So, useful for small things. Maybe, one day, if the process is cheap enough and energy positive. Third world countries may benefit. Industrial scale economies, not a chance in hell.

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
  35. Fuel cells by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

    Fuel cells give you a decent range and converting gas stations to also store hydrogen is probably going to be easier than revamping the entire electrical system to support any non trivial amount of charging at home.You could also use large home based fuel cells to generate electricity at source avoidiung transmission losses.

    What happens when all the commuters get home and put their cars on charge between 5-7

    1. Re:Fuel cells by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "what happens when all the commuters get home and turn on their lights, air conditioners, an TV. open the fridge, causing it to lose cold air and has to turn on, and turn on the stove/oven to start cooking dinner, and turn on their computer to lookup a recipe"

      i'm pretty sure adding one more standard 110v (220v if you buy the high-end one) device to the mix isn't going to have as dramatic effect as you seem to think.

    2. Re:Fuel cells by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      can i just say the whole 220v vs 110v is really weird here in europe where everyone uses 230V for everything. I assume that in europe our high power electric charge points would be 415V 3 phase. Since that's supplied to every house consumer unit - where typically 1 phase at 230V for distribution into the house. I don't know what the maximum ampage that can be supplied but a typical sub-station supplies 200 houses.

  36. not unbelievable by Chirs · · Score: 2

    The idea is that you put in plant matter and X amount of energy, and you get X+Y worth of usable hydrogen energy out of it (due the the conversion of plant matter to hydrogen).

    Previously, you put in plant matter and X amount of energy, and you got X-Z worth of usable hydrogen energy.

  37. what happens to the remaining carbon? by idji · · Score: 2

    If you take H away from sugars the carbon has to go somewhere. Does it become charcoal, buckyballs, hydrocarbons, alkenes or an aromatic nasty?

    1. Re:what happens to the remaining carbon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      according to zhang it becomes co2 - which of course is a greenhouse gas
      but then again if you agree with Alan Savory work https://www.ted.com/speakers/allan_savory.html we may be able to stop global warming altogether

    2. Re:what happens to the remaining carbon? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      but at least its a green house gas crated from a green house gas in the air, and not spewing something in the air that's been buried for millions of years.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:what happens to the remaining carbon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mostly irrelevant, since the carbon in the plant came from the atmosphere recently (most likely in the past year or two depending on the plant).

    4. Re:what happens to the remaining carbon? by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      if you read the origonal article from virginia tech you would know that breakdown, by the enzyme series, of the cellulose is into hydrogen and CO2 which is then released (and yes its a greehouse gas) whilist the hydrogen would be piped to a fuel cell

    5. Re:what happens to the remaining carbon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sugars have too many oxygen atoms around to end up as coal or alkenes. In fact, alkenes are also impossible because they have the same C/H ratio as sugars. The most likely result is CO, carbon monoxide. And that's a gas with sufficient use in industry to be valuable.

  38. Who cares? by RocketChild · · Score: 1

    So, you knowI like that there are still breakthrough processes happening for the ‘green’ movement. But really, I want to be empowered by not having to buy something from Shell or Chevron. I want solar and electric cars. I can create energy at my own home and be independent to some degree. This just means that I still need to stop at a gas station forwait for itgas. Hydrogen gas! Even though it might take time to charge an electric car, it still seems better that we are not wasting farm land to harvest corn or plants to just burn in cars.

  39. factor in the plant mass by Chirs · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is energy in the plant mass. The full equation is

    plant mass + input energy = output hydrogen energy + waste plant mass

    Entropy is still preserved in the overall system.

    1. Re:factor in the plant mass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. And it makes me wonder if they consider how much fossil-fuel-derived energy it currently takes to grow those plants. It's a lot, actually.

  40. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

    Actually we could give them transponders and put electrical infrastructure in the roads for inductive chargers, whereby your car could report your account to the utility company and the utility could charge for your power usage.

    Alternately, we could just let the Government do it, but when you renew your registration you have to turn in your mileage, and they forward that to your utility, and bill you.

  41. Wake me up when the headline reads... by EvilSS · · Score: 1

    ...Big Advance In Hydrogen Production Changed Alternative Energy Landscape

    Seriously, how many "big advancement" stories come out like this each year, then vanish to never be heard from again?

    --
    I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    1. Re:Wake me up when the headline reads... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed! What I'd like to see is some articles about where these "HUGE advances" went and why we haven't heard about them again.

  42. Brilliant! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So - all we have to do instead of, say, farming three thousand acres of random vegetation, is to build, deploy and maintain a full square mile of solar panels.

    Send me your company's portfolio, I can't wait to invest.

  43. Just misleading accounting / journalism by ace37 · · Score: 1

    I don't think they're claiming to violate the laws of thermodynamics; it appears they're just using an inappropriate reference value. Based on the rest of the quote, it looks like they are using the 100% efficiency energy output from burning the biomass as the reference and comparing it to the net energy output using this method. I base that on the context from the rest of the quote:

    ...Even more appealing, this reaction occurs at low temperatures, generating hydrogen energy that is greater than the chemical energy stored in xylose and the polyphosphate. This results in an energy efficiency of more than 100 percent — a net energy gain. That means that low-temperature waste heat can be used to produce high-quality chemical energy hydrogen for the first time. Other processes that convert sugar into biofuels such as ethanol and butanol always have energy efficiencies of less than 100 percent, resulting in an energy penalty.

  44. Beauty of a Hydrogen economy by ElitistWhiner · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A Hydrogen economy STOPS green house gas emission from transportation, litters our roadways with H2O instead of oil and disrupts power in the Middle East.

    SO...

    What are we waiting for? We could extract our asses out of the deserts of the world with simple plant processing now

    1. Re:Beauty of a Hydrogen economy by geekoid · · Score: 1

      that's the beauty of any home grown energy source.

      Hydrogen has many problems.

      The middle east is about stability, not about oil.
      It's about not letting crazy asses get nuclear technology. Oil is a small factor.
      If we wanted to go someplace for oil, there are better places.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Beauty of a Hydrogen economy by jafac · · Score: 1

      meh. I've been saying this for 30 years. What ARE we waiting for?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    3. Re:Beauty of a Hydrogen economy by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Screw the mythical "hydrogen economy!" My car already has no (net) greenhouse gas emissions and doesn't support the middle east. It's also 15 years old, costs about $4000, and runs on biodiesel.

      Solving "green transportation" simply isn't that hard; the hard part is simply to recognize that we already have the solution!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    4. Re:Beauty of a Hydrogen economy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck I think Death Valley probably hits 122 degrees in the summer.

  45. Super motivated... by G-Man · · Score: 2

    That's because they're giving it 110%.

  46. Better or Worse than Ethanol? by mothlos · · Score: 1

    So, you can extract the hydrogen effectively from the plant material, but now you have the energy in a form which is difficult to store and transport. This still requires producing large amounts of plant material which is an environmentally difficult-to-sustain prospect in order to capture solar energy. In the end, it has nearly all of the problems of ethanol plus a bunch of serious ones for a smallish efficiency gain.

    1. Re:Better or Worse than Ethanol? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the point that Zhang has made is that the hydrogen can be produced in line i.e. you put a sugar source mixed with enzymes directly into your tank and the hydrogne that is produced is used inline by a fuel cell
      the sugar source can be literally any form of pulp wood or plant based cellulose

    2. Re:Better or Worse than Ethanol? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      But can it be from beer, an aluminum can and a banana peel?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Better or Worse than Ethanol? by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      sadly this is not a Mr fusion device but great ref thanks for making me laugh i'm the anymous coward you replied to

  47. Better Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    fill the tank with a xylose solution and let the machinery generate hydrogen on demand, so it doesn't need to be stored. burn it to generate electricity and charge batteries, for a plant fuel hybrid

  48. So the bacteria are having sex most of the time by zwarte+piet · · Score: 1

    instead of working 24/7.. Can't blame them

  49. Take It Seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Virginia Tech. has a substantial reputation. If the University has released such a statement we have something. If it is just some reporter it is quite another matter.
                                My greatest concern is whether land traditionally used for food crops would be compromised to make fuel. That is a practice we need to make illegal. With a swelling world population we simply can not afford loss of crop lands for any reason. It is already costing us every time we buy groceries and in places like Mexico we are generating misery by allowing corn to be used to make fuel.

  50. What happens to the Carbon by medv4380 · · Score: 1

    So they're getting the Hydrogen off of the sugar, but what happens to the Carbon left over in this equation?

    1. Re:What happens to the Carbon by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      if you read the origonal article at virginia tech Zhang explained that the cellulose broken down by a series of enzymes, releasing CO2 as a by product on route

  51. Storing and Transport Method Suggested by Zhang by wanfuse123 · · Score: 1

    With sugar, water, and enzymes in your tank, you have a fuel kit for a PEM (proton electrolyte membrane) fuel cell vehicle. An onboard battery provides the instant energy for starting the vehicle while the enzymes get to work on their sugary snack. The fuel cell will recharge the battery later from excess sugar energy. According to Zhang, "Low-temperature PEM fuel cells are used primarily for transportation applications due to their fast startup time, high energy conversion efficiency, low operating temperature (below 180 F), and favorable power-to-weight ratio." Zhang and Mielenz wrote in a review in the Jan. 28, 2011, issue of the journal Energies, "When polysaccharides and water are mixed, no reaction occurs ... When the enzyme cocktail is added, hydrogen and carbon dioxide are generated spontaneously. Our research showed that the gas produced by (synthetic cell-free enzyme pathway biotransformation) contains 67 percent hydrogen and 33 percent carbon dioxide. Hydrogen and carbon dioxide can be separated by membrane technology (or the) mixture can be directly used by PEM fuel cells with approximately 1 percent loss in fuel cell efficiency." The efficiency statement is based on a study by Zhang's lab published in the journal Energy & Environmental Science in 2011. Zhang wrote in a Perspective column in Energy & Environmental Sciences that the process provides a number of special features suitable for mobile PEM fuel cells: high energy efficiency as a result of extracting all the chemical energy stored in the substrate sugars and some of the low-temperature thermal energy from the fuel cell; high hydrogen storage density; mild reaction conditions, at the same range of those of PEM fuel cells; nearly no costs for product separation; clean products for PEM fuel cells and easy power system configuration; and simple and safe distribution and storage of solid sugars. "Carbohydrates as a hydrogen carrier would meet the U.S. Department of Energy's ultimate target for useful energy based on the mass of the entire onboard system in a light-duty vehicle (7.5 percent hydrogen by weight or 2.5 kilowatt hour per kilogram)," Zhang says. Stationary energy sites, such as large fuel cell stacks, can also take delivery of carbohydrate powder from local or distant biorefineries and generate hydrogen by using an enzyme cocktail, says Zhang. It is also possible that satellite hydrogen generation stations could produce hydrogen to refill hydrogen-fuel cell vehicles. The use of renewable carbohydrate as a hydrogen storage carrier addresses the challenges associated with storage, safety, distribution, and infrastructure, Zhang and Mielenz conclude in the review. What about miracle four – better fuel cells? It's not his field, but he believes most fuel cell problems, such as cost and lifetime, have been solved. "In the long term, improving energy utilization efficiency through hydrogen-fuel cell electricity systems will be vital for sustainable transportation," he says. In the meantime, there are still a number of process engineering challenges to overcome to implement sugar-powered cars, says Zhang – such as warm-up of the onboard bioreformer where the sugar and water are converted to gas, shut-down of the bioreformer, temperature control for the coupled bioreformer and fuel cells, mixing and gas release control for the bioreformer, and re-generation of used enzymes in the bioreformer. "But such technical challenges can be solved based on available engineering know-how if the great potential is widely realized," he says. http://rawcell.com

  52. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    -> Putting plugs everywhere is totally impractical.

    Yeah, right, because putting hydrogen storage and fueling facilities everywhere is?

  53. OP missed a key factor: direct hydrogen conversion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you look at the article this is based on at virginia tech the OP has missed a critical factor
    http://www.vt.edu/spotlight/innovation/2012-02-27-fuels/zhang.html
    "Hydrogen storage and distribution
    Yes. Zhang is recommending putting E.coli and a form of sugar in your vehicle's tank.
    Hydrogen gas is difficult to store and to transport. But not if it is stored in a carbohydrate, something like flour or powdered sugar, enriched with enzymes. You could buy a bag of it from a grocery store or dry goods outlet – an instant mix to fuel a fuel cell. An onboard battery provides immediate energy for starting the vehicle while the enzymes get to work on their sugary snack. The fuel cell will recharge the battery later from excess sugar energy.
    Stationary energy sites, such as large fuel cell stacks, can also take delivery of carbohydrate powder from local or distant biorefineries and generate hydrogen by using an enzyme cocktail, Zhang said."

    see also "A sweet out-of-the-box solution to the hydrogen economy: is the sugar-powered car science fiction?" by
    Y.-H. Percival Zhang Energy Environ. Sci., 2009,2, 272-282 http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2009/ee/b818694d

  54. Wow! That's Great, Except by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    I haven't measured it, but I believe convincingly that Virginia is adjacent to the second largest pool of hydrogen on the planet; the Atlantic Ocean. Combined with that thing in the sky that appears about every 12 hours or so; I reference it as, âoethe Sun.â Once again, I have not measured it, but for we mere mortals, the Sun will still be fully operational when our species becomes something else. Could it be that the movie, âoeDeliveranceâ has had a deeper impact on the educators of Virginia than one could possibly imagine?

  55. Yes! by pivot_enabled · · Score: 1

    I don't know why this seems to elude so many. We already HAVE a high density hydrogen delivery vehicle.

  56. Which is more practical... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Yeah, right, because putting hydrogen storage and fueling facilities everywhere is?

    Why not? All you have to do is add hydrogen tanks at normal gas stations. At first such tanks would be sparse, and the selection of gas stations supporting hydrogen would be limited. But since hydrogen vehicles would have a more traditional range of around 300miles+, that would not matter much.

    With electric chargers you cannot just put them at gas stations replacing pumps. Because they take so much longer to charge, you need many more of them at a gas station to handle the same volume of cars filling up - there also would be more cars coming in to fill because the range is more limited, and you have to provide somewhere for all those people to wait too which you didn't before.

    But even THAT is not enough, again because of limited range and charge times you have to put charging outlets in every apartment complex, in every parking garage for an office complex. It's plain to see that it would take a HUGE overhaul to every city to have 90% of the cars on the road being electric. You also have to run bigger power lines out to remote places like national parks, meaning more power lines stringing across the landscape...

    Hydrogen just acting like a newer form of fuel provides a far more natural migration path, and lets people use cars as they are used to without limitation - only now they have zero emissions and are faster off the line.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Which is more practical... by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Becasue it's a lot more difficult to store then..pretty much anything else.
      IT leaks easily, destroys the container it's in.

      "With electric chargers you cannot just put them at gas stations replacing pumps."
      battery swap.

      And as I have mentioned elsewhere, there was a time where you would see a town with 2-4 gas stations because of that very issue. Cars had very limited range at first.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Which is more practical... by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      Because it's a lot more difficult to store then..pretty much anything else

      That is true now but will be less true going forward. And it's not like it's impossible; there are hydrogen filling stations TODAY in California.

      The ability to store hydrogen will improve far more rapidly than the ability to rapidly charge cars. And you do not have to store as much if hydrogen can be produced locally, which should be much easier to make happen than adding refineries.

      battery swap.

      I guess you REALLY are not thinking about what has to happen for 90% of cars to be electric, unless in the future all gas/charging stations sit next to an abandoned Wal-Mart.

      I am not for some tiny percentage of cars to be coddled because it makes a few people think we are doing some good for the environment. I am for just about EVERY car being electric because it makes plain good sense AND helps the environment.

      Cars had very limited range at first.

      But now they don't and people do not, by and large, go backwards much at all. Electric cars are a huge step backwards over conventional cars.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  57. Nitpick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hate to be pedantic, but I was reading the article (yes, really) and noticed they said "Zhang is using the second most prevalent sugar in plants to produce this hydrogen".

    Summary says "The key is using xylose, the most abundant simple plant sugar"

    So which is it?
    Does anybody care?
    (hello?)

  58. The best thing... by soundguy · · Score: 1

    The best thing about this new technology is that no post-apocalyptic movie, book, or short story has EVER started out like this:

    Virginia Tech scientists separated a number of enzymes from their native microorganisms to create a customized enzyme cocktail that does not occur in nature.

    --
    Nothing worthwhile ever happens before noon
  59. I have a solution - use xylose directly by littlewink · · Score: 2

    I have a sugar-burning engine that can slurp sugar and do work. It's called a "horse". It has fairly serious emissions problems though and a bad disposition occasionally. But on the whole it can get you where you need to go.

  60. Discovered near perfect energy source by geekoid · · Score: 1

    in the lab you say?

    Completely renewable you say?

    In three years you say?

    hmmm.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Discovered near perfect energy source by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      the three years refres to a pilot plant being built in virgina but a french biotech company

  61. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by geekoid · · Score: 1

    "Putting plugs everywhere is totally impractical."
    we managed to put gas stations everywhere. There was a time you saw a gas station every 50 miles or so. Hell in my life time I remember when there where 2 gas station.

    It's very doable.

    " to have a more normal taxing structure applied to fuel."
    electricity is simple to tax.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  62. Tried it in the UK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    litters our roadways with H2O instead of oil

    In the UK we've already done extensive environment trials with H2O, and let me tell you, it's not all that appealing, unless you're a fish.

  63. Clean up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hope the government sweeps this under the rug quickly. Cover it up and take it away from the developers. Or at least come up wih a way to tax us out of our shorts for a piece of the pie.

  64. HYPE!!! They left something VERY important out. by mattizzle2013 · · Score: 1

    Of all the comments I've read on here, including the OP I have failed to see one major issue with this. Probably since this site is more for 'computer nerds' than 'energy nerds' like I am ;) All issues with hydrogen aside, there is another 'issue' with this process, that of course the article fails to mention. They ALWAYS leave something critical out, because this of course has to be as 'exiciting' as possible. They never mention the downsides. The downside is the bottleneck in this process is not the hydrogen production, but the production of Xylose. They can't simply take biomass and turn it into hydrogen with this process. They must first 'break apart' the cellulose in biomass in order to obtain xylose sugars. THIS is the hard part, and therefore the expensive part. THAT is the part that requires the breakthrough. It's the same issue that cellulosic ethanol faces. They're both based on the same thing. Making use of sugars from cellulosic biomass. The problem isn't making use of the sugar (the so-called 'breakthrough' here) The REAL issue that needs a breakthrough is actually turning the cellulose into a mixture of sugars. Either using enzymes, heat, acid, etc. That's where a little bit of literacy on the technology can give a totally different view of these so-called 'AMAZING!!! STUPENDOUS!!' breakthroughs. The news is so dumb sometimes it makes me cringe. HERE is where a breakthrough is required to make this so-called amazing process viable: http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/jin2/ Cost of breaking down cellulose is the barrier here. With current technology, it would be very expensive hydrogen, but that may change.... but if you can make hydrogen cheaply, you can make ethanol cheaply so why bother??? I can tell from the comments here that most ppl here are computer guys and may be very computer literate but not very 'energy literate'. This news caters to that.

    1. Re:HYPE!!! They left something VERY important out. by Big+Kate · · Score: 1

      If you look at the article by zhang at virginia tech and in his 2009 paper he is proposing to use a cascade of enzymes. AFAIK he has managed to go from a pure cellulose feedstock to hydrogen not just from Xylose. according to the virgina tech article a french company is building a pilot plant to manufacture the enzymes, the issue here as ever is what can be done in a lab doesn't necessarily scale to industrial production hence the pilot plant

  65. What about the oxygen? by BlueCoder · · Score: 1

    I hate the focus on carbon dioxide. If your producing hydrogen then you also need to produce oxygen because that's what it reacts with when it's burned and turns into water.

    1. Re:What about the oxygen? by mattizzle2013 · · Score: 1

      The oxygen goes into carbon dioxide, which is carbon, plus oxygen. C + O2

  66. Hydrogen is Not the perfect fuel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hydrogen is hard and expensive to store and transport. To store it you must expend a lot of energy to liquefy it or to compress it. High pressure containers are heavy and dangerous if damaged. Hydride containers are very expensive because they use expensive materials and require heat to extract the hydrogen. Cryogenic containers are much more expensive to fabricate than the simple metal or plastic tanks used for gasoline. If you want to transport it by pipes you have to build a whole new infrastructure system the current natural gas and oil systems will not work due to hydrogen diffusion rate through seals and into metals. Hydogen if burned is no more efficient than any other fuel used in a heat engine. Water vapor is one of the most powerful green house gases. Making more of it would cause additional global warming. Used in fuel cells it is more efficient however fuel cells are very expensive and have many practical problems like being destroyed by exposure to freezing temperatures. These are tough engineering problems that make a Hydrogen based energy future very unlikely and far in the future.
    The only thing holding back solar is cost of generating capacity which is dropping every year. Battery capacity, charge rate and cost are also limiting factors, However great progress is being made in these areas as well. The use of any biofuel will be limited until the magic algae that excretes a finished product can be engineered. The cost of planting, fertilizing, harvesting and converting to fuel is just too great to make it practical at this time. If the process to convert a bio-waste into a sellable product allows a profit to be made it will be and should be done. Just don't create another job killing government subsidy to force it to happen.
     

  67. Still runs on oil. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you take plant energy away from the soil, then you need to replenish the soil. Take something away, you gotta put something back. No free lunch here.

    In terms of agriculture, we're doing this with oil derived fertilizers. A whole lot of them. Like billions of tons a year kind of quantities.

    If you start burning plant fuel in cars instead of in cows and people, then you're back to the same equation. You're either going to have to cut into our forest reserves, which isn't sustainable, or you're going to have to use oil to keep on growing fuel crops.

    Solar and nuclear seem like more sensible paths to follow, though, nuclear is kind of out in my opinion, at least until humans can learn how to run plants without being corrupt, shortsighted idiots.

  68. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by gtarthur · · Score: 1

    There are already plugs all around you - probably within less than 15 feet from where you're reading this post. The issue is making the existing ubiquitous electrical grid accessible for this new need. Special purpose electrical transformers, aka charging stations, should be fairly easy to mass produce. Tap into the wireless Internet access points for self-service payment options, and you'll have a growth industry in every pod mall in the US. It's just a new type of vending machine with far fewer issues than the tanks for gasoline and diesel fuels. The things can even phone home for service. The tipping point is very close. There's serious private sector investment in battery technology with monthly advances being announced. Every hybrid purchased, puts a little more money into a battery producer that can be used for more R&D.

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    Every change is not progress, but there is no progress without change.
  69. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    swapping out batteries for charged ones could possibly be quicker than dispensing liquids.

  70. unbelieveable !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    after reading through all the posts, not one reference to "back to the future"
    but seriously, if this is possible, (i work at a sugarmill) there is plenty of waste heat available out there in industry, ("steam" return condensate etc),
    and for example with the burning of canefields to reduce leaf mater etc (if indeed they could be used) adds up to quite a bit of tonnage. this is only one industry that disposes of plant matter, there is an incredible amount of industrial plant mater out there.

  71. not enough figures in the damn articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How much hydrogen and how quickly at what sort of low temperatures? Could we have a system of plant goo actively being converted into a smallish but useful amount of hydrogen at a steady rate within a veh-heecle?

  72. Protoculture by katchins · · Score: 1

    So...is this the beginning of Protoculture?

    Surely the Robotech Masters and the Zentraedi are not far behind!

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    if (!sig) { printf("Signature Unavailable\n"); }
  73. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by vandamme · · Score: 1

    Puitting refueling stations everywhere for gasoline vehicles is equally impractical.

  74. Re:The victory of hydrogen over batteries inevitab by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    swapping out batteries for charged ones could possibly be quicker than dispensing liquids.

    A normal gas station has between 200-300 customers buying gas per day. How do you think they can store them all - and how is it practical to charge that many over a day, in each gas station? And again, you really need MORE than that because with reduced range people would be filling up more often.

    The battery packs in electric cars are roughly the size of a small child's mattress. So who is going to swap those in and out?

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  75. Lots of plugs, few capable by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    There are already plugs all around you - probably within less than 15 feet from where you're reading this post.

    At a house? Yes. But those are the kinds of plugs where you are going to take 12-15 hours to recharge an electric car.

    Plugs and wiring that can handle a faster charge in a car are rarer - in your house only the washing area and kitchen are generally rated for that level of current.

    But that's just the house, the house is not an issue. The issue is everywhere ELSE that suddenly needs huge power lines. As I said, every apartment complex where no, in fact, there are NOT plugs every 15 feet. The same goes for parking garages at most work places, which have zero plugs generally.

    You are totally underestimating the very large amount of infrastructure required to be built out to distribute power everywhere people take cars today. It's simply not practical to have more than a tiny percentage of the population owning electric cars.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  76. is it economicaly viable by rhalstead · · Score: 1

    Almost as important as "can you do it" is the question, "is it economically viable. There is the molecular sponge for storage, which IIRC can actually hold more than a tank of equal dimensions. The problem with Hydrogen is the low power density compared to hydrocarbons. .