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Most Projects On GitHub Aren't Open Source Licensed

PCM2 writes "Kids these days just don't care about open source. That's the conclusion of the Software Freedom Law Center's Aaron Williamson, who analyzed some 1.7 million projects on GitHub and found that only about 15% of them had a clearly identifiable license in their top-level directories. And of the projects that did have licenses, the vast majority preferred permissive licenses such as the MIT, BSD, or Apache licenses, rather than the GPL. Has the younger generation given up on ideas like copyleft and Free Software? And if so, what can be done about it?" Not having an identifiable license is one thing, but it seems quite a stretch to say that choosing a permissive open source license is "not caring"; horses for courses.

630 comments

  1. Open Source License by bestgjs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The vast majority preferred permissive licenses such as the MIT, BSD, or Apache licenses, rather than the GPL. Has the younger generation given up on ideas like copyleft and Free Software?

    No, they haven't. They've just noticed that licenses like BSD is better open source license than GPL. There's a simple reason for it too - BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom. Anyone, either open or closed source projects, can use BSD licensed code.

    This means younger generation haven't forgotten about open source licenses (BSD is one), they've just chosen the better one of them.

    1. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In other words: this generation doesn't care for limiting other developers' choices in development in the way Stallman wanted. They prefer to just give away the code instead of forcing everyone who uses it to open their own work. Good for this generation, I'd say. They've seen the outcome of a "GPL-only" world, and they didn't like it.

    2. Re:Open Source License by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice troll.

      You will get many bites.

    3. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 5, Informative

      They've just noticed that licenses like BSD is better open source license than GPL.

      I love it when people take subjective opinion and present it as if it were fact. Going BSD does mean you give up on copyleft.

      BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom. Anyone, either open or closed source projects, can use BSD licensed code.

      It depends on your goals. GPL is very clear in its intent to keep the sources of the software it covers open, and that necessarily excludes closed source projects.

    4. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who develops both open-source and commercial software, I strongly prefer permissive licenses.

      Sometimes you want to contribute to the community and share information for the good of all.

      Sometimes you want to sell a product.

      Likewise, I would expect most people who are not copyleft "all information must be free" purists to favor the permissive licenses.

    5. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unfortunately, commentary on licenses, particularly BSD vs. GPL, falls into the purview of Poe's law. They could be trolling, or they could be totally serious and there's no way to tell.

    6. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right, but you're wrong. You're right that the BSD license is more permissive than the GPL. That's great, but this is slashdot, and we already knew that. You're wrong to say that either one is "better". Why? Because that's a decision that can only be made by each individual author. And you're most definitely wrong -- and rather immature -- to proclaim a blanket conclusion such as "this one is always better".

    7. Re:Open Source License by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      Otherwise stuff like Word Perfect, Oracle, SimCity 3000, and Steam wouldn't exist for Linux. Free Software can co-exist quite peaceably with coders that want you to pay for their work.

      Problems only arise when you want to treat someone else's work like your own exclusive property. That's usually not necessary.

      Although it's ultimately about keeping contributors happy. It's not about your personal crusade. Nor is it about Stallman's really.

      If you are a project of one with no one else to keep happy, of course you can be much more flexible with your licensing. I suspect this is the case for most of the stuff on GitHub.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 5, Interesting

      this generation doesn't care for limiting other developers' choices in development in the way Stallman wanted.

      Ooh, I can twist this one around:

      this generation doesn't care to preserve the freedom of others in using their computers, the way Stallman wanted

      That's a good one!

      They've seen the outcome of a "GPL-only" world, and they didn't like it.

      What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?

    9. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very true, why would people limit themselves by the GPL? We like things like paying our bills, not telling Stallman how great he is.

    10. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quite true. Bestgjs' commentis trolltastic. It is also detached from reality.

      Currently I have 4 projects released as opensource. One is LGPL, two are BSD and one is GPLv3. The reason I chose those licenses for each project was that the first one is a library which I hope people can freely share, the BSD ones are smaller libraries which are completely unimportant, and the GPLv3 one is a desktop application that does sciency stuff. From bestgjs' comment, the BSD libraries would be as important as the non-trivial projects which I do give a damn, which is stupid.

      So, no. The younger generation haven't forgotten about open source licenses, but what they actually did was read them and understand where each one is more appropriate, and the BSD type licenses is often only appropriate for code which the author doesn't mind if its thrown away.

    11. Re:Open Source License by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      The vast majority preferred permissive licenses such as the MIT, BSD, or Apache licenses, rather than the GPL. Has the younger generation given up on ideas like copyleft and Free Software?

      No, they haven't. They've just noticed that licenses like BSD is better open source license than GPL. There's a simple reason for it too - BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom. Anyone, either open or closed source projects, can use BSD licensed code. I also think they have seen how valuable an idea and the supporting code can be and want to be able to cash in on that while still sharing what they're doing. The BSD license is very amenable to that; unlike the GPL. It's not less free tahn teh GPL and an argument can be made, and is being made on /., taht it is less restrictive and thus freer than the GPL. This means younger generation haven't forgotten about open source licenses (BSD is one), they've just chosen the better one of them.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    12. Re:Open Source License by drakaan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Closed-source projects can't be distributed under the GPL (that would be in direct conflict with the terms of the license...you have to make source code available, including any modifications you have made...at least for code that you distribute)...I think that's the degree of exclusion the OP was talking about.

      That doesn't mean you can't run a closed-source program on a GPL-licensed OS stack.

      --
      "Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
    13. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 4, Informative

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      It does. You can't take GPL sources and integrate them into a closed source product.

      Otherwise stuff like Word Perfect, Oracle, SimCity 3000, and Steam wouldn't exist for Linux. Free Software can co-exist quite peaceably with coders that want you to pay for their work.

      This suggests that you don't understand the point you're trying to make. The GPL does not cover the products you listed.

    14. Re:Open Source License by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      True, with a brand new account and a highly up-modded comment there's a chance he's a shill too...all I know is he's full of shit and forgets (or willfully ignores/hand-waves away) the conditions that led to the creation of the GPL. I could draw a very nice political comparison here but I'd rather stay on topic.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    15. Re:Open Source License by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's in fact the key difference, and interestingly each side more or less agrees. The "free software" side's key interest is the freedom of users to modify their hardware and software, and distribute those modifications: the freedom-to-hack. The "open source" side's key interest is the freedom of developers to reuse software in a distributed, "bazaar" manner. Sometimes the goals overlap, and sometimes not.

    16. Re:Open Source License by HiThere · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you write the code, the GPL doesn't prevent you from including it in commercial products. You're the copyright holder, so you can relicense it to suit yourself.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:Open Source License by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I "public domain" my small and unimportant stuff, basically because it's worthless and if anyone wants to try to close it and profit from it or plagiarize it, good luck and have fun. If I were to release something large and valuable it would be GPLv3 (possibly a data overlay generator, soon.)

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    18. Re:Open Source License by verbatim · · Score: 5, Funny

      I much prefer Godwin's law. After all, Hitler supported the GPL.

      --
      Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
    19. Re:Open Source License by rmstar · · Score: 2

      Here is a nice article that includes a historical writeup by Evgeny Morozov on how the concepts of Open Source and Free Software ended up meaning something different (and fas less interesting and progressive) than initially. Warning: It is a long read.

    20. Re:Open Source License by Millennium · · Score: 2

      Actually, going BSD pretty much does mean you give up on copyleft. It doesn't mean you give up on open-source, of course, but copyleft -the idea of using copyright to enforce the openness of your code- is not a part of BSD, and is in fact the Big Sticking Point of the GPL for many people.

    21. Re:Open Source License by Minter92 · · Score: 1, Informative

      I have never liked the GPL and I've been involved in open source since the early 90s. I've never liked the GPL or really considered it a free license. It's a controlling license. Freedom is not "you are free because you have to do what we tell you." There are 3 types of licenses:

      closed/controlling
      open/controlling ie GPL
      free/open ie permissive license

    22. Re:Open Source License by nametaken · · Score: 4, Insightful

      this generation doesn't care to preserve the freedom of others in using their computers, the way Stallman wanted

      You can complain all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people want their code to be more open and available than gpl allows, when they think it's appropriate. That their decision.

      What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?

      A world with less freedom than a world where we can choose the license we want? Why are you so upset by people doing what they want with their own work?

    23. Re:Open Source License by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Its wasn't a question of Open Source it was specifically about all of that "Free Software" ideology that Open Source, by its very nature, ignores.

      So essentially you are saying YES, they have forgotten about copyleft, and have moved to less restrictive models.

      Though, I tend to think the answer is more No, they never knew about it in the first place and likely don't even bother to think about licensing....and are just doing what programers have been doing since before licensing became an issue.... just sharing code.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    24. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a lot of people want their code to be more open and available than gpl allows

      That's on them, then. They do give up leverage in many respects, such as the ability to re-license it.

      A world with less freedom than a world where we can choose the license we want?

      Of course, the unrealistic explanation would be the first.

      Why are you so upset by people doing what they want with their own work?

      I'm not. I'm just annoyed by posts like the one I responded to where people deliberately misinterpret and bash the GPL for no good reason.

    25. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. They've forgotten what it's like to not live in a police-state where you're not expected to perform slave labor for the corporations. They've forgotten (if they ever knew) what it's like to get credit for your work, and what it's like to get fair value for granting an alternative license. They've forgotten what it's like to have rights.

      Ironic CAPTCHA: bettered

    26. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Certainly more freedom to the developer, but your ability to choose the license you want is also in a way the ability to limit the freedom of others if you so wish, or in this case the ability to grant another the ability to limit user choices.

      More freedom to the developers always comes at the cost of less freedom to the user. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, but it just debunks the theory that more license options implies in more freedom in the general sense.

    27. Re:Open Source License by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      GPL is very clear in its intent to (...)

      The problem is that GPL isn't clear. I personally prefer BSD, but I understand both licenses well enough to know why I prefer BSD. Now, try showing the GPL, particularly v3, to a developer. Not a FAQ, the license itself. He'll fall asleep after 2 minutes. Contrast this with the BSD license: a small text that in a few short sentences explains, in as much clarity as is legally possible, what it means.

      Here's a suggestion for GPL folk then: try writing a GPLv4 that is concise, clear, fits into at most a single page, and is as much non-lawyered-up as possible. That might not solve the issue of lack of adoption, but it'll certainly help.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    28. Re:Open Source License by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most will be serious, and most will be AWARE that their posts are making strawmen of the license they disapprove of, but that wont stop the posts.

      Seriously, who among GPL proponents is not aware of the BSD arguments / goals? Who among BSD proponents doesnt get what Stallman et al are going for? Do you REALLY think they hate freedom, do you REALLY not understand that they are concerned with different "freedom" than you are?

    29. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BSD licence is about the freedom to choose. If you choose to make your changes to others under a BSD licnces that is one choice.

      You can also choose to be an ass and pick a different license.

      Its so thoughtful of the original submitter to remove the Karmic burden of others to "play nice with others" and wish to force a GNU/GPL choice.

    30. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually the GPL does exclude closed source projects. Your examples are the benefit of the LGPL.

    31. Re:Open Source License by elfprince13 · · Score: 2

      *eyeroll* FUD troll is FUDdy. Also...how's that LLVM/Clang/WebKit/CUPS you're using?

    32. Re:Open Source License by Microlith · · Score: 2

      Lawyers love to abuse non-legalese. This is why the FAQ and preamble exist. And even at it's length, the GPL is shorter than virtually any commonly found EULA or other license agreement I've ever seen.

    33. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      +1 GPL is just a pain in the ass. The new world of open source is the practical approach where companies primarily sell SaaS and want to adapt free infrastructure components into custom apps that are sold to people who don't even know what source code vs. trying to build some grand open source app and hope to make money off it selling support.

    34. Re:Open Source License by Bob9113 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom.

      The BSD license says, "I will not use copyright to impose regulatory monopoly restrictions on you, but you can incorporate my work in a derivative work which imposes regulatory monopoly restrictions on others."

      The GPL says, "I will use the regulatory monopoly restriction of copyright in the narrowest way that prohibits the use of my work in any greater exercise of monopoly restrictions on others."

      The BSD license uses your copyright to maximize the freedom of primary recipients of your work. The GPL uses your copyright to maximize the freedom of secondary recipients of your work. Claiming that one is objectively more free betrays a lack of comprehension.

    35. Re:Open Source License by TemporalBeing · · Score: 3, Informative

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      It does. You can't take GPL sources and integrate them into a closed source product.

      While generally true, you can if it is for internal use only b/c then you are not distributing.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    36. Re:Open Source License by Jonner · · Score: 0

      The vast majority preferred permissive licenses such as the MIT, BSD, or Apache licenses, rather than the GPL. Has the younger generation given up on ideas like copyleft and Free Software?

      No, they haven't. They've just noticed that licenses like BSD is better open source license than GPL. There's a simple reason for it too - BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom. Anyone, either open or closed source projects, can use BSD licensed code.

      This means younger generation haven't forgotten about open source licenses (BSD is one), they've just chosen the better one of them.

      If by "better", you mean "more easily made proprietary" then you're right. In contrast to your simplistic characterization, the true spirit of freedom is that it is for everyone, not just those who are quick enough to figure out how to restrict others' freedoms. Neither permissive nor copyleft licenses are objectively better in the grand scheme of things. Rather, they represent different strategies for promoting software freedom. Permissive licenses put the least restriction on the person using the code and allow him to restrict the freedoms of anyone using his derived code. Copyleft licenses restrict the user of the code only to the extent it's necessary to give everyone the same rights.

      If you want code to be as popular as possible, use a permissive license. If you want the code to remain free and open source wherever it's used, use a copyleft license. Which choice translates into the maximum freedom for the maximum number of people is affected by many factors, which is why there is not one correct choice.

    37. Re:Open Source License by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      I'm not. I'm just annoyed by posts like the one I responded to where people deliberately misinterpret and bash the GPL for no good reason.

      No misinterpretation happened – both you and he interpreted it correctly, he just felt that a different freedom was more important than the one the GPL encodes, and pointed out that many other people feel the same way.

      As an aside –I find it funny that the GPL guys are the ones taking offence here –after all, the article is the one with the aggressive stand point of "what can be done about" people using more permissive licenses than the GPL.

    38. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the younger generation has discovered exactly what the older generation discovered, then lost and tried to reclaim.

      Stallman has talked about his time in academia and described the way that software worked. Everyone who wrote software shared it with each other and the ecosystem thrived. Then other interests realized that software was valuable and tried to lock it down. The GPL grew out of attempting to keep code from being locked down. But there was no GPL in those early days, only an informal way things were done.

      Github is the rediscovery of that way things are done. It encourages people to share software by providing tools (fork, pull request and such) that make sharing and contributing easy. For them, the complexities of the GPL just get in the way. It's easier to just give everything away under the most permissive license. Github, to programmer geeks, is another vector of Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn...it's part of your online reputation. The more impressive your Github, the easier it is to find work or have your opinion respected online. And unlike LinkedIn where you can claim to know things just by saying you do, Github offers proof through code samples. We've actually had great results in hiring by using Github's search API to search for projects and then limiting that list to developers in our area.

      What remains to be seen is whether the same thing that happened to the older generation will happen to the Github generation. Will entrenched interests realize the value of what's being produced and try to control it or steal from it? If so, there may be a movement towards using the GPL or something similar that forces people to either opt into the spirit of Github or opt out entirely. However the complete lack of licenses might actually be a plus in this regard. Big companies will shy away from using code on Github because of the liability it creates. Small companies that are willing to do things the Github way will benefit from code created there and enrich the community.

      For example, the latest feature I worked on was made much simpler by a project I found on Github. It's very well done, but has some rough edges that I spent a week or so fixing. I submitted a pull request which was accepted and the developer was friendly and genuinely seemed happy that his code was being used and others were participating in his project. There's no license for the project, but I know we're not going to run into problems because we're not a user of the project, we're a participant in the project and have helped to make it better.

      The Github community seems to be attempting to recreate Stallman's programmer utopia by simply ignoring copyright law entirely rather than attempting to wrangle it to that purpose. Only time will tell which approach works better.

    39. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And perhaps they've decided eating toe jam and letting parrots sex them up isn't so hip.

    40. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You can complain all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of people want their code to be more open and available than gpl allows, when they think it's appropriate. That their decision.

      Yes, and a lot of other people prefer to take advantage of the protections given by the GPL. That is also their decision, and no less valid than the one you mention.

      What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?

      A world with less freedom than a world where we can choose the license we want?

      Strawman, no-one has EVER suggested that people should be forbidden from choosing permissive licences (and I don't think many people want to outright forbid proprietary licences either, just discourage them).

      Why are you so upset by people doing what they want with their own work?

      And yet you seem awfully aggressive towards the idea that people might want to put their own work under the GPL.

    41. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So you're saying the GPL giving up liberty to purchase safety? :p

    42. Re:Open Source License by ArcadeMan · · Score: 0

      Only because he thought BSD meant "Bitch, Suck my Dick".

    43. Re:Open Source License by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it does prevent me from adopting your library to use in commercial code.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    44. Re:Open Source License by hodet · · Score: 1

      ...Also...how's that LLVM/Clang/WebKit/CUPS you're using?

      I must have bitcoin on the brain because I thought you were asking for a donation.

    45. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more likely that the younger generation, who presently make up the majority of developers, are less likely to care about 'legal shit' and therefore don't bother including a license at all (in the majority) or choose licenses which sound more 'free' (which the GPL does not, even if in the long run it means more freedom for all). Possibly as this generation ages we will start to see more thought given to the betterment of society and the GPL will start being taken more seriously. On the other hand, maybe the free software movement will turn out to be a fad and no developers will care about anything other than making money with their efforts, just like the rest of the world.

    46. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      It does. You can't take GPL sources and integrate them into a closed source product.

      While generally true, you can if it is for internal use only b/c then you are not distributing.

      If you're not distributing then it's meaningless to call it either "open source" or "closed source" - in fact, the former is probably more accurate since the source is available to anyone who has the software itself.

    47. Re:Open Source License by erice · · Score: 1

      If you write the code, the GPL doesn't prevent you from including it in commercial products. You're the copyright holder, so you can relicense it to suit yourself.

      Absolutely... as long as you are the copyright holder for all of the code. Otherwise you need to track down everyone else who contributed and get them to agree to the new terms. Or rewrite the bits that you don't own.

    48. Re:Open Source License by Bob9113 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So you're saying the GPL giving up liberty to purchase safety? :p

      More like using a gun to shoot a guy on a killing spree.

    49. Re:Open Source License by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      Yeah, that's NOT a good argument. Apple contributes to or created a bunch of BSD licensed projects, as the other reply pointed out. The part of OS X that is not open is Aqua, which is the equivalent of X and was never BSD licensed. If Mach, and all those other projects, had been GPL licensed Apple would never have used them, and never have contributed to them. CUPS in particular really benefitted when Apple bought it and hired Michael Sweet to develop it. WebKit also took off when Apple got involved, and now Google.

    50. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom.

      There's always been two different kinds of philosophies:

      1) You think that the user should have access to the source code (for the usual reasons of him being able to ask someone to review it or modify it or do it himself). If someone prevents them from having access to the source code, you don't want to be complicit in it. That's the FSF philosophy (Free Software, and the GPL as the legal hack that ensures it). It ensures the freedom of the *user* (i.e. the "end" user), you don't hold anything back from him.

      2) You think that the source code is only interesting for programmers and then only for those who can actually help you directly. You don't care about whether the users are fucked with or not, you want to be able to do whatever you want, including fucking with them yourself. That's BSD. Note that a possible end result is that there are mostly BSD-based black boxes in the market where no one but the select few who did the closing knows what it does in detail (still better than closed source, though).

      People who use the term Open Source (used in the title of the article itself) always cared only about 2) and then only for utilitarian reasons - and those are bound to be the majority.

      Not sure what's up with that headline, it's obviously wrong. The article is fine, though. Weird. Did someone else write the headline or what?

      Copyleft people (The FSF) would care about 1) for social reasons - so "better" really depends on your goals.

      Also for a slightly more egoistical point of view, whoever does 2) really is working as a gratis programmer for the benefit of corporations and to the probable detriment of their own future self (he'll probably buy a device one day which ostensibly contains his code but which is a black box even to him, one of the ORIGINAL core authors O_o).

      That said, network effects can still make it better for the parties to cooperate on a BSD codebase instead of closing it down. So sometimes the BSD works just like the GPL would, basically because of goodwill. What if shit hits the fan, though?

    51. Re:Open Source License by preaction · · Score: 1

      This is the best comparison I have ever read between the two philosophies. Invisible mod points to you, sir!

    52. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The outcome is that you don't need to memorize tables like:
      http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Licensing:Main#GPL_Compatibility_Matrix
      then, you can use the extra brain cycles for actual code.

    53. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, yeah you can as long as you don't distribute your software to the world. There's plenty of modified GPL'd software that's used internally in companies and organizations across the world. As long as the modified software binaries aren't distributed outside of your organization, you have no obligation to release the source code of your modifications. The GPL expressedly allows for that.

    54. Re:Open Source License by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      I believe that was the actual intent there...

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    55. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In GPL only world, the entry costs to producing and selling software become a lot higher. I cannot use an GPL code, so I must replicate all that functionality. You might think this is great since people will produce free software instead, but most people are motivated by money so what it really means is that people are more likely to work for a big company (which can overcome these entry costs) than start their own company.

      To give a concrete example, I was working on some software (that I planned to sell) that would use matrix operations. I first considered Gnu Scientific Library, but if I used this I would have to GPL my own code. Not very conducive to selling it! Then I found out about Eigen which is BSD licensed.

      Economically BSD is usually optimal (in the sense of maximizing societal welfare) because it creates a competitive market in the use of your software. You forgo your profits (usually when creating a library or framework) in order that the market can make use of the in the most efficient way. For example, your BSD software with a CLI and someone writes a GUI for it. That person can only charge more to the extent that people prefer a GUI. And furthermore, they can't charge too much more cause someone else might come along and write a GUI and sell it for cheaper.

      GPL *might* have some advantages in preventing commercial forks, and therefore be a better license for things that require economies of scale, and are under threat of forking, like Operating Systems.

    56. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, the "GPL-only" world that brought us Linux..... such a horrible world we live in...

    57. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      In fewer words: BSD is a license which benefits creators. GPL benefits consumers.

      At least that's the theory. In practice most consumers prefer commercial software.

    58. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 2

      The "free software" side's key interest is the freedom of users to modify their hardware and software,

      Wow, 10-year flashback from Slashdot of old, arguing about how this freedom is about as important as my right to appear pro se in a court of law. Anyone who is a user and does this with hardware or software has a fool for an engineer. If they are not a fool, they are a developer and then the developer freedoms espoused by permissive licenses become more important.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    59. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      Indeed. So people should stop pretending the GPL is about freedom and admit it's about restriction.

    60. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 0, Troll

      Stallman is a wannabe tinpot dictator who wants all software to be regulated according to his diktats. He wants to end software engineering as a career that you can actually earn a living from.

    61. Re:Open Source License by tlhIngan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In other words: this generation doesn't care for limiting other developers' choices in development in the way Stallman wanted. They prefer to just give away the code instead of forcing everyone who uses it to open their own work. Good for this generation, I'd say. They've seen the outcome of a "GPL-only" world, and they didn't like it.

      Or maybe they're tired of license confusion?

      You can have two codebases that are "GPL" but which cannot be mixed together because they violate the GPL.

      Yes, you can end up in this situation very easily, because GPLv2 is not compatible with GPLv3. You can combine GPLv2+ code with GPLv3 code (producing a GPLv3 work), GPLv2+ with GPLv3+ (producing GPLv3+ work), but NOT GPLv2 and GPLv3 because GPLv3 contains clauses that violate other clauses in GPLv2.

      Anyone with a reasonably large codebase has to re-verify that there is no GPLv2 code in there before moving over to GPLv3.

      Of course, there's also a chance that they're doing it because companies are scared of GPLv3 - I've seen companies enforce open-source policies because of GPLv3 where you're not allowed to use any GPL'd code - whether it's for internal use only or distribution without engaging lawyers and all that stuff.

      Of course, things like Android have also helped raise the profile of alternative open-source licenses - I'm sure a lot of GPL'd projects used the GPL because that's all they knew - that all FOSS software was GPL'd.

      (And for the record, I tend to use a mix of BSD, MIT and GPLv2 (not v2+ or v3) for my code. Heck, you can even use unmodified BSD (the GPL-incompatible one)).

    62. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an aside –I find it funny that the GPL guys are the ones taking offence here –after all, the article is the one with the aggressive stand point of "what can be done about" people using more permissive licenses than the GPL.

      The "GPL guys" (if there is such a thing) are "taking offence" (if that's really true) because the opening post in this thread is aggressively anti-GPL and doesn't recognise that different people might prefer different licences under different circumstances.

    63. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you so upset by people doing what they want with their own work?

      +1 Troll

      People who use the GPL are doing what they want with their own work. It is ridiculous for BSD people to claim that GPL people are trying to control what others do with their own work. Do closed source people share code with BSD people? Nope. Do GPL people? Nope. Are BSD users against closed code? Obviously not, so why do you have a problem with code that is more free than closed code again? Is it more tempting to you than code that you can't see at all?

    64. Re:Open Source License by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      Right, and my point was that the article itself is aggressively pro GPL, so it's no real surprise that the response was aggressively anti GPL.

    65. Re:Open Source License by Minwee · · Score: 1

      What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?

      When someone says they're taking their ball and going home, they need to leave the ball behind so that everyone else can keep on playing without them.

    66. Re: Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing prohibits the copyright holder from re-licensing code they released under the GPL. However, if you accept contributions you must secure the contributor's permission. Harmony's licenses can really help with that.

    67. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPL freedom is the liberals brand of freedom. Your only free to do the things they want you to do. Where BSD and MIT are free in the libertarian sense where free means your free to do what you want to do.

    68. Re:Open Source License by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wait, your first statement makes no sense. In a GPL *ONLY* world, you'd write GPL software. You'd use other GPL code to do so lowering your development costs. You'd likely charge for support and new additions of the software, but not selling it.

    69. Re:Open Source License by archshade · · Score: 1

      In GPL only world, the entry costs to producing and selling software become a lot higher. I cannot use an GPL code, so I must replicate all that functionality. You might think this is great since people will produce free software instead, but most people are motivated by money so what it really means is that people are more likely to work for a big company (which can overcome these entry costs) than start their own company.

      This makes no sense. In a GPL only world there is no other licences, so everthing is compatible. You would have to publish under the GPL as well (if you did not, it would no longer be a GPL only world). The GPL may make monetizing you work difficult (not impossible, but may make less, and you will have to give contius support).

      I know this was not the point you where making - you where thinking of of a world where the GPL is the only F/OSS liscence, as well as a load of commercial licenses. Well why should someone profit from my work, I put my time and effort into it, I gave it to the community and now someone wants to add somthing (reletively simple), and sell it. if this was not the intention why should I allow it. There are good reasons for the GPL.

      --
      Most Damage is done by people who are AWAKE
    70. Re:Open Source License by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course the BSD license is copyleft - it's using copyright law to insure that openness of your code is protected in a way that "public domain" doesn't protect. It's just that BSD-supporters disagree with gnu-worshipping savages over what "openness of your code" means.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    71. Re:Open Source License by hazah · · Score: 2

      So how does a user without freedom get to *hire* developers of their choice? Analogy fail.

    72. Re:Open Source License by radarskiy · · Score: 2

      "do you REALLY not understand that they are concerned with different "freedom" than you are?"

      For the Right-wing "Libertarians", they really don't understand. They believe that rights cannot conflict, therefore if two things that look like rights are conflicting then one is not a right.

    73. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I first considered Gnu Scientific Library, but if I used this I would have to GPL my own code

      If you think so, you're suffering a major failure of imagination. You can always find a practical way for non-GPL code to interact with GPL code that doesn't subject it to the GPL. Worst case, you build a light-weight wrapper around the GPL code and run it in a separate process. The beauty of it is that the authors of the GPL code can't even say nay: the GPL expressly forbids them from modifying it terms to disallow that higher level interaction.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    74. Re:Open Source License by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Ya know I never understood all the hate so many seem to have for the BSD license since all it does is make giving back an act of volunteerism instead of force.

      Can you close the code on github? Nope because no matter what you do the original code is there for all to use, and if they try to make a proprietary fork they will find it costs them more and more as the original gets farther away from the proprietary one thus costing them more than if they just gave back to the mainline.

      So I really don't see the reason for all the hate and teeth gnashing, after all Apple uses BSD and has given back a ton of improvements in return, in fact i can't think of any company using BSD that hasn't given back, they just aren't forced to give back like GPL. If you think GPL works better for you? Great, wonderful, that is fine and dandy, but the GPL like any other license doesn't work for everybody and everything which is why we have a pile of copyleft licenses.

      BTW has anybody else noticed that if you take a GPL lovers rant against BSD and just change a few words you get a classic MPAA/RIAA rant? Both cook up "doom scenarios" that never seem to materialize and both insinuate that anybody who doesn't support them must be a thief. I just find it interesting that their rants against BSD sound so similar to *.A.A rants, but maybe its just me.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    75. Re:Open Source License by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Citation please? Because i haven't heard any of the BSD guys saying bad things about the GPL on this thread, quite the opposite as its the GPL guys using "doom scenarios" as a scare tactic and appeal to emotion whereas the BSD guys are simply stating they want more freedom for the developers which is really all GPL VS BSD comes down to, one favors developers and the other end users.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    76. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An honest question.

      Why do you think you are entitled to take GPL software and not give anything back?

      Because that is what you are advocating here.

      BSD sucks from the developer's perspective: if you like doing gratis work for a for-profit entity then by all means go for BSD. If you want your software to thrive and be likewise available for others, use GPL.

    77. Re:Open Source License by Millennium · · Score: 1

      I'm curious now: what does BSD do to enforce openness of code that the public domain doesn't (presupposing the existence of a meaningful public domain, even though there are parts of the world there this doesn't hold)?

    78. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, actually it's because GitHub is largely made up of small scratch-the-itch projects, which also explains the lack of clear licensing. Now take your ideological ramblings elsewhere.

    79. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He doesn't want to give away his source, but he wants to use open source. There is a difference.

    80. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You certainly showed that strawman who's the boss. Smoothly too, the mods ate it all up. For future reference dear mods, Microlith didn't complain a thing and never made an argument about what "a lot of people" do or do not want to do with their code, nametaken did nothing but stating the obvious implying that Microlith somehow disagreed. Hopefully metamods will read this...

    81. Re:Open Source License by Miros · · Score: 1

      In a "GPL-Only" world, interpreting that as all software must comply with the terms of the GPL license, the concepts of 'ownership' and 'property' would not apply to software. There is a philosophical case to be made (but perhaps, not a practical one) that all scarcity in software is artificial and that notions of property are applied to it not validly but regressively.

    82. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A "GPL-only" world is an idealist vision that is currently impractical and is impeding what can be done. GPL has mostly been great, but there are times where it forces people to reinvent the wheel and sets a good project back a few years.

      A good example is most any work done that gets government subsidies, cannot be GPL'd because GPL is too restrictive to follow government rules of "public domain". So large multi-million-dollar projects must work with MIT/BSD/etc and GPL misses out while forcing researches to start-from-scratch in many cases because lack of community support of BSD/etc, comparatively.

    83. Re:Open Source License by idontgno · · Score: 2

      So, your argument is... circumvention?

      According to your reasoning, the LGPL has no place.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    84. Re:Open Source License by Miros · · Score: 1

      Why should you have any right to say what others do and do not do with the software that you write? Under the GPL, someone could add something relatively simple and then sell the software, they would just need to adhere to the requirements of the GPL in the process.

    85. Re:Open Source License by idunham · · Score: 1

      Similarly, I have a rule of thumb: if the license is longer than the software, something's wrong.

    86. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What user? NONE of the licenses in question are end user licenses. ALL of them are for developers, or anyone else that for some reason is interested in reading (probably cryptic and comment-free) source code to the programs they use. You are trying to blame developer A if developer B builds the code of developer A into their program without sharing, just because developer A let them.

    87. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, programmers would be making money on hourly basis (projects paid for by someone, support etc.) instead of through selling software as such. Less software would ever be distributed, but just used in-house. The only publicly distributed software would either be written by people earning their living through other means, or financed by the public purse.

      "Would you pay me to do those changes, knowing that everyone else then would get them for free?"
      "NO!" would be the answer to that, unless you had money to burn...

    88. Re:Open Source License by devent · · Score: 1

      You can take BSD code and integrate them into a closed source product.
      But how does BSD promote open source software? It does not.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    89. Re:Open Source License by Swistak · · Score: 1

      For me the only real problem with GPL is freedom to copy and redistribute.
      Only certain companies that do trully properietary stuff would mind open sourcing their software for end clients, there's no downside for them with that.
      The serious problem for small companies is that releasing software under GPL means you'll only get one client, or several ones. Then one of them will publish software on github and/or sourceforge, and that's it. That's the end of your revenue for software, there are other revenue sources of course, but I'm focusing on software here.

      So there most obvious option - to simply build software - invest 10000$ in it, and sell to 1000 clients for $10, is out of window. Becouse first one, or 20th one will publish it for free, and that'll be last sell you make.
      That leaves you two options:
      - you are forced to work for large corporations - who'll buy your GPL work and use it internally with no intention to redistribute, so your code is as good as closed source.
      - You publish shity code and charge for consulting/books/documentation. This is of course asshole option that most of "successful" GPL projects take. They make software so complicated, so hard to use, and so hard to modify, that you HAVE to pay for consulting and/or modifications becouse there's no fucking way you'll be able to modify it yourself. So again, might as well be closed source - at least closed source software used to have good documentation.

      Either way becouse of GPL you definitelly cannot make a living by creating software unless you're asshole.
      I'm not saying MIT/BSD is better in that regard, BUT, since it can be used in commercial software, you can publish your changes on less permisive licence(don't allow copyleft) but still publish source code, and contribute patches. Also since that software will be actually used in comercial settings there's higher chance that someone who is professional programmer will create fixes and/or introduce features.

    90. Re:Open Source License by Rhacman · · Score: 0

      The BSD license says, "I wrote some code, if you think it will help go ahead and use it."
      The GPL says, "I wrote some code, you may use it in exchange for joining my crusade to further my principles."

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
    91. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a GPL *ONLY* world, you'd write GPL software... You'd likely sneak in ads and gather and sell usage statistics to get some revenue.

      FIFY

    92. Re:Open Source License by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2
      Do closed source people share code with BSD people?

      Well, yes they do. They may not share all their code, but they often share fixes and enhancements. For infrastructure software, it makes a lot of sense to share your software - you need the infrastructure, others need the infrastructure - and you probably prefer to share the task of maintaining infrastruture rather than do it on your own.

      Applications may be a different case: and the GPL might be more appropriate.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    93. Re:Open Source License by KiloByte · · Score: 2

      Until you find your own piece of software closed so you can't use it, and a majority of users switch to that enhanced version by FooCorp.

      Or, try to cross-compile anything to OS X.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    94. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You'd likely charge for support

      And thus your motivation lies in creating hard to use software.

    95. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GPL is about freedom, by restricting others from adding new restrictions to code.

      BSD about is freedom to be taken advantage of by others adding new restrictions to your code.

    96. Re:Open Source License by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Aha, another partial fallacy the GPL people love to push.

      Technically true, however the moment you let someone else contribute to your source code (which, face it, is one of the points of open source software, no? or should every single contributor fork a project), you CANNOT, as they not also hold a GPL license right over the whole base, and unless everyone who contributes can agree, its locked under GPL..

      So the GPL simply values the rights of the software to be 'free' over and above the rights of the developers who created and/or contributed to it, to control how they want to use that code.

    97. Re:Open Source License by Kjella · · Score: 2

      Anyone who is a user and does this with hardware or software has a fool for an engineer. If they are not a fool, they are a developer and then the developer freedoms espoused by permissive licenses become more important.

      No, they aren't. How is a developer going to change the BSD code in OS X? The BSD freedom is the freedom to find all the little bits and pieces that are BSD code, recreate all the other parts and ship it on their own hardware. It doesn't do anything to enable a developer to modify any closed source project made with open source. The BSD fans just like to flip-flop on this subject, yeah either tons of people are using BSD but they have none of the open source freedoms or they have the BSD freedoms but almost nobody uses any of the *BSD distros. Maybe you can argue that the BSD code helps improve the quality of closed source software, but to the developer the BSD in the closed source software is just as closed as the rest.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    98. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 0

      Until you find your own piece of software closed so you can't use it.

      That is simply FUD, if i release software under a permissive license somebody can release a closed source version of it, they cannot close my own software.

    99. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      i haven't heard any of the BSD guys saying bad things about the GPL on this thread, quite the opposite as its the GPL guys using "doom scenarios" as a scare tactic

      I agree, I see that a lot on here especially in vein of 'permissive licenses are bad because corporations can take your software and close it', which is just complete FUD.

    100. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      It does. You can't take GPL sources and integrate them into a closed source product.

      You interpret "excluding projects" as "excluding projects from using GPL-licensed source code", whereby GP (probably) means "excluding" as "excluding from existence".

    101. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 0

      Do closed source people share code with BSD people?

      Yes, there's a little company in Cupertino called Apple who regularly contribute back to projects like webkit, apache and hundreds of others that they also include in their closed software and devices.

    102. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      I am not trying to blame developer A, only pointing that by choosing a license other than GPL developer A allowed developer B to close source his software and release it under a proprietary license, which obviously restricts user rights. So although developer A is not directly to blame by any choice of developer B, the license chosen by A increases developer B freedom and decreases user freedom.

      You may be comfortable with using software whose source cannot be examined by you or by anyone else but the developer, but that is your choice. By taking this choice from users you are restricting their freedom.

    103. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom.

      The BSD license says, "I will not use copyright to impose regulatory monopoly restrictions on you, but you can incorporate my work in a derivative work which imposes regulatory monopoly restrictions on others."

      The GPL says, "I will use the regulatory monopoly restriction of copyright in the narrowest way that prohibits the use of my work in any greater exercise of monopoly restrictions on others."

      The BSD license uses your copyright to maximize the freedom of primary recipients of your work. The GPL uses your copyright to maximize the freedom of secondary recipients of your work. Claiming that one is objectively more free betrays a lack of comprehension.

      This logic has never made ANY sense to me.

      Instead of software, lets talk about a short story, "A", we have on the table in front of us.
      You have a copy of A, I have a copy of A, we all have a copy of A because the author gave it away for free, allowing free reprinting.

      Under the BSD model, I have the freedom to write a book, "B", incorporating A in some form. I can sell it, and you can't reuse it.

      Under the GPL model, I can write book B using A, but I would have to give the whole thing away in the same spirit of A.

      You STILL HAVE A, but somehow this is an issue of YOUR freedom, me not giving you B (or B-A specifically) ? My incentive to use A at all is.. .what??

    104. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No my argument is that if the FSF wanted GPL software to be used only with other GPL software, they'd have written the license that way. They didn't. They wrote the license so that if you link with the code yours becomes GPL but if you merely use the programs together, it doesn't. So, make your improvements to the GPL code, release your improvements to the GPL code and if you want to keep the rest of your application closed source then do it. We'll appreciate what you chose to contribute and those of us with a brain will respect your choice for the things you chose not to contribute. We probably won't use the closed source parts, but we'll respect your choice.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    105. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 1

      I thought somebody might bring that up. They brought it up 10 years ago too. Typical users don't hire developers. Businesses hire developers.

      At the consumer level it's just not happening. Joe Sixpack doesn't have apps because he looked at his phone and said, "I need to hire somebody to write an app". Joe Sixpack is a price-taker in the open market, even with the GPL.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    106. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet you seem awfully aggressive towards the idea that people might want to put their own work under the GPL.

      No, it's in response to the article, read it! It's whining and lamenting the fact that people these days are preferring permissive licenses over restrictive licenses.

    107. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      You may be comfortable with using software whose source cannot be examined by you or by anyone else but the developer, but that is your choice. By taking this choice from users you are restricting their freedom.

      And if that is something those users cared about they would choose not to use that software, which is exactly what we have seen in the mobile space. They may be far from a majority but there certainly are people who choose Android for that reason and do utilise that freedom with things like cyanogenmod, and then of course you have the vast majority of people who don't care.

    108. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This line of reasoning also brings us down another familiar path--the cognitive dissonance among Free Software folks concerning "theft". When you discuss "piracy" they are all on board with the idea that "IP can't be stolen because it isn't property, and you still have the first copy", but when you mention permissive licensing they immediately complain that it allows companies to steal code.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    109. Re:Open Source License by lgw · · Score: 1

      By releasing a copyrighted work based on a public domain work, you can make it very hard for anyone else to also do so. Making a movie about some fairy tale that Disney has recently made a movie about is a legal minefield, and that's about the clearest possible case. IMO, a BSD license is just properly-working public domain.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    110. Re:Open Source License by top_down · · Score: 1

      I read the part about Open Source and it reads like it's written by an FSF activist. Stallman and his activists my have felt that Linux/Open Source was hijacking their cause but the reality is that the Linux strategy was just much more successful than the FSF one. Open Source was a rebranding but no coup: it pretty much covered the general attitude in the Linux movement.

      --
      Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
    111. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      find a ... way ... to interact with GPL code ... build a ... wrapper around the GPL code ... run it in a separate process

      All of which goes back to the simple point that GPL code is not free. It has a cost attached to it: your freedom to release your own code under the license of your choice or the time, energy, and efficiency of your solution wasted trying to work around the GPL's attempt to squelch your freedom to license your own code.

      If you want to support free - truly free - open source software, release your code under the BSD or similarly open license.

    112. Re:Open Source License by hairyfeet · · Score: 0

      He really does seem to have a hard on for making programmers live like dirt, don't he? i used to just think he was an old school communist, all that fawning he did about how wonderful Chavez and Castro were but as somebody pointed out he doesn't say doctors or CEOs or the janitor shouldn't get paid ONLY programmers. For a perfect example of this there is how when asked how a programmer could make a living if the software was given away he said they should make money on documentation...what happens when some of the programmers don't put the docs under GPL and instead charges for them? "Documentation should be free!".

      I don't know, maybe its because he had to "bless" the programmers who forked his own projects away from him, who knows, but he REALLY don't seem to like the idea of programmers getting paid for their years of education and hard work.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    113. Re:Open Source License by makomk · · Score: 1

      At the consumer level, there are enough users of most apps that at least one is probably a developer who can take over development if needs be. For example, there's an open source IRC app called XChat that's quite popular but no longer maintained by its developers, so someone forked it and released a new version HexChat.

    114. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 0

      The core BSD code "speaks" to the developer and says, "here's a foundation". Apple speaks and says, "here's what I built on this foundation". If what Apple built on the foundation is trivial, then your effort to duplicate it should be trivial. If what they built is non-trivial, then I have a hard time finding any sympathy with those who claim a right to somebody else's non-trivial work. That work is Apple's. They have a right to their own time and money.

      Other developers can chose to clone Apple's work. Some people might think that's a waste; but I think it's good to have more than one approach.

      FWIW, I agree that patents would probably end getting in the way and that's where I find common ground with the Free Software folks--software patents shouldn't exist. In fact, when I mentioned this to somebody who asked me why I thought software was special in this regard. I thought about it and realized it wasn't. My mind was changed; but not in the direction he thought. I concluded that there were many other classes of patents that ought to be abolished. Of course, that's another topic...

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    115. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The former being the equivalent of putting a gun to a doctor's head to force him to treat your illness without compensation because you have a "right" to healthcare.

      Users have the right to purchase the hardware they want and to do what they please with that hardware. They do NOT have the right to force Intel to give them the blueprints to create their own i7 CPU. Users have the right to run software licensed to them by a developer. They do NOT have the right to force developers to hand over the fruits of their labor for free. The GPL isn't about choice or freedom. It's about getting free shit from people.

    116. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I consider myself mostly in the BSD camp.

      a) I don't want to chase down every person who uses or modifies the software to get the changes. If the changes are necessary and useful, they should contact me.
      b) GPL often leads to fragmentation as everyone has to make patches for their own variation of operating system and libraries. With a BSD licence you just go get the source to the latest non-forked version of the library that you need and off you go. You see this on FreeBSD, go to the port you need, type make install, done. Most GPL software that does not invoke graphics libraries or UI also works just this easily. When I deal with linux I often have to deal with library dependencies and license shenanigans (much in the same way as the GNU C compiler was excised from FreeBSD.)
      c) BSD licenses are simple and easy to understand.

      Where I agree in principle with the GPL is where the license aims to avoid being co-opted by corporate pirates (see x264) for their own gain when patents are involved. For example, the x264 encoder is free, anyone using it can use it for free (though legally is debatable) but some companies decide to instead write a wrapper around the free part and then turn around and sell it. (which is basically ALL flash to mp4 programs.)

    117. Re:Open Source License by DragonWriter · · Score: 0

      Until you find your own piece of software closed so you can't use it

      How does that work again? I mean, I write software, I own the copyright, I release it under a permissive open-source license. Now, how does it ever become closed so that I can't use the software that I wrote and own the copyright to?

      and a majority of users switch to that enhanced version by FooCorp.

      Certainly, FooCorp (as well as BarCorp and BazCorp) can take my permissively licensed open-source work and make a derivative that is closed sourced (like, say, thousands of projects do with, say, SQLite, which goes beyond permissively licenseed open-source to being under a public domain declaration). And, maybe, more people use one of those (or at least, all of them collectively) than the the open source version. So what?

      If there is a community of developers who value open source and the project it will remain a viable open source project (see PD and permissive open source projects like the xBSD operating systems, PostgreSQL, SQLite, etc.) And if you don't have that, a GPL-style copyleft license won't make it any more viable as an open source project.

      A bunch of closed-source derivatives doesn't hurt that (indeed, a number of the makers of closed source derivatives may end up supporting the open-source project -- certainly that's definitely the case with SQLite.)

    118. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you REALLY think they hate freedom, do you REALLY not understand that they are concerned with different "freedom" than you are?

      I would have hoped not, but things like restrictions on exported symbols (prime example is the linux kernel) that prevent anything but GPL software from interoperating is clearly an attack on freedom. The fact that I, as a user, cannot install Linux and then install a proprietary driver for a piece of hardware because it was to utilize a particular kernel export that has been marked as GPL-only is the enforcement of an agenda at the expense of the user. Yes it would be nice if all drivers were open source, but this is not the way to achieve it.

    119. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your problem is in thinking that you can write GPL software. You can't. You can only just write software. Only when you decide to distribute your software, does a license come into play. Thus in a GPL only world, all software that is distributed would have to be under GPL.

      What GP was saying, is that most folks would just decide not to distribute, rather than do it under GPL. Thus, everyone will be coding everything in-house, since nothing is available. And thus again, the bigger the business, the more likely that business will have a sizable library of software available, thus hurting small projects, yada yada yada.

    120. Re:Open Source License by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      You can take BSD code and integrate them into a closed source product.
      But how does BSD promote open source software?

      It promotes open source software by demonstrating that it works, even when it is released under a license where someone could take the whole thing, add some features, and close it up.

      Successful permissive-licensed projects like PostgreSQL, Apache, etc., show that open source works, rather than just being something you go along with because you have to use some code that some upstream developer released under a license that forces their ideology onto anyone making derivatives of their code base.

      The GPL, OTOH, is the license you use when you don't believe open source works, and think people need a gun to their head to adopt the model.

    121. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Which is completely irrelevant to the argument. By allowing a restrictive license to exist you always give options to developer at the cost of taking choices from the user, even if some choices as "not using the software" still remain.

    122. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You GPLers are still pulling out world-class intellectual gymnastic routines trying to twist the simple facts around to suit your argument.

      BSD license: "Hey everyone, I wrote this great code. You can't sell my code, because I wrote it and it's mine. But if it helps you build something you want to sell, that's great! And if you want to give your code away too, great!"

      GPL: "Hey everyone, I wrote this great code. You can't sell my code, because I wrote it and it's mine. Also, if you use my code with your code, you can't sell your's either."

      The former is geared toward making code freely available to users and developers. Anyone can just have at it. They can't take your stuff and sell it, but they can otherwise do whatever they want with it. The latter is about getting free shit. It says that because I believe all software should be free, you have to believe that too or else you can't use what I wrote. It isn't about spreading freedom; it's about forcing people to give you free shit.

      BSD = helping everyone by choosing to donate your work
      GPL = demanding free shit from other people

    123. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Yes, of course the BSD license is copyleft

      No it isn't, copyleft specifies that derived works may be produced so long as they are released under a compatible copyleft scheme, BSD does not require this.

    124. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like these people never discovered the copy file command.
      Ok I'll send you my file but you have to promise you'll send it back or else I won't have my file.

    125. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't speak for general sentiments of my generation(20 somethings currently) nor am I some big shot dev(I only do numeric optimizations for open source libraries for games and simulation stuff), so I will only speak for my very small viewpoint: a lot of it has to do with not taking arbitrary rules seriously.

      Violent authority by definition depends upon fear and expectation of punishment. There is also a measure of respect for competency and relevance and understanding of the industry being controlled. None of that applies to the source behind the purpose of license: the courts.

      Sure, there most certainly is value in the service of contract negotiation and arbitration and all that. I'm not dismissing the value of such services; what I mean is that the courts don't very well fit the role of valid service provider. They are so helplessly far behind the incredibly fast paced and changing exchanges of ideas between people who are in the business of getting shit done. Anyone who has dealt with our legal system knows full well what its true purpose is and how it functions. I steer clear of nonsense like that. Even if I did want to withhold information and limit the way it was used by others, I wouldn't even consider using courts, police and jails to solve the problem for me. They protect their employers, which doesn't include me. So as long as I stay away from them or anyone that has their favor, I'm free to solve these usage problems in far more cooperative and peaceful ways.

    126. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical users don't hire developers. Businesses hire developers.

      That's because typical users are ignorant about the ability to find developers for help. A lifetime of social restriction has conditioned users in believing that software must have a master and that users must appeal to the master to get software fixed. Hiring a developer to develop software is no different to hiring an architect and builder to build your house. Users don't need any technical aptitude to practise their freedom for when they have it, it also becomes their responsibility to find the help they need.

    127. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The term steal is not a good term to use within the context of making a proprietary variant of a liberally licensed free software title. People who use steal in this context are either confused about the ideas in discussion or, are engaging in emotional or hyperbolic rhetoric. The better way to think about this idea would be, "liberally licensed free software makes it easier for people to commit the social injustice of proprietary software".

    128. Re:Open Source License by lgw · · Score: 1

      Copyleft is a broad concept, meaning different things to different people. Heck, the Principia Discordia was the first place I saw the term. It's not a synonym for "GPL".

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    129. Re:Open Source License by Mawen · · Score: 1

      To wrap GPL code in its own process and use it via IPC is one of the most bizarre pro-GPL arguments I have ever heard. 'You are not being creative [subversive] enough!' What??? Why not simply license the code as LGPL in the first place and let the other developers avoid this arbitrary hassle that forces a most likely inelegant design? (Really. If you don't answer that question I can't take you seriously. As it is my faith in humanity went down a notch.) In addition, people may very rightly think it is circumvention of the GPL, including the authors of the GPL code and the end-users, breeding ill-will. Hypothetical GPL authors who promote IPC wrapping of their libraries seems obnoxious to me: you can use and redistribute my code in your proprietary app but only if you jump through hoops and waste your life to the benefit of nobody. Lose-lose.

      (Of course, there could be a difference of perspective here: if you live in the world of the unix command line where so many things can be done with simple command line tools, and your role in life is shell script developer, doing simple command line things, then yeah the GPL is more a common part of life. If you are an application developer, using 10+ libraries, you do not want to have to create 10 auxiliary processes to run in the background and create 10 IPC server codebases. That is totally insane. And as an application developer, when I see someone license their middleware library as GPL (out of ignorance and not a cunning strategy for a future commercial dual license), I very quickly come to the conclusion that they are either ignorant newbies, or hippie idiots who don't understand how the world works and will end up with a userbase close to zero until someone slaps some sense into them. (And I have done that successfully.))

      I have a open source project that I licensed as CC0 / public domain (it is small and obscure, otherwise I may have selected BSD/MIT), and in the same breath said I welcome contributions. I also am saying "We'll appreciate what you chose to contribute and ... will respect your choice for the things you chose not to contribute," but without forcing them to jump through any hoops or threaten to sue them if they don't share their modifications (or fail to create an IPC wrapper around it...LOL) and decide not to jump through those hoops.

      I find that contributing back to BSD licensed open source projects is often in the end-developer's best interest anyway, as it can mean they don't have to maintain a private fork, and their changes will be regression tested and supported by the official team. (I won't even get into the nightmare of GPL and LGPL linking requirements on mobile devices and app stores. And in case you haven't noticed, the world is going mobile.)

    130. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      ok well what is your definition of copyleft?

    131. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Why not simply license the code as LGPL in the first place and let the other developers avoid this arbitrary hassle that forces a most likely inelegant design? (Really. If you don't answer that question I can't take you seriously. As it is my faith in humanity went down a notch.)

      When I release my own code, I put it in the public domain and I don't sweat the whole licenses thing. When you release your code, you can do it the way you feel like.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    132. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      By allowing a restrictive license to exist you always give options to developer at the cost of taking choices from the user, even if some choices as "not using the software" still remain.

      Yes, because the developer is the one providing the product or service, that product or service will not necessarily fit the needs of the user and does not need to.

    133. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      And it's often stated on there that Microsoft and Apple 'stole' the idea of the GUI and mouse from Xerox, apparently if you're a corporation you can 'steal' ideas.

    134. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Which again is completely irrelevant. The fact is that by increasing the license options of the developer, user rights are restrict. So increasing the developer freedom does not increase freedom in the general term, as I said from the beginning, but can actually restrict freedom as a result.

      And thanks to patent law restrictive licenses tend to affect far more than you think they do. By allowing someone to use your work to create a proprietary application you give this person the possibility to patent the result, thus preventing others from achieving similar solutions and further restricting user's rights. GPL prevents that.

    135. Re:Open Source License by AaronLS · · Score: 1

      "this generation doesn't care to preserve the freedom of others in using their computers, the way Stallman wanted"

      It's an ideal, and no one should diminish someone else's hard work just because they don't subscribe to the same ideal you do. They might even believe in the ideal, but we all find a different means to an end. They wrote the code, who the fuck are you to say they "don't care"? They care about contributing to the rest of us, and that is bigger than the rest of it. GPL vs. permissive is droplets in the ocean. They are giving to the rest of us unconditionally, and that IMO is the most gracious form of giving.

      "What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?"
      It becomes its own world and can't interact with the rest of the world. It's your choice, but it's not the only choice. If I take the time to submit fixes for something that is permissively licensed, I don't think "OMG someone might make money off this, I'm not preserving idealogy X", I think "Great, someone else in my situation who has a job writing closed source software will benefit from this. We can all help each other out." Yeh someone else is making money off my work, but that happens anyways. Even in the GPL world if someone pays for enterprise support, they are somewhere making a profit beyond what they are paying you. You give them a tool, they take it and make a bunch more money with it than they gave you. If you have a business model that allows you to make a living providing software as a service using you GPL'd code, someone else is just as capable of coming along, taking all your code, keeping it under GPL, and providing the same service. Since you did all the heavy lifting they don't have the same startup costs. Maybe they aren't as snide and condescending as you are, and get more customers than you, and soon put you out of business. No you are all butthurt cause someone took your code and made a bunch of money off of it, and you thought by making it GPL you would stop that from happening.

      Many of us can't force employer to become open source, nor would their business model work if it were open source. If the elitism here is any indication of what it'd be like to work in a GPL only world, then I wouldn't want to anyways.

    136. Re:Open Source License by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      As an aside –I find it funny that the GPL guys are the ones taking [offense] here –after all, the article is the one with the aggressive stand point of "what can be done about" people using more permissive licenses than the GPL.

      It's quite simple. We have the technology. The bog standard 2 clause BSD can be relicensed under the GPL. So, Just start a GPL project and use some BSD code, presto. Something has been done "about it". IMO, you should take issue with the metrics and statisticians -- They're what someone should do something about, WRT this article.

      Want to know some really sick shit? I release my game engine binaries to the public under the BSD -- Not the source code, just the binaries, I just take advantage of the BSD disclaimer basically (and give folks the power to hack the executable as they see fit). However, internally I've licensed the source code to our game dev collective under the AGPLv3! Hah! This way, I can't just take my ball and go home. The other developers can still use my code to continue making the game without me If I were to quit; However, they'd have to release the game as fully open source, even the server code. That means I'm free to leave and can rest assured that I'll still benefit from my code if they decide to use it without me. While I'm in the collective I'm the only one capable of compiling the AGPL sources into binaries that can be distributed to the end users as "closed source" BSD. The other devs can't do this, nor do they care to -- They'd rather just have me make the builds anyway.

      In a way I've put myself in charge of the project's software ethics, and honestly, I'm the best person to do that since I have the end users in mind at all times when I write the code. The effect is that I know the code I'm writing isn't going to go to waste, and will be used in the "best" way possible. I can still use it, and even if the project flops any one of us devs can continue it on our own. So, I've used the AGPL to ensure the end users eventually get the power to use the source code, even if I'm not ready to give them that freedom just yet.

      Why would I not give the users the sources? Well, for anything other kind of application I would and do, but this is for a GAME, and online games are the only software with which preventing the users from manipulating the software on their own machines isn't inherently evil -- The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few in that the few can directly ruin the many's games via cheating. There is a small yet significant group of cheating assholes -- Not all hackers can exercise the self control to keep their hacks on their own machines, and when they take them online they're changing other folks experiences in ways the other players may not want them to do. The fact is that i've seen a great increase in cheating when the game sources became available rather than when they stay closed. I've seen it time and again, and even in the most noble BZFlag cheating is rampant.

      It's not that I don't trust end users, it's not that I don't trust my fellow developers, it's that I shouldn't have to trust them, and the BSD and GPL both give me the tools I need to actually have peace of mind, sickening isn't it? What's the point of internally AGPL licensing if the sources aren't ever released? Well, like I said, I would love to open the sources if I could trust folks not to cheat (and for single player games I do release sources) -- Thus the plan is to open source the past versions that are no longer at parity with the current networking systems to have less cheaters in the online games. Yeah, yeah, "security through obscurity" save it for the echo-chamber, fool -- All security is obscurity, the more bits of obscurity the more secure it is. Closed binaries provide a few more bits of obscurity thus are more "secure".

      Once ANY of the devs has had enough of the closed source benefits, ANY of us can release the code under the AGPL.
      So, from where I'm sittin

    137. Re:Open Source License by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      The GPL doesn't exclude closed source projects.

      It does. You can't take GPL sources and integrate them into a closed source product.

      That entirely depends on the degree of integration. In many cases, you can take a GPL project in its entirety, package it with your closed source software, and sell it - as long as you distribute the source code for that GPL project (not necessarily the rest of your codebase) and any modifications you made to it. However, that ability gets incredibly blurred as you get more tightly integrated.

      From what I know, the GPL was designed so that once your code was free, it could never be closed again. It wasn't intended to force a large application that uses one tiny GPL library to make its entire source code available. Unfortunately, some GPL-based companies (like MySQL-AB) have interpreted it that way. Even if they're wrong, legally speaking, it'd take a court case to determine it.

      Using the GPL opens you up to the possibility of someone challenging your definition of a "derived work". They may by wrong, but they could still drag you through court ($$$ and reputation). Using the BSD opens up no such possibility. Therefore companies prefer using BSD-derived licenses.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    138. Re:Open Source License by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      The GPL can't be used if you want to produce software for sale, true. However it's not just hobbyists and software-sellers who produce software. A huge amount of software is made by companies for internal use only, something that many people around here seem to keep forgetting. For that, GPL is fine: since the GPL only requires you to distribute source code to users that you distribute the binary code to, for internal use, that amounts only to making the source code available to your coworkers, which is already a given in a company.

    139. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      If you think it's irrelevant then don't bother discussing it. The fact is increasing the freedom of the developer can decrease the freedom of the user if the developer chooses to exercise that freedom, increasing the freedom of the user decreases the freedom of the developer. Ultimately the user can choose whether the product or service of the developer suits them and the developer can choose what freedoms to grant the user. Neither party is or should be forced into doing anything.

    140. Re:Open Source License by VirtualVirtuality · · Score: 1

      I have nothing against permissive licences, nor proprietary code unless it tries to lock-in users through proprietary file-formats. However your complaints about having to replicate functionality is what GPL actually prevents in terms of open source. You have to replicate the functionality because you want to keep your code proprietary, anyone who wants to create a similar type of program as yours will have to replicate the functionality you have written. So while you decry having to rewrite GPL licenced functionality you clearly have no problem with others having to replicate your proprietary code.

    141. Re:Open Source License by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      I don't see how Linux "hijacked" the FSF cause: the Linux kernel uses the GPL (v2) license. If anything, it's a smashing success for the GPL as a license, the license which the FSF prefers the most. The only thing Linux made the FSF look bad on was the HURD project, and they kinda stole their thunder as "Linux" became a catch-all term to describe systems using the Linux kernel (except Android of course), while almost no one refers much to GNU.

    142. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      That's not a troll. The original article is a troll for implying that only GPL is true open source.

    143. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      They hate our freedoms!

    144. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Sure they should. That is why there exists regulation. I can't sell spoiled food even though people can choose not to buy it. I can't even give it away.

      Making developers show exactly what their piece of software does within the user machine, by releasing the source, is just common sense. GPL accomplishes just that and by doing so increases the freedom of the user and his control over his equipment, which is what it is designed to do.

    145. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Really the only legitimate use for a free license in my view is to indemnify the authors, everything else can be identical to public domain and it would be perfect. But some people worry that their name will be forgotten or that someone might use the software in ways that weren't intended. Public domain is more honest, you just give it away without concern for your own ego.

      Personally, I don't even care if something larger is used by someone or plagiarized or sold for a profit. You can't really share software if you're encumbering it with limitations on the sharing. Most people should have learned in kindergarten that you just share without being prompted, without requiring conditions before sharing, and you also share with the kids who aren't your friends.

    146. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The FSF people honestly don't see the difference between open source and copyleft, or free software and copyleft.
      It's fine and great if other people have ideologies that differ from mine, so I don't care if some people prefer GPL over other license. However it is highly annoying when they keep proselytizing about how everyone else is wrong.

    147. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I don't know... GPLv4 sounds scary. Remember GPLv3 was all about clobbering TiVo even though they were following the spirit of the rules as most people understood them.

    148. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      I can't sell spoiled food even though people can choose not to buy it. I can't even give it away.

      Failed analogy, spoiled food is by definition not fit for consumption.

      Making developers show exactly what their piece of software does within the user machine, by releasing the source, is just common sense.

      No, developers can do that, and if it's such a good thing then users will choose it, but because they aren't choosing it you want to force users to choose that option.

    149. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      I can't sell spoiled food even though people can choose not to buy it. I can't even give it away.

      And closed source programs can contain anything inside and be unfit for consumption. The only way you can know that is by opening them.

      No, developers can do that, and if it's such a good thing then users will choose it, but because they aren't choosing it you want to force users to choose that option.

      This is just a fallacy. You are not giving users any more choice by giving them restrictions. It is an oxymoron.

    150. Re:Open Source License by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      In GPL only world, the entry costs to producing and selling software become a lot higher.

      No. The cost to produce and sell software is the same, regardless of license. The thing that's more expensive is leveraging artificial scarcity. The work to make a program open vs closed is the same, but under a GPL world folk would simply need to ensure they'll be paid for the work before they actually do the work. A car mechanic does an estimate, and you agree on the price, then they do the work. Car mechanics don't run about in the night fixing cars then expecting people to pay for the work they've done just because they've done it.

      Economically BSD is usually optimal (in the sense of maximizing societal welfare) because it creates a competitive market in the use of your software. You forgo your profits (usually when creating a library or framework) in order that the market can make use of the in the most efficient way. For example, your BSD software with a CLI and someone writes a GUI for it. That person can only charge more to the extent that people prefer a GUI. And furthermore, they can't charge too much more cause someone else might come along and write a GUI and sell it for cheaper.

      You must have failed Economy 101. Infinite Supply = Zero Price, regardless of cost to create. If you work for a big company making software you are like the mechanic. Someone has agreed to pay you for your work. The Publisher typically doesn't get the money up front from the customers, so they then must leverage artificial scarcity to make sales. The Publisher MUST make back MORE money in sales than it cost to actually make the software to just to justify their own existence, yet they add NO significant benefit to digital products. That they then extract MORE money from the society for NO BENEFIT is NOT OPTIMAL.

      Your problem is a common one. You're using a labor funding model that leverages artificial scarcity and trying to use the anti-artificial scarcity GPL. What's economically optimal -- What's been proven in ALL OTHER LABOR MARKETS is that you get paid for the work you do, but only ONCE. Instead of gambling with your future, you could have it assured --- You could seek funding for your work before you do it, and have the freedom to select whatever damn license you wish.

      Furthermore, you have no idea what you're even talking about when you say it would cost you more to write your code using GPL libs vs BSD libs. Are you fucking daft? You had two options, you chose the BSD but could have easily chosen the GPL code! You said so! Cost to create wasn't the deciding factor, no, the deciding factor was that you wanted to leverage artificial scarcity to sell your work. In a GPL world you would simply do like EVERY OTHER labor market does and get assurances of payment up front, do the work, and get paid for doing it. The COST -- The funds it takes to ACTUALLY do the WORK that you did would NOT cost you more to do! The work YOU did would be the same -- You said so yourself! You COULD have used the GPL library to make the same program. The WORK wouldn't have COST you any more to do it, just that you would have to market your work differently.

      Your failure of understanding is due to ignorance. Don't take that word as negative. You're simply ignorant (willfully so?) of other funding models that do exist, funding models that THE ENTIRE REST OF THE LABOR WORLD have been using successfully for time immemorial. You've simply put them right out of your head and then made assumptions based on only one way to market labor. You're treating intangible effort tokens as physical items and applying the physical concepts like scarcity -- That's dumb. You can't sell Ice to Eskimos. Why do you think selling BITS to folks with COMPUTERS is a viable business strategy? Hint: It might be right now, but no, it really isn't a good idea. The Eskimos are waking up to the fact that they're surrounded by ice. What's scarce isn't the

    151. Re:Open Source License by marcello_dl · · Score: 1

      IMHO they ARE the outcome of a GPL world, and take for granted what others fought for. So they have their compilers, distros, and stuff all ready.

      If all they had were BSD and apple had just sued GNUstep... er... BSDstep, the only compatible free alternative, for patent violation, they would care a bit more about licensing issues.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    152. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, everyone should use GPL software this way, and essentially negate the copyleft provisions, contributing back only what they want to?

      Why have the copyleft at all then? All it does is force needless contortions.

    153. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      And closed source programs can contain anything inside and be unfit for consumption.

      Can, but spoiled food is by definition unfit for consumption.

      This is just a fallacy. You are not giving users any more choice by giving them restrictions. It is an oxymoron.

      No, it is proof that the system you want is not what users want so you resort to suggesting we force them down that path, making GPL software the only choice for users.

    154. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      According to Richard Stallman, linking binaries compiled with GPL code is considered the same as using the GPL code in your application, meaning that you are not allowed to link GPL code to non-GPL code.

    155. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he means 'effectively' closed. It may still be open but nobody cares because they get their version of Foo from FooCorp, not you.

    156. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Can, but spoiled food is by definition unfit for consumption.

      And therefore there are laws making mandatory for the seller to include all the information necessary to guarantee to the buyer that it is not spoiled. Additionally the government checks the places that sell food and their stock for irregularities. The only way to achieve both these goals regarding software is by opening them so they can be properly examined.

      No, it is proof that the system you want is not what users want so you resort to suggesting we force them down that path, making GPL software the only choice for users.

      Users do not choose licenses, developers do. Users at most accept the restrictions to use a given software. Defending GPL is not trying to make users choose a given program, but making sure that regardless of what program a user chooses, the developer won't be able to restrict the user right to use it as he wishes and know what it is doing.

    157. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      You are confusing ex ante scarcity with ex post scarcity. Once I write the software, the most efficient thing would be to make it open source since the marginal cost is 0. However if I do this, then I have less incentive to write the software in the first place. I'm not sure if this covers everything you wrote, perhaps try to cut down on the length and make your points clearer?

    158. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      And therefore there are laws making mandatory for the seller to include all the information necessary to guarantee to the buyer that it is not spoiled.

      No they don't, this would require information on every ingredient and its amount, something that most definitely is not provided.

      Defending GPL is not trying to make users choose a given program, but making sure that regardless of what program a user chooses, the developer won't be able to restrict the user right to use it as he wishes and know what it is doing.

      And they can, if they choose GPL software, but you want to eliminate that freedom and restrict them to software that fits the business model of the GPL.

    159. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >software consults
      >don't earn a living
      >people are magically gifted with programming prowess
      >don't need to hire programmers
      Cool story bro

    160. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      I think that BSD is good for libraries, and GPL or proprietary code is good for end products. Everyone deserves to get rewarded for their work. However, an altruistic person might decide to make their library BSD so others can use it in their products. If they make is GPL, then less people will decide to use it, so their altruism will be less effective.

      Also, I'm somewhat surprised by people's reaction to my using a personal example? Aren't many people here coders who work for companies, and therefore write proprietary software? How is it different that I planned to sell it myself instead of working for a wage for a company?

    161. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The GPL says, "I wrote some code, you may use it in exchange for joining my crusade to further my principles."
      I don't think Torvalds chose the GPL because he was interested in RMS's crusade for free software.

    162. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      No they don't, this would require information on every ingredient and its amount, something that most definitely is not provided.

      Sure it is. And for everything. Ever cared to read the side of your Soda Can?

      And they can, if they choose GPL software, but you want to eliminate that freedom and restrict them to software that fits the business model of the GPL.

      Nah, I want them to choose whatever they want without having to accept arbitrary restrictions from the developer. The only one whose choice is hindered by GPL is the developer, never the user, but apparently you are too dense to understand that even after it being explained time and again to you.

    163. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      I personally have nothing against for profit companies, and I'm as willing to do things for free for them as I am for end users. If I were to choose between GPL or BSD for my own work, my main consideration would be what the total benefit to society would be, including the benefit to the for-profit corporations who use that code. I wouldn't expect the people who used the code to give something back, because that wouldn't be why I made it open source in the first place.

    164. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      just wanted to add I never claimed to be entitled to anything, I was just saying what I thought was most efficient? Does this really have to be so personal? I know most people here spend there time writing GPL software, but as part of the tiny minority who either try to sell software or earn a wage from companies that do, I feel like I'm receive an undue amount of animosity.

    165. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Nah, I want them to choose whatever they want without having to accept arbitrary restrictions from the developer.

      Then you limit freedom of choice to software that fits the business model of the GPL...why are you having such a problem comprehending that?

      The only one whose choice is hindered by GPL is the developer, never the user, but apparently you are too dense to understand that even after it being explained time and again to you.

      No I am well aware the GPL only hinders the choice of the developer, I've never disputed that, what you can't seem to understand is that limiting the choice of the developer ultimately limits what they produce and thus the available choice to the user.

    166. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Then you limit freedom of choice to software that fits the business model of the GPL...why are you having such a problem comprehending that? No I am well aware the GPL only hinders the choice of the developer, I've never disputed that, what you can't seem to understand is that limiting the choice of the developer ultimately limits what they produce and thus the available choice to the user.

      Nope again. You seem to be under the illusion that software that is not GPL today wouldn't exist if the developers were forced to comply with GPL standards. Maybe some wouldn't, but most software companies would adapt rather than close doors, as they would have only these two options, rest assured, and the users would gain a lot from the exchange.

    167. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Nope again. You seem to be under the illusion that software that is not GPL today wouldn't exist if the developers were forced to comply with GPL standards.

      That's not an illusion at all, and stating it as though it is fact just shows how disingenuous you are intent on being to try to argue your point. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your argument, however if the GPL were of measurable benefit to users and viable for software developers then they would move to it without being forced, but they don't, in fact as TFA points out even much of the free software community doesn't want the GPL. You're still trying to force something people currently choose to avoid.

      Maybe some wouldn't, but most software companies would adapt rather than close doors, as they would have only these two options, rest assured, and the users would gain a lot from the exchange.

      And any that do would probably just move to SaaS.

    168. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      That's not an illusion at all.

      It is an illusion, but you are entitled to hold to it with all your strength while you hide your head under the pillow.

    169. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile I suppose you'll lead some worldwide mandate and enforcement that prevents anyone from distributing closed source software...you're a joke.

    170. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A BSD proponent might argue that recipients of her work have a free choice of becoming primary or secondary recipients, and in the event they have freely chosen to become secondary recipients they are not being deprived neither of her work nor of the possibility to choose again.

    171. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      Maybe in the warped reality in which you believe.

    172. Re:Open Source License by schnell · · Score: 1

      Closed source programs can contain anything inside and be unfit for consumption. The only way you can know that is by opening them.

      Did you read every line of source code to OpenOffice before you used it the first time? How about Firefox or Chrome? Have you scrubbed the change logs on each Linux kernel's source update before compiling it?

      No?

      Neither did I, nor does anyone else. Even the developers of most complex software projects can't find the bugs or issues without multiple code reviews, for frack's sake. So please stop using this line of argument, it make us all look silly to imply that F/OSS advocates say our software is superior because my grandmother who calls computers "internets" can check the source code of her software for QA.

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    173. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Well off you go then, go do something about it, but you won't will you? You know and accept that what you're suggesting is ridiculous, unworkable and unwanted, which is why you'll never do anything about it anyway.

    174. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      If it makes you feel better to believe in this, suit yourself. Your pillow is always there for you.

    175. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By allowing a restrictive license to exist

      So we should get rid of restrictive licenses like the GPL.

    176. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Hiring a developer to develop software is no different to hiring an architect and builder to build your house

      Right. Which is why most people buy houses in tracts, or pre-existing houses. Very few people who buy a house ever go through the whole development process on their own. It's either too expensive or too difficult and time consuming; just like developing your own software or hiring somebody to develop software.

      Note that while "Free Software" purists believe it's immoral to trade in proprietary software, I don't believe it's immoral to trade in "free" or "open source" software. I believe we should all have a choice.

      Now go back to that housing analogy and it's like they're saying that inexpensive tract homes and apartments are immoral and that all housing should be custom designed for the occupant (or in the case of an apartment, the community with lots of hands-on interaction from future occupants as opposed to building on spec). In other words, they're making a moral judgement on the processes that deliver products to consumers. They're making that judgement in favor of a process that works well for some people, but not for everybody.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    177. Re:Open Source License by strikethree · · Score: 1

      The issue is that controlling other people is evil (copyright is control). GPL is fighting fire with fire, and that is reasonable... but still just as evil as what it is fighting. Perhaps most people just do not want to participate in the fight and show it by using a BSD style license?

      The GPL is genius thinking: Turn Copyright against itself... but it is still copyright. Ultimately, we do not have to play with the powermongers. BSD for the win.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    178. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      But it's the truth isn't it, you're not actually going to do anything towards trying to implement this fantasy of yours are you?

    179. Re:Open Source License by BetterThanCaesar · · Score: 1

      They wrote the license so that if you link with the code yours becomes GPL

      No. They wrote the license so that if you link with the code and distribute it, yours would have to be released as GPL or any compatible license. It doesn't become GPL. You can't be forced to release the code, only to stop distributing the software linked to GPL software without following the license.

      Sorry if I sound angry, but it's wording like that that enables people to get away with calling the GPL viral and cancerous.

      --
      "Stop failing the Turing test!" -- Dilbert
    180. Re:Open Source License by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Not to mention if that were true why would Apple have given so much back to BSD like CUPS or Webkit? with BSD you don't HAVE to give back but simple logic will show how the "ZOMG they'll close it ZOMG" is complete and utter strawman bullshit.

      First of all they can't "take" anything, they can only get a copy same as everyone else so the original is still there and will keep growing as long as devs care enough to keep developing it. Second unlike GPL if all you need is a single library and don't need updates? You can do what you want but you don't have to stick a gun to their head like the GPL because if they want updates and their changes to be included in future releases its in their best interest to share.

      But in the interest of full disclosure i don't like the GPL because i think RMS is petty, vindictive, and I would argue is jealous of those that can make a good living as a programmer since his only two projects ended up being forked away from him and I think his extreme left worldview (which is really pro communism which you can see by the glowing articles he has written on Chavez and Castro) also has something to do with his dislike of programmers making a living.

      What this has to do with the GPL is simple, we got to see the petty and vindictive parts when he decreed TiVo was an "evil" company (even though they were following the letter of the GPL) and his myopic "you are with me or against me" worldview affects everything he does, see his brass balls on making a "Windows Sins" website like he is the fucking pope and all that ends up going into the GPL and making it more divisive and turning more developers off of FOSS. A rational person would see that GPL usage is dropping like a stone and ask "What changed that devs don't like?" and would actually have a sit down with devs and make the GPL more user friendly for EVERYBODY but in RMS' mind he is ALWAYS right and you are ALWAYS wrong if you don't follow him so compromise simply will never happen.

      So to paraphrase the arrogant statement he made before Steve Jobs body was even cold "I won't be glad when RMS is dead but I'll be glad he's gone" as frankly i think both the GPL and FOSS in general will end up better off without him, he is just too polarizing and comes off as a religious loonie...oh and the fact he let himself be filmed on fricking stage eating toe cheese like a crazy homeless guy certainly doesn't leave a great impression.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    181. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who among BSD proponents doesnt get what Stallman et al are going for?

      All of them, because the keep being surprised when companies screw them over by locking up the code they released under BSD licenses.

    182. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've seen the outcome of a "GPL-only" world, and they didn't like it.
      ^ Who dosn't like it ? Who here think 100% GPL world will be a bad thing?!

    183. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, they haven't. They've just noticed that licenses like BSD is better open source license than GPL. There's a simple reason for it too - BSD license is truly in the spirit of freedom. Anyone, either open or closed source projects, can use BSD licensed code.

      That analysis is as shallow as saying that a society without laws or police is "more free", because no one is telling you what to do or not to do. Regardless of what actual sub-perfect police does, law enforcement is a means towards MORE freedom, as GPL is. The notion of "everyone can do whatever they please" is ridiculous. Anyone's freedom ends where someone elses begins: I can not be free to kill anyone I want, if my potential victims have the right to live. And vice versa: no one is really free to live, if someone is free to kill. Laws and law enforcement exist so some "rights" or "liberties" are cut off (i.e. killing, stealing, raping), in order to preserve rights or liberties (right to live, right to own, sexual freedom). The kind of "free software world" that BSD-like (non-copyleft) licenses envision is akin to a world with no laws to ban killing, stealing or raping: apparently "more free", but actually quite the opposite.

      Of course one can argue that proprietary software is far from "killing, stealing or raping", and maybe proprietary software is desirable, and free software is not. Then go for that argument, but do not insult the true meaning of "freedom" to defend that non-copyleft licenses are "more free".

    184. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL guys' "doom scenario" when it comes to BSD licensed code, is said BSD code ending up in a Microsoft or Apple product, with an EULA preventing the end user from modifying the code.

      I'm pretty sure that has happened, with both Microsoft and Apple.

    185. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can not distinguish between the following two cases, then it's your cognitive processes that are dysfunctional:

      1) Entity A produces and distributes software X. Entity B aquires a copy. Entity B wants to modify his/her copy of X and pass it to entity C, for no personal benefit, and never claiming that he (B) did it. Entity A wants to forbide it, and force C to aquire X from them.

      2) Entity A produces and freely distributes software X, with the only requirement that if you get it freely, you must pass it on freely, and mention the true author. Entity B aquires a copy of X and wants to include it in their commercial product Y, redistribute it claiming they did it, and imposing restrictions on it.

      In the first case (so called "piracy"), the author (A) wants to defend his/her benefit (legitimately), against some end user's (C), whereas the intermediary (B) does the opposite (benefit C at the cost of A).

      In the second case (so called "stealing code"), the author A wants to defend the benefit of the end user C at the cost of his/her own, whereas some intermediary B wants to obtain benefit from C by claiming someone else's works as his/her own.

      I am not saying that either or both are right or wrong. I'm just saying that equating both is like saying "generosity" and "egoism" are equal. They might be both "valid", but the will never be anything else than opposite.

    186. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... By Bill Gates and his fans, who completely fail to acknowledge that the Windows EULA doesn't allow you to build and distribute software that contains Windows either.

      (and before someone says: "But there are developer licenses that allows this" - many GPL projects have these too (MySQL used to be an example, not sure how they currently do). Then people complain that they have to either follow the GPL or pay for a license.

    187. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In your example, the BSD was not "optimal" for the "society welfare". It was optimal for YOUR welfare, and detrimental for anyone elses. Had Eigen not existed, you would have had to use GSL, and then give a GPL license to your software, making it free and producing a benefit for the whole society. Instead, you got away with producing non-free software because some poor misguided guy apparently believed in all this "BSD is more free than GPL" BS, and gave that license to his work. Ironically his "maximum freedom" fanatism (thus choosing the BSD license) allowed you to make non-free a software that could have been GPL.

      Also ironically, you didn't give a BSD license to your software, did you? You praise it as "more free", but only because it allowed you to produce something that was non-free. The idea of passing on this freedom never crossed your mind, apparently.

    188. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are these "most people", and what institution did they escape from?

      Oh, you mean "the people who never read the GPL"?

      The GPLv2 specifically said "including everything needed to build the binary". The signing key is needed to build a signed binary. To anyone who read the GPLv2 and isn't a lawyer, that should be quite clear. Unfortunately, TiVo had a lawyer who was willing to bet the company that he could convince a judge that this is not what it said, and building a binary that cannot run (because it isn't signed, which is required by the hardware). The lawyers at the FSF had a good look at the GPL, and ended up concluding that that part might need some clarification, so that even a lawyer could understand it.

      Of course, you would also have to mean "people who never asked what the FSF was about".

      You know, the organisation that created the GPL. The people who felt that this was necessary, after an episode with a printer at the other end of the building, with no way the software developers could modify the firmware, to have the printer inform them about a paper jam.

      Yeah, those people might believe that the spirit of the GPL was never about preventing such a situation where you can't modify the embedded software.

      They are also pretty unlikely to be writing free software in the first place.

    189. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think running your matrix operations in a separate process is in any way an acceptable solution, then you either suffer from a major failure of common sense, or don't have a fucking clue what a matrix is.

    190. Re:Open Source License by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Why should you have any right to say what others do and do not do with the software that you write? Under the GPL, someone could add something relatively simple and then sell the software, they would just need to adhere to the requirements of the GPL in the process.

      Because legally those rights exist and will be used against you if you don't?

    191. Re:Open Source License by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Isn't this all based on the "linking is integration" argument which depends heavily on a court precedent in the first place?

      I'm pretty sure previously you could link to GPL libraries without having to be GPL yourself, since one was regarded as a self-contained platform.

    192. Re:Open Source License by bryonak · · Score: 1

      Not to mention if that were true why would Apple have given so much back to BSD like CUPS or Webkit?

      You do realise that Apple hasn't given CUPS and WebKit "to BSD"? And you do realise that both CUPS and WebKit (KHTML) are GPL licensed projects? Would Apple give anything back to the community if these two were BSD licensed? Maybe, you can't tell... they've done so with some (I'd like to point out gcd as an "offer back to" FreeBSD, which is very neat) but not others.

      The rest of your comment is, sadly, just ranting, and mostly not worth addressing. But please at least get your facts right.

    193. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of the emotional scenarios derived from this are certainly FUD, but isn't the statement you have written right there simply a fact? There's no FUD about it directly.

    194. Re:Open Source License by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      It's about the freedom of the user not the developer.

    195. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Please do. Stallman wrote the damned thing because he didn't like people treating some code he wrote and released like it was MIT licensed. He didn't want them to do that. Take his code and put it in something else and sell it. -- Frankly I want my code to just work. If your code just works, I'd prefer to skip the work part of my building and just use your code. But if you licensed it wrongly, doing so shackles my ability proceed in a good many cases. And in the cases it doesn't, I still have to think about it and write it a different way or whatever, and I don't want that headache. -- I just want it to work.

      Since I'd prefer to grab code under MIT license, I release code under that license. Heck I've released some under public domain. And for some projects where you like what somebody did and you'd like to expand it, even rereleasing it, and integrate it into some particular project of yours. If it's GPL you likely shouldn't bother. It's a pain, and it'll be a pain for whoever uses your code later. I've remade code from scratch and released it under MIT accordingly in that situation.

      So yeah, GPL feels kind of like a noose. There's nothing wrong with taking some shortcuts, using some good code, and making some money without worrying about anything.

    196. Re:Open Source License by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Even if we ignore the argument about whether users should have the freedom to mix free and non-free components in a peice of software. One big problem with the GPL IMO is it has no exceptions for software under other free licenses. So I can have two peices of software both of which are "free" per the FSFs definition yet i'm forbidden from mixing them to create a single larger work.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    197. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why I come to Slashdot.

    198. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a big infrastructure project is written under the BSDL, someone who writes mostly GPL code (e.g. me) isn't going to fork it over a bugfix. I'll send the patch under the BSDL. Does that mean that a GPL person has shared his source code with the BSD folks? No, since I've actually sent BSDL'd code, just like a proprietary vendor does when sending a patch instead of me.

      The point is that every collaboration towards BSD projects from closed source people is strictly contained within the collaboration of GPL people towards those projects. (contained because the BSD folks can look and learn from the GPL code since it's open)

      So I'd settle for "No, they don't", unless you want to give a "contribution free pass" to anyone, which is too fuzzy for my taste.

    199. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple contributes to webkit because they have to contribute back to a GPL project. Also, Apple usually overstates their "contributions", which are often just "usage". http://www.links.org/?p=168

    200. Re:Open Source License by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      If there was only GPL libraries I might not have bothered to build the product, and that would have affected not only my welfare but also the consumers who bought it.

      This was the point I was making in my first paragraph. I think that this is the reason many people use the BSD license for their code. Another is that they want to get as much recognition as possible (maybe so a for profit company will hire them, who knows?) and BSD license will result in the most widespread use of their software.

    201. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't mind either way, it only must be just.

      If I do have the right to say what others can do with my software, it's my own sovereign choice and you shouldn't complain if I choose the GPL.
      If I don't have the right to say what others can do with my software, then this must be just: everyone else doesn't have that right either. I can do whatever I want with everyones software. This is very near to the scenario where no software can be released under another license than the GPL.

    202. Re:Open Source License by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      They paid for a good amount of the work actually done on it, try looking at wikipedia sometime. As for the rest of my post? Would YOU listen to this guy or base a good portion of FOSS on a license he wrote? hell Ballmer couldn't have asked for a better example of the crazy basement troll, when he has so few social skills as to think that is acceptable.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    203. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL says, "I wrote some code, you may use it in exchange for joining my crusade to further my principles."

      Err, no, it doesn't.

      It says "I wrote some code, you may use it in exchange for not preventing anyone else from also using it, including any changes you make."

      There's no crusade involved. If you want to take my code, improve on it and then close it, you're a leech and not a proponent of free software. At least have the decency to be honest about it.

    204. Re:Open Source License by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can totally sell it under both the GPL and BSDL. GNU has a page just about that and any software that you can't legally sell is not free software by the FSF's standards. What you can't do is restrict downstream users from modifying or reselling it. There's also the requirement of making source code available to those who you distribute to and attribution, the latter of which BSDL requires as well.

      Now, from a practical standpoint, you might have limited success trying to sell something without a government backed monopoly on it, but that's not because the GPL or BSDL is forcing you to not sell, that's normal market forces in action. You are not having success because you can't force others from competing with you, which puts you in the same boat as all other businesses.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    205. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In practise most consumers do not care whether the software is commercial or not. They might care about support but that's about it.

    206. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Practically speaking, your code becomes GPL. Yes, technically you can commit the tort of copyright infringement by creating copies of the GPLed code in a manner for which you do not have the owner's permission, i.e. by refusing to offer your linked code under the GPL. Practically speaking, your code becomes GPL. For organizations who wish to stay out of court but are too sloppy to create wrappers, it has the viral and cancerous effects described.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    207. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You misunderstand the GPL. There are plenty of cases where it makes users less free. For instance, the Asterisk phone software uses the GPL to create a monopoly for its own G.729 implementations. G.729 has to be licensed as it's patent-encumbered, but Asterisk uses the GPL to make sure you buy *their* licenses instead of anyone else's.

      The GPL ensures that the code is free. It has nothing to do with user freedom. Stallman doesn't care about users, he cares about code.

    208. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh come on, are you serious? If Stallman wanted you to be able to use GPL software with other non-GPL software, he wouldn't have a problem with you statically linking. Putting code in different processes according to license is a clusterfuck, and it's a deliberate clusterfuck. The GPL is designed to make it very difficult to interact between licenses, and particularly hard to do it performantly.

    209. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that argument falls flat when you hear your first line of Stallman rhetoric.

      According to Stallman, using the GPL is a moral requirement, and people who do not use the GPL are de facto immoral people.

      Sorry, bud, but when the license was created by the biggest ideologue troll in the industry, you can't complain that the debates around it are one-sided.

      And Stallman wants them that way, because once the other side falls into the trap of taking the opposite ideologue stance, all sensible debate is over, so he has won.

    210. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      You have heard of shared memory, no? Where the data set is large enough that passing it as a message to and from a network interface creates an unacceptable performance penalty, you can still fall back on shared memory between distinct processes.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    211. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You hit the nail on the head, at least for projects I've started. I choose licenses based on which one protects my ass and allows others to do whatever they want with the code. I want to write code that people want to use, not code that people like but can't use.

    212. Re:Open Source License by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Remember GPLv3 was all about clobbering TiVo even though they were following the spirit of the rules as most people understood them.

      No. TiVo followed the letter, they clearly didn't follow the spirit.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    213. Re:Open Source License by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Indeed. So people should stop pretending the GPL is about freedom and admit it's about restriction.

      So you stand for the freedom to enslave?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    214. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The user has complete freedom with software released under the BSD license too. They don't get any further rights over gpl software itself.

      What the gpl does is to not only exert limitations on the software it's put on, but any other software that subsequently makes use of that so called "free" software. Limiting developers whilst doing nothing for users.

      The gpl is viral. And viruses aren't a good thing, whether they're in people or computers. I'm glad it's a dying trend.

    215. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      The BSD license doesn't enslave anyone. Nor does commercial software come to that.

      But the gpl movement is an attempt to kill software engineering as a career you can earn a living from.

    216. Re:Open Source License by Pav · · Score: 1

      :) My brother is a builder whos work is mostly rennovation. I'm a sometimes-developer who has made changes to software for home users... though much more often for small businesses I'll grant. Both of us would lose work in a world where manufacturers were the sole gatekeepers to product modification. Just because in the software realm it's easier to enforce a modification-monopoly doesn't make it any more moral.

    217. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless GPL v.4 removes the right to run free software in machines with "non-free" software. Its the logical next step for GPL.

    218. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fewer words: BSD is a license which benefits creators. GPL benefits consumers.

      At least that's the theory. In practice most consumers prefer commercial software.

      In practice most consumers prefer illegally copied commercial software.
      Avoiding to pay is so much sweeter then not having to pay to begin with.

    219. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them.

      http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
      The GPL exists to protect and promote the users' freedom. Developers can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on user freedom.

    220. Re:Open Source License by Bob9113 · · Score: 1

      You GPLers

      I am not so. I have released code under GPL, LGPL, ASL, MIT and proprietary.

    221. Re:Open Source License by fredprado · · Score: 1

      It is your "truth". The only one that matters to you. Keep your faith.

    222. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proprietary software is immoral because the people who promote it promote a form of social injustice: they asks users to be restricted of their individual freedom and communal freedom. The justification for this is often, "this is how business is done and it's fine if all parties agree". What people don't understand is when users don't control the program, the program controls the users. The developer controls the program, and through it controls the users. This proprietary program is an instrument of unjust power over the user.

      On most days, I usually find new examples of users who are harmed by the restrictions associated with proprietary software. Most people don't understand what's happening, what they intuitively know is that 'the way that fixes their immediate software concern' involves subverting the restrictions placed upon them: attacking the system security (phone jailbreaking, cracking DRM for fair use), unauthorized software modifications (to fix bugs or make useful additions), and unauthorized copying. Note that in these cases, users normally consult an expert to help them achieve their goals. If only they understood the freedom they have when taking responsibilty over software that respects user freedom.

      In conclusion, the free software movement is the ethical solution to a social problem. Why spend your effort fighting through the restrictions of proprietary software that is intended to restrict you? Why not invest and share your resources with your community? It's not necessary to burden the cost of development alone when you belong to a community who is willing to share this cost.

    223. Re:Open Source License by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Missing the point.

      The GPL prevents you from restricting the freedoms of others.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    224. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, that is not correct.
      1. To distribute another's GPL code, you must abide by the GPL.
      2. When you statically link your proprietary code to the GPL code and then distribute the derivative binary, only the GPL licensed part must abide by the GPL i.e. you may distribute your proprietary binary separately to the GPL binary. This would be a hassle to the user because now the user has the burden of linking the two parts together before using the program. Engaging in Nvidia driver style separation is a different issue to this.
      3. In order to distribute your binary that is statically linked with the GPL binary, the licensing to your binary must be GPL compatible. The easiest way to do this is to license your code under the GPL. This implies that you may choose to license your code under a more liberal license - one that is not the GPL.
      4. 'The GPL is viral' in the sense that it is your choice to distribute to distribute someone else's GPL software.

    225. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is about freedom. The difference is that it's the freedom of the code rather than the developers.

    226. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Missing the point.

      You might be.

      The GPL prevents you from restricting the freedoms of others.

      No it doesn't. Under the BSD license there is absolutely nothing I can do to restrict anyone's freedom to that software.

      The GPL tries to apply itself to software that was not written by the person applying the license. The GPL tries to restrict people's freedom, BSD doesn't.

    227. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confused, free is a reference to freedom, not price.

    228. Re:Open Source License by lgw · · Score: 1

      Using the legal system around copyright in order to enforce what public domain should be. Of course "what public domain should be" is something on which opinions vary.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    229. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "perfect is the enemy of good" - GPL is perfect, which is not always a good thing.

    230. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The folllowed the spirit as I understood it. They did not follow the unwritten spirit of "make no money!" The whole issue ranges on the silly notion that they dynamically link in some object files instead of being 100% open source (ie, "tainted" modules). They did the right thing by using open source, by promoting the open source, by proving that Linux makes a great base for embedded products, and then they get slammed by the FSF.

      The only take away lesson here is that you can avoid hassles if you use a traditional proprietary OS.

    231. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      1. I said that.

      2. Is non-operative on a practical level, thus need not be considered.

      3. To be GPL compatible, your code must be released in a manner where anyone else later on can release their version under the GPL only. Whether or not this means you yourself have released it under the GPL is splitting hairs.

      4. Yes, that's what viral means. Once your code relies on GPL code in a way that compels you to license your code under the GPL, it's hard as heck to back away and decide that your code has some novel functions that you don't feel like just giving away.

      Any popular closed source software (like Microsoft Office) has this viral property: once you're invested in it, you can't easily extricate yourself from the requirements the copyright owner places on you. The GPL gets called out for retaining this behavior because it claims to promote freedom where closed source software does not.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    232. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      You'd still have the final version the the GNU Scientific Library that was released under GPL v3 available to you under the terms of GPL v3. Once offered, it can't be withdrawn.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    233. Re:Open Source License by Rhacman · · Score: 1

      If I write source code A release it under BSD then I don't have to do anything special to ensure that people will always be able to freely use my A source code. If you make proprietary package B from using my A source code anybody can STILL freely use my A source code. You as the author of B have benefited from my A code as can anyone else from now till the end of time.

      --
      Account -> Discussions -> Disable Sigs
    234. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      Or simply release it to the public domain. Like many developers these days, I quite agree with you. The GPL is not the right license for the software I choose to give away.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    235. Re:Open Source License by hazah · · Score: 1

      The point wasn't about what is "typical" it is about a legal blocker that exists in that one industry but not in the other. Care to comment on the actual blocker itself?

    236. Re:Open Source License by hazah · · Score: 1

      That sig gave me diabeetus.

    237. Re:Open Source License by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      Until you find your own piece of software closed so you can't use it, and a majority of users switch to that enhanced version by FooCorp.

      Or, try to cross-compile anything to OS X.

      I've compiled X11-based open source software on OS X. What is your point?

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    238. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      That's the "lesser" GPL or LGPL. I don't know if the GNU Scientific Library is under the GPL or the LGPL. Many of the GNU libraries are under the LGPLG. OP claimed it was the GPL. If he was wrong and its under the LGPL then he's suffering from more than a failure of imagination.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    239. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Like most analogies it isn't perfect. When it comes to minor renovations it breaks the other way. Almost everybody has worked with a contractor for *minor* renovations; and it's usually not too expensive.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    240. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 1

      This proprietary program is an instrument of unjust power over the user.

      No it isn't. You're free to stop using the device or to develop free apps and free hardware designs. People are doing that every thing, even as we type. Said before, and said again, I have no problem with that. I have no problem with Muslims who don't want to eat pork, or Hindus who don't want to eat beef. I have a problem with people starting a riot in the street because I want to have a bar-b-q and they don't like the smell of it. There's room in this world for both models. Accusations of "immorality" are the first step on the road to theocracy. Ultimately that's what this all boils down to--a religious debate, which is why I did a lot of arguing about it 10 years ago and then finally calmed down and stepped away from it... most of the time.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    241. Re:Open Source License by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      How exactly is that cross-compilation?

      I can build binaries for any other system from any other system. Except for OS X, where you need someone with that exact piece of overpriced junk, and it's hard to find such a person who's willing to run nightlies for you. If you'd want to prove the last part incorrect, it would be nice if someone could run Dungeon Crawl builds at least weekly.

      For any other modern system, you either have nicely packaged cross toolchain, or could build it yourself with not much hassle but most folks don't bother as it's easier to run a virtual machine at no cost.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    242. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who claim this are confused or, they're being rhetorical. Apple licensed some components from Xerox.

    243. Re:Open Source License by jhantin · · Score: 1

      No they don't, this would require information on every ingredient and its amount, something that most definitely is not provided.

      Sure it is. And for everything. Ever cared to read the side of your Soda Can?

      I see an enumeration of ingredients listed in descending order of quantity but not specifically quantified, and including opaque composite ingredients such as "natural and artificial flavors"; then again, it isn't an open source soft drink either.

      A great many things can be combined into the single item "natural and artificial flavors"; the actual composition of the flavor formula need not be disclosed. Quantities can be further obfuscated by providing inline breakdowns of some composite ingredients while leaving others opaque.

      --
      ...when you're writing a game...tweak the difficulty of "Easy" to something [your mother] can cope with. -- onion2k
    244. Re:Open Source License by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I believe that one of you is wrong. Whether it's you or RMS I don't know, but I suspect that you are misinterpreting something he said.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    245. Re:Open Source License by Pav · · Score: 1

      Eh? My brother only does work which he finds interesting... which is the difficult/expensive stuff involving several trades and reasonable money ie. bathrooms, kitchens and extensions. It's hardly uncommon either, especially at the moment where people are more likely to invest in their current home rather than trading up. Regarding software - there's a small engineering firm two doors down from where I live which employs a guy who hacks on open source for part of his time, and he's certainly not the only other person I know open-source-coding in the context of small/medium business. There's a HUGE potential labour market. It's a pity more of these traditionally disenfranchised end users had the power to change the software niggles which have been frustrating them for years. It IS immoral to inhibit people from helping themselves.

    246. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      closed/controlling - republican
      open/controlling ie GPL - democrat
      free/open ie permissive license - libertarian

      or

      closed/controlling - fascist
      open/controlling ie GPL - communist
      free/open ie permissive license - anarchist

    247. Re:Open Source License by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Plural of anecdote, and semantic of what I consider a small job vs. what you consider a small job. Plenty of people have bathrooms and addtions, and I'm sure it gets tricky. I'm talking about development from the ground up (acquire land, design custom house, build, etc.).

      Anyway, the mere existence of proprietary software doesn't prevent people from helping themselves. Proprietary software doesn't eliminate Free or Open Source software; but crusaders who believe proprietary software is immoral and are part of the broader sweep of leftist ideology would force us all to work under copyleft if they had their way. That would be an absolute disaster that would deprive many people of the ability to have things they can't produce themselves, and to help themselves with tools that only exist because of the profit motive.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    248. Re:Open Source License by Mawen · · Score: 1

      Are you suffering from a lack of google? ;) GNU Scientific Library is GPL: http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/ [gnu.org]
      The page also has a link to an RMS essay about how free software developers should prevent proprietary developers from using their software in order for the GPL software developers to get a collective advantage for themselves. (BTW, it sounds to me like RMS doesn't intend for proprietary developers to wrap the GSL in IPC.)

    249. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      That's not a definition of copyleft, try again.

    250. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Nah, it is 'the truth', you'll never do anything :P

    251. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1
      webkit has portions under BSD and LGPL.

      Also, Apple usually overstates their "contributions", which are often just "usage".

      So you're saying they don't commit to BSD projects?

    252. Re:Open Source License by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      You do realise that Apple hasn't given CUPS and WebKit "to BSD"? And you do realise that both CUPS and WebKit (KHTML) are GPL licensed projects? Would Apple give anything back to the community if these two were BSD licensed? Maybe, you can't tell... they've done so with some (I'd like to point out gcd as an "offer back to" FreeBSD, which is very neat) but not others.

      I'd suggest a quick look at clang, which is not only BSD licensed, but Apple's own project, would indicate that would indeed give changes to BSDed projects back.

    253. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The important point is that you specifically choose for your code to be distributed under a GPL-compatible license. You can also choose not to distribute another's GPL program.

      “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them. Programmers (and distributors) can do whatever they wish as long as they don't conflict with the users' freedom. GPL promotes freedom because all GPL software respects all these freedoms. Proprietary software licenses restrict one or more of these freedoms (usually all of them).

    254. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community. Roughly, the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. With these freedoms, the users (both individually and collectively) control the program and what it does for them.

      When users don't control the program, the program controls the users. The developer controls the program, and through it controls the users. This nonfree or “proprietary” program is therefore an instrument of unjust power.

      “Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community.

    255. Re:Open Source License by Spazmania · · Score: 1

      At this point in the discussion I'm suffering from lack of bothering to google.

      As for RMS... his views are well known and I'm sure you've represented them accurately. Had he been foolish enough to have Moglen incorporate a strict version of those views in the GPL, it would have died on the vine. As it turns out, he wasn't.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    256. Re:Open Source License by nobodie · · Score: 1

      OK, I have a use for the GPL as argued here:
      I lead a Tablet Tech team at my university. Instead of iPads we are using android units. There are special applications not available that would be useful in our classrooms, that we "design" (as in make up a list of our wants and needs) and want to pass on to a developer. We are willing to pay the developer for their time, and to give them ownership of the application for sale as an android app as long as we get the use of it (as we paid for in the first place, that is to say that any developments in the future from that developer are not ours).

      Now, we want the program to have a GPL because the developer is being paid by us, for our purposes. If we decide to make improvements on "our" code, that we paid for in the first place, we want that code available to us without argument, protected by license. We also want our code to be available to other people in our business to use and develop as they see fit, since this fits our model of "professional development" that is in our mission statement.

      Now, it could be argued that with other licenses we could meet our needs and if there were trouble could go to court to protect our rights, but I argue that GPL protects us from worries about going to court in the first place. Going to court is not in our department budget, and wouldn't be an option. So, the GPL makes the most sense for practical, ethical and professional purposes.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
    257. Re:Open Source License by nobodie · · Score: 1

      Sorry friend, but I came to FOSS because of IP misunderstanding with my students while I was teaching in Asia. I know the battleground for this rather intimately and you are misinformed. The difference between IP as in new innovation and improvements in physical devices (patent protection), new innovations in IP as in creative endeavor (copyright) and music and movie protections under copyright for super-extended periods of time (anything more than 5 years after initial publication) is a very different case. There need to be limits on patents and copyrights that include both time and idea type/physical utility.

      Example: "rounded corners" is a stylistic differentiation that has almost no technical differentiation. Reducing thickness and weight by a factor of 5% have important technical effects inside the device. Thus manufacturers reducing board thickness and weight affects heat dispersion and device weight and thickness and the technical specs that make this possible should be patentable for a short period of time, no problem. Rounded corners are nothing in comparison with that, they required no technical innovation and should never have been patented.

      Example: movies, music and writing are all creative endeavors and deserve some copyright protections. Those protections should be strong and enforceable for a short period of time, based on publication date and form of endeavor. With modern publishing times under 3 months for books and music, and 6 months for movies, it would seem that 3 years and 6 years would be reasonable protection for the artists involved. Creators that take longer are still adequately protected in terms of time, it's just that there is no need for a 1 to 1 system, just reasonable protections for their work. In the modern world, a movie, song or book is "eternal" after 5 years and therefor should enter the public realm since it has value for longer than expected, making the creator someone who will be recompensed on subsequent works because of name and reputation. Look at the Coen brothers or JD Salinger. Salinger wrote little, but everything written is iconic and was well recompensed.

      --
      Subversion of spatial scale luxury decoration ideas.
    258. Re:Open Source License by Edam · · Score: 1

      You're being too black and white about it. The GPL *is* about freedom: *user's* freedom. And it preserves this by *restricting* developers. It's just a matter of perspective.

      The apparent contradiction of applying restrictions on developers in order to preserve user's freedom might seem confusing. I liken it to a "free society" that is achieved by putting restrictions on its members (e.g., they can't kill each other).

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master." -Pravin Lal
    259. Re:Open Source License by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      The folllowed the spirit as I understood it.

      Then you misunderstood. The whole point of the GPL is to give the user the freedom to modify the software. TiVoisation prevents that, thus breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of GPLv2.

      They did not follow the unwritten spirit of "make no money!"

      This is you hearing ghostly voices in your head and has nothing to do with the GPL.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    260. Re:Open Source License by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You're being too black and white about it. The GPL *is* about freedom: *user's* freedom. And it preserves this by *restricting* developers. It's just a matter of perspective.

      So, it's doing a benefit for users (who consume) and doing it by restricting developers (who create the stuff they're consuming). What did the users do to deserve this largesse at the expense of developers?

      Note that the original author of the software should be free to put whatever license they want on software for whatever reason. The problem is that the GPL virally consumes all the software written by other people that touch it too.

      BSD gives just as much freedom to users, without the nasty viral part.

    261. Re:Open Source License by lgw · · Score: 1

      Nu-uh, my definition of copyleft is betterer than yours!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    262. Re:Open Source License by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You absolutely can modify the software in the Tivo. There is only one tiny bit that you can't modify. With FSF it's all or nothing, instead of acknowledging that Tivo was promoting open source and granting legitimacy to it they are instead held up as the example of the worst of proprietary software.

    263. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is that FUD?

      I can take BSD/MIT/Whatever licensed code make changes/add it to my program and distribute it as binary only.

      It is fact.

      That some companies sometimes give back to some permissively licensed projects is beside the point. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO DO IT AND MOST DO NOT.

    264. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah because Windows is the symbol of secure software.

      You do realize that it is MUCH easier to craft exploits with an execuable by running it in a debugger don't you?

      It is easier to find possible exploitable code with source, but you need to run it to actually craft exploits.

    265. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are retarded.

      Overstating does not mean doesn't at all.

    266. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is really easy. Create a wrapper around a GPL lib and license that wrapper using BSD or MIT(both are compatible with GPL) and then make your program depend on the BSD wrapper, and since BSD can be included in proprietary programs you are done. The only kicker is that you can not also distribute that GPL library with your program. The end user has to do it and the GPL puts no burden on end-users.

      Go look at GitHub. There are tons of wrappers around nmap, readline, libpcap in various languages and few of those wrappers are GPLed.

    267. Re:Open Source License by exomondo · · Score: 1

      then you don't know what copyleft is, which would explain why you incorrectly believe the BSD license is a copyleft license when everybody else knows it isn't.

    268. Re:Open Source License by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      There is only one tiny bit that you can't modify.

      One tiny bit?

      t is not possible to replace the kernel on a Series2 TiVo since the PROM requires that the kernel be cryptographically signed with a key from TiVo

      http://www.gratisoft.us/tivo/bigdisk.html

      The kernel is "one tiny bit"?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    269. Re:Open Source License by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "free software" (GPL) way of making sure that users can modify their hardware and software is by making sure that nobody that can't modify the hardware or software can be users. It takes away potential end-users freedom to choose to pay somebody for adapting the software to their needs and that somebody taking the risk that those modifications are good and handling spreading the cost around and taking the time risk.

      Instead, for a GPLed product, a potential user either has to make do with what's available, or take the time cost and risk associated with getting something developed themselves (potentially attempting to share that cost up front with other people, but with the full free-rider problem included.)

      "We make sure that all users of our software are free. Nobody that's not free is allowed to use our software."

    270. Re:Open Source License by EntenteSoftware · · Score: 0

      With so few projects offering a license for others to use their publicly-posted code, it seems there is a general lack of education around the distribution of open source: Using a permissive license like MIT, BSD or Apache encourages adoption by commercial software companies, which can help draw interest to a project and add development cycles; using a viral license like AGPL or MPL ensures that your code remains open when it's used by others; and using no license at all provides no benefit to the open source community. http://www.ententesoftware.com/

  2. It's a matter of trust by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really like the GPL, I like what it is trying to do.

    But over time I've gravitated to BSD like licenses, because I really do want as many people as possible using something.

    It's a matter of trust - I trust that generally others will do the right thing, and good changes will come back. It's re-enforced by the fact that contributing code back makes it was easier to absorb updates to the main codebase, selfishly keeping your updates private makes lots of extra work for you over time.

    The GPL tries to enforce something that will happen naturally, which I feel is overkill.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Many people prefer the BSD or MIT licenses, until they get involved in a lawsuit. After that, they suddenly become suspiciously fanatically pro-GPL ;-)

    2. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      But over time I've gravitated to BSD like licenses, because I really do want as many people as possible using something.

      This is basically the distinction that determines whether you should use BSD or GPL. If you want as many people as possible using it, then go with BSD.

      If you're self-centered like me and don't want anyone using your work without giving back, then use the GPL.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:It's a matter of trust by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It depends on the kind of code for me. With machine-learning or statistics code, I generally prefer GPL, because I don't really think Mathematica, Matlab, or Excel should be able to use my work for free without giving something back. If they don't want to GPL their own software, they can purchase a proprietary license from me, just like I have to purchase one from them to use their products. But I ain't giving them a free one.

    4. Re:It's a matter of trust by Microlith · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the case of commercial applications, I like to think of the GPL as the asking price for my software. You're always free to re-negotiate if it's too high.

    5. Re:It's a matter of trust by ArsonSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Forget who said it:

      I learn politics and war now, so my children can learn math and engineering, and my grandchildren art and poetry.

      RMS fought for the GPL, so the next generation could have the BSD/Apache likes, and the next generation could not have to worry about licenses at all.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    6. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should disclose that you are a massive Apple fanboy. It's relevant.

    7. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's a matter of trust - I trust that generally others will do the right thing, and good changes will come back.

      This is optimistic, like the tragedy of the commons. It's also worth mentioning that there are several times in history when companies used open source code, and wouldn't have given back if it weren't for the GPL requiring it. For example, that is why GCC includes Objective-C support. NeXT wouldn't have given that back at all if they weren't required.

      Microsoft released it's Hyper-V code due to the GPL. They wouldn't have if the kernel had been BSD licensed. Many mobile companies only release the modifications to Android that are required under the GPL. If it weren't for the GPL, they likely wouldn't release the drivers either, and projects like CyanogenMod would be a lot harder. There's a long list of source code that we have because of the GPL.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    8. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember the bad old days, before GPL projects were common. You unfortunately overestimate the generosity of corporations and institutions -- they can, and will, go to extreme lengths to re-invent the wheel if they can keep it proprietary.

      Most companies don't -care- about being able to 'absorb updates to the main codebase'. They aren't even looking for contributors outside of their team to improve the code. And companies don't think about the long term, so the fact that failing to share makes 'lots of extra work for you over time' isn't even considered. It's all about short term, 'it works, ship it!'

    9. Re:It's a matter of trust by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Go compare Linux and BSD then think about it for a while.

      Some folks will not contribute back if they can avoid it.

      I like BSD for somethings, boring stuff that gets shared and used everywhere. SSH, SSL that sort of thing, but if you want your new whiz-bang thing to get code back GPL is better for that.

    10. Re:It's a matter of trust by elfprince13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is why I LGPL most everything I release. You're welcome to do whatever you want with my software, but if you make changes to my code, I want to see them.

    11. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, that is why GCC includes Objective-C support. NeXT wouldn't have given that back at all if they weren't required.

      How do you know? Apple has put a lot of resources into CLANG/LLVM which is NCSA license, based on BSD license. They could have forked it and returned nothing.

    12. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      How do you know?

      It's common knowledge, but you can learn it too if you use Google. There is a thread where Richard Stallman discusses the topic, interesting reading.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    13. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      over time I've gravitated to BSD like licenses

      Why not give it to the Public Domain? Why add a license whose only purpose is to protect the license itself?

    14. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are forgetting how the BSDs became free to begin with - and they are still with the BSD license.

    15. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That argument doesn't hold water. Microsoft is also working on releasing BSD-licensed Hyper-V drivers for FreeBSD.

    16. Re:It's a matter of trust by Jonner · · Score: 1

      The GPL tries to enforce something that will happen naturally, which I feel is overkill.

      There are times when the sharing happens naturally and a permissive license is the most appropriate. TFA talks about the large amount of Javascript on GitHub and that may be an area where this is true. However, there are many areas in which sharing of changes is not natural. The biggest examples I know of are in hosted "cloud" services and mobile devices. Even when legally required to, device manufacturers are often very reluctant to share changes because of ignorance, laziness or just plain apathy.

    17. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of commercial applications, I like to think of the GPL as the asking price for my software. You're always free to re-negotiate if it's too high.

      Free as in beer?

    18. Re:It's a matter of trust by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      they can, and will, go to extreme lengths to re-invent the wheel if they can keep it proprietary.

      And why would even want any code that comes from such a place? I consider myself better off not having to review it enough to reject it. At least the code has made life slightly better for some poor soul who has to live as a cog in the system.

      Most companies don't -care- about being able to 'absorb updates to the main codebase'.

      Then they are irrelevant, and it doesn't matter if they have my code or not.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    19. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That argument doesn't hold water. Microsoft is also working on releasing BSD-licensed Hyper-V drivers for FreeBSD.

      Let's assume you are right, and you completely rebutted that single example. It still doesn't affect the argument, because there are many examples that support the main point. This is logic 101. I will give you another example, there are plenty.

      I have personally forked Android and fixed a number of bugs in the code. I will never contribute those fixes back because I am not required to. Furthermore it gives us a competitive advantage because our code is more stable than our competitors. However, if Android were GPL, we would have given those changes back (or at least released the code).

      So there it is. The point is that many companies won't give back without the GPL because it is in their advantage specifically to not do so. It is not hard to continuously merge changes in from the main project, if you do it right. I know, because I've done it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    20. Re:It's a matter of trust by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Many people prefer the BSD or MIT licenses, until they get involved in a lawsuit. After that, they suddenly become suspiciously fanatically pro-GPL

      This assertion could use some support. I've certainly noticed many large companies that use and release open source software continue to use permissive license on material that they release as open source that doesn't have to be GPL-licensed because it is built on GPL licensed components, even after being involved in lawsuits (Google, for instance.)

    21. Re:It's a matter of trust by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      What kind of lawsuit are you referring to?

    22. Re:It's a matter of trust by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Google says it's John Adams...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    23. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was involved in a copyright lawsuit for two years and I prefer BSD/MIT to GPL.

    24. Re:It's a matter of trust by dargaud · · Score: 2

      I trust that generally others will do the right thing, and good changes will come back

      OK. Question: how much BSD code did Apple contribute back after milking it for 13 years ?

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    25. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      You might want to make it clear on your website that you are willing to negotiate. A lot of companies won't realize or even consider that it's a possibility if you don't make it clear.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    26. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me make sure I have this right - your refutation of my point is that you personally forked a project and didn't contribute back?

    27. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I didn't refute your point, I conceded it. Then I showed that your point is irrelevant.

      Basically, there are so many examples of companies releasing source code because they are required to by the GPL, that trying to argue that they don't mainly shows you are ignorant (or a troll).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    28. Re:It's a matter of trust by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      When the GPL was new, it was by no means clear that free software would catch on. Indeed, in mobile devices, it hasn't. (Some might argue that Android is free, but most apps are not.)

      It turns out the threat the GPL is designed to counter -- "embrace and extend" -- is not as serious in practice as it once seemed it would be. It is now hard to make a proprietary application that's based on Apache/BSD code and competes with the free alternative. Successful free-software projects produce good code, and adding enough value to get people to relinquish the free version in favor of a locked-down one is not easy.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    29. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For example, that is why GCC includes Objective-C support. NeXT wouldn't have given that back at all if they weren't required.

      How do you know? Apple has put a lot of resources into CLANG/LLVM which is NCSA license, based on BSD license. They could have forked it and returned nothing.

      Are you saying that by contributing to LLVM, Apple went back in time and retroactively changed the motivations of the people making the decisions at NeXT back in the 90s?

    30. Re:It's a matter of trust by wagnerrp · · Score: 2

      Apple hired one of the original creators of the LLVM compiler, and put him in charge of a team to maintain and develop LLVM. The team working at Apple subsequently wrote and open sourced the Clang frontend for C-like languages (C/C++/ObjC). Clang/LLVM has recently supplanted GCC as the primary tool chain used by FreeBSD.

    31. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NeXT did that work almost 20 years ago, long before LLVM had ever been thought of.

    32. Re:It's a matter of trust by lgw · · Score: 1

      How does the GPL in any way protect you from a lawsuit that the BSD license doesn't?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    33. Re:It's a matter of trust by Millennium · · Score: 0

      Nothing so grand as all that. It's a price: it just happens that that the author (or team) accepts code, rather than money, as payment.

      I see nothing wrong with that. Nowadays, contributing back is simply expected behavior, but this was not always so. The current BSD/MIT/CC0/etc regime would likely not have been possible if the GPL had not existed to create and enforce this behavior pattern in the first place. One could argue that it has outlived its necessity, but it was once necessary, and one can just as easily argue that it still is.

    34. Re:It's a matter of trust by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 2

      So.. there was this college student named Linus. He wanted to play with UNIX. Licenses too expensive, forget that. He looked at BSD (back when there was really just the BSD). It was in a lawsuit, so he didn't want to mess with that. So he started his own. He called it Linux.

      Then he had to pick a license. The BSD license was already a well established license. But he went with the GPL instead. Why? Because he was worried about Freedom-as-in-speech and all that? No. He was being very pragmatic.

      When you use the GPL, you get to see a lot of the cool stuff that people play with. Interesting changes and forks get pulled back into the main source. That might spur other people to new ideas, which then need to get folded back. He's not hard core about licenses, he's hard core about being able to see things folded back in.

      One thing I never see discussed is how license affects those mechanics. Forget the my-free-is-more-free-than-your-free wars, what does the license do for adoption and code sharing? As a general broad swath, BSD may be better for code dissemination, but does BSD-vs-GPL mean anything for code movement?

      And remember that this isn't black and white. The Cathedral and the Bazaar was a comparison of two GPL licensed code bases, the Cathedral being gcc (at the time, not the newer egcs forked line which took over gcc) with Linux as the Bazaar model.

    35. Re:It's a matter of trust by semios · · Score: 1

      How do you deal with contributors to your GPL'd projects?

    36. Re:It's a matter of trust by idunham · · Score: 1

      > He looked at BSD (back when there was really just the BSD). It was in a lawsuit, so he didn't want to mess with that.

      That wasn't the explanation I heard (though I can't seem to find the quote...)--could you provide a reference?

      The rest of your comment is pretty accurate.

    37. Re:It's a matter of trust by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Of course, the moment you actually accept a patch from someone else, you are no longer free to negotiate, as they will hold GPL rights over that section of the code... thats going to be fun in any long running multiple project.
      And if you are not going to accept any patches/updates, what again is the value of GPL?

    38. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most insightful post in the whole thread.

    39. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of commercial applications, I like to think of the GPL as the asking price for my software. You're always free to re-negotiate if it's too high.

      Know what? At least you're being honest, the GPL is about YOU. That's what it is, developers "protecting" their community work from groups they dislike, or maybe in your case it's just for sale to some, free to others. For community work, those lines are OK with me, TBH. Not the disliked group exclusion, just the sale to those with the means part.

      Using the logic that the GPL protects end user "freedoms", we could argue that by selling licensed copies to a vendor for commercial distribution, you're robbing the freedoms of your users though. How does that sit with you all?

    40. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your profound statement about the actions of RMS is so profound. If only you could convince RMS

    41. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least you're willing to admit that the GPL has a price tag on it. And I honestly don't think there's anything wrong with that.

      Where I have a problem is when GPL zealots try to claim it's somehow free (and worse, even more free than BSD-style licenses) to put a bunch of restrictions on someone using what you've written.

      GPL software is not free software. It has a price tag on it.
      BSD licensed software is free (as in free-free).

    42. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks like a list of speculative "what-ifs" building up an "ends-justify-the-means" style argument.

      Question: if it would eliminate AIDS, would you support exterminating every HIV-positive human being on Earth?

    43. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If you had AIDS, I would seriously consider terminating you. And perhaps anyone else who couldn't form a coherent argument. In fact, forget the AIDS.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    44. Re:It's a matter of trust by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What lawsuits?

    45. Re:It's a matter of trust by Darinbob · · Score: 0

      Why do you want to see the changes and why do you insist on it in the license? Are you unnaturally curious, is there an ego involved, are you paranoid, do you just like to maintain control, or other?

    46. Re:It's a matter of trust by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      What is wrong if someone doesn't contribute back? Is this like the old BBS systems where you were second class until your upload to download ratio went up? If you only want your friends to use it, then only give it to your friends. If you're giving it out more broadly but attaching tight restrictions then it's not the same as sharing.

    47. Re:It's a matter of trust by elfprince13 · · Score: 1

      I don't want to spend my hobby time fixing a bug that someone else has already fixed or adding a feature that someone else has already added. If you're going to use my code for free, then you're going to have to do me the courtesy of returning the favorite. If you want to negotiate a no-questions-asked license that involves giving me money, that's a different story.

    48. Re:It's a matter of trust by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I have personally forked Android and fixed a number of bugs in the code. I will never contribute those fixes back because I am not required to.

      And over time you will either go out of date or face worse and worse merging challenges. At some point, perhaps later, but at some point, it will seem more worthwhile to send back in the changes and stop having to merge, to maintain backups of the repository with your changes, etc.

      But in the end even if you don't, it never hurt Android. Something that doesn't hurt anyone and potentially helps someone is good in my book, even if it's helping a retentious (sic) asshole like yourself. Progress is progress and the results leak out eventually in some form.

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    49. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      True, it didn't hurt Android. And I wasn't trying to do that. But if Andriod had been GPL, then it would have been helped in this case.

      Also, I have no doubt in my capability to continually merge my changes in. It's not a problem.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    50. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Lots of companies have done ok with that model.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    51. Re:It's a matter of trust by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      And remember that this isn't black and white. The Cathedral and the Bazaar was a comparison of two GPL licensed code bases...

      Meanwhile, the Bazaar Cathedrill was about making a strange little prickish hose that people pissed themselves over. Neither had any real merit when discussing license adoption because they were about software development strategies, not licensing.

      You also forgot the part where GNU had a complier and all the tools an OS needs that Linus NEEDED in order to make an OS, and the work he needed to do was pretty simple (by comparison) -- I know, I've made several shitty little bootloaders and OS kernels in ASM, and it was fucking easy, and Linus used C (and Assembly), which is even easier. Lots of folks do this, it's not hard.. Also, he was getting help from other folks during the development of the kernel, it didn't just spring forth fully formed only from his head. So, that Linus was using the GPL was due to the environment (litterally) the userland. If it had been BSD userland, he'd have probably adopted that.

      None of that has much to do at all about popularity -- or moving code. The first usable ANYTHING gains lots of traction. Linus was making a UNiX like system for x86 PCs. Being the first popular thing in their respected areas is why both Windows and Linux have the success they do. License be damned, windows was firster, so it's now more popular.

    52. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The MIT and BSD licenses predate the GPL license.

    53. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft released it's Hyper-V code due to the GPL. They wouldn't have if the kernel had been BSD licensed. Many mobile companies only release the modifications to Android that are required under the GPL. If it weren't for the GPL, they likely wouldn't release the drivers either, and projects like CyanogenMod would be a lot harder. There's a long list of source code that we have because of the GPL.

      Microsoft released the hyper-v drivers for Linux to gain market share in a new market. Just like they made hyper-v server available for free, with less restrictions than the free version of vmware's esx. They could easily have done an nvidia and only released blobs. Microsoft want to own the cloud, that means making everything, including linux work well on their cloud platform.

    54. Re:It's a matter of trust by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      The point is to improve the product itself and freedom for the user not the developer.

      If you can improve it and lock up those improvements the user loses the freedom to modify.

    55. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, I have no doubt in my capability to continually merge my changes in. It's not a problem.

      It's a waste of your effort though. Most companies have no place for such ongoing inefficiency and thus contribute back changes because it's cheaper for them to do so, regardless of whether the software in question has a copyleft or permissive license.

    56. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's a waste of your effort though. Most companies have no place for such ongoing inefficiency and thus contribute back changes because it's cheaper for them to do so,

      No, you are wrong. It gives us a competitive advantage. That makes it worth it. You must not be able to read very well because I already mentioned that.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    57. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jack Donaghy also said it pretty well:

      "We are an immigrant nation! The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things, the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas, the third generation... snowboards and takes improv classes. "

    58. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go compare Linux and BSD then think about it for a while.

      Some folks will not contribute back if they can avoid it.

      This point works particularly well in the embedded world.

      In 1998 BSD seemed like a clear winner on merit for an embedded project. BSD code is much better-factored for porting to a new board, while Linux tends to paste-and-rape. A decade or two ago, NetBSD had a clear undeniable lead in non-x86 support. All the BSD's packaging systems were better-suited to non-x86 work because they're rigidly source-based like Gentoo, and they're factored Makefiles ("ebuilds") instead of blind shell scripts that you found inside rpm's of that era, so you can use things like 'libtool' if the binutils behave a little different on a certain platform, or swap out libfoomanager-barney for libfoomanager-gidlite if the barney version is x86-specific. (note openwrt also uses Makefile-based packaging) BSD had good cross-compiling build systems long before Linux, and even did nightly builds. Finally, not being forced to share your code is a big win for an embedded project, right? so that should draw companies to BSD, for better or worse?

      It didn't. Linux was always competitive, to the annoyance of BSD fans who felt, *back then* rightly, that it was unfairly winning if you went by objective merit. And since then, Linux has slowly widened the gap. Now linux just flat-out wins.

      I've come to believe the GPL license is *better for companies*. They may think they're gaining some advantage by not sharing their code, but being forced to share modifications to the core OS everyone's using, and being forced to do that on an even playing field instead of this silly "faith" that companies will "do the right thing," reduces entry barriers and accelerates the entire industry's forward progress.

      Around ~2000 many companies used NetBSD but didn't admit it. Even though the BSD license requires them to give credit, they did so subtly, and BSD developers aware of the use didn't want to "antagonize" them by boosting the message. Anyone using Linux of course has to post source, so it's known who uses Linux, and discussed. This created a perception of momentum for Linux in the embedded company that consulting companies milked and amplified.

      To me, this shows how deeply broken the BSD concept of "permissive" really is. We're not even sharing source, just giving credit, *as the BSD license requires*, and already BSD fans push back and take the side of corporate selfishness. In late 90's, early 2000's, it seemed to me mostly older engineers had these pandering cowardly attitudes, "we don't want to antagonize any corporation, ever," and they stressed "cooperation" to the point it became "obedience," had a creepy awed respect for thuggish behaviour. If we've come back to that position through a different route (like personal selfishness and impatient tl;dr), I'll be very sad.

      Asking "why" BSD license loses long-term in the embedded world leads straight to bickering: are EE's bigger assholes than normal programmers, or more likely to adopt a "where the rockets come down is not my department" attitude? Are EE's just crappy programmers, who don't understand technical debt, and refuse to work on patches to the point they can be upstreamed---they want to ship and forget and never provide any software maintenance, or they underestimate the cost of forks? Are patents the entire problem? Releasing source allows competitors and trolls to sift your product for patents they might use to harass you. Embedded companies may be smaller than IBM/HP/RedHat and more vulnerable to patent harassment, or working in more patent-entrenched areas. But if you leave out "why", GPL has clearly done better in the embedded world precisely because companies don't share their work unless forced.

      Aside from the bickering, it'd be interesting to look for second-order effects that have helped Linux beat BSD in embedded projects. The bug-freeness (albeit maybe not the readability) of Linux

    59. Re:It's a matter of trust by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Which user are you talking about? The original user can always modify it, they user still has the source code plus their own changes. If you're talking about 2nd or 3rd generation users then maybe you're right, but those downstream users can still get the original code! It is impossible to lock down the code so that downstream users can never get the originals again, the only thing that is locked down are the first user's own changes. The GPL wants to prevent that by insisting that the first user always gives up their own rights to modifications, for some reason they seem to think that the original software can be damaged.

      Look at SunOS for example, and other proprietary versions of BSD code. Their existence did not harm BSD or slow down the improvements to BSD. I think those versions actually helped out BSD.

    60. Re:It's a matter of trust by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      This is relevant how?

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    61. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cool. We don't care about your software.

    62. Re:It's a matter of trust by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 1

      "But over time I've gravitated to BSD like licenses, because I really do want as many people as possible using something."

      If you're a developer, yes, the choice of a free/open source license makes a difference. But for the majority of software "users" who don't program for a living, the BSD and the GPL are practically the same. I mean what's the difference between GPL and BSD licensed programs when it comes to downloading and running the binaries? Is it the Source? This can be a mere link to a code repository like GitHub.

    63. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the bugs are so significant that you can derive real competitive advantage from having them fixed, then others will find and fix them as well, and then you'll have even more work on your hands. If they're not significant then I don't see how you'd have a marketable advantage. I'm genuinely curious here - can you provide a concrete example?

    64. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you guys have so much trouble merging. When they fix the bugs, I take their changes, unless I like my fixes better, then I keep mine. Simple.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    65. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You ask for copyright, or ask for a liberal license, or reject the contribution.

    66. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still really curious about the types of bugs you've fixed that are both trivial to merge and significant enough to offer a competitive advantage.

    67. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I know, but the Android codebase is full of them. If you want to find some, open the code up in Eclipse (or compile it however you like) and check the warnings. Some of them will be real bugs. Most of them one or two line fixes.

      The particular bugs I've fixed have all been in ADB, which is important to us (and our competitors) because we need a stable connection over USB. Bugs on the device are harder to fix because we can't flash a new OS on every device.....

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    68. Re:It's a matter of trust by alexofoslo · · Score: 0

      You can get around that problem by insisting that copyright over their contributed code falls to you when they submit it. That is what the FSF does with their code. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#AssignCopyright

    69. Re:It's a matter of trust by Edam · · Score: 1

      Your trust is very commendable, but you should think of licences as being about making permissions clear, rather than enforcement. You say that you trust people to do the right thing, but the fact of the matter is that you are giving them permission not to! (Although I acknowledge I'm making assumptions about what you think "the right thing" is here!)

      On a slight side note, I always get a chuckle when I see people getting upset about some-company-or-other not acting "in the spirit of open source" when, in fact, the company's doing exactly what they have been permitted to do. It's like saying, "here, take this with no obligations whatsoever!" and then getting upset when someone doesn't do what you want with it.

      The same is true for licences. If you want recipients of your code to contribute their changes back to the community, then the GPL expresses that those are your desires. Whether you (as the copyright holder) choose to enforce that or not is really a separate issue.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master." -Pravin Lal
    70. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't re-negotiate if you've taken contributions and can't get hold of all the contributors.

    71. Re:It's a matter of trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting, so do you distribute Android debugging tools? I'm not that familiar with the Android ecosystem. I'm somewhat surprised that there's a market for 3rd party derivatives of the "official" tools.

    72. Re:It's a matter of trust by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Interesting, so do you distribute Android debugging tools?

      Yes, we do.

      I'm somewhat surprised that there's a market for 3rd party derivatives of the "official" tools.

      There probably isn't by itself, but as part of a larger product, it can be useful.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  3. The GPL isn't free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    It is, in fact, very restrictive. If one wants truly free software, one uses a more free license or makes one's code public domain.

    1. Re:The GPL isn't free by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      The problem with public domain is that the concept is not available all over the world, which can make it a bit cumbersume. Just look at the procedure for contributing to SQLite.

    2. Re:The GPL isn't free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL is about freedom for the _user_, not for the developer. The GPL guarantee that whoever use your software will be able to see and edit the source code (or ask someone to do it)

    3. Re:The GPL isn't free by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      It is, in fact, very restrictive. If one wants truly free software, one uses a more free license or makes one's code public domain.

      I have to respond to this: while I release my stuff (well, much of it) under BSD[1], such as the stuff in my sig below, I never considered that GPL was "restrictive" in any way. It's the creators right to decide how people should redistribute their creations, and if a creator decides that other creators who modify the creation must also release their modifications, then so be it ... there is nothing at all restrictive about asking that people who change your creations and then distribute the changed creations must also allow others to modify the derived creation.

      That being said, I tend to use BSD because:

      1. Less confusion; only two paragraphs to read

      2. I want people to use my stuff and give me credit. BSD let's me do that. I don't care if they modify my stuff and then distribute for a profit - as long as they take care to provide credit to me as the licence requires I'm all good.

      3. GPL turns off potential users (remember that contributors are users first, before becoming contributors!) and I'm usually aiming for as many users as possible.

      BSD software stands a reasonably high chance (compared to GPL) of getting integrated into a major piece of commercial software. This provides additional avenues of income to me by raising my profile. The value provided by being credited (for example) by Google as a contributor is much much more than I would hope to get from simply releasing my little libraries and experiments for monetary gain or reciprocal sharing.

      The only value I can possibly gain from GPL is from the reciprocal sharing, when people contribute code back to my project. That value is too little compared to the value I will gain in raised profile when the code is integrated into a successfull (or not) commercial product.

      [1] Some of the older stuff is under GPL as I don't want to maintain them and am hoping someone takes them over.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
  4. Don't anger the RMS fanbois by Virtucon · · Score: 0

    You'll incur the wrath of the RMS fanbois if you don't take the GPL. While I support Free Software, there are lots of alternatives such as the BSD and MIT licenses which offer choice. It shouldn't worry folks if they are used vs. the GPL so this really is a non-issue.. Wait for it..

    RMS will now go on a tirade in 4...3...2...1

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
    1. Re:Don't anger the RMS fanbois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only things the GPL promotes is hacks that disfavour decent software design/architecture/yeah that spark, versus the patchy patch variety that just muddles along.

    2. Re:Don't anger the RMS fanbois by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Ah, it's "make random shit up about RMS day" again. Didn't we have one last week.

      Most of the opinions people ascribe to RMS are, in fact false.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re:Don't anger the RMS fanbois by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like nibbling on his own unwashed feet...in public?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ

  5. BSD license by geek · · Score: 1

    I personally prefer the BSD license. To me freedom means "do whatever you want with it," as soon as you start attaching strings and restrictions it's no longer free. Yes other people could make money off what I write but if I was worried about that I wouldn't have released it in the first place.

    I really wish FreeBSD would keep up with Linux. I keep trying to go back to my FreeBSD roots but the hardware support isn't there, the software choices are narrowing (thanks to gnome3 and systemd) and the FreeBSD team has an "I don't care" attitude when it comes to the desktop.

    1. Re:BSD license by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      I personally prefer the BSD license. To me freedom means "do whatever you want with it," as soon as you start attaching strings and restrictions it's no longer free.

      Then why not make it public domain? Why attach a license at all?

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    2. Re:BSD license by geek · · Score: 4, Informative

      I personally prefer the BSD license. To me freedom means "do whatever you want with it," as soon as you start attaching strings and restrictions it's no longer free.

      Then why not make it public domain? Why attach a license at all?

      Good question. Because without a specific license attached companies and individuals alike wont touch it. The default is "all rights reserved" meaning its not open unless specifically stated. You retain rights until you explicitly give them up. Hope that makes sense, I'm not a lawyer and may not have explained it in the best of terms.

    3. Re:BSD license by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      I think there's two very different justifications for one or the other.

      By contributing to "truly free" software (BSD) you're raising the floor, because it's work that no-one ever needs to repeat again. As such, I consider the LGPL something of a hack: it starts with Stallman's notion of free meaning "never closed", then realises that no-one would use a compiler that doesn't let you make proprietary code (on the grounds that the libraries are GPL code) and hacks it so that it's GPL "but not really".

      GPL is useful for "pushing the boundaries". If you've done something new and different, sure, keep control, because something that can just be picked up, rebranded and sold by a marketing company is worth protecting from exploitation.

      But most software doesn't push the boundaries. Most software is just the same all stuff in a different suit. The difficulty of modifying existing software is a cost. Restrictions are a cost too. Most GPL software is in effect more expensive than just rewriting from the ground up -- only very high utility-value software isn't (think Linux, OpenOffice). And yet, these too contain many elements that could "raise the floor" -- task schedulers, text renders etc -- that if released under a BSD license could be used everywhere. Someone, some day, will now have to repeat that work.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    4. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To me freedom means "do whatever you want with it,"

      That's exactly the freedom the GPL guarantees. The GPL guarantees that every user of the software will have the freedom to do whatever they want with it. The only things prohibited by the GPL are actions that remove the freedom of others.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:BSD license by adri · · Score: 1

      Have you tried PC-BSD?

    6. Re:BSD license by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      You do know that the GPL's "strings and restrictions" are to prevent others from closed-sourcing the software and profiting from it, right? If you want that, that's up to you, as long as you know...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    7. Re:BSD license by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The distinction is that with GPL it's the code that's free, and with BSD it's the receiving developer. Both are legitimate models of freedom.

      As to FreeBSD not keeping up with Linux, it's largely because when people make a contribution, they don't want someone else to hide it away, make changes, and then keep them from access to those changes. The GPL ensures that the code stays free. The BSD gives the freedom to the receiving developer ... which isn't to the benefit of the donating developer. So a greater proportion of people are willing to develop GPL code. (Please note that in either case the proportion of developers using that specified license if very small. But closed source code tends to die faster than open source code, so over time open source code accumulates....though even open source code experiences bit-rot, which is why I didn't keep Gnome2 installed on my computer, even though I despise Gnome3 AND KDE4. Currently I'm using KDE4 as slightly less bad, and distros that tried to stick with Gnome2 are closing shop. Maybe Mate will eventually be an answer. But open source code also experiences bit rot...just not as rapidly as closed source code.
      This is relevant because BSD licensed code tends to become closed source as different groups apply changes to it and then relicense it. GPL code is less affected by this problem (though "less" certainly doesn't mean "not affected").

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re:BSD license by geek · · Score: 1

      Yes. It's got promise but right now it's just not there and the new rolling release version coming out doesn't inspire much confidence in me.

    9. Re:BSD license by geek · · Score: 1

      You do know that the GPL's "strings and restrictions" are to prevent others from closed-sourcing the software and profiting from it, right? If you want that, that's up to you, as long as you know...

      Yes, which is why I addressed that in my post. Not sure why you chose to skip over that.

    10. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. BSD guarantees that too. Even if BSD code is used in a propertiary project won't the source vanish. It's still there and everone has still the same freedom to do whatever they want with it. Contrary, GPL does NOT allow me to use it however I want. It actively removes the freedom to do certain things. That's not freedom. That's Stallman's version of freedom.

    11. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think he is asking why not simply state that this code is hereby made public domain.

    12. Re:BSD license by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      I was wondering if you thought there might be other restrictions...because you don't seem to *want* people to close & commercialize your work, but you have no problem with BSD-ish licenses, so it seems that unless you're wary of rules just because they're rules, the GPL should be an equally good candidate for what you want.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    13. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 2

      The BSD license enables additional freedoms that fit into things people may want to do with software that is specifically prohibited by the various GPLs.

      Which specific freedoms do you refer to here? Are there any such "freedoms" that don't amount to a restriction on the freedoms of end users?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    14. Re:BSD license by geek · · Score: 1

      I said I didn't care if it was closed source. Re-read my post.

    15. Re:BSD license by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 0

      Actually, you're not "giving up" any rights at all when you adopt a license, regardless of what it is. You're simply offering an agreement that allows others to do what you explicitly mention. It just so happens that the BSD license lets you do pretty much everything. That is, everything that doesn't violate one of the clauses of the license (copyright notice and copy of license must be retained with source and binary distribtions, and potentially that the author's name may not be used to promote derivative software). The only reason someone as a programmer can offer such an agreement and not be ignored is because you retain your rights.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    16. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Caught me between modpoints, but this is a very interesting post, particularly the bit about releasing smaller pieces separately as BSD, then including them in GPL code.

      A thought experiment: would Linux be better or worse off if it was BSD licensed? Ignoring the extensive history (e.g. would SCO have won?), Google is already pretty lazy about contributing, so they'd almost certainly not even bother. Even Red Hat might keep some of their changes to themselves, since they weren't too happy about supplying their patches to Oracle. Not sure about IBM or Novell. I'm also not sure what Intel contributes, but if it's for their hardware I imagine they'd be one of the few to keep it up. So I'm guessing it would be significantly worse off, but I admit I may be missing a number of things.

    17. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quote : > This is relevant because BSD licensed code tends to become closed source as different groups apply changes to it and then relicense it.

      That's bollocks. Totally nonsense of epic proportions. That is not only not right, it is not even wrong!
      You can't take away BSD code. That's what Stallman want to believe. But's it isn't true. BSD code is still BSD code and will remain so. No one can take away your sources.

    18. Re:BSD license by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Then why not make it public domain?

      Because copyright attaches automatically at creation, and in many jurisdictions (including, as I understand it, the US) there is no specific effect to a public domain declaration other than working as a poorly-specified gratuitous license. Which makes a well-specificed but non-restrictive gratuitous license generally preferable.

    19. Re:BSD license by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The distinction is that with GPL it's the code that's free, and with BSD it's the receiving developer. Both are legitimate models of freedom.

      I disagree. Developers (as moral actors) can have freedom. Code (as an abstraction that is not a moral actor) cannot; attributing freedom to code is simply an error, and limiting freedom for the actual people receiving and creating derivative works from code in order to protect the "freedom" misattributed to the code is not providing freedom, its (just like a commercial software license), limiting the freedom of the licensee to compel the licensee to act within the interests of the licensor.

    20. Re:BSD license by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      The BSD license guarantees that just as much. The difference is that it doesn't guarantee that you can do anything you want with a modified version of the software that was never BSD licensed in the first place. The GPL addresses that issue by removing the freedom for someone to create such a thing in the first place.

    21. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mentioned it; I'm not sure you addressed it. That said, it's rather misleading to claim that the GPL aims to prevent anyone from profiting, given that sale and commercial use are explicitly permitted. It's only closing the source and adding those strings and restrictions that you seem to dislike so much that's prohibited.

    22. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Even if BSD code is used in a propertiary project won't the source vanish. It's still there and everone has still the same freedom to do whatever they want with it.

      Irrelevant. The fact that some of the source is available doesn't enable the end user fix bugs in the software he actually uses. That's a violation of his rights.

      GPL does NOT allow me to use it however I want. It actively removes the freedom to do certain things.

      Specifically those "certain things" you are prohibited from are infringing on the freedoms of others.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    23. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The GPL addresses that issue by removing the freedom for someone to create such a thing in the first place.

      Infringing on the rights of others is not a "freedom".

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    24. Re:BSD license by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      I think he is asking why not simply state that this code is hereby made public domain.

      I'm so conflicted. Undo a moderation of the grandparent because the AC score 0 reply raises a teachable issue, or leave it to die in obscurity. Crap, I feel preachy...

      Because if the code is public domain, then you can modify it in any conceivable way and the original author(s) lose all ability to control not only use (which is the point of selecting the BSD license) but content, such as statements that "this code is public domain."

      Even in the simplified two paragraph BSD license you have (1) attribution (in the copyright notice) (2) an implicit requirement to indicate that the code is (was) available as BSD-licensed code (no suggestion by omission that GPL relicensed code is GPL or nothing) and (3) disclaimers of warranty and liability.

      You may as well ask why the Creative Commons "CC BY" license exists. Authors may simply want attribution, or in using BSD some additional protections, but not minor-to-smack-you-in-the-mouth restrictions on use and licensing (CC BY-SA to CC BY-NC-ND or, frankly, GPLv3).

    25. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >doesn't enable the end user fix bugs in the software he actually uses. That's a violation of his rights.

      WTH? Rubbish. How could that be a violation of his rights? He has no such rights.
      If the user uses the software based on the original BSD sources, fixes can be (but don't have to) provided by the original coder. Or himself.
      If he uses a derived software, the BSD-code using company or individual is responsible. Or himself if the modified sources are available.

      >Specifically those "certain things" you are prohibited from are infringing on the freedoms of others.

      Define "others". Define "freedom". GPL apostolates like you are quick to redefine word in their way and hammer all those who have a different definition.
      In my book the GPL is less free than BSD, MIT, etc. End of.
       

    26. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom to do whatever you want with a copy of the sources. No freedoms of an end user are ever restricted by BSD. Developers are end users, too.
      That's a point GPL wilfully forgets and ignores.

    27. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      No freedoms of an end user are ever restricted by BSD.

      Unless that end user receives a copy of that BSD program in binary format. In which case freedom 1 and freedom 3 are restricted.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    28. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Every software user is entitled to these four freedoms:
      The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
              The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
              The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
              The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    29. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD does not infringes these rights. No rights or freedom of others are restricted, limited, infringed. That GPL concept simply does not exist in BSD. It's moot.

    30. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      The right of an end user to fix the systems he owns is independent of the GPL. The GPL was created as a response to the infringement of that right. No rights at all derive from the GPL, the GPL derives from our rights. The GPL itself is merely a legal hack to work around the fact that we live in an oppressive country that does not protect our rights. The right thing to do is enshrine those rights in law.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    31. Re:BSD license by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      The GPL restricts what a developer can do with that code. If they make any modifications, and redistribute those modifications, they have to make the whole thing available as source. On the other hand, since you have already differentiated a developer as not an end user, the end user does not care about the source and thus loses nothing they consider valuable when a BSD-licensed chunk of code is reused in a closed source application.

    32. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      If they make any modifications, and redistribute those modifications, they have to make the whole thing available as source.... ...in order to ensure the end users have the same rights the developer enjoyed. How is it ethical to exercise your right to modify software and then deprive others of that right?

      the end user does not care about the source and thus loses nothing they consider valuable when a BSD-licensed chunk of code is reused in a closed source application.

      As an end user who does not develop, I care immensely about source being available. If source is unavailable, I lose the ability to have problems fixed by the community, or to hire someone to fix problems.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    33. Re:BSD license by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Because if the code is public domain, then you can modify it in any conceivable way and the original author(s) lose all ability to control not only use (which is the point of selecting the BSD license) but content, such as statements that "this code is public domain."

      Who cares?!? Copying the code and removing the statement "this code is in the public domain" does not remove the code from the public domain.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    34. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaving it vague means essentially, "You can use it however you'd like so long as you don't piss me off." You can waste a lot of time trying to codify that into legalese that will make your code more appealing to large, multi-national corporations that want to limit their exposure and, likely, find loopholes in your legalese or you can spend zero time leaving it intentionally vague, scare off the afore-mentioned large entities and have your code used by smaller organizations and individuals who understand and accept the informal rules about being a good Github citizen.

    35. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FreeBSD has never tried to "keep up" with Linux in terms of adding support for new whiz-bang features and such. Linux tries to just go as fast as it can while fixing bugs along the way in the hopes of mass adoption that may or may not ever happen.

      FreeBSD gives you all the tried-and-true stuff that just works. You know it works because it working is 99% of what the project cares about. When you make stuff that works as intended, you have a side effect of having a very secure system as well. However, as with anything that's done right, it takes longer to do. So support for new features, hardware, etc doesn't make it in for a while. It goes in after the Linux and Windows folks have found all the problems and code can be properly written to work correctly with it.

      In the end, it's all about priorities. Do you want a Ferrari that can go 200mph and has self-driving technology based on satellite navigation that might slam into a tree halfway to your destination? Or do you want a stick-shift Honda Accord that'll drive from LA to NYC and back over and over and over again for years on end without incident? The Ferrari is a much cooler car, much faster car, and has all the neat toys in there to play with along the way. The Honda looks boring, drives boring, but it'll live longer than you will and never let you down.

      FreeBSD isn't about being flashy. It's about server infrastructure being as reliable as a POTS line. You pick up the phone and you get a dial tone every time, no dropped calls, no interference, no dead battery. It's not cool and it's not pretty, but you never have to think twice about it working. In fact, when it isn't working, you're shocked and confused. You hadn't even considered the possibility that you wouldn't have a dial tone when you picked it up. Your cell phone (which may just run Linux) is flashier, cooler, and can die in an instant. It can lose signal, drop your call, make it impossible to hear the other end, and none of it will surprise you. You're used to that, because it's a cell phone.

    36. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To me freedom means "do whatever you want with it,"

      That's exactly the freedom the GPL guarantees. The GPL guarantees that every user of the software will have the freedom to do whatever they want with it.

      I want to be compensated for the fruits of my own efforts.

      Whoops.

    37. Re:BSD license by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Who cares?!? Copying the code and removing the statement "this code is in the public domain" does not remove the code from the public domain.

      No, it removes notice that the code is public domain. If you don't have the notice, you'd be a fool to use the code. Which is the point which started this part of the thread.

      This message brought to you by the department of redundancy department, second branch.

    38. Re:BSD license by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see. You are too myopic to see the myriad alternatives. if you can only see a world of "intellectual property" then the free exchange of ideas may have no meaning to you. People who want to use the code in "intellectual property" may have a problem. The rest of us do not.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    39. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the user voluntarily uses a binary-only program, then the user has voluntarily waived some freedoms.

      Stallman and the GPL fans have never answered this question - why can't a person waive their freedoms?

    40. Re:BSD license by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Ah, I see. You are too myopic to see the myriad alternatives.

      No. I am highly focused on the world as it is, not the world as you wish it to be. Although you may wish that copyright did not exist, or only applied to code which was marked as being copyrighted, there is this minor matter known as the Berne Convention, and implementing legislation such as 17 USC 102, which mean that by default you assume that works are copyrighted, and then need to ascertain whether the copyright has lapsed or whether there is a license (such as explicit dedication to the public domain). Unless you're willing to walk away from any work you've put into your 'assumed' public domain code, you cannot rely upon the lack of a copyright marking (17 USC 405), even assuming that you can prove that you've obtained an authorized copy so as to take advantage of an innocent infringement defense.

      People who want to use the code in "intellectual property" may have a problem. The rest of us do not.

      The people with the guns and the power to seize your property disagree. They will make it your problem. That is the world that you live in as well.

      I'll be happy to introduce you to people who reject a world of "material property," and will be willing to take anything unguarded which appears useful. You can argue with them after they've carted off your computer about who has what problem and whether there is a natural right to 'own' property which you've abandoned by going somewhere else.

    41. Re:BSD license by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      if you can only see a world of "intellectual property" then the free exchange of ideas may have no meaning to you. People who want to use the code in "intellectual property" may have a problem. The rest of us do not.

      (c) 1999-2001 Rob Riggs. All rights reserved.

      The footer of your personal website for more than a decade. Hypocrite.

    42. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Public domain is not the same as not specifying a license. To release something into the "public domain" has a special meaning: Public domain at Wikipedia.

    43. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because without a specific license attached companies and individuals alike wont touch it.

      Says who? Ever heard of SQLite?

    44. Re:BSD license by byuu · · Score: 1

      And the GPL infringes on the rights of developers to do whatever they want. Like use it with another library that is not GPL, even over something as simple as a "do no evil" or "non-commercial only" clause (because they're vague legal concepts.) Or release it to an app store (GPLv3 and iOS/Metro.)

      It's really not a hard concept. The GPL takes rights from developers (they have to release not just their changes [LGPL], but their own code as well), to guarantee rights to users through multiple iterations. BSD/ISC gives rights to everyone, developers and users alike, but can't guarantee rights of modified versions, that's up to the subsequent developers.

      Both have their uses. I personally prefer my library code to be ISC, and my client application code to be GPL. We need more pragmatism, and less dogmatism, with software licenses. I support a developer's choice to use whatever license they want for their code. And if they want to use GPL code, they can accept the license or write their own.

    45. Re:BSD license by byuu · · Score: 1

      You're blurring things by saying rights all the time. Nobody has an intrinsic right to code someone else wrote. People have permissions granted to them. The BSD/ISC license gives *more* permissions, by way of restricting less things, than the GPL. You're elevating the GPL as though people have a birthright to own code. If you don't like that you don't have source code to something, you don't have to use it. And rights cut both ways, if every user had a right to code written; then developers would lose their rights. Some developers want the right to earn a paycheck from writing and selling their code.

      GPL proponents speaking in this way come off as though they are entitled to the hard work of others.

    46. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No licenses = All rights reserved. But you really can just drop it into public domain. Just renounce your copyright and it'd done.

      This post is public domain.

    47. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The freedom to be forced to publish the modified source code.

    48. Re:BSD license by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Nobody has an intrinsic right to code someone else wrote.

      Everyone has an intrinsic right to the information they need to repair the devices they own.

      Some developers want the right to earn a paycheck from writing and selling their code.

      And nothing about respecting the rights of end users conflicts with that. Free software even presents you with additional opportunities to earn money fixing code written by others.

      GPL proponents speaking in this way come off as though they are entitled to the hard work of others.

      Not at all. Just entitled to recieve source code with it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    49. Re:BSD license by Pav · · Score: 1

      It's the same reason people can't waive their right to a contract cooling-off period (at least in my juristiction), or a myriad of other laws and conventions. A community can have rules, but these rules should be binding or they're more-or-less meaningless. If you feel like starting your own GPG (General Public Guidelines) feel free.

    50. Re:BSD license by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Oh please. If I write some code, compile it, and give away the binaries or offer them for sale it's not infringing on anybody's rights. If I hold a gun to your head and make you use it I'm infringing significantly more important rights than your "right" to tinker with someone else's work.

    51. Re:BSD license by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      That's not entirely in the public domain. I release stuff under many licenses, as well as putting them in the public domain. I usually have a very clear idea of what I choose to do and why I do it. And my views have certainly evolved in the past 14 years since that statement was initially attached to that website. Besides, people have made (and continue to make) fair use of code and images published on that site.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    52. Re:BSD license by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, i could go into a long involved explanation of exactly what I meant by "with GPL it's the code that's free", but I'll agree that it's a possibly confusing shorthand for an argument that might well take a paragraph to explain precisely.

      Yes, the moral agent is not (yet) the code itself, and when the code does become a moral agent it will not be protectable by the GPL. So interpreted literally that statement is false. It is a shorthand for (approximately) "The GPL is a license intended to ensure that future developments around any particular code base will remain free, and is intended to ensure that any useful code that is licensed under that license will remain useful to a wide community of users and developers as it is further developed." Even that's an oversimplification of the actual idea for which "The code is free (as opposed to the developer)" is intended to stand as shorthand. A full statement would probably be longer than the license...and different practitioners would argue over details of the meaning even then. So if the shorthand phrase isn't sufficient, probably the best thing is to point you to the license. (The GPL version 2, as least, is pretty easy to understand, even though not all details are totally clear. )

      If it doesn't suit your purposes, then use code that's under another license. For some purposes it's not the correct license. For other purposes it's hard to improve on.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    53. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can complete the sentence "The only things prohibited by it are..." with any non-empty set, you can't say "do whatever you want with it" is being offered.

    54. Re:BSD license by alexofoslo · · Score: 0

      I think you're confusing rights with privileges. Software licenses grant privileges, not rights. There's typically a sentence in licenses that says something along the lines of "if you don't agree with these terms, you may not use this software," i.e. you lose your privilege to it. When you choose to use GPL software, you agree to its terms, including the one that says that your own work has to be GPL as well. If those terms seem unreasonable to you, then don't accept them. Nobody's being forced to do anything here. Where in the world did you get this idea that developers have (or should have) the right to "do whatever they want?"

    55. Re:BSD license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why not make it public domain? Why attach a license at all?

      Perhaps surprisingly, there are jurisdictions where "public domain" has no legal meaning. Even worse, there are jurisdictions where it effectively means "property of the state".

    56. Re:BSD license by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Even worse, there are jurisdictions where it effectively means "property of the state".

      Citation required...

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  6. Missing the point. by Microlith · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I see the two comments up top completely missing the point, as does the original submitter.

    only about 15% of them had a clearly identifiable license in their top-level directories.

    This is why. And this is because they don't understand copyright law and don't realize that unless they explicitly put the code into the public domain or apply a license, no one can touch it without violating copyright law.

    It's probably a mixture of that and outright laziness.

    1. Re:Missing the point. by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      I believe they are commenting on how the vast majority of the developers who declared a software license picked something other than GPL.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    2. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wikipedia... "GitHub offers both paid plans for private repositories, and free accounts for open source projects."

      If the title were actually true, then it basically is saying "Github is good money".

    3. Re:Missing the point. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Which comprises a whole 15% of all projects. I would like to see what the numbers would be if that percentage was greater. Who knows, it may shift.

    4. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if by "clearly identifiable" do they mean is it a 1:1 text match for a recognized set of licenses? What about taking one and slightly modifying it? What about something like "Use this code however you want for whatever you want"... what about "I am releasing this code into the public domain"? or anything like that?

    5. Re:Missing the point. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      How is it not a Free Software license?

      Really if you're going to make these kinds of statements, it'd help to answer the obvious question in your post...

    6. Re:Missing the point. by larry+bagina · · Score: 2

      Wikipedia is poorly worded. They have paid accounts (with private repositories) and free accounts (with public repositories). You can have an open source project in a private repository. You can have a closed source project in a public repository.

      --
      Do you even lift?

      These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

    7. Re:Missing the point. by geek · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I'm not used to spoon feeding people

    8. Re:Missing the point. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      So you're unwilling, or unable, to defend your statement.

    9. Re:Missing the point. by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      I'm more inclined that if the developers wanted to use the GPL license then they would have explicitly declared it. It is more likely they intended their work to be in the public domain but didn't realize that current copyright law requires you to explicitly forfeit your copyright rights.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    10. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      GPLv3 protects the Four Freedoms.
      It's a free software license according to FSF, an open source license according to OSI.
      It's FOSS according to everybody but you. What extra requirements do you have for a software license to count as "free"?

    11. Re:Missing the point. by Lundse · · Score: 1

      Your trolling just jumped the shark...

      --
      IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
    12. Re:Missing the point. by Jonner · · Score: 2

      I see the two comments up top completely missing the point, as does the original submitter.

      only about 15% of them had a clearly identifiable license in their top-level directories.

      This is why. And this is because they don't understand copyright law and don't realize that unless they explicitly put the code into the public domain or apply a license, no one can touch it without violating copyright law.

      It's probably a mixture of that and outright laziness.

      I don't think it was explained well enough in either TFA or the Slashdot summary. However, it does say that only about 15% had clearly identifiable licenses and that GitHub's default is "all rights reserved". Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that the vast majority of code on GitHub is not Free or Open Source software, but is licensed as "all rights reserved". If I understand correctly, that means that technically, no one has permission to even download the code from GitHub, let alone extend and share it.

    13. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, I'm not used to spoon feeding people

      You acknowledge that your dislike of GPLv3 is a matter of opinion, as opposed to something that can be derived objectively by studying the licence, and yet you assume that everyone else will know what you're talking about with no explanation?

    14. Re:Missing the point. by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      This is why. And this is because they don't understand copyright law and don't realize that unless they explicitly put the code into the public domain or apply a license, no one can touch it without violating copyright law.

      It's probably a mixture of that and outright laziness.

      Is this actually a really big deal? Given the massive number of repositories which probably contain nothing of great consequence, is anybody ever going to really need to fork more than 15% of what is on GitHub? And if they do, in most cases they can just ask the author for a license.

      And, not being able to 'touch' may not matter if the author just intended for people to look. It doesn't really matter if something is GPL, proprietary or BSD if all I want is to see an example of how somebody used an obscure and poorly documented API. There are tons of libraries where a working example is worth a thousand apidoc pages that just give terse statements about functions in isolation.

      Yeah, there are probably a lot of people who don't understand copyright and either think that they can use something because it is on github, or think that they don't need to pick a license for people to use their code. Most people are stupid. News at 11:00.

    15. Re:Missing the point. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      He said it's not a "free software license". Not a "Free Software license."

      Free Software is Stallman's definition of free, and the GPL is such a license. You can look it up on the web site. On the other hand, the GPL is not as free as other licenses. It gives away fewer of the reserved rights of the copyright owner than other licenses.

    16. Re:Missing the point. by geek · · Score: 1

      No, just not going to do your homework for you. I really don't give a shit if you like it or not.

    17. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can have a closed source project in a public repository.

      While public repositories can certainly contain code that falls short of the popular definition of open source, I would say it's a bit of a stretch to call it "closed" when it's in full public view like that. I'm thinking "ajar source" might be about right.

    18. Re:Missing the point. by VirtualVirtuality · · Score: 1

      But couldn't it just be that github is a massive dumping ground for anything code-like, from the tiniest snippets to dot files, stuff which few thinks warrant a licence.

    19. Re:Missing the point. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really don't give a shit

      That sums it up nicely, I guess. Good to know. Thanks.

  7. I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    inherent in the free-as-I-say-so GPL. True software freedom doesn't come with strings attached.

    1. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      And no true Scotsman would murder his wife. The GPL's strings will never get in anyone's way unless they're trying to take a piece of free software, closed source it and redistribute it - typically with the intention of profiting on others' work while contributing nothing in return.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    2. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by geek · · Score: 1

      If that were true then why isn't GPLv3 being widely adopted? Even the Linux kernel remains GPLv2.

    3. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Moving from GPLv2 to GPLv3 requires the consent of all contributors, there are a lot of holdouts among kernel developers (even Linus is against it - although it seems to be because he sees himself as an "apolitical" developer).

      The big difference between the GPLv2 and v3 is just the anti-tivoization - closing a major loophole in the GPLv2 but hardly a difference in overall philosophy.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    4. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by geek · · Score: 1

      Moving from GPLv2 to GPLv3 requires the consent of all contributors, there are a lot of holdouts among kernel developers (even Linus is against it - although it seems to be because he sees himself as an "apolitical" developer).

      Which was exactly my point.............

    5. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by Lundse · · Score: 2

      Because some people think "free" can only mean that they are personally free to do whatever they want. Just like any free society has no laws against murder.

      --
      IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
    6. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The big difference between the GPLv2 and v3 is just the anti-tivoization - closing a major loophole in the GPLv2 but hardly a difference in overall philosophy

      The "anti-tivoization" introduce use-based restrictions on GPL software (which is a major change in philosophy from GPLv3), and only apply limits to software with certain intended uses (creating a difference between what is "free" -- from the FSF point of view -- for "consumer" markets and what is "free" for "business" markets), another major change in philosophy.

      Because of the distinction in where the anti-tivoization limits apply, it also doesn't close any "loophole" that existed in GPLv2, it just prevents consumer devices incorporating GPLv3 software from providing certain features that are allowed in business devices incorporating GPLv3 software.

    7. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      it just prevents consumer devices incorporating GPLv3 software from providing certain features that are allowed in business devices incorporating GPLv3 software.

      Features like closed-source crap, hardware & platform lock-in? They can keep 'em.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Or trying to link against a library.

      The BSD, LGPL, not for commercial use, and other such licenses seem to me to be a good licenses. The GPL really strikes me as being kind of a bait and switch by Stallman to try to get everyone to buy into his philosophy.

    9. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Features like closed-source crap, hardware & platform lock-in? They can keep 'em.

      Either:
      1) The features prohibited to consumer (but not business) devices incorporating GPLv3 software are contrary to Software Freedom, and GPLv3 deliberately created a huge exception contrary to software freedom in one domain, or
      2) The features prohibited to consumer (but not business) devices incorporating GPLv3 software are not contrary to Software Freedom, and the GPLv3 limits the free choice of users and suppliers for a reason unrelated to software freedom.

      That you aren't interested in the features is irrelevant to software freedom.

    10. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by AaronLS · · Score: 1

      You made a lot of assumptions about the scenarios under which someone might want to use a open source project in another closed source project.

    11. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by AaronLS · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I recant, I misread and missed the "unless" part.

    12. Re:I think people are recognizing the hypocrisy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but often the intent of developing software is to solve a problem and let other people (including programmers!) use that solution instead of inventing the wheel. If you want to get every contribution back in exchange for limiting the scope of use, then you can choose GPL. If you want to get the widest scope of use, including inclusion in closed source projects, then you choose something like BSD.

  8. I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    BSD Licenses aren't "better" just different.

    For the little bits of Perl and C that share with the world BSD licenses are just fine. I'll lose no sleep if they end up in Microsoft's or Apple's O/S.

    But if I take the time to write a difficult Kernel driver I'm contributing arduous, "real," "could have been paid for it," work to a specific ecosystem that I want to protect. That's a different level of effort and a different license needed.

    Just different.

    1. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Meh, there's plenty of substantial work (coulda-been-paid-for-it) on GitHub.

      However, it's is nearly all web-related. And the GPL doesn't offer much for web code, because the resulting application is rarely "distributed" beyond the company who built it. BSDish licenses are just a better fit for what they're trying to accomplish.

    2. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by BasilBrush · · Score: 0

      But if I take the time to write a difficult Kernel driver I'm contributing arduous, "real," "could have been paid for it," work to a specific ecosystem that I want to protect.

      That's fine. But don't pretend that is providing more freedom than assigning a BSD license would. It's not. You are choosing to restrict the people that can use your code, and that's not a move for freedom.

    3. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More and less free is a strange axis for anything as complicated as a software license. It's like asking whether chickens are more or less Martian than pigs.

      GPL restricts what you can do with it, but restricts it to a long-term-available-for-free effort. Where BSD lacks this restriction, and the sometimes onerous limitations therewith, but can be taken and modified and sold back to people who no longer have the chance to examine and modify it.

      So what word should we use? I admit mathematically, adding constraints to a system doesn't make it more free, but when those constraints are in place to guarantee long term availability of source... What should we call that? It's still about freedom, no one is trying to lie here.

      For those of us not pretending, as you protest, what is the metric by which we should measure these licenses contribution to the overall good?

    4. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      For web code, they have the Affero GPL.

    5. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD Licenses aren't "better" just different.

      The difference:
      BSD = free as in free
      GPL = free as in restricted

    6. Re:I agree with all but the flame bait.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For web code, they have the Affero GPL.

      which is a fucking joke!

      NOBODY should be identifying the web software they're running on the public facing web site, nor should they be linking to the source code they're running.... which is exactly what AGPL requires.

      it's fucking STUPID STUPID STUPID to do that or require sites to.

      AVOID any and all AGPL licensed code. your web site depends on it.

  9. Internet noise may be to blame by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 0

    With all that loud screaming allover, the GPL and common sense can't be heard.

    Ignorance is bliss and many of these young project leaders probably are just that, plain ignorant.

    1. Re:Internet noise may be to blame by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Or perhaps they simply don't care about *your* ideals. That hardly implies that they are ignorant. I don't include licenses in my github projects because I simply don't give a fuck. Yes, that means that by default technically nobody can use it. In practice nobody gives a fuck, and everyone lived happily ever after.

      Screw permission culture.

  10. real software projects? by ssam · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am sure most of those 1.7 million projects have no aspiration to become a real software project. do they have a website, mailing list/forum, releases, users? or are they just random little scripts, snippits and exercises, just put on line for the education of others?

    For a large piece of coding i might care about getting bug fixes back. for the script i use to sort my digital photos in to folders based on the date in their exif, and is 50% lines pasted from documentation or stack exchange, i don't care. if you want to know which licences are used for serious projects then grab the top hundred or thousand from ohloh and check them.

    1. Re:real software projects? by metrometro · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most of what I've posted to Github was a snip of example code that I needed to share with exactly one person. The only real project I have there was AGPL, and it's an enormous piece of work. By project, I'm 5% open licensed. By lines-of-code, it's more like 99%.

    2. Re:real software projects? by afxgrin · · Score: 1

      They need to add a second factor to the statistics, like weighing it against the number of lines of code or number of contributors to make this meaningful.

    3. Re:real software projects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why put it on Github instead of Gist?

  11. Not just GitHub by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Speaking of kids: If you want an example of the latest tempest-in-a-teacup over open source licensing, look no further than Minecraft, which has sold upwards of 12 million copies on the PC alone. As the license for the game gives sole ownership rights of modifications to the game to their authors, the number of mods for the game have exploded. However, few, if any, of the mods for Minecraft are open source, which leads to complete incompatibility between most of them even while using open source APIs like Forge. When enterprising users attempt to gather together collections of these nominally independent mods to distribute in one package, they run headfirst into licensing and "permissions" issues, with many authors refusing to allow redistribution or modification of their work. How ironic.

  12. No license by Ceriel+Nosforit · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have uploaded the meagre, puny code that I've written in a small number of projects without bothering with a license. I expect people to steal it and be quiet about it, because I am the noise floor of github.

    Frankly for most projects on github (1.7 million is not a small number of computer software projects), legalese is a bother. It is simply uncouth and considered harmful.

    --
    All rites reversed 2010
    1. Re:No license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I agree with you in essence, as an absolute minimum there should at least be a liability/warranty disclaimer for obvious reasons.

    2. Re:No license by Microlith · · Score: 1

      It is simply uncouth and considered harmful.

      Lack of legalese is considered harmful, particularly in our litigious society. Code with no license is completely unusable and a liability, particularly if someone can claim to show a trail of ownership, which Github does establish.

    3. Re:No license by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      And yet, sadly, you could still be sued if your code breaks someone's project.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:No license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The code is perfectly usable by anyone in a country without Imaginary-Property laws, and by anyone that imagines they are in such a country, start there own country, or believe they are not in a country at all.
      The countries with Imaginary-Property laws may ban this software in there own country, and other countries may volenteerly agree to also ban this software, but there is no law that forces every country in the world to volunteer.

    5. Re:No license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No there should not. We do not need so many useless labels of 'milk may contain dairy products', 'peanut butter may contain peanuts', 'steaming coffee may be hot', 'darts may be sharp' or any of the other idiocy that has become standard on labels. The lawsuits that got those added should've been dismissed with extreme prejudice (not just ban the lawsuit from ever being stated again, but also disbar the prosecuting lawyer who decided to go along with the idea).

    6. Re:No license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world as you describe. In the real world, people are still smart for putting warning labels on things. Don't blame the person who ads the warning label. Blame the litigious legal system which makes them meaningful.

    7. Re:No license by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If I scrawl some code on a bathroom stall and you use it for something, it doesn't work, and you can sue me, you have a seriously broken system. I'm not American. And gladder of it every time something like this comes up.

      Selling something implicitly warrants its use. Explicitly warranting its use warrants its use. Uploading some code to a repository in a personal account doesn't, regardless of whether that account has safeguards to keep stupid people out.

    8. Re:No license by Frequency+Domain · · Score: 1

      I have uploaded the meagre, puny code that I've written in a small number of projects without bothering with a license. I expect people to steal it and be quiet about it, because I am the noise floor of github.

      Thus guaranteeing that nobody with a lick of sense in the corporate world will touch your stuff. If you didn't specify a license option of some sort, then (at least in the US) you hold copyright and anybody who uses your stuff without your explicit written permission is wide open to a law suit. A lot of folks think copyright is something you have to apply for, but registering a copyright is not necessary - that's merely a convenience to help support your claim if it ever gets contested.

    9. Re:No license by swilver · · Score: 1

      Same, I put my code there because its convenient for me. I don't care what other people do with it.

      If some corporation wants to use it, they can email me, and pay me for my time to add a license to every file.

    10. Re:No license by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 1

      Missed the point completely.

      If I use code without a license attached, whether it works or not, I could at any time be sued for that use, in most of the world thanks to the Berne Convention. Not frivolously sued, as in an overly litigious society. I mean properly and rightfully sued because I violated someone's copyright.

      This has nothing to do with whether the code works, whether it is fit for purpose, or whether it is warranted. This is just about the use of the code. Code with no license is a unusable because I can be sued by the copyright owner just for having used it. It is a liability because I am very likely to lose.

    11. Re:No license by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      Lack of legalese is considered harmful, particularly in our litigious society.

      Perhaps using no license is an act of resistance to litigious society?

    12. Re:No license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps using no license is an act of resistance to litigious society?

      In the same way as not getting rid of the fence around your own house (which was already there when you moved in) is an act of resistance to a community with too many fences.

      Copyright law, by default, puts the biggest fence around everything. It's up to you to add openings in the fence, and those openings are called a license. (Not EULA, which is not a license but an attempt to force a contact by insisting that the end user is agreeing to something whether he agrees or not).

    13. Re:No license by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I think I replied to the wrong post. There was somebody who said that every project should at least carry a statement of warranty and liability, lest the poster get sued.

      In this case I think you've pointed out precisely what people are after: if it doesn't have a pile of legalese tacked on somewhere it's for individuals to play with. If you want to go and use it for profit you need to talk to the author and work out an agreement.

    14. Re:No license by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      And yet, sadly, you could still be sued if your code breaks someone's project.

      you can be sued anytime. doesn't mean that the suing is going to work. a no warranty notifier doesn't change that. in fact, a no warranty notifier sort of implies that it is a "product" to be "used". and you don't get out of having to provide a warranty on a "product" by putting a disclaimer on it.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    15. Re:No license by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Disclaimers don't get you out of everything, but they can get you out of some things. Project Gutenberg didn't have any kind of license until their lawyers told them they better put one to reduce their risk.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  13. GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I work in firmware, and there are significant problems with leveraging GPL code. In general, we can't do it and fulfill security obligations within the critical sector I work in.

    I have some hobby projects going on, and I always license BSD, because I want them to actually be useful to someone. In my line or work, we don't even consider GPL code as something that's possible to leverage, and it's not just legal paranoia - it really can't be done in my business and many others.

    1. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > it really can't be done in my business and many others.

      No. It just can't be done in your business.

      You are the extreme fringe. Don't try to kid yourself.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by ssam · · Score: 1

      so you can't take GPL code and use it to build a locked down product. that is the point of GPL.

    3. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need to use third party software and meet tight deadlines. There are very few options for products which satisfy the requirements. Vendors sell their products with proprietary licenses, and sometimes we can modify for our use. We cannot link this stuff with GPL code without violating the vendor's license.

      The problem is imposed by deadlines, vendor licensing agreements, customer requirements, and laws. It's not simply a one-company ideological problem to overcome.

      I truly don't think this situation is all that unusual. Mind you, I have little experience in the software/desktop/app sector. I only speak from the hardware/firmware sector. We can use embedded Linux, but generally can't use very much GPL application code in user space.

      As far as being "locked down", this is not a consumer product, and our customers actually want something that is as locked down as possible, and there are good reasons for this.

    4. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Microlith · · Score: 1

      Note that this is only true for GPLv3 or later. GPLv2 software can still be used in that manner.

    5. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by AuMatar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Welcome to the point. If you aren't willing to open source your code as well, then I don't want you to use mine. You can pay someone to write your own version. Pay in cash or pay in code, but no free ride to businesses.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      True, GPL'd code is used in drone control stations so this guy must be working in Area 51's tinfoil hat department. How could GPL'd code possibly be bad for security just by the license alone?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    7. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      In general, we can't do it and fulfill security obligations within the critical sector I work in.

      Huh? The GPL hasn't stopped, e.g., GPG from being as secure as anything else out there. If you think the GPL prevents you from writing secure code, you don't understand the GPL. Here's a hint, encryption keys are data, not code.

      If you can't publish your code and remain confident that your product is secure, then your product is insecure whether or not you publish code.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Computer people understand this, but lawyers and law makers don't.

    9. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He means that if everyone could see the gaping holes, an auditor would see them too. Fat chance him finding it in a binary. Remember, the goal of the airport security is to catch the test objects put by auditors, NOT bombs.

    10. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's like DRM for code huh? Seems contrary to the Utopian code sharing universe of the free-software movement. Why not just make it closed source and pay per download in that case? It's not truly free nor intended for free sharing. It's a license generated to combat fear; the fear of having someone become successful using your code. If that's the case, why even share "freely"?

    11. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The GPLv3 requires that you be able to modify the running code as well. It could well be a security concern for, say, an ATM, if it has to have a user accessible way to modify the code it's running.

    12. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not really a free ride. Even if I took your free code and resold it, why the hell would anyone buy it when they could get it for free? Unless they enhance the code by adding more code or providing services around it like hosting and support, then in that case why do you care if someone else is making money on it when they are providing more value than you were able to create? If that business decides not to open their code, then why do you care?

    13. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider any device which is safety critical - medical, automotive, avionics - and in which there is substantial chance of harm from someone modifying the software, reprogramming the device, and killing someone. Even to be compliant to LGPL, one has to provide a relinking kit with the LGPL software and binaries for your closed source application. Change the LGPL code in a way that breaks the application and you get anti-lock brakes which become anti-stop brakes. The potential legal exposure (even if you could win) from an idiot being able to easily break the safety of your device is not worth the value of using GPL/LGPL code.

      Your drone controller case is a red herring. The end user is the military. Any source required will be delivered by a contractor to the military. In turn the military will have strict control over modifications and what is running. They won't be randomly changing bits. Besides even if they do and kill someone, they will avoid any liability.

      The issue is mass market safety critical products (e.g. embedded controllers in cars being one big class) and medical devices where the possibility of a change at the local level would not only invalidate the FDA device certification, it could kill someone. The device manufacturer would almost certainly lose the case because they enabled and allowed unsafe modifications by unqualified users. Even if they managed to win, it would cost too much to defend.

      Brick your router or phone -- no one cares. Brick or break an MRI machine or cause uncontrolled acceleration and loss of braking.. you lose big time. Morally, legally, and monetarily.

      I like the GPL and have 25+ years of embedded systems experience. I generally avoid GPL code on target hardware which can impact application deployments and create situations in which the device can be broken and result in damages.

    14. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      No its *required* for the Utopian code sharing universe of free software. The goal isn't for every dev to have free access to my code to save them work- its for every user to have access to *all* of the code to *all* of their programs, so they can alter and improve them. Allowing people to make closed source derivatives actually harms this goal by making it easier to make a complex piece of closed source software. My goal isn't maximum usage, its to ensure that the code remains free in every version for all time.

      You don't like it? Spend the time and money to write your own. If you don't support my ideals, you don't get the fruits of my labor.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    15. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The GPLv3 requires that you be able to modify the running code as well. It could well be a security concern for, say, an ATM, if it has to have a user accessible way to modify the code it's running.

      Because the FSF, in its wisdom, has apparently decided businesses might actually need to have tamper-proof devices, the "anti-tivoization" provisions of the GPLv3 exclude business devices and apply only to consumer devices ("consumer devices" are defined, however, rather broadly.)

      Of course, one might question whether you really want your "free" software license to be directing allowable feature sets of hardware devices incorporating the software, and different allowable feature sets based on the target market.

    16. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Oh, you can absolutely take my code and sell it- but you can't include it in a non-free project. If you can add value to it great- just provide it back to the community. My goal is that any program I own should be open source so I can alter and improve it. If you close source a derivative, you've actively hurt my goal and philosophy, and done so off the back of my work. Why the hell should I help you do that? My goal isn't to maximize usage of my code, its to maximize the amount of freedom I have over the software I use. Only the GPL does that.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    17. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly: if I use even a tiny bit of your code, I must "pay" with my entire codebase. That demand for "compensation" that is likely far out of proportion to your contribution is worth is exactly the problem.

      You permissively license your code, and I'll permissively license any of mine I think you might find useful. Using your analogy, that's a "pay what you think it is worth" or "pay what you can" model instead of the copyleft "you must pay with everything you no matter what" model.

    18. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's a bug, which is why gplv3 exists in the first place

    19. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      If you don't like the cost, don't use it.

      You seem to be under the impression that I want as many people as possible to use my code. That isn't my goal. I really don't care if you choose not to use my code because it costs too much, it doesn't harm me at all.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    20. Re:GPL is poison to many business models. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That's one of the things that bothers me about the GPL, particularly v3. The FSF has admitted some of the provisions are hinderances, but they want the GPL to be popular, so they've compromised their position and put in exceptions.

      So if I'm Cisco and I'm making a router with GPL code for "home" use I need to make it user updatable, but if I'm making a router for "business" use, it doesn't have to be? What if I just label all my products "enterprise" and let the home users think they're getting the good stuff?

      Personally, if I don't want something used for commercial purposes I'll license it explicitly that way. If I want to protect the integrity of my code itself but I don't mind linking I'll use the LGPL. If I don't care at all I'll pick a BSD-ish license, or do like "the kids do," apparently, and just post it on GitHub as is.

  14. The Public Domain by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 2

    Personally, this is why I feel that the recent invention of the "automatic copyright" grant is an epic fail. By default all published works should be in the public domain. Only those that are explicitly marked by the author with a copyright and a license should be protected.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    1. Re:The Public Domain by Great+Big+Bird · · Score: 2

      The previous to 'automatic copyright' was registered copyright. The amount of paperwork required for that would be amazing overall.

    2. Re:The Public Domain by metrometro · · Score: 1

      If only there were a global information system capable of streamlining the transmission and storage of "paperwork".

    3. Re:The Public Domain by Lundse · · Score: 1

      Indeed, and maybe some mathematical wizardry that would allow a small string to uniquely identify a huge string, such as code...

      --
      IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
    4. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think of the internet. Now increase the overhead by 10% for all those systems that automatically copy and transmit retention of copyright. Does that _really_ sound better than a system that accomplishes the same thing without the accompanying mountain of bullshit?

      First rule of design: don't fix problems that don't exist.

    5. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how about creation of the paperwork? Registration of copyright would most likely take lots of work, even if it consisted of simply filling forms on the Internet. And would it be USA-specific, or worldwide? Or would you need to register the copyright in all other countries, too?

      In my opinion, the current license system works fine in this case. Making the default "no copyright" would mean developers would have to take legal risks when the status is uncertain. What if someone simply forgot to supply the license of a licensed project at some point, someone who is not the original rights owner? Competitors would gain an advantage using non-licensed work, so you would have to do it yourself and accept the risks.

    6. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even the Internet could handle that much paperwork.

    7. Re:The Public Domain by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Not at all. The number of copyrighted works would plummet to acceptable levels (with the value of ideas being added to the public domain returning to normal, healthy levels), rather than the copyright pandemic we are currently experiencing. The only thing deserving of copyright protection are those things that the creator deems valuable enough to seek copyright protection. And then we could do interesting things like exponentially scale the cost of registration based on the duration the author wishes to maintain their monopoly on the work.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    8. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only those that are explicitly protected by the author are an issue.

      If you create something, and therefore you hold the copyright to it, then you're free to release it freely to the world if that's your intent.

      Copyright registration is the epic fail, because you would have to look up each work individually to determine whether it was subject to copyright and the false sense of security in not finding the registration would cause far-reaching damage. Even if works defaulted to the public domain, you'd still be responsible for infringement action. Saying, "I didn't see a copyright notice so I assumed I could do whatever I wanted with it" doesn't work any better in court if you make everyone pay a filing fee to register a copyright for every new work.

      Instead, if you assume it's copyrighted as you must in the real world, then you're looking for evidence of license or release to the public domain, a perfectly legitimate exercise for a commercial enterprise.

    9. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does the music industries, which gladly exploited black music for decades, since blues artists "conveniently" forgot to register their works, while the white record labels made sure their recordings of same were registered... you really want to go back to those days, when just those with money got copyright?

    10. Re:The Public Domain by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Do I want to go back to those days? Absolutely. Having that music in the public domain is part of cultural wealth of the United States. The copyright of performances of white artists playing music put in the public domain by black musicians and songwriters did not remove that music from the public domain. We are all wealthier together for the gift those artists gave us. Disney does the same thing with Mother Goose, Bros Grimm, HCA, etc. Those works are all still in the public domain. You are free to copy them and adapt the original stories.

      Were there inequities? Sure. But I would argue that the we are paying a much heavier cost today. Besides, the music industry has found new and improved ways to rape and pillage the artists they purport to represent. The poor and uneducated will always be at a disadvantage. No one can argue that the IP regime we have today is a just system. Might still makes right. Whoever can afford the most lawyers wins.

      We now have a place to easily and instantly publish ideas which provides permanent proof of what is in the public domain. Let's use it.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    11. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to have lost any means of imagining a different world than the one you currently live in. Some of us imagine a world were things slip easily into the public domain and copyright costs a shitload to protect. Today we have a system were nothing enters the public domain. The cost of protecting copyright is a huge burden, a cost borne by all of humanity instead of by the copyright holders themselves.

    12. Re:The Public Domain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This discussion is not about imagining a different world. It's about whether "automatic copyright" creates or solves any problems. It does not. Switching back to a system requiring a copyright notice and a registration certificate accomplishes nothing.

      Releasing something to the public domain today is not difficult.

      What you really have a problem with is simple human nature. Commercially valuable creations will be protected no matter what you do to the legal regime. There are always tools to protect things of economic value. There is no burden on protecting copyright, because all you need to do is make something non-infringing. It doesn't even rise to the level of patents where you might argue that the only viable method is patented and society is stuck until others can use that patent freely.

      If you think that making copyright "cost a shitload to protect" would place a burden on copyright holders that wouldn't be passed--with markup--to all of humanity, then you need to spend a lot less time imagining and a lot more time in reality.

  15. it goes back and forth by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    It goes back and forth, developers follow trends.

    Right now the trend is to focus on the viral, strict portions of the GPL, which prevent people from using code if they don't want to share back. This trend probably started around the time of GPL3.0

    In a few years, people will realize that corporations are taking their code and not giving back, and they'll get upset, and a lot of them will start using the GPL. Then some other life event will happen and they'll switch back.

    It's worth mentioning that the vast majority of code on github isn't worth sticking a license on, because it's so short, my code included. I did add a license to my project though, and it doubled the size of the repository. It was embarrassing.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:it goes back and forth by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      strict portions of the GPL, which prevent people from using code if they don't want to share back,

      Nope it doesn't do that.

      It stops them distributing without giving back.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:it goes back and forth by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Good point.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:it goes back and forth by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Right now the trend is to focus on the viral, strict portions of the GPL, which prevent people from using code if they don't want to share back. This trend probably started around the time of GPL3.0

      Focus on the copyleft/viral nature of GPL started a long time before GPLv3.

      Focus on market-specific restrictions on hardware devices incorporating code licensed under GPLv3 started around the time of GPLv3 (because GPLv3 was the first version to incoporate those restrictions.)

    4. Re:it goes back and forth by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the amount of negativity against the GPL expanded around the time of 3.0. Even Linus was getting in on it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:it goes back and forth by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the amount of negativity against the GPL expanded around the time of 3.0.

      Right, because the content of the GPL changed at exactly the time of GPLv3.

      But the copyleft part of it wasn't what changed, and wasn't the focus of the new negativity.

    6. Re:it goes back and forth by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, we would have to do some kind of study to be sure, but my perception was that the animosity towards the GPL in general, among developers, expanded a lot around that time. I could be wrong, but that was my perception.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  16. Single data point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Q:How can you draw trend conclusions from it? A:You can't!

    And for all you permissive license supporters, get your facts straight http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2012/02/gpl_d_debian_software_skew/

    1. Re:Single data point... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry, can you explain what point you're trying to make from that link? All I can see is uncertainty over their own results.

  17. Programmers don't want to be lawyers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I suspect that part of the reason many open-source developers don't formally license their work is that they haven't taken the time to understand the differences between all the different licenses. It's hard enough to pick one when you're publishing something that is entirely your own work. It becomes much harder to determine which license the work should be under when it depends on libraries using different licenses.

    Personally, I license all my own work under the BSD license to maximize its potential for inclusion into works using other licenses. If I were to use the GPL, I would be restricting the use of my code to projects under GPL-compatible licenses. And that would be a dick move.

    1. Re:Programmers don't want to be lawyers. by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Personally, I license all my own work under the BSD license to maximize its potential for inclusion into works using other licenses. If I were to use the GPL, I would be restricting the use of my code to projects under GPL-compatible licenses. And that would be a dick move.

      I could understand it being seen as a dick move if you took code from BSD-ish licensed projects...but otherwise, why would it be?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  18. I blame Apple. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to bet that the majority of github users are on Macs.

    10 years ago a *nix nerd would have a completely free desktop. Their 2013 equivalent has had the taste of sweet, juicy, proprietary GUI. They scoff at an X workstation as something nobody would want to use. They like taking from open source because it's free goodies, but they don't want to go "the full Stallman".

    I think it's fine to embrace a proprietary software while still using open source, but I do think it's sad that these people don't have more respect for the Stallmanesque idealists. They've had good ideas over the years and they've created a body of great work. It's a shame to see so many consider it "unacceptable" to use a free desktop.

  19. GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

    The GPL was created with the notion that every strata of software must be free and open. That's fine and lovely for Stallman but it provides unrealistic restrictions for commercial use. Businesses and individual developers alike donate resources to these communal properties for the benefit of all in a share and share alike manner so that we can focus resources on our real goal--the software we actually want to write and sell. In Stallman's idealistic world perhaps everyone would be communist and no one would care about money and possessions because we'd just step up to a replicator and say "earl grey, hot." But, this idealism does not match the reality on the ground. We depend upon commerce to provide for ourselves and our families.

    If you don't like it and want to do something about it then you will have to solve the ultimate problem that has plagued mankind from the beginning, the scarcity of resources, and contention for the same.

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    1. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Microlith · · Score: 1

      it provides unrealistic restrictions for commercial use.

      Not really. Unless your "commercial use" involves controlling the end user in some fashion.

      We depend upon commerce to provide for ourselves and our families.

      You've presented nothing to indicate how the GPL directly inhibits this, particularly with how much GPL software is used in commercial products today.

    2. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Hatta · · Score: 2

      The GPL was created with the notion that every strata of software must be free and open. That's fine and lovely for Stallman but it provides unrealistic restrictions for commercial use.

      You could say the same about all of our rights. The fact that a right is inconvenient for businesses to respect is not reason to abandon that right. You might as well say "That's fine and lovely for Lincoln, but it provides unrealistic restrictions for plantations".

      Businesses and individual developers alike donate resources to these communal properties for the benefit of all in a share and share alike manner so that we can focus resources on our real goal--the software we actually want to write and sell.

      So, go ahead and write and sell your software. Nothing in the GPL prevents that, and there are people who make a living today writing and selling GPL software. If businesses were restricted by law from infringing on the four software freedoms, it would be even easier to make a living writing and selling free software.

      In Stallman's idealistic world perhaps everyone would be communist and no one would care about money and possessions because we'd just step up to a replicator and say "earl grey, hot."

      What a ridiculous strawman. Protecting the rights of consumers is not communism. There's nothing more communistic about the four software freedoms than any of the other consumer rights we protect by law.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Quite simple. The GPL is viral in nature. The publisher of any intellectual property derived from or incorporating GPL'd works is itself required to provide free, unrestricted, access to the source code of that property. In so doing the GPL devalues that intellectual property by reducing if not nullifying scarcity.

      While it may be possible to establish alternate sources of revenue by selling value added services such packaging or support, it isn't always practical if even possible. In the world of physical goods it makes sense that customers would prefer to pay the restaurant to assemble their burger for them rather than provide them with the ingredients, a recipe, and/or advice on how to assemble and eat it. But when the cost of transformation and reproduction is negligible and no support is required is is next to impossible to derive ROI.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    4. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Where do you work? How do you provide a living for yourself and your family? How do you ensure an equitable return on investment in intellectual property in relation to physical goods when access to intellectual property is minimally fettered by scarcity--the driver of value in physical goods? You cannot have communal intellectual property while retaining capitalistic notions on physical goods without destroying the ability to trade the former for the later.

      If communism is a straw man what they hell is a plantation owner?

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    5. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Hatta · · Score: 1

      How do you ensure an equitable return on investment in intellectual property in relation to physical goods when access to intellectual property is minimally fettered by scarcity--the driver of value in physical goods?

      By charging for things that are scarce. The time of an experienced developer, for instance.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by king+neckbeard · · Score: 0

      "GPL is viral"
      check.
      "intellectual property"
      check.


      Go to bed, Ballmer, you've got a long day of throwing chairs ahead of you.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    7. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      You can't just give a glib, nonsensical answer and expect that to be satisfactory do you? How that would translate into practical application? As a developer working for a company I could charge them for the privilege of having me occupy a seat and perform services. However, if the product of that company was intellectual property, lets say software which they must effectively give away--by requirement of the GPL to give unrestricted access to the source-code--how would they recover on their investment in me? Or lets make it more simple. If I were both developer and publisher of retail software, what would be my source of income?

      The thing I find ironic about many (most?) of the advocates of the GPL, the abolishment of copyrights generally, etc. is that they tend not to eat their own dog food. Typically their argument isn't founded upon the underlying ideology of free software. They just want other people's intellectual property for free while still being compensated for their own time and labor. Would I like to be able to live as those for whom money is no object? Absolutely. But what would happen if everyone were given the equal right live that way, to take what they want and offer little to nothing in return?

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    8. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would love to have most software open. And a world where we don't work for money.

      But that isn't communism, communism is a small group of people who dictate (mostly with violence) how others should think and do. That's no freedom (That's just an some kind of evil).

      Capitalism on the other hand is a group of people who have all the money, that dictate what freedom the normal people have. That's no freedom either (That's the other extreme of evil).

      I like the idea of KDE, but it is missing the final touch, to make it look really beautiful. Just like OSX. But in osx you are so damn restricted (only shitty apple hardware, it looks nice but the quality is shit). I like the more freedom of windows 7 (putting it on every hardware you like), but it is such a chaotic piece of shit (3 ways for control panel, none of them is finished, in windows 8 they reinvented it again) Just like most stuff by microsoft it doesn't look like it belongs together. Microsoft further has the problem of abandon it everything they design, first they force something on to you, and after a while abandon it again. They design a lot of nice libraries, but they abandon everything again for something new, without fixing the bugs. (gdi, gdi+, MDA, direct2D/directWrite, directshow, etc...)

    9. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Or lets make it more simple. If I were both developer and publisher of retail software, what would be my source of income?

      If your software is useful, people will pay you to make it. I strongly respect your desire to get paid for your time and labor. That's why I suggest you actually charge for those quantities instead of copies of sotware that are in infinite supply (and therefore of zero cost).

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    10. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Charge whom? If I cannot sell my software, if I cannot charge for access to the source code, to whom do I apply for compensation? The government? Your suggestion would only work for one-off software wherein I am contracted to produce it. Your bullet points do not withstand scrutiny. Surely you can neither be so naive nor obtuse. Free IP only works when there is a necessary value addition that the creator may charge for and is equitable to the development investment.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    11. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Charge whom?

      The person or group who expects to use the software you write to make money.

      If I cannot sell my software

      Who said you could not sell your software?

      Your suggestion would only work for one-off software wherein I am contracted to produce it

      And what exactly is wrong with that? Every other laborer manages to be productive and be compensated for that productivity under that paradigm.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    12. Re:GPL is too Restrictive by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      So let me get this straight. I can offer the assembled software product A for sale, while giving away the unassembled software product A to whomever wants it. Are you for real? If the person or group who expects to use the software I write has already downloaded and compiled the source-code, or downloaded what someone else has already compiled I no longer have a customer to charge. If given the choice between Product A for a price, or Product A for free which would you choose?

      So movie houses, authors, software developers, etc. are going to be contracted directly by you and me? I don't know about you but I really couldn't afford to shoulder the entire production cost for the next installment in the James Bond series. I'd also very much like to avoid taking out a second mortgage to pay my favorite author to pen a new novel for me to read.

      BTW, you never did tell me what you do to provide for yourself and family.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  20. False Dichotomy by slackergod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but the entire premise that there is one "best" open source license is completely wrong. Where did this obsession arise to see one license crowned victor over all others, in all situations?

    BSD (and MIT and variants) -- I've found they work best for providing backend and reference libraries, which by their nature are trying to provide a standard implementation of something, or at least a standard API. Open and closed sourced projects alike can use and modify it to suit their needs. This means such a library gets the widest adoption over the alternatives (all other factors being equal). This is especially great for server-side programs which want to promote multiple third-party clients - just release a BSD reference client.

    LGPL -- A step down, for when you want the adoption level of a BSD license, but your project is complex and high maintenance enough that it needs to keep all the developers focused on a single api and codebase in order to thrive. Graphics libraries like GTK, audio processing libraries like LAME, are a great example of this.

    GPL -- Finally, for the same reasons as LGPL, your want everyone contributing back to a single codebase, whether it's because you don't want to give the codebase away to closed source products that then profit from it, prevent brand confusion, or just maximize developer contributions. Mind you, closed source projects *will* choose an LGPL/BSD alternative over this or closed source, so it doesn't make much sense for libraries, etc. Primarily, this is useful for applications, which are vying for user (not developer) eyeballs.

    So given they all have different uses that fit better for different project types and target markets, who in their right minds thinks only one of these licenses is correct?

    1. Re:False Dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So given they all have different uses that fit better for different project types and target markets, who in their right minds thinks only one of these licenses is correct?

      Many, many, many Stallman diehard fans and diehard haters. Really really loud and whiny ones, too. Ones that'll make you think there's a lot more of them out there by sheer volume of their whines.

    2. Re:False Dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? I don't see them here today. There's been a good few BSD zealots though. And, for the record, my position is pretty close to the GP.

    3. Re:False Dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BSD (and MIT and variants)

      Also, small programs.

    4. Re:False Dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So given they all have different uses that fit better for different project types and target markets, who in their right minds thinks only one of these licenses is correct?

      RMS

    5. Re:False Dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same RMS who agreed that the BSD license was the best fit for the OGG Vorbis reference library?

      http://lwn.net/2001/0301/a/rms-ov-license.php3

    6. Re:False Dichotomy by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

      Great comment, however it's so far down the page now it's probably not getting much attention.

      I think one reason people think differently to you and me is that they have the attitude of "why would I possible want to help a for profit venture"? They don't realize that helping for-profit companies helps the consumers of those companies products, and their shareholders (I wouldn't mind if a person richer than myself benefited from my work either, but it certainly wouldn't be strong motivating factor). Another point is that people don't code just out of altruism, but also in order to gain recognition, and this works better if more people use your library, whether or not they choose to open-source their own code

      I made a similar (but less detailed and precise) argument here, but I made the mistake of using a personal example where I wanted to use a library in commercial software I was using, and so most of the replies were personal attacks. This could have been avoided by using a hypothetical example instead.

  21. Less complex by denbesten · · Score: 1

    BSD is about 200-250 words, depending on version, with the newer versions being shorter.

    GPL is 2000-5000 words, with the newer being substantially longer.

    Is one of them really 10 to 20 times better than the other?

    1. Re:Less complex by ssam · · Score: 1

      it takes a lot of words to keep the code free (which for some developers is a priority). GPL2 is fairly short, GPL3 works a bit harder to avoid loop holes that nobody though of in the 1980s.

    2. Re:Less complex by seebs · · Score: 1

      Except that has nothing to do with keeping the code free.

      It has to do with keeping other people's code which is derived from it free.

      If something's based on BSD or whatever, sure, people can make proprietary stuff around it -- but so what? The original code is still free. The claim that something can make that code not-free is FUD.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    3. Re:Less complex by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      That depends on your definition of free. Some consider GPL to be a very restrictive and/or unethical license.

    4. Re:Less complex by Microlith · · Score: 1

      It has to do with keeping other people's code which is derived from it free.

      It has to do with ensuring that whoever you give the software to has the same rights you have. Necessarily this includes any changes you made prior to them receiving it.

      The claim that something can make that code not-free is FUD.

      If you make a derivative work by altering the sources, then you aren't giving them what you received. You've created something different. And if you aren't giving them those sources, then yes that code is not free.

    5. Re:Less complex by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      The argument in question is that the code itself can't be made non-free. Derivitives of it can be non-free, but the code itself is forever free. The existence of non-free distributed forks doesn't do anything to the upstream. It's as free as it always was.

    6. Re:Less complex by seebs · · Score: 1

      It has to do with keeping other people's code which is derived from it free.

      It has to do with ensuring that whoever you give the software to has the same rights you have. Necessarily this includes any changes you made prior to them receiving it.

      Well, that's sort of the thing. The rights I have are that the software I started from was freely available to me. And everyone else already has those rights, no matter what I do or don't release. Before I started typing, no one had any rights to the code I was about to write. If they never get any rights to that code... They haven't lost any rights. They still have total free access to the free software.

      The claim that something can make that code not-free is FUD.

      If you make a derivative work by altering the sources, then you aren't giving them what you received. You've created something different. And if you aren't giving them those sources, then yes that code is not free.

      Emphasis mine. It is something different which is not free. The code which was free in the first place is still free, period. Nothing done with derivative works can ever change that.

      The GPL attempts to ensure not only that the code is free, but that everything derived from it is also free.

      But that's not the same thing as "ensuring that the code remains free". If I license code under the BSD license, then the code I licensed under the BSD license always remains free. Yes, people can make non-free things based on it, but those are, in your very own words, something different. Nothing about that something-different can make my code non-free.

      The claim that the BSD-licensed code somehow becomes "non-free" when something different is non-free is pure FUD. It's not true. It is related to a true claim, but it's different from that claim.

      The desire to have derivative works also remain free is a reasonable one. I can respect it. I can think of circumstances where I share it. But it's dishonest to portray it as "ensuring that the code stays free". The code stays free under the BSD license, too; it's something else that might later be non-free.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    7. Re:Less complex by ssam · · Score: 1

      True, its a matter of opinion and semantics.

      Does the US constitution make the US more or less free? It guarantee some freedoms, but it also removes your right to remove those freedoms and so could be seen as restrictive.

    8. Re:Less complex by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      GPL2 is fairly short, GPL3 works a bit harder to avoid loop holes that nobody though of in the 1980s.

      GPL3 would be shorter if it actually viewed tivoization as a loophole and tried to close it, rather than viewing it as an essential feature that must be protected for business devices and a threat to software freedom which must be prohibited in consumer devices, thus necessitating dictating two separate sets of treatments for those markets, and verbiage defining the separate markets to which those treatments apply.

    9. Re:Less complex by flimflammer · · Score: 1

      BSD definitely is closer to my ideals than the GPL is, and the smaller size of the license definitely contributes to that.

      Some of us just want to write code and share it with the world. We don't care about the huge political movement behind GPL, copyleft licenses and the like. For those of you who use and appreciate it, more power to you. However it's just not for me. I don't mind if a commercial entity or some novice developer uses my code in a closed project. I give him that right by the very nature of my license choice. If they can/want to help make my code better by contributing back, then that's great too.

      As far as users are concerned, everyone has access to my version. Someone closing off a derivative doesn't hide my version from everyone. I'm fine with that.

  22. Free Software in its working clothes by SirGarlon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually, even RMS refers to the BSD and Apache licenses as "GPL-compatible free software". So the GPL and other two popular licenses, BSD and Apache, are all free software by the Free Software Definition. The difference is that GPL is a copyleft license and the Apache and BSD licenses aren't.

    Why are the Apache and BSD licenses becoming more popular than the GPL? Because free software has grown up. Where I work, we would not dream of implementing the whole software stack from scratch. We use lots of open-source libraries. My company's legal department is allergic to the full GPL because they want to keep open the option to do exactly what the GPL is designed to forbid -- make a proprietary product using open-source code. Usually our code is custom developed for a specific client but we might want to re-use that and/or make a general purpose product some day.

    So, for us, using Apache/BSD licenses is easy. It's almost frictionless. Legal is comfortable with them, and pretty much all we have to do is include the license file and do a quick audit to make sure we've complied with it. GPL is much harder for us to work with because we have to justify to legal why we're signing away the rights before the product is even developed.

    The whole point of the Open Source Initiative, as I understand it, is to promote adoption and use of free software. It turns out that copyleft is {sometimes, often} a barrier to that in the business world. So I would say that "open source" (aka non-copyleft) has simply beaten "copyleft" in the marketplace.

    Copyleft was a brilliant idea but non-copyleft free libraries are what I use in day-to-day development work. And I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool, sandals-wearing, free-as-in-freedom, latte-sipping, corporation-hating hippie wannabe.

    --
    [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    1. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I used to use the GPL (version 2), but over time I've drifted toward using BSD style licenses more often. It is closer to the ideals I want, the BSD license is much more simple and puts fewer restrictions on me and on others who wish to use the code. The GPL has its uses, but for most projects I'd much rather use the less restrictive, simple license. These days I usually only use the GPL license on code if I'm linking to a library or module which is GPLed.

    2. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPL was pretty much specifically designed to go against every reason you use Apache/BSD. The entire point is that the user is free to reuse existing code that already exists and was written, instead of being forced to buy your slightly different version of your library that you have now closed off and made proprietary.

    3. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by SirGarlon · · Score: 1

      To be clear, I have no interest in forcing anyone to buy any proprietary anything. The way we actually make money is by developing custom code for specific customers to solve their specific problems. But really, my employer wouldn't want to sell the modified library anyway -- they'd want to sell the executable into which that library is linked. My employer has delusions that maybe some day that would be a good business decision. If the library was licensed under the full GPL, you can't do that.

      The irony of it all is that I've never in my career modified an Apache licensed library. I did patch a GPL library once and sent the patch to the maintainer, but he didn't accept it because he was working on adding that feature in a different way. So if I'd wanted to release my version (without waiting for his fixes, which never got released as far as I know), I'd have had to effectively fork the project anyway. The GPL wouldn't have prevented that.

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    4. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is where your legal people are not paying attention.

      You need to make a difference between:
      - Using GPL code from others (you cannot make your work closed source at a later stage without rewriting the dependency on the GPL code)
      -Releasing *your own* code under the GPL. This is commercially smarter than using a BSD/Mit/Apache licence because it means your *competitors* cannot use your code for a closed source product, while *you* still can, because you can relicence your own code any way you see fit.

      -Releasing your own code under BSD because you want to keep the right to make a closed source version later is just stupid, you have that right anyway.

    5. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like that, "Free Software has grown up" is corporate language for: "People are more amenable to letting businesses scab off the work of others to make a profit."

      I'm sure it's helping the rate of profit though, so it's gotta be good for capitalism.

    6. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by devent · · Score: 1

      So you say: the BSD/Apache works best for you because you can leech from it?
      So I like the LGPL/GPL licenses even more now.
      I hope your company at least donate some moneys to the projects, or contribute some enhancements back to the projects.

      --
      http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
    7. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The whole point of the Open Source Initiative, as I understand it, is to promote adoption and use of free software.

      It isn't, though. Its point is neither to promote adoption and use of Free software nor of free software. Its point is to promote the adoption of Open Source licenses, and further to make itself the gatekeeper of what is and is not Open Source. You cannot conflate GPL-compatible with Free Software, because that is not accurate. Indeed, it is one of the things for which the OSI has received the most criticism.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case the expression 'dyed-in-the-tied' is more fun that 'dyed-in-the-wool'.

    9. Re:Free Software in its working clothes by Baby+Duck · · Score: 1

      Most of human civilization is exactly scabbing off the work of others to make a profit. It's all around you. You wouldn't be transmitting your thoughts to me over the Internet without it. Knowledge is transferred between generations. Get a hold of yourself, man!

      --

      "Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins

  23. There's a name to be made. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, I think this reflects the success of GPL to a certain degree. GPL kind of put the idea of writing software for software's sake in the public mind. I think what scares people is the legalese that if you use GPL software in any manner you have to open source your code. In other words, they don't understand well enough to make an informed decision.

    But I think that it's accomplished what RMS wanted by getting programmers to recognize that they can be successful outside of a product. They're talent is what marketable, not the software. That programmers can make money supporting their product and that if many people use that product you can create a company that supports the product.

    When I started programming, lo those many years ago, programmers didn't consider writing open source software because someone would steal it. It's kind of exciting that you can write software that other people can get excited about thereby creating a reputation for themselves.

  24. Here's what would happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What exactly would be the outcome of a "GPL-only" world?

    Incredible amounts of confusion about what and what is not permitted.

    For a past example: the whole "derivative work" issue was a fiasco and frankly, I am not so sure it is completely settled.

    The GPL has become a business law assignment - let's put it this way, if I were to start a commercial enterprise that used ANY GNU licensed software, I would have to hire an IP lawyer for advice.

    This isn't really a slam of the GNU license - Stallman had very good reasons for the license considering the IP laws in the US - I'm suggesting that the other licenses are much more conducive to new startupts that may want to use open and free software.

    1. Re:Here's what would happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a past example: the whole "derivative work" issue was a fiasco and frankly, I am not so sure it is completely settled.

      The "derivative work" concept comes from copyright law, it wasn't invented by GNU.

  25. Younger? Er, what? by seebs · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am pretty sure I'm not the younger generation.

    And yes, I've pretty much abandoned the GPL, because the GPLv3 is to open source what the anti-circumvention cause in the DMCA is to copyright. RMS had a vision of a cooperative paradise. Then he realized that some people wouldn't play nice, and did what everyone else does when they realize that not everyone will voluntarily adopt the business models they want everyone to use. Tried to figure out a way to make it happen by force.

    So, yeah, I'll use the GPL where it's the established license, and some of the stuff I work on ends up being put out under LGPL. But for stuff I write because I want it to be open source? Permissive licenses. Usually the lightweight BSD (no advertising clause) or Artistic, or heck, public domain. My goal is to give stuff away, not to force other people to give stuff away.

    It's the same thing that's happened to my morality over the years; I've started focusing more on living according to my own moral beliefs, and less on trying to find ways that society can force other people to do so too.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    1. Re:Younger? Er, what? by Microlith · · Score: 1

      the GPLv3 is to open source what the anti-circumvention cause in the DMCA is to copyright.

      Irony, seeing as how the GPLv3 is a direct reaction to the anti-circumvention clause in the DMCA, as well as myriad other abusive lock down schemes.

    2. Re:Younger? Er, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then he realized that some people wouldn't play nice, and did what everyone else does when they realize that not everyone will voluntarily adopt the business models they want everyone to use. Tried to figure out a way to make it happen by force.

      The GPLv3 doesn't force anyone to use any sort of business model. All it does is prevent the code from being used in ways that go against its authors' wishes, just like any other licence. Anyone who doesn't want to comply with that is perfectly welcome to not use the code.

    3. Re:Younger? Er, what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >And yes, I've pretty much abandoned the GPL, because the GPLv3 is to open source what the anti-circumvention cause in the DMCA is to copyright. RMS had a vision of a cooperative paradise. Then he realized that some people wouldn't play nice, and did what everyone else does when they realize that not everyone will voluntarily adopt the business models they want everyone to use. Tried to figure out a way to make it happen by force.

      You make it sound so hypothetical. He SAW that people WEREN'T playing nice and so did what everyone does when they realize they've been exploited.

    4. Re:Younger? Er, what? by seebs · · Score: 1

      Well, yes.

      Gaze too long into the abyss, and the abyss also gazes into you.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    5. Re:Younger? Er, what? by seebs · · Score: 1

      Right. Just like anyone who doesn't want elaborately-DRM-protected music that installs rootkits on their computer is perfectly welcome not to listen to that music.

      Same deal.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  26. What can be done about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Has the younger generation given up on ideas like copyleft and Free Software?

    Hopefully. And no, nothing needs to be done about it. There isn't anything particularly good about the GPL. It isn't bad (usually), it just isn't that great.

    It doesn't prevent proprietary forks.

    It violates KISS, a cherished engineering principle.

    It is wrought with comlicated incompatibilities with other reasonable open source licenses and with other versions of itself. In this case, the GPL really is bad (i.e. counter-productive).

    It tries to solve a problem that doesn't really exist; many companies actively contribute to non-copyleft projects without any mandate from RMS.

    It doesn't even support the ideals of the Four Freedoms any better than other licenses. A company that owns the copyright of a GPL project can make it closed-source just as easily as if it had any other license, and a non-GPL project can be forked just as easily as a GPL project if that happens.

    The GPL often gets credit for the success of a few great open source projects, especially the Linux kernel. However, the role of the GPL in those projects' success is far from clear, and it certainly discounts those projects; the kernel really is a quality project regardless of licensing terms. It could also be said that those projects were successful despite the GPL. It would be difficult to prove either way.

    I'm glad for RMS. He has done a lot of good with GNU software, especially GCC. The GPL just really isn't one of his better accomplishments.

    1. Re:What can be done about it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't prevent proprietary forks.

      Do tell us how. Any derivative work that isn't GPL-licensed cannot be legally distributed; it would be copyright infringement.

  27. Correct by Gazzonyx · · Score: 2

    I agree.

    I have three projects on GitHub. One of them is practice code I was writing for when I interviewed with Google (don't worry, they didn't ask me a single question that was on the study sheet - but I did have fun writing a splay tree). It was just a bunch of functions with a description of "nothing to see here".

    Another project is eventually going to be a GPL project that runs a football pool. Currently it's just a parser that scrapes nfl.com and puts info into data structs. I haven't bothered putting the license file in it yet. It uses another GPL library, so it's already implied that it will be GPL code when it matures past being a bunch of functions sewn together just enough to test them. Why would I put a license on that? So I can be sure that I get changes back for incomplete interfaces? The interfaces aren't even defined yet.

    The last project, I can't even recall what it is. I'm not maintaining it and I don't care if anyone swipes the code. It's probably code that scratched an itch that I had that was unique to me.

    --

    If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    1. Re:Correct by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      It uses another GPL library, so it's already implied that it will be GPL code when it matures past being a bunch of functions sewn together just enough to test them. Why would I put a license on that?

      Well, because you are, in fact, distributing the code now via the internet to the public, and therefore, by the same reason that it is "implied that it will be GPL code", probably required to include the GPL as its license now, or be in technical violation of the GPL.

    2. Re:Correct by Gazzonyx · · Score: 1

      I'm meeting the requirements of the GPL, even though I'm only technically linking to the library in question. The code is available to anyone that I'm distributing a binary to (read: no one, they have to compile it on their own).

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

  28. ain't no such thing as IP by odigity · · Score: 2

    I haven't had an opportunity yet to publish any non-trivial open source projects, but when I do, my LICENSE.txt file will simply contain the sentence "There ain't no such thing as intellectual property." and the following link:

    https://mises.org/document/3582

    Do what you want with my code, and don't bother me about licenses. If you're going to badger me about fantasy concept X vs fantasy concept Y, at least make it fun, like who would win in a fight -- Aragorn or Han Solo?

    1. Re:ain't no such thing as IP by dingen · · Score: 1

      Han Solo obviously, there's no competition at all. Aragorn would be shot before his sword would even be near his opponent.

      --
      Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
    2. Re:ain't no such thing as IP by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      The problem being that just because you think existing copyright law is wrong doesn't make it go away.

      You claim that you wont assert your rights but without a license (which could be "Do what you want with my code,") no responsible person will be able to use it.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
  29. Doesn't protect developers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The GPL (and no open-source license that I know of) can protect developers from other people taking their work and selling it for profit. With the explosion of mobile apps, this practice is becoming widespread and when the GPL, arguably the license that puts the most responsibility on developers, can't even protect developers from what is essentially theft, why bother going with it?

    In fact, I would rather go with a simple non-commercial license than GPL/BSD/MIT at this point.

    1. Re:Doesn't protect developers by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      The GPL (and no open-source license that I know of) can protect developers from other people taking their work and selling it for profit.

      There's nothing to protect from. Someone else selling something for profit is not dangerous or destructive for you.

    2. Re:Doesn't protect developers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see you haven't take your MPAA pills today.

  30. May be there is no license on purpose. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many of those one point whatever million repos contain stuff that is hardly worth more than this post you are reading now. The intention is that people read it. Perhaps learn from it. Whatever. Should I include a GPL, MIT or any other license to this post? No, so why expect it on my github posts?

    By the way. Perhaps there is a generation of kids growing up who think that all this licensing gobbldy gook is exactly that. The license, by it's ommision, is this: "If you think you need a license to use this code, then you cannot use it."

    Sounds fair enough to me.

  31. They just want to code by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    Maybe those people just wanted to share something interesting they made and weren't much interested about the fancy fine print. "Cheers, have fun" is the only license they need.

  32. the BSD license by nimbius · · Score: 1

    is optimum for an optimum world. where it fails is in assuming the right to squander knowledge and remove ideas from the public domain, the right to close the source, is a "right." How soon the regents have forgotten their lawsuit with AT&T, and how readily they concede good faith in every major multinational afforded their hard work and the hard work of thousands of BSD developers. Oracle the BSD license erodes security and undermines open source projects by sequestering a codebase that is neither independently verifiable nor auditable on any level. if you consider programmers the means of production, the BSD license enables us to relive the era of controlled production known in the early 20th century.
    closed source is to computing as cloistered monks and the church were to the middle ages. youll have your decree read, youll not see the writing, and if you could youd not understand it anyhow.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  33. It doesn't matter!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..what Stallman et al are going for

    It doesn't mater "what they are going for."

    what MATTERS is what is WRITTEN in the Goddamn license!!!

    Jesus Fucking Christ!

    YOU people don't get that!!! And it's really aggravating!

    1. Re:It doesn't matter!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot needs a "-1, Clearly Not Sentient" moderation option.

  34. More likely by sunking2 · · Score: 1

    The vast majority know they will get bored in a few weeks and the project itself will wither on the vine so it's not really worth any amount of effort even thinking about what license to use.

  35. Bazaar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [...] reuse software in a distributed, "bazaar" manner.

    But... but... git is better!

  36. Level Palying Field by Larry_Dillon · · Score: 1

    Personally, it's more important to me that OS's are GPL b/c the OS is the playing field on which application play.

    It's too easy for an OS developer to abuse their position in regard to applications.

     

    --
    Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
  37. So only freedom is your freedom? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Go on, 'fess up. You only consider YOUR freedom to be worth anything.

    GPL doesn't give you the freedom to remove the freedom of others, and YOU count this as being all about restriction.

    Tell you what, if you want that sort of freedom, then act to abolish copyright.

    But don't complain that laws against murder, rape and slavery are not about freedom (to live, love and exist free) just because you're being resticted.

  38. No it doesn't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It guarantees no freedoms.

    A guarantee requires restrictions to enable that guarantee.

    BSD absolves all restrictions. Therefore CANNOT guarantee anything.

    1. Re:No it doesn't. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it can. The original source will always be forkable and available. Just like GPL.

  39. copyright is viral, not GPL. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And if your code had MS copyrighted code in it, isn't your code as "infected"? What about someone else's patent? So patents are viral.

    No, the problem is that you just hate the GPL.

  40. More web-based development by trev.norris · · Score: 1

    I believe another reason is because JavaScript development has increased exponentially over the years. For persons like myself, never saw the need to use GPL since you have to share your code anyways in order to use it (code is always delivered to the browser). Also when other major libraries (e.g. jQuery) have chosen MIT, then it's not helpful to choose something more restrictive.

  41. Yes, real software projects? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In January 2012, of the top 50 projects on Github, only 2 are GPL: Linux and Diaspora.

  42. Deja vu by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    Didn't this exact same information get posted a while ago, and then a few days later we got a rebuttal from a different source? The difference is in how you slice it. This article is using the number of projects. If you go by lines of code, I seem to recall it being quite different, and if you went by number of commits, it'd probably be very different as well. Trends in software licensing are not accurately represented by sound bites, and very few studies on the matter seem to be doing anything remotely comprehensive on it. The headline might as well be, "A lot of small projects have no or ambiguous licensing, and the relative growth of different licenses is too complex to trivially measure." However, that's not clickbait because its boring and more or less common sense.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  43. quality not quantity by porjo · · Score: 1

    I've created dozens of 'projects' under my account - none of which have any license. I get an idea, throw together some code to test the concept and back it up to Github. I'm the only one who cares about them, and I'd be surprised if anyone ever saw, let alone used the code. If any of my projects were to gain traction, I'd probably consider putting a license on it, but until then, who cares!? I wouldn't be surprised if a large proporation of the 1.7m projects are just like mine - tumble weed territory.

  44. Not all projects can be GPL-ed by DrGeorge995 · · Score: 1

    GPL is suitable for some projects,and it is not for others.I don't think that "finally people realized gpl is bad" like most posts here state.I believe people have also turned to alternative licences when needed.And do not forget that many repos on gh are small programs and scripts which are not licenced at all,have a licence like "do whatever you want" or the author just mentioned in a comment #licence:GPLv2 and did not paste the whole GPL text.

  45. Reading comprehension by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not trying to argue that companies don't release source code as required by the GPL. I'm arguing that in many cases companies release changes or source code even if permissively licensed (and thus not required).

    1. Re:Reading comprehension by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      . I'm arguing that in many cases companies release changes or source code even if permissively licensed

      Good point. It's orthogonal to my point, however. Because it still stands that many times companies would not release the source code if it weren't required by the GPL.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  46. Open Sores by igibo · · Score: 0

    I'm afraid I have to disagree with the OP. Most sores are very much open. In fact, mine are even weeping. While it's true that not all sores are festering and oozing, a great many are, indeed, open.

  47. Implied licenses? by Miros · · Score: 1

    I wonder if someone will get caught stealing unlicensed software hosted on places like GitHub, leading to some kind of a case in which an implied license is discussed. Furthermore, I wonder what kind of license they would decide is implied in that situation (if they decided that there were one) - BSD style, or GPL style?

    We claim no intellectual property rights over the material you provide to the Service. Your profile and materials uploaded remain yours. However, by setting your pages to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view your Content. By setting your repositories to be viewed publicly, you agree to allow others to view and fork your repositories.

    "you agree to allow others to view and fork your repositories." Sounds pretty permissive to me.

  48. John Adams said that, but a bit differently by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other sciences; the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts. I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."

  49. Feh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everything I license for public use, I license as LLGPL or AGPL3. If you want to use my code how you want, I charge $150/hr consulting fees. I do not give away my work for free.

    You will either allow others to benefit as you have yourself, or you will pay me buckets of cash.

    -- a random FSF member.

  50. WTFPL by VanessaE · · Score: 1

    All of my projects on github are either GPL, LGPL or WTFPL*, depending on the license of any code I borrowed from, unless I've forgotten one, even if it isn't stated in the code or README (because the license is always stated on forum posts where I publish the existence of the projects).

    [*]WTFPL is a license commonly used in the Minetest community, equivalent to CC0 or "public domain".

  51. GPL is a flag of convenience by markhahn · · Score: 1

    RMS and like-minded ideologs never really understood that most projects that adopted GPL (like Linux or even GCC) did so for expediency, not belief.

  52. Re:Modula 3 License by hendrikboom · · Score: 2

    One of my favourite programming language is implemented in a non-GPL-compatible way. There are are a few quibbles about SRC's rights to use it and redistribute it as if it were their own if a modified versino ever gets back to them, but basically says that you ca do anything you want with it, provided you release an modified code under the same licence.

    Now for technicalities, this is incompatible with the GPL, and it becomes difficult to write software using both Modula 3's libraries and GPL'd libraries. I'd like to distribute binary object code for those benighted platforms where ordinary users don't have development tools, but I can't.

  53. I use WTFPL by kmg90 · · Score: 1

    I prefer the original revision though, gives more freedom to the licensee.

  54. open source != machine detectable license at root by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    "Does not have a file in the project root directory that a computer program can identify as a license" is not equivalent to "is not made available under an open source license".

  55. They have to learn from experience by Ice+Station+Zebra · · Score: 1

    When they see someone take their code and make a $M off of it the lesson will we learned.

    1. Re:They have to learn from experience by AaronLS · · Score: 1

      I suppose you are implying GPL prevents this. You are naive to think that it does anything of the sort. Many of the larger GPL'd projects thrive by this very thing. Not alot of people would spend big $ for enterprise licenses from these projects, if they weren't going to turn around and make alot of money themselves. It's how the world goes round, and plenty of GPL'd projects actively and knowingly participate in it.

  56. Yeah yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We love you "open sores", especially continously tending to it...

  57. BSD license "well established" when Linux created? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

    Then he had to pick a license. The BSD license was already a well established license.

    No, it wasn't. The 4-clause BSD license (which is substantially more restrictive than the more recent versions that people usually mean when they refer to the BSD license today) was first used in 1990; it hadn't existed for two years when Linus first released Linux, and it certainly wasn't a "well established" license. The 3-clause version seems to date from 1999. The 2-clause versions are, I believe, newer yet.

    But he went with the GPL instead. Why?

    Presumably because it was the single widely-known well-established free/open license at the time.

  58. Fact check time... by idunham · · Score: 1

    Just time for fact checking...

    >Do closed source people share code with BSD people? Nope.

    Hmm. Strange, I'm guessing that means Apple doesn't release any source from what they do with BSD source, and BSDI never contributed SMP or anything like that to FreeBSD, and Juniper never contributed anything back.

    Read the links, especially the last one.

    > Do GPL people? Nope.

    For the most part, correct...although there are a few who insist on not converting permissive source code (Luis Rodriguez is the main one .

    >Are BSD users against closed code? Obviously not...

    http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#43

    Start with bad data, you'll get bad results.

  59. Did they verify that they're all really projects? by Paul+Carver · · Score: 1

    None of my stuff on Github has a license specified. But then the only stuff I have on Github is a random bunch of Arduino sketches that are of no use to anybody else. Github charges for private repositories but provides public ones for free. So it costs me nothing to be able to view my code from anywhere, even if I just get an urge to double check something from my phone or iPad when I'm out of the house.

    I wonder how many of the projects they found without an explicit license are even intended for any distribution at all. Perhaps there are others like me who use version control for code (or perhaps even non-code) that is for their own personal use but is in no way personal or sensitive.

  60. Kids don't care anymore about FOSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's about social computing, social s/w development.

    it's not about making money, it about who gets credit... much of it is what the kids learned in college--it's all about merit and credit, not cash. Did I just say celebrity (in its various forms) is rated higher than the old might 'dolla'.

    Funny thing is now how do we measure progress and value. Really....

  61. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Not Open-Source" and "Not free software by GNU standards" are not even a little the same thing. There's a reason the term "free software" was created in deliberate contrast to "open source."

    I seems a lot of programmers are like me, living in both the code-for-fun and code-for-profit worlds and not wanting to prohibit others from using their work in both.

    Copyleft is far too restrictive and harms the software ecosystem instead of strengthening it.

    1. Re:What? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, free software was the older term, and the definitions of 'open source' and 'free software' are almost entirely identical. There aren't many licenses that meet the definition of one but not the other, and they aren't very widespread. All of the licenses that showed up on the chart are both free software and open source. I'm tired of the unbacked idiocy that free software means copyleft.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  62. No Business Allowed? BS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since so much programming work is done in businesses (after 8 hours at work I'm certainly not spending another full 8 hours coding at home every single day) it make no sense to tell all of those developers "none of your work ought to be allowed to be shared with others."

    That's what copyleft does, and the reason anyone who wants to contribute their best work from the office back to the world for others to use will not use it. Due to businesses being a real thing that is not going away, copyleft code is essentially "personal projects only" and that's just not the world most programmers live in.

  63. I respect RMS by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    RMS fought for the GPL

    Not quite sure what the point was in relation to my post, but I have great respect for RMS, the GPL, and renew my membership to the FSF nearly every year (some years I have forgotten sadly).

    It's just that I personally after some thought, think BSD style licenses are free in the way I prefer for my own code. But I agree that we would not have the fantastic range of BSD (and other license) source to draw on had GPL not pushed the idea into the mainstream.

    There probably is even code for which GPL makes way more sense. I'm just not sure what that is anymore.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  64. The core question by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    As a general broad swath, BSD may be better for code dissemination, but does BSD-vs-GPL mean anything for code movement?

    That is really the key question. I would assert that at worst there is no difference, but on average it would be in favor of BSD - I think people who stay away from GPL code and get BSD code because they don't have to submit back changes, would generally not have used that GPL code to begin with and so you aren't missing anything.

    Meanwhile people that would have contributed code back from changes in GPL source would, it seems to me, be as likely to contribute back without arm-twisting for at least the reasons I've stated (keeps YOU from having to maintain a branch).

    But I have no hard evidence for this, only the observation of the proliferation of BSD code in IOS development that has a ton of people contributing back to it.

    It would be great to see some kind of rigorous study done.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  65. Practice what you preach? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    have you read the source code to your browser to be confident it is secure and not riddled with malware? how about the website you are using? have you read its source to be sure it isnt trying to exploit flaws in your system?

  66. GIT: Not just code! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alright how about we consider that maybe there's projects or files on Github that aren't software. I've recently been looking for a file system to coordinate some engineering project files across multiple users. I was going to use Subversion but was pointed to Git and it seems reasonable. If I'm hosting a project there it won't be software based because I'm not a software guy. It's a good system though for managing project files and I plan to use it. Now am I making my projects open-sourced? Hell no I'm not making my mechanical designs open-sourced or else I'd never make money off them.

  67. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First of all, GitHub's motivation is to make money from people who want their software closed, while allowing people who don't mind giving away their source code use the system for free, for free publicity. The actual license isn't really relevant to that. If you are planning to sell your software in the conventional sense, you won't want the source code hanging out there for the whole world to see, so you'll choose a paid account. Alternatively, if you choose a free account, then as a matter of practicality, everyone can get at your source code - regardless if if you mark it with a specific license or not.

    More specifically:
    1. Even if you fail to put license text in your project, by putting it on github in a free account, you are effectively making it open source.
    2. How is using BSD or MIT "not caring"? I care, and I mark all my stuff as BSD or modified LGPL. In the "legal" sense, BSD is more free. You can like whichever one you want, and so can I and everyone else on github. If people prefer BSD to GPL - so what? It's their code, and their choice how to license it (or not).

  68. As it should be by davesag · · Score: 1

    I use GitHub for all of my projects, and for interaction with my clients, and I'm sure many other freelance developers are the same. While some of the projects I work on are set as public (I'll admit I don't usually bother putting any sort of license out there for those projects â" maybe if I wrote something useful I would) most of my projects contain client confidential info and are private. I suspect this is the same for many others.

    I don't think this is some sort of slap in the face for Mr Stallman, but that, for most of us, we are just doing our jobs, and GitHub is an amazing tool enabling us to do them. Most developers don't think about Mr Stallman at all.

    --
    I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it