Slashdot Mirror
Google Gets Consumer Service Ultimatum From German Consumer Groups
An anonymous reader writes "Google received an ultimatum Thursday from German consumer organizations that want it to start answering questions from its users via email. The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has asked Google to sign an undertaking that it will provide customer service by responding individually to users questions sent by email, said Carola Elbrecht, VZBV's project manager for consumer rights in the digital world at the VZBV. Signing such a document would expose Google to fines if it breached the undertaking. On the other hand, said Elbrecht, 'If Google does not sign it, we're going to court.'"
That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable. If it pushes Google to have a bit more of a responsive front end to their customers, then... I'm ok with that. Though I'd also see Google's side of it if they insisted on a GMail/G+ account to prove they are a valid customer and not MS spam bots!
Waiting for an amusing sig.
Every time I hear about Germany on this website its about them wanting to force a company into doing what they want. If they don't BAM lawsuit.
If this is over paid service, I can see it to some extent, but even then, if you think Google isn&t responsive enough, you can always go elsewhere. There are a lot of places offering outsourced mail, calendar, etc.
If it is over the free service - I think you get what you pay for. In Google's case, I think you get a lot more than you pay for. The least you could do is not complain about it.
Still, if I were Google, I would sign the thing and start offering the requested service - and start charging all German users more to cover the costs of the service. It wouldn't be long until German customers started signing up as non-Germans just to save on fees.
Quite right - I'm very reluctant to make more use of Google's services than I do because I know that it is practically impossible to get a response from the company if anything goes wrong. They may assume that their market share is big enough without being seen as a responsive company, but I think that in the long run they are wrong to behave this way.
Simple solution for Google, claim it as a business loss or start charging for it.
Want a personal reply? Open a Google wallet, €1.75 per email and you get your personal response. .de domain to somewhere else. Then the only page you publish is a redirect header. Easy to support with 100% accuracy any time in an automated email reply.
Can't charge for it? Any costs associated with complying, go ahead and bill it against the corporation formed in Germany. Once it starts having net losses then close it down and forward the
Google's service is free.
They're demanding a level of service for something they're getting for free? Really?
FAQs and documentation and community groups aren't "customer services". A good service provider also needs to offer direct personal attention when it's requested.
Somehow Google has gotten away with having a bazillion users and making megazillions of dollars off them as advertising targets, and yet effectively provides them with no customer services when they need it. This really flouts the strong laws for the protection of consumers in the EU.
I know that Slashdotters will inevitably trot out that "users are the product and not customers of Google", but the EU laws are for the protection of consumers , not just direct customers. Google's users certainly consume Google's services which undoubtedly are a Google product.
So, it's time for Google to pay a bit more attention and look after its users in the statutory manner if they wish to continue making huge profits in Europe too.
Consumers are protected in the EU by really strong consumer laws. It makes no difference whether a service is free or costs a lot, the company that provides it still has to comply with its statutory duties in respect of consumers of its service.
users aren't the customers, the advertisers are.. and there's a lot fewer of those then there are users... even paying users aren't customers, they're still users -- still the product, because their shit is still being analyzed for content to enhance google's ad delivery.
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly. And why not? Why would it be so strange to be able to call Google up with a question or send them an e-mail and get a response?
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
When I emailed Google with a complaint I got a detailed reply. No complaints on that score from me. Of course I had to email via the fan club page, using their "tell us how Google has enriched your life" form - anything that removes that little bit of tomfoolery will get my vote.
Google is violating the German Teleservices Act. Giving them a chance to comply is no harassment, no entitlement or other nonsense. It's fair. And yes suing them for breaking a law is normal. Just like in any other country.
No, it's no conspiracy. They are not the first or only company that got trouble for not complying with that law.
No it doesn't matter if the service is free or paid-for. Totally irrelevant.
Direct contact methods must be provided and you may not charge for it. That's the german law. If you want to do internet business in Germany, that's what you have to abide to, or get sued.
It's that simple.
UK law also has a similar provision in the UK's E-Commerce Regulations (scroll down to Minimum information to be provided). Google does not comply, I talked to a Google employee who told me, something like, that it was not convenient/efficient and that I should use a web form.
I don't like putting questions via web form since I don't get to keep a copy as I do when I send email.
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly.
But does the law require the use of any specific technological method? (It would seem pretty dumb if that was the case, as technologies do change.) Would a variation on an online forum where users can elect to not have their questions be public and where there is someone (or several people) dedicated to answering the questions be an acceptable solution? After all, for virtually anything where you are dealing with Google at all, you'd be online and so able to use a web forum.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
So, they have sent Google an ultimatum have they?
Good luck getting an answer!
Assuming Google goes ahead and complies, how long will it be before an email inquiry comes in like, "How much of my personal information do you sell directly to third-party data warehouses like Datalogix and Acxiom, and how do I opt out?"
Direct-sponsored targeted ads on Google sites using visitor data are only one piece of their revenue stream. Big Data loves Google, and vice-versa.
Disclaimer: I stopped using every and all Google services four years ago. Same for Yahoo, ditto Myspace, Facebook, iAnything and Linked-In. Dumped my Android phone contract too. It's amazing how little I needed them, and astonishing how much privacy people will give up for bells and whistles.
For quite a long time, Google Groups would let you add people to a group, then set the group to private, making it impossible to view the group or file a complaint, but Google ignored email complaints, claiming they had a web form. They still have absolutely no mechanism for reporting spam sent by their customers who aren't using a gmail address to send the spam. And they just don't care.
They have either given up entirely on "don't be evil", or not thought through the implications of being extremely large and very careless.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Sue them for breaking german law
This begs a question ...
Can local laws dictate what Internet must do ?
What if country X has a law which states that *All information passing through our country must carry the slogal "THE QUEEN OF COUNTRY Y IS A BITCH"*, then what?
Should all the emails, PDF and whatnots that somehow pass through that country X have to carry that silly and provocative slogan??
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
To the consumers you provide a service for and are also the product you base your business on.
Accountability seems to be bad to many people. Why is that?
Does it has to be typed by a human? If so what's preventing me from launching a DDOS attack against any company by generating tens of thousands of emails to customer support and asking for a response? If it doesn't have to be typed by a human, what's preventing Google from just sending a customized automated response, using something like Siri?
I think this is just a case of laws being out-paced by technology.
You have to agree to it when you sign up... If you don't agree you must not use the service. If you have reason to believe google is not upholding the terms stated then I'm sure they can reimburse you.
Fine, then why should I not just go pirate the latest [insert name of big US recording star here] if I am only violating US law and I am not a US citizen ?
We happen to live in a global world, Globalization is a fact that business will have to deal with. This includes American businesses aswell as Chinese, German and everyone else.
Agreed, court orders, mandates etc. will be difficult to enforce across national borders. that doesn't mean that a company doing business in a country wont comply with local laws there just the same. No one needs the aggravation of fighting legal battles, getting a bad reputation etc. Sometimes it's a lot easier to comply than to complain.
--- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
Lest you forget Google is incorporated in almost every European country you can name.
Google Germany GmbH
ABC-Str. 19
20354 Hamburg
Deutschland
Telefon: +49 40-80-81-79-000
Fax: +49 40-4921-9194
Google München
Google Germany GmbH
Dienerstraße 12
80331 München
Deutschland
But who is the customer here? I suspect it's not the people using all the free services, but rather the people paying money to Google to advertise on those services.
Like broadcast radio - the customers aren't the people listening, it's the advertisers. (We can put the radio in a car if that helps anyone.)
EU consumer laws aren't just to protect direct customers, they're to protect consumers generally. And users of Google services most certainly consume them.
Whether services are free or cost a penny or a million is completely irrelevant to the consumer laws. A company that provides services in Europe has a minimum statutory duty of customer care towards those who consume them.
In USA, consumers seem to be totally happy to be treated however the company wishes (including poorly), and there don't appear to be strong consumer laws to protect them. Here on the other side of the pond, we find that quite lacking in social responsibility.
I don't live in Germany but if it is at all like the US you won't get anything except a form email if you email your representative or Senator.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Doesn't the USA have any laws about foreign companies doing business there? And so it should! Every country makes sure that everyone doing business in their country does it according the same ground rules. This is to protect their customers so that a minimum set of guarantees and services can be counted on and also to avoid unfair competition from abroad that would otherwise have an unfair advantage.
And don't give me the 'but it's free' crap. Google is doing business here. Want proof? Look at their financial results.
Its possible that competitors will create tens of thousands of queries just to ensure that Google cannot meat the deadlines. A bit like when Microsoft was the top submitter of takedown notices to google but didn't remove the same content from bing.
Mommmyyy. I'm offering FREE services in Germany (and getting filthily rich in the process) and now I have to answer emails!!!!
Please dady, I'm from the USA! I should'nt have to bother with all this!!!
Isn't there some kind of law against this???
I'd like to see a website just say 'fuckit' and pull out of a country.
The costs of doing business with your goverment is too high. We're sorry you can't use our FREE services.
Customers are people who pay money. THEY have every right to contact google personally.
Are we users customers? Hell no.
I've never paid google a penny for anything. Ever.
They take none of MY money. I am not a customer.
customer
[kuhs-tuh-mer]
noun
1.a person who purchases goods or services from another; buyer; patron.
That's not me... i am a USER
user
1 [yoo-zer]
noun
1.a person or thing that uses.
2.one who uses drugs, especially as an abuser or addict.
3.Computers. a person who uses a computer.
Yep. There i am. I am a user. i have paid no money for the service i am using. I am not also a customer of that service.
They can cut me lose, block me off, do anything they want at any time and i have NO say in it since i have never paid them money and they don't owe me jack shit.
Fuck germany... We havent said that this century yet... It's getting about time.
I wonder if their laws dictate how good the response is?
Imagine Google created a simple AI that answered all questions in email. Would they be happy with that?
Or what if they assigned 2 people to handle all email responses in the country?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
Can't speak for Germany, but in the UK when ever I've contacted my MP (Minister of Parliment) I've received a personalised response. Via email. I wouldn't expect or accpet anything less.
My MP works for me.
If yours don't work for you, fire them.
I'll send matches if you want.
I don't live in Germany
In Germany, you get a personal email from Oberhauptstabswebelausbilder Hakan Schulz, saying:
"Du kommst hier nicht rein!"
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
An obvious workaround is to launch the attack from another country, but that's the easy way out. What does the law say about the number of emails I can send per day? 10? 100? I can click Send button all day, what do you do then? What if I ask my friends to do the same?
And damages? What damages? I thought the law requires the company to answer each of my individual emails, how can I damage the company by asking it to do something the law requires them to do?
Works for RHEL, Easyjet...
"Want a personalised answer to your email; sure, that's $50, or just upgrade to our 'business' option for only $25 per user, per year".
I suppose the counter-arguement could go that google's services are not really "free" for their consumers, since they are already 'paying' by viewing ads and supplying their personal data.
"But does the law require the use of any specific technological method?" Yes. UK law, which is based on EU law, states "The email address of the service provider must be given. It is not sufficient to include a 'contact us' form without also providing an email address."
But does the law require the use of any specific technological method?
It doesn't.
It is already established that email is sufficient. It is *not* established, that web forms are sufficient. The vzbv argues that they are not. If Google disagrees, this will go to court to see who's right.
You want service for a free service? Pay for it.
I'm guessing Google could use AI to generate automated email responses to users' queries.
Korma: Good
Google is Evil, simple as that. I tried to set up an account to get paid for some of my YouTube videos... had no idea that it was even an option until I got an invite from Google. Some of my home videos had gone semi-viral. Nothing huge, nothing intended, but the internet is a weird place.
So, I enter the information needed to do so. I get told I already have an account with the same personal information. My first though is "am I the victim of identity theft?" If I am, I certainly have the right to find out. Lemme go find how I get more information. Help files are out of date. Contact info for the service is non-existent. General emails to Google go unanswered.
But hey, I should just trust Google right? They do no evil and would NEVER allow anyone else to use my identity. Now the fact of the matter is it is most likely some programming glitch on their end, but why don't I have the right to find out if someone else is using my identity with them? Google just wants to save a buck (or a billion) by not providing a human you can talk to. But from my perspective it is just Evil.
I wonder if their laws dictate how good the response is?
Imagine Google created a simple AI that answered all questions in email. Would they be happy with that?
I guess that is fine as long as the response from the AI is as legally binding as a response from a regular employee and as long as it can provide the information that German law requires upon request.
Let's see, Google has around 1.5 billion users and about 50,000 employees. Let's assume that every user sends an e-mail, on average, once per month. Most will send much less than that, of course, but some will send much more. That's 1000 e-mails per employee per day.
This is a great idea if you want Google to cease all product development.
Well, when I use Goggle Search I do not sign up, I am not presented with any ToS, I just enter my search words and off I go.
Now, there is of cause something like implied consent.
In the US, as far as I know that basically means that you agree to the ToS that Google publishes somewhere.
In Germany (and most of the EU, I guess) there are limits on what rights I can waive with such implied consent. There are even limits on what rights I may not waive explicitly.
So your argument is on shaky ground over here.
You can contact Microsoft directly. I'm not picking on them specifically, just that I have first hand experience with this. First question when you reach a live person is "What is your credit card number?" Much as that irked me at the time, if the price is reasonable, it isn't a completely outlandish way to do things.
And I keep reading these comments about providing privacy information and that reading the ads is an in kind payment for the service. I'm afraid it's a free service. Nobody makes you use the service and they certainly don't make you read the ads. There is no requirement for a minimum of click throughs every month. I use a plug-in on chrome that blocks ads from displaying. I used another, Google provided, plug-in to opt out from advertising tracking with doubleclick.net. If users (and no I'm not American, but I do recognize the difference between a user and a customer) don't trust Google and can't be bothered to look at the profile of collected info that Google provides....um, don't use the free service?
yes, the law does require this. In paragraph 5 of the Telemediengesetz (law about non-local media) the following is stated.
(1) whoever provides commercial [which courts tend to see *very* broad, one ad can suffice!] services online have to provide the following information easily and always available :
- how to contact fast, immediate and electronically, including the address for electronic mail
(plus a dozen other provisions, including name and address)
So having chat, online forms, whatever is OK, but you *need* to give an email address, and this address *has* *not* to just say "RTFM"
Germany industry hates that Google offers free services. If this stands, if Google is required to provide free support for German users of their free services, they would basically have to stop offering the service, which would be great from the point of view of German companies, and bad for German consumers, who end up being back in the arms of their overpriced monopolistic German overlords.
Not everyone uses the free (cash-wise) services, and beyond that one can pay with more than just money.
If google were totally 100% "free", I don't think they'd be a multi-billion-dollar enterprise.
Even if companies are required to provide users with access to user service there are so many companies that would be better off with no service at all as they either outsourced it to some other company with absolutely no clue what they are doing or their own support being just bad. Waiting to some silly tunes for 90 minutes is worse than nothing. So if you use Google accept that you don't get service or don't use it. What's the problem. If there's a problem with your service google for it :)
This is all well and good for google, they have the financial means to provide some support; but what about the millions of other small websites out there ran by people without the time or money to support their site or communicate with the users. If I put up a simple tool online to use for myself and it became popular, would I legally be required to communicate with the random people coming to my site in Germany? Id sooner shut some of the sites down than be legally required to provide some level of support or communications.
http://interserver.net/
If you provide a webservice - especially a commercial one - you are required to prominently display valid identity and contact information, including ways that provide quick and immediate ways to communicate with you (the laws especially mentions/requires "electronic post" ).
The background of that German law isn't really about forcing companies to provide customer service (besides making it clear who your business partner is - you have to be able to get hold of whoever is behind a website in case you pay them and they don't deliver).
You have to think about it more in terms of DMCA/cease&desist/law enforcement and it might make more sense to Americans:
"Oh, that DMCA complaint about some user using our service to provide a Super Bowl livestream? That went to our post box on the Bahamas. Three weeks later when it arrived at the main office and out internal mail processing had delivered it to our tech department, they immediately took down the stream."
If I have not somehow entered an agreement with Google, giving them the right to use my private information anyway, then yeah - they should not be forced to answer me by mail. They should be forced to compensate me in court. But if me and Google are in some relationship exchanging 21st century goods like "search" and "private data", then they should be forced to aknowledge and respond to me if there are issues with said relationship, and especially if they are not upholding their end.
IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
Yes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. German law requires you to respond to queries from consumers, thinking you do not have to is failure to abide. Citizens and commercial entities have a duty to actively look up, understand and abide by local laws [in most countries that I know of].
We have already established that German law does not require there to be a payment involved to become a consumer of said services. Google provides a [free] service, consumers therefore have rights.
I've had various level of success. If it was personal, like when my uncle was having no luck getting Social Security disability for his cancer treatment (it was bad enough he couldn't work at all, but he still had a chance of recovery), I got personalized messages back from the offices. I don't know which one pushed it through, but suddenly he got his aid the next month. Now if it's an email about some political issue, yep, form email.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.