Slashdot Mirror
Google Gets Consumer Service Ultimatum From German Consumer Groups
An anonymous reader writes "Google received an ultimatum Thursday from German consumer organizations that want it to start answering questions from its users via email. The Federation of German Consumer Organizations (VZBV) has asked Google to sign an undertaking that it will provide customer service by responding individually to users questions sent by email, said Carola Elbrecht, VZBV's project manager for consumer rights in the digital world at the VZBV. Signing such a document would expose Google to fines if it breached the undertaking. On the other hand, said Elbrecht, 'If Google does not sign it, we're going to court.'"
That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable. If it pushes Google to have a bit more of a responsive front end to their customers, then... I'm ok with that. Though I'd also see Google's side of it if they insisted on a GMail/G+ account to prove they are a valid customer and not MS spam bots!
Waiting for an amusing sig.
If this is over paid service, I can see it to some extent, but even then, if you think Google isn&t responsive enough, you can always go elsewhere. There are a lot of places offering outsourced mail, calendar, etc.
If it is over the free service - I think you get what you pay for. In Google's case, I think you get a lot more than you pay for. The least you could do is not complain about it.
Still, if I were Google, I would sign the thing and start offering the requested service - and start charging all German users more to cover the costs of the service. It wouldn't be long until German customers started signing up as non-Germans just to save on fees.
Quite right - I'm very reluctant to make more use of Google's services than I do because I know that it is practically impossible to get a response from the company if anything goes wrong. They may assume that their market share is big enough without being seen as a responsive company, but I think that in the long run they are wrong to behave this way.
Simple solution for Google, claim it as a business loss or start charging for it.
Want a personal reply? Open a Google wallet, €1.75 per email and you get your personal response. .de domain to somewhere else. Then the only page you publish is a redirect header. Easy to support with 100% accuracy any time in an automated email reply.
Can't charge for it? Any costs associated with complying, go ahead and bill it against the corporation formed in Germany. Once it starts having net losses then close it down and forward the
Google's service is free.
They're demanding a level of service for something they're getting for free? Really?
FAQs and documentation and community groups aren't "customer services". A good service provider also needs to offer direct personal attention when it's requested.
Somehow Google has gotten away with having a bazillion users and making megazillions of dollars off them as advertising targets, and yet effectively provides them with no customer services when they need it. This really flouts the strong laws for the protection of consumers in the EU.
I know that Slashdotters will inevitably trot out that "users are the product and not customers of Google", but the EU laws are for the protection of consumers , not just direct customers. Google's users certainly consume Google's services which undoubtedly are a Google product.
So, it's time for Google to pay a bit more attention and look after its users in the statutory manner if they wish to continue making huge profits in Europe too.
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly. And why not? Why would it be so strange to be able to call Google up with a question or send them an e-mail and get a response?
Pretty good is actually pretty bad.
When I emailed Google with a complaint I got a detailed reply. No complaints on that score from me. Of course I had to email via the fan club page, using their "tell us how Google has enriched your life" form - anything that removes that little bit of tomfoolery will get my vote.
Google is violating the German Teleservices Act. Giving them a chance to comply is no harassment, no entitlement or other nonsense. It's fair. And yes suing them for breaking a law is normal. Just like in any other country.
No, it's no conspiracy. They are not the first or only company that got trouble for not complying with that law.
No it doesn't matter if the service is free or paid-for. Totally irrelevant.
Direct contact methods must be provided and you may not charge for it. That's the german law. If you want to do internet business in Germany, that's what you have to abide to, or get sued.
It's that simple.
UK law also has a similar provision in the UK's E-Commerce Regulations (scroll down to Minimum information to be provided). Google does not comply, I talked to a Google employee who told me, something like, that it was not convenient/efficient and that I should use a web form.
I don't like putting questions via web form since I don't get to keep a copy as I do when I send email.
Well apparently the law in Germany says you can't provide a service without having a method for customers to contact the provider directly.
But does the law require the use of any specific technological method? (It would seem pretty dumb if that was the case, as technologies do change.) Would a variation on an online forum where users can elect to not have their questions be public and where there is someone (or several people) dedicated to answering the questions be an acceptable solution? After all, for virtually anything where you are dealing with Google at all, you'd be online and so able to use a web forum.
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
So, they have sent Google an ultimatum have they?
Good luck getting an answer!
For quite a long time, Google Groups would let you add people to a group, then set the group to private, making it impossible to view the group or file a complaint, but Google ignored email complaints, claiming they had a web form. They still have absolutely no mechanism for reporting spam sent by their customers who aren't using a gmail address to send the spam. And they just don't care.
They have either given up entirely on "don't be evil", or not thought through the implications of being extremely large and very careless.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Sue them for breaking german law
This begs a question ...
Can local laws dictate what Internet must do ?
What if country X has a law which states that *All information passing through our country must carry the slogal "THE QUEEN OF COUNTRY Y IS A BITCH"*, then what?
Should all the emails, PDF and whatnots that somehow pass through that country X have to carry that silly and provocative slogan??
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Google response: In accordance with the ToS you agreed to, that information is the property of Google and we can do whatever we damned well feel like. Go ahead, sue us. We have more lawyers than you.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
Does it has to be typed by a human? If so what's preventing me from launching a DDOS attack against any company by generating tens of thousands of emails to customer support and asking for a response? If it doesn't have to be typed by a human, what's preventing Google from just sending a customized automated response, using something like Siri?
I think this is just a case of laws being out-paced by technology.
As compared to the US gouvernment doing what companys want them to do?
You should check your social science textbooks once more whose job it is to make laws.
bickerdyke
Fine, then why should I not just go pirate the latest [insert name of big US recording star here] if I am only violating US law and I am not a US citizen ?
We happen to live in a global world, Globalization is a fact that business will have to deal with. This includes American businesses aswell as Chinese, German and everyone else.
Agreed, court orders, mandates etc. will be difficult to enforce across national borders. that doesn't mean that a company doing business in a country wont comply with local laws there just the same. No one needs the aggravation of fighting legal battles, getting a bad reputation etc. Sometimes it's a lot easier to comply than to complain.
--- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
Lest you forget Google is incorporated in almost every European country you can name.
Google Germany GmbH
ABC-Str. 19
20354 Hamburg
Deutschland
Telefon: +49 40-80-81-79-000
Fax: +49 40-4921-9194
Google München
Google Germany GmbH
Dienerstraße 12
80331 München
Deutschland
I don't live in Germany but if it is at all like the US you won't get anything except a form email if you email your representative or Senator.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Its possible that competitors will create tens of thousands of queries just to ensure that Google cannot meat the deadlines. A bit like when Microsoft was the top submitter of takedown notices to google but didn't remove the same content from bing.
I have bad news for you: There are laws in Germany that govern what data about customers a company may collect and that and how it has to answer questions of its customers about stored data.
And unlike in the US, a company can not force the customer to give up his rights by means of a TOS.
The law stipulates that certain rights can not be taken away by contract.
These laws are meant to remove some of the inequality that we have between big companies with well paid lawyers and a customer with less knowledge about the law and less time and money to spend i court to get his rights.
I wonder if their laws dictate how good the response is?
Imagine Google created a simple AI that answered all questions in email. Would they be happy with that?
Or what if they assigned 2 people to handle all email responses in the country?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
I think I like German law. And beer.
Too bad that American privacy laws, and most beers, suck.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
I have bad news for you: There are laws in Germany that govern what data about customers a company may collect and that and how it has to answer questions of its customers about stored data.
And unlike in the US, a company can not force the customer to give up his rights by means of a TOS.
The law stipulates that certain rights can not be taken away by contract.
These laws are meant to remove some of the inequality that we have between big companies with well paid lawyers and a customer with less knowledge about the law and less time and money to spend i court to get his rights.
To elaborate on top of that: in Germany as in most other countries of continental Europe (perhaps all, IANAL), state law supercedes any contractual agreements, up to the point where contractual provisions contradicting the regulations of state law (which is not "common law", BTW) are null and void, and as if never had been. That is one of the reasons that few European contracts reiterate the "obvious" parts - usually well governed by respective state regulations - for any other reason but to remind the parties of their obligations.
Bah, it is often ruled by the courts that provisions contradicting the spirit - not just the word - of law - are non-binding.
E.g. Polish regulatory office for the protection of consumers and competition hosts a several thousand item long list of "banned provisions", divided by market segments.
I don't live in Germany
In Germany, you get a personal email from Oberhauptstabswebelausbilder Hakan Schulz, saying:
"Du kommst hier nicht rein!"
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
An obvious workaround is to launch the attack from another country, but that's the easy way out. What does the law say about the number of emails I can send per day? 10? 100? I can click Send button all day, what do you do then? What if I ask my friends to do the same?
And damages? What damages? I thought the law requires the company to answer each of my individual emails, how can I damage the company by asking it to do something the law requires them to do?
Well if you can't tax them directly because they are tax dodging companies, how else are they going to make the companies play fair?
Works for RHEL, Easyjet...
"Want a personalised answer to your email; sure, that's $50, or just upgrade to our 'business' option for only $25 per user, per year".
I suppose the counter-arguement could go that google's services are not really "free" for their consumers, since they are already 'paying' by viewing ads and supplying their personal data.
"But does the law require the use of any specific technological method?" Yes. UK law, which is based on EU law, states "The email address of the service provider must be given. It is not sufficient to include a 'contact us' form without also providing an email address."
But does the law require the use of any specific technological method?
It doesn't.
It is already established that email is sufficient. It is *not* established, that web forms are sufficient. The vzbv argues that they are not. If Google disagrees, this will go to court to see who's right.
I'm guessing Google could use AI to generate automated email responses to users' queries.
Korma: Good
This law does not "protect" anyone. BTW we have strong consumer laws, but they actually protect people, not just try to annoy corporations.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
There is nothing to be accountable for. You are not forced to use their service, you do so on your own free will, knowing the repercussions.. Why is PERSONAL accountability bad to you?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Those laws are fine, and totally irrelevant to the discussion.
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Can you point to the law where it specifically states that the company has to reply individually to each email by a human?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Ahh so if I make money from x, but provide Y for free Y should be punished because I make X, great logic there buba Why does a free service have to have a minimum set of guarantees of service?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
Well, when I use Goggle Search I do not sign up, I am not presented with any ToS, I just enter my search words and off I go.
Now, there is of cause something like implied consent.
In the US, as far as I know that basically means that you agree to the ToS that Google publishes somewhere.
In Germany (and most of the EU, I guess) there are limits on what rights I can waive with such implied consent. There are even limits on what rights I may not waive explicitly.
So your argument is on shaky ground over here.
Germany industry hates that Google offers free services. If this stands, if Google is required to provide free support for German users of their free services, they would basically have to stop offering the service, which would be great from the point of view of German companies, and bad for German consumers, who end up being back in the arms of their overpriced monopolistic German overlords.
Not everyone uses the free (cash-wise) services, and beyond that one can pay with more than just money.
If google were totally 100% "free", I don't think they'd be a multi-billion-dollar enterprise.
This is all well and good for google, they have the financial means to provide some support; but what about the millions of other small websites out there ran by people without the time or money to support their site or communicate with the users. If I put up a simple tool online to use for myself and it became popular, would I legally be required to communicate with the random people coming to my site in Germany? Id sooner shut some of the sites down than be legally required to provide some level of support or communications.
http://interserver.net/
Wrong. In the US we, personally, take our business elsewhere if we, personally, don't like the service we get. We also mention the poor service to our circle of acquaintances and sometimes they agree with us and sometimes they don't. There are plenty of businesses I don't deal with because of various policies or level of service I've received. Maybe Europeans could try that out as well. The personal responsibility and choice thing.
If you provide a webservice - especially a commercial one - you are required to prominently display valid identity and contact information, including ways that provide quick and immediate ways to communicate with you (the laws especially mentions/requires "electronic post" ).
The background of that German law isn't really about forcing companies to provide customer service (besides making it clear who your business partner is - you have to be able to get hold of whoever is behind a website in case you pay them and they don't deliver).
You have to think about it more in terms of DMCA/cease&desist/law enforcement and it might make more sense to Americans:
"Oh, that DMCA complaint about some user using our service to provide a Super Bowl livestream? That went to our post box on the Bahamas. Three weeks later when it arrived at the main office and out internal mail processing had delivered it to our tech department, they immediately took down the stream."
Because it's a service. The price doesn't matter.
Price matters immensely. If I wanna do something for you for free, why do I have to adhere to a minimum level of service that is above the free service I am willing to offer. You know the service I provide, you are not paying for the service, so why do you get to dictate that it be more?
When you cant win, ad hominem.
If I have not somehow entered an agreement with Google, giving them the right to use my private information anyway, then yeah - they should not be forced to answer me by mail. They should be forced to compensate me in court. But if me and Google are in some relationship exchanging 21st century goods like "search" and "private data", then they should be forced to aknowledge and respond to me if there are issues with said relationship, and especially if they are not upholding their end.
IAIFARSIJDPOOTV - I Am In Fact A Reality Star; I Just Don't Play One On TV
Yes, ignorance of the law is no excuse. German law requires you to respond to queries from consumers, thinking you do not have to is failure to abide. Citizens and commercial entities have a duty to actively look up, understand and abide by local laws [in most countries that I know of].
We have already established that German law does not require there to be a payment involved to become a consumer of said services. Google provides a [free] service, consumers therefore have rights.
I've had various level of success. If it was personal, like when my uncle was having no luck getting Social Security disability for his cancer treatment (it was bad enough he couldn't work at all, but he still had a chance of recovery), I got personalized messages back from the offices. I don't know which one pushed it through, but suddenly he got his aid the next month. Now if it's an email about some political issue, yep, form email.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.