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Physicist Proposes New Way To Think About Intelligence

An anonymous reader writes "A single equation grounded in basic physics principles could describe intelligence and stimulate new insights in fields as diverse as finance and robotics, according to new research, reports Inside Science. Recent work in cosmology has suggested that universes that produce more entropy (or disorder) over their lifetimes tend to have more favorable properties for the existence of intelligent beings such as ourselves. A new study (pdf) in the journal Physical Review Letters led by Harvard and MIT physicist Alex Wissner-Gross suggests that this tentative connection between entropy production and intelligence may in fact go far deeper. In the new study, Dr. Wissner-Gross shows that remarkably sophisticated human-like "cognitive" behaviors such as upright walking, tool use, and even social cooperation (video) spontaneously result from a newly identified thermodynamic process that maximizes entropy production over periods of time much shorter than universe lifetimes, suggesting a potential cosmology-inspired path towards general artificial intelligence."

169 of 233 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How was the weather?

    1. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Why is this down modded?

      It is the correct response. insightful sarcasm aimed at this "scientist's" complete lack of any supporting evidence. because, of course, we have not discovered one, let alone the many, intelligence species in other universes. We do not even know if any other universes ever existed or ever will.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    2. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by Xaedalus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Respectfully asking, what's wrong with saying, "What if?" You are correct, we haven't discovered any of what you described. But what I fail to understand is why you are so quick and so adamant to cite what we don't know and imply that speculation is pointless. The impression I get from your post is that we're better off limiting ourself to what we do know--which eventually just leads us to an endless loop because we never move beyond what we don't know.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    3. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by Xaedalus · · Score: 1

      But if we don't ask "what if", how is there any advancement? Yes, we'd most likely be wrong--it's only through error do we find the truth. What I fail to understand is how science advances without speculation?

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    4. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by Jahta · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But if we don't ask "what if", how is there any advancement? Yes, we'd most likely be wrong--it's only through error do we find the truth. What I fail to understand is how science advances without speculation?

      The problem - eloquently expressed here The Trouble With Physics: The Rise of String Theory, The Fall of a Science, and What Comes Next - arises when theoretical physics comes up with hypotheses that are untested (and even potentially untestable) but people start treating them as grounded theories. This is essentially no different from the intelligent design argument; a position that relies on unprovable speculation that you just have to take on faith.

    5. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Informative

      How is this paper not a scientific approach to empirical data? We have empirical observations of a wide range of animal/human behaviors. The authors propose a toy mathematical model that reproduces key features of several interesting observed behaviors. This is perfectly good science, just like saying "hey, an F=G*m_1*m_2/r^2 force between massive objects recreates the observed motions of the heavenly bodies" --- a predictive, testable mathematical model that can be compared with measurements of the motions and behaviors of actual critters to see how well it works.

    6. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The authors propose a toy mathematical model that reproduces key features of several interesting observed behaviors.

      Yeah, like string theory.

      The problem is that the approach is essentially definitional: They created a software model that does X. X "looks like" the sort of things an animal or an "intelligence" might do, thus the investigator postulates the "physical process of trying to capture as many future histories as possible" as "intelligence."

      The problem comes from the analogy of the behavior of the software to "intelligence," and the false analogy linking it to something other beings do. It remains to be proven that this is what biological systems actually do, except that the experiment establishes no falsifiable procedure for doing that; thus, the extrapolation of the model's behavior to anything living is nothing more than science fiction or pure conjecture, based utterly on the subjective appraisal of the investigator.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    7. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      String theory stands in a "philosophical gray area" because it's (currently) too bloody complicated to calculate predictions for things we can currently measure, and the predictions string theory can make produce effects only visible at far too high energy scales to reach with current experimental technology. Also, string theories have a zillion parameters, so you might be able to match them to basically any observed process.

      The paper's mechanism doesn't have these problems: it predicts behavior accessible to laboratory measurement (how critters move and act), starting from an extremely simple model with only three tunable parameters (effective "temperatures" for the critter and the world, and the "planning ahead" time interval). Making a model that replicated observable behavior is really the best science can do --- Newtonian gravity didn't fundamentally "explain" gravity, it just posited a force with a particular mathematical form that matched observational data.

      True, this theory is in a very "immature" early phase, with gigantic gaps and uncertainties in how (and if) this links up to "microscopic scale" biological neural systems. Nonetheless, it's a starting point, and absolutely offers falsifiability: for all cases where critters don't move/act according to this model, the model is wrong (unlike, e.g., "intelligent design," where you can always say "that's how the designer made it"). Neither is the model particularly biologically implausible: state availability heuristics integrating over potential paths is the type of massively-parallel approximating calculation that brain neural networks could be good at. As "bottom-up" understanding of neural systems advances, the theory will also become falsifiable on "what biological systems actually do" grounds.

      Working "inward" from "both sides" of a problem (bottom-up microscopic dynamics and top-down macroscopic effective approximations) is an extremely common component of scientific practice.

    8. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by bdwebb · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Informed speculation is exactly what advances the scientific process. If you want to be a librarian of others' knowledge and only work within the sphere of existing information and theory then you provide nothing new to the scientific community except to further back up what we already know.

      Your opinion is the exact reason that most pre-graduate school science classes are garbage...the professors teaching the subject have no imagination and therefore cannot present topics in anything but a dry, unenthusiastic drawl that kills the motivation of potential creative thinkers to seek out new knowledge and to advance our species' understanding of the nature of things. The author is not stating that this new research is anything close to finding a 99.9% solid theory...FTA:

      Our results suggest a potentially general thermodynamic model of adaptive behavior as a nonequilibrium process in open systems.

      Their results suggest a potentially general thermodynamic model of adaptive behavior as a nonequilibrium process in open systems. In other words, more research needs to be done but their initial review and experimental process based on recent advancements in other fields points to a result which he has published a paper around. First, How is this not science? And second, How is this not exactly the type of science that moves our knowledge and understanding forward in the best way? Even if he is proven to be wrong, his results are enticing and can lead others to consider how these results can be differently applied.

    9. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      You characterize their claims in the most anodyne way possible. These quotes, also from their paper, is magical realism more appropriate in a J. G. Ballard novel:

      In this Letter, we explicitly propose a first step toward such a relationship in the form of a causal generalization of entropic forces that we show can spontaneously induce remarkably sophisticated behaviors associated with the human ‘‘cognitive niche,’’ including tool use and social cooperation, in simple physical systems.

      We modeled an animal as a disk (disk I) undergoing causal entropic forcing, a potential tool as a smaller disk (disk II) outside of a tube too narrow for disk I to enter, and an object of interest as a second smaller disk (disk III) resting inside the tube [...]. We found that disk I spontaneously collided with disk II, so as to cause disk II to then collide with disk III inside the tube, successfully releasing disk III from its initially fixed position and making its degrees of freedom accessible for direct manipulation and even a sort of ‘‘play’’ by disk I.

      Their disks were playing with each other. Because that's what they wanted to see.

      They put "cognitive niche" in scare quotes for good reason, because they know there's no empirical measure for what that is, aside from abusing non-applicable concepts from psychology and biology. Choose any diagnosis from the DSM-IV, and I can write you a computer program that meets each criteria of illness. This does not mean that I have a model of mental illness, or even that I have something that "suggests a general model." The only difference between my exercise and the investigators here is our disparate intentions, the outcomes are the same; I'm approaching the problem as Neat AI, and they are approaching it as Scruffy.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    10. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by mikael · · Score: 1

      There is some physical basis for the paper - one of the great mysteries early on in the 1600's, was why two clocks would either synchronise in phase or out of phase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odd_sympathy). This was investigated by Christiaan Huygen. Turns out each clock would exert a tiny force on its surrounds. That was enough to create a coupled driver oscillator.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    11. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by torroid · · Score: 1

      Coming up with untested but testable hypothesis is how you get them tested.

    12. Re: Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by Buddy+the+WIld+Geek · · Score: 1

      Question: would this count as another universe?: Go to the edge of the cluster allegedly started at the Big Bang; go out another distance equal to the diameter of our present universe which we suppose to be empty space; and find there the "easternmost" edge of another cluster centered on its own Big Bang. Or would another universe be something overlapping us as in Marvel/DC comics, with its own vibrational (?) character or whatever. Just asking.

    13. Re: Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Seems like, to me, if those conditions existed then that would fit some reasonable definition of "another universe".

      There are a lot of different ways to imagine different universes.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    14. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      The way to test intelligent design is to recreate it in the (computer) lab.

    15. Re:Oh, he's back from his tour of the universes? by mike.mondy · · Score: 1

      How is this paper not a scientific approach to empirical data? We have empirical observations of a wide range of animal/human behaviors. The authors propose a toy mathematical model that reproduces key features of several interesting observed behaviors. This is perfectly good science, just like saying "hey, an F=G*m_1*m_2/r^2 force between massive objects recreates the observed motions of the heavenly bodies"

      Astrology fits the definition of careful observations, using those observations to explain other observed behavior, and making predictions. Data gathering and theories aren't science by themselves.

      --- a predictive, testable mathematical model that can be compared with measurements of the motions and behaviors of actual critters to see how well it works.

      Now, with that trailer, you have a definiton of science. "Testable". But, apparently the TFA doesn't include testable hypotheses.

  2. Relevant xkcd by Karganeth · · Score: 5, Insightful
    1. Re:Relevant xkcd by fearofcarpet · · Score: 1

      From TFA:

      To the best of our knowledge, these tool use puzzle and social cooperation puzzle results represent the first successful completion of such standard animal cognition tests using only a simple physical process. The remarkable spontaneous emergence of these sophisticated behaviors from such a simple physical process suggests that causal entropic forces might be used as the basis for a general—and potentially universal—thermodynamic model for adaptive behavior.

      So, yah, XKCD nailed it... clearly trying to maximize the overall diversity of accessible future paths of their worlds.

      --
      Actually, I wrote my thesis on life experience.
    2. Re:Relevant xkcd by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 2

      Mods: feel free to stop by xkcd and let him know how insightful he is, but the link itself is entirely derivative.

      There's no need to throw a wobbly just because you didn't think of it first. Maximize your disorder, dude!

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    3. Re:Relevant xkcd by mrego · · Score: 2

      Isn't this the same as IDIC: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations" ? Increased entrophy?

    4. Re:Relevant xkcd by saveferrousoxide · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh you're a fan of webcomics? Here, have a Penny Arcade.

    5. Re:Relevant xkcd by epine · · Score: 1

      http://xkcd.com/793/

      My field is <mate selection>, my complication is <social transactions in symbolic discourse>, my simple system is <you> and the only equation I need is <you're not getting any>. Thanks for offering to prime my pump with higher mathematics. But you know, if you'd like to collaborate on a section on this intriguing technique of speaking in angle brackets to deliver a clue where no clue has gone before, perhaps we should meet for coffee—if you can refrain yourself from dismantling the social milieu long enough to drain your mug.

      Pauses to observe patiently as the word "milieu" penetrates into physicist's long-forgotten amygdala with the deep impact of an entire bottle of earthquake pills, whose fine print reads "not effective on physicists(*)" with a footnote (in even smaller print) reading "unless first assailed with angle agonists of his own devising".

    6. Re:Relevant xkcd by Muros · · Score: 1

      Awww, c'mon, the man got -1 Insightful. He deserves an award of some sort.

  3. nintendo! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interesting idea. http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/14/nes-robot/

    That guy took basically a random generator and 'picked' good results to build on. However the input is basically chaos.

    1. Re:nintendo! by mikael · · Score: 1

      But you do get self-organisation in nature: reaction-diffusion equations can create spots, stripes, tip-splitting and scroll waves patterns from initial random conditions.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  4. when I want to maximize entropy ... by fche · · Score: 2

    ... I burn stuff. Now I can feel smarter about it. Win!

    1. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by Hentes · · Score: 1

      The point of the paper is that intelligent behaviour maximizes longterm, not immediate entropy gain.

    2. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by fche · · Score: 1

      (Isn't the heat-death of the universe a process that results in maximal long-term entropy growth?)

    3. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by femtobyte · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The point in the paper that addresses the "burn shit to be smart!" concept is that the "intelligence" is operating on a simplified, macroscopic model of the world, which doesn't pay attention to the microscopic entropy of chemical bonds (increased by setting stuff on fire). In this simplified "critter-scale" world, shorter-term entropy gain *is* the driving compulsion. The toy model "crow reaching food with a stick" example wasn't driven by the crow thinking "gee, if I don't eat now, I'll be dead next year, so I'd better do something about that." Instead, the problem was "solved" by the crow maximizing entropy a few seconds ahead --- e.g. it moves to reach the stick, because there are a lot more system states available if the stick can be manipulated instead of just lying in the same place on the ground. The "intelligent behavior" only needs to maximize entropy on the time-scale associated with completing the immediate task --- a few seconds --- rather than "long term" considerations about nutritional needs.

    4. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by gtall · · Score: 1

      Speak for yourself. When I barbecue a marshmallow, I rather enjoy the immediate entropy gain.

    5. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by hrimhari · · Score: 1

      No, because it puts an end to "long term". To maximize entropy over time, one needs to keep as many options open as possible, so that one pushes the "end" to as far as possible.

      Isn't it interesting, though, that if the Universe really follows this principle, that such a system would evolve into finite lives?

      --
      http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
    6. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by skids · · Score: 1

      There's no way humankind will be getting out of this solar system if they are all fighting over the last remaining tanks of propane, and given what we know about humanity, if there is to be an intelligent agent to speed up the heat death, we are probably destined to do so.

      Hrm... maybe horders are actually hyperintelligent beings?

    7. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      This model posits that an entropy-maximizing motivation (regardless of any food-eating motivation) would allow the crow to "figure out" how to dislodge the food from its nook (without consciously setting the goal of "dislodge food from nook"). Once the food is dislodged, some other motivation (like instincts to grab yummy-smelling stuff with your beak) would be needed to model/explain what completes the getting-food-in-stomach cycle. However, in addition to a grab-food-with-beak ability/instinct (which is of no help when the food is out of reach), an entropy-maximizing ability/instinct might be evolutionarily advantageous since it turns out to be helpful for generating "problem solving" actions (in a wide variety of situations) where more direct "move towards food and cram it in your face" methods aren't particularly helpful. The crow may not need a direct "mental concept" of "get food in my stomach" at all --- instead, it has a variety of behaviors that combine to achieve the result of "food in stomach" and all other behaviors needed to survive and reproduce.

    8. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by kencurry · · Score: 1

      "maximizes possible future states of local environment" is what he seems to mean, vs. "maximize entropy" is what is being said. Speaking on behalf of the chemists in the audience, we don't like it when pop lit mangles meanings of words. This is how we wind up with "organic water." /end_rant.

      --
      sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
    9. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      The PRL journal article is not "pop lit," and precisely defines the "causal path entropy S_c" in a technically correct manner. Admittedly, loose use of the word "entropy" is causing a lot of confusion among the less-scientifically-literate folks posting to Slashdot, so your formulation of "maximizes possible future states of local environment" is indeed better for avoiding confusion in non-technical discussion. Nevertheless, "maximize entropy" (in the formal sense described in the article) is not an incorrect statement; one just needs to be aware that they're not talking about the same entropy of chemical states that a chemist would worry about.

    10. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by Spinalcold · · Score: 2

      This is an old idea that is really about emergence. Terrence Deacon pointed out a flaw in this argument and shifted the idea about emergence from the 'many states' to directional states (I forget the term he used for it). It's the limiting number of states in the system that leads to life, these constraints need energy and so the entropy around them increases. It's a fascinating idea and I hope more work is done on it, listen to it here. [youtube.com]

    11. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      That depends on the horde; are you thinking of zombies, or...?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    12. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      This is applying theories from one field to another in which they do not directly apply. Entropy, whether thermodynamically on a universal scale, or figuratively in a sense of probabilities, is not the process at work in the crow's brain. Rather than trying to understand how it works neurologically, one applies a theoretical, statistical model which ultimately explains nothing. But someone's gotta publish, right?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    13. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Nobody said anything about entropy being "the process at work in the crow's brain." What was said is that there may be processes in the crow's brain producing results close to a particular calculation of entropy for simplified model worlds. A process for estimating entropy is not the same as a process which is entropy. Brains seem to be reasonably good at estimating some "real-world" things, so an entropy-estimator is not an a priori unreasonable thing for a brain to have (especially if it confers survival benefits from problem-solving skills).

    14. Re:when I want to maximize entropy ... by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      There's little difference between a process and "processes producing results close to a process"--that's the whole point.

      Entropy is a concept we perceive and impose upon models of the universe. It's unlikely that crows also understand this process; and to claim that "the universe" or "biological processes" created such a process in the crow's brain is nearly to anthropomorphize such non-human concepts. To say that a computer program designed to solve an artificial problem modeled to human specifications is likely similar to the process in a crow's brain which solves real-world problems which are infinitely more complex seems ludicrous to me, like a solution in search of a problem.

      In the meantime, neurological researchers are trying to figure out how brains actually work...

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  5. Intelligence a man made idea. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Intelligence was invented by man, as a way to make them seem better then other animals in the world.
    Then we further classified it down so we can rank people.

    So it isn't surprising if we want to find intelligent life outside of earth, then we need to change the rules again, as well we need to change the rules of what intelligence is by the fact we have created technology that emulates or exceeds us in many areas we use to classify intelligence.

    Intelligence is a man made measurement, I expect it will always be in flux. However you shouldn't dismiss or automatically accept as good ideas just because someone number that was granted by a fluctuating scale.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by JustOK · · Score: 1

      and yet all you can do is type it.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      True,
      But some concepts are based on more solid definitions. Where we can measure it the same way every time to make the definition.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 4, Interesting

      We are better than other animals in the world. By any objective measure we can move faster, go higher, lift more weight, survive in more hostile environments, and a great deal more using our intelligence. There's no animal that can do something better than we can, with a few exceptions like tortoises with very long lifespans, but we'll get there too. Now whether or not that means we are more worthy in some objective way is a totally differerent question.

    4. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by femtobyte · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

      -- Douglas Adams

    5. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We are better than other animals in the world. By any objective measure we can move faster, go higher, lift more weight, survive in more hostile environments, and a great deal more using our intelligence. There's no animal that can do something better than we can, with a few exceptions like tortoises with very long lifespans, but we'll get there too. Now whether or not that means we are more worthy in some objective way is a totally differerent question.

      Better? Not really, more resourceful? Yes, definitely. And we have to be. Without the use of tools, we'd still be stuck in the Serengeti, treed by lions and tigers. Because, as a species, we are physically weak (probably more today then 100,000 years ago, but still weak in comparison to an orangutan as to the amount we can lift), slow (The fastest man CAN outrun a horse, but no one could outrun a cheetah on the straight away, and can only tolerate a small range of temperatures. (Without clothes, we wouldn't survive a winter outside the tropics) , and go higher? (Or deeper, for that matter) It is only because of tools. We can't fly on our own, we need to bring oxygen with us to high altitudes, we can't hold our breathes for any appreciable time and we need tools to survive depths that other mammals can handle with no problems.

      Take away our ability to make tools, and man is easy prey to the rest of the animal kingdom.

    6. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by lightknight · · Score: 1

      Thank you. ;-)

      --
      I am John Hurt.
    7. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The main and singular difference is our physical capacity for speech and the communication of abstract ideas that allows.

      A very very tiny number of humans have figured out things - and it was due to our ability for speech that they were able to communicate what they figured out to the rest of us.

    8. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by gtall · · Score: 3, Insightful

      BS. Take your basic household feline. It's tricked its owners into feeding, watering, and petting it. Hell, it has even tricked them into taking out the dooty. No living life form comes close to that kind of intelligence.

    9. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      " few exceptions like tortoises" More like 50% exceptions if you ignore bacteria which I assume make up 99% of all life.

      And I do not know about more of your other sentences. There are lots of things that animals can do that no amount of machines have since let us do. For example, their is no machine yet built, that can, with or without a human occupant, can stamper up a tree and jump for branch to branch. Hell, we can hardly make a machine that can walk, or even operate on anything other than a road or floor (with wheels, legs, tentacles, jetpacks, or any other mode of transportation).

      We have no flying devises that can span the Atlantic ocean on 5 calories of energy, nor any that can survive indefinably at teh deepest depths of the sea.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    10. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by sqrt(2) · · Score: 2

      Our achievements aren't invalidated simply because they require materials that we don't directly grow as part of our body. We are the fastest because we build jets and rockets. We are the strongest because we build bulldozers and forklifts. We are the deadliest predator because we can build rifles, fishing boats, and hydrogen bombs. Our brains, which allow us to build all of those amazing things, are part of our body as much as the cheetahs leg muscles are part of its body. We've externalized and expedited the evolutionary process. Instead of waiting millions of years to evolve adaptations we can develop and build adaptations in our own lifetimes to change the environment and ourselves to suit our needs and whims. We can change the world to the way we want NOW, instead of relying on the slow, blind, unplanned, directionless, process of evolution. The cheetah didn't want to become the fastest sprinter, its ancestors that happened to be faster than their contemporaries just survived and reproduced at a slightly higher rate, passing on the genes which made them marginally faster. Man can say to himself, I want to move faster, and build a bicycle, a car, or a rocket; and he can do it NOW, in his own lifetime.

      Even more remarkably, man can teach his fellows whatever tricks he invents. We've created, sometimes with deliberate intent other times through unguided emergent processes, complex systems for encoding symbolic representations of ideas. Man can give these thoughts physical form in various ways; carved in stone, scratched on a wax tablet, preserved in magnetic fields. Man creates vast stores of ideas external to his own mind in libraries and now electronically. The ideas live on after the individual dies and if they are particularly good or useful ideas can last thousands of years. Man doesn't have to rely on good ideas slowly working their way into genetic memory as instinct.

      For all these reasons and more we are the most remarkable, the most superlative, species on Earth.

      --
      If you build it, nerds will come. Soylentnews.org
    11. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      "So it isn't surprising if we want to find intelligent life outside of earth, then we need to change the rules again"

      I think you are underestimating the human ability to deny facts that are staring them in the face. We did not need to redefine intelligence when we learned that tool use is rather common. Or that a .5 pound bird might be better at mathematics than a college student.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    12. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      And we have yet to spread our species to any other planetary bodies, while bacteria getting to earth either from Mars or other asteroids, is a reasonable theory.

      We do not make particularly harmoniously and effective societies, and relative to our size our building endeavours are rather unimpressive. And relative to any size, our buildings are incredibly uncomfortable and inefficient.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    13. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Humanity is in a place where we're just smart enough to be able to cause things to happen, but not quite smart enough to know what the effects are.

      Is that a mark of intelligence? I would argue it is not, until humanity as a whole realizes this.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    14. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by b4upoo · · Score: 1

      Bacteria would out rank humans if we looked deeply at your posting. Obviously bacteria can travel at least as fast as humans as humans are always loaded with bacteria. Bacteria persist by stunning levels of reproduction. Bacteria can wipe out a human easily. Bacteria can thrive in areas that humans can never contact. Bacteria can alter their environment and also enjoy very few restraints upon their prosperity. Some can even reproduce in boiling water.
                                            Bacteria seem to us to operate without thought or planning or need for education. But bacteria are loaded with a life long instruction to be in action. That one simple logic that is born inside bacteria seems to trump all human intelligence. Now if we could just get bacteria to play the violin!
                                           

    15. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      You seem to mix up the concepts with whatever they describe.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    16. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2

      He wasn't. He asked the mice about it.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    17. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Doing a task more quickly does not mean an actor is more intelligent--especially a programmed machine which can do no more than its human creators programmed it to.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    18. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      I'll see your cat and raise you a wheat.

      No other life form has got some of the world highest paid scientists trying to improve its genetic structure to make it more robust and resilient to infection. It doesn't have an entire industry devoted to ensuring that its offspring are carefully tended for ensuring that only the best are allowed to reproduce and pass on the best genes for the next generation. All weaker strains are almost religiously culled. Its survival as a species is guaranteed forevermore, any predators are mercilessly slaughtered enmasse to ensure that it thrives competition-free.

      No, the domesticated cat is only in the little league compared even the most basic of common foodstuffs.

    19. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      We had a little thought experiment in our science class in school, the question was, "What species, if any, would spell the end of the world if it went extinct?"

      A lot of people though they were being smart (me included, we were only 14 at the time) by saying "Well Humans of course!, We'd be all gone!" to which the teacher asked (smart guy when I reflect back on it now) "We'd be gone, but the world would likely get on just fine without us"

      Anyways, after much discussion we concluded that as we (and many other mammals) require bacteria to digest food properly and such, if all bacteria was suddenly wiped off the face of the earth, then enough of the fauna (we excluded flora form the list of things that could go extinct) would probably go with it and the resultant crash in the ecosystem would probably kill off anything not directly reliant on bacteria.

      We might think we're so smart, but we are definitely not very important in the grand scheme of things.

    20. Re:Intelligence a man made idea. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Take your basic household feline.
      [...]
      No living life form comes close to that kind of intelligence.

      Cats aren't alive?

      Boy, are you in for a scratching!

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  6. Link to article by zrbyte · · Score: 3, Informative
    1. Re:Link to article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I had a glance at it, and to me it seems - while being an interesting angle to look at the problem - this is completely dependent on the choice of the entropic forces function(s). In AI we call that a fitness function and the problem solving ability of an AI system is almost completely dependent on us choosing "the right one". The examples you see in the video don't reveal the entropic forcing function(s) or how they came up with them.

      So i guess this is really just an interesting new angle to look at the problem. They basically showed it is possible to model such a system using a formula based on entropy. Finding the entropic forcing function(s) is then left as an exercise to the reader.

  7. Am I missing something? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This looks eerily like a physicist who has just opened a biology textbook and is now restating the idea that 'intelligence' is the product of an evolutionary selection process because it's a uniquely powerful solution to the class of problems that certain ecological niches pose and is now attempting to add equations....

    Is there something that I'm missing, aside from the 'being alive means grabbing enough energy to keep your entropy below background levels' and the 'we suspect biological intelligence of having evolved because it provides a fitness advantage in certain ecological niches' elements?

    1. Re:Am I missing something? by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is what it seems to be from a quick read. It would also explain why he would publish an AI paper in a physics journal, rather than in, you know, an AI journal: probably because he was hoping to get clueless physicists who aren't familiar with existing AI work as the reviewers.

      Which isn't to say that physicists can't make good contributions to AI; a number have. But the ones who have an impact and provide something new: 1) explain how it relates to existing approaches, and why it's superior; and 2) publish their work actually relevant journals with qualified peer-reviewers.

    2. Re:Am I missing something? by geek · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I grew up right next to the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. My dad and the vast majority of my friends moms and dads worked there for a long time as physicists. Being around these people for 35 years has taught me something. They are morons. They know physics but literally nothing else, besides of course math.

      Its one of those strange situations where they can be utterly brilliant in their singular field of study but absolutely incompetent at literally everything else. I've known guys with IQ's in the 160's that couldn't for the life of them live on their own for their inability to cook or clean or even drive a car. I know one of them that was 45 years old and had never had a drivers license. His wife drove him everywhere or he walked (occasionally the bus if the weather was poor). He didn't do this for ideological reasons like climate change blah blah, he did it because he couldn't drive. He failed the drivers test for years until he gave up trying.

      Whenever a physicist starts talking about something other than physics, I typically roll my eyes and ignore them. It's just intellectual masturbation on their part.

    3. Re:Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think the problem of uninformed physicists has been addressed by proper scientific research before:

      http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556

    4. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, what you're missing is the entire point of the paper. Here's my attempt at a quick summary:
      Suppose you are a hungry crow. You see a tasty morsel of food in a hollow log (that you can't directly reach), and a long stick on the ground. The paper poses an answer to the question: what general mechanism would let you "figure out" how to get the food?

      Many cognitive models might approach this by assuming the crow has a big table of "knowledge" that it can logically manipulate to deduce an answer: "stick can reach food from entrance to log," "I can get stick if I go over there," "I can move stick to entrance of log," => "I can reach food." This paper, however, proposes a much more general and simple model: the crow lives by the rule "I'll do whatever will maximize the number of different world states my world can be in 5 seconds from now." By this principle, the crow can reach a lot more states if it can move the stick (instead of the fewer states where the stick just sits in the same place on the ground), so it heads over towards the stick. Now it can reach a lot more states if it pokes the food out of the hole with the stick, so it does. And now, it can eat the tasty food.

      The paper shows a few different examples where the single "maximize available future states" principle allows toy models to "solve" various problems and exhibit behavior associated with "cognition." This provides a very general mechanism for cognition driving a wide variety of behaviors, that doesn't require the thinking critter to have a giant "knowledge bank" from which to calculate complicated chains of logic before acting.

    5. Re:Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This. I've been a physics student for a third of my life and I've come to the conclusion that I cannot live with other physicists for precisely this reason. Poked my nose into the maths & compsci faculty for a bit, but they were no better.
      In any case, in this concrete situation: the paper mentioned in TFA gives us not even one hint on how to construct an AI and is chock-full of absurd simplification of a complicated system.

    6. Re:Am I missing something? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      More strictly speaking, they are talking about the idea of 'will' (that is my understanding). How does the computer, or a human, decide what to do, or indeed choose to do anything? Why do humans care at all, and how can we make computers care?

      The idea is that the urge to resist entropy yields a competitive advantage and leads to intelligence. They built some software to demonstrate this, but I can't tell if the source code was released (it seems like it wasn't, but I don't have a subscription to find out).

      Their software is really impressive if it does what it says. They claim it was able to make money trading stocks without being instructed to do so. If so, its intelligence is smarter than me.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      The idea is that the urge to resist entropy yields a competitive advantage and leads to intelligence.

      Actually, the opposite: "intelligence" functions by seeking to maximize entropy. Note, however, we are talking about an approximate "macroscopic scale" entropy of large-scale objects in the system rather than the "microscopic" entropy of chemical reactions, so "intelligence" isn't about intentionally setting as many things as you can on fire ("microscopic" entropy maximization). So, the analogue statement to "all the gas molecules in a room won't pile up on one side" is "an intelligent critter won't want to get backed into a corner" --- in both cases, the "system" works to maximize "entropy," or the number of available future states (a lot less possibilities for where molecules can be if they're all confined to half the room; a lot less places where a critter can go if stuck in a corner).

    8. Re:Am I missing something? by LourensV · · Score: 5, Informative

      Suggesting that the purpose of intelligence in this man's random musings might be to increase the background levels of entropy for your own benefit.

      That's close, I think. I am not a physicist and I skimmed the equations, but here's my take on what they're proposing. Physical systems have states, which can be described by a state vector. The state of these systems evolves according to some set of rules that describes how the state vector changes over time. They've built a simulator in which the probability of a certain state transition is computed by looking at how many different paths (in state space, i.e. future histories of the system) are possible from the new state, in such a way that the system tries to maximise the number of possibilities for the future. In one example, they have a particle that moves towards the centre of a box, because from there it can move in more directions than when it's close to a wall.

      They then set up two simple models mimicking two basic intelligence tests, and find that their simulator solves them correctly. One is a cart with a pendulum suspended from it, which the system moves into an upright position because from there it's easiest (cheapest energetically, I gather) to reach any other given state. The other is an animal intelligence test, in which an animal is given some food in a space too small for it to reach, and a tool with which the food can be extracted. In their simulation, the "food" is indeed successfully moved out of the enclosed space, because it's easier to do various things with an object when it's close compared to when it's in a box. However, in neither case does the algorithm "know" the goal of the exercise. So they've shown that they've invented a search algorithm that can solve two particular problems, problems which are often considered tests of intelligence, without knowing the goal.

      Then, they use this to support the hypothesis that intelligence essentially means maximising future possibilities. Another way of saying this, I think, is that an intelligent creature will seek to maximise the amount of power it has over its environment, and they've translated that concept into the language of physics. That's an intriguing concept, relating to the concept of liberty, power struggles between people at all scale levels, scientific and technological progress, and so on. I can't imagine this idea being new though. So it all hinges on to what extent this simulation adds anything new to that discussion.

      On the face of it, not much. You might as well say that they've found two tests for which the solution happens to coincide with the state that maximises the number of possible future histories. The only surprising thing then is that their stochastically-greedy search algorithm (actually, without having looked at the details, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be yet another variation of Metropolis-Hastings with a particular objective function) finds the global solution without getting stuck in a local minimum, which could be entirely down to coincidence. It's easy to think of another problem that their algorithm won't solve, for example if the goal would be to put the "food" into the box, rather than taking it out. Their algorithm will never do that, because that would increase the future effort necessary to do something with it. Of course, you might consider that pretty intelligent, and many young humans would certainly agree, although their parents might not. It would be interesting to see how many boxed objects you need before the algorithm considers it more efficient to leave them neatly packaged rather than randomly strewn about the floor, if that happens at all.

      There's another issue in that the examples are laughably simple. While standing upright allows you to do more different things, no one spends their lives standing up, because it costs more energy to do that as a consequence of all sorts of random disturbances in the environment. The model ignores this completely. Similarly, you could

    9. Re:Am I missing something? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that's right, if you watch the video in the summary, all the examples tend towards more order. They actually have an example where two critters end up in a corner.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      My "critter not going into a corner" example was based on the first toy model in the paper, a particle that drifts towards the center of a box when "driven" by entropy maximization. In some of the more "advanced" examples, there are more complex factors coming into play that may maximize entropy by "ending up in a corner," depending on how the problem is set up. However, if you read the paper (instead of just glancing at videos), the mathematical formalism that drives the model is all about maximizing entropy.

    11. Re:Am I missing something? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Ah, you're right, good call.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:Am I missing something? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      It's just another sensational summary. Happens all the time.

      Scientist: I discovered an interesting new feature of the McFluffington-Mickel babbletransform that could have implications in finding more selective drugs to target tumor cells.
      Media: MIT SCIENTIST FINDS CURE FOR CANCER!
      Sciensist: I said nothing of the sort!

    13. Re:Am I missing something? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      physicists do this a lot. I remember many years ago a physicist delving into philosophy, and getting nearly an entire Discover mag article devoted to him. Essentially took the abstract means of talking about physical phenomna, took out the equations, and then applied it to philosphy and logic and stuff.

      hate when physicists begin delving outside their field. XKCD had it right.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    14. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's a simplified toy model that may not perfectly describe the exact actions of a crow. However, within the model assumptions (which aren't unreasonable for real-world assumptions), the actions make sense. One component of the model is the time length tau that the critter "thinks ahead" to maximize entropy. Considering flying away to find food elsewhere requires taking more distant times into consideration; within a few-second "think ahead" horizon, there's nothing else for the crow to do than deal with accessible objects in its immediate environment. Another not unreasonable model assumption is that the crow's mental "world" at the time consists of only the stick, log, food, and itself; the crow isn't deeply pondering every other object it might encounter in the universe. Between the limited "think -ahead" time and the limited "objects" in the crow's mental universe, the stick-grabbing behavior does indeed follow the entropy-maximizing model.

    15. Re:Am I missing something? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's hard for me to imagine that balancing a stick maximizes entropy. It requires constant energy input to keep it there. How does that work?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:Am I missing something? by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      I've been a physics student for a third of my life and I've come to the conclusion that I cannot live with other physicists for precisely this reason.

      If I may offer a counter-example: during my time as a grad student in Physics at an anonymous Ivy League University whose name is a color, our department intramural softball team made it to the semi-finals, and I regularly played chamber music with other accomplished musicians within the department. (and, yeah, I played a lot of pinball too)

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    17. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      The critter is assumed to have a certain capacity for expending energy to do work on their environment (parametrized by their "temperature" T_c) --- needing to expend energy is not a barrier. With the stick balanced up, you can quickly and easily swing the stick to many other combinations of position and velocity. When the stick is dangling down, it takes more time rocking back and forth to "swing it up" into many positions. If the critter was very strong (high T_c, able to exert much greater forces than gravity on the stick), then it wouldn't care so much about where the stick was (since it could swing it into any state with approximately equal ease with or against gravity). However, in the model example, the stick is somewhat "heavy" compared to the forces the cart can exert, so it has to take gravity into account and carefully coordinate its motions to gently swing the stick into place (and prefers a position where gravity will work to help, rather than hinder, its future range of possibilities for the stick).

    18. Re:Am I missing something? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      You try possibilities, sometimes by random accident, and learn it.

      It's all about scouring the gradient descent spaces for survival and reproduction. the faster, the better .

      Evolution via chemical or cosmic ray error -- geologic slowness.

      Evolution by controlled randomization (limb length and a million other things) much, much faster, but his itself had to evolve from the above.

      Evolution by sexual crossover, mildly faster still.

      Evolution, but in memespace rather than DNA-space, faster still, within a single generation.

      Biologists who focus on DNA miss half the data -- you are not one, but two evolving data streams controlling your survival: DNA and memes

      The yabbering of the OP topic is unneeded in this trivially-simple model. Don't be a DNA chauvenist.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    19. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Thanks for the additional references. Like the paper's authors, I'm a physicist, and personally ignorant of the status of cutting-edge cognitive science research, so I don't make any claims about whether this research is particularly novel or useful in the cognitive science field. But it was at least novel and interesting to me, and cool to see a "physicist's approach" with a simple implemented mathematical model generating "complex, intelligent" results.

    20. Re:Am I missing something? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      1) explain how it relates to existing approaches, and why it's superior

      This. This is why we go to school and study for 20-something years before being accepted as an expert in a field.

      If you don't know what's already out there, you'll likely be reinventing it.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    21. Re:Am I missing something? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Many cognitive models might approach this by assuming the crow has a big table of "knowledge" that it can logically manipulate to deduce an answer... This paper, however, proposes a much more general and simple model... the crow lives by the rule "I'll do whatever will maximize the number of different world states my world can be in 5 seconds from now." By this principle, the crow can reach a lot more states if it can move the stick... This provides a very general mechanism for cognition driving a wide variety of behaviors, that doesn't require the thinking critter to have a giant "knowledge bank" from which to calculate complicated chains of logic before acting.

      There may be an interesting insight in there, but it doesn't seem to me to solve the problem. It seems to me that you haven't changed the mechanism, but rather the motivation for acting-- from "hunger" to "maximizing states". Actually, I'm not even sure you've changed the motivation, but rather reframed it.

      It seems like you haven't removed the need for a "knowledge bank" or "chain of logic", unless you've described the mechanism for how "maximized future states" is converted into "crow behavior". Does the crow "know" which behavior will result in maximizing his states, or is it achieved in some other way?

    22. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      The interesting thing about changing the motive from "hunger" to "maximizing states" is that (a) the same "maximizing states" motivation works to explain a variety of behaviors, instead of needing a distinct motive for each, and (b) "maximizing states" simultaneously provides a "motive" and a theoretical mechanism for achieving that motive --- "I'm hungry" doesn't directly help with solving the food-trapped-in-hole problem, while the simple "maximize states" motive (precisely mathematically formulated) actually generated "problem-solving" behavior.

      For this to work, it is indeed still necessary for the crow to have a mechanism for estimating how its controllable bodily motions impact the range of accessible states. The crow needs to "be a physicist" --- i.e. have an internal mental model of how the world works, which it can use to estimate the state accessibility impact of actions. Smart critters (humans included) do seem to have a subconscious "physics sense" about the world (which, e.g., allows you to catch a ball tossed to you), so it's not completely bonkers to assume that critters can "do the math" enough to calculate heuristics for more or less "constrained" outcomes. To me, this at least seems less bonkers than (now mostly outdated) approaches that tend towards assuming something that looks like formal syllogistic symbolic logic generates "smart" behaviors.

    23. Re:Am I missing something? by oldhack · · Score: 1

      I suspect a spent and bored mind whenever a physicist goes into gooey subjects like spirituality, god, ying-yang, what-have-you ("intelligence" in this case). Like those Nobel laureates long past their prime.

      --
      Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    24. Re:Am I missing something? by hweimer · · Score: 1

      Many cognitive models might approach this by assuming the crow has a big table of "knowledge" that it can logically manipulate to deduce an answer: "stick can reach food from entrance to log," "I can get stick if I go over there," "I can move stick to entrance of log," => "I can reach food." This paper, however, proposes a much more general and simple model: the crow lives by the rule "I'll do whatever will maximize the number of different world states my world can be in 5 seconds from now." By this principle, the crow can reach a lot more states if it can move the stick (instead of the fewer states where the stick just sits in the same place on the ground), so it heads over towards the stick. Now it can reach a lot more states if it pokes the food out of the hole with the stick, so it does. And now, it can eat the tasty food.

      But the cow could reach even more states if it broke the stick into thousand little pieces and scattered them all over the place. No tasty food here.

      --
      OS Reviews: Free and Open Source Software
    25. Re:Am I missing something? by pierreboulez · · Score: 1

      I grew up right next to the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. My dad and the vast majority of my friends moms and dads worked there for a long time as physicists. Being around these people for 35 years has taught me something. They are morons.

      Interesting and probably true but nothing more than an ad hominem attack with regard to this study.

    26. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      And if the crow instinctually understood undergraduate level stat mech, it would know setting the stick on fire would provide even more state possibilities. The point is that, in a simple "toy model" of the world including a small number of objects that don't come into pieces, accessible state maximization produces "useful" results. Presumably, whatever mental model the crow has to understand/approximate/predict how the universe works is rather simplified compared to an overly-accurate model that calculates entropy down to nuclear excited states. Note, we actually do observe critters exhibiting not only "tool-using" behavior, but also "tool-making" behavior where they break off bits and pieces from one object to create more useful manipulators --- behavior which you probably could model with basically the same formalism.

    27. Re:Am I missing something? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      To me, this at least seems less bonkers than (now mostly outdated) approaches that tend towards assuming something that looks like formal syllogistic symbolic logic generates "smart" behaviors.

      I guess so, but I don't know if the "experts" in psychology or AI think that intelligence is generated through logical syllogisms. So I don't necessarily doubt that crows are using some kind of heuristics when they decide to use a stick, but I have some doubts about whether the heuristics are so simple that they can be modelled accurately without considering the biology and psychology of the crow itself.

    28. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the "logical syllogisms" approach is somewhat of a straw-man extreme of outdated thinking (from much earlier only-humans-can-really-think, and-they-think-like-they-think-they-do era). However, it's still a wide-open question how much "cognition"/problem-solving requires a few general principles, or a big complicated bundle of "specialized" skills. This paper supports a rather "minimalist" approach, where several apparently "advanced" problem-solving skills "pop out" of a rather generic, physics-motivated heuristic model. More accurate "crow models" will very likely need more specific crow "biology and psychology" --- but how much? Also, can you produce "lifelike artificial intelligence" without a lot of fine-tuned "species-specific" baggage, or do you need a big chunk of specialized instincts in addition to first-principles general mechanisms for "intelligent" behavior?

    29. Re:Am I missing something? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      makes sense.

      This is something to think about. I wonder if intelligence really works this way.

      I guess the question is whether intelligence comes from maximizing entropy, or intelligence causes creatures to try to maximize entropy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    30. Re:Am I missing something? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      This is actually a really interesting comment, but of course, anyone who criticizes atheism or mentions God with a capital G gets modded down. Oh well, at least the moderation system is maximizing future possibilities...oh, wait...

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    31. Re:Am I missing something? by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      Many cognitive models might approach this by assuming the crow has a big table of "knowledge" that it can logically manipulate to deduce an answer: "stick can reach food from entrance to log," "I can get stick if I go over there," "I can move stick to entrance of log," => "I can reach food." This paper, however, proposes a much more general and simple model: the crow lives by the rule "I'll do whatever will maximize the number of different world states my world can be in 5 seconds from now."

      I think the state-maximizing rule is far more complex than the food-oriented ones. How would the crow know which outcome would maximize its world states? How would the crow keep track of world states? How would the crow imagine future world states? How would the crow have a concept of world states?! What even is a world state? This is all preposterous. It's just artificial models applied to systems no one truly understands. This is a poor alternative to investigating how the crow's brain actually works.

      The crow's instinct is to find and eat food. A more interesting and useful question would be of how the crow has instincts in the first place.

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    32. Re:Am I missing something? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Well most modern models of intelligence/consciousness (at least that I've read about or heard about) imply that it's some kind of emergent property of complex heuristics. Now that's a vague explanation, but there seems to be a consensus that it's something like that.

      I don't understand the "generic physics-motivated" model, but I'd imagine it would run into a lot of shortcomings. Crows maximize the number of future states available? It seems like that might be roughly true in some circumstances without being at all causal. Do the number of future states increase when an organism survives for longer? Then is it "maximizing states" or "maximizing survival"?

      And how do you account for mistakes and misunderstandings? How do you account for instances of poor decision-making? Behavior is pretty complex.

    33. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I'm not an author of this paper, and I have no particularly special insight into how right the theory is. However, I think you're trying to stretch the model to apply to the wrong class of issues. The entropy-maximization isn't about complex, "long-term" planning for "future states" on a how-to-survive-to-next-year, or even how-to-survive-to-next-hour, time scale. It's a model for generating short-term actions (e.g. "move towards the stick and grab it; push the stick towards the trapped food
      ) that can often produce useful results, not explicitly calculating long-term survival plans. However, chances of long-term survival can be greatly enhanced by particular short-term decision strategies, that don't (and can't, since predicting the distant future is basically impossible due to lack of relevant information) require analyzing long-term outcomes.

      Mistakes and misunderstandings are "accounted for" by assuming they just happen all the time, but fortunately usually aren't fatal --- the simple "maximize available states" model doesn't break catastrophically if the crow's calculation is a bit off from from what a physicist with a computer would calculate. Equivalently: I bet, in the toy model, that you could introduce significant numerical differences between the physics "estimated" by the model crow and the "real" world physics, and still get similar results.

    34. Re:Am I missing something? by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      Sounds like our R&D department. "The dumbest smart people" I call them.

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
    35. Re:Am I missing something? by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Yes, an "estimation of future world state accessibility" model is a heck of a lot more complicated than a head-towards-yummy-smells model. Observations show, however, that crows appear pretty smart --- they're able to solve a lot of problems that, e.g., a flatworm with a simple "follow-the-chemical-gradient-towards-yumminess" model, could not. When a crow is observed to move away from a yummy (inaccessible) morsel in order to come back with a twig to fish it out, obviously something much more complex than stuff-yummies-in-beak instinct is going on.

      Indeed, this is a "poor alternative to investigating how the crow's brain actually works" --- but with our current level of understanding/technology, we're nowhere near having good "bottom-up" models from neuron interactions to "intelligent" behavior. Like many problems in science, it's useful to "work from both ends and meet in the middle": some people work on better understanding low-level neuron functions; others develop high-level effective theories that, not relying on specific knowledge of how the underlying parts work, still reproduce observed behaviors. Once a scientific field "matures," we can link up the micro- and macro-scale views; cognitive science, however, is still in a rather "primitive" phase, so it's handy to toss out even rudimentary theories for how things like "problem solving behavior" might be generated.

    36. Re:Am I missing something? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      The entropy-maximization isn't about complex, "long-term" planning for "future states" on a how-to-survive-to-next-year, or even how-to-survive-to-next-hour, time scale.

      So then am I wrong if that makes me suspicious that it won't model behavior very well in general? A model that doesn't account for decisions that sacrifice possible "states" in the next 30 seconds for some benefit 3 minutes from now? I wouldn't deny that many kinds of behavior are very short-sighted, but the more we talk about it, the more deficient it seems.

      It's a model for generating short-term actions (e.g. "move towards the stick and grab it; push the stick towards the trapped food)

      Now if the crow moves towards the stick to "maximize states" and then grabs the sticks to "maximize states", then why aren't crows always moving towards sticks and grabbing them, even when there's no trapped food?

  8. Choice by rtb61 · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Intelligence, the ability to delve into the past and reach into the future, in order to craft the present and manipulate the probability of eventualities. The greater the ability the greater the intellect, the power of choice.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    1. Re:Choice by dargaud · · Score: 1

      I like the following definition of intelligence which is short and goes way beyond 'the ability to do maths': "the ability to reach a correct solution given incomplete information".

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    2. Re:Choice by Xest · · Score: 1

      That definition would imply computers are more intelligent than humans as various data mining algorithms have a much greater capability to predict the future from historical information and make the most logical choice based on that than a human ever could.

      So it doesn't work, there's more to it than that.

    3. Re:Choice by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      You fail to grasp the concept. There in fact is no present, it does not in reality exist. The present is simply a construct of the past and the future, that life creates. The duration of the present defines how much life can alter the future and that is governed by intellect. There is also an element of altering the past and reaching into the future on the elemental scale, distorting probabilities, again the greater the ability the greater the intellect.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  9. Maintaining disorder by Dan+East · · Score: 2

    It appears to me that the algorithm is trying to maintain entropy or disorder, or at least keep open as many pathways to various states of entropy as possible. In the physics simulations, such as balancing and using tools, this essentially means that it is simply trying to maximize potential energy (in the form of stored energy due to gravity or repulsive fields - gravity in the balancing examples, and repulsive fields in the "tools" example).

    While this can be construed as "intelligence" in these very specific cases, I don't think it is nearly as generalized or multipurpose as the author makes it out to be.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
  10. More than one by JayInPlano · · Score: 1

    I am always amused when I see these posts on intelligence as if it is an singular thing. There are many types of intelligence from scientific (i.e. medicine, mathematics) to creative (i.e. literature, music, sculpting) to social (i.e. business, politics) and athletic (i.e. sports, recreation). No one person can be good at all of these types of intelligence, but collectively we can. Or put another way. We all saw Watson win at chess and Jeopardy, I don’t think would do so well playing Texas hold’em against some tournament champions.

    1. Re:More than one by plover · · Score: 2

      I am always amused when I see these posts on $(any_topic) that reveal the inability of the poster to recognize things happen on a variety of levels.

      In this case, intelligence refers not to the subset of humans capable of posting on slashdot, or playing music. Intelligence in this context refers to the evolution of a brain capable of making decisions based on stimuli as well as experience. An earthworm would qualify as intelligent. It takes a whole lot more steps to get from amino acid soup to an earthworm's level of intelligence than it would to get from an earthworm-sized brain to a human brain.

      You're being so literal it's constraining your thinking. It's like you have your own personal grammar nazi that keeps you from seeing a bigger picture. That's especially dangerous on slashdot where the "editors" rarely choose the right words. Learn to expand and adapt.

      --
      John
    2. Re:More than one by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      It always amuses me that people who have no background on a particular subject, like these physicists, feel compelled to publish a paper on said topic.

      Then I have to laugh when lemmings herald the paper as insightful.

    3. Re:More than one by plover · · Score: 1

      I think we both agree that their sample size of one planet is not statistically significant. If he wants to be taken seriously, this guy should be funding the hell out of SETI.

      Hahahahahahaha, sorry, that last sentence was too hard to type without laughing.

      --
      John
    4. Re:More than one by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      You're not very intelligent if you can't see how someone could be intelligent in all these fields.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    5. Re:More than one by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      We all saw Watson win at chess and Jeopardy, I donâ(TM)t think would do so well playing Texas holdâ(TM)em against some tournament champions.

      Well, Watson will do better at poker after Number One explains the concept of bluffing to it/him.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  11. Spherical cows! by femtobyte · · Score: 4, Funny

    You can tell this is a physicist's paper. It lacks spherical cows, but only because the toy models were set up in 2D. So, instead, we get a crow, chimpanzee, or elephant approximated by circular disks.

  12. Wonder how correct his predictions will prove to b by Camembert · · Score: 1

    I skimmed through the article. The idea as entropy as a driving factor for intelligence is certainly novel (to my knowledge), I haven't even met it in science fiction stories ! But, while interesting in his small test set, I really wonder about the author's extrapolations. Intelligence and free will seem much more complex than a thermodynamic optimisation. Perhaps, just perhaps that his idea is part of the very first steps from matter towards life and intelligence but much more research needs to be done.

  13. Re:Too simple theory by foobsr · · Score: 1
    http://www.instructionaldesign.org/theories/intellect.html

    150 different components of intelligence

    J.P.Guilford *classic*

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  14. Intelligence is inherited by Quakeulf · · Score: 1

    Just like any other physical trait.

    1. Re:Intelligence is inherited by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Actually it's not.

  15. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Try nonexistent. The authors have ZERO background on intelligence. Basically they are proposing intelligent design....

  16. This is so sad by rpresser · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The universe developed intelligence as a way of making entropy wind down faster ... which will destroy all intelligence ... which is a tragedy because the winding down was necessary to create us ... and the universe WANTED TO SEE US SUFFER.

    1. Re:This is so sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please, do not anthropomorphise the Universe, he hates it.

    2. Re:This is so sad by gtall · · Score: 1

      That might explain why the Universe is trying to kill us. Those asteroids periodically buzzing the Earth were sent there, the Universe's aim is just a bit off. Sooner or later, it will get the target sighted in. Sometimes it is in the form of Gaea who periodically tosses an earthquake, or when she's really pissy, a super volcano...just for a little recreational resurfacing.

      The Universe hates intelligence, we're all dead.

  17. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by Camembert · · Score: 1

    I agree with your statement. However, as I wrote, it could (maybe!) be that thermodynamics work in a way that improves the conditions to go from dead matter to life and intelligence; compared to pure chaos.

  18. I'm not sleeping in.. by xtal · · Score: 2

    I'm maintaining the maximum number of possible outcomes for the day, in harmony with the laws of nature. :)

    --
    ..don't panic
  19. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by femtobyte · · Score: 1

    The paper has nothing to do with the "design" and/or evolution of intelligence. It proposes a general mechanism by which "intelligent" brains may be able to "figure out" how to perform a wide variety of tasks (by maximizing future available states based on a simplified internal world model). Plain old evolutionary selective pressures would favor critters with brains good at carrying out this type of cognition.

  20. If Human Intelligence is so valuable... by onebeaumond · · Score: 1

    Why don't other animals have it? The answer is it just can't compete, in an evolutionary sense, with other phenotypes (like instinct). Or, put more simply: "He who hesitates is lunch". Evolution can certainly be modeled as a system that maintains entropy, but I just don't see this abstraction being all that useful in explaining intelligence.

  21. Silly paper that completely misses the point by mTor · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a review of this paper by a researcher who actually works in the field of AI and cognitive psychology:

    Interdisciplinitis: Do entropic forces cause adaptive behavior?

    Few choice quotes:

    Physicists are notorious for infecting other disciplines. Sometimes this can be extremely rewarding, but most of the time it is silly. I've already featured an example where one of the founders of algorithmic information theory completely missed the point of Darwinism; researchers working in statistical mechanics and information theory seem particularly susceptible to interdisciplinitis. The disease is not new, it formed an abscess shortly after Shannon (1948) founded information theory. The clarity of Shannon's work allowed a metaphorical connections between entropy and pretty much anything. Researchers were quick to swell around the idea, publishing countless papers on âoeInformation theory of Xâ where X is your favorite field deemed in need of a more thorough mathematical grounding.

    and after he explains what the paper's about and how utterly empty it is, he offers some advice to authors:

    By publishing in a journal specific to the field you are trying to make an impact on, you get feedback on if you are addressing the right questions for your target field instead of simply if others' in your field (i.e. other physicists) think you are addressing the right questions. If your results get accepted then you also have more impact since they appear in a journal that your target audience reads, instead of one your field focuses on. Lastly, it is a show of respect for the existing work done in your target field. Since the goal is to set up a fruitful collaboration between disciplines, it is important to avoid E.O. Wilson's mistake of treating researchers in other fields as expendable or irrelevant.

    1. Re:Silly paper that completely misses the point by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2

      and after he explains what the paper's about and how utterly empty it is, he offers some advice to authors:

      By publishing in a journal specific to the field you are trying to make an impact on, you get feedback on if you are addressing the right questions for your target field instead of simply if others' in your field (i.e. other physicists) think you are addressing the right questions.

      The authors were just trying to maximize the number of possible future states for their idea.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Silly paper that completely misses the point by islisis · · Score: 1

      'Anonymous' submitter undoubtedly the author himself currently doing the publicity rounds.

    3. Re:Silly paper that completely misses the point by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      But by publishing it in the wrong journal, they subjected it to ridicule and dismissal, reducing the number of possible future states.

      What's in a state, anyway? that which we call a state from any other perspective would seem as ludicrous...

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  22. Re:Relevant SMBC by mTor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And here's a relevant SMBC:

    http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2556

  23. Nature abhors a vacuum. by OldCodger · · Score: 1

    He's just repeating the old adage - best demonstrated by Gary Larson - that nature abhors a vacuum. :)

  24. I have an untidy office by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

    Lots of entropy here, more than most! Does that mean that I am super intelligent ?

  25. Sante Fe Institute by RockGrumbler · · Score: 1

    I don't have the background to judge the novelty of this approach or not. But the quote from the Sante Fe institute fellow would imply that the chaos/complexity folks find it interesting.

  26. Bill Burr by justthinkit · · Score: 2
    Bill Burr, on one of his MMPC, talked about trying to learn Spanish. At first he was cursing that it was his third try and what was wrong with him. Then later he said that it just came down to the fact that he didn't really need to learn it. Europeans need to know multiple languages. Americans don't. Doesn't mean we are stupid, incompetent, etc. Affects whether we learn language number two, though.
    .

    We live in a society defined by division of labor. The physicist figured that out, as have many video game addicts.

    When P-man walks he gets to think about his theories more, he gets necessary exercise, and he gets his chore done in about the same amount of time. And he simply isn't interested in most of the stuff that we rush around doing. He doesn't particularly want or need a cell phone, and for sure not a tablet. TV is low bandwidth, high noise -- easily filtered out with the convenient OFF button. Shopping is a once-a-week thing that someone else does...no need to duplicate effort. Same with laundry, with those two large machines doing most of the work.

    It is called the simple life. And it kind of rocks.

    ...says the part-time physics guy.

    --
    I come here for the love
    1. Re:Bill Burr by geek · · Score: 1

      And in the process the "P-man" becomes a social pariah incapable of communicating with people. Loses out on the "simple" things in life, like backyard BBQ's, ball games, good conversations with friends.

      Sorry but the isolated brilliant guy isn't a real person. That's Dr. House on TV and he wasn't even liked in fiction. The real thing is even worse. I'd highly recommend you change the paradigm and enjoy life's simple pleasures. Life is short after-all and you really only get the one crack at it.

    2. Re:Bill Burr by justthinkit · · Score: 1
      Enjoying walks and simplifying one's life have nothing to do with becoming a social pariah. Next you will be ordering everyone around, telling them to socialize, drink beer or whatever it is you think is "healthy".
      .

      By the way, P-man is not myself. I enjoy driving and have done so for over 40 years. In my household I am the one who shops, does laundry and cleans. My similarity to P-man is that I enjoy the company of my own thoughts -- and luckily this is not yet a crime, geek.

      As to the "isolated brilliant guy" not being "a real person"? Well, it sounds like you are the one living away from humanity. Brilliance can't help living the way it does. There are plenty of them around and I think they are much happier than you.

      --
      I come here for the love
  27. May apply to "life" rather than "intelligence" by littlewink · · Score: 1

    In any case both require clear definition, but it would appear that this paper applies to "life" rather than the more restrictive "intelligence".

    IMO "intelligence" is primarily the ability to refer to things outside the here and now, the property that linguists call displacement. See Derek Bickerton's "Adam's Tongue" for details.

  28. My somewhat pedantic but sincere question by srussia · · Score: 1

    Actually, the opposite: "intelligence" functions by seeking to maximize entropy.

    Don't you mean that intelligence "functions by seeking to maximize the entropic gradient"?

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:My somewhat pedantic but sincere question by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      A key component to the paper's model is that entropy maximization is not just through "local" maximization of the gradient, but total entropy maximization over an interval:

      Inspired by recent developments [1–6] to naturally
      generalize such biases so that they uniformly maximize
      entropy production between the present and a future time
      horizon, rather than just greedily maximizing instanta-
      neous entropy production, we can also contemplate gener-
      alized entropic forces over paths through configuration
      space rather than just over the configuration space itself.

      So, indeed, entropy maximization --- not just instantaneous entropy gradient maximization, which might "miss" solutions requiring passing through low-entropy-gradient regions to reach an even higher entropy final state --- is important. Of course, the result of maximizing entropy over a time interval is the maximization of the average gradient over the interval.

  29. maximizes number of future states by johnrpenner · · Score: 1

    the article is self contradictory — it says "It actually self-determines what its own objective is," said Wissner-Gross. "This [artificial intelligence] does not require the explicit specification of a goal".

    this is not true, because it then goes on to say, "trying to capture as many future histories as possible".

    so there IS a goal — it maximizes the number of future states — exactly the same way a negaMax search can maximize the mobility paramater in a chess engine search.

    in other words, this is a lot of hype — defining intelligence as maximization of finding states of less entropy (i.e. maximal future states), and running a classic negaSearch on that basis is what is going on here.

    its a novel way to go about things, but redefining the terms doesnt actually make anything new in the sensation way this article claims.

    1. Re:maximizes number of future states by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Yes, the model "intelligence" does have the one goal of "future history maximization." The interesting thing is that this one particular goal can produce a variety of behaviors --- instead of requiring each behavior to be motivated by its own specific and non-generalizable goal. Instead of needing a brain with specific goals for "walk upright," "get tool to augment manipulative abilities," "cooperate with other to solve problem," plus a heap of other mechanisms to achieve said goals, the simple entropy-maximization principle generates a wide variety of apparently "complex" and "intelligent" behaviors (both selecting the "goal" and implementing actions to achieve the goal).

  30. Procrastination by wytcld · · Score: 2

    The premise of the claim is that procrastination is the ultimate goal of intelligence, with procrastination defined as keeping open the widest range of possible options by avoiding all actions that would decisively limit that range.

    This would seem, even on the surface, to ignore the many situations where intelligent life must take the narrow path, sacrificing procrastination to the pursuit of a single goal. Once through a narrow path we may find a wide vista of prospects again before us. But without taking such narrow paths at significant times, by always hesitating at the crossroads for as long as possible, we may find ourselves with Robert Johnson, sinking down.

    Also, the claim that the natural goal of choice is to maximize future choice is entirely circular. Like saying the goal of walking is to maximize future walking, the goal of eating to maximize future eating, there's something to it, but it's not quite true. Also, a great deal of research shows that people strive to avoid choice, for the most part.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    1. Re:Procrastination by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      The claim of the paper isn't that "entropy maximization" is the sole motivating factor for all behaviors. For example, after their toy model critter succeeds in knocking the "food" out of the hole using the "tool," some other guiding mechanism probably takes over to make it eat the tasty food (which decreases the accessible degrees of freedom in their simple model compared to keeping the food and tool nearby to toss about). So, indeed, there are plenty of actions that require different behavioral models to explain (e.g. instincts to stuff yummy-smelling objects into your face). However, the general "entropy maximization" model elegantly reproduces several kinds of "intelligent" cognitive behaviors without requiring immensely clunky and overly-specific mechanisms.

    2. Re:Procrastination by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      But doesn't running the simulation require defining what states are possible? Isn't that being specific, even clunky?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    3. Re:Procrastination by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Ever seen a dog catching stuff thrown by their owner, leaping and twisting through the air to perfectly intercept that tennis ball with its teeth? Critter brains seem pretty good at (approximately) integrating kinematic differential equations. Conceptualizing the accessible range of motional degrees of freedom in a physical system might be a reasonable "extension" of the "kinematic intelligence" (approximate world physics model) that animals (including humans) already exhibit. It's heuristic approximations on a subconscious level --- your dog or human friend doesn't have to "know" calculus well enough to pass an AP exam, but can sure think up approximations faster than a typical college student can solve equations on paper with all that fancy symbolic logic. Any solution that answers complex questions like "how does a critter figure out tool use" is probably going to be a bit complex and clunky (the brain is a complex, clunky tangle of neurons), but "maximize available kinematic states" is at least a simpler and more straightforward general mechanism than many cognitive models for "solving" a variety of problems.

    4. Re:Procrastination by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      I can grant that such a mechanism might, when applied to appropriately-modeled problems, give similar outcomes as a natural process. But I think it's rather silly to suggest that a crow's brain actually tries to acquire food by "maximizing future world states", because this implies that the crow's brain is capable of reason, even on a subconscious level (isn't the crow's brain entirely subconscious?).

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    5. Re:Procrastination by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      because this implies that the crow's brain is capable of reason, even on a subconscious level (isn't the crow's brain entirely subconscious?)

      You might be being a bit species chauvinistic. We (I) don't understand consciousness well enough to answer the "conscious/subconscious" question for crows, but "birdbrains" seem to be capable of quite a bit of what was once considered "exclusively human" types of cognition. Why is "reason" --- if by "reason" you mean ability to approximate solutions to mathematical systems of equations --- the sole province of human or "conscious" thought? Simulated "neural networks" demonstrate the flexibility to heuristically approximate a large variety of systems. Why, in particular, would approximating the outcomes of toy models of state availability be particularly out-of-reach?

    6. Re:Procrastination by gottabeme · · Score: 1

      No, by reason I mean reason, as in thinking logically about cause and effect.

      Species chauvinistic? Really?

      --
      "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  31. There's an interesting trend here by freality · · Score: 1

    Compare to Terrence Deacon's Incomplete Nature, which: "meticulously traces the emergence of this special causal capacity from simple thermodynamics to self-organizing dynamics to living and mental dynamics" (Amazon).

    (Deacon's book is good, though has been criticized as drawing heavily from prior work: "This work has attracted controversy, as reviewers[2] have suggested that many of the ideas in it were first published by Alicia Juarrero in Dynamics of Action (1999, MIT Press) and by Evan Thompson in Mind in Life (2007, Belknap Press and Harvard University Press) yet these works were not cited or referenced by Deacon." (Wikipedia))

    Or compare to Stuart Kauffman's Origins of Order, which Deacon cites (and it seems the two are in communication). Kauffman's notion is that there are implicit geometries to energetic forms which in the situation of excess total energy can locally channel a system towards structure and shape that bias, and perhaps belie, the notions of random variation and natural selection being the primary drivers for the creation of structures in living beings.

    Neat to see this coming to the east coast/MIT.

  32. Dense and jargony by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1

    First of all, the paper is steeped in jargon. Phrases such as (2nd para) "characterized by the formalism of" instead of "described by" obfuscate the meaning and confuse the reader.

    Count the number of uses of the verb "to be" (is, are, "to be", were, &c). It's everywhere! Nothing runs or changes, everything "is running" or "is changing". Passive voice removes the actor in a paper describing - largely - actions.

    Useless words and phrases litter the landscape, such as "To better understand", "for concreteness", "as a simple means", "to the best of our knowledge". Cushiony adverb goodness pads the document to the required length. "Explicitly propose" (instead of just "propose"), "dynamically revealed information" (as opposed to that other kind of revealed information), "remarkably sophisticated behaviours" (as opposed to the pedestrian kind, I guess).

    This paper is all kinds of awesome! It should be the touchstone for Stanford's "Writing in the Sciences" online course.

    My first impression (it's really dense!) is that the author conflates maximum entropy with the agent goal. It's not always the case that the goal is the maximally entropic state. This is likely true when actors must cooperate (as shown in the paper), but when actors compete the individual goal may not be maximum entropy.

    For example, consider competing for mates. Instead of choosing mates based on competitive merit, should an individual limit their offspring in order to give everyone in society a chance to reproduce? The non-cooperative goal isn't for maximal entropy.

    It also appears to describe intelligence as an evolutionary process seeking a function minimum over multiple-parameter phase space. While this might solve physical puzzles such as walking or throwing a ball, I'm not convinced that chess can be solved in this way. The search space is too big for an evolutionary solution.

    Still, I may be misapprehending the point of the article (it's really dense!). Read the paper and make your own assessment.

  33. How small does intelligence get? by See+Attached · · Score: 1

    Anyone who feels like a single entity needs to consider that much of what we are is a distributed system. Very small parts have tasks, such as shown on this movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWUmXx5V_wE . THis is a white blood cell (Neutrophil type) chasing down a little bad thing.. and gobbling it up. Sure, this can be attributed to Chemotaxis, but, the Neutrophil has intent. This seems unbeleivable. To get even crazier.. look into molecular motors.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7AQVbrmzFw ! Each of us is an amalgam, a colony of amazing things all going on at one time! The smart part of us - the brain, is the same part that does stupid things like smoking that takes its toll on so many little parts of us.. but.. the brain decides that its in its own best interest to buy the WHOLE CARTON because its cheaper that way. Oh, the humanities!

    --
    Time for a new Political party in the US (or two!) One is off the rails Other cant pony up a leader.
  34. Does this 'single equation' equal 42? by millertym · · Score: 1

    If so, that's all the hard scientific proof we need.

  35. Re:Relevant SMBC by dargaud · · Score: 1

    I laughed out loud at the 'beef tensors' !

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  36. Summary of paper by PhamNguyen · · Score: 1

    Here is my summary of the paper, from the authors website

    Entropy is usually defined as a function of the macroscopic state of a system at a given time. If we assume that the system evolves so as to move in the direction of maximum entropy at any time, then this defines some dynamics. What the authors propose is a foreward looking dynamic where the system moves in the direction that maximizes entropy and some future point. This automatically builds in forward looking (i.e. intelligent) behaviour into the system.

    They are able to demonstrate various kinds of "intelligent" behavior arising from this simple and general heuristic. The comparisons with human and animal behavior are in my opinion ridiculous. The value of the paper is in demonstrating that a wide variety of forward looking optimizations can be accomplished with a simple rule.

  37. Caveat emptor by govett · · Score: 1

    Another piece of the Skynet puzzle falls into place.

  38. Re:Relevant SMBC by Spinalcold · · Score: 1

    One of my favorite comics ever. Seriously though, I like when physicists step out of their area and play or dabble in other areas. Probably refreshing for them too. I think there isn't enough interdisciplinary projects out there for scientists.

  39. Make it work by vuo · · Score: 2

    You can make the examples work if you modify the problem. For instance, define that the box is cold, the room is hot and the food is hot. Then, putting the food in the box increases entropy. This is in fact analogous to eating, even in physical terms; the box that eats the food is an energy sink, just like a living being.

  40. Re:Garbage for betas by femtobyte · · Score: 1

    Let me make this even easier to comprehend. Statistics is a field of maths. It tells us, for example, the likelihood of throwing all sixes with a given number of dice. At some point, as the number of dice (n) increases, such an outcome becomes vanishingly unlikely, even given the 'age' of the Universe. You are aware that you could place any number of dice in the six uppermost position. What most of you fail to comprehend is that such an act is no different from rolling the dice according to the rules of the clockwork universe. You are therefore able to create an outcome statistically unlikely to the point of being completely impossible. You mind, by definition, does NOT run on a Turing Complete computer.

    Nice try with the sophistry here, but... nope. You're begging the question by assuming that a Turing Machine can't exhibit self-organizing behavior to produce some combinations of symbols (e.g. 6666......6666) with greater probability than others. It's darn easy to write a simple computer program that generates 66666.... as the output; in a big "clockwork universe" executing zillions of "subroutines," a simple digit-repeater program is wholly unexceptional. You want to prove your mind is something special? Then lay out a sequence of dice that, when interpreted as a base-6 data representation, has the MD5 hash "66666.....66666". That would be a compelling hard-for-turing-machine-to-produce result.

  41. Moderation is pathetic around here. by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    -1?! This is insightful! All this blathering on about "universes," when we don't even know if more than one exists! This is just theoretical math that proves nothing about anything, but people (especially those who must publish) talk as if it were so.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
    1. Re:Moderation is pathetic around here. by blue+trane · · Score: 1

      Math often precedes our discovery of its physical manifestation. Negative numbers were dismissed by the Babylonians, but find expression in nature as the charge on an electron, for example. Imaginary numbers were similarly dismissed, but seem to be intimately involved with the state of quantum particles...

  42. Re:Nonsense by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    Well done, sir.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  43. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    What "states" are "available" is merely a matter of perspective. Most actions humans take are designed toward particular outcomes, i.e. they are intended to reduce the number of possible states to those which are desired. This all raises the question of what a "state" is, and begs the question of whether we can even know how many there are.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  44. Re:It's Intelligent Design! by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    Way to go Slashdot: mod down those whom you disagree with. Who's the bigot now? Censorship sucks.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  45. +42, Funny. by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    Indeed.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  46. Useful and insightful by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    Mod up.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  47. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by femtobyte · · Score: 1

    "States" as a vague philosophical term are indeed poorly defined and unquantifiable. However, as a technical physics term in physics, there are very precise definitions for "counting states" (where "states" mean, e.g., positions and momenta of the components in a system). The paper shows that a hypothetical critter basing its decisions on how to move on maximization of available states in this precise physics sense will end up "solving" various problem-solving tasks. This hints that some brain function that guides action according to approximate estimates of "physics" accessible-state-maximization might be a component in producing observed "problem solving" behaviors in critters (likely including humans).

  48. Conatus by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    Another way of saying this, I think, is that an intelligent creature will seek to maximise the amount of power it has over its environment

    It is worth noting that this seems to be exactly what Spinoza calls conatus. In Spinoza thinking, conatus, and not reason, is driving human being behavior

  49. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by gottabeme · · Score: 1

    I think it's more reasonable to suggest that there are brain functions which are capable of observing and predicting and operating to produce certain physical actions, rather than estimating conceptual, statistical outcomes.

    --
    "Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
  50. Re:Wonder how correct his predictions will prove t by femtobyte · · Score: 1

    Think what you will; this question won't be resolved without a lot more careful scientific work. However, I think you're confusing yourself by adding the unnecessary requirement that brains need a "conceptual" view to estimate outcomes. I don't think anyone is arguing that the tool-use-capable brains of crows are not only capable of "conceptually" grokking freshman calculus, but also path integral formalisms. However, implementing heuristics approximately equivalent to path integral statistical formalisms isn't out-of-the-question for brain functions. In fact, "massively parallel" computations of the type necessary to (approximately) evaluate path integrals appear to be what the heavily-interlinked networks of zillions of neurons in a brain are good at. "Observing and predicting and operating to produce certain physical actions" might also be a lot harder than you think, given the difficulty of getting supercomputers to perform many of the most basic functions of a retarded squirrel (much less a crow or human).

  51. Basketball Jones by admiralfurburger · · Score: 1

    The Basketball Jones theory of intelligenge:
    My brain is like a seive.
    I pour knowledge in.
    I squeeze the handle a few times.
    All the useful stuff comes out the bottom.
    All the hard, useless chunks are left inside.