New All-Solid Sulfur Based Battery Outperforms Lithium Ion

olsmeister writes "The new all-solid battery design uses solid sulfur and lithium, and outperforms existing lithium-ion batteries with four times the energy density. The battery can maintain a capacity of 1200 milliampere-hours per gram after 300 charge-discharge cycles. More work needs to be done, but one would think this new technology could have applications in renewable energy storage, electric cars, and consumer electronics."

Comments

...and device runtime with stay the same

[Aboroth]

Don't get me wrong, I like the added features, but I hope nobody expects laptops that can be used for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course) or next-gen smart phones that can go a week without recharging. They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Cenan]

They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

"They"? Either the device is doing work four times more consuming, your device can stand by four times longer, or your device's battery is approximately four times lighter. Sure, retarded marketing drones are going to figure out a way to stuff four times the amount of adware onto a new laptop, but let's face it, they were going to do that regardless.

Assuming a 4 times increase in battery life at all scales and no size decrease, this would quadruple the range of electric cars - all for a simple battery tech switch. And the batteries are made partly from waste in another industry.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[BrokenHalo]

I think we're probably long overdue for a decent energy solution for consumer electronics. Hydrogen fuel-cell batteries still seem to be some way off, and cold fusion is just a pipe-dream. So in the meantime, if someone can supply a battery with four times the energy density of Li-ion cells, then I say "bring it on".

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

cold fusion is not a pipe dream, it's a carefully orchestrated fraud accepted by some heretical physicists that really don't understand their religion.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Joce640k]

Don't get me wrong, I like the added features, but I hope nobody expects laptops that can be used for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course) or next-gen smart phones that can go a week without recharging. They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

I'm much more interested in it for electric cars.

Four times the batter life in a cellphone? Meh - mine already lasts for days.

Four times the range of electric cars? World-changing technology.

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

Battery runtimes have improved enormously in the past five years; the bottom-end machine I bought then could barely break two hours, my new low-end laptop easily manages four. However that's more due to improvements in the computer hardware's power efficiency than the battery's capacity.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Threni]

> They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere

Isn't that what you want? You're suggesting we should just stop looking for better power sources because it'll be 'used' anyway?

You can save power now, on smartphones for example, if you do stuff like underclock the cpu, turn brightness down, handle wifi/gps etc more intelligently.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Twinbee]

As a new smartphone user (Galaxy S), I find my Android OS lasts around a week because I use it mostly only for phone calls/messages. You're right, bloat can sometimes fill the void, but not if you're relatively careful. See: http://android.stackexchange.com/questions/476/what-can-i-do-to-increase-battery-life-on-my-android-device

(Just to also add, I thought I'd hate the touchscreen compared to tactile buttons, but using Swype, I'd NEVER go back to a 'normal' button phone again).

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[MrMickS]

If the battery capacity increases as well then its a double win. Power efficiency in chip design is beneficial for all sorts of reasons, not just battery life, so will continue to improve. Having increased battery life will impact the current devices. It should also make others more practical as a given capacity battery will take up less space.

I think the GGP is overly pessimistic.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

The pinacle of /. cynicism, seeing every news no mather how good as pure crap.
"Oh, nothing will change, life is crap, everything is crap"

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Mystakaphoros]

Don't get me wrong, I like the added features, but I hope nobody expects laptops that can be used for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course) or next-gen smart phones that can go a week without recharging. They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

If someone will finally make a netbook with an e-ink screen, we could get around to that kind of battery life. I know the refresh rates suck, but the equivalent of a Kindle Paperwhite with a full keyboard, a basic word processing app, and a battery that lasts for days on end would be a writer's dream.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

what i really forsee is this would alow even smaller/lighter battery packs. with less space/weight devoted to power, devices can pack in other things, or simply be smaller lighter themselves.

course charging time is another factor. does this material have the same, more, or less time required for an equivalent charge? does it develop memory?

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

It's going to happen, yes, but I want to emphasise that it's not why these very palpable gains in battery life are being made at the moment.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[gstoddart]

Same idea as Wirth's Law:

Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster

Running the same stuff, we'd see battery life go up. But for the same reason my desktop doesn't really feel that much faster than the one I had 10 years ago, I tend to agree ... better batteries will just let us run what seems like the same stuff for the same amount of time.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

What kind of smartphone lasts days?
Maybe two days tops, if you barely use it on a brand new battery. Under heavy use most of them can be totally dead in under 4 hours.

Simple mobiles phones are all but extinct.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Entropius]

Why does everyone want devices to be even smaller and lighter? Have we gotten unable to lift the ones that we have?

If I could get a smartphone that weighed twice as much, with all that extra weight devoted solely to battery, I would.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

Yes, exactly as it happened when Apple got into the tablet market and killed everybody with 10h. Yeah, why would firms not want to have such a feature.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

USB chargers are cheap. Leave one at work, one in car and one at home. I wish the smart phones will have a dumb phone mode that automatically shuts off everything other than the phone function when the remaining capacity falls below 3% or so and becomes a dumb phone. May be there is an app for this. But with touch screens there are no buttons and it is impossible to shut down the most energy consuming part of the smart phone, the screen.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[thegarbz]

Laptops? Smartphones? I'm more interested in applications for ultra-low power consumption devices. The devices I'm installing at work currently run off batteries for around 3-4 years at a time. I'd love to see these increased. I wonder what the shelf life / self-discharge rate of this new battery would be.

How about a camera? My camera only takes around 2000 photos on a single charge of it's two batteries. That's fine normally but a bit of a pain for multi-day timelapse footage where I invariably bump the camera while swapping out the batteries.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

I already do that.
The car one is only 500mA though so not very good.

I am often not in my car, or at work, or at home. I have looked into getting a portable battery to carry around as well. The phones are already thin enough. My Galaxy Nexus could double its thickness and still be comfortable to handle.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

There's a tension between the advantages of bigger displays and more battery capacity, and the reality that smartphones are stepping into a niche in people's pockets normally occupied by a cellphone the size of a deck of cards. I certainly can't fit anything bigger than a 4-inch screen in my usual jeans pocket.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[alexander_686]

What about a nuclear battery? I knew a guy who had one of those for his pacemaker. They would last for years.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Runbo X5
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/15/runbo-x5-x3-x1/

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

Sure, but it could be 4" screen and as thick as a deck of cards and still fit in your pockets. If not, stop wearing your wife's/girlfriend's jeans.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Iceykitsune]

If you are only doing phone calls and text messages, you do not need a smartphone.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[GameboyRMH]

That won't be a bad thing for smartphones (I say that once you can go maybe 18 hours of average use between charges, that's enough), laptops could use more power though and electric cars sure as shit won't be wasting any of it.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[GameboyRMH]

It may finally be enough to overpower "range anxiety."

Or on the other hand, to make cars lighter and/or cheaper. I considered EV-swapping my sports car late last year but went with another ICE because of the expense and weight. I figured I only needed 30 miles range, but it still would have added about 500lbs to the car and the battery alone would have been over $10k.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Twinbee]

You don't 'need' lots of things, but that doesn't mean they can't help. Have you ever used something like Swype? It's far superior to any button phone I've used. The much larger display you get (due to no wasted space for meatspace keys) is a real boon, and the touchscreen itself is obviously more intuitive than messing about with arrow keys etc. for navigation.

Yes, they're sometimes expensive if you don't shop around, but I almost guarantee 'button' phones will be the exception rather than the rule in a decade's time.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Stuarticus]

That's what I thought until I bought a double size battery for my Galaxy S3, it was horrible. Ended up with the Samsung larger capacity one that is only slightly larger, it's the battery they should have put in it in the first place.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[poetmatt]

except your statement doesn't reflect on reality.
a: batteries have increased in both runtime and capacity
and b: there's nothing wrong with expecting that trend to continue as it has. There are 8+ hour laptops now that don't involve carrying a brick with you - in fact, the only brick-carrying laptops now are the gaming laptops and that's the AC power brick they use.

Aside from that, your statement is completely wrong.

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[poetmatt]

Except that has nothing to do with why we don't see it.

Much of that has to do with that it's not a manufacturer's top priority, and also that just because a research battery achieves this doesn't mean it's ready for prime time. They still have to manufacture it into the form factors they want and test those, etc.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[poetmatt]

try getting a new phone, and you will experience what you have from the post you replied to. Under nonstop use new phones get about 8 hours now, which is a drastic improvement over previous models (even if we have a long way to go).

As 140manda notes is correct, use a USB charger in the car (that relies on simple USB cables) and take the cable with you wherever, if you need to. Then keep AC adapters wherever you need them. done.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Shortguy881]

He said cell phone, not smart phone.

Simple mobiles phones are all but extinct.

Go to walmart's prepayed phone section. I have one of those dinky $15 virgin mobile phones and that thing lasts about four days with no charges. Awesome phone

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

>all for a simple battery tech switch

Not so simple, except in terms of the mechanic doing the battery replacement. (which of course is one of the beauties of electric vehicles - really easy aftermarket mods to the power system) Battery tech is *the* bottleneck for electric vehicles, and so far it's proved anything but easy to improve on significantly.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

I have used GS2 with a double size battery it was fine. Had the whole device been one thickness that would have been better. I have also handled an iphone with a case that doubled its thickness rather than bulging out in one place, that was also acceptable.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

Yeah and it is a terrible computing device.
I have not made a single call with my phone in the last two days. I have used it for all its other uses constantly.

With what you suggest I would be better served with a wristwatch and no phone at all.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Russ1642]

Regardless of how well it works or how safe it is you're just not allowed to use the word 'nuclear' with the public. That word is now contaminated.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

For you swype might be, for me it is totally useless. It does not even have a Crtl key. Arrow keys are something I must have, hard to use vim/shell without. Trying to touch the right spot to edit text is simply an exercise in futility. You have to touch and then move the marker around, arrows are way more precise.

It seems only hackers keyboard has the buttons I want. What Android really should have is a way to say I want this keyboard for that application. Instead of one setting for the whole OS.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Ost99]

In a decade's time?
Are you a time traveler from 1999?

Touchscreen have been the rule the last 4-5 years. I'm not sure I know anyone who's bought a button phone this decade.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[afgam28]

Have a look on Amazon or eBay for an "extended battery". It's basically an oversized battery and usually comes with a new back plate for your phone's case, to make extra room for the larger battery.

I personally wouldn't buy one due to the extra bulk but it might be what you're after.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Twinbee]

I agree very much with the spirit of your post, since I'm a programmer (though would never dream of using a smartphone for that). However, in principle, and like you imply, smartphones should be able to add those custom keys, whilst with a real meatspace keyboard, you're stuck with the buttons they've given you.

I also agree with you about touching the right spot to edit text - it is a bit tacky. Arrows would be nice here (of course those can be on the smartphone too - don't have to be meatspace keys necessarily).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[kaiser423]

My wife's RAZR MAXXXXXXXX routinely goes all weekend without needing to be recharged and it's two years old. It used to do better when first bought. She's a pretty heavy talker and casual game player too.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[formfeed]

"They"? Either the device is doing work four times more consuming, your device can stand by four times longer, ...

Just wait, till my pocket-warmer app comes out.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Twinbee]

I don't follow these things well, but what I really mean is that it'll be very hard to buy anything but a smartphone (by that I mean a phone without a meatspace keyboard).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Cenan]

Just wait, till my pocket-warmer app comes out.

Lemme guess, Bitcoin/SETI@Home full screen client with 3D accelerated visualization?

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a samsung dumb phone as apposed to a smart phone and it is very intentional... I figure if it is important enough to bug me in the middle of lunch then you will call otherwise I'll check my email when I get back to the office. My battery will last about 4-6 hours of continuous use depending on signal strength. On a holiday weekend, if work doesn't calls, I can go 3 days before I need a charge

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

Hackers keyboard really does it quite well.
I even modify perl scripts on it with no real problem. Very handy when I don't have a laptop with me and something needs to be fixed or changed quickly.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

Oh *hell* yeah.

Of course what I *really* want is a full-sized (15"+) laptop with a transflective or color e-ink screen, so that I could sit outside wherever I like when working, rather than having to hide away somewhere that I can actually see my screen. It doesn't even need very good specs, your average $300 crap laptop is already overkill for almost everything except games. Just give me a tool that lets me spend the day hiking and working in the woods and I'm sold.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

We used to have executives that would go out to lunch with us IT folks occasionally and they would check and reply to their email the entire time on their blackberry. We used to tell them they had Crackberry Syndrome, I'm guessing you do too. Dedication is great but you got to take a break and eat occasionally.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Rhipf]

Actually I can already use my laptop "for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course)". It still has a total battery life of ~6-8hrs but if I only use it an hour or two a day it lasts for days between charges).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

Some people can't do that.
I would then have to carry a laptop around when on call. More likely just all the time.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

I do not check my email when I am not on the clock.
When not on call I even turn it off or put it in airplane mode quite frequently. Having a smartphone means I don't have to go back to the car for my laptop when something breaks. The monitoring system sends text messages, that again I only have notification turned on for when I am on call.

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

I should clarify, the "very palpable gains" I'm referring to are in laptop battery life, not battery performance.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[jellomizer]

For the electric car,
We will need 500 miles average per charge. (10 hour drive at 50Mph). That is about the normal tolerance a person can take driving on a long trip. Now if it can store more energy... How long will it take to recharge it. if you go over 8 hours (over night) you it may still not be viable as a good way to replace the Gasoline cars. That said it may be able to give a little extra push to Hybrid cars so they can use more electric and less gas, because their batteries can store more.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

If anyone was making phones in that form factor I'd be all for it, but it's small and thin or large and thin. I can get a battery case at least.

(That thickness might still be pushing it.)

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sockatume]

Nokia was researching a power-sipping basic phone that could charge itself off the inductive power of the cellular radio transmitters themselves, and still keep up because the power usage was so low. (Their basic models already do about 30 days to a 1 Ah battery.) I think that project died though.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Runaway1956]

Uhhhh, no, that isn't what I want.

I'm sitting in front of a computer that is orders of magnitude faster than my first computer. I have orders of magnitude more memory. I have orders of magnitude more storage than any of my first six computers.

And the stupid thing is, a little bit of crapware, moronic animations, poorly crafted scripts, and all the other trash found on the internet, can make my machine crawl. How does all this power benefit me, exactly, if no-programing lackwits can just WASTE all that power trying to decipher what the hell their page is supposed to be?

Imagine a four engine jet aircraft with so much power you'll never need it. So, some moron passenger takes control of one of your engines, and uses it as an air brake, or finds ways to point it in random directions, then gives it a shot of power.

Find the better power sources, then let ME decide what the hell to do with that power. Don't just ramp up all the software in the world to waste the power!

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Firethorn]

Indeed. I think I've been saying for around a decade "There's nothing wrong with EV's that a battery that lasts twice as long for half the price wouldn't fix'. Assuming this battery is identical to LiIon in cost per pound, the 4X energy density would mean that you could get 'extended range' Model S range at less than the price of a baseline one.

As is, the extended range batteries add so much weight to the vehicle that it adversely affects kwh per 100 miles - the 60 kwh battery is 35 kWh/100m, the 85 drops that to 38.

If an additional 25 kwh of battery currently does that, what happens if you 'only' double the total capacity, cutting the size/weight by half?

I really, really hope this becomes reality. Because I'd like to get an EV or a hybrid without breaking the bank, and it's my opinion that this is the last push needed.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cyberchondriac]

Yay, hydrogen based fuel cells and sulphur based batteries. If ever the 'twain meet - hydrogen sulfide... the future will smell like rotten eggs and fart!
;-p

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dubbreak]

Count me in. Minimum 900 lines vertical resolution (so 1600*900 assuming 16:9).. smaller is fine by me as long as the resolution is there. I often try to code outside on my deck. Even with a table umbrella I need to crank the brightness to high and it's still really difficult to see. Plus with the brightness cranked up I'd better have an extension cord nearby.

Can't game on it? Perfect. Less distractions possible while I work (plus I have tons of other devices for gaming).

Only way I can see it happening in general is if Apple starts with something like a MBA with a transflective display then other companies will take notice and want a piece of that market too. In the past I could have seen Lenovo/IBM making an expensive thinkpad that fits the bill, but I don't really see it as something Lenovo in its current state would venture off into.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[CoolHnd30]

Mod this up!!! I've been waiting so long for EV's to have the range I need!!

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Swype has arrow keys. Swype from the "Swype" key in the lower left to the keyboard changer key directly to the right of it.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[h4rr4r]

Ok, so where is Ctrl?
I also need Esc and ~ and `.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[tlhIngan]

Don't get me wrong, I like the added features, but I hope nobody expects laptops that can be used for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course) or next-gen smart phones that can go a week without recharging. They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

While I can see a few niche cashes for extended use, laptop batteries have been getting longer and longer battery life over the past 10-15 years. Before that, 2 hours was considered a "typical" battery life (real usage: 1.5 hrs normally). These days, laptops that get 4+ hours aren't unusual at all, even 6+ real use hours.

Though, given the average person, a battery that lasts longer than 24 hours Is pointless - short of extended computing periods mobile with no breaks and such. After all, people need sleep, and sleep is generally a great time to put your devices on charge so they're ready to go when you wake up in the morning.

I've never understood the desire for week long battery life - for a smartphone, 2 days is generally reasonable (for the times you do accidentally forget to plug it in before bed). Even for a laptop more than 20-odd hours isn't generally as useful anymore.

Perhaps for a laptop the most useful thing would be to have a way to dock the adapter with the laptop - most are used near sources of power - it's just generally people don't want to haul piles of accessories at the same time. If the AC adapter came along, most needs for battery life vanish.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[sshir]

Even if this is a real breakthrough (not one of those "breakthroughs" in battery technology we hear about every other week), there is the problem: power density.They don't mention what it is, but given that the voltage is half of lithium - we can deduce that it sucks.

So at very least, that creates complications for electric car's design (like a need for a super-capacitor or such), plus charging time would suck too.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cusco]

500 miles average? Holy crap, what kind of commute do you make every day? Seriously, though, I've been driving since 1978 and have never owned a vehicle that could go more than 430 miles on a tank of gas. Very few people drive more than 50 miles in a day, your charge would keep even them going for two weeks.

I don't recall driving more than 200 miles at a stretch in the last decade (and then complained incessantly to my boss about having to do it for a week). If I were in the market for an electric vehicle I'd make sure it had a 100 mile range, and then use a gasoline vehicle for trips longer than that. I really don't understand why plugging the thing in at the end of the day is such an insurmountable burden.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Zalbik]

I hope nobody expects laptops that can be used for multiple days in a row without recharging (with sleep mode enabled between sessions of course) or next-gen smart phones that can go a week without recharging. They will figure out how to use that extra power somewhere, leaving us at around the same runtime as before.

So you're basically saying that if a large segment of the market wants extended battery life, nobody is going to chase after that market?
Or are you saying that only a small minority of people want extended battery life?

I want both. I want a low power laptop with an extended battery life to use for surfing, email, etc, that only needs to be plugged in once I week. I also want a honking blisters-on-your-lap power-horse that causes the lights to dim when I plug it in to use for development and gaming. More efficient battery designs will help make both of these possible.

I'm certain there is a market for longer life low-power laptops. One of the things I absolutely love about my eBook is that I rarely need to remember to charge it. Once a month or so I put new books on it, leave it plugged in overnight, and that does it. I refuse to use a tablet for eBooks for that reason alone.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[chill]

Hmmm...just run it as a hybrid with a diesel modified to run on french fry grease.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

` and ~ are there. In the symbols section, hit shift to see extra symbols, including these two. I don't see esc or ctrl however.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[gl4ss]

I charge twice a week or so.

nokia 808. I use it mostly for web browsing and phone stuff... of course it will run out of battery in few hours if in constant use with screen on. really battery isn't much of an issue.. sometimes it goes pretty low and I need to refrain from using it but that's because I don't need to charge it every night so I might leave home with it at 1/4th charge and still have enough to do all the "phone" stuff and fifteen minutes of browsing ok.

but yeah, it's enough. quadrupling the range of a car is a much bigger thing.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

If someone will finally make a netbook with an e-ink screen, we could get around to that kind of battery life. I know the refresh rates suck, but the equivalent of a Kindle Paperwhite with a full keyboard, a basic word processing app, and a battery that lasts for days on end would be a writer's dream.

You could call it the Kindle Model 100.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who already knows batteries (live off-grid with PV), and EVs (own a Volt) - this is nice, but...there's always a but - no data on can it handle the same sorts of peak power that my Volt's Li-Ion can. If not - it's not going to be useful in a car. My lead acid home batteries for example degrade fast if you try to charge or discharge them faster than about C/10, where the Volt batteries easily do 100x the charge/discharge rate without a problem; and yes, enlightened solar home owners would *kill* to have something like the Volt system for their homes - more efficient, longer lasting, and so on. But for now, GM will only sell that system to a car owner (and you have to give the old one back) at a fairly cheap (subsidized) price...those who have other worthwhile uses for that system (it ain't as simple a just a buncha cells, not by a long way) - are still waiting for the tech from the generation before at this point.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[LordLimecat]

People who care about creating rather than simply consuming?

You can have my blackberry when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sique]

[...]there is the problem: power density.They don't mention what it is, but given that the voltage is half of lithium - we can deduce that it sucks.

They actually do, and they calculate it's four times that of Lithium-Ion.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Sique]

You miss the point of having a long range car.

I don't use the car very often, in town, I prefer the bicycle. So it's basicly once a week for the weekend shopping. But if I really need the car, then it's going to be long distance. My parents live 400 mls from my home, my brother lives 660 mls away. Currently, they are out of reach for a one-day-trip on an all-electric car, I would have to stay overnight and recharge the car to get there.

This means that I would have to buy two cars, one for the short trips, and one for the long trips, which makes no sense. And an electric car just for the short trips and each time a rental car for the long ones is quite expensive to maintain. So it's still be better to buy a long distance going car, thus a gas engine, and use it also on short trips.

With an electric car with four times the current range, this changes. I could actually get an all-electric car and use it for both short and long distance.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[jellomizer]

Well 480 miles is fairly close to the 500 mile mark.

But if you figure it is going to take hours to recharge. You will need a larger capacity than a gasoline. Which can be filled up in a few minutes.

 

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Alioth]

Well, no, they tell us in TFA that it's four times the energy density than a Li-Ion battery. We don't use the Li-Ion's native voltage (about 3.8v nominal for most of them) to power electric cars, either. The battery is made up of multiple cells connected in series (or series parallel for a big pack) such that the resulting battery voltage is what you need for your application.

What the article doesn't mention is what the 'C' rating for these batteries would be. Current lithium-ion technologies these days had very good C ratings, but early ones did not. The early batteries couldn't discharge at more than about 1C (so a 1 amp hour battery could only deliver a current of 1 amp without damage) but current lithium-polymer batteries often have C ratings >30. I have a Li-Poly battery for my RC gear that's about the size of two cigarette packs that can output enough current to easily start a car. Can Li-S batteries be built to have high C ratings for both charge and discharge? If not then they are only really useful in portable devices.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not made a single call with my phone in the last two days.

So what? Do you think just because you did not see the need to make phone calls the last two days, nobody did?
Or that just because you consider having a computer with you all the time as essential, everybody does?

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Kreigaffe]

First-world problems.

EVs are only going to be a novelty so long as they're only viable if you own two cars.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

If it has more capacity than you normally need, it doesn't matter if it can't be fully recharged over night. You'll only need to recharge as much as you consumed. But it is nice if you have an extra reserve for the case that you can't recharge as soon as you thought.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

>cutting the size/weight/and cost by half?
FTFY, assuming cost/pound stayed the same of course.
Now *that* would seriously kick-start the EV market. And start opening up the low end as well if you stuck with current ranges at 1/4 the cost, which are actually quite adequate for lots of people. Not to mention the effect it'd have on more city-friendly transportation like electric scooters, bikes, etc. which are currently right on the edge of widespread feasibility.

Of course that also brings up another factor - size. That's another significant factor in practical EV range, and they don't actually mention that in the article. If these batteries are considerably less dense than current tech (which micro-engineered materials makes a distinct possibility) then their kWh/liter capacity might not be as impressive as you would hope. Now you *could* make the car larger, but that carries a significant social cost anywhere that traffic congestion is an issue. There are ways to counteract that though, personally as gas taxes cease to be relevant I'd love to see them replaced with a milage tax applied to all vehicles, scaling nonlinearly with vehicle size and weight to reflect the specific vehicles impact on congestion (=new construction) and road maintenance costs (road damage increases super-linearly with vehicle weight)

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dgatwood]

480 miles is an outlier. Most gasoline-powered vehicles only go about 300 miles.

That said, in the absence of fast charging, even a 500-mile range is a long way from being able to replace gasoline-powered vehicles. The critical questions are:

• How far you can realistically drive in a day?
• How much capacity will the battery lose before the car is junk?

If the answer to the first question is 12 hours, you need a 720-mile range, because you're not going to be able to charge it during the day. And if the answer to the second question is that after ten years, it is down to 60% of its usable life, then to achieve a 720-mile range at ten years, you would need a 1200 mile range when the vehicle is new. Add at least a 15% safety margin, and you conclude that we need somewhere approaching a 1400–1500-mile range before purely electric vehicles can fully replace gasoline-powered vehicles.

What this ignores, of course, is the potential for convertible vehicles. An electric vehicle with a trailer hitch can be trivially converted into a hybrid vehicle by adding a gasoline engine with a tank on a small, wheeled pod. The pod could connect to the car's electrical system, monitor the battery level, and charge up the batteries when needed. As far as the vehicle design is concerned, the only required changes would be a couple of additional power lines to a connector near the trailer hitch and a standard communication protocol for querying the battery level.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about an app though it should be possible. If you disable data access and turn off the data radios in android the phone suddenly lasts for a week instead of a day though. The thing about the screen is, its only on when you're typing in a phone number to call; it's not on when its in your pocket or when you're talking on it.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no, they tell us in TFA that it's four times the energy density than a Li-Ion battery.

Energy density and power density are not the same thing. The difference is, for example, one of the major difference in applications in capacitors and batteries.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[ArsonSmith]

A car is kept for convenience of transportation. If you're work commute is all you have a car for and it is short, take a bike or bus or start a van pool and don't bother with owning a car. This is my only issue with EVs right now. It would have to be a secondary car dedicated to driving back and forth to work. I would not be able to take it to my cabin, camping, las vegas, or any of the other thing I would like to do that would push the range to it's very max or beyond. The cost of a dedicated comuter would have to be very low, like under $10k USD. Otherwise I'll get a multipurpose car/truck/suv so I can do something other than drive back and forth to work.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

Heck, let's push for 1080p, then we can share the screen with standard-resolution outdoor TVs and drive the price down - go ahead and tell me there's wouldn't be huge demand for such a thing among the barbecue-loving sports fan demographic. Plus then we could proceed to re-purpose the TVs as additional monitors.

I've got to insist on the size though, even a 12" screen is painfully cramped to program on at any resolution - either you can only see a few lines at a time, or you have to hunch over to see the tiny text clearly, with your eyes and posture paying the price. Maybe in protrait mode, but doesn't seem like anyone has yet really worked out how to do that gracefully with a laptop. Plus it needs to be big enough for a full-sized keyboard anyway. I can live without a numeric keypad if I have to, but those netbook keyboards are *way* too small for real work unless you have dainty childlike hands (though damn would I have loved one of those as a kid).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[mdielmann]

>all for a simple battery tech switch

Not so simple, except in terms of the mechanic doing the battery replacement. (which of course is one of the beauties of electric vehicles - really easy aftermarket mods to the power system) Battery tech is *the* bottleneck for electric vehicles, and so far it's proved anything but easy to improve on significantly.

So...what you're saying is, once a whole bunch of stuff has been done, and Tesla has approved a new type of battery, someone could take their Model S to the shop and simply have their battery tech switched, right? Sounds pretty simple from the consumer point of view - no more difficult than changing to winter tires.

Really, for the end consumer, this is no different than the switch from NiMH to Li-Ion in laptops. If you can't do it for your current one, you can certainly get it for your next one. If the chargers are made even half-decently, they can probably be upgraded, too. All those huge hurdles that are passed first are invisible to the end user.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Khyber]

It already exists on iOS - it's called 'Maps'

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[JazzLad]

So a smartphone has been redefined to mean a touchscreen-only phone? Is your smartphone experience limited to iPhone? Rather than redefine a word, why not say "what I really mean is that it'll be very hard to buy anything but a touchscreen-only phone"

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhhh, no, that isn't what I want.

I'm sitting in front of a computer that is orders of magnitude faster than my first computer. I have orders of magnitude more memory. I have orders of magnitude more storage than any of my first six computers.

And the stupid thing is, a little bit of crapware, moronic animations, poorly crafted scripts, and all the other trash found on the internet, can make my machine crawl. How does all this power benefit me, exactly, if no-programing lackwits can just WASTE all that power trying to decipher what the hell their page is supposed to be?

You're quite obviously unaware of it, but many of the computing tasks you take for granted today, while you complain about how *slow* your computer is, wouldn't have been *possible* to do in less than a week given the hardware of the 1980s and 1990s. And your current computer is doing *many* of those tasks.

If you don't want the 'crapware' to bog down your system, DON'T run it. Certainly don't INSTALL it. Problem solved.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[steelfood]

Four times the batter life in a cellphone?

No, but maybe they could make the cellphone battery lighter and thinner, or make the phone more powerful, or make powerful phones cheaper.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Tokolosh]

Do you have a Windows phone? If so, you may also need Alt and Del.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

Yes. As with anything it's very simple once all the work has been done.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Ravaldy]

You gotta get rid of your 3GS IPhone.

I use my phone as a tool and I get 2 days of life with the battery. That's about 2 hours of talk time, two dozen emails, a dozen texts and map usage as well as reading the news. And all that on what I would call a heavy OS (Windows Mobile 8).

If you use the phone for gaming I understand why you only get 4 hours.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[formfeed]

Just wait, till my pocket-warmer app comes out.

Lemme guess, Bitcoin/SETI@Home full screen client with 3D accelerated visualization?

I was thinking of something even less useful. Something like the flashlight app but for heat generation:
You click on the "hand-warmer" icon and put the phone in your pocket. The app will run something like cpuburn (without giving credit of course) till the CPU hits 60C (adjustable in the premium version), then keep the phone at that temperature till the battery is dead, or till you take it out of the pocket and remember to shut it off (or once you enter a building with wifi in the premium version).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[nbritton]

Four times the range of electric cars? World-changing technology.

Do we know for a fact that this new battery technology can be deep cycled, in addition to withstanding prolonged high current draw applications like in electric cars, boats, and planes? If so then yes it would be revolutionary, provided it doesn't cost four times more then the current technologies.

4x the density would come in handy for powering stealth drones, the military should be very interested in this...

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

If you swype from the swype key to the number key next to it you get the arrow keyboard.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

stop wearing your wife's/girlfriend's jeans.

As far as I know, my wife doesn't have a girlfriend.

Oh wait, I guess women use "girlfriend" to mean "a friend who is a girl"? So confusing.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

some of us have equipment taking up space that leaves little room for full pockets.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

you missed the point. one reason devices are the size they are is to fit everything in. theres very little unused space. if you could devote less space to the battery, that space can be used for other things. it can also be applied outside the realm of phones and tablets, such as wearable computers or the "wristwatchphoneputer".or it could simply make existing devices smaller. look at most smart phones.

myself, i find a 6 inch long brick, no matter how thin, uncomfortable in a pair of pants (cant use a holster due to my work envirnment; snag hazard). about the only way it can sit comfortably in the pocket of a pair of jeans is if the pocket is so deep it goes halfway down my thigh. its sillyness. why i like my primitive lil gophone thingy (nearly indestructable samsung blackberry clone, $20 from target that i popped my sim card into). its only about 1.5x3 in in size. compare that to most android devices which are at least half a foot long and wider than my phone is tall. two biggest reason i still dont have a smartphone: lack of need, and size.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[SeaFox]

Either the device is doing work four times more consuming, your device can stand by four times longer, or your device's battery is approximately four times lighter. Sure, retarded marketing drones are going to figure out a way to stuff four times the amount of adware onto a new laptop, but let's face it, they were going to do that regardless.

I predict they will follow Apple's lead and use the new battery technology to make devices unnecessarily thinner with no additional run time.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

Yeah and it is a terrible computing device.
I have not made a single call with my phone in the last two days. I have used it for all its other uses constantly.

With what you suggest I would be better served with a wristwatch and no phone at all.

this post illustrates so eloquently the faulty thought processes you use.
you complain that a simple phone makes a shitty computer....no kidding huh?
and then say you never call anyone...and even you admit you really dont need a phone...

so im not really seeing the problem here in the devices. as usual....TPLBTKATC

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

my lil samsung net5 (i think....theyre up to net 10 now) prepaid lasts ~6 or 7 days on a charge. the best part was all had to do was take the simcard out of my old dead phone, and pop it in. then i sold the $25 prepaid sim that came with the phone on craigslist for $25. so my net cost was like 5$ plus the sales tax.

AT&T wanted me to pay for a replacement, or else use the "once a year upgrade"....along with the associated costs of a forced migration and upgrade...all in all i figure it worked out pretty good.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh, half the jeans I own are too tight in the legs yet always feel like they're sliding down. The other half are comfy but get referred to as "Dad Jeans".

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dywolf]

not only didnt RTFA....you didnt even RTFS.
its right there in the summary dude...."outperforms existing lithium-ion batteries with four times the energy density."

it packs in 8x the milliamp hours (or wheverter it was) of li-ion, but has abotu half the output voltage size for size. the result: 4x the power density.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[mdielmann]

Now explain to me why all that work, which the typical user figures has been done by fairies or elves anyway, has any relevance to said user when he goes to get his battery changed? All he is going to care about is how much will it cost, how long will it take, and how much better will it be.

We truly stand on the shoulders of giants. Even a "simple" hammer or wheel isn't simple any more. There is serious research in both of those. And yet, I can still take a cash equivalent of one to three hours of my time and buy this device which literally has thousands of hours of research applied to it. It really is quite simple. Just like the tech switch between two different battery technologies.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Cenan]

Thank you - well said. And to add nothing of value, may I point out that the article is about a team of researchers who literally has done the work.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[halltk1983]

You can always add one via bluetooth: http://www.amazon.com/Mini-Bluetooth-Keyboard-Smartphones-iPhone/dp/B00512Z28W

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[AaronW]

Actually this is possible. Most of the battery smarts are integrated into the battery pack itself and the car is designed so that the battery pack can be replaced in a few minutes. The fact that the battery pack itself is made up of one of the most standard battery sizes makes it much easier for Tesla to change batteries once they're qualified.

Of course there's more to batteries than just capacity. Tesla has to worry about longevity as well as how quickly it can charge and discharge as well as safety.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cusco]

No, the question should be: How far **DO** you realistically drive in a day? The parent has a rather exceptional use-case, normal people wouldn't be driving 20 hours round trip to visit their parents every weekend.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cusco]

Why own the second car if you're only going to do the exceptional drive once a month or so? You can rent a perfectly good vehicle that frequently for less than just the depreciation cost of a new second car.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[sshir]

And you haven't bothered to reread what YOU wrote. Second line: "energy density", last line: "power density". These are different things you know... Man up and apologize.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[mdielmann]

Let me be clear, I'm not trivializing their work, and I truly appreciate what they and others like them have done - I wouldn't call myself a typical user. But one of the most amazing things to me is when something new is made so well that either people just change their habits because the new way is that much simpler or the new thing just replaces the old thing without any real thought having to be given to it at all.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

It may finally be enough to overpower "range anxiety."

In that case, Peter North will certainly endorse the product, along with Super Ropes licorice.

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[FishTankX]

wikipedia says c/5 optimal up to 2c. If we assume c for acceleration a 60kwh battery pack would kick out 80hp. 2c would give 160. Not terrible.... but a paralell super capacitor would likely solve high battery drain and increase acceleration. super caps can kick out a few thousand c so you would only need a small one.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. My reaction to this kind of story has been the same for a while now. I yawn. I'll believe it when it hits the market, and when it works well enough to be viable on the market, and doesn't periodically cause cancer, or start fires in people's pockets, etc. Remember when those guys figured out how to achieve "cold fusion"?

Great, happy to hear the news of the battery that achieves power densities several times greater than today's. Can't wait to [yawn] see it. Just like every other sky-pie idea that the "news" media reports on, desperate to convince people to keep paying them to report stuff when, as it sometimes happens, there's nothing to report ON. It's all a scheme to make sure they can make money when nothing terribly important or interesting happens.

They rotate these stories. If it's Tuesday, it must be a report about semen on bedspreads and fecal-bacteria on remote controls in hotels. If it's Thursday, it's a space rock that's coming within a half an AU of Earth. On Saturdays, we have SCANDALS! Mondays are the latest stupid fad, Wednesdays are what some research suggests either causes or cures cancer, or helps you shed those stubborn pounds. Friday - ah Friday - we have "human interest" bullshit, the kids who are shaving their heads to protest the wearing of fur, a teenager who volunteers to feed the homeless...

You get the idea.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of smartphone lasts days?

Average runtime on my Lumia 920 is 36 hours, not uncommon at all for it to last through two workdays before I have to put in on the charger.

"Battery Saver" mode easily makes it last 4 or 5 days between charges (if you don't mind background updates being suspended). Handy for when you're lost in the woods, I suppose. lol

That's with normal usage, though. Constantly hammering it? Yeah, it'll chew through the battery relatively quickly.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[shaitand]

Some of us need our phones to communicate with females in addition to work functions.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

By that measure how exactly is a battery replacement any different than a complicated system overhaul? It's all done by magic pixies behind the screen at the mechanic shop for most people. When replacing the single most expensive component of an EV I kind of doubt mechanic-hours is a big part of the expense.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[mdielmann]

First, the most likely mass initial deployment, once approved, will be in new cars. The net mechanic hours will be nil, but I expect the cost will still increase, at least initially. Like most people, besides mechanics, I don't care how many hours it takes, I care how much it's going to cost. The two aren't completely related.

Second, if someone decides to upgrade their car with the new battery, I expect the old one will get you some credit. Again, the question is how much will it help?

Third, the mechanic hours isn't the big deal, the big deal in an aftermarket upgrade is, "How long will I be without my toy?" Again, how much the mechanic gets paid, which will certainly be a only fraction of the overall cost, but the inconvenience of waiting for your toy (or your primary means of transportation) will be a factor.

And the difference between a major overhaul and a simple drop-in replacement is similar to the difference between buying a great new home and renovating your home while you live in it. One has a certain amount of pain and an immediate result (for some definitions of immediate). The other can take a loooong time, inconveniences you while it's happening, and invariably has hiccups along the way. Likewise, the new home may as well have been built by magic pixies, too.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Strongly disagree - I miss my Pi ounce flip phone's weight, even the iPhone 5 feels heavy to me.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dubbreak]

Good point. I haven't done any serious work on anything smaller than a 15" in.. I don't know how long. I was just sending some email on my old macbook 13" and I couldn't imagine typing code on the thing anymore (though I did when I was younger). Different strokes for different folks though. I worked with a guy that would code on a 10" netbook in visual studio. I could see doing it for a short time in VIM or similar, but a full blown IDE? One of my buddies swears his MBA 13" is the best thing since sliced bread, but he spends most of his time in emacs. Another MBA lover uses Sublime 2 mainly. I'd like to see one of them try to be productive in xcode on those things.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Firethorn]

FTFY, assuming cost/pound stayed the same of course.

Of course, that assumption was in my first paragraph in the first post: "Assuming this battery is identical to LiIon in cost per pound".

And start opening up the low end as well if you stuck with current ranges at 1/4 the cost

It should be a bit less than 1/4 the cost to maintain current ranges with this theoretical new battery - dropping 3/4 of the battery weight will tend to increase efficiency, resulting in a touch more range. Of course, this would be more noticeable the longer ranged the original vehicle is, in the sense that more battery weight cut = easier to notice efficiency gain. A 60 mile leaf will notice the lost weight less than a 240 mile model S; battery being already proportionally less in the leaf.

On volume - while it matters, I think it matters far less than weight. You can gain a LOT of volume by expanding the 'engine' area. Heck, make the vehicle a touch higher, with a 'platform' of batteries on the bottom. You could make the vehicle very hard to flip that way.

On road costs - you're right about gasoline taxes, but I think you'd probably end up doing one of the mileage schemes(preferably odometer based, not spy-capable GPS), or charging a set fee up front when the vehicle is purchased. A F-350 type truck is going to do less damage to the roads if the owner only hauls it out every other weekend(or so) to go camping or for some emergency than somebody that uses most of an 85 kwh Model S's charge every day.

Your mentioning the size DID make me think of a few different potential issues though - relative power capacity(how FAST can these batteries discharge their energy?), charge capacity(how fast can you charge them?), and charge efficiency(what percentage is lost in the charging cycle?). LiIon is relatively extremely good at all three - you can charge and discharge them quite quickly for their size, and they're over 90% efficient. If, along with half the voltage they also have half the amp capacity for their size, you might only see them in long range EV's - with early hybrids a lot of research went into increasing current capacity, which isn't necessary for EV's and 'strong hybrids' that can go significant distances on battery power alone, but is an issue when you're only using the battery as an evener.

If you can't pull enough power for decent performance with a low range battery, you'll have to increase the size to get it, along with increasing the range.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Ost99]

It's mainly our expectations that change.
What we considered unbelievable fast 10 or 20 years ago seems like a turtle with arthritis today.
I remember booting up my brothers tricked out Amiga 1200 (68030, 120MB hd, 8MB? ram) a few years ago, it completely shattered my memories of how fast and awesome everything was on the Amiga (and my memories of how awesome and fast everything was came from my floppy-booted A500 - I don't want to try to boot that one up again)

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[AaronW]

Handling peak is not a problem if you augment with a smaller battery designed to supply the peak power and/or use a supercapacitor. There is no reason that the entire battery system must be the same battery type. I know Tesla has patents covering mixing metal-air batteries with other technologies to supplament the power during peak usage and for regeneration.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[petermgreen]

By "nuclear battery" I presume you mean a radioisotope thermal generator.

There are a few issues with those.

1: they provide power at a predetermined gradually reducing rate whether you use it or not. Fine for something like a pacemaker where power draw is likely relatively constant and tolerable for something like a spacecraft where the need for long duration would probablly justify combining a RTG with more conventional recharable batteries. Probablly not so good for a laptop or smartphone.
2: the material is expensive to produce and expensive to safely dispose of.
3: all the regulatory issues surrounding nuclear.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Anonymous Coward]

Galaxy Note II* - I get 2 days per full (as in from the wall) charge.

That's with mild to medium web browsing (the odd facts here and there), navigation apps for buses and the tubes, Ingress (battery hog) and bluetooth for music playback (about 2-3 hours a day).

I haven't got round to creating Tasker profiles to disable BT and GPS when not needed so could get more life out of it still.

*Ok, granted this is a rather large phone but it is a smart one.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[asola]

Just because the power density proves to be weak, these batteries will not be automatically excluded from EV applications.

If the practical energy density is 4 times of the current, it will be worth it to combine them with supercaps or smaller packs of high-power-density battery types.

Acceleration and regen will be handled by the supercap while average power-requirements satisfied by the sulfur battery. Naturally, the sulfur battery must be able to provide at least the average power needed but that may be solved by over-sizing the packs to an extent (providing more range than it would be strictly necessary).

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Immerman]

Ye gods, what a horrible thought. I've mostly used xcode on a 40" screen and it *still* felt camped and cluttered.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[dgatwood]

The parent has a rather exceptional use-case, normal people wouldn't be driving 20 hours round trip to visit their parents every weekend.

No, but most people will, statistically speaking, need to do an emergency trip at least once in their lives to pick up their kid who broke his leg at camp, to be there for a parent's final moments, or simply because they decided at the last minute to spend their three-day weekend in Florida. It isn't an everyday event, but it also isn't always an event you can plan for ahead of time, which means that a lot of people won't be willing to give up their gasoline-powered cars for all-electric vehicles—because they know that such situations do occur once in a while and that when such a situation arises, they won't want to be driving all around town trying to find a rental car company (or worse, a car dealer) to rent them a car on an emergency basis so that they can make that emergency trip.

This is what makes the electric car problematic. However, if all the car companies agreed on a standard connection scheme for external engine pods, the problem goes away. Each family would have one engine that once a year, they would put a quarter gallon of gasoline into, start up, and run until it is out of fuel. Such a scheme eliminates the biggest roadblock to electric car adoption—the impracticality of providing a battery that can handle those unusual long-distance trips.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cramoft]

"I really, really hope this becomes reality. Because I'd like to get an EV or a hybrid without breaking the bank, and it's my opinion that this is the last push needed." As long as Chevron doesn't buy the patent and refuses to allow auto makers to use it for EV or hybrids......

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Firethorn]

The problem with this:
1. It's potentially so huge that they wouldn't be able to afford it
2. The patent only lasts so long, then it's open for everyone.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[cramoft]

Chevron is so huge they can afford almost anything. They other issue: True, the patent only lasts so long, as a patent holder I understand that. The term of a patent is 17 years, in this day and age that's a very long time, long enough for technology to be prevented from evolving better ideas and hardware....

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Firethorn]

keyword: 'Almost'. The technology would be so huge as to be very, very expensive to lock up in that fashion, given the potential for huge profits from open release. In addition, at this point there's a real possibility of a political backlash that would force the technology out anyways, such as China simply repudiating the patent.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[tragedy]

Has anyone considered interim solutions, such as an optional small generator trailer for extended trips? That way you could have your short range electric car 90+ percent of the time, then adapt it for long-range on the rare occasions you need it. Actually owning one wouldn't be possible for city dwellers of ordinary means since they wouldn't have garages or driveways to keep them in, but there's no reason they couldn't be relatively cheap rentals. Pull up to a stand of them at a filling station, swipe your credit card to unlock it, hitch it to your car and plug in power/control cables.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[tragedy]

I'm pretty sure that the poster does get that. They also understand that many interactive applications that would have once responded essentially instantly in real-time can now crawl inexplicably due to how many layers they're sitting on.

As for not running or installing it... People often don't actually get that choice any more.

Re: ...and device runtime with stay the same

[Occams]

The guys who really know about battery life are the electric RC model airplane flyers because they regularly use batteries from full charge to exhaustion in one flight of a few minutes duration. They are using lithium polymer now and, depending on the motot/propeller combination are getting 5 to 10 minutes of flight from a fully charged battery.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Ivoch]

If you have root and want to invest a couple of bucks, you can get Tasker and its plugin, Secure Settings, and can make a very simple profile that automatically switches to the desired keyboard for the app you are currently using (and then back to the default one after you close the app, if you want). One of the many, many useful things you can do with Tasker. Alternatively, you might be able to do the same for free with Llama, but I haven't tried it and I don't know if Secure Settings works with it. But Tasker is way more powerful anyway.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Threni]

> Find the better power sources, then let ME decide what the hell to do with that
> power.

Well, yeah, there's this:

http://source.android.com/

You could start with cyanogenmod, see what they're up to.

Re:...and device runtime with stay the same

[Runaway1956]

Egg-zactly! The question is - why is it so hard for so many people to understand something so simple?

That is very energy dense

[turp182]

I use a 30 amp-hour 12 volt battery when camping, it's about 20 pounds (for fans, lights, bug zapper, , phone charger, electric blanket, inverter for laptop, etc). I've saved a ton of money not having to purchase D batteries and I can expect 5-8 years of use (hundreds of duty cycles).

"1200 milliampere-hours" is 1.2 amp hours. A battery of this type would weight 25 grams, or less than an ounce. If it's at 12 volts, which per the article (I read it!!!) doesn't sound like the case. But I bet a comparable 12 volt version would weight just ounces rather than pounds.

Battery tech is a primary lagging technology in my opinion.

Best hopes for this technology.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

You use an electric blanket while camping? Wuss.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Cenan]

Says the Anonymous Coward

Re:That is very energy dense

[SuricouRaven]

"Because lithium-sulfur batteries deliver about half the voltage of lithium-ion versions"

Li-ion is around 3.7V (+-0.4, depending on exact design). So this is about a 1.8V battery. So for a reasonable approximation, multiply by about 7 for a 12v version. That puts a 12v, 1.2AH version at 175g. Plus a little more for the casing. Not bad at all. Add case, and your 30AH battery can be replaced with a five-kilo battery. A bit heavy for a pocket, but but by much.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Muad'Dave]

The article states that the voltage of the LiS cell is 'about half' the voltage of a Li-ion, so that's about 2V/cell. You'd need at least 6* to make 12V, so that means a 12V, 30Ah battery would consist of 25 parallel sets of 7 cells in series and weigh in at 175g, or about 6 ounces - quite a weight savings.

*"12V" isn't really 12V exactly. It's more like 13.8 under charge and as low as 10.5-11 at discharge. Most gizmos expect the voltage toward the higher end, so using 7 cells isn't uncommon among DIY-ers (It allows you to use your devices longer with the battery still in the higher voltage sweet spot).

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not +-0.4V depending on design, lackwit, it's depending on CHARGE.

Re: That is very energy dense

[G-News.ch]

In Li-Ion batteries the average cell voltage is around 3-3.2V, so you need about 4 cells minimum for 12V. Arguably this would be the case for these new batteries too.

Re:That is very energy dense

[dfghjk]

"Plus a little more for the casing."

Sure, ignore what you don't understand. If you don't know it. it can't possibly matter, right?

Energy density is fine but it's the final product that matters. Packaging is a significant penalty for LiIon, it's important to know the difference here rather than pretend it's all rosy.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

From TFA: their voltage output is half that of lithuim ion (~3.7V), but the output current was an 8x increase. So a 30 amp-hour 12V equivalent would be roughly 25g to get 30amp-hour @ 1.8V. Then x8 is only 200g for a 30 amp-hour @ 12V (plus a casing and terminals of some kind)

Re:That is very energy dense

[Covalent]

The article says that the battery delivers about half of the voltage of a typical lithium ion battery (which is usually around 3.7V).

So 1.2Ah/g * 1.85V = 2.22Wh/g

Your battery is 30Ah/20 pounds * 12V = 18Wh/lb = .04Wh/g

So yes, this new battery is extremely energy dense. If you needed it to be 12V, though, you'd have to wire them in a series of 6, which would reduce the energy density by a factor of 6. Still a big improvement, but more like .35 Wh/g @ 12V, which is about 9 times better than your camping battery. Not bad.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

such hostility. don't you have some masturbation and crying to do

Re:That is very energy dense

[SuricouRaven]

It's +- a lot more than 0.4V depending on charge. One of the problems with li-ions is the substantial difference between charged and discharged voltages, requiring devices be able to operate efficiently right across the range.

I've seen li-ions/lipo rated from around 3.2 to 3.9 volts nominal, depending just upon the exact design of the cell - there are a few variations of the chemistry in use. They all function much the same, and the vast majority of cells are labeled 3.6 or 3.7.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

That puts a 12v, 1.2AH version at 175g

Huh? I fly my RC models with 11.1V (nominal, 12.6V when fully loaded), 1.2Ah lipos at 110g, including casing and wires.

Re:That is very energy dense

[alexander_686]

Hey, if he uses electricity during camping he is not a wuss. Lugging 30 pounds of batteries plus a electric blanket fans, lights, bug zapper, phone charger, electric blanket, inverter for laptop 40 miles into the backcountry is not for a wuss. I know I get bogged down when I have to carry a 20 pound Dutch oven in addition to my camping essentials.

Unless, of course, he is not going into the backcountry. Then he is a wuss.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Taibhsear]

I use a 30 amp-hour 12 volt battery when camping, it's about 20 pounds (for fans, lights, bug zapper, , phone charger, electric blanket, inverter for laptop, etc).

"Camping" /fingerquotes

Re:That is very energy dense

[h4rr4r]

Anyone know why we name batteries the way we do?
Car batteries for instance are normally charged at around 14V and under heavy load dip to 11v. NIMH AA float at 1.45v and are generally 1.2v loaded. Alkaline start at 1.6v and drop down very fast past 1.5v. They probably spend very little of their lives at 1.5v since their discharge curve sucks out loud. At high enough dishcarge currents they can drop from 1.6v to below 1.5v almost immediately.

At half the voltage we are talking 1.8v, that means some normally alkaline powered devices might be ok taking them. Assuming you can get them rolled into a AA shape. The LiOn cells are never good for that since they are 3.6v.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

He actually hauls all that with him when camping? A laptop? Why? Or are you talking about camping the american style where you put your tent right next to your huge car? Then turn on the fans, and sit in a well lit tent posting to facebook how it feels good to be close to the nature? :D

Not that there is actually anything wrong with that, it just seems so funny.

Re:That is very energy dense

[hlavac]

What? 1.2Ah per gram, thats like 7g for 12V version, not 175g!

Re:That is very energy dense

[aaarrrgggh]

No, it is a function of the battery chemistry. You have LiCoO2, LiMn2O4, LiFePO4, and others, each with different charge voltages. A good read: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

The article states that there's no danger of fire with ORNL batteries, unlike Li-ion which can explode or catch fire if improperly charged. I would imagine that the fact that these cells cannot catch fire would cause their packaging to be lighter.

Re:That is very energy dense

[quenda]

I use a 30 amp-hour 12 volt battery when camping, it's about 20 pounds

Thats awful. Current mainstream Li-Ion cells get around 200Wh/kg, so 2kg (4lb) to replace yours. (Like a 36-40 cell battery used in electric bikes.)

LiS rigged demos in the lab claim 1200x1.8V= 2000Wh/kg (10 x current consumer Li-Ion) but TFA also says 4x, so lets realistically hope for a one pound LiS battery to replace your boat-anchor. That'll be ten years after they first appear in mobile phones and tablets, assuming not too many explode.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming your math is correct, I am not impressed. I can right now purchase a Li-Poly battery that is 1300mAh 14.8v (4S) 20C battery that weighs 151g for $11.80 USD plus shipping. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=21118
The drawback to Li Poly is that it can catch fire if damaged too much. The only advantage would be if it's more stable.

 

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah. no one hauls that much useless crap into the backcountry, that's car camping style. In fact i've never known anyone to carry a 20lbs dutch oven into the backcountry if you're actually backpacking it in, if you're rafting sure. Maybe that's just me though and my crazy friends all of who guide or have guided large backpacking/climbing expeditions.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Overzeetop]

Loaded is loaded - you never get a perfect source. Even a concrete beam sags under load. 1.8v peak charge isn't too bad, and probably well within spec for AAA/AA/C/D batteries, and that's where the big deal may be. You can always run multiple cells in series to jack up the voltage, but it's much harder to cut the voltage in half to fit existing batteries. Isn't there an iron sulfate based battery that's 1.7-1.8V? The old Lithium AAs were 1/2 voltage at about 1.7x - I still have the same set in my Nikon camera I installed more than 10 years ago.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Zeromous]

Dude that's not camping. Leave your electricity and gas/propane at home. Please.

Re:That is very energy dense

[turp182]

I only bring the electric blanket when it's 10F or below. And it turns off after 30 minutes so it's only used when I am going to sleep (preheat the sleeping bag) and when I wake up (it is heaven in the morning).

Re:That is very energy dense

[Russ1642]

You take a battery camping? You obviously don't get it. The idea is to get away and go without the modern conveniences. I can think of only a few legitimate reasons to take a battery camping (medical conditions, emergency jump starter, maybe something else I've missed) but seriously a heated blanket and lights? Stay at home.

Re:That is very energy dense

[formfeed]

Dude that's not camping. Leave your electricity and gas/propane at home. Please.

I prefer a guy with a battery and a heat blanket over generators, boom boxes and campers running a A/C window unit.

(Yes. Sometimes you run into all of that even in a wooded campground for hikers.)

Re:That is very energy dense

[daid303]

Sounds like a lead-acid battery. Which is heavy, but cheap compared to lighter alternatives.

Re:That is very energy dense

[citizenr]

Just buy cheap 3S Lipo packs today instead of waiting 10 years, 30Ah will weight ~3Kg.

Re:That is very energy dense

[ChrisMaple]

you'd have to wire them in a series of 6, which would reduce the energy density by a factor of 6.

Current density yes. Energy density no, it remains unchanged by combining cells in series.

Re:That is very energy dense

[ChrisMaple]

He's probably using a lead-acid battery.

Re:That is very energy dense

[turp182]

I'm a car camper. And I do camp at a campground, but in a private area (no water and just vault toilets).

But I camp 35 nights a year (for the last 5 years), so a lot of trips are single night. I just like sleeping in a tent.

I have 3 year old twins, and they come along for about 20 of the nights. They certainly aren't back country ready (they can identify a handful of trees and leaves at this point). We do hike 2-3 miles each day they go with me.

I built my battery setup because I was tired of spending money on D batteries for a fan when the temps would stay in the 90s at night (in Missouri, high humidity). Then I realized I could add lots of other accessories such as lights, and an inverter allows me to write or code while camping (not much time for that otherwise, having 3 year old twins at home). Being able to charge RC cars on site (via the inverter) is fun as well, the kids can't get enough of the RC car.

When I go backpacking I don't bring any electronic stuff other than an emergency beacon (never leave home without it). It's been a couple of years though, I'll probably take the kids on a short trip next year when they are 4 (I might drag along an iPad to help time pass during a long afternoon).

I'll admit I'm a bit of a wuss, but I like my technology and I like camping, so I combine the two.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Muad'Dave]

They're named the way they are because of their chemistry. An alkaline cell has an open circuit voltage of 1.43V - close enough to the old Zinc-Carbon cell's OC voltage of 1.5V. A lead-acid cell has an open circuit voltage of about 2.1V. 6 of those in series makes 12-ish V. The cell potential between the anode and cathode materials determines their open circuit voltage (see this chart).

Here's a great FAQ on battery chemistries.

Re:That is very energy dense

[h4rr4r]

Take a voltage meter to one, an Alkaline cell new out of the box will be closer to 1.6 than 1.43.

If that chart is making these claims I would be very suspect of it. Besides open circuit voltage is a terrible way to name a battery, voltage at X amps would be way more useful.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Zeromous]

Yeah sometimes electrical blankets are a medical necessity I suppose. But FANS BUG ZAPPER? Laptop?

My family draws the line at Nintendo DS for the kids so long as they don't play it constantly.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

3mpg RV with 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, kitchen w/stove, microwave, laptop, satellite TV pulls up next to the lake and turns on the air conditioner. Peaks out the door with a digital camera and takes some nice pics to post on facebook captioned roughing it.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a 30 amp-hour 12 volt battery when camping, it's about 20 pounds (for fans, lights, bug zapper, , phone charger, electric blanket, inverter for laptop, etc)

I do not think that word means what you think it means...

Re:That is very energy dense

[Zalbik]

You take a battery camping? You obviously don't get it. The idea is to get away and go without the modern conveniences. I can think of only a few legitimate reasons to take a battery camping

Well thank you for that enlightened view on how other people can enjoy the same activities as you, with different purposes and/or opinions on how to go about enjoying those activities.

You complain about other people on the internet? You obviously don't get it. The idea of the internet is to encourage the free and open exchange of ideas. I can think of only a few legitimate reasons to complain about others on the internet (harassment, excessively inappropriate behavior, trolling, maybe something else I've missed), but seriously complaining about how someone chooses to go camping? Stop posting.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck are you taking all that shit with you to go camping? Do you have a satellite link to the internet, too? I think you're missing the entire point of camping: To get away from all that shit and just relax, enjoy nature. You're doing it wrong.

Re:That is very energy dense

[CAIMLAS]

That's not exclusive to lithium ion batteries, you may just notice it more because you care about those specs in the application that lions are used.

For instance, AA alkaline batteries are rated at 1.5V. The cheap ones are, in reality, about 1.4-1.5V (and much lower mAh). NiCad (or nickel metal) batteries are 1.2V but with a higher kwh (or amp hour, whatever) rating. These batteries all become less useful as their amp hour availability drops, and this is highly dependent on their application.

For instance, NiCad are almost entirely useless in digital cameras as they start out fully charged near the bottom of the voltage requirement of a digital camera; something like a lithium AA will maintain that higher ~2.5-3V range longer due to its higher mAh rating.

I've got a pocket flashlight which takes 14500 cells - basically a rechargable AA-sized lithium. The batteries are 3.6V and last a lot longer than a 1.5V battery in the same light - in part due to the fact that the flashlight has a regulator that drops the voltage to the LED, but also because of the much higher mAh. I believe the lithium batteries drop to about 2.8V before the regulator in the battery 'shuts it off'.

You'll see the same thing in automotive batteries, too: a 12V car battery that reads 10V or less still may be usable for that application if it's got a high amp hour/cold crank rating, and you may still get many hours of auxillary use out of a battery which is already unable to start your car.

Re:That is very energy dense

[NoImNotNineVolt]

I like to endomondo my backpacking trips, and I bring a 10Ah LiIon battery with me on my treks.
For me, the idea is not to get away and go without the modern conveniences.
It's to enjoy the outdoors, stay fit, explore new places, and foster stronger social bonds between myself and my backpacking friends.
I don't see how a battery infringes on my ability to do any of those things.

Re:That is very energy dense

[swb]

What's wrong with propane or butane stoves? Are we supposed to eat cold food or forage for berries? Or are we only supposed to eat over a campfire?

Most of the hard-core backpackers I know carry a butane stove (they're remarkably light) for heating water to rehydrate and heat food or make coffee.

And I'm pretty sure that its considered a lot more environmentally friendly than gathering firewood (illegal or at least prohibited in most State and National parks).

And then there's times where the fire danger is high where all wood fires are prohibited.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

You take a battery camping? You obviously don't get it. The idea is to get away and go without the modern conveniences.

Maybe that's your idea, mr dictator.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

I go camping to get closer to nature. What's wrong with modern conveniences as long as they aren't bothering those who don't want to enjoy them?

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry about your lawn, grandpa.

Re:That is very energy dense

[alexander_686]

I have backpacked a Dutch oven into the backcountry, but only once. Mostly it was a macho thing but it does make a very nice peach cobbler. Something about lugging that oven for 20 miles makes things test better.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you obviously don't get it. The point of camping for you includes going without modern conveniences. Perhaps the point of camping for him is to get to the one fishing spot he likes, and spend the weekend fishing instead of getting hassled by his wife. Or perhaps his wife insists on going with him and she's the one who can't stand the humidity and mosquitoes.

Of course, everybody knows the real legitimate reason to take a car battery camping is to power the electric motor in your motor boat (a battery and electric motor is a lot lighter than gas and a gas motor).

dom

Re:That is very energy dense

[Muad'Dave]

There sure seems to be a lot of variance in published OC voltages, I agree. It's handy to know the no-load OC voltage of batteries (so that you can spec other components in the system), but as you state it would also be interesting to know the V/I curve. Most manufacturers actually do publish that sort of data.

Re:That is very energy dense

[torkus]

Wh is total storage which is what you want to compare.

The 12v battery is a series of 6 2v cells anyhow. Lead-acid is inefficient in regards to energy/weight density. The benefit is the extremely high current it can provide and low cost (and simple recyclability).

If I was lugging 600Wh of energy camping I'd probably build something basec on Li-ion ... a dozen or so laptop batteries would weigh less than half that much and provide as much storage. Would need a more complicated charger though.

Re:That is very energy dense

[dywolf]

not everyone practices lightweight or ultralite weight packing when they go outdoors. ive actually known people who packed upwards of 70lbs of gear into their pack. i even did it myself in teh military (lil different there of course). and they go decent distances. they're also much more exhausted, and tire out faster. few of them go for extreme long distances though; msot everyone becomes a light weighter after attempting anything over 50 miles.

me, i top out around 23lbs packed away, ~30lbs total on my body (add in clothing being worn, and water). the lower the weight, the farther i can go, faster, and less tired at the end. or looked at another way: the more time i can spend dawdling and sight seeing, and still meet my destination targets.

Re:That is very energy dense

[dywolf]

on long hikes (>200 miles or > 2 weeks) its common to take a phone/camera and solar charger. especially for thru hikers (whole 2000 mile trail to canada), disappearing for a few weeks to 6 months without word tends to make our wives worry a bit. its good to let em know every now and then that you havent been eaten by a bear.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Agent0013]

Have you seen the Biolite Stove? It runs on regular sticks and makes electricity from a peltier junction that runs the vortex fan to increase the heat and charges a USB port. Pretty awesome, I want one!

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

> but seriously complaining about how someone chooses to go camping? Stop posting.

So how, exactly, does complaining about someone else's complaints about camping, and telling that person to stop posting, encourage the "free and open exchange of ideas"? It doesn't seem to be one of the items on your list of legitimate reasons to complain...

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Wood. Make a campfire.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude that's not camping. Leave your electricity and gas/propane at home. Please.

What the frack is wrong with you, man? He said that he has little kids, and he takes them camping, and the electric conveniences help make that work. Also, he sometimes takes work with him, allowing him to go camping rather than staying at home with the work.

Since you are passing judgement on him and his actions, enlighten us all. Should he stop taking his kids camping, and instead dump them with a babysitter? Should he just not camp at all until the kids are older? Should he keep doing what he's doing but just be super careful to never call it "camping" when you are around? Just what do you authorize him to do here?

I'm going to take a page out of your book:

Dude it's not cool to pass judgement on others. Leave the guy alone. Please.

Re:That is very energy dense

[turp182]

I have seen those, a bit pricey given I have no opportunity to backpack these days. Once the kids are 5-6 and can go on shorter trips I might have to get one.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont mistake camping for backpacking. Camping is all about relaxing in the outdoors with the caveat that ease of access to luxuries typically equates to proximity to society. Backpacking offers seclusion and relatively inaccessible vistas at the expense of most creature comforts.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, go camping to get away from judgmental assholes who are constantly telling me I'm doing things wrong.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Sertis]

I think they mentioned it was half the voltage of LiIon so maybe around 1.8v? Still pretty nice, but we'll see what the charging behavior is like before I get too excited.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

For instance, NiCad are almost entirely useless in digital cameras as they start out fully charged near the bottom of the voltage requirement of a digital camera; something like a lithium AA will maintain that higher ~2.5-3V range longer due to its higher mAh rating.

You're confused. Digital cameras which take AA batteries run fine off NiMH, which has the same 1.2V nominal cell voltage as NiCd. (NiMH is essentially a newer version of NiCd chemistry with higher energy density.) Are you thinking of how alkaline AAs are totally inadequate for digital cameras?

As for lithium AA, for compatibility's sake these mostly use alternate lithium chemistries with a nominal voltage of about 1.5V under load, for example Energizer's lithium iron disulfide chemistry:

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf

Most devices designed to accept AA batteries will break if the cell voltage is over 3V instead of ~1.5V.

What determines a battery chemistry's suitability for digital cameras is mostly internal parasitic resistance. It turns out that even common alkalines have quite good mAh ratings (alkaline AAs are about 3000 mAh, about the same as a high grade NiMH AA, and the alkaline is actually storing more energy since its cell voltage is higher). However, alkalines also have relatively high internal resistance. This is not an issue when draining the battery at slow rates (low current), but at high rates it becomes a problem. The power dissipated in a resistor is P = R * I^2 (I is current). For high current applications any parasitic resistance R must be very low, or the battery will divert a lot of its stored energy to heating itself instead of powering the load. Another problem is that the voltage drop through that internal resistor is equal to I * R, so load will see a significant voltage droop too. If it can't handle operation at reduced voltage it may not be able to use the battery at all.

Digital cameras tend to have very high peak current demands while actively taking pictures. This is why alkalines don't work so well in them. NiCd? Those actually have extremely low internal resistance. Lower than NiMH, and lower than most lithium chemistries (lithium chemistries are usually quite low themselves). The only problem with NiCd for this application is relatively low capacity -- usually at most 1500 mAh in a single AA. Since the rise of digital cameras roughly coincided with the rise of NiMH AA cells, nobody ever used them in digital cameras much. Doesn't mean you can't if you want to. (Of course, in practice most mass market cameras have moved to lithium ion battery packs in non-AA form factors.)

Re:That is very energy dense

[Namarrgon]

Indeed - 175g is around what a 30Ah 12V battery would weigh (sans casing etc). A complete 5kg battery would probably store 25x that, or over 700Ah.

It's also interesting to note some of the performance graphs for this electrolyte. Figure S2 shows capacity as beginning to level off at 1200mAh/g after 300 cycles - it appears to start off with over 6x that.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

Very good reply, but you forgot to call him a name at the end.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here...

Re:That is very energy dense

[Muad'Dave]

His math is not correct - 175g is for a 30Ah, 7-cell 14.8-ishV nominal battery. That's 23x the capacity of your battery with only a 25g (16%) increase in mass.

Re:That is very energy dense

[Muad'Dave]

I must be missing something - that graph seems to indicate the density levels off at 12 mAh/g, not 1200. Also, it's confusing that they're using an absolute unit for capacity but claim it's been 'normalized to carbon' in the caption. Shouldn't the capacity axis unit be a percentage of carbon's capacity?

Re:That is very energy dense

[Anonymous Coward]

So how, exactly, does complaining about someone else's complaints about camping, and telling that person to stop posting, encourage the "free and open exchange of ideas"? It doesn't seem to be one of the items on your list of legitimate reasons to complain...

Why is it that AC's don't understand irony?

Is it the same problem that keeps them from figuring out how to use the "Login" button?

- Zalbik

Lithium air

[Twinbee]

Off-topic, but can Lithium air be used for laptops/gadgets etc. too, or only for cars? No one ever seems to say.

Re:Lithium air

[Areyoukiddingme]

Yes. You'd have to design the case and battery compartment such that there's sufficient flow of air required to supply the oxygen needed to maintain the reaction, but that's easy enough.

But you don't want lithium air for your laptops and gadgets. It's not rechargeable. The chemical reaction isn't conventionally reversible. (Which is to say, it can be reversed, but you have to send it back to the refinery and remanufacture the material.)

Re:Lithium air

[Twinbee]

Thanks, how would cars overcome the limitation? Is there some mechanism to recharge the lithium air battery in a car?

Re:Lithium air

[Areyoukiddingme]

No, not in cars either. It's just that cars are large enough to accommodate a very large battery, which would let you travel far enough between replacements that it might be worth the inconvenience of swapping out batteries.

If a conventionally rechargeable battery is developed that matches the energy density of lithium air, using lithium air would be an environmental travesty, since the energy required to refine the material is substantially greater than the energy recovered during operation (i.e. it's quite an inefficient battery), but so far that hasn't happened and so far nothing looks like it will get there any time soon, which is why people are seriously discussing lithium air car battery packs.

Personally I think it's fairly obvious that no one is going to make a lithium air car battery pack. It's widely acknowledged that anything which doesn't meet or beat the convenience and ease of use of gasoline internal combustion engines isn't going to go anywhere in the marketplace, at least until gasoline is no longer available at prices poor and middle class people can actually afford. Lithium air definitely doesn't meet that criteria for convenience.

Re:Lithium air

[Twinbee]

Disappointing to hear Lithium air has that limitation. In a way, I almost hope it doesn't make it, because I'd rather a more universal standard be established to help propel all markets including laptops and phones. I happen to think Telsa will help get battery cars good and cheap enough for low to middle class budgets relatively soon, and part of the success they've already had is because they use off-the-shelf LI which could in theory be used for anything.

But do they explode?

[telchine]

Lithium and Sulphur! Will these explode more or less violently than Li-ion batteries?

Re:But do they explode?

[Cenan]

Not a chemist, but the article specifically points out that the materials are not flammable, so I guess no?

Re:But do they explode?

[ssam]

more smellily for sure

Re:But do they explode?

[Sockatume]

What explodes in an li-ion battery failure is usually the flammable electrolyte, fed oxygen by cathode decomposition products, and not lithium itself.

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

SOLIDS rarely explode - it's the liquid-to-gaseous issue that makes things go BOOM with a spark

Re:But do they explode?

[Mystakaphoros]

more smellily for sure

Oh, you discovered the "leakage alert" feature!

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

Less but they will smell like farts.

Re:But do they explode?

[lxs]

Also not a chemist, but if it can store more energy than an equivalent lithium ion battery then my guess is yes.

Re:But do they explode?

[jbengt]

SOLIDS rarely explode . . .

<sarcasm>Yes, that's why gunpowder is made of liquids.</sarcasm>

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't wait until they start making batteries from potassium nitrate, sulfur, and carbon.

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

solid electrolyte in the new battery, liquid electrolyte in the old ones.

Solids are more stable then liquids, which explains the non flammability thing

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty much all batteries types I have used over the years let go at some point. Due to whatever reason. Can you imagine them smell? Bleeeech.

Re:But do they explode?

[lxs]

Try shorting that battery and watch how quickly that electrolyte turns liquid.

Re:But do they explode?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typically a battery short happens in batteries with liquid electrolytes due to plating and dendrite formation. Solid electrolytes are very difficult to short since the conductive Li metal would be competing with the solid electrolytes for space during the process of dendrite formation.

Re:But do they explode?

[formfeed]

SOLIDS rarely explode . . .

<sarcasm>Yes, that's why gunpowder is made of liquids.</sarcasm>

With "rarely" AC meant "only once"

Re:But do they explode?

[ArsenneLupin]

... and how quickly the sulfur does its thing. Hey, it's the material that matches are made of!

Re:But do they explode?

[ArsenneLupin]

It's like mushrooms. All mushrooms are edible. But some only once...

Re:But do they explode?

[ArsenneLupin]

SOLIDS rarely explode

Yes, even the TSA knows this. There's a reason they ban large quantities of fluids, but don't object to much larger quantities of solids.

Re:But do they explode?

[CAIMLAS]

Guess what? Lithium batteries aren't flammable either. What they are is is explosively volatile. There is a difference.

Neither sulfur nor lithium respond all too well with water. I can't imagine these would be well suited for aquatic purposes.

Re:But do they explode?

[Alioth]

It doesn't matter what the battery is made of - batteries capable of a very high discharge current and water do not usually mix. Dumping a Li-Ion battery in water doesn't make it explode because the lithium reacts. The lithium is already in an ionic compound which on its own does not react with water. It's the very high current that can pass, especially in salty water, that causes the problem. No battery is suitable for aquatic purposes unless they are well waterproofed or are unable to deliver a high current.

Biobattery

[Anonymous Coward]

Biobatteries look interesting. In the future, laptops will be powered by Gatorade, just like the hackers using them.

What about other key parameters?

[JaredOfEuropa]

This is an impressive achievement, and interesting even if they report a relatively low (300) number of charge cycles. Too bad the article doesn't mention some other parameters:
- The article mentions power density "after 300 charging cycles". Is that the limit, or does it actually last for more cycles, and how fast does it drop off?
- How well do these batteries retain a charge? Li-Ion is quite good on that score; if I leave my cordless drill of the charger, it'll still be ready for use after a year.
- How well do these batteries deal with half-cycles (recharge when only half empty)? Is there a memory effect?
- What is the max rate of charge?

Re:What about other key parameters?

[MrMickS]

This is an impressive achievement, and interesting even if they report a relatively low (300) number of charge cycles. Too bad the article doesn't mention some other parameters:

- The article mentions power density "after 300 charging cycles". Is that the limit, or does it actually last for more cycles, and how fast does it drop off?

I recently replaced the battery in my 2008 model Macbook Pro. It was the original battery and had done 450 charging cycles. The run time was down to about a third of the new battery I replaced it with. So from a computer use 300 cycles is a good measure.

Re:What about other key parameters?

[Anonymous Coward]

a relatively low (300) number of charge cycles

Not low. If a battery can be charged only up to 300 times but has 10x times the capacity of a smaller battery, then its number of cycles translates to 300x10 = 3000 cycles of that smaller battery.

Re:What about other key parameters?

[Immerman]

Well, 4x the capacity in this case, so only 1200 equivalent cycles. That's not the big issue though.

The big issue is that you are assuming that your usage patterns remain the same. And therein lies the rub - typically you want more battery capacity in order to enable greater use - if your laptop battery lasted 4x as long you probably wouldn't bother to plug it in unless doing so were really convenient, in fact with a 16-hour laptop battery I bet most people wouldn't even take their power cord with them during the day. And so you run through those cycles much quicker.

Re:What about other key parameters?

[torkus]

How apple counts charge cycles is not entirely accurate. I don't know the exact metric but it's definitely NOT a simple count of how many times the batter was connected to a charger. This is based on personal experience and troubleshooting with an apple "genius"

Also, deep discharge, storing fully discharged, or repeated partial charge cycles has a significant impact on capacity decline for Li-ion. A good Li-ion should provide more cycles than that though.

Re:What about other key parameters?

[Namarrgon]

These diagrams might help answer your first question at least.

Re:What about other key parameters?

[Alioth]

It's not just charging cycles. An unused lithium ion battery stored at full charge loses 20% of capacity a year. So even if you'd hardly used that battery you'd still have ended up replacing it. (You can make a Li-Ion last much longer by storing it at a lower charge state, or keeping it cool. If you have a loose Li-Ion spare battery, putting it in the fridge when you're not going to use it for a long while can reduce this loss of capacity tremendously).

Hail Satan, who powers our many useful devices!

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

Whoa! Did you just eat eggs or something?

[pr0t0]

No, sorry. I just pulled my phone off the charger.

Must targeted at Android devices

[axonis]

Solves their depression AND their BAD diet

Re: Are these marketing guys egging us on ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you mentally ill?

Aviation uses?

[srbell]

With a higher energy density, and if the size and weight are low, it could help make electric motors a viable option for light general aviation aircraft. I'd love to see this work out.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

I'm sure Elon Musk is paying attention to this. He thinks an electric jet would be possible, and this would make that a whole lot easier to achieve. If they can commercialize it in the next couple of years, it would also be just in time to help Tesla develop its next-gen "affordable" EV. I wouldn't be surprised if he and/or Tesla invest in whatever company gets to bring this tech to market.

Re:Aviation uses?

[alexander_686]

A electric jet is probably not in the cards. I think you mean electric airplane. Those do exist today, but they tend to be experiential or for the hobby market.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

No, he actually means a jet. In fact, he thinks he can build a supersonic electric jet, and has said so many times.

Re:Aviation uses?

[Anonymous Coward]

If they can commercialize it in the next couple of years, it would also be just in time to help Tesla develop its next-gen "affordable" EV.

Stop that! I'm about to drop dead from laughing too hard!

There is no fricking way that a battery technology in this kind of shape will enter a mass-produced automobile in the next TEN years, never mind two. Portable devices, I'd give 7-8 years if everything goes well. Fifteen years for automobiles, minimum.

Let's count the issues here. The battery is tested only at 60 degrees C, which implies that its performance must suck at room temperature (not surprising--solid batteries tend to do really badly at low temperatures). The battery is showing horrendous wear--75% wear after 300 cycles--good enough to show promise, but nowhere near good enough to be considered for commercialization. The charge rate being tested is 1/10C. which probably means that the battery cannot be usefully charged/discharged unless you take at least 10 hours to bring it up to full charge.

All of these are incredibly hard issues, and only after solve all of them can you get down to the manufacturing process engineering. I'd be impressed if they get to this stage in six years. Then you get to manufacture, test, integrate--and finally you get your first shipping product. Automobiles are a different beast altogether, requiring much more testing, much bigger manufacturing capacity, different control mechanism, looooong design lead time--so add another five years.

Re:Aviation uses?

[Graydyn Young]

This tech could make the Tesla Roadster a whole lot sexier too. Maybe even surpassing regular vehicles in horsepower/weight ratios? I would love to see a EV that beats current sports car performance.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

I stand corrected, thanks. Perhaps I got an over-optimistic impression from the recent progress in liquid-metal batteries.

Re:Aviation uses?

[MobyDisk]

Electric == opposite of jet. A jet is "A rapid stream of liquid or gas forced out of a small opening." So if it is electric, what is it spewing out of the back? An ion drive is about the closest thing I can think of that might be called a "jet" but is kinda sorta electric. Unfortunately, that article has almost no information whatsoever. Perhaps by "jet" he meant "really fast plane" that actually isn't a jet?

Re:Aviation uses?

[gl4ss]

Electric == opposite of jet. A jet is "A rapid stream of liquid or gas forced out of a small opening." So if it is electric, what is it spewing out of the back? An ion drive is about the closest thing I can think of that might be called a "jet" but is kinda sorta electric. Unfortunately, that article has almost no information whatsoever. Perhaps by "jet" he meant "really fast plane" that actually isn't a jet?

it's musk.
that's what he meant. maybe if you filled a concorde with batteries... he probably just says that stuff drunk or to people who don't ask how far the plane would fly.

because isn't the power required somewhere in tens of thousands of kw's at least? I mean, it's not really the sort of problem that doubling battery density would really solve it.

Re:Aviation uses?

[kheldan]

electric jet

Wouldn't that actually be an 'electric ducted-fan'?

Re:Aviation uses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jets usually refer to a turbine engine, which is based on a combustion chamber... something that is not needed in an EV. However, in it's simplest form, a jet is a stream of high speed air.

Should be interesting. The dude's got a track record.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

A rapid stream of liquid or gas forced out of a small opening.

Yeah, and...? If I run a big fan through a small "Venturi" opening, I can get supersonic. What hair are you trying to split here?

Re:Aviation uses?

[Areyoukiddingme]

Jets push mostly air out of the engine. That's the "gas being forced out of a small opening." An electric jet would continue to push air, but rather than combusting something to get the turbine to spin, it would use electricity.

You could also build an electric propeller plane, of course, which also pushes air. It just doesn't have the requisite small opening to be a jet.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

Maybe I'm wrong, but as I understand it, electric motors have WAY more torque than any kind of ICE. The Tesla Roadster already has better performance than most high-end sports cars. Even the Model S is competitive in that range. With electric vehicles, acceleration is the least of your worries.

Re:Aviation uses?

[taiwanjohn]

Yeah, I reckon so. I have no "crystal ball" insight on Elon's mind, I'm just repeating what I've heard him say.

Re:Aviation uses?

[dywolf]

hes probably think ing terms of a turbofan, not a turbojet. the turbofan is essentially a fanprop on the front of a turbojet, using the jet to provide power for the fan without reduction gears (the primary difference between a turbofan and turboshaft/turboprops), so the jet core provides only a fraction of the total thrust, most of it coming from the fan.

so an electic turbojet...no.
an electic fan? sure, its possible... ...if not practical. ducted fans are not new, but they tend to be only as efficient as regular props at low speed. they become useful at higher speeds when mated with turbojet cores, because they can spin faster than props, and continue functioning at much higher speeds and higher RPMs.

Re:Aviation uses?

[jimbolauski]

Jets engines work by sucking in air, mixing the air with fuel, igniting the fuel air mixture, and pushing with the exhaust. If you replace the fuel with an electric motor it's not a jet it's a fancy prop engine with covers over the prop. Unless his plan is to vaporize water to achieve the exhaust force associated with a jet I don't see how you can call it a jet. I don't have the background to know if boiling water is a good use of energy or if turning props is significantly more efficient (which I suspect).

Re:Aviation uses?

[Alioth]

I have an electric jet. OK, so it's a model, but what it spews out the back is exactly what the same model would spew out the back if it were fitted with a turbine engine minus a bit of CO2 and unburned hydrocarbons. Normally we call them a "ducted fan" rather than a jet, but what comes out the tailpipe is a jet of fast moving air (reaction mass) which propels the aircraft forwards. Modern airliners also use ducted fans, but they are powered by a turbine engine.

Hopefully cheaper also

[Anonymous Coward]

Since it's using sulfur, hopefully this can also help lower the cost per hour as well as longer life.

Keep in mind that the 300 charge cycle the mention isn't the limit for the battery, it's talking about how well it still works after 300 cycles compared to lithium batteries. I'll be interested to hear what it's full life is as well.

Let that Desi kid loose on this technology.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Some Indian American teen won the intel science prize for charging a cell phone in 20 seconds. Let her loose on this technology and get that Tesla S model recharged in 5 minutes for 200 mile range! Now we are talking, baby!

But of course, all she had was just a super capacitor. It probably does not scale easily to vehicle sizes and anyway it is not an electro-chemical reaction based "battery."

Re:Let that Desi kid loose on this technology.

[torkus]

I hope there was more to it than that...because if that's all it takes to win the intel science prize that contest is in pretty sad shape.

Super capacitors are more akin to high-discharge, very low capacity batteries with very little 'wear' factor.

When these explode ...

[Skapare]

... that should be quite a bad smell.

Re:When these explode ...

[ThePhilips]

... but only for a short time, before user faints from the toxic smoke.

source of this invention is obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder who is behind this. I don't know, could it be.... Satan?

Renewables

[xcsi]

Hopefully this new sulfur based battery can also be a basis for the storage of energy from renewable energy sources, nice to see that things go on.

Re:Renewables

[Sockatume]

The beauty of storage batteries for power generation is that they don't need to be very high-capacity per unit volume or mass. They're not going anywhere, so you can go with something cheap but bulky.

Re:Renewables

[Anonymous Coward]

Like reflow batteries.

Re:Renewables

[Firethorn]

Well, you also want them to be efficient - lithium's ~90% charge efficiency vs lead-acid's 75% can justify quite a bit of additional expense, especially when combined with things like better deep cycle performance. It's just that LiIon type batteries have a relatively long way to go to compete with lead's shear cheapness.

But yeah, cost per kwh of storage is the primary concern.

BeelzeBATT!

[tippe]

Will these explode more or less violently than Li-ion batteries?

More! And when it does explode and you've got a flaming smartphone in your pocket, it will both feel *and smell* like you're in hell!

By the way, I hereby claim the name "BeelzeBATT" (TM).

Brimstone

[Mystakaphoros]

You know, I wouldn't mind it if my laptop smelled like fire and brimstone when I was grading papers. It would kind of help get me in the mood.

Re:Brimstone

[Anonymous Coward]

To help set the mood poke a hole in the battery and add water.

Re:Brimstone

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I wouldn't mind it if my laptop smelled like fire and brimstone when I was grading papers. It would kind of help get me in the mood.

This really just made me think of my old TA engaging in foreplay with a big stack of papers.

Up all night

[Anonymous Coward]

I was up all night waiting for these batteries. And until I get one I'll continue to be LiS-less. ;)

but when the sulfur is mined to make black dragons

[Joe_Dragon]

but when the sulfur is mined to make black dragons not much will be left for battery's.

Not enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are cheap micro-nuclear batteries?
Unlike chemical batteries that can violently explode, it doesn't happen with nuclear materials.
And what happened with fuel cells?
We still don't have batteries that last forever, while the capacity is also stuck.
But at least we get more efficient devices. They also produce less heat and don't need as cooling as desktop PCs.

More practical questions

[RogueWarrior65]

1) What's the sustained and peak current delivery? 10C? 25C? 50C?
2) Do you have to balance multi-cell packs like you do with current LiPo?
3) Can you use existing charging methods?
4) How much do they cost?

FTW

[Anonymous Coward]

Nuclear Batteries

Why not quoting in energy units

[GlobalEcho]

It drives me crazy that battery capacity is quoted everywhere in milliamp-hours (mAh)! Why can't everyone work in joules, so that we needn't constantly convert for voltage?

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[dywolf]

because a lot of devices are rated in amp draw, thus allowing a simple calculation as to expected runtime and/or required number of batteries needed?

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[BranMan]

Because everything is rated in current draw - this phone uses 15 mA of current. With a battery that has 1500 mAh, that will run for 100 hours (nominally). WTF can you tell from a battery that has 33000 joules? You'd need to know the voltage again! And still have to do math!

People use mAh because it's useful for what people want to know.

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the way those things are designed joules by themselves are more useless than milliamp-hours by themselves.And you don't want to put them together without some sort of curve or three And then you'll have two ratings, curves, and a lot of confused public and journalists.

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[Anonymous Coward]

Because everything is rated in current draw - this phone uses 15 mA of current.

Find me even one phone whose public specs state that it draws X milliamps of current. (Hint: don't waste your time. You won't find this information.)

With a battery that has 1500 mAh, that will run for 100 hours (nominally). WTF can you tell from a battery that has 33000 joules? You'd need to know the voltage again! And still have to do math!

That's a stupid complaint given that you have to know the voltage and do math to figure out what 1500mAh actually means.

People use mAh because it's useful for what people want to know.

No, people quote it because it's customary in some ill-informed circles, not because it's the most useful number to quote. Energy units like joules (or my preference, Wh; 1Wh equals 3600J) roll both mAh and voltage into one number which can be directly compared across battery packs. If you tell me two different packs are both 1000 mAh, I have no fucking idea which one's bigger. If you tell me one's 10Wh and the other's 20Wh, I know that one has twice the capacity. Assuming efficient power supplies which use switch-mode DC-DC conversion, which is basically always true for devices like smartphones, tablets, or laptop computers, the larger battery can be expected to power the same load for twice as long, or power twice the load for the same time, and so forth. That's useful information.

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the way those things are designed joules by themselves are more useless than milliamp-hours by themselves.

As an actual engineer who has designed a battery-powered thing I can assure you that this is not true at all. The only circumstance in which this might be true is when considering a device which uses linear regulators (or equivalent) to step battery voltages down to working voltages. Meaning the power supply can't trade voltage for current, or vice versa, and is thus doomed to throw away a ton of energy as heat. In that circumstance all you'd care about is the amp-hour rating, because battery life would track amp hours quite nicely. But in real battery powered high tech devices (smartphones, laptops, etc.) nobody designs power supplies that way. Linear regulation is bloody inefficient, you'd be throwing away battery life for no good reason.

Joules are a far more useful unit. Watt-hours (or milliwatt-hours), even better. (They're equivalent to joules, but on a scale that's more easy to use when trying to figure out how long a load of X watts will last on a full charge, and so forth.) And guess what? Better device manufacturers do list battery capacities in watt-hours.

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[BranMan]

Now THATS a useful comment. Hats of to you sir, hiding behind something back there. Not sure why.

Re:Why not quoting in energy units

[stdarg]

I think the real reason is it's easier for battery manufacturers to imply that their batteries have more capacity by having a bigger number.

For instance, I bought an external battery for my phone with a usb outlet. The Amazon page said 10,000mAh capacity! Great. So I get it. Turns out it's 10k mAh at 3.3V, whereas USB (the ONLY output option from the charger) is 5V (and this battery does produce the full 5V output required, not 3.3V). It really should have been advertised as 6,000mAh. If they're gonna lie to that extent why not say 33k mAh (at 1V). Well I'm sure some battery seller out there is doing that.. and they're not even wrong, just misleading to people who have been programmed that battery capacity = mAh.

4 times the energy density...

[gestalt_n_pepper]

So, you're saying that we now have a battery that's got 1/50th of the energy density of an equivalent volume of petroleum.

Progress. Of a sort. I guess.

Re:4 times the energy density...

[afidel]

Diesel: ~46MJ/kg *.45 (typical diesel engine efficiency) = 20.7 MJ/kg usable
LiPo ~.9MJ/kg
This battery tech ~3.6MJ/kg, so about one fifth the usable density of diesel which is pretty damn good for a recharge source!

Re:4 times the energy density...

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Thank you. I stand corrected and happily so since decent battery technology is probably the one thing that may save our collective bacon. Do you happen to know if this thing is rechargable?

Re:4 times the energy density...

[afidel]

Uh, the summary mentions that they took their density measurements after 300 charge/discharge cycles, so yes =)

Use for waste sulfur

[abarrow]

Considering the amount of sulfur that is being generated by oil production these days (http://folc.ca/sulphur_storage/waste_sulphur.htm) this could be a very good thing. ...but of course, ultimately, the sulfur needs to go somewhere.

Re:Use for waste sulfur

[Tweezak]

You can think about it just like diesel and propane. Both were waste by products of petroleum production and used to just be burned off until someone figured out a use for them. Now they are both more expensive than gasoline.

Expect the oil companies to start gouging us for sulfur too.

Not to mention all the new sulfur mines that will be opened up to meet world demand for batteries.

Awesome. I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

...till Apple invents this.

It needs a name...SLi batteries.

[DrPeper]

Ok so we have nickel cadmium (NiCd), nickel metal hydride (NiMH), lithium ion (Li-ion), and lithium ion polymer (Li-poly) batteries, so this would make Sulfur Lithium (SLi) batteries. Actually that's a pretty cool name.

Re:It needs a name...SLi batteries.

[DrPeper]

And I have $5 that says this technology is never seen again.

amp-hours is not energy density

[Ioldanach]

Without volts, amp-hours is completely meaningless. If I have a process that can create a battery that stores 1.2Ah/g at 0.3V and I'm trying to beat a process that stores 0.3Ah/g at 1.2V then I've done nothing useful. Both store 360mWh/g (1296mWh/joules). In fact, if you look at phys.org you'll find that the fourfold increase is not in Ah/g, but in J/g. It actually has an eightfold increase in Ah/g but the voltage drops by half. So the article is right, but does a really bad job of explaining why.

Seriously

[Anonymous Coward]

FTFS:

More work needs to be done, but one would think this new technology could have applications in renewable energy storage, electric cars, and consumer electronics.

Thanks for the riveting summary, Captain Obvious. I would have never expected an improvement in battery technology to have applications in areas where batteries are used.

Not the same

[bussdriver]

Gas is oxidized. A totally different chemical process. No comparison. When they get working AIR batteries figured out then you are getting closer; but it is still different because 1 is a BATTERY and the other is just a controlled explosion.

If you are going to be that way, why hasn't petroleum progressed? They have done shit to make it perform better. There is way more energy density in nitroglycerin... or nuclear fuel rods... Why don't we have personal reactors like they talked about in the 40s? Must be a conspiracy to get us to buy more oil... ;-)

You never used a mid-90s laptop, did ya?

[Anonymous Coward]

We have a HELL of a lot more "runtime" today my friend.

So when these things assplode ...

[Anonymous Coward]

will it smell like farts?

What is the life on this battery?

[Anonymous Coward]

Battery life is getting worse all the time - sure it can output a lot of power per gram, but how many times can I recharge this battery
before it stop working?

Perfectly timed...

[Taelron]

Oh sure, now that I have finished replacing all of my Ryobi power tools with the new Lithion-ION set because the old tools cant use the new batteries, they come out with another new battery tech to force me to buy all new power tools again...

4x energy density by weight is nice

[viperidaenz]

But what about volume? Weight is good for cars, planes and large things. But for consumer devices volume is more important.
They're also half the voltage, which means you need twice the number of cells, which means twice the amount of battery management to balance each cell - that bit increases cost and complexity and isn't good for the car industry, which like having many hundreds of volts to power their motors to keep the current draw down. The Tesla roadster has a 375V battery.

Not Survival Training

[snadrus]

I carry the JetBoil because it's the safest, lightest, most reliable food option. And I'm considering UV light water purifiers over hiking in a lot more water. Why do I camp?
To enjoy the sights & sounds nature & avoid crowds. Why am I reducing even further? So I can bring my toddlers out there to enjoy the same thing.
Feeling hungry, painful experiences aren't something I schedule for: it's not survival training.

About time

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had a theory for a while that while the Mil continued to purchase Lithium and other current battery tech for our overseas operations we wouldn't see any technological leap in batteries until combat operations were significantly reduced.
Over the years there were many innovations that never seemed to bear fruit, but this seems to confirm my thoughts, with the downturn on the purchases of the current tech the next cash cow will be, finally, the better longer batteries for tech et al which capabilities to produce have been here for a while now.
I don't think this will be the only "new" battery tech to be suddenly discovered in the coming months and years.
I also think that it is not due to evil intent or anything, but when you are running at max capacity to supply current demand, why or how would you innovate or change the process?

Gotta Be a Liberal Media Lie!

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Government doing A GOOD THING? Can't possibly be true; I din't think /. was part of the liberal media, but wrong again, I suppose.

I wonder how the IBM Battery 500 project will react. Their performance goal was not too far off this.

Which is better?

[crhylove]

So would this be more or less energy dense as a storage medium than graphene ultracapacitors?

http://cleantechnica.com/2013/03/12/a-breakthrough-in-energy-storage-graphene-micro-supercapacitors/

What's the memory like? How many charge cycles are they good for?

Or should I just start working on building my portable micro thorium salt reactor?

Cell phone thickness

[Firethorn]

Due to various factors I ended up with a motorola atrix. I kill the thing regularly in under 4 hours(I'm a heavy user, I'll fully admit), and I don't even get to enjoy 'thin' because I'm tough on the things so I have it in an otterbox. It's over half an inch thick overall.

I'd rather trade some of the armor for a thicker, larger base battery along with integrating some amount of the armor directly into the phone.

There's plenty of people out there, it's just that even though I do a lot of research, I always seem to get ambused by something. When I bought my truck, for example, it was TPMS. I normally run two sets of rims - winter and summer tires. Rims aren't that much if you're buying cheap ones, and when the tire shop wants $50 to change out the tires...

Ever heard of Tesla's superchargers?

[Firethorn]

Currently, they are out of reach for a one-day-trip on an all-electric car, I would have to stay overnight and recharge the car to get there.

Okay, your brother is 660 miles away. That's about how far my parents were away from me before I moved to Alaska and they moved to Florida(previously Colorado/North Dakota and Nebraska, I move a lot). 660 miles in a day is a long, hard drive, at least for me.

Still, most EV's are capable of charging much faster than 'overnight' at specialized charging stations, such as Tesla's "Superchargers". They're advertised as being about to provide 3 hours of driving with 20 minutes of charging@120kW

Let's say you have a Tesla Model S with the 85kwh battery. 265 miles of range, .32 kwh per mile. You average 65 mph, and start at 4 am.

Right off the bat, you have 4 hours of battery life. To be safe, you stop at 7am for a spot of breakfast after hooking up to a local supercharger, 200 miles in. At 120kW, it should be able to fill a completely empty battery in 43 minutes, and you're not at empty. Last 10% can take a bit more, but you have plenty of time. You're back on the road at 8 am, go for another 200 miles and stop for lunch sometime around 11. 400 miles in, you eat at a sit down place(you need to take regular breaks when driving long distances), again hooking up to a charger. By 12 you're on the road again, drive until 3 pm when you take a 20 minute break(600 miles), charging your vehicle up 125 miles, going from 65 miles left to 190 just for safety, as you don't want to be rolling into your brother's with the battery warning you it's going dry. You're still to his place in time for dinner.

Re:Ever heard of Tesla's superchargers?

[Sique]

I live in Austria, my brother lives in Northern Germany. With a normal gas engine car, it's a 9 hrs drive at 120 kph (75 mph) on average and one tank/dinner stop of 45 mins. With switching drivers and not too much traffic we can make it in 8 hrs. Your plan will take at least 13 hrs.

Re:Ever heard of Tesla's superchargers?

[Firethorn]

Your plan will take at least 13 hrs.

Funny, I get 12 hours 20 minutes. I figured on 65 due to traffic, construction and whatnot. The assumption of higher speed saves you over an hour right there. Your NORMAL drive takes 10 hours, but you can rush it in 8. Living in the USA, the maximum speed limit I can count on is 75mph, no autobahn for us. :(

Other than that, I was being 'mean' with the Model S, never taking it below 25% charge, and rounding stops up to an hour. In reality you only need 67 charging minutes to make it(with some reserve), but note that only 43 minutes of charging are effective per stop. So you could reduce your breakfast/lunch to just over 1/2 hour each, be willing to eat/relax at odd times. For example, deciding to go 250 miles per run and only stop for 35 minutes each time is a valid solution(depending on conditions).

Roughly speaking, you only need to add 20 minutes to your NORMAL drive, though an EV isn't yet capable of your speed drive. But it's not actually good to drive non-stop like that. They already recommend rest stops every 2-3 hours when driving.

That's using a current EV, of course. If every promise of this lithium-sulfur battery were true and it ended costing the same per pound, that's 1,060 miles of range per charge, so you could easily ironman the drive even if fast driving saps the pack quicker than rated mileage. If they cut the pack in half to save money, with 530 miles of range your current 45 minute dinner stop would easily top it off enough to make it the rest of the way.

Re:Ever heard of Tesla's superchargers?

[Sique]

If I drive to my brother's, I usually drive for an hour, make a 5 min stop, and then drive the next hour. This makes the 1000 km drive (ok, it's exactly 1028 km) a 8:40 h tour. here.com puts it at 8:42 h, which nicely fits my experiences. With some cars (especially some diesels) I can do the whole distance without a tank stop, otherwise I have to prolonge one stop to 10 mins for a refill - putting the trip at 8:45 h. With the Tesla S, I have to recharge every 300 km, which takes me about 40 mins each (ok, just 20 mins at the last recharge), adding another 1:40 h.

It just means, that I have to get up 1:40 h early. Or that I can drive 200 km less per day.

Re:Ever heard of Tesla's superchargers?

[Firethorn]

With the Tesla S, I have to recharge every 300 km

Why 300km? The 85kwh battery rates out to 426 km, and empty to full is ~43 minutes. So it's not 300km@40min, it's 1/3rd more, 400km.

If the battery in the OP works out, well, that's 1600km of range, easily able to get you there without recharging at all.

and it keeps

[Anonymous Coward]

snakes away, according to my grandma