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RC Plane Attack 'Foiled,' Say German Authorities
garymortimer writes with this excerpt from Sky News as carried by Yahoo UK: "German authorities are holding two men of Tunisian origin who they say are facing possible charges for the 'preparation of a serious, state-threatening act of violence.' Prosecutors say the men are suspected of 'procuring information and objects to commit Islamic extremist explosive attacks with remote-controlled model airplanes,' prosecutors added. Police investigating the terror plot on Tuesday launched a series of raids in Stuttgart and Munich in southern Germany and Saxony in the east. They also carried out one raid in Belgium. No-one was arrested. The suspects had been under surveillance for more than a year and authorities had recently detected 'an increased interest in explosives and model aircraft,' according to an unnamed security source quoted by a German news agency."
if i read the article, could i be accused of ''procuring information to commit Islamic extremist explosive attacks with remote-controlled model airplanes,' - i mean, if they go into detail about what was planned..... oh oh! they could even say "ive downloaded it onto my computer" with the cunning use of a cache.
I wonder if the German government stores a database of every one of their citizens phone? If they do, was that database used to catch these guys? Why can the Germans catch Islamic extremists using remote control planes, but the American government cannot catch Islamic extremists using pressure cookers?
sudo make me a sandwich
I'm afraid to click on an article like this now. PRISM is watching. (Well, and has been for quite some time!)
...state-threatening act of violence.
Unless the model plane is the size of a 747 or the explosive is anit-matter, how is that a "... state-threatening act of violence." Is Germany in such dire straits that a single model aircraft can topple a whole country?
Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
Model planes? Even loaded with military type high explosives model aircraft could not be more than a minor LOCAL threat. Not a threat to the state. Puhlease!
Under surveillance for more than a year? These guys sound like a "real" threat.
WTF? Is Germany taking a play from the U.S. book of fear mongering and manufactured boogeymen?
The only thing we can know for sure is that this "incident" will be used as an excuse to limit public access to model aircraft and "civilian drones".
You could take an eye out!
See, we do need all this surveillance, now shut up, you stupid peasants.
Yeah, I've only flown r/c planes for 40 years. They can NOT carry a big enough payload to do any substantial damage. Even full-sized Cessna's have been ruled out as not being able to carry enough explosives to be a real threat.
Really - did anyone in Washington bother to think about the fact that by repeatedly demonstrating to terrorists how easy it was to use 'remote-controlled model planes packed with explosives' to cheaply kill people that you otherwise couldn't easily reach ("Drone Strikes") that the terrorists wouldn't eventually try variations on the same idea themselves?
So did they actually have/make illegal explosives or did they just buy some RC planes and read about explosives online? There is a big difference. I read about a lot of fringe topics including improvised weapons but I'm certainly no terrorist.
Say goodbye to RC as a hobby.
I used to be critical of mass surveillance and the erosion of civil rights, but this narrowly avoided terrorist attack made me realize only a transition to a police state can save us from the Terrorists. I, for one, will be cheering when politicians soon suggest we need more domestic spy drones, censorship of the internet, and a bigger budget for the NSA.
I guess terrorists play too much Grand Theft auto at this point...I seem to recall that mission early in Vice City using R/C helicopters...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
What is an Islamic extremist explosive attack? How is that different than an American extremist explosive attack? Or any other type of person, extremist or not, "explosive attack"?
Enough with the politically correct/can't risk offending anyone B.S. This was an islamofascist attack. The method is irrelevant. You show me one kid who is into R/C/ planes who also isn't into blowing stuff up and I'll show you a liar. Every geek with R/C passions has at one time or another put rockets or firecrackers in their vehicles.
So now the Germans are in favour of government surveillance?
Yeh, that doesn't sound right, they can't carry squat, the engine is only big enough to carry the plane itself, so lets dig:
"Last November, American Rezwan Ferdaus was sentenced to 17 years in prison over a plot to fly remote-controlled model planes packed with explosives into the Pentagon."
OK, a name to search on:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15101449
"Posing as accomplices, the undercover agents then supplied him with grenades, six machine guns and C-4 explosives. Mr Ferdaus was also supplied with a remote-controlled plane that could be guided by GPS and fly at 100mph (160km/h)."
So the anti-terror agents supplied: the explosive and the plane and the plot for that one.
"Last year, Spanish police released a video they claimed showed suspected al Qaeda members training for a bombing raid using a model plane."
This one?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsrm66_al-qaeda-planned-model-plane-attack-on-gibraltar_news#.Ucw7S5xrEcE
That plane is not packed with explosives (you can see from the way it takes off its not loaded with anything, and it would need a runway near the target since these are short range anyway). It looks like people flying a model plane from a runway and it crashing.
This plot doesn't make sense. It is a hollywood movie plot. Are these two of the NSA plots? You know when the NSA General was trying to justify lawbreaking, he said 50 plots in 20 countries? I see the first one, Rezwan was a hot head that had been asked to make phone detonators by undercover agents, and then given a plane and explosives and arrested for a plot of having a plane and explosives.....
if you are either not white or white and poor then all of your activities are suspicious
"..became radicalised by watching jihadist propaganda on the internet..."
Became "radicalised"??!! WTF?
You'd have to be mentally unstable in the first place to believe that kind of thing.
The only "propaganda" is blaming the internet in the first place.
Mind you I've seen Iron-man 3 so hey you never know.
And if you're both you'll be elected president
Sorry that is not the society common sense therefore we consider you racist. Please stand by until society changes opinion and a new common sense is built. Then we will say "Why didn't you say it sooner?"
If "likes to blow shit up" is the metric against which dangerous people are measured maybe a wall should be built around the US so they can't get out.
Not such thing. It is none, or no one.
Doctor Doctor Give me the News
I've got a bad case of loving you
Because some like it hot
And she's a murderess
Murderess
Now there's something you don't hear anymore.
Murderess
Maybe in Tunis
Don't they have their own shit to blow up?
The suspects had been under surveillance for more than a year and authorities had recently detected 'an increased interest in explosives and model aircraft,' according to an unnamed security source quoted by a German news agency."
Whoah there, fellas! So basically you've admitted to spying on innocent people for years, in who-knows-how-big of a trolling operation, and you finally caught two small fish who so far have done nothing more than "shown an interest" in something that might count as illegal?
I realize the FP doesn't involve the US, but I also thought Germany had gotten rid of the whole Stasi thing back when the wall came down.
Evidently not.
The trouble with all of these plots, is that the RC plane is already at its maximum load with its fuel. You can't even stick an extra tank on them without making it too heavy. If you could, you'd be able to stick in a big fuel tank and increase the range or reduce the wing size and make them lighter faster and more maneuverable.
So even changing the plot from explosives to 'magic toxic chemical', we're still looking at at small bottle, and then making the fuel tank smaller to lessen the weight. How would it spray the liquid? You'd need a sprayer, but that's extra weight too.
I don't think a few CCs of acid "can be a threat to the state", so what liquid did you have in mind?
It just doesn't seem plausible. It sounds like you're fishing for a plot that can pass the Slashdot techies.
I suspect, like the Rezwan Ferdaus plot, this is a case of find an angry muslim / give muslim explosives and plot / arrest him for your plot. Germany because the Germans are angry at being spied on, so they need a story about how the spies saved them from evil plot to kill them style story.
1+ million dollars and the weight of a full sized car. What RC model aircraft are you suggesting that replicates that?
Oh yeah, the terrorist thing too, but the actual story here is that people were under surveillance for more than a year without giving cause for their arrest. Particularly since the raid didn't result in an arrest, and the conclusion that the "terror plot" is at best a flimsy excuse to justify the surveillance is almost inevitable.
As a citizen in Germany, I honestly feel more threatened by that than by someone allegedly planning to put explosives onto a toy plane.
Until your ideological side stops insisting on private ownership of instruments of automated mass murder, you should probably keep quiet on the whole "blowing people up" thing to avoid hypocrisy.
select name,address from PRISM.maildata where body like '%plane%' and body like '%explosive%' and header like '%.tn%';
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Really? How does this relate to "my rights online" in any conceivable way?
However, public broadcaster SWF quoted unnamed sources as saying that the two were studying aeronautics in Stuttgart and were suspected of trying to develop techniques for remotely piloting model planes using GPS technology.
What, they couldn't find DIY Drones?
public broadcaster SWF quoted unnamed sources as saying that the two were studying aeronautics in Stuttgart and were suspected of trying to develop techniques for remotely piloting model planes using GPS technology.
Wow, who would ever guessed someone studying aeronautics could have an interest in that [/sarcasm]
I also don't see anything spectacular in their supposed interest in explosives. Watching things blow up spectacularly is lots of fun as is proven by the success of Mythbusters a success that at least in part can be attributed to this. Crap! Grant Imahara better stay out of Germany.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
Does anyone else remember "The Mad Mad Tea Party Affair" episode, where U.N.C.L.E. headquarters is "attacked" by an RC plane?
but only if you sell your soul and lie out of both ends.
Sounds reasonable. Walls are among the things I like to blow up.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Cue 400 posts from enthusiastic slashdotters with RC experience explaining exactly where they went wrong.
Expect discussion of cargo capacity, range, optimal fuel mixes, construction materials, markings proven to increase terror...
So basically you've admitted to spying on innocent people for years, in who-knows-how-big of a trolling operation, and you finally caught two small fish who so far have done nothing more than "shown an interest" in something that might count as illegal?
Right. Most FBI-reported "terrorist plots" are like that, especially the ones that involve informers. They get a report of some loser mouthing off about blowing up something, and they investigate. They get some informer close to the jerk and encourage the wannabe to push their plan forward, often providing resources to help. Then they arrest the loser and announce they've foiled a "terrorist plot".
The most notable example of this kind of FBI activity was the "terrorist plot to blow up the Sears Tower" in 2006. Even the FBI Director said it was "more aspirational than operational".
When Al-Queda set up the 9/11 attacks, they had good operational security. Nobody talked in public about the plan, and many of the participants didn't know the details until hours before takeoff. What the FBI is doing wouldn't stop a real terrorist organization.
My grave concern has been people flying RCs or drones (one or more) into the intakes of jet engines during approach or take off. If a large bird can take out an engine, no extra payload would be needed (save maybe a few pieces of titanium).
Yes, most countries have 'significant infrastructure' along navigable waterways. Yes, you could build a quite large bomb into most boats.
However it's not considered as much of a risk because you're still looking at well under 1% of infrastructure is actually close to such a waterway, and while I could construct less ideal circumstances for setting off a bomb, I'd have to think about it to build something less ideal.
The thing to remember is that explosive power drops roughly with the square of the range. While there's lots of infrastructure 'along' waterways, it's not normally ON the waterway, so you can only get so close. Compounding this you generally have a wall or shore, so your boat is sitting lower than the infrastructure, up against a wall that's designed to be able to hold back tons of rushing water from the same direction your explosion will come from, while there's wide open space behind and around you. So 'most' of the explosion will end up deflected away from your target, limiting effectiveness.
An RC plane can be used to attack almost anywhere, and can bypass such defenses as sea/river walls and various obstructions used to prevent vehicles from driving too close to sensitive buildings.
If you're going to bring down a building, from most standpoints it's best to bring down an important one; some random fish processing factory doesn't have the value a government building would.
I don't read AC A human right
Okay, time for a quick explosives lesson.
Explosives are(mostly) rated by how fast they burn/oxidize. 'slow' burning explosives tend to push stuff, while 'fast' burning ones tend to shatter them.
As a result, they've divided explosives up into two categories:
Low explosives - subsonic deflageration; needs to be contained to truly 'explode'
High explosives - supersonic detonation - needs no container.
Gun powder is interesting in that it's more of a mechanical mixture and can very between a low level high explosive all the way down to low end low explosives, depending on the mix. Chemical proportions, how long it's been mixed, grain size, grain formation method, and more all play factors.
The container doesn't have to be all that strong either - the fuselage itself might be enough.
I don't read AC A human right
It's an airplane, so it has airfoils, duh.