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Snowden Offered Asylum By Venezuelan President
First time accepted submitter aBaldrich writes "Edward Snowden was offered 'humanitarian asylum' by Nicolás Maduro, the president of Venezuela. The country's official news agency reports (original Spanish, Google translation) that the decision was taken after a meeting of the presidents of Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Suriname, Uruguay and Venezuela. Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European countries, and that he is acting 'on behalf of the dignity of the Americas.'"
The Guardian confirms.
Now the question is how will he get there? There is no direct flights from Moscow. Hell, some countries even denied Bolivian presidents airspace when they thought Snowden was on the plane.
Cuba Flight 455 blown up, 78 people killed, Posada Carriles (who, BTW, was trained by the CIA at Fort Benning) escaped Venezuela to the US, and currently lives in Miami after the US refused Venezuelan extradition, on the grounds that he could be tortured if extradited. (Judges generally don't do irony.) He was tried, and acquitted, in the US for entering the country illegally, in the course of the trial his lawyers made the interesting statement that ""The Defendant's CIA relationship, stemming from his work against the Castro regime through his anti-communist activities in Venezuela and Central America, are relevant and admissible to his defense."
Although you will find barely a mention of the connection in the English language press, Juan Cole connects the dots.
What happens when the American people finaly get tired of the corruption in government? Where will all the CONgressMEN, banksters, corporate criminals flee to? Argentina? Uraguay? Paraguay? Hmmm.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Little tip to Obama: this could be a solution for your prison overcrowding problems. Dump them on these third rate socialist shit holes. Just make sure you tag each criminal as enemy of the USA, and they will lap up anything you throw at them. Even if you pay for air fare you win. Try it.
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
I wrote the joke and must say I (mostly) agree with you. .
Slightly dated now that el Presedente Chávez has passed on, but I doubt much has changed since. I'm sure Snowden will be happy if he makes it there, although he should probably bring toilet paper with him.
Venezuela toilet paper shortage sends ordinary lives around the bend - 23 May 2013
Scarcity of toilet rolls seen as part of 'general malaise' in which Venezuelans have to use guile during shortage in many staples
Venezuela crackdown deemed worst in years
Chavez Wasn't Just a Zany Buffoon, He Was an Oppressive Autocrat - Mar 5 2013
Like an old-style dictator, he treated the state as his personal plaything but, unlike one, his power rested not on violence but on genuine popular affection. Venezuela's history since 1999 has been the story of that contradiction playing itself out across the lives of 29 million people.
Chávez's insistence on absolute submission from his supporters paved the way for the rise of an over-the-top cult of personality. As questioning any presidential directive was a sure career-ender for his followers, the upper reaches of his government came to be dominated by yes-men. Further down the food chain, too, extravagant displays of personal loyalty were required from every person in every nook and cranny of Venezuela's massive and fast-growing state apparatus, with state-owned factory workers required to attend rallies and clerical personnel fully expected to donate part of their salaries to the ruling party.
Instead of a police state, Chávez built a propaganda state, one that churned out slogan after slogan stressing the intense, personal, near-mystical bond between him and his followers. . .
Finding no resistance, Chávez gave free rein to his creative streak. He changed the country's official name, shifted its time zone by half-an-hour on a whim and added an extra star to the flag. At one point, he ordered the National Coat of Arms changed on his then 9-year-old daughter's suggestion. When an opposition satirist responded by publishing an Open Letter to the First Daughter -- reasoning that if she was now making public policy, people had a right to address her -- Chávez had the paper that printed the letter fined for violating a child's privacy.
Venezuela - 2013 Index of Economic Freedom
In 1999, Hugo Chávez won the presidency, vanquished the traditional party system, and launched his Bolivarian Revolution aimed at “Socialism for the 21st Century.” Chávez styles himself the leader of Latin America’s anti–free market forces and has made alliances with China, Cuba, Russia, and rogue states like Iran. He has persecuted his political adversaries and critics, restricted media freedom, undermined the rule of law and property rights, militarized the government, and tried to destabilize neighboring Colombia. The national assembly, which he controls, passed a 2009 constitutional amendment allowing him to seek yet another presidential term, and he won re-election in October 2012. Venezuela has Latin America’s highest inflation rate (currently nearly 30 percent); chronic electricity, food, and housing shortages; and skyrocketing crime rates.
The judiciary is dysfunctional and completely controlled by the executive. Politically inconvenient contracts are abrogated, and the legal system discriminates against or in favor of investors from certain foreign countries. The government expropriates land and other private holdings across the economy arbitrarily and without compensation. Corruption, exacerbated by cronyism and
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Russia to Cuba
Cuba to Venezuela
Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European Countries
I hope that should read "Maduro denounced an attempt at 'colonizing' by several European Countries,"
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Shame, America, Shame. The land of the free and of the brave. Mr. Snowden believes in America. Poor him.
I'm so ashamed to be an European, shit-scared of the US government (especially the German president, with her past should very well know what political asylum is worth).
Sorry, world. We underperformed this time again US and EU.
It is telling that an (apparent) opponent of Snowden would hold up extrajudicial killing as an example of 'justice'.
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
Don't bet on it. If Russia decides it seriously wants to help, then they'll never even know he's left until he's in Venezuela. As of *right now*, nobody has seen Snowden since he got to Moscow. In fact, nobody has seen him in Moscow at all. Russia claims he's holed up in Sheremetyevo Airport, but nobody has seen him there. Nobody saw him get off the flight from Hong Kong. Is he still in Moscow? Was he ever in Moscow at all? I wouldn't take bets.
US fighters to intercept. Russia, Cuba and Venezuela are outside the US's reach, but the airspace between them isn't.
Not that simple. They have to play the shell game, but with Russia's cooperation, they can, and they may in fact be doing so.
After exposing massive metadata-based surveillance by his government, he might have to take asylum in a repressive country that routinely has conversations between opposition politicians recorded, edited, manipulated and shown on state-owned TV. That is, excluding the ones that had to flee or were jailed on bogus charges. The bitter irony cannot be missed.
This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory. USA hated him viciously because of his oil-based power in OPEC, plus his aversion to letting them control the destiny of Venezuela and from there the rest of latinamerica. And that's pretty much it.
You're pretty transparent.
Like the U.S. which has the highest incarceration rate worldwide? Where's the shithole now?
That would be a direct act of war - intercepting a foreign flag airliner in international airspace.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Indeed no-one has seen him or has been able to contact him there, and journalists have tried hard, including by staying at that hotel and calling all other rooms (he probably just ignores these calls). However he's also not known to have left on another flight: no-one reported seeing him boarding another flight from Moscow.
His letters requesting asylum however were reported to be posted from the transit hotel at that airport, so it is quite likely he actually is there.
It won't take long before we'll know what happened, now asylum has been offered.
Snowden, justice is coming for you!
You wouldn't know what justice was if it bit you in
your lowlife white trash ass.
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
Including cannibalism, for example?
Ezekiel 23:20
Maduro denounced an attempt to 'colonize' several European Countries
I hope that should read "Maduro denounced an attempt at 'colonizing' by several European Countries,"
From the Huffington Post
"The European people have seen the cowardice and the weakness of their governments, which now look like colonies of the United States," the Venezuelan president said.
finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime. Nice joke, though.
Anything ? really ?
"What could possibly go wrong ..."
(caption is "unclear" ...)
Yep, go have your oral sex without government interference.
That isn't justice mate. That's a kangaroo court.
If both the eater and the eaten consent, then why not?
"His name was James Damore."
Pathetically enough, this is probably true. If Snowden actually gets in the air bound for a country that intends to give him Asylum, the US will probably do anything in its power to make sure his plane is grounded (preferably in a country willing to arrest/extradite him) before he gets there.
After years of not using a signature, I am going to make one to say the following: Fuck Beta
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime.
There are certain words that seem to invite trouble, whether you are dealing with science or people. Among them are: impossible, always, never, and I'll include "anything" for the post. (I kind of wish I had never heard the news story on this ...)
The Castration Dungeon
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Including cannibalism, for example?
Are you trying to tell us that you want to eat other consenting adults? Do not despair, you could always move to parts of Papua New Guinea. The rest of us have /not/ moved their, because we have no inclination to eat people, consenting or otherwise.
We don't have laws to crush the morbidly dark beast lying in every man. The fundies are working with a broken model of human nature. They once believed that banning alcohol would stop alcohol usage. Goes to show how ass-backwards they are, since drug addiction/alcoholism/social-ill-of-your-choice is almost certainly best dealt with as a public health issue.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
If it is not a Russian airliner, how afraid would the US even be of that? Their military could probably crush any small Central/South American country's military no problem (they should have at least 10x the combined active personnel of Cuba and Venezuela) if they actually declared war on the United States. If it is Russia though then we have potential World War III.
After years of not using a signature, I am going to make one to say the following: Fuck Beta
He probably thinks of himself as a constitutional lawyer, sitting in his basement, railing against the decline of civilization.
Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
Isn't Putin basically just saying Snowden oughta join the KGB and stop "hurting" their American "allies"?
Exactly how much winking was involved in Putin's claim? Is Snowden perhaps just pretending to be a little dense?
> that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Then tell me how it goes.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Name one oppressive dictator he's even met.
I've come to the conclusion that Putin and Obama have reached some kind of deal. Putin is getting something he wants in exchange for agreeing to neither overtly help Snowden to get to another country nor requiring that Russia hand him over directly to US authorities. I have believed for years that George W. Bush botched the relationship between the US and Russia by being unable to understand the concept of quid pro quo. See, Bush believed that people should just do the right thing because it was right, not because they were going to get anything in return. This is a big part of why Poland, Bulgaria and Ukraine quickly jumped in to provide troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. They thought they were going to get visa free US travel in exchange. They pulled out when they realized that Bush was literally incapable of understanding that he owed them something in return. Putin somehow got burned by this too, although I have no idea what he wanted, and he has not forgotten it. Russia isn't going to provide any travel docs to Snowden, offer him asylum in Russia or hand him over to the USA. Venezuela won't send a ship because it fears that the US would just board it or maybe even sink it in international waters. My guess is that Venezuela will offer him a travel document that the Russians will accept, at which point they'll casually mention to their American friends "Oh by the way, Snowden is on flight XXX bound for Venezuela. Here's the flight path." and the US may plan an interception over international waters once it leaves European airspace. The Russians will then claim publicly that they are shocked, yes shocked, at this violation of international air space, which provides the plausible deniability they need.
Would it? If they were willing to bounce Morales' personal aircraft around, why wouldn't they do this?
Um, no. The real solution is dismantling for-profit prison industry in the US. Should you end war on drugs, they'll lobby for jailing people for other trivial "offences" like being illegal immigrant or publishing bad jokes on Facebook. Oh, wait ...
The US has shot down passenger jets before. Cf. Iran Air flight 655.
Please, enough about this guy already. Everyone knows there are way worse violation of human rights in the world perpetrated by far worse governments than our own against people who will NEVER have a chance to escape, so why are we giving this guy so much attention? He wants to goto countries with civil rights abuse records so astonishing and atrocious, it makes America look like an oasis in a desert! Sure, but the NSA, etc. etc. Yea, well you have running water, clothes, a car, job or prospects, food, shelter, health, medicine, a family, a right to vote, and after all that upset over the NSA, hey, you didn't stop using the internet or your phone. So they must not be wrecking your human rights that much, and I'm led to believe you can't be that affected or distrubed by it, so maybe be quiet about it ok? Your actions speak louder than your words. If you are so paranoid and you feel like your rights are so infringed, what are you doing readling slashdot online on a saturday morning or afternoon? Shouldn't you be sweeping your house for bugs, building a bunker maybe, and calling all your representatives in washington?
Meanwhile, our fingers are not enough to count the list of real human rights tragedies occurring elsewhere in the world right now, but hey, this Snowden guy, yea, he's the person whose rights are in the utmost peril here.
Even if it was a Learjet, blowing up the plane is an -overkill-. There will be other casualties, and Snowden does not represent an immediate menace to US citizens. It would be impossible to argue the legality of such an act, even in US courts of law. Acting like the bully does not always get what you want. Proof, look at what Obama got the Europeans to do (ridicule themselves), where Bush met strong and persistent resistance.
If the Russians really want to deliver him safely to Venezuele they can take him there by a nuclear submarine that can stay below the surface the whole trip. I seriously doubt that even an nation as aggressive as the US will attack a Russian submarine in international waters. If they would even find out before he mysteriously shows up in Venezuela.
More than likely there is no need to move to "indulge" in cannibalism.
Victim of cannibal agreed to be eaten
I don't think that the Temperance movement believed that it would stop all alcohol consumption, but that it would significantly decrease it. And they were right. Not only that, once prohibition was lifted, per-capita alcohol consumption took about 40 years to reach its previous level. The decrease in alcohol consumption had a number of impacts on other public health issues.
Did Prohibition Really Work? Alcohol Prohibition as a Public Health Innovation
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
It removes any legitimacy that the US might be able to claim under international law or aviation convention.
For instance, the Convention on International Civil Aviation only allows forcing a plane to land when it enters state's territory.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Now that would be an interesting study... in any case, not all drugs are created equal. And perhaps not all polygamy is created equal, but frankly that's even harder to have a discussion about than drugs. That makes sense, since there's a lot more drug users than practicing polygamists.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You say that as if it were some sort of horrible solution or unprecedented. Historically, emigration has been a major safety valve, both for the unjustly accused and persecuted to save themselves, and for nations to rid themselves of people that didn't fit in. All European nations got through the last few hundred years that way.
Regardless of what you may think of Snowden, the fact that a non-violent, educated, and skilled guy has no place to go in the world really is a profound change in how the world works, and I don't think it's a good one.
Two thoughts:
First of all, he made it to Russia when everyone thought he was still in Hong Kong. Obviously he is pretty canny and aware of the abilities of the US to track him. I think its entirely possible that he has already left the airport and is en route to somewhere else. In fact the whole episode with the Bolivian president's jet might simply have been a distraction engineered to cover Snowden leaving Moscow to go somewhere else.
Secondly, when I was in the USSR many many years ago we landed at Shermeyetyevo Dva (2). The map I saw of the airport indicated that the reporters were in a section that had Terminals D, E and F (or something like that). There are 2 airports there, is it possible that the reason the reporters haven't seen Snowden or any evidence of his presence at Shermeyetyevo airport is because they are Dva (2) and he is at (Odin) 1?
Third thought: if he makes it to a country that offers him refuge, this is going to make a great movie plot sometime. Of course thats assuming the US doesn't simply assassinate him.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
All of which have the sole purpose of keeping you in debt to work your entire life for the benefit of the bankers and other assorted elite. You do know about the work-consume-debt-and-keep-fucking-working treadmill, right? The great American freedom ... to work until you die so that your betters can live in luxury.
Which is just misdirection and totally empty of value, since whoever you vote for keeps the same real command in power.
Whereas your privacy is the only thing you have that isn't to the benefit of the bankers and control freaks, so yeah, it would be nice to protect it.
The reality of dear ol' USA is somewhat different to the fiction portrayed in the non-stop domestic propaganda.
Poll after poll shows just under 50% Americans support giving up their basic civil rights to protect their security. Why?
Can anyone explain why people who live in a country famous for valuing liberty are so quick to give their own liberty away for a false feeling of safety? Is it cowardice? Is it ignorance?
Anarchists never rule
You are delusional. You really think they will use fighter planes intercept a flight just to arrest this guy?
I recall the news saying "Snowden is on a plane to Moscow". So that must have been during the flight already.
Then about the airport: news reports said that a transit passenger is not allowed to remain in the transit area, they must stay in the hotel. Also they are not allowed to leave their room until shortly before their connecting flight departs. So if Snowden is staying at the airport, and has not entered Russia, he must be in that hotel.
They are comfortable. All in all, even if you're up to your eyeballs in debt and barely making a living wage, you're much more comfortable in your poverty in America than you are elsewhere. Also, I think some of those polls overstate the actual numbers, because when you report on the nightly news that 49% of voters don't care about their privacy, then that next 1% sees it and thinks "Ok, I guess privacy isn't that big of a deal..." Actually, I think damn near everything you see on the nightly news is our corporate overlords telling us what they'd like us to be.
the US may plan an interception over international waters once it leaves European airspace
What exactly would they do? Before the aircraft heads out over the Atlantic it would have sufficient fuel to complete its trip. You can't board an aircraft in-flight no matter what the movies say (certainly not an unwilling aircraft). About the only thing the US could do is threaten to shoot down the aircraft unless it diverts. That is a bluff that is unlikely to work, especially if the aircraft is carrying other passengers (potentially they could just divert an airliner to stop in Moscow and pick him up - if it is something like a 777/747 that could complete the trip without refueling is somebody really going to shoot it down?).
With a ship they could do a forced boarding without having to kill every person on-board in the process.
Please watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v_uF-jr5pM
If somebody wants to be like this. Fine with me. But without the medical support.
Oh. And who will pay for the repairs of the vehicles and buildings?
Privacy is terrorism.
Justice? In the US? I bet they will have him tried in a military secret court with someone like Roland Freisler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Freisler) as a judge.
"Snowden, justice is coming for you!"
So, you're saying he's going to be a free man after all?
Of and there is still this conceptual thing called transit bubble: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2013/07/edward_snowden_has_spent_a_week_in_a_transit_zone_at_moscow_s_airport_what.html
He could be anywhere in Russia in his own transit bubble.
Interesting concept. Could you declare your own transit bubble?
Privacy is terrorism.
The United States has shot down one of these before. While not exactly a "jumbo" jet, these things hold several hundred people.
It was an Iranian jet.. how quickly we forget.
"His name was James Damore."
This is interesting news, because I had heard, from a reliable source, that when Snowden inquired of his attorney where on earth he could best be assured freedom from prosecution under U.S. law, the lawyer had recommended Wall Street.
If that happens it's time to start sniping senators.
He is a pseudonym created by Madison Avenue to provide street cred to entrenched media. They're trying to shed their lapdog image with this flea circus.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
That was an inconvenience. Denying somebody the use of your airspace is a typical bust their shoes tactic. It's a lot different than shooting down the plane.
The U.S. officials does not have the balls to do something like that. It would likely start WW3 in a second.
Just make sure it isn't commanded by Capt. Ramius.
They're not delusional, but they have been watching too many James Bond movies.
Ignorance. come on, the whole world jokes about how ignorant Americans are. An American couldn't "get it." No need for discussion and Americans are nearly hopeless to talk to about it, they are unjustifiably overconfident or dismissive on the issue. The Press is nearly dead... a farce. Good education is undermined and attacked (it's always easy to find something to complain about to justify attacking the parts that WORK. Critical Thinking, dead. Civics, dead. Creative Thinking, dead. School psychologist, gone..how dare they blame parents! Math test scores were too low to allow those other subjects...)
American culture has been promoting cowardice for generations now. Fear is the lowest common denominator for humans and it is not just exploited for politics - our modern marketing exploits it, our entertainment as well. The learned behaviors on how to respond to fear have been influenced as well. Americans are less happy and more stressed due to the impact of the commercial culture thrust upon them (which also has them praising it because it also raises us to love it.) IT IS A CULTURE OF FEAR - just spend some time here observing (not that these things are not being exporter abroad... they are. the UK does a bang up job of it.) The downside to having no shared cultural roots is that the population is easier to experiment on. As far as I'm concerned the only good thing about tradition is the temporary firewall it provides.
Propaganda is the source of the huge amount of working control over the masses today. America is home to some of the best of it, even Hitler got a lot of his research material from America. It was American propagandists post WW2 that renamed their new profession: Public Relations. Marketing and Advertizing being offshoots, applying the same techniques... and new ones. The military may weaponize all science but PR weaponizes all social science... and quickly makes it publicly available as a service to anybody with money.
American working poor live well enough; the middle class is happy enough during their decades of decline that it is not enough to get off their addictions long enough to do anything about it. The primary one being consumerism, the main tool behind it all: television.
Also, try arguing with an American in person. Observe the others around you as well. It is almost like you were in a fight, the unpleasantness to the viewers and the participants. See how disagreement is so contentious and how you will be judged and grudges formed simply by your disagreement. The people are WIMPS -- except in New York where everybody being rude has somewhat shielded them. Why learn the actual NEWS when it is so upsetting and depressing?? Turn on GOP TV and hear what "you" want to hear...(aka Fox News - BTW, the project name was GOP TV.) Personalization has led to wall gardens that /. people hate so much-- like the phones, it's more of an invisible fence that you don't mind being restricted to... even enjoying your confinement...
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Do you know how dumb the US would look if the plane holding Snowden crashes into the sea? Obama has already stated that he's treating this as a low priority (although I don't really believe that), it would make him look like an absolute jackass and turn Snowden into a martyr, galvanizing the public. More likely is Snowden won't get a chance to travel at all, or if he does, they'll try to reroute the plane again.
Here is a solution for Snowden. Get to South America via China. China is big enough and scary enough that not too many people are going to mess with a diplomatic flight from them. If the US does try, China controls enough of the US economy that it can really play havoc with it. Sino-Russian relations are pretty good today and Chinese investment/support in Russia could easily replace any lost from the US.
Yes, the US wants Snowden back, but they are playing a really dangerous game in the way they are trying to do it. Much more revealing than any information Snowden might have released is the extent that the US will go to silence him. Hell, for most people in the US, the whole Snowden afair was old news until the US had diplomatic flights diverted.
I have no doubt that the US will eventually get Snowden, the questions is how big of a martyr will the make him before that happens. What was a minor embarrasment in leaked secrets that everybody new was going on has escalated into Snowden being treated like public enemy number one. Meanwhile, the really bad people are laughing as they plot their next moves in relative obscurity.
See, Bush believed that people should just do the right thing because it was right
For certain values of right, of course
In the US, politicians have been effectively taking the citizens for a ride in the name of national security. Politicians know that carefully balancing the national security and economic security is the key to getting a large number of people to desist from protect. Just like in China. People of weary of what kind of setup they will get if they depose the communist govt. Right now many of the Chinese citizens are making some sort of money and the country is seemingly secure. People want it that way.
And how you are going to board Alpha class submarine ? It is faster under water than any US submarine.
Yea, they'll definitely want to let a snitch on one of the most secret things they own.
Russia doesn't want the snitch any more than anyone else does.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Obama has already stated that he's treating this as a low priority
Well, then it's a good thing he never lies....
Tribalism is at the heart of our scalability problems.
People who do well in politics can have a spine - they just can't use it much. When you are a bug you need to be sure to not get crushed by the powerful. Thriving well enough to rise to power filters out most the good people.
The systems of power ALWAYS keeps threats to the status quo away from gaining enough power to threaten THEIR "security". Even segments of the population participate in this, those being the people who gained power from the way things are and have strong motives to maintain it. Large segments of the population are ass kissing wannabees who will support their idols because they plan to be one of them someday (and don't forget the ones who think they are elite but are not.) You'll hear these people sometimes talk about "their country" and "their way of life" or even the leaders equating themselves to the nation (criticize the leader, you criticize the nation) but it is all a selfish perspective, they only refer to themselves as if all other perspectives do not exist or are unjustified. You see, others suffer because they don't see things the way WE ELITE do... you communist! (or whatever tribal slur) If you were successful/rich/powerful, you'd understand our wisdom...etc.
Human social ordering. same every time. the successful fear losing their advantages and invent excuses to justify their exploitation of the lesser classes (which is nearly always the case in human history.) The middle class takes a middle position and easily will flip flop between both sides... if the nation does well, then their bias will be with the top and they'll generally undermine themselves.
A democratic system is more influenced by these factors than other systems. If more people actively voted... the impact of the defenders of the elite would be greatly diminished... but like all such systems it would still fall into despotism as the majority fails to do their job and gradually fall prey to an elite... wide spread success being a big threat as they shirk their responsibilities to maintain balance to go watch TV.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
"I've come to the conclusion that Putin and Obama have reached some kind of deal. Putin is getting something he wants in exchange for agreeing..."
Ya...an agreement that the US won't boycott another Russian Olympics which Putin has considerable political and economic investment. Putin will probably have to cut loose Syria if current Asad government operations are less than successful come the Autumn for the same reasons.
I think Putin is stupid...the Americans WILL ultimately find a 'reason du jour' to boycott; it's the nature of the American regime to target anything internationally that might be seen as promoting a potential adversary with no direct economic clout.
From my observation there are several reasons. Think of a polling question, "do you approve the NSA collection of metadata to fight terrorism?" When people hear that on the phone, the question might go by so fast that the only thing the listener hears is 'do you approve blah fight terrorism?" I can't say myself I know what they mean by metadata. However, more recent polls that ask more careful questions show higher opposition to the NSA program.
The most intellectual defenses I've heard say that the monitoring only happens with callers calling foreigners, which is strictly legal. The monitoring isn't domestic. They feel that's a reasonable trade-off for catching terrorists, and that furthermore there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in whom you call anyway. Furthermore, there's no evidence of abuse of the system.
I tend to disagree with this line of reasoning, and believe that it will eventually be abused (all power invites abuse, ask the IRS).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
And how you are going to board Alpha class submarine ? It is faster under water than any US submarine.
Ok, sure, they could stick him on a sub. Basically the same as a plane then - you can sink it, but you can't board it.
The Alfa can definitely be sunk though - it might be faster than US subs, but only when running flat-out and it would be easy to detect at that speed if they try to sprint the whole way to South America. It also isn't THAT much faster than a US sub - they'd have to sprint for much of their voyage to keep away from them, and at that speed the US would just need to have a sub in its path to intercept and just do air patrols to track it, or sink it if desired. Generally the security of a sub relies on stealth - speed is only used tactically.
Just like with a plane, however, that is a bluff that is going to get called. The US wouldn't shoot down a Venezuelan diplomatic aircraft, and they certainly aren't going to fire on a Russian Alfa during peacetime in international waters.
...See, Bush believed that people should just do the right thing because it was right, not because they were going to get anything in return...
Bush believed that people should act in his best interests and in the best interests of the corporations he represented regardless of any moral right or wrong. There was never any concern or consideration otherwise. They were either "with him or against him".
That aircraft was shot down in error, not deliberately (well, the error was in identifying it as a threat - the shootdown itself was obviously deliberate). I don't think the US would be likely to target any airliner unless it were carrying a nuclear bomb towards NYC or something crazy like that.
I don't think that the example you cited really has any relevance here. Maybe if somebody was suggesting that Snowden get on an airplane and have it take off from an unfriendly country and dive at a US carrier or something it would be more pertinent. The place the Iranian airliner downing is more likely to replay itself would be with a US airliner full of ordinary passengers over the Washington DC ADIZ if somebody really messed up.
I could see the US threatening a plane, or closing airspace to a plane, but not actually shooting one down unless that plane was actually an imminent threat.
I bet if pot were made completely legal today it would take at least 40 years before people stopped growing their own.
Booze consumption statistics are suspect as hell. Today shine costs more then store bought booze most places. That's the only reason I assume stats are now fairly accurate.
At that I know where to get some if I wanted. Last I asked it was $20/2liters about 150 proof, but you have to know someone to get it at all.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
You do realize the mainstream media is a complete fabrication right? It's completely designed to control what you think..
You think the USA is not a propaganda state? HAHAHA, are you saying Venezuela's propaganda state is worse than ours? The USA might as well be nazi germany with our nationalist propaganda.
Fuckheads like you and the mainstream media talking points you blindly copy and paste are a huge problem in the world. I wish I could chop your fingers off so you can't post your own propaganda horse shit.
because they're mostly stupid, its not there fault they were brought up in an oppressive regime that keeps them terrified of anything foreign while hiding the evil grin
Or, maybe, be like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFGgbT_VasI
Or like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FrOQC-zEog
-- Counting backwards since 1984!
...and turn Snowden into a martyr, galvanizing the public.
You have way too much faith in the public.
If he can get back to the US alive, he'd be better off turning himself over-- note that prosecutions for espionage in whistleblosing cases don't have a history of success, and it would likely further expand his cache as a hero.. But getting back alive is going to be the challenge, since the US clearly has no sense of limits when they're operating outside the country. He's probably already toast, as the CIA may have little in the way of access limits to him where he is. Like Assange, a whistlblower holed up like a rat is actually far better than one in custody that you have to convict via judge or jury and under public scrutiny.
The way they're treating this whole situation, the U.S. government seems to think Snowden *is* an imminent threat.
That aircraft was shot down in error, not deliberately
The US could also shoot down Snowden's aircraft "in error". People make mistakes. If people are willing to buy the Assange rape thing despite the timing I doubt the suspicious coincidence will bother them now. I think the US is capable of something like that, but taking a boat is impractical and a submarine simply isn't going to happen. So Snowden will have to take the risk of flying. He doesn't have a choice.
Once he has temporary travel documents he could just take a direct commercial flight to Havana, but I don't know if the airline would allow it. The normal flight path passes through US airspace. Would the airline be willing to alter the flight path due to just one passenger?
If the flight passes through US airspace I think there is a chance that USAF jet fighters could threaten to shoot the plane down if they don't land at the nearust US airport and allow Snowden to be taken in to custody. Before they grounded the Bolivian president's plane I would have thought this possibility unlikely, but not anymore.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
When "polygamy" is mentioned, it's ONLY about one man marrying many women. Not one woman marrying many men, nor one man marrying many men, or any other combination. Only one man marrying many women.
Polygamy will be impossible whilst there are issues of taxes, inheritance and other legal issues that hinge on the familial relationship between people who get married (visiting in hospital for the more benign one).
HOWEVER, it is entirely your call if you want to forgo marriage to many people and just live in "sin" with them.
Go right ahead. Nobody will stop you.
It's been happening for ages.
A decade ago, a significant majority of Americans was against gay marriage and that has turned around completely. It's a combination of understanding the issues, the slow pace of the justice system, and old folks dying off. Hopefully, Snowden is the beginning of the end of this nonsense.
Polygamy by itself might not be a problem, but polygamy combined with divorce lawyers could destroy lives by the dozen.
It removes any legitimacy that the US might be able to claim
In other words, no obstacle whatsoever.
You're confusing "liberty" the ideal and "liberty" the Orwellian slogan.
Sooner or later.
You can only poke a bear so many time before it eats you.
You would think a countrys generals would tell the leader to quit flapping their gums when the 7th fleet shows up on their shore but no.
As a soldier I hate killing you as much as you hate being killed. Wise up.
You are delusional. You really think they will use fighter planes intercept a flight just to arrest this guy?
If a commercial flight passes through US air space fighter planes could "escort" the aircraft to the nearest airport and remove Snowden from the plane. Then send the aircraft on its way. If the pilot ignores the warnings from the USAF pilots shooting down the plane definitely couldn't be ruled out. Hell, they could do this even if the the flight doesn't enter international airspace. The US government clearly wants Snowden very, very badly. OTOH they could just wait until Snowden reaches his destination and then assassinate him. Unfortunately that is not unlikely. If they really want Snowden dead, disappeared, or in gitmo badly enough the sick bastards can probably accomplish it.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Run.
The reality is that Chavez did more for social conditions in his country than any other president in living memory.
Yeah, except for those rampant human rights abuses. "Social conditions" includes things like free speech, whether you feel you can get justice, feel safe. Even if what you claimed were true - that his people were better off with him than without him - the ends do not justify the means.
Whether US government officials (not "USA"; don't confuse a country's government or leadership with its people) found him a threat and a risk (not "hated him viciously") is irrelevant to Chavez's power-grubbing, human-rights-abusing, autocratic ruling. That you use the word "vicious" to describe the US government's attitude towards him, instead of how he treated his own people, shows that you have a serious perspective problem.
Please help metamoderate.
You seem to be forgetting any of the countries can simply send a plane there for a direct flight, escorted and all..,.
Are there also direct commercial flights from Moscow to Havana? I believe there are. He could go to Caracas from there too.
Artix
Your Linux, your init.
There are really two questions. Do I care if people are monitoring my communication? Not so much. I'm a nobody. There is no insider trading info I'm going to provide. I'm not directly involved in politics. I'm not moving markets. I don't have a lot of money. Etc. Most people don't get beyond this observation.
Do I care that communications is being monitored? Absolutely. It is so prone to abuse you have to be a moron to not see the problem with it. Insider trading. Blackmail of politicians and business men. Actively thwarting organization of political opposition/protests. You could literally use this information to ruin the country.
Is spying on people and business have anything to do with record profits to wall street and the average american living check to check. Is there a disincentive to produce due to the spying on people who make profits that they then with ease of duplication and competition so easily avaible at such a low cost. ie.. is the violation of the fourth ammedment interfere with and create and an enviornment to not be profitable beyond a certain point?
The ideal situation for Snowden would be to somehow get a flight to one of the countries that have offered him asylum without the press finding out which one. It would be even better if the asylum country were willing to let him change his name. Snowden has several asylum offers now, but that may not be enough to save his life.
Keeping the CIA guessing about his location may be at least as important as the asylum itself. If he can manage to stay hidden somewhere for the first year that may be enough for the CIA to give up on the case. Unfortunately I doubt the asylum country would be willing to keep Snowden's arrival a secret.
This case is dramatic and many of us are rooting for Snowden like we might for a character in a film who is being chased. Hell, someone like Michael Mann or David Fincher could probably make a great movie out of it. But I'm hoping that we never really find out where he chose to settle. If we know then so will the CIA.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I think all the countries involved in debriefing Snowden, from China and Russia down, are having a rip and getting back at the muddle-head media-mob that has become a constant pain in the arse to all of everyone everywhere. They have been setting them to watch empty spaces, sending them flocking off after empty leads, winding them up with wild rumours then setting them loose to twitter and tweet and blather their breathless babel as if they knew something and where 'on the scene'. Doing what Putin said they were doing when Snowden was in Russia, "shearing pigs", getting lots of squeals, but little wool.
I don't think the US would be likely to target any airliner unless it were carrying a nuclear bomb towards NYC or something crazy like that.
That is wonderfully naive.
Let's be straight: The president is NOT offering asylum to Snowden because of deeply held beliefs, he's doing it as a "fuck you" to the US. Part of Chavez's popularity came from his appearance (you can argue if he deserved it or not) of not kowtowing to America and giving them the finger. His successor is going on with the same thing. Venezuela is not bastion of human rights and spying on the opposition is something that is done there.
So this is not some deep-seated anti-spying position. It is politics. Also might be a bit of self-interest as he may hope Snowden will enlighten him as to the US's spying on Venezuela. Who knows if Snowden has any information on that though (intelligence information is kept compartmentalized).
As for the parent, it is always sad to hear about countries having real troubles, particularly when people in the US often make such a big deal out of trivial ones. I hope the very best for you and your nation, that your troubles will start to abate.
I fear that is not yet the case though :(.
The real solution to that is ending the War on Drugs and finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime.
There are certain words that seem to invite trouble, whether you are dealing with science or people. Among them are: impossible, always, never, and I'll include "anything" for the post. (I kind of wish I had never heard the news story on this ...)
The Castration Dungeon
You failed to explain why you consider this problematic. It works better than nit-picking semantics. I read your link and it sounds like everyone involved consented. So long as no one was ever forced to participate, I don't see the problem here. If you think what they did was fucked up (and I agree, it is) then all you have to do is not knock on their door and ask to participate. Isn't that simple? They got to choose and you get to choose, which is something actual victims don't get to do. I realize the state loves an excuse to use force, but there is no actual crime here.
So then: what activity among consenting adults do you believe would damage society and in what way would that damage occur? Note, the moment third parties are affected you fail the "consenting adults" criteria. (I.e. Drinking? Fine. Driving drunk? No, because now you are endangering others who did not consent to be endangered. That is a crime and deserves to be treated as such.)
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
> that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime
Why don't you start with something less detrimental to society than drugs, say polygamy?
Then tell me how it goes.
Most people simply don't want to practice polygamy. If they do, that's not my business and it's not my job to stop them.
Both myself and my significant other want a one-on-one, monogamous relationship. Let's say a home down the street has a polygamist family. Polygamy is the only usual thing they do; everything else is quite normal. All members of that home understand what polygamy is and have entered into the arrangement willingly. In what way are they harming you or me? On what grounds would you use the police power of government (force, guns, threats of force) to stop them?
There is no answer to that question that makes sense. There are lots of "I want to force, at the point of a government gun, other people to live the way I live" type of reasons. Those make no sense; they're just an egotistical fantasy.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
Please watch this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v_uF-jr5pM
If somebody wants to be like this. Fine with me. But without the medical support. Oh. And who will pay for the repairs of the vehicles and buildings?
If you think the medical support is expensive, take a look at what it costs to run police, courtrooms, and prisons.
Which by the way, how has drug prohibition stopped those people from obtaining and using drugs? Oh yeah, it didn't. So we'd have the same situation we have today, except without the astronomical costs of futilely trying to stop it. We would come out ahead. This is simple.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
"medical support" in this case sort of includes the other expenses as well...
War on drugs is indeed a waste of money.
My reaction was mainly about "finally recognizing that anything consenting adults want to do is NOT a crime" and then referring to the zombie on you tube.
As consenting adult you're simply not free to do whatever you want.
Privacy is terrorism.
Except he won't get a fair trial. He'd be ruled an "unlawful combatant", "terrorist", and "traitor" thus losing any rights from US citizenship or international treaty, and quickly shoved into a dark hole in the ground and/or executed after a secret military tribunal finds him guilty on all counts...
This is what happens when people allow anything because its (for national security, to fight terrorism, protect American lives, protect liberty/freedom abroad, [insert vague and acceptable sounding slogan here]). Just look at the "fair" treatment the Boston bombers got and the complete lack of media outrage over the heavy hand methods used against them and their family.
The US could also shoot down Snowden's aircraft "in error". People make mistakes.
Uh, my tinfoil hat isn't quite that tight...
I doubt the US government is going to murder hundreds of innocent people to get one whistleblower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epPD4GYZa_8&feature=youtube_gdata_player :(.
I don't know how this man(or anyone) can say such good things about Chavez!
better ask Bob Zmuda his location.
Poll after poll shows just under 50% Americans support giving up their basic civil rights to protect their security. Why?
Fat, docile cows. Bred to eat whatever their masters feed them and go quietly to the slaughterhouse. That is the new definition of freedom. These are different people to those greats who fought the American revolutions and established the US Constitution.
All of this wouldn't have happened if Snowden had remain anonymous.
A blog I run for the wealth
They quite literally murder thousands of innocent people every year with drone strikes and military action. I believe it is willfully ignorant to think that the US government has ANY qualms whatsoever about killing as many people as they see fit to suit their purposes, including Americans.
They quite literally murder thousands of innocent people every year with drone strikes and military action. I believe it is willfully ignorant to think that the US government has ANY qualms whatsoever about killing as many people as they see fit to suit their purposes, including Americans.
Again, you're mixing up unintended casualties with deliberate targeting. I've yet to see a case where the US has deliberately targeted somebody like a whistleblower for execution.
Sure, the US kills lots of people accidentally, and that is a bad thing. If you're concerned about that then I hope you don't fly, because if that is your concern ANY plane flying over international waters is in mortal peril, not just one that happens to have Snowden on-board. Ditto for anybody walking around in the Middle East / Afghanistan / Pakistan - any of them could be an accidental casualty in a drone strike.
Could the US deliberately target Snowden and then claim it is an accident? Sure. Has the US ever done anything like this in the past (specifically deliberately shooting down a plane carrying hundreds of innocent people to kill one target on-board)? Certainly not that I'm aware of. All indications are that when the US assassinates people they're usually suspected of terrorism and the US attempts to engage them with the least loss of other lives (they blow them up on a random road, and not in the middle of a shopping mall).
In your world. And in your fanciful mockup of what the U.S. government is. But why litter the discussion with fantasy jabber?
The definition of a snitch is somebody who 'tattles' on their peers. The NSA is not a member of Snowden's peer group. He didn't tattle on the NSA to the school principal.
You need to find a better 'bad word' to call Snowden. Be creative. I am sure with your furious demeanor about the dude, you can come up with something.
Unless it is a case of "if/after I die you can eat my corpse" you'll run into a Catch 22 of informed consent. Anyone who is willing to be killed and eaten is judged of unsound enough mind that they can't give informed consent.
polygamy is detrimental to society.
Don't think so? Give all the rich, mostly men, fifteen wives each, lower the amount of available wives for the poor, and see how they respond.
I would guess it would be messy. And violent.
Not if you also change your insane political system to Shariah :-)
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Have him hold out til the next election...
Seriously? Do you think Russia and America are going to antagonize each other militarily at this point in their relationship?
Sinking a submarine of either side could start a nuclear war. Putting Snowden on a Russian military ship alone would be extremely provocative and undo lots of cooperation on things ranging from wearing down Canada's arctic claims to the mutual oil business in the Caspian Sea. Nobody on either side at the equivalent level of the cabinet and above would pursue such plans.
You are the one oversimplifying things, my self-centered American friend. 1% of lawyers are nice but that doesn't mean we can't say they belong at the bottom of the sea. Americans are ignorant propaganda fed consumers with little to no concept of civics - NOT EVERYBODY just far too many of them.
I'm a natural born American. Lived in the USA all my life too. I'm so flattered that I'd be mistaken for a European! ;-)
I've been in the working poor in America too. They are nowhere near what passes for poor in other parts of the world. The unemployed poor have it bad and the illegals can have it even worse.
Americans, being so proud of their "democracy" have to take crap about what THEIR government does. You are not innocent. There is more than just voting in another rigged election (and I mean rigged in most interpretations too.)
You need to listen to foreigners who have legitimate gripes and ARE doing more than you by confronting the people who are part of the problem-- even if it is just one citizen. Taking on American tourists and trying to open some eyes (or just encouraging Americans to travel outside their bubble) is doing more than your single vote for candidate Arsenic or candidate Nicotine.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Being chased for denouncing the wrong-doings of the USA government and then being offered political asylum in Venezuela. Sounds like a paedophile offering a kid a place to hide from another paedophile.
As consenting adult you're simply not free to do whatever you want.
"Consenting adults" means "no one who did not consent prior to the activity was affected by it". Missing that second part fails the status of "consenting". I didn't view the Youtube video. However, if said "zombie" threatened, menaced, harmed, defrauded, or stole from anyone in any way, that also fails the status of "consenting".
If it is not in any way made to be your problem, on what grounds would you stop someone from doing something? Either we're a free people or we're a bunch of hypocrites who would do well to stop celebrating the "land of the free".
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
polygamy is detrimental to society. Don't think so? Give all the rich, mostly men, fifteen wives each, lower the amount of available wives for the poor, and see how they respond. I would guess it would be messy. And violent.
That means the gold-diggers (legal prostitutes) who don't have the first clue what love really is are the first to become unavailable. That would be a favor to those who aren't filthy rich.
There may be reasons to envy rich people, but this isn't one of them.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
It is great to say consenting adults should be a allowed to take drugs (somewhere in the beginning of this thread), but the people affected by using hard drugs, alcohol abuse or texting while driving hardly were consenting.
In general others will always be affected by it so as a rule of thumb many actions will fail the status of consenting.
So "consenting adults" is a very hypothetical concept that is meaningless in daily life.
Well. Maybe not totally. There is the law and by law we consent to that.
As for "land of the free". The rest of the world did not consent to the consequences of that fiction either.
Privacy is terrorism.
It is great to say consenting adults should be a allowed to take drugs (somewhere in the beginning of this thread), but the people affected by using hard drugs, alcohol abuse or texting while driving hardly were consenting. In general others will always be affected by it so as a rule of thumb many actions will fail the status of consenting. So "consenting adults" is a very hypothetical concept that is meaningless in daily life. Well. Maybe not totally. There is the law and by law we consent to that. As for "land of the free". The rest of the world did not consent to the consequences of that fiction either.
If you use a "hard drug" and become addicted to it and can afford your habit, that's your problem. If you have to steal to support your habit, you should be tried and convicted for theft, not for possessing the drug. If you use a drug and get behind the wheel of a car and are measurably impaired in your ability to drive that car, you should be tried and convicted for driving while under the influence, not for possessing a drug.
Theft and endangering random strangers are actual crimes with actual victims. Having something in your pocket that other people disapprove of is not a crime and has no victim. That is the meaning. Your claim that it is "meaningless" is demonstrably false.
If you are hostile to this idea and are simply unwilling to consider its merits, that's fine but I would appreciate if you were more honest about it. I would like to think I am perfectly objective all of the time but I know it cannot be so. I probably have topics I'm not completely reasonable about myself. I think it's important to be able to admit that; otherwise there is no hope of objectivity.
Now then, I believe my ideas about this are reasonable and able to stand on their own merits. They make sense: if you can be responsible and handle the consequences of your decisions, you get to do what you like -- if you cannot, society punishes you for victimizing others by failing to be responsible, not for some Puritannical disdain for the particular manner in which you failed. That's in isolation. When you compare this against the current War on Drugs that obviously fails to stop drug use (for this reason alone it should be ended), it's better still. We would have a healthier society by not continuing to conduct expensive Constitution-shredding campaigns (WoD has all but destroyed the 4th amendment because it's unenforcable otherwise) that are obviously not working.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
If you use a "hard drug" and become addicted to it and can afford your habit, that's your problem.
No. I totally agree, but how often does that happen?
Having something in your pocket that other people disapprove of is not a crime and has no victim.
I see your point, but my point is that there are so many ifs and buts that the discussion about "consenting adults" is mainly a theoretical discussion. Reality is different. In daily life people are just not free to do what they want. In general, yes, but not as a rule. Take gay marriage between two consenting adults.
Most drug users are not able to support their need by them selves and cause many problems for society. Or to put it, they're not able to behave along the line of consenting adults so no freedom of drug use.
Apart from that, the war on drugs is a waste of money. Is that money was spent on prevention, drugs related crime and taking care (basic shelter, clean needles, some medical care) of the drug user. there would probably even be a lot of money left for these people: http://www.infowars.com/101m-americans-get-food-aid-from-federal-govt/
Privacy is terrorism.
Seriously? Do you think Russia and America are going to antagonize each other militarily at this point in their relationship?
No, hence the reason I said, "The US wouldn't shoot down a Venezuelan diplomatic aircraft, and they certainly aren't going to fire on a Russian Alfa during peacetime in international waters."