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US Promises Not To Kill Or Torture Snowden
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The WSJ reports that Attorney General Eric Holder promises Edward Snowden won't be tortured or face the death penalty in a new letter hoping to persuade Russia not to grant him asylum or refugee status. Holder's letter, dated Tuesday, notes that press reports from Russia indicated Snowden sought asylum in part based on claims he could be tortured or killed by the US government. It is common for the US to promise not to seek the death penalty against individuals being sought in other countries, because even America's closest allies won't turn over suspects if they believe that person might be executed. The United Nations special rapporteur on torture found Bradley Manning's detention was 'cruel and inhuman'." Update: 07/27 13:15 GMT by T : Several readers have noted that change.gov, established by the Obama transition team in 2008, has recently (last month) gone offline; among other things, it contained language specifically addressing the protection of whistleblowers.
Get it? They said OR, so that's not a lie.
Waterboarding was torture in Vietnam.
But not anymore!
well its seems torture *and* kill is still on the table then...
never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
They just want to give him some hot chocolate and make sure the bad Russians weren't mean to him.
As an American, it breaks my heart that my fellow citizens are okay with indefinite detention and torture, and with the wiretapping which violates our constituation's 4th amendment.
It's a small comfort that our government is facing trouble abroad because of those policies.
Those Romanians who are holding him for us.... What were they thinking?!!
-- Adolf Hitler's promise, 1938.
The USA does not need to do the torture, it can send the person to another country and have them do it.
"Oh, we have clearly misspoken."
First off we Snowden should get the Nobel of Peace . HIs actions revealed Government wrongdoings like Ellsberg did 40 years ago. .. not Snowden.
They are heroes to the People . The Government is the traitor and criminal here
Second : the fact a Government promises not to torture of kill someone is a sign that things are gone terribly wrong.
Torture and murder are now " normal course of business " for the US Government. Democracy is dead.Government out of control.
Nothing will keep Snowden from assasination.Extreme right wing nutjobs ( yes , right wing republicans ) will subsidise hit men to kill him.
There's few chances for him to stay alive . To be promised not to be murdered or tortured , but a life in jail for blowing the whistle on illegal and reprehensible Government conduct is totally immoral. Democracy is dead in the US . The land of Freedom ? HA ! Let me laugh.
Anyone saying " ok i go back " would be a total fool and idiot.
they are no better than any other criminal organization, they are frauds, they embezzle, steal, mass murdering and genocidal war criminals
US Inmates have a significant reduced expectation of life, not only due to medical treatment with pentobarbi KCL and poison, but also due to bad nutrition and in case of lifeterm, hopelessness and depression.
Our government refuses to admit that waterboarding, sleep-deprivation, and blasting a person with loud music for days on end are "torture". So them claiming they won't "torture" someone is a pretty weak commitment.
Obama promised not to scramble jets to get Snowden and two days later he forced a presidential plane down on suspicions that Snowden might be onboard. Of course, technically he didn't lie as he did this by his european puppet proxies. Eric Holder is even worse than Obama - overtly corrupt as contrasted to typical politicians who at least try to look honest. If he says he "won't torture nor kill", this is propably on the table. US of A desperately wants to make an example of Snowden - even if it will be messy and incur severe political costs. Those fucks want to prevent future whistleblowers by setting example now painful it is to have spine and resist criminal behavior of US government or US corporations.
USA = TERRORISTS
and if some should to get killed this is definitely NSA executives, they so deserved it.
Is the American government so oppressive that if you speak the Truth, people assume that the government will kill and/or torture you? The government has to step up and say, "We will not Kill or torture."
Freedom of Speech is only one of the freedoms which is gone. People know it. Yet nothing is being done to bring them back.
Snowden is my hero for saying the Truth. Emerson and Thoreau would be proud. Snowden's name is going to come up when I teach Transcendentalism to this year's students.
That last sentence made me thing of posting AC, but I now have the strength to speak the truth also.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
He will merely be given "Enhanced Detention".
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
They're just going to hold him naked in solitary like Manning...subject to "suicide checks" by waking him every half hour...
I'm sure it's very comforting for any other potential whistleblower to know that they'd only face life imprisonment and/or various harsh punishments that fall technically short of whatever the US government thinks is torture.
Really, what are the promises of the US worth nowadays?
The government of the USA wants to reduce the likelihood of more whistle-blowers exposing what they are really up to. The best way to do this is to show to any potential whistle-blowers that if they do then their life will not be pleasant: a boring, long, incaceration is the best way of doing this; it will put most people off.
Edward Snowden is a celebrity at the moment, being in the public eye will be attractive to some, regardless of the reality of living in an airport (or sofa in the Ecuadorian embassy in the case of Assange). If Snowden is killed or tortured he will be seen as a martyr, again this may be attractive to some. I am not saying that this is for everyone, but it may put some attention seekers off (I am not trying to imply that Snowden is an attention seeker).
Also: by making the no kill/torture promise it raises the bar for Snowden's various applications for political assylum.
US has no reason to torture Snowden, unless they want to extract their own secrets out of him. US government is out for revenge, plain and simple. Trial in some secret court, followed by a lifetime behind bars as punishment for exposing illegal government activities.
Due to the NSA wiretapping, this comment has now been self-censored
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/dutch-court-blocks-extradition-to-us-of-dutch-pakistani-terror-suspect/2013/07/23/2a86a15a-f37b-11e2-81fa-8e83b3864c36_story.html
This is the same Eric Holder that lied under oath before congress about targeting members of the press, and before that lied under oath before congress about fast and furious, and before that lied under oath before congress about the dropping of the case against the New Black Panther Party.
Eric Holder is well known to lie while under oath. Now when he is not under oath, Snowden is supposed to believe him? Give me a break.
Fuck Eric Holder, a fuck this whole god damned completely corrupt administration.
"His name was James Damore."
Define torture. Is it what they did to Manning? Is life in the SHU torture? Is being forced to kneel on concrete for minutes and hours on end torture? Is being slammed into the back of an all metal transport vehicle which has its muffler removed or better yet, made unbelievably loud and driven around for hours and hours and hours in the baking heat, manacled and chained so you can't stop yourself from being tossed around torture? Is being shoved in a transport plane, blindfolded, diapered chained to a seat so tightly you permanently lose feeling in your hands and feet , unable to move a muscle and "transported": in that one excruciatingly painful position for 30 hours while the plane is delayed" and "plans change" torture? Because according to Cheney and Rumsfeld and the other torturers , none of that is torture. The fact that the US IS going to torture Snowden if they get a hold of him is the best reason to not let them get a hold of him and when I say them I mean us. Whatever you think of Snowden's actions, -not a choice I would have made btw- he's not acting against the U.S. as an enemy. Even people who ARE enemies don't deserve to be tortured. Useless as a truth elicitor, it inflicts long-term damaging to the foreign policy interests of any nation that uses it (Thtnks Cheney!) torture ought to be relegated to the imaginations of just ordinary people who are, you know, very mad about something they see on TV . It has no place in the conduct of real people in the real world.
I live in Denmark. Last summer, my girlfriend's cousin from the U.S. came and spent a week visiting. I don't remember exactly which state he was from, but it was either Alabama or Arkansas. It was one of the states in the south, and its name started with the letter A, for what it's worth.
While he was here, we got to talking about world events at one point. The topic of torture came up during this discussion, and he had some, at least from our perspective, very unusual views with respect to it.
His basic premise was that it's only torture if it involves, using his words, the "cock and balls" of a victim.
We asked him to explain this rationale in more detail, since we Scandinavian-raised individuals had some trouble fully understanding it at first. We asked him if waterboarding was a form of torture, and he emphatically said that it was merely a form of interrogation, and surely not torture. We asked him if other methods of inducing physical and psychological pain were torture, and again he insisted they were nothing but legitimate interrogation techniques, just as long as they didn't involve the person's "cock and balls".
He then explained that even electrocuting the genitals of Iraqis was not torture, although it involved their scrotums. His reasoning was that because they were not American, that their genitals were not subject to his definition of torture. Only an American man's penis and scrotal sac could be subjected to torture, according to him.
We asked him if was possible to torture a woman. His answer was essentially that it is possible, just as long as she's an American and has "cock and balls".
Some of us laughed at this, because we thought he was just joking around. But he wasn't. He was serious, and we were then quite taken aback.
I don't know how widespread these views are in America. But if a better-traveled and even somewhat educated American holds such unusual, if not outright contradictory, opinions, then it really makes me wonder about those who have a much more limited perspective.
No torture, neither death penalty, right. They will just send him to jail for the rest of his life, because he dared defend the US constitution against the corrupted (I mean corrupted as ill-behaving) government.
That seems quite enough to grant him asylum.
1. The US should not have to be in a position where they are making such promises. The Eighth Amendment was created specifically to put a stop to the sort of thing that the US is now promising not to do. It's sort of like announcing, completely seriously, "I swear I'm not a murderer!" - that's usually a signal you're at least involved in something you shouldn't be.
2. Nobody seriously believes those promises after what the US has done to Bradley Manning, Anwar Al-Awlaki, and what they tried to do to Julian Assange. When Julian Assange argued that the US could no longer be trusted to follow its own laws and promises and international commitments, that argument may have seemed ludicrous, but it is increasingly becoming common opinion. Another example of the US's lawlessness is that they convinced France to force Bolivian president Evo Morales to land so they could search his plane for Snowden, violating all sorts of diplomatic rules to do so.
3. The US is going up against Vladimir Putin's Russia in a battle of human rights records, and losing. That's just astounding.
I am officially gone from
He's from Arkabama any you believed anything he said?
Well, it's good to know this fine citizen of our country would be OK if he was interrogated by having someone use a soldering iron on his eyeball, or a garden variety power drill on his teeth, or inserting a fishhook enema (be careful of his balls, we wouldn't want to torture him!)
And I suppose any women are really up an interrogation creek without a paddle.
... must be rolling their eyes.
Thank goodness Snowden has found a country that respects whistleblowers.
I am not trying to imply that Snowden is an attention seeker
But you know damn well that he is.
Bill Black: Is it Legal Malpractice to Fail to Get Holder to Promise Not to Torture your Client?
Read more at
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/07/bill-black-is-it-legal-malpractice-to-fail-to-get-holder-to-promise-not-to-torture-your-client.html#8u9CoYOjvy1XhV8k.99
The U.S. government is already torturing Snowden by revoking his citizenship, by making threats to any country that might let him stay. Most Americans feel that Snowden is a whistle-blower, not a traitor. Yet, the government continues to treat him like a criminal. It's despicable that a government by the people for the people would not have the people's best interest in mind.
Let's face the facts, the government in this country has become corrupt with power, and merely pointing out that the government is corrupt has become some kind of treason, yet nobody is doing anything about it. People are slowly handing over more and more power to their government.
"US promises not to torture or kill Snowden." Yeah, right. They also promised they weren't spying on their own citizens until Snowden disclosed that they were. They also promise that they don't assasinate their own citizens, but maybe that missle that killed Anwar al-Awlaki fired itself. Numerous groups, including the International Red Cross have charged the US with torturing prisoners at numerous facilities, but the US denies the charges, but not the techniques used. Why? Because they have classified the techniques in question as interregation techniques, but not torture.
So, yes, the US may promise not to torture or kill Snowden, but when the US changes the definition of torture to suit its purpose and has a recent history of outright dishonesty in related matters, why should anybody believe them? And what if Russia does turn Snowden over and the US is lying? Can Russia get Snowden back? No, of course not.
The US may promise not to torture or kill Snowden, but actions speak louder than words. The words of the US say one thing, the actions something totally different.
They promised "NOT(KILL XOR TORTURE)", they will happily do both.
Remember the Falcon and the Snowman case in the 1970s? Falcon was given a fair trail, and sentenced to a long term in prison. Then he somehow managed to miraculously esacape, and was never seen again.
One wonders is something like that might happen to Snowden. Boy, that would sure be too bad!
First, the United States would not seek the death penalty for Mr. Snowden should he return to the United States.
Translation: We will not "seek" it, but we don't guarantee that he won't get it. It's up to the judge who does the actual sentencing.
The charges he faces do not carry that possibility, and the United States would not seek the death penalty even if Mr. Snowden were charged with additional, death penalty-eligible crimes
Translation: We haven't yet charged him with treason for "aiding the enemy" yet, as we did with Manning, but we will. However when he is charged with treason it's up to the judge to sentence him to death. The prosecutor doesn't do the actual sentencing.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Why such a promise? Can I read this as a confirmation by the USA that they've tortured other people?
It doesn't have to be like this. All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.
It's amazing how much Bin Laden changed our country, for the worse. In just a few years we openly torture (something George Washington wouldn't allow and hadn't since the founding of the country), publicly kill Americans and others and of course spy on the entire population.
He may be dead, but we lost so much to the weak minded choices of our political weenies in Washington (the prior administration coming up with these awful choices and then the current one not stopping them so the become "the new normal" in perpetuity - its amazing what he changed our country into via our politicians.
This promise is just as valid as their oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States. Should Snowden enter into US custody, he will be beaten, tortured, and suffer an unfortunate fatal "accident" in Gimto.
>"US Promises Not To Kill Or Torture Snowden""
I can't believe how sad it is that such a letter would ever be necessary coming from the USA. I am so ashamed to be an American since 9/11. A land where everyone is treated as a potential terrorist and the government has destroyed the Constitution the country was built on.
I suspect this guy does not have the intelligence to give you the correct time of day, let alone the US's views on tourture. There may be others who share his beliefs, but I'm sure their IQs are all in the single digit range.
I don't remember exactly which state he was from, but it was either Alabama or Arkansas. ... His basic premise was that it's only torture if it involves, using his words, the "cock and balls" of a victim. ... I don't know how widespread these views are in America. But if a better-traveled and even somewhat educated American holds such unusual, if not outright contradictory, opinions, then it really makes me wonder about those who have a much more limited perspective.
The Cock and Balls theory I have not heard from anyone. I'm from Texas, many of my relatives are so bat shit crazy and willfully ignorant that they believe the US president was born in Kenya, but they have not said anything about cock and balls. If your friend said this, he is not educated and a plane ticket to Europe does not make someone worldly. This sounds like a case of a backwards yokel with extremist views.
and that resulted in trips to Egypt where, surprisingly, promises made by Americans hadn't registered. However, they were happy to do what the the Americans implicitly expected them to do (which could only be things they could not do while imprisoning them in America).
The promise is a specific stipulation. Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights bars Britain and the other signatories from extraditing prisoners if they could face capital punishment. There is no death penalty in any of the 15 member nations of the European Union.
This is an attempt to eliminate willing participation of these 15 EU member states, and other states with similar laws and policies, as potential havens for Snowden on the basis of a possible U.S. death penalty or torture of the extradited person.
See: http://www.deathpenaltyworldwide.org/extradition.cfm and: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/171/2001/en
The latter document is available in English, Spanish, and Arabic.
I would be interested in an approval rating poll comparing Obama, Snowden, and the current frontrunners for the Democratic and Republican nominations for the next election.
I wonder if any candidate has run for the U.S. presidency from outside the U.S., perhaps in the early history of the country?
So when top US brands help with decryption, video, sound, plain text - just for legal foreign "metadata"? :)
Time to rethink the 4th Amendment?
A UK or Australian style "Telecommunications Interception and Access Act" would be better then?
A more happy updated living document that understands the need for changes?
The employees could then sit, listen, watch and read with less of the
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." to distract them?
http://cryptome.org/2013-info/06/whistleblowing/whistleblowing.htm shows a few did speak out
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
The very fact that a member of your government actually has to promise that your state institutions will not torture someone goes a long way to show in what a sorry state your country is. It used to be consensus among developed nations that torture isn't even on the table, and now a high-ranking official actually has to reassure russia (of all states) that he will get a fair trial. Back when you were a nation of laws that used to go without saying.
Even worse, no one believes it anymore. You have come a long way US of A and I for one mourn the loss :(
This is not a measure of how bad our government is becoming. The is now a measure of how stupid and blind the people of the US are. And the people who expect to earn a living as professional bullies, thugs and murderers? It's time for people to wake up and just say "no more." So far, everything they've got will not withstand the light of day and people simply saying "no" in large numbers. Everything they have are tricks for small numbers of people.
Who here thinks any of this is right or acceptable?
My God, someone sensible on Slashdot when it comes to this...I though I'd never see the day.
I suspect this guy doesn't actually exist.
You haven't heard of it because AC made it up. Amusing story, though.
Sadly Snowden is too young to run. But I wonder if he could get some sort of immunity by being elected to Congress? He might be able to win a seat in New Hampshire or some other live-free-or-die sort of state.
Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower. He stopped being that the moment he revealed classified information that did not concern what he was 'whistleblowing'. He has committed espionage, plain and simple, and Russia is only making sure they've got everything from him before they agree to return him. Plus, if anyone thinks there hasn't been some back-room negotiation between the US and Russia about any borderline people in the US that fled Russia to escape the same charges, you haven't paid attention to history.
>2013
>USA has to explicitly promise that it will not torture
This is what torture is not, according to the United States government.
Shouldn't not killing or torturing someone be default behavior. This would be like hiring staff and in their employment contract saying that you won't stab them to death with a sharpened chair leg. It sort of goes without saying in any civilized work place.
Now on the other hand you have to look at their loose definition of torture. Is waterboarding torture? Is 20 years of solitary torture? Are 20 interrogations per day torture? Is putting someone who should be free, in jail torture? According to the white house the answer to all these is probably, no.
They have both repeatedly proven that they are liars.
They are a special kind of liar, though.
They pretend to be your "friend" and then they use your
confidence to screw you. Of course all they really wanted
was to fool people long enough to get into power, and after that
their power allows them to not care what people think.
Only a fool believes anything these two say from now on.
And Snowden is no fool.
The very fact that the government wants to go after Snowden
proves the US is now in the grip of swine who are substantively
worse than anything seen during the Viet Nam era. I would not have
imagined this was possible, but here we are in 2013 and there is
ample evidence to prove it is true.
+
I think it's pretty fucking sad when the US is obliged to promise explicitly, on a recurring basis, not to torture people.
Worse it's a pointless exercise. When your definition of torture excludes things like water boarding and sleep deprivation any promise not to torture is clearly meaningless.
I hope the lesson that other would-be whistleblowers will take home instead is to STAY ANONYMOUS. There is little glory in tying your name to the leaks, and it's certainly not worth the trouble. To some people it will even hurt your cause (accusations of "narcissist" etc.).
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
This is an attempt to eliminate willing participation of these 15 EU member states, and other states with similar laws and policies, as potential havens for Snowden on the basis of a possible U.S. death penalty or torture of the extradited person.
Well, speaking as an EU citizen, I would not be happy with any extradition until they promised not to torture him using the definition of torture used in the EU. American and English often have somewhat different meanings for the same word and sadly 'torture' appears to be one of them. Even then frankly I'm not sure I would not trust them to hold to that and not drag up some legal argument that they don't have to hold to their promise or else have an 'accident' occur.
I think this is were the US government orders one of its minions to torture and kill Snowden, laughing maniacally all the while.
Then Snowden cries "but, you promised not to kill me!"
And the government replies "And "I" won't."
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
I live in Denmark. Last summer, my girlfriend's cousin from the U.S. came ... on... m..y ... cock and balls...
... Scandinavian-raised individuals had some trouble fully understanding it at first.
... widespread ... more..
We
Some of us laughed at this, because we thought he was just joking around. But he wasn't. He was serious, and we were
Reading between the lines is my gift. Danes are weird.
I am not trying to imply that Snowden is an attention seeker
But you know damn well that he is.
He damm well better be. What's the point in exposing secret bugging on the planet if you're not going to bring it to everyone's attention? Because attention is the kryptonite to people who'd rather remain in shadow.
Time and time again Holder-Obama make lofty promises and they do the opposite.
In a short time the Obama Regime will begin a campaign of torture and killing of citizens within US boarders to appease its lust for the perception of absolute power.
By electing a violent sociopath like Obama, his efforts were to fill the non-elected government with sociopaths like himself.
couldn't they have done the same for Anwar al-Awlaki, another US citizen?
Equal justice under the law is a fallacy. Kinda makes you wonder if the tin foil hat people are right...
Russia is also a party to the European Convention on Human Rights, so the Strasbourg court can prevent it from extraditing Snowden if he can face the death punishment (less certain about torture, since Russia failed to ratify the relevant protocol). Holder is simply preparing his extradition request to Moscow.
The "spying on your people" thing is older than 9/11. The Prism slides start at 2000, it may have started by then, or earlier.
Rethinking email
I don't think you can blame it on libertarianism. It's Obama hate. They hate Obama so much that they seek to actively sabotage our national security apparatus.
I note with interest the USG did NOT promise to hold a speedy, fair public trial. And the point is not redundant any more than torture is.
I like to look for "negative knowledge" -- things that could reasonably have happened, and perhaps should have, but did not. Rejected options, certainly. While imperfect, this does yield insight.
Since Obama is now promising *not* to torture or kill (read murder) Snowden, then it sounds like those are their true intentions.
My karma is not a Chameleon.
The US administration enabled laws to allow holding people indefinitely without trial.
Congress and the Senate have made it clear that they don't care about the facts of the case: Snowden is guilty in their eyes.
Snowden would be a fool to leave Russia for some small country. Russia has nukes that will make the US think twice before pulling a "Bin Laden" on him.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I'll be writing in Snowden for U.S. Representative next election cycle. He represents my ideals as an American a hell of a lot better than Joe Kennedy (who voted to keep funding for the NSA the other day).
Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!
Vote for Bernie in 2016!
The US doesn't torture or kill _anyone_. So this isn't news.
Or at least be in a country without an extradition treaty and that won't cooperate with the US and extradite you even without a treaty. I might choose Cuba, Myanmar or maybe Laos or Indonesia. Possibly Venezuela except that they are vulnerable to oil sales extortion. Neither Russia nor China would have occured to me.
I don't think the people who are calling him an attention whore and all that really believe it. It's just what the government shills and apologists say about every whistle blower or leaker. Even staying anonymous might not prevent it. Besides was that really an option in this case? He was already under investigation for disappearing by the time he was in Hong Kong. It was only a matter of time before they guessed that it was him.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
"Why Americans aren't using their 2nd amendment rights already to get rid of all these corrupt fucks is beyond me."
Because for the majority of them, nothing is wrong. For the majority of them, as long as they got their food, their work, their entertainment, all is fine. The giov reassure them, "we willg et the traitor!". Snowden is the one disturbing them , he is shaking the status quo, making them see stuff they don't want to see. So they when psyop poo-poo snowden for some minor stuff, "his girlfriend is strange and some sort of stripper" then they forget the main point and dismiss snowden. Or Manning. or anybody disturbing them in their comfortable status quo. Mind you the US is not the only one in that situation. But it is the most flagrant in the US, after they were caught torturing, killing their own citizen, spying on the whole world, lying, lying and lying even more.
The only way the american will revolt, is if the middle and lower class get so much economic pressure that normal life get for them unviable. Then they will revolt. And their politics overlord might be stupid enough to let plutocrate of all ilk really destroy the middle and lower class enough that this will happen. But it will take at least a few more catastrophe like what happenned with the banks or 2 more decades of stagnation for the middle / low class.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
of oppressing their citizens in just this way. Now, a whistleblower, who can't be proven to have revealed even one explicit state secret (beyond the rather unshocking fact that they were being surveilled) to a foreign power is asking for asylum in Russia.
Times change, don't they.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
... says the AC who made up the story in the first place. I live in the southern US. I haven't even heard such a view - that nothing you can do that does not involve the "cock and balls" of an American man is torture - from the craziest rednecks I know. And they're crazy rednecks. I'd believe it if you claimed the dude said "Hell yeah it's torture, and I'll be first in line if they need help doing it!"
The transition has ended and the new administration has begun. Please join President Barack Obama at whitehouse.gov
So they're saying it took five years to "transition" the White House from the Bush Administration the Obama administration?
If the transition has "ended," then Obama is taking responsibility for the administration's programs and not hiding behind, "that program started in the Bush administration?"
The administration's "agenda" was stated on that site and included:
Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.
So they're saying whistleblowers were only needed to end abuse of authority in programs enacted by previous administrations, and after five years of encouraging whistleblowers the programs left standing are the ones Obama says are OK?
Or maybe, just maybe, the administration took that page down so they could mail it to Putin as proof that Snowden's claims for asylum were baseless.
"The transition has ended and the new administration has begun." With the above questions in mind, that statement is extra creepy. Welcome to the new administration. Remember, the new administration loves you, and you love the new administration.
Sure they won't torture him. Physically.
They will torture the absolute fuck out of him mentally, however. And probably use some NSA magic pill to make him forget it. (or threaten to have his family attacked by some crazed horny junky if he mentions it once.)
This is MURRICA, nobody crosses her and lives.
~ No, he's not...
~ Yes he is too!
~ No, he's not, I promise you, Obama is not going to kill Eddie.
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
...I doubt many feel the same way about AG Holder!
I hope the lesson that other would-be whistleblowers will take home instead is to STAY ANONYMOUS.
His rationale was that the tools and techniques he knew perfectly well were sufficient for tracking him down, so outing himself
So far I don't see myself in a position to say his judgment was in error, even with the benefit of hindsight.
A promise from the US not to torture is essentially worthless. It's not legally allowed to torture as it is, so it just reclassifies what it counts as torture. Something the rest of the world abhorrs.
We all know they will kill him, just like they killed Michael Hastings.
I voted for Obama specifically to send the message that the first election win was not a fluke - that people really did prefer a black man and a doofus (Biden) over the other party's offerings.
I did not vote for a third party because even if everyone who wanted a third party voted third party, there are not enough votes to get that third party elected. Especially because there isn't just one third party. To have a viable third party, we all need to agree who that party is, and then be convinced that we won't accidentally vote for the worst candidate via the Nader effect.
When you put together a viable third party ticket without viable fourth and fifth parties, on whom enough of the discontented can agree, and still loses, you can puke.
Libertarian Party - on the ballot in 48 states and D.C., 1.2 million votes = 1%. Short of 400,000 registered members. For a 3-way split, you would need to sway 39 million other people to support it - which means roughly 67 million supporters, with 58% turnout.
Doing the math, it is much more likely to be a spoiler vote. I don't see getting 67 million people to change their party affiliation. Let's change that to just the voters, so 39 million people. How many of those would vote for a third party if they were guaranteed not to be a spoiler vote? I think half is very generous, so you're still at convincing 20 million people. It's just not going to happen in time for the next election unless something super serious happens.
And conveniently, Snowden is that huge thing that could change peoples' outlooks on the government and the parties. Just as conveniently, this will all be forgotten in time for the next campaign - again, unless the Libertarian party takes huge gambles on public sentiment, and wins.
Green party got less than half of the Libertarians despite getting on the ballot in 36 states. It's even more unlikely to be a contender, and more likely to spoil the third party vote.
THAT would be a real statement.
Geeze, you're just full of conspiracy theories, aren't ya?!?! Not every AC is every other AC, you know!
I'm from Montgomery, and I've heard the cock-and-ball-torture theory before. There are enough people round these parts who believe it. I agree that it's a form of torture, but I don't think that it's the only form. Any time that somebody is involuntarily subjected to pain in order to get info or to break his or her spirit, then I can consider it to be torture.
The us tortures by claiming horrific torture isn't... torture. The US implements ex post facto laws by claiming some of the worst punishment meted out isn't... punishment. The US subverts the 4th amendment by claiming that the word reasonable isn't part of the amendment, but rather, the entire meaning of the amendment. Also that within 100 miles or so of the US borders, it doesn't apply anyway. The US judiciary has taken over control over the constitution by usurping article 5 powers nowhere made available to them. The US has completely inverted the commerce clause. The US engaged in Viet Nam by faking the GUlf of Tonkin incident. The US engaged in Iraq by faking information about weapons of mass destruction. The executive, congress and the judiciary repeatedly and regularly violate their oaths of office. The US promised to never use the social security number for anything but its citizens retirement account. And so on.
Any government that take a US promise to "not torture" seriously must be made up of mental defectives.
He'll just die of a heart attack, or hang himself in his cell, while awaiting trial.
Not every AC is every other AC, you know!
No, but you are ;)
.. How long until someone gets sufficiently annoyed with all these bullshit shenanigans, and starts killing off corrupt politicians, leaving behind on their deceased corpses notes with fancy political catchphrases such as "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" or "It's all for the children". Wouldn't that be ironic?
It's not whistleblowing when state secrets are taken out of the country. Unless of course you consider China and Russia BFFs of the U.S. ROFLBBQ!!!!!!!
Am I the only one here who finds it odd that our government officials specifically pointed out that Snowden would not be tortured? Is that not something that should not have even had to be said? Sounds like anyone who was involved in preparing this public statement should now come under investigation on suspicion of torturing prisoners, since it sounds like they are implying that torture is perfectly normal here despite being a blatant violation of the Eight Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
This space unintentionally left blank.
...the USA are like the bullies telling you "come out, I am totally not beat you up...seriously...." *turns around to buddies and snickers*
seriously, who is gonna fall for that again?
Regarding the edit: I don't really think removing the change.gov content was a move to avoid disclosing policy on whistleblowers. You can find discussion about whistleblower protections in even greater detail on whitehouse.gov. Example: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/image/ppd-19.pdf . Came up after a simple search for "whistleblowers".
I didn't read every last word of the PDF, so I can't certify whether it follows the spirit of the original paragraph on change.gov. It seems to limit protected whistleblowing to information shared up the chain of command instead of with the public. Makes me wonder if they know what the word "whistleblower" means. Still, it's certainly more official than a campaign promise, and it's readily available.
hey was just fucking with them. there so aspie they cant tell.
This is the same government that specifically said it was not running the exact kind of spy program Snowden described? The same government that had authorized robotic drones to spy on and kill it's own citizens?
Well I for one trust them, let's bring him home, what could go wrong?
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let's face it, we cant trust what the government says.
a list of summarized lies and realities:
"the first thing i'll do is close guantanamo bay" - didnt happen, still open.
"we do not torture" - because we renamed it "enhanced interrogation" or "rendition" them to other countries
"there is no drone program" - not long after "oh, we have a drone program"
"we do not have a program to collect information from everyone" - not long after "well, i tried to tell the least untruth" and seriously, PRISM is the least untruth?
i'm just waiting for the NSA to get busted using PRISM freely on anyone and everyone.
there is a good deal of criminal activity from congressmen and their friends that have gone completely unpunished and the police have abused the hell out of the PATRIOT act.
how far we have fallen.
B.I.H. Constitutional rights (R.I.P. is so OVER)
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Manning was just a pissed off employee who was on his way out and did everything he possibly could to get back at his boss; nothing more.
Snowden on the other hand is showing ethical behavior. Even though PRISIM is explicitly legal under the Patriot Act, unfortunately.
>I did not vote for a third party because even if everyone who wanted a third party voted third party, there are not enough votes to get that third party elected
And there's the rub - currently somewhere between 50%-60% of Americans don't vote. If a third party could inspire even half of the non-voters into voting for them they'd have the election in the bag, even if all the regular voters voted D or R. And if you wouldn't have voted otherwise you can't possibly cast a "spoiler vote".
What I'd like to see is the major third-parties coordinating with each other to go after the apathetic/disillusioned could-be voters - a sort of "throw the bums out" campaign with their combined resources going into a unified, sustained media message designed to get the non-voters out voting for *any* third party candidate in protest. I think such a thing has a fair chance of making a real difference, better than anything else I've been able to think of.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Get it? They said OR, so that's not a lie.
Let's see how much I remember from logic class... they said they will !Kill v Torture Snowden:
!K|K|T|!TvK
------------
0|1|1| 1 <--
0|1|0| 0
1|0|1| 1
1|0|0| 1
Heh, he's right ... torturing AND killing Snowden is an option.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
Just posted up by a news agency today, after a court case last week.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8972743/US-spy-agencies-eavesdrop-on-Kiwi
Remember, democracy only works with fair and unbiased media coverage. I'm embarrassed to be a kiwi when my media publish findings such as these.
prove otherwise.
I would advise the Russians to be wary of the US governments chicanery. 30 years in prison is a long time and would hurt bad enough that I would equate it to torture.
Obama loves whistle blowers. He said as much before he was elected. He also said when we can't trust government that we are really in trouble. So he would never tell a lie and of course would never defy his oath to office and would of course uphold the constitution. Obama wouldn't wipe his ass on the US constitution . He wouldn't really be a tyrant and a traitor in disguise as our beloved President who suppressed and silenced news reporters ability to report on him and his crimes against the American people. He even got a Nobel Peace prize so of course he couldn't be keeping Guantanomo bay open and of course he is not even going to lock away whistle blowers without fair and just trial as terrorists or enemy combatants. And of course he'd never just send in a drone to kill an American by remote control.
I think it should be we the people who should be promising not to kill and torture the head of the NSA and anyone else involved in this disgusting mess.
It really doesn't matter if the middle and lower classes revolt and march on Washington with their firearms.
The arms allowed to be possessed by the government are no match for the arms which could potentially be used by the US government against its citizenry. Partial list: Full auto weapons, ordnance, drones, chemical weapons and H-Bombs. Do you think puny little pistols, rifles and shotguns would be effective against those?
Do you think that the rest of the world will stand up to the US if they get a bit heavy-handed with their citizenry?
Any change will need to happen in a more subtle way.
As a U.S. citizen, it really bothers me that other countries think they need to ask that the U.S. won't torture prisoners.
Since the death penalty is legal in the U.S., I can understand why other countries check on that. (Personally, I would like to see the death penalty abolished in the U.S.)
So you voted for the other guy to make a point, but you thought that voting for the third party candidate wouldn't make a point?
Americans really are retarded. Enjoy your Fascism.
Dear Mr, and Mrs. Snowden,
We're sorry to report that your son, Edward Snowden had had a bathing accident and died.
He slipped on a bar of soap and hit his head.
Sincerely,
U.S. Gulag System
P.S. We didn't kill or torture him.
Sure because the sitting government promised not to use NDAA provision for indefinite detention and fought to keep it on the legal battlefield.
I hate the fact that the Democratic and Republican parties have left basic morality to chase money. I'm never voting Libertarian though. Until I see a party that embraces honesty, both within and without, I'll take the dubious pleasure of voting for a party that will probably screw me less.
Space Shuttle was a program that strapped humans to an explosion and tried to stab through the sky with fire and math
Jimmy Carter Defends Snowden, Says U.S. Has No "Functioning Democracy".
Change.gov is down? As a foreigner i'm amazed by the speed of your country's collapse into the black hole of authoritarianism.
Don't want to flamebait but how can someone blame people for being anti-americanist? This sentiment is growing stronger by the day for me. Against your government, of course, mind you.
I did not vote for a third party because even if everyone who wanted a third party voted third party, there are not enough votes to get that third party elected.
It's amazing how effective the DNC and RNC have been in pressuring people not to vote for third parties. It's not like it's some horse race that you lose money on if you don't vote for the winner.
The national conventions are the best people in the country at changing public opinion, and everyone believes that a 3rd party vote is "wasted". It's scary actually how people believe this. It makes me wonder if they couldn't get you all to believe that underwear is dangerous if they wanted to. If it kept them in power you'd all probably be walking around half naked by next week.
Third party votes ARE NOT INEFFECTIVE. They are so effective that the national conventions has given out plenty of excuses for everyone to pick from. The fact is, 3rd party votes change the national discussion, and that changes policy regardless of who is holding office.
Before the last election, was anyone discussing legalizing drugs? No.
Before the last election, did anyone care about budgets and financial policy? No.
Before the last election, were there any debate questions about the limited power of the federal government? No.
Third parties and lobbies make these things happen. You might not know how many people actually wrote in alternative candidate names, but the people writing next year's national convention platform know that number very accurately and want those votes.
Not only this, but as someone who has lived in countries with systems designed to encourage small parties (NZ, DE), I have seen the difference it can make. The third parties almost never get into government (it can happen, but it is not the point of voting for them), instead what happens is the bigger parties change their policies to try to capture the votes off them. We have two big parties that are within a few percentage points of each other. One election some newcomers calling themselves the pirate party suddenly get a few percent of the vote after being basically unheard of until then. Their platform is based on internet neutrality. The media starts talking about internet neutrality. The big parties start wondering if it would be clever to start developing internet neutrality policies in order to pull those few percent. Those few percent would help big party X get ahead of big party Y, and wouldn't effect their current voter base much. Suddenly the small party has changed government policy without even getting into power.
If a third party candidate in the US got 10% of the vote, the entire political campaign system would shift into a new gear and start trying to pander directly to those 10%.
Take off his clothes, keep the light on, and check every half hour if he is still a full 18 on the Glasgow Coma Scale. I love that scale: "Purposeful movement to painful stimulus" = 5 and "Withdraws from pain" = 4 but no we won't do that just "Obeys commands for movement" = 6
Then they would just kill him, immunity doesn't protect from "accidents".
Not to mention that even if this is a legitimate promise not to torture Snowden, it would be carried out under the administration's definition of what constitutes torture. Despite all the sound and fury, as far as I know the government's definition of torture has not changed since the Bush administration.
Eric, meet waterboard.
We are the 198 proof..
Oh yeah! There you have it..... What a good man Mr. Holder is. Has he ever lied to us before? Of course not as only a conspiracy theorist would think such a thing....wow!
... much.
Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
Uhm, yes, but... they could also simply decide not to keep their promise.
related: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMrJp_cQgOE
A terrorist is a freedom fighter who isn't on your side.
Casteism
It not we the people anymore, that is for sure.
Pretty sure the US Government is going through the classic 7 stages of grief. It appears they have arrived at the bargaining stage... which stage number is that again? Good news is that acceptance is coming up soon so everyone can finally move on.
Q: Does the world still trust the USA?
A: Not even as far as we could comfortably spit a rat.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/create
Casteism
The real motive behind the statement is to make us talk about Snowden, not about what he revealed.
If you can't attack the issue, attack the man.
Don't come back kid, you burned that bridge right down to the waterline.
If it's the government then it's a lie. Trust no one