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First Ever Public Tasting of Lab-Grown Cultured Beef Burger

vikingpower writes "Today, at 14:00 Western European Time (9:00 am Eastern), Professor Mark Post of Maastricht University (the Netherlands) will present a world first: he will cook and serve a burger made from Cultured Beef in front of an invited audience in London. The event will include a brief explanation of the science behind the burger. You can watch the event live, online. The project's fact sheet is to be found here (pdf)." The BBC is reporting that Sergey Brin is the mystery backer behind the project.

303 comments

  1. Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    This way they can produce human meat for canibals... and curious people asking if we taste like chicken to them.

    1. Re:Solving Canibalism by somersault · · Score: 2

      Human meat is much closer to pork.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    2. Re:Solving Canibalism by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Human meat is much closer to pork.

      That's why they call it "long pig".

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    3. Re:Solving Canibalism by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

      It's much closer to ape. By the way, how do you know it's like pork?

    4. Re:Solving Canibalism by somersault · · Score: 1

      How many people do you know that know what ape tastes like? I know, because I read.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:Solving Canibalism by arth1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      According to Idi Amin, human flesh tasted quite salty, even saltier than leopard.

    6. Re:Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real solution would be meat-donor cards.

      A bus runs over my head. My heart goes to some old guy, my kidneys to a drug abuser, and my muscle to a classy restaurant.

    7. Re:Solving Canibalism by radja · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Kosher bacon!

      if it's grown in a petridish, it's not from a pig, right?

      --

      No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
      --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
    8. Re:Solving Canibalism by lordofthechia · · Score: 1

      For those following this thread and really hoping someone will say it, the show is Better Off Ted .

      The episode from this quote is from Season 1 Episode 2. All around great show. Both seasons are on Netflix and Amazon prime instant streaming. If the first couple of episodes don't convince you, jump to season 1 episode 12 "Jabberwocky".

      --
      Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
    9. Re:Solving Canibalism by lordofthechia · · Score: 1

      Aww geeze. Ignore the above comment. Meant to post it further below.

      --
      Georgia Tech, the leader in Chia(tm) technology.
    10. Re:Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it cannibalism if i would grow meat from myself?

      and curious people asking if we taste like chicken to them.

      If you ever experience being close to a burn-victim, and i hope you never will, you will find out that we smell very close to barbecued pork... :P

    11. Re:Solving Canibalism by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      Logic would say you're right. Religion however... given the fact that it is invented and produced in the West, it will probably be declared "haram" by Muslims (like a Syrian rebel Sharia court outlawed croissants, as they supposedly celebrate victory over invading Muslims). But I'm rather curious about the Jewish verdict.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    12. Re:Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know because... wait, how do you know we taste like ape?

    13. Re:Solving Canibalism by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Great show. Shame it was canceled.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    14. Re:Solving Canibalism by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      That sounds like a preparation problem.

    15. Re:Solving Canibalism by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Baby: the other other white meat.

    16. Re:Solving Canibalism by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      It would depend on the source of all of the ingredients (or raw materials, as the case may be). It looks like this cultured beef is made from stem cells from a cow, so it would still be considered a cow product. Similarly, pork that's made in a lab from pig stem cells would still be not kosher.

    17. Re:Solving Canibalism by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      You shouldn't eat ape -- there's all kinds of potential for zoonosis. Consumption of bushmeat is considered a leading factor in the emergence of HIV.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    18. Re:Solving Canibalism by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. The specific prohibition is against cloven-hoofed animals that do not chew cud. An organism (or rather a biological assembly) in a dish has no cloven hooves.

      Leviticus Chapter 11:

      3:Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is wholly cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that may ye eat. 4:Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that only chew the cud, or of them that only part the hoof: the camel, because he cheweth the cud but parteth not the hoof, he is unclean unto you.

      There is the question of wether these laws apply to particular animal specimens, or to species (or rather the Biblical "kinds") -- I'm sure there's commentary on the issue. At some point some pig was born that had no legs, and some smart-aleck asked his rabbi if he could eat it.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    19. Re:Solving Canibalism by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Which part are you questioning, that lab-grown beef is kosher, or that lab-grown pork is not kosher? I can pretty much guarantee that lab-grown pork would be considered not kosher if it came from stem cells. The lab-grown beef part might be more interesting. As far as I know, any food derived from a kosher animal is kosher as long as none of the other laws are violated. Since the lab-grown beef is derived from the stem cells of a cow, it would be considered to be part of the cow. There might be other laws to consider, though. If the stem cells were taken from the blood, for example, that might be a reason for it to be considered not kosher.

    20. Re:Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it won't be kosher since it's not slaughtered according to Shechita...

    21. Re:Solving Canibalism by lefin1 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever heard of Pozole? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozole

    22. Re:Solving Canibalism by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I've heard lots of second and third hand accounts, but I've never heard from anyone who's actually eaten both.

    23. Re:Solving Canibalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would probably take a trip to Papua New Guinea to find out.

  2. There's a man .... by Cordus+Mortain · · Score: 5, Funny

    .... putting his money where his mouth is

    1. Re:There's a man .... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      Announcing Taco Bell's new Google Loco Taco.

  3. dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. Re:dupe by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      They can keep it.

      Hell, I'm just trying to eat beef/animal products that are more natural than the normal stuff you see in the grocery stores.

      I'd rather cut down my meat intake (quality over quantity), and have say beef, that is grass fed, allowed to eat what it normally eats, and not needing all the hormones and anti-biotics....

      I'm certainly not wanting to swing the complete other day and have synthetic "dead animal".

      Why are we trying to go so far away from foodstuffs that mother natures put on earth for us...?

      It isn't like most of us (in the west) are starving or anything.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    2. Re:dupe by Applekid · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They can keep it.

      Hell, I'm just trying to eat beef/animal products that are more natural than the normal stuff you see in the grocery stores.

      I'd rather cut down my meat intake (quality over quantity), and have say beef, that is grass fed, allowed to eat what it normally eats, and not needing all the hormones and anti-biotics....

      I'm certainly not wanting to swing the complete other day and have synthetic "dead animal".

      Why are we trying to go so far away from foodstuffs that mother natures put on earth for us...?

      It isn't like most of us (in the west) are starving or anything.

      I would argue that if it's possible to grow meat that's just as wholesome as grass-fed beef (arguably more so because it won't have any environmental contaminants at all) and at the same price, the practice of raising and killing of animals is no longer justified in the slightest. It's a morally tough call today as it is.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    3. Re:dupe by aethelrick · · Score: 1

      I don't find this to be "morally tough" at all. I like cows, they are tasty, thus I eat cows.

      What they make in the lab is simply not beef, it is tasteless protein. They have to add caramel, saffron and beetroot juice to it to try to make it look and taste of anything. Their is a lot more to a burger than protein. I don't think it is correct to refer to their pan fried protein as a burger

      it is an interesting experiment though, who knows maybe some day they'll be able to vat grow fillet steak, but until then, I'm out

    4. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would argue that if it's possible to grow meat that's just as wholesome as grass-fed beef (arguably more so because it won't have any environmental contaminants at all) and at the same price, the practice of raising and killing of animals is no longer justified in the slightest

      Yep, soon any animal currently bred for its meat will only be found in a few zoos. Makes you feel all warm and moral, don't it?

    5. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather cut down my meat intake (quality over quantity), and have say beef, that is grass fed, allowed to eat what it normally eats, and not needing all the hormones and anti-biotics....

      That's great but if everyone ate that way, even in less quantity there is just no way to do it. There just isn't enough space and resources to do it the correct natural way while still feeding the world population. It's physically and ecologically impossible.

    6. Re:dupe by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      It's a morally tough call today as it is.

      Sorry, I fail to see where morality enters into this argument at all...?

      Humans are just another variety of animal on this planet, like the rest of them, we eat, sleep, shit, fuck and make new little copies of ourselves.

      We just happen to be on the top of the food chain, and have a lot of choices on what to eat, picking from those lower than us on the food chain.

      There's nothing morally wrong with eating something lower than yourself on the food chain, that's they way nature made all of us animals.

      Somewhere along the line....people have gotten so abstracted from their food, they seem to forget this.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    7. Re:dupe by Applekid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a morally tough call today as it is.

      Sorry, I fail to see where morality enters into this argument at all...?

      Humans are just another variety of animal on this planet, like the rest of them, we eat, sleep, shit, fuck and make new little copies of ourselves.

      We just happen to be on the top of the food chain, and have a lot of choices on what to eat, picking from those lower than us on the food chain.

      There's nothing morally wrong with eating something lower than yourself on the food chain, that's they way nature made all of us animals.

      Somewhere along the line....people have gotten so abstracted from their food, they seem to forget this.

      Please don't misunderstand, I like meat and I eat it.

      But I'm not so abstracted from my food that I forget that it used to be a living thing, and that it's life was taken so that I could have nutrition (and useful byproducts like bone meal, glycerin, leather, etc). If we ever reach a level of technology where there are no health or taste reasons why a synthetic meat would be undesirable, I simply wouldn't ever buy meat that used to be alive.

      We're a unique animal that need not be limited to the "natural." It's natural to piss and shit wherever, but modern sanitation sets up some rules about how piss and shit are handled so we don't contaminate our living area or food and water supplies. It's natural to breed and have women spending their childbearing years perpetually pregnant from potentially many different men, but we as a society calm things down a bit because runaway breeding is unsustainable. We've gone far beyond our evolved instincts.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    8. Re:dupe by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2

      I would argue that if it's possible to grow meat that's just as wholesome as grass-fed beef (arguably more so because it won't have any environmental contaminants at all) and at the same price, the practice of raising and killing of animals is no longer justified in the slightest. It's a morally tough call today as it is.

      So what are you proposing? Are you in the least bit familiar with how cattle are raised, either the 'farmed' variety or the ranged variety?

      What exactly the alternative to killing and eating the cattle?

      I see three options, in light :
      1) Kill them all / exterminate them to the point of extinction
      2) Let 800-1500lb cows range free as 'wild animals', allowing them to die to extinction within a human generation due to how stupid and human dependent they are (but not before people are trampled and gored by the thousands due to cattle having no fear of men).
      3) put them all in zoos for the silly urban people

      I don't suppose anyone has even bothered to note the environmental cost or the scalability of this test tube beef process, either. If you think mass produced ethanol from biomass is tenuous, try this on for size... (And if you don't, you're not paying attention or thinking.)

      This "don't eat the moos" plan has a lot of holes, this being not the least of them. What're you going to do with all the otherwise-unusable land used for grazing - let it lay fallow? (We're talking about most of the states of NE, SD, WY, MT, etc. where farming is markedly more environmentally destructive and has little return, even with the most advanced intensive methods currently known.)

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    9. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a morally tough call at all, I am an apex predator, I get to kill and eat animals below me on the food chain.

    10. Re:dupe by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Please don't misunderstand, I like meat and I eat it.

      But I'm not so abstracted from my food that I forget that it used to be a living thing, and that it's life was taken so that I could have nutrition (and useful byproducts like bone meal, glycerin, leather, etc). If we ever reach a level of technology where there are no health or taste reasons why a synthetic meat would be undesirable, I simply wouldn't ever buy meat that used to be alive.

      I agree. I completely support the right to eat meat or experiment on animals because both are essential to human health. The moral harm from banning such practices would be far greater than allowing them to continue.

      However, as technology advanced that could change. If you can produce food economically without endangering animals, then raising animals simply to use them for food becomes unjustifiable. Other uses for animals might still be justified (like animal testing), but anytime a technology reduces the need for animal-based testing that is a good thing in my mind. Life has some value - even primitive life. That doesn't mean that i'm going to cry everytime I step on an ant, but on the other hand I'm not going to breed ants just so that I can step on them.

    11. Re:dupe by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      It seems like you are assuming that you and some stranger on the internet adhere to a universal set of morals. I hope you understand the insanity of that.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    12. Re:dupe by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but we need to raise a *LOT* more grazing animals in order to reduce/revert desertification... if you ask me, what we really need is a bit more demand (and production of) grazing animals like cows, with controlled migration of large herds.

      [sarcasm] suck it vegans [/scarcasm]

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    13. Re:dupe by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

      We are either a natural product (animal) of nature taking its course or we are unique and distinct from animals because we were created by a creator and endowed with special attributes, etc.

    14. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't find this to be "morally tough" at all. I like people, they are tasty, thus I eat people.

    15. Re:dupe by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      dupe

      Thanks for pointing that out. Nobody else would have known about that earlier story if you hadn't said something. Well, except for anyone that checked the links in the story (hint: it's the underlined "science").

    16. Re:dupe by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      If you were not so abstracted from your food and forget that it used to be a living thing, you would recognize that pretty much the only thing you eat that wasn't a living thing is salt. Even this lab grown protein was a living thing.

    17. Re:dupe by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      That's great but if everyone ate that way, even in less quantity there is just no way to do it. There just isn't enough space and resources to do it the correct natural way while still feeding the world population.

      Err...I grew up in the era before the mass production of beef and other animal products like we have now, and no one was starving in the US then....?

      And most of our food grown here, especially animal product do NOT go to starving countries...they get wheat and stuff that is easier to keep and transport.

      So, no, we could go back to the days of all animals being more naturallly fed and treated (ie no hormones and overuse of antibiotics) and not have a shortage of meat in the US. And hey, even if the supply were a bit lower, that might be a good thing, and have people eat MORE of the plentiful growing plant based foods that are so good for them nutritionally...?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    18. Re:dupe by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I fail to see where morality enters into this argument at all...? Humans are just another variety of animal on this planet, like the rest of them, we eat, sleep, shit, fuck and make new little copies of ourselves. We just happen to be on the top of the food chain, and have a lot of choices on what to eat, picking from those lower than us on the food chain. There's nothing morally wrong with eating something lower than yourself on the food chain, that's they way nature made all of us animals.

      The utilitarian argument goes that human beings, unlike most animals, have a conscience, and are thus obliged to minimize any form of suffering. The argument that humans are "just another animal" isn't sustainable, since it would justify the killing of other humans for food, particularly if the other human is outcompeted for resources and "lower than yourself" on the food chain. The distincition between intra- and inter-species predation is just an artificial construct, "animals" are arbitrary on the issue.

      People tend to have an innate sense of decency with regard to animals, they love their pets and would not want them killed; they only accept the killing of cows or chickens because they don't have to watch it, and because there's an arbitrary cultural practice at work.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    19. Re:dupe by aevan · · Score: 1
    20. Re:dupe by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      The utilitarian argument goes that human beings, unlike most animals, have a conscience, and are thus obliged to minimize any form of suffering.

      I'm all for the humane and painless killing of my food animals. No, they should not suffer, a quick clean kill should always be the goal.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    21. Re:dupe by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Right, but to kill is inhumane regardless of the modality.

      The entire process leading up to the slaughter of animals, or even up to the egg collection, is generally quite inhumane, unless you get all your food from pets. If you're a Benthamite utilitarian it'd be difficult to deny the immorality of the process, given what we know about animal behavior, neurology, and physiological stress.

      If you're a preference libertarian it's a little easier, unless you believe animals display the volition to survive, as opposed to the mere instinct, which I don't think can be denied for many classes of creatures.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    22. Re:dupe by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      well... its definitely not " we were created by a creator and endowed with special attributes, etc."

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    23. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, if you want the *good* plant based foods to reach the people, they'll need equal subsidization as the wheat and corn people.

    24. Re:dupe by evorster · · Score: 1

      Have any of you ever considered that if we figured out a way to make synthetic meat that tastes as good as the real thing for cheaper that there would be no more cows, apart from in zoos?

      With no economical incentive to raise and slaughter cows, we'll just kill them all, and re-purpose the land to grow beef in vats.

    25. Re:dupe by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

      There's nothing morally wrong with eating something lower than yourself on the food chain, that's they way nature made all of us animals.

      Hm ... wouldn't that mean that there's nothing morally wrong with eating anything -- including another human? After all, if you ate them, then they're lower on the food chain than you, by definition.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    26. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except you aren't even man enough to kill them yourself. You buy pre-killed, pre-chopped, pre-cleaned, pre-packaged meat that may or may not be infused with chemicals. Until you can do it on your own, you're not any kind of predator, you're just a morally bankrupt coward.

    27. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because we absolutely must have a play-by-play of the latest fake meat story...

      Go fuck yourself, little bitch.

    28. Re:dupe by RaceProUK · · Score: 1

      Milk.

      --
      No colour or religion ever stopped the bullet from a gun
    29. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have the industry phase out by banning all new cattle from being born.

      Time will take care of the rest. We can preserve a few specimens for zoos and studies in how humans managed to sabotage species to such a degree.

      Those who enjoy murder, can enjoy themselves in virtual reality murder simulators, or watch documentaries of how we once slaughtered animals for consumption.

    30. Re:dupe by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      Cheap vat-produced meat will reduce the demand for farm-produced meat, but there will still be a significant number of people who are willing to pay extra for the real thing, just like they do now with items that have "organic" labels on them. That together with large list of industrial, medical, and consumer products which come from livestock will ensure that they will continue to be economically viable for the forseeable future.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    31. Re:dupe by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Umm, look up what they culture the stuff in. Plenty of killing went into it. Wake me up when they culture the stuff in something that isn't calf blood.

    32. Re:dupe by cavebison · · Score: 1

      It isn't like most of us (in the west) are starving or anything.

      And there we have it, a prime (no pun intended) example of that common 1st-world hubris that sustains most of the problems in the world.

    33. Re:dupe by cavebison · · Score: 1

      Why are we trying to go so far away from foodstuffs that mother natures put on earth for us...?

      I'd like to see a list of all the non-natural, non-mother-nature foods you eat. Eg. most kinds of confectionery for a start. Do you take synthetic medicine to get better, or do you rely on mother nature for all your medicines? The hypocrisy of your position is astounding, as is your apparent blindness to it.

      Do you think mother nature put entire species of fish here for us to completely wipe off the face of the Earth because we're hungry? That's the result of you eating fish, my friend. 80% of all fishing stocks in the world are near depletion right now. What about farming and selective breeding? Did mother nature put animals on Earth for us to breed and augment in any way we like? To treat animals as nothing but meat - devoid of respect as living creatures in their own right? No, all of that is artificial, it's man-made. That's what you are eating - animals turned into spiritless meat. We may as well breed them without brains, for all the consideration we give them as natural creatures.

      So either so out and catch your own food by hand, you bleeding hypocrite, or admit you have no freaking idea what mother nature "intends" or what is "here for us". That common, human-centric world view of yours is the main reason we humans think we can trash this beautiful planet. Because it's all here "for us". What an awful, primitive way of looking at life.

    34. Re:dupe by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Have any of you ever considered that if we figured out a way to make synthetic meat that tastes as good as the real thing for cheaper that there would be no more cows, apart from in zoos?

      So? Is having a bazillion cows walking around in pens some kind of ecological virtue?

      There will be cows in the wild - just not very many.

    35. Re:dupe by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      However, as technology advanced that could change. If you can produce food economically without endangering animals, then raising animals simply to use them for food becomes unjustifiable. Other uses for animals might still be justified (like animal testing), but anytime a technology reduces the need for animal-based testing that is a good thing in my mind. Life has some value - even primitive life. That doesn't mean that i'm going to cry everytime I step on an ant, but on the other hand I'm not going to breed ants just so that I can step on them.

      Wish had some mod points for that.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    36. Re:dupe by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Methinks you're over-thinking your food....

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    37. Re:dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but do you understand that cattle would not be able to survive independently of the need for farming them for meat/dairy? You'd go from one of the more successful species on the planet, with numbers over a billion, to one that is kept around for largely curiosity. There is no wild cattle population.

  4. You would think. . . by Salgak1 · · Score: 0

    . . . .trying to roll-out a hamburger, you'd do it somewhere in the States, with a strong biotech presence. One generally doesn't associate "London" with "Hamburger": "Fish and Chips" or "Vindaloo" come more to mind. . .

    1. Re:You would think. . . by skovnymfe · · Score: 3, Funny

      If he did it in America, someone would sue him for going against Gods will.

    2. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You know, as an American, I resent that remark. We do not sue for going against God's will.

      We burn you at the steak.

      Yes. I went there.

    3. Re:You would think. . . by superflippy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I made the mistake of eating a hamburger in London in 2001. I was on a long business trip and just wanted something quick to eat, so I ducked into a McDonalds.

      Little did I know that, thanks to the outbreak of Mad Cow Disease, this simple act would make me ineligible to become a blood donor for years to come.

      --
      Your fantasies contain the seeds of important concepts.
    4. Re:You would think. . . by JackieBrown · · Score: 1, Funny

      Ha ha ha. American's hate change and love God. Pretty insightful and funny about how backwards we all are.

      I remember the Slashdot thread on Thatcher's death. Seems like a number of british are still bitching about fake ice cream.

    5. Re:You would think. . . by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      We burn you at the steak.

      I thought we were talking about hamburger.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    6. Re:You would think. . . by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Funny

      There are many things American don't do well, but we are pretty good about not burning our steaks.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    7. Re:You would think. . . by sunami · · Score: 1

      I would witch that.

    8. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is fake ice cream? What's the point of that?

    9. Re:You would think. . . by Defenestrar · · Score: 2

      Clearly the AC flirted with precognition by assuming someone would throw a good pun into the meat grinder.

    10. Re:You would think. . . by hedwards · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The point of that is for people who can't tolerate dairy products. I suppose vegans as well, but I think it's mainly for those that can't tolerate dairy.

      And that's a much larger group than a lot of people realize, I didn't realize that I had trouble with dairy, until I moved to a part of the world where dairy is hard to get, and I felt physically better than I had in years.

    11. Re:You would think. . . by Defenestrar · · Score: 0

      And you touched on some of the brilliance inherent in this work and demonstration's location.

      1. Pick a country with a well conditioned fear of CJD

      2. Pick a region (EU) with an unreasoned fear of GM food

      3. Provide a solution to 1. and temptation to overcome 2. with a vat grown burger... perhaps compensating with organic ketchup.

      4. ???

      5. Profit!

    12. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      > hamburger ... McDonalds

      So... When did you eat the hamburger?

    13. Re:You would think. . . by phriot · · Score: 2

      Raising animals for meat is resource intensive. I would assume that the hope is to scale this process so that lab-grown meat is much less so. Then ranching land can be reclaimed, water diverted to other endeavors (drinking), etc.

    14. Re:You would think. . . by Politburo · · Score: 5, Informative

      The amount of waste generated by livestock is astounding, not to mention the inputs needed. If inventions such as this can reduce either of those (ideally both), even by just a few percent, there is most certainly a 'point'. There are many non-vegetarians interested in more sustainable production methods.

    15. Re:You would think. . . by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Indeed, if I remember correctly there's actually only a few human populations that evolved to drink cow's milk. As it happened some became dominant cultures and spread their genes around a fair bit, but if you didn't happen to inherit one of the genes that let you digest it effectively it's not actually that suitable a foodstuff for us.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:You would think. . . by NIK282000 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      China's populations is levelling off but its standard of living is going up. Not every one lives in a house with electricity and plumbing but most people would like to. When larger fractions of their population start living the western life you can bet they wont want to farm their own foods. We are no where near feeding the world adequately, if this can be done cheap and efficiently than its a big step in the right direction.

      --
      Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
    17. Re:You would think. . . by Immerman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How exactly is laboratory grown meat more disgusting than a factory-farmed alternative? If it tastes similar enough* and the price can be made competitive I predict a lot of high-yield subspecies will go nearly extinct.

      *within acceptable tolerances - factory farmed meat is a poor substitute for free-range meat, but is so much cheaper that most people will choose it anyway. Same with most high-yield fruits and vegetables that have been bred (or genetically modified) to have huge yields with little or no regard for flavor.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    18. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree many people eat too much meat. I personally don't eat much meat but I am not a vegetarian and once in a while I love a hamburger.

      However if you are maybe a bit fat like I am (I am loosing a lot of weight due to dietary changes I have made), a small bit of meat (or other protein) in every meal is good. Protein will reduce the hunger feeling immensely for a longer time than other kinds of food. From a calorie point of view meat metabolises in a few hours, so it is released pretty slowly in the bloodstream. If you are able to eat a small amount of fast metabolising food (such as grains and fruit), slow metabolising food (such as meat) and really slow metabolising foods (vegetables and salads), your blood sugar levels stays a lot more balanced.

      The biggest amount of weight loss I achieve is through alternate day fasting, I eat 600 (500 for women) calories on two non consecutive days in a week. On the other days I pay a lot less attention on how much I eat. I will do this for the rest of my live because next to losing weight, you will gain a lot of other health benefits (beyond those by just weighing less).

      I have been doing this for a year, and my doctor and the blood lab do tests every three months. It has been quite interesting, I had a few things in my blood that were off, blood sugar level to high, good/bad cholesterol ratio bad (I have too little of the good stuff), liver function reduced (I don't drink), high blood pressure. These have all been going into the right direction. The liver function was completely restored (was because I got phiefer which messes with your liver), my blood pressure is perfect, my sugar levels are normal (but on the high side still) and my cholesterol ratio is getting better.

    19. Re:You would think. . . by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Actually the fake ice cream created by Thatcher was the soft-whip type that could be despensed in a nice looking curly (I don't even know what noun goes here) lump(?) from a machine that squidges out icecream. It could also be stored warm, and near instantly chiilled down to the required temperature, staying soft after freezing.

      It's pretty tasty, if you consider it as a frozen desert rather than fancy ice-cream.

      As an added bonus it is indeed nearly dairy free to the extent that it's quite edible by all but the most lactose intolerant.

      And that's a much larger group than a lot of people realize,

      Indeed, and yet for some reason so many products have dairy added completely unnecessarily. It's odd though, people have complete blind spots. Despite two members of my family being lactose intolerant, the thought of cooking without milk or butter either never crosses the mind of most of the rest of them or sends them into a blind panic. This is despite my grandmother being an Jewish and carniverous and an excellent cook and therefore very adept at non dairy cooking.

      TL;DR: people are weird.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    20. Re:You would think. . . by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      burnt steak?? blasphemy!

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    21. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Burnt steak is a culinary sin.

    22. Re:You would think. . . by RoccamOccam · · Score: 0

      Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends,
      Oh, the farmer and the cowman should be friends.
      One man likes to push a plough,
      The other likes to chase a cow,
      But that's no reason why they cain't be friends.

      Territory folks should stick together,
      Territory folks should all be pals.
      Cowboys dance with farmer's daughters,
      Farmers dance with the ranchers' gals.

    23. Re:You would think. . . by ckhorne · · Score: 4, Informative

      I lived in London during that timeframe as well. Having eaten at McDonalds doesn't make you ineligible. Simply being in the UK for a prolonged time during the BSE outbreak will cause you to be turned down for blood donations.

      The forms for blood donations don't even mention McDonalds, but they do ask if you were in the UK over certain dates. If so, you're ineligible to give blood, even if you're a vegan.

    24. Re:You would think. . . by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > The point of that is for people who can't tolerate dairy products.

      No. The point is to make a cheaper product.

      Whether or not it gives you a case of Montezuma's revenge is entirely immaterial.

      Industrial engineering tweaks to food products are all about making it cheaper, easier to store, easier to transport, and to give it a longer shelf life. All other concerns are tertiary at best.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    25. Re:You would think. . . by taiwanjohn · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's only because of how we raise livestock. There are other ways which do not have these problems.

      Other benefits Managed Intensive Rotational Grazing include:

      1. Reduction of parasites, pests, and disease vectors.
      2. Less need for pharmaceuticals.
      3. No need for fertilizer.
      4. Less petroleum used in transporting feed and manure to/from the CAFO.
      5. Increases soil fertility.
      6. Increases topsoil coverage and depth.
      7. Can reverse desertification.
      8. Sequesters vast amounts of CO2.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    26. Re:You would think. . . by TooTechy · · Score: 1

      Actually far more ice cream than that is made from vegetable oil.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-393432/The-chilling-truth-ice-cream.html

      Pretty much every ice cream we ate as kids came from vegetable oil and tasted awesome!

    27. Re:You would think. . . by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Indeed, if I remember correctly there's actually only a few human populations that evolved to drink cow's milk.

      Those of us of European descent have evolved the ability to tolerate it a little better than others; we still tend to feel far better and experience fewer diseases when we abstain from it.

    28. Re:You would think. . . by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's not the fake ice cream I was talking about. I was talking about the stuff that doesn't use dairy.

      And generally that stuff is more expensive.

    29. Re: You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself; as a vegetarian, I'm counting the days until we've got something that really replicates a good double cheeseburger. If it can have some good not-bacon on it, all the better.

    30. Re:You would think. . . by wasteoid · · Score: 1

      The stem-cell reproduction process uses viruses to revert cells into stem cells, and eating viruses or virus byproducts is pretty gross.

      At least with organic food, you have some idea of what you're eating.

    31. Re:You would think. . . by jittles · · Score: 1

      I made the mistake of eating a hamburger in London in 2001. I was on a long business trip and just wanted something quick to eat, so I ducked into a McDonalds.

      Little did I know that, thanks to the outbreak of Mad Cow Disease, this simple act would make me ineligible to become a blood donor for years to come.

      Who and where are you trying to make your donation to? I used to donate blood religiously (haven't because I am irritated with my current blood bank) and my understanding is that you had to live in the UK during a certain time frame for more than 6 months. It doesn't matter what you ate, only how long you were there for. That was the case at the American Red Cross, Stanford Blood Bank, and the local blood bank in my current state.

      And in case you're wondering, I am unhappy with my current blood bank because I feel that they are disrespectful. They call me every day asking me to donate. I tell them I am busy, or not feeling well or whatever and ask them to call me back. I have even been ineligible, and told them that I was ineligible for the next 6 months, and they still call daily. It's rude.

    32. Re:You would think. . . by wift · · Score: 1

      I will have mine medium rare please.

      --
      ....... Thus ends my attempt at wit or whatever
    33. Re:You would think. . . by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Forgive me for asking this, because it seems like wires have been crossed to result in this question... but what exactly does meat have to do with dairy? IE, it doesn't have anything to do with dairy.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    34. Re:You would think. . . by CAIMLAS · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd mod you up if I could.

      So many of the anti-meat crowd are completely oblivious to how cattle ranching is primarily done these days. Managed intensive rotational grazing isn't the sought after ideal, it's reality for pretty much everyone I know who ranches and is holding on or doing well, and it's been that way for probably a decade or more now.

      These idiots think cows are grown in vats and fed a steady diet of bubble gum and corn syrup in a 1920s style slaughterhouse.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    35. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mediterranean people, if dairy makes you fart you can't have the proud name of "Europeans".
      Northern Europeans

      PS. I'm joking. J-o-k-i-n-g :)

    36. Re:You would think. . . by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Meat, cows, dairy.
      All contain animal fat which is bad for you, bad for the environment and ethically questionable.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    37. Re:You would think. . . by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      There are many things American don't do well, but we are pretty good about not burning our steaks.

      You obviously grew up with a different mother than I did.

    38. Re:You would think. . . by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Only according to your ethical compass. Mine says animals are here to help provide for our needs such as food and clothing and horsepower before the harnessing of steam and derivatives thereof.

    39. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you kill a fat vampire? Put a steak through his heart.

    40. Re: You would think. . . by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      We already have that. We call them double-cheeseburgers and they are readily available in every town in the US.

      I would think that being a good vegeterian meant that you didn't crave meat. If you want meat that much, stop being trendy or whatever and eat meat.

    41. Re:You would think. . . by skovnymfe · · Score: 1

      Oh sure it's definitely becoming, if it isn't already, the defacto way of keeping cattle, but you don't have to go back many years before it was the other way around; keeping as much cattle on as little an area as is effectively possible, throwing food at them to get them big and 'healthy'.

      That's one of the real big reasons a lot of acreage has turned to wasteland over the years, and this new/old way of herding the animals around over a much larger area is only just now starting to return some balance to some of these desert and near-desert areas. But there's still a great deal of land all over the world where farmers and ranchers went bust doing it the wrong way, because all the vegetation just up and disappeared.

    42. Re:You would think. . . by mspohr · · Score: 1

      Some people find the conditions under which some farm animals are raised to be ethically questionable.
      Some people think it is unethical to kill animals.
      You are entitled to your own ethical compass.
      Enjoy your meat.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    43. Re:You would think. . . by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Actually, in Canada, they can't call it ice cream if it isn't actually ice cream. If you read the package, it often says "frozen dessert" or some other such name. If it says ice cream on the box, it actually has to be real ice cream. To qualify as Ice Cream, it must be made only with 100% Canadian milk, apart from the stuff used to actually add the flavour like vanilla, sugar, chocolate, nuts, caramel, etc.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    44. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whether or not it gives you a case of Montezuma's revenge is entirely immaterial.

      In fact it makes good business sense to diversify your company into toilet paper as well.

      Does Taco Bell own stock in toilet paper and under wear companies?

    45. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, Mr. Greengrocer, but I think you have a customer waiting. How do you people ever get through high school? Or did you simply drop out? Why in the hell did you put that apostrophe in "Americans"? We certainly have a shitty school system. And you know what? As a college graduate I can't take an uneducated person seriously.

      Here's a hint, son: you're not a nerd. Nerds are literate and educated.

      Don't feel bad, slashdot was overtaken by 4chanians redditers long ago. It's a damned shame, but there are few nerds left here.

    46. Re:You would think. . . by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      All contain animal fat which is bad for you,

      No. No it's not. The great food experiment that has been foisted on the public over the last 30 or 40 years has shown that the current recommended diet is horrible for people's health. The Medical industry is just stuck with the tautology that it is good, so the keep recommending that when it doesn't work, you have to double down on the high sugar (carbohydrate)/low protein/low animal fat diet.

    47. Re:You would think. . . by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      These idiots think cows are grown in vats and fed a steady diet of bubble gum and corn syrup in a 1920s style slaughterhouse.

      They're fed corn and antibiotics -- I dunno where you raise your cows but California between Bakersfield and Salinas is one big concentrated feedlot. We only recently convinced people to stop feeding cows with other dead cows. Let alone grass.

      I don't know who "everyone you know" is, but 50% of meat in the US comes from CAFOs.

      The modern slaughterhouses are pretty awesome. I mean, sure, assembly lines are imperfect things, and pigs and cows often aren't dead when they get put up on the hooks, and are conscious when their trotters and ears get sawed off, but this is a marginal issue...

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    48. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good response. That was great. Ha haha haha ha ha ha ha ha

    49. Re:You would think. . . by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hate to break it to you, but you just swallowed hundreds of viruses just now. Oops, there you went and did it again. The remains of the virus that infected the stem cell should be insignificant. In fact we could even make certain of it by doing full dna analysis on multiple samples taken from the initial growing cell-clump versus the donor animal.

      As for organic - yes, we're 100% certain that whatever you're eating has bits and pieces of viral DNA incorporated into it's own. Everything does. That's what (some) viruses do, and have been doing for billions of years. There's a fair chance that some of our own useful genetic traits were introduced by a virus at some point in our evolution, we certainly have bits of random junk accumulated over the eons.

      Not that I'm knocking organic - but if we're going to be eating processed, factory-farmed food anyway we may as well do it cleanly and efficiently and leave the farmland available for more constructive uses. Permaculture maybe. Or wilderness areas.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    50. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides, everything around the steaks is usually deep fried, and often wrapped in bacon. Even God would order that.

    51. Re:You would think. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds like the kind of "joke" you'd get out of an X-mas cracker.

    52. Re:You would think. . . by benhattman · · Score: 1

      Parent post completely misses the point. Sure, rotational grazing is a much healthier (for the animals) and many would say more humane way to raise cattle. If we could meet 100% of demand for beef this way, then I'm sure nearly everyone would support it over feed lots.

      But you're not comparing feed lot beef to grazed beef. You're comparing grazed beef to lab grown. Right now, for every pound of meat we consume, requires about 10 pounds of vegetation. The number vary quite a bit based on what you're eating (beef is different than chicken), but it's a good estimate.

      Suppose it took just 2 pounds of vegetable input to produce a pound of lab-grown "beef"? You could take literally millions of acres of farmland offline without sacrificing capability to feed people. That farmland could either be used as part of a much larger rotation (so more land is fallow each season), which would improve overall land quality. Or, it could be returned to nature, which would be even better for desertification and topsoil coverage. And if the lab-beef can be made from non-food "crops", like say something indigenous, you might not need to really farm at all. Maybe all you do is harvest grass a few times a year, and dump it into your beef-o-matic.

      With increasing wealth in Asia, in the long run, it's either something like lab-meat, crickets (as the UN suggests), or we all eat about 1/3rd the animal protein each day as we do now.

    53. Re:You would think. . . by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      They're fed corn and antibiotics -- I dunno where you raise your cows but California between Bakersfield and Salinas is one big concentrated feedlot. We only recently convinced people to stop feeding cows with other dead cows. Let alone grass.

      Yep, and as a partial result, you've got a lot of vegetarians who think meat is gross - for good reason. California raised beef is probably close to the most disgusting thing I've ever eaten.

      You'll find best practices employed out here in "flyover country" where effective land use is valued. (You know, those people the Coasts disparagingly tend to refer to as ignorant and earth destroying hicks...)

      As for these supposed slaughterhouses you're referring to: please explain to me how ranchers, who get paid by weight and often have their meats taste graded and rated, would benefit from having a squirming, living adrenaline-pumping animal processed? No, it doesn't work that way, not in this country. Even someone cursorily familiar with the cattle industry would be able to tell you that you're relying on inaccurate propaganda.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    54. Re:You would think. . . by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      On the contrary, I see healthy animal fats as inherently healthy - just not ones established by eating corn, soy, etc. in feed lots. History as well as modern health information does agree with me.

      I can understand your stance. When you rely upon the FDA to make your food choice decisions instead of listening to centuries of built-up wisdom of centuries and relying on traditional foods determined to establish and extend health, it's easy to make such foolish mistakes.

      As far as your ethics claim? That's laudable but also extremely laughable, since I can almost guarantee you do not believe in a moral authority higher than yourself. Good luck with that!

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    55. Re:You would think. . . by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      I think that was my point.

    56. Re:You would think. . . by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      CAFO's still provide the bulk of the meat consumed in the US.

  5. I'm gonna witch it by Dthief · · Score: 4, Funny
    curse ye eaters of beef most foul

    toil toil grey sludge and genetically engineered eye of newt

    --
    www.RacquetUp.org - Helping Detroit Youth
    1. Re:I'm gonna witch it by P-niiice · · Score: 4, Funny

      you will be burned at the steak

  6. "witch"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Mystic eye of toad, jizz of newt, or samzenpus failing to do his job?

    1. Re:"witch"? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      Considering what they're doing, I find the typo strangely appropriate.

  7. If we can witch the event by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    will we be burned at the steak?

  8. Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This will divide the extremists. The anti-GM Luddites will go crazy because this is arguably the most anti-organic food on the planet. The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals. The vegans will note that animal byproducts are still required for this process to exist at all and still turn their noses up at it.

    Will brains explode with delight with the idea that humans can have their meat without killing cows and all of their related carbon emissions? Will brains explode because the lab grown meat is so expensive that only the very rich can afford it? What will the conscious do with the idea that people get to have meat at all? Will the meat connoisseur snub this lab grown meat versus a nice hamburger from cow #156? Will the greens go nuts because a carbon based food source is being replaced with a lab equivalent that will inevitably be owned by the giant food corps?

    So many heads to explode, so little popcorn.

    1. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by h4rr4r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The price will go down eventually. Personally I look forward to meat without suffering for farm animals. Suffering for the animals is a by product of seeking to control costs, this will allow that without a nervous system that can feel suffering.

      No exploding, just excited to see progress.

    2. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really, all this GM corn is just out there waiting to be eaten.

    3. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We will make meat so cheap, that only the rich will eat vegetables.

    4. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Sique · · Score: 2

      I don't know how the GM luddites come into play here, as there is no GM at work. It's just cells multiplying, and no single gene gets modified in the process.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    5. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The goal here is a less expensive meat, both environmentally and economically.

    6. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      GM food is food that has been genetically modified from it's previous natural state directly by man instead of through crossbreeding - which is directly by man. Because the lab is involved the Luddites go nuts as this isn't 'natural'. The lab grown hamburger similarly also isn't natural and instead requires man's intervention.

    7. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only zealot post in this thread until now appears to be from you :)

    8. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.

      There must be some vegetarians somewhere that will, but I imagine the vast majority just won't care. Most who haven't eaten meat for a while just no longer care for it.

    9. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      You are assuming that Luddites will make rational arguments. It's a test tube T-bone, so it's pretty easy to make it scary.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    10. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.

      I doubt it. People who become vegetarians do not do so because they're so concerned about animals because they have no problem with diary products. Those who are concerned go all the way and become vegans. However, vegetarians are motivated by other reasons - such as a healthier diet that makes it practically impossible to get fat even if you eat a lot. A friend of mine who became a vegetarian in high school said he simply began to consider meat disgusting to eat. Sort of the same feeling as for us Western meat eaters that might consider snake or dog too disgusting to eat even though the Chinese happily eat it.

    11. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Salgak1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Reports are, it tasted lousy, due to nearly zero fat content. Additionally, "real" beef has flavor overtones resultant from the feed the animal was raised on. Thus, corn-fed beef tastes different from grass-fed beef, even if both cows came from the same cows.

      I don't expect vat-raised hamburger, much less steak, being commercially available anytime soon. . . . . simply because if it doesn't TASTE good and have the "mouth feel" of genuine beef, you're not going to get enough buyers to make it a commercial success. . .

    12. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Bigby · · Score: 2

      What is worse for the environment? A cow that farts and breathes out CO2 but poops good fertilizer. The electricity required to run a lab that produces the same amount of meat, milk, leather, and fertilizer produced by that cow.

    13. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The anti-GM Luddites will go crazy because this is arguably the most anti-organic food on the planet.

      You idiot. You don't have a fucking clue what anti-GM groups are about, do you? Morons like you always jump in and polarize the debate early on, making any kind of rational discussion impossible.

      I'm anti-GM crops/animals but have no problem with this, since it has has nothing to do with any of the issues that concern me.

      The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.

      You idiot. You don't have a fucking clue about what most vegetarians are about, do you?

      Most people who don't eat meat do so because they don't like the taste, the texture, or for (often misguided) health reasons. I'm not a vegetarian but I don't eat whole tomatoes either because I find them icky.

      Sorry if I sound frustrated but someone like you always poisons every debate with a straw man argument and it's pissing me off.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      A lot of GM detractors don't like it for legal reasons. As long as Monsanto and the rest stick with their current business practices I am one of them. They don't sell their seeds, they license them. You are not allowed to keep a part of this year's crops to use in the next year. Not that that would do any good with F1 hybrids, but still. Also due to their patents you may get sued due to cross-pollination OR if you switch crops and yet a bit of last year's crop still grows on your fields. Which does happen. And you never know what kind of indigenous plants will be threatened by those GM monster things. But this also applies to conventional growing.

      This process of generating meat in a lab OTOH does not release anything into the wild and could potentially solve a big problem. Until corporate greed kicks in, that is. I am aware that it will possibly take decades to make the process viable. This is only one of the first steps. I wonder in what way a bunch of lawyers will ruin it for the rest of us.
      The luddite health-scare is just narrow-sighted sensationalism while ignoring the true issue.

      --
      20 minutes into the future
    15. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about my suffering? My ears are bleeding from listening to people complain about how animals have feeling and blah blah blah. This lab grown stuff will only make people talk about it more. Oh, the horror!

    16. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by hedwards · · Score: 1

      We're not Luddites. I studied extensively in the natural sciences, including coursework in genetics, when I was in college. Before that I spent a substantial amount of time cleaning up the mess that exotic species made when introduced.

      To suggest that there's anything extreme about being anti-GM is to completely misunderstand the risks that the incompetent research is subjecting us to. Even a normal exotic in the wrong environment can be costly to clean up after. Scot's broom, for example, has to be pulled yearly for 80+ years to be removed from the area and if you miss a single year when it goes to seed, you have to continue for 80+ years from that point.

      And that's a species that doesn't have any man made immunities or special powers.

      What's more, in this case, we don't have trouble growing enough meat for people to have a healthy amount of it, we're going to have problems providing people with enough meat to make them sick on the stuff.

    17. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      This will divide the extremists. The anti-GM Luddites will go crazy because this is arguably the most anti-organic food on the planet. The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals. The vegans will note that animal byproducts are still required for this process to exist at all and still turn their noses up at it.

      Will brains explode with delight with the idea that humans can have their meat without killing cows and all of their related carbon emissions? Will brains explode because the lab grown meat is so expensive that only the very rich can afford it? What will the conscious do with the idea that people get to have meat at all? Will the meat connoisseur snub this lab grown meat versus a nice hamburger from cow #156? Will the greens go nuts because a carbon based food source is being replaced with a lab equivalent that will inevitably be owned by the giant food corps?

      So many heads to explode, so little popcorn.

      I haven't seen any information that says there is less greenhouse gas produced making this "meat." That aside, I agree that the food fight will be amusing. Not sure I'd want a Laburger just yet.

    18. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I think we already did that.

    19. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, get your propaganda on, "anti-GM Luddites". Nice statement if you are against science, as most of you GM supporters seem to be, screw science, all hail the corporation.

      Most of us "anti-GM Luddites" simply want more study and better understanding before we adulterate our food supply with a new and poorly understood practice that is almost impossible to retract once it is "out there". Funny how caution and the desire for better understanding instead of cheer leading for large companies bottom line makes us Luddites.

    20. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      That has already happened. Check out the prices in the produce section and compare them to the minimum wage some time. Then for a real laugh check out the prices at your local farmers' market. Poor people can't afford fresh produce anymore.

    21. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't believe that for an instant. My hobby, cook up bacon when vegetarians are around and watch them look at it longingly and give me dirty looks at the same time.

    22. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it. People who become vegetarians do not do so because they're so concerned about animals because they have no problem with diary products.

      Wrong. Some people do. Even if they consume dairy products, that doesn't mean that they don't care about the suffering of animals; it could just mean they want to mitigate the harm done to animals or believe that dairy products can be obtained in a suffering-free way.

    23. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, as a long time vegetarian, I've cut out most dairy and frequently eat vegan, but in truth the reason I don't go full vegan is that I don't have the time. Being a vegan in our society is supremely expensive or supremely time consuming and people can be irrationally angry at you for not eating meat (What do you mean you want a salad without the bacon bits? What're you some sort of cult member?). So, I'd love to be able to go vegan and live a somewhat comfortable life, it's just not available unless I want to travel hours for food, grow everything myself, or eat an unhealthy diet. If I lived in a city it would be far easier I think.

      Also it's extremely easy to get fat as a vegetarian. I got to almost 300lbs before a serious reversal where i go serious about diet and exercise. I've lost over 60lbs now, but it's definitely possible.

    24. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Noughmad · · Score: 2

      simply because if it doesn't TASTE good and have the "mouth feel" of genuine beef, you're not going to get enough buyers to make it a commercial success. . .

      Just put a lot of sugar and a big red M on it. It will be a success overnight. I wouldn't mention its origin, though.

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      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    25. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm not the guy you're responding to, but I think your hostility is unwarranted. Frankly, you come off much worse than the guy you're responding to. For one thing, disagreeing with someone is no reason to call someone an idiot.

      That aside, anti-GM groups and vegetarians have a wide variety of reasons for their beliefs and actions. I know anti-GM people who have good, well thought out reasons, but I also know some who are just anti-science. I know vegetarians who don't eat meat because they're concerned about animal welfare, economic inequality, environmental issues, health issues, or some combination of those. I also know some who just don't like the taste. I also know some for whom it's a fashion statement.

      Don't try to paint over everything with the same brush. There will be some people who are afraid of this meat simply because it was "grown in a lab" which makes it comparable to Frankenstein's monster somehow. Frankly, I'm a bit concerned about the meat because I haven't read enough about what they're actually doing to know that they're not doing something strange, dangerous, or unethical. At this point, it's just my own ignorance, but I'm not going to promote the whole thing and tell people it's fine when I don't actually know what they're doing.

    26. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by pla · · Score: 1

      Strawmen galore, get your whacking sticks here, $5 per hit! ;)

      Seriously though, anti-GM folks have no "beef" here - Perfectly normal, unmodified meat, grown in a vat instead of a cow.
      Vegetarians don't all snub meat on moral grounds.
      The price should eventually come down to far less than growing meat on an unpredictable animal wandering around eating grass.
      Most environmentalists recognize meat production as a huge resource drain, and should support vat-meat.

      So that really leaves the vegans and the the meat connoisseurs. Dead-on, with them, but that seems okay to me.

    27. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Sique · · Score: 1, Informative
      There is a small but important difference between crossbreeding and GM. In general, crossbreeding does not affects the genes, just the allels (the actual expression of a gene). Crossbreeding shuffles allel combinations, and you then can select from the filial generation the ones most close to your breeding goal and continue. But you introduce no new genes into the living. Even crossbreeding between species does not affect genes too much, as two releated species have more than 99% of all genes in common (e.g. the chimpanzee and the human have 99,7% of all genes in common).

      GM introduces genes which come from completely different strains of life. Mainly, one introduces genes from bacteria into plants or animals or vice versa. The most common technique to achieve this are gene vectors. A retro virus acts as a DNA shuttle. It gets the bits of DNA which should be introduced into the host, and then the host's cells are infected with this retro virus. It unloads its DNA freight into the genome of the host by introducing all its own viral genome and the DNA bits into the host's DNA. Then it starts to replicate using the normal DNA replication mechanism of its host, which then produces identic copies of the retro virus including the additional DNA. The normal immune answer of the host kills off the virus, but hopefully the bits of DNA it introduced into the host cell's DNA stay there and get replicated when the cell multiplies, producing the same protein(es) it did in its original organism.

      One could thus compare crossbreeding roughly as editing config files and fiddling around with parameters, and GM with actually patching the binaries.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    28. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what bullshit and what's more you know it's bullshit. When you can "naturally select" to cross breed a scorpion with corn you come back and show us, to pretend that modern GM practices are the same as selection and hybridization practiced by farmers for millennia is not just disingenuous it is outright lying. Also to pretend that mixing animal and insect genes with plant genes will definitely not produce unknown consequences is pretty illogical. We are in a whole new world here with breeding, how must those who wish to exercise caution be joining those textile artisans of yester-year smashing the frames and looms. It's not like we are just exercising proper scientific caution when dealing with something that could cause disruption in our health or food supply as well as drastically alter the food chain with unknown results. You are not defending science here, you are defending corporate power to dictate to the people what our collective food sources will encompass. You also are railing against choice, we don't want GM outlawed, we want it better understood and labelled so the people can make an informed choice whether to trust the big companies that have shown that they don't care about us at all or protect ouselves from corporate overreach.

      But hey, you go ahead and vilify all of us, propaganda is a type of science after all.

    29. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 1

      because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.

      Hahaa... I don't think you know very many vegetarians.

      They become so accustomed to replacing the "meat" proteins with beans and grains (quinoa) that eating meat becomes a troubling concept, grown ethically/sustainably or not. The "PETA" vegetarians will find something wrong with whatever you try and serve them so let's not even go there.

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    30. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Morons like you always jump in and polarize the debate early on, making any kind of rational discussion impossible."

      This is by design, not by accident. Cui bono?

    31. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AFTER learning what exactly the 'pseudo-meat' tastes like, and what method and materials they're using to create it, I'll be just as curious as anyone else to give it a try.

      If it tastes comparable to regular meat, it's worth considering as part my food staple. However, I like regular beef just fine, so this just becomes another option at the market... eventually. Although probably not high on the priority scale in the meat department.

      I'm not necessarily anti-GM, however GM food has its place in present day, and we as a society are going about it all wrong.

    32. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Really, he didn't include fat in his project? Has he never eaten meat?

      As for your argument, the same can be said of factory-farmed meat versus free range, yet the factory farmed meat has enough of a price advantage that most people choose it most of the time, ethics be damned. If lab grown meat can cross the same threshold I expect similar success. As for the flavor overtones, I'm sure the proper additives can be found for the nutrient bath.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    33. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hey, that's one way to stamp out poverty. Currently we seem to be on the Mary Antoinette plan - let them eat "cake" (sugars and simple carbs) and die of diabetes and other obesity-related diseases. It's rather slow going though, I'm sure if we replace the lingering vegetables with meat it will accelerate things nicely.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    34. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except to get meat to really grow it needs a vascular system, and probably also a nervous system. What about the feelings of a lab grown beef?

    35. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i wont touch it. i'll stick with killing farm animals.

    36. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, so because I am a vegetarian, I am an extremist? Moron. In most parts of the world people do not eat nearly as much meat as westernes.
      And I seriously doubt I will eat this. Simply because I don't feel any need for it.

    37. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Don't try to paint over everything with the same brush.

      That was my point really. The GP introduces extreme views just to get people riled up and angry, like a tabloid newspaper or Fox News. The debate is then polarized and everyone who opposes the subject is assigned one of these extremist groups, even if they are not part of one.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    38. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      I respect that you have actually studied the subject before coming up with your opinion. I also agree wholeheartedly with your stance about invasive species being a bad thing. That being said, invasive species have nothing to GM foods. Unfortunately to force additional sales most GM plants are bred so that they cannot generate subsequent generations. If anything your GM plants are far less likely to cause problems such as you have cited.

    39. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The objection to GM is not just because "Ahh, not natural", though that is admittedly a component. There are many other good reasons to object, to list a few:
      1) They introduces proteins (insecticides, herbicide resistance, etc) into our food supply that our bodies don't know how to deal with - at least one study shows that pigs fed an exclusively GMO'd diet displayed severe health problems compared to a control group fed an equivalent non-GMO'd diet.
      2) Modified organism may have a significant survival advantage and become invasive organisms, with all the problems that entails
      3) Generally speaking the modified species can cross-breed with their natural relatives, potentially making the original stock unavailable if we discover serious problems down the road.
      4) GMOs tend to be patented, which means we're putting control of our food supply into the hands of a few powerful companies, and eliminating time-honored farming practices in the process, such as keeping part of your harvest to plant the next season.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    40. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This will divide the extremists. The anti-GM Luddites will go crazy because this is arguably the most anti-organic food on the planet. The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.

      You are confusing "vegetarians" with vegetarians. An easy mistake to make since "vegetarians" are loud and preachy. They have to convince others that they have convinced themselves. Ignore them, and meet them next year at McDonalds.

      Actual vegetarians are about as unspectacular as people not eating insects. They don't turn "not eating insects" into a cult, and it's unlikely that in ten years you'll find them stuffing themselves silly with grasshoppers. It's not their thing.

      There is a "meat substitution" industry that is plain silly. Like "soy sausages" which taste pretty much like you would think a dish sponge pressed into balloons would. Or "soy meat" that is basically perfectly edible tofu processed into the likeness of sinewy, grisly meat, the stuff you'd get from a butcher for the sake of occupying a dog.

      Why, if you chose not to eat meat in the first place, would you jump at something trying to simulate the worst aspects of it?

      I don't really get the desire to "grow" meat, either. Meat is, after all, an acquired taste. And the total unsuitability of meat as a significant part of one's diet in a "modern" life style is well-known and documented. Why use science for making people less healthy? Their body has little enough to work, so there is no point in preprocessing vegetables into meat in order to let it work even less.

    41. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      I've had several girlfriends over the years that were assorted flavors of vegetarian from no red meat to militant vegan. I have known vegetarians that chose the diet for religious, moral, taste and health reasons. Most vegetarians only stick with the diet for a few years before reverting to a normal diet. As with any diet there are advantages and disadvantages to being a vegetarians. I've never met a single vegetarian that wouldn't admit to longing for meat unless they were on the diet from birth. Go to any vegetarian store and you will find a wide variety of foods (Tofu etc) made for the express purpose of imitating meat.

    42. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by StripedCow · · Score: 1

      The vegans will note that animal byproducts are still required for this process to exist at all and still turn their noses up at it.

      Put a time-lapse camera at a random forest, and the whole scene will look just as animate as a bunch of animals.
      This idea will explode some more heads.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    43. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't forget the methane, IIRC cows are the #1 source of emissions of that far more powerful greenhouse gas. It's short-lived, less than a year in the atmosphere as opposed to CO2's 50+, but when you're on the tipping point those extra forcing factors are important to consider.

      But really cows are horrendously inefficient meat sources - they consume 10kg of grain for every 1kg of meat they produce. Presumably most of that inefficiency isn't in the muscles taking up nutrients, so potentially lab meat could be almost 10x as efficient. And given that this is an early stage proof-of-concept I expect most electricity will be generated in much more environmentally friendly ways by the time it's ready for widespread deployment. It better be or we're likely to be screwed for completely unrelated reasons.

      Of course insects are already producing high quality protein at a rate of 9kg of meat per 10kg of feed, so I suppose it's a question of whether Westerners are more freaked out by lab-grown meat or locust-burgers.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    44. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My hobby, cook up bacon when vegetarians are around and watch them look at it longingly and give me dirty looks at the same time.

      I bet you think all those people giving you dirty looks when you smoke in their bedroom are doing it out of tobacco envy, too.

    45. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Hi, I'm the guy you insulted instead of debating. Let's try debating instead, I find it much more civilized.

      You find nothing wrong with franken meat, but you don't like GM food (aka franken food). Now, if you don't like GM food, feel free to give reasons you don't like it, it's possible to disagree and debate the merits of something. Personally I don't care for the business practices of the giant food companies, but that has nothing to do with GM food in particular.

      Considering I have known vegetarians / vegans of one stripe or another most of my life, including dating several of them over the years, I'm inclined to say you have know idea what your talking about. I find your generalization for the reasons that most people become vegetarian to be woefully ignorant. While many people choose for misguided health reasons, some choose because they don't like the fact that an animal died to provide their dinner, some for religious reasons and some for reasons of taste.

      I have introduced no straw man arguments, if you'll note I also picked on meat connoisseurs too. The entire point of the lab grown meat to begin with was to get people to start talking about the ethical implications of meat, lab grown or otherwise. If you don't like the fact that I'm doing the thing that was the very point of this exercise to begin with than your completely missing the point.

    46. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      Let In-n-Out season and cook the synthetic meat. They manage to make bland grass-fed beef delicious.

    47. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure why you insist on it tasting the same since real beef is not necessarily a local optimum of taste. They're aiming in the same general direction and if they get it wrong it won't necessarily taste worse. They got unlucky this time but a priori there was some chance it would have tasted better.

    48. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just looked up that pig study, but it seems a bit unbalanced - note http://www.marklynas.org/2013/06/gmo-pigs-study-more-junk-science/ . The rest of your points are good, no need to rely on flawed studies.

    49. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I imagine it'll have a market among fitness buffs. If it tastes remotely meat-ish and provides the proteins that meat provides, and lacks fat as well, it probably doesn't matter too much if the taste is "good." If you've ever tasted the protein shakes that people buy in bulk at GNC, you'd understand- flavor is not the primary concern.

    50. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Most people who don't eat meat do so because they don't like the taste, the texture

      That makes no sense, because "meat" has no common taste or texture. A fillet of salmon and a pork steak are nothing alike, neither in taste nor texture.

    51. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 1

      A liger.

      It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed... bred for its skills in magic.

    52. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless it becomes cheaper than the real stuff, in which case they'll happily put it into school lunches.

    53. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 2

      1. The pig study has long since been discredited, and there has never been a scientifically accepted study that actually showed any harm from GM foods. These foods have been around for over 20 years, so that is more than enough time for any effects and one can literally say it has been studied for decades.
      2. Modified organisms have a significant survival disadvantage because the seed companies breed them so that they can't breed successive generations.
      3. Cross breeding is difficult when you can't generate successive generations to begin with. They do this for the wrong reasons (to force sales of new product), but the fact remains that they explicitly develop the plants so that they can't be bred in the manner you suggest.
      4. I'm in agreement that patents on food, or any kind of life for that matter are a bad thing.

      I've discovered over the years that most people that are anti-GM take that stance because it was the politically correct thing to do. Once they start to examine the facts their opposition typically drops as unfounded.

    54. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think we'll ever get the taste of real beef out of this process. We need to go to the next step and grow the entire cow in pod of some kind. Feeding it via stomach tube so normally biological processes continue to produce fat and flavor. Stimulate the muscles to simulate natural movements with electrodes. Or maybe we could program that in the DNA so that the cow just walks all the time. Then it would be like walking in place in this vat of fluid.

      We can clone these things and genetically modify them so most of the brain is missing and only the biological processes continue.

      Which is worse to you? A normally bred cow raised/tortured in a meat factory or these cow-vegetables grown in stackable vats of fluid like the fucking Matrix or that video that claims to show the vats where they grow humans for food at the Dulce underground base?

    55. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing I see here is this tends to transcend traditional zealotism.

      I have seen a number of vegans/vegetarians come out pro-vatmeat.
      Vegans/vegetarians are almost always militantly anti-GMO.

      Can the fledgling vatmeat industry avoid being lumped into GMO?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    56. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I'll admit I didn't look into it in much detail. But whether the particular study is strong or not the basic argument remains - we have no idea what the long-term effects of these proteins are, they're not things we've ever been exposed to large quantities of before. Which makes (2) and (3) all the more compelling.

      Insecticides especially are a potential problem, we *need* insects, a hell of a lot more than we need the crops themselves - disrupt the base of the food web and it's only a matter of time before the whole thing crumbles down.

      The big thing with GMOs, unlike every other human technology in history, is that they're self replicating. That right there means we *can't* control them, they will escape into the wild and do their thing, just like *every* species introduced to a new location, ever. And inevitably some of them will have serious side effects on people and/or the environment. Personally I think Monsanto had the right idea with their "kill-switch" gene early on - the wrong motive, but the right idea. Until we're certain this new organism won't cause problems don't give it the option of escaping our control. We'd still potentially have problems with wild crossbreeds, but at least we could try to limit the likelihood of that.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    57. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      1) Okay, sounds like the pig study is suspect at best, but 20 years is hardly enough time to get a good idea of the long-term effects. That's barely one generation, and I'm betting 15 years go nobody was eating nearly as much GMO food as they are today.

      2) and 3) - Wild crossbreeds of many GMO crops have already been found all over the world, and there have been several organic farmers who have attempted to sue Monsanto and/or GMO farms for contaminating their crop. I think one or two have even managed to win recently.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    58. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      1) also - I'll bet you good money that any GMOs from 20 years ago are being phased out due to patent exhaustion, and any studies on the hazards or organism A doesn't necessarily translate to organism A+1.

      I should be clear - I can respect GMOs like golden rice that add necessary nutrients to common foodstuffs - I still think they should be viewed with all the suspicion of an invasive organism, but the presumption should be that they're unlikely to be a problem. But when we start adding things to plants that have never (to our knowledge) been in plants before - such as most all the insecticide and herbicide-resistance proteins - there I think the presumption should be that these are potentially dangerous and should be treated as such.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    59. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You find nothing wrong with franken meat, but you don't like GM food (aka franken food). Now, if you don't like GM food, feel free to give reasons you don't like it, it's possible to disagree and debate the merits of something. Personally I don't care for the business practices of the giant food companies, but that has nothing to do with GM food in particular.

      I don't like the business practices of businesses who create GM food. It has everything to do with GM food because what we are getting has been modified to maximize their profit, not for our benefit. There is also the issue of trust, or rather the lack of it, meaning that currently there is no GM food that I would consider proven safe. There is a high probability that it is safe, but it isn't proven.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    60. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The vegetarians will celebrate because they get to eat 'meat' once more without killing animals.
      That isn't the reason vegetarians don't eat meat. Its because they don't view meat as a healthy food.

      Also the organic people will despise vat grown meat because it only has the processed nutrition its immersed in.

      The only people that celebrate vat grown meat are the people who want "fresh" tasty food grown with space explorers, aka the science junkies.

    61. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      Considering that genes in species like apple and tomato are brought in from wild relatives via breeding, I'd say you're wrong. Furthermore, a good number of the genes inserted were already in the food supply to begin with: the insect resistant proteins were already used in organic farming, the virus resistant traits are derived from the virus the traits protect against (meaning the non-GMO ones have more foreign genes!), the glyphosate tolerant gene is a bacterial form of a protein plants already have. If you are concerned about new genes in the food supply, your true enemy is biodiversity. New crops like kiwis have caused allergies and starfruit have killed people. They introduce a lot more new genes into the food supply than GMOs.

      At any rate, the GMOs in the food supply have been extensively studied. You can muse all you want; if it disagrees with experiment, its wrong.

    62. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Faw · · Score: 1

      People didnt like it because it tastes like despair.

      I miss that show...

    63. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it. People who become vegetarians do not do so because they're so concerned about animals because they have no problem with diary products.

      Wrong. Some people do. Even if they consume dairy products, that doesn't mean that they don't care about the suffering of animals; it could just mean they want to mitigate the harm done to animals or believe that dairy products can be obtained in a suffering-free way.

      OK. Poorly informed people do because it's not like the life of a milk cow is any better than the life of a pig before slaughter. And technically a vegan diet too causes harm to animals since animals are driven away from their natural habitat by farming but by that reasoning the only thing you can do is to cease to exist. However, even though I have friends that are vegetarians (and one vegan IIRC), I consider most people that choose a vegetarian diet to mitigate animal suffering to have very bad reasoning skills. For instance, moose meat can be obtained with very little, if any, suffering if the hunter is skilled. Even whale meat can be obtained that way since nowadays with exploding harpoons death is instantaneous. However, I certainly object to eating whale meat because they're at risk of becoming extinct. Moose on the other hand are not and a moose that lives free in its natural habitat until it's shot by a hunter suffers much less than a milk cow. However, since simply looking at our teeth tells us that we've evolved to be omnivores, I consider it ridiculous to choose a diet with the intention of thus minimizing animal suffering. What should be done is to ensure that animals we use for food are treated well - it's somewhat ironic that as our society has evolved, human suffering has gone down but animal suffering has gone up (on factory farms).

    64. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      A lot of GM detractors don't like it for legal reasons.

      I have a hard time buying that one because the opposition to genetic engineering started with the Flavr Savr tomato before Monsanto even got involved, and continues to university produced GE crops like the Rainbow papaya, NGO ones like Golden Rice, and government produced ones like the wheat that CSIRO developed that Greenpeace thugs destroyed.

      Also due to their patents you may get sued due to cross-pollination OR if you switch crops and yet a bit of last year's crop still grows on your fields. Which does happen.

      No, it doesn't. There has not been a single instance of anyone being sued for simple cross pollination. Cross pollination then knowing and intentional selection and reproduction, yes, but not an accident. That's like saying someone got sued for accidentally receiving a DVD in the mail while conveniently neglecting the part where they were reproducing the DVD in mass quantities.

      GM monster things

      GM monster things? Sounds like you've got more than just legal reasons on your mind.

    65. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      They introduces proteins (insecticides, herbicide resistance, etc) into our food supply that our bodies don't know how to deal with

      That's very wrong for a number of reasons. First, our bodies don't have some list of proteins that can and cannot be digested. If they did than eating a new species with thousands of new genes would be disastrous. At any rate, the proteins inserted into GMO crops are very well understood, and they are not known to be dangerous (in some cases, they were already in the food supply before GMOs). Second, don't act as if insecticides are scary; how do you think plants defend themselves for insect herbivory anyway? They evolved chemical defenses, aka insecticides. You think black pepper, for example, produces piperine in its seeds, in its very offspring, so that other organisms can kill off its next generation? Nope, that is an insecticide. Insecticides are only scary in the absense of the context of plant biology. Third, there has been a massive amount of study on GMO crops. They risk of getting hurt form them is about as high as the risk of getting autism from the MMR vaccine.

      2) Modified organism may have a significant survival advantage and become invasive organisms, with all the problems that entails

      That kind of depends, but in general, crop plants are not known for reproducing so much that they take over native environments, and not all traits confer an advantage in the wild. This is theoretical possible, but does not appear to be a concern with any currently used GMO crops.

      3) Generally speaking the modified species can cross-breed with their natural relatives, potentially making the original stock unavailable if we discover serious problems down the road.

      It first depends on if there are any wild relatives to cross with: corn in Europe, Asia, and Africa won't have any wild relatives for example. Certainly, matters of ecology are less clear cut than matters of utility or health, but that doesn't mean

      4) GMOs tend to be patented, which means we're putting control of our food supply into the hands of a few powerful companies, and eliminating time-honored farming practices in the process, such as keeping part of your harvest to plant the next season.

      The saving of seed was hurt mostly by the development of hybrid seed long ago, not GMO seed. Ditto for the rise of large seed companies. Non-patented, non-GMO alternatives are still available. that farmers generally don't use them should tell you how they feel about the matter.

    66. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      It has everything to do with GM food because what we are getting has been modified to maximize their profit, not for our benefit

      So? How does that imply there is anything wrong with them? That the companies that make these aren't charities doesn't indicate that GMOs are dangerous, and that GMO crops benefit corporations does not mean they cannot also benefit others (like this for example).

      There is a high probability that it is safe, but it isn't proven.

      Safety is a lack of danger. You can not prove a negative.

    67. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by airdweller · · Score: 1

      All the protein powders that I tried tasted awful*. Chicken/turkey breast isn't much better either**. So, athletes and the like might be interested.

      * unless mixed with milk/etc.
      ** unless marinated/etc.

    68. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      10kg of grain for 1kg of meat? Try about half that, and that's at the final stretch for only a very small amount of weight. Keep in mind that grain will not provide the nutrients a human needs (regardless of which grain we're talking about), while that 1kg of meat will.

      Most cows are not fed a steady diet of corn/grain. They graze for most of their lives. They do this on sub-optimal land, harvested land, and various other locations where crops are not or can not be grown.

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    69. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by BiffMalibu · · Score: 1

      Reports are, it tasted lousy, due to nearly zero fat content. Additionally, "real" beef has flavor overtones resultant from the feed the animal was raised on. Thus, corn-fed beef tastes different from grass-fed beef, even if both cows came from the same cows.

      I don't expect vat-raised hamburger, much less steak, being commercially available anytime soon. . . . . simply because if it doesn't TASTE good and have the "mouth feel" of genuine beef, you're not going to get enough buyers to make it a commercial success. . .

      Lets say you have 100 cows of the same breed, and you have 5 fields, each with a different type of grass. Lets say you put 20 cows in each field and allow for 2-3 years to pass. What would be the end result, as far as taste goes? Each field - unique diet input - is going to create a unique taste in the meat. You can eat a steak from a cow from each field, and if your taste sense is sharp enough, you will be able to tell a subtle difference between each of the fields.

      The Matrix - the environment - is VERY important, in a number of subtle ways. I would guess that epigenetics and mRNA play a role in all of this. Each field/grass is going to provide different mRNA to the cows, which will have subtle effects on the way their meat develops. A lab and a natural field are going to provide different Epigenetic Signals (inputs), so we should naturally expect to see different outputs.

      This link explains this concept a bit further: Affects of mRNA.

      The first time I read about this concept, I was instantly reminded of this Jesus quote, from the Gospel of Thomas: (7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

    70. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't put fat in because then it wouldn't be entirely a lab-grown burger. They didn't grow fat cells as part of it because that is more complex to do, but they will be working on that.

    71. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Business practices is a perfectly fair point to be critical on, and one that has a factual basis. Unfortunately business practices like patents and licensing of crops as well as breeding in generational limits on food are practiced regardless of whether or not good is GM. I don't care for those business practices either, but they haven't got a damn thing to do with GM.

      If you want to say you don't like Monsato, Cargill or another such company than just say it. However when you do remember that local favorite company probably has many of the same business practices.

    72. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have known vegetarians that chose the diet for religious, moral, taste and health reasons. Most vegetarians only stick with the diet for a few years before reverting to a normal diet. As with any diet there are advantages and disadvantages to being a vegetarians. I've never met a single vegetarian that wouldn't admit to longing for meat unless they were on the diet from birth.

      Birth? No. Stopped at 14, kept with it for 35 years so far. I just consider it unsavory. I would guess if you had some African come into Europe or America at youthful age, he'd usually become queasy about eating locusts after a few years of abstinence. Not all that unusual if you decide you don't want to waste energy on permanently thinking about the details and implications of something which is just unnecessary.

      I'll readily agree that vocal vegetarians tend not to last much beyond their vocality, once they find nobody to convince of what they can't convince themselves off. Pretty much like any zealot: you either have to proselytize or escalate, or you can't convince yourself.

    73. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      They introduces proteins (insecticides, herbicide resistance, etc) into our food supply that our bodies don't know how to deal with

      Your body is not "dealing with" these proteins. Instead, they are used as energy so that your cells can produce their own proteins, according to your DNA. In fact, the proteins in your, say, cooked egg are not the proteins of the fresh egg, but something quite different. You can eat the egg boiled or raw, your stomach won't care a bit (as long as salmonella is not involved).

      That said, we do need to keep an eye on the stuff we eat. Insecticides/herbicides that can be absorbed by our systems "as is" are much more dangerous (in the spirit of DDT). I will take a GMO with built-in protein-based immunity against a "natural" vegetable sprayed with poison any day of the week.

    74. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If you look at the content of modern foods and the obesity epidemic it should be obvious why companies putting profit before our health is a bad thing.

      By any reasonable standard food can be shown to be safe.

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    75. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Halo1 · · Score: 1

      2. Modified organisms have a significant survival disadvantage because the seed companies breed them so that they can't breed successive generations.

      That is incorrect. The so-called terminator genes were never commercialised because of vehement opposition by many different groups. Breeding successive generations is only stopped by patent lawsuits.

      I've discovered over the years that most people that are anti-GM take that stance because it was the politically correct thing to do. Once they start to examine the facts their opposition typically drops as unfounded.

      You might want to look at your own facts.

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    76. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Sique · · Score: 1
      I know that crossbreeding with closely related species will introduce new genes into an organism - most economically used plants are hybrids anyway. Plants in general seem to be quite forgiveable when it comes to hybridization, differently than for instance mammals, which mostly don't even generate viable offspring if you try to crossbreed, and if they do, then the offspring ist almost ever infertile even after crossbreeding closely related species.

      It is still a different mechanism at work than GM. A hybridized plant, while often fertile, will not yield seeds that produce the same hybrid again, it will mostly produce something similar to the wild plants the hybrid comes from. You can't grow a Golden Delicious apple tree from the seeds in a Golden Delicious. What you will get is a crap apple tree. Hybrids are a mixture of chromosomes from different species, and if you try to breed them, they will split up into their original species again. Getting hybrid seeds out into the wild thus is quite unproblematic.

      GM is different. The new gene is directly inserted into the DNA. And it will survive further breeding at its place, if the designer of the GMO has not added Terminator functionality to prevent breeding. The piece of DNA that was introduced via the gene vector can get loose again (the retro virus which carried it into the DNA is still embedded there), and then infect other organisms - not necessarily of the same species. This does not happen with crossbred organisms. You could create superweeds just by having several different strains of GM plants in the same region which are genetically modified to be resistant against different types of weedkillers.

      I don't say GM is bad (you seem under the impression I would, which explains the tone of your reply), I just want to point out that putting crossbreeding and GM in the same camp is a fundamentally flawed argument - because they are fundamentally different.

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      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    77. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Parafilmus · · Score: 1

      The "PETA" vegetarians will find something wrong with whatever you try and serve them...

      If you'd read the article, you'd know that PETA is actually funding this research. They've been pushing the development of lab-grown meat for years.

      eg: http://science.slashdot.org/story/08/04/21/126253/peta-offers-x-prize-for-artificial-meat

    78. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by bfandreas · · Score: 1

      A lot of GM detractors don't like it for legal reasons.

      I have a hard time buying that one because the opposition to genetic engineering started with the Flavr Savr tomato before Monsanto even got involved, and continues to university produced GE crops like the Rainbow papaya, NGO ones like Golden Rice, and government produced ones like the wheat that CSIRO developed that Greenpeace thugs destroyed.

      Also due to their patents you may get sued due to cross-pollination OR if you switch crops and yet a bit of last year's crop still grows on your fields. Which does happen.

      No, it doesn't. There has not been a single instance of anyone being sued for simple cross pollination. Cross pollination then knowing and intentional selection and reproduction, yes, but not an accident. That's like saying someone got sued for accidentally receiving a DVD in the mail while conveniently neglecting the part where they were reproducing the DVD in mass quantities.

      GM monster things

      GM monster things? Sounds like you've got more than just legal reasons on your mind.

      Nice selective quoting to completely twist what I've said.
      So you are not buying that a lot of GM detractors do that for GM companies shady business practices? That would imply that all GM detractors were luddites. Well I'm not.

      Also do not force me to direct you to the Monsanto entry on Wikipedia. There you can read all about them and their colourful litigation history.

      I would consider court records facts and those point to Monsanto using patent law to strongarm farmers.


      What you just did was shabby and frankly a bit suspicious.

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    79. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately to force additional sales most GM plants are bred so that they cannot generate subsequent generations

      This actually is a common misconception. GM plants can reproduce, it's just that there are a few caveats to it. First and foremost, all commercially available GMO seed is also hybrid seed. Hybrid varieties have been around for decades longer than genetic engineering, and while they give hybrid vigor to the plant, they also mean the plant will not reproduce true to seed and if you save and replant the seed you will have an inferior crop next year. Many farmers long ago decided hybrid seed was worth it. Genetic engineering is just, basically, an add on to this in that sense. It isn't done to force sales (although seed companies no doubt appreciate that secondary effect) so much as it is a law of life on earth. Companies didn't do it, that's just how it is. Of course, GMO plants don't necessarily HAVE to be hybrid (and there are cases I can think of where you wouldn't want them to be), its just that they are sold as such.

      The other issue here is that of contracts. When you buy seed from a company like Monsanto they require that you sign a contract saying you won't save seed. Most of the times seed wouldn't be saved anyway as a result of the hybrid issue, but they probably don't want someone buying seed then breeding their own varieties with the transgenic trait.

      Of course, there is genetic use restriction technology, aka the infamous terminator technology, but it is presently not in use, nor has it ever been, contrary to what many anti-biotech activists would have you believe.

    80. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The argument that fat free meat is lousy is baseless - Have you ever tried Kangaroo meat? Even if we consider your assumption for one second, what stops you from adding fat flavouring to the way its cooked i.e. Garlic butter? Even now cooked chicken whole heartedly relies on external favours to taste good.

      On the plus side all the hyper nutrition conscious peeps that go through immense effort to cut the fat from the meat before cooking would very much welcome a fat free option.

    81. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      3) Did I say wild? There's plenty of evidence that GMOs can and do cross-fertilize with their non-GMO cousins. And if in 40 years we discover that the GMOs have some unsuspected long-term profit and there is no longer any "pure" source stock left due to interbreeding then we have a problem.

      4) That farmers tend to use GMOs is a reflection on yield and profit margins, nothing else. As such it has zero relevance to the discussion of risks.

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    82. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Immerman · · Score: 1

      It most assuredly is - one way or another it "deals with" every protein that enters it - some it breaks down into useful amino acids, some pass through untouched if the proper enzyme or acid doesn't exist to break it down, and some like prions are infectious and refold your bodies own proteins into copies of themselves.

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    83. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by benhattman · · Score: 1

      Right. Because, after all, McDonalds is so successful because they produce the best tasting hamburgers in the world, right?

    84. Re:Zealouts and Luddites by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      However, vegetarians are motivated by other reasons - such as a healthier diet that makes it practically impossible to get fat even if you eat a lot.

      While most of your post is spot on, I think this is a little bit propaganda. You can be vegetarian and eat incredibly unhealthy on a diet filled with starches and sugars and hydrogenated vegetable oils. I have had quite a number of vegetarian, Indian coworkers and friends who had an unhealthy weight.

      (That said, most people who make a conscious choice to convert to a diet radically different from the mainstream go to one that's healthier than the mainstream.)

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  9. Ethical & Environmental by saibot834 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think lab-grown meat is the future. For quite a lot of people, meat is just too tasty to be given up completely. At the same time, it is an environmental disaster, with the United Nations estimating that animal farming has a greater effect on climate change than ALL of the worlds transportation (that is, cars, trucks, trains, ships and airplanes) combined. Some even say it's responsible for 51% of greenhouse gases emissions. Additionally, factory farming causes billions of animals to suffer, which is highly unethical. Lab-grown meat avoids both problems.

    Until we can buy lab-grown meat, we should still go Veg, but once lab-grown meat is available, the abolishment of the mass factory farming is much more realistic.

    1. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Xest · · Score: 2

      I was amused to see the BBC comment at the end of the article that because Chinese and Brazilian meat production seemed to have plateaued that this was a solution in search of a problem.

      It's as if they're entirely unaware that even if they have plateaued there are still major benefits to producing meats with decreased healthcare concerns (we can avoid things like CJD and TB in lab meat), decreased emissions, decreased destruction habitat for meat production.

      This is an important thing even if the human race stopped growing today, even if it reversed somewhat.

    2. Re:Ethical & Environmental by csumpi · · Score: 1

      Awesome. You can embrace the new kind of "meat" and feel good while chomping on lab grown white strips of gristle grown from the leftovers of my steak dinner.

    3. Re:Ethical & Environmental by nbritton · · Score: 1

      The only thing that is a disaster is having 7.1 billion human mouths to feed. Earth has a finite maximum capacity load, and it sounds like we have reached it. We apparently have around 24 million square miles of habitable land, if you divide that out per person it comes to 18 sq. ft per person. 18...

      now get off my lawn!

    4. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forget we have nearly infinite amounts of habitable land above and below the surface and the entire resources of the solar system. We're not running out of anything, anytime soon. Except Helium, and we'll get plenty of that when the sun goes red giant.

    5. Re:Ethical & Environmental by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      We apparently have around 24 million square miles of habitable land, if you divide that out per person it comes to 18 sq. ft per person.

      Someone forgot to square his unit conversion. 24M square miles is nearly 7x10^14 square feet. That seems to give closer 100,000 square feet per person, or a bit more than 2 acres.

    6. Re:Ethical & Environmental by saibot834 · · Score: 1

      Your calculations are wrong, it's 0.87 hectares of land per person or roughly the size of a football field. Still a shockingly small area. If every person in the world had a western meat-rich diet, you'd need a whole lot of earths to feed them.

    7. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing that is a disaster is having 7.1 billion human mouths to feed. Earth has a finite maximum capacity load, and it sounds like we have reached it. We apparently have around 24 million square miles of habitable land, if you divide that out per person it comes to 18 sq. ft per person. 18...

      now get off my lawn!

      Apparently, you don't think it's a big enough problem to off yourself.

      So quit telling other people how to live - or not, in this case.

    8. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Ardyvee · · Score: 1

      What would be your instance on hunting? In theory, the hunters try to minimize the suffering of their prey, aiming to get quick, as painless as possible kills.

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    9. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      24,000,000 square miles = 6.69x10^14 square feet. Divide by 7,100,000,000 and you get 94,225 square feet per person. You might want to get off your own lawn and go to math class.

    10. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Immerman · · Score: 1

      IIRC estimates are that we're currently at 160% of sustainable capacity...

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Insects are also a very viable option embraced by most of the world's population (though unfortunately not the portion that does most of the eating). 9kg of extremely nutritious low-fat meat per 10kg of feed, versus 1kg of beef. Let the locust-burgers begin!

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    12. Re:Ethical & Environmental by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > having 7.1 billion human mouths to feed. Earth has a finite maximum capacity load, and it sounds like we have reached it.

      As long as Home Sapiens act like Home Stupidus then yes, you are correct, however we are nowhere even close to the 24+ billion that the planet can support if we had better Planning and Execution. Greed corrupts and eventually destroys all things.

    13. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Hatta · · Score: 2

      Why do you assume lab grown meat is going to be more environmentally friendly? It's definitely going to require more energy input than cattle, which are essentially solar powered. All those climate controlled incubators have to run on something.

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    14. Re:Ethical & Environmental by mjr167 · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, we will just ban it cause we can't let all the farmers go out of business.

    15. Re:Ethical & Environmental by OneAhead · · Score: 1

      Not if you believe the graph that comes on your screen when you scroll down on the BBC link.

      Living organisms are incredibly inefficient at converting their feedstock into meat. Also, "essentially solar powered" is only true for pasture-raised cattle. Which is a tiny percentage of the cattle production in developed countries. But even when only considering pasture-raised cattle, you could feed 20 times as many people form the same area of pasture if you would grow, say, soy on it.

    16. Re:Ethical & Environmental by Princeofcups · · Score: 1

      I think lab-grown meat is the future. For quite a lot of people, meat is just too tasty to be given up completely.

      That's solved in one generation.

      --
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    17. Re:Ethical & Environmental by dubbreak · · Score: 1

      But even when only considering pasture-raised cattle, you could feed 20 times as many people form the same area of pasture if you would grow, say, soy on it.

      And when we are talking vats of meat that's something that can be done in an urban area in a multistory building (rather than cutting down forested areas for cattle). As the earth's population continues to grow we are going to have to get into higher density food production. Tilapia is a good example of the direction things are going in. An excellent feed conversion ratio, quick growing, can be grown in high density etc. Cattle has a poor FCR in comparison.

      --
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  10. Witch ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But who witches the witchers ?

  11. Tasteless by captain_dope_pants · · Score: 4, Informative

    A programme about this was on BBC Radio 4 a couple of years back. IIRC both the scientist and the presenter tried a little bit of "burger" grown in a lab and it was tasteless. Not horrible - just.... nothing much. Also the texture wasn't quite right.

    I think the scientist said that meat (muscle) derives a lot of its taste from the surrounding fat when it's cooked - and, of course, this had no fat.

    The next stage on was to make it taste nice - perhaps in the past two years they've got somewhere with it.

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    1. Re:Tasteless by intermodal · · Score: 1

      They'll probably add some lab-grown garlic salt.

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    2. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds ready for the Burger chains right now

    3. Re:Tasteless by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      That stands to reason. The taste of meat comes from the food the animal eats over its lifetime. Beef cultured in a lab would have in it none of that which makes beef taste like beef.

    4. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fat is crucial to meat flavor. They're not adding it, so the meat substitute is dull. Unless it comes to market extraordinarily cheap (which it won't, meat replacement products are dearer than choice cuts), it won't be a success. Just another niche product for the wealthy that will be "10 years away" joining the queue with cancer cures and hydrogen fueled consumer cars.

    5. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want your chickens to taste really chickeny, feed them on chicken.

    6. Re:Tasteless by Organic+Brain+Damage · · Score: 1

      Fat isn't the flavor. Fat does improve the perception of flavor. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf061537k

    7. Re:Tasteless by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      You need the fat -- go buy some steak tartar, which is basically hamburger without a fleck of fat in it, and make a burger without any cheese. It's completely disgusting.

      They're gonna need to have lab-grown beef fat to mix in with it.

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    8. Re:Tasteless by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I bet it you wrapped it in bacon and slathered it with butter, it would taste pretty nice.

    9. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may have missed a joke, sir.

    10. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are not supposed to bake or cook steak tartar you are supposed to eat it raw.
      I love it on a sandwich, maybe with some peppers or with unions or with capers.

    11. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to change my previous statement about that you are supposed to eat steak tartar raw, we in the Netherlands have to versions of
      steak tartar (I was confused by the Dutch names) they are different in texture:
      - We eat one raw, we call this filet american, it is really smooth and can be spread on sandwiches easily.
      - We eat one baked, we call this runder tartaar, it has a rougher structure like the meat used in hamburgers. We make this like hamburgers, but we prepare it carefully in butter (which I guess adds the fat) and salt and pepper. We don't eat it with cheese or anything else. It is often served together with vegetables and potatoes.

    12. Re:Tasteless by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but deep-fried sawdust is still tastier and cheaper.

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      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    13. Re:Tasteless by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Actually it does both; fatty animal tissue contains many delicious compounds, and it also modulates flavour perception.

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    14. Re:Tasteless by linuxpyro · · Score: 1

      Just add enough enough worcestershire sauce and it'll be fine.

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    15. Re:Tasteless by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 1

      Fat isn't the flavor. Fat does improve the perception of flavor.

      Ummmmm... flavor is a perception. The phrase "perception of flavor" is repetitive.

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      Happy people make bad consumers.
    16. Re:Tasteless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it is the tofu of the (synthetic) meat world.

    17. Re:Tasteless by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      Just add enough enough worcestershire sauce and it'll be fine.

      Ah, another traditional British chef. Just what we needed.

      --
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  12. Predicted Results by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 4, Funny

    Predicted results, in order of severity (best results first)

    1) "But when are you starting to serve the lab-grown meat?"
    2) "Tasty!"
    3) "Not bad"
    4) "Tastes like chicken"
    5) Vomiting
    6) Addictive; taster cannot stop eating... literally
    7) Turns taster into cow
    8) Turns taster into cannibalistic mutant psychotics
    9) Triggers the Rapture
    10) "Tastes like McDonalds"

  13. Casein by scorp1us · · Score: 0

    The main protein in milk and meat is casein. However casein has been linked to adverse health effects. So just as when people say "scientists invented new way to grow mice? Just what we need, more mice!" I have to comment that casein isn't the protein we should be culturing for. From a health perspective a bean burger is much better for you, safer (ground chuck is the riskiest meat from a contamination perspective) and is in my experience just as yummy or more-so if you don't like that rubbery meat texture.

    Before you get all on me for seeming like a vegan, I still eat about 8oz of beef a week. I'm transitioning off of risky and unhealthy foods, but I don't think I'll ever be able to give up meat entirely, That said, the american diet is still emphasizing the wrong foods by orders of magnitudes.

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    1. Re:Casein by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      I'm not seeing any evidence linked that casein is in meat, just milk, or that it has any conclusive negative health effects. Even if it does exist in significant quantities in beef cultured cells, it probably wouldn't be present in any non-mammalian meat source.

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    2. Re:Casein by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It's all about preferences. I think a grilled portobello can be delicious, but when I get a burger craving, I want ground beef (or some combination thereof). That "rubbery" texture that you describe is exactly what I am looking for. The bean-based stuff I've tried seems mushy to me, or has that funky texture that makes tofu so off-putting to many.

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    3. Re:Casein by airdweller · · Score: 1

      "The main protein in milk and meat is casein [wikipedia.org]. "
      Have you actually read what that article says?

    4. Re:Casein by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      The main protein in milk and meat is casein. However casein has been linked to adverse health effects.

      Casein is not found in meat, much less its main protein. I don't know where you read that crazy idea. Casein is radically different in structure from myofribullar proteins that give muscle its strength and from myoglobins which store oxygen which are two of the more common proteins in meat.

      And other than allergic reactions, pretty much the only people purporting adverse health effects from casein are the authors of "The China Study," who mix some common sense, pro-vegetarian suggestions with some questionable and some really, really bad science. For your perusal, he is a extremely detailed takedown of the science in the book, including the casein/aflatoxin study.

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  14. Already been done by omnichad · · Score: 1

    Tastes like despair.

    1. Re:Already been done by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Well done. I came here to say that.

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    2. Re:Already been done by omnichad · · Score: 1

      What a seriously underrated show. And one that's gone unnoticed by most of the nerd crowd for being so mainstream in its airtime/channel.

    3. Re:Already been done by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It must have been terribly promoted. I never even heard of it until a physicist friend hooked me up with it online.

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    4. Re:Already been done by lordofthechia · · Score: 1

      For those following this thread and really hoping someone will say it, the show is Better Off Ted [imdb.com] .

      The episode from this quote is from Season 1 Episode 2. All around great show. Both seasons are on Netflix and Amazon prime instant streaming. If the first couple of episodes don't convince you, jump to season 1 episode 12 "Jabberwocky".
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    5. Re:Already been done by Valdrax · · Score: 1

      Already covered by #10.

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  15. Brin is involved? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  16. This is how by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The zombie apocalypse begins...

  17. Holy crap.... by wbr1 · · Score: 1

    No Soylent Green jokes yet? Somebody.. please step up!

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    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:Holy crap.... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      What does this have to do with soybeans and lentils? Oh, wait you were probably referring to the later "inspired by the book" movie weren't you?

      Not much to do with people either, though human *is* probably the most nutritious meat out there (for us at least). But let's face down one ick-factor at a time shall we?

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  18. "It tastes familiar . . ." by Rob+the+Bold · · Score: 1

    So what does it taste like?

    Also, does it respond to music?

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    I am not a crackpot.
  19. why go burger? why not sausage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    honestly, I think you could make sausages, or sausage-like meat products (kebabs, meatloaf, dim sims, etc) that would be barely distinguishable from the "real" thing, right now - and that's not even mentioning Soylent Green...

    1. Re:why go burger? why not sausage? by lxs · · Score: 1

      Edward G. Robinson waxing lyrical over Real Food is the first thing that comes to my mind when thinking about Soylent Green in this context. I doubt that vat-grown beef will taste anything like beef from free range cattle. Hydroponic tomatoes taste nothing like those grown in soil and in that case you have the entire organism producing the product, not just some cells in glucose water.

      But if it's cheap and tastes like nothing, it will be perfect for fast food production. Slop some liquid smoke on it and can you feed millions of overweight underemployed slobs.

    2. Re:why go burger? why not sausage? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Well, not much challenge in making artificially grown meat taste like a bunch of spices designed to hide the fact that you're basically eating offal.

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    3. Re:why go burger? why not sausage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that was the point.

  20. Anti-GM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The anti-GM Luddites will go crazy because this is arguably the most anti-organic food on the planet.

    I just have a problem with food being controlled by IP law.

    I have a problem with farmers being sued by Monsanto because they are using their own seed, but are buried by legal costs because said multi-national is scared that their precious IP is being used without them collecting their pound of flesh.

    I also do not believe the GM food industry's claim of safety. Because it has been shown time and time again that Big Corp will say and do anything to protect their profits.

  21. 9:00 am Eastern by loufoque · · Score: 1

    9:00 am Eastern what? Eastern Europe doesn't have that much difference with Western Europe.

    1. Re:9:00 am Eastern by xaxa · · Score: 1

      9:00 am Eastern what? Eastern Europe doesn't have that much difference with Western Europe.

      The other timezone is probably wrong too. 14:00 Dutch time (that's written on the Dutch website) is 13:00 London time, currently Western European Summer Time, and 12:00 UTC (which is Western European Time, i.e. London in the winter).

      Editors/submitters: when giving timezones, give UTC, and (if you wish) time local to the event.

    2. Re:9:00 am Eastern by loufoque · · Score: 1

      So it's 14:00 CEST.

  22. Is it kosher?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are lab produced "meats" subject to Kosher laws?!? If not, the most important next project is lab bacon...

  23. Hufu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  24. Taste test by Endo13 · · Score: 1

    Mmm. This is a tasty burger!

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  25. Kosher bacon by eliphalet · · Score: 1

    Of course, it's still not from a cud-chewing cloven-hoofed animal. Whether it is meat is a more philosophical question.

  26. This is meat for the 99% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coz organic is for the 1%. You can buy it too but you can't afford it.

  27. Vege burgers by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2

    I'm still skeptical these will do so well because, quite frankly, vege burgers and other meat substitutes are actually very good alternatives to meat already. I won't claim they're as good, but they are pretty damned close and, considering that they are easier to make, less chance of food borne illness, and healthier for you and the environment, I'd recommend giving them a shot. If the vat grown stuff can be better in cost and taste, then maybe it will do well, but I think the main advantage it has is that there is stigma on the concept of vege burgers and the like. And if protein is a concern, between things like various beans and quinoa, that can be handled without meat too.

    This is a cool idea and I hope no foodie luddites start with the fearmongering (I guarantee in a sooner or later someone out there will start claiming vat grown meat causes cancer), but really I think there is a suitable, and quite possibly superior, technology already here.

  28. Let me know when it's not invite-hyped. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    When this is something backed by someone that doesn't use deliberate exclusion as a business model, perhaps it might mean something.

    Until then, it's a parlor trick.

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  29. Bring on the British vatburgers! by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    I'm wondering if they replicated the fractional horse meat content in their vat meat.

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  30. Too absolute by valkenar · · Score: 1

    Depends where you get your milk. There's a farm pretty close to me that sells milk and you can go see the cows wandering around in a field grazing. They may not be 100% as happy as some theoretical happiest cow, but I find it hard to picture anyone finding a serious problem with it who isn't espousing some extreme fringe ideal of animal freedom and independence.

    All of that is to say that someone might be a vegetarian for animal welfare reasons and drink milk from such a place and that would be logically consistent.

    1. Re:Too absolute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends where you get your milk. There's a farm pretty close to me that sells milk and you can go see the cows wandering around in a field grazing. They may not be 100% as happy as some theoretical happiest cow, but I find it hard to picture anyone finding a serious problem with it who isn't espousing some extreme fringe ideal of animal freedom and independence.

      I certainly don't dispute that such farms exist but I omitted it for brevity since at the moment you really need to go through an effort to find diary products from those farms. However, cows are so domesticated that they really depend on good care by humans for a good life (frequent milking as well as application of fly repellent). Their movement is of course very restricted in the winter and every cow needs to touch the electric fence at least once to learn where to stay.

      All of that is to say that someone might be a vegetarian for animal welfare reasons and drink milk from such a place and that would be logically consistent.

      Well, that is taking your diet beyond "going vegetarian" and as I tried to highlight, an animal-friendly diet doesn't necessitate going vegetarian since some meat is probably the least animal suffering causing food there is. Animals that live all their lives freely in their natural habitat and die instantly from a bullet suffer about as little as possible when ending up as prey for the omnivores that we are.

      In general, though, turning back the clock in our food production would reduce animal suffering. Old-fashioned farms were better than factory farms and when food was scarce people did treat animals that provided it or became it better. I certainly don't object to legal measures enforcing better treatment of animals because whilst it would increase the price of food compared with current factory farm food, such food would cost less than it does currently because at the moment animal-friendly farms can charge a premium. If legislation forced all farms to be like that, competition would reduce prices. Obviously import tariffs would also need to be applied so that domestic production could compete.

  31. Aha! I knew it! Sergei Brin caught red-handed... by OneAhead · · Score: 1

    ...violating his "don't be evil" motto.

    Just a "lab-grown meat will have a milkshake texture and taste like tofu" stereotype joke. In reality, I'm really all kinds of excited about this proof of concept because when it eventually becomes commercially viable, it will greatly diminish animal suffering and at the same time allow us to feed more people off the limited agricultural resources on the planet. And now some food experts say it doesn't taste half bad, what more do you want?!

  32. Morally tough call? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a morally tough call today as it is.

    It is? It contains far too much easily-digestible protein for my life style, and the foods and agricultural areas needed are more than 10 times than if I just ate vegetables in the first place. If everybody did it, much fewer humans would starve. We pump money which are converted into weapons into corrupt third state countries which use both to render peasants without land and income in order to produce our lifestock food and defend it from starving people. The high levels of purine and easily digestible animal protein are the most relevant health danger in "civilized" countries.

    On the other hand, it tastes well if you are used to it.

    Man, what a morally tough call. Makes me wonder whether the U.S. is not actually well represented by their currently somewhat morally challenged government.

  33. Pseudohypotheticals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If we ever reach a level of technology where there are no health or taste reasons why a synthetic meat would be undesirable, I simply wouldn't ever buy meat that used to be alive.

    Get off it. There are health and taste reasons (taste is acquired after all) why conventionally butchered meat is undesirable, and that does not faze you.

  34. not in the hands of the American Food Industry by P-niiice · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I support the idea, but I won't be eating this if the American Food Industry is going to be growing this stuff. We're too lax on labeling, too focused on cost and profit, and not careful enough about consumer health over here. who knows what kind of ingenious additives they'll throw in the mix to further engage our taste buds or cut costs at the expense of our health?

  35. Now just get it down to .49 c lbs. by ralphaostrander · · Score: 1

    And everyone can be happy.

  36. Vegetable Rights Activists by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

    I like meat, I do.

    But you know who seems to be really obsessed with meat? Vegetarians.

    For people who don't like meat, they seem to eat a lot of vegetables that are mashed up and shaped to look like meat. [In his "vegetarian" voice]: "I find meat repulsive. I'll have a veggie burger with fake bacon, and can you serve it to me dressed like a cow? I don't like meat; I just like to call meat late at night and hang up. Let's drive by meat's house. Does meat ever ask about me? [singing] I don't care! I ain't missin' you at all...missin' youuuuuu...."

    You never see that the other way: [meat eater's voice]: "I will have the steak and can you make it taste like tofu?"

    -J. Gaffigan

  37. Prescient "The Parking Lot is Full" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://plif.courageunfettered.com/archive/wc263.gif

    Captcha: "organs"

  38. We'll meet the meat by blahblahwoofwoof · · Score: 1

    The waiter approached.

    "Would you like to see the menu?" he said, "or would you like meet the Dish of the Day?"

    "Huh?" said Ford.

    "Huh?" said Arthur.

    "Huh?" said Trillian.

    "That's cool," said Zaphod, "we'll meet the meat."

    --Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

  39. Surely wouldn't be very fresh by Smirker · · Score: 1

    I've been following this story for what seems forever now. I'd like to know how he's kept his beef fresh all this time. Did he lace it with preservatives? Freeze it? Cure it?

  40. Kosherness status by qbzzt · · Score: 1

    In general, things that are so small they're invisible to the naked eye tend to be Halachically irrelevant. So the fact that a few stem cells from a pig were involved might not render it pork. I can see it being judged Kosher.

    Of course, IANAR.

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    1. Re:Kosherness status by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      That's true, but I think that's supposed to be more about contamination that's impossible to know about or realistically avoid. I would think that something purposefully derived from a pig, even if it only contains a few cells worth of matter that was ever part of the pig, would be considered not kosher.

      I'm not a rabbi either, but I know quite a few, and now I'm really curious to hear what they think.

    2. Re:Kosherness status by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      In general, things that are so small they're invisible to the naked eye tend to be Halachically irrelevant. So the fact that a few stem cells from a pig were involved might not render it pork. I can see it being judged Kosher.

      Of course, IANAR.

      ANY lawyer could then argue that anything is kosher. After all, whatever it is is a collection of individual things that are invisible to the naked eye. Just how homogeneous and cohesive does something have to be before kosher matters?

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    3. Re:Kosherness status by qbzzt · · Score: 1

      Any lawyer would be laughed out of the beit din (= Rabbinical court). Jewish religious law is based to a large extend on precedent, and calling some things "kosher" and others "not kosher" has ample precedent.

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    4. Re:Kosherness status by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      And yet, from what you said before, that wouldn't hold true for the product you took from the non-kosher pork. Because no one has asked, "How small a piece of pork must I cut before I can eat it and still be kosher?" From the same culture that was around when Leucippus was around?

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    5. Re:Kosherness status by qbzzt · · Score: 1

      I think food doesn't count, in general, unless it as at least "an olive's worth". However, things that impart taste count when they are enough to impart taste. In this case, the pig cells clearly impart taste.

      However, the question of eating an amount so small as to be invisible wouldn't have happened. Or at least, would have been considered ridiculous. Just because a pig drowned in the Jordan river wouldn't make the water forbidden.

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    6. Re:Kosherness status by mdielmann · · Score: 1

      I think food doesn't count, in general, unless it as at least "an olive's worth". However, things that impart taste count when they are enough to impart taste. In this case, the pig cells clearly impart taste.

      However, the question of eating an amount so small as to be invisible wouldn't have happened. Or at least, would have been considered ridiculous. Just because a pig drowned in the Jordan river wouldn't make the water forbidden.

      lol

      I don't usually put that in comments, but this one is worthy. I'm pretty sure that most religions have certain elements where hair-splitting is taken to a fine art. The fact that orthodox Jews don't count some things as kosher unless it has (one of) the correct stamp(s) on it is an example.

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    7. Re:Kosherness status by qbzzt · · Score: 1

      Not exactly. The stamps mean that somebody verified that the food is kosher. When we're talking about food that comes from a factory with thirty different ingredients, it is a bit hard to check it yourself. More natural foods don't require such a certification.

      But yes - hair splitting is a fine art in Judaism. We have a whole encyclopedia of arguments (the Talmud), and often the hairs are split into multiple parts, lengthwise.

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  41. Obligatory Simpsons clip by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

    This so reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbp8jzAI-HY&t=7m40s

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    John_Chalisque