German Federal Police Helicopter Circles US Consulate

New submitter mwissel writes "The German Federal Police ('Bundespolizei') had sent out an helicopter in late August to fly over the U.S. consulate in Frankfurt and take photos from only 60 meters height — reportedly to search for spy antennae and other espionage related equipment on the building rooftops. A government spokesmen more or less confirmed the purpose of the flight, and it is said that Merkel's chief of staff, Ronald Pofalla, gave the order. This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs. There was, of course, no word about any findings. It also remains unclear whether this was just plain provocation or a PR-stunt for the upcoming federal elections in Germany on September 22nd."

Comments

Trusting them...

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a fox!

Re:Trusting them...

[gagol]

US embassy in Ottawa have a dome. Inside the dome there is a huge array of spyware equipment. Dont tell anyone!

Re:Trusting them...

[davester666]

Why? CSIS is practically a subdivision of the CIA. They will do whatever the CIA or FBI want here in Canada, including spying on Canadians.

But of course

[Black Parrot]

This is remarkable, because Pofalla so far stood out with a very U.S.-friendly attitude in the debate around NSA surveillance programs.

I.e. no problem, so long as we aren't spying on him.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

And betides, it is just a plain old silly heli, not a drone!

Re:But of course

[cold fjord]

I.e. no problem, so long as we aren't spying on him.

Don't worry, they can spy back.

The German Prism: Berlin Wants to Spy Too

Re:But of course

[AHuxley]

Cold for most post ww2 West Germany had a constant hunt for anyone who was a threat to their new democracy.
Too communist, fascist, spreading a cult faith and the West German gov would get interested as noted in West German law.
East Germany had their own special role to play for their Russian liberators.
West Germany was expected to understand its role as a trusted third party in the wider NSA networks.
Unlike some parts of the world this aspect was known rather than having to be exposed by whistelblowers in the face of years of domestic legal reform.

Re:But of course

[rea1l1]

Most countries don't try to police the world.

Re:But of course

[gmhowell]

Most countries don't try to police the world.

Certainly not the Germans...

Re: But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Said like a good policeman.

Re:But of course

[Omestes]

Trolling or genuine, who knows?

Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us? Also, who made our judgements the so-called correct ones? And how can we actually claim authority over international morality when we're pretty much assholes, and do pretty much everything we condemn in others?

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

Believe me, the world needs a cop. And Americans make the best ones. If not for American occupation, Europe would still be in a constant state of war. And the Soviet Union did its part also, even if they are a bit hamfisted about it. I, for one, am very happy to see somebody enforcing some law and order on the planet. I don't think you understand the condition we would be in without it. American power is keeping the peace. You should be very grateful that you can sleep as comfortably as you do.

Americans aren't enforcing law and order on the planet. They are enforcing law and order when it suits them for their economical and geopolitical interests. It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

Re:But of course

[narcc]

Seriously though, if we take your argument at face value, we're forced to ask; who gets to police us?

Why, the citizens of that great nation, of course!

Surely, those elected to the highest offices in the land will represent the will of the people.

Re:But of course

[narcc]

It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

So ... just like the police then, eh?

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

So ... just like the police then, eh?

Not really, no. I don't know where you live but over here in Europe (at least in several countries in Europe) most of the police work is really done to enforce "law and order". Of course, there is the occasional political arrest and other police actions that are deceitful and/or manipulative, but it is the exception, not the rule.

The foreign actions of the USA is quite the opposite: You may find one being genuinely innocent, but the overwhelming majority of it is just here to server internal US interests, not "law and order".

Re:But of course

[1s44c]

Is that what they teach you in American schools?

They taught me about the balance of power. If the stalemate between Russian and the US ever became too lopsided the bigger side would began subjugating other countries to it's side and looting the world. Guess what happened? The US did exactly that.

Re:But of course

[1s44c]

Most countries don't try to police the world.

Certainly not the Germans...

That's a good point actually. The Germans, The British empire, the Ottoman empire, The Roman Empire, and many others, either learned from their mistakes or fell apart. The lesson is you can beat down all comers for a while but you can't do it forever. This is the lesson the US Empire is going to learn.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

... you can beat down all comers ...

Economic prosperity depends on expansion. Remember the formula for area of a circle? The problem with expansion policy is that growth is constant (the radius) but the cost of that growth (area) is exponential. Even with technological innovation, someday the cost of moving resources becomes prohibitive. A digital workforce, where the people can be electronically policed changes the cost structure enormously.

Although many governments have kow-towed to the US empire, the US depends on military hardware to protect their telecommunications empire. Expanding that empire means more resources consumed by security and administration. Paradoxically the US isn't spending money to expand their empire but to control their own citizens. We're seeing that now via the TSA stop and search, the police 'stop and frisk', SWAT teams for department of Health and Education, and legally-excused theft by US police forces.

Re:But of course

[RaceProUK]

Surely, those elected to the highest offices in the land will represent the will of the people.

My sarcasm meter just exploded.

Re:But of course

[lxs]

Economic prosperity mostly depends on international trade which in turn depends on goodwill.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Believe me, the world needs a cop. And Americans make the best ones. If not for American occupation, Europe would still be in a constant state of war. And the Soviet Union did its part also, even if they are a bit hamfisted about it. I, for one, am very happy to see somebody enforcing some law and order on the planet. I don't think you understand the condition we would be in without it. American power is keeping the peace. You should be very grateful that you can sleep as comfortably as you do.

Goddamn/i, son; you really don't know much about history, geopolitics or the state of the world in general, do you?

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he was referring to the police of the USA. Just like their military, corrupted and trained to sniff out the money.

Re:But of course

[drinkypoo]

Economic prosperity depends on expansion.

You state it like a fact. It isn't.

Re:But of course

[drinkypoo]

It's just manipulative police, nothing to do with law and order.

So ... just like the police then, eh?

Not really, no. I don't know where you live but over here in Europe (at least in several countries in Europe) most of the police work is really done to enforce "law and order". Of course, there is the occasional political arrest and other police actions that are deceitful and/or manipulative, but it is the exception, not the rule.

That's odd, if I google for "selective enforcement in the UK" for example then I get lots of results. Pick any country with good english-language reporting, you'll see the same.

Re:But of course

[SuricouRaven]

Depends on district. There's a lot of variation. Some areas the police are truly serving the public, others they a de facto mafia enriching themselves through theft and extortion.

Re:But of course

[internerdj]

I'm not so sure I want to be on that boat for this one. That means I'm partially responsible. Of course that would also mean that I had meaningful choices.

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

That's odd, if I google for "selective enforcement in the UK" for example then I get lots of results. Pick any country with good english-language reporting, you'll see the same.

So you go with the assumption that a selective enforcement gets the same internet-related coverage than a regular enforcement. So, with this new light, do you think the fact that there are a lot of results for "selective enforcement in the UK" is any indication for anything else than "There are selective enforcement in the UK". Which ultimately proves nothing and most certainly do not disprove my claim.

Re:But of course

[drinkypoo]

So you go with the assumption that a selective enforcement gets the same internet-related coverage than a regular enforcement

No, I go with the assumption that any place it's talked about a lot, it's a problem, because media usually underreports such issues because statistically nobody really gives a fuck.

Re:But of course

[Xphile101361]

You always have meaningful choices. You always have the option of not exercising them.

Re:But of course

[Kleen13]

I wonder how Canada will fare when that age comes.

Re:But of course

[internerdj]

I could have voted for the guy who supported it or the guy who probably would support it or the other two that probably would support it. Then any of them would get in the office and vote with whoever helped them get in office the most.

Re:But of course

[gweihir]

Indeed. Although the Germans are special in that they started two, not one, world wars. Took them a bit longer to find out it was not a good idea. The US is still timidly inching in that direction with undeclared wars, pseudo wars ("war on xyz", where xyz = something the US does not like), clandestine attacks on world-wide critical infrastructure and the like.

I think what the rest of the world is now realizing is that the US is not above actually sabotaging critical infrastructure (Internet security) to further their goals. Quite possible the latest NSA revelations will have pretty serious consequences for any US-based software and network equipment maker. Might take a few years to show, though.

Re:But of course

[gweihir]

Indeed. Economic stability with advances in science and technology can work quite well. Expansion is only the cave-man's option.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course selective enforcement is a problem nearly everywhere. But those police forces actually have a code to respect and are held against it.

Meanwhile, nobody expects the US to do anything more or less than enforce it's foreign policy interests (nobody except a certain percentage of Americans who easier to manipulate with moral propaganda). Merely the idea that US does selective enforcement is laughable. There's nothing to enforce because there's no international code to deal with dictators and tyrants, nations are sovereign and except genocide or military aggression there is no internationally agreed doctrine to act on.

Re: But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

We germans tried to bring order to eurasia and the rest of the world in the last century. The world didn't like it.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Economic prosperity depends on expansion. Remember the formula for area of a circle? The problem with expansion policy is that growth is constant (the radius) but the cost of that growth (area) is exponential.

No, it's quadratic growth. Really, if you're going to try and shoe-horn a maths analogy into a political discussion, at least use the right one.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep hoping. My guess is it won't happen in your lifetime.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends indeed, yeh, looks like it's negative correlation.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

This is absolutely trolling, and nothing but posturing to piss the US off publicly.

There are plenty of other sites the Germans know about there, that are far more important than the embassy.

Re:But of course

[Omestes]

It could be genuine. I had a friend, with a masters in PoliSci, who adhered to this position, as did her professors (at Georgetown). I also had a couple of friends who went through the Iraq wringer (Army) who left the service with this point of view. It must be somewhat common, since we do manage to start unprovoked wars all over the place without any political fallout to those who started them...

Re:But of course

[micahraleigh]

In Europe the police enforce "law and order" by making sure people use the word "courielle" instead of "email".

Also, you have to name your kids something from the national registry.

Its part of the reason why rioters set things on fire as rarely as once every couple years in Paris.

Re:But of course

[1s44c]

It's already happening my friend. It is a slow process though.

Re:But of course

[mdielmann]

Indeed. Although the Germans are special in that they started two, not one, world wars. Took them a bit longer to find out it was not a good idea.

I think that's just typical German engineering mentality. It's kind of like designing a new bridge. You think it will work, you try it out, and it collapses. Now, was the design bad, or was it the workmanship? Let's try it again and see if this one stays up!

Re: But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

:-) Right on. I believe the Germans would have brought more lasting widespread peace than the Americans have. You wouldn't have all this riffraff moving into Europe out of Africa and middle east. They are the troublemakers now, and this would not be happening under the Reich. You gotta put the hammer down on people to beat some sense into them. It really is the only way. If the Russians weren't so weak in Afghanistan, it would have been a truly prosperous country today, at least as good as it was in the 60s. It was the American introduction of radical religious fanatics that turned it into the shithole it is now, which gave you your 9/11, and has the NSA,and CIA all trippin' over their dicks, runnin' around like the Keystone Cops. Nope, we need a dictator really bad, one with the guts to use a real iron fist to bring peace, safety, and security, no matter what it takes. But he's gotta look good on camera. You can't have some fat, bald headed motherfucker up there. What would the space aliens think? We have to show some sense of aesthetics, or they'll just zap the planet. And I can't say that I'd blame them.

Re:But of course

[Pieroxy]

In Europe the police enforce "law and order" by making sure people use the word "courielle" instead of "email".

Not in France, no.

Also, you have to name your kids something from the national registry.

Not in France, no, not true.

Its part of the reason why rioters set things on fire as rarely as once every couple years in Paris.

Well, there are riots in Paris, but they are completely unrelated to your two points above, both of which are just lies.

Nice troll though.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

Please! Can the faggot bullshit about 'morality'. The plain fact is that Europe is at peace because of the US. If they were to close the bases, the whole continent would explode the next morning. Face the truth! They do what they want because they have the power. And I say more power to 'em! You don't know the meaning of the word 'asshole'. We won't have peace until they show real muscle, the cameras and the press be damned. Time to put the hammer down, hard! Just like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and look how soft and pliable Japan became for it. A truly great empire thoroughly subdued. It is the success story of the previous millennium. But they will stay that way only as long as the US maintains its occupational force. They can do the same in the Middle East if they only had the guts to suppress all the negativity, and just do it, no discussion.

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

oblig.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

By retired United States Marine Corps Major General and two time Medal of Honor recipient Smedley D. Butler.

Absolutely required reading for anyone wishing to comment on the use and purpose of USA foreign involvement.

Re:But of course

[CHIT2ME]

Exactly! Just look at the Syria problem. Why are so many politicians against punitive strikes against Assad? It's easy, Syria has no oil!!! Who cares about 1300 or 1400 people including some 400 plus children being gassed to death by Assad? There's just no oil there!

Re:But of course

[R2D5]

Pax Americana (68 years = 1945 to 2013) is just getting started compared with other empires which did last longer ... Pax Romana of the Roman Empire (207 years = 27 BC to 180 AD), the Pax Britannica of the British Empire (99 years = 1815–1914) and the Pax Mongolica of the Mongol Empire (88 years = 1206 - 1294).

Re:But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

The man was a communist. People on the losing side are always going to complain. Look at how the republicans are acting today, just like the democrats during Bush...

Re: But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

I was stationed in the Fulda Gap back at the end of the 60's. That is where the Soviet tanks would come through. Technically, I trained people to shoot down MIGS. So there were MIGS flying through the NSA attenna farm every so often but we never got to shoot them. But if the balloon went up we could expect to live 30 seconds. The reason we were there was to die so that you would support WWIii. Well, also so the Soviets could think we would immeadiately go nuclear with the nuclear mines buried in the Gap. That is not quite WWIII. NATO did hope to stop the Soviets at the Rhine and at that point we could hope for a opportunity for both sides to talk a bit before nuclear spasm.

Nothing I said above supports your take on the present situation IMO.

I am sad that you wrote what you did.

Re: But of course

[Anonymous Coward]

You work to support the empire. I wouldn't expect a grunt to understand that though. If you knew why you were doing what you were doing, you wouldn't have done it... unless you like the empire you fight for. But I don't blame you. Obviously one is expected to fight for the home team. Just remember the Soviet soldier is every bit as honorable in his position. But empire is empire, and there is no honor in supporting it at all. Fuck the military. Fuck the cops.

Of course it's a PR stunt

[mechtech256]

Germany has a very advanced military, it could certainly get photos of the roof of a building more covertly than sending out a helicopter and making a public statement.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[DasBub]

Not even military. Germany has foreign and domestic intelligence agencies - the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) and the Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz (BfV), respectively. They don't need the po-po's helicopter to check for antennae. They already know or can reasonably guess what intercept equipment is on-site at the consulate (and other sites).

If this stunt's goals were any more transparent, birds would be smashing into them with the frequency of that Hot Butter song.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[AHuxley]

Every gov knows what Russia, the UK and US do with their "Consulate" floors or just put a T2FD outside.
http://cryptome.org/eyeball/rubig/rubig-eyeball.htm
60 metres to photograph the site sounds a strange cover story? What could a normal sized helicopter carry in Germany at this point in time wrt quality sigint collecting?
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_Support_Activity made in Germany? Why the low distance?

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think there's anything wrong with this. Its far nicer then sending in armed forced to march everyone out of the country and destroy all the property in the building for "security reasons". Which is about probably how non-us government officials feel about our "embassies etc..." at this point in time.

I'm sure their not like ... oh yay, so glad to have the goonstore open in our neighboorhood.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Or rather what every country has done with their consulates and embassies since the concepts were first created. The division between diplomacy and espionage has always been a polite fiction rather than a practical reality.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Electricity Likes Me]

You realize every country in the world uses its embassies as the central headquarters for their intelligence apparatus in that country. So you know that row of embassies in Washington? Every single one of them does the exact same things or tries to. They're just not as good at it.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

If by "headquarters" you use that term very loosely. Anybody spying in-country probably shouldn't be going anywhere near the embassy, because people going in and out are tracked.

U.S., Russian, and Chinese intelligence officers are often stationed out of their embassies, but they also usually have gigantic embassies and enormous intelligence operations which have a chain of command in-country.

If you're a country like Israel, then you keep your spies and their handlers well away from the embassy.

(Of course, I'm making all of this up, because IANAS. But it makes much more sense to me. Although I met a retired spy once, and AFAIK when he was in-country he never stopped by the embassy. If you're going to do some spying, you enter, do your task, and leave. That includes installing equipment, such as cameras which track tail numbers at airports.)

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[cold fjord]

Every gov knows what Russia, the UK and US do with their "Consulate" floors

Oh come now A., the club is bigger than that! The majority of countries get in on the spy game at some level.
The Germans: The German Prism: Berlin Wants to Spy
Very involved in the current crisis: Assad did not order Syria chemical weapons attack, says German press
The Finns and Swedes can't be left out: Supo wants expanded net surveillance powers
Nor the French: France 'runs vast electronic spying operation using NSA-style methods'
The club is bigger still: Think US snooping is bad? Try Italy, India orCanada
Thousands of Russian spies in US: ex-CIA agent
Gordievsky: Russia has as many spies in Britain now as the USSR ever did
Chinese Spies Targeting U.K., MI5 Warns
But of course! Chinese use honeytraps to spy on French companies, intelligence report claims
Germany accuses China of industrial espionage
Germany targets Russian, Chinese spies
Spies in Sweden mostly from China, Russia, Iran
Number of Foreign Spies on the Rise in Finland
Austrian capital ‘filled with Iranian spies’
Foreign spies targeting Polish shale - Natural Gas Europe
Spain arrests three suspected of spying for Iran
Russia warns Ireland it will retaliate in spy row
FBI releases papers on Russian Irish spies in US - ‘Ghost Stories’

Sometimes the trails can get very complicated.

For some reason this video comes to mind: Its a Small World

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the first time I hear about it here in Germany, so I doubt it is a PR stunt.

On the other hand I have heard about an organized photo shooting of a building bought by the US embassy in Vienna (Austria, not Germany) that is allegedly being used by the NSA: article in German with embedded YouTube video

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[AHuxley]

Cold very few countries of the world could have global reach for their international signals intelligence efforts.
So they have their own citizens, dual citizens or trusted people spy for them.
The list for the cash, computing power, skill, geographic location and ongoing data storage was not easy even with cold war budgets.
Why do you think the UK had to trade some of bases to the US for international signals intelligence efforts if they could go it alone?
The list was tiny. Now every small rich nation runs all it can internally and tries the best it can with any signal that their embassies and mil bases can find.
The tech is now cheap, storage is now very cheap but what most are missing is that global telco reach - only the US ever had that.
The rest of the world has to make do with gossip, sales by contractors needing cash, blackmail or ideology, addiction, dual citizens, people of the same faith over generations been trusted by their new country finding their homeland again and totally selling out.
People get caught, spies get caught, swapped, embassy staff are set up ... every year... the spy game is known.... US/UK signals intelligence news is at another level.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[AHuxley]

Fun vid AC
Group talking about keeping the best pic "forever". 1970's building, not listed on the Austrian official 'embassy property' list ie private but ~guarded by the Austrian gov?
Interesting how photography was treated around a ~'private' building - ie from public property by the Austrian gov.
2006 a police presence was noted - antenna, CCTV activity, sat dishes ....
Interesting story about a cold war front group "sting" site near the building for people collecting reading material interested in Soviet PR/science is also mentioned near the end of the clip.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[m.alessandrini]

It's the game theory: when someone does it, the other ones feel they must too, to not be left behind.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[siddesu]

We didn't see much of the building, but someone probably got the names of all people in that video.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Torvac]

"operation roflcopter". fake news, nobody can be that clueless. and the Pofalla dude said weeks ago: "there is no spying, nsa said so. no need to investigate anything."

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[gmanterry]

Germany has a very advanced military, it could certainly get photos of the roof of a building more covertly than sending out a helicopter and making a public statement.

It is time someone made a public statement. No one seems to understand what this NSA spying means. I have yet to see anyone address the most troubling aspect of the NSA spying. The present, in power President has now got 100% access to all information about the opposition party. He can read their mail, listen in on all calls he has access to all confidential data from reporters, judges, congressmen and senators. How can his party lose? The only information the party in power does not have is mouth to ear communication and snail mail. This is equivelant to high tech WaterGate times 1000. At the close of the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin said "You have a Republic, if you can keep it". I'm sorry to say this but "We had a Republic, but it appears that we have indeed lost it". The U. S. government can not function when one political party has all the phones tapped and reads everyone's email. That is why we used to have a fourth amendment.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Big Hairy Ian]

Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, everyone does it, even thought it's explicitly forbidden by the Vienna Convention. That's why the rule is that you don't get caught, at which the US now spectacularly failed.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[aaaaaaargh!]

Based of my knowledge from spy novels I'd say there are two sorts of spies: officials and illegals. The mostly former operate from the embassy and spend most of the day with trying to get rid of their pursuers. If they fuck something up, they go home as a persona non grata. The latter are under deep cover, should never meet the former, and their existence will be denied by every embassy. They use stuff like code books, dead drops and run-off-the-mill short wave receivers to listen to number stations. If they get caught, they face life long prison or execution.

If a spy doesn't want to take too much risk, he can always abort mission and send the bluprints of a vacuum cleaner back to headquarters instead. Nobody will figure out what it means.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

It's legally US territory as long as the germans allow it to be. And even while it is, embassies generally try to behave. Also, spying from the embassy is pretty much forbidden. If diplomats are caught spying they are generally told to get the fuck out.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Read the Vienna Convention if you are seriously interested in it. Espionage from the embassy building is explicitly forbidden. And the belief that the embassy is US territory is very much wrong. All that the Vienna Convention says is that the embassy and all the property belonging to it are immune to search or seizure, and that agents of the host country may not enter without consent of the embassy staff, that's it.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[paulatz]

the right for the USA to have a consulate in Berlin comes fro ma bi-later agreement that can be retracted at any time. It is not a God-given right.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[gnasher719]

Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.

They can't. According to German law, any act happens in the country where it takes effect. Putting up an antenna that illegally monitors radio traffic on German territory takes effect on German territory and therefore is a crime that would be prosecuted in Germany. In other words, the people responsible better not leave their consulate without diplomatic immunity.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[fox171171]

If a spy doesn't want to take too much risk, he can always abort mission and send the bluprints of a vacuum cleaner back to headquarters instead. Nobody will figure out what it means.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's vacuum cleaner blueprints?

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

No it isn't extraterritoriality is a myth. However, diplomatic missions enjoy inviolability

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Big Hairy Ian]

Don't think you can apply that to radio waves. For starters technically the point that the electromagnetic photons (Radio Waves) are being intercepted is on consulate ground and therefore US territory. Some may argue that the same photon is also on German territory due to that nature of photons, however, taking this argument it could also be argued that the same photon is on Swiss, Polish & French territory at the same time.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[1s44c]

Yep and also the Consulate is legally US territory anyway so they can put what the hell they like on the roof.

But is the air space? I mean if a private jet happened to fly over a city would it need permission from every embassy it flew over? I don't think that's even clear in anyone's law.

Obviously flying 60 meters over a US building is a political stunt anyway. If they want high resolution photos they can take them from the ground and from higher up.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Your comment is spot on, and what's better: it's still valid when you substitute "the present President" with "the Republicrat/Demopublican president" and "the opposition party" with "the Green party, libertarian party, any threatening budding opposition to be squashed before it gets in the electorate's view"

Re: Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

An US embassy is NOT US territory.

It's still German territory. You have no clue.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but this is exactly how this law is applied. Check the subpoenas for torrenting in Germany. They can file suit in *any* court in Germany, due to the fact that you have been "offering" the file for download everywhere in Germany.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[__aaltlg1547]

You realize every country in the world uses its embassies as the central headquarters for their intelligence apparatus in that country. So you know that row of embassies in Washington? Every single one of them does the exact same things or tries to. hey're just not as good at it.

Or they're better at it. Nobody's talking about Germany's spy agency and what they do.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

The present, in power President has now got 100% access to all information about the opposition party. He can read their mail, listen in on all calls he has access to all confidential data from reporters, judges, congressmen and senators. How can his party lose?

While I agree this is a threat to the liberty of our nation, your argument has a serious flaw: this started under a republican president and they lost.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[gweihir]

Well, yes. But Pofalla is a dishonest idiot, so if he ordered it, the whole thing might just be not only a stunt, but also completely ineffectual as he has no clue how to do this right. It may also have been a stunt to send a message in some secret negotiations, as a helicopter in 60m distance is very hard to overlook.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[tlhIngan]

Wrong. Read the Vienna Convention if you are seriously interested in it. Espionage from the embassy building is explicitly forbidden. And the belief that the embassy is US territory is very much wrong. All that the Vienna Convention says is that the embassy and all the property belonging to it are immune to search or seizure, and that agents of the host country may not enter without consent of the embassy staff, that's it.

You assume the US doesn't have any special rights because they are, "The United States of America".

If there's any country guilty of violating more treaties (especially when it benefits them), it's generally been the US. It doesn't matter what - if the US can get an advantage by ignoring the treaty, it will, repeatedly. The other country can (and often does) cry foul, but rarely does anything get done about it.

Something about "might makes right".

Vienna treaty or no, if the US feels they want to put up an antenna, they'll just put up an antenna. Germany can protest all it wants, but by the time it rolls around to some body to do something about it, it'll be years down the road.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[X0563511]

You're not even interfering with the photon, your antenna just happens to resonate with it as it passes by.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Trogre]

But... but that Simpsons episode!

"Australia! (hop) America! (hop) Australia! (hop) America!"

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[z0idberg]

Wrong. Read the Vienna Convention if you are seriously interested in it. Espionage from the embassy building is explicitly forbidden. And the belief that the embassy is US territory is very much wrong. All that the Vienna Convention says is that the embassy and all the property belonging to it are immune to search or seizure, and that agents of the host country may not enter without consent of the embassy staff, that's it.

So just like the 4th amendment then? Strange how the Germans would think the US government would just ignore that then.

Re:Of course it's a PR stunt

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually you can apply the law to radio waves and the law doesn't look keenly on people who try to work around the law on technicalities.

TFA tells us of the real mission:

[ColdWetDog]

They broke some China.

Spying indeed. They were just trying to help.

Re:TFA tells us of the real mission:

[Anonymous Coward]

They were protecting the US Embassy from a threatened terrorist attack.

If it was...

[betterprimate]

... just a PR stunt or an investigation of espionage, might I suggest dropping 60" frankfurters on Frankfurt? Either way it's a win!

Ich bin hungrig. :(

The Art of Diplomacy

[Nefarious Wheel]

The Art of Diplomacy, it is said,
is saying "nice doggy" whilst you look about
for a large enough stick.

Re:The Art of Diplomacy

[Anonymous Coward]

And German sausages. Never forget German spiced sausages.

Re:The Art of Diplomacy

[dfenstrate]

The Art of Diplomacy, it is said, is saying "nice doggy" whilst you look about for a large enough stick.

The sad thing about the administration's self-described 'Smart Diplomacy' is that we're in a position where German politicians will openly express contempt for the US- an ally- for some (German) election season points.

This is a consequence of two things:

1) An NSA percieved to be out of control and operating beyond their mandate.

2) A weak president that German politicians see no downside to prodding/angering.

Re:The Art of Diplomacy

[quacking duck]

2) A weak president that German politicians see no downside to prodding/angering.

What exactly would a "strong" US president be doing before this, or do in response to this? Public or behind-the-scene threats against allies who don't fall in line? Start military action against an enemy nation? Tough-guy talk at press briefings?

This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

This is how you treat hostile countries' foreign representations.

If the US won't play the rules then they should be kept under tight surveillance anywhere in the world in order to prevent them acting as an enemy.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want credit both for stopping Germany from becoming a great power, and then for making germany into a great power? Just want to make sure I understand what goes on the "America Fuck Yeah" score board.

but don't pretend Germany isn't where they are today because of US support

Such arrogance, it almost boggles the mind.

The US isn't spying on Germany to undermine their sovereignty or protect them or any such bullshit, they're spying on Germany because Germany is a powerful nation with a lot of industry that's fighting for some of the same contracts that US companies. It's industrial espionage plain and simple. How the fuck to you think the whole NSA spying apparatus is financed? Through taxes alone?!

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

That someone has done good in the past is no excuse for wrongdoing now. If you learned that someone who once saved your life now started to rob banks, would you say "well, he saved my life, so I have to support his actions now"? Or would you not rather try to convince him that he should stop robbing banks?

Re:This is how

[gagol]

US used his intelligence network to help corporations win bids on big projects, against allies. Intel is more about industrial espionage then "security".

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

True, but you might not turn him in right away....

Re:This is how

[allcoolnameswheretak]

Well, the U.S. did actually invoke the Marshall plan and helped rebuild Germany, rebuffing France that wanted to scrap Germany's industry and keep it weak forever (can't really blame them though).

No question about it that Germany's Wirtschaftswunder and current standing is in no small part thanks to the industriousness and discipline which are pillars of German culture. But without the U.S. standing in and paving the way, outlook would have been rather bleak.

Disclaimer: I live and grew up in Germany, but I am not a German.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

Not quite.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

No question about it that Germany's Wirtschaftswunder and current standing is in no small part thanks to the industriousness and discipline which are pillars of German culture. But without the U.S. standing in and paving the way, outlook would have been rather bleak.

And those of us who are at least a slight bit interested in history are very grateful for that. But the good deeds of the past only go so far to cover for all the crap that we see today, and at some point we have to stand up and say that enough is enough (both to our own goverment and to foreign states), the same way that the US citizens should tell their goverment to stop destroying civil liberties

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

World war 2 veterans are now 90 years old. My gratitude to them doesn't extend to their grandchildren.

Re:This is how

[allcoolnameswheretak]

I'm not just referring to the economic aid in purely monetary terms. I'm referring to the shift in thinking from "we have to keep Germany down" to "we have to build Germany up", which in a large part was thanks to U.S. influence and pressure on the other Allies.

This was not an act of selfless compassion of course, as the U.S. was interested in a bastion against communism, but that does not diminish the argument.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think Snowden was a German agent.

Re:This is how

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: I live and grew up in Germany, but I am not a German.

Most Americans seem to be unaware of the intensity of West Germany's internal problems; the seriousness of the civil unrest and violent demonstrations occurring in the early 1970's.

If you don't mind me asking, were you old enough to have been there when it was happening? If so, were the social implications being exaggerated; was West Germany on the verge of collapse?

Re:This is how

[Dahamma]

I didn't remotely say that Germans have not worked extremely hard to put their country at the top of the economic heap, I just said Germany wouldn't be where they are today without US support. If you really think Germany would be the same today if the US had just let the USSR control the whole country (or even all of Berlin) you are delusional. Go ask any former East Germans if they would have preferred that outcome...

The real troll here was the post claiming the USA and Germany are "hostile countries." That's just stupid hyperbole. The US and Germany are allies and the financial backbone of NATO, the largest military alliance in history. And still they spy on each other, as all allies have done, big deal.

How the fuck to you think the whole NSA spying apparatus is financed?

And once you bring in inane conspiracy theories what's the point. Actually, if you want to know how the NSA is financed just go look it up, it's part of the latest NSA leaks...

Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Those who recall 1960s history know I am riffing on the famous speech given by John F. Kennedy in which he said "Ich bin ein Berliner" ( I am a Berliner ).

US foreign policy has never been worse than now, and idiots like Obama, Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and of course the fuckwits in the Pentagon who are always hungry to get another war started are all to blame.

As an American, I have recently begun to feel the sort of despair which I surmise may have led people in the former USSR to consume prodigious amounts of alcohol.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be great if those quoting Kennedy actually know what he said, because taking just that part out of context gives the completely wrong impression.
I wonder how many of the people there during this speech didn't really understand a word of English...

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[allcoolnameswheretak]

US foreign policy has never been worse than now

You have to be joking.

The U.S. and every other country in the world spies using all means at its disposal. The Internet was invented in the U.S. Sorry, but whoever is surprised and shocked at the current revelations is clueless. That is one thing.

The other thing is Vietnam war, Iraq war... if you think U.S. foreign policy is worse now than during Nixon or Bush, you are double clueless beyond hope of recovery.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[XcepticZP]

YOU have got to be joking. Have you not been paying attention to Iraq, Afghanistan, Balkans, Gitmo and Syria?! Or countless other minor skirmishes that the US has been involved in. You can cry "joking" all you want, but the joke is on you and your war-mongering statist apologetics.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[drinkypoo]

The other thing is Vietnam war, Iraq war... if you think U.S. foreign policy is worse now than during Nixon or Bush, you are double clueless beyond hope of recovery.

You know, they have this thing called "the news" where you can find out that our president is pushing for an illegal war with Syria. The truth is that nothing has changed, except that we are continuing to edge towards utter fascism.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[gweihir]

I think the two things that make the US look very, very bad is a) the NSA building and running Bot-Nets and b) the NSA weakening encryption standards and security software and devices. This is a direct attack on world-wide critical infrastructure (something usually done only by terrorists) and basically an act of war against the whole world. The rest of the world is currently trying very hard to overlook these things, but they cannot do so forever.

While there will be a ramping-up period, Europe certainly can build CPUs, devices and Software without US help. That would actually be pretty bad for US economics and may be the one thing that eventually leads to the NSA being reigned in.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[Anonymous Coward]

> You know, they have this thing called "the news" where you can find out that our president is pushing for an illegal war with Syria. The
> truth is that nothing has changed, except that we are continuing to edge towards utter fascism.

I have noticed that you did not post anonymously & suspect that you have no fear of the gestapo pulling you out of your bed tonight.

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[HiThere]

Things are a bit different than you realize. Now the news is centrally owned. If a story appears that is politically undesirable, ALL the major news media downplay it. During the VietNam era, citizen protests were heard. Now...well, they aren't suppressed physically any more harshly, but just about nobody hears about them...which makes them rather pointless. During the VietNam era a comedian could stage a mock campaign for president on TV. Today, that's just not feasible. ETC.

When news is managed, you don't really need to manage actions tightly. And when you do, you can suppress people hearing about it. If the local police abuse their power and use tasers to torture someone, and then shoot him to death, you hear about it locally. Not nationally...unless it makes a point that the powers that be wish to be made. During the 1960's-70's an equivalent, or even a less brutal act, would be likely to be heard nation-wide. (Think Medgar Evers.)

No direct comparison is possible, and this doesn't speak directly to foreign policy anyway, but the news is much more managed now than then. (And a part of the reason for doing away with the draft is so that there would be less objection by citizens who were wealthy enough to manage to be heard.)

Re:Obama ist kein Berliner ...

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be great if those quoting Kennedy actually know what he said, because taking just that part out of context gives the completely wrong impression. I wonder how many of the people there during this speech didn't really understand a word of English...

People mistakenly interpreted it as some sort of grand idealism. It was just a comment about the goodness of the German bakeries and their tasty sweet rolls.

This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

Here it is :

The US went too far with its abusive stance toward the rest of the world,
which finally decided it had had enough.

Europe, Russia, and China formed an alliance and brought the US to its
knees without a shot being fired. Economic pressure alone did the trick.

You know, I think this actually is already in progress, it's just that the swine
who control the US military-industrial complex have such extreme hubris
that they won't see what's coming until it runs them over.

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish your vision come true.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[Seumas]

Right, because they're so innocent and have no ulterior motives. It's not like Germany totally fucked over Greece while pretending to be its salvation the last few years, right?

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

The damage had to be contained.

The US banks and credit rating agencies organized the mess in Greece over a long term, we are talking years. It was a trap for Central European banks.

Germany and others had to reduce the impact to their banks. Otherwise the whole Europe would have been in a mess.

The Greece operation failed. Euro is still sytrong and a threat to the Dollar.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[lxs]

They fucked Greece over by loaning them 100.000.000.000 euro that everybody knows will never be repaid? Greece has been fucked over by the Greeks. If they have a problem with the terms and conditions of the rescue package then they are free to refuse the money.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

Not salvation, but why would Greece go along with it if Germany (and it's really the EU in many ways) wasn't offering a better alternative than e.g. bankrupcy?
There's been discussion whether there should be more actual help instead of just emergency rescue, but giving away money voluntarily can be a hard thing to do.
And the good number of Greeks who for quite some time have behaved like spoilt brats (going on strike when it can only make things worse, vilifying those they actually get money from, not accepting any own fault for the situation they are in now, Merkel as Hitler drawings, burning flags...) makes it really, really hard for anyone to actually help more than they feel is absolutely necessary. And btw. it is perfectly possible to feel sorry for someone yet still say "no".
And I guess I hereby fullfill the stereotype of being an arrogant ass (though I am not living in Germany currently). And probably I am not telling you anything new, but I felt compelled to try to say that things aren't quite that simple as your anger makes you feel.

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Don't worry though, if you wait 30-40 years you'll find enough trouble coming your way anyway.

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats correct the dollar will collapse if and only if American dominance is because of oil!

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

^^^^ "PetroDollar" ^^^^

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[allcoolnameswheretak]

Greeks are the only one to blame for Greece's problems. If you have every third guy working a public office, earning 14 salaries a year comparable to what a German academic earns and finance all of that piling up debt... you deserve to fall flat on your face.

But that didn't happen because German taxpayers are now vouching for hundreds of billions of Greek debt.
So please, shut the hell up.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[Alioth]

Actually, Greece has been fucked over by the Greek government and the complicity of Wall Street. When joining the euro, Wall Street (Goldman Sachs, mainly) actively helped the government conceal the level of debt (which would disqualify them from being in the euro). The eurozone didn't do their full due diligence due to the breathless headlong rush to get the Euro under way, making it ridiculously easy for the Greeks to hide their debt problem.

And now it has come back to bite the eurozone (and the Greeks much harder) on the ass.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[jedidiah]

Yes they did. Sure, Greece shares some blame but their creditors went into this with their eyes open. They are like any other predatory lender that led to the financial collapse. They were so busy counting thei rprofits that they forgot to do any due dilligence. They just assumed that they mess they were creating would be cleaned up by someone else.

It's just like the US mortgage debacle but on a grander scale.

When a banker acts like a crack dealer, the banker shares the blame for the end result.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[Anonymous Coward]

Germany lent all that money to Greece for the last decade so that the Greeks could buy German exports to prop up their aging, declining, xenophobic population. They baled them out for the exact same reason. Well, that and their silly visions of European unity that go out the window the further East you go.

Re: This article caused me to have a vision :

[UriGagarin]

Black September ?

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[gweihir]

It definitely is in progress. The Euro is basically a tool to break the market dominance of the Dollar. Irak was quite likely invaded because Saddam started to trade oil in Euro, not Dollars anymore. And there is absolutely nothing the rest of the world is dependent on the US for, but that is not true the other way round.

Re:This article caused me to have a vision :

[DarthVain]

Actually Greece has been fucked over by the Greek people not paying taxes and expecting government to provide them with services. Greece ironically is a democracy so far as I know, and people voted these governments in place.

When the one government tried to tow a hard line saying, "hey we are broke now we better start cutting back on things" there were mass riots by people.

The only thing Wall Street did was make holding MASSIVE debt and then trying to get even more MASSIVE loans more difficult. Also in Porrifying (I just made that word up) the rest of the developed world it made it hard on tourism all around the world, and when 90% of your economic GDP is tourism...

They have no one to blame but the person looking back at them in the mirror.

Gamesmanship

[wrackspurt]

Gamesmanship is the use of dubious (although not technically illegal) methods to win or gain a serious advantage in a game or sport. It has been described as "Pushing the rules to the limit without getting caught, using whatever dubious methods possible to achieve the desired end" (Lumpkin, Stoll and Beller, 1994:92). It may be inferred that the term derives from the idea of playing for the game (i.e., to win at any cost) as opposed to sportsmanship, which derives from the idea of playing for sport. The term originates from Stephen Potter's humorous 1947 book, The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship (or the Art of Winning Games without Actually Cheating).

This smacks of cold war gamesmanship. I've known a few spooks and what they had in common was a deep seated sense of gamesmanship.

Re:Gamesmanship

[Anonymous Coward]

At least they didn't bomb it and say "we are sorry, we were working with outdated maps" like Clinton. And yes, we spy on them it is all in the game, they spy (gasp! with a low flying helicopter all could see) that is cold war thing, typical Assholism.

Re:Gamesmanship

[gweihir]

Well, I saw the damage on-site. There is no way this was an accident, and the maps cannot have been that badly outdated.

Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[Anonymous Coward]

The real purpose of the NSA's activities are becoming all to clear.

Oh, and that helicopter, was trawling an EMS (ElectroMagnetic Signals) antenna as well as a P-Band InSAR (Interferometric Synthetic Aperture Radar) antenna.

Just from that I'd say that GFZ and DLR personnel are closely involved.

Call the helicopter a "suborbital" remote measuring platform.

While everyone's attention was diverted to the helicopter, little noticed were the former Stasi types whipping down the door knobs and doing some thermal imaging of the steeps leading to the front and back doors!

Ha ha! I'd say, Gotcha!

Re:Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[bickerdyke]

Oh, and that helicopter, was trawling an EMS (ElectroMagnetic Signals) antenna as well as a P-Band InSAR (Interferometric Synthetic Aperture Radar) antenna.

And that helps find antennas LISTENING to something instead of broadcasting something?

Re:Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[Anonymous Coward]

Could the "radio shadow" of the listening antennas reveal that they listen, and what they listen to?

Re:Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[Alioth]

The local oscillators of radio receivers can be detected, and what they give off can infer which frequency band is being listened to.

Re:Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[gweihir]

Well, yes. If carefully designed to do so. Antennas resonate. Still, this was a clearly as stunt, likely to send a message of the form "it is _our_ country, not yours".

Re:Blackmail, Deceit, Extortion and Money Honey

[gweihir]

Not if carefully shielded.

U.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Under Surveillance

What's a spy antanna look like?

[HockeyPuck]

How is one meant for spying different from any other type of antenna?

I realize there are different antennas for different frequency...

Unless of course there are ones that are only made for those frequencies used for espionage and not anything else... "Is this optimally made for listening to encrypted transmissions and not broadcast radio or TV signals?"

Hopefully, Fry's has them on sale in the espionage section.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[DasBub]

I'd ask the German federal police about this. After all, counter-intelligence against foreign state agencies is their bread and butter... (/snark)

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[OhANameWhatName]

Fry's doesn't stock them.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[AHuxley]

http://www.angelfire.com/rebellion2/sw_underground1/embassy.html some pics.
Try a google image search for embassy antennas for the more public pics over many years.
The more interesting work was done inside taking up a lot of space.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[Anonymous Coward]

A spy antenna looks like anything but an antenna. Its a brick wall. Its a tree. Its a picture frame. Its a bike rack. Its not anything that you would see. Antennas are generally designed around the frequencies they are intended to capture. Long, medium and shortwave antennas are large. VHF and UHF antennas are smaller. Higher frequencies are less prone to refraction on the ionisphere, and less prone to scattering. Antennas must be made of metal, and usually must have a characteristic shape, but they can usually be disguised as other things.... brick walls, trees, picture frames, bike racks... Oh, and instead of listening to 'external' communications, its so much better to tap into internal communications.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they were trying to prove that the U.S. embassy has TV receivers, because the U.S. embassy didn't pay their TV fee.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is one meant for spying different from any other type of antenna?

As you suggested, frequency coverage: a spy antenna might be designed to search for signals at a range of frequencies, whereas most antennas are optimised for a narrower range which contains the commercial signals for which they're intended. Also, directionality: antennas are designed to be easy to use, so they'll pick up signals from any direction, but a spy antenna might be optimised for sensitivity in a specific direction (with the idea that you physically move it around until you find the direction of the signal you're after). That's off the top of my head - I'm sure there are other possible differences.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[Anonymous Coward]

the one's for spying would be antennas in disguise, obviously. So you would be looking for something that does not look like an antenna from the outset but more e.g. like a palm tree. Had they found a palm tree on the roof top of the US embassy, well that would be a clear sign, would it not.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[SuricouRaven]

The spy antennas are the ones hidden inside spherical covers to 'protect them from the weather,' with the incidental effect of making it impossible to observe what type of antenna it is or where it points.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[SuricouRaven]

That, or it's a mobile phone base station. They are sometimes disguised as trees or signs in order to avoid scaring suggestible locals who worry the radiation will give them cancer.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[MiniMike]

It's made out of the black Pringles can, not the red.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[chihowa]

Most if those don't look like they'd be used (or useful) for spying. They look like they're for communicating with the host country directly (not through local infrastructure). Most of them are satcom dishes and HF antennae for long distance communication.

Re:What's a spy antanna look like?

[HiThere]

That brick wall is questionable. Antennas need to be conductive. You could, however, probably hide an antenna *within* a brick wall.

But what's really the truth?

[OhANameWhatName]

reportedly to search for spy antennae and other espionage related equipment on the building rooftops

That's what they *say* but the helicopter was really trying to draw fire.

We trust the American people...

[jamesh]

We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.

Re:We trust the American people...

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realise that the American govt is full of American people right?

Re:We trust the American people...

[cusco]

I live in the US, and can tell you in all honesty your trust is sadly misplaced.

Re:We trust the American people...

[Jesus_666]

Well, most people everywhere are stupid. It's just that most governments are too inept to do real damage while the US government is inept and capable of doing real damage. That's a scary mix.

Re:We trust the American people...

[bickerdyke]

I'd even go further and say that I even fully trust the US gouvernment to have only the best intentions.

But we all know what the road to hell is paved with.

Re:We trust the American people...

[Anonymous Coward]

We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.

Not just the government, but the ruling elite. It really doesn't matter whether it's Democrats or the Republicans. They are all in the pocket of the US Military-Industrial Complex (Yes, I know I went all 70's lefty there, but I'm actually afraid that they were right about who was in power...)

Re:We trust the American people...

[XcepticZP]

It's more than capable... It has already done real damage. A lot of it.

Re:We trust the American people...

[jamesh]

You do realise that the American govt is full of American people right?

Sorry. My mistake. I do trust the American government now that I know it's full of American people.

Re:We trust the American people...

[drinkypoo]

We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.

Well, it's staggeringly stupid to trust the American people. We're the ones responsible for the American government.

Re:We trust the American people...

[quacking duck]

We trust the American people... it's just your damn government we have a problem with.

Well, it's staggeringly stupid to trust the American people. We're the ones responsible for the American government.

Not to mention what TV shows Hollywood keeps making and renewing.

Re:We trust the American people...

[Anonymous Coward]

American is a subset of human. Clearly politicians cannot be American.

Re:We trust the American people...

[houghi]

OMG. We must warn them. It is people. It is people. The government is full of people.

It was a mistake, sorry

[TCM]

In the name of all Germans I want to apologize for this. It was a huge mistake...

...because the helicopter was missing the "YES WE CAN" banner!

Sorry.

Re:It was a mistake, sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

While you're at it, apologize for Lennart Poettering. The idiot responsible for the atrocities known as Pulse Audio and Systemd.

In Response

[Greyfox]

The staff of the Consulate should construct giant satellite dishes out of tin foil and hang them out of every window in the place.

Not American friendly

[Anonymous Coward]

So if we don't want to be spied on we are not American friendly? Thats some attitude ...

Re:Not American friendly

[KingMotley]

I agree. As an American citizen I demand that that the US take their helicopters and fly from house to house 60' from every bedroom window in Germany to ensure there isn't any spying equipment trying to spy on our consulate. In the name of transparency, all video should be streamed live on the internet. Fair is fair.

Re:Not American friendly

[cps42]

Oy. I'm American too, and I know 60m != 60'. 197' isn't much better, but really. C'mon.

Re:Not American friendly

[KingMotley]

Just being more thorough.

Re:Not American friendly

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can spy on all of Germany from the consulate, without flying US helicopters over sovereign German soil, then you're probably allowed within international treaties to do so. And that is exactly what the Germans are worried about. I bet the German helicopter stayed over German soil, and never violated any treaties.

In the end this was probably a stunt with two goals: 1) the upcoming elections in Germany, and 2) give a clear signal to the US that the Germans are not pleased with the NSA (note: the NSA go a lot further with their spying than any German agency).

Re:Not American friendly

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't need helicopters to get those images.
You already have Google Street View.

Kraut resistance is futile

[oldhack]

NSA knew of it even before the chopper took off.

Nothing to see, move along.

[pitchpipe]

They weren't sure if they found anything, so they released the one photo they thought looked the the most suspicious the public to see if they could help find anything.

S.O.P.

[meerling]

I always thought it was standard practice for everyone's embassies to include an entire electronics communications suite usable for both 'secure' communications and 'accidentally' listening in on host nation broadcasts.

Heck, if the Germans didn't know about any visible gear by now, their spy boss is an incompetent buffoon and needs to be shipped back to whatever cave he crawled out of.

Re:S.O.P.

[AHuxley]

The spy bosses hoped to get within bluetooth dongle and wifi range?

Parlament election

[alendit]

Just to give some background: Germany will have parlament elections on Sep 22nd, i.e. in 2 weeks.

Re:Parlament election

[Tom]

This.

It also remains unclear

Uh, no it doesn't. The current ruling coalition is not guaranteed to continue having the majority after the election. We will most likely keep our mother-troll, mostly because she spent the last 10 years wiping out everyone who could challenge her within her own party, but it's unclear if they can rule with their favorite coalition partner or someone else.

Of course this was a publicity stunt. Ponfalla is not in the business of stuff like this unless it is of personal important to the government.

Re:Parlament election

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't like the CDU, but give credit where credit is due: if you didn't have your "mother troll" as chancellor the past years but, say, Silvio Berlusconi, we would already be in WW III...

Re:Parlament election

[Anonymous Coward]

So not being a complete moron is something you already deserve credit for?

Re:Parlament election

[Tom]

You're an idiot. The only reason this country is still standing is because we learnt during the Kohl era (her mentor, btw) how to run a country without a government, because its official attitude is basically that they're not interested in running the country.

The greatest strength of Germany is that it really doesn't matter who's in the drivers seat, because we have long removed the pedals and the steering wheel from there anyways.

If you want to understand Germany, the first thing you need to know about politics is that the central government does not matter one bit. Since Kohl, we've had 4 different parties in 4 different coalitions running the country. You need a microscope to find the changes in the actual politics.

Credit where credit is due: Everywhere but the government. The rest of the country is doing a pretty good job keeping the country running even though we haven't had an actual government for a decade or so.

In contrast USA will send drone to their consulate

[Anonymous Coward]

and turn in to dust. Bye, bye Germans, don't start fights with U.S.A

are marines on the way yet?

[umghhh]

this aggression will not stand, man!

"an helicopter"!?

[johnw]

"an helicopter"? How far can this idiocy of putting "an" in front of any word beginning with h go?

It's "a helicopter".

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he is french and the h is silent. Anyway, English is so inconsitent who can blame anyone. After all, it e.g. is "an honor" and not "a honor".

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[DMiax]

seems like an honest mistake

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

...because 'h' is silent...

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh? It's an 'elicopter, mate!

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Guru80]

Here I am fresh out of mod points. For those that don't know when to use "a .." or "an ..." I'll keep it as simple as I can. It isn't how you spell the word that determines which is used it is how it is pronounced. If it is a vowel sound you use an, if it is a constant sound you use a. For instance "an union" even though it starts with a vowel and "an hour" is correct even though it doesn't. Not nearly has many words that begin with the letter h should be proceeded by "an" as people seem to give it credit for however....."a history", "a hit", "A HELICOPTER", and so on. That's my "an" or "a" rant for the day.

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[mwissel]

Well, I have two excuses for this 'idiocy':

1) English is not my first language
2) I was writing that text in the middle of the night (local time for me)

Same goes for "A government spokesm_E_n[..]". Blame it on my lack of concentration.

So take this as 'an humble' excuse. I didn't want to cause such a stir amongst the 4-digit IDs - like with you and post #44805843. :-)

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't how you spell the word that determines which is used it is how it is pronounced.

Yes, and that's the problem. Determining from the spelling how to correctly pronounce it is a difficult problem, if it is even solvable at all. It may not seem so for a native speaker because, after all, you've usually learned to pronounce the word long before you've learned to spell it. But for a non-native speaker who might only ever have seen the word in writing, it can be a big problem to figure out how to pronounce it. Note that the number of misspellings (especially blatant ones) is much greater for native speakers (for example, no non-native speaker would write "of" instead of "have", an error found quite often on Slashdot).

BTW, it's "consonant", not "constant". Unless you meant a sound that doesn't change.

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[MiniMike]

Well, I have two excuses for this 'idiocy':

1) English is not my first language
2) I was writing that text in the middle of the night (local time for me)

Don't forget:
3) I was distracted by the helicopter circling above.

Johnw should have not been so rude in pointing out your mistake, so that you would remember the lesson and not just his poor attitude.

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Arker]

It's a helicopter if the writer pronounces the haitch. If he says 'an 'elicopter, mate' then he wrote it correctly.

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[johnw]

It's a helicopter if the writer pronounces the haitch

ITYM, "It's a helicopter if the writer pronounces the aitch"

Yes, no problem with that. If you pronounce horse as 'orse then it makes perfect sense to say "an 'orse". Likewise if you use the old-fashioned pronunciation of hotel then it makes perfect sense to say "an hotel". What gets me is the modern fashion for putting "an" before any word which begins with "h". (And indeed, the trick of adding a spurious "h" on the beginning of "aitch".)

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Arker]

" (And indeed, the trick of adding a spurious "h" on the beginning of "aitch".)"

So you are saying the 'h' 'haitch' is silent? ;)

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think his tinnitus was getting the best of him.

Re:"an helicopter"!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is littered with "there dog is over they're" and "criminals should loose they're freedoms" and "both bag's are full" and you guys are ragging on a poor Englishman who says "an 'elicoppter"?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

This is a case

[Vinegar Joe]

When a Stinger missile would come in handy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRTngtsOY8Q

Re:This is a case

[hyades1]

Great move, when you're a guest in another country. Remarks like this remove all doubt about why Americans have to wear Canadian flags when they're traveling.

Of course, they don't act any different, so now they're giving Canadians a bad name, too.

Re:This is a case

[Anonymous Coward]

And Europeans act any better? Get off your high horse. Europeans are about as obnoxious as any American.

Re:This is a case

[Anonymous Coward]

And Europeans act any better? Get off your high horse. Europeans are about as obnoxious as any American.

It's all in the stereotypes. Americans are supposed to be heedless and crass in their assholery, whereas Europeans are supposed to be sneering and supercilious in theirs.

Re:This is a case

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always heard that, and honestly, in 39 countries over the years, some openly hostile to Americans, I've never seen a single American who wouldn't accurately describe where they're from. I have seen plenty of Canadians with Canadian flags though, and they have a mean Canadian nationalist streak to prove it. Want to know how many peacekeeping missions the Canadians have been on? How about how they're the world most beloved country? Pristine rivers of molten chocolate for all the children to play in.

PR stunt unlikely

[gentryx]

It's unlikely that this is a PR stunt of the government to soothe the public. To give you some background information: the election campaigns here in Germany are in full blast now. The opposition used the recent revelations by Snowden to accuse the Merkel administration of breaking the constitution and betraying civil rights and values. The strategy of the coalition was to downplay everything, ensure everyone that the NSA was not pulling a dragnet through everyone's private data, and that there really way nothing to see. Please move along.

Now, this weird helicopter flight does not reflect that secure, self-reliant stance the coalition has presented before. Instead, it reveals that officials have little clue about what foreign intelligence is really doing on German soil. And so they have to rely on embarrassingly obvious means to gather new intel. This is no display of strength, but of weakness.

Re:PR stunt unlikely

[TheCarp]

> Instead, it reveals that officials have little clue about what foreign intelligence is really doing on German soil.

You really think the german government doesn't have drones? You think they couldn't buy a freaking off the shelf hexacopter with a camera and get the same intel? Do you really think they don't already have detailed photographs of that building?

This was a stunt to make a point.

No suprise here ...

[Qbertino]

Ronald Pofalla is know for his - how shall I put it? - errrm, ... lack of subtleness. How the _chancelors_ chief of staff can order a _police_ helicopter to do what's basically a military/state _intel_ job is totally beyond me though.
We have these nutcase scenarios where people seem to break every rule in the book just for the heck of it. At the G8 convention in Heiligendam we had high-tech tactical bombers helping out the police gathering intel on demonstrators. ... It raised a lot less of a stink than I would have hoped for.

My 2 cents.

Looking for rockfs?

[Tim12s]

Hmm... I dont believe they are thinking correctly. I suspect they are looking for rocks. With nanotech they will have to search for sand. Hell - I'd create brick antennas.

It is NOT silent

[mha]

You don't say "elicopter". You DO speak the "h". Silent really, REALLY means "silent".

Re:It is NOT silent

[dkf]

You don't say "elicopter"

You can't consider the word on its own; English's indefinite article simply does not work like that. Do you say "a helicopter" or "an 'elicopter"? Both are actually correct, depending on how you pronounce the construction overall, and that's generally somewhat variable.

Language. What a mess.

Re:It is NOT silent

[Anonymous Coward]

Only someone 'tarded would miss the beginning of the word...

Meet an old friend

[DrYak]

They're just not as good at it.

I might want to introduce you to an old friend called FSB (née KGB).

Yes, I know your currently outraged a the massive surveillance and interception network that the NSA has built itself recently. But you should probably realise that a time when those who took the decision to start this program weren't even born, there where other organisation which were already been doing it routinely.

Big surprise #1: OMG the NSA is massively spying on everyone including it own population at a scaring level.
Big surprise #2: Others have been doing the exact same for ages and are probably similarily good at it by now. (Russia and China are probable good candidates for having NSA-like infrastructures, capabilites, and gathered data)

Re:Meet an old friend

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but we're better than they are, or at least, we want to be, so we shouldn't be spying on ourselves.

This is all a bad joke

[ewanm89]

As already pointed out, The west German government was upto their necks in supporting this during the cold war, they know how it worked and were willing partners. Not to mention, under the UKUSA Securty Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement, Europe and European Russia are under the UK's responsibility to spy on, the least they could have done is fly over the right consulate.

Spies!

[gwstuff]

What? They're spying on us? Shame on them!

The US does it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it Germany can't do it, but you think the USA can?

Stalinist Russia did more.

[Anonymous Coward]

the USSR did more to win the war in europe than the USA.

The USA were paid handsomely for thier aid to the UK. So handsomely in fact that it wasn't until the 1990's that the debt was paid off and THAT only occurred because the US dollar tanked.

Do you thank mercenaries for their help as well as paying their extortionate rates?

No?

Then why demand we do so?

Re:Stalinist Russia did more.

[Politburo]

Under Lend-Lease there was no charge to the UK for materiel. The loan after the war had 2% interest and was repaid in 2006.

Re:Stalinist Russia did more.

[jedidiah]

> the USSR did more to win the war in europe than the USA.

The US dismantled the German war machine. That's nothing to casually sweep under the rug. Just ask anyone old enough to remember Dresden or the rest of Germany after the war.

PR stunt is for Bundesverfassungsschutz

[Anonymous Coward]

In the [url=http://www.taz.de/NSA-Technik-in-Deutschland/!123257/]taz (german newspaper)[/url] the operation is not attributed to the federal police but to the Bundesverfassungsschutz, an agency for surveillance of political extremists (it was founded to hunt for communists).
A PR stunt regarding them would make much more sense, as they were recently criticized for being unable to capture a trio of racist murders while financing the extremist right by paying many of them for undercover observation (which doesn't gather useful information).

Our government...

[Anonymous Coward]

... is just doing such stunts because elections are in a few weeks. It's to convince their retarded voter base that they are actually doing something.
I assume this was also done in accordance with the US government. Nothing more than a cheap fucking stunt but people realize this.

There has never been a better time for the pirates. Now that the whole tinfoil privacy thing turned out to be true there might be a few more people going that direction while the current government just IGNORE the problem or declares it to be solved by taking pictures of the fucking consulat.

Please, don't think that this is actually the only thing that we're capable of. It's just the most spectacular stunt they could come up with for the stupid masses.

Grammar police on patrol!

[Anonymous Coward]

A government spokesmen

I guess Multiple Man has a new job then?

KGB isn't the original name

[Anonymous Coward]

FSB née Cheka.

Law and Order

[rossdee]

There used to be a "Law and Order UK" it was created by the guy Dick Wolfe who created the US Law and Order shows.
They played a couple of seasons on BBC america, but I haven't seen it on for a long time.
One of the Crown lawyers was played by Freema Agyeman, best known for her role of Martha Jones (A companion of David Tennant Dr Who

meters?

[Anonymous Coward]

60 meters is 196.85 feet. not everyone uses meters.

i've never seen the word antennae before. I've seen antenna and antennas.

or hand it over to a bunch of amatuers...

[Thud457]

If you vote for a third party, the wrong lizard may get in

If every single voter in this country stopped trying to game the damn system, and voted their conscience, then the powerful would have to figure out some other way to manipulate the system.

Re:or hand it over to a bunch of amatuers...

[HiThere]

In a plurality rules system, if there are only three choices, then a candidate can get elected with 33.333334% of the vote. (Well, yeah, it's unlikely. But voting for the minority party you support most is, in effect, a vote for one of the top two parties that is least like what you want to support.)

This is why elections should require a majority. There are various such systems. None are perfect, but plurality rules is nearly the worst. My preference is for Condorcet Voting, but Instant Runoff Voting is much easier to explain, and so is probably a better real system. Basically you rank the candidates you find acceptable, and in each round the candidate with the lowest number of votes is eliminated. This is done with one actual vote (i.e., when you rank them). At the end of a round, if you top preference was for a candidate who has been eliminated, then your secondary (tertiary, etc.) choice is used instead when counting the votes. The rounds end when some candidate gets a majority.

Re:In contrast USA will send drone to their consul

[Anonymous Coward]

and turn in to dust. Bye, bye Germans, don't start fights with U.S.A

It is always amusing to read the ravings of a redneck cretin like you.